#linuxcnc Logs

Jan 26 2018

12:42 AM Crom: What a day, blown to hell...
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: im off till later rain in germany
02:12 AM Deejay: moin
03:01 AM Alkabal: hi all
03:02 AM Alkabal: do you know a good micr computer for use with linuxcnc ?
03:03 AM Alkabal: i like to have a very compact system and does not want to use traditional desktop computer
03:03 AM Alkabal: i have try to use beaglebone but this is really to slow
03:26 AM gloops: got to be the last session of buolding today, i have really gotten wanting to build a router out of my system lol
03:27 AM archivist: start using it!
03:29 AM gloops: i cant wait haha, i keep doing a bit of practice on modelling and cam apps im wanting to create stuff now
03:30 AM gloops: i will make a 4 axis machine though, but this one has to pay for it
03:31 AM archivist: 4th axis is just an accessory to the 3 axis for many people
03:34 AM gloops: yeah, i think if i do it it will be a seperate machine, more like a lathe than a mill
03:34 AM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bulldog-5x4-Self-Assembly-Large-Format-Camera-Kit/122582904756?
03:36 AM gloops: hes actually sold one of those, 50 pence of mdf, bit of ally sheet, few knobs
03:37 AM archivist: use proper wood, joints as a real one
03:38 AM archivist: I think he is making a profit with all the missing bits
03:38 AM gloops: i want to make one for myself so ill see what i can come up with, could maybe even score the leather with a dragknife for the bellows
03:39 AM archivist: no scoring the leather
03:39 AM archivist: unless the outline
03:40 AM archivist: I used to have a half plate
03:40 AM gloops: when i looked at making bellows before they made them out of 1 sheet of leather, drew the lines and scored them with a knife to get a nice repeatable crease, it was one page mainly i read probably other ways
03:41 AM gloops: he's got tilt, shift, rise and fall on the front, could have same on the back plate as well
03:42 AM archivist: dont really need on the back as well
03:42 AM gloops: it does increase the movement - some uses, a lot dont have much rear movement though
03:43 AM archivist: although with longer bellows you might need to tilt the back
03:43 AM gloops: £250 for that, add 1 lens used more than £100, needs plates, shutter if not incorporated in lens etc
03:44 AM archivist: there were separate shutter units around
03:45 AM gloops: you can get some pretty pinpoint focus with all movements, like focus one a line or point and have everything else out of focus, effects that cant be achieved with slrs
03:45 AM gloops: or for surveying
03:46 AM archivist: make a sinar in wood
03:47 AM gloops: its doable, its doable by hand but if you can make a working plan, you can make as many as you want with a click on cnc
03:47 AM archivist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sinar_P.jpg
03:47 AM gloops: easy after a router lol
03:48 AM gloops: sbr bearings for rails
03:52 AM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Shen-Hao-TZ45-II-C-Black-Walnut-Wooden-Field-Folding-4X5-Large-Format-Camera/282643523320?
03:52 AM gloops: could make all that cnc
03:52 AM archivist: or the MPP https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M-P-P-MONORAIL-FIELD-CAMERA-KIT-2-RODENSTOCK-LENSES-APO-RONAR-240mm-ANGULON-4x5/172975284090
03:53 AM gloops: i have bid on a few of those
03:53 AM archivist: I stopped collecting cameras a long time ago, still have a few
03:54 AM gloops: i could have had a wooden view camera, went to buy some misc off someone, he had one sat there, wanted £80...i dithered and didnt take it, wish i had
03:58 AM gloops: it is an interesting field archivist, shutters are pretty similar work to clocks i suppose
04:01 AM archivist: I suppose for a compur timer yes else no (blind and leaves)
04:02 AM gloops: see quite a few vintage cameras with some value in working order - shutter not working, nobody bids
04:03 AM uwe__ is now known as uwe_
04:04 AM archivist: I sometimes cleaned the shutters to get them working again
04:05 AM gloops: done a few yeah, various techniques, its often just the old grease thats solidified
04:05 AM archivist: main problem is oily/dirty so they stick
04:09 AM gloops: ive got 2 of these, kershaw curlew II, not common, the III and I are rarer, made in leeds https://ibb.co/cOF3Ob
04:11 AM gloops: got photos of the shutter stripped somewhere, in the mass of data
04:12 AM archivist: used to try and put a film though the various cameras, box camera at a motorcycle race, not so good
04:17 AM gloops: hehe
04:18 AM gloops: old box cameras fast shutter was about 1/30, you need at least 1/60 to eliminate hand shake
04:18 AM gloops: https://ibb.co/fYx03b
04:19 AM gloops: epsilon shutters usually very simple compared to the german counterpart, and not as good or reliable
04:19 AM gloops: there are some good british ones though
04:23 AM archivist: a bit odd that I never took pictures of the cameras themselves
04:25 AM archivist: I was definitely messing at the bottom of the market, 50p to a tenner
04:26 AM gloops: well those poor quality pics are all the rage now - lomography
04:27 AM gloops: i used to buy them at the car boot - anything as you say 50p to a few quid, more if interesting, i just keep my eye out for anything valuable now going for nothing
04:27 AM gloops: got boxes of them
04:28 AM XXCoder: wow quiet day
04:29 AM gloops: the box cameras usually have a long strap, not designed to be held up to the face, let the strap support it and steady it, anyway to the garage
04:29 AM XXCoder: to the garbage we go
04:36 AM jthornton-: morning
04:36 AM XXCoder: yo
04:37 AM XXCoder: jthornton-: remember the basement water issue my home had?
04:37 AM jthornton-: aye
04:39 AM jthornton- is now known as jthornton
04:39 AM XXCoder: they finished sump pump yeserday
04:39 AM XXCoder: concerete is curinh
04:39 AM jthornton: automagic sump pump
04:39 AM XXCoder: yeah
04:39 AM XXCoder: "Small crack in corner but 200% functional " LOL
04:40 AM XXCoder: I'm assuming 20% :P
04:43 AM jthornton: crack in the corner of the sump?
04:43 AM XXCoder: no ad post for phone
04:45 AM XXCoder: kinda looking for phones, as my phone sim is broken
04:45 AM XXCoder: im kinda cheating by forcing 3g mode but it wont last long
04:47 AM jthornton: yea it's friday, do you work tonight?
04:47 AM XXCoder: normally no but will have overtime.
05:57 AM holzjunkie: Hallo,
05:59 AM holzjunkie: kann man eigentlich linuxcnc auch im btr betrieb laufen lassen und wenn ja wie ???
06:05 AM jthornton: was meinst du btr mode?
06:06 AM jthornton: Ich spreche kein Deutsch. Ich benutze einen Übersetzer
06:29 AM jthornton: XXCoder: http://gnipsel.com/images/chickens/nestbox/nest-box-cam-03.jpg
06:29 AM XXCoder: looking
06:29 AM XXCoder: interesting
06:30 AM holzjunkie: dripfeed
06:30 AM jthornton: using my LED flashlight for today, got some red LED 12v side markers on the way for light
06:30 AM jthornton: holzjunkie: no
06:31 AM jthornton: or not that I know of
06:31 AM holzjunkie: thank you
06:31 AM XXCoder: make everything automativc
06:31 AM XXCoder: so it runs maintance free for next 1000 years
06:31 AM jthornton: nice to know when you have eggs in the box especially when it is below freezing
06:32 AM XXCoder: yeah I bet
06:32 AM jthornton: would need a 1000 year supply of food and treats lol
06:32 AM XXCoder: I still wonder if the system where theres a box with openable top to add more trash and only thin slot on side so bugs get in and breed there, but the only exit is into chicken feed area
06:33 AM XXCoder: chickens love bugs if I recall right
06:33 AM jthornton: chickens are omnivores yes
06:34 AM XXCoder: theres such thing as algae reactors. I wonder if its possible to make bug reactors lol
06:35 AM jthornton: that would be cool better yet cricket reactors
06:36 AM XXCoder: cool
07:00 AM pink_vampire: i need help with painting
07:01 AM pink_vampire: i'm soo lost
07:01 AM XXCoder: what kind of painting?
07:02 AM pink_vampire: foam
07:02 AM archivist: cnc the painting
07:02 AM pink_vampire: i'm trying to cover the text on it
07:04 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/4fMHqcX.jpg
07:05 AM pink_vampire: on the top wood glue with brown paper, on the left just white paint
07:06 AM XXCoder: I guess you would need some form of undercoat painting then paint on that
07:06 AM XXCoder: ah yes primer!
07:06 AM jthornton: kills covers everything
07:08 AM pink_vampire: what is kills ?
07:08 AM jthornton: sorry kilz
07:12 AM MarcelineVQ: sikkens for wood, kilz for everything else
07:12 AM MarcelineVQ: idk actually hehe, sikkens just makes a nice wood treatment
07:13 AM MarcelineVQ: Cetol it's called I think
07:13 AM pink_vampire: but the problem is the text is not on the same level
07:13 AM pink_vampire: it pushed in
07:22 AM Todd_Z: Paint with a good primer, light weight spackle, sand, then prime again.
07:26 AM jthornton: trying to make a foam surface plate?
07:42 AM XXCoder: jthornton: lol https://futurism.com/an-automated-cricket-farm-could-bring-bug-based-food-to-the-masses/?
07:42 AM gregcnc: yum
07:43 AM enleth: what's the proper fluid for cleaning cast iron coolant tanks?
07:43 AM gregcnc: https://www.cricketflours.com/shop/
07:43 AM enleth: I've got a lot of dried coolant/oil/chips gunk clinging to the tank walls, removing it mechanically is pretty much impossible
07:46 AM gregcnc: that sounds like no fun. if it was a soluble oil coolant water will do a pretty good job
07:47 AM gregcnc: space art or trash? http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42808180
07:48 AM XXCoder: soon to be part of space trash
07:49 AM enleth: gregcnc: the machine has a lost oil lubrication system, so a lot of the lube ends up in the tank, definitely not soluble
07:49 AM enleth: and I have no idea what type of coolant was used
07:50 AM enleth: so it's probably Mobil Vactra 2 mixed with some kind of water-based coolant
07:50 AM enleth: if it wasn't right in the base of the column, I'd try sandblasting the inside, but it's hard to get any kind of tools in there
07:54 AM gregcnc: i don't know, if pressure washer isn't an option, I'd start trying whatever cleaning chemicals are at hand with course plastic bristle brush. it's going to suck
07:55 AM gregcnc: even a pressure washer didn't work that well for me, but it was just above freezing
07:56 AM enleth: really main problem is that access is only possible through the pump access panel in the back of the machine, which is pretty much like those country veterinarians doing a rectal exam on a cow
07:57 AM MarcelineVQ: I wonder how a degreaser concentrate would do sitting in there, a rubber-safe one, engine cleaner or something maybe. or even in the running mix
07:57 AM enleth: you have to stick your hand in there up against a shoulder to reach the end of the tank
07:58 AM XXCoder: gregcnc: its designed to orbit for 9 months so not too bad
07:58 AM enleth: MarcelineVQ: yeah, I guess I'll try some kind of industrial degreaser, I don't know any local brands though
07:58 AM MarcelineVQ: You'll want to certain it's plastic/rubber safe if it's part of a cooling system :X
07:59 AM enleth: MarcelineVQ: ideall, I'd like to clean up that tank, then paint the inside with a very thick coat of something hard
07:59 AM enleth: *ideally
08:00 AM enleth: it's raw porous cast iron now
08:00 AM enleth: the only saving grace is that it prevented any rust from forming inside as the iron is soaked throughout with oil
08:00 AM gregcnc: it's been like that for how many years? and how many more years would it be before it was a problem?
