#linuxcnc Logs

Oct 24 2017

01:37 AM gloops: well hopefully my ballscrew blues are over, new message - already shipped
01:40 AM MarcelineVQ: for a bit there you were getting blueballscrews
01:40 AM gloops: hehe, im not counting my chickens till theyre hatched, but i will build the frame
01:41 AM MarcelineVQ: I bust out the calipers and try to adjust my imagination based on an actual reference when it comes to that sort of thing, most often because my brain operates in inches and most things I'm able to order don't
01:42 AM MarcelineVQ: 'oh good, 7mm, what the hell is that.... oh about 1/4inch, okay'
01:42 AM CaptHindsight: I love working with math to design things
01:43 AM CaptHindsight: I jump back and forth from inch to metric all the time
01:43 AM CaptHindsight: I use whatever system based on whom I'm working with
01:43 AM gloops: things come to mind though if you have the parts and can see what is actually going to happen
01:43 AM MarcelineVQ: not that I'm great with imperial in the first place. "oh 0.060 great what is that... just under 1/16th okay"
01:43 AM CaptHindsight: math is wonderful
01:44 AM gloops: like - ahh that is going to hit that if i have it there
01:44 AM CaptHindsight: I can evenly divide a bolt circle and it comes out perfect
01:45 AM CaptHindsight: need to add a fastener but also need to keel a min. wall thickness around the hole no problem, math
01:45 AM CaptHindsight: keel/keep
01:46 AM gloops: maths to me is like doing the splits, something i probably am capable of, but mainly avoid
01:46 AM MarcelineVQ: I just recently found out we had a makerspace around here so hopefully as parts come in I'll be able to go there and do assembly that might require machining
01:47 AM CaptHindsight: MarcelineVQ: beware you might have get nose or era plugs
01:47 AM CaptHindsight: era/ear
01:47 AM gloops: useful option Marcel
01:47 AM MarcelineVQ: nose? :>
01:47 AM CaptHindsight: the on in Chicago had an affinity for those that avoid bathing
01:47 AM MarcelineVQ: ah the human element
01:48 AM CaptHindsight: if you are a morning person you might ave the place to yourself
01:49 AM MarcelineVQ: it's a 24/7 place, if I can get a membership, so there's all kinds of options
01:49 AM CaptHindsight: the down side here is that they want you to be certified to use certain equipment
01:49 AM MarcelineVQ: I doubt they'd let a new person just come in and do shit alone right off the start of course
01:49 AM CaptHindsight: such as a mill or welder
01:49 AM MarcelineVQ: I believe the lathe is the equipment the require training, or at least proof of competance for, for good reason
01:49 AM CaptHindsight: which requires showing up for some orientation
01:50 AM MarcelineVQ: imagine just throwing someone on a lathe without checking them out
01:50 AM CaptHindsight: there has been some rifts there as well...
01:50 AM CaptHindsight: the electron microscope has moved to another maker type space
01:50 AM MarcelineVQ: any machine that can eat me I don't mind an orientation class
01:50 AM gloops: thinking back a long time, we had lathes in school, its a wonder someone didnt lose fingers or worse
01:51 AM CaptHindsight: gloops: kids were different back then
01:51 AM MarcelineVQ: maybe, idk about that, I think shop teachers were different
01:51 AM MarcelineVQ: kids tend to be what you allow them to be
01:52 AM CaptHindsight: now they are just slackers that will post things about you on facebook and ruin your life
01:52 AM gloops: the main safety rule was - tuck your tie in lol
01:52 AM CaptHindsight: so they need to be arrested for making their hand into the shape of a gun and going bang
01:52 AM CaptHindsight: at the age of 6
01:53 AM MarcelineVQ: CaptHindsight: that was hideous wasn't it
01:53 AM CaptHindsight: yeah
01:53 AM CaptHindsight: or handcuffed for having ADHD or autisim
01:53 AM MarcelineVQ: I might be old fashion, but I think there should be special camps for people that would do that to a child for pointing a finger
01:54 AM CaptHindsight: they are called school administrators now
01:54 AM gloops: well it is true, you can be over-protective with kids
01:54 AM CaptHindsight: gloops: what sort of special ballscrews did you get?
01:55 AM gloops: they are only c7 for a router Capt, i was more bothered about the time it was taking than losing money really
01:55 AM gloops: ive got some time off next week could have built it had they been here
01:56 AM gloops: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SBR16-300-1350-1350MM3-SETS-LINEAR-RAILS-3-SETS-BALL-SCREWS-BALLSCREW-RM1605/311367687009?
01:56 AM gloops: they machined the ends of 3 screws for £20
01:59 AM MrHindsight: may your bearings not be crunchy
01:59 AM gloops: yes whats the crack with crunchy bearings, heard that a bit?
02:00 AM MrHindsight is now known as CapyHindsight
02:00 AM CapyHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
02:00 AM gloops: is just bad bearings or are people not getting alignment right?
02:00 AM CaptHindsight: often the Chinaco bearings are dirty or use balls that are not round..
02:00 AM CaptHindsight: so they make a crunchy sound when moved
02:01 AM gloops: i wonder if they put the odd flat ball in just for devilment
02:02 AM CaptHindsight: good bearings are pretty quiet or have a high pitch
02:02 AM CaptHindsight: I got too many that rumbled or had detents
02:03 AM MarcelineVQ: imagine you def want to clean them before use to avoid at least the grit factor, can't imagine what those workers are breathing to get so much cruft in the product
02:03 AM gloops: ive not used SBR rail before, i can live with quite a few though out, not sure how strong 16mm is though
02:04 AM CaptHindsight: what will the 16mm be mounted on?
02:04 AM MarcelineVQ: suported 16mm?
02:04 AM gloops: 50mm box section
02:04 AM CaptHindsight: steel?
02:04 AM gloops: yes will be supported - 50mm box section steel
02:04 AM CaptHindsight: what thickness?
02:05 AM CaptHindsight: the wall
02:05 AM gloops: 2.5 mm i think
02:05 AM CaptHindsight: they will help
02:05 AM CaptHindsight: what are you planning on cutting?
02:06 AM gloops: im going to drill and tap a 40mm flat bar to fit the sbr rails, then slide the flat bar into the box section and put the bolts through all
02:06 AM gloops: just wood, mdf, ply, pine boards
02:06 AM CaptHindsight: fine
02:07 AM CaptHindsight: hasta banana
02:08 AM gloops: there is some deflection with 50mm box over 4 foot, probably be negligible for what im doing
02:13 AM MarcelineVQ: from what I've seen in youtube vids there's negligable noise difference between an air cooled and water cooled chinaco spindle, both are fairly quiet low/mid and loud at top speed, does anyone have experience with either that could weigh in?
02:14 AM gloops: ive got air cooled - its almost silent
02:14 AM gloops: one point to remember - the air cooled arent so good with low speeds, the air cooling isnt efficient
02:14 AM MarcelineVQ: The noise in vids seemed to be bearing/shaft more than airflow, given the loudness of the water cooled oned at top speed
02:16 AM gloops: if its for wood the spindle sound isnt a problem either way i dont think - theyre all the same when the cutter goes in
02:16 AM MarcelineVQ: Good point, hard thing to plan for. My speed is going to be all over the place, wood, alu, steel at some point. water just seems like such extra hassle, allthough there's a vid with quite a nice solution, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQoL2MWYluM
02:17 AM MarcelineVQ: it doesn't need to be as large as he made as well from what I've read
02:18 AM MarcelineVQ: basically just one of these and a pump with a little resevoir https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B074QG2LMJ/
02:19 AM gloops: ooh i like his y axis design
02:20 AM MarcelineVQ: he's got a few good vids about that machine
02:20 AM gloops: but he must be using powerful servos to consider having a radiator on the carriage
02:21 AM CaptHindsight: my attachments to the spindles are loud so they drown out the sound from either spindle
02:21 AM MarcelineVQ: they got hot at first and appearantly once his software was tuned in they didn't anymore, the sinks are just legacy
02:22 AM MarcelineVQ: afaik it's just steppers
02:24 AM gloops: well i dont know about this idea, youre putting a bit of weight and leverage on the carriage there
02:25 AM gloops: Capt what attachmments - coolant etc?
02:25 AM MarcelineVQ: CaptHindsight: Anything would be quieter than what I have right now, which is an ancient black and decker router with the handles taken off
02:26 AM gloops: lol, the B&D was the loudest router ever anyway
02:26 AM MarcelineVQ: gloops: lots of oomph though hehe
02:26 AM gloops: these china spindles are silent in comparison, the spindle noise wont be issue, even if you use it in the house
02:27 AM MarcelineVQ: Yep, mostly I was curious about the comparison between air and liquid cooled for noise, since in most videos they seem nearly identical in that regard
02:28 AM gloops: with 2mm passes through pine - you cannot hear mine, someone outside the garage wouldnt know you were routing wood, theyd probably think you had cordless drill running or something
02:28 AM MarcelineVQ: cools advantage being less dust disturbance and heat takaway at any speed cons being adding a pump to the overall system complexity and dealing with coolant
02:29 AM gloops: once you get heavier cuts the cutting noise is all thats heard
02:30 AM MarcelineVQ: thank you for your input
02:30 AM Deejay: moin
02:35 AM gloops: im going to upgrade the spindle i use, if i get this little build right, i probably will go with water next time
02:39 AM IchGucksLive: morning from a cold fog shining germany
02:39 AM Deejay: no fog here
02:39 AM MarcelineVQ: what time is it in germany, 9am?
02:39 AM gloops: light rain, general greyness and murk
02:40 AM IchGucksLive: MarcelineVQ: yes
02:40 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: water cooled is some more noicy
02:41 AM IchGucksLive: at 22k rpm
02:41 AM IchGucksLive: the kress 1050 is so quite
02:41 AM Deejay: kress 1050 is loud like hell
02:41 AM gloops: well i cant speak from experience, only what ive gathered watching FB groups - my little air one couldnt be quieter
02:43 AM gloops: 2 common things you see re water v air - water and electricity dont mix, internal leaks = electric shocks and shorting out
02:43 AM gloops: with air, hard cutting aluminium say at low speed - 1500 rpm, air cooling doesnt work well
02:44 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: if you use for the sbr a 50x8 steel bar it will gelp you o mounting , welded every 150mm 20mm long
02:45 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: the spindles are not designed to go below 8k
02:45 AM gloops: i did think of tacking a flat bar on, but what distortion is the welding doing?
