#linuxcnc Logs

Jan 31 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:05 AM Wolf__: =)
12:27 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, my can of slip plate arrived the other day. Today I painted a plastic lightbulb with it and now I'm copper plating it.
12:28 AM pink_vampire: superrrrrrrrrrr
12:28 AM pink_vampire: pics!!!!!!
12:29 AM pink_vampire: jesseg:
12:32 AM jesseg: I'll definitely get more pics when it's done but let me post some now
12:32 AM pink_vampire: cool!!!
12:53 AM jesseg: Let's see if imgur will let me upload a video too:
12:53 AM jesseg: :P
12:54 AM pink_vampire: it convert it to gif
12:58 AM IchGucksLive: hi
12:58 AM fragalot: hey
12:58 AM jesseg: oh yikes a giff? well a 30 second HD video isn't going to work as a gif :P
12:59 AM fragalot: you may be surprised
12:59 AM fragalot: gifv format can handle quite a lot
12:59 AM fragalot: alternatively, webmv
12:59 AM jesseg: maybe gif has improved since the 8 bit days :D
12:59 AM IchGucksLive: newer browrs can take quite a big gif
01:00 AM jesseg: gifs used to be 8 bit color which is 3 3 2 bits for the colors
01:00 AM fragalot: gif still is
01:00 AM fragalot: gifv isn't
01:01 AM jesseg: Oh... I don't know anything about gifv
01:01 AM fragalot: https://help.imgur.com/hc/en-us/articles/208606616-What-is-GIFV-
01:04 AM jesseg: ok so the longer video they just took a screenshot of, and the shorter one they converted to a silent gifv..
01:04 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, https://imgur.com/a/Yghy0
01:04 AM jesseg: I'll upload the videos to actual video sharing site
01:06 AM pink_vampire: soooooooooooooooooo coooollll
01:06 AM IchGucksLive: PanicSkittle: east or west coast
01:07 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: you are on the right way
01:07 AM IchGucksLive: acid with blank fingers
01:07 AM PanicSkittle: what
01:08 AM IchGucksLive: he doesent like to live long
01:08 AM PanicSkittle: like
01:08 AM PanicSkittle: where am I
01:08 AM PanicSkittle: or which is better
01:08 AM jesseg: you guys are funny.
01:08 AM IchGucksLive: im in germany :-)
01:08 AM PanicSkittle: let me tell you a quote by snoop dogg, IchGucksLive
01:08 AM IchGucksLive: jesseg: 6V is best for coding
01:08 AM PanicSkittle: "west coast, motherfucker, it's the only way"
01:09 AM PanicSkittle: so jot that down
01:09 AM jesseg: IchGucksLive, my power supply is a constant current constant voltage. It was running in constant current mode below 4.2v.
01:09 AM roycroft: as i like to say
01:09 AM roycroft: some folks live on the right coast
01:09 AM roycroft: but i live on the correct coast
01:09 AM fragalot: jesseg: you made a bath bomb? :P
01:10 AM pink_vampire: this my progress for today https://i.imgur.com/4cBkycO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1vRrvwd.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PfLXPOf.jpg https://i.imgur.com/5pSwTPn.jpg
01:10 AM jesseg: IchGucksLive, so my plating solution isn't that strong. Mostly water and copper sulfate.
01:10 AM IchGucksLive: jesseg: now crome or silver
01:10 AM fragalot: jesseg: IchGucksLive is german. german humor is no laughing matter.
01:10 AM jesseg: IchGucksLive, LOL.. no. I mean I'd love to but I'd rather not reach into those plating solutions.
01:10 AM jesseg: fragalot, I have no idea what a bath bomb is...
01:11 AM fragalot: jesseg: fizzy ball you throw in the bath that bubbles & smells nice
01:11 AM jesseg: fragalot, oh..
01:11 AM IchGucksLive: im off got to do anothere 25 small milles and making parts today with new students
01:11 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, here's video of me dropping the ball: https://videoflier.com/movies/1517382537187262973877
01:12 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, nice looking brass part... Even soldered it I see :D
01:16 AM jesseg: Is that for coolant or something?
01:18 AM jesseg: blah, I think my phone dumps active TCP connections (and hence video uploads) when the screen sleeps :P
01:18 AM jesseg: second longer video is being uploaded again...
01:19 AM jesseg: Put phone on USB to keep it from going to power save this time.
01:19 AM pink_vampire: it is for mist cooling
01:20 AM pink_vampire: i was....
01:20 AM jesseg: oh the venturii or whatnot?
01:20 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: you are funny guy!
01:20 AM pink_vampire: without
01:20 AM jesseg: Not sure what's so funny about me but OK :P
01:23 AM pink_vampire: the way you say "it was..."
01:23 AM jesseg: oh yeah I wasn't sure what else to say at that point :P
01:26 AM pink_vampire: lol
01:29 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, OK here's video with better view of the plated object https://videoflier.com/movies/1517383252059304634823
01:29 AM jesseg: low res, later when it's done converting it'll be available in HD
01:32 AM pink_vampire: I think you need to scrubs the slipplate before the coating, so it will remove the none conductive film
01:35 AM jesseg: Could be
01:37 AM pink_vampire: 2 holed and I'm done for today!
02:02 AM Deejay: moin
02:08 AM pink_vampire: hi Deejay
03:24 AM Sabotend_ is now known as Sabotender
04:04 AM gloops: right having these ballscrews off again to ad just shimming, funny i could probably get this running pretty quick but doesnt seem to be any rush now its almost there heh
04:05 AM gloops: ballscrew nuts
04:08 AM archivist: stop fiddling and start cutting
04:13 AM gloops: nah, noticed things tightened up a bit when i put the last bolts in the rails, i know they can be that bit more free running, may as well set off right
04:13 AM gloops: i dont know how free any of this should be so just going for - very free running
04:16 AM jthornton: morning
04:18 AM gloops: found that limit switches cannot be mounted anywhere quickly to the frames, all had to be stuck on a seperate plate
04:20 AM gloops: realistic estimate, it should all be moving for/at thr weekend, should be cutting over the week
04:20 AM gloops: next week
04:21 AM archivist: sounds like a public sector finance estimate :)
04:21 AM gloops: i reckon i may well find that i have messed about with these screws and stuff too much and theres plenty of power to spare, i dont want another false start though where it kicks up and isnt any good
04:22 AM archivist: you can waste too much time, where using it will find important faults if any
04:23 AM gloops: true yes
04:23 AM gloops: you are right im trying to find faults that can only really be found when its under motor power
04:27 AM gloops: have had motors powered up and belt on, tbh it doesnt seem like a great deal of force is required to turn the screw and make the motor miss a step
04:27 AM gloops: i think the drivers are set to sit at half amps though when motors idle
04:38 AM XXCoder: hey pink_vampire
05:11 AM archivist: gloops, I try to switch off that holding current "feature"
05:21 AM jthornton: lost all my window controls on this linux pc wtf
05:26 AM gloops: well thats done, bit of steel tape for shimming, 20% better
05:27 AM XXCoder: shimmering
05:28 AM archivist: toy in a bit https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRIDGEPORT-ADCOCK-SHIPLEY-SERIES-1-VERTICAL-MILL-MILLING-MACHINE-3-PHASE/292422126982
05:30 AM XXCoder: pretty cheap so far.
05:32 AM gloops: go for double that
05:34 AM gloops: archivist stops motors getting so hot - the idling feature
05:35 AM archivist: I know the reason, I want my motors to stay in position!
05:35 AM gloops: hmm, might have to switch it off on the z now yes
05:36 AM gloops: no reason x and y should move
05:36 AM archivist: cutting forces
05:36 AM gloops: it goes full amps when it starts cutting though
05:37 AM gloops: that missing allen key becomes a problem now, cant fit pulleys with allen keys, will ise screws, can get more force on anyway
05:37 AM gloops: that piddling allen key cant put much torque on
05:38 AM gloops: just the pulleys on X and then, no other reason not to hitch PC up
05:39 AM Tom_L: gloops i agree with archivist, stop fiddling and start cutting
05:39 AM archivist: hehe
05:39 AM gloops: its just that final look over it haha
05:39 AM Tom_L: or in merican terms.... git r dun
05:40 AM Tom_L: pfft, stop admiring it and put it to work
05:40 AM gloops: you change a cyclinder head on a car, theres always that moment of doubt before you turn the key, did i tighten this, did i put the oil in etc
05:41 AM Tom_L: the smoke and flames will assure you you didn't
05:41 AM gloops: bloody ell looked out window 2 minutes ago bright sun, looked again - howling snow
05:42 AM Tom_L: got part of the way covers on last night
05:42 AM archivist: was thinking about fitting a window today
05:43 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Way_Cover.jpg
05:44 AM gloops: not got them all done yet archivist
05:44 AM gloops: run any complete job on it yet Tom?
05:44 AM archivist: I just wait for nice weather
05:44 AM Tom_L: no not yet
05:44 AM Tom_L: still tweaking and finishing it up
05:45 AM gloops: i reckon moving any day, another week before cutting
05:45 AM gloops: it took me a week to get the spindle working last time lol
05:45 AM * archivist drives up and presses the on button
05:47 AM gloops: i still cant work out how a simple frame and a bit of fitting took this long
05:49 AM archivist: too many cups of tea
05:54 AM jthornton: well that was painful to loose your desktop manager
05:54 AM XXCoder: ouch. need tp retighten that up
05:58 AM jthornton: well I guess I need to connect the monitor to the RPi zero and see why it is not connected to the wifi be back in a bit
05:59 AM Tom_L: 38F
05:59 AM Tom_L: seems to be warming up some
05:59 AM XXCoder: Tom_L: here spring is here already
06:01 AM jthornton: wow a 79.5g egg that must have hurt
06:03 AM jthornton: well crap I don't have a mini HDMI cable...
07:37 AM XXCoder: archivist: won it?
07:38 AM archivist: not bidding
07:38 AM XXCoder: oh
07:38 AM XXCoder: it ended up at 695. pretty good deal
07:39 AM gloops: not bad
07:41 AM archivist: no space left in garage!
07:41 AM gloops: bad time to have an auction end, middle of working day, better to have them end at the weekend or evenings
07:44 AM gloops: router goes for 4.6k bridgeport mill 700
07:44 AM gloops: 6 times less
07:45 AM archivist: some silly sellers and silly buyers, pounce on the cheap stuff if you have space :)
07:46 AM gloops: should be buying bridgeports to make router parts
07:48 AM gloops: routers probably get high bids from people who have tried to make them lol
07:48 AM archivist: I think it is more trade v home user
07:49 AM archivist: the mill is too old for trade and too big for home
07:49 AM gloops: yeah i think that router i posted was being sought by commercial bidders, it was a nice machine, proven as came from an established woodwork compnay
07:51 AM XXCoder: buy mill to make routers to make lathe
07:51 AM archivist: just cleaning my watch list, I got a dual channel bit of HP test gear at 200 ish, the single channel I was watching went for 425
07:51 AM gloops: trouble with that bridgeport, for trade you have to pay someone to stand at it all day - if you can find someone who knows how to use it
07:52 AM gloops: if youre getting orders to cover that you may as well buy a better mill
07:53 AM XXCoder: work just gave away lathe away for free
07:53 AM XXCoder: manual one, pretty abused and ancient
07:53 AM gloops: manual?
07:53 AM gloops: yeah
07:53 AM gregcnc_: manual machines hardly make money today
07:53 AM XXCoder: not surpised on abuse part, it was from utah division
07:53 AM XXCoder: man, that division abused stuff
07:54 AM archivist: but some work is faster on a manual
07:54 AM gregcnc_: no doubt
07:54 AM gloops: with a fast turner
07:54 AM XXCoder: one of rocks from there was bumpy and pitted till it was cleaned and certified.
07:54 AM gregcnc_: that doesn't mean there is enough work out there to eran a living
07:54 AM gloops: on £20 an hour
07:55 AM gregcnc_: leaves you with enough for tea?