08:01 AM enleth: almost 40, but whatever is there now will end up being recirculated if I just fill it up and reinstall the pump
08:01 AM gregcnc: filter it
08:42 AM gloops: gunk
08:44 AM gloops: http://www.gunk.com/Home/Products/EngineCleanersDegreasing.aspx?o=
08:47 AM gloops: and/or steamer
08:48 AM gloops: well, so ends todays building session, still pretty near, but so far away from finishing
08:53 AM gloops: probably halved what little deflection there was by adjusting the bearing block, need to remake 2 alu bushes in steel and other bits and bobs
09:19 AM IchGucksLive: hi
09:19 AM IchGucksLive: a truckload of cnc mashines for tomorrows expo
09:19 AM pink_vampire: hi
09:19 AM IchGucksLive: about 5k people expected to see lcnc running
09:20 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/ZIhGxo0.jpg
09:20 AM pink_vampire: how bad it is look?
09:20 AM pink_vampire: i mean the right side
09:21 AM pink_vampire: IchGucksLive: what do you mean?
09:21 AM IchGucksLive: is this your broken bone
09:21 AM pink_vampire: no
09:21 AM IchGucksLive: wall layers
09:21 AM pink_vampire: just foam that i tray to make nicer
09:21 AM IchGucksLive: i like the stone look
09:21 AM pink_vampire: from left to to right
09:22 AM pink_vampire: foam > foam + paint > plastic cover
09:23 AM IchGucksLive: http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/saule_a.jpg
09:23 AM myself: Should I be able to prefix G38.x with G53 to perform probing in machine coordinates?
09:24 AM pink_vampire: myself: yes
09:24 AM myself: Okay, so grbl is implementing it wrong. :)
09:24 AM myself: Opening bug..
09:24 AM pink_vampire: IchGucksLive: why it is look wobbly
09:24 AM IchGucksLive: myself: why not using g91
09:24 AM pink_vampire: myself: this is lonux cnc here not grbl
09:25 AM pink_vampire: linux cnc*
09:25 AM pink_vampire: i can help you with probing with linux cnc
09:25 AM myself: I'm aware! But grbl considers linuxcnc to be the reference implementation. Checking what linuxcnc does is how grbl ascertains whether they're doing it right,
09:26 AM pink_vampire: i'm using the variables in linux cnc to do the probing
09:26 AM myself: So that's really all I needed. I'm babysitting a shitty xcarve and tearing my hair out, but at least knowing that grbl is doing it wrong helps save my sanity a little. :P Someday I'll get a real machine.
09:27 AM myself: s/get/persuade the boss to buy/
09:27 AM pink_vampire: why you using grbl??
09:27 AM pink_vampire: if you need help with linux cnc, i will help you
09:30 AM IchGucksLive: pink_vampire: this is only sanded foam http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/trafalgar_sand.jpg
09:31 AM pink_vampire: if the machine is solid' maybe the tool path is not optimal
09:32 AM pink_vampire: do you have a picture of the tool path?
09:34 AM IchGucksLive: pink_vampire: he already left
09:34 AM pink_vampire: ok
09:34 AM gloops: i should have bought an x carve lol
09:34 AM pink_vampire: why????
09:35 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: you will go ther
09:35 AM IchGucksLive: im off
09:35 AM gloops: bored with making this now, lot of feckin about
09:36 AM gloops: its nearly done, will i be glad to walk away from this job
09:37 AM archivist: http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/The_Bonzo_Dog_Doo-Dah_Band:I%27m_Bored
09:38 AM pink_vampire: O_o
09:38 AM gloops: thing is, im usually quick in what i do, i dont mess about, this job isnt suited for that mentality
09:39 AM gloops: ive took this bstrd thing to bits and back together again 1000 times
09:39 AM pink_vampire: same here
09:39 AM pink_vampire: but you need to remember, it is a hobby
09:40 AM gloops: everything im seeing points to it being worthwhile, its just that last fence to jump
09:41 AM pink_vampire: you need to start make parts
09:41 AM pink_vampire: parts for yourself, and stop build the machine
09:42 AM gloops: dont make any parts for a machine - buy them all
09:42 AM gloops: never ever make a router from steel
09:42 AM pink_vampire: so stop with it
09:42 AM pink_vampire: and try to think why you build it
09:43 AM gloops: cant stop now, deprive myself of the satisfaction of seeing it cut perfectly
09:43 AM pink_vampire: what is a perfect cut ?
09:45 AM gloops: its a matter of honour as well now
09:45 AM pink_vampire: perfect cut on your machine, and on my machine will look different than on 10 tons machine
09:45 AM gloops: ive been saying im building a machine of distinction, i cant back out now
09:46 AM pink_vampire: hehe, all of us,
09:47 AM pink_vampire: but at the end of the day, you need to understand your limitations
09:47 AM gloops: the germans watching, the chinese, - look at the brit, cant even get a router going
09:47 AM Rab: USA here, waiting to gloat at your failure
09:48 AM pink_vampire: what do you want to cut?
09:48 AM archivist: cheese
09:49 AM gloops: pink_vampire this machine will make anything
09:49 AM gloops: anywa gtg accross town in traffic now
09:51 AM pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKZoP9mZ744
10:09 AM JT-Shopp: well crap I just cut out the part with a arc 1/2 size...
10:10 AM pink_vampire: you can machine it again? or it is scrap?
10:16 AM Loetmichel: FINALLY WEEKEND! And i got #1 of 2 all-in-one-pc-demoboxes done for the customer... MAAAN what a load of tinkering... i AM pretty proud though that i got the slots done in one mount, only had to bend out and in a few tabs afterwards... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16956&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
10:16 AM pink_vampire: aluminum?
10:20 AM Loetmichel: yes
10:22 AM pink_vampire: Loetmichel: what is your runout on your spindle?
10:22 AM Loetmichel: smaller than i can measure reliably
10:22 AM roycroft: my new spindle is out for delivery
10:22 AM Loetmichel: somewhere around 0,01mm
10:23 AM pink_vampire: Loetmichel: is the china one 24K?
10:23 AM roycroft: hopefully this one will have enough sense to keep its magic smoke
10:23 AM Loetmichel: yes
10:28 AM pink_vampire: i want to get one, but i can't find a good source for them
10:31 AM sync: ebay
10:32 AM pink_vampire: how can i make sure it will be zero runout?
10:34 AM roycroft: testit
10:34 AM roycroft: test it
10:35 AM roycroft: pink_vampire: i just purchased a new spindle, and got it from amazon.com
10:35 AM roycroft: the price was good, and i added a 4 year extended warranty on it
10:35 AM pink_vampire: is there something better then the china made one?
10:35 AM roycroft: if the spindle arrives and does not meet the spec for runout i shall file a warranty claim
10:35 AM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011971H90/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
10:36 AM roycroft: that is the one i just bought
10:36 AM pink_vampire: if the china one is 200$ what i will get for 1000$?
10:36 AM roycroft: it claims 0.005mm tir
10:36 AM roycroft: if it is greater than that i shall get it replaced
10:36 AM pink_vampire: roycroft: where do you get 220V?
10:36 AM roycroft: out of my vfd
10:37 AM roycroft: i have a 240vac single phase circuit that i can feed to teh vfd
10:37 AM roycroft: and the vfd will output 220vac 3 phase
10:37 AM pink_vampire: in the us??
10:37 AM roycroft: yes
10:37 AM roycroft: almost all power drops in the us are 240vac
10:37 AM pink_vampire: here i have only 115v
10:37 AM roycroft: no you don't
10:37 AM roycroft: you'll have 240vac split phase
10:38 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, where are you?
10:38 AM pink_vampire: ny
10:38 AM roycroft: your power drop will be two hot wires, a neutral, and a ground
10:38 AM roycroft: the two hot wires will be 240vac
10:38 AM jesseg: I mean they might have just run a 110 pair to a little village in Guatemala
10:38 AM roycroft: the neutral will be a center tap on the transformer
10:38 AM roycroft: and will get you 120vac on either side
10:38 AM jesseg: of course some of the infrastructure could be so old maybe it is 110? :P
10:39 AM roycroft: if you have an electric stove or electric heat or an electric clothes dryer you'll have 240v circuits
10:39 AM roycroft: the us has not had 110v in decades
10:39 AM pink_vampire: so to test all over the house and measure between the phases?
10:39 AM roycroft: 220vac was increased to 230vac decades ago
10:39 AM roycroft: and then 240vac
10:39 AM roycroft: if you go to your main breake box you'll see two hot wires coming in
10:39 AM roycroft: the box will have two power buses
10:40 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, just figure out where the kitchen range hooks in and use that :D or clothes drier, unless they are both gas.
10:40 AM roycroft: each will be fed from one of the hot wires
10:40 AM Jymmm: ...and a neutral
10:40 AM pink_vampire: let me see
10:40 AM roycroft: the buses interlace, so every breaker position is on the opposite bus from the one below it and the one above it
10:40 AM roycroft: to get 120vac you use a single breaker and the neutral bus
10:41 AM roycroft: to get 240vac you use a double breaker, which connects to both power buses, and no connection to neutral
10:41 AM pink_vampire: 117v
10:41 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, you can also get step up transformers that step 120 up to 240
10:41 AM roycroft: right, that's nominally 120vac
10:41 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/cbfjLHF.jpg
10:42 AM jesseg: lol
10:42 AM jesseg: no, no, you're not following us here pink_vampire
10:42 AM jesseg: there's always 120 AND 240.
10:42 AM jesseg: 3 wires -- Hot-Neutral-Hot
10:42 AM pink_vampire: but for 2.2KW i need 117v 18.8A
10:42 AM pink_vampire: not here
10:43 AM jesseg: Hot to Hot is 240, and Neutral to either Hot is 120
10:43 AM roycroft: for 2.2kw i would strongly recommend a 240v circuit, not a 120v circuit
10:43 AM pink_vampire: here i have 3 holes in the outlet
10:43 AM roycroft: do you have an electric clothes dryer?
10:43 AM pink_vampire: 110v
10:43 AM roycroft: no, your clothes dryer is not 110vac
10:43 AM roycroft: or 120vac
10:43 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, those are 120v outlets presumably and the extra pin is safety ground
10:43 AM roycroft: we abandoned 110v decades ago
10:44 AM roycroft: as i stated previously
10:44 AM roycroft: nominal voltage coming into a residence in the us is 240vac now, not 220vac
10:44 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, what model number is the drier? is it really a ductless clothes drier?
10:44 AM pink_vampire: 120v
10:44 AM pink_vampire: not 240
10:44 AM roycroft: it was 220vac in the 1940s
10:44 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: This is a 110V @ 20A outlet, of course you have to have that 20A curcuit going to it too, most residetial are 15A https://i.stack.imgur.com/Bymwl.jpg
10:44 AM roycroft: it is a very tiny dryer if it's 120v
10:45 AM Jymmm: roycroft: unless it's a gas dryer
10:45 AM roycroft: https://ask-the-electrician.com/wiring-a-3-wire-dryer-outlet
10:45 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, please see this picture. https://fredsappliance.com/service/understanding-difference-120-240-volt-outlets/
10:45 AM roycroft: i asked if he has an electric dryer
10:45 AM pink_vampire: i have the same but without the pinch
10:45 AM roycroft: there's a picture of a 240v clothes dryer outlet
10:45 AM pink_vampire: she*
10:45 AM roycroft: that's 240vac @30A
10:45 AM jesseg: there are different outlets depending if it's 120v or 240v so of course if you measure one of the 120v outlets you'll get that..
10:46 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/lm7R5iT.jpg
10:47 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, is that what your drier is plugged into?
10:47 AM roycroft: ok, that's a 120vac 15a circuit
10:47 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: Nope, that's 110 @ 15A
10:47 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: and by the layers of paint on that outlet, I'm going to guess you live in a 30+ year old home
10:47 AM pink_vampire: correct
10:48 AM jesseg: does the two narrow prongs mean it's 110 instead of the unequal sized prongs for 120v?
10:48 AM pink_vampire: what is the TR?
