#linuxcnc Logs

Feb 22 2017

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:02 AM pink_vampire: chopper79: sounds very cool thing!
12:04 AM pink_vampire: chopper79: how did you learn it?
12:04 AM chopper79: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/30-cnc-machines/32122-1982-matsuura-mc-500v-retrofit?start=60#88482
12:06 AM chopper79: Those are the links to all the stuff I went through. Also the fine help from people on here as well. Which by the way.... THANK YOU for all the help. You know who you are.
12:09 AM CaptHindsight: chopper79: I have a Matsuura 710V that I needs a working changer
12:09 AM CaptHindsight: need/needs
12:10 AM CaptHindsight: oh the 500 is pneumatic
12:11 AM chopper79: pneumatic mag down other then that and the tool release it is all motors
12:12 AM pink_vampire: why the tool changing is not smooth?
12:12 AM CaptHindsight: I come across 500's all the time
12:12 AM chopper79: pink_vampire: explain?
12:12 AM pink_vampire: it geneva drive?
12:13 AM pink_vampire: it stop in each tool, and jump to the next one, instead of going to the right one,
12:14 AM pink_vampire: chopper79: ^
12:14 AM chopper79: I got an etire second machine worth of parts when I purchased mine. All servoes, boards, tool changer, spindle cartridge, spindle motor, etc. $800 for all. Had a bad controller so naturally switched it to LCNC. I have all the yasnac MX1 boards and control.... well 2 sets of those now
12:15 AM chopper79: pink_vampire: The tool changer is based on a geneva gear so it will be one pocket at a time like that. Its 1982 tech...lol
12:16 AM chopper79: anybody need any parts let me know..... garage is full of them and need to make room.
12:16 AM pink_vampire: I need
12:16 AM pink_vampire: what kind of parts do you have?
12:17 AM chopper79: parts for the matsuura mc-500v2
12:17 AM chopper79: to many to list so if you have one of these or a mill that shares parts then ask me I might just have the part.
12:18 AM pink_vampire: no.. I have the G0704, but I tough you have stuff like tools and such.
12:19 AM chopper79: no tools
12:20 AM pink_vampire: what kind pf stuff do you make?
12:20 AM chopper79: well.... my beer is about empty and it is 11:50pm so time for me to hit the sack! Have a good night everyone
12:21 AM pink_vampire: mmm
12:45 AM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/products/measuring/layout-setup-tools/electronic-edge-finder "Repeatability T.I.R within .0002""
12:48 AM CaptHindsight: not even close, I just measured one out by 0.009"
12:49 AM Wolf_: I have https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/89350664 I wonder how bad it is…
12:50 AM CaptHindsight: I was just looking at that
12:51 AM CaptHindsight: 0.009" is ridiculous
12:51 AM Wolf_: I tried using it a couple times, I usually use my B&S 1/2 mechanical
12:52 AM pink_vampire: just now the first cut end!
12:52 AM Wolf_: wow that was slow
12:53 AM pink_vampire: i know
12:57 AM Wolf_: you need a bandsaw :P
01:07 AM pink_vampire: OMG
01:09 AM pink_vampire: Wolf_: I just used 11/16 endmill for rough cut the side of the raw stack (2"x3" X 14") and it make such a pile of chips in no time!!
01:10 AM Wolf_: yeah
01:10 AM pink_vampire: the chips are sooo long
01:14 AM Wolf_: aluminum is fun
01:15 AM pink_vampire: Wolf_: http://i.imgur.com/Z0a5grd.png
01:16 AM Wolf_: :)
01:24 AM Wolf_: I need to get my other mill done…
01:26 AM Wolf_: http://i.imgur.com/fIhz3fa.jpg my chips aren’t that big
02:03 AM Longbow: morning
02:06 AM pink_vampire: I did a bit of cleanup here
02:07 AM pink_vampire: and now I have one more piece on the power hacksaw
02:07 AM pink_vampire: Wolf_: you need to use more of your cutter, you are dusting the material
02:08 AM Wolf_: the x1 can’t handle the side load
02:10 AM pink_vampire: you need to cut very thin but to use the whole cutter.
02:11 AM pink_vampire: it will cut faster
02:11 AM pink_vampire: Wolf_: ^
02:11 AM Wolf_: my cuts are set by chipload
02:39 AM Deejay: moin
04:56 AM XXCoder: hey pi
04:56 AM XXCoder: pink_vampire:
04:56 AM XXCoder: clean cut.
04:57 AM XXCoder: also largest thing I hve ever seen you work on heh
05:10 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: yeah
05:10 AM pink_vampire: did you saw my new necklace?
05:11 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: ^
05:11 AM XXCoder: n o?
05:11 AM XXCoder: heh typo
05:11 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: http://i.imgur.com/AJYdB6A.png
05:12 AM XXCoder: nice I remember you wanting one a while ago
05:12 AM XXCoder: you have one now
05:13 AM pink_vampire: but I need to find out why my power hacksaw cut soooo slow
05:15 AM XXCoder: yeah? dunno as I never used those
05:15 AM pink_vampire: about 2 hours for 2X3" aluminum
05:16 AM XXCoder: hmm sounds slow
05:16 AM XXCoder: dull blade? need oil?
05:16 AM pink_vampire: do you know what is the tpi that I need to use on aluminum?
05:16 AM XXCoder: nope as I never used one
05:19 AM jthornton: morning
05:20 AM Deejay: o/
05:20 AM pink_vampire: hi jthornton and Deejay
05:20 AM Deejay: hey pink :)
05:20 AM XXCoder: hey jt
05:20 AM Deejay: lunch is imminent
05:23 AM XXCoder: dinner is now
05:23 AM jthornton: coffee is now
05:47 AM jthornton: looks like a little cold snap this weekend
05:48 AM Deejay: finished with lunch ;)
05:48 AM XXCoder: done with dinner too
05:53 AM Deejay: midnight-dinner? ;)
05:53 AM XXCoder: yeah
05:53 AM XXCoder: I eat breakfast at noon
05:53 AM XXCoder: lunch at 8 pm
05:54 AM Deejay: eh, thats weird
05:54 AM Deejay: 8am is breakfast, lunch is 12am, 6pm is dinner ;)
05:55 AM XXCoder: I work 3:15 pm to 1:45 am
05:55 AM Deejay: ah okay
05:55 AM Deejay: time shift ;)
05:56 AM jthornton: I eat at 7 9 11 1 3 7
05:56 AM XXCoder: I eat when time digits total up to a prime number
05:58 AM nallar is now known as Ross
05:58 AM jthornton: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23
06:02 AM Deejay: haha
06:02 AM Deejay: 1 is also prime
06:02 AM XXCoder: its not
06:02 AM Deejay: whut? of course it is
06:02 AM XXCoder: 1 dont have different number to be divided by
06:02 AM XXCoder: prime definition requires two different number
06:02 AM Deejay: hm
06:02 AM Deejay: okay
06:02 AM jthornton: A prime number is a whole number greater than 1, whose only two whole-number factors are 1 and itself.
