#linuxcnc Logs
Oct 19 2017
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:13 AM IchGucksLive: hi
01:18 AM Gene_home: yo
01:43 AM RyanS: THCAD-10 or 300 for hypertherm with voltage divider ?
02:05 AM Deejay: moin
03:43 AM jelly-home is now known as jelly
04:44 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:01 AM enleth: archivist: do you think it makes sense to make a flipped parting tool holder for the front toolpost for a lathe that can reverse?
05:08 AM jthornton: morning
05:21 AM jthornton: cool you can get a 5" touch screen for the pi for $30
05:23 AM uwe__ is now known as uwe_
05:26 AM XXCoder: thats not bad
05:27 AM XXCoder: I saw one where guy with pi used eink screen
05:27 AM XXCoder: pretty awesome
05:29 AM jthornton: I like that I can ssh into the pi and work on it unlike the ardweenie which your working blind
05:30 AM XXCoder: latter you're working with no output screen?
05:31 AM jthornton: at the moment I'm just using ssh to work on it, this screen is the only one I have at the moment with a HDMI plug lol
05:34 AM jthornton: I added on to the roost yesterday a perpendicular one and none of the chickens would sit on it last night
05:35 AM jthornton: now when they came back in 3 are sitting on it
05:36 AM XXCoder: lol
05:36 AM XXCoder: it probably had to be appointed first or something ;)
05:48 AM XXCoder: https://youtu.be/lt-zvsGvtqg
06:00 AM archivist: enleth, could be, as the tendency is then push out so safer
06:03 AM enleth: archivist: I wonder why isn't it a thing then, for manual lathes
06:03 AM enleth: the holder would have to be kinda tall, compromising rigidity a bit, but, well
06:03 AM archivist: I suppose for normal a rear post is just as easy
06:05 AM enleth: if the lathe is equipped with one, sure
06:06 AM enleth: I mean, at least with an attachment point
06:07 AM archivist: the old capstan at work had front and rear posts http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_Richards_of_Burton_clockworks/P1010205.JPG
06:07 AM archivist: the rear is only just visible
06:08 AM archivist: that thing never failed to part if the tool was set correctly
06:09 AM enleth: I'm sure I've seen many manual lathes big enough to support a rear toolpost that just didn't have any means of attaching one because the flat top surface on the carriage didn't extend far enough back
06:10 AM archivist: they would have had to make the slides good enough to resist the lift I suppose
06:10 AM enleth: good point
06:13 AM enleth: sadly, I don't think any soviet bloc lathes I've seen had a rear post and that's probably what I'll be getting next year
06:14 AM enleth: cheap, relatively easy to find in decent condition and local
06:16 AM gloops: the soviets made good cameras
06:17 AM enleth: gloops: you can still get the best ones, newly made, there's a company that bought the Kiev Arsenal camera tooling
06:17 AM enleth: gloops: http://araxfoto.com/cameras/
06:18 AM enleth: $600 for a prism medium format camera that accepts Hasselblad backs
06:18 AM gloops: as they advanced on germany they dismantled the camera factories completely and sent them back to russia, zeiss and leica etc, but even with all the designs and documentation and tools, they still didnt quite manage to make an accurate copy
06:18 AM gloops: couldnt understand the maths
06:19 AM gloops: yes enleth, in fact there are still stocks of new cameras from production times, they made so many with no consideration of the market, you can still get them boxed unopened
06:20 AM enleth: gloops: it's either an urban legend or no one gave a shit about assigning a proper engineer to supervise setup of those stolen factories
06:22 AM enleth: Russia has always had an abundance of excellent mathematicians, they were the second ones to have working nukes after all
06:22 AM gloops: hmm true
06:22 AM enleth: probably no one gave a shit
06:23 AM enleth: besides, they were able to improve some things in those cameras
06:23 AM enleth: AFAIK their lenses were better than the original German ones
06:23 AM gloops: the lenses are biting sharp, but the out of focus - bokeh as its known is often bizarre
06:24 AM gloops: abberations, distortions etc, the japanese did nail it
06:24 AM enleth: that's a different league entirely
06:25 AM gloops: the japanese only worked on what the russians had
06:26 AM sync: the russians are capable of producing equal optics and did so before the japanese figured it out
06:26 AM sync: they just don't do it for consumer stuff
06:29 AM gloops: strange they would not put their best on the market sync
06:29 AM sync: it is not their business
06:30 AM gloops: they made thousands of tons of cameras for western consumption - mostly cheap poor quality, i have a box full lol
06:31 AM sync: I have a peleng stabiscope, the optical quality is superb
06:31 AM sync: well, the japanese also made cheapshit cameras
06:31 AM sync: so did anybody else
06:32 AM sync: I also have some russian tele optics, they work very well
06:35 AM gloops: the standard issue 50mm prime was the helios 44, i mean a nice sharp useable lens, very good in fact
06:35 AM Loetmichel: a friend had a 800mm fixed tele for his canon AE1... back in the day. Alos russian production.
