#linuxcnc Logs

May 08 2017

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:22 AM Jymmm: Like I said... too many 'what if's'
12:24 AM XXCoder: 1.3k for fancy 5 axis vise :P
12:24 AM Jymmm: 99¢ for a tube of crazy glue
12:26 AM XXCoder: that vise is more expensive than my entire machine :P
12:27 AM XXCoder: its alsom more expensive than my old van lol
12:47 AM Jymmm: XXCoder: you old van was less than 99¢ ?! lol
12:47 AM XXCoder: no the vice is $1,300
12:47 AM XXCoder: *vise
12:48 AM Jymmm: Yeah a 98¢ van is a vise
12:48 AM XXCoder: at end it was worth 100 superglues anyway lol
12:48 AM Jymmm: ...or a love affair
12:52 AM XXCoder: lol
12:56 AM Crom: swapping a 400mhz router out for a 720Mhz router see if things get a bit more stable
12:57 AM XXCoder: internet router or?
01:37 AM Deejay: moin
01:42 AM IchGucksLive: morning from germany
01:43 AM XXCoder: hey the german man
01:46 AM IchGucksLive: im off till later
02:31 AM XXCoder: hey wolf_100w `
02:32 AM Crom: much better with a faster routr and newer dd-wrt firmware
02:36 AM XXCoder: cool
04:47 AM XXCoder: crazy. https://www.contextis.com/resources/blog/hacking-unicorns-web-bluetooth/
05:17 AM jthornton: morning
05:17 AM XXCoder: hey
05:18 AM Tom_itx: whassup?
05:19 AM jthornton: flew the Q100 last night
05:19 AM Tom_itx: nice
05:19 AM XXCoder: check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MXO7IUvX5w
05:39 AM jthornton: http://gnipsel.com/images/chicks/big-brooder-01.jpg
05:42 AM XXCoder: nicely done
05:43 AM jthornton: thanks, built that Saturday moved the chicks from the over crowded tubby to the big brooder yesterday
05:43 AM jthornton: they ran around chasing each other with all the space
05:50 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
05:51 AM XXCoder: hey
05:51 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: you might never sleep
05:51 AM XXCoder: actually I plan to fairly soon
05:52 AM IchGucksLive: what is your main professional as you are al time around
05:52 AM XXCoder: I work 10 hours a day at production shop
05:52 AM XXCoder: not exactly "all time around" lol
05:52 AM IchGucksLive: metall production
05:53 AM IchGucksLive: or some kid of metall involved
05:53 AM IchGucksLive: kind
05:53 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: are you going for a real 5 axis
05:54 AM IchGucksLive: AC movements
05:54 AM XXCoder: depends on what machine I run lol
05:54 AM XXCoder: I very rarely run d500 which is 5 axis mill
05:55 AM XXCoder: right now I run old fadal 88 and office mill 2 (haas)
05:55 AM IchGucksLive: ive been working on hermle c1200
05:55 AM XXCoder: wow pretty old 5 axis
05:56 AM XXCoder: it has far larger workspace than d500
05:56 AM IchGucksLive: yeah there yousee how old i am
05:56 AM XXCoder: but also FAR more modern than fadal 88 lol
05:56 AM IchGucksLive: C30 is the horkhorse at this times
05:56 AM XXCoder: made in 1988
05:57 AM IchGucksLive: im comming right now out of a professional school that ownes a Maho400
05:58 AM IchGucksLive: with heidenheini tnc 125
05:58 AM XXCoder: its ok just need light work usually because its quite worn
05:58 AM IchGucksLive: so it is not able to go cross move
05:58 AM IchGucksLive: or dream about a Raidus
05:58 AM IchGucksLive: we will build also 12 mashines for this school
05:59 AM IchGucksLive: in 1986 the school where stocked with this now VERY old technologie
06:00 AM XXCoder: heh cnc version of johnny appleseed ;)
06:00 AM XXCoder: going to schools and plant cnc machines
06:01 AM IchGucksLive: the seet is a Aloy bar 6m long 40x20
06:02 AM IchGucksLive: and the gardener got to work with a 28 reamer
06:02 AM IchGucksLive: XXCoder: dident i gave you the drawings of the mini
06:03 AM XXCoder: yeah
06:04 AM IchGucksLive: ok im off till later
06:04 AM XXCoder: later
06:04 AM IchGucksLive: its 1234 here
06:24 AM JesusAlos: Hi
06:25 AM XXCoder: hey
06:25 AM JesusAlos: I have problems with a machine. I don't find the problem.
06:25 AM JesusAlos: When we load the Gcode, the lengh in XYZ is OK, but when the part is finished it have 2,5mm more
06:26 AM Loetmichel: *maaan* why is it always the left thumb? note to self: xactoknives are sharp. Proof: left thumb is now 2mm shorter.... steel ruler, cutting fibreboard, thumb was a bit too far out... *bleeding all over the place* *puts the second bandaid on, the first is already seeped thru*
06:26 AM XXCoder: hey blood make for best lubucation :P
06:27 AM JesusAlos: I have doubts about the postprocessor we use. Don't use G0 G1 use N0000
06:27 AM XXCoder: JesusAlos: sounds like configuration issue or maybe its something else.
06:27 AM XXCoder: Nxxxx is line number usually it dont affect running at all
06:27 AM JesusAlos: whe we mesure a manual line in table is ok
06:28 AM JesusAlos: I mean, we draw a line X and an other one line in Y and the mesure is ok.
06:28 AM XXCoder: manual as in you turn jog wheel the distance? or mdi g1 x10. f100 or something like that
06:29 AM JesusAlos: Jog wheel
06:30 AM XXCoder: hmm whats you use for control machine
06:30 AM XXCoder: is it come with machine or linuxcnc or mach3 or something
06:33 AM JesusAlos: is linuxcnc
06:34 AM JesusAlos: We use a Tebis postprocessor
06:34 AM XXCoder: hmm
06:34 AM XXCoder: well lets try this
06:34 AM XXCoder: use mdi
06:35 AM XXCoder: g1 x10. f100 with something you can measure result of
06:35 AM JesusAlos: Look this sample code:
06:35 AM JesusAlos: N0007 X+0907.985 Y+0038.126 Z+0086.617 F13500
06:35 AM JesusAlos: N0008 X+0906.715 Y+0036.855 Z+0086.684 F15000
06:35 AM JesusAlos: N0009 X+0905.848 Y+0036.137 Z+0086.721
06:35 AM XXCoder: like maybe pen
06:35 AM XXCoder: the first line should be g1 for stright lines
06:35 AM XXCoder: N is line number
06:36 AM archivist_herron: the g1 will be on a previous line
06:36 AM XXCoder: indeed
06:36 AM XXCoder: something like this
06:36 AM XXCoder: g1 x1.
06:36 AM XXCoder: x2. y1.
06:36 AM XXCoder: x3 y2.
06:37 AM XXCoder: next of lines dont need g1 if it remains g1
06:37 AM JesusAlos: Yes I know. My question is if it can be the problem.
06:37 AM XXCoder: not likely
06:39 AM JesusAlos: I will check MDI command, But I think is the same like Jog wheel result.
06:39 AM JesusAlos: but will try
06:40 AM archivist_herron: a dimension error is either a mechanical fault or setup issue or design/cam issue
06:40 AM XXCoder: arch thats what im thinking yeah
06:41 AM archivist_herron: mechanical fault includes step loss if a stepper system
06:41 AM JesusAlos: One question. If there are for example 0,1mm scale error, Can acumulate errors in for exaplme 5000lines?
06:41 AM JesusAlos: We are using servos
06:41 AM XXCoder: if its scaling issue then it would increase error linearly across distance from start point and "undo" as it returns
06:41 AM JesusAlos: but not close loop with linuxcnc. Only close loop encoder-servo
06:42 AM XXCoder: otherwise it may be mechinism problem if it does NOT return to same back on command to return to same spot.
06:42 AM JesusAlos: so, in 5000 lines for example, can be a 1 meter error for example?
06:42 AM archivist_herron: you may not have the dir setup delay correctly set so misses a step on reversal
06:43 AM JesusAlos: I see
06:43 AM XXCoder: yeah missing movements would cause it to fail to travel correct distance (shorter) and on return shortened again so its not back to right back
06:43 AM JesusAlos: I can try if in the end of file the position is the same like begining
06:43 AM XXCoder: however if its longer than commanded its likely machine configuration problem
06:43 AM archivist_herron: I have seen this setup error before
06:44 AM JesusAlos: but the error is ever the same 2,5mm
06:44 AM JesusAlos: in the same part
06:44 AM archivist_herron: because same number of reversals on same job?
06:44 AM JesusAlos: can be
06:44 AM XXCoder: consitent that dont sound like skipping movement error but config issue. archivist_herron you think?
06:44 AM XXCoder: is backlash consient? that I dont know. arch?
06:45 AM archivist_herron: I just said that in different words
06:45 AM XXCoder: indeed
06:45 AM JesusAlos: I don't have backlash
06:45 AM JesusAlos: or very very small
06:45 AM archivist_herron: direction setup delay is in hal/ini somewhere
06:45 AM JesusAlos: the problem is in XYZ
06:46 AM JesusAlos: XY goes with gear rack and Z with ball screw
06:46 AM JesusAlos: X goes with 2 motors
06:47 AM XXCoder: well one of possible tests is just back and forth on single axis
06:47 AM XXCoder: see how it reacts
06:47 AM XXCoder: few times back and forth I mean
06:47 AM archivist_herron: direction setup and direction hold are the two values
06:48 AM JesusAlos: ok
06:48 AM archivist_herron: the drive wil have minimums before you can step
06:48 AM JesusAlos: I will check this. Tank you both, you where very helpfull
06:49 AM JesusAlos: ok
08:45 AM Loetmichel: MAAAn that wasnt so intelligent. using a 116psi air gun to blowout the clog of a desoldering gun without the tin tank attachted to it... *cleans the desk and the coffepot from the uniformly sputtered on tin layer...*
09:42 AM os1r1s: Is there a good way to test that program start/pause/stop buttons work effectively without actually running a program?
