Jun 13 2017
12:24 AM IchGucksLive: morning from Germany
12:27 AM IchGucksLive: off till later
01:17 AM Crom: wow snow in Carson City Nevada
01:30 AM roycroft: our snow level is at 1500m tonight
01:30 AM roycroft: really low for this time of year
01:31 AM roycroft: there will be snow in some of the passes
02:21 AM Deejay: moin
04:10 AM IchGucksLive: hi
04:44 AM pink_vampire: hi
04:50 AM SpeedEvil is now known as Guest51178
05:04 AM XXCoder: yo pink_vampire
05:16 AM jthornton: morning
05:16 AM XXCoder: hey
05:18 AM jthornton: what's up today
05:19 AM XXCoder: fairly boring work today
05:19 AM XXCoder: finished 2 books and read half of 3rd lol
05:19 AM XXCoder: (granted first one was already 98% done)
05:20 AM jthornton: do a lot of reading at work while waiting
05:22 AM XXCoder: yeah I have read hundreds of books
05:42 AM phipli: morning
05:43 AM XXCoder: hey
05:43 AM jthornton: morning
05:44 AM phipli: jthornton: door opening scheduler worked over night
05:44 AM jthornton: nice
05:44 AM phipli: just need to set its time
05:44 AM XXCoder: thought it was jt who made it? lol
05:44 AM phipli: it works in minutes per day
05:45 AM phipli: XXCoder: everyone needs an auto chicken door opener
05:45 AM phipli: are you telling me you're not working on one?
05:45 AM XXCoder: bah now I have yet another project
05:45 AM XXCoder: thanks!
05:45 AM phipli: :)
05:46 AM jthornton: mine down here closed the door a bit late I think at 8:42 sunset was 8:22
05:46 AM pink_vampire: i'm working on the power hacksaw
05:46 AM pink_vampire: it make ton of noise
05:46 AM phipli: XXCoder: http://elephantandchicken.co.uk/chickenProjects/PrototypeFunctionalityTest01.mp4
05:46 AM XXCoder: pink_vampire: noise is good ;)
05:46 AM phipli: pink_vampire: that means you can tell when something goes wrong from the far side of the shop
05:47 AM XXCoder: phi yeah saw the video. pretty cool.
05:47 AM pink_vampire: I'm trying to add shims to it
05:48 AM pink_vampire: but I think I will need to make a new part for it
05:50 AM phipli: I'm going to have another go at aligning the antique in the shed today
05:52 AM jthornton: and the real chicken door goes up on time :)
05:52 AM XXCoder: nice
05:53 AM phipli: jthornton: I think the chickens will forgive you two minutes?
05:53 AM jthornton: actually it's a bit early going up but the timer only has 15 minute intervals
05:54 AM jthornton: did you see my comment about the lathe head bolts?
05:54 AM phipli: I don't think I did
05:55 AM phipli: When / where?
05:55 AM jthornton: if the surface under the bolts is worn it might make aligning the head difficult
05:56 AM phipli: I've thought about it more as well
05:56 AM phipli: I was being a bit daft - I didn't think the tailstock had been to bits
05:56 AM phipli: but... if that is /way/ out
05:56 AM phipli: that would explain my difficulty
05:57 AM phipli: it means I have almost 100% unknowns for alignment :)
05:57 AM phipli: woo
05:57 AM phipli: everything needs setting
05:57 AM jthornton: a large piece of stock in the chuck and a dial indicator on the tool post to align
05:57 AM phipli: and I don't have a piece of straight bar in the place
05:57 AM phipli: :)
05:58 AM * archivist_herron hides all his bits
05:58 AM phipli: heh
05:58 AM jthornton: you could use the face of the chuck to get close
05:58 AM phipli: yes - I was considering that
05:58 AM phipli: perhaps the shank of a tool or something
06:00 AM archivist_herron: or ground rod/silver steel from www.cromwell.co.uk down the road
06:00 AM phipli: LOL - couldn't find exact match (manufacturer) components to repair a circuit so bought random ones off tinterweb
06:00 AM phipli: the ones that have turned up are NXP... the old ones are Philips...
06:00 AM phipli: I'll settle for the same company with a different name
06:01 AM archivist_herron: Mullard!
06:01 AM jthornton: and the chickens all go out
06:01 AM phipli: I don't have any Mullard Thyristors
06:02 AM archivist_herron: Mullard was owned by Philips :)
06:02 AM XXCoder: Aluminium Mullard
06:03 AM XXCoder: ;) older game spaceship name. a play on Millenium Falcon
06:04 AM phipli: Along with Titanium RCA?
06:04 AM archivist_herron: phipli, before you align tailstock to chuck, is the bed straight
06:05 AM phipli: I don't have an accurate level
06:05 AM archivist_herron: do I need to visit with one?
06:05 AM XXCoder: you can use dial indictor with one
06:05 AM phipli: not really set up for this - the thing was dumped on me out of the blue - "mostly done, just needs a couple of bits and setting up"
06:06 AM jthornton: I have a machinist level but I wonder how you can level the bed without one?
06:06 AM archivist_herron: I started out with a Tyzack Zyto lathe, was similar
06:07 AM phipli: how accurate are digital accelerometers?
06:07 AM phipli: I could build one?
06:08 AM archivist_herron: not something I would have considered
06:08 AM phipli: I have a number of accelerometers lying about and they always point towards 9.81m/s/s
06:08 AM archivist_herron: but they seem to be in degrees rather than thou per foot
06:08 AM XXCoder: lol
06:08 AM phipli: I guess getting a reference surface is tricky
06:09 AM XXCoder: its easy to do comparive
06:09 AM XXCoder: it should be enough to see if something is wonky though not enough to say "yes its nice and stright"
06:09 AM archivist_herron: you put a level on the slide and traverse end to end, adjust feet for no(small) change
06:09 AM phipli: XXCoder: *would be easy to do comparative - if I had a level :p
06:10 AM XXCoder: you can make one
06:10 AM XXCoder: just a bent clear pipe
06:10 AM XXCoder: you need a way to tune it
06:11 AM XXCoder: I think rotating it on flat surface and adjusting both tool and surface would get it pretty close
06:11 AM XXCoder: evenually it would reach a point where bubble dont mive at any rotation
06:11 AM XXCoder: or just go to store buy cheap $10 one
06:12 AM phipli: a regular level instead of a machinists one?
06:12 AM phipli: I have a regular one somewhere
06:12 AM XXCoder: didnt know machinist level existed
06:12 AM phipli: is this where you point out that is actually what you meant?
06:12 AM jthornton: any level is a start
06:12 AM phipli: sigh. Sorry folks
06:12 AM phipli: I thought we were looking for high degrees of precision
06:13 AM phipli: *higher
06:13 AM phipli: it has a machined surface so wont be the worst
06:13 AM XXCoder: it should be enough to see "okay its wonky" and probably not enough for "its nice and dialed in"
06:14 AM sync: phipli: you are looking for a level with a resolution better than 0.1mm/m
06:15 AM archivist_herron: phipli, and an old standard to work to http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJC/BK/BK3151/pg0053.jpg
06:16 AM archivist_herron: that and this page with the errors permitted http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJC/BK/BK3151/pg0054.jpg
06:17 AM XXCoder: phipli: you really need dial indictor and dial test indictor
06:17 AM archivist_herron: those are 1980s machine room so just try to get close
06:17 AM XXCoder: archivist_herron: wow the fig 2 is interesting
06:17 AM XXCoder: using rope to test hmm parallelism of rail?
06:17 AM archivist_herron: steel wire
06:17 AM phipli: I have a DTI
06:18 AM XXCoder: oh picture wasnt clear. makes sense
06:18 AM archivist_herron: steel wire under tension
06:19 AM phipli: have you seen the wire tensioners on the railway?
06:19 AM XXCoder: arch error for bed, 0-0.02mm per 1m. convex one side and concave other side. weird
06:19 AM archivist_herron: yup
06:19 AM XXCoder: I guess those cancel each other or something?
06:20 AM archivist_herron: phipli, you skiving off work this week?
06:20 AM phipli: http://www.railway-technical.com/_Media/ole-tension-weights-old_med.png
06:20 AM phipli: archivist_herron: yes
06:21 AM phipli: It is June and I have had nearly no leave
06:21 AM phipli: I had 24 days left to take...
06:21 AM phipli: Not very good at the holiday thing
06:21 AM archivist_herron: ok free Thursday afternoon if you want me to bring a level
06:22 AM phipli: :) thanks for the offer - but I'll either get one or borrow from someone
06:23 AM XXCoder: what stealing isn't an option?
06:24 AM phipli: not really no
06:24 AM XXCoder: lol
06:24 AM XXCoder: your kingdom for one?
06:27 AM phipli: Beer?
06:27 AM phipli: anyhow. lunchtime
06:30 AM XXCoder: lol
06:31 AM XXCoder: no thanks I dont drink
07:32 AM Tom_L: nxp is phillips...
07:37 AM MrSunshine: wooohoo did first test cut today with the new machine! =) feels quite good =) now its just all the rest to do with it .. hook up vacuum system for the table .. dust collection .. home switches ...
