#linuxcnc Logs

Nov 27 2017

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:31 AM IchGucksLive: hi
12:34 AM XXCoder: hey hey
12:34 AM Wolf__: morning
12:34 AM XXCoder: hey wolf dash dash
12:34 AM Wolf__ is now known as Wolf_
12:34 AM Wolf_: :P
12:35 AM XXCoder: wolf@wild
12:39 AM Jymmm: XXCoder: Hi Soft Core porn Coder!
12:39 AM XXCoder: wolf wild soft porn coder
12:40 AM Jymmm: lol
12:40 AM XXCoder: jymmmmmm
12:40 AM * Wolf_ who cant code…
12:53 AM IchGucksLive: <- cand code
12:53 AM IchGucksLive: foghting with a 7219
12:53 AM IchGucksLive: on a new orenge display
12:54 AM IchGucksLive: the green and the red work but the orange dont
12:54 AM IchGucksLive: seams the oreange led does not like the 800hz frequenze
12:55 AM IchGucksLive: off for solder
01:54 AM Deejay: moin
01:55 AM XXCoder: hey
02:15 AM Deejay: hey xxcoder :)
05:12 AM jthornton: morning
05:13 AM XXCoder: yo
05:40 AM TurBoss: Hello!!
05:40 AM TurBoss: I have a hal pytoon hal comp loaded with -W
05:40 AM TurBoss: can I get its exit code to prevent it from loading
05:40 AM TurBoss: ??
05:41 AM XXCoder: nooooo
05:41 AM XXCoder: dunno
05:41 AM TurBoss: loadusr -W blah.py
05:41 AM TurBoss: hehe waxup XXCoder
05:42 AM XXCoder: not much plan go bed soon lol
05:42 AM TurBoss: haha
05:42 AM TurBoss: I just arrived work
05:42 AM TurBoss: I didn't arraive late
05:43 AM TurBoss: because I didn't sleep lol
05:43 AM XXCoder: 3 am here
07:22 AM Crom: 5:15am here... got an 8asm dental 1.5 hours away
07:56 AM TurBoss: sleep is for the weak
07:59 AM SpeedEvil: Sleep is for the week.
08:00 AM TurBoss: sleep the whole week
08:49 AM Sabotend_ is now known as Sabotender
09:40 AM jelly-home is now known as jelly
09:57 AM hazzy: morning
09:57 AM hazzy: quiet here except for the wild TorBuss
09:59 AM gregcnc: everyone trying to figure out what they were doing wednesday before the break
10:01 AM TurBoss: hello kurk
10:01 AM TurBoss: *kurt
10:01 AM hazzy: hey!
10:01 AM TurBoss: sry
10:01 AM TurBoss: wasoup?
10:02 AM hazzy: I called you TorBuss, so you can call me kurk :P
10:02 AM TurBoss: or plisskin
10:02 AM TurBoss: os snake
10:02 AM TurBoss: or both
10:02 AM TurBoss: I know, bad joke
10:02 AM hazzy: haha
10:03 AM TurBoss: how is the QT thingie?
10:03 AM TurBoss: any progress?=
10:03 AM hazzy: QT is being ignored!
10:03 AM TurBoss: :O
10:03 AM hazzy: I have been playing in the shop instead
10:03 AM TurBoss: great!
10:03 AM TurBoss: same here
10:04 AM TurBoss: well the TurBoMPG
10:04 AM TurBoss: :D
10:04 AM TurBoss: just found the teensy sources
10:04 AM TurBoss: :D
10:04 AM hazzy: Great!
10:04 AM TurBoss: I have added Magnents
10:04 AM hazzy: I like the idea of the magnets on the back
10:04 AM hazzy: :D
10:04 AM TurBoss: not mine
10:05 AM TurBoss: I steal it from heidenhain mpg
10:05 AM TurBoss: *stole
10:05 AM hazzy: AHahaha
10:05 AM TurBoss: hehe
10:06 AM TurBoss: I leaved the Gnome-shell for now
10:06 AM TurBoss: now I'm on enlightenment :O
10:07 AM TurBoss: you can switch workspace by moving the mouse to the side of the screen you wan't no go
10:07 AM hazzy: Oh, you were telling me about enlightenment
10:07 AM hazzy: it seems good
10:07 AM hazzy: I should try it
10:07 AM TurBoss: I'm not on good old e16 but well
11:21 AM IchGucksLive: hi
11:21 AM roycroft: does anyone here use one of the water cooled 80mm spindles that are ubiquitous on ebay??
11:21 AM roycroft: hello
11:22 AM roycroft: i'm trying to figure out what kind of connectors are on the things
11:22 AM IchGucksLive: yes i got 8 of them and 5 aircooled
11:22 AM IchGucksLive: 1/8 air
11:22 AM roycroft: they look like flare connectors, but the "nipple" part has a bulge in it that looks kind of like an industrial air quick-disconnect
11:22 AM roycroft: are those some kind of european flare connectors?
11:23 AM IchGucksLive: it fits 6x4mm hoses
11:23 AM roycroft: you just stick the hose in and tighten it down?
11:23 AM IchGucksLive: it might be different in the usa
11:23 AM IchGucksLive: roy you can bes shure it is a standard
11:25 AM roycroft: i called the two hydraulic equipment suppliers i use and both of them basically told me to bugger off because they refuse to deal in metric stuff
11:25 AM jdh: if you tighten too much, it cuts the hose
11:25 AM roycroft: this is a very low pressure application
11:25 AM roycroft: low enough that i probably don't need to tighten it at all
11:25 AM sync: you can probably just order two pushin pneumatic things
11:25 AM jdh: I know. I still found out
11:26 AM gloops: no way of making an adaptor - m8 tap/die - 3/8ths or something?
11:26 AM roycroft: i was hoping to just replace them with a nipple or hose barb
11:26 AM roycroft: but it's m8-1.0
11:26 AM roycroft: and i can't find any tubing or whatever with that thread pitch
11:26 AM roycroft: i had thought of taking an m8-1.0 bolt, chucking it up in the lathe, and boring the center out
11:27 AM jdh: mine came with nuts
11:27 AM roycroft: weld a nut on it
11:27 AM roycroft: i could screw it back into the spindle, and the threads that protrude would grip the hose pretty well
11:29 AM roycroft: let me see if i can take a picture of the thing
11:30 AM roycroft: i'm at work, and i'm not sure i can do it from here
11:37 AM roycroft: http://www.roycroft.us/Connector.jpeg
11:37 AM roycroft: that's what i have
11:37 AM sync: m8x1 push in is not too uncommon
11:40 AM gloops: that is a push fit fitting
11:40 AM gloops: https://www.advancedfluidsolutions.co.uk/4mm-x-m8x1-metric-thread-80-bar-hp-brass-push-fit-straight-stud-fitting-2881-p.asp
11:46 AM roycroft: i would say that it's not common around here :)
11:48 AM roycroft: so my best bet is probably to get some 6mmx4mm tubing, cut a short piece, and find some kind of quick-disconnect for one end and push the other end on that fitting
11:49 AM Loetmichel: gloops: 80 bar thru THAT? ballsy... ;)
11:50 AM roycroft: i need about 0.5 bar for this application, i suspect
11:50 AM roycroft: at most
11:50 AM gloops: Loet - hydraulics gear, easy
11:50 AM roycroft: maybe 0.1 bar
11:51 AM sync: roycroft: don't you have someone who carries festo?
11:51 AM roycroft: i've never heard of festo
11:51 AM roycroft: so i don't know
11:51 AM roycroft: i'm checking now
11:51 AM sync: wat
11:52 AM Loetmichel: gloops: the link has 80 bar in it
11:52 AM Loetmichel: thats ballsy for a pushfit fitting of that size
11:52 AM Loetmichel: even if it were made of steel
11:53 AM roycroft: looks like there is an oregon distributor
11:53 AM Loetmichel: the housing will hold... the clamps that hold the pipe in however...
11:53 AM gloops: nah that could lift a crane jib lol
11:53 AM roycroft: but not down here
11:53 AM roycroft: they're in portland
11:54 AM roycroft: and there's another distributor, but in far eastern oregon - several hours away
11:55 AM gloops: the chinese will not make specific components for cnc, theyre mainly taken from bigger industries, standard fittings
11:55 AM roycroft: there are a half dozen hydraulic equipment shops in eugene though
11:55 AM roycroft: i'll try to find one that is not militantly anti-metric
11:55 AM gloops: i didnt realise this was the state of affairs in the USA roy
11:56 AM roycroft: when i called the first one i said i'm looking for an adapter with m8-1 threads on the spindle side and was told "we don't carry anything metric - this is america!"
11:56 AM roycroft: the second one just said "we don't have metric parts"
11:57 AM gloops: i still naturally think in inches, like ill say - i need a piece of wood about 5 feet long, or 4 inch nails, but when it comes to working - metric is so much easier
11:57 AM djdelorie: ask for an 0.3149 inch by 25.4 TPI instead? Hey, it's MURICA.