09:53 AM JT-Shop: use a sim
10:16 AM LeelooMinai: os1r1s: Add buttons to simple side-pannel GUI to turn the pins on/off imo.
10:17 AM os1r1s: I'm trying to test physical buttons
10:18 AM LeelooMinai: Right, well, then use hal watch feature or instead of buttons in the GUI, you can use indicators.
10:18 AM LeelooMinai: Or use hal scope - that will show you things happening too.
10:19 AM os1r1s: Hal show works fine
10:20 AM DrippityDrops: Crom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zyjLyBp64
10:20 AM os1r1s: But it won't help me with logic with ands/ors/etc
10:20 AM LeelooMinai: os1r1s: I don't know - remove from the program any movement/spindle operations and test?
10:23 AM * LeelooMinai wonders wth is "Tool Path Language"
10:24 AM DrippityDrops: os1r1s: this isnt really answering your question but, why cant you run a test program and then hit the stop button and if it stops, the button works?
10:25 AM os1r1s: DrippityDrops E-top works great. Its the others I want to test. But I can do that
10:26 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, some intermediate used by a cam program most likely
10:26 AM LeelooMinai: os1r1s: Just make a bare test g-code where it doesn't do anything potentially destructive, but uses the features you want to test.
10:27 AM os1r1s: LeelooMinai Yes, I know I can do that. I was looking for a different way.
10:27 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: Already googled and seems it's some kind of JavaScript to do what g-code does...
10:28 AM LeelooMinai: http://tplang.org/#about
10:28 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, er wot, that sounds wrong
10:28 AM archivist: or naming some crap to an already known art
10:29 AM DrippityDrops: archivist, do you have any documentation on the Mikron Multifactor, rotary transfer machines?
10:29 AM archivist: DrippityDrops, I already answered no I thought
10:29 AM DrippityDrops: yeah, I think my chat logged out
10:30 AM DrippityDrops: I need to set up a second pc which is ALWAYS logged into irc then I can VNC to it
10:31 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: Right, well, I don't know to be honest what to think of it. Probably won't really affect anything. I wish g-code was more readable for humans though.
10:32 AM gregcnc: once you create and read enough it's readable, like chinese or japanese
10:32 AM archivist: you can add comments and sensible names to variables, becomes a lot more readable
10:32 AM LeelooMinai: Imo no - it's more like assembly, but even worse - almost close to just opcodes for a CPU:)
10:33 AM archivist: I dont think this is too assembly like http://www.archivist.info/cnc/standard_helical_n_teeth.ngc
10:33 AM LeelooMinai: I mean it has close to none mnemonics - only G for "something that will move" and "M" for "something else".
10:34 AM LeelooMinai: Right, that's perfect example - you have to comment like crazy because the code won't tell you much.
10:35 AM archivist: look at variable names for clue too
10:35 AM LeelooMinai: Yes, but you know what I mean - it's not like g-code was ever designed to be readable by humans nicely.
10:36 AM gregcnc: industry has done a fair job using it
10:36 AM archivist: easier to read than javascript :)
10:36 AM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: That does not mean anything tough:) They would do a fair job with anything, since there was nothing else:)
10:37 AM archivist: machines are generally doing simple moves anyway
10:37 AM gregcnc: but something better would have come about
10:37 AM DrippityDrops: I think the trick to standardizing machine programming code will be a standardization of prints. Where when an engineer draws up a print, it would have some kind of barcode which tells the cnc machine properties of the part. So most of the programming is done with the drawing first.
10:37 AM gregcnc: point to point moves is essentially 95% of g code
10:37 AM sync: DrippityDrops: that part was done in the 50s
10:37 AM sync: or even earlier
10:38 AM DrippityDrops: redraw print =
10:38 AM gregcnc: but a good drawing doesn't mean the machine produces a good part
10:38 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: Er, I am not advocating that JavaScript thing or anything, but to be fair, looking at it, it is fine - you see names that actually tell you what's happening and that's already a big bonus.
10:38 AM sync: you take the "programmer" and he translates the drawing into gcode
10:39 AM sync: and the operator just punches it in the control
10:39 AM sync: or uses a punched tape
10:39 AM gregcnc: try making good parts on a 20 year old lathe that needs 3 tapers programmed to cut a constant diameter
10:40 AM gregcnc: countless shops do it every day and correct code to make it happen
10:40 AM DrippityDrops: I get tons of really old prints in my line of work
10:40 AM DrippityDrops: many are hand drawn
10:40 AM sync: it really depends gregcnc, in my experience it is cheaper to replace the machine or refurbish it than messing with code like that
10:40 AM gregcnc: sure, if the management understands that
10:41 AM DrippityDrops: gregcnc: maybe a part like that would be best roughed then sent out to beground elseware?
10:41 AM gregcnc: but my old man has been doing exactly that for the same shop for 15+ years
10:41 AM DrippityDrops: be ground*
10:41 AM sync: DrippityDrops: no, it is just cheap fucks trying to milk every dollar out of their machines
10:41 AM sync: instead of investing and making more money
10:41 AM DrippityDrops: sync: takes money to make money!
10:42 AM gregcnc: last week an entire turret fell off an Okuma LC30 I think it was
10:42 AM archivist: most cannot buy new
10:42 AM DrippityDrops: jahjajhajha
10:42 AM sync: archivist: lies
10:42 AM DrippityDrops: I cannot buy new, that is why im here
10:42 AM DrippityDrops: I couldnt buy a new bandsaw if I wanted, a new cnc ANYTHING, no way
10:43 AM archivist: the rich have no clue about the poor
10:43 AM DrippityDrops: ^
10:43 AM * roycroft often wonders why, on the internet, there is almost always only one point of view that is correct and acceptable on any given topic
10:43 AM sync: if you run a shop, you can finance a new machine
10:44 AM sync: especially if you start up new
10:44 AM DrippityDrops: I dont buy things I dont have the money for
10:44 AM DrippityDrops: if I cant buy it cash I dont buy it
10:44 AM gregcnc: they have new machines at this shop too, but they put this tight tolerance work on blown out machines all the time
10:44 AM DrippityDrops: all those companies that had huge loans in 2008,2009 are bellyup now
10:44 AM gregcnc: someone else is always willing to finance
10:45 AM sync: DrippityDrops: that is just wasting money, it is cheaper to finance machines
10:45 AM archivist: not at all
10:45 AM gregcnc: oppotunity cost
10:45 AM DrippityDrops: seems the most cheap to just pay cash in my experience
10:46 AM sync: well, say I finance a dmg for 1.5M€ I get a 10 year 24h service contract with them with everything included
10:46 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Indeed, instead one should realize that there's a spectrum of people in different situations and they have their own point of views, and there's nothing unusual about them, except they are all wrong.
10:47 AM sync: so if the machine breaks down and my business stalls, they are *highly* motivated to get it running again so they can get their money back
10:47 AM LeelooMinai: j/k
10:48 AM sync: if my 10k€ clunker breaks, well though luck
10:48 AM DrippityDrops: yeah but when your sales are < 5million a year...... and technology is nearly trippling capability every year.... its hard to invest in something which would be outdated before you pay it off....
10:48 AM sync: and I go out of business
10:48 AM LeelooMinai: Are those "special" constructs in linuxcnc g-code, like variables, subroutines, etc. part of some standard or they are only linuxcnc extensions?
10:48 AM DrippityDrops: but I can pay cash for a < $10,000 machine or three of them and then will them to do my bidding
10:49 AM gregcnc: machine tools or something else?
10:49 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, other dialects have different constructs
10:49 AM sync: sure, but is your productivity the same as it would be with a new machine?
10:49 AM sync: it is also a peace of mind thing
10:49 AM sync: if I know that if stuff breaks it is not my problem is very nice
10:50 AM DrippityDrops: sync: not at all, but EVERY other cost is lower, I wont make an investment without a contract and lights out capability on that machine
10:50 AM archivist: a jobbing shop does not have work continuity to pay finance
10:50 AM gregcnc: there are still people buying and running cam screw machines. somehow they find the right work and keep them alive and fed
10:51 AM DrippityDrops: im talking a high volume order with multi million piece orders
10:51 AM DrippityDrops: gregcnc: thats me
10:51 AM sync: DrippityDrops: the running cost is the same, overall
10:51 AM DrippityDrops: sync: doubt it
10:51 AM sync: so usually the new machine is more cost effective as it is faster
10:51 AM sync: ime it is
10:51 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I need to set Z 0 on my machine to top of Z axis, because it seems that Fusion 360 g-code post-processor goes there in many cases because it assumes it's a "safe" place to change tools, etc. ....
10:51 AM sync: tell that the job shops I have done work for archivist
10:52 AM DrippityDrops: if it were equivilent, people would be doing it. but to replace the machines I have with a current machine of similar tech, you are talking a minimum of $1 million. The machines I used cost less than $7500 each including collets and tooling.
