#linuxcnc | Logs for 2017-01-27

[00:01:14] <Wolf_> hi
[00:11:50] <pink_vampire> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1945228
[00:12:14] <pink_vampire> Wolf_: ^
[00:13:10] <Wolf_> ^.^ not sure what you’re trying to say here lol
[00:14:07] <pink_vampire> read the comments..
[00:16:13] <Wolf_> nothing too crazy in the comments, or am I missing something
[00:16:48] <pink_vampire> O_O
[00:44:11] <archivist> sync_, sounds interesting, cant find pics of one on the net
[00:47:26] <pink_vampire> archivist: if I want to make an M code with some G code in it, how I'm doing it?
[00:48:03] <archivist> I dont use remap I use Ocode subroutines
[00:49:55] <pink_vampire> in the mdi commands I have something like that MDI_COMMAND = o<testtest> call
[00:50:18] <pink_vampire> and I have a file name testtest.ngc in the nc folder.
[00:50:31] <pink_vampire> this is o code?
[00:51:11] <pink_vampire> archivist: ^?
[00:51:54] <archivist> not exactly no
[00:52:34] <archivist> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/o-code.html
[00:54:20] <pink_vampire> lets say I want to make a code that run this line G53 g0 X100 Y75 Z0
[00:54:48] <pink_vampire> I need to just make it like that
[00:54:57] <pink_vampire> o100 sub
[00:55:03] <pink_vampire> G53 g0 X100 Y75 Z0
[00:55:08] <pink_vampire> o100 endsub
[00:55:22] <pink_vampire> and save it as o100.ngc?
[00:55:36] <pink_vampire> archivist: ^
[00:56:30] <archivist> try stuff dont keep asking us if its ok
[00:57:23] <pink_vampire> I tried.. but I want to know If it's correct.
[00:57:47] <pink_vampire> I run today G28 and almost brake the screen.
[00:58:49] <pink_vampire> I just trying to understand how it is need to be saved.
[01:00:50] <pink_vampire> in the "6. Calling Files" section. i see the same thing that I'm using in the mdi.
[01:00:59] <pink_vampire> o<myfile> call
[01:01:27] <pink_vampire> so i i want the O code to be 100 i need to change it to 100?
[01:05:35] <archivist> people in the channel are not mind readers, you are making choices, and defining correctness
[01:06:50] <pink_vampire> i did a file
[01:06:58] <pink_vampire> I'm try to play with it.
[01:09:05] <pink_vampire> o110 call give me error
[01:09:44] <pink_vampire> do i need to save the file as o110? o110.ngc? 110? 110.ngc?
[01:09:48] <pink_vampire> archivist:
[01:10:36] <archivist> I have never saved separate ocode routines, never needed it
[01:11:35] <pink_vampire> I want to implement macro codes in the G code.
[01:11:56] <archivist> you dont seem to be reading the manual
[01:12:48] <pink_vampire> the manual say "Numbered File Example" o123 call
[01:13:11] <pink_vampire> i did that, with a file call o110.ngc
[01:13:14] <pink_vampire> nothing.
[01:13:35] <pink_vampire> 110.ngc also nothing..
[01:14:39] <pink_vampire> the first line in the code is o<o110> sub and the last line is o<o110> end sub
[01:14:46] <pink_vampire> endsub*
[01:14:49] <Wolf_> archivist: I’m about to head off to sleep, but before that, you don’t happen to know anything about TRIMOS VERTICAL TVD height gage by chance?
[01:15:14] <archivist> the brackets <> matter
[01:15:38] <archivist> Wolf_, only if I google for one :)
[01:15:54] <Wolf_> yeah, that didn’t find me much info
[01:16:15] <pink_vampire> to remove the <> from the code?
[01:16:16] <Wolf_> some pics of them and some vids, mostly from auction lots…
[01:17:23] <archivist> Wolf_, still on sale in the UK from Bowers
[01:17:35] <pink_vampire> o110 sub
[01:17:35] <Wolf_> this one is older
[01:17:38] <pink_vampire> g0 x10
[01:17:40] <pink_vampire> o110 endsub
[01:17:44] <archivist> pink_vampire, the <> mean in a file!
[01:18:04] <pink_vampire> I took them off of the file.
[01:18:28] <pink_vampire> and I'm trying o110 call in the mdi
[01:20:17] <archivist> you use the <> in mdi not the file name
[01:20:56] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/9pVS7Tl.png
[01:21:00] <pink_vampire> this is the error
[01:21:23] <pink_vampire> in the mdi i just type o110 call, like the manual say.
[01:21:37] <pink_vampire> Numbered File Example o123 call
[01:21:37] <archivist> Wolf_, almost a home brew design there, a scale an tarduino and 3 legs a force gauge and a bit of code
[01:22:11] <archivist> pink_vampire, the manual has <> in the call to an external file
[01:22:50] <Wolf_> manual could use clear syntax examples for some things…
[01:23:22] <Wolf_> archivist: https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/comly-auctioneers/catalogue-id-bscco10091/lot-c209d4a9-f438-4a2a-9ec6-a70400ed83ad I see something that looks like a probe head lol
[01:23:27] <archivist> it is a clear terrible syntax due to the parser design
[01:23:41] <Wolf_> lol
[01:23:59] <pink_vampire> so with out the <> is only for internal calling??
[01:24:05] <pink_vampire> without*
[01:26:23] <archivist> Wolf_, did you win it then?
[01:27:11] <Wolf_> yeah, 3 surface plates, 3 gage block sets (each missing 1-2 blocks..) and that thing
[01:27:59] <archivist> if dead, add a tarduino to read the scale
[01:28:00] <pink_vampire> I've add the <> to the file and I send o<o110> call in the mdi and it work.
[01:29:01] <pink_vampire> so where is this syntax is use? "o123 call"
[01:29:02] <Wolf_> archivist: that sounds like a interesting project to tackle with low coding skills lol
[01:29:38] <archivist> pink_vampire, inside one gcode file
[01:30:20] <pink_vampire> so only inside a file it can work without the <>?
[01:31:12] <pink_vampire> but the manual say "Numbered File"... I'm so confuse.
[01:32:05] <pink_vampire> maybe I need to cange the o110.ngc to just 110.ngc? or maybe without even the ngc just 110??
[01:32:11] <pink_vampire> change*
[01:34:35] <Wolf_> I’m out, will play with that project when its on the desk =)
[01:35:02] <pink_vampire> Wolf_: GOOD LUCK with it! sounds fun!
[01:35:58] <Wolf_> arguino idea is neat, could add a nema 17 stepper to it and make it a poor mans CMM lol
[01:36:23] <pink_vampire> is there a limit to the number of lines with o calls that I can put in the mdi in the ini file?
[01:36:55] <pink_vampire> Wolf_: my cnc is a poor woman cmm
[01:37:42] <Wolf_> =)
[01:38:16] <pink_vampire> how to I add misc axis?
[01:39:03] <pink_vampire> like a mist axis servo.
[01:40:00] <archivist> there is no misc, make choices
[01:41:11] <pink_vampire> I know I have 9 or 21 axis?
[01:41:17] <pink_vampire> some thing like that?
[01:41:43] <archivist> 9
[01:42:11] <pink_vampire> XYZABC are the stuff that run the machine. but I know there is also UVW?
[01:42:16] <pink_vampire> what is the UVW?
[01:42:59] <pink_vampire> can I add a 4th misc axis that will be my U axis?
[01:43:16] <archivist> A or B or C for 4th
[01:43:49] <pink_vampire> I have 3.. so the next motor will be the 4th...
[01:44:29] <pink_vampire> I just need to be able to move it between 2 values
[01:44:37] <pink_vampire> g0 U 30
[01:44:45] <pink_vampire> some thing like that..
[01:45:09] <archivist> you are making choices, not me
[01:45:33] <pink_vampire> I'm asking if linux cnc support it, or the next axis have to be A
[01:46:14] <archivist> ABC are rotary axes by convention
[01:46:36] <archivist> only you know what you are doing
[01:48:03] <pink_vampire> I have 3 axis machin XYZ, how do I setup something like that https://www.tormach.com/store/index.php?app=ecom&ns=catshow&ref=SMARTCOOL&portrelay=1
[01:49:42] <pink_vampire> it is a motor that need to get a number that represent the angle.
[01:50:03] <pink_vampire> but it is not A or B or C axis..
[01:50:11] <pink_vampire> so what axis it will be?
[01:50:13] <pink_vampire> U?
[01:50:32] <pink_vampire> archivist: ^
[01:51:05] <archivist> you decide, it could be classic ladder/hal or remap
[01:52:42] <archivist> process is called "design decisions" whre you decide to use code or hardware or whatever to control something
[01:53:39] <archivist> I would say that item is not an axis in the true form
[01:54:40] <pink_vampire> what do you mean by item?
[01:54:49] <archivist> the mister
[01:55:13] <archivist> so dont treat it like an axis
[01:55:19] <pink_vampire> the whole idea is the mist will be point to the end of the tool by the cnc controller.
[01:56:04] <pink_vampire> so how to I set it up like an item?
[02:15:37] <Deejay> moin
[02:31:06] <IchGucksLive> Morning from Germany
[02:31:16] <IchGucksLive> out of a -11deg C night
[02:31:34] <IchGucksLive> last Education DAY here in Craftsman School
[02:31:58] <IchGucksLive> Tomorrow a Big Event DAY of open DOORS with all 40 CNC Running i Holp
[02:33:33] <IchGucksLive> pink_vampire: you are building the Hell of a mashine
[02:33:59] <IchGucksLive> ;-)
[02:34:36] <IchGucksLive> now will bring some good news and more badnews to the Students
[04:27:39] <MacGalempsy> morning
[04:38:36] <MacGalempsy> https://vimeo.com/152764616
[05:39:36] <jthornton> morning
[05:48:52] <XXCoder> hey jthornton
[05:55:04] <jthornton> hows the new car doing?
[05:55:23] <XXCoder> doing great so far, 3 months?
[05:55:48] <XXCoder> getting usual grimy stuff from anti-ice :P
[05:56:00] <XXCoder> late winter is always so dirty
[05:57:14] <jthornton> yea my truck is called rusty now from the salt
[05:57:46] <XXCoder> here dont use saklt
[05:58:11] <jthornton> I don't know what they use here
[06:24:26] <jthornton> 20 more itch bats to put up
[06:24:37] <jthornton> I'll be so glad when that job it done
[06:24:50] <XXCoder> what exactly is itch bat anyway
[06:25:09] <jthornton> batts of insulation
[06:25:50] <XXCoder> ahh yeah roof isulation
[06:35:44] <jthornton> http://www.modot.org/newsandinfo/District0News.shtml?action=displaySSI&newsId=46299
[06:35:55] <jthornton> they use beet juice with salt
[06:37:27] <XXCoder> fancy
[06:37:35] <XXCoder> brown of shit roads too heh
[08:57:38] <MacGalempsy> morning again :)
[08:58:17] <archivist> not now!
[08:58:42] <jymmm> US Dime, uSD card, tubular tilt sensor to be "mounted" on that BT module, plus battery (not shown) http://imgur.com/3hajy2z
[08:59:14] <OSR_Dragon> it's morning?? must need more coffee
[09:00:04] <MacGalempsy> archivist: i tried you earlier at 2am my time when the neighbor's dog was howling and woke me up.
[09:00:31] <archivist> that was 9:55
[09:01:12] <MacGalempsy> see there u go :) there is no pleasing you
[09:01:32] <jymmm> you two sound married
[09:02:00] <archivist> trained as a clockmaker, it has to be right :)
[09:02:14] <OSR_Dragon> does anyone know if AMC digiflex drives are compatible with linuxcnc?
[09:03:11] <MacGalempsy> married? lol
[09:03:55] <MacGalempsy> OSR_Dragon do you have a datasheet on them?
[09:04:31] <jymmm> MacGalempsy: Did you see what I get to attempt to do?
[09:04:49] <OSR_Dragon> sry, no. just wondering if I should have them on my posibilities list while searching for drives
[09:04:54] <MacGalempsy> that image there?
[09:05:20] <jymmm> MacGalempsy: yep
[09:05:48] <MacGalempsy> jymmm dang how are you going to solder that?
[09:06:44] <jymmm> MacGalempsy: EXCELLENT question, nfc, probably 30ga wirewrap wire I'm guessing.
[09:07:49] <MacGalempsy> did you ask in ##electronics for any input on an approach?
[09:08:05] <jymmm> Not yet, just took photo =)
[09:09:17] <archivist> get a more appropriate tilt sensor
[09:09:21] <MacGalempsy> what kind of range does that bt have?
[09:09:47] <jymmm> archivist: IF you can find one smaller, please let me know
[09:10:26] <archivist> jymmm, one of the sensors used in phones
[09:10:31] <jymmm> MacGalempsy: Depends on pwr setting
[09:10:59] <jymmm> archivist: accelermetr draw way too much power
[09:11:37] <archivist> use/power up only occasionally
[09:11:58] <MacGalempsy> jymmm what kind of project are you making?
[09:12:29] <jymmm> This is all being powered by a CR1220 battery and being mount on on the back of a 90 gram Cockatiel
[09:12:49] <SpeedEvil> Accellerometers exist that use very small numbers of microamps and interrupt on move
[09:13:30] <jymmm> Total weight: 0.496 grams.
[09:13:36] <jymmm> including battery
[09:14:51] <MacGalempsy> cool
[09:15:19] <jymmm> MacGalempsy: Have a rescue bird with arthritis that falls on his back and can't get up, so need to FlipTheBird.
[09:15:32] <MacGalempsy> lol.
[09:16:14] <MacGalempsy> is this like an emergency alert button or is there going to be a flipper?
[09:17:15] <MacGalempsy> i suppose a d1 mini is too big?
[09:17:16] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail/en/stmicroelectronics/LSM6DS3TR/497-15383-1-ND/5180534 - as an example - wakes up on accel and uses 26uA
[09:17:18] <jymmm> The tilt sensor will trigger the bt, which will sound an alarm
[09:18:21] <archivist> accel is better as will detect fall not just tilt
[09:18:43] <SpeedEvil> the above can also do gyro
[09:19:28] <archivist> the weight of the crap wont help its arthritis
[09:19:48] <SpeedEvil> Leetle balloon tied to its back.
[09:21:10] <archivist> bring it to the supervet in the uk get it fixed
[09:22:14] <SpeedEvil> Teach it to fly a quadcopter.
[09:22:23] <jdh> are they covered by national health?
[09:23:30] <MacGalempsy> have a rc flipper locate the ping and flip
[09:24:42] <archivist> jdh no you have to buy pet insurance
[09:24:54] <MacGalempsy> triangulated thru 3 antennas in the cage
[09:30:58] <njh> Is anyone able to help with this?
[09:30:58] <njh> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/issues/225
[09:31:15] <njh> Who are the main Github admins?