11:58 AM roycroft: trump has made faux jingoism fashionable, sadlyl
11:58 AM roycroft: sadly
11:58 AM djdelorie: SAD!ly
11:58 AM roycroft: a year ago the first supplier would probably have just said "we don't stock metric parts"
11:58 AM * djdelorie does more metric threading on his lathe than imperial, despite having to make plastic gears to do so
11:59 AM roycroft: although in honesty i've always encountered some anti-metric bias
11:59 AM roycroft: i can't put it all on trumpism
11:59 AM roycroft: anyway, this could devolve into a political discussion, and that's not my intent
12:00 PM roycroft: i'm just frustrated that i am having trouble finding parts
12:00 PM djdelorie: around here you can find inch, letter, and wire drills anywhere, but metric? HA!
12:00 PM roycroft: thankful that my part was finally identified though :)
12:00 PM roycroft: i've never seen those push connectors before
12:01 PM miss0r: 'round here the only imperial stuff I come across are for pipe fittings
12:01 PM roycroft: i have some threaded inserts for mdf, and one size (3/8") requires a 12mm bore
12:01 PM miss0r: :]
12:01 PM roycroft: i was at rockler (a woodworker supplier) yesterday, and they had 12mm brad point drill bits in stock
12:01 PM roycroft: that was nice
12:02 PM roycroft: i thought that might be a tough thing to find
12:02 PM * miss0r looks in the 12mm drill drawer
12:02 PM roycroft: oddly, 12mm was the smallest metric brad point bit they had, although they had american customary drills going down to 1/16"
12:02 PM miss0r: yep, i'm down to 7-8 now
12:03 PM roycroft: and the 12mm bit cost me $9.99, while the 7/16" bit was only $6
12:03 PM roycroft: i think there's a bit of metric tax on that - 12mm isn't that much bigger than 7/16"
12:03 PM * miss0r has to use google calculator every time any of you guys use any imperial measurement :)
12:03 PM roycroft: this is why i machine in american customary units, because tooling is so much cheaper than metric
12:04 PM miss0r: That makes sense
12:04 PM sync: miss0r: interestingly 1" piping does not have 1" ID
12:04 PM roycroft: it's nominally sized
12:05 PM roycroft: tubing is actual size, but pipe is nominal
12:05 PM miss0r: Lucky for me 90% of all the tungsten carbide tooling I have is donated from a friend of mine; where he works they discard all tools with a cutting time of 125 minuts. And they also do alot of plastics. So he just keeps the 'unworn' ones and gives them to me :]
12:05 PM roycroft: and the inner diameter of pipe varies by pipe grade
12:05 PM * miss0r is absolutly lost with imperial.
12:06 PM roycroft: i wish we would just get over it
12:06 PM miss0r: even the pipes. I usualy bring the part I need to replace/fit something to with me to the hardware store to see what fits :)
12:06 PM roycroft: we've legally adopted metric measurements twice now - in the 1870s and in the 1970s
12:06 PM * djdelorie just assumes I need both metric and imperial everything now...
12:07 PM roycroft: in the 1870s the meter was adopted as our standard unit of length, and a standard meter bar brought over from france
12:07 PM sync: roycroft: the problem with 1" pipe is that it was 1" at some point in the 1800s
12:07 PM sync: but now the wall can be made much thinner
12:07 PM sync: so it is much larger on the inside
12:07 PM roycroft: the foot was defined as 0.3048m
12:07 PM miss0r: lol
12:08 PM roycroft: so legally the us has been metric for almost 150 years
12:08 PM miss0r: Damnit! I do this all the time. I go to the shop to do something serious, I fire up the computer to listen to some music, and end up talking in here about nothing. I'm the master of procrastination
12:08 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: ... just that nobody uses it;-)
12:08 PM roycroft: actually that's not the case, loetmichel
12:08 PM roycroft: lay people do not use it
12:09 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: nope. second place to me ;)
12:09 PM djdelorie: Loetmichel: except for drugs and soda
12:09 PM roycroft: politicians complain that forcing industry to use it would be too expensive
12:09 PM roycroft: but the fact is, industry use both
12:09 PM miss0r: Loetmichel: I would debate the issue with you, but I just found an interresting youtube video :)
12:09 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: cant be more expensive than a lost satellite for example :-)
12:09 PM roycroft: and it's way more expensive to have to tool in metric and american customary than to just switch everything to metric
12:09 PM sync: well, a lot of the taxpayer funded stuff is metric
12:10 PM roycroft: industry use metric whenever they can get away with it
12:10 PM sync: well, you don't really have to tool for both, cutter compensation ftw
12:10 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: IIRC any serious american mechanic has 2 sets of tools anyways.
12:10 PM roycroft: it's moronic to build a cart for people in the us that uses american customary fasteners and have to switch to metric fasteners to ship the exact same cart to canada or mexico
12:11 PM roycroft: not just serious mechanics
12:11 PM djdelorie: robots don't care if you want 1.467 inches or 37.26 mm
12:11 PM roycroft: backyard mechanics as well
12:11 PM sync: I have two sets of most stuff as well
12:11 PM roycroft: our two largest trading partners are canada and mexico
12:11 PM sync: because those overseas people keep using those strange dimensions
12:11 PM roycroft: and heaps of auto parts are made in those countries and imported into the us
12:11 PM roycroft: 10% of them are metric
12:11 PM djdelorie: roycroft: yeah, I have full sets of metric tools because I'm rebuilding a Japanese motorcycle...
12:11 PM roycroft: so go wrench on your "american made" ford
12:11 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: if its a german car: 100% ;)
12:11 PM roycroft: and you'll need both sets of tools
12:12 PM roycroft: sorry, i meant 100%
12:12 PM roycroft: 100% of the parts imported from canada and mexico
12:12 PM roycroft: and even the stuff made in detroit is part metric part american customary
12:12 PM sync: well, rather buy a toyota
12:12 PM sync: that is actually made in the use
12:12 PM sync: usa
12:12 PM djdelorie: although, even when I was a youth, my dad had metric tools - and I knew which metric tools could be used on worn imperial bolts ;-)
12:12 PM djdelorie: (because that's why he had them)
12:12 PM miss0r: I have a german cnc mill, with metric ballnuts, that uses imperial balls
12:12 PM roycroft: basically, any part of a vehicle that a backyard mechanic will likely never touch is metric regardless of where it's made
12:12 PM gregcnc: BMW X are made in US
12:13 PM roycroft: any part that is made outside the us is metric
12:13 PM Loetmichel: gregcnc: and belgium
12:13 PM roycroft: and only the parts that are made in the us that the average person is likely to ever touch still use american customary fasteners
12:13 PM Loetmichel: IIRC
12:13 PM miss0r: Loetmichel: yeah, but not the better half of belgium
12:13 PM gregcnc: bearing are an odd things they seem to commonly use fractional ball sizes
12:13 PM roycroft: there is no financial reason whatsoever to keep using our antiquated units
12:14 PM corecode: hi
12:14 PM roycroft: the only reason we still do so is "this is 'merica!"
12:14 PM miss0r: gregcnc: They are even listed in the spare parts manual as imperial (I can't remember the exact number, thou)
12:15 PM sync: the F48 is made in born, NL
12:15 PM roycroft: all that said, i still prefer to do building construction and other woodworking things using american customary units
12:15 PM gregcnc: metric lumber would be fun
12:15 PM roycroft: because fractions are very useful for that kind of building
12:16 PM roycroft: i'm not sure i'd want to come up with some frankenstein units like fraction centimeters
12:16 PM roycroft: 1/4cm, 1/8cm, etc.
12:17 PM gregcnc: because whole mm are not sauitable?
12:17 PM miss0r: Yeah. most of us dains actualy still use imperial when it comes to lumber. but only laymen. Like i would go buy a 4 by 6, but it is not that exact measurement in metric, which they are sold as now
12:17 PM roycroft: it's easier for a lot of woodworking operations to divide spaces in half or quarters, etc.
