#linuxcnc Logs

Jan 11 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:01 AM MarcelineVQ: ah neat breaks? the ones I have in mind move the wheel instead so they're as rigid as your legs is
12:04 AM roycroft: yes i khow what you're talking about
12:04 AM MarcelineVQ: thing sure are cheap on american amazon
12:04 AM roycroft: i've found the type i use are pretty stable
12:04 AM roycroft: the biggest problem with most locking casters is that they still can swivel when locked
12:04 AM roycroft: and mine don't do that
12:07 AM MarcelineVQ: yeah it's prettry pointless if there's swivel given how most casters rotation is eccentric
12:07 AM MarcelineVQ: I guess some get away with it by having two non-swiveling casters that also have locks
12:07 AM MarcelineVQ: 2 of 3/4
12:07 AM roycroft: i use four swivel casters on some things, when i need maximum maneuverability, but i prefer 2 fixed and 2 swivel for the most part
12:07 AM roycroft: my woodworking bench has the type with the retractable wheels
12:08 AM roycroft: http://www.rockler.com/workbench-caster-kit-4-pack
12:09 AM roycroft: they had those on sale for $40 with free shipping a while back and i thought that was a pretty good deal
12:10 AM MarcelineVQ: definetly
12:11 AM roycroft: i got the mounting plates for them that let one remove the casters easily, but find that i rarely do that
01:01 AM IchGucksLive: hi
01:02 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: dathtol now at 17
01:27 AM gloops: sticking aluminium wood is a bigger problem than the average person would ever realise
01:28 AM gloops: aluminium to wood
01:30 AM MarcelineVQ: what's your trouble?
01:30 AM archivist: aluminium
01:31 AM gloops: im just saying, everyone who tries sticking aluminium has problems, theres no standard technique
01:31 AM gloops: it doesnt stick
01:31 AM MarcelineVQ: bonding?
01:31 AM gloops: looks like caravan sealant is the best thing
01:32 AM gloops: aluminium gives off an oily substance that breaks any bond eventually
01:32 AM archivist: probably similar to aircraft stuff
01:32 AM MarcelineVQ: why do you need to bond alu to wood?
01:33 AM gloops: im just researching things while im waiting, ive been looking at sticking aluminium sheets to wood for cutting shapes out of
01:33 AM MarcelineVQ: as opposed to screwing or bolting or riveting, or having a spikey side to the alu and pressing it into the wood
01:33 AM gloops: no good for display things
01:35 AM MarcelineVQ: neato. since it's a display piece if you lacquer it well it could help keep things in place
01:36 AM gloops: it might be ok for just hanging there, the bond isnt being tested or anything, no load
01:36 AM MarcelineVQ: alterantively you could have the alu recessed into the wood and have it be a gentle press-fit to put together
01:36 AM gloops: it will also warp the wood
01:36 AM MarcelineVQ: what will warp the wood?
01:37 AM gloops: that would be possible for inlays yes
01:37 AM gloops: sticking alu to one side of a wood sheet, the wood expands/contracts at a different rate to the alu, its got to bend
01:37 AM gloops: that happens with veneers as well, youre supposed to veneer both sides
01:38 AM gloops: if you put teak veneer on a thin pine board the board will bend
01:40 AM gloops: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0484/6801/products/tree-tree-of-life-3d-brushed-aluminum-1_grande.JPG?v=1458357243
01:40 AM gloops: say to cut that out at 900mm x 900mm
01:41 AM gloops: a solid aluminium sheet strong enough would be expensive and hard work for a router
01:41 AM gloops: however, a 1mm sheet stuck to 25mm mdf would be easy
01:41 AM MarcelineVQ: alu isn't much tougher to cut than wood really, just less forgiving when you dwell
01:42 AM archivist: 1mm on a vacuum table
01:42 AM MarcelineVQ: but def. more expensive!
01:42 AM gloops: i dunno how much is a metre square of 4mm thick
01:42 AM gloops: probably 12 passes round all that detail
01:46 AM archivist: if held down properly one pass
01:47 AM gloops: 1000 x1000 4mm, 5083 ally = £230
01:47 AM bain753 is now known as bain_gec
01:48 AM gloops: 1000x1000 .5mm = £23
01:48 AM MarcelineVQ: that's a wallet dent. check price on a larger sheet, like a 2x3 or whatever is standard large sheet there
01:49 AM gloops: for the .5mm you add the cost of the mdf and the glue, maybe £35
01:50 AM roycroft: i'm going to be laminating some padouk veneer to some sheet steel for my router stand control panel
01:50 AM roycroft: i've never done wood veneer on metal before - i hope it works out well
01:51 AM roycroft: i'm planning on using contact cement
01:51 AM gloops: youve got a good chance with steel
01:51 AM roycroft: but i kind of wonder if epoxy would be better
01:51 AM roycroft: it will be small, which is in my favor
01:52 AM gloops: rough the steel up with 60 grit
01:52 AM roycroft: yeah, i have to have a surface that the adhesive can bite
01:53 AM gloops: flexible glue is better than hard stuff
01:53 AM roycroft: so the contact cement would be better
01:54 AM gloops: so ive read anyway heh, it makes sense, theyre going to expand differently, a hard bond is more likely to fail
01:55 AM roycroft: hide glue is traditional for veneer
01:55 AM roycroft: but i don't know how well it would stick to the steel
01:57 AM archivist: sticks like shit to a blanket
01:58 AM gloops: yes, to wood
01:58 AM roycroft: probably to steel as well
01:58 AM roycroft: but i expect that the contact cement will work well enough
02:00 AM gloops: silicone adhesive would work well
02:00 AM gloops: silicone sticks virtually anything to anything, except aluminium
02:01 AM MarcelineVQ: it sure does, just redid my tub
02:01 AM gloops: the wet application stuff is incredibly sticky, i got some on my phone its impossible to remove
02:03 AM gloops: sticks wet plastic to wet plastic, thats some glue
02:23 AM archivist: anyway a real craft worker uses a hand saw to cut out like that :)
02:25 AM gloops: maybe, but real craft workers live like students lol
02:27 AM gloops: all you need to do is take mdf sheet, roll or paint the glue on, bang the ally sheet on it, stick it in the router, click run, 1 hour later - £150 item, no sanding, no painting, no finishing
02:27 AM gloops: in the post
02:29 AM gloops: if you wanted to black or silver the mdf, spray the whole thing, run over ally with sander, or wipe off with thinners
02:33 AM archivist: polish burs from cut edges too
02:34 AM gloops: well, minimal finishing operations, desirable for any design
02:34 AM MarcelineVQ: cut the middle man, spray silver and cut your tree out, sand the silver and clearcoat, 300$ art piece
02:35 AM gloops: most of these heavy ornate resin frames are paint finish Marcel, the new ones
02:35 AM MarcelineVQ: "silver tree sign"
02:36 AM gloops: theres also a cold chroming process now, cold metal plating
02:36 AM gloops: too much messing about, if youre going to make any money its got to be quick
02:37 AM archivist: craft <> quick
02:37 AM gloops: its only the illusion of craft work
02:37 AM MarcelineVQ: cold chroming? like spraying a piece then eletro plating with those puffy wands?
02:38 AM gloops: who in the general public knows the difference
02:38 AM Deejay: moin
02:38 AM gloops: theres a two part spray process for chrome, pretty expensive to set up but not so expensive to do, also an electro process
02:39 AM gloops: you can chrome wood, plastic metal anything, look at some aerosol can tops, reflective chrome finish, or your plastic shower head
02:41 AM archivist: this kind of polish http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_07_15_Webb_Clock/P1010006.JPG
02:42 AM gloops: as if by magic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6kypid0XG0
02:42 AM archivist: fine wet and dry or 3M micron papaers
02:43 AM MarcelineVQ: the luck I have with aerosols I'd spray the chrome and it'd come out as a flakey rainbow
02:44 AM archivist: too thin gives light interference colours
02:45 AM archivist: the job I hate is final varnish on a clock dial
02:45 AM archivist: hand wiped
02:45 AM gloops: is that spray on archivist?
02:46 AM archivist: not spray hand wiped with a cloth/kitchen paper
02:46 AM gloops: thats alright!
02:47 AM Contract_Pilot: Wow thre planar touch screens are junk i think.
02:47 AM gloops: probably have to get a sealed laquer coating on wood
02:47 AM archivist: http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2003/2003_07_30_Dial_Norfolk/P1010008.JPG
02:47 AM Contract_Pilot: Lights off they are spectcular lights on cannot see crap
02:47 AM gloops: ive noticed this appearing in furniture shops a lot now, chrome wardrobes and beds, a bit of bling
02:48 AM archivist: I probably left the boss to do the lacquer on the dial
02:48 AM Contract_Pilot: to see with lights on they need to be tilted bigtim
02:48 AM Contract_Pilot: glare?
02:48 AM archivist: that dial job http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=norfolk+clock
02:49 AM archivist: had to rivet in new brass and hand engrave
02:49 AM gloops: Marcel you cant go too wrong with this stuff, you arent applying a coat, its just drenching the item
02:49 AM archivist: boss did posts and silvering I did the inserts and engraving
02:50 AM archivist: runs!
02:50 AM gloops: how do you get runs? lol
02:51 AM Contract_Pilot: I give up for the night..
02:51 AM archivist: if there is too much of some coating you get runs unless it is level
02:52 AM gloops: well, from past experience i dont want to get involved in any complicated finishing processes
02:52 AM archivist: good looks means good finishing :)
02:52 AM gloops: whats the problem Contract_Pilot
02:52 AM Contract_Pilot: The viewing bias angle
02:52 AM gloops: sell it unfinished
02:52 AM Contract_Pilot: or glare
02:53 AM Contract_Pilot: lights on cannot see crap
02:53 AM Contract_Pilot: lights off looks good
02:53 AM archivist: move your lights
02:53 AM Contract_Pilot: maybe the backlights are cooked
02:53 AM Contract_Pilot: It is shop light
02:54 AM Contract_Pilot: But tilt the monitor bigh time downword can see
02:58 AM Deejay: re
03:00 AM archivist: gloops, at the clockworks we had two prices for clock wheels, so the customer could finish or not
03:03 AM Contract_Pilot: I think these Moniors are Just Junk...
03:04 AM archivist: reflections are a fact of life with a gloss surface, user and lamp position
03:05 AM Contract_Pilot: This is Really Bad...
03:05 AM Contract_Pilot: Have to be at such extrem angle is is impossible to see.
03:05 AM Contract_Pilot: The tilt
03:06 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180111_000649-1024x576.jpg
03:06 AM Contract_Pilot: Extreem
03:07 AM Contract_Pilot: If Vertical so much reflection cannot see the box
03:08 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180110_235100-1-1024x576.jpg
03:09 AM Contract_Pilot: When tilted it is ok http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180111_000641-1024x576.jpg
03:10 AM Contract_Pilot: Lights off it is perfect... http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180110_233857-1024x576.jpg not gong to be machineing in the dark
03:10 AM gloops: right, last cup of tea then i better make this day count
03:11 AM gloops: Contract how about a shade for the monitor
03:12 AM gloops: https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.KZ-hz-PzTHYA_DzqulU6PQHaHa&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
03:12 AM gloops: can make those easy, probably only ten bob to buy
03:18 AM gloops: archivist i suppose it depends what your goal is, if you enjoy doing this stuff and can make a living thats acceptable to you, its fine, atm if/when i get this router going i need to demonstrate that it can actually turn a profit, otherwise i cant justify investing any more money or time on it, hopefully it will and ill be able to explore other machining and products
03:19 AM gloops: its dragged on though, i started the first one last summer, its probably going to be a whole year spent on this before i see a penny return, cant keep going on a wish forever
03:19 AM SpeedEvil: https://www.osapublishing.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-57-2-217 I need to read
03:19 AM SpeedEvil: High-speed real-time heterodyne interferometry using software-defined radio
03:19 AM SpeedEvil: Optical interferometry with SDR
03:20 AM Contract_Pilot: Wonder if there is a Glare Filter or somthing? or if the displays are just junk...
