Jul 26 2017
12:19 AM cncnoob: Hey guys, I think I'm going to buy this 4th axis for my HF mini mill. Any recommendations on the chuck (3 jaw vs 4 jaw) or gear reduction (50:1 vs 100:1)?
12:21 AM cncnoob: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-4th-Axis-Router-A-Axis-100MM-Chuck-Gapless-Harmonic-Drive-Reducing-Gear-Box-/261858842965
12:30 AM CaptHindsight: cncnoob: look up the difference between a 3 vs 4 jaw chuck
12:30 AM CaptHindsight: what kinds of parts will you be holding?
12:31 AM CaptHindsight: 4 can do it all
12:31 AM CaptHindsight: 3 typically centers circular parts by just clamping
12:32 AM CaptHindsight: but doesn't center parts that are not round
12:32 AM CaptHindsight: 4 jaw requires some indication and adjusting
12:33 AM CaptHindsight: 100:1 lower speed more torque than the 50:1
12:37 AM CaptHindsight: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/chuck-get-3-jaw-4-jaw-etc-72847/
12:37 AM CaptHindsight: there's much more to it but it's too late for a book tonight
12:38 AM * jym hands CaptHindsight an etch-a-sketch instead
12:41 AM cncnoob: Thanks CaptHindsight, I gathered all of that :) Guess I was looking for thoughts on the non-obvious stuff
12:41 AM CaptHindsight: zzzzz
12:41 AM CaptHindsight: it's a low precision toy
12:42 AM CaptHindsight: a good learning experience
12:42 AM cncnoob: Low precision?
12:46 AM CaptHindsight: you might get lucky and get a better vs worse one
12:47 AM CaptHindsight: but it will probably need some tweaking to get it running square and centered
12:48 AM CaptHindsight: might even have lash
12:49 AM CaptHindsight: http://www.harmonicdrivegearhead.com/
12:49 AM CaptHindsight: even good ones do but far less
12:52 AM cncnoob: Thought that was the whole point of a harmonic drive, no backlash
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: mainly
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: for high reduction ina small space
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: http://www.harmonicdrivegearhead.com/products/harmonic-drive/csg-gh
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: zero lash ^^
12:54 AM cncnoob: If the unit operates per it specs, the worst case precision with the largest piece of material the chuck could accept would be 0.00123685" for the 50:1 and 0.000618425" for the 100:1. That seems pretty precise to me :)
12:55 AM cncnoob: Those number would be lower if I loaded a smaller piece of stock
12:55 AM CaptHindsight: I didn't see any specs for lash or repeatability
12:56 AM CaptHindsight: they count on your assumptions
12:57 AM CaptHindsight: we often joke in here about Chinese amps, mm and hp
12:57 AM cncnoob: I guess I was assuming 1.) all harmonic drives were free of backlash as near makes no difference and that 2.) "gapless" in the description referred to zero backlash
12:58 AM cncnoob: Yeah, I know they can be hit and miss
12:58 AM cncnoob: There are a ton of them for sale
12:58 AM cncnoob: I tried to find the one that had the best ratings and seemed the most legit
12:58 AM cncnoob: hard to weed them out though
12:58 AM CaptHindsight: yeah some are better than others
12:59 AM CaptHindsight: sometimes you don't find out until it arrives
12:59 AM evilren: china stuff, its typical to have the same product available in a range of qualities
12:59 AM evilren: factories gotta sell all those QA rejects to someone
01:00 AM CaptHindsight: I've had routers show up with rusty fasteners and 2-3mm of lash
01:00 AM CaptHindsight: and that was from a US disti who supposedly QCed it all
01:00 AM evilren: its like pliers, lowes asks a factory to make 1000 pliers, they make 3000 because 2/3 are QA reject, lowes puts their handles and branding on it
01:01 AM evilren: of the 2000 left, home depot buys 500 and puts HUSKY on it with dipped red rubber handles
01:03 AM evilren: the other 1500 go to harbor frieght, who use orange handle dip instead of red and dont bother branding them
01:03 AM evilren: if the product is common enough and directly from china, its essentially a commodity and price will have nothing to do with quality
01:03 AM evilren: just how many they have on the shelf and how desperate they are to move products that week
01:07 AM CaptHindsight: in my experience they would make them in the cheapest way possible hoping that you won't notice
01:07 AM evilren: s/cheapest/fastest
01:07 AM CaptHindsight: if you don't complain then they were good enough
01:07 AM CaptHindsight: their motto
01:07 AM evilren: they dont care if you notice, someone else will come along and they just wont care
01:08 AM evilren: actually their motto is pretty much 'get what you paid for'
01:08 AM CaptHindsight: for a commodity
01:08 AM evilren: theyre normal shops, theyre not doing anythign wrong for the most part
01:08 AM evilren: good things come from china
01:08 AM evilren: tons of very, very good things
01:08 AM evilren: they can make laptop computers
01:08 AM evilren: americans cant
01:08 AM CaptHindsight: they have lots of the same machine tools
01:09 AM CaptHindsight: cutting tools not so much
01:09 AM evilren: because they bought them from us
01:09 AM evilren: not like we need them for anything
01:09 AM evilren: cheaper at walmart is priority, not manufacturing jobs and associated skills
01:10 AM evilren: china isnt shit across the board
01:10 AM evilren: cheap china shit is shitty, because cheap shit
01:10 AM CaptHindsight: nah Walmart is bring the jobs back and making uhmerika great again
01:10 AM evilren: cheap shit from america is scarier, because prob had to cut even more corners to be competitive
01:10 AM evilren: government welfare subsidized paychecks
01:13 AM CaptHindsight: China subsidized most industries
01:13 AM evilren: thats their model, we subsidize industries
01:13 AM evilren: corn is grown at a loss
01:13 AM evilren: hell, the tax and regulation breaks we give industries are subsidies
01:13 AM evilren: at least china seems to be fair in a lot of its subsidy distribution, in america if your company cant afford a lobbyist, get fucked
01:13 AM CaptHindsight: they gave us money, factory and office space
01:13 AM evilren: try not to fail long enough to be bought by something bigger
01:14 AM evilren: as far as unsafe working conditions, we chopped up kids in machines due to negligent designs during our industrial revolution
01:16 AM evilren: also the worker suicide issues are kind of overblown, in a lot of cases the suicide rates arent huge, but the factory populations are
01:16 AM evilren: 2 suicides in a factory sounds like a lot, but not if its 40k employees
01:17 AM evilren: they want it more than we do and theyre willing to put the work and we're not
01:18 AM evilren: out workers bitch if they dont get 60k to work in a factory where suspended jigs and semi-automated power tools do most of the work
01:20 AM cncnoob: Thanks for the info and the economics lesson guys ;)
01:21 AM cncnoob: Good night!
01:21 AM evilren: night!
01:35 AM Deejay: moin
02:01 AM Deejay__ is now known as Deejay
02:19 AM IchGucksLive: morning from Germany
02:23 AM IchGucksLive: till later
05:12 AM XXCoder: omg I'm alive
05:32 AM malcom2073_: Is that an oddity?
05:32 AM XXCoder: yeah been dead for decades
05:32 AM XXCoder: being alive is such an annoyance, I need food for one
05:45 AM jthornton: morning
05:46 AM XXCoder: whats up
05:46 AM jthornton: just waking up
05:46 AM Deejay: hey
05:47 AM jthornton: motors showed up for the S500 yesterday
09:51 AM frank___: guys, i couldnt find this anywhere, why when i press machine enable the spindle turns moves slowly? isnt it supposed to be activated with m3?
09:52 AM pcw_home: This can happen if you use and older version of pncconf to make your hal/ini files
09:52 AM pcw_home: (its uses the wrong pin to drive for spindle enable)
09:54 AM frank___: today i've updated and made a new config with version 22.214.171.124 of pncconf, i had 2.7 before. will try if that fixed the problem, i didnt thought that would change much. thanks
09:55 AM pcw_home: I would just fix it in the hal file rather than run pncconf again
09:56 AM frank___: i had to do it anyway, i deleted a hal file unintentionally lol
09:56 AM frank___: copy paste copy paste, hal file now is empty O_O learned to do backup
09:56 AM pcw_home: Oops...
09:56 AM pcw_home: its a fairly obvious mistake (the hardware spindle enable pin is wired to machine-on rather than spindle-on)
09:56 AM frank___: hehe
09:57 AM frank___: but im fairly too dumb, heheh
09:57 AM frank___: im still grasping the hal and ini files sense of operation
09:58 AM frank___: im going to try spindleee
09:58 AM frank___: what are your experiences with wi fi connection inside an electric enclosure?