06:03 AM Deejay: okay, you guys are right. i did say nothing :/
06:03 AM XXCoder: so 2 is the first prime, AND the sole even prime
06:04 AM pink_vampire: I'm back
06:05 AM pink_vampire: I prepare small stock for a part
06:08 AM pink_vampire: the stock is 5.22g, and the part is 2.07g
06:08 AM pink_vampire: so I need to make about 3.15g of chips :)
06:08 AM XXCoder: fancy
06:09 AM pink_vampire: 60% chips
06:09 AM XXCoder: heh had worse ratios than that
06:09 AM XXCoder: reached 90%+
06:10 AM XXCoder: from block I can barely lift to part zI can hold by pinkie only
06:11 AM pink_vampire: sounds cool
06:18 AM XXCoder: its weird part
06:19 AM XXCoder: I guess it was insanely hard part to program for
06:19 AM XXCoder: as it has hollow arm that is basically trapezoid, with small opening
06:19 AM XXCoder: so tools had to get in in order to hollow it out
06:20 AM XXCoder: imange this, with depth. http://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/Isosceles_trapezoid.jpg
06:20 AM XXCoder: now imange the top as opening
06:20 AM XXCoder: and corners has to be cut out
06:20 AM XXCoder: theres some radius so not that sharp, though still hard
06:22 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: I'm not sure what do you mean
06:22 AM XXCoder: basicsally hollow shape part of part
06:45 AM pink_vampire: I need to get some sleep
06:53 AM XXCoder: use your friend mr. hammer
06:53 AM XXCoder: it can knock you out for good sleep
08:23 AM chopper79: gonna be an odd 73deg out today.... then a small cold snap this weekend. I hope that the cold snap is really cold and all the bugs that came about this week with the warm weather get killed.
08:24 AM _methods: hehe
08:24 AM _methods: that would be great
08:25 AM gregcnc: birds are chirping this morning, saw some plants poking out of the ground here in No IL
08:26 AM _methods: best winter ever
08:29 AM chopper79: central IL here
09:27 AM enleth: so I went ahead and actually modeled the ISO30 tool shank to make simulated test fits on the drawbar design: http://imgur.com/a/3ipRQ
09:28 AM enleth: F360 handles taper contact simulation pretty well
09:28 AM gregcnc: in what way?
09:33 AM enleth: I can select bodies and specific contact surfaces that need to have their collisions against each other simulated
09:33 AM Jymmm: I'm sorry folks, my internet connection has been going wacko (more so( the last few days, but I've been working on it for a couple of months now, Another (dumbass) tech is scheduled to come out this morning.
09:34 AM gregcnc: isn't mating two cones standard in CAD in 2017?
09:34 AM enleth: in realtime during modeling? not sure
09:35 AM enleth: I can move the shank and the drawbar around and they stop where they should
09:35 AM enleth: without switching to a different mode or something, just during regular modeling
09:35 AM gregcnc: ah OK
09:36 AM enleth: no need to position them, just smack one against the other with a sweeping mouse move, it ends up seated into the taper
09:38 AM enleth: same with the drawbar, it's got stop collars to limit movement range and I can just grab it and bang it against the shoulders in the spindle to see how the current dimensions affect the movement range
09:38 AM gregcnc: and what if you miss and hit the wrong feature?
09:39 AM gregcnc: how much work to fix it?
09:40 AM enleth: none, it keep track of the original positions of components
09:40 AM enleth: *keeps
09:42 AM JT-Shop: well crap I thought my win 7pc died with disk error press any key to restart but the floppy somehow was the first boot device lol
09:49 AM enleth: http://i.imgur.com/zbtIscF.png so that's the current idea for the lower end of the drawbar
09:51 AM enleth: a collar with a phosphor bronze ring that butts up against an internal shoulder while the last two turns of the thread are still engaged with the toolholder, to pop it off if it's still stuck in the taper at that point
09:53 AM enleth: at the same time, it permits inserting the holder almost all the way in, with the drive dogs engaged with the flange, before turning on the air wrench
09:53 AM enleth: avoids badly pinched fingers
09:54 AM Roguish_ is now known as Roguish
09:54 AM gregcnc: is that enough thread to last long? in reality you have counter sink and chamfers on the threads, no?
