#linuxcnc Logs
Feb 09 2018
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:09 AM IchGucksLive: im iff 2 school BYe later
12:51 AM gloops: unclear whether steplen and stepgen are working in base periods or nano seconds
12:51 AM fragalot: the part of the documentation that talks about it in detail seems to state nano
12:53 AM gloops: I've added a few things to the spreadsheet to calculate max speed and stepper electrical calculations. (http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/StepTimingCalculatorPlus.ods)
12:53 AM fragalot: in your case i'd set the steplen & stepspace to 3000, and the dirhold and dirsetup you can probably go to 10000 without any impact on performance
12:53 AM gloops: or maybe earlier versions used base period
12:53 AM fragalot: probably
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: you guys get up too early :)
12:54 AM fragalot: CaptHindsight: too early? it's only 8am
12:54 AM gloops: strange stepconfig did not set figures in this region when the information was requested
12:54 AM Wolf__: only 2am here
12:54 AM CaptHindsight: 1am
12:54 AM fragalot: gloops: I've found the last stepconf wizard to be a tad buggy
12:55 AM fragalot: gloops: it took me 9 tries to enter the steps/mm parameter until I gave up & edited the hal manually
12:55 AM gloops: i will try the 3000 figures anyway and see what happens
12:56 AM fragalot: 3000 should be what's needed for your drive, according to it's manual it needs at least 2500, so with some reserve you end up at 3000
12:56 AM gloops: fragalot not great really if everyone trying linuxcnc gets dodgy stepgen
12:57 AM fragalot: there's also a bug in the wizard for the RTAI version for mesa
12:57 AM gloops: another point Y axis is the same step settings, seems fine, or maybe it will do a lot more, will see
12:57 AM fragalot: I had to edit the python file to even have it allow me to start up the wizard
12:58 AM fragalot: gloops: the steplen is not about "allowing it to do more"
01:01 AM fragalot: with 3000 steplen & stepspace, you can generate a 166kHz frequency
01:01 AM fragalot: at 400steps / rev, that's still going to allow you to generate a signal to run the steppers at 415rPM
01:01 AM fragalot: and since your steppers can't go that fast, there is no reason to reduce this signal
01:04 AM fragalot: same with the dirhold & dirsetup; according to pcw_mesa you can set those way up to 25000 without noticing much if any performance impact, so don't try to set it at super low values as there's no point
01:04 AM fragalot: CaptHindsight, Wolf__ why the hell are you still up?
01:04 AM fragalot: :D
01:15 AM Wolf__: well, this looks scary, I think I need one https://www.banggood.com/Drillpro-11_5-Inch-Chainsaw-Bracket-Changed-Angle-Grinder-Into-Chain-Saw-Woodworking-Tool-p-1230720.html?rmmds=category&cur_warehouse=CN
01:16 AM fragalot: I was almost going to ask if it came with a brake
01:17 AM Wolf__: lol
01:24 AM Wolf__: hmm seems the sprocket only has a 10mm hole so wouldnt work with anything I have
01:28 AM archivist: gloops, stop trying to make it fast, reasonable speed and consistent is a lot more useful (more torque)
01:30 AM gloops: yes i agree archivist, im not obsessed with speed or anything, the main thing thats brought me to look closer is the behaviour of the steppers, and seemingly unequal performance from the motors on the x and the one on the y
01:32 AM archivist: different current settings?
01:32 AM gloops: everything is the same
01:32 AM archivist: acceleration and speed still set to high/fast
01:32 AM fragalot: moar powah!
01:32 AM fragalot: I'm suspecting the power supply's maximum current is rated in chinamps
01:32 AM archivist: steppers lose torque rapidly with rpm, run slower
01:33 AM gloops: to get signnificantly higher speed will need stronger motors yes
01:33 AM fragalot: which are typically 20% lower than european amps :P
01:33 AM archivist: bigger steppers are slower than small ones
01:33 AM gloops: i do think something is still amiss with my setup though, maybe noise/step settings, or both
01:34 AM gloops: archivist bigger motors can hold higher gearing though
01:34 AM fragalot: gloops: at that point their "power" will be the same as the smaller stepper with lower gearing
01:37 AM gloops: but not the same as the smaller stepper with higher gearing
01:38 AM fragalot: well no, it's a balance.
01:38 AM gloops: the max rpm of the typical stepper seems to be around 200 rpm, 5mm screw - 1000mm/min
01:39 AM gloops: 2-1 gearing smaller stepper cannot hold, bigger stepper will, you will have the same cutting force available as the smaller stepper doing 1000mm
01:39 AM fragalot: according to my calculations, mine should be able to do around 2m/min with some reserve
01:39 AM gloops: these are doing 2m/m
01:39 AM archivist: people often accelerate too fast
01:39 AM gloops: they wont cut steel at that speed though
01:40 AM archivist: plenty fast enough
01:40 AM fragalot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwLE8sKGaiM <- fast acceleration just makes everything fall apart
01:40 AM gloops: and with 2 motor gantry, you need some reserve, it wont pay to push the motors to the limit
01:41 AM gloops: well consider that the top speed is an illusion without acceleration, because most moves are very small during cutting - top speed is never realised
01:41 AM archivist: reducing speed/acceleration is a way of getting headroom
01:42 AM gloops: yes its fine, it works! i will be cutting with this machine i think, i will spend a little longer looking at this issue though, not be finsihed for a while now anyway as too busy
01:45 AM gloops: remember a 40 inch x, 60 inch/min, 45 seconds to jog from one end to the other
01:49 AM fragalot: glass scale encoder + motor decoupler and a handle. :P
01:49 AM gloops: say 1 minute to travel X distance, 36 inch Y, 1/16 passes, to cut the entire area, 1 pass over = 8 hours
01:50 AM archivist: time also depends on endmill dia
01:52 AM gloops: we cannot choose tool diameter based on time requirements though?
