#linuxcnc Logs
May 30 2017
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:00 AM Crom: you'd only need one 5c collet.. a 3/4" inch... you could hold tts stuff, anything you wanted to mount on it just needs a 3/4 shaft
12:04 AM CaptHindsight: picked up the clausing lathe 5914 today, the ways are near brand new
12:06 AM Crom: 12x36?
12:06 AM CaptHindsight: yeah with variable speed
12:09 AM CaptHindsight: has two cans of Official Clausing way lube and spindle oil in the drawers
12:09 AM CaptHindsight: looks like it sat for years
12:09 AM Crom: Nice L00 nose
12:16 AM CaptHindsight: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/181/3407.pdf manual with exploded parts views and lists
12:16 AM Crom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htGgY_HGLpE
12:16 AM Crom: watching that
12:18 AM CaptHindsight: I sold all my old chinaco encos and emcos
12:18 AM CaptHindsight: I'm building a high precision lathe with linear servos and an air bearing spindle
12:52 AM Crom: nice...
12:52 AM Crom: Wish I could find some one to help me repour my plain bearings on my sheldon
12:55 AM archivist: if shell bearings turn from solid
12:58 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm, he seems really excited about those ClearPath servos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TzNQnSKO_8
12:59 AM Crom: cheapest is $257... you can get 3nm JMC-motor.com for $120ish
12:59 AM Crom: clearpath run at 75volts... jmc-motors 24v to 50v 36v nominal...
01:01 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: You mean real servos or one of those close-loop stepper things?
01:01 AM Crom: clear path's are steppers... closed loops
01:02 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: o_O
01:03 AM LeelooMinai: That did not seem as a stepper to me - at least in that video.,
01:04 AM Crom: yes the higher voltage lets them run faster RPM's... I'm loving my JMC-motor iHSS56-36-20's
01:05 AM Crom: mine don't sound like steppers either
01:10 AM LeelooMinai: I wonder if one could use it as a spindle:)
01:13 AM LeelooMinai: lol - I am watching ClearPath demo video - it's pretty entertaining
01:13 AM LeelooMinai: That acrilic rod throught rotating disk part was pretty awsome
01:13 AM IchGucksLive: good morning from Germany
01:15 AM IchGucksLive: Crom: did you consider stepper-online
01:15 AM archivist: before going to any pseudo step/dir "servo" think about wanting feedback to linuxcnc so you get real servo performance
01:16 AM IchGucksLive: the servos getting cheeper and cheeper
01:16 AM LeelooMinai: It seems that their have firmware inside those ClearPath motors to do "magic" - I presume they take over the part that linuxcnc would do.
01:17 AM LeelooMinai: they*
01:19 AM LeelooMinai: Whoever made their demo video should get some award for it imo though:)
01:19 AM Crom: It's the PID loop... the JMC-mot.com drives have an alarm pin and a PED pin (ped goes high on station(where it's commanded to be))
01:20 AM archivist: you then have no feedback so linuxcnc cannot calculate a proper ferror
01:20 AM Crom: I haven't played with the serial port yet
01:20 AM archivist: so then you have lost accuracy
01:22 AM IchGucksLive: im off to garden
01:22 AM Crom: no more than G61 is it...
01:22 AM roycroft: biergarten?
01:28 AM archivist: Crom, g62 plus the external servo error without feedback
01:28 AM archivist: g61
01:28 AM Crom: I so need to clean my linear bearings.... though I'm not sure how the junk got into my Y bearings
01:30 AM TurBoss: morning
01:31 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm, seems there's a lot of those closed-loop stepper motors popping up in different places. Seems to be a "new thing" taking over.
01:34 AM Crom: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ2h0jCecDw
01:35 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: lol @ the noise when moving Y - what on earth is happening there:)
01:35 AM Crom: what's the price on a servo with driver that'll do 3Nm
01:36 AM Crom: Y is the linear bearings crunching on something
01:36 AM LeelooMinai: Probably $120 or something - not sure, but I think close to that for 435 inch oz ones
01:36 AM Crom: x and Y are acme 1204 lead screws and Z is a ball screw
01:37 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: Sounds terrifying.
01:38 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: I think something crashes when z-axis moves to the bottom too:)
01:41 AM Crom: heh, that's the Z ball nut, hitting the panel... look at the panel, you see it more.. I need to take the nut out and grind it down a bit
01:41 AM Crom: sss/more/move/
01:42 AM LeelooMinai: Yes, seems something is definitely rubbing there. Well, I guess with time it will CNC itself out:p
01:42 AM Crom: or that...
01:42 AM LeelooMinai: Just do a 1000 loop in g-code:)
01:43 AM Crom: bolt a lathe tool on it.... and write a g code to go up and down all the way across
01:44 AM Crom: grinding the nut will work better
01:44 AM LeelooMinai: Crom: I am guessing you did not design it in CAD first?
01:45 AM LeelooMinai: I have a bit of OCD so the first time I had every screw in CAD, etc.
01:45 AM Crom: I was replacing an existing acme nylon nut which is square, the ball nutt is 6 bol and round on 2 sides
01:45 AM Crom: 6 bolt
01:45 AM LeelooMinai: Right
01:46 AM Crom: I need to squre off one end
01:46 AM Crom: I also need to route a grease line into the zerk hole on the nut..
01:47 AM Crom: or I pull that panel it's hitting
01:48 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm good to see that someone has more mess on the desk that me.
01:48 AM LeelooMinai: than*
01:49 AM Crom: It's not a mess... I know exactly where everything is
01:50 AM LeelooMinai: Right, I was telling myself the same thing in the past, but now I just admit that I have aversion to cleaning:)
01:50 AM Crom: hmmm I have 4 arduino nano's 2 uno's a mega2560,, and all sorts of bits and bobs..
01:51 AM LeelooMinai: I could not even count the number of dev boards I have:)
01:51 AM Crom: everytime I find trash it goe into the trash can(actually bucket)
01:53 AM Crom: in the living room I have 2 MKS Gen 1.4 mega 2560 all in one RAMPS/Marlin boards, plus esp8266's (around 4 of those ) RPi0w, RPI3, RPi0v1.3 and v1.1
01:54 AM Crom: plus 3 ham radio's, 4TB of external drives, more bits and bobs
01:55 AM Crom: kitch only has 2 ham radio's and 6 baofeng 888 radio's we use for the shakkespeareinthevines.org shows
01:55 AM Crom: s/kk/k/
01:55 AM LeelooMinai: I only have 2 old PIs, one zero, probably 20 dev boards with different micros, but mostly stm32s, few FPGA dev boards, one XMOS, few dev boards with stm32 designed by me, plus boards I based on FPGAs and XMOS, etc.
01:57 AM Crom: oh and my pine a64+, another RPi3, 3 more rpi0's more esp88266's under the tv
01:57 AM Crom: Need more 32gb micro sd's
01:58 AM LeelooMinai: That's reassuring - good to know I am not alone in my insanity.
01:59 AM Crom: I really need some hdmi touch screens for my pis
01:59 AM LeelooMinai: But I cut down on electronics a bit recently and attacked the CNC again:)
01:59 AM Crom: Out in the garage in the 2 k40 lasers
02:00 AM Crom: Need a tube for one...
02:01 AM LeelooMinai: Right, well, I am mostly using the PIs around the CNC as "support" for remote control - that is cameras, lights on/off and things like that that do not need linuxcnc running.
02:01 AM Crom: Cnc and electronic go hand in hand
02:01 AM LeelooMinai: So, I just log to them over the network and do not really need input/screen.
02:03 AM Crom: I don't have my DEC VT430 anymore, so I need screens for terminals
02:04 AM Crom: I'm laying here in bed with my phone and a BT keyboard
02:06 AM LeelooMinai: Instead of sleeping there...
02:14 AM Crom: Rubbing doggies belly.... getting my touche kicked by my wife in freecell. I do 1:557 and 106 mves, she does 1:24 and 86 moves... dunno how she does it!
02:18 AM Crom: Doggie wandered off to the foot of the bed... now I have le chat kneading my chest....
02:30 AM Phipli: Urgh. Mornings
02:30 AM Phipli: Client wants a 9am meeting in the wrong city.
02:30 AM Phipli: hum. Connection isn't great
02:32 AM Phiplii: Try again with the train wifi
02:33 AM Crom: I feel for you
02:34 AM Crom: Nite nite
02:36 AM Phiplii: I never quite get why they want to pay me to travel for 4 hours for a two hour meeting
02:36 AM Phiplii: night
03:20 AM Sabotend_ is now known as Sabotender
03:38 AM Deejay: moin
03:40 AM XXCoder: Phipli: dang
03:40 AM XXCoder: 4 hours travel for 2 hours meeting? hopefully paid for 10 hours..
03:52 AM JesusAlos: Good morning
03:59 AM XXCoder: hey
06:46 AM IchGucksLive: hi
06:48 AM IchGucksLive: thunder around just brief for a lightning control map view till later
07:11 AM Phiplii: And meeting done
07:11 AM Phiplii: just need to make my way back to the provinces
07:21 AM JT-Mobile: morning
07:21 AM gcardinal: hi
07:23 AM gcardinal: Looks like when MAX_ACCELERATION is divided by MAX_VELOCITY result is around 6.7. Checked around 10 different configurations and all end up between 5 and 9
07:26 AM JT-Mobile: I've seen that usually max accel is 10-20 times max vel on full size machines
07:27 AM elmo40: why do you divide A by V? what value are you looking for?
07:28 AM JT-Mobile: just an observation on my part of what the normal values are
07:28 AM Phiplii: Hey JT-Mobile. How goes the trip?
07:28 AM gcardinal: elmo40: just out of curiosity
07:29 AM elmo40: there is no such thing as 'normal'. Machines can have a thousand different motor sizes and a thousand different ballscrew pitch. then there is the table weight(or whatever you are moving)
07:29 AM JT-Mobile: good we are spending the day in San Antonio, going to visit the Alamo and the riverwalk
07:29 AM JT-Mobile: normal vs abbynormal
07:30 AM gcardinal: elmo40: I just need a place to start. thats why I checked existing configs of similar style machines to find a ballpark that works
07:30 AM JT-Mobile: or lets say normal machines build for production use like mills and lathes of the most common size
07:30 AM Phiplii: Have you ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
07:30 AM Phiplii: You're not slowly going crazy are you?
07:31 AM JT-Mobile: I seem to remember that book from a long time ago
07:31 AM elmo40: but still, A/V=1/dt. which means what? 1/change in time...
07:31 AM archivist_herron: brother had a copy
07:32 AM archivist_herron: lack of motorbike info though, phail
07:34 AM JT-Mobile: Phiplii, I thought this one looked interesting http://misclab.umeoce.maine.edu/boss/Arduino/bensguides/DS3231_Arduino_Clock_Instructions.pdf
07:34 AM Phiplii: Heh. It is a difficult read
07:34 AM JT-Mobile: opps this one http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php/topic,8705.0.html
07:35 AM Phiplii: (The zen one)
07:35 AM JT-Mobile: ah
07:36 AM Phiplii: JT-Mobile : Arduino Cookbook is my favorite Arduino book. Worth the money.
