#linuxcnc Logs

Oct 02 2017

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:00 AM Cromaglious_: Just ordered all the stuff to repour my babbitt bearings for my Sheldon lathe
01:03 AM Cromaglious_: now to figure out how to space it up to be in the center of the bore
01:04 AM IchGucksLive: morning from germany
01:26 AM IchGucksLive: rain outside off 2 garden
01:45 AM gloops: 2x1 metre ballscrews in post lol
01:53 AM gloops: the illusion that building was over lasted a few days, the reality is that building is never over
02:27 AM Deejay: mon
02:27 AM Deejay: eh, moin ;)
02:44 AM archivist: Cromaglious_, on a lathe I replaced bearings, I used a parallel reamer guided from the tailstock
02:45 AM archivist: in the factory they may have bored the tailstock and head at one setting
03:30 AM selroc: helooo
03:35 AM slipalong: Anyone running a touch screen on there CNC controller?
03:35 AM archivist: more than one
03:35 AM slipalong: Do you have a keyboard connected?
03:35 AM archivist: I dont
03:35 AM archivist: I dont use a touch screen!
03:36 AM slipalong: great you are the man I need to speak to!!
03:36 AM slipalong: oh
03:36 AM slipalong: Im confused
03:36 AM archivist: in here ask the real question not a meta question
03:37 AM archivist: you escaped the other day when someone replied to a kb question
03:39 AM slipalong: Im trying to run without a keyboard. but Cant get the greeter screen to show a keyboard so I can log in
03:39 AM archivist: he said something like have you tried "touchy"
03:39 AM James is now known as Guest39052
03:39 AM slipalong: Its just logging in to the OS is the problem at the moment
03:40 AM archivist: ask an OS channel then
03:40 AM slipalong: Im wondering about installing debian stretch?
03:41 AM slipalong: Then linuxcnc ontop
03:41 AM archivist: then there is a lot of faffing about setting up realtime etc
03:44 AM slipalong: I though I had seen some linuxcnc stretch images somewhere. I will try searching
03:53 AM IchGucksLive: hi from raini germany :(
03:53 AM IchGucksLive: slipalong: what woudt be the benefit
03:54 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: still online helllo
03:54 AM slipalong: Im trying to run my system with touch screen only
03:54 AM slipalong: but the greeted login screen will not show the keyboard
03:54 AM IchGucksLive: slipalong: so do a autologin
03:54 AM selroc: hello
03:55 AM IchGucksLive: slipalong: this is the best way to go
03:55 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: if you need help you needd to ask
03:55 AM slipalong: ok I will look into it. Thanks!
03:56 AM selroc: thanks, at the moment I am still thinking about how to build my new cnc
03:57 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: mill router plasma ...
03:57 AM IchGucksLive: cb size or wood master
03:57 AM IchGucksLive: pcb
03:58 AM selroc: mill innovative build with structural aluminum
03:58 AM IchGucksLive: 4-5Axis
03:59 AM IchGucksLive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzqN-yL2LGs
03:59 AM IchGucksLive: i casn give you the files
03:59 AM selroc: 3 axis with 4/5 as optional mount
03:59 AM IchGucksLive: or it is alredy uploaded to grabcad
03:59 AM IchGucksLive: 3 is best for stiffness
03:59 AM IchGucksLive: on 4th you need more Z
04:00 AM IchGucksLive: on 5 you may need alot of Z more
04:00 AM IchGucksLive: look at my 5Axis on the channel
04:00 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: the aluprofiles are 130Euros here in germany redy to mount on 0,2mm
04:01 AM IchGucksLive: its a 45x45 hevy profile
04:01 AM selroc: I have that too 45x45
04:02 AM IchGucksLive: the negative is you might want a real stiff HWIN 20 to be mounted
04:02 AM IchGucksLive: then you need a extra ground plate
04:03 AM IchGucksLive: http://www.ebay.de/itm/EU-6Pcs-Square-Linear-Rail-Guide-L-400-700-1000mm-Ballscrew-1605-400-700-1000mm-/152680647211
04:03 AM IchGucksLive: this is the railsystem i use
04:04 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: where in the world are you
04:04 AM selroc: I have 3 axes to mount
04:04 AM selroc: I am in Rome
04:05 AM IchGucksLive: the mashine you see is 1780 Euros selfbuild comeated with 1,5Kw VFD spindle aircooled
