#linuxcnc Logs
Jan 22 2018
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:25 AM Cromaglious_: Ugh... Gonna have to grab some more money! DAMN CARS!!!
12:28 AM XXCoder: roycroft: china usually do crap on bearings
12:29 AM XXCoder: also, dag that video. working on floor also. great for back :P
12:29 AM Cromaglious_: Wife's laptop died. had to get a new one. Back brakes on 1995 Honda Odyssey, just parts was $800. Dryer just took a shit. I also have to replace the dryer vent
12:34 AM Cromaglious_: I still haven't gotten the Cadillac into the shop for a tranny yet...
12:56 AM roycroft: xxcoder: the spindle i purchased was supposed to come with premium bearings, made in germany
12:56 AM XXCoder: oh
12:56 AM XXCoder: thats weird
12:56 AM roycroft: and doing some research, there are two major variants of that spindle:
12:56 AM roycroft: the first with chinese bearings, and has three bearings
12:56 AM roycroft: the second with german bearings, and four bearings
12:56 AM roycroft: mine has four bearings
12:57 AM roycroft: i have not identified them yet though
12:59 AM XXCoder: odd
01:32 AM gloops: not long now
01:42 AM gloops: for once i will be happy to be tidying up!
01:42 AM gloops: im gonna clean and polish and put everything away in its place
01:45 AM Contract_Pilot: Trying to find a 7+15 SATA 90 Degree Male Flat Flex to90 Degree Female is another daunting task.
01:52 AM gloops: only thing im missing is a nut for a ballscrew, not checked the thread, guessing m12 fine
01:53 AM gloops: i have noticed though that chinese parts seem to work to imperial sizes not metric
01:54 AM gloops: like something will be 1.5 inches, or 38mm, 38mm seems an arbitrary size to make something
02:00 AM Contract_Pilot: Yea, caught up on sleep get to play with spindle in the morning..
02:02 AM Deejay: moin
02:02 AM gloops: howdy
02:13 AM Contract_Pilot: this Drive Bay hasroom to fit a 15mm drive but the connector is for a 9.5mm height need to make it taller or get a very flat extension cable.
05:01 AM IchGucksLive: hi
05:02 AM IchGucksLive: Rain all snow gone Rivers will rice quick downstream
05:35 AM Longbow: Hello!
05:35 AM Longbow: anyone using nativeCAM?
05:36 AM Longbow: When setting the tool change / mill change; When I start the program I do not get the prompt to change the tool in spindle?
05:38 AM Longbow: It just goes with whatever tool is in the spindle? Kinda strange
05:38 AM archivist: did you tell it to change tool
05:39 AM Longbow: Where? I just added the operation "mill change" befor my pocket milling op
05:45 AM gloops: Ichs uses nativecam
05:46 AM gloops: might be something on his youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmwhCL92ZQRSVqFe3jGwJSQ
06:09 AM Longbow: ok
08:16 AM gregcnc_: roycroft if you want the spindle bearings to last, put in good bearings. They will cost what the spindle did though.
08:21 AM jesseg: I suppose there's not any sort of air bearings for such an application... *wishful thinking*
08:22 AM gregcnc_: of course there are, but at china spindle cost?
08:22 AM jesseg: what about DIY air bearings? :D
08:23 AM gregcnc_: if you know how
08:23 AM jesseg: if they have no rubbing moving parts :P
08:23 AM gregcnc_: I have a small westwind airbearing spindle. never tried it though
08:24 AM archivist: two types, those with small clearance and self made float, and air pressure supplied
08:25 AM jesseg: Fascinating! Is the second type forthcoming?
08:25 AM jesseg: or was that both types?
08:25 AM gregcnc_: we are talking pressure fed
08:26 AM gregcnc_: http://www.westwind-airbearings.com/airBearing/
08:27 AM jesseg: Fascinating! Definitely worth DIY experimentation
08:28 AM gregcnc_: surface finish and balancing is not trivial
08:28 AM jesseg: And they can actually handle the force of running a milling bit?
08:29 AM jesseg: yeah I imagine you'd have to get an excellently centric and smooth surface
08:29 AM jesseg: and balancing would certainly require a special jig
08:29 AM archivist: at high RPM that they run, the milling forces are lower per rev
08:29 AM jesseg: oh gotcha
08:30 AM archivist: easily run 60k and up
08:30 AM jesseg: yeah
08:31 AM archivist: I held one in my hand at a show, had to touch the collet to feel it turning
08:31 AM jesseg: wow cool....
08:31 AM archivist: finger got polished quick
08:32 AM gregcnc_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ZkF2Vv1S0
08:33 AM jesseg: don't fingers smoke when they get polished at that speed? :P
08:33 AM archivist: nah
08:34 AM jesseg: wow that is a neat looking motor... How much does it cost? I presume it's air powered as well, not electric
08:34 AM gregcnc_: electric motor
08:34 AM jesseg: oh OK
08:34 AM gregcnc_: 5kUSD i suppose
08:35 AM jesseg: see that's a long ways on the other side of my budget :P
08:35 AM gregcnc_: just a guess they come in all sizes
08:35 AM archivist: look at home brew spindles using RC motors
08:36 AM jesseg: yeah I've used those RC motors on my model planes a lot, they are super cool
08:36 AM gregcnc_: I built one a wile ago mow
08:36 AM jesseg: That work pretty good?
08:36 AM jesseg: Do you use the original bearings, or just harvest the electromagnetics?
08:36 AM gregcnc_: sure, could design better second time around
08:37 AM archivist: http://www.raynerd.co.uk/brushless-dc-motor-cnc-high-speed-spindle/
08:37 AM jesseg: oh the electrics, cool
08:38 AM archivist: http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbines/Balancing_Tool/balancing_tool.html
08:39 AM archivist: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/112743-diy-spindle-idea.html
08:40 AM jesseg: oh cool a DIY dynamic balancer
08:42 AM jesseg: I've used those little piezo disk speakers as pressure sensors before, they are very sensitive
08:42 AM jesseg: they can produce like 30 volts if you tap them sharply
08:42 AM archivist: and cheap as hell
08:42 AM jesseg: absolutely
08:42 AM jesseg: there are in so many things that are being thrown away they are almost classifiable as free :P
08:43 AM archivist: too cheap to recycle, get 10 new off ebay
08:43 AM jesseg: lol yeah nowdays
08:44 AM jesseg: when I was a kid I didn't have access to ebay so I salvaged most of the parts I needed :P
08:56 AM ziper: what is a "tool holder grinding spindle"
08:56 AM archivist: mounts in/on a lathe tool post probably
08:57 AM archivist: something like http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=toolpost
08:58 AM ziper: oh I see
08:58 AM ziper: could you use one of those on a cnc machine to make cams?
08:59 AM archivist: possible, but there are other ways too
09:00 AM ziper: that balancing rig is super sweet
09:04 AM archivist: here is one I spotted at model engineer ex http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=model+engineer+balancing
09:15 AM ziper: there are a couple turbos I want to snatch up and rebuild
09:15 AM ziper: only problem is they spent a few weeks underwater
09:17 AM gregcnc_: what does it take to rebuild?
09:18 AM ziper: seeing if the corrosion ruined them, mostly
09:26 AM archivist: pull apart, clean and polish, new bearings, re balance in new bearings, hours of "fun"
09:26 AM jesseg: I guess you might not want a deeply pitted impeller turning at 80k or whatever they do
09:37 AM ziper: whats the worst that could happen
09:37 AM gloops: bit could fly off and smash your tea cup
09:39 AM sync: ziper: probably not worth it
09:49 AM gloops: well, might have an hour in the garage, every little helps
10:00 AM ziper: sync, why not
10:24 AM enleth: so it turns out I probably need to extend the motor axis on my Bridgeport - it is about 15mm too short to comfortably fit a pulley so that it matches the other one on the driven shaft
10:26 AM enleth: (it had to be shortened due to extensive wear damage)
10:26 AM enleth: so now I'm wondering how to make an extension sleeve that goes onto a keyed shaft without access to a broaching press
10:27 AM enleth: ideally it should be at least 100mm long to safely extend the shaft by the 15-20mm I need
10:28 AM gloops: lathe?
10:29 AM enleth: if you mean broaching on a lathe - I'd still have to buy the broach, sleeve, shims and all that crap
10:30 AM enleth: I guess I'll have to find a job shop that has the equipment
10:30 AM gloops: im not sure what you want to do, cut a key way in a sleeve?
10:32 AM gloops: if you can get a boring tool down it, with a bit ground to the key way size, traverse it through the shaft
10:34 AM roycroft: that's a pretty long keyway to cut that way
10:34 AM roycroft: but yeah, you'd be essentially using the lathe as a shaper
10:41 AM gregcnc_: how long is the sleeve keyway?