09:55 AM enleth: I'll have to adjust that, sure
09:57 AM enleth: but I'm probably going to buy 90% of my tooling from a single local vendor who makes all their ISO30 shanks identical above the flange, so I only need to account for one specific thread geometry
09:58 AM enleth: worst case, I could swap the bronze ring for a thicker one
09:58 AM enleth: the upper end is going to have a pretty thick bearing ring like that, which could be swapped for a thinner one at the same time to shift the movement range without restricting it
09:59 AM gregcnc: i hope you can get the spindle drilled, the rest is easy
10:01 AM archivist: I think I would be making a new spindle so I could put a worker back in :)
10:01 AM enleth: actually, one reason I made those drawings so detailed is to be able to have a completely new spindle made just in case
10:02 AM gregcnc: a new spindle shaft is probably an order of magnitude greater cost than gundrilling the existing
10:02 AM enleth: just in case, mind you
10:03 AM archivist: gun drilling hardened stuff :)
10:03 AM archivist: might warp
10:03 AM enleth: I don't expect it to be hardened all the way through
10:05 AM enleth: I recall reading somewhere on some machining forums that bridgeport spindles were usually case hardened
10:05 AM enleth: supposedly that came from an ex-employee
10:05 AM gregcnc: I think that would be normal
10:06 AM enleth: and this exact spindle type was available factory drilled in some versions of my mill
10:07 AM enleth: no idea if they would drill it after or before case hardening, though
10:11 AM archivist: I have had stuff warp during machining, I would drill before now :)
10:11 AM enleth: well, there isn't really anything I can do to predict or prevent that
10:11 AM enleth: other than not drilling
10:12 AM enleth: which means I'd need to buy a replacement spindle anyway to have a hollow one
10:27 AM gregcnc: eh time to learn how to write a zero shift program for fanuc lathe
11:06 AM roycroft: i wonder how many people who give negative reviews of screwdrivers actually know how to use a screwdriver properly
11:08 AM enleth: roycroft: judging by how many people know the difference between Philips and Pozidriv heads - not many
11:10 AM roycroft: if you're going to use a screwdriver as a chisel or a pry bar, get the cheapest ones you can get from hf
11:10 AM roycroft: so you can break the tool and injure yourself instantly, instead of drawing out the process
11:22 AM fl0rene: Hello to all, I have some problems to get my M6-Remap working correctly. I need some help!!! http://paste.ubuntu.com/24047390/
11:24 AM roycroft: it's funny that folks complain so much about phillips screwdrivers camming out, when that was the primary purpose for their design in the first place
11:24 AM roycroft: they're self-torque limiting
11:24 AM gregcnc: they are pure evil
11:24 AM roycroft: i wouldn't say that at all
11:24 AM enleth: they're a necessary evil
11:25 AM enleth: people just don't know when not to use Philips screws
11:25 AM roycroft: in the early 20th century factory workers were overtorqueing screws and shearing them off
11:25 AM roycroft: the phillips head was designed to ameliorate that problem
11:26 AM roycroft: and it's phillips, btw
11:26 AM roycroft: philips are a dutch electronics company :)
11:26 AM gregcnc: they don't always cam out https://www.instagram.com/p/BIv1dN9AaUY/
11:27 AM enleth: roycroft: right, thanks for the reminder
11:28 AM enleth: gregcnc: looks like hardened chinesium
11:29 AM gregcnc: the screw was forking tight and has a serrated head they were difficult to remove ~20y after being installed
11:29 AM roycroft: i did not say that they always cam out
11:30 AM roycroft: i said they are self-torque limiting
11:30 AM roycroft: if the tool breaks that's a form of torque limiting
11:30 AM gregcnc: if made of cheese
11:30 AM enleth: I've had those bits round off into a cone, or flatheads twist into a helix, but snap off like that? maybe once or twice, and I think it was a square bit
11:30 AM gregcnc: torque limiting function has been supercede by better designs
11:31 AM roycroft: i was discussing the history of the phillips drive
11:31 AM gregcnc: surebut who has 100yo screws or drivers laying around
11:31 AM roycroft: and complaints people make about it without knowing the history behind it
11:31 AM roycroft: "this sucks - it does exactly what it was designed to do!" is the argument
11:31 AM gregcnc: it simpoly is not expected to fail very easily today
11:32 AM roycroft: we have tools with more granular and accurate torque settings these days
11:33 AM roycroft: and thus we can use the tool for torque limiting and not the drive type
11:33 AM roycroft: which has brought about the dominance of torx drive screws for power driving, superceding phillips drive
11:34 AM enleth: it would help if flat head or cap head hex or torx screws were more readily available
11:34 AM roycroft: i still use phillips and slotted drive screws a lot, where they are visible
11:34 AM enleth: hex as in allen
11:34 AM roycroft: i think they're aesthetically a lot more pleasing than torx
11:34 AM enleth: hardware stores still mostly carry phil;ips, pozidriv and external hex screws and bolts
11:34 AM roycroft: i use socket head or button head screws almost exclusively on machinery
11:35 AM gregcnc: i wish torx were common in smaller sizes
11:35 AM roycroft: go to a big box home improvement store and you'll see almost all screws designed for wood in torx these days
11:35 AM roycroft: it's almost impossible to find a non-torx deck screw
11:35 AM enleth: yeah, deck screws are mostly torx nowadays, which is nice
11:36 AM roycroft: but back to the history, early 20th century air tools mostly had no clutch, and what clutches existed were not very accurate
11:36 AM enleth: those black drywalling screws you buy by the pound/kg, though? still phillips
11:36 AM roycroft: thus the need for the screw drive itself to be the torque limiter
11:39 AM gregcnc: these days you buy a 3" long drywall screw and want bury it in wood at 1500RPM. both screw and driver can do it, if it can't it sucks
11:39 AM roycroft: you use a screw gun that disengages at a preset depth
11:40 AM roycroft: again, the tool prevents shearing off the head
11:40 AM gregcnc: but it must be capable of handle the torque, non of this 2" and the driver or screw strips
11:41 AM roycroft: sheetrock is not very hard
11:41 AM roycroft: and we harvest our trees when they're barely big enough to cut a 2x4 out of them
11:41 AM gregcnc: the wood behind it may be
11:41 AM roycroft: so they're very young and very soft
11:42 AM roycroft: and people do shear off screw heads when doing remodeling
11:42 AM roycroft: but there is rarely any reason to use a 3" drywall screw ever
11:42 AM gregcnc: OK, my point is qaulity stuff is capable regardless of how it was designed 100y ago
11:42 AM roycroft: that's another problem
11:42 AM roycroft: overengineering
11:43 AM enleth: it doesn't help that those oxidated drywalling screws are brittle and prone to snapping
11:43 AM roycroft: which includes using fasteners way longer than they need to be
11:43 AM roycroft: 100 years ago people used nails for that stuff, not screws :)
11:43 AM roycroft: screws used to be very expensive
11:51 AM Tom_L: anybody need board standoffs.. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Promotion-50Pcs-M3-Male-Thread-Hex-Standoff-Hexagonal-Spacer/32694537687.html
11:51 AM Tom_L: hard to beat price
12:12 PM pink_vampire: morning
12:23 PM Deejay: good evening ;)
12:25 PM pink_vampire: hi Deejay
12:34 PM lunada_ is now known as lunada
01:50 PM R2E4_bevins: First job on the machine. In and out.
