#linuxcnc Logs

Nov 01 2017

01:17 AM cnc-germany: morning from germany
01:42 AM Wolfmetalfab is now known as Wolf__
02:30 AM IchGucksLive: good morning from germany
02:31 AM nullifier: HALLOOOOO GERMANY
02:32 AM IchGucksLive: ;-)
02:32 AM IchGucksLive: getting a nice sunny day here its secoind holiday
02:33 AM nullifier: -8 and snowing here
02:33 AM IchGucksLive: nice does the snow take a ski tour
02:35 AM nullifier: only on alternate saturnalias
02:36 AM IchGucksLive: i installed the lcnc on one pc and all cad cam now cloning 11more harddrives to get a schoon on linuxcnc untill wnedsday
02:37 AM IchGucksLive: school for metall trainies
02:38 AM IchGucksLive: im off later ;-)
02:54 AM RyanS: cat fell asleep waiting for the mini pc to install linux https://pasteboard.co/GRAXcWU.jpg
02:58 AM archivist: but its a warm place
02:59 AM RyanS: fanless pc does get warm actually
03:08 AM CaptHindsight: does your cat/s chew on cords and cables?
03:09 AM RyanS: no just scratches furniture and architraves
03:09 AM RyanS: just the one cat
03:32 AM Deejay: moin
03:47 AM gloops: anything doin today?
03:54 AM archivist: nuffink
03:59 AM archivist: today gloops will use roarks to see the difference in stiffness of a steel tube and one with al cast in it
03:59 AM gloops: yes im going off that idea actually
03:59 AM * archivist ducks
04:00 AM gloops: it would be better to add another tube
04:00 AM gloops: weight/strength wise
04:00 AM archivist: or larger tube size
04:00 AM gloops: yes
04:01 AM gloops: this is the trouble with chinese shipping, it allows time to over analyse everything to death
04:01 AM archivist: hehe
04:01 AM gloops: the trouble with box section is fixing to it
04:02 AM gloops: ally fill would give something to tap into
04:02 AM archivist: bolts through it etc
04:02 AM gloops: cant bolt through it
04:02 AM RyanS: uh-oh, it seems i did a rip install of the kernel , rather than deb. not sure if that's an issue..
04:03 AM archivist: yes you can, one drills all the way through
04:03 AM gloops: its no good for critical fixtures, the bolts waggle
04:03 AM archivist: you can tap the wall as well
04:03 AM gloops: as you tighten you compress the section walls
04:04 AM archivist: ream the holes then
04:04 AM gloops: could tap the walls, is 3mm thread enough?
04:04 AM archivist: internal spacers stop the compression
04:04 AM gloops: cant get spacers in 1500mm length
04:04 AM archivist: a finer thread for thin section threads
04:05 AM RyanS: how can it compress with solid aluminium?
04:05 AM gloops: the idea of tacking 4mm flat bar on would be ok but it will bend the tube
04:05 AM archivist: 1500? that is length not internal section space
04:05 AM gloops: Ryan it wont conpress the ally as you are tapping it and bolting into it
04:06 AM RyanS: what are you building?
04:06 AM gloops: archivis how are you going to get 20 spacers in position inside a 1500mm length ?
04:06 AM archivist: one at a time
04:06 AM gloops: Ryan - gantry/router etc
04:07 AM gloops: plus have to make 20 spacers - overall about 100 spacers
04:07 AM gloops: Ryan if you make anything with box sextion - do not bolt THROUGH it
04:08 AM gloops: haha - that wasnt a freudian slip
04:08 AM archivist: clockmakers have a similar problem putting all the gears between two plates, some have tools(in production) others just fiddle a while
04:08 AM gloops: what you can do is use a piece of flat bar inside the hollow section
04:08 AM archivist: you can put plates on the outside too to stop the bend
04:08 AM gloops: drilled and tapped first, slide in
04:09 AM archivist: yes that is another way
04:09 AM gloops: archivist welding the plate on one side will bend the box section in itself
04:09 AM gloops: anywhere near a box section with a welder will distort it
04:09 AM archivist: no welding needed, else normalise after welding
04:10 AM RyanS: yeah im making plasma frame with 5mm thick tube.. maybe i can tap
04:10 AM gloops: 5mm is ok
04:11 AM gloops: mine is only 3mm, it would ok - i might test it
04:12 AM RyanS: i'm welding frame then bolting the critical sections on with adjustment to get them aligned'
04:12 AM gloops: yes thats how to do it
04:12 AM gloops: think about how youre bolting
04:13 AM gloops: i drew some pics for someone but looks like i deleted then
04:14 AM gloops: if you drill right through, and you can get a spanner up the inside to the bolts, you can do it
04:15 AM gloops: put bolt through, thread two nuts and washers on the bolt inside the tube as it goes in, then tighten those against the inner wall up against the outside nuts
04:16 AM gloops: so gantry upright, you can do that
04:16 AM RyanS: could weld pads, solid bar etc onto frame, then bolt (possibly t-slot profile) onto that for the linear rails
04:16 AM gloops: you could but as a welder you should know that is likely to bend the box section
04:16 AM gloops: welding on one side
04:17 AM archivist: weld both sides to even up
04:17 AM gloops: these ally plates they all use might look a bit gimmicky - but they are actually a very good solution
04:18 AM archivist: most forget a rightangle to stiffen in the other plane
04:19 AM gloops: look when you weld a footplate to the end - bends like a banana
04:19 AM archivist: I was a welder for a while :)
04:20 AM archivist: got a welder for 21st, made birdshit, hrmpf..... jot a job as a trainee welder
04:21 AM RyanS: this one has the red box section bolted to upside down c channel I think https://www.jd2.com/p-114-mad-series-plasma-tables.aspx
04:21 AM gloops: i was a welder for a while too
04:21 AM archivist: for container sides we prebent the metal
04:22 AM archivist: then glued it clamped
04:23 AM RyanS: i hired a welder guy, so (hopefully ) we get it nice and square
04:23 AM gloops: strange things happen
04:23 AM archivist: the side rails have little protection on that
04:25 AM gloops: look at the cross beam - its welded yeah, but then machine
04:25 AM gloops: machined
04:26 AM RyanS: yeah , t-slot ill use and bolts
04:27 AM gloops: its all a lot of work - when you could use 100x50 aluminium profile
04:29 AM RyanS: yeah al profile for linear parts, steel for the frame
04:32 AM RyanS: and i think a water table will catch the sparks and you can get scrapers for the linear rail carriages.
04:32 AM gloops: well ill be building with box section soon so will report any problems lol
04:32 AM RyanS: cool
04:33 AM gloops: im having the x rails raised so above the cutting, plus shorter gantry upright
04:33 AM gloops: screws on side
04:34 AM archivist: the cutting level can overhang covering the rails
04:35 AM gloops: could do, could also have screws under the table
04:35 AM gloops: better keeping all distances short though where leverage is in play
04:36 AM archivist: see Loetmichel's pics where he overhangs covering the rail
04:37 AM gloops: if the screws are turning you could have a cleaner along the screw, like a brush you have as a draught excluder
04:37 AM archivist: turn the sbr rail 90 deg mount carriages on the inside face of gantry
04:38 AM gloops: yes seen that, instinct just says have the weight going down onto the supporting rail, in practice probably doesnt make a difference
04:40 AM gloops: bearing footprint is more important
04:46 AM RyanS: is any particular welding process worse with distortion? I'm thinking stick would generate the most heat
04:47 AM archivist: oxy acetalene is worse
04:48 AM archivist: for brittle stuff that must not distort, heat in a muffle furnace
04:48 AM gloops: you want fast welding
04:48 AM gloops: gas is by far the worse yeah
04:48 AM RyanS: after seeing how neat tig is, I can hardly see the point of stick or mig for most stuff I want to do
04:49 AM gloops: mig or stick
04:49 AM archivist: cast iron is properly done in a muffle furnace
04:49 AM gloops: yeah for cast needs to be dull red when you weld it
04:51 AM gloops: hmm or 'black hot' maybe, if my memory serves
04:51 AM RyanS: no grinder or cleaning with tig, just paint it
04:51 AM gloops: well thats one thing Ryan, the appearance neednt be important though
04:52 AM archivist: we had a cast steam pipe done at a local company, effin good job
04:52 AM gloops: never used any scientific methods for cast, but generally it needed to be warmed up, and the proper rods used
04:53 AM archivist: http://www.castironwelding.co.uk/
04:53 AM gloops: it also needs to be cooled down properly
04:53 AM archivist: rods are cast
04:53 AM gloops: you see a nice firm looking weld - then it cools down and pulls apart lol
04:54 AM archivist: that rubbish nickel rod yup
04:55 AM RyanS: I'm a neat freak so I like purdy welds
04:56 AM gloops: its alright but this fancy lapping and stuff takes time
04:56 AM gloops: same with gas - the whole area is glowing - not good
04:58 AM gloops: when you come to use the machine the look of the welds will be the least of your worries
04:59 AM RyanS: that sounds.. worrying
05:00 AM RyanS: at least it'll look good, lol
05:01 AM gloops: i want the cuts to look good
05:01 AM gloops: hence i have - or am in the process of building a surface grinder
05:28 AM jthornton: morning
05:28 AM XXCoder: hey
06:08 AM TurBoss[m]: hello
06:11 AM XXCoder: hey TurBoss[m] been a bit
06:11 AM XXCoder: hows things
06:12 AM TurBoss[m]: fine
06:12 AM TurBoss[m]: :D
06:13 AM XXCoder: cool
06:13 AM XXCoder: forgot what ya was doing? planning cnc machine?