04:06 AM selroc: that is a small machine
04:06 AM IchGucksLive: 850x550x250mm workfield
04:07 AM selroc: my axes are 600x300x300
04:07 AM IchGucksLive: what is your expected size
04:08 AM IchGucksLive: moving or raillength
04:08 AM selroc: travel 1200 on x
04:08 AM selroc: or no
04:08 AM IchGucksLive: if you need to go that 1,2m
04:08 AM selroc: the travel is 600 on x
04:09 AM IchGucksLive: you may want to go for SBR20
04:09 AM selroc: and 300 on y
04:09 AM selroc: big spindle
04:09 AM IchGucksLive: http://www.ebay.de/itm/DE-SHIP-SBR20-CNC-Linear-Rail-Set-3-Ballscrew-RM1605-350-650-1050-BK-BF-Bearing-/162478017368
04:09 AM IchGucksLive: its around 300 euros
04:09 AM IchGucksLive: set
04:10 AM IchGucksLive: but you can also buy spares
04:10 AM IchGucksLive: http://www.cnc-discount.de/
04:10 AM selroc: I have the axes already, work is design and buld the structure
04:10 AM IchGucksLive: ok
04:11 AM IchGucksLive: and elecronics
04:11 AM IchGucksLive: http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/4A_cab.jpg
04:11 AM IchGucksLive: up to 75V to go for 8Nm steppers
04:12 AM IchGucksLive: 5axis ready
04:12 AM selroc: my controller is MESA hardware
04:12 AM IchGucksLive: par or ethernet
04:12 AM IchGucksLive: 7i76
04:12 AM selroc: yes
04:12 AM selroc: par
04:12 AM IchGucksLive: http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/schrank.jpg
04:13 AM selroc: with pci card
04:13 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: bet is to go for a 7i92 ethernet to the 7i76
04:13 AM selroc: step motors nema 34 powered at 48 V
04:13 AM IchGucksLive: 5i25 is corresponding pci
04:13 AM IchGucksLive: selroc: you got a cool setp
04:14 AM IchGucksLive: im off till later 7pm Europ time
04:14 AM selroc: ciao Ich
04:25 AM slipalong: IchGucksLive: auto login worked. Thanks for the suggestion.
05:13 AM jthornton: morning
05:13 AM selroc: hello
07:34 AM rene-dev: skunkworks Hi
07:34 AM skunkworks: hi
07:36 AM rene-dev: skunkworks I was googeling for jerk limit in linuxcnc, and found some old irc logs from you, where you worked on this
07:37 AM skunkworks: I did a little testing on it..
07:37 AM skunkworks: it still wasn't 100%
07:38 AM rene-dev: I added vel and acc outputs to motion, because the vel-cmd output is only the difference from the last segment, not the current velocity
07:38 AM rene-dev: ah, you only tested it? do you know where the code is?
07:38 AM rene-dev: I guess it was still with the old tp?
07:38 AM skunkworks: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/tree/micges/master/limited_jerk
07:41 AM skunkworks: I think that is it.
07:41 AM skunkworks: it was the old tp (one segment look ahead)
07:41 AM rene-dev: ok, thanks... do you know what worked and what didnt?
08:02 AM nallar is now known as Ross
08:05 AM skunkworks: rene-dev, All I remember is it still had a lot of acc/vel constraint violations.
08:06 AM rene-dev: hmm, ok. I will see what works and what doesnt.
09:18 AM Loetmichel: harhar, my brave littke Antminer u1 (BTC miner) has mined a whopping 6ct in the last 4 weeks. If i wanst crazy how long that littke chip will last constantly overclocked to 2.8 ghs it would been trashed un 2014 ;)
11:25 AM Crom: oOff to fight the dragons at the Veterans Administration, see if i can get some of my $142,000 back.
11:31 AM CaptHindsight: Crom: best wishes!
11:32 AM pcw_home: Bring your red tape scissors...
11:36 AM hiroshima5: could somebody help me with kinematics??
11:39 AM hiroshima5: i have a 5 axis
11:40 AM hiroshima5: with rotary over Yaxis (B) and rotary of a table over X axis (A)
11:41 AM archivist: I assume A is mounted on B
11:42 AM hiroshima5: nop
11:42 AM hiroshima5: A is the rotation of the table
11:42 AM hiroshima5: and B is the rotation of the spindle
11:43 AM hiroshima5: https://i.imgur.com/bjLDe04.jpg
11:45 AM archivist: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/ja/html/motion/5-axis-kinematics.html
11:46 AM hiroshima5: is something like
11:46 AM hiroshima5: Figure 10. Spindle/table tilting configuration
11:46 AM hiroshima5: but X Y and Z is on the spindle
11:47 AM hiroshima5: could you help me with matrix sequence?
