#linuxcnc Logs

Dec 30 2017

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:00 AM XXCoder: we are adding sump pump system
12:02 AM XXCoder: so water cant enter again, unless we have prolonged blackout in rain
12:02 AM XXCoder: think theres also floor coating in that case
12:03 AM XXCoder: anyway think we plan to do hardfloor, because rug sucks
12:04 AM XXCoder: bit ironic it was ruined less than year after its installation.
12:14 AM Crom: yeah, I need to save up to redo all the floors in the house, get rid of the rest of the carpet, doing the master bath right now with marble I've had laying around for the last 10 years
12:15 AM XXCoder: nice
12:16 AM XXCoder: I'd l;eave rooms carpeted, for people that dont like cold floor when they wake up lol
12:16 AM XXCoder: myself, I walk barefoot all time, even outside, unless its to go into store or something
12:22 AM Crom: I prefer wood or tile floors, got slippers if the floor is cold
12:23 AM XXCoder: I walk barefoot on snow also, though short trips say get mail or something
12:23 AM XXCoder: so inside house it cant be too cold for me :)
12:28 AM Crom: Just had all new A/C and heating put in, new air handler, new ducts, new registers, new compressor. Also had all new double glased LowE windows put in as well
12:29 AM XXCoder: oh yea odd thing about my room, it has modern double glass windows
12:29 AM XXCoder: but it drafts cold air in
12:29 AM XXCoder: rest of house it dont seem to be problem
12:30 AM Crom: Used the Hero program for $23,000 in improvements. A/C, windows, patio cover
12:31 AM Crom: oh and $2200 fireplace doors
12:31 AM XXCoder: whoever last owner was, they did decent job modernizing this house. few issues though, microwave keeps popping breaker, upstairs bathtub leaks water, and basement leaks water
12:32 AM Crom: Microwave have 12ga wire feeding it?
12:32 AM Crom: Mine has a 20amp breaker
12:33 AM XXCoder: no idea, need to check if gauge is large enough for upgrade to 20amp. 10 amp now
12:33 AM XXCoder: microwave is 1000w
12:33 AM XXCoder: so 12 gauge is fine for 20amp?
12:33 AM roycroft: 12ga is code for 20a, unless it is derated
12:33 AM Crom: ouch...12ga is good for 25amp based on wire size or 20amp breaker
12:34 AM roycroft: 12ga nm or in conduit
12:34 AM Crom: 14ga should be outlawed... it's barely good enough for 15amps
12:34 AM roycroft: in a control panel 14ga is fine for 20a
12:35 AM Crom: wire is only good for 16amps not enough overhead for safety in my mind
12:35 AM Wolf__: 14ga rommel is ok for lights and rooms that should have no loads
12:35 AM Wolf__: romex
12:35 AM roycroft: the wire needs to handle the maximum load that the breaker will control
12:36 AM roycroft: regardless of anticipated load on the circuit
12:36 AM roycroft: what you're saying, i think, is that a 15a circuit is sufficient for lighting and low load rooms
12:36 AM Wolf__: pretty much
12:37 AM roycroft: you should never, ever attach 14ga wire to a 20a breaker
12:37 AM roycroft: except in a control panel, if the breaker is inside the panel
12:37 AM roycroft: and even then it depends on the panel layout
12:37 AM Crom: 15amp breaker is fine, I don't like 14ga with 15amps on it though
12:37 AM roycroft: i hope you're not an electrician
12:38 AM Crom: the wire is only good for 16amps... if the wire is deficiant in any way... :(
12:38 AM roycroft: because you would be poor if you were and you used 12ga wire for 15a circuits
12:38 AM Wolf__: ^
12:39 AM XXCoder: hope that guy who did stuff wasnt cutting costs
12:39 AM XXCoder: hope its 12ga or even better 10ga lol (doubt 10ga used much)
12:39 AM roycroft: if he did the ispector would have caught it and required rework
12:39 AM Crom: on my wiring, I only use 12awg or bigger and put in boxes for ceiling lights that support fans
12:40 AM roycroft: i use what is appropriate
12:40 AM Crom: to my mind 14awg is never appropiate
12:40 AM Wolf__: 12ga for 150w worth of led lighting
12:40 AM Wolf__: lmao
12:40 AM Wolf__: I would go broke wiring my house
12:40 AM Tom_L: 12ga wire is commonly used on 15A circuits here
12:41 AM roycroft: your "mind" disagrees with electrical engineers and virtuallly all, if not all, electrical codes
12:41 AM Tom_L: 14ga is allowed for overhead lighting circuits on a 15A breaker too
12:41 AM Tom_L: not for outlets though
12:41 AM roycroft: but there is really no simple answer to this
12:41 AM roycroft: the truth is that 16ga wire can handle 15a loads just fine
12:41 AM enleth: FWIW, over here we use 0.75mm^2 (18ga) for doorbells and in power cords for desk lamps, small radios, etc., 1mm^2 (17ga) for just about the same, 1.5mm^2 (15ga) for low power light circuits (like all ceiling fixtures in a small apartment, on a 10A breaker), 2.5mm^2 (13ga) for general purpose outlets in residences and offices (1-3 rooms, 16A breaker max), 4mm^2 (11ga) for local distribution (in panel,
12:42 AM enleth: between panels) and low power 3-phase devices (up to 20-25A), 6mm^2 (between 9 and 10ga) for local distribution (ditto) and higer power 3-phase devices (32A)
12:42 AM roycroft: however, the instant you put the wire in a duct or a wall it is derated to 14ga
12:42 AM enleth: it's virtually impossible to buy other wire sizes
12:42 AM enleth: at least outside of specialty distributors
12:42 AM roycroft: if you pull lots of wires in a single conduit it will be further derated
12:42 AM roycroft: and if it's an extremely long run it will also be derate
12:42 AM roycroft: t
12:43 AM roycroft: so 12ga is necessary for a 15a circuit in some circumstances
12:43 AM Wolf__: if you have safety concerns go back to knob and tube wiring
12:43 AM roycroft: and for that matter, 10ga or 8ga may be necessary under extraordinary conditions
12:43 AM roycroft: i consult my nec book when i have safety concerns, and follow it
12:44 AM Wolf__: thats how I install stuff as well, check code, install to it or higher
12:44 AM roycroft: copper is very expensive
12:44 AM Crom: If I was a contractor building houses, I'd probably use 14awg for lighting. My house built in 1987 to "code" has 14awg on 15amp circuits for outlets. I've replaced about 1/2 of it with 12awg back to the panel. Waiting for my wife to let me rip up more walls
12:45 AM enleth: roycroft: for me, 8ga for a 15A circuit would indicate a design problem - too much stuff packed into a single conduit or something like that, unreasonably increasing the cost
12:45 AM roycroft: i would only ever overbuild an elecrical wire run if i thought i might want to upgrade the circuit to a higher amperage later
12:45 AM Crom: not rebuilding after an electrical fire is cheaper still
12:45 AM roycroft: enleth: or a 500m run from the breaker to the end of the circuit :)
12:45 AM roycroft: i said it would be an extraordinary circumstance
12:45 AM Crom: 8awg is required on a 200' 15amp run
12:46 AM enleth: I'd seriously consider calling it a "design problem" as well
12:46 AM roycroft: you won't have an electrical fire if you follow the code religiously and use ul-rated materials
12:46 AM enleth: but a 500m run is probably underground or overhead and can use an aluminum wire, so the cost stops geing an issue
12:46 AM roycroft: this is not some kind of dark art
12:46 AM enleth: *being
12:47 AM roycroft: yes, i'm thinking an underground or overhead drop to an outbuilding that only needs a light or something
12:47 AM enleth: then again, for aluminum it's a completely different sizing chart
12:47 AM roycroft: and for the record, i did not state that the run would have to be 500m to require 8ga wired
12:47 AM Crom: I've done driveway lights with 200' runs and I've run 8awg
12:47 AM roycroft: wire
12:47 AM roycroft: i just pulled that number out of the air
12:47 AM roycroft: because i don't know what it needs
12:48 AM Crom: every 100' go up a wire size
12:48 AM roycroft: but i can look it up quickly if i ever had the need to do sucn an installation
12:48 AM Crom: my 100' extension cords are all 10awg
12:48 AM enleth: roycroft: as for oversizing wire for future-proofing - it needs to be done carefully too, it's not *that* easy to get a too high short circuit current, but is *doable*, and the breakers can only handle so much before they weld shut
12:48 AM roycroft: if it were that simple then the nec book would be 8 pages long :)
12:48 AM XXCoder: this house is built in 1946, but im not sure if there is orginial wiring, if any, left.
12:48 AM Crom: 25' and 50' are all 12awg
12:49 AM XXCoder: we evenually want to wire garage for lighting, what wire and methid is best?