09:58 AM frank___: sick of the long cable
09:59 AM pcw_home: Yeah hal files make sense to electrical engineer types but can be confusing at first if you are not used to nets and netlists
09:59 AM pcw_home: I have not tried WIFI that way
10:00 AM frank___: thankfully the linuxcnc community is very helpfull. i would love to give some back someday
10:00 AM frank___: actually, im going on a trip to ny in about 2 months, im already thinking of buying another set of mesa heheh
10:01 AM frank___: is there something already done for doing plasma on thin sheet? last time i heard the problem was the velocity of the thc on thin sheet metal
10:08 AM pcw_home: I think there is work being done to add a PID based THC as a hal component in
10:08 AM pcw_home: conjunction with D. Garretts external offset feature but I dont know where it stands
10:08 AM pcw_home: bbl
10:25 AM frank___: spindle works great :D
10:25 AM frank___: ok, will keep cheking on that feature pcw, thanks
10:35 AM FinboySlick: frank_: The most obvious thing is that if your enclosure is metal, you'll need to poke a hole for an antenna.
10:38 AM FinboySlick: I'd stay clear of wifi (or wireless in general) for anything important. Too many things can cause it to fail that you can't verify easily.
11:19 AM JesusAlos: Hi!
11:19 AM JesusAlos: I'm looking for the way to increase the buffer of red path in axis
11:20 AM JesusAlos: I mean, don't auto clean the path where the tool has cut
12:03 PM JT-Shopp: hmm I just came home with a couple of servers, one rack mount and one in a tower case...
12:07 PM cradek: JesusAlos: I don't think that's configurable; you will have to change the source and rebuild
12:11 PM cradek: it would be nice if it was a configuration option. I would happily review a pull request adding that feature.
12:13 PM phipli: evening
12:30 PM archivist: its evening!... just came in from genny fixing
12:31 PM archivist: phipli, local place makes new bespoke radiator hoses in Swad
12:32 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:36 PM IchGucksLive: Frank_10: what thickness of sheet are you dealing with
12:37 PM JT-Shopp: evening phipli
12:39 PM phipli: evening JT-Shopp
12:39 PM phipli: archivist: rubber? Silicone?
12:40 PM IchGucksLive: Q: is there a vismach sim mashine
12:40 PM IchGucksLive: in the mashine chooser
12:40 PM phipli: How is the Perkins coming along?
12:40 PM archivist: phipli, silicone fancy colours if you want
12:40 PM JT-Shopp is now known as JT-Shop
12:41 PM CaptHindsight: archivist: how do they form the bends?
12:41 PM archivist: the bottom hose leaked when I did the first test run with the new displays it generates http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2017/2017_07_23_Morrison/IMG_2573.JPG
12:41 PM phipli: fancy panel :)
12:41 PM archivist: CaptHindsight, they use formers and hand wind the material around it
12:42 PM CaptHindsight: silicone sets vs reflows like a plastic
12:42 PM archivist: fan belt fell off too, dynamo seemed to not be working so rebuilt with new bearing and replaced broken brush spring
12:42 PM CaptHindsight: I wonder if it's a blend of silicone and some thermoplastic
12:43 PM archivist: I saw no evidence of heat
12:43 PM archivist: they start with some sheet stock, cut with scissors
12:44 PM CaptHindsight: did you notice how rigid the stock is?
12:45 PM CaptHindsight: do they weld it?
12:45 PM archivist: they wind around steel bar formers
12:45 PM phipli: I guess it sets after being formed
12:45 PM archivist: more similar to fibreglass build up except flexible
12:46 PM CaptHindsight: interesting composite
12:46 PM phipli: like pre-preg carbon fibre
12:46 PM archivist: when cut you can see the white fibers in the black wall
12:47 PM archivist: this bunch http://www.derbyperformancehose.co.uk/
12:51 PM CaptHindsight: I was just looking at some lost mandrel applications
12:52 PM CaptHindsight: print the mandrel, coat, metallize, rinse out mandrel
12:52 PM archivist: nothing like that there, far more basic
12:54 PM CaptHindsight: i guess they can't too fancy with the bends or the mandrel can't be removed
12:55 PM archivist: probably screw together to build up the mandrel, could not get that close to see
12:55 PM archivist: dunno how they deal with an unequal T
01:45 PM JesusAlos: cradek: Thank you
01:46 PM JesusAlos: IchGucksLive: Hi
01:46 PM JesusAlos: Today I'm in Bilbao
01:47 PM JesusAlos: Yesterday was the Santiago holiday
01:52 PM IchGucksLive: im off Gn8
03:33 PM skullworks: I think I am going to need a tapered gib made. I seem to have lost the original.
03:33 PM pink_vampire: on what machine?
03:33 PM skullworks: IH 12Z
03:34 PM pink_vampire: it is a manual machine?
03:34 PM skullworks: think of a Rong Fu geared head mill on steroids.
03:35 PM skullworks: yes manual
03:35 PM pink_vampire: it is look similar to the grizzly
03:36 PM pink_vampire: so maybe you can order a new one easy.
03:36 PM skullworks: http://charteroakautomation.com/our-products/manual-bed-mill/
03:38 PM skullworks: This is the only place importing these machines in North America - MTW did until they shut down 2 years ago.
03:40 PM skullworks: But I bought mine in like 2006 just after Aaron sold Industrial Hobbies to Gene & Tommy.
03:40 PM pink_vampire: try to call them
03:41 PM skullworks: That didn't work too well - they just hung up.
03:42 PM pink_vampire: what axis is that?
03:42 PM skullworks: the X table gib
03:43 PM skullworks: I took themachine all aprt to move it - I now have all the parts mostly back together, its the only part missing.
03:44 PM pink_vampire: i call them right now
03:44 PM pink_vampire: Phone: (203) 562-0699
03:45 PM skullworks: That is the number I called earlier today.
03:46 PM pink_vampire: they asked to send them an email, with the model of the ma chine, the the replacement part you need, and he will send you a price
03:46 PM pink_vampire: firstname.lastname@example.org
03:46 PM pink_vampire: this is the email
03:48 PM pink_vampire: skullworks: ^
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: skullworks: approx what dimension gib?
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: shouldn't be too big a deal
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: small mill
03:49 PM pink_vampire: CaptHindsight: it is a small machine, like the X3
03:50 PM CaptHindsight: i think they should have used Right-Fu for their western name
03:50 PM * skullworks will need to run out to the shop to get real numbers.
03:50 PM skullworks: http://charteroakautomation.com/our-products/manual-bed-mill/
03:50 PM skullworks: no - I have an X3... I can almost fit the X3 under the head of this baby.
03:51 PM skullworks: like 30X axis 12Y and 20 Z
03:52 PM skullworks: Mine was from the 3rd lot, S/N 1077 IIRC.
03:53 PM skullworks: When GRBL-Mega finally supports 4th axis the X3 will be used for 4th axis engraving.
03:54 PM pink_vampire: is the grbl is real time???
03:55 PM skullworks: new version is - in the arduino - the position update is maybe 1/100 sec to the display
03:56 PM skullworks: but single block, feed rate override other near real time events are handled instantly now.
03:56 PM pink_vampire: how is that vs linux cnc?
03:57 PM skullworks: huge improvements starting in V0.9 and v1.1
03:58 PM skullworks: It was all based on LCNC, uses the LCNC interp and a limited command set.
03:59 PM skullworks: but - I would use it for engraving because there is no cutter radius comp needed (radius comp is not surrported in GRBL)
04:01 PM pink_vampire: skullworks: so there is no computer if you using the grbl? just the arduino mega?
04:01 PM skullworks: Lets put it this way - I use LCNC on my machines I can't lift, If I can grab a friend and pick up a machine and put it in my trunk... maybe not.
04:03 PM skullworks: You use a PC to stream the gcode - like running DNC and the PC has a gui which reports position, speed etc.
04:04 PM skullworks: The PC is not true real time - real time is in the Arduino - but the Arduino reports back continously
04:05 PM skullworks: Since the traj planner and real time run in the ARM processor everything works perfect.
04:05 PM pink_vampire: so it is cheaper version of the mesa cards?
04:07 PM skullworks: Its dirt cheap - but its not a replacement for MESA because mesa supports full LCNC - GRBL is a limited CNC language - no cutter comp, no tool change, no canned cycles (drilling).