11:49 AM archivist: probably find it is equivalent to xy under just the direction is opposite
11:49 AM hiroshima5: the problem is that there no explain for that model
11:49 AM hiroshima5: in the link
11:50 AM hiroshima5: it is only the figure
11:53 AM archivist: cradek, knows kins way better than most, my maths is not that good
11:54 AM hiroshima5: let's go to ask him
12:14 PM gloops: youll get this going before xmas hiroshima relax lol
12:24 PM hiroshima5: gloops hehehee
12:24 PM hiroshima5: i don't think so
12:26 PM IchGucksLive: hi from germany
12:26 PM gloops: Ichs will put you right
12:27 PM gloops: 5 axis config wants sorting Ichs
12:28 PM IchGucksLive: geometry = aBxyz
12:29 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: like mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbVUEcMGrdE
12:31 PM hiroshima5: Mine is different
12:31 PM hiroshima5: B is on the spindle
12:31 PM hiroshima5: and A in the table
12:31 PM hiroshima5: and XYZ is the movement of the spindle
12:36 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: let me look
12:37 PM IchGucksLive: first of all do you got a postprocessor for that or are you building first
12:40 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: like that one without a C http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/gantry_router.html
12:42 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: or mountet only like this one
12:42 PM IchGucksLive: http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/cnc_a2.gif
12:43 PM IchGucksLive: 5Axis Mill with A rotary table sits vertically on the mill table The Spindle pivots on the B-Axis which is attatched to the Z-Axis
12:57 PM hiroshima5: IchGucksLive: is like the second one
12:57 PM hiroshima5: the spindle pivots on the B-Axis
12:57 PM IchGucksLive: ok
12:57 PM IchGucksLive: so you got a liniar delta kionetics
01:02 PM hiroshima5: it isn't a delta
01:02 PM hiroshima5: is cartesian XYZ
01:02 PM hiroshima5: the spindle pivot over Y axis
01:02 PM hiroshima5: and besides the table where the workpiece sits
01:02 PM hiroshima5: can pivot on X axis
01:03 PM IchGucksLive: but you got to fix the kinetics on the max axis
01:04 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/maxkins.9.html
01:05 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: just change the Rotary to A
01:06 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: open a terminal and dio a locate maxkins
01:09 PM IchGucksLive: here is the coresponding C file https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/af15a4d90e1d51d5309db65fe1c9511e486df411/src/emc/kinematics/maxkins.c
01:14 PM hiroshima5: thanks IchGucksLive
01:14 PM hiroshima5: i've not seen this one
01:15 PM hiroshima5: And the offsets???
01:16 PM hiroshima5: I have X Y Z offsets from the 0 of the machine to the X rotary axis of the table
01:20 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: i dont use this mashine type so i need to look my own how is the best way to go for this
01:23 PM gloops: C7 accuracy ballscrews...
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: # set offset parameters
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: net :tool-offset motion.tooloffset.z xyzba-trt-kins.tool-offset
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: setp xyzba-trt-kins.x-offset 0
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: setp xyzba-trt-kins.z-offset 20
01:25 PM gloops: ±50/
01:25 PM gloops: 300mm < what is that 50 thousands of a millimetre? or .5mm!
01:39 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: is there a XYZACkins.c file on your system
01:43 PM IchGucksLive: hiroshima5: best way for your mashine kinetics is to start there
01:43 PM IchGucksLive: and open a forum tread
01:44 PM IchGucksLive: on that there are people that will help you on this math
01:45 PM IchGucksLive: the hal will then hold the offsets
01:45 PM IchGucksLive: XYZBAkins
01:46 PM IchGucksLive: like in the file for AC
01:47 PM IchGucksLive: im off Gn8
02:03 PM miss0r: :-/ I seem to have determined I have some significant backlash in my 25x5 ballscrew/nut assembly on my good'ol maho mill
02:03 PM miss0r: Looking up spare part pricing - so far everything seems quite expensive :-(
02:05 PM gloops: what do you call significant miss0r?
02:06 PM miss0r: 0.069mm
02:06 PM gloops: i just bought 2 1 metre ballscrews for £68 lol, my expectations arent that high tbh
02:07 PM miss0r: that number is almost ridiculously high
02:08 PM gloops: not to me, but i work with wood
02:08 PM gloops: absolutely sure it is backlash in the screw/nut?
02:09 PM miss0r: hard to pinpoint exactly. as the table that rides on the x-axis weighs around 350kg. but it seems so. No backlash in the bearings locking the ballscrew axial movement
02:10 PM miss0r: none that I can measure anyway
02:10 PM gloops: shaft connector?
02:11 PM miss0r: shaft connector?
02:12 PM enleth: miss0r: is there a way to touch your finger to the screw and nut inside without risking losing the hand? human skin has excellent sensitivity to relative movement of surfaces
02:12 PM gloops: any pulley or sleeve or anything on the screw - to the motor?
02:12 PM miss0r: enleth: What am I trying to feel? movement between nut and screw?
02:12 PM enleth: miss0r: yes, preferably when someone else tries to move the table back and forth when the screw is locked
02:13 PM miss0r: gloops: yeah. but this test is done by manually turning tha ballscrew, and looking at dials
02:13 PM gloops: ok
02:13 PM gloops: well, you can get oversize bearings
02:14 PM miss0r: enleth. When using a dead-blow hammer I can make the table move said amount. But I have not felt down there while someone else did anything.
02:14 PM miss0r: (alone in the shop tonight)
02:14 PM miss0r: enleth: Also; I cannot move the table with just using mussle power.
