#linuxcnc Logs
Oct 14 2017
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:10 AM RyanS: servo thread 6290, base 7738 max jitterbug, das is good ya?
12:13 AM XXCoder: RyanS: with HD viodeo playing and in least 3 glxgear running?
12:13 AM XXCoder: you want computer to be REALLY busy when testing
12:13 AM RyanS: whats glxgear
12:13 AM XXCoder: its command to open window with 2 rotating gears
12:13 AM XXCoder: its glx test program, its good way to make sure your cpu is busy also
12:13 AM RyanS: ill try.. i dont have any hd video on that pc
12:13 AM XXCoder: youtube
12:13 AM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDfjXj5EGqI
12:13 AM RyanS: no network lol
12:13 AM XXCoder: too bad
12:13 AM XXCoder: its 8 hours of fire hd video
12:13 AM RyanS: alllllllright i'll get an ethernet cable
12:19 AM XXCoder: network staying busy is nice additon also
12:21 AM RyanS: 50259 and 35700
12:21 AM RyanS: 2 gear thingies and 1 log fire
12:22 AM XXCoder: not bad really
12:23 AM XXCoder: there is more can do but not too sure. I tend to use third glxgears to move window around rapidly
12:23 AM RyanS: i dont plan to watch log fire whilst plasma cutting
12:23 AM XXCoder: yeah but then you want jitter value to match higher end usage of cpu
12:23 AM RyanS: i thought 10000 is considered good?
12:24 AM XXCoder: 35k is quite good for very busy computer.
12:24 AM XXCoder: mine barely beats that at 32k if I recall right
12:25 AM RyanS: i guess im not building a 5 axis mill
12:25 AM XXCoder: why?
12:26 AM XXCoder: you wouldmnt be doing that if it was over 100k latency but 35k is great
12:28 AM RyanS: so base jitter , not servo?
12:29 AM XXCoder: jitter yeah
12:29 AM XXCoder: you don't want it too low and it gets overwealmed but you dont want to waste too much by setting it too high
12:30 AM RyanS: do i care about base or servo
12:30 AM XXCoder: I never used servo so I dont know
12:31 AM RyanS: servo says 50k, anyhow im using steppers
12:31 AM XXCoder: yeah base is what you want
12:31 AM XXCoder: wild guess servo one is for if you use em. maybe it needs more cpu overhead or something.
12:32 AM RyanS: 3 glx + log fire, any more abuse and Tux will call the police
12:33 AM XXCoder: lol
12:33 AM RyanS: penguin abuse
12:33 AM XXCoder: if its linuxcnc you mwan Chip;)
12:34 AM RyanS: the penguin with a big tool?
12:35 AM XXCoder: yep
12:45 AM RyanS: wireless usb for internet and ethernet for a 7i76e should be ok?
12:47 AM XXCoder: yeah
12:47 AM XXCoder: I use wireless for my cnc router computer
01:20 AM RyanS: is there a vnc component in linux ,by default ?
01:20 AM RyanS: to conect from android
01:23 AM IchGucksLive: Morning from Germany
01:23 AM XXCoder: hey
01:23 AM XXCoder: RyanS: good question?
01:24 AM RyanS: its possibly a bad one
01:24 AM IchGucksLive: hy RyanS
01:24 AM IchGucksLive: did you recive all mails
01:24 AM IchGucksLive: the 3 from yesterday
01:25 AM RyanS: yeah, i have to d/l qcad.
01:25 AM IchGucksLive: Librecad is free
01:25 AM IchGucksLive: qcad is also free on linux as it makes its own config
01:26 AM RyanS: im just jitter testing my mini pc. 35700
01:26 AM IchGucksLive: good to go but not to your given speed
01:26 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: Why dident you go to a fpga card
01:27 AM IchGucksLive: or the other way go to get a P5B
01:28 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: i know from here its easy as i got almost all within 24h supplied
01:28 AM IchGucksLive: and in the "outback " it is a hell of getting parts
01:29 AM RyanS: its a spare pc, i want to use a 7i76e
01:29 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: there is touchy and a touchscreen comp to get a better performence
01:29 AM XXCoder: qcad dont appear to have cam
01:29 AM XXCoder: ah there it is
01:29 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: RyanS is going Plasma so he shoudt use sheetcam
01:30 AM XXCoder: how much is sheetcam
01:30 AM XXCoder: if not free
01:30 AM RyanS: my given speed.. 8m/min?
01:30 AM XXCoder: 8 meters a min? thats fast
01:30 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: no way on 35k
01:30 AM IchGucksLive: i go 12m/min at 3400
01:31 AM gloops: that looks a bit like librecad
01:31 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: if you go fpga as 5i25 it is easy to get 8m
01:32 AM XXCoder: qcad is open source and it is also paid. interesting
01:32 AM XXCoder: paid is very cheap
01:35 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: sheetcam is the best for plasmas
01:35 AM IchGucksLive: i do all on this
01:35 AM IchGucksLive: and also you can mod the post as you like
01:36 AM XXCoder: I wonder how well sheetcam works for cnc router as its mostly 2d.
01:36 AM nullifier: doesn't shopbot use a trickydick version of sheetcam
01:37 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdBGllxCH04 My Advice on Sheetcam
01:40 AM IchGucksLive: for most parts on plasma sheetcam is a 4klick g-code producer
01:41 AM gloops: well, if my calculations are correct i should get around 5m per minute on parallel port machine with 1605 screws - if i wanted that speed
01:41 AM XXCoder: sheetcam apparently can do 2d and 2.5d for cnc router
01:41 AM XXCoder: nice.