07:38 AM phipli: Tom_L: That is what I was saying - I ended up with the manufacturer I wanted.
08:14 AM BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil
08:41 AM MrSunshine: inductive sensors .. good enough for home switches ?
08:42 AM MrSunshine: finding senors claiming 0.01mm accuracy
08:43 AM MrSunshine: but as i understand they are not so accurate depending on speed
09:11 AM archivist_herron: MrSunshine, or when covered in iron swarf
09:18 AM IchGucksLive: hi
09:19 AM IchGucksLive: MrSunshine: most manual switches are realy good and kost less
09:20 AM IchGucksLive: induktiv makes your mashine look more PRO
09:29 AM MrSunshine: archivist_herron: wood working machine
09:31 AM archivist_herron: you dont need excessive accuracy then
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: the simple switches are 0,05mm
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: or if you grep good ones even better
09:44 AM IchGucksLive: MrSunshine: i use the Tempco Microswitch and they show that acuracy
09:45 AM IchGucksLive: MrSunshine: if you look in the BAY search 8111 switch
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: this are looking better but are the same a inductive with manuell
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: the blue ones
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-Position-Limit-Switch-ME-8108-8104-9101-8166-8107-8111-8112-8122-Actuator-/182498834302
09:47 AM IchGucksLive: and they are for all soluchens fitable
09:48 AM IchGucksLive: ok till later
11:17 AM _abc_: Hello. Simple matching square peg to round hole question: I have a 3.15mm shank and I want to fit it into a 3.0mm hole, it will be epoxied. No lathe available. I will put it in a spindle and use abrasive to turn it down, checking with calipers now and ...
11:17 AM _abc_: ... then. Does this sound like a crazy plan? Shoot it down please?
11:18 AM archivist: diamond file
11:18 AM _abc_: iirc abrasive takes off up to 5um per pass, should not take too long.
11:18 AM _abc_: I have diamond files. The shank is not hardened, it is soft.
11:18 AM _abc_: Abrasive paper scratches it.
11:18 AM _abc_: Any reason to use a file in this case?
11:18 AM archivist: it takes a while, mount in a dremel as a lathe
11:19 AM _abc_: Yes, I have a spindle I can use for this.
11:19 AM _abc_: Should I use oil? Water cooling?
11:19 AM archivist: you will find any wet and dry will soon fill, lube may help
11:20 AM archivist: stick it to a bit of flat steel to make a "file"
11:20 AM _abc_: 5um per pass assuming uniform work gets to 125/5 = 25 turns? Something is wrong?
11:21 AM _abc_: I have a flat piece for this but I intend to use a 'clamp' style tool, with the abrasive inside. Like tweezers with the abrasive draped on the inside so I can squeeze.
11:21 AM archivist: clockmakers have a bits of tool steel with papers glued on as shaft polishers
11:21 AM _abc_: I am sure they have. I am not a clockmaker. Is the tweezers idea not good?
11:22 AM archivist: less area in tweezers have to replace more often
11:22 AM _abc_: How much is taken off per pass of fine abrasive, say P600 or finer? I can't find numbers. 30 years ago there were books for this.
11:23 AM archivist: ahile I have stacks of books, I have never seen a table like that
11:23 AM _abc_: Well it was a side note on how many um are taken off per pass with abrasive xx.
11:23 AM archivist: on a grinding machine maybe not with papers
11:24 AM _abc_: http://www.abrasiveengineering.com/speeds.htm
11:24 AM _abc_: Oh sure. Except some machines use abrasive paper tape, endless or single use.
11:25 AM archivist: its not solid so no fixed numbers
11:26 AM _abc_: Okay, will have to experiment. Operate for 2 minutes, measure etc
11:26 AM _abc_: Will be fun
11:27 AM archivist: boring trying to get an exact amount
11:28 AM archivist: often easier to open out the hole
11:29 AM pink_vampire: how difficult is to machine HSS blade?
11:30 AM archivist: grind the blade
11:31 AM pink_vampire: onw sec i'm taking a pic
11:36 AM pink_vampire: http://i.imgur.com/xJLMxQs.png
11:36 AM roycroft: if you have the correct grinder wheel it's pretty straightforward, pink_vampire
11:36 AM pink_vampire: http://i.imgur.com/ssBhS00.png
11:36 AM pink_vampire: http://i.imgur.com/56bMPgm.png
11:36 AM djdelorie: are those types of blades hardened?
11:36 AM pink_vampire: It's say hss
11:37 AM pink_vampire: and under the paint is all black
11:37 AM djdelorie: test it with a file, see if it's hardened
11:37 AM djdelorie: if so, you can probably soften it with a torch
11:38 AM pink_vampire: http://www.mutualscrew.com/product/starrett-rs3006-12-x-6-tpi-power-hacksaw-blade-solid-high-speed-steel-194053.cfm?source=froogle&gclid=CPnN9oeau9QCFdCFswod9XQKPQ
11:38 AM archivist: make your saw use standard blades never modify them
11:38 AM djdelorie: "fully hardened molybdenum "
11:38 AM archivist: many are now made of two metals
11:39 AM roycroft: my bandsaw blades are bi-metal
11:39 AM pink_vampire: file didn't even touch it, the dremel just make very small slot
11:39 AM djdelorie: yeah, you need to anneal it first
11:39 AM roycroft: for my wood cutting bandsaw, that is
11:39 AM pink_vampire: so i had to machine it
11:39 AM archivist: you want the original hardness when uou use them
11:40 AM djdelorie: or mill with carbide? something harder than hardened HSS :-)
11:40 AM roycroft: hardened steel tends to crack when you bend it, so it's not suitable for the main body of a bandsaw blade
11:40 AM archivist: softening saw blades is not a good idea
11:40 AM pink_vampire: I machined it with 1/8" carbide
11:40 AM roycroft: yes, it's quite difficult to reharden and retemper them
11:40 AM djdelorie: can't you just soften the little bit you're machining?
11:41 AM LeelooMinai: pink_vampire: Is it expensive to get new one?
11:41 AM archivist: not sensible, also not sensible to machine saw blades,
11:41 AM djdelorie: "not sensible" is often our motto here ;-)
11:42 AM archivist: make the mounting correct on the machine
11:42 AM archivist: trying to be polite :)
11:42 AM pink_vampire: the blade is for power hacksaw from 1950
11:42 AM djdelorie: I mean sure, grinder+water would be the best way, but not always possible/practical
11:42 AM pink_vampire: I'm not going to modify it
11:43 AM pink_vampire: I don't have a grinder
11:43 AM djdelorie: you'd need a diamond or SC wheel, though
11:43 AM roycroft: archivist: i have etching supplies arriving later this week - i'm going to start experimenting with making etched badhes very soon
11:43 AM roycroft: i haven't decided whether to use brass or copper yet
11:44 AM roycroft: badges, not badhes
11:44 AM archivist: brass has teh "looks"
11:44 AM djdelorie: we don't need no stinkin badhes
11:44 AM roycroft: i like red metal
11:44 AM djdelorie: roycroft: which etchant are you using?
11:44 AM roycroft: but some of the filler wax will be red
11:45 AM roycroft: iron(ii) chloride
11:45 AM djdelorie: oh good, the safe one :-)
11:45 AM roycroft: possibly with the addition of some hcl and h2o2
11:46 AM roycroft: but i'm going to start out with just the salt
11:46 AM djdelorie: if you're going with HCl/H2O2 *anyway*, don't bother with the FeCl
11:46 AM pink_vampire: I need help with identifying a thread
11:46 AM djdelorie: but... don't ;-)
11:46 AM archivist: kitten licked some, then milk to take the taste away, puked it up and lived a long life after
11:46 AM roycroft: my understanding is that the hcl/h2o2 additions are used to "replenish" spent fecl2
11:47 AM roycroft: but i'm going to start with just the fecl2 to see how it goes
11:47 AM djdelorie: better to use FeCl and some mechanical step, like rubbing with a FeCl-infused sponge
11:47 AM roycroft: my plan is to start with some small squares and experiment with various techniques to sort out what works well for me
11:47 AM djdelorie: HCl/H2O2 is its own etchant, it's not replenishing the FeCl, it's replacing it :-)
11:47 AM pink_vampire: the diameter of the thread on the nut is 0.203"
11:48 AM djdelorie: roycroft: see http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/
11:48 AM roycroft: the badges on my lathe are ~0.040" thick, and that seems like a nice weight to work with
11:48 AM roycroft: stiff enough to handle without damage, and able to be etched fairly deeply
11:49 AM djdelorie: your biggest problem will be making your mask seal well enough to avoid etching the covered areas
11:49 AM LeelooMinai: Hey, you know how drill press tables have channels that make X across it. They are for clamping, right? What is the name of clamps that would fit there?