07:55 AM gloops: last time i looked there were 0 ads on job site for turners or mill operators
07:56 AM XXCoder: its usually included into "all around guy" or something
07:56 AM XXCoder: for example maintance level where guy makes own parts
08:31 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.space.com/39208-super-blue-blood-moon-guide.html
08:49 AM gloops: lol, its a full moon again i see, it rarely passes now without being some kind of super-hyped event
08:51 AM skunkworks: lunar elipse here
08:51 AM skunkworks: eclipse
10:13 AM gloops: well my Y axis is working ok
10:15 AM gloops: motor well strong enough, cannot force missed step, speed dont know as not set scale properly just a quick play, but can go reasonably quick, motor maxes out befor screw vibrates
10:17 AM gloops: also, very quite, i expected a lot of rattle from ballscrews - none
10:17 AM gloops: quiet
10:17 AM jesseg: cool beans there gloops
10:18 AM gloops: yeah, quite relieved i hadnt geared up too much, could have gone 3-1 easy
10:19 AM gloops: the last question mark is the X axis, 2 motors
10:23 AM gloops: do it tommorrow now, proper config required
10:32 AM gloops: max speed it will give me is 5400mm/min
10:32 AM jesseg: that's not too shabby
10:34 AM gloops: 210 ipm, slightly less than i was hoping for but within my estimates, i can live with that
10:50 AM MacGalempsy_: morning folks
11:05 AM gloops: ahh no..considerably more speed
11:06 AM gloops: 10m/min
11:06 AM gloops: almost 400 ipm, hey thats a result!!!
11:10 AM gloops: or could be scale error haha, leaving while tommorrow
11:57 AM * fragalot hands Wolf__ another _
12:05 PM Crom_: my problem is always step generation speed. Trying to find a computer that'll return stupid fast step generation speeds
12:05 PM gregcnc_: use mesa
12:06 PM fragalot: is mesa not also limited in a way by how "realtime" your pc is?
12:06 PM fragalot: asking for a friend
12:06 PM Crom_: gregcnc_: got them, haven't installed them, still trying to get mesasflash figured out
12:06 PM gregcnc_: only if it's superbad
12:07 PM gregcnc_: why do you need to flash it?
12:07 PM Crom_: got a PCI mesa interface and an external daughter board and 2 ethernet 7i92m
12:08 PM Crom_: IP# for one
12:09 PM Crom_: Might even be using the smoothieboard for a bit
12:09 PM pcw_home: Typically you can just chose the default IP address ( ) or the EEPROM IP address ( )
12:10 PM pcw_home: usually no need to change the EEPROM IP address ( unless you have multiple Ethernet cards )
12:10 PM Crom_: and my bench is a bit cluttered... been cleaning it to get more space
12:11 PM fragalot: pcw_home: he did just mention he was using 2 cards
12:11 PM Crom_: \um 2ea 7i92m is multiple ethernet cards
12:11 PM pcw_home: Not many people use 2 at once
12:12 PM Crom_: getting for testing and setup, final installation is one card per computer
12:12 PM pcw_home: ( a 7I80 DB is cheaper than 2X 7I92 )
12:12 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:12 PM fragalot: Crom_: can you not use the dhcp feature?
12:12 PM fragalot: hi IchGucksLive
12:13 PM IchGucksLive: the 7i92 can drive 2 7i76 with 48io eatch
12:13 PM Crom_: fragalot: maybe... I haven't had time or bench space... I still have 2 cars down, and my wife wants her bathroom finished
12:13 PM fragalot: lol
12:13 PM pcw_home: our Ethernet cards cant use DHCP ( DHCP cannot be realtime )
12:13 PM Crom_: Also building 4 weld positioners as well
12:14 PM fragalot: pcw_home: I thought the 7i76e could if you used BOOTP?
12:14 PM pcw_home: yes you can use bootp
12:14 PM Crom_: we're keeping the 2 best positioners and selling the rejects
12:14 PM pcw_home: on all our Ethernet cards
12:16 PM Crom_: since they are stepper based, they'll also be usable in 4th and 5th axis work
12:53 PM gloops: super blue blood moon
12:53 PM miss0r: Its raining and cloudy here at the moment..
12:54 PM fragalot: same here
12:54 PM fragalot: can't see anything
12:54 PM roycroft: same here
12:54 PM roycroft: and this was the first super blue blood moon since 1983
12:54 PM roycroft: there is no full moon in february this year, btw
12:54 PM miss0r: TO THE ROCKET SHIP!
12:55 PM miss0r: I'm running around like a chicken without a head, trying to gather all the tools'n instruments to do a proper job of installing a pretty sizeable DRO tomorrow
12:55 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us.zoom-160.mp3
12:55 PM roycroft: ack
12:55 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/zoom-160.mp3
12:55 PM fragalot: I thought NASA was going to provide a nice live feed but it's something else atm
12:55 PM roycroft: better :)
12:56 PM gregcnc_: didn't it happen this morning?
12:56 PM roycroft: yes
12:56 PM gloops: 1869 last time i think
12:57 PM miss0r: what a fscking pain... Here it was a beautiful clear sky last night
12:57 PM fragalot: gregcnc_: that depends on what your definition of morning is :P
12:57 PM fragalot: miss0r: wasn't even clear yesterday here
12:58 PM roycroft: npr said 1983 this morning
12:58 PM fragalot: was clear when I got home, ate food, and decided to go on a stargazing walk but it was completely overcast by the time I got out the door
12:58 PM roycroft: you just said 1869
12:58 PM roycroft: newsweek say 1866
12:58 PM miss0r: fragalot: pop quiz me! :] category: tools needed for installing a large DRO
12:58 PM gregcnc_: depends where in the world you are
12:58 PM roycroft: at this point i can only say "it's been a while"
12:59 PM fragalot: miss0r: long reach mag base?
12:59 PM fragalot: wait why am I answering
12:59 PM miss0r: so i can say 'check'
12:59 PM fragalot: haha
12:59 PM miss0r: so: check
01:00 PM miss0r: (just trying to figure out if I have thought of it all)
01:00 PM fragalot: miss0r: spare sharp taps & tools to pry out the one you'll inevitably break on top of the ladder?
01:00 PM miss0r: hehe, check & check
01:00 PM fragalot: level
01:00 PM miss0r: check
01:01 PM fragalot: shims
01:01 PM roycroft: just schelp an edm up the ladder to peck away at the broken taps
01:01 PM miss0r: Ahhh.. good idea. I forgot the shims
01:01 PM roycroft: schlep, rather
01:01 PM fragalot: miss0r: can't install a DRO without shims & piles upon piles of brackets
01:02 PM miss0r: fragalot: well, the 'kit'(if complete) should fit the exact same mill
01:02 PM fragalot: "if complete"
01:02 PM miss0r: indeed
01:03 PM fragalot: not much else I can think of, other than the generic tools you'd use for anything else
01:03 PM fragalot: something to blow the chips out of the tapped holes
01:03 PM miss0r: It was removed from an identical model in germany. So who knows. Anyway; if I need some larger brackets, I won't be able to shim my way out of that. I will have to make a drawing and take it home to the mill
01:03 PM miss0r: canned air, check
01:04 PM gloops: clean cloths/cleaning roll
01:04 PM fragalot: headlight
01:04 PM miss0r: gloops: That is something they have readily available there
01:04 PM miss0r: fragalot: check
01:04 PM gloops: 60 Capstan full strength tipped
01:05 PM fragalot: miss0r: extended tap handle, just in case?
01:05 PM fragalot: miss0r: bottle of glenfiddich
01:05 PM miss0r: gloops? what ? :)
01:05 PM miss0r: fragalot
01:05 PM miss0r: and a pair of blindfolds and a single ciggarett ?
01:06 PM gloops: capstan were strong cigs lol
01:06 PM miss0r: lol
01:06 PM fragalot: miss0r: cable ties, tiny brackets to mount cables neatly
01:06 PM miss0r: I'll be sure to bring an extra pack, along with the whiskey - just to manage the shakes
01:06 PM gloops: nobody smokes these days though
01:06 PM miss0r: fragalot: check & check
01:07 PM * miss0r smokes
01:07 PM miss0r: I also collected a good assortment of allenhead metric screws
01:07 PM gloops: if its not far away and its a stressful job it sometimes helps to get away for 10 minutes, just got to get something
01:08 PM fragalot: no wonder your cnc isn't done yet gloops :D :D
01:08 PM fragalot: if it's not going well; POWER THROUGH! break those taps! drop the drill!
01:08 PM gloops: its nearly done, had y running
01:09 PM miss0r: hehe. I'm with gloops on this one. The list of mistakes I've caught before they happened because I went out for a smoke is quite long
01:09 PM Tom_L: woot! it's alive..
01:10 PM gloops: around 210 ipm, just in the lower end of my estimate, im pretty happy with that
01:10 PM Tom_L: i could jack up the amps on mine and get more but i'm pretty happy where it is
01:11 PM Tom_L: iirc it's ~160-180ipm now
01:11 PM gloops: i wont cut at that anyway, but trying to hold the z axis while its moving, theres plenty of power at that speed, so, so far so good
01:11 PM Tom_L: that's running the 5A steppers at 2.5A
01:12 PM gloops: ive not checked what mine are set at, just a quick play on a quick config, ill have a proper look over the next couple days
01:12 PM Tom_L: i let it idle while i was working last night and the steppers were ice cold
01:13 PM gloops: these get kinda warm when idling but not hot, drops to half amps on idling
01:13 PM Tom_L: not much more than room temp
01:14 PM gloops: mine are warmer than that
01:14 PM Tom_L: mine probably will be to if i change the resistor in the drivers
01:15 PM gloops: ive seen where people rig fans up on them but doesnt seem necessary atm
01:15 PM Tom_L: this is why i looked for the largest nema23 i could find
01:16 PM gloops: 425oz were the biggest i could find, iver seen bigger now, 570 oz?
01:16 PM Tom_L: that's what i have
01:17 PM fragalot: what you need is a co2 injection cooler on them so you can run them at superconductor temps
01:17 PM fragalot: watch your cnc FLY
01:17 PM gloops: no good they wont spin any faster
01:17 PM fragalot: why not?
01:17 PM gloops: why would they?
01:18 PM fragalot: because you can change the magnetic field much faster and harder
01:18 PM Tom_L: the amps may not but the voltage would
01:18 PM gloops: this is a 200ipm machine really anyway, if i put faster motors on the screws will rattle, it is what it is, its all balanced for that kind of performace, motors screws, bearings etc
01:19 PM Tom_L: that's as good as my bud's first fadal
01:19 PM fragalot: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988RScI...59..649M
01:19 PM gloops: for carving pine the optimum speed is 12 ipm, heh
01:20 PM fragalot: gloops: but that's cutting speed, which is dictaed by the material
01:20 PM fragalot: where you really save is in the waste rapids
01:20 PM gloops: good toolpaths, there are no long rapids
01:20 PM IchGucksLive: gn8
01:21 PM fragalot: lots of short rapids are still rapids
01:22 PM gloops: cant acclerate to any speed over short moves anyway
01:24 PM fragalot: you could if you had superconducting steppers :P
01:24 PM Cromaglious_: Just got a Wyse Dx0d ITX 2GB RAM 8GB MLC SATA module, has some type of Linux on it.. It's getting Debian
01:24 PM Cromaglious_: $5 couldn't go wrong
01:25 PM gloops: see if i can get the x going tommorrow, if that works ill be happy enough, this isnt a 5k build its some old box section and some lower end chinese hardware and electronics, lol, if its reasonable accurate and runs around 150-200 ipm ill consider ive done ok
01:25 PM fragalot: you have
01:25 PM fragalot: my build is already at 4k and all I have is a box of bits
01:26 PM gloops: can see where all the money is in here!