[09:42:37] <IchGucksLive> hi
[09:42:53] <IchGucksLive> its getting above ZERO today
[09:43:01] <IchGucksLive> first since 26 days
[09:45:47] <gregcnc> osr_dragon, AMC digiflex come in different flavors of network comms, but support analog input, expensive if you don't need the features
[09:47:04] <OSR_Dragon> gregcnc: thanks, at least I know that if I see some for cheap they will work
[09:47:46] <gregcnc> They have docs on the site so be sure to read before buying
[09:49:53] <gregcnc> bought a small Noga arm with the mag base, it's nice and the base is half the size of the old crap and stronger
[10:03:57] <IchGucksLive> timm later
[10:18:58] <yasnak> any solidworks guys here?
[10:19:06] <yasnak> solidworks administrator rather?
[11:03:42] <saldot> Has anyone tried connecting a 7I34 or 7I44 doughtercard to a 7I76E and run a VFD using modbus/RS485 in LinuxCNC?
[11:10:53] <jthornton> yasnak: just ask your question
[11:20:47] <yasnak> nevermind, var came through finally. the 12.1gb full sp1 2017 has taken five hours and still isn't complete. finally got a dropbox with the zip.
[11:24:44] <JT-Shop-2> MacGalempsy: put it up on http://paste.ubuntu.com/ and give me the link
[11:42:10] <MacGalempsy_> JT-Shop-2: I posted it in the forum thread. https://forum.linuxcnc.org/25-classicladder/32099-benchman-xt-20-tool-atc#86754
[11:51:01] <JT-Shop-2> that will work too
[11:53:08] <JT-Shop-2> 2 needs another check otherwise when you power up and the encoder is 0 it will make that rung true unless that is ok
[11:54:51] <JT-Shop-2> I wouldn't start a tool change if the air is low or allow the machine to be in run mode without air pressure
[11:58:26] <JT-Shop-2> I need to get you an example of sequencing with steps
[12:01:42] <MacGalempsy_> ok. thanks for that info. I will take another look at rung 2 and perhaps just set up a generic alarm for the low-air outside classic ladder
[12:05:16] <CaptHindsight> I used math to find out what size parts to get and they all fit. :)
[12:05:40] <Tom_itx> imagine that
[12:06:11] <CaptHindsight> Math appears to be a good thing
[12:06:44] <Tom_itx> not understood by all
[12:07:11] <CaptHindsight> might be the fault of the teachers
[12:07:40] <CaptHindsight> math is pretty straightforward
[12:07:50] <JT-Shop-2> MacGalempsy_: I replied to the thread take a look
[12:07:53] <CaptHindsight> can be a bit abstract at times
[12:08:45] <MacGalempsy_> working on this http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-a-very-good-beef-stew-cooking-lessons-from-the-kitchn-184050
[12:08:58] <MacGalempsy_> you guys coming over for dinner?
[12:09:18] <CaptHindsight> I put a meatloaf in the oven a half hour ago
[12:10:09] * JT-Shop-2 has pretty much stopped bleeding so back to work
[12:10:12] <Tom_itx> stew is better the 2nd day
[12:10:28] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop-2, did you run out or just plug the hole?
[12:10:36] <JT-Shop-2> not sure
[12:10:53] <JT-Shop-2> I must still have some I'm not dead
[12:11:15] <JT-Shop-2> MacGalempsy_: let me know if my example makes sense
[12:23:03] <CaptHindsight> I was going to machine pistons and sleeves for some SLS printers until I saw how low cost big block parts cost now
[12:23:55] <CaptHindsight> 4.5" dia pistons NOS for $15ea
[12:24:05] <MacGalempsy_> JT-Shop-2: I see the first example is the latching example. I had that in mind when doing the logic, hence the sub-subsections that mention the unlatch criteria. After I get the last of this meal prepped, I will make the logic edits, then move towards making graphical presentation of the ladder
[12:24:12] <CaptHindsight> matching 12" sleeves for $25
[12:29:44] <JT-Shop-2> a simple latching rung is fine for lots of stuff but for something that has to happen in a sequence use the example I just posted
[12:30:07] <JT-Shop-2> what you will run into is rungs going true when you don't what to be true
[12:33:33] <IchGucksLive> hi
[12:36:21] <CaptHindsight> Wie geht's?
[12:37:27] <CaptHindsight> is that still commonly used or only if I go back to 40's Germany?
[12:47:00] <lunada> hi
[12:47:21] <MacGalempsy_> JT-Shop-2: working thru logic, that was something I was trying to make sure wouldn't happen.
[12:48:22] <JT-Shop-2> using step next step trigger is bullet proof
[12:48:27] <MacGalempsy_> CaptHindsight: got any examples of the output from one of your sls printers?
[12:48:30] <JT-Shop-2> and easier to read
[12:49:11] <lunada> is there anything that i may not be seeing that would trigger the toolchange complete pin in the middle of my toolchange cycle? i'm controling my toolchanger with classicladder. whatever's triggering the pin seems to be outside of classicladder
[12:50:11] <IchGucksLive> lunada: when does it trigger
[12:51:00] <JT-Shop-2> lunada: have you looked at my classicladder toolchanger example?
[12:51:35] <lunada> midway though the toolchange. the spindle orients, the magazine moves forward, and as soon as it is supposed to release the tool and lower the magazine, it just retracts the magazine and ends the toolchange.
[12:52:06] <JT-Shop-2> sounds like malformed ladder
[12:52:32] <lunada> jt-shop, i have not as far as i know.
[12:56:16] <lunada> i just cant figure out why it would be triggering the toolchange complete pin.... i dont even have a toolchange complete output coil in there at the moment (for diagnosis purposes)
[12:56:23] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy_: what do you want to see?
[12:57:05] <CaptHindsight> the CO2 versions have ~100um res at best
[13:00:48] <CaptHindsight> more madness: Small teams of programmers with little more than demoware have been bought for as much as a billion dollars.
[13:00:50] <JT-Shop-2> lunada: prob in your hal file then
[13:01:09] <JT-Shop-2> lunada: did you see my classicladder turret example?
[13:01:14] <CaptHindsight> Cruise Automation, a 40-person firm, was purchased by General Motors in July 2016 for nearly $1 billion. In August 2016, Uber acquired Otto, another self-driving startup that had been founded only seven months earlier, in a deal worth more than $680 million,"
[13:01:44] <CaptHindsight> Linuxcnc autopilot
[13:02:20] <MacGalempsy_> CaptHindsight: Show me the most complex part you have made .
[13:03:04] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy_: my stuff is under NDA, I'd have to pick some file off the net and print something
[13:03:55] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy_: complex in what way? The powder supports itself
[13:04:35] <MacGalempsy_> So you are printing plastic or metal?
[13:05:16] <MacGalempsy_> how about something like this? http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1359035
[13:05:56] <MacGalempsy_> you needing an apprentice?
[13:06:05] <lunada> jt-shop i am looking for your example... is it on the wiki?
[13:06:42] <lunada> found it
[13:06:56] <lunada> thanks, i will compare it to mine and see where i screwed up
[13:08:13] <JT-Shop> on my web site
[13:09:11] <JT-Shop-2> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/examples/cl-turret.zip
[13:31:24] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy_: someone should take that file and add a bunch of random parts to the inside that don't fit through the opening
[13:31:31] <CaptHindsight> like a ship in a bottle
[13:33:11] <MacGalempsy_> like a yoda?
[13:33:21] <MacGalempsy_> haha. classic reprap
[13:33:24] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy_: the only difference between the printers would be the power levels at the focus and the wavelengths used
[13:33:48] <CaptHindsight> either print in an inert atmosphere
[13:33:59] <CaptHindsight> argon or nitrogen flood
[13:35:00] <CaptHindsight> you can even vary the composition of the plastics or alloys on each layer
[13:35:44] <CaptHindsight> and if you get extra fancy you can deposite powders with a nozzle and have varying alloys or plastics over the XY as well
[13:36:33] <IchGucksLive> Gn8
[13:41:51] <chopper79> Hello all!......... I am working on geting my 7i76e working. I have lcnc installed, but need the preemt rt version. Can I use terminal to grab it?
[13:43:23] <pcw_mesa> uname -a
[13:43:25] <pcw_mesa> should get you the kernel version
[13:45:23] <chopper79> shows... 3.4.9-rtai-686-pae #1 smp preempt Debian 3.4.55 linuxcnc i686 gnu/linux
[13:45:35] * MacGalempsy_ is going to try to get some sleep before the neighbor's dog starts howling...
[13:46:20] <pcw_mesa> Yeah so that's not a Preempt-RT kernel
[13:46:47] <chopper79> Ok so I need to install debian and then go through the build doc
[13:46:48] <pcw_mesa> you need Preempt-RT for our Ethernet cards
[13:47:43] <chopper79> I looked on debians site and I can not find the download for wheezy 7. I can only find wheezy 8
[13:48:58] <chopper79> I seen somewhere that 8 will not work and it has to be 7
[13:59:00] <JT-Shop-2> chopper79: the LinuxCNC documents is always the best place to look for info http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.html
[13:59:30] <JT-Shop-2> if you don't want to roll your own uspace https://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=68&product_id=72
[13:59:59] <chopper79> I looked through that and found the link. version 7 was buried in debian website so Iwas not able to find it at all.
[14:00:29] <chopper79> Found the archived versions so I will see what happens
[14:02:23] <chopper79> https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/debian-installer/
[14:02:27] <chopper79> Which one?
[14:05:02] <roycroft> chopper79: you are slightly confused
[14:05:07] <roycroft> debian 7 is debian wheezy
[14:05:12] <roycroft> debian 8 is debian jessie
[14:05:19] <roycroft> jessie rt does not work with linuxcnc
[14:05:21] <chopper79> I know
[14:05:32] <chopper79> thats why I am looking for 7 on debians site.
[14:05:42] <roycroft> i was going by this:
[14:05:47] <roycroft> <chopper79> I looked on debians site and I can not find the download for
[14:05:48] <roycroft> +wheezy 7. I can only find wheezy 8
[14:05:58] <roycroft> just making sure you know that 8 is jessie
[14:06:08] <roycroft> 7.x should work fine
[14:06:19] <chopper79> Shows multipk cd#'s
[14:06:22] <roycroft> go to the installer link above
[14:06:23] <chopper79> multiple
[14:06:28] <chopper79> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/7.11.0/i386/iso-cd/
[14:06:29] <pcw_mesa> Jessie is fine with Preempt-RT (I think there are issues with RTAI)
[14:06:31] <roycroft> it's best to use the netinst image
[14:06:46] <roycroft> choose the installer iso for your platform
[14:06:55] <pcw_mesa> but the issue for Ethernet is not the dist, but the kernel
[14:07:58] <roycroft> assuming you have a reasonable internet connection
[14:08:00] <roycroft> debian-7.11.0-i386-netinst.iso.torrent
[14:08:03] <roycroft> is what i would recommend
[14:08:12] <pcw_mesa> if you have line LinuxCNC live CD start here http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/getting-started/getting-linuxcnc.html#_installing_on_debian_wheezy_with_preempt_rt_kernel
[14:08:25] <roycroft> the live cd is the easiest way to go
[14:08:31] <roycroft> unfortunately it does not have full xfs support
[14:08:32] <chopper79> my internet connection is 1.3mb...haha
[14:08:36] <roycroft> which is why i did my own debian install
[14:08:39] <chopper79> gonna be a long download
[14:08:46] <roycroft> not really
[14:08:57] <roycroft> the nice thing about netinst is that it doesn't download everything
[14:09:01] <roycroft> only what you need
[14:09:12] <roycroft> it's going to be faster than doing a full cd or dvd download
[14:09:19] <chopper79> 45min downlod left
[14:09:46] <pcw_mesa> If you already have the live CD installed just use the getting started guide above no need to re-install linux
[14:10:19] <roycroft> pcw_mesa: do you know what, specifically, the issue is with jessie?
[14:10:24] <roycroft> i'd much rather run on jessie
[14:10:38] <roycroft> and i'm not at a point of a full install yet - i'm happy to scrap and reinstall
[14:10:52] <chopper79> Same here
[14:10:56] <roycroft> jessie + preempt-rt is fine?
[14:11:08] <pcw_mesa> Its an issue with RTAI not Preempt-RT
[14:11:36] <pcw_mesa> Mint is also fine with Preempt-RT
[14:11:56] <roycroft> odd that the install docs don't discuss this
[14:12:00] <chopper79> So what happens if once I get lcnc how I want and recompile to create my own version? Will jessie be an issue then?
[14:12:06] <roycroft> all they say is you can use jessie in simulation mode only
[14:12:35] <roycroft> i'm not saying that to dispute what you're saying, pcw_mesa - i trust you are correct
[14:12:45] <roycroft> i'm saying it's odd for the distro docs to not have been updated
[14:12:52] <pcw_mesa> Ive run it, no problems
[14:13:05] <roycroft> i've spoken with several folks who are disappointed that jessie is not supported for rt operations
[14:13:21] <roycroft> i might give it another go this weekend then
[14:13:38] <pcw_mesa> (well other than being Debian so you die the death of a thousand paper cuts)
[14:13:44] <roycroft> especially since i'm having problems with some of the wheezy stuff
[14:13:51] <roycroft> debian doesn't bother me too much
[14:14:02] <roycroft> it's the least heinous of the linux distros that i've used :)
[14:14:22] <pcw_mesa> its just that so much stuff is broken out of the box
[14:14:23] <roycroft> <-- is an old-school bsd guy who is just warming up to linux
[14:15:06] <pcw_mesa> I understand why its necessary for the LinuxCNC distribution
[14:15:25] <pcw_mesa> but I like Mint a lot better to actually use
[14:15:29] <roycroft> as in, i was using 7th edition at school in 1978 when bill joy flew in and installed his vm code and vi on a vax, and then i was using 1bsd
[14:15:41] <roycroft> i've never used mint
[14:16:05] <roycroft> i got bored playing with operating systems years and years ago
[14:16:19] <roycroft> but if mint works a lot better i might give that a go
[14:16:45] <chopper79> pcw.... My goal is to get lcnc working with the ethernet boards and then create my own version for my product. When I make a new pc for a machien I want to be able to load and go. Should I base it off of wheezy, jessie, precise, mint?
[14:16:59] <CaptHindsight> ponder BSDCNC
[14:17:19] <roycroft> chopper79: install all of them in virtual machines and decide for yourself
[14:17:38] <roycroft> the only bsd that's decent these days is openbsd
[14:17:51] <CaptHindsight> openBSDCNC
[14:17:51] <roycroft> and theo would have no interest at all in rt
[14:17:55] <pcw_mesa> If you have newer hardware, Preempt-RT is definitely the way to go
[14:18:02] <roycroft> he'd rather have it secure than have it work
[14:18:27] <roycroft> it's one of the main reasons i started using debian on our server farm
[14:18:40] <roycroft> nobody wants to port to bsd any more because it's so much hassle
[14:19:13] <CaptHindsight> took months to get Linux a bit more secure
[14:19:17] <pcw_mesa> I think someone added patches recently that allow LinuxCNC to run on FreeBSD (probably simulation only)
[14:19:39] <roycroft> i was trying to add the sid repository to wheezy last night so i could install the touchscreen probe package
[14:19:51] <roycroft> apt kept failing to install it
[14:19:59] <roycroft> checksum errors from the repository
[14:20:04] <CaptHindsight> how many cnc machines are hooked up to the internet?