02:45 AM gloops: a dry bolted fit = no distortions
02:45 AM MarcelineVQ: gloops: alu should be cut at a fast rpm anyway afaik
02:46 AM MarcelineVQ: as fast as you can get away with if you can evacuate the chips
02:46 AM gloops: Marcel well just made up example
02:46 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: then do more borings then the design sbr gives you it will loosen on cutting
02:47 AM IchGucksLive: some used sheet screws
02:47 AM IchGucksLive: but they where crab
02:48 AM gloops: you may be right about shaking loose Ichs
02:48 AM MarcelineVQ: IchGucksLive: do you run your limit switches as normally open?
02:48 AM IchGucksLive: not the shaking its the tiny frequence frame vibration
02:48 AM IchGucksLive: NC
02:48 AM IchGucksLive: all 0 in a row
02:48 AM gloops: another joining mathod i consider - how about pouring scrap ally into the hollow sections?
02:48 AM IchGucksLive: 9
02:48 AM gloops: you could tap down 25mm
02:49 AM MarcelineVQ: oh pardon me I meant nc, thank you.
02:49 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: better to go for torantional milling
02:49 AM IchGucksLive: full depth oszi cutting
02:50 AM IchGucksLive: keeps the tool cold as ice
02:50 AM IchGucksLive: look at my hardwood chees mill #
02:51 AM IchGucksLive: at the horror millpath i finaly full touch the tool its cold as mounted
02:51 AM gloops: one more question for the experts - T6600 driver?
02:51 AM MarcelineVQ: is that trochoidal milling? that's called adaptive milling sometimes yes?
02:51 AM IchGucksLive: yes
02:51 AM IchGucksLive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdvROAlCMMQ
02:52 AM MarcelineVQ: most cnc I see seem to helical down down to depth and then adaptive cuts for slotting
02:54 AM IchGucksLive: the mill has a backlash of 0,3mm max and do real good stuff
02:54 AM IchGucksLive: go to the almost last seconds of the video
02:54 AM gloops: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Single-Axis-4A-42V-TB6600-2-4-Phase-Hybrid-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Controller/192172940470?
02:55 AM MarcelineVQ: I need to decide on the size of workpieces I want to be working on so the decision can be made about whether I want the table to move or the gantry
02:55 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: very expensiv for a tb7700
02:55 AM IchGucksLive: tb6600
02:55 AM IchGucksLive: my fingers dont fit the keys this morning
02:55 AM gloops: are they any good Ichs?
02:56 AM IchGucksLive: yes actialy the mill i mostuse in the videos have this
02:56 AM IchGucksLive: and i only use TR16x4
02:56 AM gloops: good, ill have some then haha
02:57 AM IchGucksLive: here inside http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/3achs_elek
02:57 AM gloops: neat
02:58 AM IchGucksLive: or the 4A http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/4achs_elek
02:58 AM IchGucksLive: the 5A has 542 http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/5achs_elek
02:59 AM gloops: nice boxes
03:00 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: 172423415990
03:03 AM gloops: someone is supposed to be joining the channel for help with building a robot arm
03:05 AM IchGucksLive: what help do you need at this
03:05 AM IchGucksLive: its a stepper at 5:1
03:06 AM IchGucksLive: plenatary top gear
03:06 AM IchGucksLive: the stepepr is mounted on one joint an d the gear ot the other
03:06 AM gloops: not me lol, someone was asking i told him to come here
03:07 AM IchGucksLive: ah
03:07 AM IchGucksLive: tell him to look at the sim mashines on the DVD
03:07 AM IchGucksLive: i need to leve later
03:21 AM MarcelineVQ: gloops: as an aside, it's probably not a big difference unless your whole frame is tubing, but you can add sand to tubing to dampen vibration
03:22 AM MarcelineVQ: which is to say you can fill the tubing
03:32 AM gloops: Marcel yes would probably help to add mass
03:33 AM gloops: my idea was to fill the relevant tubes with aluminium - you could then drill right through and bolt them, or drill into then and tap them
03:33 AM MarcelineVQ: like bricks? or poured?
03:34 AM gloops: poured, lot of scrap ally laid around
03:34 AM MarcelineVQ: that could be really interesting
03:35 AM gloops: you could in theory make joints that way too
03:35 AM gloops: like the old masons used to join stone with poured lead
03:35 AM gloops: no bolts
03:36 AM gloops: but what distoritions with the heat and setting etc?
03:36 AM MarcelineVQ: alu expands and contracts a large amount
03:37 AM gloops: might end up with banana shape box section when its cooling
03:37 AM MarcelineVQ: you'll want to pour with the tube set vertically and have a bit of a resevoir at the top for the alu to settle from
03:38 AM MarcelineVQ: then you'd cut off that extra bit and sand
03:38 AM MarcelineVQ: same sort of technique you'd want for alu sand casting so you could just look that up
03:38 AM gloops: yeah like that, i dont suppose youd even need to pour in one go
03:39 AM MarcelineVQ: hmm alu has a very high melting point, specifically aluimnum oxide has a high melting point, this means it is probaly better to pour in one go when possible since the cooling metal may not melt the oxide of the old metal
03:39 AM MarcelineVQ: I've no idea though, that's just my impression
03:40 AM gloops: easy to melt with a blowtorch, roofers torch ideal - keep a large volume molten is another matter though
03:40 AM MarcelineVQ: your tubing is quite thin, I'd worry about warpage from applying uneven heat in that fashion
03:41 AM MarcelineVQ: anyway, should be fun to play with
03:41 AM gloops: if i get round to ill try it on a piece see what happens
03:42 AM MarcelineVQ: All things being equal an oxide layer between two pours in a tube probably doesn't matter anyway
03:42 AM gloops: no, so long as it is stuck on the surface of the steel
03:42 AM gloops: nothing will move
03:43 AM gloops: i think it probably will bend it to hell
03:43 AM MarcelineVQ: That's the next thing to look into, whether you need some sort of fluxing inside to have the alu tack to the steel. you can weld alu to carbine and steel tooling but that doesn't mean molten alu tacks the same. though it could
03:44 AM gloops: if it doesnt shrink too much it should be fast on the surface contours of the steel anyway
03:45 AM gloops: ive used the idea to make ally billets for turning, just filled small thin wall steel tubes, turn the steel off, but that is only 6 inch lengths didnt pay much attention to warping
03:46 AM MarcelineVQ: hard to say whether it'll pull away from the sides as it cools or if that tension can be pulled from the top resevoir. another option is to lay the tube on its side and plug the ends, drill even holes along the length and have a pour into those with a resevoir at the top, so it can pull from closer metal as it cools
03:47 AM MarcelineVQ: sounds like a fun thing to play with, I'd like to try pouring down the road
03:48 AM MarcelineVQ: material is pretty expensive here so if I can cast closer to the shape I need it's a win over cutting down some block
03:48 AM gloops: well mold making is easy enough, cast ally is not the same as plate ally though, suppose it depends on the application
03:49 AM archivist: make patterns and get steel/cast iron castings done at a foundry
03:51 AM gloops: thats ok if you have orders at the right price archivist
03:52 AM gloops: if youre just making items to punt on the market or experimental, its better if costs is minimal, you have to consider the time involved though
03:54 AM archivist: andy made castings for his cnc lathe conversion
03:54 AM archivist: can be better shapes/suited for the job
03:54 AM gloops: well that may have suited his requirements for that job
03:54 AM gloops: but could you do that and sell the parts for a profit?
03:55 AM gloops: it is probably very cheap actually to have castings done on larger or steady orders
03:55 AM archivist: or sell at cost, he restored a motorbike and made extra
03:56 AM gloops: lost wax casting isnt a very time consuming process - once you have the molds for the wax forms
03:57 AM archivist: remember double shrinkage
03:57 AM gloops: they are usually working with injection molding for the wax, which means steel dies - those arent cheap
04:00 AM archivist: we used lost wax at the clockworks, worked from original positives
04:00 AM archivist: small qtys
04:02 AM gloops: i spent a little time at mckennas near sheffield, it was very quick the way they did it, injection molders churned thousands of wax forms out, everything set up round the furnace, when they poured the steel the floor workers were filling the molds like lightning
04:03 AM gloops: i suppose most of that is automated anyway in bigger concerns
04:03 AM archivist: http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2002/2002_09_03_Clockworks_Parts/P9030258.JPG
04:04 AM gloops: thats a fine bit of casting
04:04 AM MarcelineVQ: very impressive detailing
04:10 AM archivist: something like a silicon rubber positive to make the wax's
04:15 AM gloops: yes rtv silicone, can mold anything its great stuff
04:16 AM archivist: last time I made a wooden pattern I added too much for shrinkage, took a while to machine the extra off :)
04:16 AM gloops: you can use the silicone sealer from diy stores - what they use to seal windows and so on, not so good for various reasons though
04:30 AM archivist: made that on an anteeeek mill http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=skeleton+base
04:38 AM gloops: excellent archivist
04:39 AM archivist: most difficult was polishing the inside corners
04:55 AM gloops: these dremel type tools are ojk for anything like that
04:56 AM archivist: I wear out dremels, but to get a consistent look is still hard
04:58 AM gloops: use cnc to polish
04:59 AM archivist: did not have cnc when I did that
05:00 AM gloops: im surprised you arent into die making with your mill
05:00 AM archivist: never been asked
05:01 AM archivist: my best bit of dremel work http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2001/2001_07_13_Blacksmith_clock_hands/P1010116.JPG
05:01 AM archivist: the engraved groove on the arc
05:01 AM Loetmichel: archivist: use proxxon tools then... they live a lot longer. Or air powered grinders... live forever.
05:01 AM gloops: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DCA-4-5oz-WEIGHT-GRIP-LEAD-MOULD-KIT-LOOPS-WIRES-ROLLERS-BEACH-COD-SEA-FISHING-/122319886052?
05:01 AM gloops: make stuff like that?
05:02 AM MarcelineVQ: I'd like to make a lead hammer
05:02 AM MarcelineVQ: Not actually sure where to source lead around here ehe
05:02 AM archivist: Loetmichel, someone else had a proxon at work, horrible thing
05:02 AM Loetmichel: which one?