01:26 PM Tom_L: gloops that's kinda how i feel about it
01:26 PM fragalot: gloops: was*
01:27 PM gloops: fragalot you need some work for the machine to be spending that kind of money
01:28 PM fragalot: if people ask, I will provide, but i'm not actively looking
01:28 PM fragalot: just like with the rest of my machines
01:28 PM fragalot: the reason i'm spending a fair amount is because i'm sick of my old cnc
01:29 PM fragalot: I have lost more money in frustration alone with that thing
01:29 PM gregcnc_: old berger lahr docs I have show 6Nm 3 phase steppers
01:32 PM gloops: i wont build another 3 axis router, unless i was going to use it for income, id build a full size full spec machine
01:36 PM fragalot: https://imgur.com/gallery/kU6Lj <- neat.
01:37 PM gloops: used for knight driving...
01:37 PM MarcelineVQ: until the links get full of rock chips, is rubber really that heavy <_<
01:38 PM Tom_L: is that to replace the shuttle tires?
01:38 PM Tom_L: :)
01:39 PM fragalot: Tom_L: rovers I would imagine
01:39 PM Tom_L: yeah i was kidding
01:40 PM Tom_L: i've seen shuttle tires and they're nothing like that
01:40 PM gloops: i doubt theyll get onto the market for road cars - they dont need replacing often enough
01:40 PM MarcelineVQ: hmm, lunar rovers already had that kind of tire appearantly.
01:40 PM fragalot: gloops: absolutely NO traction on asphalt may be a bigger issue
01:41 PM gloops: well, german POWs built some roads where i live, all those years ago - concrete, theyre as good now as when they were laid
01:42 PM fragalot: we've got concrete roads in quite a lot of places too
01:42 PM fragalot: the issue is not that they are bad
01:42 PM fragalot: the issue is the utilities companies can't dig them up & repair them like they can with asphalt
01:42 PM gloops: you could make the mail to grip
01:43 PM gloops: its stupid to bury pipes anyway, its a con to keep contractors awash with taxpayers cash
01:44 PM gregcnc_: what is the alternative?
01:44 PM gloops: have utilities channels with removable covers
01:44 PM Wolf__: overhead gas lines would be cool
01:44 PM Tom_L: freeze
01:45 PM gloops: they have them in some countries
01:45 PM Wolf__: water lines above frost line might be a problem tho
01:45 PM fragalot: gloops: that makes it easier for unauthorized access
01:45 PM Cromaglious_: run pipes in vaults, they can double as fall out shelters
01:47 PM gloops: theyve just resurfaced a road near me, 2 000 000, 2 weeks later, 3 vans some cones and a big hole
01:48 PM MarcelineVQ: sounds like shitty conctracting, you need proper under-road with a concrete road as well
01:48 PM CaptHindsight: yes, they usually wait until the road has been resurfaced before beginning repairs on under road utilities
01:49 PM MarcelineVQ: in fact the topping of a road is almost an afterthought, compared to the work that should go into a base
01:49 PM MarcelineVQ: oh I thought you were saying there's a pothole forming after some vans used the road hehe, you're talking about utilities?
01:50 PM gloops: Marcel when a water contractor digs a hole in the road, they never backfill it properly, they just lob the stuff back in and skim over the top, compresses very quick, then you got a hollow that fills with water
01:51 PM CaptHindsight: here in the springtime they just drive down the road and toss blacktop with a shovel into the pits and let the vehicles pack it down
01:51 PM MarcelineVQ: CaptHindsight: that's the worst :(
01:51 PM MarcelineVQ: coldpatching should be a crime
01:52 PM CaptHindsight: this assures that your vehicle gets a fresh undercoating of tar
01:52 PM gloops: the roads here are virtually third world now
01:52 PM CaptHindsight: no warning either
01:52 PM MarcelineVQ: they put the effort in to blow some fire on the patchs they do here, but it's still just coldpatching, just the top is smoothed slightly
01:52 PM fragalot: there used to be these 5 mile long black lines with puddles at intersections here
01:53 PM fragalot: presumably from a tar truck that had a valve opened up
01:53 PM fragalot: absolutely hilareous.
01:53 PM fragalot: you can see the point where it ran out of tar too
01:53 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: I think that is part of a contest to see what tires leave the longest imprint on the surface
01:54 PM MarcelineVQ: a local farmer got tired of the potholes in front of his market area and fileld them with concrete, that section of road is outlasting everything in the area
01:54 PM CaptHindsight: also free undercoating for the next cars that follow
01:54 PM MarcelineVQ: it wasn't a very good job either
01:55 PM fragalot: lol
01:55 PM CaptHindsight: glad to see that all these guberment road services are learning from each other, seems very consistent
01:55 PM fragalot: there are no government road services here
01:55 PM fragalot: only private companies
01:55 PM fragalot: well, one company
01:57 PM MarcelineVQ: best of both worlds here, municipal services done by bid. at least government would have money to waste, minicipal pretends it doesn't, and no bid contract is going to go that extra-mile
01:57 PM fragalot: xD
01:57 PM fragalot: it did change a lot a few years ago
01:58 PM fragalot: basically, they passed a law that any public service work must be guaranteed for at least 3 years
01:58 PM MarcelineVQ: such a law would bankrupt this entire region hehe
01:58 PM fragalot: so if something goes sideways within 3 years, the company that did it, assuming they still exist, must repair it
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: they widened and completely rebuilt a stretch of road here and 1-2 years later it's like driving down a washboard
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: took them 2 years to rebuild it
02:02 PM gloops: my mrs bought a ford ka for going to work, cheap on juice, tyres etc, the suspension is all rubber joints, it shook it to bits in a year, the whole car was like a badly athritic 20 year old cart horse
02:03 PM fragalot: that's the best description yet of a fork k
02:03 PM fragalot: I messed that up :(
02:03 PM fragalot: ford ka.
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: archivist: https://medium.com/@aerosint/how-multi-powder-deposition-will-transform-industrial-3d-printing-fa7c83631091 I don't see how two rollers selectively lay down powders on each layer.
02:04 PM fragalot: it is an interesting concept isn't it
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: Either the description is inaccurate or they aren't showing everything.
02:04 PM fragalot: I may go talk to them
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: plus their resolution is really low
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*7o87vCc1CoDePO_blz6rpg.png
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: edges are really jagged
02:05 PM skunkworks: mast
02:06 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: that's probably due to the dosing system for the powder
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: they don't seem to be doing it electrostaically like a laser printer
02:06 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: it's possible that the part itself will still have a decent resolution, just the material blobs don't
02:08 PM gloops: thats how metal printing works isnt it?
02:08 PM fragalot: depends on the method, gloops
02:10 PM gloops: i saw something where the compounds we basically printed into shape, then fused afterwards
02:10 PM gloops: we=were
02:10 PM fragalot: it's not as much fused as it is infiltrated with that type
02:11 PM gloops: its wasnt as strong as metal
02:12 PM fragalot: it's typically a binderjet that binds the shape together, and later you infiltrate it with a metal
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: http://aerosint.com/home/ pics of finished parts look low res
02:12 PM fragalot: it's an older technique but it works alright
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: maybe 1mm lines at best
02:12 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: i'm not so sure those are really finished parts as such
02:13 PM CaptHindsight: http://aerosint.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Capture-d%E2%80%99e%CC%81cran-2018-01-26-a%CC%80-11.51.27.png
02:13 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: especially because they say the white powder is the "inert" stuff that doesn't get bound together, yet they show them holding it sideways
02:13 PM fragalot: to me it looks more like samples of the patterning drum
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: heh, like an offset press
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: maybe that is all it is
02:14 PM fragalot: in fact
02:14 PM fragalot: their first printed part is planned for june 2018
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: then you have to change drums when the layers change
02:15 PM fragalot: look at the timeline on their about page
02:15 PM fragalot: hahaha
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: thats terrible
02:15 PM fragalot: gloops: anyway, for 3D printing metals, you have basically a choice of SLM, EBM, LOM, or BJ
02:16 PM fragalot: (selective laser melting, electron-beam meltin, laminated object manufacturing, or binderjet)
02:16 PM fragalot: all of these processes have their advantages, and their drawbacks
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: heh so it's not a digital printer
02:17 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: the aerosint?
02:18 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: yes
02:18 PM fragalot: it's a voxel based print head, from their description.. and given the name "aerosint", i'm thinking they use air to actuate the powder in some way :P
02:18 PM enleth: I just watched John Saunders' tour of the Starrett factory (not new, just missed it when he posted it), it's interesting to see how many Bridgeports they have in the production area - despite people all over disparaging them as glorified drill presses
02:18 PM fragalot: perhaps they use air to liquify the powder to make it dose like a fluid
02:19 PM fragalot: enleth: haha yeah. I especially like their pre-cnc automated lathes
02:19 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: too many maybes
02:20 PM fragalot: indeed.
02:20 PM MarkusBec: or its just a scam :)
02:20 PM fragalot: if they keep going I may have a talk with 'm
02:21 PM CaptHindsight: I'm doing plastic powders differently
02:21 PM fragalot: actually I could just email my contact at sirris & just plain ask what it's about, lol
02:22 PM roycroft: bridgeports are not glorified drill presses
02:22 PM roycroft: they're also not high volume production machines
02:22 PM roycroft: they're good for prototyping and job shop operations
02:22 PM sync: if you look at other universal mills they are pretty much glorified drilling machines
02:22 PM roycroft: i've seen that video too, and they use the bridgeports a lot for prototypes and repairs
02:23 PM enleth: roycroft: I guess there's no better confirmation of this than firggin' Starrett using them
02:23 PM roycroft: they have an awful lot of cnc machines to do much of the high production work
02:23 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: no printed parts yet
02:23 PM sync: enleth: the starrett production is a joke
02:23 PM CaptHindsight: until JUne 2018
02:23 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: nope.
02:23 PM sync: no wonder they have prices like that
02:23 PM fragalot: yup
02:23 PM fragalot: but i'm interesting in the print head
02:24 PM roycroft: they do use a lot of "traditional techniques"
02:24 PM enleth: roycroft: the guide said they're also for one-offs on special customer request
02:24 PM roycroft: yes, which is the "job shop" aspect i mentioned earlier
02:25 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: when the laser sinters the powder it contracts
02:25 PM roycroft: bridgeports aside, i think one big take-away from that video is that there's a lot more manual operations that go into making starrett tools than one might guess
02:26 PM CaptHindsight: I don't think they have accounted for this either
02:26 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: how is it different from a full powder bed?
02:26 PM roycroft: one would imagine that a manufacturer of precision tools would be highly automated these days
02:26 PM fragalot: the material contraction must be taken into account anyway
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: the thermoplastic powders will contract while the silica support material will not
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: they might not care about density of the printed plastic
02:27 PM fragalot: the thermoplastic powder only contracts where you melt it
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: yup
02:28 PM fragalot: which is the same for both materials
02:28 PM fragalot: methods*
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: the support material doesn't contract
02:28 PM fragalot: it's also not heated though
02:29 PM fragalot: excluding the build chamber temp
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: thats another issue, we typically heat the build chamber like an oven
02:29 PM enleth: roycroft: my impression from a lot of precision mechanics people who publish some of their work is that the very last steps are manual or handled by a grinder anyway so it doesn't matter much at the milling/turning stage
02:30 PM CaptHindsight: after the laser sinters the plastic that layer will be lower than the silica support around it
02:30 PM enleth: roycroft: or putting it in different terms - it doesn't matter if you machine those parts on a manual or a CNC mill, you have to do a lot of finishing work anyway
02:31 PM roycroft: yes
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: I don't see that they are aiming for max density or precision
02:31 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: perhaps they're multi-layering the thermoplastic vs the silica
02:31 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: or they're using finer silica to keep the layer thicknesses equal
02:31 PM roycroft: a cnc machine is generally faster than a manual machine and a single operator can often manage several machines simultaneously
02:31 PM roycroft: those are the big benefits of automation
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: if you ever hear anything pleaselet me know
02:32 PM fragalot: roycroft: plus they employ people and can afford to do so whilst still make a profit
02:32 PM enleth: I guess the exception are those 6 axis house-sized mills that make generator turbines too big to hand-finish, so they have to get it right the first time within extreme tolerances
02:33 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: Aye aye capt'n, I'll send out a feeler email to Sirris tomorrow.. sadly the industrial commission I was in ended a few months ago
02:33 PM fragalot: so I can't get the same details anymore
02:33 PM fragalot: but I should be able to get a bit more information than what they list on the site
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/DSJThbDBe6Y?t=18s 5 axis machining aluminium propeller blade
02:35 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/tu2GFst6Ehs?t=10s larger prop
02:35 PM fragalot: if you ever get the chance, go see ASCO's plant in zaventem, CaptHindsight
02:36 PM fragalot: the machines they have there are absolutely gorgeous
02:36 PM fragalot: have you ever seen a toolchanger with 1 meter long endmills in 'm?