07:36 AM gcardinal: elmo40 just having hardtime to find values that work so trying randomly everything I can
07:36 AM gcardinal: wasnt able to find much help on wiki
07:37 AM elmo40: please, enlighten me... what is A/V supposed to give you?
07:37 AM gcardinal: elmo40 an base idea what to write there
07:37 AM elmo40: you need that value for a calculation?
07:37 AM JT-Mobile: like I said it was just an observation on my part not a calculation
07:38 AM elmo40: gcardinal: where is this value used?
07:38 AM Phiplii: JT-Mobile : get a clock with a battery so it doesn't forget the time. Can't see if the first one does.
07:38 AM JT-Mobile: Phiplii, found it
07:39 AM JT-Mobile: I have the DS3231 which does a better job of time keeping
07:39 AM gcardinal: elmo40 Im would like to adjust MAX_VELOCITY while keeping MAX_ACCELERATION = MAX_VELOCITY * 7
07:39 AM gcardinal: so this way I can work at one value at a time
07:39 AM JT-Mobile: gcardinal, are you tuning a servo?
07:39 AM gcardinal: nopp stepper
07:40 AM Phiplii: See the mention of the MAKE magazine article on Coop doors in a comment?
07:41 AM JT-Mobile: did you calculate the max velocity from the stepper max rpm and gear ratio?
07:42 AM JT-Mobile: yes I saw the mention of the the MAKE magazine but I'm not familiar with it
07:42 AM Phiplii: http://online.anyflip.com/qthv/zlvy/mobile/index.html
07:42 AM gcardinal: JT-Mobile I dont know max rpm or gear ration - but manufacturer provided 1800 mm/s as absolutt max speed and 1400mm/s as recommended
07:43 AM Phiplii: A hobbyist magazine
07:43 AM sync: then find out what your gear ratio and your screw pitch
07:43 AM sync: and calculate your max rpm from there
07:44 AM JT-Mobile: gcardinal, if you know max speed then move on from there
07:44 AM gcardinal: JT-Mobile ok, for MAX_VELOCITY = 30 I set MAX_VELOCITY to 200 - will test after work
07:45 AM Phiplii: http://online.anyflip.com/qthv/zlvy/mobile/index.html#p=66
07:45 AM Phiplii: Specific page.
07:48 AM elmo40: I do not believe A is higher than V.
07:48 AM elmo40: making A=7V is odd for me.
07:50 AM JT-Mobile- is now known as JT-Mobile
07:50 AM JT-Mobile: windblows blue screen of death lol
07:51 AM Phiplii: Oh dear.
07:51 AM Phiplii: Needs Moar Linux
07:51 AM elmo40: winXP??
07:52 AM JT-Mobile: 7
07:52 AM elmo40: wow. don't think I've ever had BSOD with win7
07:52 AM elmo40: win8, yes.
07:52 AM JT-Mobile: I've had it on 2 different 7's
07:52 AM gcardinal: elmo40 what is your ration?.. just for kicks
07:52 AM elmo40: interesting. what causes it?
07:52 AM JT-Mobile: usually happens after an update lol
07:53 AM elmo40: bad (legacy)hardware driver?
07:53 AM Phiplii: I'm running the latest Ubuntu Gnome on my new machine. Nice gui
07:54 AM JT-Mobile: ubuntu 12 was the last version I used now I use Linux Mint with the Mate desktop
07:54 AM Phiplii: Perhaps it was the beer you spilt in it?
07:54 AM elmo40: yeah, beer doesn't help anything...
07:54 AM elmo40: gcardinal: what do you mean, my ration?
07:54 AM JT-Mobile: I tried 14 but it was too iphone like
07:54 AM gcardinal: elmo40 vel and acc
07:55 AM Phiplii: I use Mint usually
07:55 AM Phiplii: They're going back to Gnome now instead of thingy
07:56 AM Phiplii: Needed Kernel 10.4 for the Ryzen processor
07:56 AM Phiplii: Not officially supported by Mint yet
07:56 AM gcardinal: Phiplii how is Ryzen?..
07:56 AM elmo40: gcardinal: I do not understand your thinking. you are wanting to place values for maximum, right?
07:57 AM Phiplii: gcardinal... pycam still takes forever
07:58 AM gcardinal: elmo40 just so they are stable and works in a usable state
07:58 AM elmo40: gcardinal: A is usually a lower value than V
07:58 AM Phiplii: the 16 threads means that things don't become unresponsive when you're reading the internet while doing processor intensive stuff...
07:59 AM elmo40: an while watching pr0n... gotta multitask!
07:59 AM Phiplii: good so far. I should benchmark it on things /I/ do vs. My old machine
08:00 AM Phiplii: that's why I have two screens elmo40
08:01 AM Phiplii: It is an 8 year upgrade step. Makes a difference :)
08:02 AM gcardinal: Phiplii oh cool, considering upgrade from my i7-2600
08:03 AM Phiplii: If you want I can run some task for you if you want to know how long it takes
08:03 AM JT-Mobile: they are proud of the Ryzen processor
08:04 AM Phiplii: don't blame them. First time they've been close in years
08:04 AM Phiplii: even if it isn't in front, it is an achievement
08:05 AM JT-Mobile: I understand new bleeding edge is costly
08:05 AM JT-Mobile: I had to look as I've not heard of them before
08:05 AM Phiplii: They've announced a workstation processor with 32 threads too...
08:05 AM JT-Mobile: wow
08:06 AM Phiplii: Hum?
08:07 AM Phiplii: AMD are trying to piss off Intel with the pricing of the flagship
08:08 AM Phiplii: but the mid range ones are not as massively cheaper
08:09 AM Phiplii: JT-Mobile : https://openhomeautomation.net/esp8266-battery/
08:09 AM gcardinal: Phiplii I think I will upgrade anyhow. In this round I feel like supporting AMD, just for the pure effort they put into it
08:09 AM Phiplii: I've not AMD'd before. I thought it was worth a punt.
08:13 AM JT-Mobile: Phiplii, I think I read that the other day
08:13 AM * Loetmichel_ is just considering a new GPU for his Company workstation... so F360 will run smoothly (not that i know how to use it. yet...)
08:14 AM Phipliii: connection dropped
08:15 AM gcardinal: Loetmichel_ nvidia quadro or ati firepro especially nice in solidworks - makes everything look so nice :)
08:16 AM Phipliii: But... money :'(
08:17 AM Phipliii: How do you get the logs on here?
08:20 AM gcardinal: Im going for used nvidia quadro 5800 - will get it for around 50 euro. 4gb ram is plenty
08:21 AM Loetmichel_: gcardinal: i am not that rich... bought most components of that company workstation privately... because boss wont.
08:22 AM gcardinal: Loetmichel_ you can usually get a used firepro for very cheap. but its better for cad
08:22 AM Loetmichel_: and the private notebook i used beforehand is a bit slow now... its a Dell precision M6500 ;)
08:24 AM Loetmichel_: as i dont expect to get reimbursed for that gpu i will buy one that can double up for playing games also. but you are right, ideally i would use a firepro or quatro
08:24 AM Phipliii: My work machine is an E6530. I sill love it.
08:25 AM Phipliii: They changed IT suppliers and the new machines are worse.
08:25 AM Phipliii: Do any of you CAD on Linux?
08:26 AM Loetmichel_: Phipliii: i have 11 notebooks at home. from only a little old to VERY old.
08:26 AM Phipliii: Doorstops?
08:26 AM Loetmichel_: and the three Notebooks that are the "workshop whores" here at the company are from my private stock also :-)
08:27 AM Loetmichel_: no, most have at least an I5 and a decent GOU
08:27 AM Loetmichel_: GPU
08:27 AM Loetmichel_: but some are as old as this: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8770&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
08:27 AM Loetmichel_: :-)
08:28 AM Loetmichel_: ... all in working condition tho
08:29 AM Phipliii: They way I look at it, they can still do what they could do
08:30 AM Phipliii: I have a Mac SE from 1987 that still runs. Use it to remind me to appreciate processors that can draw windows fast enough that you don't notice...
08:30 AM Loetmichel_: yeah, my third oldest one struggles with lubuntu 14.04 though... it "runs", but accessing youtube for example results in a 0.5FPS diashow ;)
08:30 AM Phipliii: Got it on Broadband. But webpages aren't too friendly these days. Too much css
08:31 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15999&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
08:31 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15993&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
08:32 AM Phipliii: :)
08:33 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16655&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- google docs needs REAL patience and a few dozen clicks on "Script not responding [continue]" though ;)
08:34 AM Phipliii: Getting PCBs made?
08:34 AM Loetmichel_: ?
08:34 AM mr_boo: sometimes when i start my cnc computer and start linuxcnc no signal gets to the steppers and i need to reboot to get it to work again. what could cause this?
08:35 AM Loetmichel_: failed top initialize the Lpt board?
08:35 AM Loetmichel_: or do you have a mesa?
08:36 AM mr_boo: lpt port on motherboard
08:36 AM Phipliii: Loetmichel_ : the last photo is PCB questions
08:36 AM Loetmichel_: ah
08:36 AM Loetmichel_: no it was just a document i opened in google docs
08:37 AM Loetmichel_: that i happened to have stored there
08:37 AM Phipliii: mr_boo : any clues in the system logs?
08:37 AM mr_boo: Phipliii: is there a system log for linuxcnc?
08:38 AM Phipliii: General logs might show driver issues or software crashing was the thought
08:39 AM mr_boo: this behaviour is not necessarily very inconvenient but most of all weird
08:39 AM mr_boo: i guess it could be an issue with my old motherboard
08:41 AM Phipliii: Has it always done it?
08:42 AM mr_boo: as long as i've used linuxcnc and the debian system it came with
08:44 AM mr_boo: like first cold boot the steppers are dead like doornails and after reboot voila
08:46 AM Phipliii: Hardwar taking too long to respond during boot and the driver giving up?
08:46 AM Phipliii: Happens with GPRS modems
08:47 AM gcardinal: Loetmichel_ auch!.. thats looks painfully slow...
08:47 AM Phipliii: can't use them after a cold boot sometimes.
08:47 AM Loetmichel_: gcardinal: was to be expected when you usea modern OS on a system from early 2000
08:48 AM Loetmichel_: with 512MB ram and 350mhz P2 ;)
08:48 AM gcardinal: auch... just... auch !
08:48 AM Phipliii: :)
08:48 AM Loetmichel_: i was surprised it runs at all
08:48 AM Phipliii: 350!!!
08:49 AM Phipliii: machine I mentioned is just under 8mhz... :)
08:50 AM Loetmichel_: ahem.... thats about AVR mega8 level then...
08:50 AM Loetmichel_: i doubt you can run any linux on that ;)
08:51 AM Phipliii: Way slower processor. Not 1mips=1mhz
08:51 AM Phipliii: but more dedicated hardware.