03:21 AM gloops: the displays are fine, get some shades on them or have them facing away from the light
03:27 AM Contract_Pilot: They are not facing the light thats just ambiant sop lighting
03:27 AM Contract_Pilot: shop
03:28 AM Contract_Pilot: Other Displays are just fine straight on.
03:48 AM Contract_Pilot: I think it is the reflectionof the light
03:57 AM Contract_Pilot: I think an anti glare filter will make it to dark.
04:31 AM XXCoder: bleh!
04:31 AM XXCoder: today ended up well but we had a surpise blackout at machine shop
04:31 AM XXCoder: a61 takes forever to recover lol
04:38 AM jthornton: morning
04:38 AM XXCoder: hey jt
04:50 AM Contract_Pilot: I think the display is way to glossy
04:51 AM XXCoder: what is?
04:51 AM XXCoder: oh see it
04:52 AM XXCoder: you need led montior with much wider view angle and also larger real contrast range
04:52 AM XXCoder: ignore dynimatic contrast, it's usually shit like 1000 contrast range but moving up and down with backlight brightness.
04:53 AM XXCoder: and machining in dark... sounds very safe lol
04:59 AM Contract_Pilot: Yea, was a gamble on these the specs wer good
05:00 AM Contract_Pilot: I guess i will take the hit on these..
05:00 AM XXCoder: is it led lcd montior?
05:00 AM Contract_Pilot: these are CCFL
05:00 AM XXCoder: tose usually is very bright and pretty decent on contrast
05:00 AM archivist: your screen resolution wont be visible behind a matt surface, so there is a compromise
05:00 AM Contract_Pilot: Somthing is not right
05:01 AM Contract_Pilot: theOLD IBM Monitor from 2004 is bright and clear
05:01 AM XXCoder: old ones dont use dynimatic contrast
05:01 AM Contract_Pilot: I am going to call planar the are local tomarroew
05:01 AM XXCoder: they use real and much larger contrast range
05:02 AM XXCoder: forgot what values was but around 10,000?
05:02 AM Contract_Pilot: Wondering if just a filter would work but them may be to dim to see
05:03 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.planar.com/products/desktop-touch-screen-monitors/19-inch/pt1945r/
05:03 AM Contract_Pilot: Unless the CCFL's are shot
05:04 AM XXCoder: reading specs
05:04 AM XXCoder: 1000 contrast
05:05 AM XXCoder: its led lit though
05:05 AM XXCoder: its much nicer with leds
05:05 AM Contract_Pilot: Says Contains Mecurry
05:06 AM XXCoder: ccfl does. led ones does not. unless its also elsewhere dunno
05:08 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180110_214752-1024x576.jpg
05:08 AM Contract_Pilot: Says Lamps
05:08 AM XXCoder: strange. leds definitely does not use mecury at all
05:08 AM XXCoder: ccfl certainly does.
05:08 AM XXCoder: wonder if its design change and they failed to update sticker lol
05:10 AM Contract_Pilot: butshould be able to see it clarley
05:10 AM Contract_Pilot: Clearley
05:10 AM Contract_Pilot: Clearly
05:10 AM XXCoder: how old is yours?
05:10 AM Contract_Pilot: Not Sure No Date
05:10 AM XXCoder: I'm kinda wondering if ccfl is getting old
05:10 AM XXCoder: it does get dim with age
05:11 AM Contract_Pilot: Yea, Thats what I am Wondering both did take a little time to warm up
05:12 AM Contract_Pilot: They are e-bay Specials
05:12 AM XXCoder: you could swap ccfl with leds
05:12 AM XXCoder: there is online projects on that, you need a new controller board also, tny strip circuit board
05:13 AM XXCoder: may be much cheaper?
05:13 AM XXCoder: touchscreen may be different dunno
05:15 AM Contract_Pilot: Not sure...
05:15 AM Contract_Pilot: Will call factory they are local area
05:15 AM XXCoder: nice
05:15 AM Contract_Pilot: If Bad CCFL's well going back
05:15 AM Contract_Pilot: I am in Vancouver, WA they are Beverton Oregon
05:16 AM XXCoder: heh lived at vancoiver for long time
05:16 AM XXCoder: at tacoma now
05:18 AM Contract_Pilot: Yea, I am looking at youtume and bad PSU or CCFL Worn Out
05:24 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: did that once on an IBM X21... MAN was that a PITA
05:24 AM XXCoder: ccfl->led conversion>
05:24 AM XXCoder: ?
05:24 AM Loetmichel: yes
05:25 AM XXCoder: cool
05:25 AM Loetmichel: to dismantle the LCD to get the ccfl out an the LED strip in... and then remount it without a ton of dirt inside...
05:26 AM Loetmichel: ... not to mention that is was less then trivial to get the CCFL inverter control voltage from the x21 control an LED driver that wasnt meant for that kind of thing ;)
05:26 AM XXCoder: :) I guess it was special for some reasob?
05:26 AM Loetmichel: IBM
05:26 AM Loetmichel: all is special there ;)
05:27 AM XXCoder: lol
05:27 AM gloops: the way time passes doing work on a machine..you would think bolting it back together would be an hours job
05:27 AM Loetmichel: it was about 100% brighter afterwards though
05:55 AM Tom_L: 31F & sleet
05:55 AM jthornton: 58°F and wet
05:56 AM Tom_L: low 12 today
05:57 AM Tom_L: the mercury is headed in the wrong direction
05:57 AM jthornton: lol we will get that crap tonight
05:58 AM XXCoder: 40s F and raining fooooorever
05:58 AM XXCoder: its getting bad as usual, we had blackout at work lol
05:58 AM XXCoder: brief but there was no winds, no nothing. just rain
06:01 AM Tom_L: oh we got wind too
06:01 AM jthornton: kinda windy here
06:03 AM Tom_L: wind gusts exceeding 40mph
06:05 AM XXCoder: fun
06:34 AM Tom_L: yeah body shops love days like this
06:35 AM XXCoder: car body shops?
06:36 AM Tom_L: uh huh
06:45 AM MarcelineVQ: a little fresh air in the shop for once?
06:52 AM XXCoder: it went well for me, but other guy ouch heh blackout caused facemill to shatter all inserts
06:52 AM XXCoder: he was working on very hard metal so yeah
06:53 AM MarcelineVQ: :(
06:53 AM MarcelineVQ: what's that $120 blackout for that once machine?
06:53 AM MarcelineVQ: one
06:53 AM XXCoder: its $40 per insert, 5 inserts
06:53 AM MarcelineVQ: bleh
06:53 AM MarcelineVQ: $40 inserts my goodness
06:54 AM XXCoder: yeah. in my case only loss was roughly 40 minutes of my time, with no machine time
06:55 AM XXCoder: more properly 75 minutes (45 minutes, 30 minutes) since I was runnign 2 mill cell.
06:55 AM XXCoder: everyone else it was all okay, much shorter recovery time
06:58 AM XXCoder: anyway night :) hopefully tomorrow is better :P
06:58 AM jthornton: see you later
06:58 AM MarcelineVQ: bai
06:58 AM XXCoder: just glad I could recover it fine as theres nobody there on 2nd shift that knows how cell works in some cases.
07:45 AM gloops: lesson number 1, if you get the machine working right, DONT dismantle it to paint it
07:48 AM archivist: sounds like someone broke it
07:49 AM gloops: not broke, but not just going back as it was
07:50 AM gloops: think when i finished the welds off underneath its shifted stuff about, not working on the same marks
07:50 AM gloops: so yet another quick job becomes a slog
08:14 AM JT-Shop: I wonder if I need anything else from McMaster besides a $4 shaft collar...
08:17 AM MarcelineVQ: lint free towels and a concrete vibrator
08:24 AM syyl: sounds like a hell of a weekend.
08:37 AM MarcelineVQ: gotta keep busy
08:45 AM Contract_Pilot: I am thinking the backlight is shot on these displays to bad
08:49 AM Contract_Pilot: Contrast and Brightness Controls have almost no affect.
08:49 AM Contract_Pilot: Could be Powersuppl Issue also.
08:54 AM archivist: use proper diagnosis rather than assumptions, if this then that else other possibilities
08:56 AM Contract_Pilot: Yep, Will dive further in to it this weekend..
09:00 AM Contract_Pilot: Right now the fact is somthing is broken...
09:00 AM gloops: theres more slots in this router frame than blackpool pleasure beach lol
09:02 AM archivist: it is interesting in that some trades although they have to find out why something fails to work, dont teach the basics of fault finding
09:14 AM Tom_L: 20F
09:14 AM Tom_L: nice temp drop right after it rained
09:15 AM gloops: a lot of tradesmen ten to work on experience, no fault finding strategy
09:15 AM gloops: which works 8 times out of 10 id guess
09:15 AM archivist: the damage from the other two.....
09:17 AM Tom_L: managed to get the final motor mount done last evening
09:17 AM gloops: true, we had an electrical fault with our boiler, the clowns who fitted it must have come back 5 times, only when they got someone who knew what he was doing, and he said the exact same - ive told them they need a strategy for fault finding
09:17 AM archivist: we had a scatter gun fault finder at a previous job, the boards would become unusable after he had them for half a day replacing random parts
09:17 AM gloops: was a wire that looked like it was in the connector, but wasnt
09:19 AM Contract_Pilot: Headed to my post op here in about 10-15min hope all is well
10:49 AM Contract_Pilot: All got at surg site whoo hoo
10:49 AM Contract_Pilot: good
11:00 AM gloops: this could be stressful for the wrong type of person lol
11:06 AM Contract_Pilot: gloops what ya doing
11:06 AM gloops: only making a router
11:07 AM Contract_Pilot: Ahhh always fun...
11:07 AM gloops: it has taken twice as long as i thought
11:07 AM Contract_Pilot: I am 3 years on my lathe and 3rd revision hahaha
11:08 AM Contract_Pilot: Sucks these moniotors are crap.
11:08 AM gloops: lol, this wont be going on that long
11:08 AM MarcelineVQ: oh :>
11:08 AM Contract_Pilot: Ruskins Law ... got me but said refirbished
11:09 AM gloops: i would say 50% of the time has been dismantling and reassembly, i never factored that in
11:09 AM gloops: and it is mind numbing
11:09 AM Contract_Pilot: https://www.ebay.com/itm/312028193918
11:10 AM Contract_Pilot: Not 100% Functional at all...
11:10 AM gloops: the screens do look a bit reflective there
11:10 AM gloops: unless its just the photo
11:10 AM Contract_Pilot: They should be bright
11:10 AM Contract_Pilot: regardless
11:11 AM Contract_Pilot: Brightness & Contrast control has very little effect
11:11 AM gloops: any other settings? software settings maybe?
11:12 AM gloops: vibrance maybe
11:12 AM Contract_Pilot: Looked and looked
11:12 AM Contract_Pilot: nada
11:12 AM Contract_Pilot: Even with the lights off the blues are very faint
11:12 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/20180111_021946-1024x576.jpg
11:12 AM gloops: graphics card
11:13 AM Contract_Pilot: Similar monitor in a 17"nice and bright
11:13 AM gloops: thats in the shade though
11:15 AM Contract_Pilot: In the shop light the 17 is very bright
11:17 AM gloops: archivist should know about that he used to repair TVs
11:17 AM archivist: we had real CRTs then
11:18 AM MarcelineVQ: new monitor is what, 60 bucks on amazon for americans?