01:50 PM R2E4_bevins: 3hours faster than what I quoted....
01:50 PM JT-Shop: sweet
01:50 PM R2E4_bevins: This thing is RIGID.....
01:50 PM R2E4_bevins: Everythng worked perfect.
01:51 PM R2E4_bevins: Some things I have to do, mainly tool changer and figure out the offsets but man it went great.
01:51 PM Deejay: high speed, low drag
01:52 PM R2E4_bevins: JT-Shop: the guy told me today he tried to register but couoldnt for some reason. He is not 100 watts but I will check and register him.
01:52 PM R2E4_bevins: For those mesa boards
01:52 PM JT-Shop: ok, thanks I should have all the boards in stock tomorrow, missing one IIRC
01:52 PM R2E4_bevins: I have a feeling I will end up doing that job...lol
01:52 PM R2E4_bevins: HE was saying there was a cable out of stock.
01:53 PM * JT-Shop looks
01:53 PM R2E4_bevins: You have both the DB25 external and the cable for the second port?
01:53 PM R2E4_bevins: AH ok, I see
01:55 PM JT-Shop: https://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=71&product_id=70
01:55 PM JT-Shop: their in stock
02:20 PM R2E4_bevins: ok
02:21 PM lunada_ is now known as lunada
02:30 PM DaViruz: is there a convenient way to run a mesa machine configuration on a computer without a mesa card?
02:30 PM cradek: nope
02:31 PM DaViruz: :(
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: DaViruz: what are you trying to simulate or test?
02:33 PM DaViruz: mostly pyvcp-stuff
02:33 PM DaViruz: (with acompanying hal stuff)
02:36 PM DaViruz: i'm also having a weird issue with a rotary axis that gives following errors unless i set a stupidly high acceleration
02:36 PM DaViruz: (stepper)
02:36 PM DaViruz: so i was hoping to be able to diagnose it without access to the machine
02:41 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: ping
02:49 PM R2E4_bevins: enleth:pong
02:52 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: do I recall correctly that you have or know someone who has a CNC Bridgeport with a hollow (drawbar-capable) spindle?
02:53 PM R2E4_bevins: I think mine is. I dont have a drawbar, but I think you can install one. Why, need measurements or something?
02:55 PM JT-Shop: he knows me :)
03:01 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: yep. through-hole diameter at the splined end
03:01 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: and wall thickness between splines
03:07 PM R2E4_bevins: hmmm, ok I will check, from the top?
03:07 PM Jymmm: pcw_home: GREAT IDEA for cordless tools... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEWINnzllzc
03:13 PM R2E4_bevins: Have to remove vari-drive?
03:16 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: the far end of the spindle should be just below the top cap with the quill fully retracted
03:17 PM JT-Shop: mine has a plug in it with an encoder attached to that so I can't measure it
03:19 PM enleth: R2E4_bevins: there should be an easily removable plastic plug in the top cap if your varidrive is made like mine
03:21 PM Tom_L: 73F... seize the day
03:23 PM jdh: I did.
03:23 PM DieFledermaus is now known as ApocalypseCow
03:25 PM ApocalypseCow is now known as DogNipples
03:26 PM DogNipples is now known as ChickenBreast
03:26 PM ChickenBreast is now known as AdamWest
03:27 PM jdh: you have issues
03:30 PM AdamWest is now known as ApocalypseCow
03:35 PM enleth: JT-Shop: how is the encoder connected to the spindle?
03:35 PM enleth: or is it on the varispeed hub?
03:37 PM Tom_L: jdh, just a confused child
03:38 PM JT-Shop: I turned a plug with a couple of o-ring grooves and a stem sticking out for the encoder coupler
03:39 PM JT-Shop: http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/
03:40 PM JT-Shop: then I made a spacely sprocket to mount the encoder to the head
03:40 PM enleth: JT-Shop: the limits are pretty similar to factory limits on CNC models
03:40 PM Tom_L: fancy
03:40 PM JT-Shop: was fun to figure out lol
03:41 PM JT-Shop: yea they are analiam limits, used to be a 1100M
03:41 PM JT-Shop: conversion
03:42 PM Tom_L: http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bpel03.jpg
03:42 PM Tom_L: who still uses fanfold paper :D
03:42 PM enleth: JT-Shop: OK, so you are actually measuring speed of the secondary varispeed pulley hub/stub axis
03:43 PM enleth: JT-Shop: did you make some kind of "high gear/low gear" switch at the readout?
03:43 PM JT-Shop: nope it's on the spindle
03:43 PM enleth: wait, how is the plug connected to the spindle when the quill is retracted?
03:43 PM enleth: err
03:43 PM enleth: extended
03:44 PM JT-Shop: it's a Quik Switch 200 spindle
03:44 PM enleth: so?
03:44 PM JT-Shop: so technically it's not connected to the lower part of the quill
03:45 PM enleth: unless it's got a really weird varispeed pulley/backgear/whatever arrangement, the sleeve your plug sits in is only coupled to the spindle in high gear
03:45 PM enleth: in low gear, the backgear should move down, disengage the dog clutch from this sleeve and drive the spinlde at a 9x reduction
03:45 PM JT-Shop: standard varispeed
03:46 PM JT-Shop: I've never used the low range I have a vfd
03:46 PM enleth: ah, OK
03:46 PM enleth: so we're both technically correct
03:46 PM JT-Shop: I wonder if it even works lol
03:46 PM JT-Shop: the quill is shorter than a R8 with a draw bar
03:47 PM enleth: actually having a VFD does not reduce the utility of backgear mechanism
03:47 PM enleth: if you need really high torque at low speed, it's easier on the motor
03:48 PM enleth: unless you replaced the motor with a modern unit, the original one has some overheating problems at very low speeds
03:48 PM JT-Shop: the only time I run at 900 hz is when I'm tapping
03:48 PM enleth: it's safer to engage the low gear and let the motor run at high RPM
03:49 PM JT-Shop: it's the original motor, thought about changing it to a tooth drive a few times
03:49 PM JT-Shop: I imagine it is for long jobs
03:49 PM enleth: oh, and you get better low speed adjustment dynamic range
03:49 PM enleth: because the whole range of the VFD is scaled down
03:49 PM JT-Shop: sure but I don't need low gear for the things I make
03:50 PM enleth: fair enough
03:51 PM JT-Shop: and I need to get back to this tool plate :)
03:53 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop taps working ok in that casting?