05:02 AM Loetmichel: try a proxxon IB/e
05:02 AM gloops: air tools are better - but its the noise
05:03 AM Loetmichel: these are the "professional" tools
05:03 AM Loetmichel: the "FBS230" or "FBS 12" are meant for hobby use like the dremel
05:03 AM gloops: scrap lead is about 50 pence a kilo, you would soon get some if you offered 60 pence
05:04 AM gloops: so long as you dont take any church roofs lol
05:04 AM XXCoder: archivist: nice cast
05:04 AM Loetmichel: MarcelineVQ: in germany i would say roofers or car tyre fitters
05:04 AM archivist: or scrap yards
05:05 AM gloops: or scrap man who comes round in pick up - get me a bag of lead
05:05 AM MarcelineVQ: There is a scrap yard nearby I'd like to check out to see if they sell bits or not, I suspect not due to their business interests, if not there is a recycling center that does
05:06 AM gloops: the small scrap yards are best, where you can walk round and sift through things, they will sell
05:06 AM gloops: the bigger concerns are too restricted by regulations and safety and not worth selling a few bits to public
05:06 AM MarcelineVQ: We don't have those here, unless you just know a guy who has a bunch of crap in his yard, the scrap places all got bought up by a bigger outfit
05:07 AM gloops: theres a place not far that takes skips full of bar ends - mainly too big for me to work with, would cost some money to buy new, he just sells them for scrap iron, would be glad to sell for more
05:10 AM MarcelineVQ: bit of a silly question, but will a 2.2kw vfd run a 1.5kw spindle all other specs being identitcal> I'm not sure why it wouldn't but it's better to ask
05:10 AM MarcelineVQ: *identical?
05:11 AM Loetmichel: MarcelineVQ: it will
05:11 AM Loetmichel: usually
05:11 AM Loetmichel: you can program the VFD to limit the current in pretty wide ranges.
05:11 AM archivist: yes, just a lower load than designed to handle may need to adjust settings
05:12 AM MarcelineVQ: it seemed silly, like a psu will give you up to its rated amps, but it'll give you as less as you ask for too so why wouldn't a vfd.
05:12 AM MarcelineVQ: thank you both
05:12 AM Loetmichel: it has to be set up correctly though or it COULD possibly burn the motor
05:12 AM Loetmichel: when stalled for example
05:13 AM archivist: I dont see how it could kill a motor
05:13 AM Loetmichel: if it was set for 2.2kw max and the spinle is stalled it COULD
05:13 AM archivist: stalling will kill any size
05:14 AM Loetmichel: provided that the watercooling or air cooling isnt sufficient to get thise extra watts away
05:14 AM Loetmichel: not if the VFD is set to the correct max power for that motor, it will switch off with overcurrent then
05:15 AM archivist: no motor is designed for long term stall except for some servo types
05:15 AM Loetmichel: also some autosetup routines inside some VFDs have problems with 400++Hz spindle motors... they dont recognize that they have to ramp up the coil voltage to 200hz or so instead of 50hz
05:17 AM Loetmichel: archivist: what i meant is that a stalled 1.4kw motor might not trip the VFD overcurrent setting if it is set to 2.2kw
05:17 AM jthornton: morning
05:20 AM gloops: the german stockists was doing matched vfd/spindle for about $150
05:20 AM gloops: mine only took a few days to come
05:21 AM gloops: £150
05:24 AM gloops: and a week to wire up haha
05:28 AM MarcelineVQ: hehe
05:29 AM MarcelineVQ: The spindle I'm looking at has pins for thermal protection, according to the label, I'm guessing that's just some thermistor in the chassis
05:30 AM gloops: well the 1.5 vfd is compatible with 800w spindle, guessing the 2.2 is ok for 1.5
05:30 AM gloops: the one i got you could choose 1.5 or 800w spindle - same vfd
05:30 AM archivist: MarcelineVQ, there are also thermal contact switches
05:32 AM MarcelineVQ: this is the only documentation for it on the page ehe https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1xgrOqHsTMeJjy1zeq6AOCVXat.jpg
05:50 AM gloops: well the first phase of my new project just arrived - a skip lol
05:50 AM archivist: followed by some skip rats
05:51 AM gloops: haha thats usually me
05:51 AM gloops: need space, been going to clear out for ages
05:52 AM archivist: if metal, then separate and take to scrap yard make money
05:53 AM gloops: not much metal, usually just out it outside the scrap men take it
05:53 AM archivist: the difference between a few p per kg to a few quid
05:55 AM gloops: the prices for light iron are pretty low atm i think, you can gauge it by the number of scrap men that come round
05:55 AM archivist: can getaway with a big bonfire disposal in a week or so
05:55 AM gloops: when it shot up to over £200 a tonne there was a scrap man round every 10 minutes
05:55 AM archivist: the rules tightened at the yards too
05:56 AM gloops: yes someone suggested that archivist - fire, i dont know it probably wouldnt get done, i can put everything in here and have done with
05:56 AM archivist: I was living off scrap for a while, then started separating for the scrapyard itself
05:56 AM gloops: yes they only pay into bank account now - no cash
05:57 AM gloops: theres money in scrap no doubt
05:57 AM archivist: even though I was in the cash era I had all the bits of paper from the yard
05:58 AM gloops: there was an old guy here who was taking in all the fridges the yards wont take, stripped all the copper wire and motor windings everything
05:58 AM gloops: dont know where the shells ended up, he died anyway
06:02 AM archivist: I got motors from a vacuum cleaner shop, hard work to earn from
06:02 AM gloops: got to be some messing about
06:03 AM gloops: probably best way - 10lb hammer
06:03 AM XXCoder: hope he reclaimed freon
06:03 AM archivist: motors were 50p a kg at the time, about 250-300g of copper
06:04 AM archivist: separated about 1.20 iirc
06:05 AM gloops: there are bits of expensive metal in some things, tin for example
06:05 AM archivist: aluminium fan :)
06:05 AM archivist: tin is usually a coating
06:05 AM archivist: or mixed in solder
06:06 AM archivist: bare PCBs were 12p a kg unless gold
06:07 AM gloops: tin is very expensive
06:07 AM archivist: I had a stack of electronics to separate, pcbs got a really nice cheque one day
06:09 AM archivist: did learn some techniques for taking seized stuff apart
06:09 AM gloops: tin - $20000 tonne, compared to lead $2500
06:10 AM archivist: what made pcbs bearable
06:14 AM XXCoder: building have stood since 1883
06:14 AM XXCoder: and it gets hit by car
06:14 AM XXCoder: http://www.king5.com/news/local/bellevue/oldest-surviving-structure-in-bellevue-hit-by-car/485446046
06:15 AM XXCoder: damage is pretty bad
06:17 AM gloops: theyll push it back up
06:18 AM gloops: well time for a bit of work
06:34 AM Tom_L: 48�F
06:43 AM jthornton: same here
08:41 AM gregcnc: safety first https://www.instagram.com/p/BandOUMjKV-/
10:31 AM Tom_L: is there a structural steel lib that comes with SW?
10:41 AM archivist: Tom_L, iirc yes, cannot remember its name though
10:49 AM Tom_L: i think it's in weldements but can't figure out how to get to it
10:49 AM Tom_L: anyway, gotta run right now
10:49 AM Tom_L: bbl
11:11 AM Loetmichel: *HA!* Finally got it right... maan are my programming skills rusty: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16857&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 https://youtu.be/yxqmSo-_VwY
11:12 AM hazzy: cool!
11:44 AM Deejay: re
11:46 AM Loetmichel: hazzy: and it even has CNC relevance... the PCB is insulation milled ;)
11:59 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
12:08 PM gloops: howdy
12:35 PM HighInBC: Loetmichel: I hope I get pcbs that good from my CNC
12:36 PM HighInBC: my work shop is so COLD right now, I need to bundle up to go in there
12:36 PM Loetmichel: HighInBC: its not THAT good.
12:36 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16815&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
12:36 PM Loetmichel: here's the pcb without parts
12:37 PM Loetmichel: useable but far from perfect
12:37 PM HighInBC: usable is my goal
12:39 PM JT-Shop: damn ip cameras are a pia
12:39 PM HighInBC: tru dat
12:40 PM hazzy: Loetmichel: That looks very good! I should to put a high speed spindle on my mill so I can make boards that way instead of etching.
12:40 PM Loetmichel: hazzy: i didnt do it fast
12:41 PM Loetmichel: F1200, not more
12:41 PM Loetmichel: (mm/min)
12:41 PM hazzy: What S did you use? I have a gear head mill so it tops out at 2000 rpm
12:43 PM Loetmichel: 24kRPM... i have a chinese CNC 6040 with a watercooled ER11 spindle
12:44 PM Loetmichel: https://youtu.be/b6NQ-05A0qc
12:44 PM IchGucksLive: Loetmichel: V 30grad
12:45 PM Loetmichel: https://youtu.be/jMXxjT4nNxg
12:45 PM Loetmichel: IchGucksLive: 30° V-bit yes
12:45 PM IchGucksLive: Loetmichel: what routing or pcb software is this
12:46 PM hazzy: Nice! I am thinking about adding a secondary high speed spindle for that kind or work
12:46 PM IchGucksLive: sams more then eagle takes
12:46 PM Loetmichel: IchGucksLive: Target 3001
12:46 PM HighInBC: is there a best practice in regards to pcb milling workflow? There seems to be multiple options.
12:47 PM IchGucksLive: HighInBC: it alway depends on routing
12:47 PM Loetmichel: i usually tell my EDA to do the drills first, then the insulation and the outline milling last.
12:47 PM Loetmichel: the rest is done by target3001
12:48 PM Loetmichel: :-)
12:48 PM HighInBC: IchGucksLive: I was thinking more along the lines of which software to use, I worded the question poorly
12:48 PM HighInBC: I just broke down and built a windoze box, if only for photoshop and fusion 360, but I am more a linux guy
12:49 PM Loetmichel: HighInBC: as far as i know target3001 runs well in a wine enviroment
12:49 PM IchGucksLive: eagle and tagret makes your lines to gcode
12:49 PM HighInBC: nice
12:49 PM Loetmichel: but you could also use eagle, i think there is an ULP for making Gcode for insulation millling.
12:49 PM HighInBC: Loetmichel: I have done that so far, the eagle/ULP
12:49 PM Loetmichel: no idea how comfortable it is though, i HATE eagle.
12:50 PM IchGucksLive: its now inside since 5x
12:50 PM HighInBC: need to figure out z probing and mapping still
12:50 PM Loetmichel: mapping?
12:50 PM Loetmichel: what for?
12:50 PM HighInBC: mapping the Z axis to the gcode
12:50 PM Loetmichel: why?
12:50 PM HighInBC: for warped pcb blanks
12:50 PM Loetmichel: ah
12:50 PM Loetmichel: wrong start.
12:50 PM HighInBC: you not doing z axis compensation?
12:50 PM IchGucksLive: http://pcbgcode.org/list.php?12
12:51 PM Loetmichel: use a bit of double sided tape on a faced off "waste block" or a vacuum table
12:51 PM Loetmichel: no need to correct for pcb warp then
12:51 PM HighInBC: interesting
12:51 PM HighInBC: perhaps only an issue for larger boards then
12:51 PM Loetmichel: thats whats so loud in the first vid. the hoover running the vacuum table.
