#linuxcnc Logs
May 16 2017
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:13 AM IchGucksLive: morning from germany
01:18 AM IchGucksLive: till later
02:18 AM Deejay: moin
03:18 AM justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser
04:55 AM Loetmichel: hurrhurr... co-worker just called out to me: "loet, can you help? i have lumbago again and it says '35kg, 3 people' on this HP laserprinter... so i movend over, looked for the handles on it, lifted it out of the carton, moved it into the measurement chamber, placed it on the second paper tray already in there. All while telleing the co-worker:" no, we dont need the other worker, i can do that
04:55 AM Loetmichel: perfectly well alone, thanks."... why am i surrounded by wooly academics and weaklings?
04:55 AM gcardinal: If I use regular stepper drivers, should I use commanded or actual for POSITION_FEEDBACK?
04:58 AM gcardinal: Or better quastion would be what is POSITION_FEEDBACK option and what it means in practice?
05:08 AM jthornton: morning
05:10 AM archivist_herron: gcardinal, not clear exactly what you are doing or trying to do
05:10 AM jthornton: gcardinal: if your talking about the selection in Axis it is just a display difference
05:10 AM gcardinal: jthornton ahh okay, thanks. yes it ini configuration
06:56 AM yaqwsx: Hi guys, can I have a quick question regarding Hostmot2 FW?
06:56 AM yaqwsx: Does the PWMGen (not 3-phase PWMGen) generate dead-time? If so, is it adjustible?
07:01 AM vuko_ is now known as vuko
07:02 AM rmu: yaqwsx: what do you mean with dead-time in the context of one-phase-PWM ?
07:03 AM rmu: s/one-phase/single channel/
07:03 AM yaqwsx: rmu: According to manual, it can generate signals for the up/down parts of a half-bridge. And there has to be a dead-time to avoid though-shot
07:07 AM Loetmichel: maaan, sometimes i should measure twice before milling... scanned the circuit mat of the keyboard, drawn the two shielding brass sheets... milled them... 2mm too small in x on each side. i wonder how i managed that?... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16631&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
08:36 AM gcardinal: If I only getting started and are very unsure about my setup, can I start with MIN_FERROR = 0.2 or is it too high?..
08:43 AM cradek: yeah that tuning is bad if that's mm and really terrible if inches
08:43 AM cradek: are you tuning servos?
08:47 AM gcardinal: nopp, stepper drivers - so I dont really understand the meaning of it in sense of stepper drivers
09:03 AM gcardinal: Maybe there is a sample of working metric configuration for a mini-mill type of machine?
09:05 AM archivist_herron: use the stepconf to build a sample for your machine
09:08 AM gcardinal: I did - but I got stuff like PID for servo config, STEPGEN_MAXVEL which in documentation it says is not used anymore. and for metric configuration in general I just dont know what values to replace
09:10 AM gregcnc: are you getting errors with 0.2?
09:11 AM gcardinal: and in documentation I get confused by stuff like "The following are custom INI file entries that you may find in a sample INI file or a wizard generated file. These are not used by the LinuxCNC software. "
09:11 AM gcardinal: not used like they dont have any effect?..
09:12 AM gcardinal: Currently biggest problem is tripping maxvel of some sort somewhere - so when I try to run code and Z moves to quickly linuxcnc goes into error mode
09:13 AM gcardinal: I would like to understand and to have a set of parameters which are essential for my machine - from the config I got generated there is many entries which are not in use - so im tryint to clean it up
09:20 AM gcardinal: maybe there is same known sample configs on github or other places like that?
09:20 AM gcardinal: here is myin https://github.com/bergstar/linuxcnc
09:49 AM IchGucksLive: hi all fro a sunny summer day in germany
09:57 AM Todd_Z: gcardinal: Where did you read the PID stuff wasn't needed anymore?
09:58 AM Todd_Z: It is used by Linuxcnc to control the hardware stepgenerator in the Mesa hardware.
09:58 AM Todd_Z: You should put all that stuff back in your ini file.
10:07 AM pcw_home: yaqwsx: only the 3 phase PWMgen has dead time options (since it supports highside/lowside drive outputs)
10:10 AM pcw_home: The PID system has significantly better performance than the drivers built-in position mode
10:10 AM pcw_home: especially WRT servo thread jitter
10:27 AM yaqwsx: pcw_home: Ok, thanks
10:52 AM chopper791: Morning afternoon everyone.
11:00 AM pcw_home: yaqwsx: you could use a 3 phase PWMGen for single phase and gain the deadtime option (just make a pinout that only has output A)
11:04 AM yaqwsx: pcw_home: I will probably solve it on a driver side.
11:34 AM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel: Why on earth did you mill that pice just to insert into some inexpensive looking keyboard? :)
11:43 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, RF screening
11:49 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: Looks like some overkill - my first thought was it is to make it more rigid, but still overkill...
11:50 AM archivist: RF has many ways to escape, the company does high spec screening for military etc
11:50 AM Loetmichel: LeelooMinai: because i make Tempest-proof IT tech for a living. its shielding so noone can read the data from the keypresses via air gap.
11:50 AM LeelooMinai: A, ok, military stuff - that explains it:)
11:50 AM Loetmichel: yes
11:50 AM LeelooMinai: I thought it's your keyboard:)
11:51 AM Loetmichel: more like "services" than military, but archivist had the right idea ;)
11:51 AM archivist: seeekwets
11:51 AM LeelooMinai: My elephant memory somewhere tells me that you may be the guy that was telling stories about how they use typewriters in tanks? :)
11:51 AM Loetmichel: its the prototype of a new series. have to see if i can get it to spec easily. The one we used 'til now is no longer aviable. End of life
11:52 AM LeelooMinai: Or was it matrix printers...
11:52 AM Loetmichel: matrix printers
11:52 AM Loetmichel: we still sell that one model occasionally
11:53 AM LeelooMinai: Must be weird sitting in a tank and suddenly you hear a matrix printer doing "bzzzs"
11:53 AM Loetmichel: boss came down to the production floor a week ago and talked to one of my underlings:"alex, be happy! a customer ordered half a dozen more of the Cobra printers!"
11:53 AM Loetmichel: ... cue extremly sad face of alex :-)
11:54 AM archivist: still has a job
11:54 AM Loetmichel: (that think is a PITA to manufacture, is totally overengineered)
11:54 AM LeelooMinai: He will be "Alex the Cobra printer" guy for the rest of his life though.
11:54 AM Loetmichel: he is
11:55 AM Loetmichel: because he is the only remaining guy who knows how to build them (me aside, i am the production manager, i have already too much on my desk)
11:55 AM LeelooMinai: Like one of those cobol programmers they keep in basements, because no one else knows how to maintain that software:)
11:57 AM jdh: I did some pdp-11 asm this week.
11:57 AM Loetmichel: alex is 62 now... already has his russian retirement plan active... only a matter of time until he will retire here also... funny if anyone orders cobras then ;)
11:58 AM archivist: jdh might have a bit of info :) http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=pdp11
11:59 AM jdh: impressive!
12:00 PM jdh: sadly, I still remember all I need to know for this.
12:00 PM LeelooMinai: Er, what is the normal practice for having vise jaw corner mapped into G54 coordinates? I mean I did it yesterday, which was painful, since I had to use edge finder, but then, after power off, etc. I don't think I can rely on what is stored in linuxcnc variables, no?
12:00 PM archivist: jdh most of the microfiche I have is still not catalogued
12:00 PM cradek: sure you can, if you have accurate homing
12:01 PM cradek: those offsets are kept until you change them
12:01 PM LeelooMinai: I don't think microswitches count as accurate...
12:01 PM cradek: test them and see
12:01 PM archivist: some are
12:01 PM cradek: don't guess
12:02 PM archivist: some are just plain good, others have specifications
12:02 PM LeelooMinai: I mean, sure I can test them, but I know the construction, so I don't think it's a good permanent solution anyways.
12:02 PM archivist: within a thou probably
12:03 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I guess ideally one would want some kind of scale that remembers position of rails after poweroff...
12:03 PM LeelooMinai: Or battery powered.
12:03 PM jdh: how about a hall switch seeing the edge of a coupler or something in series with the microswitch
12:04 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I will solve it in the future, and there are many ways to do it better than microswitch - just was wondering what is normal practice.
12:05 PM jdh: switch + Z pulse from encoder
12:06 PM LeelooMinai: Encoder on a servo?
12:06 PM pcw_mesa: Yes if you have encoders, homing to index is the standard way
12:07 PM LeelooMinai: A, right, index - I have no index on my encoder - I assume it's the "one per revolution" special pulse?