12:17 PM roycroft: i.e. even divisions
12:18 PM roycroft: and we don't get down to 0.001" precision as machinists do
12:18 PM miss0r: it would only be 100x150mm
12:18 PM roycroft: dimensional lumber is nominally sized these days, and has been for decades
12:19 PM sync: roycroft: you can do that in metric just fine as well
12:19 PM djdelorie: dimensional lumber has always been sized based on the rough lumber it's made from
12:19 PM roycroft: it would not be a big deal for a 2x4 equivalent to be 38mmx89mm
12:19 PM sync: but you don't say 1/4cm
12:19 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: i ever imagined a "dachlatte" when i heard the term "clue by four"... until i converted the units and realized: thats more like small floor beam than a roof batten ;)
12:19 PM sync: becasue why would you
12:19 PM roycroft: because fractional math is useful in some applications
12:20 PM sync: that depends on how you are conditioned
12:20 PM gregcnc: I got my wife using decimals for odd things like time 1.5 hours
12:20 PM miss0r: Loetmichel: yeah :)
12:20 PM miss0r: gregcnc: you savage
12:21 PM gregcnc: i had to explain to my son that some is not 1 foot and 3cm long
12:21 PM gregcnc: something
12:21 PM * djdelorie just wished so many temperature sensors weren't metric, 1 degree C is HUGE
12:21 PM roycroft: the bottom line is that it pisses me off that so many people in this country are so anti-metric that i'm having a hard time finding parts
12:21 PM gregcnc: at least they are teaching metric
12:21 PM miss0r: djdelorie: Lucky for you decimals were invented
12:21 PM roycroft: we were taught metric when i was in school in the '60s
12:22 PM roycroft: and people still don't use it at all
12:22 PM gregcnc: what kind of metric marts can you not find?
12:22 PM djdelorie: miss0r: no, I mean they're built to be accurate to 1C, no decimals reported
12:22 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: i think he means that a lot of the onewire temperature sensors have 1°C resolution
12:22 PM djdelorie: yeah, that
12:22 PM roycroft: those hydraulic parts that i was discussing at the beginnin of this conversation, the better part of an hour ago
12:22 PM djdelorie: my furnace controller needs at least eight times that resolution
12:23 PM djdelorie: but if it were degreesF it would at least be twice as good from the start
12:23 PM djdelorie: (ish)
12:23 PM roycroft: my calibrated thermometer that i use as my standard to calibrate my other brewhouse thermometers has a resolution of 0.1 degree celcius
12:23 PM miss0r: djdelorie: Odd. Are we speaking of some digital temperature sensor? You could just go get a PT-100 and convert it to whatever with as many decimals as you want
12:23 PM roycroft: just because the base unit is relatively large does not mena that there is a granularity limit
12:24 PM Loetmichel: djdelorie: use the p/n junction of a 2n222 as a diode and read in the leak current with an a/d converter
12:24 PM djdelorie: it's the converter that's limited, unless you spend more for more digits, but in my case, they're 1wire temperature sensors
12:24 PM roycroft: i use pt-100 sensors on my brewery control panel and they report to 0.1c
12:24 PM Loetmichel: bingo: pretty precise thermo sensor of your desired resolution
12:24 PM Loetmichel: ;)
12:24 PM djdelorie: and my office's mini-split. The stupid remote can only set even-numbered temperatures F
12:25 PM djdelorie: part of my brain says "probably used cheap metric temperature sensor"
12:25 PM roycroft: that's not a valid criticism of the celcius scale at all
12:25 PM roycroft: it's a criticism of the particular hardware/software you're using if the granularity is not fine enough for you
12:25 PM djdelorie: probably not
12:25 PM djdelorie: but if the base degrees were more precise, "cheap sensors" would probably be more precise too
12:25 PM roycroft: there's no such thing as a "metric temperature sensor"
12:25 PM roycroft: there are temperature sensors
12:25 PM roycroft: they push data
12:26 PM roycroft: you interpret the data however you want
12:26 PM djdelorie: when the sensor and converter are all in the same chip, and the digital data is "degrees C"... they're metric sensors.
12:26 PM roycroft: you send pulses or vary voltage
12:27 PM sync: just get a sensor that is not trash
12:27 PM djdelorie: I'm just saying, degrees F are 1.8 times more precise than degrees C as a base unit, and IMHO the C are too big as a base unit
12:27 PM gregcnc: is the error less than the display increment?
12:27 PM djdelorie: roycroft: the chip has power, ground, and digital out... nothing to vary
12:28 PM roycroft: and i say that the base unit is irrelevant :)
12:28 PM djdelorie: gregcnc: in my case, I do 64 samples and average. The noise is sufficient, and results in "more precision" (fake, but usable)
12:28 PM djdelorie: roycroft: then why do you use mm instead of meters? ;-)
12:29 PM djdelorie: why are speed limits not in m/s ?
12:29 PM roycroft: i use mm for measuring small distances, and meters or kilometers for measuring large distances
12:29 PM djdelorie: right, because mm is a more suitable "base unit" for that scale of measurement
12:29 PM roycroft: but we're not talking about an order of magnitude difference between fahrenheit and celcius
12:30 PM roycroft: they're both similar
12:30 PM roycroft: a factor of 1.8 is no big deal at all
12:30 PM djdelorie: when only a few degrees is the difference between "normal" and "you're running a temperature"
12:30 PM gregcnc: if the reading is that important why start with such ow resolution?
12:30 PM roycroft: for wondering whether to wear a jacket or not, whole celcius units are fine
12:30 PM djdelorie: or when your mini-split lets you decide between "a bit too hot" and "a bit too cold"
12:31 PM djdelorie: you start to want something a bit more granular than C
12:31 PM roycroft: and for anything even remotely precise, people report temperature to at least one decimal place
12:31 PM gregcnc: some things are poorly designed
12:31 PM djdelorie: gregcnc: it's not me that's starting out with it.
12:31 PM djdelorie: roycroft: the weather reports in F don't need the decimal place
12:32 PM djdelorie: because degrees F are already small enough
12:32 PM roycroft: but we can debate the appropriate resolution of a temperature scale all day long
12:32 PM roycroft: it doesn't matter at all
12:32 PM djdelorie: oh sure :-)
12:32 PM roycroft: you don't blame the base unit for the inaccuracy of your sensor :)
12:32 PM roycroft: you blame the crappy sensor
12:32 PM roycroft: that's not debatable
12:33 PM djdelorie: I blame that everyone buys the crappy sensor because it's the cheapest sensor, and I blame metric that the cheapest sensor resolves to 1C instead of 1F
12:33 PM gregcnc: people are cheap
12:33 PM roycroft: i don't even know that folks who buy the crappy sensor should be blamed
12:33 PM djdelorie: but then again, my daughter found me a "suitable" candy thermometer one day...
12:33 PM roycroft: if that's all they need, then why should they spend more money for a more accurate sensor?
12:34 PM djdelorie: lab grade, accurate to 0.001 degree, a hundred times more expensive than the crappy ones...
12:34 PM roycroft: at the end of the day, i blame YOU if YOU by a crappy sensor, knowing it's a crappy sensor, instead of buying the one tht YOU actually need :)
12:35 PM djdelorie: roycroft: I know it's not a big deal, except that I can't get my office to be just the right temperature because the sensor in the unit doesn't resolve far enough
12:35 PM Loetmichel: djdelorie: the only reason to resolve only whole °c instead of ##.# is the fact that the sensor chip developers were stingy and only used 8 bit for the register
12:35 PM roycroft: so what you're saying is that you want a lab grade sensor for the price of a wal*mart sensor, and it's anders celcius' fault that you can't
12:35 PM Loetmichel: and the usual range goe up to 60°C+ so there is no room for .#
12:35 PM djdelorie: if not for C the wal*mart sensors would resolve to 1F
12:36 PM Loetmichel: they wouldnt
12:36 PM Loetmichel: because even at F you wouldnt get a useful range in 8 bit
12:36 PM roycroft: again, a factor of 1.8 is not much
12:36 PM Loetmichel: thats why your split only takes even values
12:36 PM Loetmichel: they spread the range so that it fit in a single byte ;9
12:36 PM roycroft: it's the data interpreter that is the issue
12:37 PM djdelorie: if the temperature of my office varies by +- 128 degrees F, I have other problems ;-)
12:38 PM roycroft: i can barely comprehend fahrenheit units any more - i just switched them off in my mind decades ago
12:38 PM roycroft: and whole degrees celcius work fine for me for ambient temprature
12:38 PM roycroft: when i brew, i mash to 0.1c
12:39 PM roycroft: if i were forced to use fahrenheit i'd probably mash to 0.5f
12:39 PM djdelorie: F works for outdoor temperatures; outdoor temps generally range from about 0 to about 100
12:39 PM roycroft: yes, i understand why fahrenheit devised his scale the way he did
12:39 PM Loetmichel: djdelorie: depends on where you live
12:39 PM djdelorie: or where most people live
12:39 PM Loetmichel: also: irrelevant
12:40 PM Loetmichel: its an obsolete unit. PERIOD
12:40 PM djdelorie: just pointing out that both systems are arbitrary and based on something going from 0 to 100
12:40 PM roycroft: i think that celcius used better set points for 0 and 100, but again, that can be debated
12:40 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: yeah... if your car says "0°c" you know that you have to consider icy roads
12:41 PM roycroft: what is clear is that virtually the entire planet, save the usa, belize, the bahamas, micronesia, and they cayman islands, uses celcius
12:41 PM roycroft: it's stupid to be the last major holdout of an old system that the rest of the planet has rejected
12:41 PM roycroft: and it's expensive to do so
12:41 PM Loetmichel: indeeed
12:41 PM roycroft: whether, at the end of the day, fahrenheit is superior to celcius does not matter
12:42 PM roycroft: because the world has spoken
12:42 PM roycroft: and celcius works fine - there is no fundamental problem with it
12:42 PM roycroft: so why don't we just get on with joining the rest of the world?