01:41 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: 4800mm/min is the given best offere
01:42 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: it will give you somtimes a nightmare on 2.5
01:42 AM gloops: yeah around that mark Ichs, possibly more depending on the screw bearing method
01:42 AM XXCoder: so far I like estlcam
01:42 AM IchGucksLive: more depending on Driver and Voltige
01:42 AM XXCoder: I need to try gcad/cam
01:43 AM IchGucksLive: elstlcam is only good for carving
01:43 AM gloops: if you work wood i dont think you would use much else once youve tried aspire
01:43 AM RyanS: 8m/min is the hypertherm 45 xp book speed for 2mm mild steel
01:43 AM XXCoder: how much is aspire
01:43 AM gloops: depends where you get it, about £1500
01:43 AM XXCoder: so cheap :P
01:44 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: you can cut at 32A with 3200mm
01:44 AM XXCoder: looks like windows only also
01:44 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: as G64 P0,3
01:44 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: thats whatr estlcam brings in PRICE
01:45 AM IchGucksLive: Result is what matters
01:45 AM RyanS: why cut slow when you can cut fast!
01:45 AM gloops: £1500 - one job for a large format router
01:45 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: mashine price
01:45 AM XXCoder: one thing im concerned with estlcam is that theyre adding crappy cnc controller to it
01:46 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/hs.jpg
01:46 AM XXCoder: and estlcam cant do inlays :(
01:46 AM gloops: RyanS this insane quest for speed is often short-sighted
01:46 AM XXCoder: can do flat side inlays not not craved inlays can x-carve can
01:46 AM gloops: as is the quest for precision, you need to build very accurately
01:47 AM MarcelineVQ: IchGucksLive: I like that bottom one most
01:47 AM RyanS: i want recommended hypertherm speed, not insane speed
01:47 AM gloops: i think v carve does inlay - thats around $400, you can upgrade to v carve pro and aspire
01:48 AM XXCoder: gloops: v-carve does
01:48 AM XXCoder: just that 400 is much
01:48 AM gloops: it is
01:48 AM IchGucksLive: MarcelineVQ: http://tv-profi-gmbh.de/fit_we.jpg
01:48 AM gloops: try F-engrave
01:49 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: then you need HIWIN
01:49 AM gloops: i mean, all of this is possible in open source, just takes longer
01:49 AM MarcelineVQ: IchGucksLive: what bits did that take?
01:49 AM RyanS: thats my plan
01:49 AM IchGucksLive: Also a 3Nm Stepepr at 0,05 accuracy Rack pinion setup
01:50 AM XXCoder: gloops: how much is f-engrave
01:50 AM gloops: its free as far as i know
01:50 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: a 250+ span on nongantry Y
01:50 AM XXCoder: cool
01:50 AM RyanS: but, maybe v-groove has less friction ?
01:51 AM gloops: Usable as an LinuxCNC Axis filter program (open the f-engrave.py file from within LinuxCNC Axis File-Open-f-engrave.py.
01:51 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: What you are not calculating at all is the Dust in your mashine
01:51 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: and the Waterspray at tourch up
01:52 AM IchGucksLive: thats why i use shetcam to get out
01:52 AM RyanS: my mistake , max production speed for 2mm aluminium is 9.5m/min
01:52 AM IchGucksLive: manipulating the post to move 4m sideway
01:53 AM IchGucksLive: you can reatch 12m
01:53 AM IchGucksLive: on a real servo setup with 10m workspeed
01:55 AM IchGucksLive: on a plasma only setup with 0,1mm/step and G64P0,5 you will reatch 10m at 3Nm with 20k latency
01:55 AM RyanS: hybrid water table , downdraft , no splash, less airflow than full downdraft
01:56 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: what is your budget to get all this benefit
01:56 AM gloops: http://scorchworks.com/Fengrave/fengrave.html
01:56 AM gloops: also does inlay
01:57 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: i showed you the video of the &75Dollar Plasma
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: thats inide Nativcam
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: as it uses engrave-11
01:58 AM RyanS: i thought ethernet 7i76e means latency is less of an issue than on parport cards?
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: agree
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: you will get there
01:59 AM gloops: for a plasma with 400 oz motors, on a parallel port setup, you could double the speed by gearing the screws up with pulleys
01:59 AM IchGucksLive: but you will also see that the hypertherm will do its own meaning on your sheet
02:00 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: be aware of EMI
02:00 AM RyanS: say what?
02:00 AM IchGucksLive: your cnc hypertherm has its own mind
02:00 AM IchGucksLive: that why i dont use them anymore
02:01 AM IchGucksLive: the internal elecronics has actors on Amps airflow and ...
02:01 AM IchGucksLive: so if you command 8m it may shout down the tourch
02:02 AM IchGucksLive: not at start but somwhere you dont like
02:02 AM IchGucksLive: and a recut is not the option
02:02 AM IchGucksLive: thats why i use DAMM plasmas
02:02 AM RyanS: yeah, but 8m/m is the recommended ?
02:03 AM IchGucksLive: its the MAX
02:03 AM IchGucksLive: it will also cur at 0,3m
02:03 AM IchGucksLive: cut
02:03 AM gloops: my chain drive would attempt to move at the speeds mentioned, haha, you kinda get the feeling that it is much to fast - acceleration to 10m/min on a 4 foot kinda rules it out
02:04 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: VEL 200 ACC 1200 is a hell of a speed
02:04 AM RyanS: DAMM plasma?
02:04 AM IchGucksLive: at the corners the torch flame is bounding
02:05 AM IchGucksLive: http://www.stamos-schweissgeraete.de/de/Plasmaschneider
02:05 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: the one in the video is the cheepest
02:05 AM IchGucksLive: at 1000mm/min
02:07 AM gloops: well, it is no good cutting at 10 metres/min if you cant sell at 10metres/min
02:07 AM RyanS: i cant see how automatic air pressure is an issue
02:08 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: as you got hypertherm,THC,Hiwin,Rack-Pinion,Gantry ,Powerstepper,HighendDrives YOU are FINE to 10m/min
02:09 AM XXCoder: f-engrave seem to be windows only.