08:52 AM Phipliii: Not that I know. But you can on the next chip revision
08:52 AM Loetmichel_: my first computer was a Z80 at 8 Mhz... in 1976 or 78, cant really remember :-)
08:53 AM Phipliii: they're very opcode inefficient - 8mhz Z80=3mhz 6502
08:53 AM Loetmichel_: i wasnt even a teen back then ;)
08:53 AM Phipliii: I was a BBC Micro kid
08:53 AM Phipliii: 2mhz 6502
08:54 AM Loetmichel_: <- sinclair zx81, zx spectrum, then Amiga 500, then PC
08:54 AM Phipliii: second hand because I'm a whippersnapper
08:54 AM Loetmichel_: bzut the mentoined system was an "office microcomputer" of the company my fahter was the production manager back then.
08:54 AM Loetmichel_: -z
08:55 AM archivist_herron: Z80 divides its clock by about 4
08:55 AM Loetmichel_: i DO have a bunch of c64, dragon32 and similar systems in my cellar now though.
08:57 AM SpeedEvil: archivist_herron: 12 IIRC
08:57 AM SpeedEvil: Though it's been a while.
08:57 AM SpeedEvil: I had a nice design for a little z80 based dumb machine.
08:58 AM archivist_herron: I did a reporct comparing Z80 6502 and 6802, 6502 won :)
08:58 AM SpeedEvil: Read 64K of bank-switched RAM, when the processor couldn't due to cycles, stuck it into a 8 bit buffer, and then clocked it out 2 bits at a time to make a 3 level display.
08:58 AM SpeedEvil: Using only a couple of counters a buffer or two.
08:59 AM archivist_herron: 4 meg xtal on a basic 1 meg(ish) Z80
08:59 AM Vq: <- ZX Spectrum kid
08:59 AM SpeedEvil: ZX81 here.
08:59 AM SpeedEvil: Fun fact.
08:59 AM archivist_herron: Commodore PET rulz
09:00 AM SpeedEvil: Todays PC has damn near a million times the compute performance of the ZX81.
09:00 AM SpeedEvil: But single cycle random byte access to RAM has improved by a factor of ~40 or so.
09:01 AM Vq: We live in wondrous times.
09:01 AM archivist_herron: I did have the science of Cambridge thing that came before the ZX's but hardly used it
09:02 AM SpeedEvil: I have a cambridge z88 - which still works.
09:03 AM SpeedEvil: ~ipad sized portable computer from 1988.
09:03 AM SpeedEvil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88
09:07 AM Loetmichel_: SpeedEvil: i sitll have the innards of a zx 81 wirh a custom rom running in the oil heatnig furnace of a friends house... since the early 80ties. it just refuses to die
09:07 AM Loetmichel_: still, with
09:07 AM SpeedEvil: EPROM rot may eventually kill it
09:08 AM Loetmichel_: i doubt it, burned that with a dumb algorithm, ~500ms per cell ;)
09:08 AM archivist_herron: RAM rot kills the PET
09:09 AM archivist_herron: mine was sick 10 years ago http://www.collection.archivist.info/thumbs/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300022_T.JPG
09:11 AM Loetmichel_: do you have that pic a bit bigger?
09:14 AM Phipli: Ram seems to be killing my beebs.
09:25 AM roycroft: i've gotten rid of most of my old computers
09:25 AM roycroft: i think there's a sparcstation 2 in my attic still
09:26 AM roycroft: but other than that i think the really old stuff is gone
09:26 AM JT-Mobile: reading the cookbook I wonder if I need to debounce my switches
09:26 AM SpeedEvil: I've been pondering throwing out my box of TTL
09:27 AM gcardinal: here is my with old norwegian pc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26jjX7U_Q88
09:27 AM gcardinal: or not a "pc" :)
09:27 AM roycroft: i still have a bunch of livingston portmasters, though, and several are still in service
09:28 AM roycroft: but not as terminal servers any more (we've outsourced our dial-up modem service)
09:28 AM roycroft: they're used as console servers these days
09:28 AM roycroft: those date from the early '90s
09:28 AM archivist_herron: dial still exists?
09:28 AM roycroft: yes, we have quite a number of dialup customers
09:28 AM SpeedEvil: Sometimes there isn't an option.
09:29 AM roycroft: broadband is not as ubiquitous as one might think
09:29 AM roycroft: in large parts of rural america dialup is the only reasonable option
09:29 AM roycroft: i don't consider satellite internet reasonable
09:29 AM roycroft: unless one is only downloading pr0n
09:30 AM roycroft: it's frustrating at the very least for anything remotely interactive
09:30 AM roycroft: i suppose it might work for a uucp link
09:30 AM archivist_herron: .000001% of websites will be dial up friendly
09:30 AM sync: satellite works quite well with mosh
09:30 AM roycroft: yet email can still be dialup friendly
09:30 AM SpeedEvil: also IRC
09:31 AM roycroft: and gopher
09:33 AM JT-Mobile: hmm the map function is neat
09:34 AM phipli: and home
09:34 AM SpeedEvil: Sort of on topic. Is anyone aware of any '3d' design tools for android, for houses? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pl.planmieszkania.android&hl=en_GB
09:34 AM phipli: + neighbours bribed with eggs
09:34 AM SpeedEvil: is sort of there, but it's really 2d, and doesn't do overlapping well at all.
09:35 AM SpeedEvil: I mean for rough design sketches.
09:36 AM phipli: JT-Mobile, yeah - map is handy. Saves on thought. If I have to think, I make mistakes
09:48 AM JT-Mobile: I hear you
09:50 AM JT-Mobile: on a recent project I controlled the outputs of a plc using hexadecimal
09:50 AM JT-Mobile: it saved a bunch of coding
09:51 AM JT-Mobile: in a Click plc you can "copy" a hex number to a range of outputs :)
09:54 AM phipli: you can do the same on an arduino
09:54 AM phipli: good trick for some things
09:54 AM phipli: if situation A, then set portB = FF
09:54 AM phipli: or whatever
09:55 AM phipli: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/PortManipulation
09:55 AM phipli: there you go
09:55 AM phipli: they use binary in the example, but hex will work too
09:55 AM JT-Mobile: cool
09:56 AM phipli: hex is written 0xFF in arduino land
09:56 AM phipli: binary is B11111111
09:56 AM phipli: so... PORTD = B11111111;
09:57 AM phipli: would turn all pins for Port D to high.
09:57 AM JT-Mobile: cool
09:57 AM JT-Mobile: we are off to the Alamo now
09:57 AM phipli: http://foros.giltesa.com/otros/arduino/fc/docs/pinout/uno.jpg
09:57 AM phipli: will tell you what pins are on what port
09:58 AM phipli: where PD0-PD7 (for example) are the 8 pins in port D
09:58 AM phipli: enjoy :)
10:08 AM nubcake: is anyone of you guys using one of those chinese 3040s ?
10:09 AM phipli: cough. Perhaps
10:09 AM phipli: Not with linuxcnc though
10:09 AM nubcake: did you add endstops to it? i'm thinking about doing so but i'm not sure what kind of and where to place them
10:10 AM Loetmichel_: i use a 6040
10:10 AM Loetmichel_: which is similar enoigh
10:10 AM Loetmichel_: WITH endstops
10:10 AM nubcake: ah, same machine just bigger size i guess
10:10 AM phipli: I've considered it, but haven't needed to yet
10:10 AM Loetmichel_: gimme a moment
10:11 AM phipli: I'd probably stick the x quite high up on the uprights
10:11 AM phipli: and the y in the gap near the rails underneath?
10:11 AM nubcake: i was thinking about inductive/capacitive ones, those cheap mechanical ones failed me on my proxxon mf70
10:12 AM phipli: ah right
10:12 AM phipli: I mainly use it for pcbs and haven't pushed the limits of size yet
10:12 AM phipli: I'd have gone with microswitches
10:12 AM nubcake: oh ok, i was about to give it a try for aluminum
10:12 AM phipli: what spindle do you have?
10:13 AM phipli: the stock one... struggles
10:13 AM nubcake: a chinese "800w" watercooled one
10:13 AM phipli: yeah, I've only got the "400W" on it
10:13 AM phipli: so you'll do better :)
10:13 AM nubcake: :D hopefully
10:13 AM nubcake: i hope it's not the same spindle just labeled for 800w :D
10:13 AM phipli: tell me how it goes, I will upgrade when I can justify it
10:14 AM phipli: does watercooled mean you have to poor water over it?
10:14 AM nubcake: nope
10:14 AM phipli: *pour
10:14 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15256&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
10:14 AM phipli: hum. I wonder has anyone ever made active cooled steppers
10:14 AM nubcake: 2 small "hoses" one connected to a pump other end goes back to the pump
10:15 AM Loetmichel_: there you can see x and z schwitches (z behind the cable of the endoscope cam)
10:15 AM phipli: with a refrigeration system or peltier coolers...
10:15 AM archivist_herron: I saw one of the water cooled ones today, the coolant was in was a plastic storage box with lid!
10:15 AM Loetmichel_: phil: a big bucket is sufficient
10:15 AM nubcake: Loetmichel_, thanks, looks good,
10:16 AM nubcake: archivist, almost sounds like mine :D
10:16 AM phipli: Loetmichel_, interesting
10:16 AM nubcake: big sealed plastic container
10:16 AM Loetmichel_: thats how i have it at home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Ov69t0uwo
10:16 AM archivist_herron: steel/metal bucket to conduct the heat away
10:17 AM phipli: Loetmichel_, I've cooled rooms in this house with a bucket of ice-water, a fishtank pump and one of those computer watercooling radiator/fans
10:17 AM Loetmichel_: platic bucket is sufficient here
10:17 AM phipli: works quite well to take the edge off the temperature
10:18 AM Loetmichel_: phipli: depending on temerature and humidity outside it works even better if you put a big 2m long tube on top of hte bucket OUTSIDE and let the return of the radiator INSIDE "rain down" inside the tube
10:18 AM Loetmichel_: like a miniature powerplant cooling tower
10:19 AM Loetmichel_: you just have to refill the bucket every few hours
10:19 AM archivist_herron: where I went today that had a lid so no cooling by vapourisation
10:19 AM Loetmichel_: been there done that
10:19 AM phipli: :)
10:20 AM phipli: Loetmichel_, how powerful is your spindle?
10:21 AM Loetmichel_: 800w
10:21 AM phipli: what size collet is it?
10:21 AM phipli: still ER11?
10:21 AM phipli: or bigger
10:21 AM Loetmichel_: er11
10:22 AM phipli: and that is just a little submersible water pump of the pond / fishtank type?
10:23 AM Loetmichel_: indoor fountain pump
10:24 AM phipli: you fixed a new spindle mount to the standard one? After cutting it down?
10:24 AM Loetmichel_: ?
10:25 AM phipli: Did it come with that spindle, or did you modify it to take a bigger one?
10:25 AM phipli: The spindle holder on mine is different
10:25 AM Loetmichel_: that machine at home (the one of the video) is selfbuild
10:25 AM phipli: ahhhh
10:25 AM phipli: my bad
10:25 AM nubcake: brb
10:25 AM phipli: although I was looking at this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqXauMOhWos
10:26 AM phipli: isn't that a chinese 3040?