10:48 AM Jymmm: jesseg: No, just an old (pre-code) for the olarized outlets you speak of
10:48 AM roycroft: there is no difference between a "110vac" and a "120vac" receptacle
10:48 AM Jymmm: polarized*
10:48 AM roycroft: the us power grid used to deliver 220vac/110vac to residential drops back in the 1940s and 1950s
10:49 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, is that outlet you pictured the one where your clothes drier is plugged into?
10:49 AM roycroft: the voltage was increased to 115vac
10:49 AM roycroft: and then later to 240vac/120vac
10:49 AM jesseg: roycroft, gotcha
10:49 AM roycroft: what is now a 120vac circuit used to be a 110vac circuit
10:49 AM pink_vampire: i got new one
10:49 AM roycroft: it's amperage rating that determines the receptacle type
10:49 AM Jymmm: jesseg: 110V is just habit to say/type for me
10:50 AM jesseg: yeah I knew a LONG time ago they were NP, then they got polarized, and the blade was 15A and the T-blade was 20A.
10:50 AM Jymmm: jesseg: 110/220/440/ etc
10:50 AM roycroft: a 120vac 20A circuit requires a receptacle with a combination vertical/horizontal blade on the hot side
10:50 AM roycroft: a 120vac 15a circuit requires a receptacle with just a vertical blade on the hot side
10:50 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/ZZvLGde.jpg
10:50 AM roycroft: https://www.webstaurantstore.com/all-points-38-1277-duplex-receptacle-nema-5-20r/AP381277.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4c-74or22AIV1pV-Ch2r4gqfEAQYAyABEgJ0q_D_BwE
10:50 AM roycroft: there is a nema 5-20 receptacle
10:50 AM pink_vampire: what the TR mean?
10:51 AM jesseg: Jymmm, understood. I was just confused because the flow of the conversation - I assumed a relationship between statements from different people that were not related :D
10:51 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: TR = Tamper Resistant. Helps prevent the kids from sticking a fork in the socket
10:51 AM roycroft: and excuse me, the combo blade is on the neutral side
10:51 AM roycroft: https://grabcad.com/library/industrial-grade-nema-5-15-duplex-receptacle
10:51 AM Jymmm: jesseg: no worries =)
10:51 AM roycroft: there is a nema 5-15
10:51 AM pink_vampire: i took it because of the nice terminals
10:52 AM roycroft: the 5 designates that it is designed for 120vac
10:52 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: They are annoying to plug things into imo =)
10:52 AM roycroft: a nema 6-whatever receptacle would be for 240vac
10:52 AM roycroft: do you know how a transformer works, pink_vampire?
10:52 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, how old is your clothes drier, roughly. 30 years, like the house? If you purchased it, how much was the drier?
10:52 AM pink_vampire: this one have nice ones
10:53 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/kYNWPSH.jpg
10:53 AM pink_vampire: it is a 110v combo
10:53 AM jesseg: Jymmm, actually yeah I find myself saying '110v' a lot just out of habit :D
10:54 AM roycroft: it's nominal voltage anyway
10:54 AM jesseg: yeah
10:54 AM roycroft: it varies, depending on grid conditions
10:54 AM roycroft: grid voltage is not critical, unless it drops really low
10:54 AM jesseg: and how many amps you're drawing and how long is that extension cord that runs your shop :P
10:54 AM roycroft: it's line frequency that is tightlly regulated
10:54 AM Jymmm: jesseg: =)
10:55 AM pink_vampire: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-4-3-cu-ft-14-cycle-washer-and-8-cycle-dryer-electric-combo-white/5884179.p?skuId=5884179&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=3c184a29-4557-43ef-bc7a-5a9ea059322f&ksprof_id=13&ksaffcode=pg239987&ksdevice=c&lsft=ref:212,loc:2
10:55 AM pink_vampire: this one
10:55 AM roycroft: if your line frequency is 60.5Hz your power utility have a *HUGE* problem
10:55 AM roycroft: but if your line voltage is 104VAC that's fairly normal, although it's on the edge of normal
10:56 AM pink_vampire: it's say 60.0Hz
10:56 AM jesseg: LOL
10:56 AM roycroft: if you live in a region where it gets hot, your line voltage could drop 5-10v during the heat of the day, when all your neighbors have their air conditioners on
10:56 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, roycroft, Jymmm OK his drier IS a 120v "Ductless" drier.
10:56 AM roycroft: that's exactly what it should say, pink_vampire
10:57 AM Jymmm: jesseg: HER dryer =)
10:57 AM jesseg: It uses a dehumidifier to dry the clothes without getting them hot
10:57 AM roycroft: ok
10:57 AM Jymmm: jesseg: pink_vampire is a girl =)
10:57 AM roycroft: that still does not mean that the drop to the house is 120vac instead of 240vac
10:57 AM jesseg: Jymmm, oh, thanks! sorry pink_vampire !
10:57 AM pink_vampire: lol
10:58 AM roycroft: it's entirely possible that there are no 240vac circuits in the house, but the power drop is still almost certainly 240vac
10:58 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, so only thing we want a picture of now is your electrical breaker panel
10:58 AM roycroft: preferably with the cover off :)
10:58 AM * Jymmm waits to see glass screw in fuses =)
10:58 AM roycroft: some breaker boxes do not have a main breaker
10:58 AM jesseg: even if the lid is opened we can see if there are 2 switches of fuses for the main
10:58 AM pink_vampire: anyway now i have 1hp spindle the go up to 1000rpm, and i take very large cuts with it.
10:59 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: Take a hpoto of your breaker box, with the cover off if you can
10:59 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: ... but be careful if you do
10:59 AM pink_vampire: why do i need 2200W 3hp spindle?
10:59 AM roycroft: i don't think anyone told you that you do
10:59 AM roycroft: i have no idea what your application is
10:59 AM jesseg: I dunno it might be a guy thing, pink_vampire. More power is always better.
11:00 AM roycroft: all i know is you said you were looking for a new spindle with no runout
11:00 AM pink_vampire: lolll
11:00 AM roycroft: i told you what i bought
11:00 AM Rab: My whole street used to brown out every few minutes, for months...we eventually figured out it was an old lady's AC with a seized motor. The thermal cutout in the motor would trip when it overheated, then reset when cool. Somebody must have bypassed the breaker, too.
11:00 AM roycroft: i didn't tell you to buy the same thing
11:00 AM pink_vampire: 200W zero runout is all i want
11:00 AM roycroft: i know that i need 2.2kw
11:00 AM roycroft: my current router for my router table is 2.2kw
11:00 AM roycroft: and i know that i push it hard
11:00 AM roycroft: i would not want a spindle with less power
11:01 AM roycroft: you're not going to get zero runout
11:01 AM roycroft: but if you can settle for 0.005mm you can get that without going to tremendous expense
11:01 AM enleth: anyone here from Germany and had any experience with local epoxy flooring manufacturers?
11:01 AM pink_vampire: i love smallll micro endmills
11:02 AM Rab: Spindle physical size should be appropriate for the axes which will carry it. That's one reason to go smaller.
11:02 AM roycroft: 0.005mm is pretty minimal
11:02 AM roycroft: it's 0.0002"
11:02 AM roycroft: if you want better than that you need to get a big pile of $100 bills
11:03 AM roycroft: and save some of those $100 bills for some high precision collets
11:04 AM pink_vampire: roycroft:
11:04 AM pink_vampire: what is the stuff that you cut?
11:05 AM roycroft: the application for the spindle i linked to a while ago is a router table
11:05 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/ztbRsLq.jpg
11:05 AM roycroft: so wood
11:05 AM pink_vampire: those are the type of endmills that i work with
11:05 AM roycroft: and i promise, i'll be more than happy with 0.005mm tir on my spindle
11:06 AM roycroft: sure
11:06 AM pink_vampire: parts: https://i.imgur.com/94rzIqT.png?1
11:06 AM roycroft: and 0.005mm runout is not good enough for those?
11:07 AM pink_vampire: 5 microns
11:07 AM pink_vampire: it is awesome
11:07 AM pink_vampire: NSK is 1-2 microns
11:07 AM roycroft: specs are meaningless in and of themselves
11:08 AM pink_vampire: nsk is 3000$
11:08 AM roycroft: if your application is fine with 0.005mm spindle tir then there is no sense in investing a lot more money to get 0.001mm spindle tir
11:08 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: i have seen the usual china spindles with ER11 or ER16 anywhere from "not measureable with hobby devices (a.k.a <0.01mm) up t0 0,3mm runout
11:09 AM roycroft: loetmichel: i've not been looking at the smaller ones
11:09 AM jesseg: a third of a mm is kind of pushing gross
11:09 AM roycroft: but the 2.2kw er20 spindle i ordered and linked to above has a spec of 0.005mm tir
11:09 AM Loetmichel: even that worst one was easily remeided by putting it on the lathe and "redremel" the seat for the collet
11:09 AM pink_vampire: 0.3 runout is unusable
11:09 AM roycroft: and honestly, if it's an order of magnitude greater it will still work for me
11:09 AM roycroft: FOR ME
11:10 AM roycroft: not necessarily for everyone
11:10 AM jesseg: yeah with 0.3mm you're using your endmill as a fly cutter :P
11:10 AM roycroft: 0.3mm would be unacceptable
11:10 AM pink_vampire: micro fly cutter LOLL
11:10 AM jesseg: just hope you have the endmill indexed so that the cutting edge is what's doing the cutting
11:10 AM roycroft: but if it's greater than 0.003mm i can send it back as defective
11:10 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: ... depending on its orientation ... if its 90° to the runout and a 2 flute it will not cut at all
11:10 AM pink_vampire: roycroft: you are a funny guy
11:11 AM pink_vampire: 4 flutes
11:11 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: i do PCB milling with mine
11:12 AM pink_vampire: smt/bga/qfn?
11:12 AM Loetmichel: 0,1mm wide insulation channes are doable. so my runout on that unit cant be THAT bad ;)
11:12 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: no bga
11:12 AM Loetmichel: Standard stuff
11:12 AM roycroft: frankly, i'm more concerned that my new spindle not let the magic smoke out than that it meet the runout spec precisely
11:13 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, cool! That's what I do with my 2.5 axis engraver - (WARNING LOUD SOUND) http://videoflier.com/movies/1476390184502171433281
11:13 AM roycroft: once the smoke has made an escape runout is irrelevant
11:13 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16815&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
11:13 AM roycroft: runout actually *is* zero at that point since it no longer rotates
11:13 AM jesseg: and drilling: http://videoflier.com/movies/1492062520814684577398
11:13 AM pink_vampire: roycroft: the lines on the front is 1/16" endmill https://i.imgur.com/E5PP0Je.png
11:14 AM pink_vampire: i'm a pcb artist
11:15 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: the pcb kiss the tool holder
11:15 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6NQ-05A0qc <- even louder ;)
11:15 AM pink_vampire: my pcb https://i.imgur.com/DpxLVfd.jpg
11:15 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, huh? oh, yeah, it's not a full 3 axis. X and Y are CNC. Z is just an air actuated axis -- it comes down and presses against the target and that regulates the cut depth.
11:16 AM jesseg: sweet Loetmichel !
11:16 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: never saw something like that
11:17 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, your machine is way louder and way cooler than mine, but my sloppy recording just had the sound way too loud because camera was on AGC... :D
11:17 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: its not loud at all. the shopvac that drives the vaccum table is the loud thing
11:18 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, it's an old old purpose made surface engraver for marking lettering in surfaces. It can follow surface height changes because it's just air spring loaded. It was given to me as stepper motor operated but I upgraded it to brushless DC servos
11:18 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, ahh OK
11:19 AM pink_vampire: it is sound cool, but i will stay with my servo on the Z axis :)
11:19 AM Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMXxjT4nNxg <- acg as well, but you can hear the steppers. its actually pretty quiet... and thanks to my age i dont hear that high pitched whine from the spindle bearings any more in RL. only on the video ;)
11:19 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, so have you gotten anything that works great for plating through holes? I've done brass rivets and carbon+glue activated copper electroplating and not been satisfied.