11:49 AM roycroft: i need to etch much more deeply than would be required for a pcb
11:50 AM djdelorie: etching that much takes a while
11:50 AM djdelorie: yeah, you really want spray etching, but that's not easily DIY
11:50 AM roycroft: yes, probably an hour and a half or more, with agitation
11:50 AM roycroft: i saw a masking technique that looks promising
11:50 AM djdelorie: or sacrifice an aquarium pump and hose down the brass
11:50 AM roycroft: the person took laser printable mailing labels, 2x per sheet
11:50 AM roycroft: removed one label
11:51 AM roycroft: printed on the slick silicone backing paper
11:51 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, T slot
11:51 AM roycroft: then ran the metal blank through a laminator several times to heat it up
11:51 AM djdelorie: or, failing all that, try to "float" the brass mask-down on top of the etchant, so the Cu falls away from it
11:51 AM roycroft: sandwiched it inside the mailing lable thing, and then ran through the laminator several more times
11:51 AM LeelooMinai: O, wait - so I can just use the clamping set probably I have... duh.
11:52 AM roycroft: after transferring the toner to the metal, he used a heat gun on the rear of the metal to better affix the toner to the metal, then etched
11:52 AM LeelooMinai: Well, still, it's a bit akward... I would rather have something that I can clamp fast.
11:52 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, may have different slot dimensions, make something?
11:52 AM roycroft: he was making clock faces with fine detail, and it worked out brilliantly for him
11:52 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premium-9-Drill-Press-Locking-Clamp-For-Holding-Vise-Drill-Press-Drilling-Etc-/151268579598
11:53 AM LeelooMinai: Seems that there are some specialized ones.
11:53 AM roycroft: i intend to float face down
11:53 AM djdelorie: the problem with toner is getting your printer to put enough of it down to cover 100%
11:53 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Going swimming? :)
11:54 AM roycroft: i have a pretty fancy printer
11:54 AM roycroft: i can adjust it to lay down a lot of toner - hopefully it will be enough
11:54 AM djdelorie: I use UV masks because of that, but that's not an easy DIY either.
11:54 AM djdelorie: there are toner sealing films you can buy, too
11:54 AM roycroft: i'm going to need some really fine detail
11:54 AM roycroft: as in 2mm high lettering
11:55 AM * LeelooMinai chceck the channel name
11:55 AM djdelorie: how fine? down to 0.012" or so is OK for toner, UV can get down to 0.005
11:55 AM LeelooMinai: I thought I was on some electronics-related one and you want to etch PCBs.
11:55 AM roycroft: 2mm = ~0.08"
11:55 AM archivist: roycroft, look at model engineer descriptions on name plate making
11:55 AM djdelorie: no, I mean that's how precise the mask is, not how high the letters are
11:56 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: You want to do toner-transfer?
11:57 AM roycroft: i hope that ~1cm square pieces are big enough for experimenting, as i don't want to waste a lot of metal sorting out a technique that gives me the desired results
11:57 AM roycroft: maybe 2cm square
11:58 AM djdelorie: I've done smaller :-) http://www.delorie.com/pcb/inkjet/insanity_II.jpg
11:58 AM roycroft: this is something i've wanted to do for a very long time, and finally i have an excuse to go ahead with it, as the badges on my lathe are pretty banged up
11:59 AM LeelooMinai: Ok, I see still offended. Well, anyways, since I have a lot of experience in toner transfer, I will recommend using Oracal vinyl sheets: attach them to paper, print the pattern with laser printer of course, and then transfer. You will get 100% toner transfer this way and won't have problems that usually come up if you use paper.
12:00 PM * djdelorie wonders if a layer of shellac and a laser engraver can make a better mask for that...
12:02 PM roycroft: you know
12:02 PM roycroft: i have a new ultrasonic heater arriving later this week
12:02 PM roycroft: it's fairly large, and heated
12:02 PM roycroft: i wonder if that would be good for etching
12:03 PM roycroft: i could place a plastic tub inside it containing the etchant
12:03 PM djdelorie: warm FeCl is much faster than cold FeCl, yes
12:03 PM roycroft: yes
12:03 PM roycroft: and the ultrasonic motion would move air bubbles away from the work
12:03 PM roycroft: the machine is 22L, so it can hold a fairly large piece
12:04 PM roycroft: the tank is 500x300x150mm
12:04 PM roycroft: and i can heat it to 80 degrees
12:05 PM LeelooMinai: One thing to consider is sodium persulfate too - that's what I was using and has advantage of being able to see through it, instead of having a mud-like water.
12:05 PM roycroft: that might work really well
12:05 PM djdelorie: be careful the FeCl doesn't etch your heater :-)
12:05 PM roycroft: that's why i would use a plastic tub inside it
12:05 PM djdelorie: and assume it will stain EVERYTHING it touches
12:05 PM roycroft: yes
12:06 PM * roycroft will have a box of nitrile gloves handy whenever working with the stuff
12:06 PM LeelooMinai: http://imgur.com/sLaRJ
12:06 PM roycroft: and i'll have a big bucket of rinse water to dip the pieces in before rinsing in the sink
12:06 PM djdelorie: and keep a sink nearby, with the water already running
12:06 PM djdelorie: (for you and your eyes, not the parts)
12:07 PM LeelooMinai: Sodium persulfate tank: http://imgur.com/8vIII
12:07 PM djdelorie: also eye protection and a junky shirt :-)
12:07 PM Deejay: protect the remaining eye
12:07 PM roycroft: i have waterproof aprons for cleaning brewing gear, etc.
12:07 PM roycroft: and i always wear eye protection in the shop
12:08 PM roycroft: i'd rather not etch my eyes, for sure
12:08 PM djdelorie: oh hey, I've done this before: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/brass/
12:09 PM djdelorie: my memory is not what it used to be, fortunately I record my life on the internet to remind myself of occasionally...
12:11 PM roycroft: if i can get results like this i'll be happy:
12:11 PM roycroft: http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/diy-brass-nameplates
12:12 PM roycroft: that badge had the background color applied using gun bluing
12:12 PM roycroft: i'm planning on using sealing wax
12:12 PM roycroft: which is a clockmaking method
12:12 PM roycroft: we'll see how that goes
12:13 PM roycroft: i probably need to etch a bit deeper for sealing wax than for gun bluing
12:13 PM roycroft: but i want to be able to add different colored backgrounds
12:13 PM roycroft: i have some red sealing wax, and some black is arriving
12:13 PM djdelorie: milling not an option? The wax will hide the milling marks...
12:13 PM roycroft: no milling
12:18 PM roycroft: another advantage to using the ultrasonic cleaner for doing the etching is that i should be able to control temperature better than just warming up the etchant
12:18 PM roycroft: so my results would be more consistent
12:29 PM JT-Shop: I need to cut a 7" diameter hole in a 10" x 3" alum cake pan... any suggestions?
12:31 PM SpeedEvil: A) nibbler
12:31 PM SpeedEvil: B) drill a hole, and jigsaw round roughly, finish with file
12:31 PM roycroft: mount it on a backing plate on your lathe and use a parting tool
12:32 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:32 PM SpeedEvil: Also, a 7" hole in a 3" wide cake pan kinda goes over the edges
12:32 PM phipli: JT-Shop: wooden guide and a decent router
12:32 PM DrippityDrops: exactly what I was thinking
12:32 PM DrippityDrops: how do you cut such big hole in such small surface?
12:32 PM roycroft: i'm assuming 10" square and 3" deep
12:33 PM JT-Shop: 10" round
12:33 PM DrippityDrops: thats a serious cake
12:33 PM phipli: DrippityDrops: most of the work is done for you
12:33 PM roycroft: or 10" round :)
12:33 PM phipli: you just throw the thing away and it is done
12:33 PM JT-Shop: I mean to cut them on the mill
12:33 PM DrippityDrops: how thick is it?
12:33 PM roycroft: it's a cake pan
12:33 PM roycroft: so probably 0.050" thick at most
12:34 PM phipli: put a piece of MDF on the bed, screw through the waste material and cut, with a good 4" tool clearance
12:34 PM JT-Shop: dunno it arrives tomorrow
12:35 PM DrippityDrops: roycroft: heres whats really gonna take the cake.. build an arm out from the spindle of mill 7" then attach a dremel to the arm and use it like a giant boring head and just make circle
12:35 PM JT-Shop: lol
12:35 PM DrippityDrops: im for reals
12:35 PM DrippityDrops: :)
12:35 PM SpeedEvil: DrippityDrops: no need to even turn on the dremel
12:35 PM roycroft: if you can figure out how to mount it on the lathe securely, that would actually be a good idea, imo
12:36 PM DrippityDrops: if you just put a single point cutter out there you could basicly scribe your way around it
12:36 PM DrippityDrops: but it would take awhile if you have alot to do
12:36 PM SpeedEvil: I have somewhere a pair of sturdy cutters, with curved blades
12:36 PM SpeedEvil: they're great for this sort of thing
12:36 PM roycroft: perhaps a segmented wooden ring that you can attach to a 4-jaw
12:36 PM roycroft: since it's a round pan
12:36 PM SpeedEvil: JT-Shop: to what tolerance?