02:39 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L is and Stuart are surrounded by aerospace machine shops
02:39 PM fragalot: well I was impressed. :-)
02:39 PM fragalot: granite tables the size of my house
02:39 PM CaptHindsight: back in 2013 the LCNC fest was at Stuarts place, he does parts like those
02:40 PM fragalot: 5axis mills te size of my entire property
02:40 PM fragalot: and then they tell you "oh yeah that's the small one, follow me"
02:40 PM fragalot: >.<
02:41 PM fragalot: i'm off for a walk -ttyl
02:46 PM Cromaglious_: \
02:48 PM Cromaglious_: anyone find a cheap 5axis CAM yet?
02:48 PM enleth: interesting, other than a couple computers here and there the Starrett plant looks like ripped straight out of the 1950s
02:49 PM enleth: the building itself contributes most to that feel, but not only that
02:49 PM CaptHindsight: Cromaglious_: I haven't seen anything open source yet >3 axis
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: there have been some thesis published with some work, but no application yet
02:52 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: for what it's worth, the version of HSM bundled in F360 is capable of 5 axis work
02:52 PM enleth: it's you'r call whether that qualifies as "cheap" and as "CAM"
02:52 PM enleth: *your
02:52 PM Cromaglious_: That was the problem after WWII, we bombed the cr*p out of Germany, Germany bomded the cr*p out of england, france, belgium, ........ Here in the states n- nothing was touched. So into the 50's and 60's US was using it's old machines while germany reuilt from scratch and made all new machines and have kept the mentality of staying up to date.
02:52 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: the free version?
02:52 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: there is only one version, you just pay for it, or don't if you're eligible for a free license
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/ anything new here?
02:54 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: tell me more, I worked in the credit card industry for a couple years and I can assure you the biggest hurdle in securing the card payment system is the US clinging to the magstripe and signatures
02:55 PM Cromaglious_: hmm they probably have standardized naming of axis 4 and up. axial in X axis is 4th or A, axial in Y is B, axial in Z is C?
02:55 PM enleth: "but it worked for 70 years, why do we have to pay to change it!"
02:55 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: YAY I'm eligible for free -- maker space non profit
02:56 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: so true... because we spend a bit now, and save shit loads later
02:57 PM Cromaglious_: I watched the video of the last day of beatle production in Mexico... Everything was up to date,
02:58 PM enleth: the other side of the german tendency to stay up to date is that they often replace machines that would still be perfectly serviceable in an industrial setting
02:59 PM Cromaglious_: beautiful 200 ton presses all in a line. Punching out roofs, floor pans, door panels, ...
02:59 PM enleth: can't complain, it's how people further east can afford high-end machine tools, slightly used but still in excellent condition and for 1/5th of the price of a new ne
02:59 PM enleth: *one
02:59 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: to get higher tollerences, faster cycle times, cheaper operating cost
03:00 PM enleth: perhaps, but it's shaving off single percentage points at that stage
03:01 PM enleth: sometimes I get the impression it's partly about investment incentives
03:02 PM Cromaglious_: 5% operating cost reduction can pay for itself pretty damn quick
03:03 PM Cromaglious_: also the tax right off the german guberment allows for machine upgrades
03:03 PM enleth: what I mean is that sure, the new equipment does come out even and brings in profit after some time, but partly thanks to tax write-offs and federal incentives to invest
03:03 PM Cromaglious_: write off
03:03 PM enleth: this exactly
03:03 PM enleth: and without those incentives, they would probably hang onto the older machines for a little longer
03:04 PM Cromaglious_: I'll have to look and see the depriciation schedule for german machines
03:04 PM enleth: again, it's not like I'm complainign, it's just that from a technical point of view this is change for change's sake sometimes, dictated by the accouting department
03:05 PM enleth: I'm sure folks at the factory floor don't complain either, having new toys to play with at regular intervals
03:14 PM enleth: one interesting remark from the Starrett guy on CNC machines
03:14 PM enleth: they have a lot of those semi-auto machines from pre-CNC era still in perfect working condition
03:14 PM enleth: and they consider the new CNC stuff to be the middle tier between mass production and one-offs
03:15 PM enleth: because a 1960s mechanically programmed acme screw making machine takes two days to set up, but afterwards it's still faster than the CNC screw making machines they have
03:19 PM enleth: they no longer invest in major repairs of those old machines and do replace them when they fail completely, but hold onto them as long as possible
03:20 PM gloops: nut and bolt machines
03:22 PM enleth: it's also funny how they do replace the flooring below the machines and the lighting fixtures above when they replace a bunch of machines at once
03:22 PM enleth: so there's this 1943 wooden frame factory building with a foot lane down the middle
03:23 PM enleth: on the left side it's decades old bulbous casting machines on wooden floor, lit with old style fixtures
03:23 PM enleth: on the right, modern boxy CNC stuff on epoxy floor, lit with LEDs
03:24 PM enleth: whenever John turns 180deg with the camera, it looks like a cut to a completely different building
03:24 PM gloops: milling section, Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/3/32/ImV103-p282c.jpg
03:25 PM gloops: common layout, huge steam engine at the end of the factory, driving those overhead shafts, individual machines taking power from the shaft via flat belt
03:25 PM gloops: no stop switch, just a clutch
03:26 PM enleth: there's this YT guy who operates a steam-powered machine shop
03:26 PM gloops: i bet belt fitting was a common job heh
03:26 PM enleth: I think he actually does make money on it
03:27 PM gloops: as a living museum or serious production concern?
03:27 PM enleth: a job countryside job shop making spare parts for agricultural equipment I think
03:27 PM enleth: *s/a job/a /
03:28 PM gloops: well, no reason why it shouldnt be viable on a smaller scale
03:28 PM gloops: probably cheaper to fire a steam engine than use electricity now
03:28 PM enleth: at least when the power goes out, he just shrugs, lights an oil lamp and goes back to work
03:29 PM gloops: lol, yeah some advantages
03:29 PM enleth: in the middle of nowhere with frequent power outages that makes some sense
03:30 PM enleth: heh, 50m further down the hall from the wooden floor part, there's a robot cell handling two CNC lathes
03:30 PM enleth: it would be pretty cool working at a production facility like that
03:33 PM enleth: and one more interesting observation: it's the 4th or so factory toured by John where they still use the Blanchard grinders
03:34 PM roycroft: i still have a hard time watching that guy's videos
03:34 PM roycroft: he's smart and provides good information
03:34 PM gloops: wood can actually be stronger than steel for beams and vertical supports
03:34 PM roycroft: i try to watch them
03:34 PM roycroft: but he still comes across as really snarky
03:34 PM roycroft: i don't believe he is
03:34 PM enleth: he could get a better gimbal and cut down on the "holy cow" enthusiasm sometimes
03:34 PM roycroft: but he comes across that way
03:35 PM roycroft: perhaps it's because he's from new york
03:35 PM enleth: roycroft: actually his in-shop videos are fine, at least as long as he doesn't wave the camera around, with 90% of the shot being motion blurred
03:36 PM enleth: as for snarkiness - doesn't bother me a bit, maybe that's because I'm not stranger to being snarky when I talk publicly myself
03:36 PM enleth: *no
03:36 PM roycroft: it's my own problem, not his
03:36 PM enleth: he's still very tame compared to AvE
03:37 PM enleth: but the real master in this category is This Old Tony
03:37 PM roycroft: i've seen one or two of this old tony videos
03:37 PM roycroft: i don't remember them, but i remember really really not liking them
03:37 PM enleth: interesting
03:38 PM MarcelineVQ: you should give it another shot then, because they're quite funny if nothing else
03:38 PM enleth: he's one of my favorite youtubers, on par with Clickspring and ABOM
03:38 PM MarcelineVQ: saunder is a good guy just trying to get along and share with people, pretty annoying on video though
03:39 PM enleth: thing is, ABOM is simply filming his work as-is, he's not usually changing his workflow for the sake of filming, he's just got a high quality camera and a good eye for framing shots
03:39 PM enleth: Clickspring is an absolute master of macro framing and commentary
03:39 PM roycroft: i do like doubleboost
03:39 PM enleth: Tony is somewhere inbetween, adding more discussion and educational parts
03:40 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: for awhile Germans could write off machines in 1 year, now it's longer, but I think still less than 5 years and the US is still at 20 years
03:40 PM roycroft: in part because his machining style is not particularly elegant, but gets the job done
03:40 PM roycroft: in part because i like his geordie accent
03:40 PM Cromaglious_: https://books.google.com/books?id=SCYlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA181&lpg=RA3-PA181&dq=difference+between+US+and+German+depreciation+schedule+for+industrial+machinery&source=bl&ots=UcGDKKwiNm&sig=Ak3y8lmG6hi29JOy2s5-kb2PXrk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiet6CcjYPZAhUL-GMKHeg6DsQQ6AEIQjAE#v=onepage&q=difference%20between%20US%20and%20German%20depreciation%20schedule%20for%20industrial%20machinery&f=false
03:41 PM enleth: roycroft: I'll take a look, didn't know about his channel
03:41 PM XXCoder: enleth: what channel?
03:41 PM Cromaglious_: My wife can't understand John Mills (DoubleBoost)
03:41 PM enleth: XXCoder: I mentioned a couple
03:41 PM roycroft: some might argue that's not actually english :)
03:41 PM XXCoder: it must have scrolled off
03:42 PM enleth: oh, and I forgot to mention Tom Lipton among my favourite youtubers
03:42 PM roycroft: but i'm pretty good at deciphering british accents
03:42 PM XXCoder: I already subbed to clickspring, hes awesome
03:42 PM enleth: a bit on the snarky side too
03:42 PM Cromaglious_: roycroft: there is a fair bit of Norse carry over in Geordie
03:42 PM roycroft: tom lipton is a different kind of snarky
03:42 PM enleth: but he's an old snarky guy, not a young snarky guy, so it might evoke different impressions I guess
03:43 PM roycroft: i can handle his snarkiness
03:43 PM roycroft: yeah
03:43 PM roycroft: my impression is that he has the "experience" snarkiness
03:43 PM roycroft: while nycnc guy has the "i'm really smart" snarkiness
03:43 PM Cromaglious_: My mum is from London and I've a fair ear for picking up where in England an accent is from
03:43 PM roycroft: if that makes sense
03:44 PM enleth: BTW, ABOM did have his moments of snarkiness too, had a very bad day once and couldn't restrain himself
03:44 PM roycroft: geordie also has vestiges of old english grammar
03:44 PM roycroft: at any rate i find it a rather pleasant accent
03:45 PM roycroft: i understand scots fairly well though
03:45 PM enleth: roycroft: "don't-repeat-my-mistakes snarky" vs. "smug snarky"?