12:49 AM Crom: I need to get another NEC book, my big one is 2014
12:49 AM roycroft: do you use 2x8 studs spaced at 12" too, crom, just to be sure?
12:49 AM Crom: XXCoder: how far from main panel?
12:50 AM XXCoder: the garage? its external and seperate
12:50 AM XXCoder: and never had any power of any kind lol
12:50 AM Crom: roycroft: only on 4 story houses
12:50 AM Wolf__: I know my county is still using 2014 nec code
12:50 AM XXCoder: gonna love old wood!
12:50 AM XXCoder: beams is 25 feet long, good luck finding its like :)
12:50 AM roycroft: overbuilding as a rule is wasteful, and goes against everything that is taught in engineering schools
12:51 AM Wolf__: my house had 2” x 4” lumber…
12:52 AM Crom: I built a cold storage building for wine. 2x4 studs on 24" centers oposite sides ofset 12" with R33 insulation between footer and header are both 2x12
12:52 AM enleth: roycroft: I've had a re-wiring job once where the main panel was fed with a 4x75mm^2 (about 000ga) cable coming right off the local 25kV 400MVA transformer's LV busbars, some 70m down the block. I had to be pretty careful not to oversize circuits as the 6000kA surge current limit for the 10, 16, 20 and 25 breakers could have been exceeded with such a supply
12:53 AM enleth: *6kA
12:53 AM enleth: derp
12:54 AM enleth: (the breakers state the number in A, I usually speak kA, not the first time I wrote "6000kA" by accident)
12:54 AM Crom: I've run 250mcm and 500mcm and some 750mcm at sears point raceway for the drag strip lights and scoreboard. a couple of runs were 1.5km
12:54 AM roycroft: that would be a big breaker :)
12:54 AM XXCoder: heh
12:54 AM XXCoder: 1.8 jillionAmps!
12:55 AM Crom: 2.45jigawatts
12:56 AM * roycroft tosses his empty cans into the mr fusion
12:56 AM XXCoder: :)
12:57 AM enleth: if I rememer correctly, the 3 phase 32A circut had 0.12ohms of combined short circuit resistance, 2.6kA surge current
12:57 AM enleth: *remember, gah
12:57 AM Crom: used a 1/2 pickup to pull wire and still broke 30mm nylon rope
12:58 AM enleth: it's not always that one wires something basically hanging right off of the transformer, but it's still worth keeping in mind what the surge currents are
12:58 AM roycroft: yes
12:59 AM Crom: all the mcm stuff was right off the transformer
01:01 AM Crom: all the stuff we did was 460v score tower had transformers to drop is to 240 and 120, we just did the feeds
01:03 AM Crom: grandstand was 2 runs of 2300v to the distro, garages were 1200 to the building and 460 to the spaces, lighting was all 177v, with transformers for each space. 4 to 6 per building
01:04 AM Crom: so to me 12awg is cheap
01:05 AM enleth: Crom: was that aluminum or copper?
01:08 AM MrHindsight: Crom: we had an idiot run some 500mcm for 3-phase and doubled them up and ran each phase through separate conduits :)
01:08 AM MrHindsight: it became a large outdoor induction heater
01:09 AM XXCoder: fancy
01:09 AM roycroft: hopefully that job was on a bid, so the installer learned his lesson
01:41 AM MrHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
02:05 AM gloops: Y axis completed today, lost 2 ballscrew bearing blocks so z can wait
02:06 AM gloops: need to know if linuxcnc 2.8 2 motors 1 axis actually works
02:07 AM enleth: gloops: is there a particular reason why can't you connect two motors to a single drive or two drives to the same step/dir output?
02:07 AM gloops: enleth yes, theyre stepper motors, in theory one could lose position
02:08 AM gloops: that also has issue with current ?
02:08 AM enleth: so... what exactly can linuxcnc do about a lost position on one motor?
02:09 AM gloops: in 2.8 the motors home individually, at least you set out with the motors in tandem
02:09 AM archivist: it corrects at the homing stage
02:09 AM XXCoder: if it dont know, it dont know
02:09 AM gloops: or at least that is the claim
02:10 AM enleth: ah, OK, separate homing makes sense
02:10 AM archivist: quite a few use it I think
02:10 AM gloops: ive not known anyone in here use it, i dont think it will be a problem, its the homing that will be awkward to sort out if anything
02:10 AM Deejay: moin
02:11 AM XXCoder: franjkly, two steppers on single axis? use encoder
02:11 AM XXCoder: on botjh
02:11 AM gloops: XXcoder that would be ideal yes, but i already had the motors
02:12 AM XXCoder: im sure its possible to add encoder.
02:12 AM gloops: if i cant get it to work i think ill go for 1 servo driving both screws
02:12 AM enleth: gloops: if you can connect the screws, maybe connect both now?
02:13 AM enleth: that way if one motor would lag behind, it will be helped along by the other
02:13 AM gloops: enleth well, the motors ive got - using a single motor would be underpowered or borderline i think, i dont like the idea of having 2 motors belted together
02:14 AM gloops: supposing the 1 that loses steps corrects the other
02:14 AM enleth: not sure if there's a potential to mess up step alignment here if the shafts twist a little when tightening couplers
02:14 AM enleth: well, at least they won't drift apart
02:14 AM enleth: so you get the usual stepper crap, without the extra topping of a crooked gantry
02:15 AM XXCoder: why do it require 2 steppers anyway
02:15 AM gloops: it will work i have every faith in linuxcnc
02:16 AM gloops: XXcoder its a fairly wide gantry, 1 central screw is no good, it has to be driven both sides
02:16 AM gloops: i already had 2 3Nm steppers, so im going to try that
02:16 AM XXCoder: ah
02:25 AM gloops: seem to think the homing will have to be along the lines of - side a homes, but side b follows as this happens, then side b homes, side a follows, before finally both latch, what cant happen is one side homes while the other is parked
02:26 AM XXCoder: home both till one hits first
02:27 AM XXCoder: then back only other one till it also hits
02:27 AM gloops: i dont think any manual control is possible until theyre both homed
02:28 AM XXCoder: no its all custom homing code you have to design in
02:28 AM gloops: haha now you tell me
02:28 AM gloops: i think there is a homing routine set out for it
02:29 AM XXCoder: in least I think its possible
02:29 AM XXCoder: problem is figuring out how to align switches
02:29 AM archivist: it is built in us it
02:29 AM archivist: use
02:30 AM gloops: i think..thats what 2.8 was upgraded to do, or one of the things it was upgraded for anyway, just going by forum posts
02:30 AM gloops: probably be next weekend before i get to that point anyway
02:32 AM gloops: if i can get it working im going to make a detailed post for the forum, a lot of people trying to do this
03:13 AM MarcelineVQ: gloops: that would be a really nice thing to do
03:17 AM gloops: well the software is free Marcel, and i was basically spoon fed instructions in here on how to get my first BOB and stepper motor working, and wiring of spindle, i cant help with any coding but i could have a go at a tutorial or help post - support of some kind
04:50 AM Deejay: re
04:52 AM jthornton: morning
04:54 AM XXCoder: yo
04:58 AM jthornton: wow I can use 1.15GB of data a day for the rest of the month
05:12 AM jthornton: 33°F now high for today 31°F
05:15 AM jthornton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5D3BwZOlCo
06:08 AM nallar is now known as Ross
06:26 AM Tom_L: 16F
06:31 AM jthornton: were not bad today but tonight starts a very cold spell
06:31 AM gloops: got the mill running yet Tom?
06:32 AM Tom_L: didn't get much time to work on it last night
06:33 AM Tom_L: i aligned the X axis rails and started mounting them
06:33 AM gloops: bad time of year for doing stuff really
06:35 AM XXCoder: hey hey keep that private
06:35 AM gloops: mrs asked why it wasnt finished yet, so i said come and have a look at it - she came out, looked and said - shout me when something is working lol
06:35 AM XXCoder: heh
06:49 AM Tom_L: brr... dogs didn't care much for that either
06:51 AM jthornton: how's the alignment going?
08:06 AM nallar is now known as Ross
08:17 AM nallar is now known as Ross
08:23 AM nallar is now known as Ross
08:31 AM nallar is now known as Ross
09:03 AM CaptHindsight: https://lifesciences.solutions/bioassemblybot/ $170K for an Epson robot with syringes
09:04 AM SpeedEvil: scientific stuff can be ridiculously expensive as the market is tiny
09:07 AM CaptHindsight: without syringes $50k
09:07 AM CaptHindsight: it's not scientific stuff
09:07 AM CaptHindsight: they took an off the shelf robot and added syringes
09:08 AM CaptHindsight: and they are from Kentucky
09:08 AM SpeedEvil: ah
09:08 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/bioengineering/a-robot-that-prints-tissue
09:09 AM CaptHindsight: the skill is finding buyers for this stuff at these prices
09:10 AM SpeedEvil: yeah
09:10 AM enleth: this is the third time in a couple days I see someone saying "they just took X and added Y" as a comment on an invention/device/product
09:10 AM SpeedEvil: And if buyers at half the price aren't >>2 times, you just lost
09:10 AM enleth: and who knows which time ever
09:10 AM enleth: there's no fucking "just" in it
09:11 AM enleth: go get a robot, a syringe, and some duct tape if it's "just putting one on the other"
09:11 AM SpeedEvil: Depends on the amount of development.