10:26 AM Loetmichel_: the 6040 at the company had come with the 800W AC spindle
10:26 AM Loetmichel_: thats the 6040 at the company
10:26 AM Loetmichel_: that came with this set
10:26 AM phipli: All interesting
10:27 AM Loetmichel_: only the end switches and the vacuumm table are selfbuilt
10:27 AM Loetmichel_: the machine at home had a proxxon 400W dc spindle beforehand
10:28 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12494&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- before conversion to 800W watercooled
10:28 AM phipli: Any advice on which spindles to avoid or which are better?
10:29 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12521 <-maaking the holders
10:29 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12530 <- done
10:30 AM phipli: poor proxxon. Like digging its own grave :(
10:31 AM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569 working again
10:31 AM Loetmichel_: the proxxxon is now in the mill of a friend
10:31 AM Loetmichel_: it didnt go to the scrapheap ;)
10:33 AM Loetmichel_: [17:00] <Loetmichel_> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569 working again
10:33 AM Loetmichel_: [17:01] <Loetmichel_> the proxxxon is now in the mill of a friend
10:33 AM Loetmichel_: [17:01] <Loetmichel_> it didnt go to the scrapheap ;)
10:53 AM mr_boo: phew my first coil done. 17 more to go https://imagebin.ca/v/3OGIYf76WDDV
10:53 AM phipli: what are the coils for?
10:54 AM mr_boo: for a so called "delay line box"
10:54 AM phipli: nods
10:54 AM phipli: audio effect, or for something else?
10:55 AM mr_boo: hammond vibrato scanner project
10:55 AM phipli: I have a hammond
10:55 AM phipli: :)
10:55 AM phipli: L122 in the other room
10:56 AM phipli: Sadly I didn't manage to "borrow" my dad's C3 when I left home...
10:56 AM phipli: little heavy
10:57 AM mr_boo: how i wish i also had a hammond
10:57 AM phipli: What country are you in?
10:57 AM mr_boo: sweden
10:58 AM mr_boo: do you know if the dc resistance of the line box coils inside a real hammond is around 435 ohms?
10:58 AM phipli: the smaller tonewheel hammonds still go <£100 here looking on ebay
10:59 AM mr_boo: i've seen a line box cost that amount of money
10:59 AM mr_boo: that was seriously cheap btw
10:59 AM phipli: because Sweden?
10:59 AM mr_boo: maybe
11:00 AM mr_boo: any real hammond <£100 must be in poor condition?
11:00 AM phipli: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122503015475
11:00 AM phipli: was a bit rough... not sure if it was working
11:00 AM phipli: but there are many <£200
11:01 AM phipli: perhaps because people search for L100
11:01 AM phipli: ?
11:01 AM phipli: not realising that the L122 is basically the same
11:01 AM phipli: same as people pay way more for a B3 than a C3, but they are the same inside
11:02 AM mr_boo: true
11:02 AM mr_boo: lack of knowledge
11:02 AM mr_boo: in fact the C3 is more bang for buck
11:02 AM mr_boo: but one could argue the B3 "looks better"
11:03 AM phipli: I love the two stage start on them
11:03 AM phipli: so over the top
11:03 AM phipli: The only Keyboard I know of that has a starter motor
11:03 AM phipli: :)
11:03 AM phipli: Are you a keyboard guy then? I have a few things here
11:04 AM phipli: I have a DX7
11:04 AM mr_boo: yes
11:05 AM phipli: most of the good stuff is at my parents house (and brothers) because they've been collecting longer
11:05 AM phipli: I've got an Alpha Juno 2, last of the analogue Junos...
11:06 AM phipli: Back home there are Juno 2s, a Poly 800... an Ensoniq tone module... all sorts of fun things
11:06 AM mr_boo: i'm playing the so called "janko" keyboard system http://cmuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/janko-keyboard.jpg
11:07 AM mr_boo: i play guitar and bass also and i really dislike the regular "7-5" piano system
11:07 AM phipli: That thing looks amazing
11:07 AM phipli: I've never seen one
11:08 AM phipli: how does it work?
11:08 AM phipli: My brother's home made modular : http://nervoussquirrel.com/modular.html
11:08 AM mr_boo: its a linear system somewhat similar to fretting on a guitar but with whole notes between keys horizontally
11:09 AM mr_boo: holy smoke he built THAT synth?
11:10 AM phipli: over about 10 years so far yes
11:10 AM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/OQlOxcLuZiI?t=2m12s the finish is nothing to brag about
11:10 AM mr_boo: that thing looks HUUUGE
11:11 AM phipli: It is. Trust me.
11:11 AM phipli: I've helped him move house.
11:12 AM mr_boo: i live in an apartment and my CNC winder is on the floor in the living room
11:13 AM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/OQlOxcLuZiI?t=1m10s he's not roughing it, that was a finish pass
11:16 AM mr_boo: CaptHindsight: looks neat
11:17 AM mr_boo: although a CNC lathe would be handy the real deal is a CNC mill
11:24 AM LeelooMinai: When I look at this guy using lathe, this old song comes to my mind: "Turn, turn. turn your way, gently through the steel. Merrily, merilly, merilly, merilly, boom - fingers gone"
11:26 AM SpeedEvil: :)
11:33 AM * roycroft likes his fingers and jealously keeps them away from the scary parts of the lathe
11:49 AM Loetmichel_: Phipliii: the CNC 6040 already worked itself thru the first set of stepper couplers... and judging by the sound the Spindle bearings will soon follow ;)
11:50 AM gregcnc: capthindsight did you buy that clausing?
11:50 AM Loetmichel_: so it has seeen QUITE a bit of work in the last 4 years. but still going strong, not bad for such a cheap thing.
11:58 AM phipli: roycroft, my family has a history of doing damage to their fingers so I take /extra/ care.
12:03 PM enleth: LCNC/Axis is not loading Z tool offsets after a restart/rehome. What gives?
12:04 PM cradek: to get a tool offset you need to issue a gcode from the G43 family
12:05 PM roycroft: i see a lot of machinist videos where the machine operator is wearing gloves
12:05 PM roycroft: it makes me cringe every time
12:05 PM cradek: if you give more information about what you're doing you may get a better answer
12:06 PM Jymmm: cradek: Got a moment? Had a postscrpt question for you
12:07 PM enleth: cradek: derp, yes, thanks
12:07 PM enleth: I was sure I did it
12:07 PM cradek: Jymmm: I'm not an expert but maybe
12:07 PM enleth: but I didn't
12:07 PM Jymmm: cradek: No worries, will pm you...
12:08 PM enleth: roycroft: well, there's a slight chance they are wearing proper tearaway gloves for protection from oil/coolant/solvents
12:08 PM enleth: but a very slight one
12:08 PM enleth: I cringe when I see those as well
12:09 PM roycroft: and are "tearaway gloves" really as safe as no gloves?
12:09 PM roycroft: sure, they're better than gloves not designed for that
12:09 PM roycroft: but i still don't trust them
12:09 PM archivist: ex boss did a .8 mod gear cut in his finger
12:10 PM enleth: roycroft: no idea, supposedly they're safe
12:10 PM enleth: but there is a safe alternative, spray-on gloves
12:10 PM roycroft: i'll let someone else test that premise :)
12:11 PM roycroft: i wear gloves when handling materials, but remove them before my fingers get near things that spin
12:20 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:20 PM IchGucksLive: Loetmichel_: nix cabria heute oder nass geworden
12:22 PM Loetmichel_: IchGucksLive: werkstatt. car has thrown a rod a few weeks ago.. actually i have the "new" used engine for it in the back of my Omega, to bring it to the mechanic tomorrow morning.
12:23 PM IchGucksLive: bad at this time temps
12:23 PM Loetmichel_: roycroft: i use simple latex gloves to protect from oil and dirt
12:23 PM Loetmichel_: on a machine they simply disintegrate if you catch something
12:23 PM Loetmichel_: they dont pull you in
12:23 PM LeelooMinai: But they also desintegrate if you do anything:(
12:24 PM Loetmichel_: i change them frequently... thats why you buy them by 100-packs ;)
12:25 PM LeelooMinai: So far I have not found gloves that would keep the "touch" and be strong enough
12:26 PM IchGucksLive: Loetmichel_: use the kress 1050 its the hell of a spindle
12:27 PM Loetmichel_: IchGucksLive: wha? NO! i used up about half a dozen of them on the mill of my ex boss
12:27 PM LeelooMinai: IchGucksLive: I read it has too much runout.
12:27 PM Loetmichel_: Kress are not meant to work 8 hours straight 5 days a week
12:27 PM Loetmichel_: the bnearings fail and the brushes disappear every half year
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: i use it now for most wood jobs and AL in education and im deeply impressed on the performance of the 1050
12:27 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: not that much actually
12:28 PM Loetmichel_: but they are loud to top that, too
12:28 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: O, right, since you are German, what do you think of Proxxon tools? I had an argument with someone here who insisted that Dremel is better. But imo it's not even in the same league.
12:28 PM Loetmichel_: wouldnt recommend to use TC mill bits smaller than 0,8mm tho
12:29 PM IchGucksLive: at 1000 RPM it gets so mutch power to the bit the 1,5kw CN will just stall a 5mm drill
12:29 PM Loetmichel_: dremel is not even in the same league when it comes to collet quality, runout, side forces capability and general build qualtiy
12:30 PM roycroft: i have wasted so much money on dremel tools
12:30 PM Loetmichel_: where it CAN compete is bearing life and motor life (all compared to a proxxon FBS230 or IB/E)
12:30 PM LeelooMinai: Right, that was my impression too. I have Proxxon for drilling hole in the PCBs and when I first turned it on I thought something was wrong - it was so quiet and vibration-free.
12:30 PM IchGucksLive: the proxxon 50/e is the best you can get at that size
12:30 PM roycroft: they are inaccuate, hazardous, and burn up at the first opportunity
12:30 PM roycroft: i use foredom flex-shaft tools now
12:30 PM roycroft: but those are not portable
12:30 PM roycroft: if i needed a hand-held rotary tool i'd get a proxxon for sure
12:31 PM IchGucksLive: 20years ago i used a ib/E 230V at work almost every day on sharpening harden steel and it worked for 4 years
12:31 PM LeelooMinai: BTW, when I ordered that Proxxon long time ago, the online shop by accident sent me two of them:)
12:31 PM * roycroft has burned up at least a dozen dremels, and finally gave up on them
12:31 PM IchGucksLive: while air tool wars broken aevery second month
12:32 PM Loetmichel_: Proxxons dont like overload
12:32 PM Loetmichel_: especially near stalled
12:32 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, well, they seem to be precision tools.
12:33 PM Loetmichel_: dremels have better airflow, so they can cope with that better... thats about the only thin a dremel is better at than a proxxon
12:33 PM Loetmichel_: +g
12:33 PM LeelooMinai: I have cheap $15 dremel-like tools too, and they are ok for "brutal" usage.
12:33 PM roycroft: for axial operations a dremel is semi-acceptable
12:33 PM LeelooMinai: So if I have to do something that is risky, I would certainly not use my Proxxon one.