02:15 PM miss0r: I can turn the pulley on the ballscrew by hand with no problems. but moving the table - even giving it a nice 'hip-blow' is not possible for me
02:16 PM hiroshima5: IchGucksLive many thanks for your help
02:16 PM miss0r: and i'm a pretty sizeable fellah' of around 250 pounds ish
02:16 PM enleth: miss0r: get someone to use the hammer when you try to feel it maybe? relative movement of as little as 0.01mm will easily register on a fingertip unless your skin is very thick from work and handling stuff
02:16 PM hiroshima5: I would try to change the .c file this night
02:17 PM enleth: miss0r: it's impossible to tell how much stuff moved, but you'll feel it move
02:18 PM miss0r: enleth. I do have some feeling left. The thing that points in this direction is: When I turn the pulley on the ballscrew, I can do around 5 degrees of turning before anything starts to move on the dial indicator. I have also had the dial indicator located in the center of the end of the ballscrew, and that didn't move at all while turning
02:19 PM miss0r: So, assuming the ballnut is fixed properly to the frame(It is), I can't seem to wrap my head around what else it could be.
02:19 PM enleth: ok, that does implicate backlash
02:19 PM miss0r: Another site not: When the table starts to move, it sometimes gives off a small audible *bumb* sound, like something is binding somewhere.
02:19 PM enleth: how old is that screw?
02:20 PM miss0r: presumably as old as the machine: 1986 :]
02:20 PM enleth: well, that note actually suggests a loose nut mount or bearing
02:20 PM enleth: does it happen when you change direction?
02:21 PM enleth: or even when you move in one direction a couple times in a row?
02:21 PM miss0r: it happens when I change direction fast. like doing a fast zigzag movement
02:21 PM enleth: my bridgeport did that when the Y ballscrew thrust bearing came loose and bumped around by 0.3mm or so on every Y reverse
02:21 PM miss0r: if that makes any sense.
02:22 PM miss0r: also, it does so if the machine has been at idle for a while
02:22 PM enleth: interesting
02:22 PM enleth: have you ever had it apart completely?
02:24 PM enleth: or at least the relevant part of it
02:24 PM miss0r: Never more than the covers'n such
02:25 PM miss0r: I don't realy have a way to remove the table. I don't have enough space in here to bring in a motor lift
02:25 PM enleth: not even a cherry picker engine hoist?
02:25 PM enleth: the regular chinese one will handle 350kg pretty well
02:25 PM miss0r: I'm very tightly packed in here
02:26 PM enleth: that doesn't bode well for ballscrew replacement either
02:26 PM enleth: unless there is a way to pull it out without removing the table
02:26 PM miss0r: there is
02:26 PM miss0r: or so it seems anyway
02:26 PM enleth: it's a rotating screw an stationary nut design?
02:27 PM miss0r: yeah
02:27 PM enleth: when you're sure it's the nut that's bad, you might want to try re-balling it before buying a new one
02:28 PM miss0r: thats not a half bad idea.
02:28 PM enleth: unless it's some weird ass alternating ball size design, it might just work
02:28 PM enleth: as long as you figure out what's the factory ball size and how much to correct for screw wear
02:28 PM miss0r: althou, I want to me more than just sure its the ballscrew/nut before doing any dissassembly.
02:29 PM miss0r: The service information on this machine is somewhat scarse
02:29 PM enleth: how much space is there around the nut?
02:29 PM enleth: any way to attach a mag base to the screw and point an indicator at the nut?
02:30 PM gregcnc: balls don't cost that much compared to a rebuild or replacement, just measure carefully and buy several sizes
02:30 PM enleth: gregcnc: good point
02:30 PM enleth: I'd probably try to go slightly oversized first compared to the factory size
02:30 PM enleth: if it jams up, replace with smaller balls until it's smooth
02:31 PM enleth: if it's got to the point there's a mile of backlash on it, something must be pretty worn out
02:31 PM miss0r: enleth, I am trying to get the dial indicator mounted, so I can measure on the nut from a stationary point. I can't attach it to the ballscrew
02:33 PM miss0r: I need new wipers for the ways, that much is certain
02:33 PM miss0r: I wondered what that black granulate was....
02:35 PM miss0r: hmmm... It seems a get a little movement on the ballnut before I get movement on the table
02:36 PM miss0r: which in my mind means one of two things; cheap option: the nut is somehow a bit loose. catastrophic option: exessive wear in the linear ways
02:40 PM miss0r: mostly it seems I have some binding. Either that or the backlash in the ballnut is somewhat 'elastic'
02:41 PM sync: could be the wipers springing
02:41 PM sync: I once wondered why I had backlash in a ballscrew
02:42 PM sync: turned out that the balls were gone
02:42 PM sync: and only the wiper was acting as a nut
02:42 PM miss0r: :o that just made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside
02:44 PM enleth: sync: must have been a very solid wiper if what you saw could still be plausibly suspected to be backlash
02:45 PM enleth: miss0r: how is the nut connected to the table?
02:46 PM sync: enleth: yes, they were very tight fitting pieces of POM#
02:47 PM miss0r: enleth; its fixed with 6 8mm allen bolts
02:48 PM gloops: first thing to check?
02:48 PM enleth: miss0r: so it's got an integrated flange, it's not a cylindrical one in a clamp?