12:42 PM Loetmichel: indeeed
12:42 PM IchGucksLive: this discussion is for centurys
12:42 PM djdelorie: because rural america is stupid and lazy
12:42 PM djdelorie: and cheap
12:42 PM roycroft: it's more than that, actually
12:43 PM roycroft: it's that "faux jingoism" that i was discussing earlier
12:43 PM roycroft: i call it faux jingoism because it's not patriotic to defy the rest of the world just because you can
12:43 PM roycroft: it's stupidity
12:44 PM djdelorie: more likely it's inertia of stuff. Too many things we already have, use the old units, and nobody wants to replace everything
12:44 PM * roycroft is on the verge of getting political again, and strains to resist
12:44 PM * djdelorie imagines the accidents that happen the week after we update all the speed limit signs
12:44 PM gregcnc: it's happening anyway
12:44 PM roycroft: go to any supermarket
12:44 PM gregcnc: people drive as fast as they want anyway signs mean nothing
12:45 PM djdelorie: sure, 2 liter bottles of soda
12:45 PM roycroft: and you'll find that most of your food now is marked in both american customary and metric units
12:45 PM roycroft: and you'll find that most of it is sold in round metric units, and weird fractional american customary units
12:46 PM IchGucksLive: im off gn8
12:46 PM djdelorie: but it's still much more difficult to buy metric tools in the usa than imperial
12:46 PM Loetmichel: djdelorie: that must the people over there then...
12:46 PM djdelorie: despite the fact that most tooling in the usa is made in china, which is metric
12:47 PM Loetmichel: here in germany we have no speed limits on >50% of the highways
12:47 PM djdelorie: WHERE ARE MY CHEAP METRIC DRILL SETS????? ;-)
12:47 PM Loetmichel: ... and we still have WAY lower accidents than your folk... ;)
12:47 PM djdelorie: at least crayons don't come in metric colors.
12:47 PM Loetmichel: even per km/mile driven
12:47 PM djdelorie: Loetmichel: yeah, but I blame the drivers, not the speedometers ;-)
12:48 PM roycroft: and there is absolutely no reason that metric tooling is more expensive here
12:48 PM roycroft: because for industrial purchasers it's not
12:48 PM roycroft: since it's used at least as much as american customary tooling in industry
12:48 PM roycroft: but for consumers, metric tooling is typically 3-4x as expensive as similar american customary tooling
12:48 PM djdelorie: I got my metric drills from mcmaster, though, not walmart or harbor freight.
12:49 PM roycroft: the reason is because vendors can get away with it
12:50 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: demand and supply
12:50 PM roycroft: no
12:50 PM Loetmichel: too much americans buying imperial
12:50 PM roycroft: there is plenty of supply
12:50 PM Loetmichel: so no demand for metric makes it expensive because storage and stockholding costs.
12:50 PM roycroft: we're still being brainwashed into thinking that working with metric units is "hard" and "expensive"
12:51 PM roycroft: when in fact it's neither
12:51 PM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/qtquickvcp/Machineface hmm so this is a better UI CNC glue guns?
12:51 PM roycroft: yet i have to deal with metric parts/fasteners/etc. on a daily basis, loetmichel
12:51 PM roycroft: for common consumer class goods
12:52 PM Loetmichel: yeah, imagine everyone else would, too
12:52 PM Loetmichel: the moment the count of metric stuff sold per day will be higher than the imperial stuff is the momemnt metric will be cheaper than imperial in the us
12:52 PM pcw_mesa: We need metric time units! 10 hours in a day
12:53 PM Loetmichel: pcw_mesa: has been tried for a few times now... doesent work.
12:53 PM djdelorie: pcw_mesa: they did that once, the base unit was the "heater" - 1/100 of a solar orbit or something
12:53 PM pcw_mesa: dump this Sumerian crap
12:53 PM CaptHindsight: metric alphabet (see SNL sketch)
12:53 PM Loetmichel: closest we come to that is the "oh sixhundred" stuff the military uses in the US
12:54 PM djdelorie: or swatch time
12:54 PM gloops: its the changeover thats the problem, ok turning metric but a lot of stuff out there is still imperial
12:54 PM Loetmichel: ... IIRC the americans still use that 12 hour am/pm crap?
12:54 PM gloops: a fitter or mechanic in the UK needed about 5 different sets of spanners in the 70s
12:54 PM roycroft: look
12:54 PM roycroft: people use metric stuff every single day in this country
12:55 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: just not enough
12:55 PM roycroft: they know that they have to have a 13mm wrench for dealing with 8mm bolts
12:55 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: unless the bolt is from japan or france, then its 14mm
12:55 PM Loetmichel: or 12. forgot which one ;)
12:56 PM miss0r: Its impressive how smooth a shitty bang bang chinesium boring head can become with a few good licks on the surface grinder
12:56 PM roycroft: but if you talk about "converting" to metric, they think all of a sudden that their 5/16" bolts all of a sudden have to be "converted" to 7.9mm bolts, and they need a 12.7mm wrench for them
12:56 PM roycroft: and all that converting is a lot of work
12:56 PM roycroft: japan is 12mm for an 8mm bolt
12:56 PM roycroft: and i don't know about the french
12:56 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: and thats THAT much complicated? (the 12.7mm wrench)
12:57 PM miss0r: roycroft: Unless its a japanese automotive bolt, then its 14 ;)
12:57 PM roycroft: loetmichel: it's not complicated at all
12:57 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: I think you seriously overestimate uhmericans
12:57 PM roycroft: but what people need to understand is that "converting" to metric requires no unit conversions at all
12:57 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: they are people, arent they?
12:58 PM roycroft: when we convert to metric, you keep your old 1/2" wrench to use on your old 5/16" bolts
12:58 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: depends on your definition
12:58 PM Loetmichel: cant all be the proverbial redneck, can they?