04:07 PM skullworks: for engraver or a router its perfect.
04:10 PM skullworks: Many people do use it on home hobby mills - and if its good enough for them, OK - but I am used to big mega-buck industrial equipment, LCNC can work at that level - GRBL can't. But again for engraving it does everything needed and frees up the expensive equipment for better paying work.
04:12 PM pink_vampire: one day maybe i will move to mesa
04:12 PM JT-Shop: I'm ready when you are
04:13 PM skullworks: My other issue with GRBL for Aurduino - is that based on the NANO - there are only enough I/O ( with the full limit switch config) for 3 axis - the MEGA port should be able to incorporate the additional I/O needed for 4th axis support. But that is still in the vapor ware state.
04:14 PM pink_vampire: JT-Shop: i just don't now hot to make my current setup with them,
04:15 PM skullworks: JT - If I could design up a print for my missing Gib is that something you might be willing to take on? say maybe A360 brass?
04:17 PM JT-Shop: skullworks: depends on the size (lenght)
04:18 PM skullworks: think it is less than 16"
04:18 PM skullworks: by maybe 2"
04:19 PM skullworks: saddle is smaller than a BP type
04:19 PM JT-Shop: the X on my VMC has 18" travel
04:20 PM JT-Shop: draw it up
04:20 PM skullworks: That should be plenty.
04:21 PM * skullworks will be AFKB
04:22 PM pink_vampire: XXCoder:
04:22 PM XXCoder: hey pink_vampire
04:23 PM pink_vampire: how are you doing
04:24 PM XXCoder: doing ok though need to go work soonish
04:26 PM pink_vampire: 2nd shift?
04:26 PM XXCoder: yep
04:27 PM XXCoder: 3:15 pm to 1:45 am
04:28 PM pink_vampire: not sounds like fun
04:28 PM Deejay: gn8
04:32 PM XXCoder: its boring but then its a job. lol. laters
04:51 PM LeelooMinai_: If someone is living in LA, I guess that may be insteresting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffk_AqUN_Rc
04:52 PM skullworks: Just for giggles I'm going to try something crazy - I think I will try to do a 3D print of the basic gib to check fit - and it might be good enough to allow me to make the real gib.
04:53 PM skullworks: I will have to find my lock powder (30% fine powdered graphite and 70% powdered teflon micro-beads.)
04:54 PM LeelooMinai_: Looks pretty cool and probably the only way to solve traffic problems. The only part I would wory in LA is maybe earthquakes I guess.
04:54 PM LeelooMinai_ is now known as LeelooMinai
05:00 PM * skullworks must go stuff money in the bank.
05:04 PM andypugh: I have a theory that Musk is actually from the future :-)
05:07 PM BeachBumPete: Personally I applaud him for having the guts to put his money into things that others would find risky. He has pushed technologies and ideas that will define the future and he does it employing a lot of people in good paying jobs.Visionary if nothing else..
05:08 PM pink_vampire: andypugh: correct
05:17 PM JT-Shop: after two hours of searching I think I found the document I need to fill out to change the registered agent for our partnership to me (partner passed away)...
05:31 PM JT-Shop: hmm found the rating on this mean well power supply
05:42 PM andypugh: Is it mean, or does it mean well? or is it merely close to the mean?
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: is anyone getting captchas on site due to navigating through them too quickly?
05:43 PM CaptHindsight: site/website
05:43 PM andypugh: Which website?
05:43 PM CaptHindsight: meant plural but it just happen at mouser.com
05:43 PM BeachBumPete: I hope that it is just Mean Well because I am putting two of them into the CNC lathe project
05:44 PM JT-Shop: I think it is like jumbo shrimp a big small...
05:44 PM andypugh: I was just commenting that “mean” means so many things. (there is another meaning!)
05:45 PM BeachBumPete: I love jumbo shrimp so if its like that we're good to go
05:45 PM Jymmm: andypugh: RMS ?
05:46 PM andypugh: Well, RMS just means the same as mean (average)
05:46 PM CaptHindsight: root mean square
05:46 PM Jymmm: andypugh: Are you sure you mean that and not just being mean about it?
05:47 PM Jymmm: andypugh: ...know what I mean?
05:47 PM CaptHindsight: slightly above average
05:47 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, my neighbour has a monstrous tree that overhangs over 1/3 of my backyard and blocks probably half the sun energy from the solar panels... Any idea if I can cut the branches, etc. on the fendce plane with a powerful laser? :p
05:47 PM andypugh: No, though I am maybe mean of mien I rarely mean to be mean.
05:47 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: YEs, it's called a chainsaw
05:47 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: where yah bean?
05:48 PM andypugh: LeelooMinai: There are well established laws, but they vary a lot from place to place.
05:48 PM LeelooMinai: Jymmm: Right, sure, if you can fly maybe - thoe branches are like up to 30m above the ground...
05:48 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, maybe 20 meters, don't really know, but too high for any ladder.
05:48 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Trying to avoid the Mountian lion. glad the neighor has small dogs, he's been sniffering over there at night lately.
05:49 PM andypugh: Maybe the tree itself is a source of solar power (in the form of firewood)
05:49 PM LeelooMinai: Well, the bugger said he will cut the tree branches, but it was 5 years ago...
05:50 PM LeelooMinai: I guess laser would have a drawback of a potential for a tree to catch fire and burn:)
05:50 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: In California you can legally cut anything that encroches on your property without prior notice.
05:50 PM andypugh: I find that my whole view of the world has changed in a small way now that I have realised that trees (and all plants) are made from solidified air. In fact, from solidified CO2. Maybe I should point that out to Trump.
05:50 PM LeelooMinai: Jymmm: Meh, first I read "in Canada", but it's California...
05:51 PM Jymmm: lol
05:51 PM malcom2073_: Be careful though, being california, your neighbors may identify as trees, and thus you may be liable for murder if you dismember one of their "family" members.
05:51 PM LeelooMinai: andypugh: "Yes, we have trees, bueatigul trees, the best trees"
05:52 PM Jymmm: malcom2073_: Justified homocide
05:52 PM LeelooMinai: I don't even think Trump knows what CO2 is to be honest...
05:52 PM andypugh: You used to have the biggest trees. Until you cut them down to prove that you could.
05:53 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: that would imply some sort of intelligence and ability to process information
05:53 PM Jymmm: andypugh: the tree that you used to be able to drive thru died
05:53 PM LeelooMinai: But I am sure he can make some incoherent BS about USA and trees and CO2 in no time at all:)
05:53 PM CaptHindsight: I didn't even know it was sick
05:53 PM Jymmm: https://www.livescience.com/57427-calaveras-drive-through-tree-died.html
05:54 PM andypugh: Jymmm: In any way related to having a socking great hole cut through it?
05:54 PM Jymmm: https://cbsdetroit.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/istock-495732381.jpg?w=1500
05:55 PM LeelooMinai: O, I have a great idea. I will make a tree cutting attachement for some drone and will let my small nephew to play a game in real life called "Leaves be Gone".
05:56 PM LeelooMinai: I will pay him 1 cent per one leaf. For each dron crash -100 cents penalty.
05:56 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: how old?
05:56 PM LeelooMinai: 11 or so:)
05:56 PM LeelooMinai: Just the right age.
05:56 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: 11yo and a fun way to make money? Your fucked.
05:57 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I could even make level 2 - tiny hacksaw attachment for branch cutting and bonus cents - per pund of wood fallen to the ground.
05:58 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: and not that you'll owe high crap laods of moeny, but because he'll de-leaf on every three and bush for 100 miles aorund and Yyoull have to pay the fines =)
05:59 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I wake up in the morning and local news station talks about the sudden disappearence of leaves in the city.
05:59 PM Jymmm: s/city/county|state|country/
06:00 PM andypugh: Ash die-back is all your fault!
06:00 PM LeelooMinai: And "Sorry aunty, I told about this new real life game all my friends in this Minecraft forum..."
06:01 PM andypugh: Hmm, it looks like you don’t have that in the US, lets hope you continue not to have it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymenoscyphus_fraxineus
06:02 PM Jymmm: andypugh: We have something like it for oaks/fur, etc
06:02 PM LeelooMinai: andypugh: I am sure there are others problems.
06:02 PM LeelooMinai: other*
06:05 PM andypugh: We also have a nasty elm disease that you have: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_elm_disease
06:05 PM andypugh: Thankfully, so far, we still have our Oaks.
06:08 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: did it die cuz they cut a hole in it?