06:36 AM gloops: but it was up against the canon l lenses, the minoltas, when examined seriously the image quality didnt stand up
06:36 AM Loetmichel: Sharp as a razor, tough as nails and absolutely not aviable new, only on shady channels from across the iron curtain back in the days ;)
06:37 AM Loetmichel: nicknamed "DAS OFENROHR" (The stove pipe) for its black "shriveled up exterior" and its size and weight
06:48 AM gloops: well, look at chinese stuff now, everybody moans about the quality, but we all buy it
07:17 AM trasz: folks, some time ago i've pushed some patches to make linuxcnc work on freebsd.
07:17 AM trasz: now, those patches were the 'clean' ones.
07:17 AM trasz: there's, however, still a number of patches that i'm not sure about.
07:17 AM trasz: is someone interested in taking a look, to see if there's anything left that could be upstreamed?
07:18 AM trasz: current list of out-of-tree diffs is here: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/head/cad/linuxcnc-devel/files/
07:18 AM archivist: trasz, best in the dev channel #linuxcnc-devel
07:19 AM gloops: wish it would run on ubuntu
07:20 AM jelly-home is now known as jelly
07:21 AM trasz: archivist: ah, thanks!
08:14 AM Munt: Hey folks I'm about to buy a CNC router. I've been asked if I want Mach3, DSP or NK105. Which would you recommend ?
08:17 AM gloops: ive only used mach3 out of those
08:20 AM archivist: linuxcnc!!!!
08:20 AM Munt: I guess I have a lot to learn. I'm not sure how LinuxCNC works in conjuntions with these different set ups
08:21 AM gloops: well, i have designed a primitive rotating ballnut, with absolutely no calculations regarding deflection or bearing spacings and so on
08:21 AM gloops: linuxcnc doesnt work with those setups - it replaces them
08:22 AM archivist: Munt, try going into a rolls royce garage and asking is ford better than skoda
08:22 AM Munt: I guess I'm curious about how LinuxCNC interfaces with the machine control systems
08:22 AM archivist: it is the control
08:22 AM gloops: with 5mm screw pitch, maximum motor rpm 1000, pulleys geared 3-1 top speed would be 15000mm/mm
08:22 AM Munt: I thought it was software that ran on the computer ?
08:22 AM archivist: yes
08:22 AM gloops: compared to max of 5000 with screw rotated
08:23 AM Munt: It can "speak" via USB / Parallel port to the board that controls the steppers?
08:23 AM Munt: sorry for the hardcore noobishness
08:24 AM pcw_home: gloops: LinuxCNC runs fine on Ubuntu
08:24 AM gloops: oh its all very daunting for everyone to start with Munt
08:24 AM Munt: gloops : I hear ya :p
08:24 AM gloops: i started 6 months ago - its childs play even to me now
08:24 AM archivist: usb should not be used for machine control due to latency issues
08:24 AM gloops: pcw it does?
08:24 AM Munt: archivist : Thought this also.
08:25 AM archivist: others that use usb hand off part of the work to another computer
08:25 AM archivist: but issues still exist
08:25 AM gloops: linuxcnc is as easy as mach3 to configure, it has a step config waizard, you just input the physical characteristics of your machine, and away you go
08:26 AM gloops: pcw how does one run linuxcnc on ubuntu?
08:26 AM Munt: I like hte idea of mapping the surface of a PCB and milling it using LinuxCNC
08:28 AM gloops: well, as i say im no expert, but this is the thing with linuxcnc over other control software, you can set it up to run your router simply and problem free, cut signs, make carvings all day easy, but you can also go further with linuxcnc
08:29 AM archivist: a lot further
08:29 AM gloops: ethernet interfacing, high speeds, and loads of other stuff i know nothing about
08:33 AM Munt: SO if my machine had an NK-105 Controller I could still use LinuxCNC to operate it without hardware modifications ?
08:36 AM archivist: probably not
08:40 AM Munt: Thank you archivist. Would the USB connection from the Mach3 option allow for LinuxCNC operation without hardware mods ?