12:07 PM pcw_mesa: Yes
12:08 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I just realized that it all could be done by encoder that remembers the pulses.
12:08 PM LeelooMinai: Since it's coupled permanently to the ballscrew, so that would be reliable.
12:09 PM LeelooMinai: Er...
12:10 PM LeelooMinai: ... but if I will have those encoders on steppers, even if linuxcncn remembers those pulses that's fine... even without index. I could just store the count.
12:10 PM LeelooMinai: That could be reliable too, unless OS crashes or something catastrophic like that.
12:13 PM pcw_mesa: you will lose the count if you exit LinuxCNC
12:13 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: Well, I assume you can add something there that will store it and reload programatically - a hal component or something.
12:15 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: Once you deenergize the steppers and reenergize them they will jump to different position. This makes your stored count useless.
12:15 PM pcw_mesa: I thinkAndy Pugh did something like that (with resolvers) but with quadrature encoders you are likelyto lose counts when the system is not watching
12:15 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: I was going to mention that, but the encoder should not care about that.
12:15 PM pcw_mesa: (which is why quadrature encoder systems almost always home to index)
12:16 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: What do you mean system is not watching... But your Mesa card will:)
12:16 PM chopper791: Should not, but if you were stored count of let say 2000 pulses and the stepper jumped 6 pulses that is a decent error. Like pcw_mesa: stated quadrature with index will remove that issue.
12:17 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: But if the stepper jumped 6 pulses. so will the encoder...
12:17 PM pcw_mesa: Yes as long as its powered but linuxCNC assumes the count is volatile and always zeros the low level count at startup
12:18 PM pcw_mesa: Index is the best way (or absolute encoders but they are $$)
12:18 PM chopper791: fromt the stored value.... which means that your pysical position has changed but the stored value remaines the same.
12:18 PM skunkworks_: pcw_home, does the panel interface board count the encoders when linuxcncn isn't running?
12:18 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: But in the card it's stored in a non-volatile way?
12:19 PM chopper791: Grab some quaratures with index. They are dirt cheap and will do the job as well.
12:19 PM pcw_mesa: well ist volatile to power failure
12:19 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: But do you use flash for things like that or what?
12:19 PM pcw_mesa: skunkworks: yes
12:19 PM skunkworks_: pcw_home, cool :)
12:20 PM skunkworks_: I didn't try it
12:20 PM pcw_mesa: LeelooMinai: no, the count is in a FPGA register
12:20 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: When people on IRC say things are cheap it may mean diffrent things, I learned:)
12:20 PM chopper791: skunkworks: I do that when using my knee mill and handles. Just turn off the servos and manual machine away. use the readout in lcnc as a DRO
12:21 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: Right, ok, I guess something would need to grab it using hall before the linuxcnc runs and store after it exis - maybe in some script that wraps around the linuxcnc launch.
12:21 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: I am a cheap person with little money
12:21 PM roycroft: i try to post a number, and let others decide if it's cheap or not
12:21 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: Ok, so, you are talking aliexpress or something?
12:22 PM chopper791: us digital
12:22 PM chopper791: https://www.usdigital.com/
12:22 PM skunkworks_: chopper791, This is a little different. The panel interface board (I use for the jog wheels) keeps the count from restarts of linuxcnc - I was wondering if it actually counted when linuxcnc wasn't loaded
12:22 PM chopper791: got ya
12:23 PM skunkworks_: but - yes - it is awesome to power down the machine but keep linuxcnc up counting encoders. we have machines up for weeks that way
12:23 PM * LeelooMinai opens the page and thinks, "right, this will not be cheap"
12:23 PM chopper791: same here
12:24 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:24 PM LeelooMinai: Only $300 per one - that's dirt cheap indeed considering mine was sub $20:p
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: its ok on encoders but not needed on hobbiists issues
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: especial on stepepr cheeses
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: may conider a G703
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: or on a EF mashine
12:27 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: you must be looking for the exspensive ones.
12:28 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: I looked at the absolute one - I see other are cheaper.
12:28 PM chopper791: Absolutes will cost. Go incrimental then they are 30 -50 each
12:28 PM IchGucksLive: force that may break your bit will not loose steps
12:28 PM chopper791: Here is another
12:28 PM pcw_mesa: Yeah for about $200 you can get a very clever batteryless absolute encoder
12:28 PM chopper791: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMT102-V-Programmable-quadrature-encoder-/201895278170?hash=item2f01e5765a:g:CgkAAOSwnHZYjVnR
12:28 PM LeelooMinai: The absolute one seems to have varying width of marks on the disk - I guess they use them to know at what point they are.
12:29 PM chopper791: I ave used the ebay ones.... They work but not as well as the us digital ones in the long run.
12:29 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: indexing
12:31 PM pcw_mesa: the AMT capacitive encoders have known issues with servo systems (slow response because they have a high interpolation ratio)
12:33 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm... I wonder if one would make a disk with tiny magnetic dots on it and use a hall sensor, if that woul work well.
12:35 PM Loetmichel: LeelooMinai: hall sensors are a bit slow
12:36 PM Loetmichel: car ABS sensors use a similar approach: a big teethed "gear" and an Inductive sensor
12:36 PM Loetmichel: if you use two fast sensors you can make a quadrature encoder without any problem.
12:36 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: what type of accuracy are you shooting for on homing?
12:37 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: Ideally one dude:)
12:37 PM LeelooMinai: O, sorry 1 dude = 10 microns
12:38 PM pcw_mesa: that's a small dude
12:38 PM chopper791: lol
12:38 PM LeelooMinai: So a bit less than 0.5 mil:)
12:38 PM chopper791: You are using ballscrew? Ground or rolled?
12:38 PM LeelooMinai: Chinese ballscrews from ali - 5mm step
12:39 PM IchGucksLive: oh C5 roled
12:39 PM IchGucksLive: the C7 ones may fit your encoder better
12:39 PM LeelooMinai: cold steel rolled?
12:39 PM IchGucksLive: it gets warm on rollin
12:39 PM LeelooMinai: Never checked really, but I thought they are C7
12:40 PM chopper791: Unless the screws are mapped and you have zero other odd ball play in the system then homing to .0003" is not worth a lick
12:41 PM LeelooMinai: Well, doesn't really have to be that ideal - just something that will be more or less as accurate as doing it manually I guess (with edge finder)
12:41 PM IchGucksLive: chopper791: agree but 0,001 on 5 inch wil
12:42 PM chopper791: Understood
12:42 PM chopper791: What type of machine is this LeelooMinai:
12:42 PM skunkworks_: poor mans index.... http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/homesw.jpeg
12:42 PM skunkworks_: it goes click click click when the machine is running :)
12:42 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: A home build contraption - chinese parts, but I made the frame myself.
12:43 PM LeelooMinai: skunkworks_: lol
12:43 PM chopper791: skunkworks_: Thats awesome
12:44 PM skunkworks_: this machine has 2 home switches in parallel.. one on the rail and one on the gear.
12:44 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/33796947444/in/dateposted-public/
12:44 PM skunkworks_: hits the rail - then the one on the gear
12:45 PM skunkworks_: pretty accurate.
12:45 PM LeelooMinai: skunkworks_: Doesn't the clicking drive you mad though? :)
12:45 PM skunkworks_: no.. the router is pretty loud..
12:46 PM LeelooMinai: Also, I would worry that the plastic will eventually wear off or something.
12:46 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: Nice little build.
12:47 PM LeelooMinai: It even seems to work. Milled the first "face" yesterday: https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/34524155392/in/dateposted-public/
12:48 PM LeelooMinai: But now I am sad about needing to find that jaw position again, that's why I was OCDing with that encoder talk.
12:49 PM roycroft: i think it's prudent to always touch off when setting up a job
12:49 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: I use prox sensors for my switches. They repeat to .0005" so I am good with that. Now given I am using lead screws and they are not mapped for lead error. I am able to go over a cut multiple times on multiple linuxcnc restarts and never take any new material off.
12:49 PM chopper791: I am with you on that roycroft:
12:52 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Right, I plan to make my own touch probe, but till then, it's a bit of pita with that edge finder imo. Also, having those sad er11 collets, I have to change the bit with the edge finder, etc. - in the future I will probably come up with solutions to all this, but right now it's a bit annoying.
12:55 PM LeelooMinai: btw, anyone using that NativeCAM thing in practice? I played yesterday with it and got it working on the simulator PC. It even can draw the stock, but there was something weird with the facing op - I could not see the toopath moving in the preview window according to the cut depth.