06:09 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: winter strom
06:09 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: no ned to worry we got a guy in charge now that gonna fix everything
06:09 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: I drove thru it years ago
06:09 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: are they going to cut it down or let it do whatever on its own?
06:10 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: oh it fell down
06:10 PM CaptHindsight: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/tunnel-tree-pioneer-cabin-fallen-california/
06:10 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: andypugh http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Drive-Thru-Sequoia_sham-1.jpg
06:11 PM CaptHindsight: that damned obama
06:13 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: anything else bad happen lately? :)
06:15 PM tiwake: yasnak: poke
06:16 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: just a prototype for something I'm working on... http://i.imgur.com/0alGWnP.jpg
06:16 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Well, over here we have had the parents of a broken baby raise 1.3 million for treatment by a US doctor who said he could fix hime, then came over and changed his mind.
06:17 PM BeachBumPete: a broken baby???
06:18 PM CaptHindsight: too late, too little muscle left
06:18 PM andypugh: He has rather less mitochondria in his brain than it takes to sustain life.
06:18 PM Jymmm: andypugh: WTF?! Dick
06:18 PM * JT-Shop ponders the mode switch selections in vector
06:18 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: what is it?
06:19 PM andypugh: Actually vaguely relevant in a larger sense to your current healthcare un-reform bill.
06:19 PM Jymmm: andypugh: he changed his mind, or the progrnoses?
06:19 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: luminary
06:19 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: it's been all over the news here as well
06:20 PM andypugh: Our NHS (socialised medicine) says “nothing useful can be done” whereas US-style commercial medicine says “we can make the baby 10% better for $1 million” These statements are both true.
06:20 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: are you allowed to trap mountain lions there?
06:21 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Not sure, probably,
06:22 PM BeachBumPete: Nothing useful can be done since they waited and chose to fight the wishes of the family for the last year or so apparently
06:22 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/sd6ai5CMSyw?t=29s
06:23 PM CaptHindsight: Jymmm: ^ says it's not legal
06:23 PM CaptHindsight: good thing we don't have death panels here :)
06:24 PM BeachBumPete: no we just have a situation where if you get really and truly sick you are gonna die anyways because you cannot afford the treatments...
06:24 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Well, we could shoot it, but I'd rather trap it instead if there was a choice.
06:29 PM CaptHindsight: socialized medicine will never work here, because
06:36 PM CaptHindsight: what was the treatment going to be for his mitochondrial DNA depletion?
06:37 PM CaptHindsight: DNA is easy enough to make but introducing into cells it is still in its infancy
06:41 PM CaptHindsight: you can print oligos using an inkjet printer and link them into genes for cheap and in a couple days
06:42 PM CaptHindsight: when is the FDA ever going to allow that to happen for treatment anytime soon?
06:43 PM CaptHindsight: it's been done this way for the past 10+ years
06:48 PM andypugh: If the parents had given up on the first one they could have had one that was fun to be with by now. What value do you place on the quality of life of any other children they might have when there is a baby with no (working) brain in the family?
06:48 PM BeachBumPete: WOW
06:49 PM andypugh: I am clearly a heartless beast.
06:49 PM BeachBumPete: do you actually try to be heartless?
06:49 PM BeachBumPete: do you have any kids?
06:49 PM andypugh: Guess :-)
06:50 PM BeachBumPete: we're not talking about a CNC lathe project here man...
06:50 PM andypugh: Yes, I know.
06:50 PM BeachBumPete: do ya
06:51 PM andypugh: But that doesn’t mean that there is no place in the discussion for a purely utilitarian analysis.
06:52 PM BeachBumPete: the situation however tragic leaves most sane people with one sad realization, NOBODY wants any government to be able to dictate what care and from whom they get for their sick loved ones...
06:52 PM CaptHindsight: I know plenty of people that have kids basically as servants
06:53 PM CaptHindsight: or insurance company
06:53 PM andypugh: I do think that the net total happiness over the next 30 years of all the involved parties is likely to be higher if medical intervention in the life of Charlie Gard stops.
06:53 PM BeachBumPete: gee thats clever
06:54 PM CaptHindsight: government or insurance company, take your pick
06:54 PM andypugh: BeachBumPete: No government has said anything in this case.
06:54 PM CaptHindsight: it's still very common in developing nations to have kids so that there someone to take care of you when you are older
06:55 PM BeachBumPete: how ya figure?
06:55 PM andypugh: The medical staff of one of the most respected childrens hospitals in the world has said that nothing can usefully be done.
06:55 PM BeachBumPete: yes we know that
06:55 PM BeachBumPete: so?
06:55 PM CaptHindsight: he needs gene repair
06:56 PM CaptHindsight: and now it's too late even if we had a good vector for swapping it out
06:56 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Can we do gene repair?
06:56 PM CaptHindsight: shit yeah
06:57 PM BeachBumPete: its a vicious cycle really. High tech procedures and medicines create miraculous cures and fixes for people yet the costs of those advances are put on the very people that need them often times making it impossible or dare I say it not cost effective to use it.
06:57 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.neb.com/tools-and-resources/feature-articles/crispr-cas9-and-targeted-genome-editing-a-new-era-in-molecular-biology
06:59 PM CaptHindsight: it's actually pretty cheap to do
06:59 PM BeachBumPete: let government get involved...ANY government and it gets substantially worse in almost all regards..
07:00 PM CaptHindsight: yeah privatization works out really well
07:00 PM BeachBumPete: like many things I think the people that are creating the tech and those in the KNOW may think it is actually pretty cheap to do..., then the tech gets in the hands of the money grubbers and the govt hacks and it goes downhill from there
07:00 PM CaptHindsight: the problem is corruption and greed
07:01 PM CaptHindsight: I'd like to find a gene and vector to cure that
07:02 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.the-odin.com/diy-crispr-kit/
07:02 PM BeachBumPete: personally I like the Star Trek version where healthcare is driven by people who are in it to further the cures and practices and not profit from it while using it to help humanity or ET's whenever possible but unfortunately that is fantasy....
07:03 PM malcom2073_: Greed is a beautiful and terrible thing
07:03 PM BeachBumPete: indeed it is
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.origene.com/CRISPR-CAS9/
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: like pooping, you're born to do it
07:04 PM BeachBumPete: perhaps at some point we will be able to print up necessary body parts and have the ability to easily and inexpensively remove and replace parts but that is a rather long ways off unfortunatly
07:04 PM malcom2073_: CaptHindsight: We're looking at getting that for my kid in a few years
07:04 PM malcom2073_: She's interested in biology and stuff
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC507883/
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: POSaM: a fast, flexible, open-source, inkjet oligonucleotide synthesizer and microarrayer
07:06 PM CaptHindsight: uses older enzyme chems though in the paper
07:06 PM andypugh: BeachBumPete: I think you have a distorted and wrong view of how our socialised medicine works. If the medical staff as GOSH thought that there was a hope of giving that kid any sort of life, they would have done so regardless of cost. They will spend _way_ more than a US medical insurance policy in cases where the treatment is expected to actually work. But in this case even the experimental treatment was only goin
07:06 PM andypugh: result in a 10% improvement. 10% from where he is is where?
07:07 PM CaptHindsight: sorry hosphoramidite, enzymatic would be the updated version
07:07 PM BeachBumPete: Oh of course my view is distored and wrong... please.
07:08 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: When we all get eaten by grey goo created by your kid, we know who to blame.
07:08 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, will be all my fault
07:09 PM malcom2073_: He didn't say it was your fault, he said we'd blame you. :P
07:09 PM BeachBumPete: I guess that would go for you as well with your distorted and wrong views of my own country that you frequently state here... so we're even I guess.
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: not it really will all be my fault :)
07:10 PM andypugh: BeachBumPete: “personally I like the Star Trek version where healthcare is driven by people who are in it to further the cures and practices and not profit from it while using it to help humanity” Err, well, that’s actually like we hope our NHS works. The doctors all get paid regardless of results and are left to do their very best. And because they get paid regardless, sometimes they admit that there is nothi
07:10 PM andypugh: they can usefullly do.
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: malcom2073_: https://www.wired.com/story/inside-the-glowing-plant-startup-that-just-gave-up-its-quest/
07:12 PM malcom2073_: Heh
07:12 PM malcom2073_: Ah kickstarter
07:14 PM BeachBumPete: ehhhh no actually...
07:15 PM BeachBumPete: you see in Star Trek they don't get paid at all... They are doing it because they WANT to do it... which is unfortunately a fantasy in our world.