09:11 AM SpeedEvil: Sometimes it is just.
09:11 AM SpeedEvil: Sometimes it's years of testing and lots of software
09:12 AM SpeedEvil: Knowing only the base priced soesn't tell you much
09:12 AM enleth: pretty much every single instance of this I saw was most definitely a lot of iterations, debugging, tuning, testing and whatnot
09:12 AM CaptHindsight: enleth: oh yeah
09:12 AM enleth: even the simplest possible cases
09:12 AM CaptHindsight: yeah, it's not complicated for me, maybe for you it is
09:12 AM CaptHindsight: like when my kids used to ask if something was hard or easy
09:13 AM enleth: CaptHindsight: are you really going for ad hominems immediately?
09:13 AM CaptHindsight: it depends on who is going to do it
09:13 AM CaptHindsight: the hard part is finding the buyers
09:13 AM enleth: I did not comment on *you*, only on the statement you made, which I feel is wrong and simplistic, but somehow you felt the need to imply something about me.
09:14 AM CaptHindsight: my comment was directed at you
09:14 AM CaptHindsight: sorry
09:16 AM CaptHindsight: sorry hard
09:16 AM enleth: and, yes, I do consider such a robot to be pretty hard to put together as a finished product, even though I'm pretty sure I understand how it works on most levels and probably could understand the design, read all their internal documentation and fully comprehend it if I had access to it, service it, etc.
09:16 AM IchGucksLive: hi
09:16 AM CaptHindsight: hard too hard
09:16 AM CaptHindsight: make brain hurt
09:16 AM CaptHindsight: brain go now
09:16 AM IchGucksLive: doint break a bit on brain
09:16 AM enleth: this all has nothing to do with the fact that it was definitely a lot of work to make it tick
09:17 AM CaptHindsight: hard too hard
09:17 AM enleth: mostly in lots and lots of debugging iterations
09:17 AM CaptHindsight: must work at hard stuff
09:17 AM enleth: and this is what irks me in the "they put X on Y" comments
09:17 AM CaptHindsight: yes hard
09:18 AM CaptHindsight: too hard
09:18 AM IchGucksLive: enleth: turn the mashine 90deg ant it is Y on X
09:18 AM CaptHindsight: why even try, much brain hurts
09:18 AM IchGucksLive: if i take the mashine to the classroom it may get Axis changed
09:18 AM IchGucksLive: as best placement
09:18 AM CaptHindsight: use mach, make easier on brain
09:19 AM enleth: CaptHindsight: your messages stopped being comprehensible a while ago, FYI
09:19 AM CaptHindsight: brain hurts
09:19 AM CaptHindsight: must rest brain now
09:20 AM IchGucksLive: im off have a goot start to 2018
09:21 AM enleth: the other such comment yesterday was about a kebab vending machine that stores refrigerated kebabs and dispenses them heated and grilled. "they just put a fridge and a microwave together!", well I would fucking like to see the guy who wrote that locked in a room with a fridge and a microwave and told he'll be only let out of it when he turns them into an identical vending machine
09:22 AM CaptHindsight: good thing it's not your project
09:23 AM enleth: why?
09:23 AM Rab: That bot might have been easy, even trivial, but selling and supporting it for the biomedical engineering market may not be. One little word, "compliance", can easily add a $1MM premium. If you're only selling 10 units, each one gets a $100K markup or there's no point being in business.
09:24 AM CaptHindsight: not everyone is a pro at sports, engineering , music etc no matter how hard they try
09:24 AM enleth: who said anything about being a pro? what does that have to do with anything here?
09:24 AM CaptHindsight: some people are just negative about everything
09:26 AM Tom_L: jthornton, i haven't started fine tuning it yet but it doesn't look bad so far
09:27 AM Tom_L: probably do that when i have motors to move it
09:28 AM CaptHindsight: Rab: those aren't for clinical use, just the lab, so good for them
09:29 AM enleth: Rab: there's still stuff that's conceptually "trivial" but just takes hundreds of man-hours of well-educated ang highly paid people to turn a concept into something that works reliably
09:31 AM enleth: even normal 3D printers - I mean, how much more cliche can you get looking for a "simple" device than a plastic squirter on a flimsy XYZ frame
09:32 AM enleth: they've been around for decades, the current 3D printing fad is 10 years old now (RepRap started around 2006/2007 I think), thousands upon thousands of hours put into designing those things by hundreds of startups, the concept couldn't be possibly any simpler and more thougoutly explored now
09:32 AM enleth: and yet there still are new designs that shit themselves half the time you try to use them
09:33 AM enleth: because it takes a lot of debugging and tweaking to get one that isn't complete utter crap
09:33 AM enleth: "simple" my ass
09:33 AM CaptHindsight: sure, and look at who designed them
09:33 AM Rab: CaptHindsight, knowing a little--not a lot--about the lab market, I have noticed that people do pay a premium for fitness for purpose. That isn't necessarily a cheap assurance to provide.
09:33 AM CaptHindsight: it was mostly a con game
09:34 AM enleth: CaptHindsight: eh, there are kickstarted con artists, but also genuine 3D printer vendors who try to sell actual useful products
09:34 AM gregcnc_: all made to a price point
09:34 AM Rab: Maybe these people are ripoff artists. But I don't think that's obvious, just from recognizing their OEM vendor.
09:34 AM enleth: doesn't stop the produts from sucking donkey bollocks until they get through a couple iterations and figure out what doesn't work and why
09:35 AM CaptHindsight: again, depends on who designed it and why
09:35 AM gregcnc_: I agree
09:35 AM CaptHindsight: this is the part that business managers don't understand
09:35 AM enleth: even the best engineers in the design departments are not magicians
09:35 AM enleth: there *will* be bugs even in "simple" designs
09:36 AM CaptHindsight: with the help of human resources
09:36 AM CaptHindsight: there is an actual degree for that
09:36 AM CaptHindsight: yeah yeah we know it's all very hard
09:36 AM enleth: and there *will* be things that just take a lot of tedious work that have absolutely jack shit to do with the design, it's simplicity and all that
09:40 AM enleth: CaptHindsight: who's "we"?
09:40 AM enleth: what's "all"?
09:42 AM CaptHindsight: hard
09:42 AM gregcnc_: what are they claiming? patents never disclose all the juicy facts https://patents.google.com/patent/US20150105891A1
09:43 AM enleth: CaptHindsight: why are you doing this?
09:44 AM CaptHindsight: gregcnc_: nobody else thought to patent a syringe for cells attached to a robot arm
09:44 AM gregcnc_: right
09:44 AM gregcnc_: patents are a funny like that
09:44 AM CaptHindsight: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-human-os/biomedical/devices/dean-kamen-announces-organbuilding-institute
09:45 AM CaptHindsight: why they had to use the robot mentioned above
09:45 AM CaptHindsight: genius from Kentucky
09:46 AM enleth: I'm pretty sure it's possible to take every single patent thre is, including the ones about inventions that revolutionized something, and describe it using disparaging wording to make it sound like a joke
09:46 AM enleth: I'm not sure why would anyone want to do that, though
09:46 AM CaptHindsight: even though it's been done for a decade, the prior art doesn't matter
09:47 AM CaptHindsight: first to file
09:48 AM CaptHindsight: it's the new genius
09:48 AM enleth: ok, whatever, done with it, not going to argue on those terms, no point
09:48 AM Rab: It seems like the bulk of their patent is focused on the software side, which looks like some pretty serious development. Would you feel better if it was a $70K robot and a $100K software package with a dongle?
09:49 AM CaptHindsight: there might be something about printing vasculature in there
09:49 AM enleth: Rab: thanks
09:49 AM enleth: Rab: that's quite to the point
09:49 AM CaptHindsight: that was what others weren't offering
09:49 AM CaptHindsight: no, I don't know why it's not $250k
09:50 AM CaptHindsight: or $2M
09:50 AM Tom_L: i'm just wondering why we're going on and on about some silly robot arm
09:51 AM CaptHindsight: ways to find disposable income
09:51 AM gregcnc_: i guess i haven't used the new google patent search yet, i like it
09:51 AM CaptHindsight: or money to lock away
09:51 AM CaptHindsight: depending on your nature
09:52 AM gregcnc_: better to take this knowledge to the grave or you might end up with 3d printed godzilla roaming the streets
09:52 AM CaptHindsight: I'd like that
09:53 AM CaptHindsight: until someone gets hurt
09:55 AM Tom_L: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/30/kansas-swatting-suspect-arrested-in-los-angeles.html
09:55 AM Tom_L: the guy that was shot was about 3 blocks from me
09:57 AM CaptHindsight: reading that earlier
09:57 AM Tom_L: if you watch the body cam footage, the cop reacted way too quick
09:58 AM CaptHindsight: will anything change?