04:00 PM JT-Shop: yea like butta 65% threads
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: is a Bridgeport considered worn if it has 0.050" of lash in the X and Y?
04:11 PM JT-Shop: good as a grizzly then
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: this one is from 1960
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: doesn't want to jump to the low speed. Needs some clutch fixin
04:12 PM JT-Shop: if the ways are ok a new screw and nut may fix that and it just might be loose
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: screws are worn, it gets tight on the ends of travel
04:15 PM XXCoder: is it upgradable?
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: ways are fine, just no signs of the original scraping
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: it's worth rebuilding, maybe go to ballscrews just for the low lash
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: no desire to CNC it
04:18 PM cradek: you don't want ballscrews on a manual mill
04:18 PM cradek: lash doesn't matter
04:18 PM cradek: ballscrews will let the axes move whenever you cut
04:20 PM roycroft: that's typical of bridgeports
04:20 PM roycroft: the backlash
04:20 PM roycroft: and what cradek said
04:20 PM roycroft: do not put ballscrews on a manual mill
04:21 PM XXCoder: ACME, allthread?
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: ballscrews with brakes
04:21 PM cradek: if you want to make it easier to use, not harder, add a DRO and leave the screws alone
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: I have the DRO's
04:21 PM roycroft: backlash is not a problem with a manual mill
04:22 PM roycroft: always index from one direction and you're fine
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: what do new screws cost?
04:22 PM roycroft: ONE MILLION DOLLARS
04:23 PM roycroft: http://www.icai-online.com/leadscrew-assembly/
04:24 PM roycroft: looks like $285 for x, and $138 for y from that vendor
04:26 PM XXCoder: I can say DRO is awesome
04:26 PM roycroft: i have a dro on my mill-drill
04:27 PM roycroft: it makes it about 10x more useful
04:27 PM roycroft: i got a shumatech years ago, when they were still available
04:28 PM CaptHindsight: I thought there was a ballscrew solution
04:28 PM CaptHindsight: for cnc conversions to run in manual mode with the hand cranks
04:29 PM roycroft: that's different than just replacing the acme screws with ball screws
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: servos in torque mode set to a few inch lbs?
04:29 PM roycroft: stepper motors will give you enough resistance
04:30 PM CaptHindsight: when powered off
04:30 PM roycroft: as they should be when you're machining in manual mode
04:31 PM CaptHindsight: so ballscrews with a slip clutch
04:31 PM Wolf_: just cnc it and manual machine from MDI lol
04:31 PM roycroft: i don't see the point in installing ball screws if it's only ever going to be a manual mill
04:32 PM roycroft: if you're going to cnc it later, perhaps it makes sense
04:33 PM roycroft: if not, just get some decent acme screws, new nuts, and adjust as much of the backlash out of it as you can
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: nah I have cnc's for cnc
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: looks like news acme screws and nuts will be ~$500
04:39 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matsuura-Vertical-Machining-Center-With-Video-/201821715645 $2500
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: I come across these and similar quite often for a few $K
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: why I have no need to convert a manual mill
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MATSUURA-MC-500V2-CNC-VERTICAL-MACHINING-CENTER-MC500V2/192086105188 $2k for a 500V
04:42 PM Deejay: gn8
04:46 PM Simonious: Is there a way to give a block XY coordinates in KICAD the way you can with a component?
05:00 PM chopper79: CaptHindsight: If you purchased that MC-500v2 I have a spindle drive for you. (shamless plug)
05:01 PM chopper79: dirt cheap I might add
05:11 PM CaptHindsight: chopper79: what I could use is something larger than a 710 or maybe a 500 with a 10-20K rpm spindle conversion
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/bridgeport-milling-machine/272564758560 $800
05:13 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
05:15 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-Mill-No-2-Vertical-Mill-/192085731650 $1500
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazak-AJV-35-60-CNC-Mill-3-Axis-Vertical-Milling-Machine-w-Mazatrol-M-32-Control/201821807629 at $800 no reserve
05:18 PM CaptHindsight: Rigging estimate: $4,160.25
05:19 PM CaptHindsight: so you are stuck with Boeings "approved" riggers
05:21 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazak-Mazatech-H-1000-3-Axis-Horizontal-Machining-Center-2-Pallet-CNC-Mill-1000Q/401277413451 even bigger ~70k lbs
05:36 PM enleth: cradek: uh, just use brakes with ballscrews and you'll be fine? you should always have an ability to lock axes on a manual mill and use it
06:20 PM pink_vampire: how do i fix play in the ball screw?
06:21 PM Wolf_: check the mounting at the ends, but if the play is in the actual balls, you can reload the ball nut with larger balls
06:22 PM chopper79: CaptHindsight: I agree.... Just throwing it out there.
06:23 PM pink_vampire: i have about 10 thousandth of play
06:26 PM Wolf_: how are the screw ends mounted?
06:26 PM pink_vampire: I'm trying to upload a video
06:28 PM bevins: JT you around?
06:33 PM JT-Shop: yea
06:58 PM pink_vampire: Wolf_: here?
06:58 PM Wolf_: there
06:59 PM pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Yv10QcSUs&feature=youtu.be
06:59 PM pink_vampire: this is the issue ^
06:59 PM * JT-Shop calls it a day
06:59 PM JT-Shop: goodnight
07:01 PM Wolf_: that isn’t really backlash, forces shouldn’t be a issue in those directions when the head on on the gibs
07:01 PM malcom2073: pink_vampire: is the ballnut moving, or the entire screw?
07:02 PM pink_vampire: just the nut is moving
07:03 PM malcom2073: At least it's only your vertical yeah?
07:03 PM Wolf_: putting a lever load on the nut in that way wont tell you what the backlash is
07:03 PM malcom2073: Hmm true, could be tilting
07:03 PM malcom2073: Which doesn't matter
07:04 PM pink_vampire: it is play between the ballnut to the ball screw
07:04 PM malcom2073: But which way? tilting play, or vertical?