12:58 PM roycroft: but that part that you have that takes 5/16" bolts will use 8mm bolts from now on
12:58 PM roycroft: that's all there is to it
12:58 PM roycroft: you don't "convert" anything
12:58 PM roycroft: you just start using the other stuff
12:59 PM roycroft: when canada converted to metric they eased it in pretty well
12:59 PM roycroft: markets were at first required to display weights on their scales in both pounds and kg
12:59 PM sync: pcw_mesa: metric time existed
12:59 PM sync: but eeeehhh
01:00 PM roycroft: after a period of time (years, not weeks or months), kg was required to be the primary display, but pounds were still permitted
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: ~25% tend to believe anything they are repeatedly told over time
01:00 PM roycroft: after another period of time it was illegal to display weights in pounds
01:00 PM pcw_mesa: base 12 is nicer I think we should start over
01:00 PM roycroft: people got used to it
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: doesn't matter how ridiculous it is
01:00 PM roycroft: i lived right by the border when canada were converting ot metric
01:00 PM jdh: we could graft extra thumbs next to pinky
01:00 PM gloops: a 15mm spanner would cost you 3 shillings and sixpence in 1971 UK
01:00 PM roycroft: there was a lot of whining
01:01 PM roycroft: but people dealt with it
01:01 PM roycroft: yeah, the currency conversion in the uk was a bigger deal than the metrification of other units there
01:01 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: I wish we had shillings and stones here
01:01 PM djdelorie: millishillings
01:01 PM gloops: 20 shillings in 1 pound, 12 pennies in a shilling - very logical way to count money
01:02 PM roycroft: but the uk survived it
01:02 PM djdelorie: at least the usa has metric money
01:02 PM CaptHindsight: the US tried to convert to Metric in the 70's and it didn't work
01:02 PM CaptHindsight: see History
01:02 PM sync: they should convert to fractional dollars
01:02 PM roycroft: and don't forget - 21 shillings to a guinea (for a while)
01:03 PM roycroft: the us did not try
01:03 PM FinboySlick: CaptHindsight: But in the 70s, the US still had testosterone... The situation would be different today ;)
01:03 PM roycroft: as i said earlier, we officially adopted metric meaurements in the 1870s and again in the 1970s (the second time was a reaffirmation of the first time)
01:03 PM roycroft: but never did anything about it
01:03 PM gloops: yes guineas were popular for many transactions
01:03 PM CaptHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Metric_Board
01:04 PM roycroft: a bunch of "100km to ..." road signs were put up on the freeways in the 1970s
01:04 PM roycroft: but that's about as far as we got
01:04 PM roycroft: the federal government needs to regulate the conversion or it will never happen
01:04 PM CaptHindsight: The Great "President Ronald Reagan abolished it"
01:04 PM gloops: our speed limits are still in miles
01:04 PM roycroft: which means it will never happen
01:04 PM gloops: beer is still in pints but shots are metric
01:04 PM roycroft: because our govenrment don't listen to the people nor to industry
01:04 PM roycroft: they just do what they want
01:05 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENZUb77cibY
01:06 PM CaptHindsight: I expect containers to stop having to label weights and volumes on consumer items since it will impact profit margins
01:06 PM roycroft: there's already a big push to remove ingredients from food
01:06 PM roycroft: and origin information
01:06 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: that not a good bartender, look for another that free pours
01:07 PM roycroft: and a HUGE push not to require that gmo foods be labeled as such, but that non-gmo foods may not be labeled as non-gmo
01:08 PM CaptHindsight: if going metric means more money for the megacorps then we'd be metric by Wednesday
01:08 PM roycroft: the huge agribusinesses claim that if a company is allowed to label its food "does not contain gmos", even if verified that it does not, it's a smear on gmo food, and should not be allowed
01:08 PM roycroft: but it does, capthindsight
01:08 PM roycroft: this is one area where republicans do not listen to their masters
01:08 PM roycroft: and i can't for the life of me understand why, other than it tarnishes their brand
01:09 PM gloops: changing to metric would be one step closer to becoming french
01:09 PM roycroft: it would save industry billions of dollars per year to convert to metric
01:09 PM roycroft: yes, that's it exactly, gloops
01:09 PM roycroft: the brand is all about faux jingoism
01:09 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: might be another valid reason
01:10 PM roycroft: look what's sitting in the white house because of that
01:10 PM gloops: lol
01:10 PM roycroft: dammit, i'm getting political when i swore i wouldn't
01:10 PM roycroft: it's hard not to
01:10 PM roycroft: i just want to slap that stupidity so hard
01:11 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: it could still happen here over time
01:12 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: don't beat yourself your unfortunately swimming in a sea of it
01:12 PM CaptHindsight: your/you're
01:12 PM roycroft: i'm actually encouraged - i think in another generation or so we'll probably acquiesce to the reality that it's a metric world
01:13 PM roycroft: i'll be long dead by then, but i'm pretty confident it will happen
01:13 PM roycroft: actually, i might be stubborn enough to survive for another generation
01:14 PM roycroft: so mayhap i'll see the day when we actually become a defacto metric nation
01:16 PM gloops: the trick is to probably change the important stuff like rulers and micrometers - but keep the everyday cultural weights and measures for beer and cheese and so on
01:16 PM roycroft: when i was growing up i was constantly referred to as "mr spock" by my family
01:16 PM roycroft: and it was used as a term of derision
01:16 PM roycroft: so i guess i've been swimming in it all my life
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: I'm a recovering retard myself
01:18 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: you realize that a generation is only ~30 years?
01:18 PM CaptHindsight: metric generation?
01:19 PM roycroft: it really sucked being the son of teachers (my father was a school district superintendent) and constantly put down for being smart and questioning the world
01:19 PM roycroft: yes, loetmichel
01:19 PM roycroft: and there's no guarantee that i'll last another 30 years
01:19 PM roycroft: i'm not a young whippersnapper any more
01:19 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: i doubt i will last another 30... and i am only 48 ;)
01:20 PM roycroft: i predate the space age
01:20 PM Loetmichel: but you'll never know, my great-grandma did three digits.
01:21 PM roycroft: we have 3+ more years of trump scheduled, so many opportunities for me to have a massive heart attack soon
01:21 PM CaptHindsight: it will only get dumber before it gets better
01:22 PM roycroft: i thought we had hit bottom
01:22 PM CaptHindsight: like a junkie, we haven't hit rock bottom yet
01:22 PM roycroft: but now i'm not sure there is a floor
01:22 PM CaptHindsight: I'm no longer surprised by how low we can go
01:23 PM roycroft: and it's not just trump and his ilk
01:23 PM roycroft: it's all of them
01:23 PM roycroft: democrats are the party of women
01:23 PM roycroft: so they say
01:23 PM CaptHindsight: the pageantry of stupidity
01:23 PM CaptHindsight: it's not even political
01:23 PM roycroft: yet they want to give al franken and john conyers passes
01:23 PM Loetmichel: [20:21] <roycroft> we have 3+ more years of trump scheduled, so many opportunities for me to have a massive heart attack soon <- ouch... thats hard.
01:24 PM roycroft: i guess it's ok for a politician to molest women if he votes right
01:24 PM miss0r: I like trump - I've never been so interrested in seeing what the american president comes up with next :)
01:25 PM CaptHindsight: miss0r: doesn't it get boring after a while?
01:25 PM roycroft: yeah, you'll really like him if he starts wwiii because of name-calling
01:26 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: Sure. but I don't have a direct feed of any kind. I just hear about it when he does something realy stupid
01:26 PM miss0r: so yeah.. it gets old fast
01:26 PM roycroft: having someone with the maturity and mentality of a 4-year-old in charge of the world's largest nuclear arsenal should give anyone pause
01:26 PM CaptHindsight: miss0r: so about every day? :)
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: don't get too worked up over it...
01:27 PM roycroft: i try not to
01:27 PM roycroft: but it's difficult
01:27 PM miss0r: roycroft: but he is good for industry. the industry for long shelf life food/survival kits haven't had a field day like this since the cuban crisis
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: there are some adults around that stand between him and things like that
01:27 PM roycroft: not necessarily
01:27 PM roycroft: and legally, not at all
01:28 PM CaptHindsight: it's interesting to see interviews of trump from the 80-90's
01:28 PM CaptHindsight: I wonder what happened to him in the 90's?
01:28 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: Thoes people are called support teachers
01:28 PM roycroft: there is no legal mechanism to refuse an order by the president to launch a nuclear attack
01:28 PM CaptHindsight: you see a big shift in his fears and thinking
01:28 PM roycroft: the best that can legally be done is to remove him from office via the 25th amendment before he issues the order
01:29 PM miss0r: I hope he keeps someone around with a "clue by four" to whack him with in case of a meltdown
01:29 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: he's currently a useful idiot, so he stays
01:29 PM roycroft: and there is no assurance that the pentagon would intervene should he issue the order
01:29 PM * miss0r starts stockpiling food for the falloutshelter... I should start building one...
01:29 PM roycroft: miss0r: the problem is that there's no legal means to do it once the order is given
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: it's mostly negative attention, the media is to blame for encouraging it...
01:30 PM miss0r: roycroft: I had no idea... That actualy makes me somewhat uneasy..
01:30 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Axis-CNC-Milling-machine-Router-Bench-top-mounted-used/122823423688?
01:30 PM gregcnc: miss0r how deep can you dig over there?
01:30 PM roycroft: there is talk in the congress about passing legislation that would require the president to get congress to declare ware bofore a preemptive launch can be ordered
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: then again if people didn't pay attention the adverts would slow
01:30 PM miss0r: gregcnc: given enough time and money... china
01:30 PM roycroft: but as of right now the law says that if the president orders it the nukes get deployed
01:30 PM roycroft: and there is no way to stop him
01:31 PM gregcnc: did russia come clean about the radiation leak?
01:31 PM roycroft: period
01:31 PM gloops: old trump wont nuke anyone i dont think
01:31 PM roycroft: he could order an attack on canada and legally the military would be required to carry out the order
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: the Russians never lie! :)
01:31 PM miss0r: roycroft: Which is an excellent idea as long as an adult mind with the ability to contemplate the implications of such a strike is in power its okay
01:32 PM miss0r: but right now... It seems the system has failed
01:32 PM roycroft: gloops: when the president got his first intelligence briefing after the election he asked "if we have all these nucler weapons why can't i use them?"
01:32 PM miss0r: roycroft: what are your sources?
01:32 PM roycroft: he actually askd that - it's been verified by several people who were in the room with him
01:33 PM * miss0r just got a warm and fuzzy feeling inside - not the good kind
01:33 PM roycroft: oh, it was before the election, not after
01:34 PM miss0r: hey trump... step down and let someone who knows what he7she is doing to take over!
01:34 PM gloops: very cheap as it stands - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bridgeport-series-1-MD1-CNC-Milling-Machine/152798020652?
01:34 PM * miss0r is assuming the president & NSA is reading in by now
01:34 PM roycroft: the "failing" new york times reported it in august of 2016
01:34 PM * roycroft assumes they're always reading
01:34 PM gloops: in a way Trumps 'peace by strength' approach may be better
01:35 PM gloops: he isnt going to randomly nuke someone - but your enemies are now aware that you will deal with any stupid stuff by them
01:36 PM miss0r: history shows us all empires has to fall at some point. perhaps its time to hit the reset button. And see what sort of society will rise from the ashes...