12:55 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: I admire your desire to get your setup this dialed in. Hats off to you on that!
12:56 PM LeelooMinai: I think I will try loading that NativeCAM on the real machine, take the bit off, and let it mill air or something like that - to see if it's sane.
12:57 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: http://heimwerkermarkt-tretter.de/gears2.html Stepper meads ballscrew with 1.25 force aprove so your 3Nm will put out near 4nm
12:57 PM IchGucksLive: use the mouse to stop the sim at E meets P
12:58 PM LeelooMinai: IchGucksLive: Not sure what is going on there...
12:58 PM IchGucksLive: you can use all combiunations of 1.25 I
12:58 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: do you see 2 gears moving
12:58 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, ok, but what is this for?
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: its the show off like Timingbelt
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: to see as a I 1.25 will make you the perfect steprate
12:59 PM roycroft: keep touching off
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: so 400steps meet Ballscrew 5mm
12:59 PM roycroft: if it's a pain in the butt that will inspire you to get your touch probe sooner :)
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: in metric this means perfect match on Force Speed and Torqe
01:00 PM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Right... It already did sufficiently. Though even with touch probe one needs to put it into the collet:/
01:01 PM roycroft: you need the tormach tooling system
01:01 PM roycroft: or some patience :)
01:01 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, I saw it - nice, but requires proper spindle.
01:02 PM chopper791: roycroft: I would love it if the TTS would fit on a 2.2kw spindle
01:02 PM roycroft: sounds like an opportunity to design something!
01:02 PM IchGucksLive: chopper791: on what speed
01:03 PM IchGucksLive: the standard E-2.2 has 2840 Rpm
01:03 PM chopper791: What are you asking about
01:03 PM IchGucksLive: the China ones at 24K
01:04 PM IchGucksLive: the TTS will n ot hold a standard E-motor
01:05 PM LeelooMinai: Reminds me that rather scary guy on youtube - robrenz? I thought I have OCD, but I once watched a video that was half an hour of him making some tooling, calculations, and using heavy machinery to... apply a sticker to some alimunum casing.
01:05 PM chopper791: The TTS is not the way to go on a 24k spindle. I am saying that it would be nice
01:06 PM IchGucksLive: https://www.google.de/search?hl=de&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1336&bih=845&q=2%2C2kw+motor&oq=2%2C2kw+motor&gs_l=img.3..0i10i24k1.2308.7026.0.7466.11.11.0.0.0.0.92.688.11.11.0....0...1.1.64.img..0.11.682...0j0i19k1j0i5i30i19k1j0i8i30i19k1j0i5i30k1.a-YZL7nf6sE#hl=de&tbm=isch&q=2,2+kw+motor
01:06 PM roycroft: but something like it would be nice for your spindle, choppe791
01:06 PM roycroft: hence the design opportunity
01:06 PM roycroft: you just want some kind of auto-indexing tool holder
01:07 PM roycroft: it does not have to be tts
01:07 PM chopper791: roycroft: I agree. I have many other fish to fry right now.
01:07 PM IchGucksLive: fright fish is best
01:07 PM Tom_L: carp?
01:08 PM chopper791: Never heard of a fright fish
01:08 PM LeelooMinai: There are two drilled cavities on my collet - is that some kind of balancing tuning or they are for something else? Thought maybe for RPM meters or something... no idea. (?)
01:08 PM chopper791: Tom_L: Heck no not any carp...lol
01:08 PM LeelooMinai: Collet nut that is
01:08 PM roycroft: another approach that might be interesting would be to build a tool table with tool diameters, and permanently mount an isolated touch pad out of the standard work zone on the bed but still within the physical limits of the bed
01:08 PM roycroft: and program lcnc to go touch down on that pad every time you change tools and update the tool table accordingly for the z position of the tool
01:09 PM LeelooMinai: Anyone knows? Like here: http://i.imgur.com/Rl3CyYm.png
01:10 PM LeelooMinai: But I have two of those, which makes me thing it's for ballancing?
01:10 PM chopper791: Balance
01:10 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I wonder how they actually figure out where to drill them.
01:10 PM Tom_L: balance them
01:10 PM chopper791: Machines do that figuring for them
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, but how do they work?
01:11 PM IchGucksLive: frequenz mesurments
01:11 PM chopper791: Think tire balancer
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: I don't have a car and never had:)
01:11 PM chopper791: spin the tire and the computer says add weight here and here.
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: I guess they spin the nut in something?
01:12 PM chopper791: Same thing with the nut. Spin it at 24k or greater and the computer says drill here and here. Then retests to make sure it is balanced withing spec for bearing life.
01:13 PM LeelooMinai: And then you attach a fly cutter, and what's the poiint? ...
01:13 PM IchGucksLive: and then you use different collet
01:13 PM chopper791: yup
01:14 PM Tom_L: i don't think you're gonna be spinning a flycutter at 24,000 rpm
01:14 PM chopper791: Same thing with spending money on high end tool holders. One you add something else they are no longer balanced. Close enough though for making sure they do not tear stuff up
01:14 PM IchGucksLive: are there good fly cutters from china on ebay
01:14 PM DaViruz: LeelooMinai: i don't think a 24krpm spindle is meant for fly cutting
01:14 PM LeelooMinai: Weird that they bother with it - I mean when you cut the forces all all over the place anyways.
01:14 PM IchGucksLive: 1inch
01:14 PM IchGucksLive: DaViruz: not even for 8mm bits
01:15 PM chopper791: If the spindle manufacture can make sure they do their job and the spindle is balanced and everone else does theirs then the system works
01:15 PM DaViruz: a ER collet nut has some "designed in" unbalance due to the collet retainer ring
01:15 PM DaViruz: so balancing one makes perfect sense
01:16 PM LeelooMinai: THe ring is not concentric?
01:16 PM DaViruz: nope
01:16 PM IchGucksLive: isent it loose
01:16 PM DaViruz: they might just add the lightening hole in a standard location and not really measure it at all as well
01:16 PM chopper791: yes it is loose and is not complete which allows you ro roll your collet into the nut.
01:17 PM chopper791: They might not balance it well
01:17 PM IchGucksLive: ones more the Q can someone show me a good fly cutter at 1 inch wide
01:17 PM LeelooMinai: I remember the first time I used ER11 system for the life I could not get the collet out - because I did not take the endmill off:)
01:17 PM chopper791: lol...
01:18 PM IchGucksLive: but you get it after some hr
01:18 PM chopper791: I do stuff like that all the time.
01:18 PM DaViruz: i think all my ER nuts have some traces of balancing, but i think most of them actually has axial lightening holes
01:19 PM LeelooMinai: I also noticed that there are two kinds of nuts one can get - some have notched and are more "square", so I guess you use a special wrench.
01:19 PM LeelooMinai: Not sure if they have advantages.
01:19 PM chopper791: I like the hex nut style.
01:20 PM chopper791: The spanner wrenches I tend to lose or something magic happens to them.
01:20 PM DaViruz: i have one er16 nut that i don't have a spanner for. i don't like that one!
01:21 PM chopper791: haha
01:21 PM chopper791: If they were hex then you would have a wrench for it
01:21 PM LeelooMinai: Well, also with the normal ones I can use torque wrench on them.
01:22 PM * roycroft puts a hex on chopper791's nuts
01:22 PM chopper791: Had my kids already so thats cool
01:23 PM LeelooMinai: Though when I applied 20Nm, as they recommended, it was pretty scary - I would never apply this much force manually because I would think I am destroying the thread or something.
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: Hey does wikileaks has a new Boss
01:23 PM IchGucksLive: DTR presidentiol of WL
01:23 PM gregcnc: the thread can handle probably an order of magnitude more torque
01:24 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: I don't believe it:)
01:24 PM gregcnc: there are formula, you can check
01:25 PM IchGucksLive: if the er is realy closed it might take mor to open it
01:26 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: I know there are, but that would need to break some laws of physics...
01:26 PM IchGucksLive: What size we are talking off
01:27 PM LeelooMinai: er11 and, well, I guess gregcnc is thinking 200Nm torque
01:27 PM IchGucksLive: ER 16 is M24x1
01:27 PM IchGucksLive: ER11 is M18x1
01:27 PM IchGucksLive: ER 20 M28 x1,5
01:28 PM DaViruz: 20Nm is not very much :P
01:28 PM DaViruz: a standard M8 screw thread has a higher recommended torque
01:30 PM IchGucksLive: We recommend to use a tightening torque of 80% of the maximum tightening torque given in this table
01:31 PM IchGucksLive: so only 16
01:31 PM chopper791: M8 screw would. Collet nut is a thin wall nut so 20nm is only about 15 ft lbs. Nothing much but plenty.