07:04 PM malcom2073: Tilting is ok, since the ball nut doesn't tilt under normal circumstances
07:04 PM pink_vampire: just up down
07:05 PM Wolf_: I would make sure the screw has preload on it so it won’t move, and then check for backlash with the head attached and pushing the head up/down
07:05 PM malcom2073: Your video doesn't show that
07:05 PM pink_vampire: like a backlash
07:05 PM Wolf_: your vid is actually showing deflection of the screw when you lever on it
07:06 PM pink_vampire: no, it is not a screw deflection it is just the play between the nut and the screw
07:07 PM Wolf_: well, the ball nut isn’t made for load in that direction
07:07 PM pink_vampire: i'm pushing up and down with the screw driver
07:07 PM pink_vampire: and you can see the play.
07:08 PM Wolf_: yes, but when the head is installed that nut is solid and wont nod like that
07:08 PM pink_vampire: no
07:08 PM Wolf_: 0.o
07:08 PM pink_vampire: the cutting force push and pull on the Z axis
07:09 PM pink_vampire: you can't make heavy cut and only use the head weight
07:11 PM pink_vampire: also' I have A lot if friction in the dovetail/gib mechanism, so the head not falling down and preload the nut.
07:11 PM Wolf_: yes, that is correct, but your test with the screwdriver as a lever is not correct for that
07:11 PM sync_: still means the nut is shit
07:13 PM pink_vampire: the issue that I have is if I send g0 z0 -1, it actually go to -0.8 and after few cut it get deeper
07:13 PM Wolf_: how’s the preload on the screw
07:13 PM Wolf_: https://youtu.be/INhdy7bv-x0 <~ backlash
07:13 PM pink_vampire: so clearly the ballnut don't push the Z axis all the way
07:15 PM pink_vampire: Wolf_: is I have the same thing
07:15 PM Wolf_: on that machine it was caused by the screw moving
07:17 PM pink_vampire: I know what you think and no. is is not a force that deflect the screw, it is just very light move with my fingers that show the freedom in the ballnut.
07:18 PM pink_vampire: like the balls become smaller. or the nut become larger over time
07:18 PM Wolf_: yeah, then the ball nut either needs repacked with larger balls, or the screw is worn
07:19 PM pink_vampire: where do I get something like that?
07:19 PM pink_vampire: the balls are 3.175
07:20 PM Wolf_: 1/8 balls
07:20 PM pink_vampire: where I can get over size balls?
07:21 PM * Jymmm bites tongue
07:25 PM jdh: lmb2008
07:25 PM roycroft: pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgq-P_grmUw
07:26 PM jdh: have you repacked the ball since you got it? they are often missing a few.
07:29 PM Jymmm: pink_vampire: are you looking for for ballnut balls?
07:30 PM pink_vampire: yes.
07:30 PM Jymmm: hang on
07:30 PM pink_vampire: I have now 3.175
07:30 PM pink_vampire: or 1/8"
07:31 PM pink_vampire: and I need an over size ones to reduce the play in the nut
07:31 PM jdh: did you count them
07:32 PM pink_vampire: jdh: what do you mean?
07:32 PM jdh: lots of chinese ballnuts come with fewer than the correct number of balls
07:32 PM pink_vampire: I was load them until I can't push more balls
07:33 PM jdh: was it a multiple of 3?
07:33 PM pink_vampire: originally it was with missing balls
07:33 PM gregcnc: baltec.com
07:33 PM pink_vampire: I was had to add more
07:33 PM Jymmm: pink_vampire: These people are EXcELLENT, if you can go to their shop, then even let you find what size you need and repack the ballnut... http://www.precisionballs.com/Ball_Bearing_Steel.php
07:34 PM pink_vampire: what is the next size after 1/8"?
07:35 PM sync_: 1µm more
07:35 PM gregcnc: probably something like .125002
07:35 PM Jymmm: pink_vampire: they have 0.00015 increments at tha tlink I gave you
07:35 PM gregcnc: you have to look tat their list
07:36 PM gregcnc: measure what you have, so you know where to start
07:36 PM Jymmm: pink_vampire: Call them if you have any question, they know what amterial balls need to be
07:36 PM Roguish: Jymmm: I use Baltec for these amazing products: http://www.precisionballs.com/Kinematics_Components_Catalog_105B.php
07:36 PM pink_vampire: 5/32
07:36 PM pink_vampire: it is look way too big
07:36 PM Jymmm: Roguish: They are some really nice folks there
07:36 PM gregcnc: measure to .0001"
07:38 PM pink_vampire: now it is 3.175mm
07:38 PM gregcnc: how did you measure?
07:38 PM roycroft: i don't know what your exact application is, pink_vampire, ut we discussed ball screw nuts here at length a couple weeks ago
07:38 PM pink_vampire: this is what I load to them
07:38 PM roycroft: i was given a lot of links to information about ball screws
07:38 PM roycroft: and did a fair amount of research
07:39 PM roycroft: my conclusion at the end was that a good double nut is better than an overloaded single nut
07:39 PM Jymmm: pink_vampire: and use a BIG fluffy towel poofed up =)
07:39 PM roycroft: if you would be able to install double nuts, i would encourage you to do the research and decide what you think it best
07:39 PM jdh: won't an overloaded single nut lead to premature wear?
07:39 PM roycroft: that's one of the conclusions i drew, jdh
07:40 PM gregcnc: over loaded?
07:40 PM roycroft: some here disagree with me
07:40 PM roycroft: which is why i would encourage reading up and deciding for yourself
07:40 PM sync_: as long as you within the fretting limit, no premature wear will happen
07:40 PM roycroft: big balls, gregcnc
07:40 PM gregcnc: preloaded
07:40 PM Jymmm: jdh: overloaded or preloaded?
07:40 PM sync_: otherwise any preloaded bearing or a double nut screw would explode
07:40 PM roycroft: sorry, preloaded
07:41 PM Wolf_: oversized balls would wear faster if they were stuffed in something that was in spec for correct size
07:41 PM roycroft: although double nuts are a form of preloading
07:41 PM chopper79: In search of a larger timing gear. Needs to be about 5.5" OD and made of steel. I do not care about ID as Iwill be machining the center out anyway. I have had zero luck at Mcmaster and MSC. Anybody know of a good place for not a lot of money to find gears like that?