09:59 AM gregcnc_: not if traing doesn't
09:59 AM CaptHindsight: do I really need start wearing a vest when answering the door or while driving?
10:00 AM CaptHindsight: + need to
10:00 AM gregcnc_: my brother in law was in police explorers until last school year, surprising how military the training was even at highschool age
10:00 AM gregcnc_: he loved it
10:00 AM enleth: I wonder if we live long enough to see special tactics cops wearing armored exoskeletons so that they don't have to fear anything from the criminals and don't need to overreact, just being able to walk up to a guy shooting at them, yank the gun out of their hands and cuff them
10:03 AM CaptHindsight: there was a documentary similar to Idiocracy about that, Robocop 1987
10:04 AM Rab: “Inscripted on the officer’s [armored exoskeleton], and I hate to use profanity, but it said, “you’re f*****,”’ Laney Sweet, Daniel Shaver’s wife said.
10:06 AM enleth: I just wish the people tasked with responding to senseless use of force could safely ignore that force being used on them instead of having to respond with even more force
10:09 AM CaptHindsight: it's been class warfare in the US for quite a while, most don't want to accept that yet
10:10 AM CaptHindsight: this didn't happen at a gated estate
10:15 AM gregcnc_: details CL ad for a lathe https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/tls/d/sheldon-lathe-on-stand/6442302336.html
10:16 AM CaptHindsight: no instruction manual :)
10:17 AM miss0r: I just got back from a mandatory after christmas visit. I broke my grandpas favorite chair...
10:17 AM gregcnc_: capthindsight you still looking for a cnc lathe? https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/hvo/d/hyundai-cnc-lathe-hit18/6441950016.html
10:17 AM gregcnc_: i think it was listed several months ago
10:17 AM miss0r: I now have some serious pondering to do, on how to mend a broken leg.
10:17 AM CaptHindsight: "My business partner committed suicide"
10:17 AM Rab: brutal
10:18 AM CaptHindsight: just FYI
10:18 AM gregcnc_: odd disclosure
10:18 AM miss0r: machine looks decent thou
10:19 AM CaptHindsight: gregcnc_: haven't finished the linear servo air bearing lathe yet
10:19 AM gregcnc_: did you get a hold of all the components?
10:19 AM CaptHindsight: yeah, had most
10:20 AM Rab: CaptHindsight, which linear servos?
10:20 AM miss0r: CaptHindsight: now that project sounds interresting. Do you have pictures to share?
10:20 AM Tom_L: enleth there was no force being used on them in this case
10:20 AM CaptHindsight: rockwell linear
10:20 AM CaptHindsight: does that lathe have a c-axis?
10:21 AM Tom_L: maybe better judgement would be in order instead then the kid would still be alive
10:22 AM CaptHindsight: gregcnc_: I don't make many parts. So I don't really need one until I need one.
10:23 AM enleth: Tom_L: but they acted out of fear of force being potentially used - which perhaps could've been helped with better training, but ultimately those guys will always be afraid of someone pulling a gun on them, which ups the probability of an accident
10:24 AM enleth: (yeah, I know one of them was known to be trigger-happy too)
10:25 AM Tom_L: they didn't handle a potential hostage situation the normal ways period.
10:25 AM gregcnc_: i don't think the Hit-18s has C axis
10:26 AM Tom_L: some get in it just for the rush sad to say
10:26 AM Rab: Making the cops invulnerable will prevent some violent confrontations, but not the ones cops choose to initiate. Those will increase.
10:27 AM CaptHindsight: Rab: similar to https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANORAD-CORP-MAGNETIC-Actuator-Travel-350mm-CNC-ROUTER-1/281084244068
10:27 AM Rab: I think we're much more likely to see drone reconnaissance than Iron Man suits, anyway.
10:27 AM enleth: Rab: there's no excuse to be violent if you don't need to be afraid for your own safety, is there?
10:28 AM pfred1: this the swatter prank?
10:28 AM Tom_L: yes
10:28 AM pfred1: yeah I'm just going to have to mine my property here I suppose
10:29 AM enleth: Tom_L: that in turn might have been a fault of their commander, something went wrong at that level if those two guys were ordered to go right for the door
10:29 AM pfred1: some bouncing betties should do the trick
10:29 AM Rab: enleth, murder by cop, rape by cop, property destruction by cop are all things that happen. These are phenomena of human nature and authority.
10:29 AM Tom_L: they were clear across the street on a dark night trying to make life decisions
10:29 AM pfred1: Achtung Minen!
10:30 AM CaptHindsight: pfred1: wouldn't help here
10:30 AM CaptHindsight: the signs would need to be in English :)
10:33 AM CaptHindsight: recent op ed in the NYT https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/opinion/chicago-police-black-kids-gangs.html
10:34 AM CaptHindsight: common in police states
10:34 AM enleth: Rab: well, yeah. least we can do is try to figure out how to make it less frequent and easier to eliminate
10:36 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: sorry it happened so close to your home
10:37 AM CaptHindsight: happens often in Chicago, not much has changed even with body cams and new management
10:40 AM pfred1: we need this for thrawting swat invasions http://50bmgstore.com/images/Barrett82A1.jpg
10:41 AM pfred1: that'll make them think twice
10:41 AM pfred1: that bullet vest is only gonna slow ya down punk!
10:41 AM gregcnc_: end game you still dead
10:42 AM CaptHindsight: nah, you can't the average person with too much firepower
10:42 AM CaptHindsight: sell em guns but not the good stuff
10:43 AM CaptHindsight: keep em on edge to keep em buyin
10:43 AM pfred1: not if you have an escape plan
10:43 AM CaptHindsight: I'm pro RPG for the home owner
10:44 AM CaptHindsight: and what's wrong with land mines as long as they make you happy and you don't hurt anyone
10:45 AM CaptHindsight: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness after all :)
10:49 AM gregcnc_: guys using the centroid acorn setting up limit+index homing like it's something new...
10:54 AM CaptHindsight: gregcnc_: http://auctions.machinetoolbids.com/Listing/Details/652417/HYUNDAI-HIT18S-CNC-LATHE
10:54 AM CaptHindsight: are these specs in the ballpark ^^
11:46 AM miss0r: I sure hope this epoxy'n stainless steel mesh will fix this chair leg.
11:50 AM pfred1: sounds like a butch job to me
11:52 AM miss0r: Yeah. I broke my grandpa's favorite chair on a visit today... Feeling realy bad, and I want to make a nice repair. Let me show you a picture of the good leg, and indicate where it is broken... 2 sec
11:54 AM miss0r: http://picpaste.com/chair-xraFeHON.jpg
11:55 AM miss0r: red circle indicates the breaking point on the leg I am currently gluing up
11:56 AM miss0r: realy not a repair to be taken lightly. That is a very stressfull point
12:03 PM pfred1: oh that's gonna show
12:04 PM MarcelineVQ: miss0r: yeah :O almost want to drill through the crack and put in dowling except that the finish would be pretty obviously affected
12:04 PM pfred1: with repairs there's a school of thought that goes make the repair a design feature
12:04 PM MarcelineVQ: iow drill the other side so they match? :>
12:05 PM pfred1: sometimes it is the only viable way to esthetically balance things
12:06 PM pfred1: your other option is to simply replace the whole faqiled piece
12:06 PM pfred1: make a steam bender
12:06 PM pfred1: it might actually be easier
12:07 PM MarcelineVQ: hard to get a piece the same color :(
12:07 PM pfred1: yeah I was thinking matching the stain will be a challenge
12:08 PM pfred1: but if you've got a good eye mixing stain isn't that hard
12:08 PM miss0r: I've glued it back together with epoxy - waiting for it to cure.
12:08 PM MarcelineVQ: miss0r: by drill and dowel I mean from this direction, straddling the hole https://i.imgur.com/KPqX6V6.gif
12:09 PM miss0r: Then I will use a wood router to insert the stainless mesh into the wood on the 'outside' of the bend, where the 'pull' stress will be. That will be epoxyed in as well. Then i will sand it and do some paint repair on the visible part. (only a hairline fracture)
12:09 PM pfred1: to match that I'd use a dark stain wipe it off then use a red stain
12:09 PM MarcelineVQ: pfred1: that's a neat idea
12:09 PM miss0r: MarcelineVQ: I don't think that will have any significant strength in this case
12:09 PM pfred1: yeah I've looked into steam bending it doesn't look all that hard
12:09 PM pfred1: a piece of pipe a kettle and a form
12:10 PM miss0r: This is one of thoes chair designs that are stressed close to death by default
12:10 PM MarcelineVQ: outside is where the tensile stress is? now I'm wondering how this goes together
12:10 PM pfred1: what kind of wood do you think it is?