11:18 AM gloops: get some shades on them, look at arcade games they always have sides
11:18 AM gregcnc: seller is not being helpful?
11:18 AM archivist: I think he has bought ex supermarket stuff from a rip off merchant
11:19 AM Contract_Pilot: Yea, i think these backlights are just worn out.
11:19 AM gregcnc: cfl?
11:19 AM Contract_Pilot: MarcelineVQ not a touch screen
11:20 AM MarcelineVQ: ohh neato
11:20 AM gloops: i bet theyve been poked to hell
11:20 AM Contract_Pilot: Well these are usless...
11:21 AM gloops: money back
11:21 AM Contract_Pilot: Think i gonna finish the blog and RMA them
11:21 AM archivist: sellers feedback is not as high as it could be
11:22 AM Contract_Pilot: If they were referbished and actually work as they should they would be great
11:22 AM gloops: well my beautiful gliding gantry is back, z backplate is a touch out though, maybe have another hour later, every step is like having a back tooth ripped out
11:22 AM MarcelineVQ: tried it out yet?
11:22 AM gloops: the chance would be a fine thing!
11:23 AM MarcelineVQ: not now but before
11:23 AM gloops: not with motors, turned beautifully with finger and thumb, turning the screws
11:23 AM MarcelineVQ: what you paintin it for without givin it some work you silly billy :O
11:24 AM gloops: i know i wouldnt take it to bits once it was working, thought id paint it first, may as well get it out the way
11:24 AM gloops: ironic thing is the paint is shit anyway, i wished id left it
11:24 AM gregcnc: if you want to paint do it before you start using it or it will never get painted
11:25 AM archivist: never mind the sticky paint will stop the chips getting on the floor
11:25 AM gloops: that was my thinking gregcnc, with wood as well you need the frame clean, dont want to be handling rusty greasy steel it will mark the wood
11:25 AM gloops: i abandoned the black, its grey
11:27 AM gloops: i hear a lot about crunchy sbr bearings, my conclusion is - it isnt the bearings, its the machines theyre on, these only have to be very very slightly twisted ot misaligned and they grate
11:29 AM Tom_L: gloops you losing patience with your build?
11:29 AM archivist: when the scraper rubbers wear I imagine sbr will get lumpy
11:30 AM gloops: Tom_L no not yet, im am pissed off with the time its taking, but not far to go
11:31 AM Tom_L: lots of assembly re'assembly ehh?
11:32 AM gloops: its something i didnt really think through, the way its made a lot of things had to be marked in situ, and involved putting it all back together, marking, then taking it all to bits to mill or whatever
11:32 AM gloops: this time its all been stripped to paint it
11:32 AM miss0r: the router?
11:32 AM Tom_L: been there done that :D
11:32 AM gloops: yeah
11:33 AM miss0r: Do you have any damn pictures yet ?! :)
11:33 AM Tom_L: and i don't get that many hours on it anyway
11:33 AM Contract_Pilot: Problem: Vague image (characters and graphics)
11:33 AM Contract_Pilot: ► Use "Fine" to make an adjustment. If this problem persists, use "Horizontal size"
11:33 AM Contract_Pilot: to make an adjustment.
11:33 AM gloops: miss0r nah, it is very photogenic though if i say so myself
11:33 AM Contract_Pilot: Will try what the manual says when i wake up for the day
11:33 AM Tom_L: gloops you see the Z motor mount i did last evening?
11:33 AM Tom_L: one step closer
11:33 AM gloops: Tom dont think so i went to bed early last night
11:34 AM miss0r: :)
11:34 AM Contract_Pilot: Prob just a waste of time but the chances of 2 monitors?
11:34 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Z_Motormount4.jpg
11:34 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Z_Motormount3.jpg
11:34 AM archivist: Contract_Pilot, the numbers http://www.dynascanusa.com/2015/11/display-brightness-vs-ambient-light/
11:35 AM Contract_Pilot: http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180110_212112-1024x576.jpg
11:35 AM miss0r: Tom_L: what kind of accuracy are you expecting to get?
11:35 AM gloops: nice job Tom, thats pretty much the way ive been working, maybe slightly less attention to neatness on mine haha
11:35 AM Tom_L: miss0r better than my sherline :)
11:35 AM miss0r: hehe no doubt
11:36 AM Tom_L: i'm not really sure yet but i know it will be better than that but worse than a commercial machine
11:36 AM Tom_L: but lots more rigid than the sherline
11:36 AM gloops: the mistake im making is in predicting something will be done in x amount of time
11:36 AM Tom_L: i'm in no hurry
11:36 AM miss0r: gloops, Tom_L: if you need something specific part(s) CNC milled, I won't mind donating the time to help you out. You'll just need to pay the postage.
11:36 AM miss0r: and material, if I don't have it in stock
11:36 AM Tom_L: i knew i had limited time to work on it
11:37 AM gloops: im just gonna keep working on it and it will be done when its done, and thats that
11:37 AM Tom_L: miss0r a bud of mine had a cnc shop full of machines and when he retired he kept one and his manual machines
11:37 AM Tom_L: so i think i'm set there but thanks
11:37 AM miss0r: That sounds like a good friend to have ;)
11:38 AM Tom_L: i've got access to plenty of material too
11:38 AM gloops: im all but done with the mechanical stuff miss0r but thanks anyway, ill remember when i start the 10x5 lol
11:38 AM roycroft: your situation is what i'm not looking forward to, gloops
11:38 AM Contract_Pilot: Have to tilt it to a severe angle to view it should not have t0.. http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/20180111_000641-1024x576.jpg
11:38 AM Tom_L: both aluminum surplus as well as iron
11:38 AM roycroft: whenever i do my mill/drill conversion i'll need to make the parts with the mill
11:38 AM roycroft: but i'll have to disassemble the mill to fit the parts
11:38 AM Tom_L: miss0r have a peek: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/local_stock/stock_index.php
11:38 AM miss0r: roycroft: thats why you should always have two of each :P
11:38 AM gloops: roycroft im probably just crap at making machines heh, im sure people do it quicker than this
11:38 AM roycroft: i figure there will be a number of rounds of disassembly/reassembly before i'm done
11:39 AM miss0r: Tom_L: sweet
11:39 AM roycroft: our situation is not uncommon
11:39 AM miss0r: gloops: I'm starting to think there is no machine :)
11:39 AM * miss0r want pictures
11:39 AM roycroft: miss0r's solution is best, but not feasible for many folks
11:39 AM Tom_L: they've got some 12" or bigger roundbar if you need some for your lathe
11:40 AM Tom_L: yeah gloops is just complaining, he really has no machine
11:40 AM Contract_Pilot: Ok nap time was a long night last night
11:40 AM miss0r: Tom_L: The issue is that the shipping price will be huge with the distance :)
11:40 AM gloops: theres a machine dont worry haha, ill get some pics this weekend
11:40 AM Tom_L: miss0r i'm aware of that
11:40 AM Tom_L: cold ass day here but i'm gonna grab some lunch and go to work on it a bit i think
11:41 AM miss0r: My local scrapyard recieves alot of cut-offs from a local company. They keep the material markings for it, and sell it on to people like me. They have most everything :)
11:41 AM Tom_L: i got lucky at the iron scrap the other day
11:41 AM miss0r: Tom_L: ouch, the distance. I just finished dinner, and am in the shop :)
11:41 AM miss0r: I need to complete the books for 2017 tonight. I hate paper work
11:42 AM Tom_L: i'd gotten a rusty plate to use on the base of the Z column but happened by there on the right day to find BRAND NEW cutoffs of plate so i grabbed some
11:42 AM miss0r: sweet :]
11:42 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Z_Column_Standoff2.jpg
11:42 AM Tom_L: that's some of the new stuff
11:43 AM miss0r: That thing is gonna me heavy ! :)
11:43 AM miss0r: Are you planning to fill the tubes with anything?
11:43 AM Tom_L: i'm not sure yet
11:43 AM Tom_L: i may
11:43 AM miss0r: the z-column would surely be improved with some sand filler
11:45 AM Tom_L: i did one redesign before going with what i've got now
11:45 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Steel6.jpg
11:46 AM miss0r: I'm not saying it is bad in any way, don't get me wrong. But with all that steel, you might want to consider doing something to dampen the construction
11:46 AM Tom_L: that was one idea i had which turned out to be not such a good one
11:46 AM Tom_L: i figured it may be noisy
11:46 AM miss0r: :]
11:46 AM Tom_L: i'll cross that when i get there
11:47 AM miss0r: yeah. thats the beauty of sand filler
11:48 AM roycroft: when i built the stand for my mill/drill i filled the tubing with sand to add mass and dampening
11:49 AM roycroft: i still get more resonance than i'd like, but i think that most of that is from the machine itself
11:49 AM miss0r: Yeah, you can't beat'em all
11:50 AM roycroft: and there are heaps of folks who have added granite/epoxy mises or other fillers to dampen vibration on those
11:50 AM roycroft: some claim to have achieved excellent results
11:50 AM roycroft: when i do the cnc conversion i'll consider doing some of that, since i'll have the machine apart anyway
11:52 AM miss0r: I have heard good stuff about the epoxy granite mixture... I've read somewhere that it dampens something like 11 times more than that of cast iron
11:53 AM IchGucksLive: hi
11:53 AM miss0r: o/
11:58 AM JT-Shop: lovely my ssl went up to $60
12:00 PM * roycroft seems to recall offering jt-shop an ssl cert for really cheap a year or so ago
12:00 PM sync: well, ssl certs are free now
12:00 PM sync: so eh
12:00 PM roycroft: crappy ones that have to be renewed all the time
12:01 PM JT-Shop: yea but webhost4live won't use it
12:01 PM roycroft: oh, right
12:01 PM roycroft: you use a nickel and dime hosting service :)
12:01 PM JT-Shop: might need a new web host lol
12:01 PM roycroft: iirc you actually bought a cert from me and we had to cancel it, now that i think a big harder on it
12:02 PM JT-Shop: aye
12:03 PM JT-Shop: purchase price $40 renewal price $60
12:03 PM archivist: get you hooked marketing
12:04 PM roycroft: we have customers who left us for a cheaper isp, get zero support from their new isp, expect us to continue to supportt them, and then find out that they're actually paying more for their new hosting service
12:04 PM roycroft: but they never come back to us because the new hosting service makes it impossible to quit
12:04 PM roycroft: i call it "godaddy syndrome"
12:04 PM archivist: some sharp practices about
12:05 PM JT-Shop: they were worse by far
12:05 PM roycroft: yeah, but they have that cute woman race car driver
12:05 PM roycroft: so they're the best
12:07 PM phipli: mine costs a load more than it did
12:07 PM phipli: but it still isn't terrible
12:07 PM phipli: if it carries on much longer I'll have to review alternatives
12:08 PM phipli: irritating how difficult it is to actually work out how much they cost though
12:09 PM roycroft: what most folks don't realize is that there are all different kinds of ssl certs
12:09 PM gloops: i had the base of mine upended the other day, its rock solid but.. if i tapped it, it rang like a bell, humming for minutes
12:09 PM roycroft: and the free ones are all but totally useless
12:09 PM roycroft: all they do is encrypt
12:09 PM roycroft: they do no domain verification/business verification
12:09 PM miss0r: What are you guys doing with your ssl certs?
12:09 PM phipli: I don't have one
12:10 PM roycroft: with the free ones, pretending to operate secure, trustworthy websites
12:10 PM phipli: (was talking about the hosting services in general)
12:10 PM miss0r: I mean: I've handled quite a few, but thoes were only for web services
12:10 PM miss0r: alright :) I didn't realize so many of you had web sites
12:10 PM roycroft: the type that jt has is a step up from that
12:10 PM phipli: how else would we check on our pets?