07:41 PM gregcnc: the big names of bearings disagree with you
07:41 PM jdh: chopper79: sdp-si perhaps
07:41 PM Wolf_: ^ that
07:41 PM pink_vampire: is there a way to know if the screw is damaged?
07:41 PM roycroft: with what?
07:41 PM Roguish: chopper79: what kind of timing gear? chain, belt or ???
07:41 PM chopper79: Have to sell one of my kids at their prices
07:42 PM chopper79: belt
07:42 PM pink_vampire: I don't know with what
07:42 PM Roguish: what pitch
07:42 PM pink_vampire: I'm asking how to test it
07:42 PM roycroft: i'm addressing gregcnc
07:42 PM pink_vampire: the pitch is 5mm
07:42 PM roycroft: what is this disagreement?
07:43 PM Roguish: chopper79: what pitch and tooth form is the belt?
07:43 PM gregcnc: ‹jdh› won't an overloaded single nut lead to premature wear?
07:43 PM gregcnc: [19:10:28]
07:43 PM gregcnc: ‹roycroft› that's one of the conclusions i drew, jdh
07:43 PM pink_vampire: maybe to get the dubble nut with the spring?
07:43 PM chopper79: I thought about just machining my own.... but if I can buy one then cool. XL belt type. As many teeth as I can get. Making an encoder
07:43 PM roycroft: oh, with that
07:43 PM roycroft: let me rephrase
07:44 PM roycroft: it would not necessarily lead to premature wear
07:44 PM Roguish: chopper79: are you going to run a belt, or just want the teeth for the encoder.??
07:44 PM chopper79: just the teeth
07:44 PM roycroft: but there would be less wear on a double nut system
07:44 PM roycroft: the word "premature" might be misplaced there
07:44 PM Wolf_: chopper79: junkyard car parts imo
07:44 PM roycroft: everything i read indicated that there would be less wear, all other circumstances the same, with a double nut system vs a single nut system
07:44 PM Roguish: use a bicycle chain ring. (that's the front one) lots of different sizes.
07:45 PM chopper79: as an outsider to the overload nut issue..... I have a GOOD friend that manufactures screws and yes oversized balls in the nuts will wear the screws out faster.
07:45 PM chopper79: my 2 cents worth
07:45 PM roycroft: each ball would have two contact points in a double nut sytem, vs. 4 contact points in a single nut
07:45 PM roycroft: i have to go meet friends for dinner now, so i'll bow out
07:45 PM pink_vampire: https://ja.aliexpress.com/store/product/diameter-20mm-ball-screw-DFU2005-length-700mm-plus-DFU2005-2005-double-ball-nut-CNC-DIY-Carving/834897_32697487351.html?detailNewVersion=&categoryId=200003886
07:45 PM gregcnc: on obbosite sides of the race
07:45 PM roycroft: all i'm doing is suggesting pink_vampire do some research on single vs. double nuts, if double nuts might work for her
07:46 PM chopper79: I thought about using a bicycle sproket
07:46 PM roycroft: i'm not saying which way she should go
07:46 PM gregcnc: 32 USD ballscrew?
07:46 PM gregcnc: buy a dozen, and replace them often?
07:46 PM pink_vampire: it is expensive?
07:46 PM Wolf_: sounds very cheap
07:47 PM gregcnc: an order of magnitutude cheap
07:47 PM Wolf_: like loaded with airgun bbs cheap
07:47 PM chopper79: Wolf: I thought about going to the junk yard and getting a cam pulley... we think alike it seems
07:47 PM Wolf_: =)
07:48 PM chopper79: poor tooth count though.... less ppr
07:48 PM pink_vampire: any good ones that will fit on 2005 ball screw?
07:48 PM Wolf_: I would just get a real encoder, whole $75
07:49 PM gregcnc: good what?
07:49 PM chopper79: I have a few 3000ppr yaskawa encoders.
07:49 PM chopper79: No good way to mount them though. The gear gives the best mounting options.
07:50 PM Wolf_: chopper79: http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders
07:51 PM Roguish: pink_vampire: just saw your youtube. The play looks to be more like rocking than actual play. have you considered that?
07:51 PM chopper79: Wolf: I have a few yaskawa encoders. No good way to mount them. The gear gives best mounting options.
07:51 PM chopper79: 3000ppr encoders
07:52 PM pink_vampire: Roguish: I know like 1 year ago it was less
07:52 PM Wolf_: e3 do up to 40k ppr
07:52 PM chopper79: I will look at it some more and see if I can come up with an solution to mount a normal encoder over a few beers.
07:53 PM Wolf_: I was looking at the e3 because thats whats on my servo motors
07:54 PM Wolf_: really I just need the spacer and centering tool, but if I need to take it off, why not upgrade
07:55 PM chopper79: brb
07:55 PM Roguish: pink_vampire: the screw should only apply axial force to what ever body is mounted to it. linear rails, or ways, should carry all the shear and moment loads.
07:56 PM pink_vampire: but here I have a play between the nut and the screw
07:56 PM pink_vampire: http://www.thomsonlinear.com/en/product/0215200185
07:56 PM pink_vampire: what 0.035 Nut Backlash, mean?
07:56 PM gregcnc: it's not a preloaded nut
07:58 PM pink_vampire: what does it mean?
07:58 PM gregcnc: clearance between balls and races allows that much backalash
08:00 PM pink_vampire: it is useful for a cnc?
08:00 PM sync_: no
08:03 PM gregcnc: their selection tool is not smart, you pick preloaded and it returns screws with backlash with the option of preload
08:03 PM pink_vampire: so where do I get a nut (or dual nut) that will reduce any backlash?
08:04 PM jdh: lmb2008
08:05 PM gregcnc: they have them, you just have to order it that way
08:25 PM MacGalempsy: hello.
09:21 PM malcom2073: Hi
10:11 PM EJRN: Hi,Does anyone have installed probe-screen in machinekit?