[14:20:13] <roycroft> the correct answer is "zero"
[14:20:20] <roycroft> but i'm sure people are doing a lot of incorrect things
[14:20:47] <CaptHindsight> my most concerned about security customers never connect to any network
[14:21:08] <roycroft> i'll have my linuxcnc machines connected to my local network
[14:21:22] <roycroft> but they will have no gateway to the outside world
[14:22:01] <chopper79> so real quick.... why the push to debian? is it due to rt issues on new ubunu distros or something?
[14:22:11] <CaptHindsight> so they may only be hacked via another machine on the locaL NETWORK :)
[14:22:17] <roycroft> yes
[14:22:19] <Wolf_> but, how do you watch youtube while machining then?
[14:22:25] <Wolf_> :P
[14:22:27] <roycroft> i don't
[14:22:37] <roycroft> but if i wanted to i could use a machine that is connected to the internet for that
[14:22:46] <CaptHindsight> Wolf_: or stream music?
[14:22:51] <roycroft> my linuxcnc machines will be dedicated to running linuxcnc
[14:23:04] <CaptHindsight> machining is very tedious
[14:23:20] <roycroft> i have an ipod for listening to music
[14:23:24] <pcw_mesa> Debian was chosen for LinuxCNC because of licensing issues with Ubuntu/Mint
[14:23:28] <CaptHindsight> lots of repetition
[14:23:34] <CaptHindsight> boooooorrrriiinngg
[14:23:52] <Wolf_> chopper79: you can diy a mint kernel
[14:24:17] <chopper79> I enjoy mint for personal use. Never knew I could use it for lcnc
[14:24:31] <chopper79> I seen above where it was mentioned.
[14:24:33] <JT-Shop-2> yep that's all I use for linuxcnc
[14:24:44] <chopper79> mint?
[14:24:48] <JT-Shop-2> https://mesaus.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=68&product_id=72
[14:24:50] <JT-Shop-2> yep
[14:24:56] <JT-Shop-2> like it much nicer
[14:25:58] <CaptHindsight> I either use the live iso or Gentoo
[14:26:19] <CaptHindsight> what is Mint again? debian fork?
[14:26:53] <chopper79> I will check it out. Like I said I use it for personal use. Took me a year to get over the debian switch. Being OCD about stuff like that is horrible.
[14:26:54] <JT-Shop-2> ubuntu fork
[14:27:12] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop-2: more Ubuntu?
[14:27:37] <roycroft> teh wikipedia article about linux mint gives me serious pause
[14:28:30] <CaptHindsight> says LMDE is based on Debian
[14:28:30] <roycroft> i shall have to do more research before i can consider using it
[14:29:11] <CaptHindsight> LMDE was originally based directly on Debian's Testing branch
[14:29:13] <chopper79> JT-Shop... that is Rosa correct?
[14:32:57] <chopper79> Going to install mint and wheezy. I want to thank you all for the help. I will be on later I am sure as I work through the ethernet setup.
[14:33:06] <JT-Shop-2> I use 17.3 what ever that name is
[14:34:16] <chopper79> The ethernet is new to me so I am sure I will have some hurddles to jump
[14:36:04] <roycroft> at this point i'll proceed with testing jessie with preempt-rt
[14:36:14] <roycroft> since i have a couple dozen servers running jessie already
[14:36:19] <roycroft> and i'll continue to research mint
[14:37:34] <pcw_mesa> chopper79 you could buy that pre-installed Mint/LinuxCNC HD from JT and save a lot of time...
[14:44:37] <roycroft> or download the livecd from linuxcnc.org and install that in minutes
[14:44:49] <roycroft> if you want to be wheezy
[14:45:52] <roycroft> but if you really want to compile your own version for whatever reason you probably do need to do a full os install and roll your own
[14:50:39] <chopper79> Would love to purchase it from him. I have limited days to work on things and I have a 3 day stretch I can use.
[14:50:47] <chopper79> Jt where are you located by the way?
[14:50:59] <JT-Shop-2> swamp east Missouri
[14:51:01] <JT-Shop-2> you?
[14:51:16] <chopper79> ~ peoria il
[14:51:26] <JT-Shop-2> ah right next door
[14:51:50] <chopper79> I go down the stl with the famiy all the time.
[14:51:57] <chopper79> to
[14:52:04] <JT-Shop-2> I'm in Poplar Bluff
[14:52:10] <chopper79> Kiddos like six flags
[14:52:56] * JT-Shop-2 goes back to hanging itch... only 12 itch batts left
[15:04:59] <jdh> confused?
[15:13:46] <Wolf_> diy kernel build only took me 3-4 hours to figure out
[15:14:01] <Wolf_> for Mint
[15:17:30] <Wolf_> thx mcmaster for having Surface plate stand cad drawings availible so I don’t have to do any design work :D
[15:18:43] <Wolf_> $735 for $40 worth of 2” L steel and 4 casters… nope
[15:21:34] <Frank_6> hi:)
[15:24:12] <Nick-Shop> Any ideas of how to improve this scan? https://ibin.co/3AMkdn1WGcZF.png
[15:28:36] <pcw_mesa> Looks like a periodic error in the resolver interface (or mechanics)
[15:30:26] <pcw_mesa> probable needs a voltmeter to analyse
[15:35:23] <Nick-Shop> is there a procedure I can look at?
[15:36:05] <Nick-Shop> I'm also in current mode
[15:38:21] <pcw_mesa> check that the sine and cosine signals from the resolver are equal at their peak positions (you need to rotate the resolver slowly to check this)
[15:39:00] <pcw_mesa> (measured across the +and - pins with a DVM)
[15:40:00] <Nick-Shop> what level ov voltage should I see?
[15:40:13] <Nick-Shop> ov/of
[15:41:18] <pcw_mesa> 0 to 1V max on a 7I49, 0 to 2V max on a 7I49H
[15:41:20] <pcw_mesa> but equal max values for sine and cosine (one will be max when the other is 0)
[15:50:17] <Nick-Shop> am I measuring AC voltage?
[15:53:46] <pcw_mesa> Yes
[15:54:08] <pcw_mesa> _across_ the pins (from SINE+ to SINE-)
[15:54:56] <pcw_mesa> you need to rotate the shaft to fin the min and max positions
[15:55:04] <pcw_mesa> find
[16:01:53] <Nick-Shop> sine 0v cos 1.946v cos 0v sine 1.892v is what i'm getting
[16:02:35] <Nick-Shop> 0.054v difference
[16:03:57] <pcw_mesa> do you have a 7I49 or 7I49H?
[16:04:40] <Nick-Shop> 7149HV on board - for Hardinge resolvers
[16:08:36] <pcw_mesa> .054 is 2.5% or so which is is a bit bothersome but could just be a measurement error
[16:10:12] <Nick-Shop> Chinese DVM - could be
[16:13:02] <pcw_mesa> might try resolver channels 3,4,5 with W2 down just in case the output is really > 2V
[16:13:04] <pcw_mesa> (cheap DVMs may not read 2.5 KHZ AC very accurately)
[16:13:33] <andypugh> Nick-Shop: Maybe this is the time to buy a scope?
[16:15:02] <pcw_mesa> (that is is the input voltage is too high, you will get periodic position errors from the resolver interface at every 90 (electrical) degrees)
[16:15:22] <Nick-Shop> 2235 Textronix OK?
[16:17:02] <andypugh> If you have one, it’s the tool to use
[16:17:21] <andypugh> You can measure peak not RMS
[16:18:02] <andypugh> (Then we need PCW to say if the voltage limit on the 7i49 is peak or RMS)
[16:21:57] <Nick-Shop> resolver is marked 6v input and 12v output so I have a 7i49HV card
[16:22:58] <Deejay> gn8
[16:23:30] <andypugh> I think the 7i49 expects lower output than input.
[16:24:22] <JT-Shop-2> I ordered one of those for someone but they never purchased it :(
[16:24:39] <JT-Shop-2> 190 itch batts up, 10 to go
[16:25:22] <andypugh> Hmm, I just found a forum post where some chap called PCW says that the 7i49HV is happy wit 1:2 resolvers.
[16:26:41] <Nick-Shop> I got mine from mesa on west coast. There was another user (SSI) that got the regular 7i49 and had to get the HV to run correctly. Him and I have the same resolvers.
[16:27:28] <Nick-Shop> Jt - wasn't me :-)
[16:28:01] <andypugh> (Complete digression, fascinating old film on Youtube of hand-making huge chains and many-ton anchors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_LA_R4ifYk
[16:28:32] <Nick-Shop> But hang on to it -when I get this one running, I have another one to do
[16:30:53] <andypugh> The shot of the men in the proof shop tapping each link with a toffee hammer to see if it is sound reminds me of “Grand Budapest Hotel” but that will only make sense if you have seen the film. (Which, incidentally, brilliant. Especially if you have ever stayed in a “faded glory” hotel. The set-dressing for a grand 18th century hotel with a 1960s refit set in the 1970s is just brilliant)
[16:34:44] <Nick-Shop> <andypugh> can I hook the scope to the sin and cos and see them both at the same time?
[16:35:49] <andypugh> If it’s a 2-channel scope, then that’s exactly what you should do
[16:36:42] <andypugh> (even with a common GND at the scope the resolver won’t care. The 7i49 might get confused)
[16:38:08] <Nick-Shop> it has 2 channels - only ever need 1 - last time was to check out a Pico resolver to encoder card
[16:38:37] <JT-Shop-2> Nick-Shop: I know it wasn't you :)
[16:39:14] <XXCoder> shh it was me
[16:39:17] <Nick-Shop> good - one less person to be mad at me --
[16:39:34] <JT-Shop-2> lol
[16:39:36] <XXCoder> hey nick im mad at you because i has no reason to be mad at you
[16:39:59] <JT-Shop-2> XXCoder: 192 itch batts up, 8 to go
[16:40:21] <XXCoder> awesome, just remember to soak yourself for while, then drain water then bathe in fresh water
[16:40:28] <Nick-Shop> then I'm safe hiding behind my computer
[16:40:43] <XXCoder> lol
[16:43:48] <XXCoder> jt I check spindle fit, it works fine :)
[16:48:24] <JT-Shop-2> cool, you fire it up yet?
[16:48:43] <Nick-Shop> <andypugh> to hook scope up channel probe-1end to each side of sine leads - is polarity an issue being an ac signal?
[16:49:01] <andypugh> I don’t think so
[16:50:32] <XXCoder> not yet im unsure on what wires to use to connect power for spindle\
[16:51:46] <Nick-Shop> Making up leads to run out from 7i49 to safely hook scope to
[16:54:39] <andypugh> You don’t need to be too worried about the outputs, they have a very limited energy coupling, from a very low energy input.
[16:57:20] <Nick-Shop> actually - do the sin & cos leads have to connected to the 7i49 to do this test as long as as the primary is getting voltage? Running leads out just to be able to hook up all 4 leads
[16:57:56] <andypugh> No, you can disconnect the outputs
[16:58:30] <FloppyDisk525> man there were a lot hammers swinging in that chain and anchor video
[16:58:56] <andypugh> It’s like a dangerous, dirty, ballet
[16:59:33] * JT-Shop-2 takes resolver notes
[16:59:36] <FloppyDisk525> You'd be tired after a day of doing that, makes me think twice the next time I want to complain.
[17:00:46] <JT-Shop-2> I was going to say something about back then men were men and sheep were scared but don't want to offend any sheep that might be watching
[17:02:26] <Nick-Shop> that makes it easier to test if I just disconnect them from the card - lets see if I can do this without alot of smoke :-)
[17:06:06] * JT-Shop-2 takes a short break from itch and goes to pack up an order
[17:10:21] <Nick-Shop> dumb question - on volts/div - what is 50m? milli volts?
[17:10:22] <andypugh> This is interesting, modern-day recreation of the anchor in that video sometime recently. Not sure what the TV programme was, but shows that Sheffield Forgemasters can still make big stuff. (I worked with them on a few projects when I was a metallirgist in Sheffield).
[17:10:23] <andypugh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIHyaSV22Bs
[17:10:31] <andypugh> Yes
[17:10:49] <andypugh> 50mV per division on the screen
[17:15:22] <Nick-Shop> thanks for the verification
[17:18:04] <chopper79> Time for some new computer hardware. Servo thread Max interval = 5717307ns, Max jitter = 4722747ns, last interval = 994436ns
[17:18:14] <elmo40> ouch!!
[17:18:29] <andypugh> That’s a bit terrible
[17:18:36] <chopper79> just a bit
[17:18:39] <chopper79> lol
[17:18:41] <andypugh> Could be SMI?
[17:18:55] <andypugh> Intel chipset?
[17:19:21] <chopper79> Not sure... old pc I had laying around. I think I remeber why it was not in use.
[17:19:30] <chopper79> this reminded me
[17:19:36] <andypugh> Old PC makes SMI more likely
[17:19:48] <JT-Shop-2> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?FixingSMIIssues
[17:19:58] <andypugh> Try the command line “latency-test” and see if the big ones are periodic
[17:20:44] <chopper79> one sec
[17:21:02] <andypugh> 64 seconds per “big one” is definitely SMI
[17:21:39] <chopper79> they are low for about 3 secs and then jump up
[17:21:57] <andypugh> Do they drop again?
[17:22:35] <chopper79> no... just stay that level no matter how much I play with the pc
[17:23:54] <chopper79> is there a way to monitor them in terminal in real time to actually see the change? The command you gave me just pops up the test window
[17:24:00] <chopper79> like normal
[17:24:54] <chopper79> well the last interval is running at 994436ns
[17:25:09] <chopper79> it changes +/- 300ns
[17:26:26] <JT-Shop-2> did you look at the fixing smi issues link?
[17:26:44] <Nick-Shop> <andypugh> An I supposed to see a wave of some kind or just a straight line of varying lengths?
[17:27:03] <chopper79> yes, but I will have to sit and really go through it as it will take me a bit to read it
[17:27:12] <andypugh> You should see two waves at 90 degrees
[17:27:24] <JT-Shop-2> when rotating it?
[17:28:23] <andypugh> chopper79: Given that the interval should be 1mS, that’s fine.
[17:28:55] <chopper79> So it is just the spikes?
[17:29:06] <andypugh> Nick-Shop: Are you in XY mode by any chance?
[17:29:35] <andypugh> (Actually. XY would be cool with a resolver, should be a straight line, that changes angle)
[17:31:27] <Nick-Shop> I'll go see if I can find out the mode
[17:31:34] <chopper79> score... I have a cdc-/id2550 brand new in the box and 8gb of ram for it. I need to go through my cabinets more often
[17:35:18] <Nick-Shop> I don't see an XY mode
[17:40:01] * JT-Shop-2 starts moving stuff around to prepare for tomorrow's itch hanging party
[17:54:14] <pink_vampire|4> hi
[17:55:19] <Nick-Shop> <andypugh> Don't know hat I did but with sine & cos hooked up - I have an oval instead of a line or wave - ideas?
[17:55:59] <andypugh> That’s XY mode.
[17:56:15] <andypugh> I think
[17:56:44] <andypugh> What does the oval do when you roatate the resolvulator ?