12:10 PM miss0r: I also run a website, but I don't care much abour looking trustworthy :]
12:11 PM roycroft: before it is issued it verifies that the person purchasing the cert owns the domain for which it is issued
12:11 PM gregcnc: ebay won't even let you host your own img without ssl
12:11 PM roycroft: the premium certs, such as what all banks, credit card companies, large corporations use verify that the domain is tied to a legitimate business before being issued
12:12 PM roycroft: the issuers check corporate registration records, do a dunn and bradstreet query about the business before issuing the cert
12:12 PM roycroft: which is one reason they are as expensive as they are
12:13 PM roycroft: the main reason, of course, is that they can get away with charging a lot of money
12:13 PM roycroft: i won't say it's scammy
12:13 PM roycroft: but it's opportunistic, at the very least
12:18 PM Tom_L: most shopping for one have no clue anyway
12:19 PM roycroft: correct
12:19 PM roycroft: and a lot of people have the "if it costs more it must be better" mindset
12:19 PM sync: roycroft: they are not crappy
12:19 PM Tom_L: what... that's not true!!???
12:19 PM sync: and the renewal can be done automated, so eh
12:19 PM JT-Shop: one more keyway to cut then time to weld
12:19 PM roycroft: yes they are - they are all but meaningless
12:19 PM sync: no
12:20 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop what you workin on?
12:20 PM roycroft: but go ahead and give your credit card number to sites that use those
12:20 PM sync: they are about as meaningless as "actual" certs
12:20 PM roycroft: i won't try to stop you :)
12:20 PM sync: why wouldn't I?
12:20 PM sync: if I get scammed I just phone my bank and get a refund
12:20 PM sync: that is why one has a CC
12:21 PM roycroft: and read the fine print on their terms and conditions
12:21 PM Tom_L: i can't, it's usually too small
12:21 PM roycroft: if you get scammed and the amount is >$100 the cards often won't do the chargeback if the merchant is across state lines
12:21 PM roycroft: foreign companies are definitely across state lines
12:21 PM sync: lol no
12:22 PM sync: what kind of shit bank works like that
12:22 PM roycroft: all of them, in the past
12:22 PM roycroft: that's slowly changinb
12:22 PM roycroft: changing
12:22 PM sync: never encountered that
12:22 PM roycroft: but there's still a lot of 1980s mentality in financial circles
12:22 PM sync: and I use mine everywhere
12:22 PM roycroft: the terms used to state that if the vendor was more than 100 miles away they would not do chargebacks
12:22 PM roycroft: even within the same state
12:23 PM gregcnc: i'm not sure that laws are the same in EU
12:23 PM roycroft: i'm sure they're completely different
12:23 PM roycroft: those kinds of laws in the us are not written by our congress
12:23 PM roycroft: they're written by wall street and dicated to our congress
12:23 PM sync: I have never ever seen such a clause
12:24 PM roycroft: "consumer protection" in the united states means "government intervention to stifle the free market's right to steal and lie and cheat"
12:24 PM roycroft: caveat emptor is the only rule
12:26 PM roycroft: the eu may be overregulated, but at least there is actual consumer protection there
12:26 PM gloops: the eu is a complete rip off
12:26 PM sync: yes, it obviously is
12:29 PM archivist: so bad we voted it off our island :)
12:30 PM roycroft: i won't question the wisdom of having done that any more, archivist
12:30 PM roycroft: i think that argument has been thoroughly hashed out by now
12:31 PM roycroft: i do still question the wisdom of retaining your current government, given its demonstrated ineptitude in negitiating the brexit agreements with the eu
12:32 PM archivist: hard negotiating with a brick wall that does not understand the errors of its ways
12:33 PM gloops: too many fifth columnists here roycroft
12:33 PM roycroft: jingoism is not going to prevail
12:34 PM roycroft: the eu is tougher than that
12:34 PM archivist: the only way to deal with a tough bully is get out of the room
12:35 PM gloops: these career politicians, sorry excuses for statesmen all depend on a cushy job on some EU committee when the english voters finally see through their two faced rhetoric
12:35 PM archivist: countries overspending like Greece sucking our money
12:35 PM roycroft: and there's the other part of it
12:35 PM roycroft: "the english voters"
12:35 PM roycroft: *they* wanted brexit
12:35 PM roycroft: the rest of the uk did not
12:36 PM roycroft: but are being forced to go along with it
12:36 PM MarcelineVQ: heard something about a thoroughly hashed out argument
12:36 PM archivist: same when we went in
12:36 PM roycroft: yes
12:36 PM roycroft: that's been the case all along
12:37 PM gregcnc: so which free ssl are worth using?
12:37 PM archivist: I just missed voting age on the way in
12:37 PM roycroft: none of them, imo :)
12:37 PM gloops: they were conned on the way in, they voted not to join first time
12:37 PM gloops: the great Liar Heath put a new deal on the table, which was accepted
12:38 PM roycroft: archivist: i've been saying for decades that a common currency without a common fiscal policy is ludicrous
12:38 PM roycroft: but the euro is not the eu
12:38 PM roycroft: and the brits were wise not to adopt the euro
12:38 PM sync: gloops: lets encrypt works fine
12:39 PM roycroft: the question now is:
12:39 PM roycroft: post-brexit, when you go back to your nice blue passports, will you also return to pre-decimal currency? :)
12:40 PM gloops: roycroft i dont know, but whatever we do will decided by the british voters in british parliament
12:41 PM archivist: no need to change currency
12:41 PM roycroft: nor the passport color
12:41 PM roycroft: yet that seems to be ukip's wet dream coming true
12:41 PM archivist: there is a need to bring jobs back from the continent and further
12:41 PM gloops: i think the passport should go back to its original colour
12:42 PM roycroft: which is why the two bidders for your passports are firms in germany and france?
12:42 PM gloops: leaving the EU doesnt mean we completely isolate ourselves and stop all foreign trade
12:43 PM gloops: on the contrary we can trade with the world on the terms we make with individual nations
12:43 PM roycroft: except hard brexit will effectively mean that, in the short term at least
12:43 PM gloops: theres no such thing as hard brexit
12:43 PM gloops: theres brexit or not
12:43 PM roycroft: and your government are so utterly incompetent they won't be able to "negotiate" anything but a hard brexit
12:44 PM roycroft: i'm doubtful there will be a trade agreement on brexit day
12:44 PM enleth: gregcnc: Let's Encrypt
12:44 PM enleth: gregcnc: look no further
12:44 PM roycroft: which is ridiculous
12:44 PM gloops: it will mean exactly the opposite, we will be free to trade with markets 3 times the size of the EU on the terms we make
12:44 PM gregcnc: yeah read a bit now, seems the way to go for me
12:45 PM gloops: UK manufacturing and exports are at the highest now since 1974
12:48 PM enleth: roycroft: uh, where exactly did you see a free SSL cert service that does not do domain ownership checks and *isn't* totally blacklisted by all browsers?
12:50 PM roycroft: letsencrypt, for one
12:50 PM enleth: er, bullshit?
12:50 PM roycroft: my boss just installed some software the other day that requires a cert, and the software automatically got it for him
12:50 PM roycroft: it asked him the usual questions
12:51 PM roycroft: but he gave an email address that was not associated with the domain in any way and it emailed the cert to that
12:51 PM roycroft: i bought a proper cert right after that and installed it
12:51 PM enleth: roycroft: did it deliver the certificate, or the private key?
12:51 PM roycroft: it delivered the cert
12:52 PM roycroft: the software generated the private key
12:52 PM enleth: so... it delivered a piece of PUBLIC data and you're upset about that?
12:52 PM roycroft: it issued a certificate to a random person
12:53 PM roycroft: thus the certificate is meaningless
12:54 PM enleth: so far you said it was sent to an email address not associated with the domain it was issued for
12:54 PM roycroft: yes
12:54 PM enleth: this has nothing to do with anything
12:54 PM enleth: I mean, this has no connection to whether a domain ownership check was performed or not
12:54 PM enleth: none whatsoever
12:55 PM jym: admin@megacorp ---> OurSpiffyNewProduct.com
12:55 PM jym: err <---
12:56 PM enleth: the domain you're requesting a cert for might not even have a mail server associated with it at all
12:56 PM enleth: case in point: the cert might be FOR the mail server
12:56 PM roycroft: the contacts for the cert should match the registrant or admin contact for the domain, at the very least
12:56 PM enleth: which is not up at that point yet because it's got no cert
12:56 PM enleth: irrelevant
12:56 PM * jym questions more the "Install software... to generate a secret key" more than anything else
12:57 PM roycroft: that is how domain ownership is "verified"
12:57 PM enleth: no, it's not
12:57 PM roycroft: and there is not too much meaning to domain verification
12:57 PM roycroft: which is why the premium certs do the sos and d&b checks
12:57 PM enleth: roycroft: did you buy an EV cert instead?
12:57 PM enleth: or just a generic $40/yr paid one?
12:57 PM roycroft: generally we don't
12:58 PM enleth: only EV certs require business registration checks etc.
12:58 PM roycroft: i buy the basic domain verification certs
12:58 PM roycroft: yes, i'm well aware of that
12:58 PM roycroft: and i'm not an end user/consumer
12:58 PM roycroft: i'm a reseller of the certs, and an isp
12:58 PM roycroft: i know how they work
12:58 PM roycroft: i deal with them on a daily basis
12:58 PM roycroft: and when they do
12:58 PM enleth: so you get exactly the same verification methods as LE - they're checking wherher you added a TXT record, or served a file with a nonce value over HTTP, or somerhing like that
12:59 PM roycroft: no, they chack that the registrant or admin contact matches the certificate purchaser
12:59 PM jym: SSL is not really all that secure anyone, just keeps from transmitting plain text.
12:59 PM roycroft: if not, there is a process to manually verify
01:00 PM enleth: roycroft: well, some might do, nice to hear, no one mandates this though
01:00 PM roycroft: but if megacorp.com owns widgets.com, and lists megacorp.com as its contacts in the registration record, i can get a cert issued using an email address at megacorp.com or at wigets.com
01:00 PM roycroft: but not random.com
01:00 PM roycroft: that stops the process
01:00 PM sync: yeah but why
01:01 PM sync: if my admin stuff runs through random.com why not?
01:01 PM jym: roycroft: There is no differcne between megacorp.com and ransomeware.com
01:01 PM roycroft: then you need to set random.com as your administrative contact if you want the domain verification to work automatically
01:01 PM roycroft: and if you don't
01:01 PM roycroft: there is a mechanism to manually verify
01:02 PM enleth: roycroft: still, that does not have anything to do with technical domain ownership verification which you claim that LE did not do at all
01:02 PM sync: even if I get an EV cert I can still be a malicious party or just get a cert from a company that runs their service with #yolo in mind
01:02 PM roycroft: this has nothing to do with verifying that widgets.com is actually owned by widgets, inc.
01:02 PM gregcnc: how do they know what you'll be doing with the site or that any ofthe information submitted is real?
01:02 PM enleth: roycroft: go install that software you boss had again and request a cert for google.com, see if you get it
01:04 PM enleth: roycroft: that software probably plugged into apache or whichever httpd was there, or started up its own for a moment, to demonstrate to the LE server that whoever owns the private key, also has administrative access to whatever the domain points to and
01:04 PM roycroft: possibly
01:04 PM enleth: *s/and$//
01:05 PM enleth: (if it couldn't, such as a server that's not publicly reachable yet, it would be TXT records etc.)