10:53 AM roycroft: sync: if it makes you feel good to constantly finance new machines, then please feel free to do so
10:53 AM LeelooMinai: Heh, just read that Tormach PathPilot thing is really customized linuxcnc - did not know that.
10:53 AM roycroft: but please do not try to impose financial burdens on others whose situation may not be identical to yours
10:53 AM gregcnc: there are still blacksmiths that make money to day to, but how many?
10:54 AM LeelooMinai: 3
10:54 AM LeelooMinai: I guess maybe those guys that forge swords for LARP people:)
10:54 AM archivist: a few more than 3
10:54 AM roycroft: i know of four blacksmiths in my town
10:55 AM LeelooMinai: And what do they make?
10:55 AM roycroft: and i'm not talking about farriers
10:55 AM gregcnc: they generally are producing "art" not competeting with industry
10:56 AM roycroft: for the most part, yes, gregcnc
10:56 AM LeelooMinai: Right, that's what I though - I guess many people will pay extra for things made by hand nowadays.
10:56 AM roycroft: but that does not make them any less legitimate or successful
10:56 AM gregcnc: if you can run ancient screw machines and still make money I see no problem with that, but soon that will be gone
10:56 AM LeelooMinai: And not that long ago, any part made by CNC was extra $$$ - things change quickly.
10:57 AM gregcnc: automation makes parts cheaper
10:58 AM gregcnc: there was another screw machine guy here a while back
11:00 AM archivist: must cnc mine one day
11:00 AM LeelooMinai: Hod do you people pre-cut stock to CNC a part?
11:00 AM gregcnc: band saw
11:01 AM LeelooMinai: I have table-saw + a fence I made, so I put a alu-cutting blade on it and it seems to work fine - can it be done better?
11:01 AM archivist: some steel suppliers can cnc saw the blanks
11:01 AM * roycroft 's ears hurt just at the thought of cutting aluminium with a table saw
11:01 AM gregcnc: carbide tipped saws on tables saw work great
11:01 AM LeelooMinai: I have small band-saw, but I hate this thing -tried to adjust it, but I cannot do straight cuts with it.
11:02 AM roycroft: but that's how i cut aluminium sheet
11:02 AM LeelooMinai: And it will get stuck in alu in no time.
11:02 AM sync: roycroft: I don't care what other people do, I'm just tired that people argue that they cannot afford stuff, if you have a nice idea to start a business there is nothing that stops you from taking out a loan in the 1-2M€ range and to finance your idea if it is sound
11:02 AM roycroft: unless you don't want to
11:02 AM roycroft: and that's my point
11:03 AM roycroft: just because you adopt a particular business model does not mean anyone who does things differently is wrong
11:03 AM LeelooMinai: sync: I just read about a guy in some country that uses soap from hotels to save lives - because it seems that in some countries soap is a luxury and 1/5th of children die due to not cleaning properly, etc.
11:03 AM sync: it is not wrong, but usually not competitive
11:03 AM archivist: I can never borrow money
11:04 AM LeelooMinai: sync: Puts things in perspective for me:)
11:04 AM archivist: arrogance to think everyone can finance to that level
11:04 AM roycroft: that said, i understand the point that an investment in machinery or tooling can lead to an increased efficiency that more than pays for the investment
11:04 AM roycroft: archivist: it goes beyond that
11:05 AM roycroft: not everyone *wants* to invest like that
11:05 AM archivist: I know
11:05 AM LeelooMinai: It's easy to assume ideal conditions on irc for someone else.
11:05 AM roycroft: regardless of ability to do so
11:06 AM roycroft: if you're a jobber shop with old, but well-cared for equipment, and you make a comfortable living and are happy with your income, then what is the motive to finace equipment to allow you to increase profitability?
11:06 AM DrippityDrops: under the same notion im not thrilled by the idea of buying anything which I cannot afford in full; I have never been in debt.
11:07 AM LeelooMinai: Maybe the band saws work well if they have wider blade and more power - that is they were not $100 in a local store...
11:07 AM roycroft: is yours a horizintal or vertical band saw, leeloominai?
11:07 AM gregcnc: good blades amke all the difference
11:07 AM LeelooMinai: I think the blad is 1/4 inch
11:07 AM roycroft: horizontal
11:07 AM LeelooMinai: Vertical
11:07 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, blade support and control too
11:08 AM roycroft: a vertical band saw is more appropriate for making freehand curved cuts in metal
11:08 AM archivist: the cheap ones have poor blade support
11:08 AM jdh: too small for straight cut
11:08 AM LeelooMinai: Right, I played with the bearings and adjustments, etc., but this thing seems to have life of its own when cutting - that's why I don't even think about aluminum on it.
11:08 AM roycroft: metalworkers usually use a horizontal band saw for cutting parts to length
11:09 AM gregcnc: is it a low speed type for metal?
11:09 AM DrippityDrops: LeelooMinai: you could make one of these since you can linuxcnc https://youtu.be/TRxadjd-RyQ?t=13
11:09 AM LeelooMinai: The table-saw + alu blade (lots of teeth and carbide) seems to be okish, but just wondered.
11:09 AM roycroft: a combination of a horizontal band saw (a 6x9 is pretty cheap) for cutoffs and a table saw for aluminium sheet is probbaly a good combination for you
11:09 AM LeelooMinai: DrippityDrops: Er, where's tha saw part there...:)
11:10 AM LeelooMinai: What is the + of it being horizontal?
11:10 AM DrippityDrops: just think of a common chop saw fitted with proper blade
11:10 AM DrippityDrops: then add a cnc feeder and clamp system
11:10 AM roycroft: a horizontal band saw has a vise to hold the part in place
11:10 AM roycroft: and it's self-feeding
11:11 AM roycroft: but the saw blade feeds, not the part
11:11 AM sync: roycroft: sure, and I'm perfectly happy with that, but most businesses want to grow and the easiest and cheapest way is to invest heavily
11:11 AM gregcnc: but if you can make a living with a hack saw.... where is my pitchfork
11:11 AM LeelooMinai: Self-feeding meaning the weight of it
11:11 AM sync: if you are fine with what you do, there is not motivation to invest anyway
11:11 AM LeelooMinai: ?
11:11 AM roycroft: sync: i think we all understand that if you're wanting to grow it takes money to do so
11:11 AM LeelooMinai: Or there's some magic feeder?
11:12 AM DrippityDrops: LeelooMinai: you can use a counterweight system and pneumatic deadstop if you want to do it cheap
11:12 AM roycroft: you seem not to understand that not every company desires sustained growth
11:12 AM LeelooMinai: sync: Imagine a world where everyone is able to do things in the perfect and efficient way - right, it's not possible:)
11:12 AM roycroft: leeloominai: on the small ones, like a 6x9, the weight of the saw with a strong spring counterbalance controls the feed
11:13 AM roycroft: on larger ones there's a hydraulic cylinder to assist as well
11:13 AM LeelooMinai: What kind of width of blade do those saws use at the "cheap" end?
11:13 AM roycroft: 3/4"
11:14 AM LeelooMinai: Right, ok, that makes more sense - I guess mine is only a toy for wood.
11:14 AM roycroft: it's not necessarily a toy
11:14 AM roycroft: but yes, i should imagine it's designed for wood
11:14 AM DrippityDrops: you can buy some chop saw blades @ $200 and if used properly last for 10's of thousands of cuts
11:14 AM roycroft: i had a 6x9 for many years
11:14 AM roycroft: but i got a deal on a 7x12, and it was a night and day diference
11:14 AM roycroft: chop saws are useful
11:15 AM roycroft: but they take a wide kerf
11:15 AM sync: archivist: not really, I have seen it before enough that I think that this is the case
11:15 AM roycroft: and are really noisy and messy
11:15 AM DrippityDrops: they are easier to pull a straight cut though right?
11:15 AM LeelooMinai: Well, I mean 1/4 widht blade for metal would probably be not a good idea, no? It also stalls even with soft wood if the angle gests wrong (and it does all the time.)
11:15 AM roycroft: i have an abrasive cutoff saw
11:15 AM roycroft: i haven't used it in years
11:15 AM roycroft: i use my band saw almost exclusively for cutoffs
11:15 AM LeelooMinai: I thought cutoff saws are good for steel, but not so good for alu due to clogging?
11:15 AM gregcnc: I've cut with 1/4" blade in my 14" vertical
11:16 AM roycroft: leeloominai: a horizontal band saw can also work vertically
11:16 AM roycroft: in case you need to do any freehand cutting
11:16 AM gregcnc: saws, just like anything else have specific applications
11:16 AM roycroft: they generally come with a little table that you can mount on the saw
11:16 AM DrippityDrops: if you are clogging your saw cutting aluminum, it probably wasnt made to be cutting aluminum
11:17 AM DrippityDrops: just because it CAN cut aluminum doesnt mean it should
11:17 AM DrippityDrops: j/s
11:17 AM roycroft: an abrasive cutoff wheel will clog with aluminium
11:17 AM roycroft: but you can get a toothed blade for a cutoff saw that will do fine with aluminium
11:17 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm, I was thinking maybe getting a good nice sliding mitre saw too and using an alu blade on it - maybe that would be money better spend than that band saw, as more use for woodworking in the basement etc. too?
11:18 AM DrippityDrops: just keep in mind the bearings on the spindle and the noise levels you are willing to deal with
11:18 AM roycroft: leeloominai: with something like that i'd be concerned about fixturing the metal
11:18 AM DrippityDrops: if the machine is not ridgid it will get very loud very fast
11:18 AM roycroft: you can hold a piece of wood in a mitre saw by hand and cut it off
11:18 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Well, you just clamp it like wood, no?