02:48 PM miss0r: and they are tight. Another thing to add to the trouble shooting here: once the table is 'moving' by hand, I seem unable to make it move smoothly. even thoy I apply a continous rotation to the ballscrew, it seems to want to leap 0.1mm at a time on the dial
02:49 PM miss0r: enleth: I'll have to loosen it to be sure about that. Will do so. hang on
02:49 PM enleth: miss0r: you might want to completely remove the gibs, clean them and readjust
02:50 PM enleth: I mean, I assumed this machine has solid ways
02:51 PM sync: yeah and make sure that it is lube properly
02:53 PM miss0r: I don't think it has gibs to be honnest. I've never been able to locate them
02:53 PM miss0r: It seems everything is just precision fitted
02:54 PM enleth: miss0r: dovetail ways?
02:54 PM miss0r: square box ways
02:54 PM enleth: ah
02:54 PM enleth: well, I've never worked on a machine with box ways, so I'm out of ideas
02:54 PM enleth: unless
02:55 PM enleth: miss0r: that means the table is held on by gravity only, right?
02:55 PM enleth: you sure you can't lift it up with a couple wood blocks and a prybar to clean out the ways?
02:56 PM enleth: or maybe two bottle jacks and some wood
02:56 PM enleth: bottle jacks are obviously easier to lower back down
02:57 PM miss0r: enleth: I got the ballnut removed: Its flanged. and it was solidly in place it would seem.
02:57 PM miss0r: i'm realy getting to know my machine here...
02:58 PM miss0r: hang on, i'll draw a quick sketch in paint showing the ways
03:00 PM miss0r: http://picpaste.com/ways-xECu6zCn.png
03:01 PM miss0r: The red part is the table. The black part are the bearing surfaces of the linear ways on the mill
03:01 PM miss0r: so theres a dovetail in there
03:01 PM enleth: that's one weird way setup
03:01 PM miss0r: Also, the red part to the right of the square black boxway, it bolted to the rest of the assembly
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: box and dove
03:02 PM miss0r: so I guess that part could be remove and ground ever so slightly to get some more squeeze
03:03 PM miss0r: heh, even with the ballnut removed, I cannot move the x axis by manhandling it
03:04 PM Jymmm: miss0r: What if you womanhandle it?
03:04 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: pc pc personhandle it
03:04 PM miss0r: lol
03:05 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: I'm on a Mac, not a PC
03:05 PM miss0r: I'll go get my wife, but i'm pretty sure she will just look at me like i'm a complete idiot with that request :)
03:05 PM Jymmm: miss0r: Just get it on film =)
03:06 PM miss0r: trying to determin if theres a gib hiding under the dovetail somewhere
03:06 PM miss0r: Any other good ideas at this point?
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: how are things there with the fires, critters, insects etc?
03:06 PM Jymmm: miss0r: does beating it with a deadbow hammer make any difference?
03:07 PM CaptHindsight: you must have had a busy summer
03:07 PM miss0r: Jymmm: as in moving it slightly? yes
03:07 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Those are all good, it's just the two legged ones that are the most trouble now.
03:08 PM Jymmm: miss0r: I have no clue, don't listen to me, but I'll say this... charcoal lighter fluid removes grease rather easily during rebuilds
03:09 PM miss0r: thanks ;)
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: also eyebrows if you light it to closely, ask me how I know :)
03:09 PM gregcnc: jymmm it's essentially parts cleaner solvent
03:10 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: pic or it didn't happen!
03:10 PM CaptHindsight: years ago
03:10 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: again, pic or it didn't happen!
03:10 PM CaptHindsight: when pics were on film
03:11 PM CaptHindsight: <-- holds photo up to LCD monitor and says "see"
03:11 PM gloops: youre missing the gib screws, theyre always smeared over with grime
03:11 PM Jymmm: gregcnc: naphtha, same as in coleman fuel, ligter/charcoal fluid, and EXCELLENT at removing adhesive/tape/stickers/ from stuff without damaging plastics.
03:11 PM gloops: have a scrape round, i found 2 new ones on my old lathe id never noticed for 5 years
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: they might have been hiding, like socks in a dryer
03:12 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: take a photo of the photo and post!
03:12 PM gloops: you also got the internal screws
03:13 PM gregcnc: there are specific grades used. I used to use lamp oil, but found there are two types one of which doesn't dissolve machine goo
03:13 PM gregcnc: but many things work
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: Genie Lamp Oil
03:14 PM gloops: Capt - i only wear yellow socks just in the event of that
03:15 PM gregcnc: maho 600 http://cncmanual.com/doc-images/2824.png
03:16 PM gloops: the thing to do with this, you have a problem, - some movement in the travel, you need a plan to deal with this, instead of faffing about with this and that in specific order
03:16 PM gloops: no specific order
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: who was faffing?