10:44 AM roycroft: he said at least 100mm
11:16 AM gloops: yes would be an awkward job that way, but it might be one possible solution
11:17 AM enleth: I though about the lathe-as-shaper solution too, but my lathe is barely big and rigid enough to turn such a sleeve
11:18 AM enleth: no way it would broach it too
11:18 AM enleth: not over 100mm of travel in steel
11:18 AM Longbow is now known as Guest79867
11:42 AM gloops: well, just a little bracket made today
11:48 AM enleth: waaaaait a second
11:48 AM enleth: the key is 25mm long or so
11:49 AM enleth: if the sleeve fits over most of the shaft, which is 150mm long, I can mill the keyway in the sleeve all the way through from outside
11:50 AM enleth: then slide the sleeve onto the shaft and drop the key into the hole
11:50 AM roycroft: yes, you can do that
11:50 AM enleth: now to find some way to retain it in there
11:50 AM roycroft: put a sleeve over it?
11:50 AM enleth: I've seen keys with through holes that are bolted to the shaft
11:51 AM enleth: probably best if I draw it
12:04 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:06 PM enleth: https://i.imgur.com/bYgxnlj.png something like this
12:07 PM enleth: solid stock bored to accept the shaft, keyway milled from the side
12:07 PM enleth: a key is supposed to be softer than the parts it's meshing together, right?
12:08 PM enleth: so drilling key stock shouldn't be a problem
12:08 PM roycroft: yes, a key is supposed to be softer
12:09 PM roycroft: and if you're not sure that it is, head over to your equivalent of harbor freight and buy an assortment of 150 keys for US$4
12:09 PM roycroft: i guarantee they'll be softer than whatever you're meshing together
12:09 PM enleth: free safety clutch
12:10 PM roycroft: unless you use hardened screws to hold the key in place
12:10 PM enleth: I'd probably use brass
12:10 PM roycroft: or countersink them below the sleeve
12:11 PM enleth: OTOH using a slip-on sleeve might be simpler
12:11 PM enleth: some kind of padding on top of the key would be needed, but that can be more or less anything
12:13 PM Loetmichel: *boarps*... bad idea to heat 2 glasses of wiener sausages (16 pcs) and make hotdogs of them... $me only needs a small mint to explode now... ;)
12:14 PM gloops: 16 hotdogs - glutton
12:15 PM Loetmichel: gloops: slightly.
12:15 PM gloops: but...got me fancying one now
12:15 PM Loetmichel: but i was told as a kid that wat is on you plate gets eaten. "DONT waste any food! Think of all the poor kids in africa that dont have any food!"
12:17 PM gloops: yeah same here, ive never been food shy though really
12:20 PM * roycroft is shedding his holiday weight
12:22 PM roycroft: so is anyone willing and able to discuss my spindle issue?
12:22 PM roycroft: i smoked it yesterday, and i'm trying to sort out what to do
12:22 PM roycroft: it ran for about 25 seconds, then the smoke started escaping
12:23 PM Loetmichel: ouch
12:23 PM roycroft: from what i know to check, the windings seem ok - resistance between the three poles is 1.04ohms, 1.02 ohms, and 0.94 ohms, and none of the poles are shorted to ground
12:23 PM Loetmichel: watercooled or air cooled?`
12:23 PM roycroft: watercooled
12:24 PM roycroft: but it did not get hot
12:24 PM roycroft: it ran for ~25 seconds under no load
12:24 PM Loetmichel: hmmm
12:24 PM Loetmichel: where did the magic smoke escape?
12:24 PM roycroft: the larger bearings, at the collet end, are kind of "crunchy"
12:24 PM Loetmichel: and what did it smell like?
12:24 PM roycroft: from the collet end initially
12:24 PM roycroft: but when i turned it off it came out of both ends
12:25 PM roycroft: i can still turn it with my fingers, but it does not turn freely as it should
12:25 PM roycroft: the smoke smelled electrical, but not normal electrical
12:25 PM roycroft: i figure it was "chinese electrical"
12:25 PM Loetmichel: more like nail polish or more like fish?
12:25 PM roycroft: like neither
12:26 PM roycroft: but more like fish than nail polish, i'd say
12:26 PM roycroft: i had run this spindle before for a few minutes
12:26 PM roycroft: when i programmed the vfd yesterday i set it to a maximum current of 8A
12:26 PM roycroft: the spindle is rated at 220vac, 2.2kw
12:27 PM roycroft: which should be 10A, if i can do arithmetic
12:27 PM Loetmichel: three phase
12:27 PM gloops: the spindle water cooled - internal water leak maybe?
12:27 PM roycroft: yes
12:27 PM Loetmichel: so no
12:27 PM roycroft: no water leak
12:27 PM roycroft: it was dry
12:27 PM roycroft: no?
12:27 PM gloops: well warming up cycle
12:27 PM roycroft: power calculation of 3 phase is different?
12:27 PM gloops: you arent supposed to hit full speed right away
12:28 PM Loetmichel: yes, it is
12:28 PM roycroft: no, it was still ramping up when the smoke came out
12:28 PM roycroft: later on i set max current to 2.2A
12:28 PM roycroft: and tried to run it
12:28 PM roycroft: it started to turn but then i got an overcurrent error on the vfd
12:29 PM roycroft: a different overcurrent error than when it was set to 8A
12:29 PM roycroft: i'm trying to figure out what i did wrong
12:29 PM enleth: roycroft: eh, wait. is the rating per motor or per phase? is the VFD setting per motor or per phase?
12:29 PM roycroft: the vfd setting is per motor, from what i understand
12:30 PM roycroft: it's a huanyang vfd
12:30 PM roycroft: and the documentation is not exactly written in clear, standard english
12:30 PM enleth: do you have another motor to check the VFD?
12:30 PM enleth: whatever type, even induction
12:30 PM roycroft: i did find a rating of 2.2A on the spindle later on, which i had not seen before
12:31 PM roycroft: i'm assuming that's per phase
12:31 PM roycroft: i do have another motor i can probably use
12:31 PM roycroft: but that's the next thing
12:31 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: formla for 3 phase ac motors is : P=U*I*sqrt(3)*cos(phi)
12:31 PM roycroft: i dont' want to burn up that motor as well
12:31 PM roycroft: so i want to understand what i did wrong before testing with another motor
12:31 PM roycroft: thanks, loetmichel
12:32 PM enleth: another thing - is the motor permanently wired for wye or delta, or can be re-wired?
12:32 PM roycroft: it is permanantly wired, i think
12:32 PM roycroft: the motor is one of those 80mm chinese spindles
12:33 PM enleth: there are 3-phase motors that are actually rated for phase-to-neutral voltage, not phase-to-phase, supposed to be run with a single phase input VFD
12:33 PM Loetmichel: if its one of the chinese watercooled spindles its permanently wired
12:33 PM roycroft: i'm using single phase input
12:33 PM Loetmichel: you CAN rewire it. but thats a PITA because you have to get into the guts/winding to find the ends
12:33 PM enleth: OK, so overvoltage was extremely unlikely
12:33 PM roycroft: the vfd is supposed to convert that to 3 phase
12:33 PM roycroft: yes
12:33 PM roycroft: i think it was overcurrent
12:33 PM roycroft: not overvoltage
12:34 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: overcurrent is unachiveable without either overvoltage or underfrequency
12:34 PM Loetmichel: which frequency did yo set when the smoke occured?
12:34 PM roycroft: it's a variable frequency drive
12:34 PM enleth: I was just about to say that
12:34 PM roycroft: the spindle is 400Hz
12:35 PM roycroft: i started it at 120Hz and was ramping up to 400Hz
12:35 PM Loetmichel: you started at 120hz?
12:35 PM Loetmichel: thats bold
12:35 PM roycroft: i don't know exactly where it was when it started smoking, but i'd guess around 300Hz
12:35 PM Loetmichel: i usually start at 30Hz
12:36 PM Loetmichel: below that you'll need to compansate for falling resistance in the winding by lowering the voltage
12:36 PM Loetmichel: the VFDs have a setting for that
12:36 PM roycroft: my guess, based on my not understanding exactly how it works, is that i was feeding it too much current, the current got the coils hot, that "cooked" the lubricant out of the upper bearings, and they got crunchy
12:36 PM Loetmichel: Is it possible that the smoke isnt electrical in nature but because of dirt in the bearings?
12:36 PM MarcelineVQ: roycroft: just fo information. my spindle is 220v and says 3ph on the plate but is also rates 8A on the plate, the vfd manual says to input the plate rating for pd142 and mine is set to 8.0 at the vfd
12:37 PM Loetmichel: if you say the spindle feels "cruchy" now...
12:37 PM roycroft: the large bearings by the collet end i can still turn with my fingers, but they feel "crunchy"
12:37 PM roycroft: i.e. as though the bearings are cracked
12:37 PM roycroft: the bearings do not spin easily or smoothly
12:38 PM roycroft: so my next questions are:
12:38 PM roycroft: would the spindle likely work again if i replaced those bearings?