01:36 PM gloops: miss0r history shows - another empire
01:36 PM gregcnc: lol https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/27/sodastream-concentrate-mix-own-champagne/
01:36 PM miss0r: yeah. You may call me king
01:36 PM roycroft: the "if we have them why can't we use them" quote is from an unnamed source, but reported by morning joe
01:37 PM roycroft: who is a pretty reputable reporter
01:37 PM roycroft: however, he did ask in a televised town hall why we can't use nukes against isil if they attack us
01:38 PM miss0r: I grant you, he is a scary character
01:38 PM miss0r: I've always wanted a fallout shelter anyway.
01:39 PM miss0r: The misses even gave me permission to build one - Knowing I would never get around to it
01:39 PM gloops: do you really want to survive?#
01:39 PM roycroft: and that was his usual doublespeak bullshit
01:40 PM miss0r: for one reason, actualy: I have a son
01:40 PM roycroft: "Somebody hits us within ISIS, you wouldn't fight back with a nuke? ... Look, nuclear should be off the table. But would there be a time when it could be used, possibly, possibly?"
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: hhmm that gives me an idea for beer, not real beer but grain alcohol beverages
01:40 PM roycroft: "why would we not nuke someone? of course, we shouldn't nuke anyone, but maybe we should"
01:41 PM roycroft: http://info.msnbc.com/_news/2016/03/30/35330907-full-transcript-msnbc-town-hall-with-donald-trump-moderated-by-chris-matthews?lite
01:41 PM roycroft: there
01:41 PM roycroft: is the full transcript, if you want more context
01:41 PM roycroft: Matthews: "How about Europe? We won't use it in Europe?"
01:41 PM roycroft: Trump: " I -- I'm not going to take it off the table."
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: flavor your own beer to taste, shit bitter, chocolate coffee stout, etc etc
01:42 PM roycroft: Matthews: "You might use it in Europe?"
01:42 PM gregcnc: catphindsight DIY lime-a-rita?
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: yeah
01:42 PM roycroft: Trump: "No, I don't think so. But I'm not taking..."
01:42 PM miss0r: roycroft: ...
01:42 PM roycroft: Matthews: "Well, just say it. "I will never use a nuclear weapon in Europe."
01:42 PM gloops: there was an air raid shelter near me in the 80s, away from the village, think it was built for the munitions workers in a factory, underground, big steel tank with floorboards in it, i had always had that in mind should the 3 minute warning siren go, but its buried now
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: it needs an app
01:42 PM roycroft: Trump: "I am not -- I am not taking cards off the table."
01:43 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: and you control your mix with your phone
01:43 PM roycroft: so our president refuses to say that he categorically will not use nuclear weapons in europe
01:44 PM gregcnc: I've been meaning to get over to mitsua and find some carbonated coffee
01:44 PM miss0r: someone should just remove him
01:44 PM roycroft: hopefully, miss0r, you understand a bit better now why i'm so concerned about this president
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: was just there Saturday
01:44 PM miss0r: I know that they cant but still
01:44 PM miss0r: roycroft: I get it. but theres nothing much I can do about it anyway
01:45 PM roycroft: yeah, the worrying and the stress don't change anything
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: https://www.beveragedaily.com/Article/2012/07/04/PepsiCo-boosts-Japanese-Pepsi-with-extra-caffeine
01:46 PM gregcnc: a bar version of the magic soda machine https://www.coca-colafreestyle.com/
01:46 PM roycroft: i wish i could live by the serenity prayer that the 12 step programs use (most 12 step stuff is a bunch of religious indoctriation, but their serentity prayer is ok)
01:46 PM nos: I'm getting "Bad character '[' used" in my subprogram no matter what I do. Please help. :( Link: https://gist.github.com/ganzuul/42f46089babed4ee4dced9ead8ae5976
01:46 PM roycroft: the bit about change the things i can change, and accept the things i cannot change
01:46 PM gregcnc: I get shaky after a dunkin coffee, that might kill me
01:46 PM roycroft: or however it goes
01:46 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: I've noticed that bartenders are getting worse..
01:47 PM miss0r: indeed
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: no personality, they just pout drinks into measured glasses
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: so it might as well be robots
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: pout/pour
01:48 PM gregcnc: I would think that the bar atmosphere has changed as it seem binge drinking is the thing
01:48 PM roycroft: binge drinking is getting out of hand in places
01:48 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: yeah, not pubs where you might have a conversation
01:48 PM gloops: line 16 ok nos?
01:48 PM nos: hmm
01:49 PM CaptHindsight: maybe the signs should just read "Get Shitfaced Here"
01:49 PM cradek: nos: in line 13 you don't want the []
01:49 PM nos: gloops: Commenting it out doesn't help...
01:50 PM nos: cradek: That did... something!
01:51 PM miss0r: something.. that is good
01:52 PM nos: Now I get "Unknown word starting with f"
01:52 PM cradek: assignment (=) is not an "operator" like + or MOD so it doesn't go inside []
01:52 PM nos: Near line 24 again
01:52 PM nos: ah
01:53 PM cradek: your if/endif are missing their O words
01:53 PM nos: maybe I need one of
01:53 PM nos: yeah
01:54 PM cradek: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/o-code.html#ocode:conditional
01:54 PM miss0r: I'm off for tonight. see you guys around
01:54 PM nos: argh, no incremental W and U axii...
01:55 PM cradek: nope those are actual full axes
01:55 PM cradek: g91 g1 z-0.1
01:56 PM nos: \o/
01:57 PM nos: ...aaand Axis sim crashed.
01:58 PM nos: I probably put an endless loop somewhere...
02:00 PM nos: rigt, abs[]
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: QtQuickVcp vs GTK+
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: hazzy: ^^
02:10 PM Tom_L: happy monday
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: well it's really GTK+ vs Qt
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: so nevermind
02:12 PM Tom_L: ever hear of a Chevalier mill?
02:12 PM hazzy: have not had a chance to play with QtQuickVcp much, but I think it has promise.
02:12 PM gloops: sound rather distinguished Tom..
02:13 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.chevalierusa.com/
02:13 PM hazzy: I like GTK+ better than Qt, but unfortunately GTK+ is not reliable so I think Qt is the only option until GTK+ gets over the growing pains
02:14 PM hazzy: Tom_L: We have 6 Chevalier knee mills, they are pretty decent machines
02:14 PM Tom_L: never heard of em
02:14 PM hazzy: Not as accurate as a BP but they have more brawn
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: http://www.chevaliertw.com/company-history.html
02:14 PM Tom_L: guy i talked to today has one he wants to get rid of
02:14 PM gloops: http://www.chevalierusa.com/
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: I almost got on on CL
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: was missing a few parts
02:15 PM Tom_L: this one must be old because it's not enclosed
02:15 PM Tom_L: just splash guards
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I would not shy away if the price is right
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: you're going to convert it at some point anyway
02:16 PM Tom_L: i wasn't looking for one, we were just shootin the bull
02:16 PM Tom_L: and he mentioned it
02:22 PM gloops: time to pay him a visit Tom - for some reason other than looking at the mill
02:29 PM gloops: this is an idea - using treadmill motor - with the speed readout off the exercise machine lol https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/horizontal-milling-machine/253275999556?
02:29 PM gloops: wonder what accuracy that has
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: hazzy: https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/emc-users/thread/e5851ded77d8b51a934b1832fdb6e72b%40machinekoder.com/#msg36131271
02:32 PM TurBoss: hello
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: hazzy: does this just boil down to a preference for Qt and "newer is better"?
02:33 PM TurBoss: when you guys read a potentiometer, how do smooth reads
02:33 PM TurBoss: hardware software both?
02:33 PM TurBoss: and what in any cas?
02:33 PM TurBoss: *case
02:34 PM TurBoss: -what +how
02:35 PM CaptHindsight: TurBoss: read with an ADC (analog to digital converter)?
02:35 PM TurBoss: yes adc from teensy ++ 2.0
02:35 PM TurBoss: 10bit
02:35 PM TurBoss: oh sekl
02:35 PM TurBoss: I'll check
02:35 PM CaptHindsight: sample faster than you can turn it
02:36 PM TurBoss: its on the loop
02:36 PM CaptHindsight: ah ok, I'm using a Teensy to read temp probes
02:36 PM TurBoss: at max speed
02:36 PM TurBoss: nono
02:36 PM TurBoss: ah sorry
02:36 PM TurBoss: yes
02:36 PM TurBoss: I have a 10k pot wired to teh teensy
02:36 PM TurBoss: and read values dance
02:36 PM TurBoss: by 1 or 3
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: sample at least 2X the highest frequency you want to convert
02:37 PM TurBoss: with frecuency what do you mean? the cpu mhz or what?