07:15 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: whats really changed here is that facts don't seem to matter anymore, there are "alternate facts" or if you sound different you just get tuned out since you're not on their team/club/agenda
07:15 PM andypugh: I like Kickstarter. I invest quite often. But always amounts that I am 100% prepared to lose. Kickstarter do need to more carefully explain that there is not, and should not, be a guarantee of delivery.
07:15 PM CaptHindsight: popular opinions are the new facts
07:16 PM malcom2073_: I keep wanting to find a widget to kickstarter, use the funds to outfit a shop, deliver, and then walk away with an outfitted shop. These ideas of building a business off kickstarter just seem like a bad idea
07:17 PM andypugh: BeachBumPete: Well, in a world where doctors need to eat, I think I prefer our system at the moment. (and not your system)
07:17 PM BeachBumPete: no surprise there
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: malcom2073_: some of the failed kickstarters could have been delivered by better people
07:18 PM malcom2073_: I don't doubt it, management plays a big part
07:18 PM malcom2073_: especially when more than one person is involved
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: i was contacted by a few to help make their product
07:18 PM andypugh: That US doctor in the Charlie Gard case came out looking pretty bad. He didn’t visit until last week and never read the case notes.
07:19 PM CaptHindsight: one recently was a project that got its funding pulled after posting a fake video
07:19 PM BeachBumPete: as far as failed kickstarters go I think MOST people generally underestimate how much work it takes to design, create, manufacture, distribute, and sell any product...
07:19 PM BeachBumPete: really???
07:19 PM CaptHindsight: so some are scammers with no real intention of following through
07:20 PM malcom2073_: BeachBumPete: It's really funny how often I see that in the software world.
07:20 PM BeachBumPete: you mean the doctor who is the worlds utmost authority on the subject that doctor?
07:20 PM malcom2073_: "That looks easy!" (three months later) "Damn that's hard"
07:20 PM andypugh: The Lily camera is an interesting Kickstarter story. It was a great idea. I am fairly sure they wanted to actually make it, it was a great product, but established manufacturers beat them to market, as they were inexperienced.
07:20 PM BeachBumPete: its really funnny how often I see that in ANY world
07:22 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, I've seen a few projects where i considered beating them to market
07:23 PM CaptHindsight: I just want to earn bucks and lose weight while sleep....
07:23 PM CaptHindsight: is that really too much to ask for?
07:25 PM BeachBumPete: thats easy all you have to do is get into a business model that is not driven by the number of hours you put in per week and is active around the clock. Seems easy right...
07:26 PM andypugh: BeachBumPete: Paragraphs 7 and 8 here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40712913
07:26 PM BeachBumPete: you don't actually expect me to read something from the BBC do ya?
07:26 PM BeachBumPete: I mean they even killed Top Gear...
07:27 PM malcom2073_: Technically top gear killed itself
07:27 PM BeachBumPete: how ya figure?
07:27 PM CaptHindsight: the Grand Tour lives on
07:27 PM malcom2073_: The dude punched out a producer
07:27 PM BeachBumPete: so?
07:27 PM BeachBumPete: maybe he was a dickhead?
07:27 PM malcom2073_: If you punched out your boss, would you be fired?
07:27 PM malcom2073_: Around here, you'd also be arrested
07:27 PM BeachBumPete: that depends on the situation
07:28 PM BeachBumPete: no around here they BOTH would be arrested
07:28 PM malcom2073_: Heh
07:28 PM CaptHindsight: you're supposed to find a police officer to shoot them
07:29 PM CaptHindsight: or similar
07:29 PM BeachBumPete: I honestly do not understand why ANYONE would want to become a police officer
07:30 PM CaptHindsight: ask any bully
07:30 PM BeachBumPete: oh because they are all bullies right...come on man
07:30 PM CaptHindsight: all vs some
07:30 PM malcom2073_: All people on the internet are trolls
07:31 PM CaptHindsight: see
07:31 PM BeachBumPete: oh sure
07:31 PM andypugh: I am a troll.
07:31 PM BeachBumPete: I see alright
07:31 PM malcom2073_: The squeaky wheel gets noticed.
07:31 PM malcom2073_: andypugh: I mean figurativly, not literally :P
07:31 PM andypugh: I actually live under a bridge and eat goats.
07:31 PM BeachBumPete: sounds like you eat children too
07:31 PM CaptHindsight: have you met andy?
07:31 PM CaptHindsight: I ahve
07:32 PM andypugh: My life went very wrong when I became vegetarian. Carrots very rarely cross my bridge.
07:32 PM BeachBumPete: oh you are vegan too
07:32 PM BeachBumPete: ya know I used to have so much respect for you when all I knew about you was your prowess with linuxCNC LOL
07:33 PM andypugh: No, vegan is a step too far. Vegan means no pizza.
07:33 PM andypugh: <shudder>
07:33 PM BeachBumPete: IKR what the hell was I thinking...
07:38 PM CaptHindsight: BeachBumPete: how are your spindle bearings holding up?
07:38 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't had a complete failure or down time yet to swap mine
07:39 PM CaptHindsight: they leak a few oz of oil whenever I shut down
07:40 PM CaptHindsight: and now I have to encourage the holders to release from the spindle with a pry bar when hot
07:43 PM BeachBumPete: WOW that suchs
07:43 PM BeachBumPete: sucks
07:43 PM BeachBumPete: actually I ran the machine for a couple hours last night
07:44 PM BeachBumPete: it did not even make the noise but for a second or two when I first turned it on and started the warmup
07:44 PM BeachBumPete: I am sure they STILL need to be replaced soon at some point
07:44 PM CaptHindsight: i occasionally hear a crunch when plunging
07:45 PM BeachBumPete: but even at 5500RPM with that 1/8 inch cutter last night for almost two hours it sounded fine and the cuts looked good
07:45 PM CaptHindsight: cuts still look good
07:45 PM BeachBumPete: I am right now working on the CNC lathe project
07:45 PM BeachBumPete: trying to decide where and how to mount my ASRock board in that massive electronics cabinet
07:45 PM CaptHindsight: I'm building one as well with all linear servos
07:46 PM BeachBumPete: this is AC servo but not linears
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: air bearing spindle
07:46 PM BeachBumPete: wow
07:46 PM BeachBumPete: how big?
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: ~12" x 20"
07:46 PM BeachBumPete: I got one problem tho
07:47 PM BeachBumPete: I went to call MAG/Robert Varney about the spindle bearings
07:47 PM BeachBumPete: and I noticed that the damn serial number plate/weight plate that was on the left side of the enclosure is missing
07:47 PM CaptHindsight: fall off during the move?
07:47 PM BeachBumPete: apparenlty the tarpaulin from the transport down from TN must have beat against it
07:47 PM CaptHindsight: ah
07:47 PM BeachBumPete: and it fell off somewhere between here and there
07:48 PM BeachBumPete: so I have no way that I am aware of to determine the actual serial number of the machine and get the correct bearing information
07:48 PM BeachBumPete: I am going to try to call Rob Varney and see if he has any ideas since he is the guru
07:48 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Does your drawbar actually push the tool out when operated?
07:49 PM CaptHindsight: I take pics of all mine
07:49 PM andypugh: If not, then perhaps it could.
07:49 PM BeachBumPete: are you going to machine your air bearing spindle or buy it?
07:49 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: it opens and gravity does the rest, but currently it's just shy of opening when hot
07:49 PM andypugh: Mine sort-of does if the air pressure is high enough. That’s on the list of “should have designed that in”
07:50 PM CaptHindsight: it's hydraulic
07:50 PM andypugh: Ah, mine release but don’t drop when hot
07:50 PM BeachBumPete: aw that sucks
07:50 PM CaptHindsight: sometimes even with persuasion they stick until cooler
07:50 PM andypugh: Some blow
07:51 PM CaptHindsight: you found me that 20k prm spindle on fleabay
07:51 PM andypugh: As in, some blow air into the taper to clean and help release
07:51 PM CaptHindsight: rpm even
07:51 PM BeachBumPete: mine does that
07:51 PM CaptHindsight: I'm going to upgrade this vs just repair
07:52 PM andypugh: Had fun at the weekend. I went to Stuttgart for a LinuxCNC meetup.
07:52 PM CaptHindsight: how did that go?
07:52 PM andypugh: It was great. Your spindle reminded me
07:53 PM CaptHindsight: is there a matsuura there?