01:53 AM fragalot: of course you can
01:53 AM archivist: wider passes
01:53 AM gloops: i am going to have to upgrade the x axis, at some point, to make practical use of the cutting
01:53 AM fragalot: assuming there are flat areas in the piece you're making, hog those out with a large cutter first
01:53 AM gloops: how can you pocket 1/4 inch with a half inch cutter?
01:54 AM fragalot: you don't, those pockets require a smaller cutter
01:56 AM gloops: its not often that such intensive work over the entire area is required anyway, but the figures demonstrate the importance of speed
01:56 AM fragalot: if your goal is speed, steppers are not for you.
01:56 AM fragalot: there is a reason they use servo's for high speed machines
01:57 AM gloops: i wouldnt have designed this machine with steppers, but i had some, ill use it anyway as is and evaluate it, if its worth another £400 ill change to hybrids on the X
01:58 AM fragalot: hybrids don't increase speed
01:58 AM archivist: go servo forget steppers for speed
01:58 AM fragalot: hybrids only increase reliability
01:58 AM gloops: they will increase power 3 times, which will hold the higher gearing
01:59 AM gloops: Y axis is doing 5000mm/min with stepper
01:59 AM fragalot: ha. US has gone to another shut-down >.>
02:00 AM archivist: do not read static torque numbers expecting them to stay similar at speed
02:01 AM gloops: thats party politics, opposition not acting in the interests of the nation, just to get themselves in office
02:02 AM gloops: well ive never had static torque so good as now when i have 2 motors only on the psu, a noticeable increase
02:02 AM fragalot: gloops: if that changed, then it's clear the power supply can't hold up with 3 :-)
02:02 AM Deejay: moin
02:02 AM fragalot: have you tried running the troublesome gantry with just the 2 motors connected?
02:02 AM fragalot: hey Deejay
02:03 AM fragalot: Awesome
02:04 AM fragalot: ebay powder coating system, £110, free postage
02:04 AM gloops: fragalot yes, there was an increase in possible speed, but some kind of snarling is happening once it gets faster, motors acting strange, not just stalling as normal, one running slow etc, change in sound
02:04 AM * fragalot looks at page
02:04 AM fragalot: £500 postage
02:04 AM gloops: the static torque went from - that should hold? to - that will definately hold
02:05 AM fragalot: gloops: that could be the signals from linuxcnc; change to the values that Ichs recommended.
02:06 AM fragalot: it could also be the power supplies can't swallow the back-EMF that the steppers are throwing out
02:06 AM fragalot: one way to solve that could be to have one of the gantry steppers per power supply, paired with either X or Z
02:13 AM gloops: changing step settings didnt solve the problem just tried it, in fact it seems worse, it is always the same motor though that acts suspiciously, back to swapping that motor/driver tommorrow
02:14 AM gloops: eliminate motor/driver from the equation
02:22 AM Wolf__: great, where to find a high temp probe
02:22 AM fragalot: how high temp
02:22 AM Wolf__: 1700c
02:23 AM fragalot: I typically use probes from Wika
02:23 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/eppendorf-tube-5ml-9/p-4669177 need to stuff plant fibers (e.g. cotton) into one of these with a consistent weight, ~1 gram
02:23 AM fragalot: though I believe that brand only makes them up to 1600
02:23 AM CaptHindsight: automate it
02:24 AM Wolf__: that sounds like a fun project CaptHindsight
02:24 AM CaptHindsight: fibers are in a bunch like big cotton balls
02:24 AM fragalot: Wolf__: Wika TC80 goes to 1700
02:25 AM CaptHindsight: compressing them into a shape like a cigarette filter would make it easy
02:25 AM CaptHindsight: and then slicing
02:25 AM fragalot: getting the density consistent should be fun
02:26 AM CaptHindsight: that is the main problem
02:26 AM fragalot: what's the tolerance on the weight
02:26 AM Wolf__: 1600c should do fine, I want to pid control a heat treat oven that tops out at 3000F
02:26 AM CaptHindsight: waiting for that answer, tighter the better, probably <5%
02:27 AM fragalot: CaptHindsight: so, a shredder followed by an extruder & cutter may be OK?
02:28 AM CaptHindsight: I have a feeling that every sample needs to be free from contamination from previous samples
02:28 AM * fragalot walks away
02:28 AM fragalot: :P
02:29 AM CaptHindsight: so any blade would have to be thoroughly cleaned before the next cut
02:30 AM CaptHindsight: I did find out that the average cotton ball is ~0.6grams
02:30 AM CaptHindsight: and pretty consistent
02:30 AM CaptHindsight: so whatever way they ball them is pretty consistent
02:31 AM fragalot: sick of waiting for a package to arrive? start running the shower.