11:18 AM roycroft: you want it firmly clamped if it's metal though
11:18 AM DrippityDrops: if its ridgid, and with coolant, its very hush
11:18 AM roycroft: and the clamps that come on a typical mitre saw are not sufficient for metal
11:19 AM roycroft: so you'd have to devise something to operate it safely
11:19 AM LeelooMinai: Right, I was thinking those better ones, like Makita or Devalt, etc. - they seem to have clamps on them.
11:19 AM DrippityDrops: you should affordably test out a heavy duty chop saw with a metal table
11:19 AM DrippityDrops: then just add heavy clamps
11:19 AM roycroft: i understand your desire to get something versatile enough for both wood and metal cutting
11:19 AM DrippityDrops: if you like it then you would be able to add a feeder
11:20 AM roycroft: but my experience, having used saws designed primarily for wood to cut metal, is that it's much safer and efficient and more accurate to use something designed for metal
11:20 AM LeelooMinai: The chop saw vs mitre one difference is only in clamping?
11:20 AM roycroft: if space is an issue then the compromise might be worthwhile
11:21 AM DrippityDrops: http://www.productiq.com/DesktopModules/ProductIQ/Shared/ProductImage.aspx?ProductId=86629
11:21 AM DrippityDrops: LeelooMinai: try to keep everything heavy but small footprint
11:21 AM roycroft: harbor freight sell their 6x9 horizontal band saw for $250 at regular price
11:21 AM LeelooMinai: Right, not that much space - I thought I could make one bench with sliding mitre saw and router in the middle, so I could deal with longer things to cut.
11:21 AM sync: LeelooMinai: I have a makita portable bandsaw, it has been very nice
11:21 AM roycroft: it goes on sale for $225 or so regularly
11:22 AM roycroft: and you can use a 20% off coupon on that
11:22 AM archivist: DrippityDrops, that wont fit in her bedroom
11:22 AM roycroft: so you can get one for >$200
11:22 AM DrippityDrops: like the picture above, heavy cast metal and small but clearly solid. this will make your transition to aluminum and steel
11:22 AM roycroft: er, <$200
11:22 AM roycroft: and yes, a portaband might be a good idea as well, especially if space is an issue
11:22 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: lol, no, in the bedroom I have only CNC + vertical drill thing. I also have a basement.
11:22 AM roycroft: https://www.harborfreight.com/10-amp-deep-cut-variable-speed-band-saw-kit-63444.html
11:22 AM roycroft: if you want to keep the investment low, the hf one will probably do
11:22 AM djdelorie: grrr, replaced the driver chip on my bldc board, and a sense resistor, still doesn't work :-P
11:22 AM roycroft: at least for a while
11:23 AM archivist: LeelooMinai, I have a mill in a bedroom :)
11:23 AM djdelorie: so... should I (1) persist? (2) buy a $400 chinese stepper package? Or (3) a $1500 clearpath servo package?
11:23 AM LeelooMinai: archivist: Good, that makes me feel more normal, but only a bit.
11:23 AM roycroft: a metal cutting bandsaw will have solid metal wheels, not wheels with rubber tires
11:23 AM sync: (4) use stmbl
11:23 AM djdelorie: (or (4) design a better board and start from scratch ;)
11:23 AM archivist: djdelorie, a real servo and drive
11:24 AM djdelorie: archivist: that's what I have now
11:24 AM roycroft: it also twists the blade as it goes through the blade guides, so you can cut to arbitrary lengths without having to do angle cuts first
11:24 AM roycroft: and it runs at a much slower speed than a wood band saw
11:24 AM djdelorie: so that's a vote for "persist" then? Or are you saying I should switch to a mesa-based servo drive instead of a stepper-emulator?
11:24 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: And this will cut alu fine too?
11:25 AM archivist: I have little time for stepper emulators
11:25 AM DrippityDrops: if you can find one of these locally, they are small and can handle heavy cuts http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZIP-CUT-7-1-4-034-2Hp-Industrial-Cut-Off-Chop-Saw-115-208-230V-3450-rpm-/351687942536
11:25 AM djdelorie: ok, given I have three nema 34 160v servos with encoders already, is there a guide to putting together the rest of the system? It's basically a "start from scratch" as I'd likely get a new pc too
11:26 AM os1r1s: djdelorie I have clearpaths on my pm25mv. They are awesome
11:26 AM archivist: djdelorie, we had one earlier today using a step dire "servo" he was losing position
11:26 AM LeelooMinai: Clearpath to bankrupcy:)
11:26 AM djdelorie: heh, my boards don't lose position. They lose magic smoke instead
11:26 AM djdelorie: when the boards were running, they ran really well. they're just not as robust as I'd hoped
11:27 AM archivist: make it more robust
11:27 AM djdelorie: yeah, that's (4) redesign ;-)
11:27 AM archivist: catch the back emf safely
11:28 AM djdelorie: custom boards are not cheap though, even when you design them yourself
11:28 AM archivist: limit currents to the SOA
11:28 AM djdelorie: (a lot more fun though ;)
11:28 AM LeelooMinai: Heh, no HarborFreight in Canada - they seem to have crazy prices indeed.
11:29 AM sync: huh, they are like 10$ for 10 djdelorie...
11:30 AM LeelooMinai: sync: No idea what that means:p
11:30 AM djdelorie: sync: I know the bare pricing, it's not $10/10 for the types I need, plus you forgot parts and stencils
11:30 AM LeelooMinai: A, djdelorie is a nick... I thought "10 djdelories for $1 each - what does it mean"
11:30 AM roycroft: leeloominai: what material you can cut with a portaband or a horizontal band saw is a function of the blade geometry
11:31 AM roycroft: and you can get any kind of blade you want for either
11:31 AM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: and if you happen to have 10 djdelorie's at once, your day just got a lot more interesting...
11:31 AM sync: a stencil is $25, if you even need one
11:31 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: Right, ok, so I guess they have specialized blades for aluminum too.
11:31 AM roycroft: a horizontal band saw has multiple speeds
11:31 AM roycroft: so you can run it faster for aluminium
11:31 AM sync: our bom cost is sub $100 currently, not too bad imho
11:32 AM djdelorie: sync: "need" is such a strong word. I *prefer* stencils for the types of boards I design, it's worth the investment
11:32 AM roycroft: leeloominai: you want a blade with a lot of rake and a lot of space in between the teeth for aluminium
11:32 AM DrippityDrops: ^
11:32 AM sync: well, if you are just making 5 boards I usually don't bother with a stencil
11:32 AM roycroft: it's such a soft material that it gets gummy when you cut it and can clog a blade not designed for it
11:32 AM sync: for the stmbl I would get one as it has a lot of 0603
11:32 AM djdelorie: I've cnc'd my own stencils, but... broken cnc machine...
11:32 AM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: oshstencils has sweet SS stencils for low price - used them on some boards with tiny pitches and were great.
11:33 AM roycroft: rake is the amount of blade tip offset perpendicular to the running line of the blade
11:33 AM roycroft: so more rake gives you a wider kerf
11:33 AM djdelorie: yup, I've gotten the free stencils from pcb-pool before, also nice, but then you pay for pcb-pool
11:33 AM djdelorie: sync: this is the board: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
11:33 AM roycroft: and more room for the chips to make an escape instead of gumming up the blade
11:34 AM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: Is this some kind of smoothieboard like thing?
11:34 AM sync: yeah I probably would not bother with a stencil there
11:34 AM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: it's a bldc driver board that emulates a stepper - step/dir in, vector drive out
11:34 AM LeelooMinai: roycroft: So it's the teeth bend a bit sideways?
11:34 AM sync: https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl djdelorie
11:34 AM djdelorie: yeah, I've seen it
11:35 AM sync: build one, works well now
11:35 AM gregcnc: http://www.starrett.com/saws/saws-hand-tool-products/band-saw-blades
11:35 AM djdelorie: I did mine way before stmbl started, and I enjoy designing boards anyway
11:35 AM * djdelorie spends WAY more time building the machine than using it
11:36 AM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: lol, ok, so I guess they have blades for everything there.
11:36 AM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: Welcome to the party then:)
11:36 AM djdelorie: heh
11:36 AM djdelorie: I've long since accepted that my hobby is the tools, not what I use them for ;-)
11:36 AM gregcnc: the only thing I've figured out in life is that someone has done it before me and there is always a reference available
11:37 AM djdelorie: gregcnc: in my case, a reference for how NOT to do it ;-)
11:38 AM LeelooMinai: Right, I kind of accepted it too - it's about the journey not the destination (or so I tell myself)
11:38 AM djdelorie: so maybe the right choice for me is the chinese stepper package AND redesigning the boards...
11:38 AM LeelooMinai: I am too OCD to just do something so it works ok and not obsess about it.
11:38 AM sync: sure, but before you get something commercial you can just try our driver
11:38 AM djdelorie: I can always repurpose the steppers later
11:38 AM sync: which has been quite reliable now
11:39 AM djdelorie: can you jsut buy a ready-to-go stmbl or is it always a DIY?
11:41 AM LeelooMinai: Why are servos always so much more expensive than steppers anyway? I would think that stepper needs more intricate internals due to many, well, poles for steps, etc.
11:41 AM LeelooMinai: Is it the encoder cost?
11:42 AM djdelorie: encoders add a lot, but make sure you're not comparing cheap chinese steppers to high quality industrial servos
11:42 AM djdelorie: cheap brushless motors can be had for a few dollars - they run quad copters :-)
11:43 AM * djdelorie asked teknic that question, that was their answer
11:43 AM LeelooMinai: Well, I have not seen cheap servos for CNC from China even.