12:37 PM JT-Shop: pretty smooth
12:37 PM JT-Shop: my 4 jaw will open up quite big
12:37 PM DrippityDrops: another idea though I consider dangerous, you could poke hole in center of pan and put bolt in it... then you put the cakepan/bolt into the mill spindle. then a single point cutter on the mill table
12:38 PM SpeedEvil: jigsaw to within 3mm or so, and then just tidy up with a die grinder
12:38 PM DrippityDrops: you may want to make a couple wooden disks to support the cakepan u know with bolt through and all
12:38 PM JT-Shop: I'm afraid a jigsaw would make the edge uneven
12:38 PM roycroft: if it has a non-stick surface it might be difficult to grip with a chuck without damaging it
12:38 PM SpeedEvil: JT-Shop: 'tidy up with a die grinder'
12:38 PM JT-Shop: just an alum pan
12:38 PM DrippityDrops: ^
12:38 PM JT-Shop: I'd rather not have to tidy it up
12:39 PM roycroft: most cake pans have a rim at the top
12:39 PM roycroft: the rim could be used as a clamping surface
12:40 PM roycroft: you could make a wooden insert to mount on a backing plate that fits the inside of the pan snugly
12:40 PM roycroft: that would position it and give you backing material for cutting
12:40 PM DrippityDrops: do you only need 1 pan done or do you have to do many?
12:40 PM roycroft: put the pan over the insert, clamp down on the rim in a few places, then cut the hole
12:42 PM DrippityDrops: you could try making something like this for your scribe and then just run it around the inside until it breaks through http://www.garrettwade.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/730x/0dc2d03fe217f8c83829496872af24a0/2/0/20S0107_11.jpg
12:42 PM phipli: JT-Shop: take it to be lasercut
12:42 PM roycroft: a parting tool would not be ideal, but some kind of very thin custom ground tool could do it
12:42 PM phipli: laser or broke - no need to be half arsed about it
12:42 PM JT-Shop: 1 to start then maybe a bunch
12:43 PM roycroft: sometimes one needs to make do with the tooling/machinery one has
12:43 PM JT-Shop: yup
12:43 PM DrippityDrops: if a bunch I would just get rotary table/cncmill and jig flush to wood disk. or lathe
12:43 PM roycroft: i doubt jt-shop will make enough cutting one cake pan to justify buying a laser cutter
12:44 PM JT-Shop: DrippityDrops: I have a machine shop full of CNC equipment
12:44 PM DrippityDrops: sometimes we dont need big reasons to buy laser cutters, lathes, mills, gauges
12:44 PM DrippityDrops: :P
12:44 PM JT-Shop: hmm, plasma cut it...
12:44 PM roycroft: but to me, making a large hole like that, especially in a part that is already round, is a lathe operation more than a mill operation
12:44 PM DrippityDrops: JT-Shop: oh lordy just chuck it up between two wooden disks and whip it out -D
12:45 PM DrippityDrops: after that just send them out do a big die company and have him punch out 5,000
12:45 PM DrippityDrops: im sure dies which are perfect circles are not uncommon
12:45 PM phipli: oh...
12:45 PM JT-Shop: I think the key is keeping the finished part clamped between some wood so it stays stable
12:45 PM roycroft: oh geeze
12:45 PM phipli: yeah - do you have a press JT-Shop ?
12:45 PM phipli: could turn a punch?
12:45 PM JT-Shop: 2 of them
12:45 PM phipli: if you're only doing a few
12:45 PM DrippityDrops: ha
12:45 PM DrippityDrops: do it to it
12:45 PM phipli: it doesn't need to last?
12:45 PM roycroft: sessions is going to testify before a senate committee in a few minutes, and my local npr affiliate are going to interrupt regular programming to broadcast that
12:46 PM * roycroft needs to find a new radio station for a while
12:46 PM DrippityDrops: you always wanted a 7" die anyhow
12:46 PM JT-Shop: the problem with a punch is you need a die block to fasten it to
12:46 PM phipli: make the punch OD match the inside of the dish so that alignment is easy
12:46 PM DrippityDrops: its just aluminum
12:46 PM roycroft: if i were making 50 of these i'd consider a custom punch/die
12:46 PM DrippityDrops: maybe a die would be not so bad
12:46 PM roycroft: for less than that the lathe setup makes more sense
12:46 PM phipli: JT-Shop: might get away with a wooden die block for this?
12:47 PM DrippityDrops: I would expect hardened ring of steel around a 7" circle would be a low cost die which may work
12:47 PM DrippityDrops: like a "ring" die if they even make those
12:47 PM roycroft: for aluminium you could use a set of dividers with a sharp point :)
12:47 PM roycroft: just scrape it round and round and round for a while
12:48 PM phipli: I'd still consider just screwing it down to a block of wood and sticking it under a CNC mill...
12:48 PM roycroft: you wouldn't even need to cut a hole in the center for a bolt
12:49 PM roycroft: just line it up and use a few self-tapping sheet metal screws to attach it to the wood
12:49 PM roycroft: no need for pilot holes even
12:49 PM roycroft: as long as you secure the outer ring so it doesn't go flying when the cut is completed
12:50 PM archivist: flying outer is a speciality :)
12:51 PM archivist: ex boss would take half an hour with a jewelers saw, I shoved blanks on the lathe and "parted" the outer off at full speed leaning to one side
01:08 PM _abc_: archivist: mini circular saws always use ball bearings? I assume older models used journal bearings?
01:40 PM IchGucksLive: Gn8
01:42 PM _abc_: Suggest a high speed capable belt like drive. Rubber belt works sort of but I would like something better?
01:42 PM LeelooMinai: Chain? :)
01:42 PM _abc_: Need not be toothed. Is there some new metal thing for this? Like a conformal chain as used in auto torque converters? I need high speed and low torque. Think 100-200W spindle drive
01:42 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: you don't want to use any usual chain at 15000rpm
01:43 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I guess "high speed" is relative.
01:43 PM _abc_: 15000 is way too high for all chains I know. There may be something new I don't know about.
01:45 PM _abc_: http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/2418/selecting-drive-system fun.
01:47 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: You are behind - read this 2 minutes ago:p
01:49 PM LeelooMinai: Seems to me it's mostly belt drives and gear drives.
01:49 PM djdelorie: is there some reliable method for figuring out max accel and speed for a stepper system?
01:50 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: I think you experiment and when it stalls you go lower.
01:50 PM _abc_: high speed engines seem to use hybrid synchronous belts. That's the plastic/rubber toothed thing you know.
01:50 PM _abc_: djdelorie: you can set up a program to auto detect the stall speed and then derate as a setting
01:50 PM djdelorie: I was hoping there would be something using the limit switches to detect lost steps, and a rule-of-thumb for derating
01:51 PM _abc_: djdelorie: the program is made to go to the limit slowly (always), then depart the limit with max accel (adjusted per trial), then decel slowly, return slowly, repeat
01:51 PM djdelorie: which "the program" ?
01:51 PM _abc_: This causes lost steps only during fast accel and you can find out when exactly this error starts occurring
01:51 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: If you want better feedback, you can just attach an encoder to the stepper - I did that few weeks ago just to see if I lose steps.
01:52 PM djdelorie: yeah, don't have one of those ;-)
01:52 PM _abc_: There is no the program, you can use a binary search, simply drive the axles manually in jog mode faster and faster until it stalls
01:52 PM LeelooMinai: They are cheap from China - like sub $20 for 400 step one.
01:52 PM _abc_: Then see what that setting is and derate say 30%
01:52 PM _abc_: djdelorie: are you the real djdelorie?
01:52 PM djdelorie: yes
01:52 PM LeelooMinai: o_O
01:52 PM _abc_: nice to meet you, nice software you made over the years. Thanks.
01:52 PM djdelorie: you're welcome
01:53 PM _abc_: So anyway you just jog the axis faster and faster until it loses steps
01:53 PM djdelorie: that doesn't help with accel, I'd have to restart for each test
01:53 PM _abc_: you see the lost steps by commading a G0x0y0 which causes it to go home and miss the 0 (you get an error)
01:53 PM LeelooMinai: So, djdelorie is who... Elon Musk or something? :)
01:53 PM _abc_: djdelorie: yes you use binary search. Start with some sane value, double it, then halve the diff etc
01:53 PM _abc_: You knwow the tricks.
01:54 PM _abc_: djdelorie: it only takes a few minutes.
01:54 PM _abc_: djdelorie: for open loop servos ALWAYS derate the 'losing steps here' by 30% or so.
01:54 PM _abc_: *the losing steps at this speed, speed
01:54 PM djdelorie: yeah... I'm just used to the auto-calibrate stuff the 3dprinting world has come up with. They have more stupid users, I guess ;-)
01:54 PM djdelorie: "open loop servos" ... shudder
01:54 PM _abc_: djdelorie: you usually can't auto calibrate a mill because the weight moving varies a lot
01:55 PM LeelooMinai: Well, stupid or not, they also seem to get nicer software:/
01:55 PM _abc_: djdelorie: so you get some real numbers and then derate. A lot. When you run heavy loads you derate more, deliberately
01:55 PM djdelorie: well yeah, but I'm starting with a new setup and no rough guess. I'll load up the Z though
01:55 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: I disagree, the current 3d softwares are a sort of glued together python jungle nobody really understands.
01:56 PM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: the Prusa firmware has an option to check belt tension too, using the limit switches.
01:56 PM _abc_: djdelorie: as a rough guess, NEMA 400 step motors don't like to go faster than about 400Hz.
01:56 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: I mean in terms of GUI - I saw pretty need interfaces.