12:10 PM miss0r: For obvious reasons, I can't take a photo of the chair in one piece :)
12:10 PM MarcelineVQ: hehe
12:10 PM pfred1: it might be mahogony?
12:11 PM miss0r: I don't know. But it looks like some sort of x-wood
12:11 PM miss0r: plywood?
12:11 PM pfred1: it is steam bent
12:11 PM miss0r: it is obviously layered
12:11 PM pfred1: they ripped stips steamed them put them on a form and glued them up
12:12 PM pfred1: the hardest part about steam bending is planning for the spring back
12:12 PM miss0r: yeah. I don't feel much like steam bending a new leg. But if I am forced to, I will
12:12 PM pfred1: because what you form up is going to pring back a bit when you unclamp it
12:12 PM pfred1: spring back
12:12 PM miss0r: I feel realy bad. I could just tell I broke his heart, the only chair grandma allowed him to bring when they were forced to sell the house
12:13 PM MarcelineVQ: he'd have broken it himself sooner or later, it's a good thing you broke it since you can fix it
12:13 PM pfred1: miss0r thinking about dieting now?
12:13 PM miss0r: pfred1: hehe yeah
12:13 PM pfred1: arter the holidays it is a popular line of thought
12:14 PM miss0r: it actualy happened because I leaned to one side to try'n stop my kid breaking something else
12:14 PM miss0r: Then I managed to get all my weight on that one leg.
12:14 PM pfred1: accidents happen
12:15 PM miss0r: its made from four legs(duh), they are all four connected to a square tube with metric thread in the middle. On the top part of the legs, theres a cloth chair suspended between thoes four points, and a leather backing in that cloth seat
12:16 PM pfred1: it sounds like a really nice piece
12:16 PM miss0r: so, two of the legt are longer to go up and hold the cloth part at the rear
12:16 PM pfred1: mid century modern?
12:16 PM miss0r: if I remember correctly, he sold the other chair when they moved, and got a quite substantial price for it. Some famous designer(not that I know anything about that)
12:16 PM miss0r: Something like that
12:17 PM pfred1: yeah it is hot stuff
12:17 PM pfred1: in the right market
12:17 PM miss0r: yeah. So fingers crossed. I know my way around wood, but this is one wood class 101
12:17 PM pfred1: look at it less repairing the chair and more getting a chair education
12:18 PM miss0r: I'm just shy of 250lbs, so perhaps I should've never been in that chair
12:19 PM pfred1: I bet you'll think twice before sitting in it again
12:19 PM miss0r: Well, I promised myself I would sit in it one last time after the repair, just to make sure. Then my rear will never be near that chair again
12:19 PM pfred1: although to test your fix I suppose you'll have to
12:19 PM miss0r: ^^
12:20 PM pfred1: I've never made a full blown chair myself yet
12:20 PM pfred1: chairs seems pretty challenging to me for what they are
12:20 PM pfred1: like not worth the trouble
12:21 PM MarcelineVQ: there's a lot to get right to make them fir more than one specific person comfortably
12:21 PM MarcelineVQ: *fit
12:21 PM pfred1: not when i can find chairs all day long at yard sales for a song
12:21 PM miss0r: Yeah.. I've never made a chair either. The most complicated wood project i've ever made, was the 18" woofer enclosure for my home cinema: http://picpaste.com/20160921_002118-wFsuREPJ.jpg
12:21 PM pfred1: MarcelineVQ I always worry about the rocker effect
12:22 PM miss0r: Might I add, NO screws used.
12:22 PM miss0r: well.. for fixing the speaker unit obviously, otherwise none
12:22 PM pfred1: miss0r that's pretty weird
12:22 PM MarcelineVQ: pfred1: not quite sure what you mean by that
12:22 PM miss0r: pfred1: weird how?
12:23 PM pfred1: MarcelineVQ making a 3 legged stool out of a 4 leg chair
12:23 PM miss0r: lol
12:23 PM MarcelineVQ: shucks, 3 legged are more stable anyway
12:23 PM pfred1: MarcelineVQ people do expect 4 leg chairs to sit on all 4 legs
12:23 PM MarcelineVQ: so what if it has an extra leg not quite touching the ground!
12:24 PM miss0r: You should just get a floor mounted horisontal sander, large enough to place a chair on, and always make your chairs 2 inches higher than you need'em
12:25 PM miss0r: problem solved ;)
12:25 PM pfred1: I have dragged some projects on sidewalks to flatten them
12:25 PM miss0r: lol
12:25 PM miss0r: pfred1: what was so weird about the woofer box? (I'm curious)
12:26 PM pfred1: hard to put my finger on it
12:26 PM pfred1: I guess all of the cut outs?
12:26 PM miss0r: Thoes are finger joints
12:27 PM pfred1: I mean in the middle those are box joints BTW
12:27 PM miss0r: I know they are not needed with modern glue with the low stress of such a box, but it looks realy neat.
12:27 PM pfred1: finger joints hold together mouldings
12:28 PM miss0r: I'm handicapped in english. :)
12:28 PM miss0r: especially when it comes to technical woodworking terms
12:28 PM pfred1: these are finger joints https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Miroslav_Gasparik/publication/267452724/figure/fig1/AS:295751667208197@1447524100446/Fig-1-Structural-finger-joint.png
12:28 PM miss0r: Ahh, I see
12:28 PM pfred1: yeah it is a cmmon mistake
12:29 PM MarcelineVQ: blame wikipedia :(
12:29 PM pfred1: call it a pet peeve of mine
12:29 PM miss0r: I've rounded off all outside corners with a large radius, so the joints shows more clearly, and I've only lightly oiled the box. it looks realy nice
12:29 PM pfred1: at least you didn't call them dovetails
12:30 PM miss0r: Yeah, I have a vauge idea what thoes are ;)
12:30 PM pfred1: really for speaker cabs you're best off using MDF
12:30 PM pfred1: MDF is so dense
12:30 PM MarcelineVQ: oh that reminds me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef1lh9YfQwk
12:30 PM miss0r: Yeah. But plywood was what I had laying around. But with that design I made, the box is VERY stiff
12:31 PM pfred1: one thing I've learned is any box makes a speaker driver sound better
12:31 PM pfred1: beyond all of those formulas and what have you
12:32 PM miss0r: Unless you have completely miscalculated the ports on a vented box
12:32 PM miss0r: I've seen a box that completely cancelled itself out, because the creator miscalculated the ports. All you could hear was air moving forward and back
12:32 PM pfred1: nah evne then the speaker will still sound better than with the driver in free air
12:33 PM miss0r: sure. Driver in free air is pointless
12:33 PM pfred1: though it won't sound as good as a tuned cab
12:33 PM miss0r: Indeed
12:33 PM pfred1: still I've made some really whatever speker enclosurres and hey always sound good to me
12:34 PM miss0r: Well, I have a 35m^2 home cinema/man cave. This box is fed with a 2kw(real sin watt) amp. I saw the movie 'fury' with that thing cranked up. I felt like I was getting shot at :)
12:34 PM pfred1: I have some 12" 3 ways here that pack a punch
12:35 PM pfred1: they're only getting fed 320 Watts though
12:35 PM miss0r: yeah. I only have two 8" in both my front speakers. It was lacking something
12:35 PM pfred1: a buddy of mine had wome 15" CV PA cabinets hooked up to a 1,200 Watt PA amp
12:35 PM pfred1: it was good for 3 blocks
12:36 PM pfred1: like you could hear it from 3 blocks away
12:36 PM miss0r: Yeah :] that packs a punch. i used to have a mobile disco I rented out. The 18" unit is a leftover unit, I didn't sell with the rest of the gear
12:36 PM pfred1: he was really into death metal too
12:37 PM miss0r: haha. Sorry, but that just sounds like a waste on thoes speakers. Death metal is played just fine with a 15" woofer and a tweeter :D
12:37 PM pfred1: there was a fan in that amp but it really wasn't an issue
12:37 PM pfred1: that's what those CV cabinets were
12:38 PM pfred1: just a big woofer and a horn tweeter
12:38 PM miss0r: This was my mobile speaker setup back in the day: http://picpaste.com/IMG_0242-O6d4DeNz.JPG
12:38 PM miss0r: indeed
12:38 PM miss0r: a horn tweeter perfectly handles upper mid range
12:39 PM pfred1: as i can recall his horns were shorter the whole cabinet ws half those
12:39 PM miss0r: and then you just have to have the cabinet tuned for using the bass units to handle the lower midrange
12:40 PM pfred1: he got it off a friend of his that had a death metal band it was their volvals PA system for shows
12:40 PM miss0r: The 15" units in the old setup cost around $500 us. the 18" vere a bit cheaper. The horns around 300. That setup cost alot :)
12:40 PM miss0r: nice
12:40 PM miss0r: Homebuild stuff all :)
12:40 PM pfred1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_Feast_(band)
12:40 PM pfred1: I know Adam
12:41 PM miss0r: nice. I can't remember them touring Denmark, so chances are i've never seen them ;)
12:41 PM miss0r: (althou I do attend a metal concert once in a while)
12:41 PM pfred1: they did tour Europe once
12:42 PM pfred1: when it seemed like they were going to break into the big time Adam's faher gave him the family business
12:42 PM pfred1: and that was pretty much the end of that
12:42 PM pfred1: they were good though
12:42 PM miss0r: Sadly I am lazy. There are very few bands I would actually travel leave the country to see.