12:34 PM roycroft: for side loads it will fail immediately
12:34 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: i used my FBS230 for millig steel on my CNC6040 once... while it wasnt really NICE it kind of worked...
12:34 PM LeelooMinai: But, for drilling holes in the PCB, the difference was huge, since you use thin carbide drills and they can break if you just stare at the too long:)
12:34 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: lol...
12:34 PM roycroft: so your pcb drilling is probably the only thing that won't destroy a dremel
12:35 PM roycroft: but runout is so high the dremel will destroy your tooling
12:35 PM Loetmichel_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGNbgkg9O2Y <- "horizontal mill conversion" to put in a few "afterthought" plug holes ;)
12:35 PM LeelooMinai: Right, imo Dremel is not a precision tool - more like a small rotary all-around household tool.
12:36 PM roycroft: except they usually release their magic smoke the first time you use them :)
12:36 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: That looks like alu - that's steel?
12:36 PM roycroft: dremels make great gifts for the armchair handy person
12:37 PM gregcnc_ is now known as gregcnc
12:38 PM Loetmichel_: 1mm galvanized steel
12:38 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: Well, actually, now that I remember I used my $15 jobmate "rotary tool" with a "burr" endmill to enlarge some holes in 1/4 inch steel angles.
12:39 PM LeelooMinai: And it worked better than I expected, and I did it with just holding the thing in my hands...
12:40 PM LeelooMinai: I would not advise it though - if you make tiny mistake and it gets out of control, it's a bit scary:)
12:40 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, but if that mill can mill steel with that tool, maybe I can in the futre mill some steel parts too - that would be nice.
12:41 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: I guess you were able to do that because the mill diamter is small, so you could get away with too high RPM you would get otherwise.
12:41 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: The problem with the solution in the video was that boss had ordered 50 Steel enclosures... before we had finalized what plugs should be in there... so i had to find a way to do the holes... and since the Mill has only 80mm in z trave...
12:42 PM Loetmichel_: it took quite a toll in amount of mill bits tho ;)
12:42 PM Loetmichel_: mill bits used up i mean
12:42 PM Loetmichel_: thats the setuo:
12:42 PM Loetmichel_: thats the setup:
12:42 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14486&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
12:43 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14483&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- thats how the mill looks normally ;)
12:43 PM LeelooMinai: Well, it worked, then it worked - better than doing it by hand.
12:44 PM Loetmichel_: absolutely... bought a new set of hearing protectors afterwards though ;)
12:44 PM CaptHindsight: greg__: yeah, he's a local towing/auto/machine shop guy
12:44 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: They make this hole in the gantry or you did that for something? http://i.imgur.com/TvwJTgk.png
12:45 PM LeelooMinai: Seems weird to me.
12:45 PM Loetmichel_: the gantry sides are extrudedn aluminium
12:45 PM LeelooMinai: A, hmm... so the hole is part of the extrusion?
12:45 PM CaptHindsight: greg__: haven't run it yet, all the ways look new, I didn't care much about the rest
12:45 PM Loetmichel_: its just the hole thats used on the bottom with to screw the crossbar with the ball nut into it
12:46 PM Loetmichel_: the second hole is covered by the Z-extrusion that give stability (kind of) on the back of the gantry
12:46 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I guess that's stronger than just using thread on the bottom side.
12:46 PM CaptHindsight: greg__: picked up a giant welding table as well made from a surface plate
12:47 PM gregcnc: nice
12:51 PM LeelooMinai: CaptHindsight: You should use commas or something: I first read that you got a well made from a surface plate:)
12:51 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: i think the extrusion the sides are made out of are simply made that way to provide a chance to mount something on the end faces
12:52 PM Loetmichel_: as in "tap the hole, screw in, done". or even use selftapping screws
12:52 PM gregcnc: wells are of no use for machining so there is no need for punctuation
12:52 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: In English you never know - each word has 100 uses:)
12:52 PM roycroft: the rolf harris retrial ended with a hung jury, and the prosecution will not retry
12:53 PM roycroft: i guess at age 87 they figure it's not worth it any more
12:53 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: https://imagebin.ca/v/3OGtL6Qm5XHa
12:54 PM roycroft: i think that's cosby's strategy too - stall until he's so old they don't want to bother
12:54 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, seems my steel stand is made from 1/8 thick steel - I wonder if I can cut it at home, since I would like to make it a bit shorter.
12:55 PM roycroft: you can cut 0.120" steel with a hacksaw
12:55 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe grinder + one of those cut off disks? I found tons of them in the basement.
12:55 PM roycroft: is it angle?
12:56 PM Loetmichel_: who is rolf harris and what had he done?
12:56 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: I am sure you can cut 2 inch steel with a hacksaw:) But do you want to? :)
12:56 PM roycroft: australian children's performer
12:56 PM roycroft: most famous for his song "tie me kangaroo down, sport"
12:56 PM roycroft: and he molested little girls for decades
12:56 PM Loetmichel_: never heard
12:56 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: The legs are bent as a channel.
12:56 PM roycroft: he was knighted
12:56 PM LeelooMinai: So |__| shape.
12:56 PM roycroft: and de-knighted
12:56 PM roycroft: oh, still easily hacksawable
12:57 PM Loetmichel_: ah, like that brit that got caught posthumus?
12:57 PM LeelooMinai: Lol, knight and a molester.
12:57 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Easily... right...
12:59 PM roycroft: i'm old and decrepit, but would still have no problem with 0.120" u-channel
01:00 PM LeelooMinai: I am in the process of disassembling everything and putting together back.
01:00 PM LeelooMinai: This is what I have to work with: http://i.imgur.com/ZPFyHSZ.jpg
01:01 PM LeelooMinai: The top has welded l-shaped mounts and the legs are screwed to them.
01:02 PM LeelooMinai: You think I should keep the stand and make it better by modifications, or it's hopeless?
01:03 PM LeelooMinai: It was in the basement for 10 years and did not rust, so I guess it's not a bad steel.
01:04 PM roycroft: is the stand bolted together?
01:04 PM LeelooMinai: Well, as you can see there, the legs are bolted with 1/4-20 screws I believe.
01:04 PM roycroft: oh, yes, you say the legs are screwed to it
01:04 PM roycroft: so take it apart
01:05 PM roycroft: and put the legs in your horizontal band saw to shorten them :)
01:05 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, I will use my imaginary saw to have imaginary cuts:p
01:05 PM roycroft: you've been talking about adding mass to increase rigidity
01:06 PM roycroft: i would suggest that you weld those legs on to increase rigidity
01:06 PM roycroft: after you shorten them, of course
01:06 PM roycroft: unless it's galvanized
01:06 PM roycroft: in which case do not weld on them or you will be sorry (and sick)
01:07 PM gregcnc: if galvanized call Dioz
01:07 PM LeelooMinai: No, I don't think it is - I mean I am not an expert on steel, but...
01:07 PM LeelooMinai: Wouldn't galvanized surface look "flaked" in pattern?
01:07 PM roycroft: depends on if it's hot-dipped or electroplated
01:08 PM LeelooMinai: Because this is more like some kind of oxidation-like surface.
01:08 PM roycroft: you said it's been in a basement, which generally implies high humidity/dampness, and there is no corrosion
01:08 PM LeelooMinai: Right
01:08 PM roycroft: that's what made me thing it might be galvanized
01:09 PM LeelooMinai: It's magnetic - I just checked.
01:09 PM LeelooMinai: So ok, it's probably steel + some treatment for anti-rust.
01:10 PM roycroft: it could be a phosphate coating
01:10 PM LeelooMinai: But not 100% sure, since the edges seem cut and no rust there either - weird.
01:10 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: i would have used a hacksaw on that table legs
01:10 PM roycroft: that was my suggestion
01:10 PM Loetmichel_: its easy if you have a good blade in there
01:10 PM Loetmichel_: ;)
01:10 PM Loetmichel_: ... and a bit of muscle mass ;)
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: You don't count:)
01:11 PM Loetmichel_: why not?
01:11 PM roycroft: but she demurred
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: Because you are golem-sized:)
01:11 PM roycroft: so that's why i suggested she use her horizontal band saw
01:11 PM Loetmichel_: not true
01:11 PM roycroft: which she's becoming increasingly convinced she needs :)
01:11 PM Loetmichel_: i am just 180cm tall
01:12 PM roycroft: and it seems to me that since that stand is no longer in the basement there must be plenty of space in the basement for a horizontal band saw
01:12 PM LeelooMinai: I was also thinking that I could use threaded rods I have to make the stand more rigid - by using them as compression rods after drilling through the legs in the middle or so.
01:12 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: I am 174, but half 2/3 your weight probably:)
01:13 PM roycroft: if you have no welding equipment/skills, make friends with a welder and get the thing welded up properly
01:13 PM * Loetmichel_ had a delivery at the company yesterday... little wooden box about the size of 5 jerrycans combined... inside: 35keur worth of glass panes.
01:14 PM Loetmichel_: the ups delivery guy: "could you help me with that? i just broke my arm 5 weeks ago" ( he still had the cast)...
01:14 PM Loetmichel_: <. "no problem..." *Grab* *LIIIIIIFT* *carry inside*
01:14 PM roycroft: i would have said "sorry, but they belong to you until delivery is complete"
01:14 PM LeelooMinai: lol, seems a bit mis-planned
01:15 PM Loetmichel_: ... the delivery guy got big eyes... "i meant help me, not do it alone. you realize how heavy that is?"
01:15 PM roycroft: not because i would be unwilling
01:15 PM Loetmichel_: <. "yes, its written on the box. Only 53 kg, so what?"
01:15 PM roycroft: but because of liability should i drop/damage the stuff
01:16 PM Loetmichel_: roycroft: then dont drop it ;)
01:16 PM LeelooMinai: O, right, what would you do with the steel angles on a CNC - I will have oportunity to protect them from rust, but... paint? With brush, air-brush, do something else?
01:16 PM roycroft: we have this little dance whenever i do a fiber buildout
01:16 PM Loetmichel_: i had to carry it inside anyways ;)
01:16 PM roycroft: the city likes to buy the fiber and have the contractor install it
01:16 PM roycroft: so we buy it
01:16 PM roycroft: then the contractor comes to test it
01:17 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: foam rollers and 2k paint
01:17 PM roycroft: "now it belongs to you until i accept it at the end of the pull"
01:17 PM LeelooMinai: I think ideally one would poweder-coat them, but, I do not want to invest in the equipment.
01:17 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: 2k paint?
01:17 PM roycroft: we store it in a city warehouse, but make the contractor sign paperwork saying they're responsible for it
01:17 PM LeelooMinai: I hope it's not $2k...
01:17 PM Loetmichel_: paint that consists of a "paint resin" and a hardener
01:17 PM roycroft: an average reel of the fiber we buy is about $65k
01:18 PM Loetmichel_: roycroft: the company that installed the fiber at the company had done 3 pulls.
01:18 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, never heard of it - will need to research.
01:18 PM roycroft: i'm using a nice two-part industrial urethane on machinery these days
01:18 PM roycroft: it can be sprayed or brushed
01:18 PM Loetmichel_: the third one they got ONE working fiber out of the 4 fiber cable they pulled... ;)
01:18 PM roycroft: and i use an epoxy primer underneath it
01:19 PM LeelooMinai: I have small air-brush with compresspr - will it work?