08:40 AM Munt: ( If I read correctly it seems that they have no option for parallel port mach3 on this controller )
08:40 AM archivist: linuxcnc does not use usb except as a jog box
08:41 AM Munt: Ah. So I need a Parallel port ?
08:41 AM Munt: s/port/input to the CNC
08:42 AM archivist: there is an ethernet solution not just parallel port
08:43 AM archivist: is the router available without a controller
08:43 AM archivist: or choose a different make etc
08:44 AM Munt: thanks a lot for the food for thought.
08:45 AM Munt: I'd much rather run Linux on my control PC than windows
09:12 AM gloops: what sort of router are you getting Munt?
09:13 AM Munt: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/MINI-Low-price-CNC-Router-Machine_60672881007.html this is the one I'm looking at
09:17 AM gloops: thats looks better than a lot i have seen, some good components, hiwin rails, leadshine drivers and so on, a proper spindle
09:23 AM archivist: cast iron! looks aluminium to me
09:23 AM gloops: lol
09:24 AM archivist: ew pvc table
09:24 AM gloops: yeah noticed that
09:24 AM * archivist runs a mile
09:25 AM gloops: maybe its pvc surface
09:25 AM pcw_home: gloops: there are different ways to instal LinuxCNC on Debian derivatives (Ubuntu, Mint, etc)
09:25 AM pcw_home: Packages are the easiest but building from source works an a wider range of OS's
09:26 AM gloops: ill have to look at getting the packages pcw, i have searched but didnt find anything
09:27 AM gloops: would be convenient as i run ubuntu normally
09:28 AM pcw_home: My home desktop runs Ubuntu 16.04 (and LinuxCNC)
09:30 AM Munt: pvc table you say ... lemme look
09:31 AM archivist: in the overview section
09:32 AM Munt: mmm I see it. didnt think that would be possible
09:32 AM Munt: they seem to make them to order in a lot of respects I think I could ask for a different table
11:30 AM Todd_Z: I think it was more of a development philosophy schism between some of the developers of Linuxcnc and those who moved to Machinekit.
11:33 AM Todd_Z: oops sorry that was a reply to an old message (didn't realize I wasn't looking at the current chat)
12:03 PM IchGucksLive: hi all
12:04 PM hazzy: hello Ichs
12:04 PM IchGucksLive: ;-)
12:19 PM CaptHindsight: Todd_Z: it's part of what I call the Fantasy CNC Controller Contest
12:21 PM CaptHindsight: when repraps were supposedly going to revolutionize manufacturing they thought a small CNC controller would be required
12:22 PM CaptHindsight: the reality is that the low cost ARM boards with enough GPU to run a CNC are either low cost with closed GPU drivers or...
12:22 PM CaptHindsight: expensive with open GPU drivers
12:25 PM CaptHindsight: with closed gpu drivers you are stuck with whatever kernel they decided to use and build against or modify the kernel you want to use to make it compatible with the GPU driver binary
12:26 PM CaptHindsight: imx6 and the rpi3 both have gpu driver source but the boards are >$30
12:29 PM CaptHindsight: the allwinner arm SOC's are <$6 in volume and use closed gpu accel drivers but they have so many cores that they can run LCNC and support 20+ fps at high res using the other CPU cores for rendering
12:31 PM CaptHindsight: the allwinner SOC's don't have PRU's and the GPIO can't be used for software stepping, so you need a $10 FPGA for that
12:32 PM Loetmichel: Uh?
12:32 PM Loetmichel: did i miss that there is an ARM LCNC port?
12:32 PM CaptHindsight: maybe
12:33 PM Loetmichel: cou someone be nice and gimme a link?
12:33 PM Loetmichel: +ld
12:33 PM CaptHindsight: we have been building LCNC for ARM for the past 5 years
12:34 PM cradek: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ shows several armhf builds
12:34 PM Loetmichel: ah, thats why i never noticed it... i only used the Live CDs
12:36 PM CaptHindsight: for some reason using an FPGA with an ARM soc is bad/cheating/poo poo ... don't ask me why, I don't understand it either
12:39 PM CaptHindsight: the BBB fits into the higher price category but supports stepping without an FPGA but ...
12:40 PM CaptHindsight: has closed GPU drivers so rendering is maybe 2-3 fps and has not enough CPU cores to make software rendering fast enough
12:42 PM CaptHindsight: the ARM SOC on the Rpi3 has open gpu drivers but needs an fpga for stepping and Broadcon won't sell you just the chip
12:45 PM CaptHindsight: the imx6 is more expensive than the Broadcon SOC (on the Rpi3) has open GPU drivers and you can buy the chip
12:45 PM CaptHindsight: but it still needs and FPGA for fast stepping
12:46 PM Loetmichel: anyone tried to find enough GPIO on a cheap 100eur Tablet?