07:53 PM CaptHindsight: someone associated was shopping for them 2-3 years ago
07:54 PM andypugh: There were many (50+) STMBL drives there, they really are well worth a look. 2kw open-spirce servo drives that use smart-serial to make HAL pins like “hm2_stmbl.0045.position-cmd”
07:54 PM CaptHindsight: maybe it was for work vs the space
07:55 PM CaptHindsight: I just inherited a bunch of motors, drives, scales etc
07:55 PM BeachBumPete: I like matsuura machines
07:55 PM CaptHindsight: still sorting
07:55 PM andypugh: The event was actually in someone’s workshop. He has a couple of CNC lathes (on original controls) and a 6-axis AXA milliing machine on LinuxCNC.
07:55 PM CaptHindsight: the head and table are great
07:55 PM BeachBumPete: or at least the two I got to run for awhile ;)
07:56 PM CaptHindsight: vintage 1980 so I can't complain
07:56 PM CaptHindsight: i ran it at top speed for several months
07:57 PM andypugh: There was also a new, small, CNC lathe (Weiler) which we got going with a midified carousel component
07:57 PM CaptHindsight: noticed it getting progressively warmer
07:57 PM andypugh: rene-dev turned up with a surface grinder he found in a scrapyard
07:58 PM CaptHindsight: how big is the AXA?
07:59 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYTYi7Z2_qc
07:59 PM CaptHindsight: similar? ^^^
07:59 PM andypugh: One of these, but without the interesting right-hand console/pod http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f44/157317d1450516285-new-me-jung-g60-surface-grinder-2015-12-18-14.44.08.jpg
08:00 PM andypugh: rene-dev: Any idea what that is?
08:00 PM CaptHindsight: not a bad find in the junkyard
08:01 PM CaptHindsight: have to run, some late machining to do, I was sick the past week
08:01 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: I think the Axa was bigger, but less deep.
08:01 PM CaptHindsight: bbl
08:01 PM andypugh: It has a 2-way tilting head and a C-axis level with the table at one end
08:03 PM andypugh: Anyway, the point was that we had so much random stuff that we could mount an ER20 spindle on the toolpost of a spare lever-feed lathe topslide and re-grind the taper of the surface grinder as it had a slightly bent shaft.
08:13 PM Frank_: hi folks
08:23 PM andypugh: Hi
08:24 PM andypugh: Frank_: You hit a quiet spot
08:24 PM andypugh: Probably for the best, given what we were sidcussing
08:24 PM andypugh: That so ought to be a real word
08:25 PM Frank_: hehe
08:25 PM Frank_: i've been kind of a pain in the ass lately
08:26 PM Frank_: spindle works good, stepper motor too, now i just have to parametrize the servos, hopefully, using the machine with fusion360 files isnt too hard
08:27 PM andypugh: Is it a lathe or a mill?
08:28 PM andypugh: I have had problems with Fusion360 lathe CAM recently.
08:28 PM Frank_: its a router
08:28 PM andypugh: Should be fine then
08:29 PM Frank_: i wanted to upload a video to show what you've all have help me done, but i dont know where to upload, will try youtube : )
08:29 PM Frank_: yeah, mostly right now i need to do sheet 2d cutting
08:29 PM Frank_: not much of a problem i would think,
08:30 PM Frank_: i've been impressed of how much power does a stepper motor have
08:30 PM Frank_: 600oz in aprox
08:30 PM Frank_: with a 16mm ballscrew 5mm per turn
08:30 PM Frank_: it bent metal
08:30 PM Frank_: 1cm thick
08:32 PM andypugh: Yikws!
08:33 PM andypugh: You might even want less than that, for safety.
08:44 PM Tom_L: andypugh, what sort of lathe fusion problems?
08:44 PM andypugh: The fusion post seems to get IK-format arc centres wrong.
08:44 PM Tom_L: is the post easy to modify on it?
08:45 PM andypugh: I don’t know, haven’t tried yet
08:45 PM Tom_L: i considered looking at it. i really don't need it but was a bit curious
08:46 PM Tom_L: what can you import to it?
08:46 PM Tom_L: iges etc?
08:46 PM andypugh: Just about anything.
08:46 PM Tom_L: ironically solidworks will import more things than catia
08:47 PM andypugh: Certainly ipt, stl and obj, I have some all those this week.
08:47 PM Tom_L: it runs off the cloud doesn't it?
08:48 PM andypugh: (you need to import via their “cloud” interface for most formats. That bothers me, but only slightly.
08:48 PM Frank_: i still dont know what im going to do when my fusion "student" time ends :(
08:48 PM Tom_L: start up as a small business and i still think it's free
08:49 PM andypugh: It’s Student, hobbby or startup. If yoiu make less tha 20k a year from it, it’s free.
08:49 PM Frank_: still cant belive that next month it becomes 2 years since i started the cnc build and hang around the irc, mostly beeing annoying
08:49 PM Frank_: yes, but i think it lasts 3 years
08:49 PM Frank_: good thing im in year 1 :D
08:50 PM CaptHindsight: <--- waiting for spindle to cool to change tools
08:50 PM andypugh: it’s indefinite as long as the conditions apply.
08:51 PM Tom_L: do they monitor your net worth too?
08:51 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: most often i find SW or NX to do the most importin
08:51 PM Frank_: oh nice, however its most likely that eventually they will end that type of suscription
08:52 PM Frank_: sorry whats NX?
08:52 PM Tom_L: i've not used NX
08:52 PM Frank_: (IMHO)
08:52 PM CaptHindsight: even more expensive than catia tool :)
08:52 PM Tom_L: that's kinda hard to believe :D
08:52 PM Tom_L: at around 75k
08:53 PM Tom_L: but you don't have to get it all
08:54 PM CaptHindsight: NX starts around $20k
08:54 PM Frank_: omg
08:54 PM Frank_: link me torrent pls (kidding?)
08:54 PM Frank_: lol
08:55 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.quora.com/How-do-Siemens-NX-and-CATIA-V5-compare-What-are-the-advantages-of-each
08:55 PM CaptHindsight: some old pricing in there
08:56 PM CaptHindsight: hard to compare since they don't publish prices
08:56 PM CaptHindsight: and they all have extra packages like CAM and extra doodads
08:57 PM Tom_L: my bud purchased a seat back when he had his shop
08:57 PM Tom_L: the cam on catia sucks
08:57 PM LeelooMinai: Frank_: What do you mean when your student time ends... F360 is free for hobbiests/startups up to $100k income per year or something like that.
08:57 PM Tom_L: catia does all sorts of other things
08:57 PM CaptHindsight: it all depends on who you do work for
08:58 PM CaptHindsight: top manufacturers use Creo, NX or catia
08:58 PM Frank_: leeloominai: if im not mistaken, i've read somewhere that it lasts 3 years that suscription of free hobby, student use, i might be wrong thou. andy thinks its indefenite as long as conditions apply
08:58 PM CaptHindsight: some use 2 or all
08:58 PM Tom_L: yeah, most of the aircraft around here use catia
08:59 PM LeelooMinai: Frank_: No, it's just free for any amount of time.
08:59 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: I am curious about why he excludes Inventor
08:59 PM Tom_L: they tend to push it here
08:59 PM Frank_: well then, awesome :D
08:59 PM CaptHindsight: Inventor is considered a middle tier
08:59 PM CaptHindsight: like SW
08:59 PM LeelooMinai: and you don't event need to be online as people think - there's a setting for how long you can not log in and I have it for 360 days, so... who cares - you can work online or offline really.
09:00 PM andypugh: I am fairly sure that Inventor cam scale pretty big. My employer uses it. (for the factories, not the cars)
09:00 PM Tom_L: those would be more for job shops
09:00 PM Frank_: i think we have to consider what its going to be used for, most of us wont take full advantage of any high quality software
09:00 PM CaptHindsight: NX and catia have tons of extra tools
09:00 PM Frank_: maybe im wrong, dunno
09:01 PM CaptHindsight: I've used them all
09:01 PM CaptHindsight: except for autocad, never really got it down
09:01 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, how familiar are you with both of them?
09:01 PM Tom_L: my kid just finished acad class and seemed to like it ok
09:01 PM CaptHindsight: heh, they tend to get blended in my head
09:01 PM sync: haha wut andypugh
09:02 PM sync: that sounds strange that they use another cad solution for factory design
09:02 PM Tom_L: i know it's easy to forget if you don't use them
09:02 PM BeachBumPete: I use draftsight which is an autocad clone quite a bit very easy to use
09:02 PM Frank_: im about to finish my first machine and im already thinking of my next mesa card :P did it become an addiction to you too?