03:45 PM Cromaglious_: John Saunders NYCCNC is a smart guy, neophyte machinist. But he is a numbers guy so he tends to look at efficientcy
03:45 PM roycroft: i think if you dropped a random sassenach in the ghettos of glasgow or greenock the person might think what they are hearing is a foreign language
03:45 PM Cromaglious_: and he's REALLY REALLY nice
03:46 PM roycroft: yeah, enleth, that
03:46 PM roycroft: cromaglious_: i have made certain to say that i think he probably is a pretty nice guy
03:47 PM roycroft: i'm commenting on how he seems in his videos, not what i think of him personally
03:47 PM roycroft: i'm pretty sure that he's a different person than how he comes across in his videos
03:47 PM Cromaglious_: every time I seeSuanders I load him up with geeky crap... I was the one that gave him those goggles
03:47 PM roycroft: but again, that may be a regionalism thing
03:47 PM roycroft: i tend to have difficulty engaging in folks from nyc
03:48 PM XXCoder: sometimes people make persona sometimes its just "in video" persona, sometimes its delibrate
03:48 PM Cromaglious_: roycroft: that's the thing he's from Ohio country side
03:48 PM roycroft: i thought he was from nyc and moved to ohio
03:49 PM Cromaglious_: Nope, originally from OH. his wife is from northeast somewhere
03:49 PM Cromaglious_: he went to college, went to work on wall street and finally said F it
03:49 PM roycroft: oh well
03:49 PM roycroft: he picked up a nyc persona while he was there :)
03:51 PM Cromaglious_: Adam Booth in person is really nice as well, he comes right out says he's not the sharpest pencil in the box, but he's very ernest, same as Keith Rucker
03:51 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: actually he's that in the videos as well
03:51 PM enleth: I've seen people comment that he doesn't have a "video persona"
03:52 PM Cromaglious_: enleth: true, so true
03:52 PM XXCoder: hm that telescope thing to measure holes
03:53 PM Cromaglious_: now his and Keith Fenners 4 jaw adverserial relationship is so true. Otherwise best of friends
03:54 PM XXCoder: I think I like bore gauges way better than that telescope thing
03:54 PM roycroft: telescoping gauges are great
03:54 PM Cromaglious_: XXCoder: I need to get some of those... just ordered $345 worth of tooling off facebook machinists used tools - boring bars, reamers, tooling bits, drills, end mills
03:54 PM roycroft: unless you buy cheap imported ones
03:54 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: don't forget Tom's snap-off surprise chuck key
03:54 PM roycroft: get starrett or mitutoyo and they are fine
03:55 PM Cromaglious_: hehe
03:55 PM XXCoder: roy how does it work though? because its diameter is not zero there will be gaps
03:55 PM roycroft: get harbor freight ones and you will be infuriated
03:55 PM roycroft: the tips are round
03:55 PM enleth: XXCoder: don't they usually have rounded ends?
03:55 PM XXCoder: oh. thought it was flat
03:55 PM Wolf__: have to have a feel of how to use them as well
03:55 PM enleth: I think they're interchangeable
03:55 PM roycroft: yes, but that's the same as with any precision measuring device, wolf__
03:55 PM Cromaglious_: snap gauges are rounded ends
03:56 PM XXCoder: https://youtu.be/r7dQj1hWNNM?t=592
03:56 PM roycroft: give a novice a micrometer and the novice will measure the same part 5 different times, with 5 different numbers
03:56 PM enleth: ABOM definitely likes them a lot, never seen him using a bore gauge except for very small stuff
03:56 PM roycroft: i like telescoping gauges because they work fine and are a lot less expensive than bore gauges
03:57 PM roycroft: if i were doing production work and needed to measure bores all day long i'd use bore gauges, because they're a lot faster
03:57 PM Cromaglious_: by sticking them in and tightening them at an angle, then pulling the handle down through center, the ends get pushed in till the shortest it's gonna get, then the gap start widening again
03:57 PM XXCoder: roy interesting
03:57 PM Cromaglious_: I love the physics and geometry of them
03:58 PM roycroft: i already have micrometers
03:58 PM roycroft: and you need a micrometer or a standard to calibrate a bore gauge anyway
03:58 PM XXCoder: roy yeah highest number of gauges I ever used was 6 of em, for 6 different hole sizes
03:58 PM enleth: roycroft: at some point it probably makes even more sense to just machine a set of go/no-go checking dowels (there was a proper name for those but I can't remember them)
03:58 PM roycroft: yes, that's even faster than using a bore gauge
03:59 PM Cromaglious_: go/no-go gauges
03:59 PM XXCoder: constantly used em thoughout the day. would be crazy to use other way
03:59 PM roycroft: you get a set of undersize and oversize pin gauges
03:59 PM Wolf__: pin gauges?
03:59 PM roycroft: and a go/no-go holder for them
03:59 PM XXCoder: Cromaglious_: nope! .0005 tol
03:59 PM phaxx: what's the tool in the chuck at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNy1qG83QYU#t=10m26s ?
03:59 PM enleth: Wolf__: yes this
03:59 PM XXCoder: -0 + .0005" is common
03:59 PM Cromaglious_: or Yae/Nae pins as my Mum's pops said
04:00 PM XXCoder: pins only step by .001 unless you get special pins
04:00 PM Wolf__: edge finder
04:00 PM Cromaglious_: .50 M2 HB machine gun, breech headspace adjustment is a go/nogo
04:00 PM phaxx: ta
04:01 PM Wolf__: actually all firesarms use go/nogo for head spacing
04:01 PM XXCoder: Wolf__: not when part is on pallet, in workstaton, and not in m,achine :)
04:01 PM roycroft: there are undersize and oversize pin guages made specifically for go/no-go testing
04:01 PM enleth: I think I've seen two-sided pin gauges too
04:02 PM enleth: one side must go in, the other must not
04:02 PM Cromaglious_: don't get Chinese pin gauges - soft as all get out. Polish/Czech have reasonable ones
04:02 PM XXCoder: crom good tip. I wonder if could harden em?
04:02 PM XXCoder: probably lose precise size
04:02 PM roycroft: that's what a go/no-go pin gauge holder does, enleth
04:02 PM Cromaglious_: Wolf: on the M2 it's a flat gauge aka really think feeler gauge
04:03 PM Cromaglious_: thick
04:03 PM Wolf__: weird, whats the thing head spacing off of
04:04 PM enleth: roycroft: yeah, but those were a single piece of steel, not two replaceable pins in a handle, rated for a given ISO tolerance at a given diameter
04:04 PM Wolf__: seeing headspace on most rimless casings is off the cartridge shoulder
04:04 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/222136229027
04:05 PM roycroft: even for dedicated applications it makes sense to me to use a pin gauge holder vs. a dedicated gauge that's a single piece of metal
04:05 PM Wolf__: pin gauge set is one of the things I’m missing =/
04:05 PM roycroft: drop the latter and you get to replace the whole thing
04:05 PM enleth: roycroft: might be a European thing
04:05 PM roycroft: drop the former and you usually just have to replace one of the pins
04:06 PM roycroft: wolf__: the problem is that you don't need a pin gauge set
04:06 PM roycroft: you need several sets of ping gauges
04:06 PM Wolf__: its a manufacturing thing for the fixed set go/nogo hole gauge
04:07 PM Wolf__: lol very true roycroft
04:07 PM XXCoder: enleth: yeah double sided ones is quite nice but im sure expensive. usually custom sizes also.
04:07 PM Cromaglious_: UNetbootin is not seeing my 8GB MLC Sata Module as a HB or USB
04:07 PM Cromaglious_: HD
04:11 PM gloops: too knackered today to make a config, ill do it tommorrow, tonight i will prepare for success!
04:12 PM roycroft: i could have used a broach a while back for a job
04:12 PM roycroft: i could afford a set of broaches that included the one i needed
04:12 PM Wolf__: I have 2 broach sets, neither right size for most things I need lol
04:12 PM roycroft: but i realised that to be able to broach things i needed several sets of broaches
04:13 PM roycroft: and that was way too much money
04:13 PM roycroft: i know that another way to look at it is that i should have bought the set i needed for that job
04:13 PM roycroft: and then buy the other sets as needed
04:13 PM roycroft: i unfortunately have this oc problem where if i buy one set i need to complete my set of sets
04:14 PM roycroft: i can't stand to have some of them missing unless all of them are missing
04:14 PM roycroft: and even if i can determine a "common set" of broaches that is not totally comprehensive that is still about 4 sets of broaches
04:15 PM roycroft: and then i need to broach a metric slot
04:15 PM enleth: can you actually gang up broaches to make a wider one?
04:16 PM enleth: I've never seen anyone do it
04:16 PM roycroft: not sure
04:16 PM roycroft: i'm not talking about four identical sets
04:16 PM roycroft: i'm talking about four sets with differing components that add up to a "master set"
04:17 PM Wolf__: thats the annoying problem I have, https://i.imgur.com/LVXEhyj.jpg 2 matching sets… not a master kit
04:18 PM Deejay: gn8
04:29 PM Cromaglious_: OK I have Wyse Dx0D 2GB RAM 8GB MLC SATA Module running 64bit mint
04:32 PM Wolf__: sounds like overkill lol
04:34 PM Cromaglious_: hmm AMD G-T48E passmark 716 Atom 330 passmark 590
04:34 PM gloops: ive got a 2008 dell on my router, seems fine
04:36 PM Cromaglious_: This might be the new Linuxcnc computer
04:36 PM Cromaglious_: once I get the Ethernet working
04:43 PM gloops: im pretty sceptical about this practice of milling the spoilboard 'flat' as well
04:44 PM gloops: if the cutter isnt right accross the bed, milling it off doesnt make the bed flat, it actually mills in whatever twist there is in the machine
04:45 PM gloops: you might get away with that with sheet materials, clamped to it they fill bend to the twist
04:45 PM SpeedEvil: Are you meaning if Z is out of alignment?
04:45 PM gloops: but a rigid workpiece wont, it just wont be sat right
04:46 PM SpeedEvil: If Z is out of alignment, and the bed is flat, you get a globally flat surface with ripples according to the tilt of the cutter and its radius
04:46 PM gloops: SpeedEvil i mean if the bed isnt flat, or not parallel to the x and y
04:46 PM SpeedEvil: By 'bed is flat' I mean the xy axis cause the cutter to describe a flat plane
04:47 PM gloops: everybody mills the bed 'flat'
04:47 PM SpeedEvil: If your X and Y axis together form a flat plane, then milling it flat will get it globally flat and level with respect to the xy axis.
04:47 PM SpeedEvil: If your Z axis is out of alignment, you get ripple, you do not get a global flatness error
04:47 PM gloops: how do you know what isnt right? could be the bed is twisted, or the x and or y arent true to it
04:48 PM SpeedEvil: Careful measurement
04:48 PM gloops: over 1500mm?
04:48 PM Wolf__: use your optical collimator
04:48 PM SpeedEvil: If X and Y describe a flat plane, that will correct any twist in the bed
04:48 PM SpeedEvil: As it'll be straight after you cut it.
04:49 PM gloops: ive got a spirit level a tape and a straight edge
04:49 PM SpeedEvil: What are you trying to level?
04:49 PM gloops: have got dtis but they arent much use for this
04:50 PM gloops: im just saying - you cant really know to any close degree what is out relative to what
04:51 PM gloops: at the time of welding the z ran 1mm out over the entire bed, which i thought was pretty good, not checked again since
04:52 PM roycroft: you need to make three beds and flatten them relative to each other :)
04:54 PM gloops: im gonna fit spars accross, mill the spars 'flat' so i can then just screw an mdf spoilboard to them, wont have to mill a board off every time it needs renewing then
04:54 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Precision-Rabone-and-Son-spirit-level/253395036298 would help a lot
04:55 PM gloops: yes it would, i have got a 'good' level, old marples, not as good as that type though
04:57 PM enleth: https://youtu.be/T7JqXbm-Nwo?t=46m54s now that's a teeny tiny shaper
05:03 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/instrument-levels/instrument-screw-on-levels/1300-05-screw-on-level-adjustable-120mm-long-sens-0-05mmm/ - interesting
05:03 PM SpeedEvil: 0.05mm/m. (you would need to attach to a suitable nice and stiff bar of course.
05:04 PM SpeedEvil: Tehy go to 0.02mm/m, but that one doesn't have a price
05:05 PM gloops: i might end up investing in one
05:06 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/vials/ground-vials/5726101-ground-vial-15x95mm-sensitivity-0-02mmm/ - interesting
05:07 PM SpeedEvil: though that would mean you'd need to DIY the whole level, which might be a fun project
05:07 PM gloops: if a 1500mm bed is out a mm or 2 it wont make much different on an 8 inch workpiece, but say you were v carving over 1500mm, that would be a lot of difference - if the v carve is 4mm deep it would be 4 at one end and 2mm at the other
05:08 PM gloops: i wonder if they do precision water levels
05:09 PM gloops: that might be a decent way, clamp reference to one corner, take the pipe round the other 3 corners
05:12 PM Tom_L: when i drilled my table, i saved the coordinates to G59 (one i never use) so if i wanna add something to it later it will locate
05:12 PM Cromaglious_: my Z bed came today for my K40 laser cutter 32W POS
05:13 PM Cromaglious_: POS == Piece of Compost
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/733MEXFLZ-600
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: I thought that the price would be much higher
05:13 PM gloops: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Moore-Wright-Mw570-01-Digital-Mini-Magnetic-Level/132456081026?