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: and why
03:16 PM gloops: so write down all the things it could be - that do not require major work, and eleminate those first
03:17 PM gregcnc: miss0r now that you removed the nut from the table is it loose on the screw? i would expect a fair preload
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: <--- goes back to working on TeensyHAL stuff
03:18 PM miss0r: gregcnc: it turns with no efford, but I can't feel any backlash
03:18 PM gloops: a binding carriage wont cause backlash
03:20 PM miss0r: gloops: it might. if the ballscrew ends up flexing a bit before exerting enough force to move the table
03:20 PM gregcnc: add forces to move things you have backlash
03:21 PM miss0r: This issue pains me in more than one way - the obvious one; stuff is not working as it shoud. The less obvious one; I do alot of hardened workpeices.. Thoes chips hurt like a motherf....
03:21 PM gloops: well its a 350kg carriage to start he said
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: how long do you wait for a customer to pay you (10's of $K's) before consulting an attorney?
03:22 PM gregcnc: before you get the bankruptcy notice
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: heh
03:22 PM gloops: Capt what does it say in the contract?
03:22 PM sync: CaptHindsight: 30 days would be the usual
03:23 PM sync: after that the first notice and after the second ream them another one
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: what if your customers bank account is the US Treasury?
03:25 PM gregcnc: a place I worked had a customer that would only pay when he needed to make another order.
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: heh, oh great
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: yeah had one of those
03:25 PM gregcnc: so when payment arrived, we knew he would order
03:25 PM gregcnc: 6-12 months was normal
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: I only work with customers that prepay now
03:26 PM CaptHindsight: now being the past 30 years
03:26 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: what size order in $?
03:27 PM gloops: i lost out on a guarantee i gave years ago, the person i did the job for died, but the property was sold and the new owners got the guarantee, - lawyer said if i had just written 'not transferable' on the guarantee i would have walked away
03:27 PM gregcnc: under 1k which is why it was tolerated
03:27 PM Roguish: i did some engineering design for a guy. would pay a little, but the owed mounted up. kinda like a ponzi scheme.
03:27 PM gloops: its all about the contract
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: yes, why contracts often get really long or the sales terms
03:28 PM Roguish: owed 8k. when i served him court papers he settles for 5k, the limit for small claims.
03:28 PM Roguish: hope to never run in to him.
03:29 PM Roguish: i still want my 3k. either $$$ or lbs of flesh.
03:29 PM CaptHindsight: I still get those offers of some large order vs paying for development
03:30 PM CaptHindsight: or getting an exclusive on a product we make in exchange for some marketing gimmick
03:31 PM gloops: thing is, if they get a solicitors letter they might get defensive
03:31 PM miss0r: A friend of mine is a contractor. He had a costumer some 500km away, who owed him a small amount; iirc it was around 500$. and he did not want to pay. He did not want to drive that way to collect his money. But one day he was out with his motorcycle friends. Not Bikers per say, but alot of big guys on bikes nonetheless. Their tour took them close by that guys place, so my friend suggested a small detour. He seemed
03:31 PM miss0r: more than willing to pay when 15 biker looking guys on motorcycles was in his driveway :]
03:32 PM miss0r: back to the mill
03:33 PM gloops: if any kind of insolvency proceedings are lodged, all their creditors will immediately pounce, first come first served
03:38 PM gloops: you can check the general status of the company by finding their accounts online, if theyre doing ok, they can pay you, you just got to decide the best way to make them respond, softly softly, friendly communications, or threatening letters and court orders
03:39 PM CaptHindsight: wow https://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/27/engine-shut-off-systems/
03:39 PM Roguish: playing nice is almost always the best. but sometimes, ya gotta get tough. I can
03:40 PM Roguish: I can't afford to finance anyone else's business.
03:40 PM gloops: Roguish, this is the thing, could be anything, they might have every intention of pay but temporary cash flow situation,
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: big co's expect you to
03:40 PM gloops: or they could be trying it on
03:41 PM gloops: some people get rich by not paying
03:41 PM Roguish: talk to them. see what's up
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: yes, look to the orange man in charge
03:42 PM gloops: lol!
03:44 PM gloops: Capt im the sort of person whos experiences with money are like going into a shop, picking something then putting the cash on the counter before taking it away, just the ordinary person
03:44 PM gloops: but these money people, they take things and then think - hmm, i dont have to pay for this, he cant make me
03:44 PM gloops: and they know where they stand legally
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: that is what business school is for
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: to make those contacts with that knowledge
03:49 PM gloops: absolutely, a BA in cynical cold blooded hard faced business skills goes a long way
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: I don't mean to start a heated discussion here but if a few people in that crowd today had RPG's things would have turned out differently
03:52 PM gloops: nowhere is safe these days
03:55 PM gloops: the UK is swarming with Taliban, Isis, Somalian Pirates, neo-nazis, theres an ongoing knife intifada, and a truck intifada...
03:56 PM Jymmm: Antartica?
03:57 PM miss0r: i'm clueless here... I can't seem to figure out why it does what it does. My only realy idea at this point is that there are too much wear in the ways
03:59 PM gloops: whats the reasoning behind that conclusion miss0r?