12:52 PM IchGucksLive: i go as deep as it takes
12:52 PM Loetmichel: not the machine itself
12:52 PM IchGucksLive: 0.3mm
12:52 PM IchGucksLive: on a wood pice flaten mount
12:52 PM Loetmichel: HighInBC: the larger the board the more force is applied with the vacuum table
12:53 PM * JT-Shop finally found the enable ONVIF checkbox for the camera... maybe now it will work
12:53 PM Loetmichel: there is NO pcb that could stay bent when the table starts pulling it in
12:53 PM HighInBC: I have double sided tape, but no vacuum table
12:55 PM Loetmichel: i have also made pretty good experience with a block of MDF as waste board, some rosin dissolved in alcohol painted on it after facing off, then apply heat, press the PCB on, wait for it to cool.
12:55 PM Loetmichel: glued on like crazy
12:55 PM Loetmichel: then you can mill to your hearts content.
12:55 PM Loetmichel: and afterwards: just heat the PCB again
12:55 PM Loetmichel: and it even has a flux coating now ;)
12:55 PM HighInBC: neat trick
12:56 PM Loetmichel: if you ever used rosin for soldering you know how sticky that stuff is
12:57 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: FWIW, the surfaces of MDF are compressed to 125 PSI. I spoke to the chemist at a MDF mfr plant =)
12:57 PM Loetmichel: Jymmm: so?
12:57 PM Loetmichel: ah, you mean for a vacuum table?
12:58 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: It's why MDF surfaces can be tapped and threaded =)
12:58 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: That too =)
12:58 PM Loetmichel: i usually mill off the upper layer from both sides when using it as a vacuum table "topping"
12:58 PM Loetmichel: so it lets air thru
12:59 PM gloops: you can use masking tape and superglue
12:59 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: I wouldn't, the surfaces are so dense, and all you are doing is exposing the innererds that are pourous.
12:59 PM Loetmichel: Jymmm: thats the idea when using as a waste board on a vacuum table
12:59 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: It does accept PU VERY well though, for water proofing.
12:59 PM Loetmichel: the air still has to go thru
01:00 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: and I hear the bondo works excellent for sealing the edges for painting
01:01 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: Usually what I've seen that works best is a cross and hole in the middle
01:02 PM Loetmichel: Jymmm: like this: https://youtu.be/XJmBF8HzWoc
01:04 PM Loetmichel: ... and thats just 5mm MDF millled down a few 10th mm on each side on top of THAT: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8217&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:05 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8214&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:07 PM Jymmm: The issue with that as you make cuts, there is less and less vaccum hold. Also, if you are cutting less than a full sheet, this allowed the same grip even on smaller pieces.
01:09 PM IchGucksLive: i did relise that pcb-gcode 3.6.4 is out installed it and Whow improved realy
01:10 PM Loetmichel: Jymmm: interestingly the big shopvac i had there had NO problem at all to pull -0.3 bar with all of that 1000*600mm vacuum table open
01:11 PM Loetmichel: so it still holds anything tight even WHEN parts are open
01:14 PM IchGucksLive: isent thee also a thin 0,3mm plastik sheet with only one direction micro vents
01:14 PM Jymmm: Loetmichel: Ok, cool. I cna't find the photo right now, but if you do have a project and issues come up let me know, I'll draw it out if I have to. It basically allows more surface are for the vacuum to grip with no loss.
01:14 PM IchGucksLive: so it is always closed and you can mill down
01:16 PM IchGucksLive: how do you get the pcb straigt on a vaccum
01:16 PM IchGucksLive: marks on it
01:42 PM Jymmm: Dumb question... I have an Altoids tin, how would I determine the corner radius? https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/aplusautomation/vendorimages/cc0dc60f-8a1e-49a5-a80d-7f352978aa66.jpg._CB278075958__SL300__.jpg
01:42 PM jdh: radius gauge
01:43 PM Jymmm: dont have one, is there some other way by chance?
01:43 PM cradek: check to see if you happen to have a coin or other round object that matches it, and measure the diameter of that
01:43 PM jdh: or check adafruit. she likes tins
01:43 PM cradek: it's hard to directly measure
01:44 PM cradek: (also I wouldn't expect it to be particularly round)
01:44 PM Jymmm: jdh: good idea
01:44 PM Jymmm: cradek: I tried a few coins, and like you said, a tad difficult, guess I'll just draw up a guage
01:45 PM Jymmm: jdh: Tag! https://www.adafruit.com/product/97
01:46 PM Jymmm: jdh: .55" corner radius
01:46 PM Jymmm: well, not "altoids" brand, but still
01:47 PM IchGucksLive: im off gn8
01:47 PM jdh: she rocks. arduinos and all
01:47 PM Jymmm: oh wait, doesn't say if it's the the lid or the base =(
01:47 PM Jymmm: jdh: Yeah, I'm liking the ESP8266's myself
01:48 PM Jymmm: ESP8266-12 specifically
01:49 PM Jymmm: jdh: and the same price as arduino without the wifi ironically
01:56 PM jdh: I meant in spite of the duinos
01:56 PM Jymmm: jdh: oh, haha. I like em, you must like pi's better?
01:57 PM jdh: no. just a lot of duino haters
01:57 PM Jymmm: jdh: Eh, fuck em if they can't take a joke
01:58 PM Jymmm: ;)
01:58 PM jdh: way diff use cases for pi/avr
02:00 PM Jymmm: oh sure
02:07 PM gloops: whats the chances of a barn find electric drill still working - being able to be kept working or gotten working? at least 50 year old
02:08 PM Jymmm: gloops: manual, horse, steam, or electric powered?
02:09 PM Tom_L: hamster
02:09 PM gloops: electric - like an old wolf drill
02:10 PM Jymmm: Tom_L: lol
02:10 PM gloops: its in an interesting old press, but the press seems to have been built to mount it, not any drill
02:11 PM gloops: they would be the old brass bushes i reckon?
02:11 PM gloops: windings probably gone anyway
02:19 PM gloops: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Rotax-Pillar-drill/253218879893?
02:22 PM ziper: its probably ok
02:22 PM ziper: maybe brushes
02:23 PM gloops: its a shame it didnt have a shaft with pulley, thats a quaint old machine
02:24 PM ziper: bearings and bushings probably not too great
02:26 PM gloops: will be fixed speed as well
03:10 PM roycroft: do any of you folks who have cnc routers use spiral up/down bits?
03:11 PM roycroft: and if so, are there any brand recommendations that work well and last a long time?
03:18 PM Jymmm: roycroft: CMT
03:18 PM Jymmm: roycroft: diamter? 1/4" ???
03:19 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: spiral flutes? Have a pic to be sure we know what you mean?
03:19 PM gregcnc: compression type maybe
03:19 PM Jymmm: roycroft: Here's 1/8" downcut... https://www.amazon.com/CMT-192-001-11-Carbide-Downcut-Diameter/dp/B000P4NQGQ
03:19 PM Jymmm: roycroft: ... with 1/4" shank
03:20 PM Jymmm: roycroft: are you doing wood? plastic?
03:23 PM roycroft: 5/16"
03:23 PM roycroft: yes, compression cut
03:23 PM roycroft: downcut and upcut both
03:23 PM gregcnc: up/downs are also called compression, to prevent chipping both top and bottom face
03:23 PM roycroft: right
03:23 PM roycroft: i'm going to be routing dovetails in plywood
03:23 PM roycroft: baltic birch plywood
03:23 PM roycroft: tearout is a pretty big problem
03:24 PM roycroft: i have an upcut bit that works pretty well, but i still get a little tearout on the ends
03:24 PM Jymmm: roycroft: downcut works great for that, just realize that it semi- "packs" the sawdust, which actually kinda help s to hold the piece in place
03:24 PM roycroft: it's not a really big problem, as i cut the dovetails a little deep and then sand flush after assembly
03:24 PM roycroft: these are through cuts, so packing is not an issue
03:25 PM roycroft: the biggest tearout is at the base of the dovetails (tip of the cutter), which is why i am using an upcut bit now
03:25 PM Jymmm: roycroft: and try a geen kitchen scrubby to cleaning up the stragglies instead of sanding
03:25 PM Jymmm: green
03:25 PM roycroft: that pretty much completely eliminates tearout at the base
03:26 PM roycroft: so it seems to me that an up/down (compression) bit would be ideal
03:26 PM _methods: if you're really worried about tearout try taping where you're going to do the dovetails
03:26 PM _methods: especially on plywood
03:26 PM _methods: which loves to tearout
03:26 PM Jymmm: roycroft: If you use a downcut, on a sacraficial base, so you are cutting intot he base ever so slightly, it should eliminated that
03:27 PM roycroft: i can also sandwich the work between some sacrificial pieces
03:27 PM _methods: ^^
03:27 PM _methods: that works too
03:27 PM roycroft: all of that adds time though, which is expense
03:27 PM _methods: tape is super cheap though
03:27 PM roycroft: it's easier to just stuff a board in the jig than to make a sandwich to stuff in the jig
03:27 PM _methods: and comes right off not sure how many pieces you're doing
03:27 PM roycroft: plus, routing through the sandwich takes longer
03:28 PM roycroft: small production runs - ~30 at a go
03:28 PM Jymmm: roycroft: downscut + sacraficial base works
03:28 PM roycroft: this is not a cnc application
03:28 PM roycroft: i'm using a dovetail jig
03:28 PM roycroft: the work is mounted vertically, and the router cuts down from above (edge of the board)
03:29 PM _methods: yeah porter cable dovetail jig
03:29 PM roycroft: i have a leigh d4 pro
03:29 PM roycroft: but same idea
03:29 PM _methods: nice
03:29 PM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jqmg5-KAhU
03:30 PM sadisticroot: This CMM has some weird ass servo amps
03:30 PM sadisticroot: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5fQTi1W868OaGdqSVJENEplMEE/view?usp=sharing
03:30 PM sadisticroot: I think they work via tach . . .