01:05 PM jym: Shit, I cna generate a ssl key for nsa.gov right now
01:05 PM roycroft: i can guarantee that it did not use any txt records to verify
01:05 PM roycroft: because i manage dns for the domain
01:05 PM enleth: so it was checked through HTTP
01:06 PM roycroft: actually, i don't think it was, because the machine is in private address space and unreachable outside our office network
01:06 PM enleth: the LE client software usually plugs into an existing httpd (after getting a confirmation from the admin that it's OK to do that)
01:06 PM roycroft: i don't even know why the stupid cert was issued and installed in the first place
01:06 PM roycroft: it is completely unnecessary
01:06 PM roycroft: but it was
01:06 PM roycroft: and my boss said to get a "real" one so i did
01:07 PM roycroft: that whole thing has been a nightmare for me
01:08 PM roycroft: my boss was doing stuff without telling me, and then expecting that i could fix all his problems
01:08 PM MarcelineVQ: isn't that the normal boss experience?
01:08 PM jym: roycroft: <--- poor bastard
01:08 PM enleth: well I don't have access to this environment so I can't go and check what happened for you, but given two possibilites: 1) LE issusing certs willy-nilly for anything without verification, and 2) you or your boss not being aware what really happened and how, or not understanding some part of the process - I'd go for 2), sorry
01:08 PM roycroft: the software uses a framework i've never used, is written in python, which i don't use, requires nginx, which i have nefer used ...
01:09 PM roycroft: yet i'm supposed to be able to fix all the problems in an instant
01:09 PM enleth: roycroft: if it's really 1), we've got a zero day vulnerability material here and you should go public with it at some infosec site, because Google, Mozilla, et al might be very interested in it
01:10 PM enleth: slim chance (but it's there, I can't say for sure)
01:10 PM roycroft: well i don't see how a cert can be issued and not call it "willy nilly" when dns was not changed, the website is unreachable from the outside world, and the cert was emailed to an address that is not one of the listed domain contacts
01:10 PM roycroft: i'm not getting how they could have verified it in any way
01:10 PM roycroft: anyone can do a public records lookup to get the legal name and address of a company, even if the domain has whois privacy enabled
01:11 PM jym: roycroft: It's a free cert, you get what you pay for. Most free certs are just to prevent browder nag of self-signed certs and to prevent passing credentials in plain text (aka logins)
01:11 PM roycroft: correct, jym
01:12 PM roycroft: but some here are claming that a free cert is every bit as valid as a commercial cert
01:12 PM sync: which they are
01:12 PM sync: effectively
01:12 PM roycroft: my experience is that they're not
01:12 PM jthornton: https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2424725,00.asp
01:12 PM sync: as the commercial cert authorities have failed to show any benefit over something else
01:12 PM jthornton: godaddy listed in the top 10 lol
01:12 PM roycroft: we're way way way off topic here now, btw
01:12 PM roycroft: although cert wars are probably less distasteful than brexit wars :)
01:12 PM jym: roycroft: What is the worse that's going to happen? Someone is going t impersonate your domain what that free cert?
01:13 PM enleth: jym: does "you get what you pay for" apply to linux, or linuxcnc for that matter, too? if someone comes here and says it's shit because it's free, are they right?
01:13 PM enleth: this saying is way overused
01:14 PM enleth: roycroft: again, please go get (or ask the boss to get, the same way he did it already) a cert for google.com on that server, see how it goes
01:14 PM jym: enleth: I meant in respect to validation/authentication of the person requesting it and
01:14 PM jym: enleth: err person issuing it
01:14 PM roycroft: i'd have to set up local dns for google.com and install the software on a vm that is named google.com to do that kind of check
01:14 PM roycroft: i'm not going to do that - way too much effort
01:15 PM roycroft: i'd actually have to set up a dns server for that fake google.com zone
01:15 PM roycroft: or at the very least set up different view on one of my production dns servers for that particular host so i can load the fake google.com zone into that view
01:16 PM enleth: roycroft: uh, it's the LE server that does the domain name resolution, not the software you're running
01:16 PM roycroft: yet it did not do that
01:16 PM roycroft: it could not have
01:17 PM roycroft: since the software is running on a machine in private address space, with no outside dns
01:17 PM jthornton: what is shared hosting? https://www.dreamhost.com/hosting/shared/
01:17 PM roycroft: i would never publish public dns records for hosts in private address space
01:17 PM MarcelineVQ: jthornton: multiple sites vm'd on one box
01:17 PM roycroft: shared hosting usually means your website instance is on a machine with a bunch of other ones
01:18 PM roycroft: usually using jails or chroot
01:18 PM enleth: roycroft: do you still have this public cert file from the email? I'd be very interested to take a look at it
01:19 PM roycroft: as opposed to a virtual machine, where you get your own entire machine instance vs. a websiste instance, or a dedicated machine where you get all the hardware for yourself
01:19 PM jthornton: I wonder what webhost4life has
01:19 PM roycroft: shared hosting often shares your ip address with the other tenants on the machine as well
01:19 PM roycroft: it was sent to my boss, enleth - i did not get it
01:19 PM roycroft: and when i installed the commercial cert i wiped it, so it's not on the machine any more
01:20 PM roycroft: it might be on a backup server still, but it would take effort to dig it out and restore it
01:20 PM roycroft: it's possible that my boss had to do some other kind of verification to get it, but he has not indicated that he did anythign
01:21 PM roycroft: he claims the the process was automated
01:21 PM roycroft: but
01:21 PM roycroft: he's a boss
01:21 PM roycroft: he's never been very communicative
01:21 PM roycroft: and he's in his '70s and does not have the memory he used to have
01:22 PM roycroft: all i can tell you for sure is that dns was not used to verify, nor was html
01:22 PM roycroft: there is no email set up for the domain itself
01:23 PM roycroft: and the registrant and administrative contacts for the domain are an administrative email address that i get, and i got nothing
01:23 PM enleth: roycroft: ask him to forward that? I mean it, it's either a zero-day that should be investigated or it's not a reason to shitpost a good piece of technology
01:24 PM roycroft: based on the information that i have, surely you can understand my skepticism
01:25 PM roycroft: i'll ask him but he likely won't even respond
01:34 PM enleth: roycroft: based on the information that I have, it's option 2), as it would be exceedingly absurd and ridiculous for a service that was built by people known in the industry and endorsed by very security-conscious big players to do something like that
01:36 PM enleth: roycroft: so unless I have proof to the contrary, I now see someone posting disparaging comments about a valuable and praise-worthy initiative that greatly increases the overall security all across the web, most likely due to a misunderstanding of what was done and happened
01:41 PM roycroft: i asked my boss if he still had the email and he responded" "i don't think so. why?"
01:41 PM roycroft: and i explained it to him
01:41 PM roycroft: and i've not heard back
01:42 PM roycroft: i've explained here exactly what i know that caused me to form the impression i have
01:42 PM roycroft: if you don't like it that's too bad
01:42 PM roycroft: i'm not going to retract a word i've said
01:42 PM roycroft: and i've not changed my opinion of it
01:43 PM sync: how can someone not have an email
01:43 PM sync: it is 2018, who deletes emails?!
01:43 PM * roycroft raises his hand
01:43 PM roycroft: i delete at least hundreds of emails every single day
01:44 PM sync: why would you
01:45 PM roycroft: because i'm done with them and i do not want to incur the cost of repeatedly indexing them or storing them
01:45 PM gregcnc: has social media not taught you to be offended by everything you read?
01:45 PM roycroft: irc is the only social media i use :)
01:45 PM sync: storing emails costs virtually nothing
01:46 PM sync: it is not even worth the time to delete them
01:46 PM roycroft: says the person who does not have to pay for the hardware to store and the bandwidth to back it up
01:46 PM sync: I do
01:46 PM sync: and it is insignificant
01:46 PM roycroft: then you're pretty rich
01:47 PM enleth: roycroft: well, I don't expect you to retract a word about what you've *seen* happen, no reason to think you're lying or something - but you might not have seen everything and the big picture just doesn't make sense at all if that's not the case
01:47 PM roycroft: why would i keep bounce messages, nagios notifications, etc?
01:47 PM sync: because it takes time to delete them
01:47 PM roycroft: i already conceded that, enleth
01:47 PM enleth: roycroft: and I wouldn't say I "don't like it", if anything, it kind of makes me sad.
01:47 PM roycroft: no longer than to move them to another folder
01:47 PM sync: I sieve those into a folder and they stay there
01:48 PM roycroft: do you really expect me to sort through literally millions of messages in my inbox on a regular basis?
01:48 PM roycroft: and i delete them
01:48 PM roycroft: that takes no longer
01:48 PM roycroft: what is the purpose of saving crap like that?
01:48 PM roycroft: once it's been read it's garbage
01:48 PM Rab: Ever tried to find anything in tens of thousands of hoarded emails? I can't even grep my Maildir.
01:48 PM roycroft: i can't even believe that this is a discussion
01:48 PM sync: Rab: I do it every day
01:48 PM roycroft: are you just looking for things to argue about?
01:48 PM sync: no
01:49 PM roycroft: it sure seems like it
01:49 PM Rab: sync, how about some protips.
01:49 PM sync: it sure seems like you want to argue that LE is bad
01:49 PM gregcnc: then don't argue?
01:49 PM roycroft: i made a statement about it earlier
01:49 PM roycroft: i was confronted on it
01:49 PM roycroft: and since then i've tried to explain the circumstances that caused me to form the impression that i have about it
01:50 PM roycroft: i really have zero interest in it - i can buy certs that do what i expect them to do for next to nothing
01:50 PM roycroft: and i'm happy paying what i pay for them
01:51 PM * roycroft thinks it's time for lunch, and to let things cool off here a bit
01:51 PM enleth: roycroft: one last thing: you sure it wasn't issued by a CA with "Fake" in its name? that would be a test CA that I think has much lower verification requirements to, among others, allow for testing in non-public environments, but obviously isn't present in browser trust stores
01:51 PM roycroft: i don't know, enleth
01:51 PM enleth: well, what if it was?
01:51 PM roycroft: what i know is that a cert was issued and i was asked to replace it
01:51 PM enleth: then your whole statement about LE being bad is wrong.
01:51 PM sync: Rab: idk, I just type the stuff I'm looking for into thunderbirds search window and it works
01:52 PM sync: even on around 100G of mails
01:52 PM enleth: and people here might have made a decision based on that.
01:52 PM roycroft: if that is the case then it could be wrong, enleth
01:52 PM roycroft: but i really, honestly, do not care
01:52 PM roycroft: so i'll say this before i go for lunch
01:53 PM roycroft: based on my personal experience, i do not consider le certificates to be useful
01:53 PM enleth: at least some people still do, that's why we still can have nice things.
01:53 PM roycroft: but my experience is very limited, and i encourage others to research for themselves whether they would trust them or not
01:53 PM Rab: sync, I have a couple of accounts set up in Thunderbird with archives going back to 2009, and I think its search is godawful...but I note your good experience.
01:53 PM roycroft: and not base their decisions on my anecdotal report
01:53 PM roycroft: does that satisfy you?
01:54 PM enleth: well now you do, at first you didn't
01:54 PM enleth: the statement was pretty clear - "don't use, it's bad"
01:54 PM roycroft: and i'll pledge not to engage in conversation about them here in future
01:54 PM roycroft: so now you have an issue with my redacting that statement?
01:55 PM sync: Rab: yeah, with low IO performance it is no fun
01:55 PM enleth: no, I'd just like to point it out and ask you to be more considerate in making definitive statements in the future. yes, I do make those too sometimes, we all do, but it's good to try not to.