03:59 PM gloops: worn ways = loose slide
04:01 PM miss0r: gloops: when the machine boots up, it does a refrence search. It has a nasty tendancy of just hanging there. If I hit the table with a dead-blow hammer, it usualy makes it continue its refrence search.
04:01 PM miss0r: Its is locating on some glass linear scales. It is trying to hit a 0.001mm point. and it is obviously unabled to
04:01 PM miss0r: a small wack with the hammer, and it works
04:02 PM gloops: so something is sticking
04:02 PM miss0r: That makes me think; the controller knows it is VERY close to the mark, so it only asks the servos to move very little. but infact nothing moves at all, as it hangs, perhaps because it is too loose and sorta cranked out of square and locking
04:03 PM miss0r: something is absolutly sticky
04:04 PM sync: maybe your I gain is too low?
04:04 PM CaptHindsight: often Home mode is done very slowly vs let the servo go all out
04:04 PM sync: so the controller cannot overcome torque the screw requires
04:04 PM Jymmm: Tom Petty is dead. that is all.
04:05 PM CaptHindsight: was only 66
04:06 PM sync: who dat
04:06 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tom-petty-legendary-rocker-is-dead-at-66/
04:06 PM miss0r: sync: I gain?
04:06 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: Absolutly. it is doing it slow
04:06 PM sync: integral gain
04:07 PM gloops: whats turning the nut miss0r?
04:07 PM sync: let the control show you the following error
04:08 PM miss0r: gloops: Nothing is turning the nut. But the ballscrew is turned by a 47Nm DC servo
04:09 PM gloops: oh so the screw turns not the nut, so - what connects the servo to the screw?
04:09 PM miss0r: a timing pulley.
04:10 PM gloops: no pulley slip? belt ok etc
04:10 PM miss0r: theres no notisable backlash in that part of the setup. when turning the ballscrew by hand, I can do aprox. 5degress of turning without the table moving
04:11 PM miss0r: and I get a small 'bump' sound when the table starts to move
04:11 PM sync: well, then you have your answer
04:11 PM sync: the nut is shot
04:11 PM gloops: pfff, its the screw/nut
04:12 PM gloops: if there was no play in the nut and the table was jammed you wouldnt turn the screw by hand surely
04:13 PM miss0r: hmm... I think theres some truth to that.. *sigh*
04:13 PM gloops: wouldnt move it 5 degrees
04:13 PM sync: 5mm pitch?
04:14 PM sync: fits exactly with the measurement you made, if you did not calculate that
04:14 PM gloops: the only other possible cause - screw floating in its mounts
04:15 PM sync: that has been ruled out
04:15 PM miss0r: sync: That was a calculation. I have no way of 'stepping', as the machine also uses glass scales
04:15 PM gloops: ok
04:15 PM sync: well, then you must deduct the play by hitting the slide
04:16 PM rob_h: check the nuts done up properly to the table.. or end bearings if double contact bearings in support block which can cause float
04:17 PM miss0r: sync: I'll have to device a system for that then. When doing so the ballnut turns. if I do it with the machine on, the carrige auto corrects
04:17 PM miss0r: some sort of locking clamp
04:18 PM miss0r: rob_h: I've covered thoes two solutions. Thanks anyway
04:18 PM gloops: how big is this screw anyway?
04:18 PM miss0r: 25x5
04:18 PM sync: you can probably get a new one made to spec in C3 class for 1-1.5k€
04:18 PM sync: it's not too large to be extremely expensive
04:19 PM gloops: 1.5k is a slap in the face lol
04:19 PM rob_h: if can put your own ends on it would be a fraction off that even with a double nut
04:20 PM sync: is it gloops?
04:20 PM gloops: sync id say so yeah, but im only a poor brit, you yanks have more cash than sense
04:20 PM sync: afterall you don't have to do anything but to measure the original and send a drawing to rexroth/nsk/star/thk
04:20 PM miss0r: sync: for my small shop I would say so as well :)
04:21 PM miss0r: if I was packed with cash, I would not frantically trying to mend a mill from '86
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: '86, most of my machines are from the 70's and earlier
04:22 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: no offense intented :)
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: heh
04:22 PM gloops: Capt is that 19 or 18 70s? lol
04:22 PM sync: of course not but screw failure is to be expected
04:22 PM miss0r: Most of my machines are from that era as well. but that is ALOT in CNC years
04:22 PM sync: they are a wear item
04:22 PM miss0r: indeed
04:23 PM Deejay: gn8
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: my BP is from 1960
04:23 PM rob_h: some times can get away with a reball or go up a size (as can get fraction sizes)
04:23 PM gloops: so, all that needs to be done is - pull the screw and nut
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: needs a little tlc
04:23 PM rob_h: dont forget in ball screws its a harder steel ball than normal
04:23 PM miss0r: I think I have another clue that might add to the stickyness
04:24 PM sync: did you pull the table off and look for galling?
04:24 PM sync: it is common with those
04:24 PM CaptHindsight: Aunt Jemimah way lube?