03:31 PM gregcnc: normal dc servo amps
03:31 PM roycroft: i have to climb cut to avoid tearout
03:31 PM roycroft: so it's always fun using that jig
03:32 PM roycroft: climb cutting is not a problem per se, but when the spindle is hand-held it gets a bit trickier
03:34 PM CaptHindsight: sadisticroot: looks like speed to voltage tachometer
03:34 PM roycroft: all the woodworking folks i talk to just day "don't cut dovetails in plywood"
03:34 PM roycroft: which is not the correct answer :)
03:35 PM CaptHindsight: woodworkers are wimps :)
03:35 PM roycroft: the ones who try to dissuade me because of the technical challenges i can respect
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: don't let anyway get in the way of your dreams
03:36 PM roycroft: the ones who think it's a violation of some kind of craftsman's law can go jump in a lake
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: ignore the nay sayers
03:36 PM roycroft: i am
03:36 PM gregcnc: dovetail bits seem to have straight flutes
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: anyway/anyone
03:36 PM roycroft: in fact, the ones who say it's technically impossible only ispire me to find a good solution
03:37 PM XXCoder: tiny company of 2 person just won contract to fix PR electric system. 300 million bucks.
03:37 PM roycroft: i've had good results with the spiral upcut bit
03:37 PM XXCoder: I wonder if they would be even remotely close to success on doing that
03:37 PM roycroft: the tearout at the base of the pins is all but completely eliminated
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: have a link? Did you see the film "War Dogs"?
03:38 PM roycroft: and with a straight flute bit tearout is horrible, especially in baltic birch
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2005151/ sound familiar?
03:39 PM XXCoder: interesting
03:39 PM XXCoder: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/small-montana-firm-lands-puerto-ricos-biggest-contract-to-get-the-power-back-on/2017/10/23/31cccc3e-b4d6-11e7-9e58-e6288544af98_story.html
03:39 PM gregcnc: you have spiral flute doevtails?
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: heh "Whitefish Energy is primarily financed by a private-equity fund founded and run by a prominent Trump donor"
03:42 PM roycroft: and btw, i wish to register a complaint
03:42 PM XXCoder: indeed.
03:42 PM roycroft: people who quote statistics using mismatched units in order to make a point should be banished from the planet
03:43 PM XXCoder: roycroft: you know of endmill that have flutes going both ways so thwere is no tearout both sides?
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: 68% are probably made up anyway
03:43 PM roycroft: a democratic pundit was complaining about the proposed tax bill, saying that "average workers will take home $8/week more after the tax cuts, while the average wealthy 1%er will get $170 million in tax cuts over 10 years"
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: math is hard
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: make brain hurt
03:44 PM roycroft: and actually, the comparison could have been $4000 over 10 yers vs. $170 million over 10 years and the comparison would be just as dramatic and valid
03:44 PM roycroft: but then i read a "technical review" of an up/down router bit
03:45 PM CaptHindsight: I hear what you are saying but the reporter and the majority that read the story won't get it anyway
03:45 PM roycroft: the "reviewer" claimed that his "good" bits can cut 390 linear feet in the cnc router before getting too dull to work, while this one being reviewed only lasted 129 seconds
03:45 PM roycroft: come on
03:45 PM roycroft: how many feet did he route in 129 seconds?
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: 391 feet
03:46 PM roycroft: on can't even do a unit translation there
03:46 PM roycroft: one
03:46 PM XXCoder: yeah its to exerggate the difference. it is bad as is at 4k vs 170mil per 10 years, so it's truth. it's like ad for something "Only 2 dollars a day!" well thats 60 bucks a month lol
03:46 PM roycroft: not enough information
03:46 PM roycroft: anyway
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: it like comparing apples and taking your socks off
03:46 PM roycroft: i'll step down from the soapbox now
03:46 PM XXCoder: roy yeah what material also?
03:47 PM CaptHindsight: yes, failed to mention that the test was performed on granite
03:47 PM XXCoder: or balsa wood lol
03:47 PM roycroft: even mdf vs. pine vs. maple would make a big difference
03:47 PM roycroft: i'm assuming the reviewer was using the same material when making the comparison
03:48 PM roycroft: if not, then it's even more invalid
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: many people assume that you are in their heads (mind)
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: which frightens me
03:48 PM gloops: 60m/min, it is possible
03:48 PM roycroft: except it's already completely invalid, so it really can't be more invalid than completely invalid
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: if you've looked at any public school homework it becomes clear where the problem comes from
03:49 PM XXCoder: yep too much school budget cuts
03:49 PM XXCoder: and test-based schooling sucks
03:49 PM XXCoder: used to have tests only sometimes, now its what weekly?
03:50 PM CaptHindsight: I'm pretty sure the current correct answer to what is heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers is now a pound of lead.
03:50 PM gloops: they should focus on the 3 Rs
03:50 PM gloops: readin ritin and rithmetic
03:51 PM gregcnc: coursework has to allow no child to be left behind
03:52 PM gloops: and no child to get ahead
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: no one comes out whole again
03:52 PM XXCoder: know what I want?
03:52 PM XXCoder: critical thinking skills
03:52 PM XXCoder: research skills
03:53 PM gregcnc: triple cheese burger?
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: too dangerous
03:53 PM gloops: i dont think that can be taught
03:53 PM XXCoder: coursework to show how to sort fiction from reality
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: like creativity
03:53 PM XXCoder: sure it can be taught
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: stop makin trouble and go with the flow
03:53 PM gregcnc: i think that alone will be a huge problem, reality and fiction are getting completely lost on kids
03:54 PM gloops: youre either a critical thinker or you arent, its a personality hing
03:54 PM XXCoder: research skills is also very critical. stupid flat eathers and antivaxxers is blooming
03:54 PM CaptHindsight: nah AI :)
03:54 PM roycroft: a pound of feathers and a pound of lead weigh the same (when they right next to each other), but a pound of gold weigs less then either
03:54 PM gloops: i mean you cant teach someone to think out of the box
03:54 PM XXCoder: gloops: not true. I have seen people grow critical thinking skills
03:55 PM gloops: its how they think
03:55 PM gloops: how their brain works
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: people tend to start out with it
03:55 PM XXCoder: not really
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: it gets beaten out of you in the first few grades
03:55 PM gregcnc: my kids are under 10 and I have to constantly explain whats' real and what isn't. Maybe people don't bother?
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: along with curiosity and creativity
03:55 PM gregcnc: but i see they are learning
03:55 PM XXCoder: gregcnc: exactly. show how to figure things out
03:56 PM CaptHindsight: dangerous, please report for reeducation
03:56 PM gloops: if you look at slices of a brain from a genius and from a lesser thinker, they are quite different
03:57 PM XXCoder: so genius thinker is better?
03:57 PM gloops: a skeptic thinks in levels or tiers
03:57 PM gloops: i didnt say that did i
03:57 PM XXCoder: impiled with "lesser"
03:57 PM gregcnc: sure, there are traits that are inherited
03:57 PM gloops: if you are trained to analyse thought patterns from speech, you can see it
03:58 PM gloops: greg it isnt just inherited, it depends on the persons experiences as a child
03:58 PM XXCoder: gregcnc: yeah both genetics, development, and learned and taught skills all work together
03:58 PM gloops: you pose a statement - to a genius, he strips it down, 'cat in the basement' say
03:58 PM XXCoder: I have met people 30 or more points IQ below me with much better skills, expecially people skills
03:58 PM gregcnc: gloops I thought you were separating inherited vs learned
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: I was horrified years ago when I saw how half the book on Reading Comprehension was about making inferences
03:59 PM gloops: the genius goes from cat to - outer space in about 10 reductions
03:59 PM CaptHindsight: what a way to program kids
03:59 PM gloops: the normal person just talks about cats
03:59 PM CaptHindsight: and how great novels are somehow wrong now
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: predictability is what matters
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: lets not have the what is a "normal"person argument
04:01 PM gloops: when you look at the genius brain, his synaptic network is very fine, many junctions, many branches. his thought goes all over the place when it is triggered, to many areas of memory
04:04 PM gloops: i mean you can teach a system of mimicking this - a spider chart say
04:04 PM gloops: but you cannot make someone think like that
04:05 PM XXCoder: indeed thats why I also included body factor
04:05 PM gregcnc: so when will life get to the point were one can't learn enough in a lifetime to advance knowledge/tech/etc?
04:05 PM XXCoder: higher iq the higher chance person have learned a lot but not always
04:06 PM XXCoder: coworker of mine apparently has iq over 200
04:06 PM XXCoder: but he learned nothing, hates learning.
04:06 PM XXCoder: amazing machinist but knows essentally nothing else
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: thats being done with social engineering and making the gap between classes wider
04:07 PM XXCoder: "There is none as blind as one who refuses to see, none as deaf as one who refuses to hear"
04:07 PM gregcnc: that's exactly the feeling I get
04:07 PM gloops: maybe has a pretty deep take on social justice or whatever
04:07 PM gloops: rejects the values presented by authority, those would soon be anlaysed and discarded
04:08 PM XXCoder: I don't discard anything based on if it is from authority or not
04:08 PM XXCoder: I figure things independantly from that
04:09 PM gloops: well the general values upheld by the masses are put in place by the establishment, many would conclude anyway
04:09 PM gloops: that might not be necessarily bad - or good
04:10 PM XXCoder: if person in ultimate authority tells you water is wet
04:10 PM XXCoder: would you doubt it?
04:10 PM gloops: i would question his reason for telling me that
04:10 PM XXCoder: indeed
04:10 PM XXCoder: but it doesnt alter that water is, indeed, wet
04:11 PM gloops: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar
04:11 PM XXCoder: lol yep
04:16 PM gloops: look at some of the abstract reasoning tests to get into higher - higher education courses
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: Question #1: Why?
04:17 PM gloops: and different kinds of intelligence, you can be a maths genius and socially incompetent
04:18 PM gloops: a submarine commander needs to analyse masses of information and make situational judgement rapidly, incredibly difficult tests
04:19 PM gloops: yet maybe mediochre maths
04:19 PM CaptHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto does a pretty good job of explaining what happened in US schools over the years
04:19 PM Deejay: gn8
04:25 PM XXCoder: ehos
04:25 PM XXCoder: whoa
04:26 PM XXCoder: talk about bad eductaion, apparently one sub teacher duct taped 10 student mouths
04:26 PM XXCoder: kids is fine bu8t teacher is banned from campus now
04:28 PM gloops: XXCoder it probably wasnt as bad as it sounds
04:28 PM XXCoder: maybe. even if kids is fine, teacher actions is wrong anyway
04:30 PM SpeedEvil: https://i.imgur.com/cdQE8PE.jpg Parts for my new CNC machine.
04:30 PM SpeedEvil: (not really, test monitor stand)
04:30 PM gloops: they still used the stick when i was at school - i was after the times of the dunce cap though
04:30 PM gloops: although kids were sent to stand in the corner with the backs to everyone just the same -the cap
04:31 PM XXCoder: I belive parents and parents alone can do physical punishment. within heavy limits. teacher is BIG no
04:32 PM gloops: complicated matter
04:32 PM XXCoder: it surely is. thats why heavy limits on what teacher can do
04:32 PM gloops: but how does society fare in general for these liberal education postures?