01:55 PM * roycroft guesses he is in a lose-lose situation here, and decides to go to lunch, and will engage his time after lunch being an even bigger loser by deleting junk emails
01:56 PM Rab: sync, I'm patient; it's more the relevance and organization of results.
01:56 PM enleth: anyway, have a pleasant lunch break
01:56 PM sync: I mostly know pretty well what I want, so it works out ok for me
01:56 PM sync: but I can see that this could be an issue
01:57 PM sync: putting the maildir on an nvme ssd helped a lot
02:02 PM Tom_shop: ok i got the pendant fixed at least
02:02 PM Tom_shop: was a dead gpio pin on the fpga
02:03 PM Tom_shop: but of course i started tracking it at the far end of the chain
02:04 PM enleth: roycroft: oh, and speaking of trying not to do that - I'm sorry for calling what you said bullshit at the beginning of the conversation, that's not a terribly good way to reach an understanding
02:08 PM miss0r: Its a good feeling to close the accounting books of 2017, and have the accounts line up exactly right :]
02:09 PM Tom_shop: makes me kinda suspicious
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/hvo/d/ycm-miller-cnc-mills/6453377056.html (4 available) $1k ea
02:13 PM Tom_shop: that table looks longer than a bp
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: are they CT40?
02:14 PM Tom_shop: no idea
02:15 PM Tom_shop: ok break time. pendant is fixed
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.istonline.ca/download/supermax-ycm-40.pdf the manual for ^^
02:17 PM gregcnc: was about to post that
02:19 PM mozmck: probably good thing it's 900 miles from me
02:21 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/bfs/d/industrial-components/6449760440.html I wonder what their used prices look like
02:22 PM enleth: ugh, looks like a manual mill retrofit, factory made but still a retrofit
02:22 PM enleth: this X motor sticking out half a mile to the side
02:24 PM gregcnc: enleth hard to find a VMC for under 5kUSD
02:24 PM CaptHindsight: https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bfs/d/cnc-okuma-lr15-4-axis-machine/6438672844.html
02:24 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, we have a place like that here that sells used industrial controls and hardware. Their prices are significantly cheaper than new; significantly higher than eBay etc (although they advertise on both eBay and craigslist).
02:24 PM CaptHindsight: 4 axis lathe and feeder $2500 or best
02:25 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: yeah, unless you are looking for something specific used and it's not on ebay
02:25 PM enleth: gregcnc: Bridgeport did a couple CNC models that were not retrofits, they're relatively easy to come by and much better suited to upgrades IMO
02:26 PM enleth: gregcnc: I suppose some makers of BP clones might have done the same
02:26 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, http://www.dougdeals.com/
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bfs/d/cnc-plasma-table-press-brake/6454465604.html you remove 2000?
02:29 PM gregcnc: 8.5 tons of lathe 700USD https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/hvo/d/smt-pullmax-cnc-lathe-attn/6394257379.html
02:29 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, I think that might be noting the date.
02:31 PM enleth: gregcnc: huh, isn't that below scrap value for the iron?
02:31 PM gregcnc: who knows what the story/scam is
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: must use our rigger, special deal $8k to load your truck
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: is Doug Deal near you? I used them on ebay
02:33 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, yep, 30 min drive.
02:35 PM Rab: Seemed like decent people, they were happy to show me around and let me browse the warehouse. Everything was clean and neatly organized. I think that factors into the pricing: knowing exactly what you're going to get.
02:36 PM Rab: "IF you would like to know more individual capabilities or would like to make a serious offer please shoot me a message"
02:36 PM Rab: That suggests they will take less than $700, as long as it's serious.
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: I think that it's too heavy for any tilt bed
02:38 PM Rab: "Don't come sniffing around here kicking tires and demanding that I pay you to take this lathe, positive-figure offers only"
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: I wonder how much I could get for a Bridgeport mounted in a similar enclosure? https://madison.craigslist.org/for/d/taig-cnc-mini-milling-machine/6414838993.html
02:54 PM CaptHindsight: been on CL too long? "NO emails Done with TEXTING... will not answer any more. will delete any and all that come through. scammers get a life NO I will NOT take a check"
02:58 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: do they buy whole machines and tear them down or do they just buy at auctions and resell?
03:00 PM roycroft: cl people can be funny
03:00 PM roycroft: so many of them are so paranoid about email, and absolutely refusing to have anything to do with it because of "scammers"
03:01 PM roycroft: so they insist on giving out their phone number
03:01 PM roycroft: me, i guard my phone number jealously
03:01 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, I don't know their source. I'm guessing bankruptcy auctions. There's a lot of lab and test equipment too. We have some pretty serious engineering, semiconductor fab, and startup-scale manufacturing here...no big-time manufacturing.
03:01 PM roycroft: but i can make up a throw-away email address at the drop of a hat
03:01 PM roycroft: and throw it away just as fast
03:02 PM roycroft: i guess it's all a matter of perspective
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: 55F and down to 14F by tonight
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: have to get out before the cold returns
03:02 PM roycroft: a throw-away phone number takes me 15 minutes to set up and costs me $3.50
03:03 PM roycroft: a throw away email address takes me 2 minutes to set up and costs me nothing but the two minutes
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: CL blocks your email address anyway
03:16 PM roycroft: yeah, it does things via proxy these days
03:16 PM roycroft: that was not always the case
03:17 PM roycroft: probably why i haven't had to throw away my throw-away cl email address for quite a while now
03:17 PM roycroft: the spammers don't bother as much when they don't have your real address
03:24 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight sounds like you're gonna get a dose of our weather
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: heh, it's sitting just a few miles west
03:26 PM Tom_L: it dropped probably 20 deg from when i got up til an hour later
03:26 PM Tom_L: turned from rain to a nice skating rink
03:27 PM CaptHindsight: the front is actually right on top of us now
03:27 PM methods_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF7pmfA_7ig
03:27 PM methods_: like that poor guy
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: I would have skated down but concerned about the cars at the bottom
03:29 PM CaptHindsight: and if you get to the truck, whats keeping it from doing the same?
03:30 PM Tom_L: not sure that crossed his mind
03:31 PM Tom_L: had one bounce off the center wall into the outside guard rail in front of me this AM
03:31 PM roycroft: we had a bit of rain earlier, but it's stopped
03:31 PM roycroft: the sun is actually trying to peek through the clouds
03:31 PM XXCoder: another company did bonus then lay off thousands.
03:31 PM XXCoder: walmart this time
03:31 PM Tom_L: sporty BMW drivers that well.... " i got this " attitude
03:32 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: but we gave them raises
03:32 PM XXCoder: huh? there was no minium wage increase
03:33 PM roycroft: it's a ruse
03:33 PM roycroft: big corporations are giving employees small increases in pay, "thanks" to the corporate tax cuts
03:33 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/taxes-lower-employment-higher-walmart-announces-raises-bonuses-n836801
03:33 PM roycroft: and yes, this one time, when it's politically necessary, they are passing along some of their savings to their workers
03:34 PM roycroft: but they won't do it again
03:34 PM methods_: https://qz.com/1176993/scientists-discovered-huge-ice-sheets-on-mars-some-a-football-field-thick/
03:34 PM roycroft: the bonuses are a bigger ruse
03:34 PM roycroft: as they're not recurring
03:34 PM XXCoder: yeah other one gave $1000 bonus to everyone, then fired a lot of em
03:35 PM Tom_L: sdp was on the ball this time. my belt is on it's way
03:35 PM XXCoder: $1000 sounds a lot but then realzie its less than $3 a day
03:35 PM roycroft: all the corporations are doing is trying to ensure that when the democrats control the congress again they won't be abel to raise taxes on corporations again
03:36 PM roycroft: $1000 sounds like a lot until you compare it with your ceo saving $18 million/year in taxes
03:36 PM XXCoder: yep
03:37 PM CaptHindsight: well most people will never understand or care if you try to explain
03:37 PM CaptHindsight: dumb people are easier to control
03:37 PM roycroft: it's pretty funny, though, how the part of the tax law that punishes blue states is blowing up in the republicans' faces already
03:37 PM CaptHindsight: so keep dumbing them down
03:37 PM XXCoder: yeah im tired of school cuts
03:38 PM roycroft: the feds have nothing to do with that, directly
03:38 PM XXCoder: roy yeah? theres so much crap in that taxsteal, what specifically you are talking about?
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: The Chinese are now buying as much stuff as Americans, a game-changer for the world economy
03:38 PM roycroft: the salt deduction limits, xxcoder
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: this should get more interesting
03:38 PM roycroft: california has the most novel approache
03:39 PM roycroft: they're working on legislation that would allow one to make a "donation" to the state in the amount that one's state income tax would be
03:39 PM roycroft: that "donation" is still deducatable on one's federal taxes without limit
03:39 PM XXCoder: hind yeah. china seems to be next superpower. funny thing is that they are realizing pollution is bad is are working on it now.
03:39 PM roycroft: but the state income tax deduction is limited to $10k
03:39 PM XXCoder: thats why solar biz is booming there, and we benefit from it a bit
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/chinese-workers-abandon-silicon-valley-for-riches-back-home
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: ^^ how we got funded there
03:40 PM XXCoder: we should start learning chinese
03:40 PM roycroft: of course, one's "donation" to the state of california would offset one's state income tax liability on a dollar to dollar basis
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: at the same time they are tightening up the great firewall of China
03:41 PM XXCoder: not surpised as they are quite isular
03:41 PM roycroft: republicans were saying "if you live in a blue state with high state taxes, get your state to lower its taxes or move to a red state"
03:41 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: so most there really don't know what goes on outside their borders
03:41 PM XXCoder: roycroft: interesting
03:41 PM XXCoder: not as bad as north korea
03:41 PM roycroft: like silicon valley is going to move to mississippi
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: our gubernatorial race has just started
03:42 PM roycroft: anyway, high income, high tax states will be fine
03:42 PM XXCoder: so, donate up to $10k to state, duction of state taxes, but also can duction from federal tax?
03:42 PM roycroft: yes
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: lots of humorous adds takin swipes at the current Rep guberner
03:42 PM XXCoder: double dipping interesting
03:42 PM roycroft: that's exactly how california is structuring it
03:43 PM roycroft: there's a difference though
03:43 PM roycroft: you don't get to deduct the entire amount you pay in state taxes from your federal taxes
03:43 PM roycroft: you just adjust your taxable income
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: most people don't seem to mind, look how they vote
03:44 PM roycroft: i.e. if you pay $5k in state taxes, you don't get to pay the feds $5k less
03:44 PM roycroft: you just pay taxes on $5k less
03:44 PM roycroft: but at the state level, it's dollar for dollar
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: they don't mind the taxes, losing rights or being abused
03:44 PM roycroft: if you donate $5k to the state, your state taxes go down by $5k
03:44 PM XXCoder: ahh more clear. thanks
03:44 PM roycroft: so it's a wash at the state level
03:45 PM XXCoder: so basically federal tax taxes on say $30,000 income, becomes $20,000 if donate max 10k
03:45 PM roycroft: yes
03:45 PM XXCoder: so taxes is lessened according
03:45 PM roycroft: which is how it is now
03:45 PM roycroft: yes
03:46 PM roycroft: it's maintaining how it worked in 2017
03:46 PM roycroft: but the new tax law changes that with the limits on state and local tax deductions
03:47 PM roycroft: if you pay $18k in state income tax, you can now only deduct $10k of that on your federal taxes
03:47 PM roycroft: and you have to pay federal tax on the remaining $8k
03:47 PM roycroft: that is how it punishes blue states
03:47 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: the little people will adapt
03:48 PM roycroft: blue states 1. have a higher median income than red states, and 2. rely more on progressive taxes like income tax vs. regressive taxes like sales tax than red states
03:48 PM XXCoder: that includes basically all of us
03:48 PM XXCoder: roy wa is one of states that have most repressive tax for liberal state lol
03:48 PM roycroft: it was written very specifically to increase the tax burden on blue states, which already pay more to the feds than tye get back from the feds
03:48 PM roycroft: that's one reason i moved out of washington
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: how do you get 100 million of like minded thinkers to change any of this?