12:38 PM Loetmichel: sounds to me as if it had some foreign objycts in the bearings, milled them down, overheatet the bearings in the process
12:38 PM roycroft: and
12:38 PM roycroft: would that slight increase in resistance from the bearings cause the vfd to give me an overcurrent fault?
12:38 PM Loetmichel: it would if its dynamic
12:38 PM roycroft: yes, this could all be coincidental
12:39 PM Loetmichel: meaning its increasing with speed
12:39 PM roycroft: the bearings could have been crap in the first place
12:39 PM enleth: roycroft: did you take it apart yet?
12:39 PM roycroft: yes, somewhat
12:39 PM roycroft: i pulled the rotor out, along with the bearings
12:39 PM Loetmichel: i would take the rotor out, look at the bearings and look for any discolouration on the rotor
12:39 PM gloops: i have heard of people getting a shock off the spindle, possible its arced out in the bearings
12:39 PM enleth: was there any loose crap around the rotor?
12:40 PM roycroft: no
12:40 PM Loetmichel: also i would look for any darkened spots on the stator and maybe sniff it if it still smells electrical
12:40 PM roycroft: just some grease, which was partially yellow and partially dark brown, and kind of hard
12:40 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: mine was 'buzzy' so I grounded it strongly before continueing to mess around :X
12:40 PM roycroft: it does still smell electrical
12:40 PM roycroft: i'll look for darkend spots on the stator
12:40 PM Loetmichel: (better would be to have the stator tested for insulation and winding short though)
12:41 PM roycroft: i'm not at home now, so i can't check until after work
12:41 PM roycroft: i tested with an ohm meter between the poles
12:41 PM enleth: replace both bearings with something sensible, possibly sealed, so any grease getting loose won't be an issue
12:41 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: i meant: if you remove the bearings: which part smells stronger: rotor, bearings or stator
12:41 PM roycroft: all were around the same resistance - 1.04 ohms, 1.02, and 0.94
12:41 PM roycroft: and i tested each to ground, and got no continuity
12:41 PM Loetmichel: thats saying nothing
12:41 PM roycroft: ok
12:41 PM roycroft: it was suggested to me last night
12:42 PM Loetmichel: a single winding short is unmeasurable at DC
12:42 PM Loetmichel: it only appears when its hot
12:42 PM roycroft: enleth: yes, i'll be removing the bearings
12:42 PM gloops: this is also operating upside down
12:42 PM Loetmichel: its on ac i mean
12:42 PM enleth: roycroft: what you'd need to check leakage is a HVDC supply with current limiting and an ammeter
12:42 PM roycroft: this thing was sold with "premium german bearings"
12:42 PM gloops: lol
12:42 PM roycroft: but when i went bearing shopping
12:42 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: you know that there is bearing company in china called "german"?
12:43 PM roycroft: i found that the larger bearings (7005c) start at $65 each fo rdecent quality
12:43 PM Loetmichel: no joke!
12:43 PM roycroft: and the whole spindle was $175 delivered
12:43 PM roycroft: so i'm not sure how that can be
12:43 PM gloops: 'not like other ebay spindle with cheap bearing, top german bearings last 4 times longer'
12:43 PM Loetmichel: see above
12:43 PM enleth: "premium" meant "sold at a premium discount"
12:43 PM Loetmichel: there is a chinese bearing company called "german"
12:43 PM roycroft: here's the deal
12:43 PM MarcelineVQ: there's also a food company in america called 100%, which sells all sorts of things that sound like food
12:43 PM roycroft: i don't want to spend $130 or more on bearings if they wont' fix the problem
12:43 PM roycroft: however
12:44 PM gloops: Marcel never had anything off mine, tough wood, mind you its hardly run
12:44 PM roycroft: i'm more than happy to spend that much or more if they do fix the problem, and make the spindle more reliable long-term
12:44 PM roycroft: i suppose most of those spindles use the same size bearings
12:44 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: 7005 bearings arent THAT expensive even from FAG
12:45 PM Loetmichel: ... here in germany at least
12:45 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: you should ground it, it was silly of me to test without doing that, never know when insulation's gonna fail
12:45 PM roycroft: so if i were to invest in new bearings and they did not fix the problem i could buy a new spindle, put the new bearings on that spindle, and have an improved spindle from the start
12:45 PM roycroft: the ones from fag i saw on ebay last night were $658 each :)
12:45 PM fragalot: roycroft: if you're talking about the round chinese spindles, that is a very common upgrade
12:45 PM MarcelineVQ: though your frame is all-metal which helps
12:45 PM roycroft: i decided not to get those
12:45 PM roycroft: yes, that's what i'm talking about, fragalot
12:46 PM MarcelineVQ: at least as long as that is grounded hehe
12:46 PM enleth: roycroft: if they're easy to take out of the spindle, then yes, it's a pretty decent idea
12:46 PM enleth: roycroft: where are you located?
12:46 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm//262431821341
12:46 PM roycroft: that is the type of spindle i have
12:47 PM roycroft: i'm in eugene oregon, on the west coast of the us
12:47 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: i can get a FAG 7005c bearing here for 55 eur
12:47 PM Loetmichel: which is about the $ 65 you mentoined.
12:47 PM roycroft: yes
12:47 PM gregcnc_: matched pair?
12:47 PM roycroft: so i need two of those
12:47 PM gloops: my frame is grounded in the sense that it aint going anywhere lol
12:47 PM roycroft: and two 7002c
12:47 PM Loetmichel: gregcnc_: nope
12:47 PM roycroft: in order to upgrade them all
12:47 PM gloops: i dont know electrically, its bolted to the concrete floor
12:47 PM Loetmichel: matched pairs are obvioulsy more expensive
12:48 PM gregcnc_: I universal pair?
12:48 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: electrically ground your metal frame you silly :O
12:48 PM Loetmichel: but do you think they really used matched bearings in the first place?
12:48 PM gregcnc_: no and that's why they are shit
12:48 PM gloops: ill wire it to the earth in plug socket
12:48 PM gregcnc_: how would you adjust prelaod?
12:49 PM enleth: OK, one Polish bearing factory makes 7005s that go for ~$38 retail, but I don't think they have any US distributos
12:49 PM roycroft: if you're all ready to grimace
12:49 PM Loetmichel: gregcnc_: the spindle shaft isnt rigid enough to warrant matched bearings
12:49 PM roycroft: this is how those spindles are made/rebuilt:
12:49 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U1-6rEHBGA
12:49 PM gregcnc_: BS
12:49 PM roycroft: i want to do better than that :)
12:49 PM Loetmichel: there is no need for them :-)
12:50 PM gregcnc_: so how do you preload the bearings so the balls don't skid?
12:50 PM gloops: its surprising, i took a ryobi 1500w router to bits, 24000 rpm, only 2 bearings and they are housed in the plastic
12:50 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: before you go and get new bearings: go to a motor winding guy near you and make him test the stator windings
12:50 PM Loetmichel: for insulation AND winding shorts
12:50 PM roycroft: ok, i'll do that
12:51 PM Rab: gloops, deep groove bearings amirite.
12:51 PM MarcelineVQ: that's a really good idea, between new bearings and a test though.. how much was the spindle? :X
12:51 PM Loetmichel: if both are ok then i would say it warrants new bearings
12:51 PM roycroft: honestly, if i just got another of the same type spindle, and it worked for a year, i could live with replacing the spindle on an annual basis
12:51 PM Loetmichel: not the most expensive but no shoddy chinese ones either
12:51 PM gloops: Rab they were decent bearings yeah, i got them off for something else
12:51 PM fragalot: gloops: at least it has 2 bearings
12:51 PM roycroft: but if a bearing upgrade would make it last longer, that would be even better
12:52 PM fragalot: gloops: open up a festool track saw, that has 1 bearing and a brass sleeve
12:52 PM roycroft: i really do not want to go back to a porter-cable 7518 motor for this router table
12:52 PM sync: ziper: who would run a turbo that was submerged in water for any length of time?
12:52 PM roycroft: i do not like universal motors - they are so noisy
12:52 PM roycroft: and i don't want to have to get underneath the table to adjust the speed
12:52 PM fragalot: roycroft: the square chinese spindles are supposed to be better
12:53 PM roycroft: i can't use a square one
12:53 PM roycroft: it won't fit my router lift
12:53 PM MarcelineVQ: the square ones are plenty loud, if you mean air cooled square, I've got one
12:53 PM gloops: well, a router doesnt actually get that much axial force, under normal use anyway
12:53 PM roycroft: no
12:53 PM roycroft: except when plunging
12:53 PM gloops: i think its about 12lb of force to push a typical router through wood
12:53 PM roycroft: and you're plunging into wood, not steel
12:53 PM Rab: I looked at service drawings for a few popular palm routers, and none of them were very impressive. The DeWalt DWP611 was like one 6002 bearing, and a 608 at the other end (as I recall). At that point I decided deep-groove bearings were fine for light-duty spindles.