02:09 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: he closed it to not be fopuled by the opensource people
02:10 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: but it shoudt run under Winetricks
02:10 AM XXCoder: http://www.scorchworks.com/Fengrave/fengrave_setup.html#linux_fengrave
02:10 AM RyanS: an $800 plasma is equal to a $4500 plasma? :-)
02:11 AM IchGucksLive: many times the 800 will be better
02:12 AM IchGucksLive: 3mashines now got the 70A scut and i am realy impressed as a max of 60sheets we made one day
02:12 AM IchGucksLive: as sheet is 2500x1500
02:12 AM gloops: its python XXCoder - you should know how to install it
02:12 AM gloops: in fact i was hoping you were gonna tell me how to
02:12 AM XXCoder: yeah though python alone it seems to not support ttf
02:13 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: cxf
02:13 AM IchGucksLive: you can modify it
02:13 AM XXCoder: what if I want to use some ttf?
02:13 AM IchGucksLive: eighter use DXF as Qcad ot ttf2cxf
02:14 AM IchGucksLive: BUT this is some crap
02:14 AM XXCoder: I have suspended cnc hobby till we build a shop
02:14 AM XXCoder: right now theres zero room
02:15 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: you are my mind
02:15 AM XXCoder: huh
02:15 AM IchGucksLive: my broter moved now 7times
02:15 AM XXCoder: heh I have moved WAY more times than that
02:15 AM gloops: XXCoder install the .exe files on wine
02:15 AM XXCoder: in my adult life alone, let alone younger years
02:16 AM IchGucksLive: from garage to a large playground
02:16 AM IchGucksLive: with all his Bikeparts
02:18 AM RyanS: a budget plasma claims 60% duty cycle, why do i feel they're lying or using tricky calculatons
02:18 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: your setup will do what you like it to do
02:19 AM gloops: yep runs on wine, just installed it
02:19 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: i stop 5sec at short cuts and above 800mm i stop 30sec
02:20 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: why that workaround as it is python TK
02:20 AM RyanS: i only have single phase power anyway.
02:20 AM IchGucksLive: gloops: you shoudt open it direct in LCNC as it can reed python
02:20 AM gloops: Ichs im not too up on scripting and linux
02:21 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: you will most time be at 28A
02:21 AM IchGucksLive: as Hyper runs best here at this setup and 112V +-4
02:22 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: we are here if you got trouble and you are not ALONE
02:22 AM RyanS: thanks
02:23 AM RyanS: I have German engineering on my side :P
02:24 AM IchGucksLive: no way
02:25 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: on your thinking this mashine setup woudt be best as used so many times and proved http://www.shopbottools.com/
02:25 AM RyanS: literally, German engineering, not even figuratively
02:26 AM IchGucksLive: mynes are lower Q https://www.sorotec.de/shop/CNC-Portalfraesen/
02:27 AM IchGucksLive: morning Deejay whats up un upper germany
02:27 AM IchGucksLive: no fog sunny here
02:27 AM * miss0r hands gloops 'bash & scripting, anniversary edition'
02:27 AM Deejay: moin
02:27 AM miss0r: mornin'
02:27 AM RyanS: i think the only time i've head of shopbot is when people rebuild them
02:27 AM IchGucksLive: im off 2 garden RASPERRY cake from own growings
02:28 AM RyanS: heard
02:28 AM gloops: put it in the in box miss0r heh
02:28 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: around 10000 mashines are build every week
02:28 AM miss0r: hehe
02:29 AM miss0r: wtf is a shopbot?
02:29 AM IchGucksLive: 95% of mach
02:29 AM miss0r: heh... 3axis something
02:29 AM IchGucksLive: miss0r: http://www.shopbottools.com/
02:29 AM RyanS: ih, i thought rhat was shop sabre
02:29 AM Deejay: mach is speed of sound, aye?
02:29 AM XXCoder: I want farmbot heh
02:29 AM Deejay: you need type-bot ;-P
02:30 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: JohnDeer
02:30 AM XXCoder: lol no
02:30 AM Deejay: Fendt!!!
02:30 AM IchGucksLive: best trade ever Fendt
02:30 AM Deejay: :)
02:30 AM IchGucksLive: Farmer 760 Vario
02:30 AM miss0r: 5axis shopbot... http://www.shopbottools.com/mProducts/5axis.htm
02:30 AM gloops: 10000 machines a week, the market is soon going to be saturated with spinners and v carve signs
02:30 AM XXCoder: also, I will never buy any deere product, ever
02:31 AM miss0r: check out the video - I would have choosen something a little more quite lol. That does not sound well
02:31 AM IchGucksLive: miss0r: Fighter jet
02:32 AM IchGucksLive: like mine it sounds horrible
02:32 AM RyanS: German engineering is ingenious -- diesel emissions test defeat device from the company who made the kombivan
02:32 AM miss0r: IchGucksLive: Yeah, with that thin alu cutoff they are making, with i don't know how much contact :D that sounds crazy. Perhaps they choose that so people like me would blame the poor cutting conditions and not notice its a crappy tool... hmmm
02:32 AM IchGucksLive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbVUEcMGrdE The Belt and Geardrives do like young cats
02:33 AM miss0r: :]
02:33 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: it worked up to the university
02:34 AM IchGucksLive: im off 2nd call from garden
02:34 AM miss0r: This is a good day. The CNC mechanic will be here any second, ready to scrape in the final linear slider for the cnc. Then it will be back in buisness :)
02:36 AM RyanS: can steppers do 15m/min with good drives?
02:36 AM miss0r: RyanS: depends :)
02:37 AM RyanS: maybe leadshine DM556,
02:37 AM miss0r: you need to take into consideration: leadscrew pitch, gearing ect.
02:39 AM miss0r: But in general, if you want speed you should go for servos
02:41 AM RyanS: well yeah, but given the appropriate gearing, is 12-15m/min completely servo territory ? anyhow servos are over my budget and knowledge
02:42 AM gloops: no
02:42 AM gloops: you can get those speeds with steppers, as a completely theoretical thing
02:43 AM miss0r: you have to consider the following: How acurate do you want it(Gearing it to kingdom come can introduce errors). How much force do you need(If you gear it up, you will gain speed and loose force(torque)).