11:20 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: i did some bungard beryllium copper rivets back in the days
11:20 AM jesseg: Activating the holes for plating seems to be the real tricky part.
11:20 AM Loetmichel: and even made a few multilayer boards at home, but thats chemical goo in masses.
11:21 AM jesseg: LOL
11:21 AM Loetmichel: yeah, IIRC the solution to activate the holes contained palladium. it was insanely expensive and pretty poisonus IIRC
11:21 AM roycroft: i hear the whine, and i'm old
11:22 AM roycroft: BUT
11:22 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: i hear it too... on the vid
11:22 AM Loetmichel: but not in real life
11:22 AM jesseg: that's a sweet machine you got there Loetmichel
11:22 AM Loetmichel: its not loud enough
11:22 AM roycroft: a nice, chinese 80mm water cooled spindle is about 80dB @ 50cm
11:22 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: just a regular chinese CNC 6040 with some mods
11:23 AM roycroft: my porter-cable 7518 router with the universal motor is about 95dB @ 50cm
11:23 AM roycroft: i can live with the whine :)
11:23 AM Loetmichel: i meant the ~16khz tweet, not the ~8khz whine, btw, roycroft
11:24 AM * roycroft can still hear 16kHz
11:24 AM roycroft: i'm fortunate that my hearing is still really good
11:24 AM roycroft: it's also kind of a bane
11:24 AM roycroft: things that annoy the heck out of me others can't hear at all
11:24 AM * roycroft wonders if he's part canine
11:25 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16429&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
11:25 AM Loetmichel: just a standard gantry router.
11:27 AM jesseg: well seems to work pretty good!
11:28 AM IchGucksLive: hi
11:28 AM Loetmichel: yes, it does
11:28 AM jesseg: Howdy IchGucksLive
11:28 AM Loetmichel: and considering that its prety much in use 8 hours a day for close to six years now i am pretty surprised that it still lives ;)
11:29 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, so how fine of traces can you reliably get?
11:29 AM Loetmichel: jesseg: about 0,2mm wide traces with 0,1mm insulation around
11:29 AM jesseg: here's video of my PCB playing experiment: http://videoflier.com/movies/1488316104723273500907
11:29 AM Loetmichel: anything smaller and i have to resurface the vacuum table
11:30 AM jesseg: Loetmichel, that's real good. Mine won't get anything close to that -- I think my spindle is sloppy
11:30 AM Loetmichel: because the insulation bits are 30° V-bits
11:30 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, nice looking PCB!
11:30 AM Loetmichel: so any (even slight) height variations can really FU your day
11:31 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: how did you plate a non conductive material?
11:32 AM jesseg: Since mine follows the surface, depth is very well controlled. However, I have some slop in my spindle bearings or bit depth micrometer mechanism, so there's some XY slop that means two parallel passes may be closer or farther from eachother if done different directions, and so a trace might have zero width if I make them too narrow.
11:32 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, that is the Achilles heel of the whole process.
11:33 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, I mixed carbon powder with varnish to precoat the holes with a conductive surface so I could plate them.. But that doesn't work well because its unreliable AND whats worse is when yo solder, the varnish burns out and releases the copper
11:34 AM pink_vampire: thanks for the pcb comment :)
11:34 AM Jymmm: jesseg: your splash warning should include baking soda or another neutralizer
11:34 AM pink_vampire: how it is done in the industry?
11:35 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, There's a method of activating the holes with an ammonium complex with copper hypophosphite, but unfortunately any hypophosphite chemicals are impossible to get in USA.
11:35 AM pink_vampire: BTW the gorilla glue work SWEET!
11:35 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: industrial they have some chemical that bonds to the FR4 and makes it conductive
11:36 AM Loetmichel: IIRC its palladium based
11:36 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, In industry, it's done with a series of very complicated steps and treatments with exotic expensive chemicals in strict control of temperature, time, and purity
11:36 AM Loetmichel: but i may remember wrong
11:36 AM jesseg: yeah I think palladium is involved
11:36 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, what does gorilla glue work sweet for? graphite activation of through holes?
11:37 AM pink_vampire: we need to make whatsapp group
11:37 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, yeah I always saw PCBs done with nice curved traces on old radios as a kid and I always thought how nice they were. Don't see that much nowdays.
11:37 AM Loetmichel: isnt gorilla glue for woods?
11:37 AM Loetmichel: a PVAc type glue?
11:37 AM jesseg: It's a polyU glue, mildly foaming.
11:37 AM jesseg: like "Great Stuff" but not as foamy
11:37 AM Loetmichel: ah, that yellow stuff?
11:37 AM Jymmm: jesseg: FWIW... last post... http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=26087
11:38 AM Loetmichel: <- german, we have none of those aviable here ;)
11:38 AM jesseg: but more foamy than poly urethane wood finish
11:38 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, what cad program do you use for your PCBs?
11:38 AM pink_vampire: after https://i.imgur.com/tP5AjAm.jpg
11:38 AM pink_vampire: solodworks <3
11:39 AM pink_vampire: before https://i.imgur.com/c4MK1ph.jpg
11:40 AM jesseg: Jymmm, what am I to take from the last post?
11:42 AM Jymmm: jesseg: Not sure, lol, I might have misread it, was just seeing it as a alternative to what you can't get, I could be totally wrong =)
11:46 AM pink_vampire: here is paint time!
11:46 AM jesseg: Jymmm, oh yeah.. I've scoured that and tons of over forums posts written by people trying to solve this problem.. There seems to be only one known effective and practical DIY method and it uses copper hypoposhite
11:46 AM jesseg: which is impossible to get in US :P
11:48 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: try slip plate is a graphite based paint, and NOTHING take it out, I have marks from it all over my machine
11:49 AM jesseg: Jymmm, thanks for the baking soda advice... added it.. also fixed spelling on rince->rinse :P
11:51 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, interesting... Is it a hardening paint, or a dry film lub?
11:51 AM Jymmm: jesseg: No worries, I speak typo =)
11:51 AM jesseg: LOL...
11:51 AM jesseg: well you speak my language then
11:52 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: dry lubricant
11:52 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, specifically, if it were on smooth glass, would it wash off with warm soapy water?
11:53 AM pink_vampire: NO! it will stick and even scrub it with acetone so NOTHING to it.
11:53 AM jesseg: Even on smooth glass?
11:54 AM pink_vampire: to take it off i've used dremel with brush wheel
11:55 AM JT-Shopp: nice I just got another machine to build right after I finish the current build... things are looking up for sure
11:55 AM pink_vampire: it's a lubricant it you try to scrub it act as a lubricant
11:55 AM jesseg: Interesting. I wonder how a dry powdered carbon could adhere so firmly to a smooth surface. I can understand how it could be impossible to remove from wood
11:55 AM SpeedEvil: https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/956942816655040513 when you typo just a leetle on your coordinate entry.
11:55 AM SpeedEvil: (Ariane 5 17 degrees off intended orbit)
11:55 AM pink_vampire: https://www.zoro.com/slip-plate-graphite-dry-film-lubrcnt-aerosol-12-oz-33203g/i/G2655791/feature-product?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInOiGu5n22AIVj1YNCh2m1wXmEAQYASABEgIyYPD_BwE
11:55 AM jesseg: pink_vampire, do you have an oh meter handy? I'm really curious to know what the resistance of a surface treated with has over a distance of a few mm
11:56 AM pink_vampire: not right now
11:56 AM pink_vampire: i'm painting, but sure,
11:57 AM jesseg: LOL yes don't get out the graphite lube when you're painting. Bad combination.
11:57 AM pink_vampire: i can paint a microscope slide with it
11:58 AM pink_vampire: ok
11:58 AM pink_vampire: i'm going to do it now
11:58 AM pink_vampire: I'm curious too
11:59 AM jesseg: please don't contaminate your painting work. I'm in no hurry LOL
11:59 AM pink_vampire: jesseg: it is fine
11:59 AM jesseg: Thanks :D
11:59 AM pink_vampire: sjust a small psss
12:00 PM jesseg: I know how graphite gets everywhere. Then when you get it all cleaned up, it's still everywhere.
12:02 PM Loetmichel: jesseg: especially nice when the bottle with graputhe dust for the door locks falls down, pops open and sprays about 1/3 of its contents into a running VFD... MAN was that a fireworks.
12:02 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, if the lub has a liquid carrier, you might have to let that dry before getting a good resistance reading
12:02 PM pink_vampire: i did the painting
12:02 PM jesseg: HAHA... ugh....
12:02 PM jesseg: Loetmichel, like actual fire fireworks, or just a really significant dust cloud?
12:02 PM Loetmichel: actual fireworks
12:03 PM jesseg: right because it's conductive
12:03 PM Loetmichel: i found parts of the plastic housing of the VFD on the other side of the workshop
12:03 PM jesseg: and there's almost 400 volts in there
12:03 PM Loetmichel: 700V
12:03 PM Loetmichel: DC
12:03 PM jesseg: oh a 480v VFD?
12:03 PM Loetmichel: 400V three phase
12:03 PM jesseg: gotcha
12:04 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/27Onbv4.jpg?1
12:04 PM Loetmichel: 685V DC on the caps
12:04 PM pink_vampire: before ^
12:04 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/2OZNQa9.jpg
12:04 PM pink_vampire: after ^
12:04 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: ^
12:04 PM jesseg: Did it bubble the styrofoam?
12:04 PM jesseg: or melt it?
12:05 PM pink_vampire: hoo yeah
12:05 PM jesseg: so it does have a liquid carrier
12:06 PM pink_vampire: let me see
12:07 PM pink_vampire: it contain Toluene and Acetone
12:08 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: ^
12:10 PM jesseg: ok those will melt styro. Two common fast evaporating carriers
12:10 PM jesseg: Once it's dry, if you touch it, does it turn your finger black, pink_vampire ?
12:11 PM pink_vampire: i will let it seat about an hour, I put vert thick layer
12:11 PM pink_vampire: it is not fully dry
12:12 PM jesseg: Thanks very much, by the way. I really appreciate it!
12:12 PM pink_vampire: no problem
12:13 PM pink_vampire: i got ton of help from this place
12:13 PM pink_vampire: time to give back :)
12:13 PM gregcnc: sds lists some oil
12:14 PM jesseg: ahh, so it may not dry completely
12:15 PM gregcnc: may not be oil. might be solvent
12:16 PM pink_vampire: it will dry ans become hard
12:17 PM pink_vampire: I have white paint all over and graphite spot on the floor :)
12:19 PM jesseg: lol
12:21 PM gloops: what are you doing pink_vampire?
12:21 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, Loetmichel, I even tried preplating through holes with blasts of copper vapor.. That did NOT work. I still want to try magnetron sputtering to see if I can directly sputter a preplate on in a vacuum lol
12:22 PM pink_vampire: i'm painting the foam
12:22 PM jesseg: What're you building there, pink_vampire ? Almost looked like non-90 degree angles
12:23 PM gloops: any pics?
12:25 PM pink_vampire: i'm try to take one
12:25 PM roycroft: what kind of primer are you using on that paper-covered foam?
12:25 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/dcaC6K1.jpg
12:26 PM pink_vampire: ta paint is cover it
12:26 PM roycroft: there is a killz product that would be perfect for that application
12:26 PM roycroft: it contains a fairly high amount of shellac, and uses alcohol as the carrier
12:26 PM gloops: looks like kingspan foam
12:26 PM pink_vampire: but there is some deep text in it
12:26 PM gloops: not spraying?