12:53 PM roycroft: so even that's not that great a force
12:54 PM gloops: its the speed that kills the bearings
12:54 PM roycroft: https://www.incra.com/router_system_accessories-mast-r-lift-ii.html
12:54 PM roycroft: i have that router lift
12:54 PM roycroft: i need a round spindle
12:55 PM roycroft: the 80mm spindle mounts in it just fine
12:55 PM gloops: angular contact are better, but that much more expensive
12:55 PM roycroft: i had to take a piece of 0.015" shim stock to shim the spindle out so that it would clamp in the lift securely
12:55 PM roycroft: but it works just great that way
12:56 PM roycroft: i decided on that spindle because there are heaps of them around, and people don't complain about them too much
12:56 PM roycroft: i figured that if they were all crap, there would be a decent number of complaints about them
12:56 PM roycroft: but i also had no illusion that they were state of the art technology and manufacturing
12:57 PM gregcnc_: spindle nose bearings are mounted back to back https://youtu.be/2hL6k-YGaEE?t=10m16s
12:58 PM roycroft: yes
12:58 PM MarcelineVQ: oh that's interesting, bearings are larger than I expected
12:58 PM roycroft: and on my spindle there is another back to back pair at the other end
12:58 PM roycroft: so four bearings in total
12:58 PM gregcnc_: ok
12:58 PM gregcnc_: not a big deal
12:58 PM roycroft: the ones at the end opposite the spindle nose are much smaller
12:58 PM gregcnc_: no load
01:01 PM roycroft: 25mm id i think, marcelinevq for the ones at the collet end
01:01 PM roycroft: they are fairly substantial
01:01 PM gregcnc_: 7005 is 25x47x12
01:02 PM roycroft: so what is the difference between 7005b and 7005c?
01:02 PM gregcnc_: common 7005 will only be rated to ~16kRPM, precision type over 35k proper grease, amount etc. blah bah engineering
01:02 PM * roycroft is not a bearing expert by any means
01:02 PM roycroft: my spindle is rated to 24,000 rpm, and i need to be able to operate at that speed
01:03 PM roycroft: most of the time it will be running that fast
01:03 PM gregcnc_: is it too late to bother the MFG about warranty?
01:03 PM roycroft: i only need to slow it down when using very large cutters, like panel raising bits
01:03 PM roycroft: it was from ebay and i got it last fall
01:03 PM roycroft: so yes
01:03 PM roycroft: if i get another one i'll buy the 3 year warranty for an extra $15
01:03 PM roycroft: i'm not happy about this, but i can afford one mistake
01:04 PM roycroft: a second burned up spindle i cannot afford
01:04 PM roycroft: so i'm looking at this as potentially $175 paid in tuition to learn more about these things
01:05 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/182949599880
01:05 PM roycroft: so those look overspec'ed for my need
01:05 PM roycroft: should it come to buying new bearings
01:06 PM gregcnc_: those would be standard for that kind of spindle
01:06 PM gregcnc_: should be
01:06 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162473486244
01:07 PM roycroft: i thought those would be standard for that spindle :)
01:08 PM roycroft: i know nsk make high quality bearings
01:08 PM gregcnc_: I was tempted to try a set of those supposed precision china bearings, but decided not to waste my time and bought new NSK for 170USD. for a live tool spindle I rebuilt recently
01:08 PM roycroft: $100 for a matched pair is not a bad deal
01:08 PM sync: yeah but your spindle is not up to the requirements of those bearings
01:09 PM sync: MarcelineVQ: you can just put an external fan on them
01:09 PM gregcnc_: no it isn't, but what's the alternative? I would find the cheapest name brand off ebay and give it a shot
01:09 PM roycroft: the chinese ones i linked to above would be crap
01:10 PM MarcelineVQ: sync: as in remove the spindle fan to reduce noise and use a quieter fan to cool?
01:10 PM roycroft: while the spindle would not take advantage of top quality bearings, an upgrade from what i have would be useful, no?
01:10 PM sync: yeah MarcelineVQ
01:10 PM sync: no roycroft
01:10 PM sync: as it will just destroy those bearings again
01:10 PM MarcelineVQ: pretty good idea, need a thermistor inside just in case them, might give that a try when set-up
01:10 PM MarcelineVQ: *then
01:11 PM sync: just get a good quality regular 7005
01:11 PM sync: and it will be fine, most likely
01:11 PM roycroft: so you think that the spindle itself is the problem, and not a vfd programming error on my part?
01:11 PM sync: why would you need a thermistor in it, if you have a constant fan runnin MarcelineVQ?
01:11 PM gregcnc_: sync at 25k? with no preload?
01:11 PM sync: gregcnc_: #yolo
01:11 PM roycroft: if that is the case then there is no point in replacing the bearings
01:11 PM MarcelineVQ: sync: in case my fan isn't as good as I think
01:11 PM sync: the chinese bearings are cheap as well, but pfft
01:12 PM roycroft: the history of this is that i ran the spindle for a few minutes when i first got it last fall, then packed it away
01:12 PM sync: roycroft: probably
01:12 PM roycroft: then ran it again last night
01:12 PM Rab: roycroft, I read in forums that dropping below 400Hz can damage those spindles. You specifically stated you set it to 400Hz though.
01:12 PM MarcelineVQ: I'd be for warning not fan metering
01:12 PM roycroft: it failed while ramping up to speed, after about 25 seconds of on time
01:12 PM gregcnc_: well there is potential for the housing to be out of spec and cause bearing trouble for sure. housing tolerances for P4 bearings are within a few micron
01:12 PM roycroft: 400Hz is the rated maximum frequency
01:12 PM roycroft: and i set the vfd to that
01:12 PM roycroft: i set it to start up at 120Hz though
01:13 PM sync: ah
01:13 PM sync: what was the U/f ramp set at?
01:13 PM gregcnc_: it's highly unlikely the VFD killed the spindle
01:13 PM sync: because if so you burned it
01:13 PM MarcelineVQ: sometimes you just get a dud too, Loetmichel's idea of getting it tested is the most prudent first step, if a test is a reasonable price
01:13 PM sync: as the spindle will consume more current than it needs if you drive it below its rated frequency
01:13 PM sync: unless you reduce the voltage you put in
01:13 PM roycroft: i set it to a maximum of 8A
01:13 PM sync: this is not relevant
01:14 PM gregcnc_: to burn up in 25 seconds at rated current?
01:14 PM sync: or only semi relevant
01:14 PM sync: sure gregcnc_
01:14 PM roycroft: we're getting to the parts i don't understand now :)
01:14 PM sync: do you know how a 3 phase motor works?
01:14 PM roycroft: which is why i have been thinking that i misprogrammed the vfd to cause this
01:15 PM roycroft: only in the way it moves the magnetic field around the stator
01:15 PM gregcnc_: i do
01:15 PM roycroft: as far as how it handles current, not really
01:15 PM sync: http://lhp.co.in/images/img_vfd_10.jpg
01:15 PM sync: this is your issue
01:16 PM sync: look up what the U/f ramp is set at in your vfd
01:16 PM roycroft: ok, i'll check that when i get back home
01:16 PM roycroft: i know what i programmed yesterday, well i have notes on that
01:16 PM roycroft: and i can check what the factory default is
01:17 PM roycroft: i reset the vft to defaults before programming it last night
01:17 PM roycroft: so i can know in a minute what it *should* be set to
01:17 PM roycroft: but can't verify until later on
01:23 PM roycroft: how else might U/f ramp be described in the manual?
01:23 PM roycroft: keeping in mind that this is written in chinglish
01:24 PM sync: no idea, I don't use chinese VFDs
01:24 PM gloops: any guesses as to what the max rpm of a 1605 ballscrew will be - 1300 between bearings
01:24 PM sync: but it seems like pd005-pd010 are the relevant parameters
01:25 PM roycroft: pd 006 and 006 i set to 400Hz
01:25 PM roycroft: pd007-pd010 i left at factory defaults
01:25 PM fragalot: roycroft: something along the lines of "To avoid axis burn to set the current voltage relationship with the appropriate settings"
01:26 PM roycroft: pd005 and pd006, rather
01:26 PM roycroft: wait, not sure about pd006 - i may have left that at factory default
01:27 PM sync: well, it would be interesting to know what the default values are
01:27 PM fragalot: gloops: http://www.nookindustries.com/LinearLibraryItem/Ball_Screw_Selection -- this lists some formulas to calculate the resonance & strengths
01:27 PM roycroft: i am going on memory at the moment, trying to find where i noted the settings last night
01:27 PM sync: because that is where all the magic is
01:27 PM roycroft: pd006 (intermediate frequency)is 2.5/3Hz
01:27 PM roycroft: pd007 (minimum frequency) is 0.5Hz
01:27 PM gloops: ive used the calculators fragalot, my suspicions are they are a bit high, ive got no experience with these screws to go by though
01:28 PM roycroft: pd008 (max voltage) is 220v
01:28 PM roycroft: pd009 (intermediate voltage) is *, which i think is whateer pd008 is set to
01:28 PM roycroft: and pd010 is the same
01:29 PM roycroft: except the range is 0.1-50V, so the * cannot mean the same as pd008
01:29 PM gloops: http://www.nookindustries.com/EngineeringCalculator/MetricCriticalSpeed
01:30 PM gloops: 1090 rpm
01:30 PM fragalot: gloops: I would have thought around 800
01:30 PM fragalot: gloops: (estimated the root diameter of the screw at 12mm :P no idea if i'm right?)