02:31 AM fragalot: CaptHindsight: for the blade it may be easier to just have disposables
02:32 AM CaptHindsight: repackage the used blades, resell
02:32 AM CaptHindsight: only used once
02:32 AM fragalot: :D
02:34 AM CaptHindsight: comb fibers onto a tray with a load cell
02:35 AM CaptHindsight: robot hand scoops it up and packs it into a tube
02:37 AM CaptHindsight: fragalot: I'd start the shower step in part way and then check the door
02:37 AM fragalot: lol
02:37 AM fragalot: christmas is here, it's the 2nd delivery for my electrical panel
02:37 AM fragalot: still need a 3rd
02:38 AM CaptHindsight: or leave a not, In Shower Back in 4 minutes, cash reward for delivery people
02:38 AM CaptHindsight: not/note
02:38 AM CaptHindsight: that wait
02:39 AM CaptHindsight: my phone only rings when I have gloves on and in the middle of some timed process
02:41 AM fragalot: meh, I forgot to order endpieces for this flex chain
02:43 AM CaptHindsight: the chinese machines don't use them
02:43 AM fragalot: I'm not building a chinese machine though am I? :)
02:43 AM CaptHindsight: they usually use a screw through one side of the chain
02:44 AM CaptHindsight: what nationality will your machine be?
02:45 AM fragalot: mostly chinese, with some belgian flavoring
02:55 AM Crom: Got the BOB hooked up to the Y stepper for the 33686 (RF-31), 36v to the stepper, lab 18v PS to the BOB for 12-24v
02:58 AM Crom: got my 50v servo running at 1.6v turning a 30:1 gear box using a Lab 0-35v 10A power supply
03:02 AM Crom: Busy Busy day... put in a toilet. Put up a flourencent over the Logan 19" lathe and wired it in. Trimmed a cut off tool holder 0.065" to be able to get it on center
03:04 AM Crom: lots of lathe work. Making M12-1.75 pin wrench nuts to hold down tilting rotary table. The 1/2"-13 5/8" hold down kit isn't. it's M12-1.75 15mm slot
03:05 AM fragalot: :)
03:06 AM Crom: Didn't have M12-1.75 allen caps DOH MOTHER FLUFFER! yes I do... DOH!
03:06 AM Wolf__: lol
03:06 AM Crom: The allen caps holding down the cold rolled was all M12-1.75
03:07 AM Crom: They were all at the other end of the shop...
03:30 AM fragalot: Wolf__: whilst you're on banggood, you may want to pick one of these up: https://www.banggood.com/Mens-3D-Printing-Sexy-Tanga-Dog-Underwear-Low-Waist-Thongs-p-1261416.html?utm_design=114&utm_source=emarsys&utm_medium=Mail_VIP03_email&utm_campaign=newsletter%E2%80%94emarsys&utm_content=talis&sc_src=email_2838526&sc_eh=4657e1bc7fdf1fcc1&sc_llid=532041&sc_lid=110457698&sc_uid=wHOd5xMhb5
03:30 AM fragalot: for safety reasons
03:30 AM Wolf__: lol i’ll pass
03:30 AM fragalot: :d
04:40 AM fragalot: Anyone have any suggestions for my cabinet layout? (cable cutters not shown) https://imgur.com/a/mQIeq
04:41 AM fragalot: my idea is that all HF noisy signals will go from above the drivers all to the right down the same channel, and all sensitive signal will go below drivers to the left
04:41 AM fragalot: the only place where they'd join is near the VFD, which I am trying to keep as far away from the rest as possible, signal wise
04:44 AM XXCoder: is those big caps by drivers?
04:44 AM fragalot: yes, with a TVS diode on them
04:44 AM XXCoder: something to do with preventing undervoltage?
04:45 AM fragalot: and overvoltage when braking
04:45 AM XXCoder: nice
04:45 AM fragalot: the power supplies should be able to give 6,3A whilst the steppers require 6A
04:45 AM fragalot: so I want to bridge the time that these power supplies need to react to load changes :)
04:46 AM fragalot: Ideally i'd want the caps to be lower so they would stay cooler, but that would bring more noise to the signals
04:55 AM XXCoder: makes sense
05:11 AM archivist: my vfd is not in the same cabinet as the drivers
05:11 AM fragalot: archivist: yeah i'm a bit on the fence on that myself
05:11 AM fragalot: on one hand, I want the VFD in a cabinet to protect it from chips as this model has no IP rating worth mentioning
05:12 AM fragalot: on the other hand, I don't want that noise so close to the rest
05:13 AM archivist: I ran out of space for the vfd, the real reason
05:13 AM fragalot: haha
05:13 AM fragalot: I think I'll just bend up some alu plate if noise turns out to be an issue
05:14 AM fragalot: for now, I think this is going to be my general layout, once the machine is up & running I can do some temperature measurements to see how much CFM of cooling I need to put in it
05:14 AM fragalot: as I don't trust any of the efficiency ratings of the components
05:16 AM archivist: I have a mitsubishi drive which did interfere but that was cured by using a better BOB
05:20 AM archivist: I have one psu for all 5 drives
05:21 AM fragalot: I could find a 20A 60V power supply
05:22 AM fragalot: at least not for the price of these 3
05:23 AM jthornton: dang my chicken pi the /dev/root is 100% full wtf
05:23 AM archivist: I got lucky 20A Lambda supply turned up to max nearly 30v
05:24 AM fragalot: jthornton: logging?
05:24 AM jthornton: I thought that got cleaned up once a day but yea my chicken.service does log
05:25 AM fragalot: I don't get logging that "clears once a day" - what's the point?