04:32 PM gloops: crime is out of control
04:33 PM XXCoder: i live at highest crime city in washington
04:33 PM XXCoder: not much crime so far
04:33 PM gloops: there is no respect for anything or anyone
04:33 PM gloops: nothing is sacred, no consequences
04:33 PM XXCoder: nothing is sacred is good thing
04:34 PM gloops: is it?
04:34 PM XXCoder: yep
04:34 PM XXCoder: I rather have unanswerable questions that unquestable answers
04:34 PM gloops: like the anarchists cry - no Gods no Masters
04:35 PM XXCoder: *than
04:35 PM roycroft: crime is not out of control
04:35 PM gloops: unfortunately that leads to - no law, no order, no civilisation
04:35 PM XXCoder: if some goverment tells me that they cannot be questioned
04:35 PM XXCoder: I will question them
04:37 PM gloops: what about the noble lie?
04:37 PM roycroft: in 2016 crimes per 100,000 people in the us was at its lowest since 1966
04:38 PM XXCoder: roy yep. as % it is definitely decreasing
04:38 PM roycroft: violent crimes per 100,000 people were up slightly - 397.1/100,000 vs. 372.0/100,000 in 2014
04:38 PM XXCoder: numbers may be increasing but that is because population numbers is also growing
04:38 PM roycroft: but that's still near a historic low
04:38 PM roycroft: the last time it was below the 2014 number was in 1970
04:39 PM gloops: we've got to face it, the majority of people are simply incapable of understanding politics or ethics or just about anything else to a degree where they could be conidered to vote
04:39 PM XXCoder: them they them they
04:39 PM XXCoder: geez
04:39 PM gloops: considered competent to vote
04:39 PM XXCoder: there is no them
04:39 PM XXCoder: there is only us
04:39 PM XXCoder: laters gonna go work
04:40 PM gloops: this has been understood from the time of Plato
04:40 PM gloops: have a nice shift
04:41 PM roycroft: there are no real statistics that indicate that crime is increasing here
04:41 PM roycroft: only made up ones to further the fascist regime that is trying to take over the country
04:42 PM gloops: policing the crisis roycroft
04:42 PM gregcnc: gah 1000USD for engine mounts in a honda!
04:42 PM gloops: yes maybe
04:43 PM gloops: greg - breakers yard
04:43 PM roycroft: that's a lot of money for a little metal and a little rubber
04:43 PM sync: depdending on the mount it is quite a highly engineered piece
04:44 PM roycroft: sure, but $1000 engineered?
04:44 PM roycroft: that would be some pretty fancy engineering
04:44 PM roycroft: especially for a relatively cheap car
04:45 PM gloops: the wife had one of those ford Kas, theyre basically mounted on rubber, sterring, suspension the lot, the whole thing was shaking itself apart
04:45 PM sync: could be a nsx, it's not particularily cheap
04:46 PM sync: there are engine mounts that can change their stiffness electronically
04:46 PM sync: and a lot of them are filled with liquid now
05:07 PM Frank_20: guys; little question; how safe is it linuxcnc with a machine if my z axis only has home switch and a limit switch that goes to software instead of full estop hardware disconnection
05:07 PM Frank_20: thanks
05:27 PM Frank_10: :(
05:29 PM BeachBumPete: why don't you setup your home and limits to hardware disconnection if you are concerned about it. Having said that my VMC has full estop hardware disconnection and my CNC lathe build will be the same.
05:34 PM Frank_10: yes i had that setup but i had to change all limits wires and now im having some space issue on the cable chain; therefore i would like to narrow down the amoumt of wires; maybe i can attach a couple with zipties to the external side of the cable carrier (?)??)
06:59 PM andypugh: Well, it’s clearly not as safe as physically breaking a circuit, but then how dangerous is the machine
07:01 PM andypugh: Actually, it would be very unusual to have the limit switches also trigger an e-stop.
07:01 PM andypugh: (apart from anything else, it makes it very hard to recover from hitting a limit)
07:06 PM sync: there are some old machines like that
07:07 PM sync: and you had an estop override button to get out of it
07:07 PM malcom2073: The old supermax I used this week was like that
07:08 PM sync: in theory you could have up to three switches on an axis
07:08 PM malcom2073: hitting the limit would disable that axis entirely until you cleared it
07:08 PM ziper: gregcnc, thats including labor right?
07:08 PM sync: home, limit and estop
07:09 PM BeachBumPete: my Cincinatti Arrow 500 was and IS like that
07:09 PM BeachBumPete: I have a limit override button to jog off an axis limit
07:10 PM sync: we had a gildemeister lathe at the school iirc, that was really annoying
07:10 PM ziper: I don't know anything, do CNC machines ever come with manual controls, or is it all done with software inputs that go through the motors
07:10 PM sync: as they just had limit switches per axis
07:10 PM sync: so you could jog it into the estop
07:10 PM sync: as it could not tell which limit switch was hit
07:10 PM sync: just that one was hit
07:11 PM BeachBumPete: I would think it would be kinda obvious no?
07:11 PM sync: well, it is obvious, but you can still crank the wheel the wrong way
07:12 PM malcom2073: ziper: Old clausing kondias had handles on the servos
07:12 PM sync: and then you had to take the covers off and crank the axis back
07:12 PM malcom2073: So you could use it like a DRO, or CNC
07:12 PM sync: superbly annoying if it happened
07:13 PM BeachBumPete: honestly the way the linuxCNC limit and soft limit setup is configured I think I have had this happen like two times in the more than two years it has been operational. Both times were when I had the limits settings VERY close to the limits of actual travel. I moved them in very slightly and now it has not happened in quite some time.
07:14 PM malcom2073: BeachBumPete: I've had it happen on slower computers, where it hits the limit, but doesn't stop the machine before crashing
07:14 PM malcom2073: Usually on systems on which the cpu is pegged trying to render the backplot heh
07:15 PM malcom2073: Oh you are talking about soft limits
07:15 PM BeachBumPete: malcom2073 in a software limit setup this could happen I suppose sure
07:15 PM malcom2073: sorry I thought you were talking hardware
07:16 PM BeachBumPete: well I was actually.... my machine has and had hard limits that kill all power to the drives etc
07:16 PM malcom2073: yeah that's what I do now to prevent the aforementioned crashes
07:17 PM BeachBumPete: the question was posed how important do people think it is if the limits were software based
07:17 PM malcom2073: yeah, he was asking about limit switches that go to software estops, which is where I've seen issues
07:19 PM sync: I think I would probably indexhome onto the glass scale and just have switches that throw hardware estops
07:20 PM sync: that way you have the least amount of work to wire and still have the safety
07:20 PM ziper: malcom2073, was the feel on them bad?
07:21 PM malcom2073: ziper: Nope, they're servo so they felt normal
07:21 PM malcom2073: I imagine it would be hell on a stepper system, but servos they can just turn off
07:22 PM ziper: oh, right
07:57 PM andypugh: Tonights prokect, DIY back-spotfacer: https://photos.app.goo.gl/eqhpLMJ118kcQnmk2
07:58 PM andypugh: Tip geometry isn’t all that it could be, I admit.
08:00 PM Frank_10: im still amazed at how much possibilities a cnc machines opens up
08:01 PM Frank_10: i've finished my cnc router about 2 months ago and i still havent had time to make a fun project
08:01 PM Frank_10: project for fun*
08:02 PM MarcelineVQ: hmm interesting tool
08:06 PM hazzy: looks good andypugh
08:06 PM andypugh: You poke the shank down the hole, screw on the cutter with the teeth up, then pull on the shank to spot-face the back side.
08:07 PM andypugh: You can buy them, but they are very expensive.
08:07 PM MarcelineVQ: yeah, watchin a vid of a power feed one here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhhKtS_QLoU
08:07 PM hazzy: did you make it from W1 (silver steel across the pond?) or something more fawncy?
08:07 PM andypugh: Silver Steel.
08:27 PM ziper: how much should I expect a cnc 3 axis retrofit to cost
08:30 PM skunkworks: how long is a rope?
08:30 PM skunkworks: what can you reuse? servos? servo drives?
08:31 PM Tom_L: expect it to cost more than you expect
08:31 PM malcom2073: I retrofitted my knee mill with steppers for under $700. That being said, I could've done it a different way and had it cost $2-3k
08:40 PM Tom_L: but are you sad you went the cheap route?
08:40 PM Tom_L: or does it perform the way you expected
08:53 PM ziper: yeah I know its a dumb question
08:53 PM malcom2073: I am not sad, no
08:54 PM malcom2073: It performs perfectly fine, the only drawback is it runs slower than it otherwise would've been able to
08:54 PM malcom2073: but I cut slow anyway
08:54 PM malcom2073: Not doing production work heh
09:06 PM BeachBumPete: damn cheapazz HF dead Blow hammer works great ;)
09:09 PM roycroft: so i did some more experimenting with the router
09:09 PM roycroft: tape is useless in preventing tearout
09:09 PM roycroft: utterly useless
09:10 PM roycroft: all i have for backing boards is 1/2" thick, which is rather excessive, i think
09:10 PM malcom2073: roycroft: You try either a downward spiral bit, or spoilboard on *top* of the workpiece?
09:10 PM roycroft: i used an upward spiral bit
09:10 PM roycroft: the tearout is mainly at the bottom of the cut - the tip of the bit
09:10 PM CaptHindsight: ziper: I'll match anyone's price + $10K
09:10 PM malcom2073: Oh really
09:10 PM roycroft: i'll get some 1/4" masonite tomorrow
09:10 PM roycroft: and make some backing boards out of that
09:11 PM roycroft: i think a compression bit is probably the ticket to best success
09:11 PM roycroft: but compression bits are ~$50
09:11 PM roycroft: and an upcut spiral bit ~$20
09:11 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: you tried it with tape and what type of bit?
09:11 PM roycroft: tape and an upcut spiral bit
09:12 PM roycroft: but all the tearout was entering the board
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: have pics of the carnage?