12:47 PM Loetmichel: to run Lcnc on it?
12:47 PM CaptHindsight: if you can build boards into the K's then a $6 Allwinner SOC with a $10 FPGA board will have fast stepping and render video fast enough
12:47 PM CaptHindsight: but nobody has built that
12:48 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: I was waiting for that back in 2010 but the tablet SOC's all left out GPIO and didn't even route the SPI pads on the circuit board
12:50 PM * Loetmichel has a teclast tpad x80 pro here
12:50 PM Loetmichel: for 60 eur
12:50 PM Loetmichel: that has an intel chip inside
12:50 PM Loetmichel: would be interesting to see if you could get an isa bus out of that
12:50 PM Loetmichel: or GPIOs ;)
12:52 PM sync: of you just use ethernet CaptHindsight
12:54 PM sync: we are currently fiddling a solution that uses the powerSTEP01 drivers getting talked to by some stm32f4 that connects with linuxcnc via ethernet
01:15 PM James628: Hi! Could anyone tell me why I get "can't initialize iptables table filter, permission denied " when I run linuxcnc with 7i92?
01:15 PM CaptHindsight: <-- back
01:15 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: have a link?
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: no LPT (not surprised) and no Ethernet
01:18 PM JT-Shop: James628: can you run a sim from the config picker?
01:21 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: as i said: it would be nice to have an isa/pcie-bus accessible inside
01:21 PM pcw_mesa: James628: what OS? (I think that's an issue with Stretch and perhaps Jessie)
01:21 PM Loetmichel: so one could add any peripherial needed
01:21 PM pcw_mesa: newer PCs are not likely to have ISA (just LPC) and notebooks may not have that
01:22 PM Loetmichel: pcw_home: if there is a pcie-lane acceesible one could add a bridge
01:22 PM James628: JT-Shop: I am using latest master RIP on Linux Mit 18
01:23 PM pcw_mesa: Yeah Mint 18 has that issue
01:24 PM James628: pcw: someting to change in /etc/sudores file maybe?
01:24 PM pcw_mesa: Notebooks may not even have PCIE
01:26 PM James628: Or just ignore this message ? Otherwise the 7i92 works well
01:27 PM pcw_mesa: James628: maybe... Ive just been ignoring it on newer dists
01:28 PM James628: I could not find any reasonable hint with google, so will ignore it. Thanks!!
01:28 PM pcw_mesa: the theory is the using iptables blocks any other access to the 7I92
01:29 PM pcw_mesa: but if you use a off-the-wall ip address like 10.10.10.10 I don't _think_ its an issue
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: sync: yes, we have been using Ethernet with the Allwinner boards
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: sync: somebody is trying to prove me wrong and get the Allwinner GPIO toggling fast enough synched in real time
01:32 PM CaptHindsight: maybe it's possible but the docs don't cover how GPIO is connected to the bus to the CPU cores or how its arbiter works or access to the arbiter
01:33 PM CaptHindsight: he mentioned something about how the GPIO is accessed via MMIO
01:33 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't looked
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: James628: it may be fixed in master:
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: LINUXCNC - 2.8.0~pre1
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: Machine configuration directory is '/home/pcw/linuxcnc/configs'
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: Machine configuration file is '7i96-1k.ini'
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: Starting LinuxCNC...
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: emc/iotask/ioControl.cc 768: can't load tool table.
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: Found file(REL): ./hm2-pidstepper.hal
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: Note: Using POSIX realtime
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: hm2: loading Mesa HostMot2 driver version 0.15
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: hm2_eth: loading Mesa AnyIO HostMot2 ethernet driver version 0.2
01:36 PM pcw_mesa: hm2_eth: 10.10.10.10: Hardware address: 00:60:1b:16:00:03
01:38 PM pcw_mesa: ( that's mint 18 )
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: someone could ask Olimex to combine an Allwinner with an FPGA since they make both boards now
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.olimex.com/Products/FPGA/iCE40/iCE40HX8K-EVB/open-source-hardware
01:41 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.olimex.com/Products/SOM/A13/
01:41 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fleafpga-ohm-fpga-experimenter-board-arduino#/
01:41 PM SpeedEvil: On a related topic.