05:25 AM fragalot: I'd much rather have a 2hr rolling log than a 24hr that clears just as I want to read it
05:25 AM jthornton: dunno just what I've read this morning trying to get the chicken door and light to work lol
05:25 AM fragalot: </minirant> :D
05:26 AM fragalot: showing hard outside
05:26 AM jthornton: for now I've expanded root but I can't reboot until sunrise or the light will shut off
05:29 AM fragalot: lol
06:18 AM Tom_L: chicken pi.... i thought Henry may have lost the battle there
06:19 AM jthornton: Henry is still in school
06:36 AM jthornton: I need to build a small led array with these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BVGIZIU
06:37 AM Wolf__: easy to just get ir replacements for security cams from ebay
06:37 AM jthornton: hmm
06:38 AM jthornton: https://www.amazon.com/Infrared-Illuminator-Security-Camera-Replacement/dp/B072P26SRZ
06:39 AM jthornton: I wonder what voltage and power you need for that
06:39 AM fragalot: easy enough to find out
06:40 AM Wolf__: 12v
06:40 AM Wolf__: printed right on it lol
06:40 AM fragalot: xD
06:42 AM jthornton: lol
06:42 AM jthornton: yep
07:05 AM Loetmichel: hmm, that albert should trim his moustache... joking aside: i am really surprised that it has printed THAT far and THAT good without ANY support... :-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16980&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
08:19 AM Loetmichel: hmmm... 2 hours to end of work... and the printer is at 62% of alfred... either i do overtimer today or it has to sit in standby for a week :-( (have a week off for burying ma fahter in law)
08:35 AM SpeedEvil: http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(18)30014-9
08:35 AM SpeedEvil: Here, we show that mantis stereopsis uses a fundamentally different computational algorithm from vertebrate stereopsis—rather than comparing luminance in the two eyes’ images directly, mantis stereopsis looks for regions of the images where luminance is changing. Thus, while there is no evidence that mantis stereopsis works at all with static images, it successfully reveals the distance to a moving target even in complex visual scenes with
08:35 AM SpeedEvil: targets that are perfectly camouflaged against the background in terms of texture.
08:48 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
08:49 AM IchGucksLive: so finaly weekend
08:58 AM fragalot: hey IchGucksLive
08:59 AM IchGucksLive: ;-)
08:59 AM fragalot: I just finished poking all the holes in my electrican cabinet's back panel
09:14 AM IchGucksLive: im off later !
09:37 AM uwe__ is now known as uwe_
11:18 AM Loetmichel: soo, last pic before i left the company. Had the printer running on bosses order. He said he will be in tomorrow and switch the printer off when done... IF there is anything left but some smoldering wires... or the Albert has a nice little frizzy hairdo because of some collissions ;) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16983&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
11:19 AM fragalot: hehe
11:19 AM fragalot: shame the hair isn't printed like that one lion model
11:20 AM IchGucksLive: good evening from germany
11:20 AM fragalot: Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTXPU2P-ElE
11:20 AM fragalot: Hello again IchGucksLive
11:21 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: i know the hairy lion
11:21 AM Loetmichel: actually the einstein bust is aviable with similar hair
11:21 AM fragalot: :P
11:21 AM Loetmichel: but it will be used as a headset stand.
11:21 AM Loetmichel: so the hair wouldnt be so great
11:22 AM Loetmichel: like this buddah i did a while ago: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16531&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
11:24 AM fragalot: :)
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: im off early carnavals party to go
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: bye
12:27 PM fragalot: https://imgur.com/gallery/5OOdO6x
12:47 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: finally a use for CNC glue guns!
12:49 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: FDM gone wrong?
12:50 PM * fragalot is working on his drawings for his build and is getting increasingly frustrated with his mouse double clicking >.<
12:50 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, here's another use: https://hackaday.com/2018/02/05/3d-printering-printing-sticks-for-a-pla-hot-glue-gun/
01:01 PM fragalot: you'd expect, given how much of a pain Fusion360 is to place a hole, that it would dimension holes correctly in the drawings without you manually having to add "M" or diameter symbols
01:04 PM gloops: are these drawing for cnc cutting fragalot or just to confirm a working design
01:07 PM fragalot: confirming design & manual working drawings, gloops
01:08 PM gloops: ahh, was going to say freecad is pretty quick, but i dont think the assembly bit is too great yet
01:09 PM gloops: artcam has announced it is to end, no more development, will be terminated 2021
01:10 PM gloops: https://www.autodesk.com/products/artcam/overview
01:11 PM fragalot: I'm just too used to Inventor 2017 spoiling me.
01:11 PM fragalot: you've already entered the hole data in the 3D model, so adding all the info like thread, pitch, tolerances, counterbore information, depth etc.. is all added with 1 click
01:12 PM fragalot: whilst in Fusion for some reason they decided that feature was no longer needed so you need to manually dimension them all or add as plaintext
01:13 PM fragalot: gloops: probably going to be replaced with something else
01:13 PM gloops: fragalot maybe assimilated into fusion - with the new fee
01:14 PM fragalot: possibly. I currently don't view Fusion as something I'd pay for professionally
01:14 PM fragalot: It's not bad, but it's not quite "I want to use this every day"
01:15 PM roycroft: i don't understand why anyone would pay for a subscription-only web-based application
01:16 PM gloops: i never took to it, keep threatening to have another look
01:16 PM fragalot: roycroft: sadly you'd be surprised.
01:16 PM fragalot: Personally, I think subscriptions are OK as trial runs, but there must be a perpetual license option.
01:17 PM roycroft: fragalot: i'm not saying that people don't
01:17 PM roycroft: huge numbers of people do that
01:17 PM roycroft: i just don't understand why
01:18 PM roycroft: when adobe went subscription-only people should have said "thanks, we'll stick with the perpetual license version we currently have or we'll move to another product"
01:18 PM roycroft: instead they said "that sucks, but ok"
01:18 PM roycroft: some of them just said "ok"
01:20 PM * roycroft is still running adobe cs 5, and will move to something else should he ever need to
01:22 PM gloops: you can still do that without any real loss of practical features, but over the years the gap between the old standalone apps and the cloud versions will widen, you will have to use them
01:22 PM gloops: unless open source keeps up
01:23 PM roycroft: or something else comes along
01:23 PM roycroft: people are sheep and let corporations walk all over them
01:23 PM roycroft: until that changes this kind of crap will continue
01:24 PM roycroft: i used to have no preference for open source or commercial software - i used what does the job best for me
01:24 PM roycroft: but now i'm really starting to dislike commercial software
01:24 PM roycroft: the corporate screws are turning a bit too hard for me these days
01:25 PM fragalot: I agree.