01:31 PM gloops: i think..its 12.7, but yeah thereabouts
01:31 PM fragalot: gloops: however, this is assuming no load.
01:31 PM gloops: this is probably also assuming a stright screw with no wobbly pulleys lol
01:32 PM fragalot: yes, lol
01:32 PM * fragalot -> outside
01:32 PM fragalot: ttyl
01:33 PM roycroft: wait - i found the notes
01:33 PM gregcnc_: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/spindles-vfd/117782-huanyang-chinese-vfd-settings-manual-35.html#post2093086
01:33 PM roycroft: pd005 (high end frequency): 400Hz
01:34 PM roycroft: pd006 (middle frequency) 2.5Hz
01:34 PM roycroft: pd007 (low end frequency) 0.5Hz
01:34 PM gregcnc_: why 0.5Hz?
01:34 PM roycroft: pd008 (high end voltage) 220V
01:34 PM roycroft: pd009 (middle voltage) 15V
01:35 PM roycroft: pd010 (low end voltage) 8V
01:36 PM sync: well why not, it is just a linear ramp
01:36 PM roycroft: primarily because of my not understanding the settings well enough and going by what others have done with the same vfd/spindle combination
01:36 PM sync: but those values seem fairly ok
01:36 PM roycroft: that is supposed to match a contstant torque curve
01:36 PM roycroft: constant
01:37 PM roycroft: and when i said earlier that i set it to a minimum of 120Hz, that was not the starting frequency
01:37 PM roycroft: that was the minimum running frequency
01:37 PM roycroft: i.e. it starts lower, but once it gets to 120Hz it is not apermitted to go lower again
01:38 PM roycroft: i don't really need to set it that high - that setting is intended for air-cooled spindles to ensure that the fan spins fast enough to cool it
01:38 PM roycroft: but i also would never run it that slowly, so it doesn't really matter
01:40 PM roycroft: another setting that i'm not sure about is number of poles
01:40 PM roycroft: default is 4 poles
01:41 PM roycroft: i've read mixed reports on the actual number of poles in my spindle
01:41 PM roycroft: i left it at 4
01:41 PM roycroft: but if the spindle is actually 2 poles, setting it to 4 would mean it runs at half speed, no?
01:41 PM sync: no
01:41 PM sync: it is just important for the vector control if it has it
01:41 PM sync: but that could mess with the current regulation
01:42 PM roycroft: so that could be the source of my problem?
01:42 PM sync: possibly, but usually that just makes the motor run crappy
01:42 PM roycroft: ok
01:43 PM roycroft: the one other really confusing parameter is pd144, which is the rpm at 50Hz
01:44 PM roycroft: every reference i've seen says that for a 24,000rpm 400Hz spindle to set it to 3000, because that's the speed at 50Hz
01:44 PM roycroft: and i don't know where they get that
01:44 PM sync: why?
01:45 PM sync: or rather, what is your issue with that?
01:45 PM roycroft: oh, i do understand that now
01:45 PM roycroft: sorry
01:45 PM roycroft: i did not see how that was derived
01:46 PM roycroft: and now that i made a fool of myself by asking it was obvious :)
01:46 PM roycroft: so i can check that off my "settings i don't understand" list
01:47 PM roycroft: so what i think it gets down to now is the rated motor currrent setting
01:47 PM roycroft: which folks who use this same spindle say to set to either 8A or 10A
01:48 PM roycroft: and i set it to 8A, thinking i was being conservative
01:48 PM roycroft: but then i found a stamp on the spindle that said 2.2A, which i did not see before
01:48 PM roycroft: if the vfd setting is for total current, and the spindle is per pole, that would still be 6.6A, not 8 or 10
01:49 PM sync: nonononono
01:49 PM sync: 3 phase does not work like that
01:49 PM roycroft: oh, wait, loetmichel was talking to me about that earlier
01:49 PM sync: you cannot just multiply it by 3
01:49 PM sync: well, find out what the vfd limits
01:49 PM sync: if it is dc link current or actual phase current
01:50 PM roycroft: the setting is "rated motor current"
01:50 PM roycroft: and says to get that number from the motor faceplate
01:50 PM roycroft: that's all it says
01:54 PM MarcelineVQ: my 220v 400hz 1.5kw spindle is set to 8A on the huanyang vfd pd142, so far haven't had issue
01:54 PM roycroft: so i likely set that sanely
01:54 PM MarcelineVQ: 3ph, cos 0.75 on the plate
01:55 PM roycroft: my spindle is 2.2kw
01:55 PM MarcelineVQ: it's a very informative plate, pleasently surprised
01:55 PM roycroft: so far i'm not seeing anything that i set incorrectly that should have smoked it so quickly
01:56 PM roycroft: and others here that actually understand how they work haven't seen any huge red flags
01:56 PM roycroft: i'm thinking either the vfd is defective or the spindle was defective
01:56 PM sync: yeah
01:56 PM Tom_L: did you get it working?
01:57 PM Tom_L: just walked in...
01:57 PM roycroft: no, i did not
01:57 PM sync: doesn't seem like there is anything blatantly wrong
01:57 PM roycroft: last night i set the max current to 2.2A, since that is what is stamped on the spindle, even though it made no sense to me
01:57 PM roycroft: when i set it really low like that the spindle tries to start turning, but then i get an overcurrent error
01:57 PM roycroft: after about 3 seconds
01:58 PM roycroft: and the spindle turns about 1/8 turn in that time then stops, like a stepper motor would
01:58 PM roycroft: if you single step
01:58 PM roycroft: maybe 1/4 turn
01:58 PM gregcnc_: that's something like no load current
01:58 PM Tom_L: do you have an ammeter?
01:58 PM roycroft: yes
01:58 PM Tom_L: and can you put it between one of the windings and control?
01:58 PM Tom_L: to monitor the load
01:58 PM roycroft: yes, i can do that tonight
01:58 PM Tom_L: see what each one is doing
01:59 PM roycroft: i have a 'scope as well, so i can observe the waveform
01:59 PM Tom_L: if one is alot higher than the others you could have a shorted winding or something
01:59 PM Tom_L: you checked shorts to frame already
01:59 PM roycroft: it's been suggested by a couple folks that i take the motor to a repair shop and have them check out the windings
01:59 PM roycroft: yes, i checked for shorts to frame
01:59 PM Tom_L: well let someone else do your homework then
02:00 PM roycroft: if i knew how to check it myself i would
02:00 PM roycroft: not to save money, but to understand better how it works
02:00 PM Tom_L: right
02:00 PM roycroft: so if i can do that with just an ammeter and a 'scope, i'll give it a go
02:00 PM Tom_L: i'm kinda like that myself
02:00 PM Tom_L: most ammeters go to 10A, don't blow the fuse
02:01 PM Tom_L: or have a spare :)
02:01 PM roycroft: i said earlier that if it turns out that i screwed up the settings i'll chalk it up as a $175 tuition fee for learning how 3 phase motors work
02:01 PM roycroft: but i only want to pay that fee once
02:01 PM roycroft: i don't know what fuses my fluke takes, but i probably dont have spares on hand
02:02 PM roycroft: and i do know that it only goes to 10A
02:03 PM Tom_L: you will know soon enough :)
02:03 PM Tom_L: did you ohm the individual coils?
02:03 PM Tom_L: that could indicate a short as well
02:03 PM roycroft: yes
02:04 PM Tom_L: are all 3 the same?