12:42 PM pfred1: I saw them open for Overkill and they blew Overkill away
12:43 PM miss0r: :] I love it when that happens
12:43 PM pfred1: yeah they were good
12:43 PM pfred1: they got some videos up on YouTube
12:43 PM pfred1: I donno how good they are today
12:43 PM pfred1: now it is a hobby band
12:44 PM pfred1: they're like old and all
12:44 PM miss0r: Can you link me to some of the good stuff (i'm likely to click the wrong thing)
12:44 PM pfred1: you have as much chance of finding something good by them as I do
12:44 PM pfred1: I just know they got stuff up I don't know what's good or bad
12:44 PM miss0r: atleast you have some idea what they look like. 'blood feats' yeilds alot of strange results
12:45 PM pfred1: pfft I haven't seen Adam in over 10 years now
12:45 PM pfred1: as i understand it he's bald today?
12:45 PM miss0r: oh well :)
12:45 PM pfred1: for a while he did plugs but then he gave up and went with it
12:45 PM miss0r: hehe. I'm not to be considered old, and i've been bald for 10 years
12:46 PM pfred1: yeah he went bald young
12:46 PM miss0r: I just went with it. I've been compensating with a full beard ever since ;)
12:46 PM miss0r: When people ask about it, I just claim gravity did it
12:48 PM pfred1: I hate YouTube videos with long intros
12:48 PM miss0r: hmmm... I would have liked for this epoxy to cure a little faster. I am beginning to worrie about the hardener
12:48 PM SpeedEvil: miss0r: heat
12:49 PM pfred1: always mix epoxy as much as you think you need to, then mix it that much again
12:50 PM SpeedEvil: If it sets while mixing, you mixed too much.
12:51 PM miss0r: SpeedEvil: I have it placed under a lightbulb at the moment.
12:51 PM miss0r: It is slowly starting to cure
12:51 PM pfred1: you do have to be careful with JB Quik
12:51 PM pfred1: Quik sets up in like 5 minutes
12:52 PM miss0r: this 'should' take 20 minuts. and its been twice that now.
12:52 PM pfred1: regular epoxy is like 24 hours cure
12:53 PM miss0r: yeah. This is 20 minuts
12:53 PM pfred1: that's just grabbing time
12:53 PM MarcelineVQ: their timing is based on room temp or higher too, any bit lower than room temp makes things like that take a lot longer
12:54 PM pfred1: full strength 24 hours
12:54 PM pfred1: 20 minute epoxy is supposed to get mush stronger than the 5 minute variety
12:56 PM miss0r: hah... I must have remembered wrong: https://www.westsystem.com/205-fast-hardener/
01:01 PM pfred1: Cure to maximum strength: 1 to 4 days
01:01 PM pfred1: there's a real test of patience
01:01 PM miss0r: yeah... how wonderfull
01:01 PM gloops: so i bought a 1920s fret saw, 25 minutes drive away, then they closed the motorway, 4 hours later im home
01:02 PM MarcelineVQ: don't fret
01:02 PM pfred1: what is a 1920s fret saw?
01:02 PM gloops: scroll saw?
01:02 PM MarcelineVQ: it's a coping saw afaik
01:02 PM pfred1: oh i have a couple of those
01:02 PM pfred1: none quite that old though
01:03 PM MarcelineVQ: oh it's for tigther spots than a coping interesting
01:03 PM pfred1: oldest tools i have are planes and chisels
01:03 PM pfred1: I just got an over 190 year old plane last year
01:03 PM pfred1: it looks great for its age too
01:03 PM gloops: probably worth something
01:03 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: is it a fret saw or a scroll saw? scroll saws are powered
01:04 PM gregcnc_: check out the modified bed on this mill. Man I hope that job paid well. https://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/hvo/d/2005-haas-cnc-vertical/6442735195.html
01:04 PM pfred1: I saw one like it online going for $225
01:04 PM gloops: its foot powered lol
01:04 PM MarcelineVQ: that's neato
01:04 PM pfred1: that's cool
01:04 PM pfred1: you can do something during a power failure
01:04 PM gloops: http://www.scrollsaws.com/images/SawCollect/Hobbies.jpg
01:05 PM gloops: its a hobbies, not quite the same as that one
01:05 PM L29Ah: is there an usable open source milling cam?
01:05 PM pfred1: this was my last scroll saw project https://i.imgur.com/Y6WSMdL.jpg
01:05 PM gloops: well the idea was it was cheap and local, i could have driven to the coast in that time
01:06 PM pfred1: it only takes me 15 minutes to drive to the coast from here
01:06 PM pfred1: whih does make the air kind of salty
01:06 PM gloops: L29Ah have you tried any yet?
01:07 PM gloops: im about an hour and a half from the coast, well the coast with a beach, Hull is about an hour away with a tailwind
01:07 PM pfred1: I almost bought a Hawk scroll saw once
01:07 PM pfred1: I saw one at a yard sale for $200
01:07 PM pfred1: but I don't scroll like I used to
01:07 PM L29Ah: gloops: i've poked pycam and genericcam
01:08 PM pfred1: pycam is why I'm building a new PC
01:08 PM L29Ah: also camotics, but it doesn't generate tool paths at all
01:08 PM gloops: try freecad, fusion 360 is what a lot use, its free for personal use - pay if youre making money with it
01:08 PM pfred1: 65,357 seconds PyCAM http://i.imgur.com/Hj9r67a.jpg
01:09 PM pfred1: gloops don't call Fusion 360 free
01:09 PM pfred1: call it gratis with license encumberments
01:09 PM L29Ah: seems like pycam can't follow edges
01:09 PM gloops: i dont use it, but it is free isnt it? i dont like cloud based
01:09 PM L29Ah: so it won't produce small holes like at all
01:09 PM pfred1: pyCAM isn't the easiest software to configure
01:10 PM gloops: Freecad still has issues i think but it is getting close to being a serious app
01:10 PM pfred1: yeah i have high hopes for FreeCAD
01:10 PM pfred1: the copy I have is a crash and burner though
01:10 PM MarcelineVQ: freecad isn't exactly an intuitive gui
01:10 PM gloops: ive generated paths with it but never ran any so dont know for sure
01:10 PM L29Ah: i don't remember freecad being able to generate tool paths
01:10 PM MarcelineVQ: common issue in oss :(
01:11 PM pfred1: it can now
01:11 PM pfred1: 17 pre
01:11 PM L29Ah: kthx
01:11 PM gloops: L29Ah it does now, you want version .16 or above, there is also the daily build
01:11 PM pfred1: the only reason AutoCAD released Fusion 360 gratis was to suck the wind from FLOSS
01:11 PM gloops: there is also heekscnc
01:12 PM pfred1: I thought heeks got rolled into FreeCAD?
01:12 PM gloops: hmm not sure, i think the developer switched, heeks hasnt moved for 2 years i dont think but there was announcement that he was back on it
01:13 PM pfred1: Andy here I think said as much about it?
01:13 PM SpeedEvil: pfred1: Also sketchup
01:14 PM pfred1: I'm hoping on my new system I can get FreeCAD a bit more stable
01:14 PM gloops: i had a few months getting to know freecad, its actually a likeable app when you get used to it, can move fairly quickly with stuff, when youve practised and watched about 40 hours of vids
01:15 PM pfred1: I have a copy of 17 pre that i built but not with the greatest deps
01:15 PM pfred1: it runs but it is pretty flighty
01:16 PM gloops: its not something you can keep drawing and undoing and flciking about in ive found
01:16 PM pfred1: the base of this system is Debian Wheezy so pretty stale
01:17 PM pfred1: I think in March they're going to stop supporting Wheezy?