01:25 PM roycroft: and they don't need to
01:25 PM gloops: they failed to make crack immunity
01:25 PM roycroft: people just need to push back
01:25 PM fragalot: last upgrade we did from autocad suite 2015 to 2017 gave me one feature I like; slots.
01:25 PM fragalot: one feature. 25 grand.
01:25 PM * roycroft is still on autocad 2008 :)
01:25 PM gloops: half the world has photoshop
01:25 PM roycroft: that's the other thing
01:26 PM roycroft: for high end graphics/cad software (and other vertical market software) the pricing model is set for a small installed base with lots of money
01:26 PM roycroft: so it's really expensive
01:26 PM roycroft: which leads to lots of piracy
01:26 PM roycroft: if they would lower the price more people would purchase instead of pirate
01:27 PM roycroft: even disregarding the slim chance of getting busted and prosecuted, there is a lot of risk to pirating software
01:27 PM roycroft: it may or may not work properly
01:27 PM roycroft: it may contain malware
01:27 PM roycroft: it's often quite difficult to install
01:29 PM fragalot: yup
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: anyone have a PUMA robot arm they want to sell?
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: evil_someone had some cartesians
01:30 PM gloops: tbh most pirate copies probably dont get used by people who would have paid much for the app, games and movies probably lose the most
01:31 PM gloops: hes doing a scara up now
01:32 PM CaptHindsight: <1m reach
01:32 PM MarcelineVQ: adobe is on subscription model now anyway
01:32 PM MarcelineVQ: Or was last I was using those products
01:33 PM gloops: gimp does it anyway
01:33 PM fragalot: gimp is alright, but it's not a direct replacement for photoshop in my personal opinion.
01:33 PM gloops: the new generation of camera sensors might require more advanced editing software though
01:34 PM MarcelineVQ: it really isn't hehe
01:34 PM fragalot: I use Capture One for my camera
01:34 PM gloops: you can do a lot of what photoshop does with gimp though
01:35 PM fragalot: gloops: you can do a lot of what a spoon does with a fork too
01:35 PM gloops: what cant you do with gimp?
01:36 PM evilren: some special filter they like, or some built in brush, or they just arent used to the UI
01:36 PM evilren: for standard editing, theyre the same
01:37 PM evilren: i cant stand cs2 ui, honestly, and i do tons of different CAD programs
01:38 PM roycroft: a big problem is that so much software is monopolistic now
01:38 PM fragalot: gimp does not quite support the same color spaces that adobe supports, which makes my life difficult when I want to print things with the right color
01:38 PM fragalot: another issue is the monopoly that adobe has on the graphical industry so sharing files becomes a pain
01:38 PM roycroft: that makes it easy for the software purveyor to impose onerous licensing terms on its customers
01:39 PM evilren: theres a plugin for cmyk
01:39 PM fragalot: evilren: there is, but it's rudimentary
01:40 PM evilren: shrug, its not something i need to deal with, and if i did im sure there is some free tool that does it
01:41 PM evilren: if youre actually doing publishing or painting, you have an argument for photoshop, but for like, actually editing photos, gimp is fine, its pretty much same
01:41 PM fragalot: oh yeah totally agree with that
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Axis-Staubli-Faverges-RX90-Robot-Arm-RX-90-CR-6-Axis-6KG-load-rating/253355447616 $950 gadzooks
01:42 PM evilren: like, photoshop has more sliders to do cool shit with tablets
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: thats a $20K arm
01:43 PM gloops: if there were an open source cad/cam app that is to mastercam what gimp is to photoshop, a lot of diy cnc worries would be over
01:43 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: I wonder what is wrong with it, lol
01:44 PM gloops: photo apps are used by a lot more people than cam apps though, no demand
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: just missing the end of arm wrist, no controller
01:44 PM gloops: Capt - make one
01:44 PM fragalot: gloops: for that type of stuff I was actually quite happy with Vectric's supply of programs
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: it's always build vs buy
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: $950 is less than a days labor
01:45 PM uwe__ is now known as uwe_
01:45 PM gregcnc: gloops http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/
01:45 PM gloops: a 6 axis arm would be a challenge
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: can't build one in a few hors
01:46 PM gloops: Capt if youre on 1k a day plus dont be tight and get a new one bought!
01:46 PM fragalot: ._.
01:47 PM fragalot: https://imgur.com/gallery/fqbOx <- this is what CaptHindsight is really doing all day, gloops
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: gets controlled by LCNC so there's a bunch of customization
01:47 PM MarcelineVQ: for some reason I thought that would be the googley-eye chicken again
01:48 PM gloops: ill have a look at that gregcnc thanks
01:48 PM gregcnc: capt didn't you take a snowday today like all the millenials?
01:48 PM CaptHindsight: lol
01:48 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: up early today, B4 noon
01:49 PM gloops: i knew he did something to do with metal..
01:51 PM gloops: an arm would be a good long term project actually
01:51 PM gloops: but its been done
01:51 PM CaptHindsight: my average day at the shop https://youtu.be/h7VR7jw7L5c?t=2m30s
01:54 PM gloops: is this a cryptic message lol?