05:13 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_st_price-desc-rank?keywords=starett&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Astarett&qid=1517440382&sort=price-desc-rank
05:14 PM gloops: Features:Measuring range: 360° (4 x 90°). Resolution: 0.05°. Accuracy: ±0.2°.
05:14 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight you need one of those?
05:14 PM gloops: Mini-Mag Level provides instant 360 digital inclination of any angle
05:15 PM gloops: thats useful 360 level
05:15 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=lp_1750874031_st?srs=1750874031&rh=i%3Aspecialty-aps&qid=1517440455&sort=price-desc-rank I meant
05:15 PM Tom_L: gloops they're fairly accurate
05:15 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I was watching the video where they showed a few in that size range
05:15 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Starrett-ST436EXRLZ-Outside-Micrometer-Graduation/dp/B0006J4T3Y
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: https://youtu.be/T7JqXbm-Nwo?t=50m37s
05:17 PM CaptHindsight: might as well get the whole set
05:17 PM Tom_L: won't quite fit around his belly
05:17 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: how many machine shops are there within 20 miles of you?
05:17 PM Tom_L: i'd rather have a nice height gage and granite block for it
05:18 PM Tom_L: oh got, i couldn't begin to tellyou
05:18 PM Tom_L: alot
05:18 PM Tom_L: gawd*
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: more than the Detroit area now
05:18 PM Tom_L: more than likely
05:18 PM Cromaglious_: nobody bid on this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-No-S579-set-of-6-Telescoping-Gages/312057417866?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D48420%26meid%3Df03fa3ef8b9d4a75aadc3b4644b71265%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162500861863%26itm%3D312057417866&_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&autorefresh=true
05:19 PM enleth: heh, I'm just at the point of the Starrett tour video where they pass a rack full of 54-60" micrometers
05:19 PM Cromaglious_: unless one of you is AMV8917
05:20 PM * Wolf__ bids
05:20 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight i did a quick fix on the way covers
05:20 PM Tom_L: did you see?
05:20 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: yes, glad it worked out and nice deal
05:21 PM Tom_L: well, i wanna get it goin
05:21 PM Wolf__: height gauge like this? https://i.imgur.com/oapW32x.jpg
05:21 PM Tom_L: i may fancy it up later
05:21 PM Cromaglious_: snap gauges
05:21 PM Tom_L: simiarl
05:22 PM Tom_L: sp
05:22 PM Tom_L: pfft
05:22 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/saR7HEp.jpg its a bit big lol
05:22 PM Wolf__: and I have no idea what the front dial is for
05:23 PM Wolf__: dial/counter
05:24 PM pink_vampire: nice frustration machine
05:24 PM CaptHindsight: counts the number of parts measured
05:25 PM CaptHindsight: ?
05:25 PM Wolf__: not sure https://i.imgur.com/LS3OjJg.jpg
05:25 PM Wolf__: its connected to the main board
05:26 PM gloops: aww old hannah hauxwell has died, 91
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: parts are from 1979-1980
05:27 PM Wolf__: yeah, its old and was semi crusty
05:29 PM Wolf__: couldn’t find any info on it https://i.imgur.com/pAi8a5E.jpg
05:57 PM Connor: 12" Rotary table over sized for a bridgeport ?
05:58 PM Tom_L: maybe
05:58 PM Wolf__: 8” next to my 6” vise https://i.imgur.com/IQixEwH.jpg
05:58 PM Wolf__: 12” might be a bit much
05:58 PM Connor: https://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/d/phase-2-rotary-table-fixture/6478615211.html
05:59 PM pink_vampire: i'm fin with my 5"
05:59 PM pink_vampire: fine*
05:59 PM Tom_L: pink what kind did you get?
05:59 PM pink_vampire: the grizzly
05:59 PM Tom_L: got a link? i'm still thinking i want a 4" just for size limitations
06:00 PM pink_vampire: i got them for a reason
06:00 PM Connor: They guy hasn't called me back... so it may have already sold..
06:00 PM Tom_L: maybe something from shars or such
06:00 PM Wolf__: I have a 4” china one, and a 8” phase 2 https://i.imgur.com/1buVK8J.jpg
06:00 PM pink_vampire: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Premium-Milling-Vise-5-/G7154?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com
06:01 PM Tom_L: how tall it it?
06:01 PM pink_vampire: i dont use the rotate base
06:01 PM Tom_L: i wouldn't either
06:01 PM Tom_L: how tall is just the vise?
06:01 PM Tom_L: to the flat of the vise
06:01 PM pink_vampire: from the table to the tip of the jaw
06:02 PM pink_vampire: one sec
06:02 PM pink_vampire: let me see
06:02 PM Tom_L: yeah table to top of jaws
06:04 PM pink_vampire: 104mm tall
06:04 PM Tom_L: so about 4", thanks
06:04 PM Tom_L: i'll have to go see how much clearance i've got
06:05 PM pink_vampire: i got them only because they green as the machine
06:05 PM Wolf__: lol
06:08 PM Cromaglious_: going to try live streaming for youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/RobiSydney
06:08 PM pink_vampire: machining is all about beauty
06:09 PM pink_vampire: i see a hat
06:09 PM pink_vampire: i am!!
06:10 PM pink_vampire: what is k40?
06:11 PM pink_vampire: the tesla card?
06:11 PM enleth: Cromaglious_: I see you like playing Jenga with boxes
06:12 PM pink_vampire: where did you got it?
06:13 PM pink_vampire: junk alll over
06:14 PM pink_vampire: are you even reading here?
06:15 PM pink_vampire: sooo much junk
06:16 PM pink_vampire: so much space, so little is available
06:16 PM pink_vampire: Cromaglious_: ^^^
06:16 PM pink_vampire: Cromaglious_: ^^
06:18 PM Cromaglious_: how bad was the stream connection wise?
06:19 PM pink_vampire: it was veryyy good
06:19 PM pink_vampire: but you ignore us
06:19 PM pink_vampire: so...
06:19 PM Cromaglious_: pink, We do theather
06:19 PM Cromaglious_: lemme grab my phone holder and a tripod
06:20 PM pink_vampire: sounds like a good idea
06:26 PM Cromaglious_: ok live again on tripod
06:26 PM pink_vampire: lets see
06:27 PM pink_vampire: same link?
06:27 PM Cromaglious_: yep
06:27 PM pink_vampire: i see you
06:28 PM pink_vampire: i like your soldering iron
06:28 PM pink_vampire: i had one like that loooong time ago
06:29 PM Wolf__: I must have too much load on my network, buffering badly here
06:30 PM pink_vampire: can you lower the bit rate?
06:32 PM Wolf__: I think its my computer being stupid
06:35 PM Cromaglious_: looking at my camera to get it to lower resolution
06:36 PM Wolf__: it might be my cad machine that is on the same switch hammering things seeing its running as a miner right now
06:36 PM pink_vampire: you need to set it in youtube
06:39 PM Wolf__: was video working ok for you pink?
06:39 PM pink_vampire: no
06:39 PM pink_vampire: the issue is on his end
06:40 PM Cromaglious_: trying again
06:40 PM Wolf__: on the bright side my cad box has made $0.10 in BTC in the last few hours lol
06:40 PM Cromaglious_: camera settings are set to VGA
06:41 PM pink_vampire: lol
06:41 PM pink_vampire: lets see
06:42 PM Cromaglious_: still saying 0 viewers
06:43 PM Wolf__: had to reload
06:44 PM Cromaglious_: still puzzled why I'm getting back connection. Line of sight 22' from routter
06:44 PM Cromaglious_: bad connection
06:45 PM Wolf__: can sorta make out vid
06:45 PM Wolf__: but audio no go
06:45 PM pink_vampire: Cromaglious_: how do you stream it?
06:46 PM Cromaglious_: Fire up youtube app on my phone, press the camera in the top rightish corner, you have choice of record, go live, or upload existing video
06:47 PM pink_vampire: mmm
06:48 PM Cromaglious_: wolf cuz it's a new stream
06:48 PM Wolf__: what are the nuts for?
06:48 PM Wolf__: yeah, audio working now
06:49 PM pink_vampire: work fine now
06:51 PM Wolf__: I have one of them POS jump boxes, was dead when I needed it, charge circuit just cooks the lipo I think
06:58 PM pink_vampire: there is electrical can opener
06:59 PM Wolf__: yeah, 5” angle grinder =P
06:59 PM pink_vampire: LOL
07:06 PM pink_vampire: is that a gas powered lathe?
07:06 PM Wolf__: lol
07:07 PM Wolf__: said the starter thing in it is bad
07:08 PM Wolf__: … reminds me i need to mill a t nut for my tool post grinder
07:15 PM Cromaglious_: little disks?
07:15 PM Wolf__: lol
07:17 PM Wolf__: disk> https://i.imgur.com/TP8Jl8B.jpg https://i.imgur.com/YlolAYM.jpg
07:18 PM pink_vampire: meeee
07:18 PM pink_vampire: i need one!!
07:19 PM Wolf__: bad day https://i.imgur.com/2Mjn1Mr.jpg
07:19 PM Cromaglious_: pink vented or not?
07:20 PM Wolf__: $600 in disk/pads
07:20 PM Wolf__: lol she means the tool post I bet
07:20 PM pink_vampire: i need the tool podt
07:20 PM pink_vampire: post*
07:21 PM Cromaglious_: pink_vampire: I'll post the post
07:21 PM Cromaglious_: 10 lug? BIG truck
07:22 PM Wolf__: 19.5K-lbs
07:22 PM Wolf__: sad part is that was 5000mi of wear
07:24 PM Cromaglious_: pink_vampire: /msg me address
07:24 PM Cromaglious_: Cromaglious_
07:29 PM pink_vampire: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/21137007
07:29 PM pink_vampire: my stream
07:31 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: Cromaglious_
07:31 PM Wolf__: =)
07:32 PM pink_vampire: 2 views
07:34 PM Wolf__: pinks stream makes crazy noises
07:35 PM pink_vampire: we need video conferencing program
07:35 PM Wolf__: yeah lol
07:35 PM pink_vampire: skype?
07:36 PM Wolf__: and yes I could hear you lol
07:36 PM pink_vampire: i cancel it
07:37 PM pink_vampire: Cromaglious_ is more interesting then me
07:37 PM Wolf__: lol
07:37 PM Wolf__: I dont have my usb cam here so video would probably suck
07:37 PM pink_vampire: i did it from the phone
07:38 PM Wolf__: I cpi;f fp yjsy
07:38 PM pink_vampire: no one use webcam in 2018
07:38 PM Wolf__: hah
07:38 PM phaxx: https://appear.in/cncshit
07:39 PM phaxx: fixed it for you.
07:39 PM Wolf__: I should print a holder for my phone then
07:39 PM pink_vampire: phaxx: it work on the phone?
07:40 PM phaxx: yep
07:40 PM phaxx: decent ones anyway
07:41 PM pink_vampire: lets see
07:42 PM Cromaglious_: http://ustre.am/1AHKj
07:43 PM phaxx: success.
07:43 PM phaxx: I briefly got some CNC mill porn, so I guess that worked.
07:45 PM pink_vampire: ustream work better
07:54 PM pink_vampire: Cromaglious_: do you have a cnc machine?
07:54 PM Cromaglious_: in the back yard
07:55 PM Cromaglious_: lemme try going back there
07:55 PM pink_vampire: what type of cooling are you using?
07:58 PM Crom: can of wd 40 right now
08:01 PM pink_vampire: what is the thinnest vegetable oil?