01:56 PM LeelooMinai: need=neat
01:56 PM LeelooMinai: Also, more choices, etc.
01:56 PM _abc_: djdelorie: and accels are usually in the 1-9 m/s^2 area, you want lower 1st
01:57 PM _abc_: 9m/s^2 will NOT be nice, usually do not go over 3 or so. That's 0.3 g's lateral on the machine when you do it. Stay away from heavy parts and keep your hand on the red all stop knob
01:57 PM djdelorie: mine are NEMA 34 200/rot, 1204 oz-in
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: I somehow do not see a stepper working with that high acceleartion on normal DIY machine...
01:58 PM djdelorie: and not a plywood machine :-)
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: 1 m/s is already pretty high afaik
01:58 PM djdelorie: and my units are in/min2 IIRC
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: s^2
01:59 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: when you have 90 degree turns the machine needs to stop an axis to 0 speed during the turn, that needs accel. No accel = dog slow work
01:59 PM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: maybe. Inches, either way
02:00 PM djdelorie: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_3416.html
02:00 PM _abc_: djdelorie: 1m/s^2 ~= 39 in/s^2
02:01 PM djdelorie: heh, so I'm 1/39th of the way there! Progress!
02:01 PM _abc_: Yeah as LeelooMinai said, the heavyer the machine the lower the accel. You will probably not get to 39in/s^2 with what you showed
02:02 PM LeelooMinai: When you get there and do a rapid, your CNC will slide through the room and make a hole in the wall:)
02:02 PM _abc_: djdelorie: did you determine max speed to stall 1st?
02:02 PM djdelorie: not yet
02:02 PM _abc_: djdelorie: that's the 1st step. Get the max speed, then derate 30% or so, then get the accel
02:02 PM _abc_: You can use slow accel to get to speed.
02:02 PM * djdelorie wonders if my machine is big enough to get to max speed, with slow accel...
02:02 PM _abc_: just zero an axis, set accel to 1 or so, set jog speed highish and watch it go until it stalls
02:03 PM _abc_: then you adjust the top speed, zero, try again, etc
02:03 PM _abc_: Only after you have the top speed, start playing with the accel
02:03 PM djdelorie: or use G0/G1 so it will stop before it slams into the other end
02:03 PM _abc_: if you start from x=0 you usually have the full travel
02:03 PM djdelorie: that's only 24 inches on my machine
02:03 PM _abc_: but yes you can type commands like F100 G1X20
02:04 PM _abc_: F100 applies to that line only so you get the idea
02:04 PM djdelorie: yup
02:04 PM _abc_: So get the speed 1st where you stall, then derate this, say F70 is derated, then play with accel using speed set to 70
02:04 PM _abc_: Otherwise you will get confused by stall by accel vs stall by speed
02:05 PM djdelorie: so just using a dial indicator to watch for lost steps is "good enough" ?
02:05 PM djdelorie: is there a gcode command to set accel?
02:05 PM djdelorie: that would save time
02:05 PM _abc_: djdelorie: no, use the homing switch to detect this
02:05 PM djdelorie: ok, we're back to "which 'the program'" that uses the homing switch?
02:05 PM _abc_: djdelorie: F100 G1X20 then next line G0X0. If it hits the X0 switch before reaching 0 you lost steps.
02:05 PM _abc_: ^
02:05 PM _abc_: you are the program :)
02:06 PM djdelorie: oh right, accel away from the switch, slow return
02:06 PM _abc_: yep
02:06 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: Some time ago there was talk here about gear reducers - they have good prices for them if you choose a Chinese-like value brand. Could you use one of those?
02:06 PM _abc_: but 1st get the top speed without stall, and do not do this at any speed larger than 70% or so of the found speed
02:06 PM djdelorie: hmmm... does the in-linuxcnc dro tell you what it thinks the X of the limit switch is, so you can compare with the X0 it homed to?
02:06 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: no, I am making a tiny desk saw. 22mm cutting disks.
02:07 PM _abc_: I am going to use a rubber band but it will wear down fast.
02:07 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: Well... I don't know - so what that it's small. I guess gearboxes can be small too:)
02:07 PM _abc_: djdelorie: if you set it up so, yes. Usually there is an offset after the X0 switch to the real 0, so it won't run into the switch all the time
02:08 PM _abc_: this offset is in the machine setup file. You can edit it to be 0, then the 0 is the switch tripped position
02:08 PM djdelorie: mine is home+limit, so it's at zero
02:08 PM _abc_: That gives an as reliable as you get zero sense
02:09 PM _abc_: You also set the axis to start at 0 or -0.01 or so, so you cannot go 'back' - avoid crashing into the end.
02:09 PM _abc_: So when you come to home pos. with lost steps the machine will error stop.
02:09 PM djdelorie: or use a dial indicator at X1 :-)
02:09 PM _abc_: The dial indicator if you have it can be used but I find it to be a pain when the machine is not yet ready and working
02:09 PM djdelorie: oh, it's running. I'm just tuning it now.
02:10 PM _abc_: ok
02:10 PM djdelorie: when it had servos in it I could move them pretty quickly; but with these steppers I'm starting slow because I know they'll stall if I push them too fast
02:10 PM djdelorie: (tested them on the bench first :)
02:11 PM djdelorie: but then again, servos don't lose steps :-)
02:11 PM _abc_: yeah so bench test will be a very good start for this.
02:11 PM _abc_: Servos do lose steps when loaded
02:11 PM djdelorie: mine don't
02:11 PM _abc_: There will be an error mode, depending on programming.
02:11 PM djdelorie: well yeah, they may fall behind, but the steps are never "lost" - it catches up later.
02:12 PM _abc_: That's not a good idea in coordinated movement...
02:12 PM djdelorie: true, but better than lost steps
02:12 PM djdelorie: in my case, the motion was nearly always limited by the cutter's needs, not the servo's limits
02:13 PM djdelorie: and the inherent limits of a machine made of wood :-)
02:13 PM _abc_: Good.
02:13 PM _abc_: If it self disassembles you can build another :)
02:14 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: do you see queries?
02:14 PM djdelorie: building a better one was always one of the long-term goals, but I'd rather do it on my schedule, not its
02:17 PM _abc_: djdelorie: you realize that a decent aluminum built engraver from China is ~$500 to 800 now, right?
02:18 PM djdelorie: and a plywood one from scraps I had on hand was $0
02:18 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I wonder if $24 for 100 extra thick nitrile gloves for machinist-type work is worth it...
02:19 PM LeelooMinai: Somewthing like this: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01CO9RKH0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
02:19 PM LeelooMinai: Anyone used anything similar?
02:19 PM _abc_: djdelorie: in how many hours?
02:20 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: use gardening gloves or garage gloves
02:20 PM djdelorie: a weekend for the base machine, many months to design, program, and debug the servo drivers
02:20 PM djdelorie: but I build tools because I like building tools :-)
02:20 PM _abc_: :) You wrote your servo drivers on the occasion too? :)
02:20 PM _abc_: That is a legit explanation.
02:20 PM djdelorie: and designed the pcbs
02:20 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: Those are teribble in terms of dexterity though - I eant something that will be good for precision work.
02:20 PM _abc_: I wonder why this channel is to quiet.
02:21 PM djdelorie: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
02:21 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: thick and precision, pick any one
02:21 PM LeelooMinai: They say those are 6mil, and I think normal ones are 3mil
02:21 PM roycroft: quiet?
02:21 PM djdelorie: but a month or two back I burned out one of the drivers, and the repair was not successful, so time to redesign them. Meanwhile, steppers.
02:21 PM _abc_: djdelorie: pretty neat pcb etc. Surely not your beginner project.
02:21 PM roycroft: it's a fairly active channel, even when the trolls are on /gnore
02:21 PM roycroft: /ignore
02:21 PM djdelorie: no, I'm an old hat at electronics. My first job (decades ago) I designed PC motherboards.
02:22 PM _abc_: roycroft: 3 people are talking eh.
02:22 PM _abc_: ok
02:22 PM djdelorie: spent the last 18 years porting gcc et al to various embedded platforms
02:22 PM _abc_: What caused the explodey action on the driver?
02:22 PM djdelorie: the only part that's new to me is the "cnc" part :-)
02:23 PM djdelorie: fast deceleration + loose connection to the power supply = instant voltage spike from 120V to 600V+
02:23 PM djdelorie: I think
02:23 PM _abc_: Erm, I don't see a braking resistor connection. Is that by design?
02:23 PM djdelorie: yeah, the power supply handles it. Well, should have
02:24 PM _abc_: does it? Just capacitors? Charging?
02:24 PM djdelorie: the system is rated for up to 350V, and the servos 160V, but I only run it at 120V
02:24 PM * _abc_ always uses an active clamp on the supply
02:24 PM djdelorie: big overspec'd cap bank, yes.
02:24 PM _abc_: *on the dc bus
02:24 PM djdelorie: I was going to use one of my prototype driver boards as a smart load dump
02:24 PM djdelorie: one dump for three driver boards
02:25 PM djdelorie: but mostly regenerative
02:25 PM _abc_: I see.
02:25 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: Dump the energy to a battery charger:)
02:25 PM _abc_: I cringe whenever I see an universal drive with no brake resistor.