01:55 PM gloops: sparks, sparky, youre an electrician?
01:56 PM * fragalot is wondering if he should redesign his Z axis, or if 8 "access holes" are acceptable
01:56 PM gloops: access for what?
01:57 PM fragalot: bolts
02:03 PM gloops: i wonder what Ichs meant when he said you are falling into the trap as well fragalot, haha
02:08 PM fragalot: he meant that he thought i'd struggle with the same settings you are struggling with
02:09 PM fragalot: but I cheated and already did all that on a mock-up build; and since i'm not super concerned with speed I think I'll be alright. :)
02:12 PM gloops: i think he was hinting at building too heavy
02:12 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hermle-UWF600-Universal-Milling-Machine-CNC-TNC355-805-Hr/222830051832?
02:13 PM fragalot: There is no such thing. :D
02:14 PM fragalot: starting price $49k???
02:15 PM Wolf__: lol shipping not even included?
02:15 PM gloops: yeah, spindle tilts
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: how much new?
02:16 PM Wolf__: only 12” X travel? ick
02:18 PM CaptHindsight: https://trademachines.com/lots/5a6106fad78769a4ce86ab6f
02:18 PM CaptHindsight: only ~$8k
02:18 PM Wolf__: probably same cost after shipping
02:19 PM CaptHindsight: much bigger one for $12k https://trademachines.com/lots/5960a8f37700c653a6356bc1
02:21 PM gloops: one 1 shift, 8 hour day $100 an hour, that machine would gross $624 000 in 3 years
02:21 PM gloops: - total depreciation + operators wages and overheads power, maintenance etc
02:21 PM CaptHindsight: mafia payoffs
02:21 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: but does the $8k one come with the original orange CRT?
02:22 PM fragalot: gloops: if you think you're going to run a machine for 8 hours total each and every single day, you my good friend, are an optimist;
02:22 PM fragalot: (active spindle time)
02:23 PM FinboySlick: CaptHindsight: Do you really dress like that in your shop?
02:23 PM Tom_L: gloops did that stepper info help any?
02:24 PM MarcelineVQ: FinboySlick: he's probably more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4wpXSDRXk4
02:24 PM gloops: Tom nah it wasnt the problem, it may be better than what i had, but cant tell until i find out for sure if motor/driver ok, its acting weird for some reason
02:25 PM FinboySlick: MarcelineVQ: Haha, I expected the original, not the parody.
02:25 PM FinboySlick: Now I can't un-see it.
02:26 PM gloops: im going to switch motors and driver tommorrow and see if the problem migrates with it, if not will be looking at noise as the problem
02:27 PM gloops: anyone building a cnc machine needs some patience and tolerance of endless misplaced optimism lol
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: FinboySlick: yeah OSHA
02:28 PM Tom_L: just need to be methodical about it
02:29 PM Tom_L: usually when i trace a problem i start at the wrong end
02:32 PM gloops: true Tom, i have wasted too much time just messing about with different things with no real plan for finding the problem, ill just start again with the basics, eliminate faulty motor/driver, eliminate mechanical issue, etc
02:33 PM CaptHindsight: sometimes you don't see your own problem, like prooofreading
02:34 PM gloops: with noise i thought this was a problem that built up the longer the machine was powered, maybe i do have savage noises issues that manifest right away
02:34 PM gloops: yes true Capt
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: anyone ever cut cut natural fabrics with a laser?
02:51 PM fragalot: I used to cut a membrane with a fabric carrier on a laser
02:52 PM fragalot: worked well but that stuff killed the carbon filters really quickly
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: bio or polymer?
02:52 PM fragalot: :P
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: CF
02:53 PM fragalot: I never quite found out what the carrier was; manufacturer refused to tell us. so we changed manufacturers.
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: jym: ever laser cut cotton?
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC7CF45haJQ cutting fabric with a laser machine
03:04 PM fragalot: I'd imagine it cuts alright
03:06 PM fragalot: hm. I don't like my Z ballnut mount
03:07 PM fragalot: http://a360.co/2nkCWxK
03:21 PM FinboySlick: fragalot: I'm no fan of autodesk but I have to say that it's pretty impressive for an in-browser CAD.
03:21 PM fragalot: you mean the preview?
03:23 PM fragalot: I'm not really a "fan" either, but it's what I know
03:23 PM fragalot: :)
03:27 PM fragalot: it's a bit of a shame that the in-browser viewer doesn't support dynamic constraints
03:33 PM JT-Shop: stupid rpi the boot got full and I could not clear it
03:33 PM fragalot: rm -rf /
03:34 PM JT-Shop: what does that do
03:34 PM fragalot: deletes EVERYTHING.
03:34 PM roycroft: clri 1
03:34 PM fragalot: -r recursive, -f force, / root
03:34 PM roycroft: that's the fun way
03:34 PM roycroft: but it doesn't work on modern unix systems
03:34 PM roycroft: they're too idio-proofed :(
03:34 PM JT-Shop: I just flashed the sd card again
03:35 PM fragalot: roycroft: one of the gentoo devs that implemented that "fix" to avoid rm -rf / working wanted to show me
03:35 PM fragalot: so he showed it, fully convinced it would wokr, on a production server
03:35 PM roycroft: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/rsda count=1024
03:35 PM fragalot: his fix didn't work.