09:02 PM CaptHindsight: I'll use them for days on end then not for as few months
09:03 PM CaptHindsight: and on top of it every year or they change features, especially SW
09:03 PM Tom_L: i'm kinda waiting to see how he does after his acad class. he's going back to finish his catia surfaces class next
09:04 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: when I sit down it all comes back pretty quick for the main stuff
09:04 PM Tom_L: they're talking about starting a ver 6 conversion class soon
09:04 PM Tom_L: some of the pc's at the votech have 6 loaded
09:04 PM CaptHindsight: the extra little features get forgotten or you think it works the way the other package works
09:05 PM Frank_: i need to buy a graphics card for these programs, what do you use/recommend?
09:05 PM Tom_L: you don't 'have' to
09:05 PM sync: quadro is the way to go
09:05 PM Frank_: 1070gtx 1060?1080?
09:05 PM Tom_L: i'm using 1080 on mine
09:05 PM Frank_: sync: no freaking way hehehe
09:05 PM andypugh: Frank_: I have Mesa cards that I find myself thinking of uses for. I have a 7i76, so clearly a large delta 3D printer is necessary.
09:05 PM sync: it is
09:06 PM Frank_: hahahaha
09:06 PM sync: I have a 1080ti but the performance sucks compared to a quadro
09:06 PM Frank_: im thinking of a 2 axis painting robot
09:06 PM Frank_: for mdf sheets
09:06 PM sync: not that the hardware is different, but the drivers
09:06 PM Frank_: pretty straightforward i think
09:06 PM LeelooMinai: Frank_: There are specialized cards, but I would not bother unless you are some hard-core professional who does CAD 8 hours per day - they are expensive. Any modern GPU should work fine - just see how much you can spend and go for it imo.
09:06 PM Frank_: maybe not even need a mesa card
09:06 PM CaptHindsight: Frank_: I use LCNC for inkjet printers
09:06 PM Tom_L: but i'm not trying to load a whole airframe either...
09:07 PM Frank_: i have the onboards graphics of my i5 4690k and it kind of did the job until now
09:07 PM andypugh: I used to use Inventor 8 hours a day. Fusion is rather different in detail, but simialr in philosphy.
09:08 PM sync: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/specviewperf-12-workstation-graphics-benchmark,3778-15.html
09:08 PM andypugh: Anyway, sleep time.
09:08 PM CaptHindsight: SW is easiest to use imho
09:08 PM Tom_L: gnite andy
09:08 PM sync: see the old 780ti on the bottom
09:08 PM sync: still the same story with a 1080
09:08 PM Frank_: andypugh: i wouldnt want to be after those 8 hours, my brain explodes after 2 right now heh
09:08 PM LeelooMinai: $200+ card will probably do fine. I would think more about 4K monitor setup though - with a bit better card - maybe $300+
09:08 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, maybe... catia is fresher in my mind
09:08 PM CaptHindsight: I find that industrial designers prefer CREO
09:09 PM LeelooMinai: A big 4K monitor will be worth it for CAD.
09:09 PM sync: only with a proper gpu
09:09 PM CaptHindsight: they say it has features for working with surfaces that the other don't make as weasy
09:09 PM Frank_: really? im with an old 19'' stupid lg
09:09 PM Frank_: it hard thou
09:09 PM sync: unless you are designing really simple parts
09:09 PM LeelooMinai: Right, that's why I wrote that probably $300 card minimum for 4K
09:10 PM sync: a $300 card will not work well if you have any complexity in the assemblys
09:10 PM CaptHindsight: late for andy, is he on vacation?
09:10 PM LeelooMinai: Frank_: Well, just think about it - for CAD the more surface and more pixels you have, the better.
09:10 PM CaptHindsight: forgot to ask
09:10 PM Frank_: yeah, im not doing super detailed stuff, probably the most difficult part that ill ever make is a super neat 800kg router designed to mill aluminum 1*1.2 M
09:10 PM LeelooMinai: sync: If you design a plane, probably.
09:10 PM sync: no
09:11 PM Frank_: its like my before 30 years dream lol
09:11 PM LeelooMinai: Frank_: Don't listen to sync - he always counters with NASA scenarios:p
09:11 PM sync: it makes a noticable difference with a few dozens of parts
09:11 PM Tom_L: it's true though
09:12 PM Frank_: the best i would do is a 1080
09:12 PM Tom_L: seems fine to me
09:12 PM sync: the performance of consumer cards is a joke, because of the driver situation
09:12 PM Tom_L: i run dual monitors when doing cad
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: yeah same silicon, less driver stuff
09:13 PM Frank_: i've read the opposite thou, tried none, so i dont really have an opinion
09:13 PM LeelooMinai: Triple monitors minimum for anything imo:)
09:13 PM Frank_: i hate you leeloo
09:13 PM Tom_L: dito
09:13 PM Frank_: hate=envy
09:13 PM sync: yeah, I run three 4k screens
09:13 PM LeelooMinai: No, I am serious - 2 is a fail imo. You want center and left, right, for obvious reasons.
09:13 PM Frank_: i run outside when its not raining
09:14 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/cad-station.jpg
09:14 PM CaptHindsight: how many more years until direct connection to optical cortex?
09:14 PM Tom_L: beat that
09:14 PM malcom2073_: Speaking of nasa
09:14 PM Frank_: *im just here to watch lol*
09:14 PM malcom2073_: I do cad work on my laptop with a single screen heh
09:14 PM sync: haha, I've been thinking of adding another row
09:16 PM sync: but it would be above the current row, which would probably annoy me
09:16 PM Tom_L: i think i would stack em if i had 6
09:16 PM sync: yeah, I'd need a new desk
09:16 PM sync: so the bottom row could sink down
09:16 PM Frank_: and 300 amp fuse
09:17 PM sync: nah, I have ~42kW avalible, that should be enough
09:18 PM sync: ~available
09:18 PM LeelooMinai: I want 120 deg panoramic highly curved monitor - more or less 4Kx3, but seamless :)
09:19 PM LeelooMinai: Cirved to 80cm radius or so.
09:20 PM sync: I'd rather have more resolution in my 27"
09:20 PM sync: or have a 25" panel or something
09:20 PM sync: something between 24 and 27
09:20 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: https://sites.google.com/site/khromtor/_/rsrc/1360746942922/home/P3140543tt.jpg :)
09:20 PM roycroft: my new imac has a nice display
09:21 PM roycroft: i'm quite pleased with that aspect of it
09:21 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Meh, 27 4K can be only $500 or so, but, waste of pixels imo, unles you sit 30cm from it.
09:21 PM roycroft: 27" retina display, 5120x2880 resolution
09:22 PM roycroft: and i have a 24
09:22 PM sync: not if you have good eyes like me LeelooMinai
09:22 PM LeelooMinai: I guess you could use it as 27" smarphone:)
09:22 PM roycroft: " dell display as a secondary, with 1920x1080 resolution
09:22 PM sync: I run stuff at 90-100% scaling on the 4k screens
09:22 PM sync: so I gain space
09:22 PM LeelooMinai: sync: O, wait, I forgot - was it you that claimed hawk-like level of vision? :)
09:22 PM malcom2073_: Frank_: Ignoring the nasa level budgets, I've yet to hit the limits doing hobby work with even my 970M card in my laptop, though I've not done much beyond 5-10k parts in a model yet
09:22 PM roycroft: i like the extra real estate
09:23 PM Frank_: Tom_L: i remember a few years ago starting to learn abour the cnc world, figuring out if i wanted a plasma, router etc, and remember reading your posts on cnczone like saying: this guy knows his stuff!
09:23 PM roycroft: but my eyes are not what they used to be, so i tend to make things big on it
09:23 PM Tom_L: Frank_, wasn't me
09:23 PM roycroft: on my primary workspace, though, i can tile 6 xterms with no overlap in a size that i can easily read
09:23 PM Tom_L: i stay off the forums
09:23 PM roycroft: i could only tile 4 of them with my old machine
09:24 PM sync: LeelooMinai: I'm not blind, yes
09:24 PM LeelooMinai: Related: today I found that there is something called progressive lens for glasses now:)
09:24 PM roycroft: and that's just on the primary display
09:24 PM Frank_: malcom2073_: wow thats a lot of parts, i dont think i will ever get to half of that, what do you need 10k parts for?
09:24 PM roycroft: i can tile 4 more on the secondary display
09:24 PM sync: LeelooMinai: it has been a thing for over 60 years
09:24 PM Frank_: Tom_L: oh sorry i confused you with tommylight my bad
09:25 PM sync: they even had it in soviet poland
09:25 PM Tom_L: yeah he's pretty sharp
09:25 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Not on my planet - people used bifocals in the past.