02:04 PM roycroft: close
02:04 PM roycroft: 1.04 ohms, 1.02 ohms, 0.94 ohms
02:04 PM roycroft: at such low resistance the contact of the probes to the pins could account for the difference
02:04 PM roycroft: so in my mind they're similar enough
02:04 PM Tom_L: probably so
02:09 PM roycroft: i'm not sure you were around when i mentioned this last night or this morning, tom_l, but when i disassembled the motor i could still turn the bearings by hand, but the big bearings by the spindle nose are kind of "crunchy" now, and do not spin freely
02:09 PM roycroft: so at the very least i need to replace those bearings
02:09 PM roycroft: i don't want to do that if the rest of the motor is toast though
02:10 PM roycroft: and i think it should run, albeit noisily and with a lot of runout, with those bearings
02:10 PM gloops: cheap, but too far https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/145429219494911
02:12 PM Rab: roycroft, put in some $10 7005 bearings and see if it runs. Then use your refined spindle rebuilding skills to do a proper job with a $150 NSK pair. ^_^
02:13 PM Tom_L: let that guy in the video replace them for you
02:13 PM roycroft: i could do that, but shouldn't it run with the existing bearings?
02:13 PM roycroft: at least well enough to determine that the rest of the motor is not toast
02:15 PM Tom_L: i'm no motor expert but i know when my furnace motor gets a little wear in the bushings it won't start
02:15 PM roycroft: the thing isn't hard to disassemble and reassemble - i don't think i need to acquire any specific skills to do the job :)
02:15 PM Tom_L: it will if i turn it a little
02:15 PM roycroft: pop the rotor in the freezer and warm up the bearings
02:15 PM roycroft: give them a push
02:15 PM Tom_L: some motors have no startup torque. i wouldn't think this would be one of those
02:15 PM roycroft: and they should slide on
02:16 PM roycroft: time is an issue
02:16 PM roycroft: $10 in bearings is no big deal
02:16 PM roycroft: taking a couple weeks to get here is
02:16 PM roycroft: although i could move on to another project in the meantime
02:17 PM Tom_L: no local bearing shops?
02:17 PM roycroft: i kind of want to get this one done
02:17 PM roycroft: yes, but they are unlikely to have cheap chinese bearings
02:17 PM Rab: roycroft, you could try reassembling and spinning with another motor to see if the bearings bind at speed. That may not exactly duplicate the real load, however.
02:17 PM roycroft: they would have timco or nsk for top dollar prices
02:18 PM Roguish_ is now known as Roguish
02:18 PM roycroft: i'll check though
02:18 PM Tom_L: you could probably take the old bearing out and clean it to do the same test
02:18 PM roycroft: i live in the industrial part of town
02:18 PM Tom_L: even if it's shot
02:18 PM roycroft: yeah, i was thinking that
02:18 PM roycroft: if the grease got cooked i might be able to clean them out and oil them up for a test
02:19 PM roycroft: at this point the spindle is non-functional, and i think that nothing i can do will make it worse
02:19 PM roycroft: i'm not going to resort to setting my vise on the floor and using those techniques to do the rebuild though
02:20 PM Tom_L: i pulled the wires off the commutator on one once and fixed that
02:22 PM roycroft: so this may be off base
02:22 PM roycroft: but i did not do a break-in of the new spindle
02:22 PM roycroft: i.e. for things like lathes and mills one runs the spindle at low speed for a while, then slowly increases speed to break the bearings in
02:22 PM roycroft: while i don't have much time on this spindle - maybe 10 minutes total, i did not do a break-in procedure
02:23 PM roycroft: i wonder if that might have caused the bearings to get too hot when i was spinning it up last night
02:23 PM Tom_L: just got a free copy of mastercam 2018
02:23 PM fragalot: you should not notice the lack of a break-in period in only 10 minutes unless something is very, very wrong
02:23 PM Tom_L: my kid is taking a class
02:23 PM Tom_L: free for a year anyway
02:23 PM roycroft: that's what i thought, fragalot
02:24 PM roycroft: which is why i said it may be off base to speculate that as the problem
02:24 PM roycroft: but i thought i'd throw it out there anyway
02:24 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: whats in that version? which posts?
02:24 PM roycroft: since i don't know what happened, i figure any data might be useful
02:24 PM Tom_L: haven't installed it yet
02:24 PM Tom_L: just downloaded
02:24 PM Tom_L: it's a home learning version
02:25 PM Tom_L: probably limited in some way
02:27 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight go to caminstructor.com if you want more info
02:27 PM fragalot: limited to 250 lines of gcode :3
02:28 PM Tom_L: won't be doing any surfaces with that
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: but you'll be ready for the full version if it drops into your lap
02:29 PM Tom_L: i don't really need a cam solutino
02:29 PM Tom_L: i've got my old smartcam for my mill
02:29 PM Tom_L: it's old but it works fine
02:29 PM Rab: roycroft, was coolant plumbed to the spindle?
02:29 PM Tom_L: granted the newer stuff is quicker and smarter
02:30 PM CaptHindsight: smarter cam
02:30 PM Tom_L: i can import just about anything with mine
02:31 PM Tom_L: it was actually the cam leader back then but got sold a few times and mastercam took over
02:31 PM roycroft: yes, rab
02:32 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight what do you use?
02:33 PM roycroft: when i first got the spindle i ran it for a few seconds (<20) without coolant just to be sure it was not doa
02:33 PM roycroft: but then i waited for my coolant pump to arrive before running it again
02:33 PM roycroft: i doubt that would have damaged it
02:33 PM Tom_L: that shouldn't do anything to it
02:33 PM Rab: Yeah, can't imagine 20 sec with no load would be a problem.
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I have Mastercam and NX.
02:34 PM roycroft: i'm using this:
02:34 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/232383121796
02:34 PM roycroft: i think it's probably a significant overkill for the application
02:34 PM CP_Away: Glas I am not the onlyone with VFD issues haaha
02:35 PM roycroft: i think consensus is that it's likely a defective spindle, not a vfd problem
02:36 PM roycroft: i have some more spindle diagnostics to do
02:36 PM roycroft: but it's lunch time, so at the moment i have that to do
02:37 PM CP_Away is now known as Contract_Pilot
02:38 PM Contract_Pilot: Yea, i am trying to figure out the freq pulse scale tormach is using.
02:38 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:39 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: we end up having to get whatever our clients use for CAD/CAM
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: [SPINDLE]
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: LO_RANGE_MIN = 50
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: LO_RANGE_MAX = 1500
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: LO_SCALE = 1.0
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: HI_RANGE_MIN = 250
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: HI_RANGE_MAX = 2500
02:42 PM Contract_Pilot: HI_RANGE_SCALE = 1.376
02:43 PM Contract_Pilot: So once i igur out the roper scale in the VFD should be able to adjust it in the INI File.
02:43 PM Contract_Pilot: I Figure.
02:46 PM fragalot: Tom_L: I figured out why that guide I originally followed told me to connect to the generic I/O rather than the encoder pins
02:46 PM Contract_Pilot: also in the HAL fil there is...
02:46 PM Contract_Pilot: # for lathe 5000 Hz/RPM max
02:46 PM Contract_Pilot: # 5000 Hz maximum frequency, position units / second
02:46 PM Contract_Pilot: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.stepgen.02.maxvel 5000
02:46 PM fragalot: Tom_L: that guide assumed you would use the encoder connections for the spindle & used the generic I/O to let linuxcnc read the MPG...
02:47 PM Tom_L: ahh
02:49 PM gloops: how long has it been now Contract_Pilot?
02:50 PM * Tom_L heads out to mount a spindle
02:50 PM Contract_Pilot: Way to long...
02:51 PM Contract_Pilot: This is going to b my final Configuration..
02:52 PM Contract_Pilot: 3 Year messing with this machine
02:52 PM Contract_Pilot: Was about ready to scrap it till path pilot came out hahahah...
02:53 PM fragalot: what difference does path pilot make? (I have no idea what pathpilot is)
02:54 PM Contract_Pilot: it is A GUI for LCNC with some enhancements
02:55 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.tormach.com/pathpilot.html
02:55 PM gloops: ideally i want a spindle with a plug on the end that i just have to plug in and it works
02:55 PM Contract_Pilot: # position = counts / position_scale
02:55 PM Contract_Pilot: # this scales the input RPM to the output frequency
02:55 PM Contract_Pilot: # fast spindle pulley 1000 Hz -> 1000 RPM
02:55 PM Contract_Pilot: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.stepgen.02.position-scale [SPINDLE]LO_SCALE
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: Contract_Pilot: what features does PP have that you really need?
02:56 PM Contract_Pilot: Si i am wondering if it pulls from the spindle encoder.
02:57 PM Contract_Pilot: How clean it is.
02:57 PM Contract_Pilot: The Conversational
02:58 PM Contract_Pilot: and it is what my Milling machine uses.
02:59 PM CaptHindsight: doesn't it also use dropbox to share programs (gcode)?
02:59 PM Contract_Pilot: Yep.
02:59 PM Contract_Pilot: but thats not a big issue
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: I was just surprised that anyone would want that
03:01 PM Contract_Pilot: Was hoping to get some work done on it today just not feeling up to deciphering more VFD manual today .
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: yes Chinglish
03:02 PM Contract_Pilot: Emerson Call a function one thing Hitachi call the same function something totally different...