01:31 PM LeelooMinai: That 20Nm felt pretty substantial to me. Besides, I was doubting the statement that the thread can take 10x that much:)
01:31 PM IchGucksLive: that is in all lists the MAX recomended is 15
01:32 PM LeelooMinai: I dialed it back to 18 in the end, because 20 felt weird.
01:32 PM LeelooMinai: But the table had 25 max I think
01:32 PM chopper791: Just tighten unitl it cracks then back it off a bit.....
01:32 PM IchGucksLive: http://www.takayama-shoji.co.jp/rego/pdf/13_technical_information.pdf
01:33 PM IchGucksLive: there is a tread US Metric conversion list at the end
01:33 PM chopper791: 200nm would be way more then a er11 collet nut could handle.
01:33 PM roycroft: and wrap duct tape around the crack
01:33 PM chopper791: thats right
01:33 PM chopper791: fiberfix
01:33 PM roycroft: donut forget the duct tape EVER
01:33 PM LeelooMinai: IchGucksLive: It also depends on the collet size - that is, whether you put 6mm endmill in it or 2mm one.
01:34 PM IchGucksLive: agree
01:34 PM LeelooMinai: At least I saw a table that had different torque depending on the size.
01:34 PM roycroft: the only thing that duct tape cannot do is put the magic smoke back in electronics components
01:34 PM LeelooMinai: I am in Canada, so I use hockey tape:)
01:35 PM roycroft: that stuff's a bit sturdier than duct tape, eh?
01:35 PM DaViruz: https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8160/7214525854_733237dd83.jpg
01:35 PM chopper791: The torque would be the same I would think regardless of tool diameter. The collet will need to fit the selected tool and the amount of compression would be the same regardless as long as the collet was the correct size for the tool
01:35 PM chopper791: If you used the wrong size collet then the compression would need to be greater to get the collet to close aroudn tool.
01:37 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I have whole set from China - I think you are supposed to be in some range of difference? Forgot what it was though... 100 microns?
01:37 PM chopper791: So the torque required for a 6mm tool in a 6mm collet would be the same as a 2mm tool in a 2mm collet.
01:37 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: Well, I am just saying that in a table I saw they had two torque ranges - for smaller and bigger holes in the collets.
01:38 PM LeelooMinai: O, here: http://us.rego-fix.com/er-system/pdf/collet-torque-chart.pdf
01:38 PM LeelooMinai: Even more ranges for bigger ones.
01:39 PM DaViruz: i doubt the amount the collet need to close to reach the tool is of significance, very little torque is needed for that
01:39 PM LeelooMinai: DaViruz: Then put 1mm endmill into 6mm collet:)
01:39 PM DaViruz: well :P
01:39 PM chopper791: lol
01:40 PM DaViruz: i'm thinking more along the line of a 5mm tool in a 6-5mm collet
01:41 PM LeelooMinai: I have mine in 0.5mm steps + got few 1/4 and 1/8 ones, because, evil imperial system
01:42 PM LeelooMinai: Basrely found edge finder with 1/4 shaft even.
01:42 PM LeelooMinai: Barely*
01:47 PM chopper791: oh...chips and salsa.
01:48 PM gregcnc: burritos?
01:48 PM LeelooMinai: Dancing while milling
01:48 PM chopper791: I like burritos... but all I have is chips and salso.
01:49 PM chopper791: Wasted my whole day so far. Decided I should atleast do something so chips and salsa fit the bill.
01:50 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: I thought you mentioned that you profiled you spindle to rpm vs torque, or I read it wrong?
01:51 PM gregcnc: not I
01:52 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, ok, if someone has a technique for doing that without $$$, would be nice.
01:53 PM gregcnc: why?
01:53 PM LeelooMinai: But it probably needs some specialized metering fixture or who knows what.
01:53 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: What do you mean why...
01:54 PM gregcnc: did the spindle builder not provide a performance plot?
01:54 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: lol...
01:54 PM gregcnc: should have spnet the money with one that did
01:54 PM gregcnc: now you're left torqueless
01:54 PM LeelooMinai: I don't thiknk so - I am curious but not 10x the price curious I guess:)
01:55 PM LeelooMinai: Well, no, I mean I am left with a normal two pole AC spindle I guess, just thought that would be nice to have a look at a torque curve.
01:56 PM LeelooMinai: Once you have the data, you can process them and you are mnore aware of things happening.
02:09 PM chopper791: The data would be more useful if it was collected while the spindle was in a cut. If you use a ampmeter and voltage meter you can monitor the spindle under load and calculate the HP at the "rpm" Could make that into a load mter so you can adjust the spindle rpm to deliver the torque required depending on the material. A speed torque plot is kind blah when it is only under its own load.
02:10 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: Right, I mean a means of measuring it under real loads.
02:10 PM chopper791: Got ya
02:10 PM gregcnc: https://www.damencnc.com/en/milling-motors/teknomotor/electrospindle/519
02:10 PM LeelooMinai: I bet they have equipment for it somewhere (at NASA:)
02:11 PM chopper791: Put your spindle on an engine dyno ;)
02:12 PM gregcnc: you don't need NASA to measure torque
02:12 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: ...
02:12 PM gregcnc: ...?
02:13 PM LeelooMinai: I can measure torque with $50 wrench, but measuring the torque of spindle at 10kRPM is not the same...
02:13 PM djdelorie: isn't torque under load mostly proportional to current anyway?
02:13 PM gregcnc: depends how you look at it
02:13 PM gregcnc: not induction motors
02:13 PM * djdelorie was thinking brushless 3-phase spindles...
02:14 PM gregcnc: PMDC motors, yes
02:14 PM LeelooMinai: I know there are probably theoretical means of estimating that torque, but I am talking RL measurements - especially since there are almost zero zpecs for those Cheap Chinese spindles.
02:14 PM gregcnc: you looked at the link?
02:14 PM gregcnc: i dont' know if that's real or not
02:14 PM LeelooMinai: I am looking at it... it's a aspindle.
02:15 PM gregcnc: i epxect a much uglier curve
02:16 PM LeelooMinai: And I looked at those theoretical AC curves in the past - in fact they seemed to suggest the opposite of what I heared - that AC motors have very good torque at low speeds, so I don't know now.
02:16 PM djdelorie: you'd need a way to convert rotating force to non-rotating force, like an oil-coupled transmission
02:17 PM LeelooMinai: The torque seems to stay flat, but power drops down... hmm.
02:17 PM gregcnc: just a dyno, many ways to go about it
02:17 PM djdelorie: I meant if you wanted to build one at home :-)
02:17 PM djdelorie: a simple friction pully would do too, but... heat
02:17 PM LeelooMinai: "just a dyno", ok - sounds trivial.
02:18 PM LeelooMinai: (googles dyno)
02:18 PM djdelorie: dynamometer
02:18 PM LeelooMinai: I thought dynanometer is for measuring force - a simple spring can even be used as one.
02:18 PM djdelorie: dynamometer is used to measure rotating force
02:19 PM LeelooMinai: Er, not from where I come from...
02:19 PM djdelorie: spring + friction pulley = simple dynamometer
02:20 PM djdelorie: or force around a pivot etc... ?
02:20 PM gregcnc: even a heavy disc would be sauitable as long as you didn't explode it, aka inertia dyno
02:20 PM LeelooMinai: I can measure force with a digital little hook scale I got from China.
02:20 PM djdelorie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer
02:21 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: When I was small, in physics classes in Eruope, dynanomemter would be a spring in a metal tube with scale.
02:22 PM gregcnc: and what were engines test with?
02:22 PM LeelooMinai: Like that pretty much: m.pl/userdata/gfx/0de642cc9104c673443ea0ddd3442a45.jpg
02:22 PM LeelooMinai: Er, https://inforis.com.pl/userdata/gfx/0de642cc9104c673443ea0ddd3442a45.jpg
02:22 PM chopper791: https://youtu.be/Zox7EnafQmE
02:22 PM chopper791: Small dyno
02:22 PM LeelooMinai: Something keeps cutting my urls in Chrome:/
02:23 PM LeelooMinai: lol @ the first comment there: "Jesus, can't you use NM for Torque? Who the hell uses Lbs and feet any more? I remember using that in the 1960s!"
02:24 PM LeelooMinai: I guess that person have not been to US.
02:25 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, cylindrical mass + friction belt, I see...