09:12 PM roycroft: i have a backing board behind it
09:12 PM roycroft: no
09:12 PM roycroft: i'll try with some masonite tomorrow
09:12 PM roycroft: and if there's still tearout i'll take pics of the whole setup
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: should make a nice story with pics
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: proof is in the pudding
09:13 PM roycroft: another thing i might try is scoring the cutline before i machine it
09:13 PM roycroft: i want to avoid that, since the score line would show on the finished product
09:13 PM roycroft: well
09:13 PM roycroft: on 1/2 of it
09:13 PM roycroft: when i cut the tails the work has the outer face towards the jig
09:14 PM roycroft: and when i cut the pins the work has the outer face away from the jig
09:14 PM roycroft: so the score line on the tails would be invisible
09:14 PM roycroft: but visible on the pins
09:14 PM roycroft: baltic birch is a really difficult plywood to work with
09:15 PM roycroft: the plies are really thin - 12mm baltic birch plywood has 9 plies
09:15 PM roycroft: and the glue is really brittle
09:15 PM roycroft: but it's relatively cheap, looks nice, and is void-free
09:16 PM roycroft: 1/2" domestic hardwood plywood generally has 7 plies
09:17 PM roycroft: i had better success using a backing board and a "fronting" board in the past, compared to taping it today
09:17 PM roycroft: i wanted to try taping - it is pretty successful when cutting on a tablesaw
09:18 PM SpeedEvil: roycroft: spiral up/down bits are cheapish
09:18 PM roycroft: and is cheaper than using backing boards
09:18 PM roycroft: the ones i've found are ~$50 and up
09:18 PM roycroft: i need 5/16"
09:19 PM roycroft: and while i get the most tearout cutting the pins, i can only use a straight bit for the pins - i need an 8 degree dovetail bit for the tails
09:19 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2pcs-D6x25x50L-2-Flute-HRC55-Up-Down-Cut-Solid-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bit-Wood-Endmill-Tungsten/32748562483.html
09:19 PM SpeedEvil: Ah - that's 1/4
09:19 PM roycroft: and i do get a little tearout on the tails, although in a sandwich i get zero tearout
09:19 PM roycroft: yeah, 1/4" is cheaper
09:19 PM roycroft: 5/16" is a lot more expensive
09:19 PM roycroft: and that's what my jig requires
09:20 PM roycroft: i could just do finger joints for this and life would be a lot easier
09:20 PM roycroft: but dovetails look nice
09:20 PM BeachBumPete: Damn this is a nice hammer ;)
09:20 PM roycroft: and i *should* be able to sort it out
09:20 PM roycroft: did you get it from nasa, beachbumpete?
09:21 PM roycroft: and did it cost $800 originally?
09:21 PM MarcelineVQ: gold plated latinum deadblow hammer
09:21 PM BeachBumPete: no HF $8.69
09:21 PM roycroft: oh
09:21 PM roycroft: well
09:21 PM BeachBumPete: great for smashin' parts down onto parallels
09:22 PM roycroft: you can wrap the handle in carbon fiber and sell it to nasa for $800 :)
09:22 PM roycroft: they're just down the road from you, aren't they?
09:22 PM BeachBumPete: I thought that was SpaceX down the road here
09:22 PM roycroft: oh, is it the one with yellow plastic on one end and rubber on the other end?
09:23 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/8x35mm-UP-DOWN-Cut-Two-Flutes-Spiral-Carbide-Mill-Tool-Cutters-for-CNC-Router-Compression-Wood/32803742531.html - oh, ths'ts not bad
09:23 PM SpeedEvil: I suspect this is not 8.00mm
09:23 PM roycroft: it's not
09:23 PM roycroft: it's 5/16"
09:23 PM SpeedEvil: indeed
09:23 PM roycroft: but i can probably compensate
09:23 PM roycroft: the jig can be micro-adjusted for the pins at a granularity of ~0.001"
09:23 PM BeachBumPete: no I actually have that one tho
09:23 PM roycroft: i can't make a 1/4" bit work
09:24 PM roycroft: but an 8mm i probably could
09:24 PM MarcelineVQ: 8mm is awfully close
09:24 PM BeachBumPete: I bought it for the shop but I ended up taking it to work with me like many of my other tools so that is why I got this HF special
09:24 PM roycroft: i have several of those, beachbumpete
09:24 PM roycroft: i love whacking things with them
09:24 PM BeachBumPete: great whackers
09:24 PM roycroft: the way my jig works, i cut the tails first, using the dovetail bit
09:24 PM roycroft: then i dial in the pins to fit the tails perfectly
09:25 PM roycroft: the yellow plastic and rubber one is my mill hammer
09:25 PM roycroft: i whack the drawbar with the plastic end
09:25 PM roycroft: and whack the work down on the parallels with the rubber end
09:26 PM roycroft: but i have 2 or three other of that hammer
09:26 PM roycroft: i don't like walking around to get commonly used tools
09:26 PM roycroft: i'd rather buy workstation-specific tools to save time
09:27 PM BeachBumPete: I got the dual one at HD I think did not see it at HF or I would have gotten that one
09:27 PM roycroft: i have a bunch of hf hammers
09:27 PM SpeedEvil: roycroft: I mean I don't believe it's actually 8mm, and is probably 5/16ths
09:27 PM SpeedEvil: I may be wrong
09:27 PM roycroft: close enough that it would work
09:28 PM roycroft: 0.3150" 0.3125"
09:28 PM roycroft: 25 tenths is close enough :)
09:29 PM roycroft: close enough that i have a 5/16" to 1/2" collet reducer in a router that i use for 8mm bits
09:29 PM roycroft: and i haven't had a bit fly out and put my eye out yet
09:29 PM roycroft: and they slide in the adapters just fine
09:30 PM roycroft: i hate those adapters, though, but i found out today that the 8mm collet for a different model porter-cable router fis my routers, so i ordered a couple of those collets
09:30 PM roycroft: adapters will go away soon
09:31 PM roycroft: most people use 1/4" shank router bits for what i'm doing, but they vibrate too much and cause even more tearout than i'm getting
09:31 PM roycroft: so i got 8mm shank bits, and could not be happier
09:41 PM CaptHindsight: I have a few hunks of metal from HF. Some resemble screw drivers, sockets, extensions etc
09:49 PM BeachBumPete: no metal here ;)
09:52 PM roycroft: you can get pot metal cheaper by just wandering down the street and picking up random discarded items, capthindsight
09:53 PM roycroft: and it will generally be of better quality than hf pot metal
09:53 PM BeachBumPete: Oh I almost forgot I also bought a fish tape so I can install my new wall mount surround sound speakers
09:54 PM roycroft: that's another thing to get from hf
09:54 PM roycroft: i usually cut fish tapes into short pieces to do what i need to do for the job at hand
09:55 PM roycroft: and hf "retail" fish tapes are usually cheaper than buying bulk fish tape coils
09:55 PM roycroft: and work as well for one-off things
10:25 PM hazzy: I made a 6.5mm collet for the tapping head: https://www.instagram.com/p/BaplOy6HxTQ/
10:25 PM hazzy: Pretty easy, now I need to make a whole set
10:27 PM hazzy: I made it out of W1, think there is any point in hardening and tempering?
10:29 PM MarcelineVQ: depends if you're gonna use these hard enough for slipping to occur would probably mar them soft. I'd be more worried about warping them during the process :X
10:32 PM hazzy: Yeah, I am thinking it is not worth it, given I can make a new one in about twice the time it would take to harden, and they probably won't see that much use anyway
10:33 PM hazzy: Now if the cylindrical grinder were running ...
10:33 PM MarcelineVQ: precision grinders are really quite neat
10:34 PM hazzy: they are indeed!
10:35 PM MarcelineVQ: the variety of material removal you can find in a shop is cool, edm, grinding, arc/gas gouging, the various plastic shearing mills and lathes do
10:36 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_idea.jpg
10:36 PM Tom_L: thoughts?
10:36 PM MarcelineVQ: is that pillar fixed?
10:36 PM Tom_L: it will be
10:36 PM BeachBumPete: C channel?
10:36 PM Tom_L: jup
10:37 PM Tom_L: i'll add a brace behind Z
10:37 PM hazzy: What size is the column channel?
10:37 PM Tom_L: 6"
10:37 PM BeachBumPete: I had a BIG piece of that in my shop in TN I got rid of
10:37 PM MarcelineVQ: heck of a thing, welding that without tilting it, gonna bolt?
10:37 PM Tom_L: 10 on the base
10:37 PM Tom_L: MarcelineVQ i considered shims for the rails if it's not exact which it won't be
10:38 PM Tom_L: may have my bud mill the surfaces flat
10:38 PM BeachBumPete: if you weld a plate inside the base of the column and then bolt to it you can grind/shim to get it square
10:38 PM hazzy: So that is like a 6" on the column? That will be pretty flexible. A tubular section would be much better
10:38 PM Tom_L: you think?
10:39 PM BeachBumPete: I was actually going to build something like that at one point
10:39 PM Tom_L: hazzy, like this? http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Mill_base.jpg
10:39 PM hazzy: Yes
10:39 PM Tom_L: 2" thickwall tube
10:39 PM hazzy: I think that would be many times stiffer
10:39 PM BeachBumPete: I would make the column from thick walled tube
10:40 PM BeachBumPete: a single piece of thick walled tube
10:40 PM Tom_L: what about using C on the base and square on the riser?
10:40 PM Tom_L: BeachBumPete i'm gonna use what i can find at the scrap yard
10:40 PM Tom_L: and adjust the model acordingly
10:40 PM BeachBumPete: I know that the mini Fadal that fellow on youtube builds uses a thick walled tube for the column
10:41 PM BeachBumPete: why material like this is not all that expensive really
10:41 PM CaptHindsight: yeah the Z needs some support
10:41 PM Tom_L: yeah i know, i just haven't added it yet
10:41 PM Tom_L: just started this this evening...
10:42 PM BeachBumPete: if you use a thick walled tube for the column you can also stuff it with EG for even better rigidity and less ringing/vibes
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: oh man you left out or sortsa stuff!! :)
10:42 PM Tom_L: no kidding
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: yeah even HF pot metal is poor quality
10:44 PM CaptHindsight: gloops is building a similar router/mill
10:44 PM BeachBumPete: I have a HF 12 ton shop press works just fine for years now. I also have a larger HF roll around tool box that is quite decent
10:44 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I thought you might be sharing his plans
10:44 PM Tom_L: naw, i didn't even know he was doing one
10:45 PM CaptHindsight: he's suing 50mm tube as well and 16mm supported rails
10:45 PM BeachBumPete: there is a couple builds like this on CNCzone
10:45 PM CaptHindsight: suing/using
10:45 PM MarcelineVQ: he's working on a two-X-motor gantry
10:45 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight that's quite a bit smaller
10:45 PM Tom_L: the tube
10:46 PM Tom_L: i don't wanna deal with a gantry
10:46 PM CaptHindsight: 50mm with ~2.5mm walls
10:46 PM hazzy: Tom_L: just did a back of the envelope calc to compare C channel to HSS both 6" x 3" x .375" the HSS is about 15 times as stiff !!!