[18:06:40] <Nick-Shop> rotates around when it goes verticle-it gets real long-off the screen
[18:07:17] <Nick-Shop> how do I get out of the xy mode?
[18:08:43] <MacGalempsy_> i guess no sleep for the wicked...
[18:12:18] <andypugh> Nick-Shop: I have no idea, I have only ever used two scopes, and yours isn’t one of them
[18:14:44] <andypugh> chopper79: Asking around: you can run the test in /usr/realtime*{press tab here}/testsuite/kern/latency/run to get a second-by-second report
[18:15:33] <MacGalempsy_> andypugh: you riding moto this weekend?
[18:15:48] <andypugh> or run latency-plot at the command line to get a graphical plot of your latency, which might let you spot a 64 or 32 second periodicity
[18:15:52] <Nick-Shop> Guess tomorrow I'll have to try to get a manual of this scope. Have to start shutting down - time to take the wife out for dinner- Thanks for the help
[18:16:20] <andypugh> MacGalempsy_: Only if I need to go somewhere. Far too cold and slimy to do it for fun.
[18:17:30] <JT-Shop> MacGalempsy_: did you understand the ladder example
[18:23:48] <andypugh> <discuss> CL is great, but not the current best choice for a toolchanger
[18:30:59] <Nick-Shop> whats the current best choice for a toolchanger
[18:33:08] <MacGalempsy_> JT-Shop: I think so, going to draw for a bit in a sketchbook to come up with a graphical solution
[18:34:37] <MacGalempsy_> the board should be back early this coming week, so it's nose to the proverbial grinding stone to get it figured out
[18:36:37] <BeachBumPete> Hey folks
[18:37:43] <MacGalempsy_> hey BeachBumPete
[18:38:39] <BeachBumPete> Hey mac
[18:38:44] <BeachBumPete> howzitgoin?
[18:39:02] <MacGalempsy_> oh, just got done talking to the police at the front door.
[18:40:06] <MacGalempsy_> trying to deal with a howling dog next door, but could not get the neighbor to answer their door to talk. He went there too and she didnt answer, but she rolled out of the garage while he was still here.
[18:40:09] <BeachBumPete> what did ya do now?
[18:40:28] <BeachBumPete> ah
[18:40:45] <BeachBumPete> I love dogs but some people just should not have them LOL
[18:41:25] <MacGalempsy_> well, its been all week & everynight has been sub-freezing temps. so of course its howling! lol
[18:41:35] <BeachBumPete> I just sold my first Scope riser rail to a fellow in Italy ;)
[18:41:58] <MacGalempsy_> awesome. is shipping more than the scope riser?
[18:42:17] <BeachBumPete> no actually I use USPS Priority mail International
[18:42:28] <BeachBumPete> most of the time it is around the $25.00 mark
[18:42:41] <MacGalempsy_> muy excellente
[18:43:08] <BeachBumPete> Its nice I have sold these things all over the globe LOL
[18:43:39] <MacGalempsy_> do you advertise or is it just word of awesomeness?
[18:43:46] <BeachBumPete> working on the new prototype got the first side machining done last night and proofed the program made adjustments so I can run it again without drama
[18:44:34] <BeachBumPete> I honestly do not advertise just have been in the game as a competitor and building parts for people for almost 20 years now
[18:45:41] <Wolf_> I want a rail for my 22lr…
[18:46:18] <BeachBumPete> hehe
[18:46:20] <MacGalempsy_> sounds like Pete is the guy you want to order from.
[18:46:30] <MacGalempsy_> Pete you got a 10/22 riser?
[18:46:36] <BeachBumPete> I probably should make rails for rimfires they are quite similar to airguns
[18:46:42] <Wolf_> nope, his rail probably cost more then the 22lr that I want it for
[18:46:50] <BeachBumPete> but thus far I do not have any firearms parts
[18:48:26] <BeachBumPete> the rifles I make these parts for are the high end competition guns. Most are quite expensive
[18:48:41] <Wolf_> I know
[18:48:47] <BeachBumPete> they typically hold scopes that range in the thousands of dollars each
[18:49:45] <BeachBumPete> so while my parts are not cheap I think, they are priced accordingly to their market and yeah you can buy a 10/22 for less than my rails cost unfortunately
[18:50:11] <Wolf_> high end rem model 80 (i think) that had 4” of the end of the barrel that was so rusted that I needed to cut it off with a cut off wheel and re-crowned the barrel with a HF step drill lol
[18:53:20] <Wolf_> actually shoots well now, but I hate the narrow airgun/22 dovetails
[18:55:10] <BeachBumPete> sounds like a nice rifle
[18:55:51] <Wolf_> yeah, when I first tried it, it was throwing bullets about 5-6 feet to the right at 25yrs
[18:57:18] <andypugh> I am really conflicted on shooting.
[18:57:41] <Wolf_> I love target shooting and gun smithing
[18:57:47] <BeachBumPete> me too
[18:57:53] <BeachBumPete> I really enjoy precision airguns
[18:58:23] <BeachBumPete> something so satisfying about a highly accurate, yet supremely quiet rifle that is self contained and beautifully made
[18:59:37] <BeachBumPete> I have always kind of wanted to buy a very nice heavy barrel rimfire target rifle to play with as well.
[18:59:41] <malcom2073> So, I've heard people trashing tormach... is there anything in that price range that is actually decent, or is it pretty much that, or $100k vmc?
[19:00:08] <MacGalempsy_> new or used?
[19:00:11] <BeachBumPete> Hey Malclm
[19:00:26] <malcom2073> New
[19:00:28] <malcom2073> Hey Pete
[19:00:28] <BeachBumPete> I am sorry I have not gotten back to you about your part, been very busy with work
[19:00:43] <BeachBumPete> just now sitting down to chat ;)
[19:01:14] <BeachBumPete> we are trying the latest new Greek restaurant takeout tonight. Anyone like Gyros?
[19:01:14] <malcom2073> Haha np, not in a hurry
[19:01:27] <andypugh> I like the mechanics. I used to be a genuinely competive shooter. I was awarded RAF Marksman 2 years after they stopped giving that to cadets because I shot so well with Ye Olde Lee Enfield. But when I went to Unuversity the Gun Club were just sierdos.
[19:02:04] <andypugh> (wierdos)
[19:02:49] <andypugh> malcom2073: On what basis were they trashing Tormach?
[19:02:56] <Wolf_> malcom2073: there was some VMC on auction for 5k-40k yesterday...
[19:03:11] <malcom2073> andypugh: I've never actually gotten any specifics from people on why it's "bad", which is why I'm questioning it
[19:03:19] <malcom2073> Wolf_: I see VMC's for $1500 at random :)
[19:03:51] <Wolf_> yeah, I seem to miss those
[19:04:00] <andypugh> Well, unless the trashers actually own one their opinion has no value
[19:04:11] <Wolf_> BeachBumPete: http://i.imgur.com/JHb0P8M.jpg old school?
[19:04:16] <malcom2073> Of course, but you'll never find anyone who owns one who trashes it :-P
[19:04:30] <malcom2073> i know a guy who owned a 1100, he liked it
[19:04:33] <BeachBumPete> I honestly do not think tormach is that bad... I built a very similar machine in my RF45 CNC using the tormach tooling
[19:04:44] <CaptHindsight> BeachBumPete: gyros, saganaki, souvlaki, Pastitsio
[19:05:05] <BeachBumPete> how is the souvlaki? They sell that there...
[19:05:27] <CaptHindsight> meat on a stick with sauce
[19:06:08] <BeachBumPete> yeah I know but they sell it in a sandwich
[19:06:12] <BeachBumPete> or pita
[19:06:13] <CaptHindsight> Pastitsio is like greek lasagna
[19:06:22] <BeachBumPete> oh yeah is it good?
[19:06:23] <CaptHindsight> yeah with pita bread
[19:08:13] <CaptHindsight> Dolmas, the stuffed grape leaves are also good with the egg lemon sauce
[19:08:23] <andypugh> malcom2073: Yes, but no. People definitely do defend their choices, that is a known fact. But something truly bad will get _some_ people publically regretting their choice. For example I frequently advise against buying a Chinese Lathe/Milll. Because I did, and it was Junk. I have genuinely never heard of a dissapointed Tormach owner.
[19:08:43] <BeachBumPete> http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/an1827f2.jpg
[19:09:40] <Wolf_> I think I have shown off my 22 target pistol here before…
[19:09:45] <BeachBumPete> there are some disappointed tormach owners but they are few and far between. Most that are have experience with more commercial equipment
[19:10:42] <BeachBumPete> http://www.champchoice.com/IMAGES_PRODUCT/009791_XL.JPG This is such a cool gun....
[19:10:50] <andypugh> Quite. They are not DMG. But then they are not DMG price
[19:10:56] <malcom2073> Yeah
[19:11:02] <malcom2073> I have zero experience with commercial equipment haha
[19:11:26] <BeachBumPete> if you have ever watched the Olympic Biathalon comps you can see this rifle a lot. the way the rifle bolt works is quite cool
[19:11:28] <Wolf_> yeah, those straight pull bolt guns are cool
[19:11:35] <andypugh> They are much closer to HAAS than the price would lead you to expect.
[19:12:30] <BeachBumPete> how do you figure that?
[19:13:04] <Wolf_> by the time you add all the features to the tormach to match a HAAS…
[19:13:26] <BeachBumPete> in no way will a Tormach EVER match a HAAS....
[19:13:43] <malcom2073> "match a HAAS" in terms of what? being able to easily produce small runs of parts?
[19:14:12] <BeachBumPete> the Tormach certainly has its place
[19:14:25] <Wolf_> well, I mean like adding the tool changer, coolant, enclosure and all that, the price starts getting close to a HAAS
[19:14:28] <BeachBumPete> it is a well designed little machine that actually can make some decent parts
[19:14:37] <malcom2073> Wolf_: $22k for a fully equipped 1100
[19:14:41] <malcom2073> how much is a HAAS?
[19:15:05] <roycroft> tormach seems very well integrated and easy to assemble and use
[19:15:06] <BeachBumPete> but in no way will it ever compete with a HAAS regardless of what kind of options you buy
[19:15:06] <Wolf_> on par if you look at the production speeds :D
[19:15:29] <roycroft> it's like a luxury mid-range line of machines
[19:15:31] <roycroft> if that makes any sens
[19:15:32] <roycroft> e
[19:15:34] <andypugh> Saw a compilation of Biathalon goofs. One is rather sad. Leading Girl gets to position one, starts shooting. All the rest arrive later, start shooting. They are shooting prone. She is shooting standing, she forgot. Now, had I been Girl2, I think I would have said “Oi, down here”, though maybe let her hit one first
[19:15:51] <malcom2073> That's like saying that a geo metro will never compare to a ferarri. If you want to get from point A to B and not break the bank, I'd say it not only beats it, but it's recommended :-P
[19:16:07] * roycroft is not into biathalons, but does enjoy watching the upper class twit of the year competition
[19:16:16] <Wolf_> lol roycroft
[19:16:41] <BeachBumPete> malcom2073 that is actually a reasonable analogy
[19:16:52] <malcom2073> The minimill starts at $34k
[19:16:57] <Wolf_> really just like everything else, comes down to matching the machine to the projected job/output/production use
[19:17:01] <roycroft> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqObJtGrKaA
[19:17:02] <BeachBumPete> I have run a minimill
[19:17:07] <andypugh> Biathlon is the sport that, just maybe, I could have done. I am pretty fit on skis, and I can shoot.
[19:17:09] <roycroft> in case you're not familiar with that event
[19:18:13] <malcom2073> It looks like the minimill does have more features, even at the base options than the tormach heh
[19:20:02] <BeachBumPete> despite the fact that it is called mini you really cannot compare it to the tormach they are two completely different machines in almost every way.
[19:22:57] <Wolf_> I still want to know where malcom2073 keeps seeing $1500 VMC… lol
[19:23:13] <BeachBumPete> I bought one ;)
[19:23:13] <roycroft> i used to do competitive cycling
[19:23:14] <malcom2073> Wolf_: A matsurra went for $1500 like 4 months ago hehe
[19:23:24] <roycroft> back in another life when i was young and fit
[19:23:41] <MacGalempsy_> malcom2073: you could msg the nycnc guy on fb about his opinion. I think he replies to most msgs. However, it should be noted he just bought a HAAS
[19:24:13] <malcom2073> Hmm, I may do that. I thought he was a tormach sponsored guy
[19:24:19] <roycroft> he likes his tormach gear though
[19:24:26] <roycroft> he does have a haas now
[19:24:32] <roycroft> but he still has all the tormach
[19:24:36] <Wolf_> lol yeah, he has said that they got the HAAS because they wanted the speed for production runs
[19:24:44] <MacGalempsy_> he is tormach sponsored, so you may just ask why he went to HAAS
[19:24:51] <MacGalempsy_> ah. ok
[19:25:17] <Wolf_> and keeping the tormachs for job shop work
[19:25:48] <malcom2073> Makes sense
[19:25:53] <andypugh> The NYCNC guy seems impressed by Tormach, but also has HAAS. But then his HAAS has 4 Orange vices on the bed, it’s a different class of work. I don’t think Tormach are aiming at the series production market.
[19:26:05] <BeachBumPete> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5JxNFmGXBY
[19:26:05] <MacGalempsy_> has anyone else noticed the lack of tooling in his HAAS ATC? heh
[19:26:37] <Wolf_> yeah, he has it loaded with just what they are using in it I think lol
[19:26:47] <BeachBumPete> I have watched that NyCcnc guys videos
[19:26:56] <MacGalempsy_> maybe he is trying to save up for more tool holders.
[19:27:06] <BeachBumPete> keep in mind he came to the tormach a CNC newbie
[19:27:18] <BeachBumPete> he used to have a much smaller machine
[19:27:29] <BeachBumPete> then got the Tormach and was like WOW...
[19:27:33] <MacGalempsy_> that is true. I think that is part of his elure to the normal garage guy
[19:27:35] <BeachBumPete> now he has a HAAS and is like WOW
[19:27:46] <Wolf_> I think he started with a HF mini mill lol
[19:27:51] <malcom2073> Heh
[19:28:03] <BeachBumPete> people that run great Commercial machines run a haas and are like HO HUM
[19:28:11] <andypugh> Quite.
[19:28:25] <BeachBumPete> no he started with a sherline or taig or something
[19:28:34] <Wolf_> oh right,
[19:28:54] <MacGalempsy_> he is also Fusion360 sponsored, too
[19:29:02] <BeachBumPete> I have run a HAAS Minimill and it is a very nice machine.
[19:29:11] <BeachBumPete> how come I can't get sponsored?????
[19:29:17] <malcom2073> Haha
[19:29:23] <malcom2073> You're just not popular enough
[19:29:23] <BeachBumPete> I am a garage shop guy with a good personality too
[19:29:39] <BeachBumPete> I need to get me a damn gopro and have at it
[19:29:41] <Wolf_> put out 2-3 vids per week on youtube and get a good viewer base going
[19:29:47] <andypugh> Tormach seem to be actively trying for the middle ground. Very serious amateurs, low-budget pros. It’s a not-inconsiderable market.