01:17 PM gloops: no idea, apparently there is some new 3d stuff coming in freecad
01:18 PM gloops: and improved CAM, i told them to get 4th axis it shouldnt be difficult
01:18 PM pfred1: ah Wheezy will get support to May
01:19 PM pfred1: I just put a reminder in my PIM to update before EOL sets in
01:21 PM L29Ah: heekscad from github master doesn't seem to be able to create toolpaths
01:21 PM L29Ah: https://github.com/Heeks/heekscad/search?utf8=✓&q=gcode&type= :/
02:05 PM miss0r: Slowly moving in the right direction: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20171230_210350-Pn3q6NzB.jpg
02:06 PM gloops: erosion tool miss0r?
02:08 PM miss0r: erosion?
02:08 PM miss0r: No :) hehe I'm doing a repair on a char leg I broke earlier today
02:08 PM miss0r: chair*
02:09 PM gloops: oh right
02:09 PM gloops: thought it looked a bited 'eroded' heh
02:09 PM gloops: bit
02:10 PM miss0r: That is the look you get, when you cut out all that wood with a handheld dremmel :]
02:10 PM miss0r: atleast with my clumsy fingers
02:11 PM gloops: be ok with a bit of wax
02:12 PM pfred1: I watched the number two ranked bird carver use rotary tool once
02:12 PM pfred1: he was pretty good
02:13 PM pfred1: the whole time he was carying on about how good the number one guy was though
02:15 PM miss0r: I think i'm number 2^10^10 guy
02:15 PM pfred1: when those guys carve birds you think they can fly
02:16 PM MarcelineVQ: it takes a special kind of person to like birds, it takes a special kind of madman so spend a life creating birds
02:16 PM pfred1: I like birds
02:16 PM pfred1: I go through like a half a ton of bird seed a year feeding them
02:17 PM miss0r: I'd love to do birds instead. Thoes are organic shapes... they can be imperfect and still look good. Try fitting a stainless mesh into a broken wooden leg. now THAT requires expertise :P
02:17 PM pfred1: but I wouldn't say my flock of birds particularly cares for me
02:17 PM miss0r: you park under a tree too?
02:18 PM pfred1: they're pretty good about that
02:30 PM L29Ah: miss0r: why not epoxy/fiberglass?
02:30 PM L29Ah: the dremel job looks quite cumbersome
02:30 PM gregcnc_: uh oh, no wonder i had somebody look at me funny when i said I liked birds
02:38 PM miss0r: L29Ah: I do with the stuff I have at hand :]
02:38 PM miss0r: that, and the idea is it will be completely flush with the surface, so I figured the mesh would give good strength
02:39 PM miss0r: I don't have time for this... but you know how it is; if you break someone elses stuff, that takes priority
02:42 PM gloops: could have put the table saw blade through it and made some plywood inserts
02:43 PM miss0r: I guess. But I am aiming for as little visible repair on the top of it. The bottom is facing the floor
02:43 PM miss0r: and I might be shooting birds with cannons here, but I don't want to redo it
02:45 PM gloops: it will be fine
02:46 PM miss0r: fingers crossed ;)
02:48 PM MarcelineVQ: if you've got that epoxy between the wood peices you're probably in good shape anyway
02:49 PM MarcelineVQ: in the break I mean
02:49 PM MarcelineVQ: according to the product you linked it penetrates fairly well in that grain direction
02:50 PM miss0r: MarcelineVQ: Yeah, it move into the wood farther than I thought. That became clear when I took a die grinder to it, to make room for the mesh
02:51 PM MarcelineVQ: should use it to plasticize my house siding :>
02:52 PM miss0r: :] I actualy bought this for casting a small cnc lathe bed. Mixed with granite
02:52 PM MarcelineVQ: I'd like to do that, make some concrete things first to get a handle on the mouldmaking, then make some granite things down the road from there
02:53 PM miss0r: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20170901_173206-Ceh4mWen.jpg
02:53 PM MarcelineVQ: this is a pretty easy area for conrete but not so much granite :X
02:54 PM MarcelineVQ: something really satisfying about black granites
02:54 PM MarcelineVQ: and dark green
02:54 PM miss0r: Yeah. I found that using the cheap'o brown packageing tape did realy well as a non-stick surface on the mold
02:55 PM MarcelineVQ: oh interesting, you tend to see vegetable oils for concrete non-stick
02:55 PM MarcelineVQ: event he industrial stuff is typically canola oil afaik
02:55 PM miss0r: sure. I was just afraid of it mixing into the surface of the cast
02:55 PM MarcelineVQ: definetly
02:56 PM MarcelineVQ: it's not a cheap thing to make a mistake on, or especially fixable without being noticable I'm guessing
02:56 PM MarcelineVQ: depends how good you are with diamon wheels
02:56 PM miss0r: I made the most of the mold from thoes white kitchen cabinet plates. I think the surface is called melanin? or something like that. Epoxy does not stick to that either. Then I used the tape where I could not use the flat plates
02:57 PM MarcelineVQ: that's the standard stuff, with concrete you don't even need to coat the melanin to get it off, though it's a good idea
02:58 PM miss0r: I thought about using some 'mold release spray', but I was afraid of what would happen when it mixed with the cast. And using that much epoxy is not cheap
02:58 PM miss0r: Not the stuff I could get my hands on anyway
02:58 PM MarcelineVQ: I'd like to make a concrete wash-basin and counter for the shop area that has a flat section off to the side for wet sanding that can drain to the basin
02:58 PM miss0r: THAT and I spend two days washing and drying the correct amount of granite
02:58 PM miss0r: Sure, that would be sweet
02:59 PM miss0r: Sadly I don't have a drain, much less running water in the shop
02:59 PM MarcelineVQ: It would be really neat with colored glass in it but that's a huge pain in the ass to sand off to get the glass to appear if you have any gemoetry more complex than a counter-top
03:00 PM gloops: mold release wax
03:00 PM gloops: 10 coats, + PVA
03:00 PM MarcelineVQ: I've a drain but it's a house-drain, so I need to make a catch-system that water can leave from but particles are mostly caught, for the sake of the plumbing
03:00 PM miss0r: sure... wax would be a good idea
03:01 PM MarcelineVQ: Luckily catch systems don't need to be more complex than a bucket and a dish, whent he bucket is full heavy things can fall into it but water can overflow into the dish and drain away. though what I have in mind should look a little better than the images that conjures up
03:01 PM miss0r: My next shop will have plumming & better insulation! that and MORE ROOM!
03:02 PM gloops: you can also use hairspray as a mold release agent
03:02 PM MarcelineVQ: room is the killer, I've got about 11'x15' of shop-space, and a tiny bit more storage other places
03:03 PM miss0r: Should you be interrested in seeing how packed it is: http://picpaste.com/IMG_1313-89mBf8uK.JPG http://picpaste.com/IMG_1317-SaH0AlwB.JPG
03:03 PM miss0r: This is 26'x 12'
03:03 PM miss0r: ish
03:04 PM gloops: compact layout
03:04 PM MarcelineVQ: doesn't look like it with all that stuff in there hoho
03:04 PM miss0r: gloops: yeah, I could have double the space, and not add any more machines. Althou it would be nice to add a manual mill & a bandsaw
03:05 PM MarcelineVQ: that's what I'm missing most, that's for the reminder, badly need a good metal+wood bandsaw
03:06 PM miss0r: I have a 'cold saw' the roundsaw with the HSS blade in it. It does pretty well. But it would be nice with a bandsaw!
03:06 PM MarcelineVQ: those are so dang cool
03:07 PM miss0r: yeah well, they are somewhat limited in their use. THAT and the blades for this one costs ~$300
03:07 PM gloops: thing im making hogs 5x4 ft which seemed a disaster, until i realised i could get compressor, planer and drill under it, plus some boxes of tools, so maybe ended up with more space heh
03:08 PM miss0r: damn, I would NOT be able to fit that in here :D
03:08 PM gloops: that could be something to think on though, stacking, or under and over that kind of thing
03:09 PM miss0r: unless it was suspended in cables from the loft
03:09 PM gloops: archivists got 3 lathes 2 mills, grinders 9 computers etc in his lol
03:09 PM pfred1: perhaps the most ghetto LinuxCNC setup? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzhd9FalYEk
03:10 PM MarcelineVQ: hoho, mine is going to be far more ghetto for mk1
03:10 PM miss0r: not cheap getting a radial saw thou
03:10 PM pfred1: they sell used for pretty cheap
03:11 PM pfred1: I got mine for $20
03:11 PM miss0r: I take that back. It is pretty ghetto
03:11 PM miss0r: lol @ the control box
03:11 PM pfred1: yeah when he opened the control box I was floored
03:12 PM miss0r: if I was in doubt before, i'm not anymore. That box takes the cake
03:12 PM gloops: radial arm saws sometimes go cheap - reputation for dragging hands off
03:12 PM pfred1: $50 tops for those old dogs
03:12 PM miss0r: gloops: Which is a quality stamp: 'it saws anything, even arms'
03:12 PM MarcelineVQ: these minions though..