10:46 PM Tom_L: i wonder if the z rails would be stiffer on the sides of the tubes instead of the front
10:47 PM Tom_L: or are the slides fairly uniform as far as loading
10:47 PM CaptHindsight: oohh Catia fancy :)
10:48 PM Tom_L: i'm just quicker in it than sw
10:48 PM hazzy: I like the idea of butting the rails on the side, gains you some room too
10:48 PM Tom_L: i think the load would be supported better there maybe
10:48 PM Tom_L: maybe make a C to fit over both sides
10:48 PM Tom_L: from plate or something
10:48 PM hazzy: It seems like that to me too, but I have never seen them mounted like that
10:49 PM Tom_L: maybe nobody thought of it :)
10:49 PM Tom_L: so you're saying the 2" tube is stronger than the C by quite a bit?
10:50 PM Tom_L: the tube is .179 thickwall
10:50 PM CaptHindsight: https://ibin.co/2eWjnYtOrXq9.jpg reinforced works even better
10:50 PM hazzy: I ran the calc for 6" X 3" tube, which would be a about like your three 2X2 tubes, so yes
10:52 PM Tom_L: what about using the C on the base and the tube on the upright?
10:52 PM hazzy: I think the reason the rails are usually mounted "flat" is because it is easier to align them that way, on the side you'd have to shim
10:53 PM Tom_L: yeah
10:53 PM Tom_L: there's always tradeoffs
10:53 PM hazzy: Same thing, the c will be significantly less stiff
10:53 PM Tom_L: i'm just looking for something a little beefier than my sherline
10:53 PM Tom_L: so just about anything would do
10:53 PM hazzy: Not hard to beat a sherline!
10:54 PM rue_mohr: :)
10:54 PM Tom_L: i know, i've done quite a bit with it though
10:54 PM rue_mohr: I might go back to the idea of the plate (or C channel ) for my base and the I beam for the upright
10:55 PM rue_mohr: I have a peice of 1/2" plate for a base, but its not that big
10:55 PM rue_mohr: but I'm quite pondering how to make box ways
10:56 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.mech.utah.edu/~me7960/lectures/Topic14-DesignOfMachineStructures.pdf
10:56 PM rue_mohr: I'v been told that filling the upright of a drillpress with concrete makes a huge diffrence
10:57 PM rue_mohr: dont know if I'm sold
10:57 PM hazzy: If you wanted to get creative, make wood forms and cast the base and column from epoxy granite. Embed inserts for mounting the rals etc ....
10:57 PM hazzy: It would be ridged!
10:57 PM rue_mohr: I was pondrigng that or concrete
10:58 PM rue_mohr: but then I countered with "1mm bits running at 12k" and the fact it dosn't take much to break them
10:58 PM CaptHindsight: http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/64298/11/11_chapter%203.pdf DESIGN OF MACHINE TOOL STRUCTURE AND ANALYSIS
10:58 PM hazzy: There is an army manual somewhere that goes into some depth on making large machine tools from concrete
10:59 PM rue_mohr: I suppose they had to when metal got scarce
10:59 PM rue_mohr: funny you dont see pics of concrete machines around
10:59 PM hazzy: I guess, they used hydraulic rams form the ways
10:59 PM hazzy: Accurate and long wearing
10:59 PM rue_mohr: too bad the material damping chart dosn't say anything about concrete
11:00 PM CaptHindsight: oh just plain concrete?
11:00 PM rue_mohr: yea
11:00 PM CaptHindsight: there are a bunch of papers on them
11:00 PM rue_mohr: maybe with ... that plastic string stuff in it
11:00 PM CaptHindsight: there's on with a sub micron accuracy lathe made of concrete
11:01 PM CaptHindsight: on/one
11:02 PM rue_mohr: ooo foam core concrete
11:03 PM CaptHindsight: you've probably seen this one https://www.engineeringforchange.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/multimachine-concrete-lathe-ver-1-10.pdf
11:04 PM CaptHindsight: http://concretelathe.wikispaces.com/Current+Design+Drawings
11:04 PM hazzy: That looks thought out. I wonder if anybody has made one
11:05 PM rue_mohr: I dont see them mentioning preloaded concrete
11:05 PM hazzy: All I think I see are renderings :)
11:06 PM rue_mohr: I didn't know there was a manual for that concreted lathe
11:06 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238666967_Design_of_polimer_concrete_main_spindle_housing_for_cnc_lathe
11:09 PM CaptHindsight: I'm building a lathe with leftover parts from a project...
11:09 PM CaptHindsight: linear servos, air bearings, granite base
11:11 PM hazzy: hehe :)
11:11 PM hazzy: You must work on some neat projects!
11:12 PM CaptHindsight: custom machines, mostly materials deposition, inkjet, laser sintering etc kinda combos
11:13 PM CaptHindsight: linuxcnc controlled
11:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://imagebin.ca/v/2TZ69LKPSZ6P 5-axis
11:15 PM Tom_L: so how would you go about attaching the column to the base if i used 2" square tubing?
11:15 PM CaptHindsight: whats the base material?
11:16 PM Tom_L: either the 10" C or the 2" square tubing .179 wall
11:16 PM Tom_L: i thought about wedging a support piece between the 2 columns and have it be adjustable from behind them
11:17 PM Tom_L: that's why i left the base runners long in the back
11:17 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Mill_base.jpg
11:19 PM CaptHindsight: trying to find a link with supports for that
11:19 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_idea.jpg
11:19 PM Tom_L: i probably don't need all 4 slides on the upright either
11:19 PM Tom_L: you think?
11:19 PM Tom_L: 2 may be enough
11:20 PM Tom_L: although it would give it more support
11:22 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/70141239
11:23 PM CaptHindsight: but the channel and tubes won't be flat unless you make them so
11:24 PM CaptHindsight: https://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/7014447-23.jpg
11:25 PM MarcelineVQ: hot rolled sure won't
11:26 PM CaptHindsight: they make supported 90 deg angle plates for this,
11:26 PM CaptHindsight: can't find the link right now
11:26 PM CaptHindsight: or you can make them
11:26 PM Tom_L: https://www.opentip.com/search.php?cPath=20131&products_id=3377869&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjNe7pvCK1wIVCQ5pCh1gQQSMEAQYAiABEgIgkPD_BwE
11:26 PM Tom_L: wonder if that's worth a crap
11:27 PM MarcelineVQ: we'll get hazzy to make them for us once his grinder is working again :>
11:27 PM CaptHindsight: beef up the support
11:27 PM hazzy: What am I supposed to do? Better read the log :D
11:27 PM Tom_L: get with it man..
11:27 PM MarcelineVQ: grind precision angle plates
11:28 PM CaptHindsight: shhesh
11:28 PM Tom_L: https://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/6x5x4inslanp1.html?cmp=googleproducts&kw=6x5x4inslanp1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjNe7pvCK1wIVCQ5pCh1gQQSMEAQYBSABEgIUqfD_BwE
11:29 PM Tom_L: i'll just weld some 123 blocks behind each one :)
11:30 PM Tom_L: not sure what to do about a table yet
11:30 PM hazzy: Those chinaco angel plates tend to be more accurate than specified in my experience. I get them from MSC. Always impressed
11:30 PM MarcelineVQ: I saw abom use a big chinaco angle plate recently for a job so he thinks they're just fine
11:31 PM MarcelineVQ: mind you, the job was holding something for a press, not a precision holding :>
11:31 PM hazzy: Even the milled ones, not ground are quite decent. Squarer than a Chinese mill column for sure lol
11:33 PM CaptHindsight: bolt into place, cast epoxy granite around the Z to the base
11:33 PM CaptHindsight: I got a few from Shars for this
11:33 PM Tom_L: time to sleep here
11:34 PM CaptHindsight: same for their granite surface plates/ machine bases
11:34 PM CaptHindsight: good night
11:36 PM CaptHindsight: http://tombstonecity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/BP21-580x560.png lots of area for bolts :)
11:37 PM rue_mohr: wonderfull pdf's
11:37 PM rue_mohr: if I could only get at some of those 1910 books
11:38 PM CaptHindsight: some are on the Google
11:38 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight we used those on the toumbstones on a couple mills
11:39 PM CaptHindsight: parker, isel, or techno also sell 90deg supports
11:39 PM rue_mohr: ok, so my focus needs to be on sliders
11:39 PM CaptHindsight: they have holes for bolts on all sides
11:39 PM rue_mohr: and I ahve the mill, so I need to work out if there is a slotting cutter or not
11:40 PM CaptHindsight: they make it easy to bolt together a 3-axis Cartesian systems
11:40 PM CaptHindsight: sliders?
11:41 PM CaptHindsight: rue_mohr: this? https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Milling/Milling-Cutters/T-Slot-Cutters
11:42 PM CaptHindsight: oops https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/Milling/Milling-Cutters/T-Slot-Cutters?navid=12106241
11:42 PM CaptHindsight: T-slot cutter ^^
11:42 PM rue_mohr: well yea, I think there is one of those
11:42 PM rue_mohr: but I mean bigger ones
11:43 PM CaptHindsight: they have all different sizes there
11:43 PM rue_mohr: *&% it a $200 bit..
11:43 PM Tom_L: yeah those aren't cheap
11:43 PM CaptHindsight: real cutting tools aren't cheap
11:43 PM rue_mohr: I think I have a bigger one tho
11:43 PM rue_mohr: like 3"
11:44 PM CaptHindsight: you can find chineseium versions for less
11:44 PM MarcelineVQ: check how inserts compare if you're spending a fair bit
11:44 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/products/indexable-cutting/t-slot-cutter
11:45 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/products/cutting/milling-cutter?milling_cutter_category=T-Slot
11:45 PM CaptHindsight: the second are lower cost but not indexable
11:46 PM MarcelineVQ: when it comes to multi-tooth tools I'm a little paranoid about breakages which is why it's good to compare with inserts
11:48 PM MarcelineVQ: some day I'd like to braze some carbide at home though
11:52 PM rue_mohr: !?!?! I have NO pictures of my milling machine
11:52 PM rue_mohr: I should fix that this week and see whatcutters I ahve
11:52 PM rue_mohr: its nice to have your equip in your shop opposed to someone elses shop
11:53 PM rue_mohr: thought i took a pic of the bits
11:55 PM Tom_L: there used to be a MSC here but i think they left town
11:56 PM rue_mohr: msc?
11:56 PM Tom_L: tool supply
11:59 PM MarcelineVQ: reasonable prices, wonder what shipping is