03:49 PM XXCoder: so the donation thing. interesting
03:49 PM roycroft: the result of all of this that the feds will receive ~$350 to $500 billion less in income tax revenue
03:50 PM roycroft: adding to the already $1.3 to $1.5 trillion increase in the debt that the new tax law will cost our children
03:50 PM gloops: everything was alright in this country till we joined the common market
03:50 PM gloops: thats when it all started to go wrong
03:51 PM roycroft: yeah, some other states are talking about shifting their taxes around so that they bring in the same amount of money, but ensure that their citizens are not penalized by the salt deduction limits
03:51 PM roycroft: california's approach is, so far, unique
03:51 PM roycroft: and it's simple and elegant
03:52 PM roycroft: and i bet this is exactly how it will work:
03:52 PM roycroft: when you fill out your state income tax form, and you get to the line that used to say "total tax owed", that line will say "total tax liability"
03:52 PM roycroft: then the next line will say "amount donated to the state of california"
03:53 PM roycroft: and the next line will say "total tax owed", with instructions to subtract the donation from the total liability
03:53 PM XXCoder: probably
03:53 PM roycroft: so add two lines to the form
03:53 PM roycroft: make sure the last line is 0
03:53 PM roycroft: and bob's your uncle
03:53 PM Tom_L: and here i though sam was
03:54 PM XXCoder: that should be between statements ;)
03:56 PM XXCoder: well
03:56 PM XXCoder: we certainly live in interesting times
03:56 PM gloops: i think the UK has similar problems to america though, we have forces in control that are only paying lip service to the voters decision
03:56 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: here they do the job they were paid for
03:56 PM gloops: this is not the brexit we wanted, and Trump is not the america first man america voted for
03:57 PM XXCoder: I don't think GOP does even bother to do lip service for
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: except they see to be having difficulty repealing the last health care law
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: see/seem
03:57 PM XXCoder: yeah barely blocked each time
03:58 PM XXCoder: way they passed tax scam certainly wasn't like that. they had hours to read ream. 2 hours.
03:58 PM XXCoder: nobody read it, and it had handwritten stuff on it
03:58 PM XXCoder: just thankful we didnt give half of country to china
03:58 PM roycroft: the only argument now is whether it's theresa may and her tories or donald trump and the republicans who are more inept and out of touch with their citizens
03:59 PM XXCoder: did you guys read fury and fire?
03:59 PM roycroft: no
03:59 PM roycroft: and i'm not sure if i'm going to
03:59 PM gloops: theresa may has always been a player, shes only looking after herself
03:59 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: don't exclude the dems from being out of touch
03:59 PM XXCoder: its mendering and mess of a book, but it really shows the stuff behind the news and stuff
03:59 PM CaptHindsight: corruption all the way around
04:00 PM roycroft: capthingsight: when they're in power i'm critical of them as well
04:00 PM roycroft: even when they're not
04:00 PM gloops: mixed signals, saying one thing and doing another
04:00 PM roycroft: they pale in comparison to the republicans though
04:00 PM XXCoder: yeah
04:00 PM roycroft: whenever i tell my friends that both of our major parties are essentially the same there is a huge uproar
04:01 PM roycroft: i do clarify that there's a significant difference in degree
04:01 PM roycroft: but neither party are looking out for americans
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: gerrymandering at least became a topic, it's been in progress for years
04:01 PM roycroft: they're both funded by wall treet
04:01 PM roycroft: street
04:01 PM roycroft: and that's who they both listen to
04:01 PM XXCoder: roy democrats in least try to work goverment to some of benefit
04:01 PM XXCoder: gop is walking middle fingers to rest of humanity in usa
04:02 PM roycroft: for the most part, yes
04:02 PM roycroft: don't get me wrong
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: the election rules didn't end up like they are on accident
04:02 PM roycroft: i'd rather have the democrats running the country than the republicans any time
04:02 PM roycroft: but i'd prefer neither of them
04:02 PM XXCoder: but democrats dont walk on flowers either heh
04:03 PM roycroft: and one other way that both parties are exactly the same
04:03 PM roycroft: when they lose an election, neither party is able to pull its collective head out of its collective arse and figure out what went wrong and why it lost
04:03 PM roycroft: they just play the blame game
04:04 PM roycroft: i'm so sick of clinton and her "it was comey" "it was the russians" bullshit
04:04 PM roycroft: she was a weak candidate who should never have been on the ticket
04:04 PM roycroft: and she ran a horrible campaign
04:04 PM XXCoder: yeah. so many assumed she would win. you saw the statue of trump?
04:04 PM roycroft: and until she and the democrats face that reality i have no use for them
04:05 PM XXCoder: its pretty olvously clinton, remade
04:05 PM XXCoder: and fairly badly remade even
04:06 PM gloops: same old
04:06 PM XXCoder: same old? no.
04:06 PM gloops: clinton represents the same old crap
04:06 PM gloops: people are sick of it
04:06 PM XXCoder: better old crap than dumpseter fire
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: many people didn't see it that way
04:07 PM XXCoder: old crap is WAY better.
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: they felt that they were already living in the dumpster so let it burn
04:07 PM XXCoder: yeah. too bad really.
04:07 PM gloops: theyve been peddling the same bull for 30 years and things just get steadily worse
04:08 PM XXCoder: "None as blind as one who refuse to see, none as deaf as one who refuse to hear"
04:08 PM XXCoder: person who refuse to hear is more deaf than I am.
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: England didn't go through a civil war after slavery was abolished...
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: how did the nation adjust to race back then?
04:10 PM gloops: there were no racial problems here until they let the immigrants in
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: so not until the past few dacdes?
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: decades even
04:10 PM gloops: right
04:10 PM XXCoder: it means either people use race as excuse, or the racism problem was hiding in woodwork
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: it's been hiding on ours
04:11 PM XXCoder: yeah
04:11 PM gloops: it isnt a question of race, its culture, certain cultures are incompatible with western values
04:11 PM XXCoder: bought out by black president reallt
04:11 PM XXCoder: dont matter that he was one of better ones
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: like the French? :)
04:12 PM gloops: im not sure french culture even exists anymore
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: yes, how do you integrate a culture that has such different values?
04:12 PM XXCoder: living culture changes
04:12 PM gloops: Capt you dont, you keep them seperate
04:13 PM CaptHindsight: women, children, their invisible man in the sky etc
04:13 PM roycroft: yes, it's all about "western values" in the uk
04:13 PM roycroft: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/no-polish-allowed-protest-over-ban-eastern-europeans-fishing-oxfordshire-lake-1652333
04:13 PM XXCoder: it's pretty amazing that guy in sky always agrees with speaker.
04:14 PM roycroft: all those brown poles are ruining the country
04:14 PM gloops: yes it has come to that roycroft
04:14 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: well he's an angry, childish, jealous guy as well
04:14 PM XXCoder: typically yeah
04:14 PM gloops: that fishery owner stocks his lakes, fish cost money, anglers pay good money to fish
04:14 PM gloops: its his livelihood
04:14 PM gloops: the poles ate the fish
04:15 PM XXCoder: heyy trump may be guy in sky - enbodied
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: kills babies for their parents mistakes
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: is that why Germany invaded there? (runs and ducks)
04:16 PM gloops: despite the grave warnings they have nurtured the viper in our midst
04:16 PM roycroft: becasue all polish people go to his farm and steal his fish
04:16 PM XXCoder: gonna go to work, run cell some more wheee
04:16 PM roycroft: that sign is a textbook definition of prejudice
04:17 PM XXCoder: hopefully no damn power issues like yeserday
04:17 PM gloops: roycroft poles eat carp for xmas dinner
04:17 PM XXCoder: roycroft: "no dogs and jews"
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: "no dogs and (insert hated race here)"
04:18 PM XXCoder: it'll be pretty long time before we solve racism.
04:18 PM gloops: nothing to do with race hatred, they simply will not accept the rules
04:18 PM XXCoder: laters
04:18 PM gloops: they are not in poland, they are in the UK
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: women having to wear bee keeper suits?
04:19 PM gloops: Capt not sure what thats about?
04:19 PM CaptHindsight: http://i.dawn.com/primary/2014/04/5358f5a683693.jpg?r=179869627
04:19 PM roycroft: punishing an entire class of people based on the behavior of a few is prejudice, and if that class is a race, racist
04:20 PM gloops: roy its polish culture, it isnt the state that put the sign up its an individual
04:20 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: heard it was those bomb vest wearing countries
04:20 PM gloops: Capt that should be banned
04:21 PM roycroft: if you can prove that every single pole and eastern block person in the uk steals fish from that person then i'll accept that the sign is not prejudicial
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: have a link to the sign or story?
04:21 PM roycroft: and i'm well aware that it's an individual
04:21 PM roycroft: the government could not erect such a sign
04:22 PM roycroft: post-brexit it could, but it wouldn't
04:22 PM gregcnc: a guy stocks ponds and lets the public fish there implying that it's for sport only?
04:22 PM roycroft: gregcnc: the custom in the uk is catch and release
04:22 PM roycroft: the custom in poland is catch and eat
04:22 PM roycroft: i totally get that
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: this? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/18/fishery-could-face-legal-action-for-sign-banning-eastern-european-anglers]
04:22 PM gloops: roycroft we can only entertain political correctness to a point, it is eastern europeans who are stealing the fish, hes tried all possible PC avenues to stop it, and it didnt work
04:22 PM gregcnc: custom or law?
04:22 PM roycroft: that does not make the sign not prejudicial though
04:23 PM gloops: its his lake, he makes the rules
04:23 PM roycroft: the pond is on private property, so it would be policy there
04:23 PM Rab: What is the business model of the fishery? Charging sport fishers for access?
04:23 PM roycroft: and if someone violates the policy the person could be asked to leave, and charged with trespass or theft
04:24 PM gloops: yes you pay to fish, its for sport only, he stocked it with specimen fish, not inexpensive
04:24 PM roycroft: i do not question that the owner was wronged
04:24 PM roycroft: see, you're confusing americans
04:24 PM roycroft: when you say "it's for sport only"
04:24 PM Deejay: gn8
04:24 PM roycroft: to you that means catch and release
04:24 PM roycroft: to us that doesn't really mean anything
04:24 PM gloops: right
04:25 PM gregcnc: sure it does
04:25 PM gregcnc: sport fishing is catch and release
04:25 PM roycroft: if anything, we're more inclined to consider "for sport only" to mean "you can't resell them"
04:25 PM gloops: many rivers and lakes have been completely emptied of fish
04:25 PM roycroft: yes
04:25 PM roycroft: so arrest the people who are the violators
04:25 PM roycroft: do not ban an entire class of people because of the actions of some
04:25 PM gloops: difficult
04:26 PM gloops: we know it isnt the english, theyve never done it, they dont eat those kind of fish
04:26 PM gloops: its always eastern europeans
04:26 PM roycroft: no english person has ever done that?
04:26 PM gregcnc: we have people here fishing without licenses too
04:26 PM gloops: not in recent history no, those fish are only eaten by peasants
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: first of all what you think that they can read? (mother was born in Poland so I can make these jokes)
04:27 PM roycroft: there are no english peasants?
04:27 PM gloops: no this hasnt been a peasant nation for a long long time
04:27 PM gregcnc: so is the property open to anyone?