02:25 PM gregcnc: not mass
02:26 PM LeelooMinai: Well, hub or what it is called.
02:26 PM gregcnc: this one is inertia type https://youtu.be/cFadBMYJHF8?t=17s
02:28 PM LeelooMinai: I have only one hook scale - not sure if that can be done with one.
02:28 PM LeelooMinai: If I just measured one side and had a spring on the other.
02:28 PM LeelooMinai: I think so.
02:28 PM chopper791: gregcnc: the fire at the end was nice.
02:29 PM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prony_brake
02:31 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I was thinking about setup like that, but then I was not sure how friction would affect the measurements and got distracted.
02:32 PM LeelooMinai: But this technique seems doable with what I have at hand.
02:33 PM chopper791: I say fire up the spindle with a tool in it and let it eat some material. Use spindle and feed override until it sounds right and the chips look good.
02:33 PM djdelorie: the other way is to attach some sort of paddle fan to the motor (blades parallel to the shaft), and measure the *motor* for torque
02:33 PM djdelorie: you might be able to design a torque-meter into the motor mount too, and measure in realtime
02:33 PM djdelorie: suitable bearings, a lever arm, and a force sensor...
02:34 PM LeelooMinai: Ihave air-cooled spindle - it probably already has something like a fan in the back.
02:34 PM chopper791: I can not come up with a solid reason wy I would want to know the lack of output on my cheap china 2.2kw spindle really.
02:34 PM * djdelorie assumes torque symmetry between the toolbit and the motor mounts
02:34 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: What are you some kind of not-OCD person? :p
02:35 PM gregcnc: why all this trouble only to find out torque below ~6kRPM will be marginally enough for a 3mm endmill?
02:35 PM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: you'd need a fan big enough to load down the motor, for the measurements to be meaningful
02:35 PM djdelorie: gregcnc: BECAUSE WE CAN! Mwa ha ha ha! ;-)
02:35 PM djdelorie: and instant bit breakage detection
02:35 PM chopper791: I am OCD but I come to terms after a bit that the torque form those spindles is not work my time in the end.
02:36 PM chopper791: from
02:36 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: It's pretty obvious that most people assume that someone that build a CNC did it to proiduce things and that's all... Obviously, I do all of this for having fun with the whole "exploration" part of it, learning things, trying weird things, musing about all sorts of ways to measure, compare, etc. - it's not that difficult to get it imo...
02:37 PM LeelooMinai: I am not opening a machining shop...
02:37 PM djdelorie: +1 - I've spent way more time on the machine than using the machine.
02:37 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I guess the machine interests me more than the products...
02:38 PM pjm: evening all, any of u use the kress 1050 milling motors?
02:38 PM chopper791: I love to do odd things like you are doing on figuring out the torque, but I get side tracked and find something else to do while the thought of the torque question eats at me until I find a replacment idea for it.
02:39 PM LeelooMinai: However, the fact that you can use CNC to improve it gradually is the great part too, so it's not all academic, but practical for me too.
02:39 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: Do your thing and have fun with it.
02:39 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: Right, yak shaving and all that - too many things at once that can be got into.
02:40 PM gregcnc: i have a 20kRPM, rotational torque sensor for a project
02:40 PM LeelooMinai: I have landing on Mars on a project too:)
02:41 PM chopper791: pjm: I have not but I have heard good things about them. There is also a nice ATC option for them.
02:41 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: I would stick to finding out your torque first :P
02:41 PM LeelooMinai: I remember I once read about those KRess motors, but concluded that Chinese AC spindle + VFD is superior I think.
02:42 PM LeelooMinai: Though I got nice GS2 VFD instead of those Chinese ones.
02:42 PM gregcnc: superior is brushless DC
02:42 PM LeelooMinai: Potato tomato:)
02:42 PM LeelooMinai: Anything with brushes inside somehow makes me sad.
02:42 PM chopper791: http://www.cncstep.lv/index.php/lv/preces/atc-un-spindeli/instrumentu-mainas-adapteri/205-automtisks-maias-adapteris-kress
02:43 PM jthornton: yea chicken cam is back on line in the coop
02:43 PM gregcnc: crappy VFD doesn't help
02:43 PM chopper791: jthornton: nice you have a chicken cam?
02:43 PM LeelooMinai: That's why I got non-crappy one, but still cheap.
02:43 PM pcw_mesa: The highest performance motors are brushed
02:43 PM jthornton: yea inside the coop
02:44 PM chopper791: pcw_mesa: besides the twin turbo big block I had in the my old drag car... haha
02:44 PM jthornton: damn 2.5 gigs of data over where I should be at the middle of the month
02:45 PM Jymmm: jthornton: streaming movies?
02:45 PM jthornton: so far today I taught them where the door to get out of the coop is, the food bowl and the water nipples... only thing left is to teach one how to get back inside the coop at dark
02:45 PM jthornton: not really Jymmm
02:45 PM LeelooMinai: pcw_mesa: I meant the overal principle more - that there are parts there that rely on contact at high RPM for switching eletricity. I know you can use well ingeneered parts to have it work nicely, but it is an ugly solution by itself imo.
02:45 PM chopper791: They should do that on their own jthornton:
02:45 PM Jymmm: jthornton: do you stil get free after midnight?
02:46 PM chopper791: Based on my flock
02:46 PM jthornton: free from 4am to 8am
02:46 PM Jymmm: jthornton: Oh geeze, they keep changing it on you =(
02:46 PM jthornton: chopper791: did the first ones do it on their own
02:46 PM chopper791: yes
02:46 PM jthornton: or did they just follow the ones that know how
02:46 PM LeelooMinai: I guess I have an image of electric drill and sparks that can be seen inside at the brushes, etc. :)
02:47 PM jthornton: that's one reason for the chicken cam to see if they go back inside on their own today
02:47 PM jthornton: today is their first day in the coop and run
02:47 PM chopper791: When I started it was with a fresh group and all were raised from day 2.
02:48 PM LeelooMinai: "what's with the chicken people in this channel..."
02:48 PM chopper791: Nothing
02:48 PM * jthornton emails LeelooMinai a chicken
02:48 PM pcw_mesa: Induction motors are often better the PMSM for high speed spindles because you can easily and efficiently use field weakening
02:48 PM pcw_mesa: to get higher RPM without higher bus voltage
02:48 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe I do not know something - are machinist usually having chickens in their shops as pets or something? :)
02:48 PM pcw_mesa: better than
02:49 PM pcw_mesa: that is you can dynamically change the BEMF constant
02:49 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: My chickens will wonder into my shop while I am machining and sit there watching me.
02:49 PM LeelooMinai: chopper791: and you can use lathe as grill at the dinner time.
02:49 PM Loetmichel: chopper791: hmmm
02:50 PM Loetmichel: lathe or mill with carbide tools... -> instant fried chicken
02:50 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: If you must then you cn reflame harden the ways...haha
02:50 PM Loetmichel: or an angle grinder ;)
02:51 PM LeelooMinai: Just a butane torch + lathe and you have complete setup - you can even program it for just the right RPM:)
02:51 PM jthornton: the neighbors rooster follows me around like a puppy and comes in the shop looking for handouts
02:51 PM Jymmm: rotiser chicken
02:51 PM chopper791: jthornton: If you want to make them learn their home fast. Leave them locked in their coop for a couple days and they will know that is where they are to be
02:52 PM jthornton: I've read that but I don't want to feed and water them in the coop
02:52 PM chopper791: I understand..
02:52 PM LeelooMinai: Those chicken probably by now all have metal poisoning from peking at the chips now and then.
02:52 PM jthornton: they are in a 5' x 10' run so easy enough to catch them
02:52 PM chopper791: My coop is a walk in style and I have the feed and water in there.
02:53 PM jthornton: mine a pretty small 4' x 5' and 18" off the ground
02:53 PM chopper791: This conversation turning into machining chickens on a lathe... weird
02:53 PM jthornton: so much for chicken talk back to work for me
02:54 PM chopper791: have fun
02:55 PM pjm: chopper791, ok thanks for comments on kress, i need something for my new project and it already has a 43mm ID holder for the spindle
02:55 PM chopper791: LeelooMinai: I keep the chips in the machine. I also sweep all the time so tha helps
02:56 PM chopper791: pjm: I have always wanted to try one. The atc attachment is what makes it for me as well.