02:43 AM miss0r: but anything is possible
02:43 AM gloops: sacrificing resolution - and your machine wants to be rigid, it will want to fly
02:43 AM miss0r: it 'can' be done. but I would not recommend it
02:45 AM miss0r: if you realy want to do this, Might I recommend a good ballscrew/ballnut with a somewhat high pitch?
02:45 AM gloops: when i say rigid - i mean it is going to jerk and shake, you wont like the look of it
02:45 AM gloops: yes i would miss0r, with my limited knowledge thats the way to go
02:45 AM gloops: you can get 30-40mm pitch screws
02:46 AM miss0r: If you do it with a high pitch ballnut you can gain some speed without sacrificing too much acuracy
02:46 AM RyanS: hmm, i was going to go for a honking solid steel frame to somewhat mitigate that
02:46 AM miss0r: gloops: thats alot :D
02:46 AM gloops: ive got a chain drive with 50mm pitch, heavy steel frame, believe me it shakes
02:46 AM XXCoder: flight 666 lands in Hel on friday the 13th lol
02:47 AM miss0r: RyanS: Go search the internet for the highest stable stepper speed with that driver of yours. Then setup an equation with your target linear speed, and figure out what pitch/gearing you need
02:47 AM XXCoder: good thing magical bullshit dont exist
02:47 AM miss0r: gloops: Chain drive? :o
02:47 AM miss0r: XXCoder: yeah, thank god :)
02:47 AM gloops: yep, bicycle chain haha
02:47 AM XXCoder: lol
02:48 AM gloops: 12.7 pitch chain - 14 tooth sprockets
02:48 AM miss0r: gloops: I think I have an idea why the machine shakes on you
02:48 AM gloops: moves like a dream - but little torque for cutting
02:48 AM RyanS: is 1200mm too long for ballscrews ?
02:48 AM gloops: RyanS no
02:48 AM XXCoder: longer the more money but not too long
02:49 AM gloops: you can get 3 metre screws
02:51 AM gloops: miss0r well, the chains are under tension, the bearings are solid, thing is like i said, on a smaller table 11m/min is theoretical, to accelrate to that speed requires quite a curve in a short distance
02:51 AM RyanS: and 1 ballscrew in the centre of the gantry , rather than dual motor R&P , although i haven't seen that design much
02:52 AM gloops: Ryan - this clculator gives some idea of the resonance limit for screws - http://www.nookindustries.com/EngineeringCalculator/CriticalSpeed
02:52 AM gloops: 2 screws not 1
02:52 AM gloops: hmm for plasma though one should be ok
02:54 AM gloops: http://www.nookindustries.com/EngineeringCalculator/MetricCriticalSpeed
02:54 AM RyanS: price wont be much different to r&p considering its one less drive, motor
02:54 AM gloops: you can get 1700 rpm out of a 20mm ballscrew at 1100mm
02:55 AM RyanS: root diameter ?
02:55 AM gloops: the bar without the threads
02:55 AM gloops: - a few mm for argumements sake
02:55 AM gloops: you can get a 24mm leadscrew for £30 - 1500mm
02:56 AM gloops: nut about the same
02:57 AM RyanS: more backlash and friction ?
02:57 AM gloops: https://www.accu.co.uk/en/carbon-steel-c45-trapezoidal-lead-screws/84784-L-Tr25x25-5R-1500-C45
02:57 AM gloops: 25mm pitch
02:57 AM gloops: less backlash than r&p
03:01 AM gloops: in theory that screw can provide speed of 50m/min
03:02 AM XXCoder: heh https://rlv.zcache.co.nz/birthday_humour_dragons_greeting_card_for_kids-re4faf0c8c9894e65a8534e8b1e7a4d24_xvuat_8byvr_1024.jpg
03:03 AM RyanS: hmm, is friction vs ballscrews an issue ?
03:04 AM gloops: ballscrews are obviously more suited to high speeds
03:06 AM gloops: just imagine, the screw is going to need 2000 rpm, imagine that on a lathe carriage, putting a 2000 rpm motor on the leadscrew
03:10 AM RyanS: yeah, i dont see how it'd be suitable for cnc
03:11 AM gloops: hmm, well still probably the most widely used - well acme screws are
03:11 AM archivist: RyanS, for very long screw, rotate the nut
03:12 AM RyanS: how?
03:12 AM gloops: and get your chequebook ready haha
03:12 AM RyanS: for ballscrews ?
03:13 AM archivist: the nut lives in a an assembly with bearings and a drive
03:13 AM MarcelineVQ: I'm imagining a belt around the nut
03:13 AM MarcelineVQ: for a diy fashion anyway :>
03:13 AM gloops: yes archivist presents the #1 solution for high speed
03:14 AM gloops: combined with accuracy anyway
03:14 AM RyanS: interesting : https://au.pinterest.com/pin/515802963557058280/
03:17 AM gloops: found very few rotating nut assemblies for sale, they are expensive
03:17 AM archivist: make
03:17 AM gloops: pondered that, its doable easy
03:18 AM gloops: i dont need it atm
03:18 AM gloops: it also complicates the build - can do without that
03:18 AM RyanS: WTF AU$130 for a ballscrew endsupport!!!?
03:19 AM gloops: no, £13 on ebay, double bearing one end
03:19 AM RyanS: RS have NSK flange bearing units for $65
03:20 AM RyanS: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BK25-32mm-BALLSCREW-END-SUPPORT-BEARING-BALL-SCREW-CNC-/112587050030?hash=item1a36b60c2e
03:20 AM gloops: if you dont have turning facilities make sure you get a machined screw
03:22 AM RyanS: i have 900mm bed lathe but can't see maching ballscrews being easy
03:22 AM archivist: as this is a plasma and accuracy less important use threaded rod
03:22 AM gloops: yeah - but he wants 11m/min archivist
03:23 AM archivist: you can spin the nut still
03:23 AM RyanS: what about crusty dusty plasma environment..