02:37 PM TurBoss: hehe
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: then you also need a low pass filter before the ADC to insure that you aren't sampling higher frequencies
02:38 PM TurBoss: aha
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: sampling frequency and the frequency of the analog signal
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog-to-digital_converter
02:39 PM CaptHindsight: you can read about theory for days
02:39 PM TurBoss: i see
02:39 PM TurBoss: Aliasing seems what I need
02:40 PM CaptHindsight: anti-aliasing
02:40 PM CaptHindsight: the google has lots of videos and endless white papers
02:40 PM TurBoss: :)
02:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjmcAE1L6OQ might be a good start
02:43 PM TurBoss: Thanks
02:43 PM CaptHindsight: you'll get it
02:44 PM CaptHindsight: your next class will be oversampling and then using a digital filter :)
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: TurBoss: are you using a Teensy with LCNC?
02:45 PM TurBoss: yes
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/tutorial4.html
02:45 PM TurBoss: is my mpg
02:46 PM CaptHindsight: have you seen HAL Teensy https://github.com/SebKuzminsky/linuxcnc-hal-teensy
02:46 PM TurBoss: yes I saw
02:47 PM CaptHindsight: but it's for Teensy 3.x
02:48 PM TurBoss: it does float to 4byte?
02:48 PM TurBoss: I should use it
02:48 PM TurBoss: so send floats over serial
02:49 PM TurBoss: just found this
02:49 PM TurBoss: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Smoothing
02:49 PM TurBoss: is that oversampling?
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: "Reads repeatedly from an analog input, calculating a running average and
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: printing it to the computer. Keeps ten readings in an array and continually averages them."
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: we used to call this a running average
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: yes, oversample and then average
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: only works if you sample at >2x the highest analog frequency
02:57 PM CaptHindsight: https://training.ti.com/jp/ti-precision-labs-adcs-bandwidth-vs-frequency if you're interested in how to subsample
03:13 PM gloops: £1 lathe - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SL4-Mori-Seiki-Lathe-Spares-Or-Repair/162772206377?
03:16 PM gloops: ahh sorry didnt see that
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: never mind it's an auction
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: was thinking set price on listing and then real price later
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: but thats interesting...
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: sell it in parts or whole, work it out based on interest
03:18 PM gloops: 30 HP motor - total weight 12000lbs, thought it was going cheap heh
03:19 PM CaptHindsight: whats the scrap value?
03:19 PM CaptHindsight: i think it's around 4 cents per lb here now
03:20 PM gloops: its up a bit here, about £60 a metric tonne
03:20 PM gloops: about £350
03:21 PM andypugh: Bother!
03:21 PM andypugh: I was trying to stop my monitor humming, and was playing with refresh rates
03:22 PM andypugh: Now I have a completely blank monitor. I rebooted, it goes back to that mode. Any cunning suggestions?
03:22 PM gloops: restore to factory settings?
03:23 PM andypugh: I was rather hoping to keep the data on the machine
03:23 PM gloops: i mean just the monitor, if its an option
03:24 PM CaptHindsight: flush whatever file Debian uses to store the monitor settings
03:24 PM andypugh: I set the display values in the OS, not on the moniitor
03:24 PM CaptHindsight: frustrating with some distros
03:24 PM gloops: ah ok
03:25 PM andypugh: First I would need to figure out how to log in with something visible on the screen
03:25 PM MarcelineVQ: can you ssh in?
03:25 PM _methods: debian?
03:26 PM _methods: ah yeah ssh would be the way to go
03:26 PM CaptHindsight: I assumed he is using Debian
03:26 PM _methods: well time to head home
03:28 PM MarcelineVQ: the debian on the linuxcnc site came with ssh all set up already
03:29 PM andypugh: good call.
03:29 PM andypugh: Now, what file do I delete…
03:31 PM CaptHindsight: does Debian use xrandr?
03:33 PM CaptHindsight: http://pkg-xorg.alioth.debian.org/howto/use-xrandr.html
03:37 PM andypugh: cd /usr/share/
03:38 PM andypugh: oops, wrong window
03:40 PM XXCoder: hey in least its not cd /home/porn/goat/hardcore/
03:41 PM andypugh: I am not sure xrandr will work with ssh. It finds the local screen settings
03:46 PM andypugh: Aha! Success using ideas from here: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=75676
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: did xrandr work or did you delte somtihng in /home/.config?
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: <--- typing with one finger
03:50 PM XXCoder: dang 2010 to 2014
04:16 PM Deejay: gn8
04:31 PM MarcelineVQ: gosh, our big box store here has male to male brass garden hose connectors for $20. that is about the material cost to make it from solid stock. there's some on amazon for 6$ luckily, but wow
04:32 PM MarcelineVQ: solid stock you buy at that size I mean, surely it's a bit cheaper if you werer buying a resaonable length ehe
04:33 PM Tom_L: https://www.grainger.com/product/4KG82?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!166588899559!!!g!82166687037!&ef_id=WYkTJwAAAGow10-c:20171127223232:s&kwid=productads-adid^166588899559-device^c-plaid^82166687037-sku^4KG82-adType^PLA
04:33 PM Tom_L: solid stock
04:33 PM MarcelineVQ: I should get a granger account :X
04:33 PM MarcelineVQ: we have acklands-granger here but it's the same thing afaik
04:34 PM Tom_L: https://www.piecoweb.com/us/garden-hose-brass-fittings-thread-to-thread-adapter-3-4-id-x-3-4-11-1-2-nh-thread-size-35255?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2YCNzOff1wIVCpV-Ch1RZg8EEAQYBSABEgKVAfD_BwE
04:34 PM Tom_L: mpt inside too
04:34 PM MarcelineVQ: you sure have a lot of options in the states :>
04:34 PM hazzy: MarcelineVQ: It is getting very hard to fund good garden hose fittings, I bet the one you got on Amazon are not solid brass, but plated Al, which only last a few weeks in my experience
04:35 PM Tom_L: i go to the rubber belt & hose supply and have them made
04:35 PM Tom_L: they last forever
04:35 PM hazzy: HF has some of the best hose fittings, as they don't mind selling stuff that has lead in it
04:37 PM hazzy: I think that is the reason all the big box stores sell the plated Al stuff, to avoid the lead that is in most of the brass ones
04:37 PM gloops: i dont mind buying stuff that has lead in it
04:37 PM MarcelineVQ: it only needs to connect once, so as long as it doens't leak over time, I'm atually using it to connect a wash basin to an old clothes washer spot. I'm conneting from 1/2 mip (faucet ends) to 3/4 fht so I need a 1/2 fip to 3/4 mht. managed to find one of those in my bins, an another that is 1/2 fip to 3/4 fht, so I need a double 3/4 mht
04:39 PM hazzy: gloops: Neither to I, I go out of my way to by stuff with lead because it lasts, and I don't drink from the hose that often, hehe
04:39 PM gloops: lol hazzy
04:40 PM MarcelineVQ: it's for parts washing so the material doesn't matter as much as the price, spending 60$ to connect a 100$ basin isn't joyful to me hehe
04:40 PM gloops: i dont even think lead is that harmful in those quantities anywa
04:40 PM hazzy: But the lead might explain some things about me! :D
04:44 PM MarcelineVQ: mostly I'm just dumbfounded at the prices you pay in a big chain hardware store, and at the way they stock things so that you need to buy 2-3 adapters instead of a single connector with the right sizes at each end, very tricky business
04:44 PM Tom_L: revised my Z axis support a bit so i can adjust it a bit instead of having it welded solid: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Z_Upright_Support.jpg
04:44 PM MarcelineVQ: thanks for reminding me of granger though, I should see if you need 'a business' to make an account there
04:44 PM Tom_L: you do
04:45 PM roycroft: those people piss me off
04:45 PM roycroft: they won't sell to me because i don't have a tax exempt number
04:45 PM roycroft: i don't have a tax exempt number because there is no sales tax in oregon
04:45 PM roycroft: so the state has no need to issue tax exempt numbers
04:46 PM roycroft: it's something that's pissed me off about grainger for a long time
04:46 PM Tom_L: make one up
04:46 PM roycroft: and now i find that they are selling stuff on ebay
04:46 PM MarcelineVQ: roycroft: does granger operate in oregon or just ship there?
04:46 PM roycroft: there are two graingers in my town
04:46 PM roycroft: neither of which will sell to me
04:46 PM roycroft: because corporate won't process my paperwork
04:46 PM MarcelineVQ: that's really really weird that they wouldn't understand the situation then
04:46 PM MarcelineVQ: I mean, someone's buying from them,
04:46 PM roycroft: i'm not seriously pissed off about it though, because grainger is not a mainstream supplier for sane people
04:47 PM roycroft: it's an "omg i need this and i need this NOW!" emergenicy supplier
04:47 PM MarcelineVQ: oh, hehe, what is for you?