01:19 PM roycroft: i usually buy 288 strand cables
01:19 PM phipliii: hum. Sat in the garden with my laptop and all the sparrows have decided I'm harmless
01:19 PM roycroft: and all 288 strands must test good
01:19 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: those paints are thick
01:19 PM Loetmichel_: they are not meant to be sprayed
01:19 PM Loetmichel_: they are rolled on
01:19 PM roycroft: the stuff i use is nasty
01:19 PM roycroft: i have a filter respirator that i wear when shooting it
01:19 PM roycroft: but it would be best to have a fresh air respirator
01:20 PM roycroft: it should certainly not be applied in a residence
01:20 PM Loetmichel_: roycroft: all urethanes are nasty
01:20 PM roycroft: but it's really great paint
01:20 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: So I assume those are special paints that will not chip, flake, etc.?
01:20 PM roycroft: it stands up to cutting oil, coolant, etc.
01:20 PM roycroft: the only real drawback is that it has a seven day full cure time
01:20 PM roycroft: althought it can be handled after a day
01:21 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: these paints are slightly elastic
01:21 PM Loetmichel_: so they dont chip or flake
01:21 PM LeelooMinai: Resistant to hits with hard object?
01:21 PM Loetmichel_: yes
01:22 PM LeelooMinai: Right, seems nice - assuming price will not kill me.
01:22 PM LeelooMinai: Could paint the whole stand too.
01:22 PM Loetmichel_: usually its a bit more pricey than the cheap stuff at home depot.
01:22 PM Loetmichel_: but well worth every cent
01:23 PM LeelooMinai: Is 2k the brand or type?
01:23 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, seems type
01:24 PM Loetmichel_: 2k means 2 components. no idea how that stuff is called in english, sorry
01:25 PM Loetmichel_: a resin and a hardener
01:25 PM Loetmichel_: that have to be mixed before applying
01:25 PM Loetmichel_: it doesent work by evaporating a thinner
01:26 PM Loetmichel_: its just like any other (urethane) resin there is, just with added pigment ;)
01:29 PM IchGucksLive: Gn8
01:35 PM LeelooMinai: Right, Canada is a bit weird at time. I see in US Eastwood, etc. has this kind no problem, but here I may have to deal with homedepot and million of paints they have in cans with who knows what's inside:/
01:38 PM LeelooMinai: Like this one: https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.appliance-epoxy---black.1000113856.html
01:39 PM LeelooMinai: "Appliance epoxy" - ok...
01:39 PM sync: just go to an industrial supply place or order online
01:39 PM LeelooMinai: From US?
01:40 PM sync: from ca obv
01:42 PM enleth: interesting, I just noticed my mill did two "flats" on the sides of a circular pocket
01:43 PM LeelooMinai: backlash or something?
01:43 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe it was on the change of direction of one of the axis.
01:44 PM LeelooMinai: Ballscrews or leadscrews?
01:44 PM enleth: ballscrews, flats are parallel to X axis
01:46 PM LeelooMinai: sync: Right, unfortunatelly it seems to be same as me once searching for epoxy, but, you know, like large bucket for reasonable price. Cannot really find anything reasonable they would online-sell to people without "call for prices" or something like that - probably they only deal with bigger orders.
01:46 PM enleth: http://i.imgur.com/xhPYMby.jpg
01:46 PM LeelooMinai: enleth: So I would check y then.
01:46 PM enleth: you can see the two flats in the pocket and a weird flat step in the outside corner
01:47 PM enleth: looks as if Y stopped too early
01:47 PM LeelooMinai: Or you have some stepping problem.
01:47 PM enleth: I'd rather suspect a configuration problem
01:47 PM enleth: it's a servo driven mill
01:47 PM LeelooMinai: I have a plan in place to use encoders on my steppers, just for "peace of mind".
01:47 PM LeelooMinai: A, servo, ok.
01:48 PM LeelooMinai: Right, looks weird - as it's pretty symetric.
01:48 PM LeelooMinai: Almost like by design.
01:48 PM enleth: the paths displayed by axis look fine
01:48 PM enleth: paths in the CAM look fine too
01:49 PM enleth: I noticed some jerky movements too, but in a different part of the program
01:49 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I guess servos can have failures too...
01:50 PM LeelooMinai: Or maybe check the couplers?
01:50 PM LeelooMinai: Could be a loose one.
01:50 PM enleth: it's a bridgeport, beefy as fuck
01:50 PM enleth: taperlock pulleys, preloaded bearings, 30mm dia ballscrew
01:51 PM LeelooMinai: Meh, "not my domain" :)
01:51 PM LeelooMinai: Too big, too expensive, too heavy.
01:51 PM enleth: and I'm pretty sure I got no measurable backlash on an indicator when I checked it after reassembly
01:51 PM enleth: so it's got to be a configuration problem
01:52 PM enleth: anyone around experienced with servo tuning?
01:53 PM djdelorie: enleth: I have a lot of bad experiences with servo tuning, does that count? ;-)
01:53 PM LeelooMinai: enleth: In two years I may say "yes, me":)
01:53 PM enleth: LeelooMinai: BTW, it's not really expensive, you can get them really cheap, but it sure is heavy
01:54 PM LeelooMinai: Right, probably becaue people just want to get rid of "the big still rusting monster machine that takes the space".
01:54 PM roycroft: it's so heavy, it's my bridgeport
01:55 PM LeelooMinai: I guess it's good for typical machinists, but not for hobbyists playing with CNC.
01:55 PM roycroft: with apologies to the hollies :)
01:57 PM sync: LeelooMinai: I guess you underestimate the cnc hobbyists
01:57 PM sync: a friend of mine has 7 H&K milling machines
01:57 PM sync: just because they were cheap
01:57 PM LeelooMinai: Bridgeport just riggered a random thing I read yesterday. Seems that China built a $350 million bridge to North Korea, meant for trade, etc., but since North Korea went "full retard" with their missile program recently, it ends in a dirt field on their side and seems like it has been "canceled"...
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: I find it depressing somehow.
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: O, found it: m/image/590cd12e52b5d860008b4c67-1190-625/china-built-a-350-million-bridge-that-ends-in-a-dirt-field-in-north-korea.jpg
01:58 PM LeelooMinai: Meh, http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/590cd12e52b5d860008b4c67-1190-625/china-built-a-350-million-bridge-that-ends-in-a-dirt-field-in-north-korea.jpg
01:59 PM LeelooMinai: And how can one trust any "leaders" in any country.
02:01 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I know people can go "nuts" about their hobbies, but you know, that's just far edge of the bell curve:)
02:02 PM sync: I wouldn't say that
02:02 PM sync: lots of people buy surplus industrial machinery
02:02 PM LeelooMinai: sync: E, I don't trust you - you tend to always counter with some extreme cases:>
02:05 PM LeelooMinai: I guess it's only 100kg - but still, I would guess that a "classic" machinist retireing or something, is more likely to buy such thing than younger CNC enthusiast.
02:05 PM LeelooMinai: 1000
02:06 PM LeelooMinai: It's pretty old-school.
02:06 PM enleth: LeelooMinai: technically speaking, I'm a software developer
02:06 PM LeelooMinai: So am I, but never thought about bridgeport:)
02:07 PM enleth: it just so happens I own over 3t of industrial equipment
02:07 PM LeelooMinai: You must have a big garage:)
02:08 PM LeelooMinai: Since I cannot imagine anyone putting a bridgeport in a normal basement...
02:08 PM LeelooMinai: Unless they make a hole in the house or something.
02:09 PM sync: they do
02:09 PM LeelooMinai: Make holes? :p
02:09 PM sync: yes
02:10 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, I guess they are also single and look a bit insane to everyone around them:p
02:10 PM sync: no
02:10 PM sync: not much you can do when you want to have a mh400 in your cellar
02:11 PM LeelooMinai: I imagine youi need to make some kind of ramp and just take part of the wall out - sounds wonderful.
02:11 PM LeelooMinai: Probably digging into the ground too for that ramp...
02:12 PM LeelooMinai: "that's not normal"
02:13 PM sync: well, in europe cellars are usually fully below ground level
02:13 PM sync: so yes, you dig a hole
02:13 PM LeelooMinai: Mine is about half or so - maybe 2/3
02:13 PM sync: put a hole in the wall and use a crane to lift the machine into the hole
02:13 PM LeelooMinai: lol, and then what - drop it so it falls on the floor? :)
02:14 PM enleth: LeelooMinai: I keep that stuff in a hackerspace
02:14 PM LeelooMinai: My bedroom is the hackerspace:)
02:15 PM LeelooMinai: I guess I am a hobbit - cannot imagine going to some social place any time I need to make something.
02:15 PM sync: no, you cast a slab at the same height as your floor
02:16 PM sync: and then you use hydraulic machinery casters to position it
02:16 PM sync: and then you use it
02:16 PM sync: you can also close the wall and the hole then
02:17 PM LeelooMinai: "A Bridgeport machine requires a surprising amount of clearance in the surrounding space to operate, due to the awkward projection of its components and the ways they articulate. The clearance height for the J-head model is 83-1/2". Bridgeport's floor plan specifies a 63" front-to-back space for the 12-inch knee model, and 75-1/2" of width for the 42" table. If you have CNC controls or a power feed on the table, then with some
02:17 PM LeelooMinai: room for a human operator, you're up to about an 8-by-8 foot floor-space envelope dedicated to the operation of this machine. Add cabinets for tooling, and perhaps a CNC computer rack, and you're at roughly 100 square feet. Given the costs of industrial space, housing "Santa Claus" (he who makes stuff you wish for) is going to impose a true cost on the order of $1000/year, something to consider if you have only casual business
02:17 PM LeelooMinai: uses or hobby applications in mind."
02:18 PM LeelooMinai: "no, thx"
02:18 PM sync: it is not that bad
02:18 PM sync: the only annoying thing is the height
02:19 PM t12: i might try and fit one in a shipping container
02:19 PM sync: but I would not consider a bridgeport anyway due to the lack in rigidity
02:19 PM t12: 8x8 is just right in that case
02:19 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I know you are doing it on purpose, you troll:)
02:20 PM sync: it is true, the bridgeport is a glorified drillpress
02:20 PM LeelooMinai: "lack of rigidity"
02:21 PM LeelooMinai: I have a drillpress in my room - does not really seem comparable somehow.
02:22 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, Tormach 1100 is half the weight.
02:22 PM sync: just compare it to say, a deckel fp3
02:22 PM sync: the bridgeport is nice due to the adjustments you can make, but it is not a rigid machine by any stretch
02:23 PM djdelorie: your standards for "rigid" are very different than mine... ;-)
02:24 PM LeelooMinai: sync: I think we live in different CNC worlds:)
02:26 PM LeelooMinai: If I was going for a big CNC, and had means to even handle it, I would just save for Tormach - at least it's a CNC-CNC:)
02:26 PM sync: it is just a f45 basically
02:27 PM sync: which is an okay platform to make a cnc from
02:27 PM sync: I have the same machine in my cellar
02:27 PM roycroft: is a live center less accurate than a dead center, generally, or do folks avoid live centers because they're bulkier than dead centers?