03:24 AM gloops: i think those 25mm leadscrews would be fine, to get 10m/min you only need 400 rpm
03:24 AM XXCoder: theres ways to seal screws
03:24 AM XXCoder: and still can slide
03:24 AM XXCoder: accordians for one
03:24 AM gloops: mount the screws to the side of the rails
03:25 AM gloops: or have an underslung gantry
03:25 AM RyanS: it wouldn't be hard to upgrade to ballscrews if necessary later
03:27 AM gloops: straight change for mountings and screws
03:27 AM archivist: toothed belt is cheap and replaceable
03:27 AM XXCoder: not much of sideforce in plasma
03:27 AM gloops: belt on belt is rigid, can go very fast
03:27 AM RyanS: hmmmm, i thought 1200mm is too long for timing belt?
03:28 AM XXCoder: not timing belt I wouldnt think
03:28 AM XXCoder: or maybe it is but not them wimpy ones used on 3d printers
03:28 AM gloops: no, the belt doesnt move
03:28 AM RyanS: you mean like rack roller but with timing belt?
03:29 AM gloops: yeah the gantry pulls itself along the fixed belt
03:30 AM archivist: there are a number of ways with timing belt, get steel cored for long hard working
03:31 AM gloops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh-AUPAWbPc
03:31 AM XXCoder: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eqHCY4riEfE/maxresdefault.jpg
03:31 AM XXCoder: not quite one we mean
03:31 AM XXCoder: but as you can see belt dont move
03:31 AM RyanS: like this design ? https://www.tea.net.au/Portals/0/uploads/TEA-Linear-Guide-Type-AK.pdf
03:31 AM XXCoder: there is better designs. way better designs
03:31 AM gloops: what they do, stick a belt to the rail, the drive belt lays in that bonded belt, so its a rigid setup, the motor drives a pulley along the drive belt
03:32 AM XXCoder: theres double belt designs
03:32 AM XXCoder: one where belt is meshed on other when its not currently used
03:32 AM gloops: this is all ok but seriously for the sake of an easy belt, screws are better
03:32 AM gloops: yes thats it XXCoder
03:32 AM gloops: easy build
03:32 AM XXCoder: before you ask, its not corexy
03:33 AM XXCoder: FINALLY!! http://3dwrx.com/openbuilds/everman-patent-sml-single.png
03:33 AM XXCoder: found it
03:33 AM RyanS: but a bonded belt is just a rubber R&P
03:33 AM gloops: XXCoder got it
03:34 AM gloops: Ryan well, all gears are ultimately the same principle
03:34 AM gloops: the belt is pre-tensioned to eliminate backlash
03:34 AM XXCoder: rendered http://www.bg-cnc.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/realistic-x-sect.jpg
03:34 AM XXCoder: see how wide belt is
03:34 AM archivist: belt have a nylon or steel core
03:35 AM XXCoder: yeah not them wimpy reprap timing belts at all heh
03:35 AM gloops: leadscrews are self locking too
03:36 AM RyanS: AT5 or AT8 probably better
03:36 AM archivist: all including the repcrap belts
03:37 AM gloops: just remember with r&p and belt and chain, you throw that gantry one way at high speed, then reverse it instantly, your pulleys and motors have to contain that inertia
03:37 AM gloops: leadscrew - not so
03:37 AM XXCoder: gloops: heh a61 is insane on that. 500 pound tombstone with 50 pound part on it move at rapid for 2 inch then stop essentally instantly
03:37 AM XXCoder: I could feel it 6 feet away.
03:38 AM XXCoder: but then it could take it, its expensive machine
03:38 AM gloops: haha, surprising how 50mm box section can lurch on these diy machines
03:39 AM RyanS: why? rubber is flexible , wouldn't that absorb inertia
03:39 AM gloops: if it did you would be losing position
03:40 AM gloops: i mean if it moved to compensate
03:40 AM XXCoder: heh one of crappier machines at work has very low Z rapid speed. that's because if it moved too fast, counterweight would bounce, making Z position unknown.
03:40 AM archivist: innertia is a constant problem regardless of how the machine is driven
03:40 AM gloops: but any backlash present will be found out
03:40 AM XXCoder: arch indeed
03:41 AM RyanS: why would leadscrews be better for inertia?
03:41 AM gloops: because they are self locking
03:41 AM archivist: er wot!
03:41 AM gloops: you put weight on the nut - it doesnt turn
03:42 AM RyanS: wouldn't that bind at fast stop?
03:42 AM gloops: you put weight on a ballscrew nut - it turns
03:42 AM gloops: nah it wont bind
03:43 AM archivist: reverse turning is a different problem or not, to inertia
03:44 AM RyanS: bob the builder , wtf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9QU3YQe-Sc
03:45 AM gloops: archivist what im saying is, the motor has to contain the inertia, i dont know a 30kg gantry at 10m/min, what force is that
03:46 AM RyanS: i dont think HTD is a good choice for double belt
03:46 AM gloops: you stop a belt dead at that speed, only the motor is left to hold the force
03:46 AM archivist: reverse drive being stopped by friction means wear at that point
03:47 AM gloops: with a leadscrew - the screw stops, the nut is locked, the motor isnt holding
03:47 AM Loetmichel: RyanS: that actually looks really nice... the machine i mean
03:47 AM Loetmichel: the sound... not so much ;)
03:47 AM archivist: the leadscrew wears and backlash increases
03:48 AM Loetmichel: gloops: very wrong. ballscrews can be driven by the sled pretty well
03:48 AM gloops: that might happen, but that is a manageable issue, losing steps isnt
03:48 AM Loetmichel: they are NOT self-locking!
03:48 AM gloops: thats what i said Loet, ballscrews are not self locking
03:48 AM gloops: leadscrews are
03:48 AM gloops: thats why a lot dont use balls for the z
03:49 AM Loetmichel: ah. you meant trapezodial?
03:49 AM Loetmichel: i.E acme thread?
03:49 AM gloops: motor off - Z drops under its own weight
03:49 AM gloops: Loet both those are self locking
03:49 AM RyanS: ive seen a lot of z ballscrews on plasma
03:50 AM Loetmichel: trapezodial is self locking for the high tpi stuf..