04:24 PM miss0r: The square box is bolted to the frame. and the bolt holes are filled with something that looks'n feels like JB weld. They seem a bit higher than the way
04:25 PM CaptHindsight: odd combo
04:25 PM gloops: because the screws kept shaking out?
04:25 PM miss0r: sync: I did not remove the table - that is not realy an option at the moment. But I have inspected the ways, by moving the carrige out the way to either side. Everything looks nice, but for the JB weld stuff
04:25 PM CaptHindsight: post a pic if you get a chance
04:26 PM miss0r: gloops: I'm thinking its for a uniform surface for the wipers to run on, so dirt cant ride under the carrige in the holes
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: please
04:26 PM miss0r: 2 secs on the pic
04:26 PM sync: why is removing the table not an option? on a mh500 it is not that annoying iirc
04:27 PM miss0r: its heavy. and I don't have any lifting equipment I can fit in beside it
04:28 PM sync: if you removed the universal table it is ok
04:28 PM miss0r: picture of the ways: http://picpaste.com/IMG_20171002_225531-4BisEwtg.jpg
04:28 PM sync: like 70kg or something
04:29 PM miss0r: acording to the service manual here the uni. table on this is 211kg
04:29 PM miss0r: if its only 70kg i'll lift it out manually
04:31 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: picture^
04:31 PM gloops: so the filler needs buffing down
04:31 PM miss0r: sync: The bottom ways still has its original flaking. If the top part here was ever a scraped way, that is gone now
04:32 PM miss0r: I just ran a stone across them, doesn't seem like it made a difference
04:49 PM gloops: http://www.precisionballs.com/
04:49 PM gloops: Bal-tec™ stocks over 40,000 different sizes, grades and materials of balls.
04:50 PM MrTrick: BALLS.
04:50 PM cradek: I've bought balls from them
04:50 PM gloops: BALLS FOR ALL
04:51 PM cradek: I bought .0001" sized balls and they matched my gage blocks very well
04:51 PM miss0r: nice. I will try to just replace the balls at first.
04:52 PM miss0r: I've managed to refrence search the machine 20 times in a row now with no issues after I stoned thoes surfaces. But that does not change the fact that something else is also not completely new. I've also notised that the servo uses more power going one way than the other.
04:53 PM miss0r: Could that potentially be caused by a bad ballnut? or is there something else amiss?
04:53 PM miss0r: also: Where does one go about find some new rubber for the wipers?
04:56 PM gloops: bed is level?
04:57 PM miss0r: within reason
04:58 PM gloops: takes more force to go uphill, and less down
04:58 PM miss0r: around 0.05mm over 1000mmm in level
05:00 PM miss0r: give'n'take 0.01mm
05:01 PM gloops: its almost like something is trapped, bit of swarf or something
05:02 PM gloops: or maybe a flattened ball jamming one way but loose the other
05:02 PM gloops: is the juddering only one way?
05:02 PM miss0r: juddering? the bump sound? that is both ways
05:03 PM miss0r: also, I did not feel anything while rotating the ballnut/screw when it was loosened from the table
05:03 PM gloops: not under pressure though
05:04 PM miss0r: There is the off chance that some of the old wipers got caught in between the ways... They are wat gone.
05:04 PM miss0r: way*
05:05 PM gloops: well, looks like some stripping is in order miss0r
05:05 PM gloops: you using this mill on a daily basis?
05:06 PM miss0r: not at the moment. I'm in a dry patch
05:07 PM miss0r: so I guess the timing is 'alright'
05:07 PM gloops: might be an idea to find the price and delivery times for any parts you might need
05:08 PM miss0r: Yeah. I'll have to call DMG mori tomorrow.
05:08 PM miss0r: and ask them about it
05:10 PM miss0r: That'll do for tonight. I have to get up and go to work in 5 hours. Thanks for the help
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: https://shop.technexion.com/twp-1010-imx6.html $775 Waterproof 10.1 inch i.MX6 Panel PC
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: $975 for the 15.6" version
06:09 PM Raden__ is now known as raden
06:39 PM absynth is now known as dan2wik
06:57 PM hnu: What is the best way to import serial data from and Arduino into LinuxCNC (force gauge to controll axis)
07:00 PM CaptHindsight: USB -->> serial
07:00 PM CaptHindsight: not realtime
07:01 PM CaptHindsight: hnu: ^^
07:01 PM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/5378-arduino-hal-mapping
07:03 PM hnu: how do you impliment that?
07:03 PM hnu: I have tried with halcompile and it errors
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HardwareDesign
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't used it lately
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: https://emergent.unpythonic.net/01198594294
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: arduino.py
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: Arduino Sketch (halintf.pde) https://media.unpythonic.net/emergent-files/01198594294/halintf.pde
07:07 PM hnu: Thank you. Assuming I am able to use serialreceive.comp and load it, is the command in HAL serialreceive or is there other syntax I need to use?
07:20 PM hnu: sorry I misunderstood what you sent. I will try what you recommend