02:26 PM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: if I need to dump power, the charger is already full :-)
02:26 PM djdelorie: and it wasn't a problem until I finally got the right timing pulleys for the servos and was able to start increasing the speed/accel. The hard stop finally knocked the wire loose, I think
02:26 PM LeelooMinai: Domeone here was prising those new hibrid stepper motors - with encoder and feedback inside.
02:27 PM LeelooMinai: hybrid*
02:27 PM djdelorie: I contemplated going with clearpaths, but the cost was too high for a temporary fix
02:27 PM LeelooMinai: They seem to be a new "trend"
02:27 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: There are Chinese ones too - pretty cheap.
02:27 PM LeelooMinai: Well, comparable to normal stepper prices from China.
02:29 PM LeelooMinai: I think it was Crom'A'Lot
02:29 PM djdelorie: you mean like http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-phase-NEMA34-12NM-Hybrid-Stepper-Servo-Closed-Loop-Motor-Drive-Kit-CNC-Stepper-/112333425559 ?
02:29 PM LeelooMinai: Right
02:30 PM djdelorie: sigh, that would have made more sense for me than steppers...
02:31 PM djdelorie: maybe :-)
02:31 PM LeelooMinai: From what I read it's a good compromise - you get better speeds and torque
02:31 PM LeelooMinai: I assume they "stole" the idea from Clearpath.
02:32 PM LeelooMinai: Or they both stole it from someone else - who knows:)
02:32 PM LeelooMinai: I liked the Clearpath demo video - it was pretty well done and impressive.
02:35 PM _abc_: There's a serious burnt electrics smell here. I wonder if I should fill a bucket and prepare for bad things.
02:35 PM _abc_: Don't see any reason for it.
02:36 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: As long as internet works, who cares in the house is on fire:)
02:36 PM LeelooMinai: if*
02:37 PM djdelorie: depends on what you plan on filling the bucket with. You should have a fire extinguisher handy too, though.
02:37 PM LeelooMinai: I have a fire extinguisher in my bedroom/allroom - you never know if your CNC will go on fire...
02:38 PM LeelooMinai: Also, CO alarm and fire alarm is a good idea to have.
02:39 PM LeelooMinai: I saw a video on youtube once where a guy forgot to turn off his soldering iron and barely saved his desk/room, only because he had a remote camera there and saw when the fire started.
02:40 PM _abc_: 458!
02:40 PM jdh: better thsn a laser
02:40 PM sync: LeelooMinai: if anything clearpath stole from berger lahr
02:40 PM _abc_: I saw things melted by a concave shaving mirror when the sun transited the window...
02:41 PM LeelooMinai: sync: One can always count on you providing some hard-core industry producer:)
02:41 PM _abc_: http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_warningassunstunscelebrity.asp
02:41 PM LeelooMinai: sync: You are probably hiding as one of those crazy YouTube guys, like ROBRENZ or the oxtools guy:p
02:41 PM _abc_: http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/warning-after-sunlight-reflecting-off-a-mirror-caused-fire-in-rolleston/story-30220679-detail/story.html etc
02:42 PM _abc_: LeelooMinai: what do you use your mill for, usually?
02:42 PM LeelooMinai: _abc_: I use it to obsess on it itself so far - just took it apart and leerning how to use MIG welder, because I did not like the stand:p
02:44 PM LeelooMinai: But well, aluminum will be probably the main material to be used by me.
02:44 PM _abc_: aiee. Did you ever mill Al?
02:44 PM _abc_: Al can be mean like that. Really mean
02:44 PM sync: http://www.abi.nl/assets/uploads/Products/aandrijvingen/Servo%20aandrijvingen/EC%20borstelloos/Berger%20Lahr%20(IcIA)/icla_zijaanzicht.jpg those bois LeelooMinai
02:44 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I managed to make some experiments, yes - milled one face of an aluminum cube even:)
02:45 PM LeelooMinai: And some pocket holes, etc. Was not bad.
02:45 PM _abc_: ok
02:45 PM LeelooMinai: But, yak shaving syndrom is strong with me.
02:46 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Right... Weird that they did not make zillion patents for it, so the rest of the world cannot use it for next few decades.
02:46 PM sync: they probably did
02:47 PM sync: but actually defending them is hard
02:47 PM sync: and they probably don't care
03:00 PM SpeedEvil: I do wish patents were more rational. You should never be able to get a patent on something where it would take less time than 'number of patents in an invention' * 'time to do an exhaustive patent search'
03:00 PM SpeedEvil: to develop it using a usually skilled engineer in the field
03:00 PM _abc_: Did you see the EU wide patent problem just now?
03:01 PM _abc_: Germany blocked the EU wide new patent law... just when everyone else agreed.
03:01 PM SpeedEvil: I haven't been following that.
03:01 PM _abc_: SpeedEvil: I have problems like people coming to have a simple design, then they want to patent my design... in their name... fun.
03:03 PM kyle___: LeelooMinai, what kind of mill do you have?
03:03 PM _abc_: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/13/germany_halts_european_unitary_patent/
03:04 PM LeelooMinai: kyle: A bit old pic, but DIY one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/29276743343/in/dateposted-public/
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: don't you get that you don't matter?
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: your opinion on patent law is not important to those that run the system
03:14 PM _abc_: CaptHindsight: hush. You should believe in democracy, i.e., be a proud part of the majority who did not elect the powers in power.
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: and never trust the Russians!
03:15 PM LeelooMinai: I just watched the creepy US cabinet meeting - that was beyond pathetic:/
03:17 PM * _abc_ just read about a minor scandal in a little town here, where the socialists "won" the elections based on a voter turnout around 25%, they got 10% and won. You do the math. Slowly becoming ungovernable? 9 out of 10 people are not infavor of the elected local government.
03:17 PM _abc_: Maybe not so slowly becoming.
03:20 PM SpeedEvil: _abc_: not voting in favour of, is not quite the same as not in favour of
03:20 PM _abc_: SpeedEvil: okay, them 75% are anarchists. You do the math.
03:20 PM SpeedEvil: you can't do the math without more input.
03:21 PM _abc_: I see this every day, it's not a good feeling in a country which still has unsolved murders by politicians and police/army against crowds from 1989 and 1990
03:21 PM SpeedEvil: It could be that precisely 75% of the remainder are happy with the expected outcome, and would vote if the outcome was not predicted to be as it was.
03:21 PM _abc_: ^ this is the input you need. Turns ugly before turning better, and it was recent and it is a hot matter.
03:22 PM _abc_: SpeedEvil: not the case. But what is the case is, 60+% of the economy is running underground.
03:22 PM _abc_: And increasing.
03:22 PM SpeedEvil: Yes, I wasn't stating anything other than the pure vote math quesiton.
03:24 PM _abc_: Anyway this is not ##politics. I am done.
03:24 PM _abc_: Time to zz a bit.
03:29 PM SpeedEvil: All political problems are solved by the right depth of cut.
03:38 PM kyle___: all hail the hypnotoad
03:55 PM roycroft: what about the problem of too life vs. productivity?
03:55 PM roycroft: tool
03:55 PM Phiplii: the scapegoat always bounces back, ready to be blamed every time.
03:55 PM Phiplii: bloody scapegoat
03:56 PM roycroft: sometimes the scapegoat turns out to be a phoenix
03:56 PM Phiplii: scaphoenix?
03:57 PM Phiplii: to be fair, goats always come out on top.
03:57 PM Phiplii: Anyone who has owned some will tell you.
03:58 PM JT-Shop: what's the difference between a tcp client and a udp client
03:58 PM Phiplii: udp has less error checking
03:58 PM roycroft: one uses tcp and the other uses udp :)
03:59 PM Phiplii: udp = faster but less reliable
03:59 PM JT-Shop: phipli: what are you using to get the NTP?
03:59 PM roycroft: udp is a connectionless, best effort protocol - it just spews data at the remote ip/port and hopes for the best
03:59 PM Phiplii: good for something like reporting high sample rate readings
03:59 PM Phiplii: Jt : udp
03:59 PM roycroft: tcp establishes a connection with the remote site and ensures that the data arrive at the remote site, or reports back that it cannot do so
04:00 PM Phiplii: I try once / day and dont care if I don't get an answer
04:00 PM Phiplii: if I don't, I keep what I have
04:00 PM * roycroft uses udp for ntp
04:01 PM Phiplii: in pub
04:01 PM roycroft: i try more than once/day though - i run an ntpd daemon
04:01 PM Phiplii: will send code when home
04:01 PM roycroft: and it tries quite often
04:01 PM JT-Shop: ok thanks
04:01 PM Phiplii: roycroft : chicken door
04:01 PM Phiplii: can handle a couple of.seconds out on the time
04:02 PM roycroft: a couple seconds of desync can cause many protocols to fail
04:02 PM roycroft: i like to stay within a few milliseconds on my network
04:02 PM roycroft: but if all i were doing was controlling a chicken door i would not much care
04:02 PM Phiplii: the chickens lack precision internal timing
04:02 PM JT-Shop: I like my chicken door to open +- 5 minutes
04:03 PM roycroft: they are precise enough
04:04 PM Phiplii: JT-Shop : Mine is basically up to 59 seconds slow by design
04:04 PM Phiplii: I floor the minutes an use minutes as the minimum resolution of time
04:05 PM Crom: changing axles... passenger side is done... darn C clip holding in drivers side it being a right pain
04:05 PM Phiplii: so if it is 59 seconds past the minute when I check the time, it still drops back to the last minute
04:06 PM Phiplii: It wouldn't take much to make it better... but it doesn't seem... worth it
04:07 PM Phiplii: I might make it ad 30 seconds to the raw seconds time, so it would be technically "closest minute"
04:07 PM Phiplii: *add
04:07 PM Phiplii: (beer typing)
04:11 PM myself: Of course there's a channel for that. :) I don't even /list anymore, I just /join and guess the name.