03:13 PM gloops: leaves a planed finish on bone
03:13 PM pfred1: I still can't figure out that wire basket axis
03:13 PM MarcelineVQ: just hit the control box, pretty good :>
03:13 PM MarcelineVQ: ezdrivers for fun and profit
03:13 PM pfred1: or the tobogan dust strips
03:14 PM pfred1: who sees a tobogan and thinks CNC?
03:14 PM MarcelineVQ: can't slam him too hard, he sprung for the blue tape
03:14 PM pfred1: no that's a tobogan
03:15 PM MarcelineVQ: who calls a crazy carpet a tobogan as well
03:15 PM pfred1: he gets good results though
03:15 PM gloops: could have used a cyclinder hoover
03:15 PM gloops: cylinder
03:15 PM pfred1: oh yeah the home vacuum dust collection
03:15 PM pfred1: at first i saw the swivel ball and couldn't figure how it worked
03:16 PM MarcelineVQ: not a fool, color coded the logic connectors
03:16 PM pfred1: he he got it working
03:17 PM gloops: hoovers are ok for routers, i wouldnt leave it running for a 6 hour job though lol
03:17 PM pfred1: I don't think he uses the vacuum much
03:17 PM pfred1: half of his shop seems to eb built into the stand
03:18 PM MarcelineVQ: par for the space constraints we were discussing earlier
03:18 PM pfred1: for a while he digresses and goes into everything on it
03:18 PM gloops: ive saved the motor from a tumble dryer - the one with the two fans, one each side of the motor, might trying rigging up some dust extraction with it
03:18 PM gloops: mounted in a tube
03:20 PM pfred1: I think I see how the wire basket axis works now he has drawer slides under it and the bearings just keep it from going side to side
04:27 PM Deejay: gn8
04:32 PM Wolf__: lol wire basket is a base cabinet pull out drawer
04:35 PM gloops: heavy duty drawer slides! clever..clever
04:38 PM SpeedEvil: I got a box of 15 drawer slides, and am somewhat tempted to make a troll video with a stack of axes all 30 degrees to each other machining on the top
04:39 PM skunkworks: heh - that would be cool!
04:41 PM roycroft: you can send me the box of drawer slides if you want :)
04:41 PM roycroft: i need a bunch for my router table and i'm pushing the budget on it :)
04:42 PM * roycroft is reminded that he needs to get back to the shop to work on that
04:42 PM roycroft: i've been trying to resolve an issue with aliexpress
04:42 PM SpeedEvil: roycroft: they're quite cheap.
04:42 PM roycroft: i hate doing chat sessions with support folks, but i'm glad i did
04:42 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10X-Roller-Drawer-Runners-Kitchen-Bedroom-Roller-Replacement-Slide-17mm-runners/222578855064
04:43 PM roycroft: an item is well overdue, and i had opened a dispute on it
04:43 PM gloops: still thousands of holes left to drill in 2017 http://picpaste.com/pics/machine_abbey_011-70nNV1Dp.1514673704.JPG
04:43 PM roycroft: the seller is blaming the fires in california, and that may well be true - i think the seller is likely acting in good faith
04:43 PM SpeedEvil: - I plan to use them to make a sort of segmented vertical tool wall to save space
04:43 PM roycroft: but the seller wants me to resolve the dispute and give it more time
04:43 PM roycroft: aliexpress told me to absolutely not resolve the dispute
04:44 PM SpeedEvil: ~60cm*30cm or so vertically hung sheets, spaced at ~5cm or so, for less commonly used tools.
04:44 PM * roycroft has to start applying plastic laminate this weekend, one of his least favorite tasks to do
04:45 PM roycroft: about the only thing worse is hanging sheetrock
04:46 PM roycroft: i actually don't need that many drawer sliees, speedevil, now that i think about it
04:46 PM roycroft: i'm still pushing the budget, but oh well
04:46 PM roycroft: this is my fifth or sixth router table that i've bought/built
04:46 PM roycroft: and i'm planning on its being the last one
04:46 PM roycroft: so i can go a bit crazy with it
04:47 PM SpeedEvil: :)
04:48 PM gloops: build a cnc roy
04:48 PM gloops: 10x5 ft
04:48 PM roycroft: some day, but that's a completely different project
04:49 PM roycroft: i need to finish my cnc mill before i start thinking about a cnc router anyway
04:49 PM L29Ah: gloops: do you correct your frame nonlinearity in software w/ all those welds or have you succeeded to make it straight somehow?
04:49 PM gloops: frame nonlinearity? hehe
04:50 PM gloops: the key sections are bolted in slots to allow adjustment
04:50 PM gloops: nonlinearity isnt in my vocabulary!
04:55 PM gloops: - not aligned at the moment, a lot of marking has to be done in situ, which involves constant dismantling and reassembly
05:04 PM skunkworks: JT-Shop, have you done any plasma cutting with pid thc?
05:04 PM skunkworks: jthornton,
05:11 PM Tom_L: that _is_ pretty cool
05:11 PM skunkworks: ?
05:11 PM Tom_L: the video you showed me, wasn't that what you were talking about?
05:13 PM skunkworks: had a chance to play just a bit again today
05:13 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOg5C_TusdM
05:15 PM Tom_L: now you're just showing off
05:16 PM skunkworks: maybe just a little
05:19 PM gloops: need a plasma
06:05 PM gloops: of all the metal work orientated facebook groups, the one with the most members is - blade smithing
06:06 PM gloops: 88000 members
06:06 PM gloops: Bladesmithing For Beginners
06:08 PM gloops: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=178708792876117&set=g.1116621635043756&type=1&theater&ifg=1
07:27 PM XXCoder: dang.
07:27 PM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qy0KbQVzfg 10 hours with no stop
07:57 PM Skullworks: skunkworks - no wonder I never hear any updates on the Matsurra and other stuff, you been hiding the videos :)
08:10 PM skunkworks: na- just hide them until things work better
08:13 PM skunkworks: dad uses the mats... I like the K&T
08:27 PM Skullworks: I have a Hurco KM3 and KM3P - (bridgeport clone) so I would be happy with any type of enclosure to keep coolant off me and the floor.
09:12 PM skunkworks: one of the only downside of the K&T - poor coolant control
09:13 PM Tom_shop: anybody know the torque specs for a M5 bolt?
09:15 PM MarcelineVQ: should depend on the markings on the head
09:16 PM MarcelineVQ: at least hopefully metric does that too
09:16 PM Wolf__: crank it in till it snaps, tighten next one little less
09:17 PM MarcelineVQ: there's lots of charts if you know the 'class', which seems to be metric for 'grade'
09:19 PM MarcelineVQ: with a variance between 1.3 ft-lbs to 5.7 ft-lbs for 5mm nominal :X
09:20 PM MarcelineVQ: oh it's up to 7.6 actually
09:21 PM MarcelineVQ: anyway, class 8.8 seems most common, there's a chart here https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension%20Chart%20for%20Metric%20Fasteners.pdf
09:42 PM skunksleep: Log
10:12 PM Tom_L: hmm
10:12 PM Tom_L: Log
10:13 PM Tom_L: Skullworks must be lower case apparently
10:14 PM Tom_L: err skunksleep
10:16 PM skunksleep: Ah. Android likes to capitalize
10:20 PM Tom_L: could add an exception i suppose
10:37 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/X_Axis_mounted.jpg
10:37 PM Tom_L: X axis gettin there
10:37 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/X_Axis_endplate.jpg
10:48 PM XXCoder: nice
10:52 PM Tom_L: the spacers are pinned in place
10:52 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/X_Axis_dowelpins.jpg
10:53 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/X_Axis_tapped.jpg
11:03 PM XXCoder: you just measured, drilled and tapped it?
11:08 PM Crom: Just got back from watching the 2pm Saturday los Angeles production of "Somthing Rotten", outstanding show!
11:10 PM Crom: That was an easy $500 for 3 people $75+ for tickets, $100 for swag, $120 for dinner, and gas
11:12 PM Tom_L: XXCoder that's how it's done :)
11:12 PM XXCoder: heh I cant do it manually
11:14 PM Crom: The casters on all the set pieces were amazing! easy $50 each for the casters on the chairs, $120 for the bigger set pieces
11:47 PM Wolf__: you know your supposed to critique the show on acting and story not how the set pieces are assembled =p lol
11:49 PM Crom: I'm a theatre geek, I'm crew not talent. My sister is the Talent side of things, I have to make the costumes, set and props works
11:50 PM Crom: s/works/work/
11:50 PM Crom: Though is was a great show!
11:51 PM Wolf__: i get that, somewhat the same here lol
11:51 PM Crom: Costumes are amazing! 95 pairs of custom boots, of which prices start at $1000 each.
11:51 PM Wolf__: crazy lol
11:51 PM XXCoder: 95,000 bucks
11:52 PM Crom: That price is probably closer to $250,0000 now, for the road cast and cast changes