02:27 PM roycroft: or is there some other reason that dead centers are generally preferred?
02:28 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe they are dead on:)
02:28 PM sync: in theory it is less accurate, but I guess people use it for old times sake
02:28 PM sync: djdelorie: rigid starts when you can take 20mm cuts with a 250mm face mill
02:29 PM roycroft: dead centers are cheaper than live centers, but the first time you forget to use the high pressure grease and overheat one the cost advantage goes away
02:30 PM djdelorie: that is way outside my range :-)
02:30 PM djdelorie: but then again, my cnc machine is made of plywood...
02:31 PM LeelooMinai: It's still a CNC machine:)
02:31 PM djdelorie: oh sure, just not in that class of "rigid"
02:32 PM Loetmichel_: djdelorie: plywood can be surprisingly rigid
02:32 PM Loetmichel_: and doesent tend to "ring"...
02:32 PM Loetmichel_: i know, i build things like these: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11205&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:32 PM djdelorie: depends on how you design it. The biggest flex I have is in the uprights for the X gantry
02:33 PM SpeedEvil: Plywood is 'worse' than wood - but it's all in the shape. It doesn't take much for the right shape to win
02:33 PM djdelorie: because they're not box forms
02:33 PM Loetmichel_: SpeedEvil: actually it isnt
02:33 PM SpeedEvil: 'worse' in terms of youngs modulus along the axis
02:33 PM Loetmichel_: "real" wood is only rigid in one direction
02:33 PM djdelorie: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_3080.html
02:33 PM Loetmichel_: SpeedEvil: ONE axis
02:33 PM djdelorie: and made the mistake of drilling 1" holes for 25mm guide rods :-P
02:34 PM LeelooMinai: plywood is a laminate and the cross the grains, so it should be better.
02:34 PM LeelooMinai: the=they
02:34 PM SpeedEvil: depending on the design
02:34 PM JT-Mobile- is now known as JT-Mobile
02:34 PM roycroft: plywood is superior to solid wood for many applications
02:34 PM JT-Mobile: looks good to me :)
02:34 PM djdelorie: plywood is more stable, but not stronger, than hardwood
02:34 PM LeelooMinai: Well, you would design to take advantage of the material I hope
02:34 PM Loetmichel_: djdelorie: your gantry isnt boxed. big fault.
02:34 PM Loetmichel_: but otherwise: not that bad
02:34 PM djdelorie: yup, but that machine's purpose was "to learn how to make cnc machines"
02:35 PM djdelorie: over the weekend I tore out the electronics and drivers (blown bldc driver board) and replaced it all with steppers (for now)
02:35 PM djdelorie: I'll build another one eventually :-)
02:35 PM djdelorie: I'm not done learning from my mistakes yet ;-)
02:36 PM LeelooMinai: Well, seems like it did not cost you much at least:)
02:36 PM roycroft: baltic birch plywood is great for shop fixtures
02:36 PM roycroft: it has more plies than domestic plywood, and is made of hardwood
02:36 PM roycroft: and is void-free
02:37 PM djdelorie: I don't think it cost me anything, other than parts for the driver boards
02:37 PM djdelorie: and that's not baltic, it's B grade hardwood ply. It's what I happen to have sitting around the shop
02:37 PM roycroft: the only drawback (and only in the eyes of some) is that the sheets are 1525mm square
02:38 PM roycroft: what you have laying around is always the first choice, when feasible :)
02:38 PM * LeelooMinai imagines djdelorie getting drunk a bit over the weekend, waking up sunday morning, going to the basement and saying "O, I built a CNC!?"
02:39 PM djdelorie: I don't drink, but my memory is bad enough that that might happen anyway...
02:45 PM Loetmichel_: djdelorie: i always use marine plywood because it has waterproof glue
02:45 PM Loetmichel_: so a spill of a bit of cooling fluid isnt a drama
02:45 PM djdelorie: it doesn't rain in my basement...
02:45 PM djdelorie: and I mill wood, so I wouldn't use cooling fluid anyway
02:46 PM djdelorie: plus my electronics are under the table, so water = bad :-)
02:46 PM djdelorie: but... noted ;-)
02:47 PM Loetmichel_: it also doesent react to air humidity changes with changing of shape
02:47 PM Loetmichel_: which is a plus if your cellar isnt in a climate controlled enviroment ;)
02:47 PM djdelorie: mine has more wobble than humidity would ever cause, but my cellar is somewhat climate controlled
02:48 PM Loetmichel_: i always place the electonics IN the base
02:49 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7180
02:49 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7177
02:50 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:51 PM Loetmichel_: s/always/whenever possible
02:52 PM djdelorie: mine used to be upside-down under the bed: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2579.html
02:52 PM djdelorie: but once I put the base on and couldn't just flip it up, working on it became really annoying
02:53 PM djdelorie: so this time around I built a back wall for the electronics (no photos yet, still installing)
02:53 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel_: Why do those pictures have titles like verlust_dick1? :)
02:53 PM Loetmichel_: LeelooMinai: new (thick)sacrificial plate glued on
02:54 PM Loetmichel_: the last one
02:55 PM LeelooMinai: lol, dick = heavy in German?
02:55 PM Loetmichel_: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4821&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- thats how it looked before the glueing action
02:55 PM Loetmichel_: thick
02:55 PM LeelooMinai: Right, fail - I would avoid it, unless you want your site end up flagged as some XXX one:)
02:55 PM Loetmichel_: hrhr
02:56 PM Loetmichel_: if some algorithm isnt able do take language into account: be my guest.
02:56 PM Loetmichel_: this site has no ads, so no renevue lost when it gets indexed
02:56 PM LeelooMinai: Is that VFD on z-axis? That's weird...
02:57 PM Loetmichel_: yes, i had problems with the EMI filter
02:57 PM Loetmichel_: blew the houses RCD
02:57 PM Loetmichel_: so i had to deactivate it
02:57 PM LeelooMinai: Probably not a good idea to have it there:)
02:57 PM Loetmichel_: but then the thing makes so much noise on the motor cables that i had to shorthen them as much as possible
02:57 PM Loetmichel_: ;)
02:58 PM LeelooMinai: The vibrations will probably slaughter big caps, etc. inside.
02:58 PM Loetmichel_: no
02:58 PM Loetmichel_: worked well for at least 8 years
02:58 PM LeelooMinai: Well, why do you think they use blobs of glue to keep caps from vibrating? :) Probably got lucky...
02:59 PM Loetmichel_: then the new owner managed to blow one stepper driver and his best idea was to simply deactivate it and the stepper and rely on the sync-belt between the two y ballscrewy
02:59 PM Loetmichel_: for weeks on end
02:59 PM LeelooMinai: I droped my bluetooth phones one and one surface-mounted ferrite just fall off:)
02:59 PM Loetmichel_: after a while said belt broke and it ripped the gantry apart
02:59 PM LeelooMinai: fell off*
03:00 PM Loetmichel_: Omron VFDs arent cheap chinese (more like expensive japanese)
03:00 PM Loetmichel_: they cope well with vibrations
03:00 PM Loetmichel_: aside from that: THERE IS NOT MUCH in terms of vibration
03:01 PM LeelooMinai: Right, just saying - I would never even think of doing that.
03:01 PM Loetmichel_: that motor there is massive and is really well dynamically balanced
03:02 PM Loetmichel_: the onyl problem i had in the years with that VFD was it trowing errors from time to time and shut down... ripped a few hairs out searching for the cause
03:03 PM Loetmichel_: until i got too close to the dust hose there with my nose while milling FR4
03:03 PM Loetmichel_: ... and got a nasty shock and about 20mm arc into my nose... and the error appeared again ;
03:04 PM Loetmichel_: ... was easy remedied then by winding some steel wire around the flexible hose and connecting it to ground ;)
03:04 PM LeelooMinai: The hose is live?
03:05 PM enleth: sync: there are rigid bridgeports, the CNC models
03:05 PM LeelooMinai: What kind of vaccum cleaner is that:)
03:05 PM Loetmichel_: dry glass dust high speed inside plastic hose...
03:05 PM Loetmichel_: best HV generator you can think of
03:05 PM enleth: sync: rigid ram, wider column, beefier knee and saddle
03:05 PM LeelooMinai: A, right, I would not approach any electronics with vacuum cleaner.
03:06 PM enleth: sync: but you lose some weird adjustment possibilities
03:06 PM Loetmichel_: just static electicity
03:06 PM Loetmichel_: but LOADS of that
03:13 PM sync: enleth: the cncs are not incredibly rigid either
03:57 PM Crom: big slug of cast iron, ain't cast iron, it's mystry steel. I'll have to get Scooby to figure it out
03:57 PM roycroft: grind on it
03:57 PM Crom: mill scale is NASTY!!!!!!
03:57 PM roycroft: try to heat treat it
03:58 PM Crom: hard on inserts!
03:59 PM Crom: it was acting like it was case hardened as well... I think it was the handy slug to put something on and heat it up thing...
04:00 PM XXCoder: Crom: maybe also hammer hardened and such? heh
04:00 PM Crom: only took 5 tips...
04:00 PM Crom: wasn't pounded on...
04:02 PM Crom: I got it to 99% descaled, ends are mostly flast
04:05 PM Crom: I so need an English wheel right now...
04:08 PM roycroft: one that goes on the right side of the dashboard?
04:24 PM Crom: for forming metal...
04:26 PM XXCoder: got a grinder?
04:30 PM Deejay: gn8
04:30 PM Crom: several
04:30 PM Crom: nite Deejay
04:31 PM Crom: if I could find my planishing hammer set I'd be happier
04:31 PM Crom: found them
05:11 PM dioz: planishing hammer. pneumatic or what?
05:12 PM dioz: what size is it?
05:13 PM dioz: i've used a 1500pounder
05:14 PM dioz: nothing too crazy
05:56 PM X704 is now known as tiwake
05:58 PM LeelooMinai: Got my KBC package with Starret straight edge and random stuff. Like 3 litte scrapers, made in India:)
05:59 PM LeelooMinai: On is normal looking and one triangular and one looks lika a narrow tongue - probably I will only be interested in the normal, square one.
06:06 PM LeelooMinai: Which reminds me: I watched that video where they had scraping class, and wondered why after having the piece "done" in terms of what they were supposed to achieve with the tool, wouldn't they take some abrassive stone, paste, whatever and make it flat. I mean I know that it's supposed to be flat over larger areas, so smaller areas do not have to be, but couldn't they achieve both, that is having it flat over large and small
06:06 PM LeelooMinai: areas?
06:10 PM roycroft: you want those little voids, in most cases, to hold oil
06:10 PM roycroft: and if you carefully scrape a surface, as soon as you touch it with a stone you've undone all your hard work
06:11 PM roycroft: when you look at higher end machines that have flaked tables/ways, the reason for that is to hold oil - they are scraped and then intentionally flaked
06:11 PM roycroft: flaking being putting little indentations in a flat surface
06:12 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I don't know... What if you used surface table and some aabbrasive that would not touch the granite, but steel?