06:15 AM TurBoss[m]: me?
06:16 AM TurBoss[m]: was success
06:17 AM XXCoder: nice :)
06:37 AM Tom_L: 36�F heat wave movin thru
06:42 AM jthornton: 41f and rain for the next week
08:52 AM Eduard: hallo.
08:52 AM Eduard: Habe mir eine Mach3 platine aus China organisiert
08:53 AM Eduard: die bokomme ich leider nicht zum laufen
08:53 AM IchGucksLive: hi from germany
08:53 AM IchGucksLive: sunny day here
08:53 AM Eduard: hi vrom Germany too
08:54 AM IchGucksLive: Eduard: ich sitze in zweibrücken
08:54 AM Eduard: Ich bei Kaiserslautern
08:54 AM IchGucksLive: toll
08:54 AM IchGucksLive: bitte drück mal doppelt auf meien nich mane
08:54 AM IchGucksLive: name
08:58 AM Deejay: wenn man das liest, könnte man meinen, du wärst betrunken ;)
08:59 AM Deejay: 3 wörter hintereinander alle mit tippfehler
08:59 AM IchGucksLive: ich bin immer blau
08:59 AM IchGucksLive: beer
08:59 AM the_wench: I am not your waitress!
09:00 AM Deejay: lol
09:16 AM IchGucksLive: Deejay: wetter ist der hammer
09:24 AM IchGucksLive: rone: Bem-vindo da Alemanha
09:24 AM IchGucksLive: como é o tempo rone
09:25 AM Frank_10: muito bom por aqui
09:25 AM Frank_10: (?)
09:25 AM IchGucksLive: ;-)
09:26 AM Frank_10: any reason why my machine is deviating from the actual cutting path? screen preview shows the correct path while it does another one
09:26 AM IchGucksLive: G64
09:26 AM Frank_10: like it misses a few points in the path; while yesterday i run the same program 6 times with 0 problems
09:27 AM Frank_10: g64 p0.1 on program
09:27 AM Frank_10: super frustrating
09:27 AM IchGucksLive: is there metric or inch
09:27 AM Frank_10: the exactly same program and today is doing weord stuff
09:27 AM Frank_10: metric
09:27 AM IchGucksLive: is the G21 in the programm
09:27 AM Frank_10: and its beeing constant; now it does it every time i run the program
09:28 AM Frank_10: yesterday; fine
09:28 AM IchGucksLive: did you reload it fter homing
09:29 AM Frank_10: nope
09:29 AM Frank_10: why?
09:29 AM Frank_10: neither did yesterday
09:29 AM IchGucksLive: the interpreter is full n inch so it might regionice G64 0.1 inch
09:29 AM Frank_10: but it only does weird stuff on a couple lines
09:29 AM Frank_10: on a 20 min program
09:33 AM Frank_10: T_T
09:37 AM archivist: Frank_10, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TrajectoryControl also see the new planner
09:40 AM Frank_10: archivist: i have the program set up with g64 p0.1 on metric; i will try to see if the problem is homing after i set up the program...
09:41 AM Frank_10: before it was working great
09:41 AM Frank_10: and what the machine does os dofferent from what it shows; whic tells me its not the planner
09:41 AM Frank_10: afaik
09:42 AM IchGucksLive: maybe G92 in place
09:54 AM IchGucksLive: im off later out wetter cycling
09:57 AM Frank_10: still same problem.......
10:10 AM Frank_10: im going nuts guys
10:15 AM Simonious: I'm looking for a materials properties database, anyone?
10:15 AM archivist: Frank_10, you say its different but not said how
10:16 AM archivist: Simonious, the BRLCAD boys were working on one
10:17 AM Simonious: ok, will look
10:23 AM Simonious: archivist: Is it viewable online? I'm not seeing it.
10:24 AM archivist: Simonious, it was a GSOC project so may be somewhere in the code or whatever
10:32 AM gloops: well just about a dozen holes to drill and bolt up and i will have a surface grinder
10:34 AM gloops: and some mods to the guard..
10:38 AM gloops: 450x200 area, can true up z axis, with moving the part could flatten longer lengths, if indeed it works
11:02 AM Frank_10: is imgur still good?
11:02 AM Frank_10: ive heard some complains
11:02 AM Frank_10: any good alternative?
11:03 AM archivist: that site works
11:04 AM SpeedEvil: Plus, they've recently introduced folders to favourites, which is nice
11:08 AM FranK___: guys, this is the problem im having, machine makes wrong path on the lower side of the picture, still cant figure it out..
11:08 AM FranK___: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_hhmUELWMLWelZnaXdBLVBzZDA
11:08 AM FranK___: g64 p0.1 on
11:08 AM FranK___: Yesterday it was working fine,
11:09 AM FranK___: could it be noise problems???
11:09 AM FranK___: only on that little part?¡
11:25 AM gregcnc: only that corner is bad?
11:28 AM FranK___: yes
11:28 AM FranK___: and yesterday it didnt even happen
11:28 AM FranK___: i've run that same program 5+ times
11:29 AM FranK___: it even slows down a little bit and then makes that awfull curve, while the preview shows the correct path
11:30 AM gregcnc: I doubt it's noise or lost steps, the path after the corner would end up in the wrong place.
11:30 AM FranK___: yes
11:30 AM FranK___: i thought the same
11:31 AM FranK___: i tried changing the lines that create that part of the wood piece but still the same
11:36 AM FranK___: after line 51490 is all good.... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_hhmUELWMLWZGkwOUxoVzV4VDA/view?usp=sharing
11:39 AM gregcnc: open loop steppers?
11:39 AM FranK___: open loop servos
11:39 AM FranK___: closed on drivers
11:39 AM gregcnc: which driver?
11:39 AM FranK___: panasonic
11:39 AM FranK___: matching the servos
11:40 AM gregcnc: how much position error do they allow before faulting?
11:41 AM gloops: nothing mechanical possible?
11:42 AM gregcnc: mechanical error wouldn't allow position to be corrected after the bad path
11:44 AM gloops: looks like one axis slowed right down, other kept going, where there should be a corner
11:44 AM pcw_home: A loose coupling could possibly do this
11:44 AM pcw_home: (that sticks at either end of the lost motion)
11:45 AM gregcnc: but path before and after is correct?
11:47 AM FranK___: i've just tried only the contour that is going wrong, without all the inside carving, with g61 and g64 p0.1, both times working good
11:47 AM gloops: the bad axis has shorter to travel, hmm
11:48 AM FranK___: maybe cutting forces moving gantry?
11:48 AM FranK___: i dont think so
11:48 AM FranK___: it slows down, and then moves to the curve
11:50 AM Todd_Z: could you post a link to the g-code that is messing up? (the whole file, rather than a picture of it on screen)
11:50 AM gloops: like the bad axis is getting to its destination co-ordinate, but just too slow
11:51 AM Todd_Z: Does the backplot in Linuxcnc show the right path?
11:53 AM Todd_Z: Is the problem repeatable, or has it only happened once?
11:53 AM Todd_Z: If Linuxcnc thinks the right thing is happening, but the servo is doing something else, the problem is in the servo.
11:53 AM FranK___: yes
11:53 AM FranK___: 4th time
11:54 AM FranK___: repeating
11:54 AM FranK___: yes the preview shows the right path
11:57 AM gregcnc: panasonic minas?
11:57 AM FranK___: yes
11:58 AM Todd_Z: What happens if you try to pause the machine while it is in the middle of cutting the corner off? Do the DRO posisions jive with where the machine actually is?
11:58 AM FranK___: i didnt check or remember
11:58 AM gregcnc: do you have it set up so that the drive stops after position error limit is exceeded?
11:58 AM FranK___: http://paste.ubuntu.com/25866322/
11:58 AM FranK___: file going wrong:
11:59 AM FranK___: is it possible that because the file is big linuxcnc is messing up?
12:00 PM FranK___: i've separated in a program only the path that goes wrong (post procesed again) and it works good
12:00 PM gregcnc: tha'ts not big
12:06 PM pcw_home: I would also set LinuxCNCs following error limits very small so you can make sure its not a issue there
12:07 PM archivist: does he have encoders back to lcnc anyway
12:08 PM pcw_home: No I don't think so but a small stepgen error limit will guarantee that the steggen is following the path correctly
12:09 PM gregcnc: archivist open loop linuxcnc closed loop servos
12:09 PM archivist: I think the step dir servos are unhelpful to users
12:10 PM pcw_home: the stepgen itself has a feedback loop and that should be monitored
12:10 PM gregcnc: makes me think the drives are getting the path, but not executing it or faulting, and catching up when they can
12:10 PM FranK___: where are the following error numbers to configure
12:10 PM pcw_home: ( a reason to use small ferror limits even on "open loop" systems )
12:10 PM pcw_home: in the ini file typically
12:11 PM FranK___: now im trying the files dry
12:11 PM FranK___: without power to spindle and no wood obviously lol
12:11 PM FranK___: will try that pcw, thanks
12:12 PM FranK___: its mind blowing the problems i have with lcnc, yesterday it was all perfect
12:12 PM FranK___: tried the same exact program 5+ times
12:12 PM pcw_home: if inches, I would suggest say .001 and .003 for min_ferror and ferror
12:13 PM Todd_Z: The servo drives should aslo have appropriately sized following error limits programed, and send a fault signal back to Linuxcnc if exceded.