[19:29:59] <BeachBumPete> I agree
[19:30:08] <BeachBumPete> they have positioned their machine quite intelligently
[19:30:18] <BeachBumPete> it is a stepping stone machine
[19:30:20] <MacGalempsy_> 1) get a shirt with your name on it, 2) start every video with Hey Folks, and refer to everyone as Folks, 3) make cool stuff
[19:30:26] <BeachBumPete> allowing people to start production and prototyping
[19:30:39] <BeachBumPete> and get their feet wet
[19:31:03] <BeachBumPete> without having to take the huge plunge into commerical equipment and run it on single phase in the garage
[19:31:28] <BeachBumPete> and they have designed their machine to run very well despite its chinese origins
[19:31:30] <Wolf_> too bad most of us here would rather buy a older crusty thing, gut the controls and run it instead of a tormach lol
[19:31:40] <BeachBumPete> I did precisely that
[19:31:56] <BeachBumPete> but before that I built a nice RF45 CNC machine
[19:32:12] <BeachBumPete> that was quite similar to a tormach machine in capability and capacity
[19:32:21] <MacGalempsy_> I think a great way to get a lot of subscribers would be to make a tutorial video on every single linuxcnc real-time component, and a second video that walks thru its application so that noobs can understand it.
[19:32:23] <BeachBumPete> I used it to make parts and whatnot
[19:32:45] <malcom2073> I've done that... but I may have a job coming up that justifies buying an actual machine
[19:32:45] <Wolf_> yeah, same thing I’m going to end up doing with the x2 I’m building, use it for small things or making parts for the other machines
[19:32:50] <malcom2073> but may not be able ot justify a *real* machine
[19:33:08] <MacGalempsy_> then set up a bot in here that links to the video when someone types the component name and a "?"
[19:34:02] <andypugh> MacGalempsy_: It’s not the T-shirt, You have to start with “Ho folks, my name is Keith/Ave/Whatever”
[19:34:34] <MacGalempsy_> no, not a t-shirt, a button up with the name on it helps build repore
[19:34:47] <Wolf_> if you go with AVE, don’t forget to yell “focus you fuck” at the camera once in a while
[19:35:05] <malcom2073> You gotta make up your own quirk
[19:35:22] <andypugh> I have a Yourube channel. I even have subscribers,
[19:35:29] <malcom2073> I have like two subscribers!
[19:35:31] <MacGalempsy_> I like how the PLCProfessor takes a break after a bunch of info, then the ad comes one
[19:35:37] <BeachBumPete> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/67417-cnc.html This is the thread I had on CNCZONE about my RF45 CNC build
[19:35:57] <MacGalempsy_> andypugh: and malcom2073 im a subscriber to both your channels :)
[19:36:03] <BeachBumPete> I have a youtube channel with subscribers too ;)
[19:36:22] <andypugh> My quirk is that nobody (especialy the auto captions) have any clue what I am saying
[19:36:43] <MacGalempsy_> lol. time to hire a narrorator
[19:36:44] <malcom2073> Heh
[19:36:57] <malcom2073> I don't talk in my videos
[19:36:58] <malcom2073> I sound like I'm 12
[19:37:18] <andypugh> MyfordBoy gets by with never speaking, so it can be done.
[19:37:22] <malcom2073> Man that HAAS minimill is nice
[19:37:59] <malcom2073> Base price is totally over my mill + tooling budget haha
[19:38:01] <BeachBumPete> it is actually
[19:38:17] <BeachBumPete> there are also several different flavors
[19:38:29] <Wolf_> BeachBumPete: what page does the build actually start on :P
[19:38:34] <andypugh> <gloat> Amongst my subscribers are AvE and Keith Fenner. :-)
[19:38:40] <malcom2073> BeachBumPete: I'm looking at the cheapest one
[19:38:50] <MacGalempsy_> The quick personal intro before jumping into the project does wonders. It kind of reminds me of writing journal articles, you got to catch their attention or they just read the abstract then turn it off
[19:38:57] <malcom2073> andypugh: That's cause you're *the* linuxcnc lathe guy
[19:39:12] <BeachBumPete> Wolf its in there man the build spanned a couple years
[19:39:20] <Wolf_> haha
[19:39:29] <Wolf_> sounds like my x2...
[19:41:19] <BeachBumPete> http://i.imgur.com/HdP6ARc.jpg
[19:42:08] <MacGalempsy_> andypugh: did you see my reply in the forum as to how to get the Z to home without g-code?
[19:42:27] <andypugh> What does the HAAS minimil cost? (it looks nice). One thing that makes sense is that it is 10” Z travel, but the spindle stops 4” from the table. How much time have you spent wanting a _shorter_ tool?
[19:43:43] <malcom2073> andypugh: base #35k
[19:43:45] <malcom2073> $35k
[19:44:17] <malcom2073> With ridig tapping, probe setup, and coolant stuff, $42k
[19:44:38] <malcom2073> But they show "You can get financing for a low monthly price of $760"
[19:44:39] <malcom2073> hah!
[19:45:06] <andypugh> Good price point. Same as a car. That’s the money keen hobbyists spend.
[19:45:08] <MacGalempsy_> hmmm. buy new car vs take bus and get HAAS
[19:45:22] <malcom2073> keen well off.
[19:45:24] <BeachBumPete> that is actually not bad
[19:45:31] <malcom2073> No hobbiest I've met in person has that kind of money :-P
[19:45:42] <BeachBumPete> if you have products to make you could pay for that easily
[19:45:46] <elmo40> you don't have 42k lying around?
[19:45:58] <MacGalempsy_> most hobbiests you meet are aspiring rich hobbiests
[19:46:00] <malcom2073> Heh
[19:46:09] <malcom2073> aspiring to be rich
[19:46:12] <andypugh> I know hobbyists with that sort of money
[19:46:22] <MacGalempsy_> last time I had that kind of dough laying around I bought a 911 turbo
[19:46:24] * Wolf_ has no money
[19:46:31] <Wolf_> I keep wasting it on tools
[19:46:44] <malcom2073> I keep wasting mine on things like gas, and food heh
[19:46:54] <MacGalempsy_> it doesnt make money, but it makes me smile
[19:47:00] <elmo40> food and electricity up here...
[19:47:09] <malcom2073> If this job actually works out, I'm not gonna make any money on the job itself, but it'll pay for the machine which is why I'm doing it
[19:47:12] <BeachBumPete> http://i.imgur.com/tg0pa87.jpg
[19:47:34] <BeachBumPete> those are some parts I machined for a pneumatic cylinder I made on the RF45 CNC
[19:48:12] <andypugh> This is Youtube, so must be public, this is where a LinuxCNC hobbyist I know lives, filmed from his drone. As it happens his hobby-mill is a Deckel CNC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mbqOE8Y-0Q
[19:48:16] <Wolf_> nice
[19:48:52] <malcom2073> Heh
[19:49:25] <malcom2073> yeah I'm in the wrong line of work to be that kind of hobbiest
[19:49:40] <Wolf_> oo nice, Keith Rucker posted a 30 min vid on hand scraping
[19:50:40] <Wolf_> hopefully there is some info in it lol
[19:51:54] <BeachBumPete> hehehe I have not looked back thru my CNCZONE thread for a long time. It is fun to see all the stuff I did to/with that RF45
[19:52:03] <andypugh> You can tell that his life worked out quite well from the car.
[19:53:16] <andypugh> Though his partner did leave him because he spent too much time in the workshop. He seemed to get over that fairly quickly.
[19:53:40] <BeachBumPete> is that you?
[19:54:04] <andypugh> I wish!
[19:54:21] <MacGalempsy_> what is that an A8?
[19:54:26] <MacGalempsy_> S8?
[19:54:30] <andypugh> Yes, A8.
[19:54:31] <BeachBumPete> R8
[19:54:34] <Wolf_> r8
[19:54:53] <andypugh> He’s making a Ferrari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlPWFT73Qns
[19:55:38] <MacGalempsy_> any idea which one?
[19:55:48] <MacGalempsy_> I like the GTO250
[19:56:16] <andypugh> Actually, he is making a Ferrari engine, the clue is in the video title
[19:56:59] <MacGalempsy_> ah, i c
[19:57:30] <Wolf_> … he even made fuel injectors !
[19:59:01] <BeachBumPete> OOh Cool the Gyros have arrived ;)
[20:00:35] <andypugh> The point is, that there exists a class of semi-wealthy hobbyists. They buy a brand-new Colchester Student lathe (£10,000) to be sure it’s a good one. I admit, I am not that far short of that part of the Venn diagram myself. Maybe I should have asked for a quote for a Student without apron and feeds box as the basis for my current lathe rather than buy an old Holbrook and remove those parts.
[20:01:20] <BeachBumPete> naah
[20:01:26] <BeachBumPete> I like the holbrook ;)
[20:01:29] <malcom2073> Heh
[20:01:37] <malcom2073> I know there exists
[20:01:44] <malcom2073> They're just well outside my personal social circle :-P
[20:01:51] <andypugh> Wolf_: He’s not just finanacially comfortable, he is _really_ good at making stuff.
[20:02:06] <Wolf_> no kidding
[20:03:27] <BeachBumPete> man I remember when I first started that RF45 CNC mill I used to stay up late watching CNC machining youtube videos like it was PORN LOL
[20:03:35] <andypugh> malcom2073: How old are you? Social circles expand.
[20:03:36] <XXCoder> lol
[20:03:46] <malcom2073> andypugh: 31, not terribly old heh
[20:03:59] <malcom2073> most machinests I know around here are in their 70's though haha
[20:04:29] <XXCoder> around here tend to be younger though few old machinists
[20:04:30] <Wolf_> good for getting tooling (old tooling anyways)
[20:07:20] <BeachBumPete> watching deepwater horizon...hopefullly its a good movie
[20:07:43] <Wolf_> its not a bad movie, least IMO
[20:08:53] <XXCoder> horzon event ;)
[20:11:02] <andypugh> malcom2073: yeah, just watch. Part of it is people you know doing well. Friends from college are now well-known authors or peers of the realm and NATO commanders. And on the internet you can meet people in a situation where you don’t make assumptions based on appearance. it id defintely the case that the age-range of my friends has massively increased once i couldn’t tell. I have “proper” friends from 18 to 80. T
[20:11:02] <andypugh> was not the case pre-internet
[20:11:53] <MacGalempsy_> I thought it was pretty good. The portrayal of the engineers was spot on with my previous dealings with drilling engineers.
[20:12:05] <malcom2073> Yeah, the internet is the great equalizer. Everyone is the same until they start typingheh
[20:12:57] <Wolf_> I know a few guys that are well off, how I know them is the odd part lol
[20:13:36] <Wolf_> couple of them I met when flying RC stuff at local park
[20:13:56] <andypugh> BeachBumPete: Not keen to watch that film. The whole episode left a bad taste. Would BP have been hounded quite so badly ahd they been a US company? After all, the mistakes were made by the rig owners (Haliburton?)
[20:14:56] <Wolf_> film played it as it was BP company man on the rig that cut corners
[20:15:17] <Wolf_> hence the reason he was charged with 11 counts of manslaughter
[20:15:44] <BeachBumPete> andypugh no idea man. It was a tragedy all around
[20:15:44] <andypugh> Ever seen a film where a soldier in a red coat was the good guy?
[20:16:32] <Wolf_> only when the soldiers where in africa :P
[20:16:59] <BeachBumPete> sure
[20:17:04] <andypugh> We get a lot of imported dramas, and every time,we are the bad guys.
[20:17:26] <andypugh> (if red coats feature)
[20:17:28] <BeachBumPete> honestly my friend if it makes you feel ANY better I personally have a ton of respect and admiration for the UK
[20:17:41] <gregcnc> malcolm2073 are you making product or starting jobshop?
[20:17:59] <gregcnc> malcom2073 ^^
[20:18:28] <malcom2073> gregcnc: Making a decent run of a product, and using that as an opportunity to outfit my hobbiest shop with better tooling heh
[20:19:20] <gregcnc> you were asking about tormach or 100k machines. many are happy to find an old fadal and start with that
[20:19:51] <andypugh> Deepwater Horizon was a huge mess. One thing I admire about BP was their honesty. They gave us live feeds and asked for ideas to fix it, as it was a new problem.
[20:19:55] <BeachBumPete> I wanted a fadal and almost bought one before I found the Cincinatti
[20:20:41] <malcom2073> I don't want to mess around with a used machine, too worried about getting a lemon, or something breaking, then being under a machine and not be able to do the job
[20:21:15] <MacGalempsy_> in the movie, they portrayed that SLB did not run the cement bond log, when the rig owners, Transatlantic, asked about the logs to check the cement integrity, the BP engineers ignored it because they were 50+days behind schedule
[20:22:00] <gregcnc> well that's normal with a used machine, or you go through it like you would anything you want to be reliable
[20:22:03] <andypugh> I had a neat idea to cap the leak. I can’t remember why I did’bt suggest it. Maybe because then-me was much less coinfident than now-me
[20:22:23] <MacGalempsy_> some of the sensors failed, and the failure made the BP engineers case seem valid, so the ordered to push ahead.
[20:22:26] <BeachBumPete> malcom2073 I used to feel that way
[20:22:29] <malcom2073> I don't know enough to go through a machine
[20:22:41] <gregcnc> you learn along the way
[20:22:50] <malcom2073> I can't afford to learn the hard way :-P
[20:23:07] <BeachBumPete> I think you will find that commercial machines at least vertical machining centers are quite well put together and relatively easy to work on for the most part
[20:23:41] <malcom2073> This isn't a hobbiest thing, this is: some guy gives me money, and expects parts. can't dick around doing a retrofit on a machine because the computer system went out on it
[20:23:45] <gregcnc> if you can work on a car or tractor you can work on a machine
[20:23:54] <gregcnc> use an oriignial control
[20:24:19] <MacGalempsy_> I do think the fine was too much, as the natural order of biodegredation has eaten a lot of the hydrocarbons, however, once the oil slick hit the onshore it was a pretty big mess
[20:24:21] <malcom2073> Or can't dick around replacing the control, because there's no budget for it. I can't take chances like that heh
[20:24:30] <BeachBumPete> this is NOT a hobby for me either man
[20:24:34] <gregcnc> I mean don't change it
[20:24:34] <andypugh> malcom2073: As I said, I have never heard of anyone being disappointed by a Tormach. Yes, this is a lot to do with the expectations of Tormach buyers, but still, it is valid.
[20:24:52] <gregcnc> if you have 50k to spend there's in plenty out htere in VMC
[20:25:02] <malcom2073> Budget is around $25-30k I think
[20:25:06] <malcom2073> that includes tooling
[20:25:27] <gregcnc> you can buy a robodrill or brother for that
[20:25:35] <gregcnc> maybe not much tooing
[20:26:09] <BeachBumPete> if you actually have that much cash on hand you might check with local machine resellers, they often will sell a machine with a maintenance contract etc.
[20:26:43] <gregcnc> used machines through dealers are expensive
[20:27:01] <gregcnc> and they don't check or fix anything
[20:27:10] <malcom2073> Hmm, through a dealer could be an option, do they offer warranties on used machines typically?