03:50 AM gloops: theyre fine if you motors have the holding power
03:50 AM gloops: and you dont mind losing position every time you power off
03:50 AM Loetmichel: i have one that is tr12*20, it ISNT selflocking!
03:50 AM Loetmichel: i.e: 20mm per rev movement
03:51 AM gloops: Loet well high number of starts reduces the locking power i think
03:51 AM gloops: the angles are bigger
03:51 AM RyanS: my 3d plinter z just drops
03:58 AM gloops: they use braked motors for these fast machines
04:05 AM gloops: in a nutshell, random numbers - 30kg gantry travelling at 10m.min, requiring 400oz to aquire that speed, when it reverses instantly, the motor now has the extra force of the travelling gantry to hold and pull back at the same speed instantly
04:05 AM gloops: 400oz motor cant do that
04:07 AM gloops: nor may it be able to achieve that speed instantly, it needs to accelerate and decelerate
04:07 AM gloops: 1 meter to do it
04:07 AM RyanS: nema 32 1000oz is what some people use
04:08 AM gloops: yes - its ok talking about what a setup can do at its absolutely max capacity, thats not really its working window though
04:10 AM RyanS: do i even need to slam to a stop with plasma?
04:10 AM gloops: x and y will be stopping to change direction all the time
04:11 AM RyanS: is suspect this why most/all plasma use R&P
04:13 AM RyanS: maybe backlash absorb inertia ?
04:15 AM gloops: i think r&p is popular because it allows long rails cheaply, probably isnt as prone to harsh environment etc
04:17 AM gloops: chain is also popular with plasma
04:18 AM archivist: backlash absorbs nothing
04:41 AM gloops: well, im going to make some log slice xmas decorations, with v carved symbols like celtic runes, gold leafed
04:47 AM RyanS: i'll make a sign on my plasma saying "screw chrismas" or "santa isn't real" :-)
04:47 AM gloops: manufacturers should love xmas
04:47 AM gloops: its when people throw away their money
04:49 AM RyanS: if a customer wants xmas, i suppose ill oblige , scoff when i cut and smile when i deliver
04:52 AM XXCoder: money is money is money
04:54 AM RyanS: xmas was always basically a pagan orgy anyhow, it's not like we need to get all christian about
04:56 AM RyanS: retail greed fits perfectly with the traditional morality of xmas
04:56 AM XXCoder: happy solisence day
04:56 AM XXCoder: blxk fridays is in some ways worse
04:56 AM XXCoder: thurs: "be thankful for what we have".... "noqw buy all that crap!" (friday)
04:57 AM gloops: yes theyll all be dancing round the golden calf
04:57 AM gloops: and every crowd has a silver lining
04:58 AM XXCoder: now to lay horzionally for around 8 hours. laters
04:59 AM RyanS: I wonder what Chrismas advertising in Hell, Michigan looks like
05:02 AM jthornton: morning
05:04 AM RyanS: "Crank up log fire this christmas, Hell is freezing over"
05:07 AM RyanS: jthornton: i did the jitterbug on that pc. 35700 base jitter
05:18 AM jthornton: that's good enough for a pci card
05:19 AM RyanS: no pci slots, i was going to use 7i76e
05:19 AM jthornton: and that too
05:20 AM RyanS: for 12-15m/min ?
05:25 AM jthornton: the machine speed is dependent on hardware, drives, motors etc.
05:26 AM jthornton: my plasma will go 500 IPM
05:27 AM RyanS: R&P, steppers?
05:27 AM archivist: servos being better at high speed
05:27 AM jthornton: http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma-gallery.xhtml
05:28 AM jthornton: nema 23 triple stack steppers, gecko g203v drives, antec 68v power supply
05:28 AM RyanS: they're harder to set up? servos. more likely to crash?
05:30 AM jthornton: I don't understand your question
05:31 AM RyanS: nvm, servos are over my budget
05:33 AM RyanS: is your plasma 4'x2'?
05:33 AM jthornton: x 52" y 36"
05:33 AM RyanS: i like the simplicity of timing belts
05:34 AM jthornton: but I built it so I could slid a 4x8 sheet through and cut anywhere on the sheet... but I can do that where it sits now
05:35 AM RyanS: im going 1200x1200mm (4'x4)
05:37 AM RyanS: so belts are not ideal?
05:38 AM jthornton: they work fine, my mistake was to use too small belts, I changed the X to a larger belt but never changed the Y belts yet
05:40 AM RyanS: what size? they look like 8mm pitch
05:41 AM jthornton: I'd have to measure them a bit later when I go out to the shop, right now I'm sipping my coffee down in the beer cave
05:41 AM RyanS: dont know if theyre XL
05:42 AM jthornton: just guessing I think the Y belts are MXL and the X is XL
05:43 AM jthornton: https://www.mcmaster.com/#timing-belts/=19t1jo9.
05:43 AM jthornton: I'm pretty sure that's the X belt minus the extra dot at the end
05:44 AM RyanS: we call workshops man caves, so beer cave is interesting
05:44 AM jthornton: I can brew 25 gallon batches of beer but don't make very often any more had to cut down on my beer
05:45 AM jthornton: I also make wine down here
05:45 AM RyanS: well, usually a shed, or garage , but workshop is more accurate
05:46 AM jthornton: I'm in my basement at the moment and when I'm JT-Shop I'm out in my machine shop
05:48 AM RyanS: you want to by a hybrid VM/LM stainless steel still with shell and tube condenser? in my garage--only $2000 but thats just shipping from australia
05:51 AM jthornton: I can distill small batches for fuel but rarely do that
05:52 AM RyanS: this could do 98% , but i haven't tested it
05:53 AM RyanS: well, i distilled water
05:53 AM RyanS: to test
05:57 AM jthornton: http://learntomoonshine.com/how-to-make-a-reflux-still-complete-plans-to-build-a-homemade-still
05:57 AM jthornton: mine is similar to that but with a water heater
05:58 AM RyanS: i had a bonkers idea to make liqueur because buying 95% pure alcohol is 'too expensive', $3000 later....