03:35 PM andypugh: I think it was the BOFH who suggested that command stood for “read mail, very fast”
03:35 PM roycroft: that would be "read mail - really fast" :)
03:37 PM roycroft: back in The Olden Days(tm), when i worked for a local freent, the guy who started the freenet had a bit of experience with unix, but not much
03:39 PM roycroft: he was being really clever one day and wrote a shell script that would allow the "nerds" (volunteer tech support folks) to delete users so that office staff did not have to page a sysadmin for such things all the time
03:39 PM roycroft: this script limited the users who could be deleted to regular members, not staff
03:39 PM roycroft: so one of the nerds decided to try it out
03:39 PM roycroft: and did "rmuser clif"
03:39 PM roycroft: clif being the guy who wrote the script
03:40 PM roycroft: the script did the rmuser bit brilliantly
03:40 PM fragalot: hurr.
03:40 PM roycroft: but the excluding staff bit not so well
03:40 PM roycroft: and clif was gone
03:40 PM roycroft: unfortunately, clif had put a bunch of critical system scripts in his home directory, and not in /usr/local where they belonged
03:40 PM roycroft: and the entire network melted down within a matter of minutes
03:41 PM fragalot: xD
03:41 PM roycroft: clif also did not understand nfs very well
03:41 PM roycroft: and when we got a second machine he decided to nfs mount all its filesystems on the first machine
03:41 PM roycroft: then he decided that he didn't want regular users on the first machine to access those files
03:42 PM roycroft: so he did chmod 700 mountpoint
03:42 PM roycroft: and wondered why the second machine suddenly stopped working
03:42 PM andypugh: I am sure that clif learned a lot from these mistakes and is now pretty good.
03:42 PM roycroft: um, no
03:43 PM andypugh: Oh.
03:43 PM fragalot: hahahh$-
03:43 PM roycroft: actually i ran into him last summer, having not seen him for 20+ years
03:43 PM roycroft: and he's still exactly the same
03:43 PM roycroft: the most brilliant script was his load balancing script
03:43 PM roycroft: we had two shell servers at the time
03:43 PM roycroft: and he decided that when folks dialed up and logged in they should be automatically redirected to the server with the lowest load
03:44 PM roycroft: the terminal servers were able to direct to a particular host
03:44 PM roycroft: so he wrote a script
03:44 PM roycroft: started out initializing the load values of each host to zero
03:44 PM roycroft: then his script parsed output of ruptime for each host
03:44 PM roycroft: to obtain the actual 1 minute load
03:44 PM roycroft: compared the output
03:45 PM roycroft: and logged into the terminal servers and set the appropriate default host accordingly
03:45 PM roycroft: that was fine
03:45 PM roycroft: until one of the shell servers crashed
03:45 PM roycroft: its load average was initialized to zero
03:45 PM roycroft: and ruptime failed
03:45 PM fragalot: xD
03:45 PM roycroft: so it was not changed
03:46 PM roycroft: everybody got to log into the crashed server
03:46 PM roycroft: and when i say he has not changed in 20 years
03:46 PM roycroft: when this script famously failed (in 1995 or so)
03:46 PM roycroft: he stood there
03:46 PM roycroft: scratched his beard
03:46 PM roycroft: and said "i *thought* it would work"
03:47 PM andypugh: That’s what beards are for.
03:47 PM roycroft: last summer i ran into him at the country fair - somehow i'd managed not to see him there all these years
03:47 PM roycroft: the vendor wireless network was not working
03:47 PM roycroft: he came by
03:47 PM roycroft: i explained what was going on
03:48 PM roycroft: and he said that if the chosen ssid were not available we should be able to connect using an alternate ssid, and that his authentication scripts would fail over to the alternatie
03:48 PM roycroft: so i got the alternate ssid from him, and tried to log in
03:48 PM roycroft: it failed
03:48 PM roycroft: he stood there, scratched his beard, and said "i *thought* it would work"
03:49 PM fragalot: Sounds like a fantastic guy to not have to work with on a daily basis.
03:49 PM roycroft: yeah
03:49 PM roycroft: when he first started voluneteering at the country fair he convinced them to set up a wireless network
03:49 PM roycroft: he spent weeks getting it ready
03:49 PM roycroft: finally got it all working
03:49 PM roycroft: on the first day of the fair it broke
03:50 PM roycroft: it had been advertised to the vendors, and they were all upset
03:50 PM roycroft: folks finally found clif
03:50 PM roycroft: he had disassembled the main uplink radio because he wanted to see what was inside it, and was having a hard time putting it back together
03:51 PM fragalot: ._.
03:51 PM roycroft: he did this like 3 hours before the fair started and 20,000 people showed up to buy stuff
03:51 PM roycroft: my only question is:
03:51 PM andypugh: Sounds like my long-lost twin.
03:51 PM roycroft: why is he still there and why to they let him go near anything?
03:51 PM roycroft: i guess that's two questions
03:52 PM roycroft: he's the guy i was talking about the other day who runs the local maker space
03:52 PM fragalot: because he's charismatic?
03:52 PM roycroft: so maybe now it makes more sense why i want to never go there
03:52 PM roycroft: charismatic he is not
03:53 PM fragalot: so he's got something on them
03:53 PM roycroft: passive-aggressive, obstructionist, highly opinionated, utterly socially inept geek is a kind description of his personality
03:53 PM Deejay: gn8
03:53 PM roycroft: it was an experience working with him :)
03:54 PM roycroft: rather, working at the same place he worked
03:55 PM FinboySlick: roycroft: Age is making me more and more like cliff.
03:56 PM roycroft: it's somewhat forgivable to age into that
03:56 PM fragalot: FinboySlick: socially inept?