02:57 PM chopper791: ATC on a router table...yummy
03:07 PM CaptHindsight: $500 or best http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matsuura-Vertical-Machining-Center/401191635743
03:09 PM LeelooMinai: Wouldn't the scrap metal price per kg be more? :)
03:09 PM roycroft: that would cost more than $500 to transport
03:10 PM LeelooMinai: It is 10 ton, and I see prices like 10 cents per kg, so $1 per 10kg, so that could be like $1k by itself...
03:11 PM sync: but it is mixed scrap
03:11 PM sync: which is worth less than that
03:11 PM CaptHindsight: wish it was closer or I had more time
03:11 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I think most weight is in the cast iron part.
03:12 PM sync: yes but you have to pull stuff off to sell it for melting
03:12 PM Crom: I remember getting $0.35 a pound of clean copper.. 6 months later it was $2.00
03:12 PM sync: which costs money
03:12 PM roycroft: that's why you ship it to india for stripping
03:13 PM roycroft: it's cheaper there
03:13 PM gregcnc: sync unless it's just a hobby then it's time well spent
03:13 PM LeelooMinai: Also, transport can be free - Loetmichel presumably would just taki it on his back and went to the scrapyard whistling some happy tune:)
03:13 PM sync: stripping old machines for scrap? hardly
03:13 PM Loetmichel: LeelooMinai: what?
03:14 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel: What? Too heavy now? :p
03:14 PM Crom: I need to build a furnace to melt brass, AL, and cast iron...
03:14 PM Loetmichel: WHAT should i carry?
03:14 PM CaptHindsight: the Z box ways look good
03:15 PM LeelooMinai: Loetmichel: 10 ton piece of "machining center" to a crapyard.
03:15 PM LeelooMinai: scrapyard even
03:15 PM Loetmichel: no thanks
03:15 PM Loetmichel: about 100 times too much
03:15 PM Loetmichel: and i dont like going twice ;)
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: the hydraulic pump is sitting on the pallet
03:16 PM chopper791: Perfect machine for somebody who lives close to that to get. If the electronics all work then there is good money to be made. Strip it down and scrap the iron, sell electronics.
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: it's a pretty easy machine to convert to LCNC
03:17 PM chopper791: I have $0.00 in my machine
03:17 PM roycroft: don't exaggerate
03:17 PM roycroft: that thing only weighs 9 tons, not 10 tons
03:20 PM roycroft: and those tons are not even metric
03:20 PM chopper791: CaptHindsight: yes it would be. I did the same thing to mine. I purchased my vmc with an entire machine worth of spare parts. Sold off half the spare parts which paid for my whole machine, transport, and retrofit. Deals to be had sometimes
03:20 PM chopper791: Matsuura MC-500v2 (1982)
03:21 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, I have a 710 from 1980
03:21 PM chopper791: nice
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: the tables sell for $500
03:22 PM chopper791: Seem to be solid machines and the box ways on mine are in wonderful shape. Spent its whole life machining delrin, uhmw, and some alum.
03:23 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATSUURA-MC-500V2-CNC-VERTICAL-MACHINING-CENTER-MC500V2-/192180324211
03:23 PM chopper791: Just like mine
03:24 PM chopper791: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32122-1982-matsuura-mc-500v-retrofit
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: I'm going to upgrade the spindle to something 10-20k rpm
03:26 PM chopper791: That would be great. I have a spare 6k cartridge and motor. I wish it was the 10k version.
03:27 PM CaptHindsight: do you have pics? I've been wondering how close the two models spindles are
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATSUURA-MC-510V-CNC-VERTICAL-MILL-SPINDLE-CARTRIDGE-UNIT-TYPE-A-/162461712868
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: Type A ^^
03:29 PM CaptHindsight: type B http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATSUURA-MC-510V-CNC-VERTICAL-MILL-SPINDLE-CARTRIDGE-ASSEMBLY-UNIT-TYPE-B-/162461710467
03:30 PM chopper791: My spare is type B
03:32 PM chopper791: The motor is a EEVA-51KM
04:14 PM Deejay: gn8
04:26 PM Vitran: I know this is a strech, but wondering if someone out there could help with the starting of a post processor
04:26 PM Vitran: For a Dialog 11. Trying to find a post processor to start with
04:26 PM gregcnc: easiest to start with on that's close
04:27 PM Vitran: I found a DMG post processor, but it is in a very different format
04:27 PM Vitran: I followed Zeeshan and am using Featurecam
04:29 PM XXCoder: yet another cam lol
04:29 PM XXCoder: also autodesk
04:29 PM Vitran: Nah, not autodesk
04:29 PM Vitran: and I am used to CamBam
04:29 PM XXCoder: https://www.autodesk.com/products/featurecam/overview
04:30 PM Vitran: I know they bought out and merged
04:33 PM Vitran: oh geeze. I just found a Dialog 4 post processor with Featurecam. Spend half an hour trying to find something that was already there.
04:54 PM chopper791: I liked featurecam, do not use it as much as I did in the past.
04:56 PM dioz: too much timmys makes my stomach hurt . can only drink so much coffee in a god damn day
05:07 PM Vitran: Sounds like a problem that needs a simple solution.
05:27 PM L-lanterns: test
05:27 PM LeelooMinai: Error
05:29 PM gregcnc: did you measure spindle torques yet?
05:29 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, just found out that wheeze and jessie have different service managers
05:30 PM LeelooMinai: Is there like a plan for linuxcnc releases? For example, is it more or less known when it will support Jessie, or it's a mystery?
05:31 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: No, it's on my 10000 long list of things to do some time:)
05:32 PM gregcnc: OK here's a real one from a real spindle mfg http://www.alfredjaeger.de/en/ars-line/ARS72-M216.04-S3-E.html
05:33 PM LeelooMinai: What is S1 and S6 there?
05:34 PM gregcnc: duty cycle
05:35 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, that's a depressing graph.
05:35 PM pcw_mesa: LinuxCNC supports Jessie now (and has for a year? or so)
05:35 PM LeelooMinai: Not according to the webpage.
05:35 PM LeelooMinai: Only for sim.
05:36 PM pcw_mesa: look at buildbot.linuxcnc.org
05:37 PM LeelooMinai: Aren't those some development build?
05:37 PM LeelooMinai: builds
05:37 PM pcw_mesa: those are master (2.8.x)
05:38 PM pcw_mesa: but theres also a Jessie 2.7 build
05:38 PM LeelooMinai: Er
05:42 PM LeelooMinai: So... how does this work. There are new versions of stable linuxcnc, but no one will even notice it in the package manager, because the are in some weird build place...
05:44 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, my package manager lists me having version 2.7.8
05:44 PM dioz: update your /etc/apt/sources.list
05:45 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, but how am I to know how 2.7.8 compares to that buildbot thing...
05:45 PM dioz: or /sources.list.d/
05:45 PM dioz: i imagine there's changelogs
05:46 PM dioz: problem is that most of the trades guys aren't smart enough to computer.
05:46 PM pcw_mesa: There is the standard OS+linuxcnc dist/packages set but more packages are available from the buildbot
05:46 PM pcw_mesa: And if you build from LinuxCNC source you have many more choices
05:48 PM LeelooMinai: Wonderful... wish I knew that not so long ago where I installed wheezy because some table on the website listed jessie not supported.
05:49 PM dioz: only tables tou can trust are the rating plates on the press and sheer and iron worker
05:49 PM LeelooMinai: I mean table 7 here: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.html
05:50 PM TurBoss: hello
05:50 PM dioz: a question today was "if someone comes into the shop with a 1/4in plate that they claim is mild steel what do you set the sheer to (sheer clearance and tonnage)
05:51 PM gregcnc: 11
05:51 PM dioz: i said 13 so i was close
05:51 PM TurBoss: I have a relay that enables the spindle , it sends feedback when enabled, is posible to take this feedback to prevent the program to run if no received?
05:51 PM LeelooMinai: Probably - just use some logic hal components?
05:52 PM TurBoss: yes sure
05:52 PM dioz: gregcnc: you ever cut stainless on a hydraulik sheer?
05:52 PM dioz: shit sounds just dirty
05:52 PM LeelooMinai: Say and - it will be only true if all the inputs are true
05:52 PM gregcnc: nah man, I just turn everything up to 11
05:52 PM TurBoss: but the question is: what signal i whould wire to that gate?
05:52 PM TurBoss: *shoulf
05:52 PM TurBoss: blah
05:53 PM TurBoss: *should
05:53 PM Crom: UGH#$$(*)#&$#& openWRT and DD-wrt and LEDE project are so crappy right now
05:53 PM dioz: to air bend a 16gauge piece of steel what size v die do i need?
05:53 PM dioz: how much less tonnage does air bending require?