05:58 AM archivist: same goes for PCB milling :)
05:59 AM jthornton: you would have had a lot of alcohol with 3k
05:59 AM RyanS: its like that, but overengineered
06:00 AM RyanS: BSM and triclover fittings all over the place
06:03 AM RyanS: i'm not sure the BSM idea was anything more than, it seemed like a good idea and looked like 'serious industrial gear' <facepalm>
06:04 AM jthornton: I thought I'd get up before the chickens this morning so I could watch them on camera when the light came on but the light came on at 4:27am and I didn't get down here till 4:33am
06:07 AM RyanS: they would've been running around like a 'chook without a head' (i'm not sure if thats an Australian phrase )
06:08 AM jthornton: I think chook is Australian
06:09 AM jthornton: and google says so
06:11 AM jthornton: wow 1/2 way through the month and I have an extra 2GB of data on the satellite internet
06:12 AM RyanS: i'm not enough of an 'okka' to say 'chook' or 'g'day' or 'strueth'--well, i'd say it sarcastically
06:13 AM MarcelineVQ: busted chook? chuck her in the ute
06:14 AM RyanS: your satellite is probably faster than our 5mbit/s ADSL and we're only 20min from Melbourne CBD/city!
06:15 AM RyanS: in the ute? ya flamin' gallah!
06:16 AM RyanS: get a dingo up yah
06:16 AM MarcelineVQ: oi ye? come at me then ya yobbo
06:16 AM jthornton: I'm surprised that a speed test says 12.3 Mbps download and 2.5 Mbps upload
06:17 AM MarcelineVQ: RyanS: I'm all out of slang tho
06:17 AM RyanS: i think they talk like that in Queensland
06:20 AM RyanS: I hate Paul Hogan, even more since the 'shrimp on the barbie' thing, for one, its a prawn, not a shrimp
06:21 AM RyanS: "don't come the raw prawn" there's another one
06:23 AM MarcelineVQ: "Shrimp. *Picture of a prawn.* Fosters, it's australian for beer."
06:24 AM miss0r: That feeling, when you have just put your mill back together, and a glass scale reader is acting up...
06:25 AM RyanS: jthornton our government thought it'd be wise to run fibre optic to the exchange node rather than premises, and it was a $50bn national upgrade , people are lucky to be getting 25mbit
06:26 AM jthornton: obumble ran fiber all over the place but it is not connected to anything around here fiber 1.6 miles from my house lol
06:27 AM RyanS: our house is 5mbps , can't get onto the new network
06:28 AM RyanS: i'd rather Obumble, than Trumpageddon
06:32 AM miss0r: damnit! Theres nothing in the manual that tells me where +/- supply or anything about this
06:40 AM archivist: some manuals have a wiring table/list
07:22 AM gloops: my workshop gradually moves back in time, got an old champion drill coming lol
07:22 AM gloops: still, the old ones are the best
07:26 AM archivist: someone been at the fleabay again!
07:27 AM miss0r: Who ever it was who gave me the idea of adding a denim tube to the cable chain - great idea!: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20171014_135443-8IkT9O5A.jpg
07:27 AM archivist: and another pops up on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CG-T-Matrix-Floating-Carriage-Micrometer-0-4-Diameter-Measuring-Machine-/112596354101
07:28 AM archivist: ew that will hold the grease and grime
07:29 AM RyanS: bizzare idea
07:31 AM miss0r: indeed. but it will keep chips from packing around the cables
07:35 AM miss0r: my god. The machine is like new :D Nothing sounds strained anymore. and the refrence search is done in mere seconds now. This guy realy knows his stuff!
07:36 AM miss0r: Don't you just love it, when a plan comes together?! :D
07:37 AM miss0r: ... now I just need to figure out what all these screws are for :P
07:40 AM JT-Shop: always some extra screws lol
07:44 AM miss0r: I just had a dial indicator on each axis. Not it smoothly moves 0.001mm at a time. before it made small jumps of around 0.007-8 at a time... :D I should've done this a long time ago
07:45 AM gloops: see, it wasnt a disaster the machine jamming up like that
07:46 AM gloops: it was a blessing, now its like new
07:46 AM miss0r: yeah. But it sure felt like a disaster at the time ;)
07:47 AM gloops: it feels like a disaster when you get a flat tire in the middle of nowhere, but you might have avoided a fatal collision
07:49 AM miss0r: now... thats a bit of a stretch. but sure ;)
07:53 AM gloops: how many worn machines out there selling cheap that could be restored, if you only know how
08:06 AM SpeedEvil: miss0r: :)
09:50 AM miss0r: Better get back inside the house and make it look like ive been doing alot of cleaning before the misses gets home... Wouldn't want her to think I was in the shop all day... :) see you aroundf
09:57 AM archivist: but it is Saturday, a play day
10:21 AM IchGucksLive: hi all from Germany its a wonderfull day outside
10:22 AM IchGucksLive: RyanS: still online
10:42 AM IchGucksLive: later
12:02 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:29 PM IchGucksLive: hi gloops
12:30 PM gloops: evening Ichs
12:38 PM gloops: anything happening in the world of linuxcnc?
12:43 PM IchGucksLive: no many go over to other crap
12:55 PM gloops: well bbl
12:56 PM IchGucksLive: Gn8
02:21 PM chopper79: Hello all!
02:22 PM gloops: evening
02:22 PM Deejay: hey
02:22 PM chopper79: Looking at a new computer for a machine I am working on. Was wondering if anybody has had any good feedback using an Intel i3 or the intel 4415U?
02:23 PM chopper79: Using it with Mesa 7i76E
02:24 PM chopper79: Other option would be a AMD A8 -7410
02:24 PM chopper79: The Intel i3 is the i3-7100
02:32 PM absynth is now known as dan2wik
02:34 PM evilroot: Stay away from the A8
02:35 PM evilroot: Reliability problems from my experience
02:35 PM evilroot: i3 is solid
02:39 PM chopper79: evilroot: i3 is the top choice, but also looking at the Intel 4415. They seem simliar, but was not sure if anybody has used the 4415 with LCNC and a ether based Mesa card.