01:42 PM James628: I compiledd today from master... so it is up-to-date, no issue with other parts of the network, it is a single cable between PC and 7i92
01:43 PM CaptHindsight: but $45 for the FPGA board
01:43 PM CaptHindsight: + the Rpi3 $35
01:43 PM CaptHindsight: not cheap
01:43 PM SpeedEvil: raspberry pi style
01:43 PM SpeedEvil: It is not a 'hat'
01:44 PM pcw_mesa: the rock64 is cheaper
01:44 PM SpeedEvil: Standalone.
01:44 PM SpeedEvil: (well, not only a hat)
01:44 PM pcw_mesa: not sure where support for it is though
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: $6 Allwinner 4-8 core + $10 FPGA on a board will do it
01:46 PM pcw_mesa: James628: I wonder if i have a unmerged patch...
01:46 PM CaptHindsight: well broken debian ISO is probably out there
01:46 PM CaptHindsight: stable build is a few weeks of work
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/NTULINUX/toolchain_builder so that you can have a proper toolchain
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: magic free
01:48 PM IchGucksLive: Gn8
01:48 PM James628: pcw: I recompile it again tomorrow and come back with the result
01:49 PM CaptHindsight: I think that Rockchip will sell you their parts and pre compiled GPU drivers and broken Linux tree for ~$10k
01:49 PM sync: CaptHindsight: there is no real reason why you'd need fast gpio toggling
01:49 PM CaptHindsight: sync: for stepping without a FPGA
01:50 PM sync: yeah, just don't use step/dir
01:50 PM CaptHindsight: since there is some aversion/fear/taboo against using an FPGA
01:50 PM CaptHindsight: somehow when this is done then something is supposed to happen...
01:51 PM CaptHindsight: not sure what
01:51 PM SpeedEvil: On the topic of stepping, there seems little reason to me why you can't lock off a core from linux, and use it as a fast micro. The only issues will be the jitter around internal bus contention, which is ~0
01:51 PM SpeedEvil: (for multicore)
01:51 PM sync: there is just no need for it
01:51 PM sync: you can just use a stepper motor driver that accepts something more sensible than step/dir
01:52 PM SpeedEvil: sync: yes and no.
01:52 PM SpeedEvil: Solves the very immediate problem, but leaves the second order one
01:53 PM sync: what would be the second order one?
01:54 PM SpeedEvil: Open loop controlling speed of one motor helps you with immediate step-rate. It does not fix any required movements of other motors.
01:54 PM SpeedEvil: In some cases, programmed movements of all motors is all you need.
01:55 PM sync: that depends on the driver you use, but why would that be openloop
01:56 PM sync: say, with a powerstep01 you get position feedback
01:56 PM sync: and you just tell it a velocity
01:56 PM sync: and it outputs that
01:56 PM CaptHindsight: the first gen Zynq devices had >50uS latency with their ARM cores embedded into the FPGA
01:56 PM sync: even if you put more motors together they will be in sync
01:58 PM SpeedEvil: sync: Openloop from the perspective of the rest of the system.
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/3f/48/e2/37/6b/ac/4c/f5/DM00090983.pdf/files/DM00090983.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.DM00090983.pdf powerstep1 data sheet
01:58 PM SpeedEvil: sync: Cuts will continue perhaps past their designed limit, and stiff like rigid tapping stops working
01:58 PM sync: why would they
01:58 PM sync: I mean, I have a setup just like that working here
01:59 PM SpeedEvil: You're changing from a step/dir command to a programmed velocity/accelleration. The second has a larger latency, but it does have a latency requirement
01:59 PM sync: thy does the second have a larger latency?
02:00 PM sync: if the motor performs the command within your servo cycle therer is no difference to step/dir
02:00 PM SpeedEvil: Because you are not requiring ~10us or whatever resolution to cope with each individual step
02:00 PM SpeedEvil: Sorry, I'm being unclear.
02:00 PM sync: very
02:10 PM sync: as long as the delay of your drives is deterministic and the same there are no issues
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: open loop stepping
02:13 PM CaptHindsight: $5 (in low volume) for a 10A stepper driver with a SPI bus to control it is not bad
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: but for 3 axis you're up to $15
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: ARM SOC + FPGA board + (10A stepper drive x3) + power supply vs ARM SOC + (SPI stepper drive x3) + power supply
02:17 PM Gabe: Does anyone know if the repeat subroutine stores the repeat count in an accessible system variable? Or should I just create a global variable to keep track of the count?
02:19 PM CaptHindsight: what's the center frequency of a modern consumer microwave oven?