[20:27:15] <andypugh> MacGalempsy_: Apparently DH added aboiut 10% to the annual leakage of oil into the Gulf. It’s an ecosystem that can eat oil. So, dependng on how you spin it, that’s 1% of the per-decade leak, or a doubling of the monthly leak…..
[20:28:03] <gregcnc> yeah i saw an article about natural leakage, it was enlightening
[20:29:03] <BeachBumPete> the horizon was a floating platform right?
[20:30:20] <MacGalempsy_> yeah, semi submersible
[20:32:00] <andypugh> I am not a fan of the oil industry. But I feel BP got harsh treatment.
[20:32:25] <MacGalempsy_> the thing most people dont understand is that micro oraganisms will proportionately reproduce when the free electron source is abundant. and when that source is gone, then the bugs die off.
[20:32:31] <gregcnc> https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-sale/365179-sharp-sv-2412s-vertical-machining-centers
[20:32:43] <andypugh> If the next one to mess up is Mexican, I axpect that Trump will just Nuke them
[20:32:54] <BeachBumPete> that sharp is....well... SHARP
[20:33:07] <gregcnc> I've heard good things about those
[20:33:21] <gregcnc> but read up on anything you intend to buy
[20:33:45] <Wolf_> how about 1998 Victor Fortune Vertical Machining Center, m/n V-Center/65, s/n NT-1260 w/44" x 23" Table, 40 Tool Cat 40 ATC w/Fanuc Series O-M CNC Controls w/Nikken CNC 320V-FA 4th Axis Turntable
[20:33:58] <malcom2073> Yeah heh
[20:34:00] <Wolf_> one of the machines at the auction that didn’t sell
[20:34:05] <Wolf_> $9k
[20:34:13] <BeachBumPete> the machine I wanted was a Fadal VMC 15XT
[20:34:58] <Wolf_> for $15k you might be able to pick up a pair of them lol
[20:35:02] <XXCoder> my work they got om-2a haas
[20:35:05] <XXCoder> tiny machine!
[20:35:17] <XXCoder> 220v I think also means can machine at home with little power mods
[20:35:27] <malcom2073> Wolf_: Lol extra one "just in case"
[20:35:29] <BeachBumPete> I do ;)
[20:36:31] <Wolf_> malcom2073: https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/comly-auctioneers/catalogue-id-bscco10091/lot-6a525bae-9a46-4ee3-8e63-a70400ed83b2
[20:36:36] <XXCoder> I looked around and used ones is too rare lol
[20:36:56] <Wolf_> I have the unsold lot list here for that auction
[20:39:14] <andypugh> Tormach: It arrives, it works. Second-hand machine: Might work, might not. Might be good, might be bad. If it’s worn, could be scrap. I am a hobbyist, buy in class 2, but for fun and as a project. If I had orders to fill and no machine, no way would I but used/broken
[20:39:36] <Wolf_> lots 261-265, VMC, and lot 272 HMC
[20:39:46] <malcom2073> andypugh: That's kinda the way I look at it
[20:40:03] <malcom2073> My machine was on a pallet sitting outside for a year when I bought it :-D
[20:40:27] <malcom2073> Dirt cheap... but it took a while to get running, and may have been a total waste
[20:40:35] <Wolf_> this auction looks like a shop liquidation sale
[20:40:37] <malcom2073> But it worked out
[20:41:22] <MacGalempsy_> malcom2073: where are you located again?
[20:41:23] <gregcnc> there is risk with everything, even new machines are crap at times
[20:42:52] <BeachBumPete> that is all true but there are hundreds of small shops over on practical machinist and other sites that start with used equipment and make a go of it
[20:43:06] <gregcnc> that's right and sometimes you just have to fix it
[20:43:27] <malcom2073> MacGalempsy_: south central PA
[20:43:46] * Wolf_ was trying to point out that the auction stuff was probably from a working shop
[20:44:04] <malcom2073> I'm not looking to make a go at it, I'm looking to do this single job payout that nets me a new machine :-P
[20:44:04] <BeachBumPete> then of course I watchen them install a brand new HAAS VMC at the last shop I worked in that was broken from the start and had techs there daily for a month before it started to work well.
[20:44:06] <gregcnc> yes, but if it didn't sell for 9k it wasn't worth it
[20:44:15] <Wolf_> not everything was old in there either https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/comly-auctioneers/catalogue-id-bscco10091/lot-b47caf49-8f8f-43c7-a3fd-a70400ed83b2
[20:44:39] <andypugh> gregcnc: But if you buy new and it doesn’t work it isn’t your job to fix it. Sometimes that matters.
[20:44:49] <MacGalempsy_> are you looking to trailer something home, or have the riggers deliver it?
[20:44:56] <gregcnc> if it kills a contract what difference does it make?
[20:45:04] <Wolf_> stuff went for cheap, cat 40 er holders went for $10 each
[20:45:06] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSKJxplIZ4
[20:45:08] <XXCoder> om 2a
[20:45:12] <XXCoder> tiiiiny
[20:45:23] <malcom2073> MacGalempsy_: Delievered
[20:45:24] <gregcnc> I want one of those
[20:45:39] <XXCoder> gregcnc: shop I work for has 2, and one is left wrapped up! lol
[20:45:49] <gregcnc> just not used?
[20:45:52] <XXCoder> recent arrival from now dead sister company
[20:45:58] <XXCoder> one seems nope
[20:45:58] <gregcnc> oh
[20:46:00] <Wolf_> I think the renishaw probe went for $160
[20:47:04] <gregcnc> but they only make sense if your parts are small
[20:47:18] <XXCoder> 90% of parts we make can fit in there lol
[20:47:34] <XXCoder> though not as much with 4th axis (yes both has em)
[20:47:49] <gregcnc> 1 part or many?
[20:48:04] <XXCoder> oh one part a time heh
[20:48:24] <XXCoder> we do make HUGE parts, few of em though lol
[20:48:32] <XXCoder> I still remember helicoper plates jeez
[20:48:40] <XXCoder> half of part was sticking out of machine
[20:49:53] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feNyf6JHzNA how outside looks like
[20:50:06] <XXCoder> as you can see its crazy small
[20:50:54] <andypugh> Anyway: My point is that Tormach is not the right choice for me, but I can easilu imagine people it would be the right choice for.
[20:50:55] <XXCoder> wow laser sensor addon
[20:51:02] <gregcnc> yeah I've looked at specs, you push them through a 36" door, plug in to 220 and run
[20:51:31] <XXCoder> huh bottom doors has stuff, one at work was just empty
[20:52:04] <XXCoder> greg though im curious
[20:52:13] <XXCoder> can do 100 rpm for example or is it just 30k rpm?
[20:52:22] <Wolf_> another thought on the auction stuff, being a liquidation sale, is to call the auction company up next week and see whats left and bottom $$ on it, seeing they say that everything needs to be out by the 10th
[20:53:26] <gregcnc> they can run slow, but you may not have much torque, so tap size may be limited i don't know what kind of motor it is and haven't seen a spindle power plot
[20:53:52] <XXCoder> interesting. thanks
[20:54:13] <XXCoder> im sure it probably $50,000 though couldnt find prices anywhere
[20:55:58] <gregcnc> ~60k base price
[20:56:58] <XXCoder> fancy.
[20:57:12] <XXCoder> yeah im not likely to get one, even used lol
[20:58:19] <gregcnc> there was one on CL locally a couple months back
[20:58:36] <XXCoder> how much was it?
[20:58:48] <gregcnc> no price, and i din't bother asking
[20:59:44] <XXCoder> to me no price is too priceless for me
[21:00:35] <malcom2073> "If you have to ask, you can't afford it"
[21:00:51] <gregcnc> i know more than i could spend
[21:01:19] <XXCoder> mal even if its $10, if it not priced im not bothering to ask
[21:01:53] <malcom2073> heh
[21:02:51] <gregcnc> https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-sale/393034
[21:03:33] <XXCoder> looks like no enclosure
[21:03:44] <roycroft> if it's on cl it's not going to be plug-and-play
[21:05:14] <XXCoder> not likely yeah
[21:05:25] <XXCoder> by time its on cl it has a serious problem
[21:05:39] <XXCoder> work has ancient fadal 88 thats still working for years
[21:05:51] <XXCoder> it used to be in pair, but one died few years ago
[21:24:42] <andypugh> Survey: If an LED in a GUI is ever dark red or bright yellow, which is True and which is False?
[21:25:05] <andypugh> (Yes, this is a question about Halshow)
[21:25:34] <andypugh> (ever / either)
[21:26:35] <XXCoder> no idea. red would be good for negative, like "something is wrong!"
[21:26:48] <XXCoder> yellow status or warning
[21:27:02] <XXCoder> "true" or "false" can go either way
[21:27:51] <andypugh> it’s HAL They inly ever indicate 1 or 0, truen or false
[21:29:35] <roycroft> the iso indicator standard states that green is no fault/good, amber is informational, and red is fault/error
[21:29:48] <XXCoder> indeed
[21:29:58] <roycroft> i don't see how that translates to true/false, however
[21:30:13] <andypugh> Yes, quite,
[21:30:16] <XXCoder> if true is lit, then usually it means somethings happening
[21:30:24] <andypugh> Ever used Halshow?
[21:30:29] <roycroft> no
[21:30:36] <XXCoder> unlit means nothing happening. for example red is not lit means theres nothing serious to be concerned about.
[21:31:04] <roycroft> red should always mean something is wrong
[21:31:31] <andypugh> You all seem to be assuming actual LeDs
[21:31:40] <XXCoder> some machines I use has lights that is green, yellow, and red. red flashing is shit happened, yellow flashing means either warning or it is idle, green steady is running just dandy
[21:31:41] <roycroft> if i were designing a user interface that only indicated true/false, i would probably use amber for true, and unlit for false
[21:32:30] <XXCoder> roy indeed
[21:32:30] <andypugh> Let me step back. I think that the LED colours in Halshow are confusing.
[21:32:47] <XXCoder> yeah if its not clear there
[21:32:50] <roycroft> yes, and i agree, based only on your description
[21:33:43] <MacGalempsy_> gn8
[21:33:53] <XXCoder> no manuals?
[21:35:25] <roycroft> i'm putting a light mast on my mill as part of the cnc conversion, and i want four states to be indicated
[21:35:39] <roycroft> 1. the machine is plugged into the mains
[21:35:42] <roycroft> 2. the machine is powerd up
[21:35:50] <roycroft> 3. the machine is doing work
[21:35:56] <roycroft> 4. the machine is in fault mode
[21:36:07] <andypugh> https://imagebin.ca/v/3AOZNj9cq8Qr
[21:36:08] <roycroft> 2 should be amber, 3 should be green, and 4 should be red
[21:36:10] <roycroft> that is clear
[21:36:15] <roycroft> but i'm not sure about 1
[21:36:17] <roycroft> i'm thinking blue
[21:36:51] <roycroft> yes, that is confusing, andypugh
[21:37:06] <XXCoder> red isnt good for "it is on"
[21:37:10] <roycroft> it's a very poor interface
[21:37:16] <XXCoder> should be "oh shit something"
[21:37:21] <roycroft> red *always* means some kind of error/fault conditino
[21:37:24] <roycroft> condition
[21:37:42] <roycroft> make two columns of buttons
[21:37:42] <andypugh> After years of LinuxCNC I know that red is false and yellow is true, and Ihad forgotten that that is far from obvious unltil today on the foru,
[21:37:50] <roycroft> label the one on the left "true" and the one on the right "false
[21:37:56] <XXCoder> green is fine on status? dunno about notifications-clear
[21:37:58] <roycroft> and use amber for each
[21:38:12] <roycroft> that is one option that is a lot more clear
[21:38:35] <andypugh> PCW suggested black for 0 and green for 2
[21:38:45] <andypugh> (green for 1)
[21:38:58] <roycroft> that might work
[21:39:04] <roycroft> it's a lot better than what is there
[21:39:12] <roycroft> but i like the two column thing better
[21:39:16] <roycroft> it's completely unambiguous
[21:39:28] <XXCoder> I really need to learn how to do some more hal stuff
[21:39:32] <roycroft> and would not consume any appreciable extra real estate
[21:39:34] <XXCoder> linuxcnc default ui sucks
[21:39:55] <andypugh> The same display shows numbers too, columns wouldn’t work.
[21:40:15] <andypugh> Actually, in that display, 0 and 1 would be clearer
[21:40:23] <roycroft> if your default state should be false, then green for true would be wrong
[21:40:41] <roycroft> yes
[21:40:45] <roycroft> or T and F
[21:41:04] <roycroft> although 0 for F and 1 for T is almost universally understood
[21:42:17] <andypugh> There is no default. The options are true and false. True could be “huge error” or “all OK”. There is no context of meaning, just logical true or logical balse
[21:42:37] <roycroft> well red *always* indicates a fault
[21:42:58] <roycroft> so it should never be used for indicating true or false in this context
[21:43:15] <andypugh> No it doesn’t. Very often it means “power on” and a cheap LED
[21:43:24] <roycroft> that is a violation of the iso standard
[21:43:53] <andypugh> OK, so my TV violates an ISO standard
[21:43:58] <andypugh> And my toaster
[21:44:17] <roycroft> if they have red power on indicators, yes
[21:44:21] <roycroft> good thing you're brexiting!
[21:44:30] <andypugh> And my reading lamp.
[21:44:44] <roycroft> otherwise your toaster might be subject to a recall
[21:44:50] <andypugh> My house is full of red LEDs not indicating a fault.
[21:45:07] <roycroft> mine has fewer than it used to
[21:45:24] <XXCoder> nothing of mine has red power on status, been a while
[21:45:30] <roycroft> but that standard was adopted in the late 1980s
[21:45:48] <roycroft> it may only apply to industrial applications
[21:45:57] <XXCoder> it was somewhat slow tranition, my 1993 tv had red power on
[21:46:05] <XXCoder> likely, roy
[21:46:35] <roycroft> i was beta testing modem firmware for telebit in the late '80s/early '90s
[21:46:42] <roycroft> they were coming out with a new model
[21:46:48] <roycroft> the old telebit modems had red leds
[21:46:58] <andypugh> OMG! my gas boiler shows 8 red LEDs, and my eletricity meter has two! Should I evacuate? How about the rest of the street?
[21:47:15] <roycroft> the new model was in early production, but they ended up having to bin them all because of the leds
[21:47:29] <roycroft> and had to make new ones with amber leds, so they would be able to sell them in europe
[21:48:42] <roycroft> i started seeing machinery using the new iso standard in this country after that, although we have never legally adopted the standard here
[21:49:49] <XXCoder> roy they just threw em out? why not just sell em to non-europe markets till run out?
[21:50:03] <roycroft> it was an early production run, xxcoder
[21:50:09] <roycroft> they were still testing the firmware
[21:50:16] <roycroft> so they didn't make very many of them
[21:50:20] <andypugh> And making fun of us for Brexit seems hollow whan Trump is looking to do so many crazy things, and there is a motion in the Senate(?) to leave the UN
[21:50:20] <XXCoder> how many made? 100? millions?