03:02 PM evilroot: Go with the i3
03:03 PM chopper79: Will do... Thanks.
03:04 PM evilroot: Damn, looks like I might have to move to a different work space sooner than I though
03:04 PM evilroot: grrrr
03:36 PM Deejay: gn8
03:43 PM gloops: so, in laymans terms, how does the 2 steppers on one axis config work again
03:53 PM XXCoder: LOL https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2564007
03:53 PM XXCoder: oops wrong channel
03:58 PM Tom_itx: gloops, works under 2.8
03:58 PM Tom_itx: can't say i've tried it though
04:02 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:04 PM gloops: yeah ive read some forum posts about it Tom, i can probably work it out (hopefully)
04:05 PM gloops: not ready to set it up for weeks but better to have it clear how to do it beforehand
05:22 PM Crom: Man I hate Broadcom 43xx wifi cards
05:24 PM Crom: only took 2 weeks to figure out to get it working
05:24 PM Crom: figure out how to
06:05 PM nullifier: I have a linksys AC wifi adapter that will BSOD any windows 10 machine you plug it into after it loads the driver
06:06 PM nullifier: so much fun, that one
06:20 PM Crom: Fixing a Logan 820 Lathe over at a friends shop... Stuck a Shars AXA on it, to get carbide 1/2" insert holder down to center line I have to give either the tool holder or the insert holder a 0.0625" trim off the bottom.
06:23 PM gloops: tool holder
06:23 PM gloops: no i mean insert holder
06:25 PM gloops: alls i do, i got a grinding wheel that fits in the chuck, put the tool in the post, send it past the wheel
06:52 PM jdh: grind every insert holder or one AXA?
07:14 PM gloops: use 3/8th tools
07:14 PM gloops: the tool holder is transferable
07:38 PM ziper: i dont get how precision grinders work
07:38 PM ziper: it must be very far removed from the wheel in the corner of the garage that you use for sharpening old junk
07:41 PM gregcnc_: similar to the difference between a cheap drill press and a mill
07:43 PM ziper: is there a big difference in the abrasive wheel?
07:54 PM SpeedEvil: ziper: no.
07:54 PM SpeedEvil: ziper: to a first approximation at least. As long as it's dressed, your average grinder wheel will work fine
07:54 PM SpeedEvil: The key is the precise ways and movements over the surface.
07:55 PM SpeedEvil: To a first approximation, dressing the wheel and then moving the wheel over the surface in a repeated pattern, followed by a much lighter cut a couple of times will closely approach the flatness of the ways
07:55 PM ziper: interesting
07:56 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmCgQFCXj8
07:56 PM SpeedEvil: making a small surface grinder
07:56 PM SpeedEvil: (not yet complete)
08:11 PM ziper: grit doesnt really matter?
08:15 PM roycroft: grit quality matters
08:15 PM roycroft: it's always best if you have true grit
08:21 PM ziper: is there some loss of rigidity from having the rails shimmed?
08:22 PM SpeedEvil: ziper: the grinder they are making is aimed at taking stuff down to a flatness of about half a thou.
08:23 PM SpeedEvil: There are many shortcuts you can take if you're willing to do this.
08:31 PM ziper: these guys make really good videos im suprised i havnt heard of them before
08:39 PM sync: SpeedEvil: there are huge differences in the wheel
08:39 PM sync: if you are doing production work, a lot of engineering will go into the abrasive
08:39 PM SpeedEvil: sync: yes. I mean that a 'normal' grinder can do really surprisingly accurate work.
08:40 PM SpeedEvil: From the perspective of someone considering it as a 'rough' tool.
08:40 PM SpeedEvil: ^normal grinder wheel
08:40 PM sync: well, to some degree, yes
08:41 PM SpeedEvil: If you've got a proper surface grinder, you shouldn't be putting $5 wheels on it generally.
08:41 PM sync: $5 wheels don't work really well on a bench grinder tho
08:41 PM sync: $25 ones work well
08:41 PM sync: at least ime
08:41 PM sync: the cheap ones are just pressed junk
08:43 PM sync: there is also a suprising difference between the cheapest cutoff wheels for the angle grinder and good quality ones
08:47 PM ziper: what do you call the thing he is using with the tap https://youtu.be/KQZS6bmTJ7Y?t=5m17s
09:09 PM sync: ha, rack and pinion
09:09 PM sync: that will give some nice peaks and valleys
09:09 PM sync: ~produce even
09:15 PM SpeedEvil: ziper: I think it's just a hunk of metal with a hole of about the diameter of the tap to hold it vertical
09:16 PM SpeedEvil: sync: yeah - but probably enough to improve on a lathe with ~9 thou bed wear
09:16 PM ziper: whats wrong with rack and pinion
09:16 PM sync: yeah, although there are commercial tap guides
09:16 PM sync: ziper: lots
09:17 PM sync: it provides uneven force normal to the direction of the carriage
09:17 PM ziper: i cringed when he mentioned it too but i want to know why
09:17 PM ziper: oh
09:17 PM sync: you get the pattern of the rack showing up in the part you grind
09:18 PM sync: SpeedEvil: I'd just scrape it out
09:19 PM sync: or send it off to be ground, that's suprisingly cheap
09:19 PM ziper: by hand?
09:19 PM SpeedEvil: The lathe they're doing it on was $200
09:20 PM SpeedEvil: Though at this point they've probably got that much in paint in it
09:21 PM sync: no, with a biax ziper
09:22 PM ziper: still, how could you get a good flat surface like that?
09:22 PM sync: yes
09:22 PM sync: well, you just compare it to a master
09:26 PM ziper: when he is cutting the threaded rod, does he need any special feeds or speeds or just treat it like solid stock of the major diameter?
09:34 PM ziper: sync, and what master would you use?
09:44 PM sync: granite or strongback