03:56 PM roycroft: to start out in your 20s like that not so much
03:56 PM FinboySlick: And opinionated and obstructionist! ;)
03:58 PM FinboySlick: Well, either that... Or I'm still reasonable and it's those cloud-addicted idiots who have no clue.
03:59 PM MarcelineVQ: but don't you think it's better having everything important to you be somewhere else completely?
03:59 PM * roycroft hands finboyslick a big lart to use on them
03:59 PM MarcelineVQ: :>
03:59 PM FinboySlick: MarcelineVQ: I see you deal with the same people.
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: wasn't it Sun that came up with the whole cloud thing the first time?
04:01 PM FinboySlick: Project management and accounting for the whole company? There's this cool web site with a slick interface that just came out 2 weeks ago that can do it all for us.
04:02 PM FinboySlick: Sun was "The network is the computer." But they still had pretty solid UNIX roots to understand that "each tool should have one job and do it well"
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: and look at them now :)
04:04 PM roycroft: bell labs did a lot of tht stuff
04:04 PM roycroft: plan 9
04:04 PM roycroft: unix 10th research edition
04:38 PM JT-Shop: I need to cobble up a real quick rolling paint rack
04:39 PM * JT-Shop notes he has a pile of 1/2 rigid conduit
04:40 PM andypugh: Is the other 1/2 floppy?
04:42 PM JT-Shop: well the plastic conduit is rather floppy
04:59 PM nubcake is now known as nubcake_
04:59 PM nubcake_ is now known as nubcake
05:05 PM jym: CaptHindsight: Yes, and fleece too
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: jym: ever look at the cut ends under a microscope?
05:07 PM CaptHindsight: does it look singed even with the unaided eye?
05:07 PM jym: CaptHindsight: No. You can even "bleach" fabric too
05:08 PM CaptHindsight: they do it all the time in clothing manufacturing
05:09 PM CaptHindsight: I just never examined the ends that closely
05:09 PM jym: CaptHindsight: using the laser to remove the dye for the fabric
05:09 PM CaptHindsight: sure
05:09 PM CaptHindsight: dye breaks down pretty easily
05:10 PM jym: it doens't visually effect the fabric when doing so
05:34 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UmhUjZhNo LinuxCNC (EMC2) hexapod parallel robot machine tool
05:35 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPE3Qr-ECtQ LinuxCNC hexapod parallel robot 6 axis rapids
05:43 PM nubcake: wow, now that's pretty cool
05:43 PM nubcake: wonder what kind of payload this thing could handle
06:09 PM mozmck: seems like I've seen a way to show what the boot parameters of the currently running kernel are, but I can't find it now...
06:19 PM cradek: mozmck: /proc/cmdline
06:46 PM hazzy: I am thinking about buying/making a cheap ($200-$300) 3D printer, do you all have any suggestions?
06:46 PM hazzy: I have been looking at the Anet A8, and the Tevo Tarantula.
06:46 PM hazzy: I don't mind tinkering/modifying to get decent results, but are these even worth the cost, or should I just build from scratch?
06:50 PM mozmck: thanks cradek! For some reason I could not come up with a web search that turned that up.
07:38 PM pcw_mesa: mozmck: I do have ( finally) firmware for the input filter it still needs driver support but will get dragged in with our 7I97
07:44 PM mozmck: pcw_mesa: oh - you mean input debounce?
07:44 PM mozmck: great!
07:44 PM pcw_mesa: yeah
07:45 PM jym: pcw_mesa: I think you should add a double bounce feature =)
07:45 PM pcw_mesa: 1 to 32 pins raw FPGA pins or external mux for I/O expansion
07:45 PM jym: pcw_mesa: tell em it's a time saving feature =)
07:46 PM jym: pcw_mesa: saves wear and tear on buttons
07:46 PM jym: pcw_mesa: reduces potential carpel tunnel sunsdroym
07:46 PM jym: pcw_mesa: increases productivity
07:48 PM pcw_mesa: No individual times but you can select long or short times on a per input basis (and long +short times are programmable in scan times (say 100 usec))
07:51 PM jym: pcw_mesa: You ignoring my smartassery???
07:51 PM pcw_mesa: trying...
07:51 PM jym: pcw_mesa: Ok, carry on =)
07:53 PM Crom_: Just finished the first welder for the DCEN hack.. 150amp 1600v diodes 200,000uF 75v cap
07:54 PM Crom_: Need to find some more old PC power supplys to make the inductors
08:00 PM gregcnc: jym i found you a mill https://goo.gl/uu3nXz
08:01 PM jym: gregcnc: It's all yours, have fun with it
08:12 PM Crom_: damnbit where's my phone...
08:18 PM roycroft: call it and find out
08:40 PM Crom_: No phone to call it with...
08:41 PM roycroft: call a friend and have the friend call it :)
08:42 PM * roycroft likes still having tethered phones
08:45 PM Crom_: Messengered my wife, and 2 buddies
08:45 PM Wolf__: google voice
08:46 PM Crom_: phone found
08:47 PM Crom_: wife called
08:56 PM Crom_: bbiab rebooting winxp the "shudder" Mach3 machine
10:33 PM Cromaglious_: Dcen fluxcore ROCKS!
10:44 PM Cromaglious_: Going to add the transformer so the wire speed stays the same
11:07 PM Cromaglious_: Burned up a 4 flute 3/4 endmill. Going back to a 3/8 end mill, to finish trimming the bottom of cut off tool holder
11:12 PM Crom: The new black flux core welders use 6awg wire. to crimp 6awg wire I have to use the hydraulic crimper, takes 5 times longer.
11:59 PM Wolf__: hydraulic crimpers are fun...