12:13 PM FranK___: metric but i can convert
12:13 PM pcw_home: ( just so a large setting doesn't mask a setup error )
12:13 PM FranK___: thanks
12:14 PM gregcnc: if linuxcnc isn't the problem check driver parameter 63 and 64, page APP 34
12:16 PM pcw_home: if it was working on the same file before with all the same settings, a hardware problem ( electrical or mechanical ) seems likely
12:16 PM gregcnc: seems like default value for follow error in the driver is 480,000 encoder pulses
12:20 PM FranK___: okey will check..
12:20 PM FranK___: but if i isolate the path that missbehaves on a sepárate program it works good
12:21 PM archivist: probably in a different mechanical position on the table
12:22 PM archivist: some crap in the rack?
12:22 PM FranK___: is what i was thinking, but always on the same spot¡?
12:23 PM FranK___: and it slows down on that part
12:23 PM gregcnc: binding+cutting load may be overloading the servo, but being closed loop with huge follow error it catches up eventually
12:23 PM FranK___: (speed)
12:23 PM FranK___: i even tried slowing down feed rate speed
12:23 PM FranK___: but same problem
12:23 PM archivist: if you have a stiffness in one place
12:24 PM FranK___: i 've just tried the combined program of the working one with the one that was wrong and it worked good on dry
12:24 PM FranK___: now i will try dry the old one
12:24 PM FranK___: 20 min...
12:29 PM gregcnc: I don't see how linuxcnc could not output step/dir pulses correctly and still end up with a good path after the bad
12:29 PM archivist: the symptoms absolve linuxcnc :)
12:34 PM FranK___: lol
12:35 PM FranK___: my machine and lcnc are married, if you insult one you have to deal with the other one too
12:35 PM FranK___: heh
12:36 PM archivist: we all get problems from our self build machines
12:36 PM archivist: the true marriage has feedback to linuxcnc
12:37 PM Frank_10: maybe i should do it; i have the option; thou its not easy
12:37 PM Frank_10: servo has a ton of parametrrs
12:38 PM Frank_10: okey dry run; working good with old file
12:38 PM Frank_10: the wood on that area was lifting a bit; maybe pushing the machine?
12:40 PM archivist: jamming or too much force thus slowing the axis, with feedback that would have been seen and the other axes would have slowed in tandem
12:40 PM archivist: or a following error fault
12:41 PM Frank_10: still amazed thou; if somwhow; forces were not pushing the machine to where the problem was
12:42 PM gloops: so have you cracked it frank?
12:49 PM Frank_10: it works; but i still cant understand lol
12:49 PM Frank_10: now wet run
12:49 PM Frank_10: with wood
12:52 PM gloops: i would check that position out sometime, the linear bearings
12:54 PM Frank_10: maybe it helped that i set up the servos with low torque max; amd the wood lifting helped moving the y axis until it could recover with servo loop
12:55 PM Frank_10: nah; gantry is 150 kg i have linear guideeays from hiwin
12:56 PM Frank_10: actually now that i think about it i think it was slowing down the x axis; thou the only way it could move was laterally
01:06 PM Frank_10: working good now thanks to everyone guys
01:06 PM Frank_10: in to dumb to do it myself hehe
01:08 PM IchGucksLive: hi
01:09 PM IchGucksLive: Frank_10: did you solve the gcode problem
01:09 PM IchGucksLive: Eduard: still online ?
01:15 PM Frank_10: im here sry
01:15 PM Frank_10: working
01:15 PM Frank_10: i did kind of solve it
01:15 PM Frank_10: apparently wood was moving up on me and making forces on the servos thou deflecting geometry; servos then looped back to position
01:16 PM IchGucksLive: is it public where the hint have been
01:16 PM Frank_10: hows everythin on germany
01:16 PM IchGucksLive: full moon cold night
01:18 PM Frank_10: beatifull
01:18 PM gloops: Frank do you have a wood spoil board?
01:18 PM Frank_10: yes; but i do a different approach than everyone else
01:18 PM Frank_10: i put a 3mm spoilboard
01:18 PM gloops: ahh
01:18 PM gloops: no vacuum?
01:18 PM Frank_10: it kind of goes bad quickly
01:19 PM Frank_10: and ot doesnt help
01:19 PM Frank_10: but i dont have to resurface
01:19 PM Frank_10: nope
01:19 PM Frank_10: you do have vacuum?
01:20 PM gloops: one method you can use, if you havent tried it, when you have the drawing open in cam, mark some spots in the waste to cut first, just a touch, then you can screw it down to spoilboard
01:20 PM gloops: 2 minutes with cordless
01:20 PM Frank_10: exactly
01:20 PM Frank_10: 2 minutes
01:20 PM Frank_10: hehe
01:21 PM Frank_10: i have holes accross the main table where i can quickly clamp stufd
01:21 PM Frank_10: until today it was great
01:21 PM gloops: not with a full sheet though?
01:21 PM Frank_10: now i have to add a clamp to the top poece of this program to work as its supposed too
01:22 PM SpeedEvil: https://raptornails.com/ produce a line of composite nails and staples which aren't horribly expensive, and are also interesting
01:22 PM Frank_10: i dont. understand your question
01:22 PM SpeedEvil: the nailguns are rather spendy.
01:22 PM SpeedEvil: They are GFRP, but not instant death to carbide
01:22 PM gloops: no so easy to clamp a full sheet as the clamp holes are covered?
01:23 PM Frank_10: machine max sheet size is 1830x915mm
01:23 PM Frank_10: exactly 1/3 of a full sheet from here
01:24 PM Frank_10: the stuff i do until now works good with some tabs and clamps on the sides;
01:24 PM Frank_10: thou yesterday i wanted to do aome plywood and it did horribly
01:24 PM gloops: i see
01:24 PM Frank_10: i need downcut carbide cutter
01:24 PM Frank_10: to try at least
01:25 PM Frank_10: i do 6000mm/min on 15mm mdf one pass
01:25 PM Frank_10: its soft mdf thou; never tried the darker/thougher mdf
01:26 PM archivist: blaming linuxcnc when you changed material!
01:31 PM IchGucksLive: archivist: if servo fail then hardware is not the best i guess
01:34 PM archivist: it is step dir without feedback and a large default following error in the servo
01:34 PM gloops: yes, what were saying about closed loop? lol
01:34 PM IchGucksLive: gloops: you got it right
01:34 PM Connor: Hey guys.. what exactly are Silver And Deming drill bits? I need some larger than 1/2" and Harbor Freight has these.. https://www.harborfreight.com/silver-and-deming-drill-bit-set-8-pc-61802.html
01:35 PM gloops: so you see Ichs - it is not a conclusive matter
01:35 PM gregcnc: basically reduce shank drills
01:35 PM Connor: and.. I just read this.. “F.Y.I. Remember, special care should be taken when using diameter 1” and greater to avoid bending or shearing the reduced shank. These drills are not recommended for enlarging existing holes!”
01:35 PM IchGucksLive: gloops: but it gives alarm so you can pause the mashine
01:36 PM IchGucksLive: gloops: its not a real servo but its a improvement
01:37 PM IchGucksLive: Folks how in the world can a mayar bycicle fast way in NY not be blocked for cars
01:38 PM IchGucksLive: over 10 blocks
01:38 PM IchGucksLive: and multiple street entrences on traffic light control
01:38 PM cradek: Connor: in general if a (non reduced shank) drill doesn't fit in your drill press, it's not big enough to effectively drill that size
01:38 PM cradek: Connor: those S&D drills are really not ever a good solution
01:38 PM cradek: Connor: what are you trying to do?
01:39 PM Connor: I just need to drill a 5/8" Clearance hole.
01:39 PM Connor: My index set only goes to 1/2"
01:39 PM cradek: in what?
01:39 PM Connor: A36 Steel.
01:39 PM cradek: how big does your drill chuck go?
01:40 PM Connor: I don't remember if the drill press has a 1/2" or 3/4" on it.
01:40 PM IchGucksLive: 13mm standard
01:40 PM cradek: (more importantly might be what's your slowest speed)
01:40 PM cradek: if it's 3/4 then get you could get a real 5/8 drill
01:41 PM archivist: or a more taper one if the spindle can take them
01:41 PM archivist: morse
01:41 PM cradek: you'll probably want to drill at 300 rpm (50 sfm)
01:41 PM cradek: it will take a lot of pressure
01:42 PM Connor: It's a standard floor drill press.. It's at the makerspace.. so I don't know how slow it can go or what the chuck size is..
01:42 PM Connor: Have to drill through 1" bar.
01:42 PM cradek: sideways or end on?
01:43 PM gloops: slow and plenty of cooler
01:43 PM gloops: peck it out
01:43 PM cradek: yes and do not "step drill" which people sometimes suggest
01:43 PM Connor: 1"x2" flat bar.. have to go through 1" of it for the hole.
01:44 PM cradek: you might consider one pilot hole though, the diameter being about the same as the web thickness of the big drill
01:44 PM Connor: Yea.. step drilling anything larger than 1/2 is bad news.. it grabs too easily..