12:26 PM roycroft: the achhol dries very quickly, and the shellac builds up a coating that does not sink in much
12:27 PM roycroft: you can use latex paint over that as a top coat
12:27 PM pink_vampire: i will paint
12:27 PM gloops: few wafts over with high build primer first
12:27 PM roycroft: alcohol won't dissolve the foam as much as other common solvents used in paints
12:27 PM pink_vampire: just to hide the blue "lowes" and then cover it with plastic film
12:28 PM roycroft: and it dries so quickly it doesn't have much of a chance to penetrate in the first place
12:28 PM gloops: or use water based acrylic primer, seal it first
12:29 PM roycroft: i believe the foam is covered with paper
12:29 PM roycroft: which is why i would not use an acrylic primer
12:29 PM pink_vampire: i will call to this project, "fuck this paint job, I'm a machinist"
12:29 PM gloops: ahh
12:30 PM roycroft: water-based would damage the paper
12:30 PM roycroft: solvent-based would soak through the paper and damage the underlying foam
12:30 PM gloops: shouldnt do, you can paint wallpaper
12:31 PM jesseg: Ahh, Slip Plate is good to 400F, which means it must have a binder. Too bad it's not good to 400C, it could withstand soldering temperatures :D
12:31 PM pink_vampire: the goal is to make it less ugly, not pretty
12:32 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: after i'm done painting, I will try some stuff with the slip plate
12:33 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, thanks so much! If I go runs some errands I'll leave my IRC client here so I can read of the results!
12:33 PM jesseg: when I come back, that is.
12:33 PM pink_vampire: ok
12:33 PM pink_vampire: i will waiting for you if you want
12:34 PM IchGucksLive: pink_vampire: he is marrid
12:34 PM pink_vampire: me too
12:35 PM jesseg: either way, I can just scroll up and find it though. if you include my nickname, my irc client flags the channel for me and puts the text in red to help me find it
12:35 PM IchGucksLive: im off
12:35 PM pink_vampire: but i never say no to a chemist
12:35 PM jesseg: Cya IchGucksLive !
12:35 PM pink_vampire: lol
12:35 PM pink_vampire: ok
12:37 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: it is try to touch
12:38 PM jesseg: Does it shed any black onto your finger if you touch it? what if you rub it ? and what if you scrape it with a Popsicle stick?
12:38 PM pink_vampire: and it's basically short circuit all over
12:38 PM jesseg: Really! Fascinating! What ohms range? 1k?
12:38 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: yes, like pencil lead
12:39 PM jesseg: fascinating...!
12:39 PM jesseg: Can you try on the 100/200 ohms range?
12:39 PM pink_vampire: about 3K per 1 mm
12:40 PM jesseg: What about 10mm? 30k?
12:40 PM pink_vampire: 6k end to end
12:40 PM jesseg: That's not too bad. It might actually work.
12:41 PM pink_vampire: how do i copper plate it?
12:41 PM jesseg: When I'd use the polyurethane wood finish mixed with graphite powder, a little PCB with about a hundred holes or so would have about 20 ohms from top to bottom layers before etching,
12:41 PM pink_vampire: i have copper tube
12:42 PM pink_vampire: let me take a picture
12:43 PM jesseg: pink_vampire, you need a few chemicals -- battery acid (Get it from auto parts store or lab supply store), copper sulfate (I got my as Root Kill from Home depot!!) plus some PEG 3350 laxitave (Drug store/walmart) and distilled water is best, and a very small qty of hydrochloric acid
12:43 PM jesseg: The recipe I'm using is here: http://videoflier.com/movies/1488316104723273500907
12:44 PM jesseg: oh but that's for a big batch, scale as needed
12:45 PM jesseg: but you just mix those up, connect a little power supply up with the positive to your copper pipe and the negative to your target object
12:45 PM pink_vampire: sounds crazy dangerous
12:46 PM jesseg: nah, just don't dump the undiluted acids on yourself.
12:47 PM jesseg: Frankly, once it's all mixed up, I reached into it with my bare hands numerous times but I did rinse off right away when done LOL
12:47 PM pink_vampire: 2nd floor apartment...
12:48 PM jesseg: lol
12:48 PM pink_vampire: at lest I have a mill here LOL
12:49 PM jesseg: LOL.. anyone complain about the noise?
12:49 PM pink_vampire: no
12:50 PM pink_vampire: it seat on a very thick wood base, and anti fatigue mat
12:50 PM jesseg: yeah, I put my PCB engraver on big blocks of rubber foam. Otherwise it vibrates the whole house
12:51 PM pink_vampire: and you saw the endmills, so the chip load is almost zero, so no vibrations
12:51 PM jesseg: yeah
12:51 PM jesseg: in my case, it's the axis acceleration/deceleration that carries through the walls the most
12:52 PM jesseg: so the foam makes a significant difference
12:52 PM pink_vampire: and convectional side milling is very quite
12:52 PM pink_vampire: you also have a mill?
12:53 PM pink_vampire: my largest chips https://i.imgur.com/Z0a5grd.png
12:54 PM jesseg: yeah, in addition to the PCB engraver (which is CNC) I have a Taiwanese bridgeport clone, but it's not CNC (yet)
12:55 PM jesseg: nice chips :D
12:55 PM pink_vampire: one day...
12:55 PM pink_vampire: I love chips
12:55 PM FinboySlick: pink_vampire: You made an Energizer battery out of a solid chunk of aluminium!
12:56 PM pink_vampire: no, but it is a good 3d machining project
12:57 PM pink_vampire: do you think solidcam give free licence for hobby use?
12:59 PM * roycroft would be interesting in seeing some convectional side milling
12:59 PM Tom_L: http://sentinel.solidcam.com/
01:00 PM Tom_L: they'll give you a 30 day trial
01:00 PM roycroft: is there a little fan that blows the chips around?
01:01 PM pink_vampire: Tom_L: I know about the 30 days, but i mean for good...
01:02 PM Tom_L: call them and ask
01:02 PM pink_vampire: they have very nice probing
01:03 PM pink_vampire: I'm not sure if it will work with linux cnc
01:04 PM jesseg: there, I ordered a can of Slip Plate... will have to see how well that works.. :D
01:07 PM pink_vampire: we need to try to melt it with the soldering iron
01:08 PM jesseg: yeah I'm pretty sure the binder will give it up at 650F
01:08 PM jesseg: but worth a try!!!
01:09 PM pink_vampire: yes
01:09 PM pink_vampire: one sec
01:10 PM jesseg: actually, I wonder if baking the PCB at 650F would burn off the binder, leaving pure heat proof carbon film, thus allowing plating still, but not causing outgassing during soldering later
01:11 PM pink_vampire: meltttttt
01:12 PM pink_vampire: even on the lowest settings
01:13 PM jesseg: lol it just melts?
01:13 PM pink_vampire: yes
01:14 PM jesseg: did it appear to be outgassing a lot? i.e. bubbling?
01:14 PM pink_vampire: no
01:15 PM pink_vampire: pic is on the way
01:17 PM Loetmichel: jesseg: i doubt FR4 can withsatand 650F
01:17 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/XI1nwxC.jpg
01:17 PM Loetmichel: for any prolonged time
02:03 PM jesseg: Interesting results there, pink_vampire! thanks!
02:05 PM jesseg: Loetmichel, well kind of has to handle that temperature.. it's the temperature that solder melts at.. and with hot air, pan, or oven soldering, the board pretty much gets that hot. It does get soft and flexible but it doesn't seem to damage it.
02:05 PM pink_vampire: jesseg: did you saw the flowers?
02:06 PM jesseg: lol in on the microscope slide?
02:07 PM jesseg: Actually I hadn't noticed anything as other than scribbles but now that you mention it, bottom left almost looks like flowers
02:12 PM fragalot: ._.
02:13 PM pink_vampire: after all is a soldering iron
02:14 PM gloops: if nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through
02:15 PM pink_vampire: O_o
02:16 PM pink_vampire: all my hands covers with the foam glue
02:17 PM fragalot: pink_vampire: enjoy your blackened hands for a few weeks then
02:18 PM gloops: get some surgeons gloves
02:18 PM gloops: very useful for stuff like that, and doing burglaries
02:18 PM pink_vampire: i got gloves.. but it was after the fact..
02:19 PM pink_vampire: so i cover my hands with very thick layer of wood glue
02:19 PM gloops: barrier cream
02:19 PM pink_vampire: and i'm trying to pill it off
02:20 PM fragalot: PVA glue comes off easily, but PU glue will not until you shed your skin
02:23 PM pink_vampire: it 80% work!!!!!!!!!
02:23 PM gloops: Murphy's law basically states that anything and everything that CAN go wrong, eventually WILL
02:24 PM Jymmm: I have a 2KVA UPS that uses 2x 12V@10AH batteries in series. I'd like to use car/marine batteries instead (repurposing the UPS as backup power instead) Any suggestions on the batteries? I'm thinking 90AH'ish deep cycle and shove them under the house
02:25 PM fragalot: Jymmm: NiFe batteries; basically indestructible.
02:25 PM Jymmm: fragalot: But $$$$ sadly =(
02:25 PM fragalot: 1x $$$$ > 4x $$
02:25 PM `Wolf: long as you vent the hydrogen somewhere and check the batteries once in a while to make sure the water/acid is good should work
02:26 PM Jymmm: Wolf__: what should work?
02:26 PM `Wolf: I generally hate UPS units because mine all end up cooking the SLA batteries
02:27 PM Jymmm: `Wolf: Right
02:27 PM `Wolf: the deep cycle cells
02:27 PM pink_vampire: the thicker the wood glue the easy is to pill it off with the PU glue
02:27 PM Jymmm: `Wolf: That's why I was thinking deep cycle instead
02:27 PM fragalot: `Wolf: that's fine though because those SLA batteries are maintenance free during their whole lifetime!
02:27 PM `Wolf: yeah, all 3-5 yrs of it lol
02:27 PM fragalot: :p
02:28 PM `Wolf: I’m swapping some of mine out for DC-DC backup controllers
02:28 PM fragalot: I used those for one of our customers that had a swan problem
02:28 PM `Wolf: no point of going 120v > 12v dc > 120v > 12v device
02:28 PM Jymmm: I'sd rather not get "specialty" battery that I can't get locally/wally world/auto parts store
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: 120VAC batteries for the win!
02:29 PM fragalot: every now & again, a swan would fly into the high voltage lines & the region they were in would go dark for about 6 seconds until the swan burned up
02:29 PM `Wolf: lol
02:29 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: I'll take two please,
02:29 PM fragalot: Jymmm: in that case go to your local battery farm & pick some good crop there
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: wallymart has deep cycle for boats RV's etc
02:30 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: is deep cycle "better" than those used for tractors/atv's etc ?
02:30 PM jesseg: Jymmm, there are some complexities with using FLA's in place of SLAs/AGMs.. First of all, the SLA/AGMs don't stratify, so they float charge at a lower value. FLA's (Flooded) need periodic 14v charging to make them bubble a bit to stir up the water with the acid and sulfate.
02:30 PM CaptHindsight: yes, deep cycle
02:31 PM `Wolf: lawn tractor/atv battery won’t have crap for AH
02:31 PM Jymmm: jesseg: so pull them off the ups and put on a "real" charger is what you're saying?
02:31 PM jesseg: Jymmm, so if you use flooded style marine/automotive, you should charge them up to 14.7v for half an hour every week.
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: a bunch of lithiums would be better but they aren't cheap
02:31 PM fragalot: LiFe!
02:31 PM `Wolf: just buy a wrecked tesla
02:31 PM Jymmm: jesseg: once a year is more realistic
02:32 PM jesseg: Jymmm, or if you have a "real" charger that's regulated at 14.7 just leave them on the UPS. that's what I do, except mine's just a 12v UPS
02:32 PM fragalot: :-)
02:32 PM * Jymmm googles for 365 day timer relay =)
02:32 PM jesseg: Jymmm, I dunno, a year is a long time.. I'd want to more emulate the situation in your car where you start it up and blast charge it to 14.7v ever day for 15 minutes.
02:32 PM jesseg: maybe put it on a shaker table
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: find an abandoned Tesla, bury under house, win!