02:20 PM CaptHindsight: 2.45Ghz nevermind
02:21 PM pcw_mesa: center of ISM band
02:23 PM SpeedEvil: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/10/19/1810250/japanese-metal-manufacturer-faked-specifications-to-hundreds-of-companies oopsie
02:24 PM gloops: if you want good steel - UK
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-reliability/teslas-model-3-gets-an-average-as-new-tech-dents-auto-reliability-consumer-reports-idUSKBN1CO2IU
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: TEPCO and now steel
02:43 PM gloops: VW
02:44 PM gloops: funny how its always the quality marques, the ones whos ads mock inferior products
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: whatever butter metal Jeep used in the late 90's to early 00's takes the cake for me
02:54 PM CaptHindsight: I could drill the axle housings and steering knuckles by hand using only a drill bit
02:55 PM gloops: well i dont know, the old fords and british cars, you used to put a ring spanner on a nut and knock hell out of it with a 3lb hammer to move it
02:55 PM gloops: nut stayed in shape, spanner stayed in shape
02:55 PM gloops: you do that with japanese - no chance
02:56 PM sync: where is the problem with being able to drill steering knuckles by hand?
02:56 PM sync: I think I have not encountered one where I could not do that
02:57 PM andypugh: He didn’t mention using a drill, just the bit and a hand...
02:57 PM CaptHindsight: yeah
02:57 PM CaptHindsight: no drill or motor
02:57 PM gloops: yeah but he psyches himself up first
02:57 PM gloops: hits himself with a frying pan while screaming 'i am a viking!'
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: hehe I haven't come up against anything yet that has stopped a hand drill
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: as long as sort of round is acceptable
03:02 PM gloops: those old hand turned bench drills are shockingly effective
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: anyone seen the new Blade Runner yet? Everyone says they are going to but haven't gotten around to it.
03:06 PM andypugh: I am not saying that I am going to.
03:07 PM FinboySlick: Denis Villeneuve is sort of a local celebrity. It's pretty nice to see him making it so big. Arrival was great.
03:08 PM FinboySlick: But no, haven't seen it either. Will probably re-watch the original first too.
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: I like the powerstep1 idea
03:23 PM CaptHindsight: stepper motors with 24V and SPI connectors could be nice
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: or 24V and RTnet (or similar real time network connection)
03:28 PM andypugh: A little MCU could talk SPI to the drivers and any other protocol on the PC side. Smart-serial?
03:30 PM pcw_mesa: yeah you dont want SPI piped around than needs to be local to the drives
03:30 PM pcw_mesa: s/than/that/
03:31 PM sync: well, you can probably keep the drivers close together
03:31 PM sync: the current setup looks like a few powerstep01 eval boards stacked
03:33 PM pcw_mesa: Compete with Technics/make them on the back of the motor...
03:33 PM CaptHindsight: yes, you have to decide on the layout, motors with smarts and a network or the motor drivers with the smarts and the motors separate
03:33 PM pcw_mesa: broadcast Ethernet...
03:35 PM CaptHindsight: and also do you want it cheap or do you want to try to make a $ off of it first
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: if you want it cheap then give the plans to Chinaco and let them make the $1 on each motor
03:38 PM sync: well, both variants are already developed :P
03:39 PM CaptHindsight: are there smart steppers now on alibaba?
03:40 PM sync: probably, but we developed both variants
03:40 PM sync: steppers that speak smart serial and put codes on our ethernet thing that speaks spi
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.trinamic.com/products/drives/
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PD42-1141-PANDrive-smart-stepper-motor-with-integrated-controller-driver-NEMA17/331073921161
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: neither are low cost
03:43 PM sync: yeah, but a powerstep01 is low cost and an stm32f407 is also not very expensive
03:43 PM sync: and it just works™
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.anaheimautomation.com/products/stepper/stepper-integrated.php?tID=82&pt=t&cID=50
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.linengineering.com/products/integrated_motors/
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: and closed loop is another story
03:45 PM sync: no, already developed
03:45 PM sync: the stmsp we built does FOC on a stepper
03:45 PM sync: and speaks sserial
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Nema23-1-89Nm-integrated-stepper-motor-with-motor-driver-Nema-23-76mm-integrated-stepping-motor-3A/342739_32815375768.html $70 nema23
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: with shipping
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: sync: closed loop steppers?