10:14 PM roycroft: i cannot find those gearwrench screwdrivers locally, but i did look at some irwin and stanley ones, as well as what sears have left in their craftsman line, and they are all crap
10:14 PM roycroft: as are huskey
10:14 PM roycroft: husky
10:15 PM roycroft: i think what i'll do is just get snapon, but only buy what i need as my ones become worn the point of being frustrating
10:15 PM roycroft: that way it won't seem like such a big hit
10:16 PM roycroft: on the snapon online store sets are not discounted from the price of the individual items - all you get for a set is a storage tray which i would toss anyway, as they take up too much room
10:17 PM roycroft: the snapon store also has free shipping on orders <$500, so there's no shipping cost advantage to buying a set vs. individual tools
10:18 PM roycroft: the snapon store is also cheaper than ebay for most new items
10:18 PM roycroft: and i would never buy used screwdrivers
10:19 PM roycroft: use wrenches/sockets, sure
10:25 PM EJRN: I have installed on debian jessie without success, the terminal shows related gladevcp issues
10:28 PM roycroft: i have installed linuxcnc on jessie with the preempt-rt kernel
10:28 PM roycroft: and i know others here have
10:32 PM EJRN: i trying to install probe-screen on machinekit
10:33 PM EJRN: This is probe-screen https://github.com/verser-git/probe_screen
10:35 PM roycroft: there are more people here during daytime hours in north america
10:35 PM roycroft: i'm not sure i can help you
10:35 PM roycroft: but others might
10:35 PM roycroft: so if you don't get any response tonight try again tomorrow during the day
10:36 PM EJRN: ok thanks any way
10:37 PM cradek: perhaps try the machinekit google group
10:38 PM cradek: it seems like your answer will probably be machinekit-specific
10:50 PM Jymmm: cradek: I was looking for you
10:51 PM Jymmm: cradek: know of any LIVE ps viewers?
10:52 PM cradek: same answer as last time, ghostview
10:52 PM cradek: it reloads any time the file changes
10:52 PM EJRN: i found machinekit google groups
10:52 PM Jymmm: cradek: Oh, I didn't see your response. My internet has been wacko for a while
10:53 PM cradek: yeah you just hit save in your editor and it regenerates
10:53 PM EJRN: i gonna see if they know somthing about that https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/machinekit
10:54 PM cradek: EJRN: hope you find your answer
10:54 PM Jymmm: cradek: Ok, the gv I found for osx is a lil strange, but I'll try it again. Else I'll grab a linux vm. thanks.
10:54 PM EJRN: cradek: ty
10:57 PM roycroft: i don't know anything about machinekit other than that it's a linuxcnc derivative
10:57 PM cradek: g'night
10:57 PM roycroft: how much it's diverged from the mother code i have absolutely no idea
11:00 PM EJRN: i know machinekit team are focus on portability of new hardware.
11:03 PM roycroft: so the netbsd of cnc software
11:06 PM EJRN: I even didn't know about netbsd OS xD
11:10 PM roycroft: it's one of the original bsd forks of 386bsd, the first open-source bsd distribution
11:10 PM roycroft: its focus is on hardware portability
11:11 PM MacTab: Man....that mexican food knocked me out
11:12 PM roycroft: we went to a new-to-us taco restaurant for dinner tonight
11:12 PM roycroft: it was excellent
11:12 PM roycroft: i had a mushroom taco and a seafood taco, which was scallops in a chipotle sauce
11:13 PM MacTab: After dieting the last few months that kicked my butt. Had the burrito, chile rellano and taco
11:13 PM Jymmm: roycroft: That aint mexican food, sounds like some fusion place
11:14 PM roycroft: there was lots of tequila!
11:14 PM roycroft: so it's mexican!
11:14 PM Jymmm: lol
11:14 PM Jymmm: stil aint mexican food =)
11:14 PM MacTab: Mexicano gringos ricos
11:15 PM MacTab: Jymmm whats going on with the garage furnace?
11:16 PM EJRN: You should taste "torta ahogada"
11:16 PM Tom_L: summer's coming now, why worry with it?
11:16 PM Jymmm: Thebest damn tacos I've ever had came off off a grill that looks like it was made from junkyard parts and well seasoned... OH MY GAWD it was good... He used this chili oil on the grill, then grilled up to tortillas in it, on one side, then the meat on the other side.... heavon
11:16 PM MacTab: So its ready next fall
11:17 PM Jymmm: MacTab: picked up a holesaw yeasterday. drilled one hol , then had to fix the wleder, and weld one part up, then it started to snow
11:18 PM Jymmm: Starting to get the hang up it and not bowing thru the barrel with the welder =)
11:18 PM Jymmm: blowing*
11:19 PM MacTab: Ha!
11:20 PM Jymmm: I think they FINALLY fixed my dsl only took 3 months
11:21 PM Tom_L: service guy showed up ehh
11:23 PM MacTab: Chap stick? :p
11:25 PM Wolf_: fixed dal? did they finally discontinue it?
11:25 PM Wolf_: dsl*
11:29 PM MacTab: Anyone know of a good app to use one android device as a bluetooth keyboard for another android device?
11:30 PM Jymmm: Yeah,a fucking bt keyboard =)
11:31 PM Jymmm: MacTab: This is hte kybd I use on my android phablet https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Wireless-Keyboard-Packaging-MC184LL/dp/B002TMRZOQ
11:31 PM Jymmm: (6.1" phone)
11:31 PM MacTab: Probably the best way. I got em at home but stuck on location.
11:32 PM Jymmm: It's small and thin enough to carry around with you.
11:32 PM Jymmm: and you get a REAL mybd too
11:32 PM Jymmm: kybd*
11:39 PM MacTab: Thats a nice one
11:44 PM CaptHindsight: https://imagebin.ca/v/3DLeSMcOZRVl how does one do this to a quill?
11:44 PM SpeedEvil: Practice.
11:45 PM Jymmm: MacTab: Yep, and you can get a silicone cover for it to keep the grease/coolant out of it too
11:45 PM CaptHindsight: "mark the quill so you can find the same depth"
11:49 PM MacTab: One I have is small and also doubles as a mouse
11:54 PM MacTab: Another slow night, they are coming out of the hole to pickup a rotary steerable
11:55 PM MacTab: 21000+ ft of pipe