05:53 PM Crom: they're stable version aren't
05:53 PM dioz: what is the difference between air bending and coining?
05:55 PM dioz: if i'm doing multiple inside 90 degree bends what kind of punch do i need on the press brake?
05:55 PM dioz: i can't believe how interchangable the word "gooseneck" is.
05:56 PM dioz: think of all the instances you can use "gooseneck_
05:56 PM LeelooMinai: TurBoss: maybe halui.program.run can be used.
05:57 PM LeelooMinai: It's an input, so something must be connected to it somewhere.
05:57 PM LeelooMinai: There's this nice web linuxcnc interface that makes a graph of connections among other things.
05:57 PM dioz: oh shit. here's one for you LeelooMinai
05:58 PM dioz: what's the smallest hole i can PUNCH in 1/4in plate?
05:58 PM dioz: mild steel
05:58 PM dioz: 45kg/mm^2
05:59 PM LeelooMinai: dioz: And why do you think that's a question for me? I am not a machnist:)
05:59 PM dioz: you said you like to rebuild the wheel
05:59 PM LeelooMinai: I did?
05:59 PM dioz: idk. i'm bored
05:59 PM dioz: trollin
06:00 PM TurBoss: Thanks
06:00 PM dioz: i get to fuck with a lot of expensive equipment
06:01 PM LeelooMinai: I am currently sitting here and pondering if to update this whole PC to jessie or not.
06:01 PM dioz: what are tou currently missing thag your current version doesn't provise that the new version does?
06:02 PM dioz: sometimes i put my change in a piggy bank... sometimes i throw it on the floor
06:02 PM LeelooMinai: And two little imps whisper to my ears "no, it will escalate into something tiering and problematic!" and the other "yes, do it, stay current!"
06:02 PM dioz: yah bud
06:02 PM dioz: go current
06:03 PM dioz: bleeding edge
06:03 PM LeelooMinai: Well, not that bleeding... Bleeding would be the 2.8 I guess:)
06:03 PM dioz: i have a windows xp machine that hasn't been updated in YEARS
06:04 PM dioz: has like a 700 day uptime or something dumb like that
06:04 PM LeelooMinai: I don't:)
06:04 PM dioz: it's pretty isolated though
06:04 PM dioz: it does wheel alignments
06:07 PM TurBoss: found Halui.abort
06:07 PM TurBoss: will use that
06:17 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I noticed that on linuxcnc forum there's a PathPilot section and people are actually using it on their own PCs...
06:35 PM TurBoss: I think that spindle at speed would do a better job
06:36 PM TurBoss: instead of abort
06:37 PM LeelooMinai: How about pause?
06:38 PM LeelooMinai: Not sure if it is per line or immediate pause though.
06:38 PM TurBoss: not sure
06:38 PM LeelooMinai: But I remember that P pauses the g-code.
06:38 PM TurBoss: to fast for me
06:38 PM TurBoss: :D
06:39 PM TurBoss: I need something automatic
06:39 PM TurBoss: if relay fails bang!
06:39 PM LeelooMinai: I mean connecting it to the pause signal.
06:39 PM TurBoss: already happened
06:40 PM tommylight: what's up? or down?
06:40 PM TurBoss: vakle
06:40 PM TurBoss: oops
06:40 PM TurBoss: wrong tab
06:42 PM TurBoss: hi
06:45 PM TurBoss: can I connect a pin to 2 signals?
06:45 PM TurBoss: net spindle-at-speed motion.spindle-at-speed <= speed.ok.out
06:45 PM TurBoss: and somthing else?
06:45 PM tommylight: a coffe maker?
06:46 PM tommylight: lol
06:46 PM TurBoss: cool
06:46 PM LeelooMinai: I think no - you may have to make a separate signal (lame imo, but that's how they designed it)
06:46 PM TurBoss: I have a pyvcp that shows if the spindle is ok
06:47 PM tommylight: use comps, plenty of them on hand
06:47 PM TurBoss: ok
06:47 PM tommylight: go on
06:48 PM LeelooMinai: I made some makeshifr panel too: http://i.imgur.com/Z0sA7Uv.png, but thinking about using that glade environment for the "real" thing.
06:48 PM L-lanterns: ok, I've got linuxcnc 2.7.8 running with a Mesa 6i25 and 7i77, and linuxcnc can't see the i/o on the 7i77?
06:48 PM TurBoss: field power?
06:49 PM L-lanterns: checking
06:50 PM TurBoss: I will 2 out in my comp
06:50 PM TurBoss: +add
06:51 PM TurBoss: L-lanterns: I don't have any mesa boards but you can check here
06:51 PM TurBoss: http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/configs/7i77.html
06:54 PM tommylight: i have a 6i25 on this computer
06:54 PM TurBoss: same as 5I25
06:54 PM tommylight: no more 7i77 left
06:54 PM tommylight: yup but better
06:55 PM tommylight: even if you mess up flashing it, recovery is much easier
06:55 PM tommylight: that is why i use it for experimenting
06:56 PM TurBoss: I want a 6I24
06:56 PM TurBoss: :|
06:58 PM Tom_L: TurBoss, why a 6I24?
06:59 PM tommylight: 50 pin headers ?
06:59 PM Tom_L: i believe so
06:59 PM TurBoss: 3 of them
06:59 PM Tom_L: i think i may have one on the shelf
07:00 PM Tom_L: PCIe
07:05 PM justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser
07:05 PM LeelooMinai: Anyone knows NativeCAM? Not sure if I want multiple passes for facing, I have to add multiple facing items, or there's something else?
07:07 PM Tom_L: if it's a rough block you may want multiple
07:07 PM Tom_L: what are you doing with it?
07:07 PM Tom_L: cam in general...
07:08 PM LeelooMinai: Welll, I mean I am asking about the NativeCAM (old Freatures I believe) working - there's a facing item, and Iadded it and makes sense, but cannot see something that would controll passes in vertical.
07:09 PM LeelooMinai: I man, I see this: http://i.imgur.com/QbNAKUK.png
07:10 PM Tom_L: can't say i've ever used it
07:11 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, there's a step down in the tool section, I wonder if that will affect the actual facing.
07:11 PM Tom_L: does it give number of steps too?
07:11 PM Tom_L: stepdown would be the distance probably
07:12 PM Tom_L: or does it give overall step distance then stepdown as increments to divide it into
07:12 PM Tom_L: cut down to would be the overall
07:13 PM LeelooMinai: The tool spec has promising parameters, but I set stepdown, and it did not really create additional passes, so maybe that's for ramp only or something: http://i.imgur.com/gHQwXyn.png
07:14 PM LeelooMinai: I think this has linux type docs, aka "figure it out yourself, pleb":)
07:14 PM Tom_L: try a finer stepdown number and see if it divides it
07:14 PM Tom_L: or does it create a sub for it
07:15 PM LeelooMinai: It creates all sorts of g-code with subroutines and everything.
07:15 PM Tom_L: do a simple one with multiple level passes and see what it does code wise
07:16 PM Tom_L: single pass multiple depths
07:16 PM Tom_L: until you get a feel for it
07:20 PM LeelooMinai: Right, was just wondering if anyone is an "expert" on it... weird that no one even seems to use it - seems to me like an essential addition to linuxcnc that everyone would install first...
07:20 PM Tom_L: there are some youtoob videos on it
07:20 PM TurBoss: isn't there any comp that takes one input and has 2 outputs?
07:21 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, I watched them.
07:21 PM tommylight: i use it occasionaly for plasma
07:21 PM TurBoss: :P
07:21 PM Tom_L: TurBoss explain the application for it
07:21 PM LeelooMinai: TurBoss: Yes, a signal? :)
07:21 PM Tom_L: you can have multiple signals
07:21 PM TurBoss: I have a out from my component
07:21 PM TurBoss: and I want to wire to 2 signals
07:22 PM TurBoss: a pyvcp and spindle-at-speed
07:22 PM tommylight: what signals?
07:22 PM Tom_L: net mynet in_mysignal1 in_mysignal2 <- spindle-at-speed
07:22 PM TurBoss: oh
07:22 PM TurBoss: cool
07:22 PM tommylight: you can add any existing signal to pyvcp
07:23 PM LeelooMinai: There's something weird about that whole signal/pin and hal sytax - kept confusing me too.
07:23 PM TurBoss: net spindle-at-speed pyvcp.spindle-led motion.spindle-at-speed <= turbowilly.out-0
07:23 PM TurBoss: I have this
07:23 PM TurBoss: hehe
07:23 PM TurBoss: trying
07:23 PM Tom_L: buy them books... send them to school....