03:02 PM fragalot: they are all different, lol
03:02 PM Contract_Pilot: Or 3 settings to accomplish 1 setting
03:03 PM Contract_Pilot: they will tell you a setting but no description what it does?
03:04 PM CaptHindsight: they might not be sure themselves
03:04 PM Contract_Pilot: Others they will refer to a setting that is not there or someplece else.
03:04 PM fragalot: I quite like the drives from Delta; once you found all 4 manuals it is quite clear what each setting does in what mode
03:04 PM Contract_Pilot: like the pulse train scale no where to be found...
03:05 PM CaptHindsight: lots of suppliers there get their components from the same places and the controller is already programmed
03:05 PM Contract_Pilot: Emerson has 3
03:05 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, thats the risk you take by trying to save money and buy ChinaCo
03:06 PM Contract_Pilot: Hitachi has 2..
03:06 PM Contract_Pilot: But Hitachi has nice software make going thru the settings nice.
03:07 PM CaptHindsight: I have one ChinaCo VFD that I use manually. The Chinglish manual is terrible.
03:09 PM Contract_Pilot: Yea, seen my friends E-bay manual hahah trial and error is better
03:09 PM Contract_Pilot: Basic for Fwd/Rev 10K Pot
03:09 PM Contract_Pilot: He still has not figured how to run 0-10V
03:10 PM Contract_Pilot: But do not think he even tried.
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: I think the manual for this one had pictures of terminals not on the VFD
03:21 PM gloops: there must be a confucius saying for this
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: worlds smallest pair of snips https://twitter.com/hnisimasu/status/928933260159197184/photo/1
03:39 PM CaptHindsight: that string is DNA ~2nm wide, and the blob is the snips
03:41 PM gloops: milling a double helix would be a challenge
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: that blob actually traveled down the DNA searching for a match and then broke the bonds
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: that would be like counting the number of molecules of metal from the edge and then cutting
03:58 PM Deejay: gn8
04:45 PM roycroft: hmm, i found a bearing shop a few blocks away from my house whose line card includes some low end stuff
04:45 PM roycroft: mayhap i'll drop by on my way home from work and see if they have some $10 bearings for me
04:48 PM malcom2073: Nice find
04:49 PM Rab: Maybe they have some insight on the failure.
04:50 PM Rab: Probably: "lol china"
04:51 PM roycroft: i'm not sure if i should even mention the word "china"
04:52 PM roycroft: i went to a motor shop a few years ago to replace a burned up chinese motor with an american made leeson (it's been a few years - leeson were still making motors here) and the guy almost literally threw me out of the shop for having a chinese motor in the first place
04:52 PM roycroft: he refused to sell to me, and i could tell that if i did not leave on my own, very quickly, he would have come out from behind the counter and removed me
04:53 PM roycroft: that was probably 25 years ago but i still remember it vividly
04:53 PM dioz: my latest troll is listing reasons women have it easier in this current age... in the work place and outside
04:53 PM Rab: That seems like bad business; you were the perfect customer.
04:53 PM dioz: WHOA
04:53 PM dioz: window 5 is not the window i thought it was
04:53 PM dioz: disregard
04:53 PM roycroft: i was a bad customer for having used the wrong thing in the first place
04:53 PM roycroft: not a good customer for having learned my lesson
04:54 PM roycroft: so yes, it was bad business
04:54 PM roycroft: i have never gone back there
04:54 PM roycroft: and when i went in i basically said "this machine came with a crappy chinese motor that burned up, and i want to replace it with a high quality motor that won't burn up"
04:54 PM Rab: dioz, you should probably run a whole separate client instance for EFnet, just to be safe.
04:54 PM roycroft: so it's not like i went in trying to replace crap with crap
04:55 PM dioz: Rab: efnet is 100% trolls. there's no point in trolling efnet
04:55 PM dioz: i find the liberal channels on freenode
04:55 PM roycroft: wrath is too often misapplied
04:55 PM dioz: it's more fun cause it actually ellicits an emotional response
04:55 PM dioz: illicits?
04:55 PM roycroft: elicits
04:55 PM dioz: one or the other
04:57 PM * roycroft is not a big fan of labels and tribal mindsets
04:58 PM dioz: not to be combative but i'd find that hard to believe
04:58 PM dioz: it's part of us
04:58 PM dioz: the millions of years it's taken to put our bodies together
04:58 PM dioz: it's a result of biological evolution
04:59 PM dioz: it's like saying... seretonine doesn't effect you or your chemical make-up isn't a result of some biological off-shoot XXX amount of years ago
04:59 PM dioz: i'd say that if someone suggested they didn't have an in-group preference....
04:59 PM roycroft: politics generally, and in the united states specifically, has become very broken because people have stopped talking to each other, formed tribes, and the tribes have devolved into doing nothing but shouting at each other
05:00 PM dioz: in that sense yes i agree
05:00 PM roycroft: present an idea to me
05:00 PM roycroft: don't put labels on it
05:00 PM roycroft: i don't care about the labels
05:00 PM roycroft: i care about the idea
05:00 PM roycroft: i'll discuss the merits of the idea with you
05:00 PM roycroft: isn't that how it should work?
05:01 PM dioz: i won't even bother discussing flat earth with someone
05:01 PM dioz: i don't both discussing objective truths
05:01 PM roycroft: "alternative facts" are the result of tribalism
05:01 PM roycroft: there is no such thing as "alternative facts"
05:01 PM roycroft: there are facts
05:01 PM roycroft: and there are illogical falsehoods
05:02 PM dioz: well... i'd say that Russia causing Trump to get into presidency in the USA is alternative facts
05:02 PM dioz: given there's no objective proof
05:02 PM roycroft: and i'm going to the bearing shop now, as my work day is over
05:02 PM dioz: i'm going to shower!
05:02 PM dioz: ttyl
05:02 PM roycroft: oh, before i go i'll leave you with this
05:02 PM roycroft: i think it is well-established that the russians tried to influence the last election
05:03 PM roycroft: that said, there's no way they "threw" it to trump
05:03 PM Rab: dioz, our only difference from other animals is our conceit that we're not animals. So it's very important to believe we can reject our intrinsic characteristics. It is our only opportunity for transcendance.
05:04 PM dioz: we can't concede we aren't animals
05:04 PM dioz: and the example i'll give to explain this is...
05:04 PM roycroft: and when my friends who belong to the tribe called "democrats" try to pull that russia gave the election to trump shit i call them out on it and tell them that they need to look inward to find the cause of their tragic loss
05:04 PM dioz: have you ever needed to study for a test?
05:04 PM dioz: has your mind ever wandered preventing you from studying?
05:04 PM * roycroft cioders
05:04 PM dioz: is it not YOUR mind?
05:05 PM dioz: and the idea of thoughts
05:05 PM dioz: there's a difference between "thinking" and a thought
05:05 PM dioz: an idea that pops into your head
05:05 PM dioz: without having to THINK about it
05:05 PM dioz: where did it come from?
05:05 PM dioz: what implicit aspects of our every-day life are we over-looking?
05:06 PM dioz: a baby knows to suckle. it isn't a social construct
05:06 PM dioz: it's an implicit action built into the human nature
05:06 PM dioz: what other implicit actions are there?
05:08 PM dioz: do we have implicit biases? how can we reject an intrinsic characteristic if we aren't even aware we have it?
05:08 PM dioz: it's like a ghost of a ghost
05:10 PM dioz: i wouldn't say humans are tabula rasa
05:10 PM dioz: there's "residual garbage" from the millions of years it's taken us to put outselves together
06:15 PM enleth: dammit, there are chinese replacements for Bijur meter units but only for M8 threads, they don't seem to sell any 5/16-24 thread models
06:16 PM enleth: so I'd have to replace all manifolds, fittings, etc.
06:17 PM enleth: OTOH it could still be cheaper to replace everything with metric parts from aliexpress than it is to buy brand name imperial thread meter units
06:21 PM roycroft: so the bearing shop quoted me $385 each for bearings, and say they only sell them in pairs
06:21 PM roycroft: but that is probably moot, because i got a better light to shine into the spindle body and things do not look good
06:21 PM dioz: uh oh
06:22 PM enleth: toasty stator windings?
06:23 PM roycroft: you folks like photos
06:24 PM roycroft: especially of things gone bad
06:24 PM roycroft: so give me a moment
06:25 PM dioz: why do you toy with me like that roycroft ?
06:26 PM roycroft: because it's fun?
06:26 PM roycroft: and not as toxic as political trolling
06:31 PM roycroft: grr, not as easy to see in the pics as i'd like
06:31 PM roycroft: but oh well
06:32 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Spindle/Rotor1.jpeg
06:32 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Spindle/Rotor2.jpeg
06:32 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Spindle/Stator1.jpeg
06:32 PM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Spindle/Stator2.jpeg
06:32 PM roycroft: the ends of the stator are kind of crispy
06:32 PM roycroft: and there's a burn mark on the rotor
06:33 PM roycroft: those were some quick pics i took with my ipad
06:34 PM enleth: roycroft: so that motor might have been a dud all along
06:34 PM roycroft: yes
06:34 PM roycroft: i should probably just get another, eh?