11:43 AM pcw_mesa: also depends on the encode,r a Fanuc 32M count/turn absolute encoder is not cheap
11:43 AM gregcnc: because everyone want steppers
11:43 AM sync: djdelorie: currently you cannot buy a ready made one
11:43 AM sync: LeelooMinai: there are quite cheap ones, 750W motors are ~120€ iirc
11:44 AM djdelorie: if it's DIY I can just DIY another of my existing boards
11:44 AM sync: with 2500 line encoders
11:44 AM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: Everyone gets steppers, because they are cheaper imo.
11:44 AM djdelorie: and I already have the sw tools for it
11:44 AM gregcnc: the drivers are cheaper for sure
11:44 AM djdelorie: mine have 1000 line encoders, but my board has a quad encoder for it, 4000 counts :-)
11:44 AM sync: well, installing gcc isn't really that much of a deal
11:44 AM gregcnc: steppers are easy to setup
11:44 AM djdelorie: sync: I know, I spent 15 years porting the gnu toolchain to embedded mcus ;-)
11:45 AM LeelooMinai: You poke them, they step.
11:45 AM djdelorie: the software to do a good vector drive is not trivial
11:45 AM sync: which is why I suggest the stmbl
11:45 AM sync: the software is quite good now
11:45 AM djdelorie: the software for the RX chip I use, is software I wrote myself
11:46 AM djdelorie: (and I'm a big fan of the RX62T chip)
11:46 AM LeelooMinai: So this stmblr, how does it compare to something like Mesa 7i77 (I believe), which is for servos - is it doing the similar thing?
11:47 AM LeelooMinai: Er, or is it controller + the "power" part.
11:47 AM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: our boards have both the MCU smarts and the high-power driver circuit
11:47 AM djdelorie: mine, for example, can do 300V at 8A direct to the servo
11:48 AM LeelooMinai: A, so it is like controller + VFD in case of steppers, but for servos?
11:48 AM djdelorie: and there are drawbacks to using a hall-only servo amplifier
11:48 AM sync: LeelooMinai: a 7i77 is basically just an amplifier
11:48 AM sync: our drives do all the position control in themselves
11:49 AM djdelorie: and since they have access to the encoder as well, they can control the field currents much more precisely than a hall-based amp
11:49 AM LeelooMinai: well, you would pair it with 5i25, so those two together are equivalent to that thing?
11:49 AM djdelorie: no, you need the part closer to the servo
11:50 AM djdelorie: the equivalent of the stepper driver board, not the breakout end of things
11:50 AM LeelooMinai: So it's what controller <-> amplifier <-something->?
11:51 AM djdelorie: a servo amp takes +- 10V signal and turns it into a +- 160V three phase
11:51 AM djdelorie: it's a type of inverter
11:51 AM LeelooMinai: Like VFD?
11:51 AM djdelorie: yes
11:51 AM djdelorie: but a LOT smarter
11:51 AM LeelooMinai: I read about "vector" type drives for steppers - it's something similar?
11:51 AM djdelorie: actually, one of the test modes on my board is exactly like a VFD
11:52 AM djdelorie: vector drive doesn't apply to steppers
11:52 AM djdelorie: vector drive lets you set up a magnetic field inside the servo that's always at right angles to the rotor
11:52 AM LeelooMinai: Er, what I am talking about, I was thinking spindle.
11:53 AM LeelooMinai: They have vector VFDs for spindles.
11:53 AM djdelorie: yes, a spindle amp is the same type of electronics - +-10v to 160v three-phase
11:53 AM djdelorie: position control is the same electronics with different software, and you need active position feedback
11:54 AM LeelooMinai: Right, the encoder.
11:54 AM djdelorie: with a mesa-based system, the encoder feeds back to the PC, which updates the signal to the VFD/amp, but you can't do vector drive with that setup
11:54 AM LeelooMinai: I attached 400 position encoder to my stepper few days ago to test if it skips anything, but does not seems so. Cannot use it on spindle though, since it's only 6k rpm rated.
11:55 AM djdelorie: unless the amp is smart enough to emulate it without the encoder feedback
11:55 AM LeelooMinai: Hmm, so 5i25 FPGA cannot do the feedback + motion part?
11:55 AM djdelorie: I'm not saying that, it probably can
11:55 AM sync: djdelorie: you can do vector control on a stepper, it is just a 2 phase motor after all
11:56 AM djdelorie: but the VFD isn't as efficient at creating the internal magnetic fields without having access to the encoder itself
11:56 AM LeelooMinai: Couldn't they make VFDs that take feedback?
11:56 AM djdelorie: sync: I meant, what they refer to as "vector control" in BLDC-land doesn't apply to steppers. There's no clark-parke transformation space to worry about
11:57 AM djdelorie: LeelooMinai: that's what sync and I did :-)
11:57 AM LeelooMinai: A, ok, I see now.
11:57 AM djdelorie: but our boards *also* talk step/dir, CAN, mesanet, ethernet, etc...
11:58 AM LeelooMinai: What is "our boards" - that's not the stmbler thing, right?
11:59 AM djdelorie: stmbl is sync's board, http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/ is mine
11:59 AM LeelooMinai: A, right, got confused a bit - but it's 2012 and "I'm working on" there - so it's done now?
12:00 PM djdelorie: on mine, for example, that big chip on the right can directly drive a 7HP motor
12:00 PM djdelorie: I finished the design years ago, but it recently got fried so I'm working on it again
12:00 PM LeelooMinai: Right, seems liks some power part - I assume you add a radiator to it.
12:00 PM djdelorie: EMF backlash from a loose power connector toasted the drive chip and (apparently) other parts of the board
12:00 PM djdelorie: yeah, big heatsink
12:01 PM djdelorie: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2564.html
12:01 PM * djdelorie will add active cooling in the next ref
12:01 PM djdelorie: rev
12:03 PM LeelooMinai: djdelorie: In 4 years probably half the ICs got superceeded:)
12:03 PM djdelorie: yup
12:04 PM sync: yeah our IPM is also obsolete now
12:04 PM sync: but that's easyto change
12:05 PM LeelooMinai: Integrated Pest Management (?)
12:05 PM pcw_mesa: Stepper drives can use FOC you basically just drop the Clarke/Inverse Clarke
12:08 PM LeelooMinai: Has microstepping part in any of this, or it's simpler?
12:08 PM djdelorie: but is that "vector drive"? I thought the whole point of vector drive is that you can rotate the field more precisely between phases, but steppers don't use a perpendicular field to drive the rotor
12:08 PM djdelorie: microstepping is the result, FOC/vector is the mechanism
12:08 PM pcw_mesa: yes its vector
12:08 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I mean if it's used for microstepping.
12:08 PM pcw_mesa: you drive them in Q mode not D
12:09 PM IchGucksLive: hi
12:09 PM gregcnc: thats a clearpath drive?
12:10 PM djdelorie: pcw_mesa: I understand q/d I'm just trying to picture where the d field is in a stepper's internals...
12:11 PM djdelorie: gregcnc: is what a clearpath drive?
12:11 PM pcw_mesa: Q is the only thing that makes a motor move...
12:11 PM Jymmm: Love the positioning camera, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRSLbo_8nTQ and it looks like Lawrence was credited for portions of it https://www.vbesmens.de/en/positioning-controller.html
12:12 PM djdelorie: in bldc, d is parallel to the rotor and q is perpendicular to it, but in a stepper, q and d would be 0.9 degrees apart?
12:13 PM pcw_mesa: 0.45 degrees i think (90 electrical degrees)
12:14 PM * djdelorie is confused
12:14 PM djdelorie: steppers generate torque through misaligned teeth between the rotor and stator, right?
12:14 PM sync: djdelorie: vector just means that you know what the rotor angle is
12:15 PM sync: a dumb vfd outputs a fixed field without knowing the rotor angle
12:15 PM djdelorie: unless your stepper is 4 steps per rotation...
12:15 PM sync: a vector vfd uses backemf and current to estimate the rotor angle to manage slip and get better torque
12:15 PM djdelorie: sync: oh sure, closed loop control for steppers makes a lot of sense
12:16 PM djdelorie: I'm just trying to understand how the q/d vector math applies to a cogged stepper rotor
12:16 PM sync: it doesn't
12:16 PM sync: but vector just means that you know the rotor angle basically
12:17 PM djdelorie: I always thought vector drive was about the field vector, not the rotor vector
12:18 PM sync: well, you control the field vector to let the rotor do something specific
12:18 PM sync: so you must know both
12:18 PM pcw_mesa: The QD stuff does apply to steppers, just no Clarke
12:19 PM sync: yes, the same current vectors apply there as well
12:20 PM djdelorie: except there is no "right angle to the rotor" in a stepper - mechanically
12:20 PM djdelorie: you can apply the math to the windings but magnetically it's different
12:20 PM djdelorie: er, right angle magnetically that is
12:20 PM pcw_mesa: Same just more poles
12:20 PM djdelorie: http://www.linengineering.com/LP/Hercules/fig1.jpg
12:22 PM sync: what about 3 phase steppers? ;)
12:22 PM djdelorie: hmmm... maybe I've been imagining the inside of my servos wrong, then... if I have a 12-pole servo, D isn't at "right angles" to anything either, is it?