04:12 PM Phiplii: /beeeer?
04:13 PM myself: This isn't about linuxCNC the software, but I figure y'all probably have as much experience as anyone with DIY machines and spindle motors. I'm finding that the DeWalt DW611 electrically isolates its tool from its frame, which actually makes it really awkward to probe using the tool's conductivity. Most folks attach an alligator clip to the tool before doing the probe cycle.
04:13 PM Phiplii: I attach the clip to the tool yes
04:13 PM Phiplii: and either solder the other end...
04:14 PM XXCoder: thats normal good safety, as splash on tool when its on hand might be killer.
04:14 PM Phiplii: or place a steel rule with a clip on it, under a weight, on the work
04:14 PM myself: I want to re-probe periodically in the middle of a job (and alarm on a probe fail) as a poor man's broken-tool detection, so I can't be sticking an alligator clip onto the thing every time. So my question is this: Are there other spindle motors which make it easy to electrically connect to the shaft/collet/tool because those things are electrically connected to the motor's mount?
04:14 PM Phiplii: to get the other side
04:15 PM XXCoder: myself: theres few ways to do it besides conductive
04:15 PM XXCoder: you could use current setup for tool length
04:15 PM djdelorie: myself: you could just put a button somewhere, and press it with the tool. Or an opto interrupter
04:15 PM XXCoder: and use laser setup for "broken tool sensor"
04:16 PM Phiplii: pay an urchin to watch
04:16 PM myself: the buttons I've tried have terrible repeatability, like +- 50 thou or worse, from one push to the next.
04:16 PM myself: Optical is an interesting idea, but I might need wipers or air-blow to keep chips off the windows.
04:16 PM djdelorie: buy better buttons?
04:16 PM djdelorie: but if you're only checking for breakage, 50 thou should be OK
04:17 PM XXCoder: yeah. length detect and breakage is bit different
04:17 PM myself: 20 thou off the end of an engraving tip ruins the job :/
04:17 PM myself: and I've had 'em chip off just a little bit. My whole cut depth is 20 thou.
04:17 PM XXCoder: ah
04:17 PM Phiplii: an electrical brush/contact bent next to the tool, slightly higher?
04:17 PM myself: Electrically really works best. So far, I've got a brush next to the collet and that's working, but:
04:17 PM XXCoder: yeah phi was about to say that
04:18 PM Phiplii: would work
04:18 PM XXCoder: or maybe a wire routed though inside tool and connected to something that provides electric contact to tool
04:18 PM Phiplii: if the work contours weren't too extreme
04:18 PM djdelorie: or the same type of switch/sensor they use in touch probes, but where the tool can touch it. Although, at 20 thou... laser :-)
04:18 PM myself: I want to do both probing to check the tool length, and to set the part offset. Checking the tool length is easy, I can G0 way out to the corner of the machine, and have my brush mounted there.
04:19 PM myself: But checking the part offset, I need the cutter to be over the part, and I can't have a brush positioned there because the collet will tear it up when the spindle turns on.
04:19 PM XXCoder: (by tool I mean dewalt)
04:20 PM myself: Wire through the inside of the dewalt is sounding like my best bet, OR, replace the dewalt with a better spindle (it's a huge beast for high-speed engraving anyway) that also has the electrical properties I need
04:20 PM JT-Shop: phipli: just saw your month code and it works perfect thanks
04:20 PM XXCoder: myself: im sure theres some mount point inside dewalt you can bolt wire to that is also conductive all way tpo tool attached to dewalt
04:20 PM myself: Soooo, I figured I'd ask here if anyone knew that electrical detail of various other spindles :) I'm looking at the $60 cheapies on ebay and wondering. I could jsut buy one an try.
04:20 PM djdelorie: the first time you try a diamond engraving tip, this will all go out the window...
04:20 PM myself: XXCoder: Yeah, I'm gonna tear one apart and try to find out. That voids the warranty which I was trying to avoid, but.... oh well. :)
04:21 PM Phiplii: JT-Shop : good good
04:21 PM XXCoder: yeah they have 60 hours runtime I think before you need new bushings?
04:21 PM myself: Hah! Diamond is thermally conductive but not electrically. Hmm.
04:21 PM myself: Piezo load cells in the mount somewhere? Hmm!
04:22 PM myself: I'm gonna over-engineer this thing.
04:22 PM djdelorie: or a separate retractable z-probe, like some 3d printers use
04:22 PM djdelorie: then you add a touch probe button on the side to calibrate that vs your tool
04:22 PM XXCoder: lol some of em is just bad
04:22 PM XXCoder: lile bt touch
04:22 PM myself: Hm. Then I need math. Or could I do that with WCS?
04:23 PM XXCoder: nearly everyone who had one had it die
04:23 PM djdelorie: I was thinking the ones with an rc servo that moves a switch/sensor/contact into position
04:23 PM XXCoder: in one case, it caused machine to smash into bed
04:23 PM XXCoder: whatsswitch repeatability
04:23 PM djdelorie: heh, overengineering isn't my department today. I'm just the idea man :-)
04:24 PM myself: haha, yeah, I'm using very conservative G38.2 numbers so I get an error if the touch doesn't happen pretty close to where I expect.
04:24 PM djdelorie: using a laser to measure the tool and/or probe lets you have a big margin of error, and no touching to break things
04:24 PM myself: Goal here is to let 'er run overnight making 10-15 parts at a batch, but checking for tool breakage after each one, so if the tip went kablooey, I only have the one ruined part.
04:25 PM djdelorie: you can then test the probe on a "known" location, then go probe your part
04:25 PM myself: Laser would be awesome. Are there example setups I could look at?
04:25 PM myself: "cnc laser" returns engravers and cutters, not so much probe setups..
04:25 PM djdelorie: example: http://www.mh-inprocess.com/mh-Laser-Tool-Setters_573.htm#.WUBROnXLC0o
04:26 PM djdelorie: "laser tool height probe"
04:26 PM myself: Good lord that's expensive.
04:26 PM Phiplii: use a quick change head with two of the same tool and cut the job twice
04:26 PM djdelorie: I said "example" not "affordable" :-)
04:26 PM myself: Yup yup :)
04:26 PM myself: All helpful ideas, thank you! AFK for a bit.
04:28 PM Phiplii: or just dial back 15%, chill and don't worry
04:28 PM Phiplii: I'd go with thelast one
04:29 PM XXCoder: phip problem is engraving is quite sensive to tool length setting
04:29 PM XXCoder: that makes engraving inocel disks really annoying
04:30 PM SpeedEvil: I wonder about doing it sideways.
04:30 PM SpeedEvil: Don't monitor tool length, monitor tool lateral force
04:30 PM Phiplii: 15% speed
04:31 PM Phiplii: what SpeedEvil said
04:31 PM XXCoder: Phiplii: its already way too long and quite slow lol
04:31 PM Phiplii: could even monitor it on the spindle mount
04:31 PM XXCoder: it also eats tool, tend to replace tool each 30 to 40
04:32 PM XXCoder: orders tend to be in hundreds lol
04:32 PM XXCoder: well hopes he solves the tool length thing
04:32 PM Phiplii: I made a brass engraving for a workmate... tool was blunt by the end
04:32 PM Phiplii: sodding brass
04:33 PM Phiplii: probably picked the wrong material
04:34 PM XXCoder: or erong tool lol
04:35 PM Phiplii: :)
04:35 PM Phiplii: fine for PCBs
04:35 PM Phiplii: thought it would be fine for brass too
04:35 PM XXCoder: time to go laters
04:37 PM Deejay: gn8
05:15 PM phipli: and home
05:44 PM cbjamo: Has anyome here used Hitachi NE-S1 inverters?
05:48 PM sync: if they are anything like the omron mx2, they are fine
05:48 PM sync: probably the same drive internally
05:49 PM TurBoss: I have a omron inverter 0.5kw can I drive a monophase 0.5 spindle ? i think no
05:50 PM cbjamo: I already have one, I'm having some difficulty programming it.
05:50 PM sync: TurBoss: iirc it can output a fixed frequency
05:51 PM cbjamo: It's thermal-faulting when the drive and spindle both are cool.
05:52 PM cbjamo: So I'm looking for advice on how to fix that, and also how to signal linuxcnc box to stop the machine on a fault.
05:53 PM TurBoss: cbjamo: how are you driving it and what is your interface board? pwm analog rs485 ?
05:53 PM TurBoss: 0-10?