09:25 PM malcom2073_: Frank_: Very large lego designs... not mine, my stuff doesn't get nearly that large
09:27 PM sync: then you must live under a rock LeelooMinai
09:41 PM jdh: or are just under 40
09:50 PM LeelooMinai: sync: ...
09:50 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I am talking about consumer market availability - they are affordable now mostly because of CNCs, computers calculating shapes from prescription, etc.
09:51 PM LeelooMinai: I don't think it was a thing 60 yo, or even 20
09:51 PM SpeedEvil: And diamond cutting
09:51 PM SpeedEvil: to get near net shape immediately, rather than going the polishing route
09:51 PM LeelooMinai: I just googled this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfyM33vostY
09:52 PM LeelooMinai: And they claim they have supercomputers to deal with prescriptions, etc.
09:53 PM LeelooMinai: Makes sense - since it's all automated the initial cost is high, but if they are big lens/glasses company, it lets them keep prices sensible.
09:54 PM sync: LeelooMinai: individual progressive lenses are a fairly new thing, but the lenses itself, not
09:54 PM sync: for the average user they have been on the market for a long time
09:54 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I was talking glasses - as opposed to old style glued bifocals.
09:54 PM sync: yes
09:54 PM sync: in glasses.
09:55 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Well, all I can say that when I was getting glasses last time, no one mentioned this is a thing:)
09:56 PM LeelooMinai: So this time maybe I need to do more research and maybe just get presscription and then order what I want.
09:56 PM LeelooMinai: Seems you can get TX glasses for $6 now - from acrylic...
09:56 PM LeelooMinai: RX&
09:56 PM sync: it tells you even in the video
09:56 PM sync: that they were on the market 60 years ago
09:57 PM LeelooMinai: And how did it work... considering that nowadays they do laser measurement of all the problems and then shape the lens according to that...
09:58 PM sync: "patented calculations" lul
09:58 PM sync: you compromise. you calculate a shape that fits a certain spectrum of users
09:58 PM sync: and then build a machine to grind them
09:58 PM LeelooMinai: 60 years ago they what - had a guy making the lens for you for a month and then you selling your house for it?
09:59 PM sync: no
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10:00 PM Tom_itx is now known as Guest46818
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10:00 PM LeelooMinai: So does not count:)
10:01 PM LeelooMinai: Also, why are glasses so, small...
10:01 PM jdh: I have small ones and big ones
10:01 PM LeelooMinai: I have normalish ones and I see frames in my vision - that's silly.
10:01 PM jdh: get bigger ones
10:02 PM jdh: my progressives are pretty small. seeing the frames makes no difference
10:02 PM LeelooMinai: I cannot see any - I mean I cannot see prescription glasses with panoramic view, like for bikers, etc.
10:02 PM jdh: I have rx glasses for cycling. single vision though
10:03 PM LeelooMinai: Imo glasses should extend to sides and follow head curvature.
10:03 PM sync: LeelooMinai: how can you be so oblivious? the video told you that the introduced that stuff to the mass market 60 years ago, who cares how they made it profitable, they obviously did
10:03 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Who told you I watched the whole video...
10:03 PM LeelooMinai: I just watched some pieces quickly.
10:03 PM LeelooMinai: No time for whole video:)
10:04 PM Frank_: Goodnight guys
10:04 PM LeelooMinai: I guess maybe they have machine for lenses that have some size limit:(
10:04 PM LeelooMinai: And that's why they don't make big glasses.
10:04 PM LeelooMinai: Will wait till 2030
10:05 PM jdh: I think most blanks are basically the same size then they cut them to fit the frame
10:05 PM LeelooMinai: RIght, but to make glasses like what I think of, you would need pretty big circle.
10:05 PM sync: LeelooMinai: then stop arguing
10:06 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I am not arguing - I am stating facts:)
10:06 PM sync: LeelooMinai: move your head, that is also how progressive ones work
10:06 PM sync: no
10:06 PM sync: you are not
10:06 PM jdh: how about opinions
10:06 PM sync: progressive glasses did obviously not cost your house 60 years ago
10:06 PM LeelooMinai: sync: You do not move your head with respect to glasses...
10:07 PM LeelooMinai: You move the eyeballs.
10:07 PM sync: do you have experience with progressive glasses?
10:07 PM jdh: no, you move your head
10:07 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I don't need any - it's a simple concept.
10:07 PM sync: actually it is not
10:08 PM LeelooMinai: The difficulty is in making them and calculating the shape.
10:08 PM jdh: nah
10:08 PM sync: what do you do when the object you want to see is not in your FOV of the eyes
10:08 PM sync: you need to move your head
10:08 PM sync: it is a simple concept
10:08 PM jdh: so, how 'bout that cnc stuff!
10:08 PM LeelooMinai: sync: You may, but if you don't, you can also just move the eyballs with the same effect.
10:09 PM sync: you cannot
10:09 PM sync: as then you will not see sharp
10:09 PM sync: as the focal distance is *progressive*
10:10 PM LeelooMinai: sync: That does not make any sense of course.
10:10 PM jdh: sync: xkcd 386
10:11 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Obviously if you move the head and not eyballs, you changed zero in terms of your glasses + eyes, hence, QED
10:11 PM sync: I know jdh, but I'm bored
10:11 PM sync: which is what you want LeelooMinai
10:11 PM sync: you adjust the focal distance by tilting your head
10:11 PM jdh: I've been wearing them for years.
10:11 PM sync: and your fov of your eyes is limited.
10:12 PM sync: so you need to tilt
10:12 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Still no sense.
10:12 PM sync: it is a simple concept to understand
10:12 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, yet you don't somehow - don't know why that is...
10:12 PM sync: you don't understand
10:12 PM LeelooMinai: No, I do, you don't:)
10:12 PM sync: you cannot adjust the focus with your eyes unless you want to look at something different
10:12 PM sync: ok
10:13 PM sync: so why is the near focal plane in a bifocal at the bottom?
10:13 PM sync: and not up?
10:13 PM LeelooMinai: Because poople read this way - not holding books over the head.
10:13 PM sync: what do you do when you want to read a sign at your height of your head?
10:14 PM LeelooMinai: Then you move both the head and the eyeball.
10:14 PM sync: yes, so you adjusted the focal length by moving your head
10:14 PM sync: because the eyes stay on the object and the head moved
10:14 PM sync: this is the motion you do with progressives all the time.
10:14 PM sync: it is a simple concept
10:15 PM sync: only with a progressive you do it everywhere
10:15 PM LeelooMinai: sync: You are still wrong on the original statement - you cannot do that just by moveing the head. You need to move the eyballs too.
10:16 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Did you even have geometry in elementary school? :)
10:17 PM sync: you implied that I said you don't move the eyeballs, I just said that the basic motion you have to learn with progressives is that you need to move your head
10:17 PM sync: which is what every person I know with progressives told me
10:17 PM sync: as it is counterintuitive
10:18 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Lies. You wrote "you need to move your head"
10:18 PM sync: yes, which does not imply anything about your eyes
10:19 PM LeelooMinai: But it's false - you can keep your head in place and move the eyeballs: as long as the object is in eyesight this way, you can have your head screwed to the wall...
10:20 PM LeelooMinai: In eyesight and you see it through the right lens area of course.
10:20 PM sync: which is why you need to move your head...
10:20 PM LeelooMinai: ...
10:20 PM LeelooMinai: You want to write "you may have to move your head, but not necessarily"
10:21 PM LeelooMinai: If you have a book on your lap, a chance is you can have a peek fine and then look back at the computer screen - without moving the head.
10:21 PM sync: then you could also argue, you may want to wear glasses, but not always
10:22 PM LeelooMinai: I do not wear glasses to sleep, yes... :)
10:22 PM sync: you can also adjust your distance to get your viewing object into focus
10:22 PM sync: so why wear glasses
10:22 PM sync: it is the same argument
10:22 PM LeelooMinai: Not with just eyeball movement.
10:23 PM LeelooMinai: Step 2: make glasses that track your eyball and change shape...
10:23 PM sync: well, I'm not arguing with you any more, you just like to autism too much, on ignore you go
10:24 PM LeelooMinai: I also happen to be right, that's why I argue.
10:38 PM pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEM6ny2h1ZY
10:39 PM pink_vampire: it is also important and true for bench top machines.