12:23 PM pcw_mesa: 90 _electrical_ degrees
12:24 PM djdelorie: sure, I just always thought of it magnetically
12:24 PM pcw_mesa: I have some 320V 3 phase steppers, weird German things
12:24 PM djdelorie: any magnetic field that's parallel to the rotor doesn't produce torque and is wasted power
12:25 PM djdelorie: with vector control, would a six-pole motor be more efficient than a twelve-pole one, for that reason?
12:25 PM pcw_mesa: Thats why step motors get hot (always working hard to pull radially on the rotor)
12:26 PM djdelorie: and open-loop means you need to always provide full (or some) power
12:30 PM JT-Shop: nice firefox dropped support for java and now my camera won't work with ff only explorer
12:31 PM SpeedEvil: Progress!
12:32 PM Jymmm: JT-Shop: Yeah, wasn't that nice of them to NOT tell anyone
12:32 PM djdelorie: iirc they dumped an ancient and horrible API in favor of a much better one
12:32 PM djdelorie: and they told us years ago they were going to do it
12:32 PM JT-Shop: I must have missed that note
12:32 PM djdelorie: it never made it to CNN
12:33 PM SpeedEvil: Sometimes I wish I had a billion dollars, so I could just say 'keep the interfaces and bugfix'
12:33 PM JT-Shop: to bad they didn't tell d-link so they would not use it in their cameras
12:33 PM JT-Shop: I don't watch CNN :)
12:33 PM djdelorie: IoT software/firmware is notorious for being out of date and buggy ;-)
12:34 PM Jymmm: Mozilla is turning their products into crap anymore. Constant releases instead of just fixing the backend bloat crap.
12:34 PM * djdelorie has stuff that *only* works in FF though...
12:35 PM Jymmm: I have more plugins to DISABLE the crap they do, than for anything else.
12:49 PM IchGucksLive: Good old time with netscape navigator only pure HTML
12:50 PM IchGucksLive: JT-Shop its also with ff java a miss on good calculating thinks like timingbelt
12:51 PM IchGucksLive: hi nikre
12:51 PM gregcnc: it's been a while since I changed the timing belt in my FF. is that what's wrong it it?
12:51 PM nikre: hi
12:51 PM LeelooMinai: NCSA Mosaic:p
12:52 PM IchGucksLive: gregcnc: http://www.maedler.de/Static/Tools hit ZAHNRIEMEN
12:53 PM FinboySlick: gregcnc: Have to be careful with that. If it skips, your pixel valves might crash into the font pistons.
12:53 PM IchGucksLive: gregcnc: based on 9.01 ea
12:54 PM nikre: i am trying to setup a limit switch. axis overshoots the switch and starts going back but not as long to release the switch. i don't measure a significant backlash. could this be a configuration problem?
12:55 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: what switch type
12:55 PM nikre: mechanical(not sure if this term is right)
12:55 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe you got the signs in the config wrong?
12:55 PM nikre: both positive
12:56 PM IchGucksLive: does the axis also move that way
12:56 PM LeelooMinai: I remember I had something like this too, but then found that the home offset in the ini is not what I thought it was in terms of how it's measured./
12:56 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: can yopu upload the INI file
12:56 PM nikre: sec
12:56 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: to pastebin
12:57 PM nikre: sure
12:58 PM nikre: https://pastebin.com/ALFNAPtE
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: so what axis troubles
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: XYZ
12:59 PM nikre: z
12:59 PM nikre: axis-2
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: YOU did it wrong
12:59 PM IchGucksLive: HOME_OFFSET = -3.000000 ==0
01:00 PM LeelooMinai: -3 I think is messing it up
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: HOME = 0.000000 == 3
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: -3
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: Do it that way
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: the HOME is the ppoint the mashine ends up
01:00 PM IchGucksLive: the Home_offset is the switch to be set the position
01:01 PM LeelooMinai: Right, that's what I did first time too = I thought that HOME_OFFSET is taken from 0, but it's measured from the point where homing is done.
01:01 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: WHER in the world are you
01:01 PM nikre: hmm?
01:01 PM LeelooMinai: There's a lot of confusing things in the homing docs imo - it's a minefield:)
01:01 PM IchGucksLive: USA Europ
01:01 PM nikre: i want to have the z axis go down 3mm after touching limit switch
01:01 PM IchGucksLive: im in Germany
01:01 PM nikre: eu
01:02 PM IchGucksLive: YES you did the Zaxis the Wrong way
01:02 PM IchGucksLive: USE HOME = -3
01:02 PM IchGucksLive: HOME_OFFSET = 0
01:03 PM nikre: great! i think im consistent with the description tho
01:03 PM IchGucksLive: ,and it will work
01:03 PM nikre: tyvm guys
01:03 PM LeelooMinai: nikOr set HOME_OFFSET to 3 I think
01:03 PM LeelooMinai: Should have same result (
01:03 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: this will grap him 3mm of the work area
01:04 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: and crash if overshoot to zero
01:04 PM LeelooMinai: That's just a mater of limit settings, no?
01:04 PM IchGucksLive: MAX_LIMIT = 0.001
01:04 PM LeelooMinai: Right, so need to be adjusted.
01:04 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: set this to 0.5mm
01:04 PM nikre: ok
01:05 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: on AXIS X its also wrong
01:06 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: i assume your switch is at negativ X
01:06 PM LeelooMinai: HOME_OFFSET should be explained differently imo: there's confusion there between what is home point.
01:06 PM nikre: i had assumed the variable is related to position before reading the doc. but those axes worked fine
01:06 PM nikre: i mean min/max_limit
01:06 PM IchGucksLive: ok
01:07 PM IchGucksLive: the homing is wrong on X and Y according to ini inputs
01:07 PM nikre: it is min. x idd
01:07 PM IchGucksLive: nikre: on mechanical switch you can overshot 0,5
01:08 PM IchGucksLive: ones more THE Home is whaer the mashine ends up afer triggering the switch
01:08 PM LeelooMinai: Axis 0 looks weird too: HOME_OFFSET is 0 and MAX_LIMIT is 200 and search is positive...
01:08 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: yopu got it
01:10 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: as also Y
01:10 PM nikre: i will consider these guys tyvm
01:11 PM LeelooMinai: nikre: HOME_OFFSET is "when the switch activation procedures are done, HOME_OFFSET specifies what the current position with respect to the final 0 on that axis is", or something close to that
01:12 PM LeelooMinai: It has misleading name unfortunatelly.
01:13 PM LeelooMinai: It's more like HOMING_SWITCH_OFFSET
01:15 PM LeelooMinai: Today I learned new machining expression: "Mickey Mouse Corners"
01:19 PM Jymmm: Laser SMT soldering... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnyB9btlhS8
01:20 PM IchGucksLive: LeelooMinai: "Mickey Mouse Corners" = G64 P01
01:20 PM gregcnc: leeloominai in normal terms drilled corner relief
01:20 PM IchGucksLive: om im off GN8
01:20 PM LeelooMinai: Not sure why they are needed - you can use an endmill with infinitelly small diameter in infinite time.
01:24 PM Jymmm: Samuri vs Robot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6UxmpbSQGU
01:25 PM TurBoss: hello!
01:25 PM LeelooMinai: I bet on the robot:)
01:25 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: Eh, no style imo
01:25 PM LeelooMinai: It doesn't need style - that's the style:p
01:26 PM Jymmm: LeelooMinai: Nah, in that case that's what chainsaws are for
01:54 PM Crom: Well I typed nite nite last night... didn't hit the enter key hard enough
02:06 PM Crom: This sucks... I can port forward stuff from the inet side... I can't forward from inside...
02:07 PM Jymmm: what?!
02:08 PM Crom: I have a jet direct off .251, I'm off .250 and .254 is the gateway I can see .250,.251,.254, I can't see .249 which is the jetdirect which is behind .251
02:08 PM Jymmm: 251 being what?
02:09 PM Crom: My network routers .254, .253, .252, .251, .250, My Machines are .31 and .52 and they are connected to .250, the jet Direct .249 is wired to router .251
02:11 PM cradek: a router with the same subnet on both interfaces makes no sense, unless it is actually a bridge
02:11 PM Jymmm: routers... plural?!
02:11 PM Crom: yes they're all bridged..
02:11 PM Jymmm: I have nfc what you have there, so good luck with that.
02:12 PM cradek: if you're asking for help, maybe make a diagram?
02:12 PM Crom: Neither do I... I'm still figuring out DD-wrt after 10 years
02:12 PM Jymmm: 5 routers for a LAN all on the same subnet, no thanks
02:13 PM Jymmm: are these routers or acting an AP's ?
02:13 PM Jymmm: as*
02:14 PM Jymmm: Crom: Technically, I know what you have, just not willing to touch that nightmare =)
02:15 PM Crom: My choices are Gateway, BGP, RIP2 Router, Router
02:15 PM Jymmm: Crom: What is the actual PURPOSE of all these routers?
02:15 PM Tom_itx: connectivity
02:15 PM Tom_itx: silly
02:15 PM Crom: The are basically range boosters
02:16 PM Jymmm: Crom: So, they are actually multiple AP's
02:16 PM Jymmm: ???
02:17 PM Crom: pretty much
02:17 PM Jymmm: fuck routing. Give them all the same SSID, on different channels. make one the main that just passes-thru all the dhcp to the rest. done.
02:20 PM Jymmm: Well, you don't HAVE to give each one a different channel I supose.
02:23 PM Jymmm: I've done this WITHOUT the use of OpenWRT. You just disable the dhcp on the AP's
02:26 PM Crom: yeah .254 is the only dhcpd...
03:09 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe I was naive, but, over past 2 years a got quite a bit endmills, for days like today, where I actually will try milling alu, but all of them are carbide... And last time I tried to use 1.5 mm small carbide endmill like this it broke pretty much on the first change of direction in a pocket...