03:50 PM sync: yes
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: if i was build a whole lot of something with synchronized motion it could make sense
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: build/building
03:59 PM gloops: whats going to be the next thing in cnc, i mean what will replace these xyz machines with stepping motors
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: I see it more for cheap robots
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: automation to replace people
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: they are never cheap enough
04:01 PM gloops: should we be alarmed?
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: another race to the bottom
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: meat sack with synthetic brain
04:02 PM gloops: in philosophy - technomemes
04:03 PM CaptHindsight: manufactured sub-people
04:03 PM CaptHindsight: grow bodies, plug in brain/controller
04:04 PM gloops: why use a donkey when you have a tractor
04:05 PM CaptHindsight: as donkeys get cheaper and easier to manufacture
04:06 PM gloops: you are forgetting one thing Capt, the entire point of the labour force is to provide for - the labour force
04:06 PM gloops: take out the people - none of the work needs doing anyway
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: whatever costs less and gets the job done
04:07 PM roycroft: these days, the entire point of the labor force is to put money in rich people's pockets
04:08 PM gloops: roycroft a lot of that is marxist pessimism you know
04:08 PM gloops: the so called rich people have their money invested in productive concerns
04:09 PM roycroft: they're not "so-called" rich people
04:09 PM roycroft: they are rich people
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: remove their brains, put them in a simulation where they can compete for the most money and power
04:09 PM roycroft: many of whom make more in an hour than their average employee makes in a year
04:09 PM roycroft: and however much they have, it's never enough
04:09 PM roycroft: i'm not a marxist
04:09 PM roycroft: i believe in market capitalism
04:10 PM roycroft: but that's now what we have any more
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: or keep their brains in but just put them in a simulator
04:10 PM gloops: well i agree tbh
04:10 PM roycroft: i have no problem with people becoming rich
04:10 PM gloops: thats why we have all this political unrest again
04:10 PM roycroft: but not at the expense of others via coersion
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: or find cures mental illness
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: cures for
04:11 PM roycroft: economically/politically i probably believe more in the star trek model than anything else
04:11 PM roycroft: but i know that's not something that we can achieve
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: collect string = crazy person
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: collect money = eccentric person
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: obsessively in each case
04:12 PM gloops: robots are just the the next logical phase in evolution
04:12 PM roycroft: robots are not part of human evolution
04:12 PM roycroft: they are just tools
04:13 PM roycroft: i agree that they will replace much manual labor
04:13 PM roycroft: and should
04:13 PM gloops: genes gave rise to memes, memes gave rise to technomemes, each displacing its predecessor
04:13 PM roycroft: that actually moves us closer to that star trek model :)
04:13 PM roycroft: people should be freed to pursue what interests them
04:13 PM gloops: the robots will engage in an arms race similar to natural selection
04:13 PM roycroft: not be chained to work to support themselves
04:14 PM gloops: but that is the entire purpose of their existence roycroft
04:16 PM roycroft: the purpose of life is to reproduce
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: depends on who you ask
04:16 PM roycroft: but as an intelligent, enlightened species, we should not have to worry about fulfilling our biological purpose
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: money and power is what some would answer
04:17 PM roycroft: we should concern ourselves with living, not just reproducing
04:17 PM gloops: there were 10000 people on this island before production and agriculture became rationalised, before people became slaves
04:18 PM gloops: 60 million now
04:19 PM roycroft: it's odd that the more enlightened we become, the more our society is becoming binary
04:19 PM gloops: everything we do is to satisfy biological/genetic conditioners
04:19 PM roycroft: nuance is almost a lost art in people's thinking any more
04:20 PM gloops: i type this - some chemical process in the brain is sustained, my feelings remain stable etc
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: yes, big pull back to the past
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: but if you say things load enough and long enough they will believe it and follow you
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: load/loud
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: and destroy critical thinking and creativity
04:25 PM roycroft: we need to get rid of the tribalism that's become rabid in this country
04:25 PM roycroft: and it affects both right and left
04:25 PM gloops: unfortunately the people who interpret the world rarely do anything to change it
04:26 PM gloops: and the ones who change it rarely bother to interpret it
04:27 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: it serves those in power that obsessively collect money and power
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: in the past there was generally a revolution that would change things
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: or large scale wars
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: large relative to the time
04:29 PM gloops: well, the industrial revolution wasnt consciously brought about
04:29 PM roycroft: part of the binary thinking that is a problem is the notion that to oppose the current power structure is to advocate for the other extreme (socialism/marxism)