01:44 PM cradek: right
01:45 PM cradek: if your drill press is too small or marginal, and you have a boring head for your mill, maybe consider that instead
01:46 PM Connor: The mill isn't setup yet.. or I would use it.. this is for making the leveling feet for it. :)
01:46 PM cradek: but if it'll go 300rpm and has the 3/4 chuck you'll be fine
01:46 PM archivist: if the bar is not too long chuck in the 4 jaw on the lathe, that can drill big holes
01:47 PM Connor: 28" long..
01:47 PM Connor: and we only have a mini lathe..
01:47 PM Loetmichel: archivist: you reference me for a design decision? i am honored!
01:47 PM Connor: Do have access to a MagMount drill..
01:47 PM cradek: that's pretty big for those
01:47 PM Frank_10: lol
01:48 PM Connor: It's got those special bits that look like whole saws..I'm not sure what sizes though.. and if it can do 1" thick.
01:48 PM Connor: hole saws.. not whole saws..
01:49 PM Connor: Hmm.. that set of bits has 5/8" and 11/16" I wonder if I drill it 5/8" if it'll have enough clearance for a 5/8" bolt to freely move..
01:52 PM archivist: less able to clear chips though
02:03 PM Connor: @cradek If I'm reading this right.. that drill press can do 300rpm, and looks to have a 5/8" chuck. 1/2 HP motor.
02:05 PM MarcelineVQ: Connor: rotary broaches?
02:05 PM Connor: Don't have any of those.
02:05 PM MarcelineVQ: ah ok I thought that's what you mean by hole saw bit
02:06 PM gloops: that drill will be fine, would be better with MT bit though imo
02:08 PM Connor: No. Ones like this.. https://www.proweld.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Magnetic-Drill-Bit.jpg
02:10 PM syyl: aaah
02:10 PM MarcelineVQ: oh I see I messed up the terms, that is what I meant only it's called rotabroach, which is annular cutting not rotary broaching
02:10 PM syyl: rota broaches, the best invention directly after sliced bread
02:14 PM cradek: Connor: I bet it'll be fine then
02:14 PM IchGucksLive: is core cutter the same as rota broaches
02:16 PM MarcelineVQ: IchGucksLive: seems like it
02:16 PM IchGucksLive: thanks im off Gn8
02:21 PM gloops: you cant beat the old cast iron radial arm drill for boring
02:21 PM roycroft: lots of things are boring
02:22 PM roycroft: cast iron radial arm drills do not have a monopoly on that
02:22 PM gloops: with steady feed - you cant do it the same with a press
02:22 PM MarcelineVQ: roycroft: how dare you make fun of boring
02:24 PM syyl: why not? there are numerous drillpresses with powerfeed.
02:24 PM gloops: i mean a hand operated press
02:24 PM gloops: there are some with screw pressing, with a wheel
02:25 PM roycroft: boring should be boring
02:25 PM roycroft: if it's exciting you're doing it wrong
02:25 PM gloops: i like it when you get long spirals coming out
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: who makes boring machines?
02:35 PM zeeshan: cincinnati
02:35 PM zeeshan: TOS is another big one
02:36 PM gloops: elliot
02:38 PM gloops: http://west-point.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/e/l/elliott_rad.jpg
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: explain the differences between boring and drilling and how this relates to modern vs contemporary philosophers and corporate poets
02:39 PM zeeshan: thats a radial mill...
02:39 PM zeeshan: :P
02:39 PM zeeshan: er
02:39 PM zeeshan: er radial drill
02:39 PM zeeshan: weak sauce!
02:39 PM gloops: weak?
02:39 PM zeeshan: http://www.triconmachinery.com/dat/products/1371/2454512.jpg
02:39 PM zeeshan: yes
02:39 PM zeeshan: vs something like that
02:39 PM zeeshan: :)
02:39 PM gloops: you can bore all day with that
02:40 PM Tom_L: show n tell?
02:40 PM zeeshan: any of you guys use v-groove rollers before
02:40 PM zeeshan: i got a design for work that im thinking of using em on
02:40 PM Tom_L: never ever ever
02:40 PM zeeshan: the eccentric style
02:41 PM gloops: would be the eccentric style
02:41 PM miss0r: I don't like long spiral chips :] Hard to vacuum
02:42 PM Tom_L: that glorified drillpress looks new
02:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.zoro.com/smith-bearing-v-groove-eccentric-stud-track-rollers/g/00115184/ like these?
02:44 PM CaptHindsight: zeeshan: or this type? http://www.pcimfg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/PCI_LBRA_Track_Rollers_2015R4_VTRE.pdf
02:44 PM zeeshan: yea similar to that
02:44 PM gloops: what are you making zeeshan?
02:45 PM zeeshan: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO-mFIQZajcn1ZD8Hkzcnh1MdX67Jl1dnmW8qqZk2eGopDwyg4eEJa0m_Y7SkJlwA?key=REdFWXZJTk1iMGdjaHRWaGlYLTFYLW54TURBdi1R
02:46 PM zeeshan: so theres basically 3 cylinders that give you 2^3 indexing positions
02:46 PM zeeshan: the problem is when they're in like that, any lateral load will screw up the cylinder seals
02:46 PM zeeshan: accelerated wear
02:46 PM Tom_L: zeeshan is that f360?
02:47 PM zeeshan: so i am looking at a cheap way to support the cylinders throughout the indexing moves
02:47 PM zeeshan: nah, inventor
02:47 PM zeeshan: the problem is the roller looked at has an eccentric bushing that goes in it
02:47 PM zeeshan: but the through hole is only good for 6-32
02:47 PM zeeshan: i can break that crap with my hand
02:48 PM zeeshan: i want at least 1/4-20, but then you need to go to a larger size v-groove rail
02:48 PM zeeshan: i was hoping to see some pictures of different arrangements people have used with these v-groove rollers.. i've seen the style where people move a carriage for gantrys
02:49 PM CaptHindsight: what acting as the linear bearing? A linear bearings or the cylinders?
02:49 PM CaptHindsight: or are you trying to make both do so?
02:49 PM zeeshan: theres linear bearings that are kind of hidden in the pictures i posted
02:49 PM zeeshan: they are there there to take the moments under operation
02:50 PM zeeshan: but that doesnt help the cylinders get supported because they're on alignment couplings which give play
02:50 PM zeeshan: plus manufacturing tolerances means they wont be coaxial
02:50 PM zeeshan: so they'll always see some lateral load unless supported
02:50 PM gloops: ive just had a shocking idea i need to draw with a stubby blunt pencil
02:51 PM gloops: no its ok, wouldnt work
02:51 PM zeeshan: the other simpler solution but not as economical
02:51 PM zeeshan: is have a dedicated linear rail for the cylinder..
02:51 PM zeeshan: lol
02:51 PM zeeshan: seems like a waste of $
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: you have to decide on what component will take the load
02:52 PM zeeshan: capt lemme post a pic
02:52 PM gloops: the V bearings arent cheap though are they?
02:53 PM zeeshan: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO-mFIQZajcn1ZD8Hkzcnh1MdX67Jl1dnmW8qqZk2eGopDwyg4eEJa0m_Y7SkJlwA?key=REdFWXZJTk1iMGdjaHRWaGlYLTFYLW54TURBdi1R
02:53 PM zeeshan: refersh
02:54 PM zeeshan: CaptHindsight: see?
02:54 PM zeeshan: those linear bearings take the loadin
02:54 PM CaptHindsight: I have to run but post pics for possible ...
02:54 PM zeeshan: gloops: about 50$ cheaper
02:54 PM zeeshan: er 50%
02:55 PM gloops: than an sbr 12 rail?
02:55 PM zeeshan: nahh
02:55 PM zeeshan: similar
02:56 PM zeeshan: sbi20 sll
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: don't you want the linear bearings to align the movement?
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: and the pistons just to provide the force?
02:56 PM zeeshan: CaptHindsight: yea thats how its setup right now
02:56 PM zeeshan: but if you look at the top most 2 cylinders
02:57 PM zeeshan: if you were to grab them with your hand
02:57 PM zeeshan: they would have side to side play
02:57 PM zeeshan: which in turn accelerates wear on the cylinder
02:57 PM zeeshan: so if i was to constrain that movement, it'd help extend the life of the cylinders
02:57 PM zeeshan: thats what the v-groove bearing is trying to do.. stop lateral movement
02:58 PM zeeshan: problem is theres no way to adjust the eccentricity of it!
02:58 PM zeeshan: access issues :)
02:58 PM CaptHindsight: not sure what I'm seeing yet in the pics....
02:59 PM zeeshan: ive been looking at it for 2 days so i understand :)
02:59 PM zeeshan: lol
02:59 PM CaptHindsight: I see one cylinder next to some cable chain
02:59 PM zeeshan: theres not one cyl
02:59 PM zeeshan: thats 2 cylinders attached to each other
02:59 PM zeeshan: the longest cylinder on the bottom is fixed to the frame
03:00 PM miss0r: About to try doing 20mm depth of cut in mild steel with a 4-flute carbide endmill. Using what Mastercam x5 claims to be a 'highspeed' tool path :)
03:00 PM zeeshan: the top most cylinder is fixed to the lifter mechanism
03:00 PM gloops: what runs in the 2 slots?
03:00 PM zeeshan: usually prox sensors
03:01 PM miss0r: The days of only wearing the first few mm of the endmills are over! Now I plan on snapping them right off
03:01 PM zeeshan: but i wouldnt rely on those surfaces because they're not accurate
03:01 PM MarcelineVQ: miss0r: tear it up!