02:32 PM jesseg: batteries in cars last a LOT longer than ups batteries
02:33 PM fragalot: OR, you can use this brilliant setup
02:33 PM fragalot: you buy solar panels
02:33 PM fragalot: you buy a tesla
02:33 PM fragalot: you hook up the tesla to the solar panels
02:33 PM fragalot: so it can charge while you're out at work
02:33 PM fragalot: and then at night it can power your home
02:33 PM Jymmm: fragalot: Um, snow =)
02:34 PM jesseg: Actually using LiIon or Lipo is very very interesting to me. You'd need a cell balancer circuit but that should work really well
02:34 PM fragalot: Jymmm: so the charging it whilst you're away at work doesn't bother you?
02:34 PM Jymmm: AGM??? https://www.walmart.com/ip/12V-80Ah-AGM-Deep-Cycle-Battery-for-RENOGY-PV-SOLAR-PANELS/140778764
02:35 PM Jymmm: fragalot: eh
02:35 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Model-S-24V-250Ah-5-3kWh-444-Panasonic-Batteries/183026526805
02:36 PM jesseg: Other thing about AGMs/SLAs is they just don't last very long.. lol
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: they use the same batteries in those car jump starters and they don't last long
02:37 PM jesseg: Jymmm, LOL.. I thought that name looked familiar. Chromebattery makes JUNK JUNK JUNK. I bought one for my moped once because they were cheapest. First battery arrived malformed and leaking, so they sent another free, and it lasted a year
02:37 PM Jymmm: jesseg: Your panties are about to get VERY wet... This guy is AWESOME you have to watch most of his videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A8R9aUbwkw
02:38 PM Jymmm: jesseg: his whole setup is open source
02:38 PM jesseg: I just went and looked on the shelf and the bad malformed battery is a "Chromebattery"
02:38 PM Jymmm: jesseg: good to know, ty
02:39 PM jesseg: It's statistically highly improbable that my panties will get any wetter than Jesse James's did.
02:39 PM Jymmm: jesseg: 10KW solar setup just using USED 18650's
02:39 PM jesseg: cool
02:40 PM jesseg: The biggest pack of 18650's I built was 50 cells -- 5 series 10 parallel. Flew an 8 foot wingspan model plane on it.
02:42 PM Jymmm: https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Maxx-Marine-Battery-Group-Size-29DC/20531539
02:42 PM jesseg: that's a better bet
02:42 PM Jymmm: a comment says 110AH
02:44 PM jesseg: Jymmm, A few years ago I designed and set up a tracking solar off grid system for my sister - 10 panels (100W each at 17v) and we started her out on 12v marine batteries, but last year switched them out with a dozen 6v golf cart batteries
02:44 PM jesseg: 6 parallel 2 series
02:45 PM Jymmm: jesseg: why did you swamp them out?
02:45 PM Jymmm: swap*
02:45 PM jesseg: I think they those batteries claimed to be like 130aH or something
02:46 PM jesseg: The marine batteries just didn't last very well.. A few years and they were shot.
02:46 PM jesseg: and she wanted more storage capacity, and golf cart batteries seemed like a logical thing to try.
02:46 PM Jymmm: I just need 24V, so not "that" bad I guess using 4x6V
02:46 PM jesseg: I really want to switch her over to using a leaf, volt, or tesla battery. Just been to busy :P
02:46 PM jesseg: plus there's the cost of getting one.
02:47 PM Jymmm: Since this is just an experiment using what I already have, just trying to be cheap
02:47 PM jesseg: yeah a couple marine batteries are a worthy first try :D
02:47 PM Jymmm: Well, not really an experiment, it's for when the power goes out every winter without having to pull out the generator
02:48 PM jesseg: I'm using a marine battery on my UPS with one of those little cheap LED volt meter modules on it so I can just look over and see the voltage.. Hovers around 12.5v
02:48 PM Jymmm: jesseg: when charging you mean?
02:48 PM Jymmm: (...via the ups itself)
02:48 PM gregcnc: walmart variety deepcylce are cheap barely acceptable for their application, but real ones cost money
02:48 PM jesseg: yes, the UPS floats it low, charging it as if it's a SLA/AGM
02:49 PM Jymmm: jesseg: Well, maybe I can use a timer relay to flip to a real charger once a week or something
02:49 PM jesseg: But when I first connected up a real charger, at first the battery was only drawing a few amps which means it was stratified and/or sulfated. But I left on the big charger and after a while it rose up to like 30A for an hour or two then tapered back down.
02:49 PM jesseg: Jymmm, that's what I want to do is a timer and a relay
02:50 PM Jymmm: jesseg: Not a timer AND a relay, I mean a "timer relay" =)
02:50 PM jesseg: oh. well that would work too :D
02:50 PM Jymmm: jesseg: https://cdn3.volusion.com/abccm.ugtmf/v/vspfiles/photos/Timer_Relay-2.jpg?1500981017
02:50 PM jesseg: I'd probably do a micro controller and a relay
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: Jymmm is always low budget
02:51 PM jesseg: cute
02:51 PM fragalot: copper wire attached to the hour hand of a 2nd hand clock
02:51 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: That's "Ghetto Fabulous" to you
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: did you ever explode after finding a better deal a day after you purchased something?
02:51 PM gregcnc: understood, but don't be surprised
02:51 PM Jymmm: fragalot: We're talking backup power, not explosives =)
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: like in a cartoon
02:52 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Nope, just buy the cheaper, and return the other one =)
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: don't you have a backup generator?
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: lol
02:52 PM gregcnc: jesseg what time frame was your 5S10P battery?
02:53 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Yes, but it's difficult for others to pull start
02:53 PM jesseg: of course, but it takes some time to start up and computer would have dumped by then. UPS is there to run things while generator is getting started if the power is out long enough to call for it :D
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: do you need a UPS to kick in just long enough to start up the generator?
02:53 PM gregcnc: I sold a guy an 8S4P 18650 pack around 1999 or so?
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: ok
02:53 PM gregcnc: for a glider
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: so you can get by with cheap batteries
02:53 PM jesseg: gregcnc, I built it years ago, in a day I suppose.. Not sure I understand your question. I still have it.
02:54 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: I already have the 2KVA ups, so just need batteries and that should last 2 hours or so, which is enough before needing to pull out the generator
02:54 PM jesseg: gregcnc, Oh this was like 8-10 years ago
02:55 PM enleth: jeez, I've been looking for any info on identifying those oil meter units in my BP for three weeks now and nothing came up
02:55 PM gregcnc: photo?
02:55 PM gregcnc: enleth^
02:55 PM enleth: Bijur doesn't recognize them, TRICO does not reply to email, distributors have no idea
02:55 PM enleth: sec
02:56 PM enleth: gregcnc: https://i.imgur.com/uBMhtvJ.jpg two of those next to a Bijur FJB
02:56 PM enleth: they're mechanically compatible (if a bit longer)
02:56 PM enleth: but I have no idea how to map those markings to the industry standard 000 to 5 flow ratios
02:56 PM enleth: I've got ones marked 22, 24 and 25
02:57 PM enleth: no other markings save for a direction arrow
02:57 PM jesseg: might have to test them with oil pressure and measure the flow
02:57 PM enleth: they're clogged, that's why I'm replacing them
02:58 PM jesseg: LOL.. OK..
02:58 PM jesseg: are they just an orifice restricter?
02:58 PM enleth: I'm pretty sure they have a check valve too
02:58 PM jesseg: I take it they don't come apart for cleaning
02:58 PM enleth: nope
02:59 PM enleth: even if you manage to take them apart and then put them back together, they supposedly never work properly afterwards
02:59 PM jesseg: What are they for? I've never seen anything like that before...
02:59 PM jesseg: to regulate the correct oil flow to the ways when you hit the hand pump?
03:00 PM enleth: uh, that's probably the most common type of cyclic system metering units in the world
03:00 PM `Wolf: one shot oiler metering valves
03:00 PM enleth: in my case, the pump is automatic, it gets a shot of oil into the system at regular intervals
03:00 PM enleth: but yeah, that's the same thing you'd use with a manual one-shot system
03:01 PM enleth: Bijur FJB/TRICO DSM
03:01 PM enleth: they're interchangeable
03:01 PM enleth: even the Chinese make drop-in replacements now
03:01 PM jesseg: Oh gotcha, like a little spring loaded piston thing so each time oil comes it lets so much in then stops and recharges when oil pressure stops
03:01 PM enleth: but you have to know the flow value to replace those
03:01 PM enleth: yep
03:02 PM enleth: and there's 8 different flow rates, 000 through 5
03:02 PM enleth: all current manufacturers stick to this system
03:02 PM jesseg: I wonder if my Taiwanese BP clone has them
03:02 PM enleth: so it doesn't matter if you buy an FJB-0 or a DSM-0 or a chinese something-0
03:03 PM enleth: it should let the same amount of oil through
03:03 PM Jymmm: jesseg: It does, but they are inside out ;)
03:03 PM jesseg: Inside out....?
03:03 PM enleth: especially if you replace the whole system with one manufacturer's units, as they're made to have 2x the flow of the next lower unit on the scale
03:03 PM enleth: but they all claim it's compatible
03:04 PM enleth: anyway, I have no idea what the 22/24/25 scale is
03:04 PM enleth: I *think* it's reversed, 22 is more flow than 25, looking at where they are in the system
03:04 PM fragalot: enleth: 1/XX" ?
03:06 PM enleth: I found exactly two forum posts by a Practical Machinist user mentioning he had replaced those with TRICO units and somehow knew what was what, but he did not provide any details or a source of his info
03:06 PM enleth: and he's not responding to PMs or emails
03:06 PM enleth: in fact, I don't think he posted anything for a couple years now
03:06 PM gregcnc: https://shophardinge.com/product.aspx?partNo=BP%2028303702
03:07 PM enleth: gregcnc: thanks. how the hell did that not show up in my search, I have no idea.
03:08 PM jesseg: enleth, well I did figure out a way you could replace those... Take one and cut it open carefully, and measure the displacement of the piston.. LOL. Then you know how much oil they delivered.
03:08 PM gregcnc: they also list the bijur units. so who knows why this particular one is different
03:08 PM jesseg: oh, got it solved? lol
03:08 PM enleth: jesseg: not yet, there's no info on how this maps to the standard flow scale, but it's a start
03:09 PM enleth: gregcnc: I guess I'll have to email them and ask if they know anything useful about replacing that thing with Bijur parts
03:09 PM jesseg: oh OK. well, if you cut it open you should be able to measure the stroke and bore, and that shuold tell ya
03:10 PM enleth: jesseg: the valve is a separate mechanism from the restrictor nozzle as far as I understand
03:11 PM jesseg: ahh
03:11 PM enleth: jesseg: it's pressure-operated, but opens at a very small pressure independent of the restrictor orifice
03:11 PM enleth: it's not supposed to control flow, just to prevent backflow
03:11 PM enleth: I could cut them open to compare orifice sizes between the 3 types I have
03:12 PM enleth: but that probably still won't tell me how they relate to Bijur parts
03:12 PM fragalot: so it's a check-valve that closes after a certain amount of liquid has passed?
03:12 PM enleth: no, it closes after liquid has stopped flowing
03:12 PM jesseg: Oh... it isn't actually an inherently volumetric mechanism...
03:12 PM enleth: it's a cyclic system
03:12 PM fragalot: if it closes after the liquid stops, is it not just a bog standard check valve with an orifice?
03:13 PM enleth: fragalot: yes, it is
03:13 PM enleth: but WHAT SIZE orifice?
03:13 PM fragalot: alright
03:13 PM gregcnc: https://en.industryarena.com/forum/bp-series1-cnc-lube-meter-units--171014-2.html
03:13 PM gregcnc: post 17
03:14 PM enleth: gregcnc: what was the exact google search phrase you used?