04:29 PM roycroft: i'm opposed to communist power structures as well
04:30 PM gloops: it was just individuals or small groups of people doing things which combined changed the mode of production
04:31 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: yes, I've noticed the same lately. rather than just dealing with the extreme or illness
04:32 PM gloops: some guy invented a steam engine, another guy saw an opportunity to make money, some other guys needed work - before you know it - industrial revolution
04:32 PM CaptHindsight: and dealing with the corruption that always sets in
04:32 PM CaptHindsight: the industrial revolution and the rise of capitalism
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: and again if you start talking about the problems with capitalism it doesn't mean you completely change to some other system
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: it's the current form of capitalism
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: but if you can't think critically it's not possible to even discuss it
04:35 PM gloops: before capitalism there was the aristocracy, but it wasnt the peasants who overthrew the barons
04:35 PM Deejay: gn8
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: China is an interesting experiment. Communism with capitalism
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: worked great the past 30 years
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: now I expect a train wreck
04:37 PM gloops: 'before revolution - chop wood carry water, after revolution - chop wood carry water'
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: if China were to go more democratic then those currently in power would lose that power
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: so don't expect that to happen
04:40 PM gloops: and the corporations would take control
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: but now they are moving people from the rural areas into the newly built empty cities
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: and plugging the holes in the great firewall of China
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: don't want people to know what goes on outside those walls/borders
04:43 PM CaptHindsight: the majority have smartphones and internet access but limited to whats inside China
04:43 PM gloops: very wise
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: on the other hand the US has had open internet access and most people don't care what goes on outside the walls/borders
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: cause light beer/porn/sports is still working so life is good
04:44 PM gloops: china is not receptive to the subversive dialogue of the boureosie
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: and if you grow up that way and things are getting better vs worse
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: they don't complain until things get worse
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: or perceived to be getting worse
04:46 PM CaptHindsight: and everyone outside the US with a few exceptions are dark skinned with towels on their heads trying to kill us
04:47 PM CaptHindsight: so don't think about it
04:56 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: I guess on your island they are unhappy with similar job and resource stealing immigrants
04:56 PM CaptHindsight: immigrants/refugees
04:57 PM gloops: i dont think the english are really anti-foreigner, they do seem to understand that mass immigration is only being done for money though - and is not done in their interest, or in the interests of the migrants
05:00 PM CaptHindsight: will take a generation or two get over nationalism, once that even begins to be an idea
05:01 PM gloops: who knows
05:02 PM CaptHindsight: at the same time with medial progress making it possible for people to live to 150+
05:02 PM CaptHindsight: medial/medical
05:02 PM gloops: there is nothing inevitable about globalisation or internationalism or liberalism
05:03 PM gloops: it could easy go entirely the opposite direction
05:03 PM CaptHindsight: sure
05:04 PM CaptHindsight: WWIII, pestilence, epidemic, large meteor
05:04 PM Tom_L: earth needs a good cleansing
05:04 PM gloops: many scientists warn about alien visitors - they most likely will not be the ultra intelligent ultra wise beings we assume they will be, because no such species could survive long enough to develop interstellar travel
05:05 PM CaptHindsight: if they were would they even bother to stop here?
05:05 PM CaptHindsight: hmm another monkey planet, move along
05:05 PM gloops: aliens will be ruthless aggressive psychopaths who come only to huint us for sport and steal our resources
05:06 PM Tom_L: too many scifi movies i think..
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: will come as mold spores
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: already has
05:07 PM CaptHindsight: every try keeping it out of the shower?
05:07 PM gloops: maybe thats how we got here
05:07 PM Tom_L: well, i killed one of em: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/mushroom.jpg
05:08 PM gloops: your name will be in the book Tom
05:10 PM Tom_L: the ants are gonna take over soon
05:10 PM Tom_L: who knows what they're planning below us
05:10 PM gloops: the hive mind
05:56 PM Simonious: we have a 5x9 foot router table at the shop that is mechanically sound, but it isn't reliable, it's probably either wiring or faulty servo controllers. It has some proprietary crap on it, but it's been halfway bypassed and rigged and is currently driven with EMC2, was born on MACH3. Even with all endstops disabled it will spontaneously stop sometimes. :/
05:56 PM Simonious: We're not likely to take the time to redo it..
06:07 PM MarcelineVQ: nice size
06:07 PM malcom2073: Sounds like a good candidate for a full control retrofit
06:09 PM CaptHindsight: Simonious: are you selling it as is? If so, location?
06:09 PM CaptHindsight: or is it already in the alley by the dumpsters?
10:28 PM evilroot: Hmm
10:28 PM evilroot: If nothing else the components ought to be good