08:02 PM Cromaglious_: hmmm sun flower is thinner than olive oil
08:02 PM Wolf__: seems like a bad idea for cutting lube
08:03 PM pink_vampire: why?
08:03 PM Cromaglious_: I need a wide angle lens
08:03 PM pink_vampire: i need something none toxic
08:03 PM Wolf__: soluble oils have stuff mixed in to keep things from rusting
08:04 PM Wolf__: non toxic the only thing that comes to mind is using anchor lube
08:05 PM Cromaglious_: bees wax is a non toxic lube
08:05 PM pink_vampire: it can go in the mist tube?
08:05 PM Wolf__: softer stuff you arent really cooling but adding lube so the chips wont weld to the cutting bit
08:06 PM sync: well, you can use rapeseed oil, that is what "green" cutting oils are
08:06 PM sync: but you don't want aerosols of it also
08:06 PM enleth: pink_vampire: there are existing vegetable oil-based emulsion coolant mixes, they have additives preventing growth in the tank etc.
08:06 PM enleth: just get some ready made stuff, it's dirt cheap
08:07 PM enleth: I have no idea what brands are OK in the US, I'm using local stuff, but it's ridiculously cheap so I suppose whatever you can get should be too
08:07 PM pink_vampire: i'm using olive oil for loog time
08:08 PM enleth: and it doesn't go rancid, grow a film of fungus/bacteria/algae/whatever, flows well, etc.
08:09 PM pink_vampire: i never saw any of that in oil
08:09 PM enleth: a 5l (1gal or so) jug cost me $15 and it's diluted 1:10 with water
08:11 PM pink_vampire: and how the machine rust?
08:12 PM enleth: it's got rust inhibitors in it too
08:13 PM pink_vampire: what about baby oil?
08:13 PM enleth: no idea
08:13 PM Wolf__: what are you going to be cutting?
08:13 PM sync: baby oil is just mineral oil
08:14 PM enleth: with the proper, tested, purpose-formulated stuff being so cheap, I can't see why would anyone give two shits about fiddling with random liquids to see if they work
08:14 PM sync: not exactly non toxic if you inhale it
08:14 PM Wolf__: that sounds like a mess lol
08:14 PM pink_vampire: most of the time aluminum
08:14 PM Wolf__: could use iso alcohol
08:15 PM enleth: pink_vampire: every time you see watery white stuff flowing on a CNC machine in a video, it's a water-based emulsion coolant
08:15 PM pink_vampire: alcohol vapors in close space... boom
08:15 PM enleth: they use it on the biggest, most expensive machines
08:15 PM enleth: it stands to reason they can't risk early corrosion on those
08:16 PM pink_vampire: enleth: but it is inside my house..
08:16 PM Wolf__: isopropyl alcohol, somewhat lower explosion risk
08:16 PM enleth: pink_vampire: are you worried about mist inhalation or the stuff getting splashed around?
08:17 PM Wolf__: ^
08:17 PM pink_vampire: mist inhalation
08:17 PM sync: well then none of your suggestions are acceptable
08:17 PM Wolf__: anchor lube and a brush
08:18 PM enleth: pink_vampire: use flood coolant?
08:18 PM pink_vampire: can't
08:18 PM Wolf__: I use my noga mini-cool with no issues
08:19 PM Wolf__: makes a damn mess with smaller chips tho
08:19 PM enleth: well then you're probably asking for the impossible
08:20 PM sync: Wolf__: the problem with the mini cool is that it emits aerosols
08:20 PM Wolf__: not if you use it not as intended
08:20 PM pink_vampire: there is almost zero vapes to oil
08:21 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/fIhz3fa.jpg
08:21 PM enleth: pink_vampire: wait, if you want to use a mist cooling system, you will get the oil aerosol in the air
08:21 PM Wolf__: I have mine with the coolant under pressure feed and air at 20-30psi
08:21 PM enleth: BTW, it will probably settle down on stuff around the mill and generate an oily sticky film
08:21 PM pink_vampire: i don't like alcohol that you get a headache just from the vapors
08:22 PM enleth: it doesn't have to emit vapors for it to get everywhere including your lungs
08:22 PM enleth: if you're forcing it to become airborne with compressed air
08:22 PM Wolf__: this setup doesnt make a aerosol
08:23 PM sync: it probably does
08:23 PM Wolf__: its spitting drips
08:23 PM pink_vampire: same here
08:23 PM pink_vampire: the liquid is under pressure
08:24 PM Wolf__: no oil film on anything but the vise and where the cutter throws it
08:24 PM Wolf__: which is everywhere
08:27 PM Crom_: too lazy to go to kitchen to get steak knife, using utility knife
08:28 PM enleth: for what it's worth, I did a lot of wall painitng with water-based paints using a plaster gun (it does take some skill and fiddling to use a plaster gun with paint, but it's fast). depending on the input pressure, paint level in the tank, nozzle dia and piston position, it can be set to atomize the paint, or - for a lack of a better word - fling it out of the nozzle in sizeable drops
08:28 PM enleth: however, there *always* is some aerosol anyway
08:28 PM enleth: as evidenced by the floor and whatever was around being covered by very fine dots
08:29 PM enleth: and me being covered by the same, despite never directing the gun at myself
08:30 PM Wolf__: paint gun should be running higher than 20-30 psi
08:30 PM sync: the fog buster thing works suprisingly well to cut down the aerosol fraction
08:30 PM Crom_: Which is why I run an airless sprayer, I still get a bit of over spray not much though
08:30 PM enleth: Wolf__: actually, with a full 5l funnel of paint and a 4mm nozzle, the 20-30psi range is the best for my particular gun
08:30 PM Wolf__: thats what both me and pink are running, hacked to work like fog-busters
08:31 PM enleth: http://krismet.pl/media/prod/905/pdtynkow55lsilver2.jpg something like this
08:32 PM Wolf__: ah, hopper feed gun
08:32 PM enleth: vomits paint like crazy at higher pressures, but it *was* designed for plaster
08:33 PM Crom_: we put a 45 degree elbow on it for spraying deck texture
08:33 PM pink_vampire: ;)
08:33 PM Crom_: it was design to spray horizontal or up, not down
08:34 PM Crom_: oh fudge, my mud is at the space
08:35 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/6h18AtY.jpg my fog-buster clone
08:35 PM Crom_: we sub let a warehouse, and I pluged a doorway
08:36 PM sync: well the pipe is quite important to the operation
08:36 PM enleth: Wolf__: is that a water filter/purifier body?
08:36 PM Wolf__: yup lol
08:36 PM enleth: quite clever
08:36 PM pink_vampire: this is my original design https://i.imgur.com/5pSwTPn.jpg
08:36 PM Wolf__: slim #10
08:36 PM Wolf__: top brass 90 is a pickup tube that runs to the bottom
08:40 PM Crom_: Wolf what mill is that?
08:41 PM Wolf__: x1
08:41 PM Crom_: ahhh
08:41 PM Wolf__: my first entry in to milling and cnc lol
08:41 PM enleth: it's small and red, it must be a Sieg
08:41 PM Crom_: micro mill
08:42 PM Wolf__: then I started doing a X2 conversion
08:42 PM Crom_: I'm waiting on my cnc fusion kit
08:43 PM Wolf__: rig it up cnc and then use it to make the fusion kit lol
08:45 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/PvTW4SS.png?1 to run the leads https://i.imgur.com/oRQ1RQe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/tf2f7lU.jpg
08:56 PM Crom_: just ordered 2 9mm reamers, one for me, one for a bud
08:57 PM MrHindsight: the two sides of the coupling almost meet :)
08:58 PM Wolf__: yeah, had the shaft flushed on each of them, worked fine after I moved them some
08:58 PM MrHindsight: how many years after a client doesn't pay you and they haven't called about there stuff until it's yours?
08:58 PM MrHindsight: there/their
09:01 PM Tom_L: on a contract?
09:01 PM Tom_L: the contract should spell out the non payment procedure
09:02 PM Tom_L: or a simple mechanic's lien
09:07 PM Wolf__: i need some undersized reams
09:07 PM Tom_L: run the blades over a stone
09:08 PM Tom_L: then make a test hole
09:08 PM Wolf__: ya know, I feel kinda stupid for not thinking of that lol
09:08 PM pink_vampire: let me take a pic of it
09:14 PM MrHindsight: https://imgur.com/gallery/oo9n3 Naomi Parker Farley, the real Rosie the Riveter and apparently a machinist
09:15 PM Tom_L: i bet she could tell some stories
09:15 PM MrHindsight: big rotary table
09:15 PM MrHindsight: whats on top?
09:16 PM Tom_L: maybe a broach for making a gear?
09:19 PM Wolf__: massive shaper?
09:21 PM Connor: Is there a standard for which direction a Switch should be to indicate fwd / stop / rev ??
09:21 PM pink_vampire: soo hard to take picture of that
09:22 PM pink_vampire: i need more light
09:23 PM Tom_L: ok well the only productive thing i did this evening was have a bowl of ice cream
09:24 PM Wolf__: sounds like my whole week
09:24 PM Wolf__: haven’t done shit
09:24 PM roycroft: i don't know if there's a standard, connor, but i've always used right or up for forward, down or left for reverse, and center position for stop, of course, and my sense is that most equipment i've used uses that same convention
09:25 PM Wolf__: ordered a fiberoptic amp to play with and turned my CAD box in to a crappy mining rig
09:27 PM Connor: Guy brought a Grizzly G0602 lathe into the maker space yesterday.. it had FWD / OFF / REV
09:28 PM Connor: I think I set my mill up as REV / OFF / FWD
09:28 PM Connor: I don't want dumb a$$ getting confused switching between the two machines..
09:28 PM Connor: I don't have them labeled yet either. :)
09:29 PM * Tom_L cuts the power plug off Connor's mill
09:29 PM Connor: Now why would you do that Tom_L?
09:29 PM Connor: )
09:29 PM Tom_L: safety
09:30 PM Connor: No one has the lockout key yet. :)
09:30 PM Tom_L: forward is up
09:30 PM Connor: It's a rotary switch.
09:31 PM Connor: The drum switch on the motor is disabled and using the VFD now..
09:31 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/b2gHvhm.jpg
09:32 PM Connor: Can't make that one out...
09:32 PM pink_vampire: the logo and all the metal parts love the flash
09:32 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: ^
09:32 PM Connor: So, is it FWD on the left ?
09:32 PM Tom_L: it would seem to me right would be fwd
09:33 PM Wolf__: where is the nozzle? lol
09:33 PM Tom_L: just don't look down the barrel when you pull the trigger
09:34 PM Wolf__: and is that a flow rate meter on the side? =)
09:36 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: the nozzle is mount to the dial indicator mount (i did the same shaft for it) and i have a flow meter mount to the head of the machine
09:37 PM pink_vampire: it is very small nozzle
09:37 PM Wolf__: so you didn’t add a tube to that brass part?
09:39 PM pink_vampire: there it 2 tubs, i hide them on the sleeve
09:40 PM Wolf__: I meant nozzle tube, like the fog-busters
09:41 PM pink_vampire: yes
09:41 PM pink_vampire: there is 2
09:41 PM pink_vampire: air and liquid
09:41 PM Wolf__: nozzle=spray tip
09:42 PM Wolf__: https://www.tormach.com//uploads/images/Gallery/products/upgrades/other_upgrades/32682_Fogbuster_Nozzle_MG_7721.jpg
09:42 PM pink_vampire: you meed to the extra pipe ?