06:12 PM LeelooMinai: Surface plate that is
06:12 PM roycroft: you again do not want most surfaces to be perfectly flat like that
06:13 PM roycroft: put a table on top of a saddle where the dovetails are prefectly smooth and flat and the weight of the table will squeeze all the oil out
06:13 PM roycroft: i should say, you do not want them perfectly smooth
06:14 PM LeelooMinai: Right, ok, I get that if you need oil, etc. that is the case, but, I don't know - what if youscrape stainless steel (if it's possible even,) or some other material, that is not supposed to be oiled.
06:14 PM roycroft: also, once a surface is scraped to spec, any further work done to make it smoother is 100% a waste of time
06:14 PM roycroft: and time is money
06:15 PM roycroft: that's a minor reason for the hobbiests on the channel
06:15 PM LeelooMinai: I was thinking if I can make small surfaces flat - for z touch plate for example.
06:16 PM roycroft: also, flaking looks really cool if it's done well :)
06:16 PM LeelooMinai: And that I would rather want to be flat-flat, and oil is not an issue.
06:17 PM roycroft: nobody and nothing is stopping you from doing that
06:17 PM LeelooMinai: Somehow I thought I could scrap a little circle, then maybe finish it on a surface plate or something like that.
06:17 PM roycroft: but keep in mind that not every surface needs to be as smooth as a telescope lens
06:17 PM LeelooMinai: Well, ok, I know, but I don't want to do something silly and destructive to my plate for example.
06:18 PM roycroft: you scrape until it's good enough for your use
06:18 PM roycroft: and don't need to scrape beyond that
06:19 PM roycroft: if you scrape your touch plate to 50 microns it will still be an irregular surface, but will not affect the accuracy of your touch offs at all
06:19 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, I know that for production, etc. it's the case. I guess I was thinking more if scraping and then lapping makes sense.
06:19 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: What do you mean - if it will be off by 50 microns, it will be pretty bad.
06:20 PM LeelooMinai: You cannot really predict how the endmill will be positioned when it touches it.
06:20 PM roycroft: your surface plate will be at 50 microns
06:21 PM roycroft: you can't lap better than your reference
06:21 PM LeelooMinai: Er, what kind of surface plate is 50 microns:/
06:21 PM roycroft: unless you have two references, and lap them and your part all to each other
06:21 PM LeelooMinai: All I have seen are 1/10th inch - that's 2.5 microns.
06:22 PM LeelooMinai: 1/10th mil that was*
06:23 PM roycroft: er, sorry, i was thinking millionths of an inch, and said microns
06:23 PM roycroft: 50 millionths is good enough for your touch plate
06:24 PM LeelooMinai: Of course I don't even yet know if it's viable, as I do not know from what material make it:)
06:24 PM LeelooMinai: Since I guess it cannot be scratched by carbide.
06:25 PM LeelooMinai: I am guessing some ceramic would be bestm but that's non-metallic and not srappable.
06:25 PM Tom_L: i got a gage for using as a touch plate
06:25 PM LeelooMinai: But on the other hand, I saw some Chinese contraptions and they were made from... something.
06:26 PM Tom_L: they are rather flat by nature
06:26 PM LeelooMinai: Well, but gage will scratch too.
06:26 PM Tom_L: of course
06:27 PM CaptHindsight: for real precision work you don't want the linear bearings having contact with them selves, they should float on a cushion of air vs the micro mountain peaks and oil
06:27 PM LeelooMinai: So, that's bad... no? :) I mean if each time you do touch off you scratch a crater of half a mil, seems to me it will end bad.
06:27 PM Tom_L: i got one and told them i didn't need certifictaion papers so it was cheaper
06:28 PM Tom_L: are you doing work that requires that accuracy anyway?
06:28 PM CaptHindsight: how accurate are larger and heavier machines anyway that aren't practical for air bearings?
06:28 PM LeelooMinai: It's more of a hobby about the tools itself, so I have no "endgoal", no, but, want to get best results.
06:28 PM Tom_L: and if you are, have you accounted for it heating up during the day?
06:29 PM LeelooMinai: well, my room is more or less constant temperature, so I don't really worry about things like that.
06:29 PM CaptHindsight: carbide ways with heavy oil
06:30 PM Tom_L: LeelooMinai, even so... i ran an Okuma lathe in a climate controlled shop and could see the parts change tolerance throughout the day as the machine heated up
06:30 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, so, I guess my simplified question would be from what they make z-touch off surfaces anyways.
06:31 PM Tom_L: spring loaded
06:31 PM LeelooMinai: No, I mean the surface itself - what material is it.
06:31 PM Tom_L: ferrous metal
06:31 PM LeelooMinai: The flat place that you touch with the endmill.
06:31 PM CaptHindsight: plasma welded nano diamonds on the ways would be nice
06:32 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: And they don't worry that you will make contact with it with something like carbide tip?
06:32 PM Tom_L: that's why it's spring loaded
06:33 PM LeelooMinai: I mean if you do that 1000 times, this cannot be good...
06:33 PM CaptHindsight: what you really have to do is an analysis of what the machine will need to do, for how long and for what cost
06:33 PM LeelooMinai: CaptHindsight: Go away:) I am not running a factory:p
06:33 PM Tom_L: yes parts wear out. replace them.
06:33 PM Tom_L: that falls under proper machine maintenance
06:34 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I don't know - I feel bad about it somehow. Spring or not.
06:34 PM Tom_L: so if the surface is harder than the tool which will chip first?
06:35 PM Tom_L: which needs to not chip first?
06:35 PM CaptHindsight: oh ooh oh I know
06:35 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: It's not a problem:) I mean the tool will be massacred much more by the milling.
06:36 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm... Maybe I should just do it the optical way.
06:36 PM Tom_L: i don't touch off anyway
06:36 PM LeelooMinai: That will not wear off, ever:)
06:37 PM LeelooMinai: But again, a bit of chicken egg problem.
06:38 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: How so?
06:38 PM roycroft: whenever i get my cnc conversion done on my mill/drill i intend to use the tormach toolholding system
06:38 PM roycroft: and not go around touching off my tooling all the time
06:38 PM Tom_L: i do it manually
06:38 PM roycroft: that works too
06:38 PM LeelooMinai: Right, not happening with my Er11-capable spindle.
06:38 PM Tom_L: with some type of height gage
06:38 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: Lame:)
06:39 PM Tom_L: saves all this frustration
06:39 PM roycroft: it potentially could, leeloominai
06:39 PM LeelooMinai: What can be automated, shall be automated - says the 3rd Rule of, well, something.
06:39 PM roycroft: although you would have to make something
06:39 PM roycroft: and that would be difficult without a lathe
06:40 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Did not find one system for that small spindle, so my guess it's not really sane.
06:41 PM LeelooMinai: Everything nice seems to start at 1/2 inch - capable machines:/
06:41 PM LeelooMinai: 1/2 inch tool shaft that is.
06:41 PM LeelooMinai: Including nice endmills/facemills/etc.
06:50 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, US seems to say that they tested their ICMB interceptor system/missile like North Korea is developing and it was successful.
06:51 PM Tom_L: did you expect less?
06:52 PM LeelooMinai: well, it's not that easy to do apparently - otherwise it would be in use all over the world by now. I guess Russians and Isreal must have something equivalent, but not sure.
06:54 PM roycroft: we've been working on that for decades, leeloominai, with very limited success
06:55 PM roycroft: of course, now we have a president who is ordering the military to come up with a "terrific" design, and i'm sure that will succeed bigly
06:55 PM LeelooMinai: Right, so if it worked, I guess that's an important news.
06:55 PM LeelooMinai: Right, but he is an idiot, and doubt will be in there for long time.
06:56 PM LeelooMinai: And by "idiot" I mean literally an idiot:)
06:56 PM roycroft: if someone claimed it works, and that someone has any connection to the white house, it's almost certainly a lie
06:57 PM LeelooMinai: Well, it is Pentagon, and they have shown some footage, etc. I don't know - it seems legitimate as far as things nowadays go.
06:57 PM LeelooMinai: article/us-usa-northkorea-missiletest-idUSKBN18Q2CU
06:57 PM LeelooMinai: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-northkorea-missiletest-idUSKBN18Q2CU
06:59 PM LeelooMinai: It's more or less like shootiing something in space I think, because otherwise it's too late.
07:10 PM Crom: There was the patriot anti missle.. one little bug... you had to reboot it every 45 minutes... so batteries coordinated reboot times...
07:13 PM Crom: just noticed.. my under table shafts are 16mm
07:33 PM tiwake: Crom: the Patriot was a surface to air missile... I don't think it was designed for knocking out other missiles
07:34 PM Crom: they were using it to shoot down scud missles
07:35 PM roycroft: i think you can use a slingshot to shoot down a scud missile
07:35 PM tiwake: oh scuds, yeah... those are kinda big and slow
07:35 PM roycroft: but the best way to avoid being hit by a scud missile is to stand directly in its intended target zone
07:36 PM tiwake: the V2 had better accuracy
07:36 PM Crom: ok got grub screws hold linear bearing in place... I got 3mm, should have gotten 4mm's
07:37 PM roycroft: birds aiming their poop at windshields of moving cars have better accuracy
07:37 PM Crom: tiwake: oh course it was german not chineseum
07:38 PM tiwake: Crom: still... scuds came much later and was not pioneering engineering and physics...
07:39 PM Crom: heck an arduino would make a better tergeting computer...
07:39 PM tiwake: well yeah
07:39 PM SpeedEvil: I recall reports of patriot -> quadcopter
07:40 PM tiwake: Crom: the SaturnV had a pre-programed flight path, because the computers could not calculate it fast enough
07:40 PM tiwake: a microAVR would be much better for both these days
07:41 PM tiwake: I'd suggest an ATmega, but the chinese are too cheap
07:41 PM Crom: they would use a 8051...
07:42 PM Crom: which is still a good chip
07:43 PM tiwake: I think I'm going to go to the bank tomorrow and see if they will loan me $5,000 to pay off one of my student loans (the higher interest one)
07:44 PM tiwake: with a little left over for a new server, so I can move the data on my old server to my new server so I can use the old server for a CNC machine controller
07:44 PM tiwake: so I can make more money
07:46 PM Crom: ok backto sewing...
08:05 PM roycroft: my 4 jaw chuck has arrived
08:06 PM roycroft: it was packed in a mini-crate made of cheap plywood
08:06 PM roycroft: and the crate was fastened together with galvanized staples that are about 4cm long
08:06 PM roycroft: it took me a long time to open the crate, and there are wood chip all over and around my workbench now
09:08 PM Crom: you wrap aluminium tape around and open it with the plasma cutter
09:15 PM SpeedEvil: Crom: Are you AvE?
09:18 PM Crom: heh... I loved that when he did it..
09:42 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:47 PM LeelooMinai: Fail: https://www.lowes.ca/household-tool-sets/gedore-extensive-325-piece-module-tool-set_g1460348.html?SearchTerm=m5-nut