07:25 PM TurBoss: great works
07:25 PM TurBoss: !
07:26 PM LeelooMinai: tommylight: Right, ok, I guess on plasma not often you have do multiple facing:)
07:26 PM tommylight: lol nope, just mentioned that i use it
07:27 PM tommylight: i did a quick check on the milling stuff, it has a lot of options for sure
07:27 PM tommylight: and..............no lathe
07:28 PM tommylight: but then again i just got a MAZAK
07:28 PM BeachBumPete: hey folks
07:28 PM tommylight: got it in the shop today, was sitting out for 8 days
07:28 PM tommylight: hey Pete
07:28 PM BeachBumPete: howzitgoin?
07:29 PM tommylight: <not bad, not good
07:29 PM LeelooMinai: tommylight: Not impressed as Mazak in Polish = a cheap felt pen:)
07:29 PM tommylight: lol
07:29 PM tommylight: felt pen that weighs 3.5 tons
07:30 PM LeelooMinai: What country are those things from?
07:30 PM tommylight: Mazak is Yamazaki coorporation in Japan
07:31 PM LeelooMinai: Japan and their obsession with robots:)
07:31 PM Tom_L: i though Mazak were supposed to be decent machines
07:31 PM Tom_L: no personal experience with them
07:31 PM tommylight: Robots??? Technology overall
07:31 PM Tom_L: yeah, toilets for instance...
07:31 PM LeelooMinai: Well, robots in particular - they are pretty crazy about humanoid robots, etc.
07:32 PM tommylight: As far as i could gather from the net, the older ones are the best overall
07:32 PM Tom_L: true of alot of things
07:33 PM LeelooMinai: Just pray that North Korea does not pull Japan into some war:)
07:33 PM Tom_L: time to go kick back
07:33 PM LeelooMinai: Or you will have a CNC from "that country that is now under water"
07:33 PM tommylight: 15" swing, fully automated, 12 tools toolchanger, 11KW (15HP) spindle etc etc
07:33 PM LeelooMinai: Like Atlantis
07:34 PM tommylight: lol @ lee
07:34 PM tommylight: they are tough
07:34 PM tommylight: very........extreemly tough
07:35 PM LeelooMinai: The toughest
07:42 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I just read that something called machinekit is based on linuxcnc but they decoupled the gui part over the network.
07:44 PM tommylight: that is for beagle bone black mainly
07:44 PM LeelooMinai: Er, but I see Mesa 5i25 mentioned there
07:45 PM LeelooMinai: I don't think you can plug it into beagle...
07:48 PM tommylight: nope
07:49 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe they expanded into more computers: http://www.machinekit.io/docs/common/System_Requirements/
07:49 PM tommylight: well i am off, 2:18 AM here, going to watch NCIS and grab some zzzzz
07:49 PM tommylight: night all
07:50 PM dioz: good night buddym may the lord bless you and keep you
07:50 PM dioz: akam i hope ypu don't die in your sleep
07:50 PM dioz: aka
07:51 PM dioz: do people make gantries out of mdf or lvl?
07:52 PM LeelooMinai: Was going to say, probably not, but: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/734ya-vGKas/maxresdefault.jpg
08:33 PM nallar is now known as Ross
08:38 PM roycroft: i has lathe!
08:39 PM roycroft: it is up on the stand, and the initial leveling is done!
08:40 PM roycroft: i was going to just pile the parts i took off of it underneath the stand for now, but i have some 5/8" ss rods that i need to shorten before i can brew this weekend, and they need to be chamfered at the ends as well
08:40 PM roycroft: that sounds like a job more for a lathe than a bandsaw and grinder :)
08:41 PM * roycroft can justify needing to make chips
08:41 PM roycroft: so i have to mount the motor and the electrics, and then i can give it a go
09:06 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm... there's no shortcut for touch off?
09:12 PM dioz: pics roycroft
09:13 PM dioz: gloat moar too
09:14 PM dioz: not enuff gloats
09:33 PM Tom_L: LeelooMinai there is if you make one
09:40 PM LeelooMinai: That's the oposite of a shortcut - a workaround:p
09:41 PM jdh: other than 'end' ?
09:43 PM LeelooMinai: I am looking at help/reference and there's only ctrl-end for tool offset.
09:43 PM LeelooMinai: A, no, G54
09:44 PM jdh: oh, I thought you meant touch off
09:44 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, it may be the same thing
09:44 PM jdh: hit 'end' see what happens
09:44 PM LeelooMinai: "set G54 offset for active axis"
09:49 PM Tom_L: what's the preferred GUI in a debian install?
09:50 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, you know how the musicians use nowdays arrays of buttons controllers?
09:50 PM LeelooMinai: Tom_L: I things in theory official is not gnome 3, but I used Xface, since I am doing x11vnc and had some problems with the other.
09:51 PM Tom_L: i had it installed once and forgot which one i chose :(
09:51 PM LeelooMinai: Anyways, I was just thinking that one could one of those controllers as a nice CNC input - just add labels on the buttons for jogging homing, whatever, etc.
09:51 PM Tom_L: on a test drive
09:52 PM LeelooMinai: They look like this onbe more or less: https://www.amazon.com/Novation-Launchpad-Controller-Discontinued-manufacturer/dp/B002TX7B4E
09:53 PM LeelooMinai: And nice thing is you can change colors of those pads too, so, I guess many opportunities there.
09:53 PM LeelooMinai: You have a kind of input/display thingy.
09:54 PM LeelooMinai: DJ Mill
09:58 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, wish I could make quick touch off where all axis are zeroed
09:58 PM jdh: that would be odd in general
09:59 PM jdh: make a button that does the appropriate G10
09:59 PM LeelooMinai: Depends - if you assume conventional center finders, etc, maybe.
09:59 PM Tom_L: that's what i was suggesting
10:01 PM jdh: I have never touched off more than x & y at the same time
10:02 PM jdh: x end <set whatever> y end <whatever>
10:04 PM Tom_L: ahh i remember xfase now. i hated it
10:04 PM Tom_L: good this is just temporary to pull files from another hdd
10:05 PM LeelooMinai: I hate all Minux GUIs, but I don't know - it's lightweight and kind of semi-normal.
10:05 PM LeelooMinai: Linux
10:10 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I ran this program generated by NativeCAM, and... nothing happens - the play button is on, pause on, clicking it does nothing.
10:11 PM gregcnc: is it waiting for a tool change?
10:11 PM LeelooMinai: I preloaded tool with g61q6, but I would get a dialog box I think.
10:12 PM LeelooMinai: g-code line bing exectued is at 0.
10:13 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, resume does not do anything either.
10:25 PM LeelooMinai: Run time 77 minutes, right...
10:26 PM LeelooMinai: I wish at least I would get some indication what linuxcnc is trying to do right now.
10:28 PM LeelooMinai: It just sits there like that: http://i.imgur.com/MXq7KZp.png
10:32 PM Tom_L: is it paused?
10:32 PM LeelooMinai: Seems so, but resume does nothing.
10:34 PM Tom_L: dunno
10:39 PM LeelooMinai: Er, pressed the slash button disable before running and it worked suddenly.
10:40 PM LeelooMinai: With button on it doesn't run properly, but with button off does not display the stock - I guess that's how it is
10:40 PM LeelooMinai: Or reverse of the above.
10:54 PM LeelooMinai: Ok, I think I have some stalling, but only on rapid direction changes - when I jog and change direction manually, it usually does not happen. You think that I should adjust acceleration, max speed, both?
11:36 PM roycroft: bash-3.2$ mv IMG_0155.JPG LatheOnStand2.jpeg
11:36 PM roycroft: ack
11:36 PM roycroft: http://www.roycroft.us/LatheOnStand1.jpeg
11:36 PM roycroft: that's what i wanted
11:37 PM roycroft: http://www.roycroft.us/LatheOnStand2.jpeg
11:46 PM Gene_home: looks nice
11:47 PM roycroft: thanks
11:47 PM roycroft: what i like is that it's pretty high
11:47 PM roycroft: i don't have to bend over to use it
11:48 PM roycroft: almost too tall
11:49 PM roycroft: i can take it down a wee bit more, but it's almost as low as it goes
11:49 PM Gene_home: looks like you could work upside down also...
11:50 PM roycroft: there will be cabinets with drawers on the sides, which is why it's framed up like that
11:51 PM roycroft: and i might put a wide, shallow drawer in the middle to hold things like drawings, calculator, rules, etc.