05:56 PM cbjamo: TurBoss: Right now it's running standalone with the NES1-OP
05:56 PM TurBoss: and leds are blinking?
05:56 PM TurBoss: with a error?
05:57 PM cbjamo: Yes
05:57 PM cbjamo: Let me go error it so I can get you some more info.
05:58 PM TurBoss: Ok i have the spanish docs here
05:58 PM TurBoss: http://www.hitachi-america.us/supportingdocs/forbus/inverters/Support/NE-S1%20manual%20NT341BX%20.pdf <-- english here
05:59 PM cbjamo: I've got the docs, but I honestly don't know where to start.
05:59 PM TurBoss: section 7
05:59 PM TurBoss: error codes
06:09 PM cbjamo: Ok, I'm running the spindle with no load, waiting for it to erorr out.
06:09 PM cbjamo: In the meantime, how would I set it up to use rs485 with linuxcnc?
06:11 PM TurBoss: it has?
06:11 PM TurBoss: 485?
06:11 PM TurBoss: seems yes
06:11 PM cbjamo: Yeah, it does.
06:11 PM TurBoss: you need to search for an existing comp or write your own
06:12 PM TurBoss: the huangyang vfd has a comp
06:12 PM TurBoss: can be taken to see how it works
06:12 PM cbjamo: Can you link me to that?
06:12 PM TurBoss: sek
06:16 PM TurBoss: cbjamo : https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/tree/af15a4d90e1d51d5309db65fe1c9511e486df411/src/hal/user_comps/huanyang-vfd
06:16 PM cbjamo: Thanks
06:16 PM TurBoss: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/tree/master/src/hal/user_comps/huanyang-vfd
06:17 PM TurBoss: this one is more recent
06:17 PM TurBoss: it uses 485
06:17 PM TurBoss: and the huanyang commands
06:17 PM TurBoss: so you need to adapt it to your commands
06:17 PM TurBoss: specified in docs
06:19 PM TurBoss: not an easy task
06:19 PM TurBoss: :D
06:19 PM TurBoss: at least for me
06:19 PM phipli: nn folks
06:19 PM cbjamo: Well, I'll give it a shot.
06:19 PM TurBoss: :)
06:20 PM TurBoss: you can write a comp in python too
06:20 PM cbjamo: It's still running fine, which is good, but odd. It has failed in 5-10 mins in the past.
06:20 PM cbjamo: I'm pretty comfortable with c, so I'll probably just adapt the one you linked.
06:20 PM TurBoss: fine!
06:20 PM TurBoss: don't forget to share your improvements
06:20 PM TurBoss: :)
06:21 PM TurBoss: if you want to ofcourse
06:21 PM cbjamo: I will, these inverters seem like they're good quality, and aren't too expensive, I think ours was ~250usd.
06:22 PM TurBoss: hmmm very good price
06:22 PM TurBoss: how many kW?
06:27 PM cbjamo: Ok, I found the listing. HITACHI NES1-015SB, 2 HP, 230 VAC, 1 PHASE INPUT
06:27 PM cbjamo: It was 210usd
06:27 PM TurBoss: nice
06:27 PM cbjamo: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HITACHI-NES1-015SB-2-HP-230-VAC-1-PHASE-INPUT-VFD-With-OPERATOR-/142388233766
06:28 PM cbjamo: Obviously a US listing, not sure how useful that would be to those outside the US.
06:31 PM TurBoss: so its working fine ?=
06:31 PM TurBoss: will fail when not looking
06:31 PM TurBoss: :D
06:46 PM cbjamo: Yeah, still running fine. The spindle is a little warm at the lowwer bearing, but not dangeously so.
06:47 PM cbjamo: Nothing else has been running, so I'm starting to wonder if that has something to do with it.
06:47 PM cbjamo: The inverter is still completely cool.
06:52 PM sync: maybe someone has set some strange stuff in the drive
06:53 PM sync: or did you connect a temp sensor?
06:54 PM cbjamo: When I got it, it was sealed, and I haven't done anything to change it from stock. It does not have a temp sensor on the spindle.
06:58 PM sync: do a factory reset
07:00 PM cbjamo: I'll try that. Can anyone reccomend a rs485 adaptor?
07:14 PM TurBoss: i recomend you to go rs232 to 485 not usb
07:14 PM TurBoss: but usb is fine too
07:15 PM TurBoss: http://www.ebay.es/itm/RS232-to-RS485-Two-Way-Converter-/282291321228?hash=item41b9dfb98c:g:a7oAAOSwSzdXDBa2
07:15 PM TurBoss: something like this
07:16 PM TurBoss: cjbamo : http://www.ebay.es/itm/DSub-D-Sub-de-9-pines-RS-232-Female-to-RS-485-Adaptador-Convertidor-BC-/172120705793?hash=item2813318b01:g:pDQAAOSwZ8ZW15tJ
07:17 PM TurBoss: oops cbjamo :D
07:17 PM TurBoss: from .com http://www.ebay.com/itm/RS-232-RS232-to-RS-485-RS485-Interface-Serial-Adapter-Converter-NEW-/201414901720?hash=item2ee5437fd8:g:YyoAAOSw-vlViWyp
07:18 PM TurBoss: a+ a- b+ b.
07:18 PM TurBoss: -
07:22 PM TurBoss: sems tha i'm wrong
07:22 PM TurBoss: just + /-
07:22 PM TurBoss: and the 120ohm terminator resistor
07:23 PM TurBoss: no i'm ok rs485 can have 4 wires
07:25 PM cbjamo: I won't have any trouble with the 232 to 485 adaptors? Isn't 485 faster?
07:26 PM TurBoss: is a bus
07:26 PM TurBoss: devices can be connected in chain
07:26 PM TurBoss: not like 232 that is point to pont
07:26 PM TurBoss: *point
07:27 PM TurBoss: ok there is a switch to enable the terminator resistor in the vfd
07:27 PM TurBoss: SW4 on page 9
07:27 PM cbjamo: Cool, one less thing to worry about getting the right part.
07:28 PM TurBoss: I'm searching for the pinout of the connector on the vfd
07:29 PM TurBoss: can't find
07:30 PM TurBoss: but if you buy one adapter that has a+ a- /b+ b- you are fine
07:30 PM TurBoss: not just + / -
07:32 PM cbjamo: Cool, I just did that.
07:32 PM TurBoss: cbjamo does your VFD have a rj45 socket?
07:32 PM TurBoss: :D
07:32 PM cbjamo: Thanks for the advice.
07:32 PM cbjamo: Yeah, it's an rj45 connector.
07:32 PM TurBoss: ok but can't find the pinout
07:32 PM TurBoss: :D
07:34 PM cbjamo: Yeah, I'm looking for it now as well...
07:34 PM TurBoss: should be standart because nothing on the docs says how to wire
07:34 PM TurBoss: :D
07:35 PM TurBoss: checking rj45 rs485
07:36 PM TurBoss: http://wiki.controlmicrosystems.com/download/attachments/13213414/RJ45_RS485.JPG?version=1&modificationDate=1232555642567
07:36 PM TurBoss: could be this
07:37 PM TurBoss: there is half and full duplex
07:37 PM cbjamo: hmm,
07:37 PM TurBoss: where +/- is half and tx+/- rx+/- is full
07:38 PM cbjamo: I guess we can always just try stuff. It shouldn't damage anything.
07:38 PM TurBoss: :)
07:38 PM TurBoss: good thing of 485 is that you can put 1200m of cable :D
07:39 PM cbjamo: That is cool, but definately not nessicary here.
07:39 PM cbjamo: It's about a 3ft run from the control pc to the vfd.
07:39 PM TurBoss: http://opengear.com/images/sd4001-pinout.png
07:39 PM cbjamo: Do you know if that pinout is the one Mesa uses?
07:40 PM TurBoss: mesa uses 422
07:40 PM TurBoss: the vfd can 422 too
07:40 PM TurBoss: i think...
07:40 PM cbjamo: I thought it did both/either
07:40 PM cbjamo: The vfd can do 422, yes.
07:40 PM TurBoss: do you have a mesa 7i76/7?
07:40 PM cbjamo: I wish
07:40 PM TurBoss: ah me too
07:40 PM TurBoss: ;:D
07:41 PM cbjamo: I'm just using the paraport on an old computer I had laying around.
07:41 PM TurBoss: its fine
07:41 PM TurBoss: here works fine
07:41 PM cbjamo: It latency is good though, and I don't need it to do anything but run linuxcnc.
07:41 PM TurBoss: a old itx board gives me 7400 ns
07:41 PM TurBoss: :D
07:42 PM TurBoss: and a P4 gives me 15k ns
07:42 PM cbjamo: My desktop is like 80k+
07:43 PM TurBoss: normal
07:43 PM TurBoss: :D
08:04 PM cbjamo: Thanks for all the help TurBoss
08:09 PM TurBoss: you are welcome
08:09 PM TurBoss: gn8
10:33 PM Crom: Driverside axle did want to release. The C clip ring wouldn't go down. I ended up using 1/32" welding rod between the splines to hold the C clip into the collapst position. only took 6 hours for the drivers side,, 1995 Honda Odyssey
10:34 PM Crom: s/did want/didn't want/