03:14 PM gregcnc: http://www.interlubesystems.co.uk/downloads/interlube_77.pdf
03:14 PM enleth: I'm sure this wasn't in the first 4 pages of whatever I tried
03:15 PM enleth: it's either my search bubble giving me shitty results thanks to google trying to be helpful, or I couldn't think of something obvious to search for
03:15 PM gregcnc: "bijur im24"
03:15 PM gregcnc: it was first hit
03:15 PM enleth: eh
03:15 PM enleth: I was trying more generic terms because I knew these are not bijur parts
03:16 PM enleth: well, thanks
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hillary+Step/@27.98785,86.9250261,862m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m11!1m5!8m4!1e1!2s101375559112418817452!3m1!1e1!3m4!1s0x39e8549fb4c02fe5:0x203e089fe5bb1137!8m2!3d27.9870255!4d86.9251974?hl=en-US has a phone number and hours posted, the reviews are hilarious
03:16 PM gregcnc: once I saw hardinge sold the bijur as well, tht's what i tried, common if I want cross reference
03:16 PM enleth: and it makes sense all the results are UK-based
03:16 PM enleth: my BP is assembled in the UK
03:17 PM enleth: now why would they mix Interlube and Bijur parts is beyond me
03:17 PM gloops: should be a good un enleth
03:17 PM pink_vampire: CaptHindsight: funny!!
03:17 PM gregcnc: "Was great up my friend fell to his death. 4.5/5 would recommend to a friend"
03:17 PM enleth: maybe they ran out of Bijur units and used whatever was at hand while waiting for a shipment?
03:17 PM pink_vampire: Elevator was slow, only real complaint. The Five guys at the top was a bit greasy but overall great time!
03:17 PM enleth: the manifolds etc. are genuine Bijur parts
03:19 PM gregcnc: we'll never know
03:20 PM enleth: no matter, I can actually order the replacements now
03:21 PM gloops: the non standard parts were probably later shop made replacements
03:21 PM gloops: in shop
03:22 PM enleth: nope, they are actually standard - by Interlube
03:22 PM fragalot: can't have those shop made replacements made outside the shop, gloops
03:22 PM enleth: for some reason they use their own flow designations
03:22 PM enleth: funny thing is, I'll be replacing the whole system including manifolds, because the chinese only make the metric versions with M8 threads - Bijur, TRICO, etc. offer all those parts in M8 and 5/16-24, and the latter is what my Bridgeport has now
03:23 PM gloops: well im just assuming the machine has had a previous working life - will have had maintenance work and new parts etc
03:23 PM enleth: but buying everything in metric is still cheaper than getting new non-chinese flow units
03:24 PM fragalot: not to mention superior
03:24 PM * fragalot runs
03:24 PM enleth: gloops: actually, I found two brands of flow units in a place that was most definitely not serviced before as evidenced by the factory paint job
03:25 PM gloops: british steel yesterday won an order to sell 3000 tonnes of steel to china
03:25 PM fragalot: gloops: that's because china wants it back
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: saw that
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: must be for something special
03:25 PM enleth: we have a saying here, "it's like hauling timber to the forest"
03:26 PM gloops: chinese steel is ok for making cheap frying pans stuff like that
03:26 PM fragalot: enleth: what if it's a nature reserve?
03:26 PM gloops: if you want steel for cranes - uk
03:26 PM fragalot: gloops: or cutlery
03:26 PM fragalot: the UK did make some fine stuff
03:26 PM gloops: or anything
03:26 PM CaptHindsight: British Steel supply Steel CLIK with special profiles - crane rails, track shoe long bar and cutting edges
03:26 PM gloops: best carbides
03:27 PM enleth: fragalot: I don't think many sayings can stand up to a proper scrutiny of logic
03:27 PM CaptHindsight: British Steel has already supplied 4,650 tonnes of special profiles for the Yangshan development with a further 3,000 tonnes to follow
03:27 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, for the important stuff
03:27 PM fragalot: I have to say though
03:28 PM fragalot: one of my Li-ion battery charger is chinese labeled "FOR DOMESTIC USE IN CHINA ONLY"
03:28 PM fragalot: and it is one of the highest quality ones I own
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: to help build world's biggest cargo port in China
03:28 PM fragalot: PCB looks clean, all of the protection circuits appear to be designed as they should, and i'm fairly sure they used glass filled nylon instead of plain ABS
03:29 PM CaptHindsight: "For forigner Only" "Do not serve with rice"
03:29 PM gregcnc: probably a copt they don't want to get caught selling
03:30 PM enleth: the Chinese don't lack the ability to produce quality stuff, what they do lack is the inclination to give a shit about whether something cheap they make is going to be of any use whatsoever
03:30 PM fragalot: ^
03:30 PM enleth: some things just CAN'T be made that cheap and still be useful/safe/work at all
03:30 PM CaptHindsight: it's the Chinese way
03:30 PM enleth: it's impossible
03:30 PM enleth: but they do it because someone will buy that stuff
03:31 PM CaptHindsight: how much you buy now?
03:31 PM gloops: well, i have it on good authority from people in steel that the chinese still dont know enough about carbides
03:31 PM gloops: seems unlikely because the information is everywhere
03:32 PM CaptHindsight: http://britishsteel.co.uk/news-events/special-profiles-wins-contract-to-help-build-worlds-biggest-cargo-port-in-china/
03:32 PM fragalot: gloops: but at the same time it's soooo cheap that for non-production use, or throwaways they are brilliant
03:32 PM CaptHindsight: “Our years of expertise and quality rails from British Steel have definitely helped us win most of the jobs in the market, not only in China but also in Vietnam, Brazil, Thailand, India, etc.”
03:32 PM enleth: it would be better if some of the lowest quality products weren't made at all, because the customers would know right away that they just can't get that thing this cheap - but a manufacturer with no qualms about usefulness will produce it cheaper
03:32 PM fragalot: and as endmills go, the carbide chinese ones are sharpened so much better than the HSS crap
03:33 PM CaptHindsight: the only steel extruder I could find was in England
03:33 PM CaptHindsight: was interested in making steel t-slot framing
03:34 PM gloops: i think uk industry could make a recovery now the £ is down to a reasonable level, some good engineering left and growing
03:35 PM Rab: Unistrut?
03:35 PM fragalot: £ should go down further imho
03:35 PM fragalot: i wanna go on holiday this summer
03:35 PM fragalot: :P
03:36 PM gloops: yes thats still going Rab
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: I think unistrut is rolled
03:36 PM enleth: gregcnc: heh, that forum thread even has a photo of the oil manifolds under the table with all the tubes connected to their respective oiling points - that's going to be useful as I forgot to take a photo when I took those manifolds out
03:37 PM gregcnc: oh that's great, does teh manual no specify their positions?
03:37 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, it is.
03:38 PM Rab: These folks are in USA: https://www.deecometals.com/custom-metal-extrusions/steel-extruded-profiles
03:38 PM enleth: gregcnc: the maintenance manual does not have a detailed lubrication system diagram
03:38 PM enleth: gregcnc: kinda weird, as it does contain very detailed replacement procedures for almost all mechanical subsystems
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: yeah found them
03:39 PM enleth: including info on how to re-dowel the ballscrew nuts after replacement
03:39 PM enleth: I was surprised that a field manual intended for customer use would detail such a procedure
03:41 PM enleth: (the nuts are pinned using precision ground dowels in reamed holes, new nuts do not have those holes at all and you have to drill them in place after replacement and alignment, ream one size bigger and put in new dowels)
03:42 PM gloops: drilling ballnut in place
03:43 PM enleth: well, the drilling is actually in a bracket around the nut
03:43 PM enleth: but the bracket is factory attached
03:43 PM enleth: and the manual is perfectly clear on one thing - never ever loosen the screws that attach the bracket to the nut
03:44 PM enleth: there's wording to the effect of "you'd fuck it up irreparably and have to order a new ballscrew asembly"
03:45 PM gloops: hmm, sounds like its bolted up in a jig or something
03:45 PM enleth: I think there was also "or send it back for re-alignment and grinding"
03:47 PM enleth: generally when that manual says "irreparable", they usually mean "irreparable without special factory equipment"
03:48 PM Deejay: gn8
03:49 PM gloops: well, sometimes its difficult to say, is this just an attempt to retain all the service work by BP?
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: tough fix even with special machines http://www.rotaryeng.net/rod-thru-case2.jpg
03:51 PM pink_vampire: what is that?
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa90/wrustle/ToolChangerCrash2.jpg
03:52 PM fragalot: pink_vampire: that's 2 rods going through a case
03:53 PM pink_vampire: how it is happened?
03:53 PM enleth: gloops: I don't believe so, such warnings were only included for obvious precision assemblies
03:53 PM gloops: rotary engines were often considered unserviceable
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: and the really hot cycle on the dryer https://i.imgur.com/G4Eqj1S.jpg?1
03:54 PM gloops: enleth well such jobs are probably better in the hands of experts anyway
03:54 PM roycroft: my prius engine case looked like that a year ago
03:54 PM roycroft: i was driving up a hill and i heard *pop*
03:54 PM roycroft: and then smoke came out everywhere
03:55 PM roycroft: there were three holes in the block where the broken rod went through
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: any signs before the boom go crash bang?
03:55 PM roycroft: no
03:55 PM roycroft: there was plenty of oil, fuel economy was fine, and it was running fine
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.machinistlife.com/this-cnc-crash-comes-robert-on-facebook-mazak-qt15-the-guy-left-a-boring-bar-in-and-smashed-it-at-100-into-the-panel-behind-the-chuck-that-had-to-make-a-pretty-good-noise-thanks-for-sharing/
03:56 PM roycroft: however, when my mechanic pulled the engine he said there was a huge amount of black sludge in the oil pan
03:56 PM roycroft: i'd only had the car for a short time, and it had 168k miles on it
03:56 PM roycroft: but the oil looked clean
03:56 PM gloops: lol
03:56 PM roycroft: my mechanic said that the dealer *had* to know it was toast, but just changed the oil and put it on the lot
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: nice
03:57 PM roycroft: anyway, $3k and a 60k mile engine later, and i was back on the road
03:57 PM roycroft: i'm getting 5mpg better fuel economy with the new engine
03:57 PM roycroft: but i don't think i'll ever recover the $3k in fuel savings
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: sounds like the first engine was neglected
03:57 PM roycroft: yes
03:57 PM roycroft: and i made my mechanic give me a 1 year warranty on the replacement engine
03:58 PM roycroft: so i know he spent some time finding a good one
03:58 PM roycroft: but yeah, that hole looks familiar
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: thats not too bad for an engine swap
03:58 PM roycroft: i think i have some pictures of my holes
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: with warranty
03:58 PM roycroft: i'll look when i get home
03:58 PM roycroft: it's a prius
03:59 PM roycroft: the engine is barely bigger than a lawn mower engine :)
03:59 PM CaptHindsight: does it come out the bottom along with the trans?