03:01 PM miss0r: Realy hoping to do just that ;)
03:02 PM MarcelineVQ: do you have air blowing on the cut at least though :>
03:02 PM miss0r: medium pressure flood coolant
03:02 PM MarcelineVQ: you're ahead of the game
03:02 PM miss0r: A mister would be better at evacuating the chips thou. I've long wanted one
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: need more details, I don't know why the cylinders are floating and why the linear bearings are not keeping the stage from lateral movement
03:03 PM zeeshan: because the rod couplers can move like 3 degrees from the axis of the cylinder
03:03 PM zeeshan: and you need those there because it helps w/ cylinder misalignment
03:05 PM Tom_L: turns out the anonymous ebay seller for these steppers is automation technologies
03:05 PM zeeshan: haha
03:06 PM Tom_L: i chuckled too
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: yes and then the linear bearing should keep the stage that they move from moving laterally
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: if the rod couplers flex then the rods will move laterally
03:09 PM zeeshan: yes
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: so who put those there?
03:09 PM zeeshan: ]i did!
03:10 PM zeeshan: cause from experience i know its hard to get the cylinders in line
03:10 PM zeeshan: i think i may need to just go to a larger v-groove wheel :(
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: are you trying to add a linear bearings the rods on the cylinders?
03:12 PM zeeshan: yea
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: -a
03:12 PM zeeshan: thats why thers the v groove
03:12 PM zeeshan: wheel in that one pic
03:12 PM zeeshan: with a bracket that attaches to the cyl
03:13 PM zeeshan: to the 2nd cyl
03:14 PM miss0r: hehehe. Forgot about overlapping. it started chattering when it moved 4mm into the workpeice at 20mm depth of cut at full width
03:14 PM miss0r: No wonder. Generating new g-code
03:16 PM gloops: whats keeping the V bearing pressed to the track?
03:17 PM zeeshan: see the big ass hex
03:17 PM zeeshan: you turn that and the wheel makes contact to the track... its an eccentric adjustment
03:18 PM gloops: i see
03:18 PM miss0r: IF this toolpath works, I will remove 20x125x125mm mild steel in 30 minuts. That is pretty fast for me :D
03:19 PM zeeshan: i like how this all is layed out for concept
03:19 PM zeeshan: the main problem is the 6-32 bolt in that vgroove wheel
03:19 PM zeeshan: too small in my opinion
03:19 PM zeeshan: it'd be a lot nicer with a 1/4-20 bolt.. but that requires going from a 20mm diameter v-groove wheel to 30mm :(
03:20 PM JT-Shop: zeeshan: what are you making?
03:20 PM zeeshan: some machine for work
03:20 PM zeeshan: =D
03:29 PM miss0r: woah! Working perfectly. Listening to the mill. I could've doubled the tool engagement :]
03:30 PM miss0r: but holy - this is gonna be alot of chips :D
03:30 PM gloops: sounds like you got the speed bug miss0r
03:30 PM miss0r: Speed bug?
03:30 PM DaViruz: the need for speed!
03:30 PM miss0r: lol
03:31 PM miss0r: hey DaViruz. long time no see
03:47 PM JT-Shop: I hope I'm caught up by January :~{
03:51 PM MarcelineVQ: JT-Shop: you've got to believe in yourself
03:57 PM JT-Shop: self is not the issue, customers keep tossing more work at me lol
03:58 PM XXCoder: "No"'
03:58 PM Tom_L: and that's a problem?
03:59 PM JT-Shop: when they all want their project done at the same time yes
04:01 PM * sadisticroot can't figure out what the hell to do with these linear actuators X.X
04:01 PM sadisticroot: Now that I got proper valves and air hoses for them
04:01 PM JT-Shop: I want to make a gate opener out of one that came off a cat scan table
04:02 PM sadisticroot: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5fQTi1W868OQU9nRXVsbUtGNzA/view?usp=sharing
04:02 PM sadisticroot: They could certainly do that
04:02 PM XXCoder: sadisticroot: video zoom
04:03 PM XXCoder: combined with focal change you can do that old style dramatic shots
04:03 PM sadisticroot: Hrm, it could be used for a camera
04:03 PM sadisticroot: That's an idea
04:03 PM sadisticroot: I have 7 of them
04:03 PM XXCoder: you can also do that 2001 special effecrs
04:04 PM XXCoder: needs older camera as it needs very long exposure time
04:04 PM sadisticroot: They have a 1400mm stroke
04:04 PM sadisticroot: And are accurate to around 1mm
04:05 PM sadisticroot: Was thinking maybe painting
04:05 PM miss0r: Machine did it! surface finish excellent. and the tool didn't wear
04:07 PM sadisticroot: I was going to just sell them but eBay doesn't seem interested
04:07 PM JT-Shop: miss0r: nice!
04:08 PM miss0r: Now I guess I'll have to experiment with speeding it up :}
04:26 PM JT-Shop: the boss said it's time to go share a beer with the chickens :)
04:26 PM enleth: ok, KUKA moves all axes after power module replacement
04:27 PM enleth: but emits a clacking noise from the base
04:59 PM simonious: eh, I think I need a primer for solid stress analysis and safety factors.
04:59 PM simonious is now known as Simonious
05:07 PM CaptHindsight: zeeshan: will the can bearing on the shafts cause enough wear to cause the seals on the cylinders to fail?
05:08 PM CaptHindsight: can bearing/cam bearings
05:12 PM CaptHindsight: sadisticroot: belt drive?
05:16 PM sadisticroot: No, pneumatic
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: sadisticroot: unless the belts are crap or not under tension they have better repeatability than 1mm
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: oohh
05:16 PM sadisticroot: They work off differential pressure
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: sucks :)
05:16 PM sadisticroot: Naw, still damned cool
05:17 PM sadisticroot: Apparently they're commonly used for airplane control surfaces
05:17 PM sadisticroot: And medical devices
05:17 PM sadisticroot: Since they don't need electricity
05:19 PM CaptHindsight: Star Trek doors
05:21 PM CaptHindsight: hazardous locations and where electrical power is not
05:24 PM CaptHindsight: only 7 so making a giant pneumatic spider is out
05:26 PM sadisticroot: lol
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: maybe a big gripper
05:46 PM ziper: could I hand scrape a block and cylinder head instead of milling them
05:49 PM Frank_10: you could; with the right tools; which if you dont have, then it would be more expensive
05:50 PM Frank_10: it too depends the degree which how flat you want it
05:54 PM CaptHindsight: sadisticroot: are they big enough to make a racing simulator seat?
05:55 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFCRh-anfRg
06:12 PM Deejay: gn8
07:58 PM ziper: Frank_10, flat enough to run, I guess
08:20 PM hazzy: ve7it: I went thru a cup of coffee or two yesterday exploring your website. Great stuff on there!
08:23 PM MarcelineVQ: which site is that?
08:23 PM hazzy: http://ve7it.cowlug.org
08:24 PM hazzy: At least I assume that is the same ve7it :)
08:31 PM MarcelineVQ: http://ve7it.cowlug.org/gutter-duster.html wowow
08:31 PM MarcelineVQ: I've got like... 6 buildings of gutters here and you bet I'm going to try this
08:31 PM xunil: that's clever!
08:33 PM xunil: say, is anyone using LinuxCNC for a plasma cutter? I've read rodw's thread here: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/show-your-stuff/32029-rods-spaceship-scratch-built-plasma-cutter-build
08:34 PM xunil: it sounds like gmoccapy is the way to go, and it seems like all of the branches rodw mentions have been merged
08:34 PM xunil: just wondering if anyone has any other tips
08:34 PM xunil: planning to install debian 9, install the preempt_rt kernel, build from master, and use gmoccapy
08:35 PM xunil: not worried about the x/y, that's pretty straightfoward; have a Mesa THCAD for torch height control, and that's the area i foresee the most work
08:45 PM andypugh: xunil: JT-Shop Has been using a Plasma with LinuxCNC for many years
08:46 PM andypugh: xunil: The “external offsets” experimental branch makes THC rather easier.
08:48 PM andypugh: Night all :-)
08:56 PM Connor: You think a 3" Bi-Metal hole saw can go through 1/4" mild plate okay? I need to make 4 3" disks..
08:56 PM BeachBumPete: sure
08:57 PM SpeedEvil: If you can go slow enough
08:57 PM BeachBumPete: with lots of retracts for clearing chips and lots of coolant or cutting fluid
08:57 PM SpeedEvil: and that
08:58 PM Connor: 300RPM on the drill press...
08:58 PM BeachBumPete: I would try to run it as slow as possible
08:58 PM Connor: It's either use the whole saw.. or cut them out with plasma (which I've never used) and maybe turn them down on the mini lathe.
08:59 PM BeachBumPete: plasma works but the edges will work harden making turning more difficult
08:59 PM pfred1: I use crappy hole saws to cut through steel but like others have said spin slowly use a lot of cuttign fluid and brush the chips away
08:59 PM BeachBumPete: if you plasma it then grind it before turning...
08:59 PM BeachBumPete: do you plan to use the pilot drill?
09:00 PM pfred1: I also cut from both sides with a pilot hole
09:00 PM pfred1: that helps a lot
09:01 PM MarcelineVQ: pfred1: a hole in the path of the cut for chip clearance?