03:10 PM LeelooMinai: So, I guess my question is if small endmils like this from carbide are even a good idea for aluminum.
03:10 PM cradek: 1.5mm! what spindle speed and depth of cut were you using?
03:10 PM LeelooMinai: Say, to make corners shareper.
03:11 PM LeelooMinai: cradek: Well, I was trying to follow my theoretical "investigation", as to the milling parameters, but it did not help much.
03:11 PM LeelooMinai: So now I wonder, if not drill corners or something and use bigger endmill upon that to clear the rest?
03:13 PM LeelooMinai: cradek: I used 1 mil per tooth chip thickness or what they call it.
03:15 PM LeelooMinai: But, in general I just wonder if such tiny carbide mills are used a lot - because regardless of settings and the machine being ideal, seems to me that they just beg to break at every oportunity.
03:15 PM gregcnc: of course they are
03:16 PM gregcnc: what was your endmill runout we discussed the other day?
03:16 PM LeelooMinai: I want to start making this today, and it's tiny, 1 inch or so: http://i.imgur.com/k6lpxVz.png :/
03:17 PM LeelooMinai: gregcnc: 1.2mil, but not 100% sure as I was not tightening the nut at the correct torque when I measured it. O guess with that runout 1mil CPT is going to fail?
03:18 PM gregcnc: so .001" runout, and .001" feed per tooth what's going to happen?
03:18 PM cradek: heh depends on the spindle speed
03:18 PM cradek: but probably nothing good
03:19 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I had impressions that it was not cutting but sliding...
03:19 PM LeelooMinai: I guess too low CPT is bad by itself too.
03:20 PM LeelooMinai: Maybe baby steps - I will first try to face a cube for this with largest endmill I can put in there - so 6mm only or close to 1/4 inch.
03:21 PM LeelooMinai: Using lame cheap vise I have, but at least it's low profile and looks like milling vise more or less.
03:21 PM gregcnc: http://www.kyoceramicrotools.com/micro/speeds-feeds/
03:23 PM LeelooMinai: Rifhgt, no, I did calculations, etc., but, from what I researched it's kind of an art and there are many variables, and I should not pay too much attention to surface speed recommended for example.
03:23 PM gregcnc: most manufacturers will have recommendations, but experience with your machine and actual tools will tell the real story
03:24 PM FinboySlick: Manufacturers usually don't account for 'hobby-type' machine vibration levels either.
03:24 PM LeelooMinai: Is facing with a 6mm endmill weird or just slow?
03:24 PM gregcnc: I did it for many years
03:24 PM FinboySlick: If that's all you've got...
03:24 PM FinboySlick: LeelooMinai: Are you lower-bound on spindle speed?
03:25 PM FinboySlick: A mini fly-cutter might be worthwhile for you if you can spin slow enough.
03:25 PM LeelooMinai: Well, I can run it at 100rpm min, but what torque it has then - no idea. It was suggested that probably not much, and I did not research if there's any practical way of measuring torque for a spindle yet.
03:26 PM FinboySlick: Look at something like the Sherline fly cutter then.
03:27 PM LeelooMinai: I think once I looked at something like this, but there was almost none for sub 1/2 inch collets.
03:28 PM FinboySlick: LeelooMinai: Yeah, you'd have to make/modify your own, but it might be worthwhile.
03:29 PM LeelooMinai: When I look at that fly cutter I think that making that polycarbonate cover for the table was a good idea:)
03:29 PM LeelooMinai: In casy one day I will try one.
03:29 PM FinboySlick: http://sherline.com/product/7620-single-flute-insert-fly-cutter/ worked well on my sherline.
03:29 PM LeelooMinai: Are those things supposed to be balanced even?
03:30 PM FinboySlick: They try but it's never perfect.
03:30 PM SpeedEvil: LeelooMinai: not really
03:30 PM LeelooMinai: Looks pretty scary to me.
03:30 PM SpeedEvil: LeelooMinai: the cutting forces pretty much utterly dwarf the balance
03:30 PM gregcnc: try not to touch it wile it's running
03:31 PM LeelooMinai: I have some experience with spinning my indicator by accident at 8k RPM
03:31 PM SpeedEvil: Did it indicate it was unhappy?
03:31 PM FinboySlick: Hasn't happened to me yet but I suspect it eventually will.
03:32 PM LeelooMinai: I almost got a heart attack - thought that there's an earthquake:)
03:32 PM FinboySlick: 8k RPM is my minimum speed so I pray I'll be at the lowest setting if/when it happens.
03:33 PM LeelooMinai: FinboySlick: You are a dentist? :p
03:33 PM FinboySlick: My spindle does 8-24k.
03:33 PM FinboySlick: Can't handle anything bigger than 7mm.
03:33 PM LeelooMinai: Well, but why the lower limit? Mine is 0-22kRPM in theory
03:34 PM FinboySlick: It doesn't really spin if I ask for less.
03:34 PM LeelooMinai: Cheapish Chinese AC spindle that is.
03:34 PM FinboySlick: Likewise.
03:34 PM LeelooMinai: FinboySlick: Probably more of a VFD problem?
03:34 PM FinboySlick: Could be. I don't speak chinese well enough to configure it.
03:35 PM FinboySlick: That is if I could even find the documentation.
03:35 PM LeelooMinai: Or some settings. I remember I had to do quite a bit configuring for GS2 VFD I have before everything matched.
03:36 PM FinboySlick: Mine is supposed to be factory-matched. But it's also supposed to match what was on the spec sheet and that didn't turn out so well.
03:36 PM LeelooMinai: So what was wrong?
03:36 PM LeelooMinai: 1cm runout? :)
03:36 PM FinboySlick: out of tram, and none of the rails are parallel.
03:37 PM LeelooMinai: A, the wqhole CNC?
03:37 PM FinboySlick: Yup.
03:37 PM FinboySlick: No tram adjustments either.
03:37 PM FinboySlick: Bolted and pinned.
03:37 PM LeelooMinai: Right, well, I would expect those cheap ones being more like a start to actually get something usable aafter a lot of modifications and tinkering.
03:38 PM FinboySlick: It was pretty expensive.
03:38 PM LeelooMinai: Not one of those $1k Chinese ones?
03:38 PM FinboySlick: It was more of a 6k Chinese one.
03:39 PM LeelooMinai: Heh, you should have just got the Tormach one maybe? :)
03:39 PM LeelooMinai: I think they have even sub $10k models (?)
03:40 PM FinboySlick: Yeah. Back then they only had the 10k models but that would have made me happier.
03:41 PM LeelooMinai: They seem to be good value for small shops.
03:41 PM LeelooMinai: Or even hobbysits that have money.
03:42 PM FinboySlick: It's one of these: http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/image/upload/c_limit,fl_lossy,h_9000,w_1920,f_auto,q_auto/v1/810009/20140627223016_nsowbx.jpg
03:43 PM LeelooMinai: They actually sent this from China?
03:44 PM FinboySlick: Canadian distributor, but yeah, it's sort of made to order.
03:44 PM FinboySlick: Actually, mine isn't quite as fancy as that.
03:44 PM FinboySlick: The head is different anyway.
03:45 PM FinboySlick: And the oiler is automatic and on the other side.
03:45 PM LeelooMinai: I think I saw machines that looked similar in KBC catalogue. I mean similar in terms of design.
03:48 PM FinboySlick: http://res.cloudinary.com/hrscywv4p/image/upload/c_limit,fl_lossy,h_9000,w_1920,f_auto,q_auto/v1/810009/20140628094231_hgselq.jpg is closer to mine.
03:48 PM FinboySlick: No wonder it sucks, they use it to produce their own parts ;)
03:51 PM LeelooMinai: I shal now use this $20 vise for the machining operation... what can go wrong.
03:51 PM LeelooMinai: http://i.imgur.com/ocMsXUo.jpg
03:52 PM Crom: LeelooMinai: just like my irwin... I use a clamp to hold down the moving jar
03:53 PM LeelooMinai: The jaws are parallel to +/-10mm
03:55 PM Crom: mine are like +- 11mm and rock is about 0 to +4mm
03:55 PM LeelooMinai: Hmm, it has a sharp edge on one jaw - sticking like 0.5mm out and sharp... I guess I first better file it or something:)
03:55 PM Crom: I'm saving for a proper vise with a hold down wedge
03:56 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I will get something eventually too - this is just "for testing"
04:00 PM Deejay: gn8
04:04 PM LeelooMinai: lol, jaw vs machinist square 0:1
04:05 PM LeelooMinai: I think this may be useless
04:07 PM sync: you should have spent your 20 cdn on one of those grinding vises
04:09 PM LeelooMinai: I detached the jaws - seems that the cast base is not too bad, so it's the jaws - they are like banana - I probably should try to lap them or something.
04:10 PM LeelooMinai: Something low-tech brutal - maybe using belt sander upside down...
04:11 PM LeelooMinai: They seem like machined with an angle grinder anyways - cannot make it worse.
04:12 PM LeelooMinai: sync: What is a grinding vise?
04:13 PM sync: we talked about that yesterday
04:13 PM LeelooMinai: Toomaker vise is a grinding vise too?
04:16 PM LeelooMinai: I think this abomination I have is "drill press vise"
04:18 PM sync: yes
04:52 PM LeelooMinai: My hand sander impressed me - made those jaws almost mirror like, but I got tired eventually.
04:52 PM LeelooMinai: Not that they will be parallel to anything, but at least look flat.