04:00 PM roycroft: i think he pulled it from above
04:00 PM roycroft: but i wasn't around when he was doing the swap, so i'm not sure
04:00 PM roycroft: it's not an air-cooled volkswagen though :)
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: in the old days it was a lass than a day job to swap engines, without power tools
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: lass/less
04:02 PM gloops: ridiculous how cars are made now
04:03 PM roycroft: the engine was $1500 and labor was $1500
04:03 PM roycroft: so he got 18.85 hours labor
04:03 PM roycroft: folks at the shop tell me it took him a whole week to do the swap
04:04 PM roycroft: but mine is the first prius he's worked on
04:04 PM gloops: on the old fords and british cars you could reach all the gearbox bolts from above using any old spanner
04:04 PM gloops: these days a clutch change is many hours work, half the car has to be stripped
04:04 PM MarcelineVQ: they stopped doing that, making accessible motors, around 95
04:04 PM roycroft: in my '57 chevy apache pickup you could fit half a football team underneath the hood, and you could rebuilt the engine with about four wrenches and a screwdriver
04:05 PM roycroft: and it guzzled gas and polluted like crazy
04:05 PM roycroft: i'll take a modern vehicle any day, even with the tradeoff of no longer being able to backyard wrench on it
04:05 PM MarcelineVQ: at 3k a mechanic visit? :X
04:05 PM roycroft: that i don't like wrenching on cars makes it easier for me to take that position :)
04:06 PM roycroft: i would rather pay someone $1500 to swap the engine than for me to spend a week doing it myself
04:06 PM roycroft: absolutely
04:06 PM gloops: you can have a modern engine AND accessibility though
04:06 PM CaptHindsight: 3/8, 1/2, 9/16, 5/8 sockets and wrenches did about everything
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: the crank pulley would have a larger bolt
04:07 PM gloops: i did a steering pump on a french car few months, just ridiculous, - how do i get that bolt out - the RADIATOR has to come off
04:08 PM enleth: gloops: more to the point - Series 1 Bridgeports were, I believe, mostly sold as tool room machines, so the customer could reasonably be expected to be able to perform extensive repairs and part replacement on their machines, but not necessarily to have any capacity or experience needed for high precision work, as they were usually in a completely different business that just used heavy machinery
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/The_engine_of_a_1969_Camaro_SS..jpg this much room was common
04:09 PM enleth: the one I have was in a tool room in a furniture factory
04:09 PM gloops: course the radiator isnt a couple of screw clips these days, its 50 8mm bolts holding swathes of plastic around it
04:09 PM enleth: they used it to make/fix spares for furniture making machines
04:09 PM roycroft: a lot of that has to do with conserving space and weight
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: service is often an afterthought
04:11 PM roycroft: i disagree there
04:11 PM roycroft: service manuals are written as the product is designed
04:11 PM gloops: yes that sounds reasonable enleth
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: ease of service
04:11 PM roycroft: things are complicated enough that they have to be
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: my biggest beef now is with ECU's
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: especially when they program them to just act up randomly or be really picky about coils, injectors etc
04:13 PM CaptHindsight: lock you in to dealer parts
04:13 PM gloops: because cars are a service industry now
04:15 PM gloops: looks like ownership of cars will soon be phased out anyway, youll just dial a car and pay as you go
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: yeah no anonymity when traveling
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: maybe motorcycles will be the exception
04:19 PM gloops: automated speed limit fines just came in on one of our motorways, every inch is under camera, 24/7
04:19 PM CaptHindsight: can't wait for the self driving car races
04:20 PM roycroft: traditionally (meaning before the 1980s or so) european cars were generally built to tighter specs than american cars, volkswagens notwithstanding
04:20 PM roycroft: and the reason for that is at least in part that europeans tend not to wrench on their cars as much as americans do
04:21 PM roycroft: for one thing, eurpeans don't generally have the space to do that - they don't have big garages like folks here do
04:22 PM enleth: roycroft: there's another aspect to the space/population density reason
04:22 PM enleth: for a good chunk of european population, owning a car is just not something very important
04:22 PM roycroft: yes, that too
04:23 PM roycroft: the overall point being that american cars (and volkswagens) were designed for backyard mechanics to wrench on them
04:23 PM enleth: cities are close together, public transport is almost everywhere and densely connected, there are no suburbs in the US sense of that word at all
04:23 PM roycroft: european cars expected to be serviced by professionals, and therefore could be designed and built to tighter tolerances
04:23 PM roycroft: yes, i'm assuming that backyard mechanics are not as skilled as professionals
04:24 PM roycroft: i don't think that's a bad assumption in the general case
04:24 PM gloops: i dunno, i did some fair jobs on the roadside when younger, change a mini rear subframe, stuff like that, people took engines out on the street
04:24 PM roycroft: do you consider that your mechanical skills are on par with the average european, or perhaps a bit better?
04:25 PM nallar is now known as Ross
04:25 PM gloops: there were a lot more mechanically minded people before industry was scaled down
04:25 PM roycroft: product designers have to design for the norm, not the execption, if they intend their products to be successful
04:25 PM enleth: my impression is that in the US, you *must* own a car unless you live in one of the biggest cities, to be able to do most pretty basic things like shopping, as even the suburbs, which technically are parts of cities, are planned with that in mind - so there's a certain cultural significance to cars
04:25 PM enleth: that is just not there in Europe
04:25 PM gloops: most people have clean hands jobs these days, dont know anything about engines
04:25 PM roycroft: sadly that is the case
04:27 PM enleth: and with that cultural significance, comes the perceived need to be able to service the car to adhere to the image of a proper American, especially a husband/father/homeowner or whatever cultural motif
04:28 PM enleth: which made a lot of sense in the past, when instant communication wasn't a thing, way more people lived in remote areas (because almost everywhere qualified as remote), and having a working means of transport could have been a matter of life and death
04:29 PM gloops: enleth work has changed though here, you didnt need a car when the factory or coal mine was 300 yeards from your house, a lot of people travel 20 miles to work now
04:31 PM enleth: and I guess this is all still valid for ranchers, lumberjacks and other people who do work and live with their families in remote areas and need a car they can fix with stuff that fits in the trunk
04:33 PM gloops: i cant remember the dates, but until very recently in england, most people never went more than 10 miles from the place they were born during their lifetime
04:33 PM gloops: about the distance you can walk, and return in day
04:35 PM enleth: gloops: I don't know much about the public transport network in the UK (I had only been once, and to a major city), but it seems to be like the rest of the Europe - dense enough for most people to be able to commute without a car
04:36 PM gloops: yeah you can bus or train just about anywhere, but theres journey time, cost, convenience etc
04:36 PM gloops: and people want a car for recreation and so on anyway - so they use the car for work as well
04:38 PM gloops: if i need to be at a workplace 10 mile away for 7AM , i can set off at 6.30 AM in the car, for the bus its probably 2 buses, set off at 5.30AM
04:39 PM enleth: but you can live without a car
04:39 PM enleth: in a US suburb, not really
04:39 PM gloops: yes, easily
04:39 PM gloops: yes thats true
04:39 PM enleth: completely different planning standards
04:41 PM gloops: there are cornfields as big as england, they say
05:02 PM chopper79: Hello All.... Came across a really odd issue that has me very puzzled. When running a program and I hit the ESC key on the keyboard the machine does not stop. Instead it travels for about 3 more inches and then stops. This happens in all 3 axis directions. I am running a master build form about 1 month ago. I have not done any updates since then and using Axis as the interface. Hardware is a 7i92+7i76. Question is has anybody had this issue or know of w
05:04 PM chopper79: Should mention that this happens only after I have paused the program using P on the keyboard. Then if I hit ESC is when the movement happens. Sorry forgot to mention that.
05:11 PM pcw_mesa: sounds like a bug in master
05:11 PM pcw_mesa: have you updated to the latest?
05:15 PM pcw_mesa: you would think that pause dumps the motion queue so abort is almost a no-op (but am just guessing)
05:21 PM chopper79: I have not updatd yet.
05:21 PM chopper79: I agree Pause should stop motion ques and Esc should end everything.
05:22 PM chopper79: queues
05:24 PM chopper79: Not able to update this machine at the moment, but was just checking to see if anybody else has came across this. Just an odd thing that I do not remeber being there as I have 3 other machines running master (different versions) and those basic functions always work just fine so I figured that the version
05:24 PM chopper79: i am running on this build would be good for those basic functions also. I will keep messing around and try to do an update over the next week.
07:25 PM roycroft: hmm
07:25 PM roycroft: my new spindle has arrived, and i have a concern about it
07:25 PM roycroft: it came with a user manual, which my old one did not
07:26 PM roycroft: and the manual clearly states "when replace the spindle bearings, professional and technical person and special tools is necessary."
07:26 PM roycroft: i know i can come up with a hammer, vice grips, and a beat up screwdriver
07:26 PM roycroft: but a wobbly vise with a broken handle might be kind of tough to find
07:34 PM Kevin`: you don't have to worry too much about it. little known fact, a normal vice will work just as well
07:35 PM Kevin`: I wouldn't be suprised if the bearings have a specific preload requirement
07:38 PM roycroft: there are two pairs of bearings that are installed back-to-back
07:38 PM roycroft: a pair of 7005 and a pair of 7002
07:38 PM roycroft: there is no mention anywhere of a preload requirement
07:39 PM roycroft: and someone here mentioned that if they're installed back to back like that they generally don't need to be preloaded
07:39 PM roycroft: my plan is to not have to replace them for a while
07:39 PM roycroft: but my plan for the previous one was to keep the magic smoke from making an escape
07:39 PM roycroft: and that plan did not work out all that well
07:40 PM roycroft: anyway, the power connector for the old one does not fit the new one
07:41 PM roycroft: it's almost dinner time, my shop is cold, so i think it will be tomorrow when i start testing this new one
07:43 PM roycroft: keeping in mind that this "user manual" is written in engrish, it says that the rotational speed is 1-2.4 kr/min
07:43 PM roycroft: i'm assuming that really means 10,000-24,000rpm
07:43 PM roycroft: since the spindle says 24,000rpm right on it
07:44 PM roycroft: and that means that i should set 167Hz as the low speed
07:44 PM roycroft: that's useful information that i did not have with the other one
07:46 PM roycroft: it also says "the foltage and frequency of medium frequency power supplying to the spindle should be consistent with the technical parameters of tspindle, spindle speed can change by adjust frequency, while the voltage is also proprotional to the change"
07:46 PM roycroft: i take that to mean that if i want to slow the spindle down 10%, i reduce the frequency by 10% and the voltage by 10%
08:37 PM jesseg: roycroft, yes, voltage should be scaled linearly with frequency, otherwise the core will saturate and it'll burn up
08:38 PM jesseg: and yes, RPM is a function of frequency mostly, but also affected a bit by torque induced inductive "slip"
09:15 PM roycroft: yes, i understand that inductive slip is inherent in 3 phase inductive motors
09:15 PM roycroft: thanks for the clarification on the voltage/frequency bit
09:16 PM roycroft: my vfd has settings for "low", "medium", and "max" frequency and voltage
09:17 PM roycroft: i assume that if i set those all to sane values the vfd will figure out how to match voltage and frequency as i adjust the frequency
11:18 PM jesseg: roycroft, I don't know what the low/medium/max settings are for.
11:19 PM jesseg: Mine has a max and a min setting I think -- I tell it the maxmum voltage and maximum frequency, and then it linearly keeps them at a 1:1 ratio based on that
11:19 PM jesseg: and I think there's a minimum speed it will try to do too, but don't remember.
11:31 PM ziper: is 50 cents a piece too much to pay for a lot of mill cutters
11:36 PM jesseg: lol I don't even know what a mill cutter is
11:36 PM jesseg: like a flat endmill?
11:36 PM jesseg: if they are good tools sounds like a super good deal to me
11:37 PM jesseg: if they are heavily rusted or blue from getting too hot or badly chipped then maybe not
11:37 PM jesseg: but endmills -- good non-Chinese ones -- are expensive
11:37 PM jesseg: and Chinese ones don't hold up very well, at least not the cheap ones.
11:39 PM ziper: mostly endmills, some ball mills and idk if this is a reamer or what
11:39 PM ziper: a few around 1/2 inch and most smaller
11:42 PM ziper: marked spain, canada, yugoslava (lol)
11:42 PM jesseg: klol
11:42 PM jesseg: lol
11:43 PM jesseg: I'd definitely spend $10 to $20 at that rate without taking too much time to think :P
11:44 PM ziper: some of them looks like they have had another cutting surface on the shank half
11:45 PM ziper: since the 'cleveland' is cut off, I assume that isnt factory
11:45 PM ziper: but i'm not sure who would do that
11:47 PM ziper: korea, japan, poland, 'union'
11:49 PM jesseg: lol
11:49 PM jesseg: How many is in the lot?
11:50 PM ziper: 20 or 30
11:51 PM ziper: i'
11:51 PM ziper: 'll count and measure them in the morning
11:51 PM jesseg: yeah sounds like a good deal to me. Unless you just already have so many you'll never run out :P