09:01 PM pfred1: I don't do that
09:01 PM Connor: and the thought of trying to turn the disks on that little lathe isn't a good thought...
09:01 PM MarcelineVQ: it helps a lot for wood, dunno about metal
09:02 PM Connor: Yes.. I plan on using the pilot bit.
09:02 PM Connor: MarcelineVQ: I do that when doing MDF.. I'll drill holes on the ID..
09:02 PM pfred1: Connor 300 RPM with a 3" hole saw is 236 SFPM so a bit fast
09:03 PM Connor: I can go up a 1/8" and drill holes on OD for chip clearance..
09:03 PM Connor: pfred1: That's as slow as that drill press goes.. :(
09:03 PM pfred1: I just vut 2 big holes in steel for a project with a hole saw
09:03 PM pfred1: well cool it a lot take breaks
09:04 PM pfred1: HSS is good to 100 SFPM
09:04 PM BeachBumPete: If you are using a center hole/pilot hole I have just cut rough with a bandsaw or plasma or whatever you have and made an arbor for the lathe to hold the disk while you turn it down but its sometimes hard to hold onto
09:04 PM pfred1: after that you get into the burn zone
09:04 PM pfred1: that's why metalworking tends to go wrong for folks they toast the tools
09:05 PM Connor: I'm making leveling feet.. So, I need 3" disks to go ontop of the hokey puke.. I purchased washers.. but, they're just not large enough OD.. Thinking of making the disks to spread the load over all the puck.. not just the 1.75" that the washer will cover..
09:05 PM pfred1: SFPM = (PI X DIA X RPM) / 12
09:06 PM pfred1: that's the surface speed formula
09:06 PM jdh: do they need to be round?
09:06 PM jdh: and... hiya connor
09:06 PM Connor: Heya jdh. Well.. the hokey pucks are round.. :)
09:06 PM roycroft: just cut some square pieces of bar stock and drill holes in the middle
09:07 PM roycroft: it will be good enough
09:07 PM jdh: so
09:07 PM roycroft: if you want to cover a little more area cut the squares oversize and clip the corners off
09:07 PM BeachBumPete: https://i.imgur.com/SbXFl9T.jpg new toy errr tool ;)
09:08 PM pfred1: I never had any luck with Ryobi tools
09:08 PM Connor: I may try the 1.75" OD washers and put one of the feet in a press and see how much force it can take..
09:08 PM MarcelineVQ: a ryobi shaped drinking mug
09:08 PM pfred1: I got a biscuitter by them I swear the thing is cursed
09:08 PM roycroft: build a 50 ton hydraulic punch, make some 3" dies, and punch discs out of some flat stock
09:09 PM BeachBumPete: I use them daily in my work never had any problems
09:09 PM pfred1: I set it all up and it puts the slots at random heights
09:09 PM BeachBumPete: I especially like the cordless multi tool
09:09 PM pfred1: I can't evne imagine how it does it
09:09 PM roycroft: my biscuit cutter is a dewalt
09:09 PM pfred1: my first router was a Ryobi too
09:09 PM roycroft: i could not afford a lamello
09:10 PM BeachBumPete: I need this for a tight confine cut tomorrow
09:10 PM roycroft: which is well worth the money
09:10 PM pfred1: but al lthe Ryobi I got is old now I hear they've improved a lot
09:10 PM BeachBumPete: my impact is quite good as well
09:10 PM pfred1: I have like their old blue stuff
09:10 PM roycroft: i suspect the problem is operator error
09:10 PM roycroft: a biscuit joiner is a pretty simple tool
09:10 PM pfred1: roycroft yes it is
09:10 PM BeachBumPete: I used to use a cheapass ryobi trim router that was a factory refurb all the time in my shop
09:11 PM pfred1: how they managed to screw it up is a mystery to me
09:11 PM BeachBumPete: it was like 30 bucks at the outlet store up in TN
09:11 PM BeachBumPete: I bought two just in case
09:11 PM * roycroft continues to suspect operator error :)
09:11 PM BeachBumPete: worked great for years
09:11 PM roycroft: are you cutting biscuit slots in 3/4" stock?
09:11 PM pfred1: I've looked at it to try to find something loose i can't find anything wrong
09:12 PM Connor: Or.. I can order 3" dia washers from McMaster-Carr with 5/8" ID for $3.02 each..
09:12 PM BeachBumPete: never had a cordless trim router before looking forward to NOT having the chord get stuck on something while I am making a long cut in something
09:12 PM pfred1: Connor $3 for a washer?
09:12 PM roycroft: every biscuit joiner i've ever used is designed to center the cuts in 3/4" stock when using the bench as the reference plane
09:12 PM BeachBumPete: its a 3" thick washer tho
09:12 PM jdh: cut some 3" wide stock 3" long, call it doen.
09:12 PM BeachBumPete: ?
09:13 PM roycroft: so if you're using 3/4" stock, just set the tool on the bench and the work on the bench and bob's your uncle
09:13 PM BeachBumPete: every biscuit jointer I ever used (Mostly Porter Cable) are completely adjustable
09:13 PM Connor: It's 3" dia, 5/8" id, Zinc-Plated Steel. Rockwell B40. 0.235-0.265" Thick..
09:13 PM roycroft: if it's not 3/4" then the flip-down guide at the top should be pretty sturdy
09:13 PM BeachBumPete: dats a bigazz washer
09:13 PM roycroft: yes, beachbumpete
09:13 PM roycroft: but not adjustable if you're using the bottom of the tool as the reference plane
09:14 PM pfred1: washers https://i.imgur.com/x5b2laW.jpg
09:14 PM jdh: Connor: what are you levelling?
09:14 PM roycroft: adjustable if you use the flippy top guide
09:14 PM pfred1: there's a big un in there
09:14 PM Connor: jdh: My bridgeport. :)
09:14 PM BeachBumPete: I wish I had a dollar or every biscuit I have cut in my lifetime having worked in pro woodshops for over 20 years ;)
09:14 PM jdh: wow. did you get a new shop to go with it?
09:14 PM Connor: jdh: Makerspace.
09:14 PM roycroft: biscuit joints are not very strong
09:14 PM roycroft: but they align very accurately
09:15 PM roycroft: that's the beauty of them
09:15 PM jdh: Connor: cool, where is it?
09:15 PM BeachBumPete: not very strong??
09:15 PM roycroft: no, they're not
09:15 PM pfred1: roycroft not with my biscuit joiner they don't
09:15 PM BeachBumPete: wow thats not my experience at all
09:15 PM jdh: perhaps your biscuit joiner is really a biscuit please-stay-togetherer
09:15 PM roycroft: if you're joining two boards on edge with biscuits, it's the glue on the edges that are all the strength
09:16 PM roycroft: try it some time
09:16 PM roycroft: take two piece of wood
09:16 PM roycroft: cut biscuit slots
09:16 PM Connor: South Knoxville.. Just off of Chapman Highway.. about a mile past the Henley St bridge.
09:16 PM roycroft: put glue in the biscuit slots, but not along the edges
09:16 PM roycroft: join the two boards with biscuits
09:16 PM pfred1: Connor you singing some CCR song?
09:16 PM BeachBumPete: I think I would know what makes a strong joint after over 20 years making custom cabinets and furniture LOL
09:16 PM roycroft: then take two identical boards, glue them along the edges but don't use biscuits, and see which is strong
09:17 PM Connor: pfred1: Um. No. Just tell jdh where the Makerspace was. :)
09:17 PM jdh: I used to live about 5 miles past that
09:17 PM roycroft: then join two identical boards with dowels
09:17 PM pfred1: Connor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrMvblpZFq0
09:17 PM roycroft: you'll find that the dowel joints and the plain glue joints are a lot stronger than the biscuit joints
09:17 PM * roycroft has been using a biscuit joiner since the '80s, and uses it often, but knows its limitations
09:18 PM jdh: BeachBumPete: all those years making cabinetry.... if only you have known.
09:18 PM pfred1: I had mine since the mid 90s i guess
09:18 PM roycroft: in most work, they're strong enough
09:18 PM roycroft: certainly for average kitchen cabinets and the like
09:18 PM pfred1: I like my kreg kit better
09:18 PM roycroft: but a joint can be strong enough and at the same time be not very strong
09:19 PM roycroft: a mortise and tenon joint is going to be way stronger than a biscuit joint
09:19 PM pfred1: roycroft yeah a bit more work to do though
09:19 PM roycroft: but again, the biscuit joint is strong enough for most things
09:20 PM Connor: BeachBumPete: You get your Cincinnati 500 up and running yet ?
09:20 PM roycroft: i would not build a solid wood entry door with biscuits
09:20 PM pfred1: I got a dedicated mortiser now
09:20 PM Connor: :)
09:20 PM roycroft: i build cabinet door frames with biscuits all the time
09:20 PM pfred1: I saw one at a yard sale and I was like what the hey?
09:20 PM BeachBumPete: We use pocket screws for face frames
09:21 PM roycroft: i have mixed feelings about pocket screws
09:21 PM BeachBumPete: I have built MANY very elaborate and expensive entryway doors,transoms, sidelights etc...