04:27 PM gloops: romania, bulgaria various eastern europe nations are still culturally peasant nations
04:28 PM roycroft: so you have no simple laborers who make minimum wage in the uk?
04:28 PM roycroft: and no vagrants?
04:28 PM roycroft: who are of english blood, that is
04:28 PM roycroft: or even british blood
04:28 PM gloops: gregcnc usually you go to the lake, set up, start fishing and someone comes round to collect the fee or check your booking or whatever
04:28 PM roycroft: i don't know if it's just the english who are all hoity-toity or if it's all brits
04:28 PM roycroft: i'm not understanding where you draw the line
04:29 PM gregcnc: odd business model
04:29 PM roycroft: but if you're claiming that there is not a single english person who is just scraping by, eeking out a living, i respectfully suggest you are mistaken
04:29 PM gloops: im not saying anything against peasants, what im saying is culturally they tend to scratch a living off the land, they eat rabbits and coarse fish, catch minnows, milk ants all that kind of stuff
04:29 PM roycroft: every country in the world has peasants
04:29 PM gloops: brits dont do that anymore
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/racist-messages-appear-near-school-telling-poles-to-go-home-following-brexit-5967257/
04:30 PM roycroft: and i guarantee there are still some people doing that
04:30 PM gloops: they still have dancing bears in bulgaria
04:30 PM roycroft: some british people doing that
04:30 PM roycroft: to think that the brits are above that and it's only eastern europeans who still do it is, well, i can't come up with a polite term so i'll just not try
04:31 PM Rab: Ironically I've heard similar primitive arguments made by Hungarians against the Roma, but neither appear to be welcome at Field Farm Fishers.
04:31 PM gloops: im not saying either culture is superior or either people
04:31 PM gloops: Rab the roma have been despised accross europe for a long time
04:31 PM roycroft: "brits don't do that any more" is about as smugly superior as one cay be
04:31 PM roycroft: can
04:31 PM gloops: not my own sentiments btw
04:32 PM gloops: my postal town has the highest number of roma immigrants in the north
04:32 PM gloops: seriously, you probably wouldnt be making these arguments if you saw it with your own eyes
04:33 PM gregcnc: but what difference does it make where they are from?
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: heard an interesting interview from a former white supremacist leader/skinhead
04:33 PM gloops: the 'roma' arent from anywhere in particular, theyre gypsies
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: how they re-branded themselves and decided to just fit in on the surface
04:34 PM roycroft: i'm not unsympathetic to the problems, gloops
04:35 PM roycroft: but you're sounding exactly like the folks in my country who rant about "illegals" all the time
04:35 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: who stands to benefit from the racists there?
04:35 PM roycroft: it's not only racist, it does nothing to address the problems
04:35 PM gloops: Capt there is some racism, some hatred here, it isnt common i dont think
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: in other news: “Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?” the president reportedly asked lawmakers.
04:36 PM gloops: the vast swell of opinion against immigration is based on the shocking rate it has occured, entire communities being displaced, overwhelming of public services, wage compression, cultural tensions
04:37 PM gloops: it isnt about 'we hate black people, we are superior'
04:37 PM roycroft: you mean like half scots/half germans who marry slovenian immigrants?
04:38 PM roycroft: i do get that, gloops
04:38 PM gloops: scots and germans are the same people
04:38 PM roycroft: i'm probably more aware of the issues that the english are dealing with than you think
04:39 PM roycroft: i'm not a typical american who has zero awareness of the world outside our national borders
04:39 PM gloops: a german comes here, he lives the same, wears the same clothes, does the same jobs, eats and drinks the same etc
04:39 PM gloops: nobody notices
04:40 PM roycroft: i was referring to our president above :)
04:40 PM gloops: ahh
04:40 PM roycroft: the very type of immigration he wants to ban is what permitted his family to get into the us
04:41 PM roycroft: and what allowed his current wife to remain here after she violated her visa
04:41 PM roycroft: it's "i'm here, so close the door now"
04:41 PM gloops: the immigration he said he was going to ban
04:44 PM roycroft: and i would say that, generally, people in this country who are anti-immigrant are more racially- and prejudicially-motivated than brexiteers who want immigration reform
04:44 PM gloops: https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/443677/A-multicultural-hell-hole-that-we-never-voted-for
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: thats only because what other wife could he have purchased as his age?
04:44 PM roycroft: but it is undeniable that some of the pro-brexit voters did so for racist reasons
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.newsweek.com/trump-immigrants-shithole-countries-daca-778928
04:45 PM roycroft: we should really talk more about making pieces of metal smaller and putting hols in the metal and stuff though
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: you can't this stuff up
04:46 PM gloops: in their attempts to show their policies as a success, the pro immigration parties start giving the newcomers a bit of help, extra welfare, housing and education opportunities, handouts, preferences for this and that
04:46 PM gloops: that is quickly interpreted by brits as - theyre better off than we are
04:48 PM roycroft: i'm not sure that i could be considered "pro immigration"
04:48 PM roycroft: that is
04:49 PM gloops: vividly illustrated last week by this paper's reports of two attempts by Roma immigrants to make money from the sale of babies. In one, Colin Barton, the owner of a chip shop, said that he was approached by a teenager who offered him a new-born child for £250.
04:50 PM gloops: £250 for a baby is stupidly high anyway
04:51 PM roycroft: i do not think that the us should actively encourage people to move here
04:51 PM roycroft: but for those who want to, if they can demonstrate that they would be an asset to this country, we should have a mechanism for them to immigrate
04:51 PM roycroft: and as a compassionate people, we should take in refugees from other countries as the need warrants
04:51 PM CaptHindsight: has anyone ever seen a polymer tube that can hold its weight in water filled with 1L/1 quart?
04:51 PM roycroft: in my mind that does not make me 'pro immigration', just a decent person
04:51 PM CaptHindsight: has to be long and thin like an intestine
04:51 PM CaptHindsight: https://pxhere.com/en/photo/674285 balloons are not durable enough
04:52 PM CaptHindsight: should be by weight
04:53 PM Contract_Pilot: According to Planar these CCFL's are worn out...WTF refirbished My But.
04:53 PM gloops: hard cheese Contract_Pilot
04:54 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, bicycle innner tube? I've used them as air bladders. The thorn-proof ones offer extra durability.
04:54 PM roycroft: the trump quote has hit the mainstream media
04:54 PM roycroft: it's making headlines all over the place now
04:55 PM roycroft: his base are going to vote for him twice as hard now!
04:55 PM roycroft: and he's just finished alienating everyone else in the country
04:55 PM Contract_Pilot: What Quote Roycroft
04:55 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, I've also filled a synthetic-material condom will water until it held over a gallon. Not sure what your criterion is for durability, but those are designed to withstand more abuse than balloons.
04:56 PM roycroft: trump said that we need to quit letting people from "shithole" countries like african countries into the united states, and bring in more people like norwegians
04:57 PM Contract_Pilot: Nord's hahaha
04:58 PM roycroft: he specifically listed haiti, el salvador, and african countries a the "shithole" countries
04:58 PM Contract_Pilot: Yea, ben to a lot fo them myself
04:58 PM gloops: lol
04:58 PM Contract_Pilot: Scariest Place On Earth was Angola!
04:59 PM gloops: you should try sheffield Contract
04:59 PM gloops: we've got taliban, isis, somalian pirates, cut-throat gypsies you name it
04:59 PM phipli: Coventry can be interesting...
05:00 PM phipli: had some of the weirdest heckles there...
05:00 PM JT-Shop: hey phipli
05:01 PM phipli: Evening JT
05:01 PM phipli: How goes
05:01 PM phipli: ?
05:02 PM JT-Shop: Henry is still hiding in the woods but comes out for his food and treats
05:02 PM JT-Shop: got 5 eggs today
05:02 PM phipli: They say the way to a man's heart is through his stomach
05:03 PM phipli: Only three for us today
05:03 PM JT-Shop: yea, we will make some deviled eggs and boil some this weekend... still 40g-46g
05:04 PM phipli: Our birds' eggs haven't really got bigger (if anything after the first year they shrunk a little)
05:04 PM phipli: that size might be the size for the breed?
05:04 PM JT-Shop: looks like another round of arctic air going to hit us
05:05 PM phipli: we just sometimes get a huge one when it is a double yoker
05:05 PM JT-Shop: no, they should lay extra large like 60g
05:05 PM phipli: that's a big egg to be fair
05:05 PM phipli: our scales aren't great, but the duck egg sized one we had was only 75g or so
05:06 PM JT-Shop: duck eggs are larger than chickens?
05:06 PM phipli: nah. the missus says I probably weighed it wrong
05:06 PM JT-Shop: lol
05:06 PM phipli: never mind :)
05:06 PM phipli: JT - yeah, duck eggs are bigger
05:06 PM phipli: or at least, the ones we used to sometimes get
05:07 PM JT-Shop: dumb pullets all want on the same roost
05:07 PM phipli: https://thefreerangelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/duck-eggs-vs-chicken-eggs.jpg
05:08 PM phipli: https://i1.wp.com/morningchores.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Comparing-Duck-Eggs-and-Other-Eggs.png?resize=672%2C432
05:09 PM JT-Shop: 50g is a medium egg over here
05:10 PM gloops: different sizes of duck eggs, same as chickens, big ducks lay big eggs etc lol
05:10 PM JT-Shop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_egg_sizes
05:11 PM * JT-Shop goes to pick up Henry's food bowl... getting dark
05:12 PM Rab: Duck eggs are fantastic. Fried in butter, one is a morning's meal. They're also supposed to have >3x the cholesterol of chicken eggs. ;)
05:13 PM Contract_Pilot: Been to Afghanistan, Coventry England also..
05:14 PM phipli: Its changed a lot since I left
05:14 PM phipli: rebuilt most of between the train station and town
05:15 PM phipli: pedestrian underpasses are gone. as are the roads they went under.
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: this has to be longer and thinner maybe 5mm dia x 5m length
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: so long tube vs bag
05:23 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, clear heatshrink tubing?
05:24 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: no need for shrink
05:24 PM CaptHindsight: maybe 25um wall LDPE
05:25 PM CaptHindsight: plastic bag thickness
05:26 PM gloops: well, i think garage fever is setting in
05:27 PM gloops: must be finished this weekend or ill go totally crazy
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: cold and raining turning to RFcold and ice
05:31 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, with that wall thickness, and able to contain/support 1 kg along its length? I dunno. You could try drawing it from e.g. a plastic soda bottle, or heat-sealing mylar film around a metal rod.
05:32 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: will probably support it wound around a cylinder or cone
05:33 PM CaptHindsight: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzAwWDMwMA==/z/dFgAAOSwEK9UACbT/$_35.JPG
05:38 PM gloops: sht i was watching something on ebay
05:43 PM gloops: also informed woman selling a wood lathe as 'no idea what this is' of the name of the lathe and its approx value, currently selling at 10% of said value, so she thanked me for messaging her and didnt change the description
05:45 PM SpeedEvil: hah
07:19 PM Crom: range extenders installed
07:19 PM Crom: 2 vesa wall mount arms arrived, 22" touch screen arrived
09:55 PM Crom: nice, II haven't fallen off yet... range extenders seem to be working
10:34 PM Cromaglious_: https://ibb.co/foJ0xR rpi3 w 5" touch screen
10:54 PM roycroft: i got my incra jig mounts finished today
10:54 PM roycroft: the jig is mounted to the router table right now
10:54 PM roycroft: i am making progress
10:54 PM roycroft: poco a poco
11:47 PM Crom: my paulCNC kit for the 33686 shipped today, still waiting for the cncfusion kit for the 44991 to ship