[21:50:29] <XXCoder> ahh guess it makes sense
[21:50:30] <roycroft> probably low four figures at most
[21:50:54] <XXCoder> andy yeah lets see what happens. we are in for a ride thats for sure
[21:51:17] <XXCoder> watching a powerful country go insane from inside is not fun for me so far
[21:51:31] <roycroft> andypugh: i make fun of brexit, yet what the uk are doing is way more sane than what we are doing
[21:52:03] <roycroft> i'm afraid your prime minister is going to have to seek medical attention for excessive eye rolling when she returns home
[21:52:20] <andypugh> Indeed, when we leave the EU nothing will really change, and thing that do change will change slowly.
[21:52:49] <XXCoder> one guy joked about that visit with crotch grabbing, and other guy replied with "She would probably be grateful" yeah rape culture is wonderful.
[21:52:50] <roycroft> things are already getting horrible here
[21:52:58] <roycroft> and they're going to get a lot worse before they get any better
[21:53:12] <Gene_home> do you have a option for something similar to http://www.ebay.com/itm/75x25x32mm-Toolmaker-Precision-Micro-Adjustable-Angle-V-Block-Milling-0-To-60-/182425804326?hash=item2a796cde26:g:OcwAAOSw5cNYfxDl
[21:53:17] * XXCoder uses brakes in eye sockets to stop the spinning
[21:53:34] <roycroft> as of tuesday next, directv is going dark at my house
[21:53:40] <roycroft> i'll be ota only for the first time in decades
[21:53:47] <roycroft> that is one of my coping mechanisms
[21:54:01] <XXCoder> I havent really watched tv for decades niw
[21:54:03] <roycroft> i just can't stand turning on the television and seeing nothing but people yelling at each other
[21:54:15] <XXCoder> well well over a decade anyway. certainly 15 years over
[21:55:22] <andypugh> I am astonished that he really does seem to be going for the Southern Wall, and even more astonished that he still seems to thjink that Mexico should pay. If Mexico has to pay, then they should get to specify the quality of the wall, and declare it adequate already.
[21:55:40] <XXCoder> 20% taxes for them
[21:55:49] <roycroft> he put the president of mexico in an impossible situation
[21:55:52] <XXCoder> wonderful because that will kill usa ecomany
[21:55:53] <roycroft> with no room to negotiate
[21:55:58] <roycroft> i have not read "the art of the deal"
[21:56:09] <roycroft> which is claimed to be the greatest book ever written
[21:56:49] <roycroft> but i have been informed that a principle tenant of negotiation, according to that book, is to always leave room for the other person to negotiate
[21:56:50] <andypugh> Maybe Mexico can invade fom the south (record is good) and Canada from the North (record is good) :-)
[21:56:53] <roycroft> never back the person into a corner
[21:57:15] <roycroft> this is the reality:
[21:57:23] <roycroft> trump does not intend to build the wall
[21:57:27] <XXCoder> COW states should disconnect from usa :P
[21:57:31] <roycroft> and he needs someone to blame for it
[21:57:37] <XXCoder> (wa, or, calif)
[21:58:01] <roycroft> there is a clause in the california constitution that prohibits the state from seceding from the union
[21:58:16] <XXCoder> so calfornia has one more step
[21:58:18] <roycroft> a ballot measure to repeal that clause has collected over 600,000 signatures
[21:58:26] <roycroft> and will appear on the ballot in the next election
[21:58:26] <XXCoder> crazy wow
[21:58:54] <andypugh> I read a vaguely convincing article (Michael Moore, not someone I am nornally a fan of) who suggested that Trump only started the campaign to get his game-show back
[21:59:02] <BeachBumPete> That was a pretty good movie
[21:59:13] <roycroft> yes, he never wanted to or expected to win
[21:59:17] <BeachBumPete> it was interesting to see how it all went down
[21:59:27] <XXCoder> he was narrastic enough to go all way
[21:59:32] <roycroft> even on election night, he had a deer-in-headlights look when it realised he was actually going to win
[21:59:48] <roycroft> the look was "oh, shit, i'm going to win - i actually have to be president"
[21:59:58] <BeachBumPete> you don't actually believe that do you?
[22:00:20] <roycroft> yes, i absolutely do
[22:00:25] <BeachBumPete> WOW
[22:00:32] <roycroft> he still has no interest in doing the job of president
[22:00:33] <andypugh> There are several folk on this IRC who wanted him to win, by the way.
[22:00:35] <XXCoder> I dont know but boy body language of his.. no shit
[22:00:37] <roycroft> he likes "being" president
[22:00:43] <roycroft> i'm sure there are
[22:01:06] <XXCoder> guys deaf usually have much more stronger body language reading, I suck for a deaf person but...
[22:01:15] <roycroft> and i can understand some reasosn that folks might want him to win
[22:01:16] <XXCoder> he and his wife dont like each other
[22:01:23] <BeachBumPete> honestly I think I better get off here now as I don't want to make enemies here
[22:01:26] <roycroft> reasons besides being racist and xenophobic
[22:01:38] <BeachBumPete> Gn8
[22:01:38] <XXCoder> its more of... business relationship between those 2
[22:01:42] <roycroft> you won't make an enemy of me, beachbumpete
[22:02:07] <roycroft> really, i don't think poorly of folks who voted for him
[22:02:25] <XXCoder> me either
[22:02:30] <roycroft> but i'm not a democrat nor a republican
[22:02:35] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQDnzWP4HKk
[22:02:40] <roycroft> and really don't like partisanship
[22:02:52] <roycroft> anyway, back to topic
[22:03:04] <roycroft> i would lobby heavily for changing red and amber to 0 and 1, andypugh
[22:03:06] <andypugh> An interesing and possibky true statemenrt about our ex-Prime Minister was “He acheived all his ambitions when he became PM.” In that he had worked very hard to _get_ the job, and not spent much time on what to _do_ with the job.
[22:03:29] <roycroft> yes, i saw a lot of that in cameron
[22:04:02] <roycroft> he was prime minister without portfolio :)
[22:04:09] <jdh> maybe he'll bring back slavery and america can really be great again!
[22:04:54] <XXCoder> heh if usa turns nazi im one of first to die
[22:05:04] <XXCoder> andy yoyu get my cnc router :P
[22:05:10] <roycroft> i'll just say this one more thing
[22:05:19] <roycroft> and then i'll leave politics alone for tonight
[22:05:26] <roycroft> i'm not concerned about trump
[22:05:37] <roycroft> he's a horrible person who will do horrible things to this nation
[22:05:38] <jdh> I think that is required due to the hitler thing
[22:05:41] <andypugh> Should be easy, just pass a law that all persons in the US without a green-card or passport are the property of their most recent employer. Job done.
[22:05:45] <roycroft> but we are a strong nation and we will survive him
[22:05:58] <roycroft> i'm more concerned that the democrats show no signs of understanding why they lost
[22:06:15] <roycroft> and if they don't figure it out soon, my concern is about who will succeed trump
[22:06:21] <roycroft> we've had bad regimes in the past
[22:06:21] <XXCoder> roy sadly I do. democrat have turned corprate stoogies
[22:06:26] <roycroft> but we always self-correct
[22:06:33] <roycroft> this time we don't show any signs of that sofar
[22:06:51] <roycroft> and now i shall step off the soapbox :)
[22:07:08] <andypugh> I am most concerned that he will renege on the Paris Treaty. Really, that bothers me more than anything.
[22:07:23] <roycroft> ok, i'll step back on for a moment
[22:07:38] <roycroft> the things trump does regarding human rights will be really bad
[22:07:40] <XXCoder> oil and coal is on its way out.
[22:07:43] <roycroft> but we can reverse them
[22:07:51] <roycroft> the things he does to the planet not so much
[22:07:54] <XXCoder> trump is trying to bring it back but...
[22:08:11] <roycroft> so i agree with you there, andypugh
[22:08:19] <roycroft> we're running out of time
[22:08:35] <jdh> so, how 'bout that linuxcnc stuff?
[22:08:43] <roycroft> now i'll step down again for real
[22:09:00] * XXCoder steps off the ramp and falls into ocean
[22:09:04] <andypugh> well, maybe he will start a nuclear war. Long term that would be good for the planet.
[22:09:34] <roycroft> there's a bill in congress that would prohibit the president from initiating a first strike nuclear deployment
[22:09:37] <andypugh> (pretty catastrophically bad for humans, though)
[22:09:49] <roycroft> that same bill was introduced last session, when obama was president
[22:09:56] <roycroft> so it's not trump-specific
[22:10:07] * roycroft notes that he is currently being informational, not political
[22:10:20] <andypugh> Noted :-)
[22:10:43] <roycroft> as it stands, the president of the united states can deploy nuclear weapons without consulting anyone, for any reason
[22:10:54] <roycroft> this legislation would still permit response to an attack
[22:11:06] <roycroft> which has to be the case, as there are only minutes to respond
[22:11:19] <roycroft> but would require congressional approval for first strike
[22:11:56] <andypugh> It bother me that the US president matters to me. What webt wrong? We were meant to be in charge of a wroldwide empire based on tea and understatement.
[22:13:42] <roycroft> it's all neville chamberlain's fault
[22:14:14] <roycroft> he laid the groundwork for the fall of the empire
[22:16:19] <andypugh> I think that Hitler played some part
[22:17:16] <roycroft> well yes
[22:17:32] <roycroft> but chamberlain's appeasement policy leading up to the war positioned the uk very badlyl
[22:17:34] <XXCoder> just hope trump never signs into law usa version of enabling act
[22:18:12] <roycroft> don't take this wrong
[22:18:17] <XXCoder> trump said he only read summaries wriotten by other people. "uhh this enabling act hmm it enables american workers to have more jobs sure thats the ticket"
[22:18:29] <roycroft> but the brits didn't do too well in the war until the us started helping out
[22:18:34] <roycroft> and that should not have been the case
[22:18:49] <roycroft> you should have been in a stronger position from the start
[22:19:06] <XXCoder> usa certainly helped, but usa was not the sole reason allies won war
[22:19:47] <roycroft> that's not what i said at all
[22:20:09] <XXCoder> I know
[22:20:15] <XXCoder> was just making commentary
[22:20:41] <andypugh> Reading around, as far as I can tell the UK never really wanted an empire, they just wanted lots of people to sell stuff to, and the empire was sort-of a byproduct. Certainly there was a fear during the Raid on Canton of (Oh, no, not China too?) and the same during the Expedition to Abyssinnia. (the only thing the UK went in to expecting to fail. But, bizzarrely, didn’t).
[22:20:42] <andypugh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expedition_to_Abyssinia (absolutely fascinating)
[22:21:12] <XXCoder> andy dont forget sugar and later tabacoo addiction
[22:22:45] <XXCoder> man in 1700s they sure as heck was addicted to sugar lol
[22:23:13] <roycroft> and powdered wigs
[22:23:49] <roycroft> and insane kings named charles
[22:23:59] <XXCoder> in least it wasnt lead powder, the earliest and first artifical sweetener, greek era lol
[22:24:05] <roycroft> er, george
[22:24:23] <roycroft> i was thinking about the current heir presumptive :)
[22:25:32] <roycroft> fortunatly, they got the craziness out of the georges by the 20th century
[22:25:53] <XXCoder> you now have longest queen ever for your country
[22:26:00] <XXCoder> she will probably outlive me heh
[22:26:18] <roycroft> that is irrelevant
[22:26:21] <andypugh> Give that you got Trump I am thinking that, actually, a head of state bred for the job from birth with no real power isn’t the worst of all choices
[22:26:27] <roycroft> her intent is to outlive her son
[22:27:16] <andypugh> She’s just a monarch, the only way out is to die, it’s the rules.
[22:27:54] <andypugh> I wouldn’t be totally surprised if Charles chose to be skipped,
[22:28:17] <roycroft> except had that rule not been broken in 1936 she would never have been monarch
[22:28:56] <andypugh> Bit, the point is, they are just figureheads. They don’t get to make policy, crazy or enlightened.
[22:30:04] <roycroft> that was not the case in the 18th century
[22:30:08] <roycroft> but yes, it is now
[22:30:14] <XXCoder> they do have right to pull goverment and start another but besides that..
[22:30:31] <roycroft> and i do think elizabeth ii has been one of the uk's best monarchs
[22:30:43] <roycroft> because of her sense of duty
[22:30:49] <roycroft> and her love of country
[22:30:52] <andypugh> Though, they are a final safeguard, the Monarch can block any law. (in practice, maybe once…..)
[22:30:59] <roycroft> and her knowing the place of the monarch in modern society
[22:31:00] <XXCoder> cananda has similiar for that queen, though good luck trying that
[22:31:10] <XXCoder> cananda is likely to just say np
[22:31:13] <XXCoder> *no
[22:31:35] <roycroft> victoria was overtly political, in a time when it was no longer acceptable for the monarch to be so
[22:33:14] <andypugh> I think it wass Heinlien who said something like “anyone who desires to be head of state should be barred from being so”
[22:33:53] <XXCoder> one scifi book they have a draft eligiables, and loser have to be head of goverment
[22:33:54] <roycroft> i've always said that in modern times (since the 1960s, at least) anyone who is qualified to be president of the unites states is smart enough not to want the job
[22:34:37] <roycroft> note: i'm being philosophical now, not political :)
[22:35:23] <XXCoder> techinically person who thinks "I want to be president in order to service people and improve quality of life" is ineligiable
[22:35:32] <andypugh> Aye, US president is a curious place to be.
[22:35:58] <roycroft> it's a difficult thing to do, becoming a good president
[22:36:19] <roycroft> to be a good president one has to run out of sense of duty, not desire
[22:36:27] <XXCoder> nor to be rich
[22:36:30] <roycroft> yet it takes tremendous desire to win
[22:36:34] <andypugh> When was the last time that a president had a majority in both houses?
[22:36:48] <roycroft> 2009-2011
[22:37:01] <XXCoder> 400k sounds like a lot but they have to buy expensive clothes for goverment visits, and one lady dress can be $50,000
[22:37:22] <XXCoder> and to dress in walmart dress... big insult or not very impressive for first lady
[22:37:26] <roycroft> the white house has a budget for those kinds of things
[22:37:39] <XXCoder> sure travel and so on but not clothes
[22:37:42] <roycroft> if the first lady wants to own the dress the first family has to buy it
[22:37:59] <roycroft> if the first lady does not want to own the dress but only wear it to a state function, the government can buy it
[22:38:12] <roycroft> but then she is not permitted to ever wear it to a non-governmental function
[22:38:33] <roycroft> and cannot take it with her when the president's term of office is finished
[22:38:40] <XXCoder> I'd guess it would quickly becomes outdated in storage
[22:38:55] <XXCoder> unless in 200 years they wanna wear old style for certain event or something
[22:39:05] <andypugh> (though I am not clear if Trump can actuallly count on Republican support as a “given” ? In the same way as Corbyn can’t reall count in the support of Labour MPs in the UK)
[22:39:14] <roycroft> no, andypugh
[22:39:29] <roycroft> we actually have about the closest thing to a coalition goverment that we've ever had right now
[22:39:35] <roycroft> there are the democrats in the minority
[22:39:41] <roycroft> the republicans in the majority
[22:39:43] <roycroft> and the white house
[22:39:51] <XXCoder> andy its a mix, some stuff yes some stuff very much nope. trump is trying to push 100% health insurance coverage and republicans is very much no on that
[22:40:09] <XXCoder> im still wondering what his "great plan" is.