09:21 PM roycroft: they're stong, and fast, and accurate
09:21 PM roycroft: but butt ugly
09:21 PM BeachBumPete: of course you would not use biscuits for that
09:21 PM pfred1: roycroft for biscuit level work they're OK by me
09:21 PM roycroft: even when you get those filler pieces for the pockets
09:21 PM roycroft: and even when they're hitdden
09:21 PM BeachBumPete: jdh LOL
09:21 PM roycroft: i'm one of those weird people who worries about hidden joints and not just visibile joinery
09:21 PM pfred1: if I'm not going to be bothered doing real joinery
09:21 PM roycroft: it all depends on the project for me
09:22 PM roycroft: biscuits are cheaper than pocket screws
09:22 PM roycroft: so there's that to consider as well
09:22 PM pfred1: yeah but pocket screws are reusable
09:22 PM roycroft: i have a pocket screw jig and i do use them occasionally
09:23 PM pfred1: glue that biscuit in and that's it
09:23 PM roycroft: yes, and i use pocket screws a lot when i'm making temporary jigs and the like
09:23 PM roycroft: cases where reuse would be common
09:23 PM pfred1: that's the ticket
09:23 PM roycroft: and where appearance is utterly irrelevent
09:23 PM pfred1: not everything is meant to last forever
09:24 PM pfred1: it ain't all heirloom quality work
09:24 PM roycroft: so don't think i'm anti bicuits or anti pocket screws at all
09:24 PM BeachBumPete: I probably use a couple hundred pocket screws a week
09:24 PM roycroft: my mantra is "appropriate technology"
09:25 PM pfred1: when i made this I was like pocket screws http://i.imgur.com/k88knn2.jpg
09:25 PM roycroft: one of the things that was really stressed when i went to engineering school was to not overdesign/overbuild things
09:25 PM roycroft: that has stuck with me over the years
09:26 PM pfred1: perfection is the enemy of good enough
09:26 PM roycroft: and frankly is one of the most important concepts in engineering
09:26 PM pfred1: don't make anything better than you have to
09:26 PM roycroft: you can be lazy, guess what you need to do, and then build 4x bigger than you guessed to be sure
09:26 PM roycroft: or you can calculate what you need to do, and build with more like a 10-50% safety margin, not a 400% safety margin
09:27 PM pfred1: overkilling stuff is the mark of an amateur
09:27 PM pfred1: a pro knows what he has to do to get by
09:27 PM roycroft: so i'm sticking with my assertion that biscuits are not very strong, because they're not
09:28 PM roycroft: but also i'm sticking with my assertion that they're perfectly fine for a lot of applications, because they are
09:28 PM roycroft: and they're cheap and fast to use
09:28 PM pfred1: not by themselves but with glue it is a strong joint
09:28 PM roycroft: i used to get some really cool knock down biscuit fastners, made by lamello
09:28 PM roycroft: i haven't seen them in years
09:29 PM roycroft: but they were the size of a #20 biscuit, made of aluminium, and came in pairs of half-biscuits with fingers to join them together
09:29 PM roycroft: the sides were ribbed, so you could install them with epoxy (being aluminium, they don't swell up when glued to grab onto the wood substrate)
09:30 PM roycroft: those really were quite strong, and made it really easy to make knock-down furniture
09:30 PM roycroft: i haven't seen them in years though
09:30 PM sync: lamello simplex?
09:31 PM roycroft: yes, i just found them online
09:31 PM roycroft: looks like they still make them
09:31 PM sync: sure
09:32 PM roycroft: but to be honest, i haven't seen a genuine lamello biscuit joiner in a store in a couple decades, at least
09:32 PM roycroft: i guess they don't have a good distribution network in my part of the world
09:33 PM pfred1: roycroft stores can't afford to stock what is not going to sell
09:34 PM zeeshan: long live the internets
09:34 PM roycroft: i'm not sure they would not sell
09:34 PM roycroft: big box stores carry festool
09:34 PM roycroft: and that is a super premium brand
09:35 PM pfred1: usually a company will make an el chapo line for big stores
09:35 PM pfred1: el cheapo even
09:35 PM pfred1: like supposedly the knippex in BB stores is crap
09:35 PM roycroft: i don't know if the big box festool stuff is any different than their "real" stuff
09:35 PM roycroft: i never got the appeal of festool
09:35 PM roycroft: other than the modular storage boxes
09:36 PM roycroft: it's good stuff
09:36 PM pfred1: sustainers
09:36 PM sync: sys
09:36 PM pfred1: how dare you call them boxes!
09:36 PM roycroft: certainly better than most consumer/contractor grade stuff
09:36 PM roycroft: they're boxes
09:36 PM roycroft: they have six sides are are empty in the middle
09:36 PM roycroft: and you open them up and put stuff in them
09:36 PM roycroft: if that's not a definition of a box i don't know what is
09:36 PM sync: I'm not sure how big lamello is in the market
09:37 PM roycroft: they invented the biscuit joiner
09:37 PM pfred1: they got big prices
09:37 PM roycroft: and their products are still the best
09:37 PM sync: all the people I know have a domino
09:37 PM roycroft: but yes, they are very expensive
09:37 PM roycroft: biscuit joiners did not become popular in my part of the world until the dewalt came out
09:38 PM roycroft: iirc the dewalt was about $200, while the lamellos were $600-$900
09:38 PM roycroft: after dwalt every one started making $200 biscuit joiners
09:38 PM roycroft: i haven't seen a harbor freight biscuit joiner yet
09:38 PM sync: yeah, the big festool is like 1.2k
09:38 PM pfred1: there's not much to them really
09:38 PM sync: there are
09:39 PM roycroft: but if there isn't one, there will be some day, and it will be $70, on sale for $50 most of the time
09:39 PM sync: but in reality that is not a lot of money, if you use them to make money
09:39 PM pfred1: roycroft https://www.harborfreight.com/4-in-biscuit-plate-joiner-68987.html
09:39 PM pfred1: I should get one to replace my Ryobi
09:39 PM BeachBumPete: that HF biscuit jointer is a PIECE OF SHIT one of the guys I work with has one we used it on a jobsite one time
09:39 PM roycroft: ok, so i had the price right :)
09:40 PM sync: yeah, they don't work right
09:40 PM roycroft: yes, i would expect a harbor freight biscuit joiner to last until about coffee break
09:40 PM pfred1: that's how my Ryobi is
09:40 PM sync: when I had to do some stuff with one of them I got a lamello
09:40 PM roycroft: it will either have burned up by then or someone will have smashed it into a wall by then
09:40 PM pfred1: I got HF grinder it runs like a raped date
09:40 PM sync: because it was so annoying
09:41 PM roycroft: i have a bunch of hf 4-1/2" grinders
09:42 PM roycroft: i use better quality ones for the ones i use a lot
09:42 PM pfred1: they work
09:42 PM roycroft: i don't like changing grinding wheels all the time
09:42 PM pfred1: who does?
09:42 PM roycroft: so i just have a bunch of grinders instead
09:42 PM pfred1: https://i.imgur.com/Nq40UA9.jpg
09:42 PM BeachBumPete: https://i.imgur.com/hJhaJjP.jpg These SUCK....
09:43 PM roycroft: yeah, well not only that
09:43 PM pfred1: BeachBumPete what's wrong with them?
09:43 PM roycroft: i don't like mixing grinding wheels/brushes on different metals
09:43 PM BeachBumPete: I have bought like eight of them so far
09:43 PM BeachBumPete: only one has lasted more than a couple days
09:43 PM roycroft: i have a set for carbon steel, a set for stainless steel, and a set for non-ferrous metals
09:44 PM pfred1: I only work with mild steel
09:44 PM roycroft: those taper drills are utter crap
09:44 PM BeachBumPete: what happens is the drill bit shaft itself is sorta pressed into the hex shank
09:44 PM roycroft: i tried a couple once years ago
09:44 PM pfred1: they work for me
09:44 PM BeachBumPete: it comes loose
09:44 PM pfred1: it must be operator error
09:44 PM BeachBumPete: thats hilarious...
09:45 PM BeachBumPete: we used them CONSTANTLY in custom cabinet work
09:45 PM pfred1: change the crappy set screws for cap screws
09:45 PM BeachBumPete: there IS NO setscrew
09:45 PM roycroft: taper drills and vix bits are mandatory for cabinet shops
09:45 PM pfred1: I can see it right in the picture
09:45 PM BeachBumPete: they are like pressed in or glued in or something
09:45 PM BeachBumPete: its just these dewalt ones that suck
09:46 PM pfred1: oh that's a hex shank mine aren't liek that
09:46 PM roycroft: yes, it's the dewalts that suck
09:46 PM BeachBumPete: the box stores dont seem to carry anything else now
09:46 PM pfred1: mine the bit just goes right through
09:46 PM roycroft: taper drills generally are very useful
09:46 PM roycroft: but dewalt taper drills suck
09:46 PM pfred1: I got the harbor freight set of them
09:46 PM roycroft: with the hex shank
09:46 PM sync: BeachBumPete: just glue it in with bearing retaining compound
09:47 PM BeachBumPete: sync I thought of trying to use something on the ones that slip but was not sure what
09:47 PM pfred1: here ya go https://www.harborfreight.com/carbon-steel-tapered-drill-bit-and-countersink-set-22-pc-61635.html
09:47 PM BeachBumPete: these damn things are like ten bucks
09:47 PM pfred1: whole set $9
09:47 PM sync: loctite 648
09:47 PM sync: they'll never come out
09:47 PM BeachBumPete: I think I tried that set once actually
09:47 PM Tom_L: find a different brand if you use so many of them
09:48 PM roycroft: weld it tight!