06:24 PM JT-Shop: XXCoder: flying the Q100 a few times... pretty cool
07:28 PM Cromaglious_: This is beyond crazy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
07:29 PM LeelooMinai: Is that a parody? :)
07:32 PM Cromaglious_: hehe.. they are saying it's bunk... I don't think so...
07:34 PM LeelooMinai: It looks ridiculous and is probably useless with a bow that could do actual damage:)
07:39 PM TurBoss: hello
07:50 PM justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser
07:51 PM roycroft: so i went back to the paint store today to get more paint
07:51 PM roycroft: first paint i bought from them the color was $55.41 for 3/4 quart
07:51 PM roycroft: expensive, but still about 1/2 what i had been paying elsewhere
07:51 PM roycroft: they had my account set up today
07:51 PM roycroft: and now that i'm on account, that same paint was $20.53
07:52 PM roycroft: for the same amount
07:52 PM roycroft: the stuff is actually affordable now :)
08:04 PM Tom_L: who sells 3/4 quarts? that seems silly
08:04 PM Tom_L: unless it's 2 part
08:15 PM LeelooMinai: On a scale 1-10, how dumb is just buying $20 set of 1-2-3 blocks and use it on a table for clamping instead of costly vise? :)
08:19 PM SpeedEvil: err - what?
08:20 PM LeelooMinai: Don't know what more I can add to that:p
08:21 PM LeelooMinai: I mean what I wrote - use them as two jaws for clamping basically.
08:22 PM roycroft: it would be inconvenient, leeloominai
08:22 PM roycroft: but if you tram one of them accurately you could get by for a bit with that kind of setup, for very small parts
08:23 PM roycroft: i'd say, with 10 being dumbest and 1 being best practice, it's a 5 or 6 if you have no money, and a 9.5 if you can scrape up the money for something resembling a proper vise
08:24 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I was thinking screwing one of the from the top, aligning to X axis and leave it set and the other I would clamp each tome both from the top and to the other one with threaded rods, - I would have those two screws sticking up though, but right, maybe I should just admit defeat and buy 3 inch precise vise + parallel set - would cost me $200 CAD or so:(
08:25 PM roycroft: and for all but the very smallest mill i'd get at least a 4" vise
08:25 PM LeelooMinai: I am thinking this: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00HYKO7MQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A32NIDEAQZYLTL&psc=1
08:25 PM roycroft: a 6" is the most useful and common size, but on a mill-drill it is too big
08:26 PM roycroft: those parallels are fine
08:26 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I cannot really buy anything sensible larger thatn 3". I found only this: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00E0NBLB0/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
08:27 PM roycroft: i would get a bench vise before a toolmaker's vise
08:27 PM LeelooMinai: I mean for my cnc bed - cannot realy attach a bench vise to it...
08:29 PM roycroft: get a milling vise for that
08:30 PM roycroft: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1647&category=1963256912
08:30 PM roycroft: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1879&category=1963256912
08:30 PM roycroft: 4" would be better if your table will handle it
08:31 PM roycroft: but something like that should be your primary vise on the machine
08:31 PM roycroft: you can set parallels on that
08:31 PM roycroft: you can clamp a toolmaker's vise in it
08:31 PM roycroft: the swivel base is useless, imo
08:32 PM roycroft: so don't pay extra for one
08:32 PM roycroft: all it does is add height
08:32 PM LeelooMinai: Right, looks nice, but probably won't find good-priced one like that in Canada
08:32 PM roycroft: it's for you to determine what you can afford
08:33 PM roycroft: i'm trying to show you what would work best
08:33 PM roycroft: and note that i'm not showing you kurts :)
08:33 PM roycroft: a kurt would be even better, as it's more precise and has a much smoother action
08:33 PM roycroft: but i know budget is always an issue
08:34 PM LeelooMinai: Right, no, no Kurt, it's just a hobby.
08:34 PM roycroft: and the imported milling vises can work just fine
08:34 PM roycroft: for about 1/3 the cost of a kurt
08:34 PM roycroft: or maybe 1/4 the cost
08:35 PM roycroft: if you can find a 4" milling vise for CAD$200, and you should be able to, that and a set of 1/8" thick parallels would be a good start
08:36 PM roycroft: you do have a set of hold-down clamps, no?
08:36 PM LeelooMinai: Yes, I do
08:36 PM roycroft: you probably want a set in 9mm/3/8"
08:36 PM roycroft: brilliant
08:38 PM roycroft: if your budget absolutely won't allow a proper vise, the 1-2-3 blocks will do, at least for a while
08:38 PM roycroft: and they are useful for so many other things you need at least one pair anyway
08:38 PM roycroft: but i promise you will quickly become frustrated using them as your primary vise
08:39 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I have a pair of them already - used them for many things.
08:39 PM roycroft: and they really aren't very good as a vise, as you can't apply anything approaching inward (between the two blocks) clamping pressure with them
08:39 PM roycroft: they're good for supporting parts above the table so you can mill through features
08:40 PM roycroft: it's hard to have too many 1-2-3 blocks
08:40 PM roycroft: but i would argue that it's even harder to not have a real vise :)
08:41 PM LeelooMinai: Right, I see them on all CNC videos.
08:41 PM roycroft: you're back east, aren't you?
08:42 PM roycroft: not in the lower mainland bc?
08:42 PM LeelooMinai: I am in Ontario, Canada
08:42 PM roycroft: yeah, the east coast :)
08:42 PM roycroft: i only ask because grizzly imports are in bellingham, washington
08:42 PM roycroft: and if you were in the vancouver area it would be easy to pop down and pick up a vise
08:42 PM jdh: you can get a useable vise pretty cheap
08:43 PM * roycroft isn't familiar with canadian machinists suppliers, but imagines there are some low-price suppliers of imported tooling just as there are in the us
08:44 PM LeelooMinai: I only ordered from a place called KBC
08:44 PM roycroft: canadian tire used to have some of that stuff, i remember from when i lived by the border
08:44 PM roycroft: but they seem to have mostly gotten out of that now
08:44 PM LeelooMinai: Right, no machining stuff now
08:44 PM roycroft: ask some of the canadians here where they get their supplies
08:44 PM roycroft: there are several on this channel
08:45 PM roycroft: you're not the only one, that's for sure
08:47 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.ca/Techtongda-Milling-Machine-Lockdown-Hardened/dp/B01M7S6E81/ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1494292592&sr=1-8&keywords=milling+vise
08:47 PM roycroft: there you go
08:47 PM roycroft: CDN$119 +$52.02 shipping
08:47 PM roycroft: CDN$171.02 delivered
08:48 PM roycroft: you can use the swivel base as a nice paperweight
08:48 PM LeelooMinai: Right, not sure though from whre they ship - sometimes some sellers ship from china and it takes months to get the stuff.
08:48 PM roycroft: amazon are usually not that slow
08:51 PM roycroft: but if you want to know, add it to your cart, and go to checkout
08:51 PM roycroft: it will tell you when to expect delivery before you're asked to give financial information
08:52 PM LeelooMinai: Seems may 17-26
08:53 PM roycroft: that's not too bad
08:53 PM roycroft: and really not a bad price
08:54 PM roycroft: CDN$171.02 is about US$123
08:54 PM roycroft: which is about what the one on sale from littlemachineshop.com costs
08:54 PM roycroft: and there's shipping on top of that from littlemachineshop.com
08:55 PM roycroft: if money is really tight you could skip the parallels at first, and rely on soft jaws that you make for the vise to use in lieu of parallels
08:55 PM roycroft: but i would advise trying to get a set of parallels along with the vise
08:59 PM LeelooMinai: What about this weird vise? azon.ca/Quick-Release-Drilling-Milling-Machine/dp/B01FOQK3B0/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1494293198&sr=8-20&keywords=milling+vise
08:59 PM LeelooMinai: Er, https://www.amazon.ca/Quick-Release-Drilling-Milling-Machine/dp/B01FOQK3B0/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1494293198&sr=8-20&keywords=milling+vise
09:01 PM Cromaglious_: been thinking about a way to add hold down to my Irwin drill press vise
09:02 PM malcom2073: LeelooMinai: I wouldn't trust milling anything that isn't a screw vise
09:02 PM malcom2073: Drilling maybe
09:04 PM Cromaglious_: it would be a link when you put force on it, the top is pushed by the screw, the middle pushes the vise jaw down and sideways, and the bottom grabs the bottom as it's pulled up.
09:07 PM roycroft: yeah, that vise is way too lightweight for milling
09:10 PM Vitran: I don't have much stainless experience. I was told by a person I wouldn't trust in terms of machining things say that stainless needs flood and not mist
09:11 PM Vitran: Anyone else have some pointers on that?
09:12 PM Vitran: It was 304, 3/16" thick, 1/2" end mill going at 1469rpm. Worked well, but chattered a bunch.
09:12 PM Vitran: being a big plate and all
09:28 PM Cromaglious_: 304 is pretty gummy
09:28 PM Cromaglious_: how big of a chip was it cutting?
09:30 PM Cromaglious_: it being plate is another issue. the end mill cutting the gummy 304 was defleting the plate up until it cut. If you had a down cut end mill
09:33 PM Vitran: it was an upward cut. I had 1.5thou per tooth. It was a square 20"x20" plate that had to be a 20" round plate.
09:33 PM Vitran: I'd likely get more clamps if I had to do it again. 4 was not enough
11:44 PM Crom: heh get some 1 1/8" sub floor and make a clamp out of that... cut 1/2, then move interior clamps to other side and finish cut.