09:42 PM Wolf__: like the brass end tube in the photo
09:43 PM pink_vampire: i will add one only of i really need it
09:43 PM pink_vampire: i did a pre bore for it
09:44 PM MrHindsight: Tom_L: after 10 years I guess it's mine
09:44 PM Wolf__: it sorta does need it, to focus the coolant and air
09:45 PM pink_vampire: i can get it very close to the cutter anyway
09:45 PM Wolf__: idea for the air is to clear the chips so they dont get re-cut, and keep from having the coolant/cutting fluid spray everywhere
09:46 PM pink_vampire: let me show you
09:46 PM Wolf__: yours wouldnt work here https://i.imgur.com/fIhz3fa.jpg
09:47 PM pink_vampire: work fine
09:47 PM Wolf__: heck, mine was a pain to keep aimed
09:47 PM Wolf__: part kept hitting it
09:48 PM jesseg: Howdy folks
09:51 PM Tom_L: MrHindsight, the interest and collection costs would probably make it so anyway
09:51 PM Tom_L: oh and storage fees etc
09:53 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/MhVFbYU.jpg
09:54 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__:
09:54 PM pink_vampire: ^
09:54 PM Wolf__: yeah =)
09:54 PM Wolf__: still think it would be more effective for clearing the chips out of cuts if it had a nozzle tube
09:54 PM pink_vampire: what do you say? close enough
09:55 PM pink_vampire: it is about 1" from the cutter
09:55 PM Wolf__: I usually keep mine about 3mm from the cut
09:56 PM pink_vampire: mmm
09:57 PM pink_vampire: it is better to do like 3mm tube? or very small hole?
09:57 PM Wolf__: not sure, seeing i took the lazy route and used the noga
09:58 PM pink_vampire: how much it cost?
09:59 PM pink_vampire: my was about 10$
09:59 PM Wolf__: $85 I think
09:59 PM Wolf__: plus the tank
09:59 PM Wolf__: fittings, regulator, electronic valve
10:00 PM Wolf__: I run mine from g-code
10:00 PM jesseg: lol I used a drain pump from an old dish washer.. Plus a mini fountain pump to prime that lol.. ugh.. but the price was right
10:00 PM Wolf__: I didn’t want flood
10:01 PM jesseg: oh, doing mist?
10:01 PM pink_vampire: yes
10:01 PM jesseg: ahh
10:01 PM pink_vampire: me too
10:01 PM Wolf__: fog buster clones
10:01 PM jesseg: is mist lots better? in what way?
10:02 PM Wolf__: well, no drain pain
10:02 PM Wolf__: pan
10:02 PM jesseg: I think my mill had mist used by previous owners.. There was rock hard wax deposits *all over it* requiring hours of diesel and steel wool and elbow grease.
10:02 PM pink_vampire: mist is significantly better in not throw you out from the apartment
10:03 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Mister1.jpg
10:03 PM Tom_L: that's how i did mine
10:03 PM jesseg: no catch pan in that either but after cleaning up from that I'm tempted to just build a catch pan LOL
10:03 PM Wolf__: most people dont have machine shop in apartment lol
10:03 PM Wolf__: =P
10:03 PM jesseg: that's pretty nice Wolf__
10:03 PM Tom_L: i had my sherline in a box
10:04 PM pink_vampire: is that the sherline head?
10:04 PM Tom_L: yes
10:04 PM pink_vampire: where did you got the rails?
10:04 PM Tom_L: for now i'm using it
10:04 PM Tom_L: china
10:04 PM Wolf__: look like hiwin
10:04 PM Tom_L: they are
10:05 PM pink_vampire: is that the real hiwin or clone?
10:05 PM jesseg: oh I mean Tom_L, that's real nice.. I like your setup a lot.
10:05 PM Tom_L: says it is
10:05 PM Wolf__: my x2 cnc is pile of parts lol
10:05 PM pink_vampire: loll
10:05 PM pink_vampire: I want to get rails for my Z
10:05 PM pink_vampire: but I'm not sure if the ebay one are any good for that
10:06 PM pink_vampire: what grade are thy?
10:06 PM Wolf__: I got a bigger manual mill to play with https://i.imgur.com/0r177E3.jpg
10:06 PM MrHindsight: https://imagebin.ca/v/3qALefb0ease what to do with this?
10:06 PM jesseg: Grizzly, Wolf__ ?
10:07 PM pink_vampire: it's a "wolfcraft" so give it to Wolf__
10:07 PM Wolf__: 1980 Jet 840
10:07 PM jesseg: oh cool
10:07 PM jesseg: MrHindsight, those are super cool servo motors
10:07 PM Wolf__: 1hp r8 taper knee mill
10:07 PM pink_vampire: I can't work on manual
10:07 PM pink_vampire: drive me crazy
10:08 PM jesseg: MrHindsight, but what is the thing marked "Wolfcraft?"
10:08 PM pink_vampire: I like to type the G commands and the machine go automatic
10:08 PM Wolf__: with the DRO its like a manual cnc
10:08 PM MrHindsight: jesseg: heh, was thinking of the drill compound table
10:08 PM pink_vampire: Wolf_ITX: no!
10:08 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: *
10:09 PM Wolf__: now that I have more stuff together I can start working on the x2 again
10:09 PM Wolf__: once I finish off the DRO on the lathe
10:10 PM pink_vampire: MrHindsight: also the 3 servos look nice
10:10 PM Wolf__: oh pink_vampire, the noga mini cool has flow control for air and the coolant built in
10:11 PM pink_vampire: i have it also
10:12 PM pink_vampire: 2 regulators and needle valve
10:13 PM MrHindsight: has dovetails ways and lead screws
10:14 PM MrHindsight: maybe add a square vertical column for a z-axis and cnc it
10:15 PM pink_vampire: what do you mean?
10:18 PM MrHindsight: maybe use it for engraving
10:20 PM pink_vampire: what do you want to use as an engraver?
10:20 PM pink_vampire: i need to clean here and organize everything so it will look like a home again
10:22 PM Wolf__: my shop space needs that touch as well...
10:23 PM pink_vampire: let's make a competition
10:23 PM Wolf__: i’ll lose
10:24 PM Wolf__: I still have stuff from the shop that I bought that hasnt been moved yet
10:24 PM Wolf__: and I’m out of space already
10:24 PM pink_vampire: trash it
10:25 PM pink_vampire: one way ticket to the dumpster
10:25 PM jesseg: trash it? I don't think I know about that concept. Totally foreign to me. Yup.
10:25 PM Wolf__: kinda need it, sander and buffer
10:25 PM Wolf__: and aluminum stock
10:25 PM Tom_L: stock can go outside
10:25 PM pink_vampire: get a wife
10:26 PM jesseg: Is that safe? She might trash stuff. :D
10:26 PM pink_vampire: LOLLLLLLL
10:26 PM jesseg: Know what it's like to get home and find your bar stock gone?
10:26 PM Wolf__: yeah
10:26 PM Wolf__: no thanks
10:27 PM pink_vampire: you are killing meeee
10:27 PM Wolf__: can already hear it, “why do you need 3 mills, you should get rid of 2 of them”
10:28 PM pink_vampire: you made me laugh so hard
10:28 PM jesseg: And then "Why do you need a mill *and* a lathe? Just keep your favorite and sell the other"
10:28 PM pink_vampire: soooo true@!
10:28 PM Wolf__: “I cleaned out your cutter drawer, you had like 5 of everything in there, now only one of each”
10:28 PM pink_vampire: lolll
10:28 PM pink_vampire: omggg
10:29 PM jesseg: truth is I really ought to throw out a lot of stuff.. But do I? Well do I? Nope.
10:31 PM jesseg: The problem is a serious one, and it goes like this. Every 10 years, I begin to realize that I never end up using most of the stuff. But then the terrible happens. I need a part, and I actually remember where I have had it for years, I get it and use it, then of course I refuse to throw anything out for another 10 years :P
10:31 PM Wolf__: I always have the next step from that
10:31 PM Wolf__: I finally clear out stuff
10:31 PM Wolf__: then need it a week later
10:31 PM jesseg: LOL... yup.. and then need it..
10:32 PM jesseg: It's the act of clearing it out that refreshes your memory of just what you have, which induces the situation of realizing you just got rid of something yo u needed
10:32 PM pink_vampire: you can get it from lowes
10:32 PM Jymmm: You spend the first half of your life collecitng things, and the last half getting rid of them all =)
10:33 PM Wolf__: now if I start to feel bad about the mess, I head over to my auction lot buying buddy’s house to look around lol
10:33 PM jesseg: Jymmm, I guess that means I should start reversing course now
10:34 PM jesseg: I have found a neat trick though -- a way to get rid of some stuff you may need. Give it to a friend who has the same problem who will never need it. When you do finally need it, he'll still have it.
10:34 PM Jymmm: jesseg: I'm currenty trying to get rid of half my crap, and tha'ts by the pould
10:34 PM Wolf__: haha jesseg
10:35 PM pink_vampire: the new mist coolant smell sooo good
10:35 PM jesseg: A machinists vape system
10:35 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/BEQH6AB.jpg
10:35 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/ez7U7iz.jpg
10:35 PM pink_vampire: and it is PINKKKK
10:36 PM jesseg: Wolf__, you know, you might use all of those in your lifetime.
10:36 PM Wolf__: thats at the auction lot guys garage
10:36 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: get rid of it and keep only one!!!
10:37 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, so do you just mist plain baby oil? isn't that essentially scented mineral oil that's been tested on pediatricians?
10:37 PM Wolf__: he had odd stuff everywhere https://i.imgur.com/VLg6PhL.jpg
10:37 PM Wolf__: need a roller bearing for a fidget spinner
10:37 PM jesseg: uh huh
10:37 PM jesseg: that looks like it takes two hands to pick up
10:37 PM jesseg: you'd have to have one guy hold it and another spin it
10:37 PM jesseg: or you could just spin the guy holding it
10:37 PM Wolf__: yeah its pretty heavy lol
10:37 PM pink_vampire: the "scented" it is very important!
10:38 PM pink_vampire: it make the part smell like baby
10:38 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/DO8MeXD.jpg he had these sitting in his car port area
10:39 PM jesseg: ahh the filing cabinet
10:39 PM Wolf__: some clamps https://i.imgur.com/mJh9q2p.jpg
10:39 PM pink_vampire: why do need 3 vise grips?
10:39 PM Wolf__: tool post grinder that I payed him $400 for https://i.imgur.com/WzFfTBL.jpg
10:40 PM pink_vampire: show the real mess
10:41 PM Wolf__: idk, the tools came in the tool cabs
10:42 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, the copper plating experiment is all done: http://videoflier.com/movies/1517458705513763549173
10:43 PM jesseg: I was going to draw magic marker on it and etch it and make a spherical PCB and solder on components but I overplated it and it got really rough
10:44 PM pink_vampire: look very nice!!
10:45 PM pink_vampire: what was the trick to get full coverage?
10:45 PM jesseg: just keep on plating. The carbon film was not highly conductive so it plated very slowly, and the further from my wire the slower it plated
10:45 PM jesseg: so the plated area slowly grew
10:45 PM jesseg: then once it was 100% coverage it was fully conductive so the plating took place fast all over
10:48 PM pink_vampire: are those copper crystals on the bottom?
10:51 PM jesseg: essentially, except I'm not sure if they are crystals per se
10:51 PM jesseg: but they are globules for sure :P
10:52 PM jesseg: You see, the way electroplating works is the electricity takes the shortest path. That means if there's a slightly higher spot, it goes to that, so that gets more plating, so the high spots get higher.
10:52 PM jesseg: It's not a stable dynamic
10:53 PM jesseg: There are certain chemicals you can add called "Levelers" and "Brightners" and such that counteract that to make a smooth surface
10:53 PM jesseg: but they are trade secrets and so I don't know exactly what chemicals to try or how much, but I have a few that have been suggested but haven't had time to try them yet
11:03 PM ziper1: but that means ECM is stable
11:04 PM ziper1: which is pretty neat
11:04 PM jesseg: well, that was a long conversation ziper :P
11:04 PM jesseg: I wonder if he's done any ECM.
11:05 PM jesseg: Tried it myself on titanium, but conditions weren't all that great.
11:23 PM pink_vampire: fail :(
11:24 PM pink_vampire: Wolf__: jesseg
11:24 PM pink_vampire: :((
11:24 PM Wolf__: eh?
11:25 PM pink_vampire: the tank is leaking
11:35 PM Wolf__: doh
11:35 PM Wolf__: =\
11:37 PM jesseg: How could the tank leak....?
11:38 PM pink_vampire: and also the needle in the flow meter