09:48 PM BeachBumPete: well actually my boss buys the cutters and blades for me and he only shops HD or Lowes so you get what you get LOL
09:48 PM BeachBumPete: sync thats not a bad idea
09:49 PM pfred1: BeachBumPete don't ever let him go into a Harbor Freight store
09:49 PM Tom_L: you'd have to re temper it
09:49 PM pfred1: weld it under water
09:49 PM sync: did that a lot of times when I needed long drills
09:49 PM pfred1: like put the bit end in water
09:50 PM BeachBumPete: Oh cool the new season of Stranger things is out on netflix now
09:50 PM roycroft: home depot carry semi-tolerable tooling
09:50 PM roycroft: lowe's is just a tiny notch above hf
09:50 PM Tom_L: what about menards?
09:50 PM roycroft: we don't have any menards here
09:50 PM roycroft: that's a back east chain
09:50 PM pfred1: here either
09:50 PM roycroft: but i've been to menard's in minnesota
09:50 PM Tom_L: we've got 2
09:51 PM roycroft: and it's like ace hardware
09:51 PM pfred1: our lowes and home depot are practically next door to each other too
09:51 PM pfred1: yeah and ace
09:51 PM pfred1: all 3 are i na row
09:51 PM roycroft: the lowe's and home depot in west eugene are literally next to each other
09:51 PM pfred1: here they're all very close
09:52 PM pfred1: like all 3 stores are within a half a mile or less
09:52 PM roycroft: i can drive behind the home depot, where the trucks go to unload, and that part of the parking lot connects to the back of the lowe's parking lot
09:52 PM roycroft: i go to lowe's a handful of times per year though
09:52 PM roycroft: they have the best prices in town on sheet goods
09:53 PM roycroft: and they carry some colors of hammerite and other rustoleum paints that other stores around here don't
09:53 PM roycroft: but those are the only things i ever buy there
09:53 PM roycroft: we have a locally owned big box store named jerry's
09:53 PM roycroft: it's very close to my house
09:54 PM roycroft: and i buy most of my home improvement type stuff there
09:54 PM roycroft: they price match anywhere, including amazon
09:54 PM pfred1: here the lowes is very popular so I go to home depot
09:54 PM pfred1: it is less crowded
09:54 PM roycroft: and jerry's have the best commercials
09:56 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H_r4GGakWo
09:56 PM roycroft: not the best of their commercials
09:56 PM roycroft: but the one i found on youtube
09:57 PM pfred1: they do a lot of home spun TV here too
09:59 PM roycroft: i just bought a router at jerry's the other day
09:59 PM roycroft: and they price matched amazon for me
09:59 PM pfred1: here there's a car dealership that puts up wacky commercials
10:08 PM MarcelineVQ: hooray, home hacker hurdle of the hour handled
10:09 PM MarcelineVQ: tinned ends and wired plug for new spindle with reasonable ohm rating
10:10 PM MarcelineVQ: we're getting there :o
10:13 PM RyanS: if only some pace could sell an adjustable monitor bracket that doesn't bounce around like a pogo stick or tilt down at the slightest touch yet require a two handed wrenching to tilt up
10:15 PM MarcelineVQ: possibly they do, only you'd probably need to pull a lever to loosen it, adjust monitor, then tighten it
10:15 PM RyanS: need to build a stand out of steel that withstands an earthquake
10:20 PM roycroft: weld it in place
10:20 PM roycroft: use an earthquake when you need to adjust it
10:21 PM MarcelineVQ: roy's onto something here
10:24 PM RyanS: make it out of structural I beam
10:24 PM RyanS: concrete base
10:25 PM roycroft: the trick is to sink the base deep enough to be rigid under normal conditions, but not so deep that it won't "adjust" when the big quake hits
10:26 PM MarcelineVQ: what if we put it on a float in a sandbox
10:26 PM ve7it: hazzy, yup thats me! too many interests
10:27 PM MarcelineVQ: ve7it: I recently found out nanaimo had a makerspace, just an fyi in case you didn't know hehe
10:29 PM ve7it: MarcelineVQ, I have heard that, but have never been there.... I wonder if they have a bridgeport or a plasma table or a laser cutter? (all toys I would love in the shop)
10:29 PM hazzy: ve7it: I like your gutter cleaner, might have to copy that :D
10:29 PM ve7it: simple and cheap and keeps me off the roof
10:29 PM MarcelineVQ: I'm not sure, when I checked their forum they were wanting a laser or plasma still, they at the very least have a lathe and a cnc
10:30 PM RyanS: found a monitor stand https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/52/f8/f752f83fcf6104da9a89c61077fd519d.jpg
10:30 PM MarcelineVQ: Probably gonna join if my first cnc build ends up needing something more special than I can make at home
10:33 PM MarcelineVQ: ve7it: ah here we go, under the About the Equipment section, https://makerspacenanaimo.org/faq/
10:34 PM MarcelineVQ: bandsaw, lathe, cnc router, seems to be the biggest gear
10:37 PM ve7it: they seem to talk about welding, but dont show any welders in the tool lists
10:40 PM MarcelineVQ: just letting you know you can do it there I guess. a shop welder's a little too easy to run off with maybe, or just haven't had one donated as a permanent fixture
10:42 PM MarcelineVQ: you can get a lot of work done on a 12" lathe though, wonder what kind of training they require for you to use it
10:46 PM MarcelineVQ: ve7it: what do you use to kill the moss on your roof by the way?
10:47 PM ve7it: I havent used anything so far... usually about every 3 years I hose it off. Its concrete tile, so I dont want to blast it with a pressure washer
10:49 PM ve7it: had a lot of sea gulls doing business on the roof... installed a long wire down the ridge and now they dont come and make deposits... I suspect that will reduce the moss growth quite a bit
10:49 PM MarcelineVQ: it just hoses off? lucky haha. it's pretty lousy here, seems to roots pretty bad in tar shingles
10:49 PM roycroft: i use a stiff push broom to remove the moss
10:50 PM roycroft: it works well when i remove it in the late summer, when it hasn't rained for a couple months
10:50 PM MarcelineVQ: reluctant to pressure wash since it's sure to cause single damage
10:50 PM ve7it: yea... I wait until it bakes a few months in the summer sun and turns brown.... its a little easier to get off
10:50 PM roycroft: if you run zinc strips along the ridge that will help keep the moss from growing in the first place
10:51 PM roycroft: i get a bit on the north side of the house in spite of the zinc strips, but much less than used to grow there
10:51 PM MarcelineVQ: zinc strips? I'll look into it thank you. One of the buildings is essentially impossible to get to, it's sort of a barn-style roof, considering seeing what a commercial product will do to it.
10:51 PM ve7it: zinc strips didnt make a noticeable difference here... they are still up there (after about 5 years)
10:51 PM MarcelineVQ: I'm amazed they could roof the thing in the first place, but then they can just attach boards to walk on at that stage
10:52 PM * roycroft worked as a roofer in a previous life, and shingled some pretty steep roofs
10:53 PM ve7it: zinc comes in about 2 1/2" wide rolls 50ft long.... cant remember what they cost but I think 3 rolls were less than $100
10:53 PM MarcelineVQ: that's a tough life
10:54 PM MarcelineVQ: up in the air bent over all day in the sun :X
10:54 PM ve7it: home depot special!
10:56 PM hazzy: MarcelineVQ: We have had very good luck using a product called wet and forget to keep the moss down on our roof.
10:56 PM hazzy: http://www.wetandforget.com/
10:57 PM hazzy: It also maked our old mildewy shingles look almost new!
10:57 PM MarcelineVQ: Product-wise I definelty want something I don't have to wash out after application, I'm told Tide works great but you can't just leave it up there or it'll mess with the shingle
10:57 PM MarcelineVQ: though it does rain enough here that with good planning that's not too tough a thing to self-manage
10:58 PM hazzy: You don't have to rinse the wet and forget, which is real nice
11:00 PM MarcelineVQ: Thank you all for the advise
11:02 PM gloops: fell asleep v early, up v early
11:02 PM MarcelineVQ: gloops: what shall you do with your newfound extended day?
11:03 PM gloops: Marcel i ought to go and try to get back to sleep really lol
11:03 PM roycroft: early to bed, and early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise
11:03 PM roycroft: please to bestow some of your wisdom on us
11:03 PM gloops: but wide awake
11:03 PM roycroft: and feel free to share some of your new found wealth
11:04 PM gloops: cant do anything in the garage
11:05 PM gloops: roycroft i never had any faith in that saying
11:08 PM roycroft: modern research on circadian rhythm actually indicates that from birth to just around teenage years, humans naturally are early risers
11:08 PM roycroft: but teens through the 20s and somewhat beyond are naturally more inclined to stay up late and rise late
11:08 PM gloops: yeah - dont hormones kick in during the teen years?
11:08 PM roycroft: as people age they revert to the early sleep early rise cycle
11:09 PM roycroft: but we did not have that research in ben franklin's day
11:27 PM MarcelineVQ: cleaning out some space to work on some electronics, what's this box here, oh neat stuff my grandpa gave me, doo dee doo... hot air gun, cool, glue gun, cool... brand new set of mitsutoyo dial calipers, oh :X
11:33 PM MarcelineVQ: not that new, just shiney I guess, having some repeatability issues
11:35 PM RyanS: what's the point of doing a DEB install, seems like an extra step? is a RIP fine as well?