06:34 PM roycroft: i don't think it's worth investing any more time in this one
06:35 PM roycroft: and for the next one i get i'll buy the 3 year warranty for an extra $15
06:35 PM roycroft: and then, when cash flow permits, i'll buy a spare to have on-hand
06:35 PM roycroft: and test the spare for more than 10 minutes when it arrives
06:36 PM roycroft: one other data point that i hadn't mentioned before
06:37 PM roycroft: the spindle ran fairly quiet, but there was a high pitched whine when it was running at full speed
06:37 PM roycroft: a whine that i usually associate with dry bearings
06:37 PM roycroft: but i've heard that same whine on every youtube video of those spindles
06:37 PM roycroft: so i figured that might be normal for them
06:38 PM enleth: well I'll be damned, Arc Euro Trade has all the parts I need to refit the oiling system for M8x1 and they're cheap: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machine-Spares/One-Shot-Lubrication-System
06:38 PM enleth: definitely the chinese stuff
06:38 PM enleth: but it's already there in the EU (for now...)
06:39 PM ziper: darn it my logging got turned off by accident and someone pinged me a few hours ago and my scrollback doesnt go far enough
06:40 PM enleth: ziper:
06:40 PM enleth: #linuxcnc.01-22.log:16:38 < sync> ziper: probably not worth it
06:40 PM enleth: #linuxcnc.01-22.log:19:51 < sync> ziper: who would run a turbo that was submerged in water for any length of time?
06:40 PM ziper: thanks
06:40 PM ziper: sync, I would
06:41 PM enleth: roycroft: uh, wait a sec, I actually think I have an identical spindle somewhere, I can check the winding resistance
06:41 PM roycroft: i'm taking away two lessons from this:
06:41 PM roycroft: 1. when buying the chinese stuff on ebay, buy the extended warranty if it's cheap
06:41 PM enleth: it might be buried somewhere in a box full of plotter crap, but if it's somewhere I can see it, I'll check it
06:41 PM roycroft: 2. when buying the chinese stuff on ebay, don't buy it until i'm ready to put it in service or at least give it a long burn-in period
06:42 PM roycroft: i bought this about 3 months ago, tested briefly, and let it sit until i was ready to put it in service
06:42 PM roycroft: if you run across it i'd apppreciate it
06:42 PM roycroft: the numbers i had seem right though
06:42 PM roycroft: but it would be interesting to know what a not toasty one reads
06:46 PM enleth: OK, not only ARC sells those meter units for less than 5GBP, they include a compression nut and a ferrule with each unit
06:46 PM enleth: you have to get them separately when buying $15 brand name units
06:49 PM enleth: looks like those guys are getting my money again
07:27 PM gregcnc_: roycroft http://www.cnczone.com/forums/spindles-vfd/342144-cnc-posts.html
07:34 PM CaptHindsight: that's because you're not supposed to look inside the spindle
07:40 PM Tom_itx: https://youtu.be/jRN00-0enYw
07:41 PM Tom_L: got a bracket made for the spindle
07:41 PM Tom_L: still need to locate it properly
07:41 PM Tom_L: then start squaring it up and fixing the config
07:45 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: did you find something to use for the way covers?
07:46 PM Tom_L: no not yet
07:46 PM Tom_L: i haven't really had a chance to look
07:51 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I have a bunch of this if you'd like some https://imagebin.ca/v/3p8X58aBwIvg
07:55 PM Tom_L: i wonder if it would melt with hot chips on it
07:56 PM Tom_L: i still have part of a roll of neoprene, i may see if that will work on it
07:56 PM Tom_L: it might be too stiff
07:56 PM Tom_L: err, not really stiff but bulky?
07:56 PM Tom_L: iirc it's 1/16"
07:57 PM Tom_L: brb
08:05 PM Tom_itx: lazy bot
08:10 PM roycroft: i ordered another spindle, from amazon this time, and got a 4 year warranty for $19.90
08:11 PM Tom_itx: :=)
08:18 PM roycroft: i have an amazon store card that gets me 6 months @ 0%, so it's not even going to impact cash flow
08:19 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_itx: we used it to cover water baths boiling at 100C
08:19 PM roycroft: no spindle love until the first of the month though :(
08:19 PM roycroft: i'll work on other stuff for a couple weeks i guess
08:20 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_itx: so unless it's a really big hot chip it will be fine
08:21 PM roycroft: i have a good book on electric motors somewhere - i think i'll dig it out tonight to help fill in the holes from what folks have taught me today about 3 phase motors
08:21 PM roycroft: before i forget
08:26 PM Tom_itx: i wonder how well something like a window shade that retracts would work for a cover
08:27 PM Tom_itx: put a good material on it and mount it to the front and attach it to the slide
08:27 PM Tom_itx: when it moves forward it would wind up on the spool
08:27 PM Tom_itx: or is that a bad idea
08:28 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_itx: that is how we used it, just like a roll up shade
08:28 PM CaptHindsight: only flat over a bath
08:28 PM Tom_itx: what sort of roll did you use?
08:28 PM CaptHindsight: aluminum tube core with a spring
08:28 PM Tom_itx: one on each side of the slide
08:29 PM CaptHindsight: solid core from side to side and a torsion spring on each side
08:29 PM CaptHindsight: you could use motors if you wanted to get fancy
08:29 PM Tom_itx: i'm not that fancy
08:30 PM Tom_itx: got a pic of one you did?
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: maybe it will inspire someone else to be silly
08:30 PM Tom_itx: i may have to try something like that
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: nope
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: motors to keep slight tension
08:31 PM CaptHindsight: your travel is not that long
08:31 PM Tom_itx: no it's not
08:31 PM Tom_itx: a healthy spring should do fine
08:31 PM CaptHindsight: anti backlash as well :)
08:31 PM * Tom_itx looks up at his garage door spring :D
08:32 PM Tom_itx: hmm
08:34 PM Tom_itx: i like that idea
08:34 PM Tom_itx: if i have enough room to mount one
08:35 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.thespringstore.com/tech-info/stock-small-torsion-springs-for-sale.html?category_id=7
08:35 PM Tom_itx: i've wound plenty of springs
08:38 PM CaptHindsight: 26 oz. vinyl laminated high strength polyester fabric offers superior tensile and tear properties, flame resistant and presents superior abrasion resistance
08:39 PM Tom_itx: that clear stuff you linked?
08:40 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_itx: yes
08:41 PM Tom_itx: what do you want for a chunk of it?
08:41 PM CaptHindsight: just shipping
08:45 PM Tom_itx: do you do pp?
08:46 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_itx: sure
09:07 PM CaptHindsight: about every 10 years I clean out old stuff
09:09 PM * Tom_itx retires for the nigh
09:09 PM Tom_itx: t
09:12 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
09:37 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.opensourceimaging.org/project/cosi-measure/
09:37 PM CaptHindsight: COSI Measure is an open source multipurpose 3-axis robot
09:37 PM CaptHindsight: but uses a Beagle Bone Black, wtf?!
09:39 PM CaptHindsight: and https://github.com/opensourceimaging/cosi-measure/tree/master/Software/BeBoPr
09:40 PM CaptHindsight: Alternative software that can be used with the BeBoPr to create for example a CNC lathe, mill, router or laser cutter is LinuxCNC (formerly known as EMC2).
09:40 PM Rab: [link to Machinekit]
09:40 PM CaptHindsight: Machinekit!
09:41 PM CaptHindsight: and this is from 4 months ago
09:41 PM CaptHindsight: why does everyone waste their time reinventing the wheel?
09:42 PM CaptHindsight: vs spending their time on something useful
09:43 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.mdc-berlin.de/
09:44 PM CaptHindsight: I might just have to post the same thing with LCNC
09:45 PM CaptHindsight: why would i want to use a BBB if I'm going to add all sorts of stuff to the system that is going to need a PC anyway for control or analysis?
09:47 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.opensourceimaging.org/wp-content/uploads/open_source_magnetic_resonance_imaging_projects_cosimeasure_precision_3.jpg not very good at placing drops
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: 0.5mm between drops, so it looks like it's out by >100um in the Y
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: was the dispenser a noddle?
10:09 PM BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil
10:22 PM roycroft: wow
10:22 PM roycroft: my spindle shipped already
10:22 PM roycroft: maybe it won't take until the end of the month to get here :)
10:28 PM CaptHindsight: https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41598-017-13824-z/MediaObjects/41598_2017_13824_MOESM2_ESM.mp4?_=1 Z axis is a noodle