04:47 PM roycroft: if you can wait a day or to there are a lot of places cheaper than grainger
04:47 PM roycroft: it's a "you don't exist" supplier for me :)
04:47 PM roycroft: fortunately i rarely have dire emergencies
04:48 PM roycroft: and if i want a one-stop place for stuff, mcmaster have pretty much the same things as grainger for a lot better prices
04:48 PM roycroft: and even mcmaster can be high on a lot of things
04:48 PM hazzy: I won't do business Granger and fastenal, and there is now need to with Mcmaster round the corner
04:48 PM roycroft: mcmaster's website works really well
04:49 PM hazzy: It does, and there App is even good
04:49 PM roycroft: i buy stuff from them often because it's the fastest and easiest place to find stuff
04:49 PM roycroft: even though it's a little pricey
04:49 PM roycroft: time is money
04:49 PM hazzy: They are a bit pricey, but the quality is always good so it is worth it
04:50 PM roycroft: and if i can spend 5 minutes ordering something from mcmaster vs. spending an hour or two tracking it down from other vendors, it's well worth spending a little more money
04:50 PM hazzy: I miss ENCO sorely though ....
04:50 PM roycroft: mcmaster is usually 2 days ground from here
04:50 PM roycroft: yes, msc keep spamming me, begging me to buy stuff from them
04:50 PM roycroft: i've talked to them about it
04:51 PM roycroft: and they said "well, we *told* you we would honor enco pricing for you on items you've bought before for a year, and if you would just spend thosands of dollars/month on tooling we'd get you better pricing on everything ..."
04:51 PM MarcelineVQ: granger and fastenal have stores in my area, what about fastenal put you off of them hazzy?
04:51 PM roycroft: there is a fastenal store in eugene
04:51 PM hazzy: Mcmaster will bring my order by in a pickup truck, usually within an hour or so of ordering. VERY convenient
04:51 PM roycroft: but i've nevet been there that i can remember
04:52 PM gloops: keep (1 leg) fit and make a small profit at the same time https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hobbies-Treddle-Fret-Saw/272951203839?
04:52 PM MarcelineVQ: I got some deck screws from them and had a good experience but one order doesn't mean much
04:52 PM roycroft: i haven't been to their website in a long time, but my recollection is that it's rather onerous to use
04:52 PM roycroft: which would likely be why i don't buy stuff from them
04:52 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: I'd like to make that same design pretty much for turning a compost pile
04:53 PM MarcelineVQ: compost barrel in this case
04:53 PM gloops: hmm, could work, but slowly?
04:54 PM roycroft: i think msc shut down enco because too many people were buying small amounts of tooling at fair prices
04:54 PM MarcelineVQ: yeah, you don't need speed, it just needs to be mixed a little so one could ratio right down
04:54 PM roycroft: and they would have none of that
05:02 PM hazzy: MarcelineVQ: On several occasions fastenal has claimed to have something in stock on the phone, and then when I get to the store they say, "Oh, no we don't stock that, but we would be glad to order it for you, and it will be here within 14days."
05:03 PM Tom_L: yet few complaints waiting a month for something from china
05:03 PM gloops: why wouldnt the wheel and con rod drive work for cnc
05:03 PM MVQq: hazzy: nuts
05:04 PM MVQq: oops do ​I have two of these ehe
05:04 PM MarcelineVQ: :x
05:05 PM MarcelineVQ: McMaster has the part I'd like at a good price, accidently ordered it while trying to check the shipping cost doh, their order placing isn't two-stage appearantly
05:28 PM hazzy: CaptHindsight: "does this just boil down to a preference for Qt and "newer is better"?" Yes, I think pretty much. I guess it is the right direction to be going in, but I am not convinced that QtQuick is the best thing to be using.
05:30 PM hazzy: I should probably install machinekit and play with QtQuickVcp to get an idea for how it works ...
06:48 PM Chopper79: Anybody have an idea on why tar -xpf will not unpack my tar file?
06:48 PM Chopper79: tar: This does not look like a tar archive
06:48 PM Chopper79: xz: (stdin): File format not recognized
06:48 PM Chopper79: tar: Child returned status 1
06:48 PM Chopper79: tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now
06:54 PM cradek: xz: (stdin): File format not recognized
06:54 PM cradek: what's the filename and what exact command are you using?
06:56 PM Chopper79: tar -xpf linux-4.9.4.tar.xz
06:58 PM djdelorie: you need unxz to uncompress that, tar can't do it itself
06:59 PM roycroft: well, i found a hydraulic shop who were helpful
06:59 PM roycroft: they called my fittings "hose compression" fittings
06:59 PM djdelorie: are they celcius? ;-)
06:59 PM roycroft: 5/16" hose fits on them quite well
07:00 PM cradek: hm tar must've gained the ability to guess compression format based on filename, when I wasn't looking. but xz doesn't think that's an xz file. so it's probably not
07:00 PM cradek: what does `file linux-4.9.4.tar.xz' say?
07:01 PM roycroft: so we got some 1/8" npt to 5/16" hose barb adapters, and some 1/8" quick-disconnects
07:01 PM roycroft: i can make this stuff work
07:01 PM Chopper79: bad download. The file size was way small. Unpacking just fine now. Thank you
07:02 PM roycroft: and with the pressure being so low, and the hose fitting tigntly on the hose barbs already, i think i can cut the hose barbs down to one barb and use some oetiker clamps to hold the hoses on
07:02 PM roycroft: that will keep everything nice and compact
07:02 PM roycroft: seven "by our crap now" spams from harbor freight today so far :(
07:03 PM roycroft: and it's still hours 'til midnight
07:07 PM Chopper79: xconfig failed
07:07 PM Chopper79: g++ not found
07:09 PM Chopper79: can not install g++ as the error is saying that I need to fix broken packages first. Wonder what is broken?
07:10 PM Chopper79: Unable to fix which may be caused by held packages. Need to figure out what is held and how to release
07:11 PM roycroft: apt-get install -f package
07:12 PM roycroft: that will try to fix any broken/missing dependencies
07:12 PM roycroft: but no guarantees :)
07:14 PM Chopper79: I was thinking about doing that but was not sure using -f or just plain old aptitude would be better. -f just changes the priority correct?
07:15 PM roycroft: it is a "force" install
07:15 PM roycroft: and the meaning of that seems to vary
07:15 PM Chopper79: No dice
07:15 PM Chopper79: HOSTCXX scripts/kconfig/qconf.o
07:15 PM Chopper79: /bin/sh: 1: g++: not found
07:15 PM Chopper79: scripts/Makefile.host:141: recipe for target 'scripts/kconfig/qconf.o' failed
07:15 PM Chopper79: make[1]: *** [scripts/kconfig/qconf.o] Error 127
07:15 PM Chopper79: Makefile:546: recipe for target 'xconfig' failed
07:15 PM Chopper79: make: *** [xconfig] Error 2
07:17 PM roycroft: try dpkg --configure -a
07:17 PM roycroft: that will try to configure all packages that have been unpacked but not configured/installed
07:18 PM roycroft: i'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do, but it appears something is broken
07:20 PM Tom_L: worked on the Z axis mounts a bit this evening: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Z_Axis_Support2.jpg http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Z_Axis_Support3.jpg
07:22 PM Chopper79: roycroft: kernel build for Mint
07:22 PM Chopper79: going to use preempt-rt and uspace
07:23 PM roycroft: i see
07:23 PM Chopper79: can not get xconfig to launch so I can select my version and for the kernel to be fully premeptable
07:24 PM roycroft: i've never used mint
07:24 PM roycroft: i know it's debian-derived
07:24 PM roycroft: so it is probably fairly similar to debian
07:24 PM roycroft: which is the linux distro with which i am most familiar
07:24 PM Chopper79: I have it running on my matsuura retrofit, but can not get this computer to do it
07:36 PM Chopper79: did not like qt4 for some reason or another. Installed qt5 and xconfig owrked
07:48 PM Chopper79: Now I hope that the space on my ssd will not be used up while this compiles. Tried it the other night and the process chewed up 20gb of space on my ssd. Not sure why, but it did
07:53 PM roycroft: it might be wise to do the build on a general-purpose computer and the push it to the ssd
07:53 PM roycroft: that would also make upgrades safer/easier
07:55 PM Chopper79: I am in the process of making a pc for the only purpose is to do this type of work on then as you said just push it to the ssd.
07:57 PM Chopper79: Just need to get through this one and then I will have the free time and resources to make that happen.
07:58 PM Chopper79: When compiling why would the complied kernel take up that much space since the full install of mint does not? Just trying to understand is all
08:13 PM Chopper79: roycroft: if this round does not work for me then I could take the ssd over to my current running mint/lcnc install and use dd to clone one hd to the other correct?
08:15 PM Chopper79: using dd should keep my good install intact on that hdd, but just make a copy of it and all partitions, etc to the ssd. Or am I thinking about this all wrong?