[22:40:17] <roycroft> trump is not a republican
[22:40:23] <roycroft> and he is not a conservative
[22:40:28] <XXCoder> single payer? some shitty health insurance for poor?
[22:40:29] <roycroft> he is an opportunist
[22:40:38] <XXCoder> roy indeed
[22:40:39] <roycroft> and is completely transactional, not ideological
[22:41:24] <roycroft> as of wednesday i will not have health insurance, for the first time in ~30 years
[22:41:34] <roycroft> the aca utterly failed me
[22:41:45] <roycroft> my premium went up 61% this year, and my deductable 200%
[22:41:51] <roycroft> to the point that i cannot afford it
[22:41:53] <XXCoder> thats insurance companies
[22:41:57] <XXCoder> not aca
[22:42:08] <roycroft> it's the aca
[22:42:14] <roycroft> the aca set that up
[22:42:18] <roycroft> and having just said this
[22:42:32] <roycroft> what is coming from the trump administration is only going to be much, much worse
[22:42:41] <XXCoder> my insurance increased just a little this year.
[22:42:57] <XXCoder> 50 dollars, and no change on deductablke
[22:43:01] <roycroft> the aca limits insurance company profits/overhead to 20% of the premiums they collect
[22:43:06] <XXCoder> company covered that change
[22:43:18] <roycroft> i.e. they are required to pay out 80% of the premiums for actual health care
[22:43:30] <XXCoder> I have one of better insurances, I really need to use it soon before Nov
[22:43:31] <roycroft> the only way they can increase their profits under that requirement is to pay out more
[22:43:35] <roycroft> so that they can charge more
[22:43:54] <roycroft> the aca does ZERO to control the cost of health care
[22:43:57] <roycroft> and that is what is needed
[22:44:20] <XXCoder> yeah medicine and health bills is inssssane
[22:44:27] <XXCoder> $600 for epipen
[22:44:35] <XXCoder> in 90s it way WAY cheaoer
[22:44:45] <roycroft> i'm still several years away from qualifying for medicare
[22:44:53] <roycroft> i was hoping i could handle the premiums until then
[22:45:00] <roycroft> but i just ran out of time
[22:45:01] <XXCoder> im been qyualified my entire life
[22:45:32] <roycroft> not for medicare
[22:45:35] <roycroft> for medicaid, perhaps
[22:45:41] <XXCoder> nah i have both
[22:45:47] <roycroft> unless you were born at the age of 65
[22:45:57] <XXCoder> actually medicare stopped 3 years ago because of work
[22:46:02] <andypugh> Actually, I was wondeering about this today. Obama seemed to wanto socialised healthcare (we have that, to be honest, it’s great. You get ill, you get hurt, you get treated. That’s it.). From what I have heard the Republicans want to repeal all that (not actually sure where Trump sits). Now. surely the same divide _ought_ to exist about socialised fire brigades and policing? Is that actually an issue that folk argue?
[22:46:03] <andypugh> few years ago in the UK we didn’t have soclailised fire cover. You bough fire insurance, and put a plaque on your house. If the right brigade turned up, and you had their plaque, then they would rescue you and put out the fire. Surely this model fits the US sense of fairness and not being forced to pay?
[22:46:10] <XXCoder> roy, I'm deaf, im automically eligiable
[22:46:31] <roycroft> oh, right, there are some disability exceptions
[22:46:42] <roycroft> andypugh: that's an interesting point you raise
[22:46:51] <roycroft> i a moment i'll relate an anecdote
[22:49:41] <XXCoder> well one thing about current events is POE law is really powerful lately
[22:49:55] <XXCoder> making it hard to tell between real and fake nonsense
[22:50:17] <roycroft> a few years ago, in the state of georgia, there was a landowner who lived in a rural part of the state that was prone to wild fires
[22:50:24] <XXCoder> John Hurt dead
[22:50:38] <roycroft> the nearest city did not offer fire protection service to the rural area by default
[22:50:51] <roycroft> because it relied on property tax revenue to fund the fire brigade
[22:51:12] <roycroft> it did, however, offer fire protection service for a fee of $75/year to the rural folks
[22:51:29] <roycroft> this property owner refused to pay, because he was an anti-government, anti-tax tea party person
[22:51:33] <roycroft> so there was a fire
[22:51:51] <roycroft> the fire brigage responded and put out the fire on his property, even though he had not paid the fee
[22:52:04] <roycroft> they told him he had to start paying the fee or they would not do it again
[22:52:07] <roycroft> he still refused
[22:52:13] <roycroft> and there was another fire
[22:52:18] <roycroft> and they would not respond
[22:52:32] <roycroft> and that created an anti-government outrage
[22:52:39] <roycroft> because they were not doing their duty
[22:52:57] <roycroft> i've yet to have anyone explain the logic of that to me
[22:53:30] <XXCoder> typical tea party, want services free
[22:53:51] <XXCoder> or no goverment, just have goverment services
[22:53:58] <XXCoder> yeah dont ask me how that would work
[22:53:59] <roycroft> i disagree with, but respect the point of view that one is anti-government, does not want to pay taxes, but never expects any services from goverment
[22:54:21] <roycroft> but i utterly fail to understand the position of being anti-government, refusing to pay taxes, but demanding government services nevertheless
[22:54:51] <XXCoder> yeah no idea either
[22:55:06] <XXCoder> its like building roof and expecting it to stay up without walls or supports
[22:55:27] <XXCoder> remember the portland terrorists holding public property?
[22:55:43] <roycroft> that was nowhere near portland
[22:55:46] <XXCoder> one guy owed feds over million in grazing fees, way more than all others put together
[22:55:50] <roycroft> the malheur natioal wildlife refuge
[22:55:57] <roycroft> it's in eastern oregon
[22:55:58] <XXCoder> ah yea remembered portland sorry
[22:56:03] <roycroft> hours and hours from portland
[22:56:08] <roycroft> i'm in oregon
[22:56:12] <roycroft> i've been to burns many times
[22:56:16] <roycroft> and i've been to that refuge
[22:56:34] <XXCoder> used to live at vancouver, near to portland for many years
[22:56:44] <XXCoder> I still miss powells :(
[22:57:00] <roycroft> the locals wanted the bundys to go home
[22:57:21] <XXCoder> I remember one farmer complaing that bundys cut his fence to fed land
[22:57:35] <XXCoder> he didnt want to be part of it, and gladly paid grazing fees when needed
[22:57:42] <roycroft> it's a very conservative area, but the locals had developed a good relationship with the blm over the years
[22:57:52] <XXCoder> BLM?
[22:57:52] <roycroft> and the refuge is a vital part of the economy of burns
[22:57:59] <roycroft> bureau of land management
[22:58:02] <XXCoder> ahh yea
[22:58:06] <roycroft> the folks who manage the refuge
[22:58:39] <roycroft> when the bundys were occupying the refuge the local enconomy tanked
[22:59:59] <andypugh> OK, so in principle some people _can_ opt out of fire cover. That is, at least, consistent. (the rest isn’t, but that’s all about opinons and people, not law)
[23:00:11] <roycroft> not exactly
[23:00:11] <XXCoder> roy really? wow bet out come much hate for bundys
[23:00:31] <roycroft> this was an area that had no fire protection district
[23:00:37] <andypugh> Though, the devil in me would want to set his house back on fire when he refused to pay the fee :-)
[23:00:43] <roycroft> there are large psrts of this country like that
[23:01:01] <XXCoder> yeah thats why HUGE swaths of usa is red
[23:01:15] <XXCoder> tend to be conservate and thinly cover huge areas
[23:01:23] <XXCoder> larger cities tend to be more liberal
[23:01:59] <andypugh> The problem with democracy is people who are wrong :-)
[23:02:49] <roycroft> remember, we're 46 times as large as you, but have only 5 times your population
[23:02:50] <andypugh> (sub-text, all _my_ opinions are right)
[23:03:01] <roycroft> "you" meaning great britain, not the uk or england
[23:03:13] <XXCoder> canada heh population of one of states in usa, land larger than usa
[23:03:18] <roycroft> so i'm giving you a lot of rural land (most of scotland) in that comparison
[23:03:30] <XXCoder> to be fair large swaths of that is hard to live in
[23:03:56] <roycroft> which makes providing government services in those areas difficult
[23:04:11] <roycroft> the point being that we have large areas with very low population density
[23:04:25] <andypugh> roycroft: I think you probably do mean “UK” but you get points for being aware that they are different things,
[23:04:26] <roycroft> so things like fire protection services can be challenging
[23:04:34] <roycroft> no, i mean great britain
[23:04:46] <roycroft> i just looked up the land mass of great britain
[23:04:53] <roycroft> not great britain + northern ireland
[23:04:58] <roycroft> same with population
[23:05:27] <andypugh> Ah, OK, yesm you are right if you are talking geographical entities
[23:05:31] <roycroft> yes
[23:05:46] <roycroft> since population density is a geographical thing
[23:05:56] <roycroft> in the context of this conversation
[23:06:13] <roycroft> we're also a federation
[23:06:45] <roycroft> devolution nothwithstanding, the uk provides far more national services than local constituency services
[23:07:04] <roycroft> your budget provides for fire protection across england
[23:07:21] <roycroft> each of our fire districts has its own budget, and relies primarily on local tax revenue
[23:07:37] <roycroft> if you live in a tax revenue district that provides fire services, you have no choice
[23:07:40] <roycroft> which is the point i'm getting to
[23:07:57] <roycroft> if you lived in that city that went out to the rural area to put out the fire, you would not be able to opt out
[23:08:13] <roycroft> but if you lived in an area without fire service, you might be blessed with the option to opt in
[23:08:40] <roycroft> we have no concept of "universal fire protection services" in this country
[23:09:58] <roycroft> there are two counties in southern oregon that refuse to pass bonds to fund law enforcement
[23:10:24] <roycroft> as a result, there is no sheriff in either of those counties
[23:10:56] <roycroft> if there is an emergency, the state police are the only law enforcment who can respond, and the nearest state police officer is typically at least two hours away
[23:11:00] <andypugh> Great Britain is the big island, The British Isles as Britain and Ireland combined + smaller things like the Isle of Man (though you have to be very clear you are talking geograpy if you use it that way with Irish folk) and the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. And, techinally, I think, thses bits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories
[23:11:14] <roycroft> yes, i was talking about the big island
[23:11:20] <roycroft> england, scotland, and wales
[23:11:55] <roycroft> i believe that the figures i was using excluded the isle of man, but included the scottish islands, although i'm not completely certain about that
[23:12:28] <andypugh> Yeah, it’s like you need a Venn diagram
[23:12:56] <roycroft> or i could be a typical american and just say "england"
[23:13:04] <roycroft> and think it means all that stuff that's over by europe
[23:14:22] <andypugh> I am doing a German language course, they really don’t have words for all the categories.
[23:15:10] <andypugh> We really do seem to claim little bits of land all over the globe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories#/media/File:United_Kingdom_(%2Boverseas_territories_and_crown_dependencies)_in_the_World_(single_zoom).svg
[23:15:41] <XXCoder> sun never sets over uk
[23:15:52] <XXCoder> unless that one tiny island leaves UK
[23:16:09] <roycroft> the term "british isles" is perhaps the most unclear one
[23:16:13] <andypugh> Indeed, we rarher depend on the Indian Ocean one
[23:16:43] <roycroft> some think the northern scottish isles - shetland and orkney - are part of the british isles
[23:16:49] <roycroft> some don't
[23:17:00] <roycroft> and if you include shetland and orkney
[23:17:18] <roycroft> what then about the faroe islands?
[23:17:25] <roycroft> speaking strictly geographically, not politically
[23:17:30] <andypugh> Wikipedia seems quite clear that they count: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles
[23:18:02] <roycroft> they are generally accepted as part of the british isles, yes
[23:18:14] <andypugh> there is definit geographical debate about Rockall
[23:18:42] <roycroft> sometimes geographic terms are defined by political realities
[23:18:50] <andypugh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall
[23:19:01] <roycroft> what if the danes had retaines orkney and shetland?
[23:19:09] <roycroft> what if the danes had retained the outer hebrides?
[23:19:21] <roycroft> would they still be called british isles?
[23:19:30] <roycroft> or would the definition be more strict?
[23:19:41] <andypugh> You can walkunderwater from Rockall to Iceland and be less deep than walking to Scotland
[23:20:11] <roycroft> rockall is about as far from mainland britain as the faroes
[23:20:27] <andypugh> Further, really
[23:21:48] <andypugh> I think with a compass you would give it to Ireland, looking at underwater geography, it’s part of the Fareos.
[23:22:33] <roycroft> jersey is not part of the british archipelago - it's part of europe - but it's still considered a british isle
[23:24:02] <andypugh> Geographically that makes no sense. I wonder if there are two desinitions?
[23:24:36] <andypugh> have you seen this hilarious picture? https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2013/may/28/rockall-nick-hanckock-archive
[23:25:49] <roycroft> looks like a porta-potty in the middle of the ocean
[23:27:52] <andypugh> Yes. It’s all rather silly,
[23:28:15] <roycroft> should scotland declare independence, would rockall remain part of scotland?
[23:28:23] <andypugh> Anyway, time to sleep.
[23:28:29] <roycroft> or would the snp allow rockall to decide whether to leave or remain?
[23:28:57] <roycroft> yes, it's almost time to wake up in your part of the world
[23:29:26] <andypugh> I suspect they would claim it, but I have no idea how anyone would decide
[23:32:48] <roycroft> hmm
[23:32:55] <roycroft> metallic hydrogen was announced today
[23:35:28] <XXCoder> yep
[23:35:35] <XXCoder> pretty amazing
[23:37:42] <roycroft> it is
[23:38:20] <roycroft> and if it remains a metal at stp, which scientists thing it might, then there could be tremendous applications
[23:38:48] <XXCoder> I was wondering on applications, though I bet its hell of a compact storage for hyrogen power
[23:39:01] <roycroft> it could be a super super conductor
[23:39:24] <roycroft> making for almost lossless transmission of electricity
[23:39:40] <XXCoder> how cold would it need to be?>
[23:39:43] <roycroft> and it could be the best rocke fuel ever
[23:39:50] <roycroft> stp = standard temperature and pressure
[23:39:58] <roycroft> there is thinking that it might be stable at stp once made
[23:39:59] <XXCoder> ahh
[23:40:14] <XXCoder> hyrogen is extremely common
[23:40:17] <XXCoder> if that can be done..
[23:40:17] <roycroft> yes
[23:40:24] <roycroft> but it is hard to make metallic hydrogen
[23:40:36] <roycroft> although it would probably become easier
[23:40:53] <roycroft> one has to take solid hydrogen and compress it with 80 million psi of force
[23:41:04] <XXCoder> yeah, like other discovery of process to turn algae into crude oil same as one from earth
[23:41:13] <XXCoder> right now just small batches but later...
[23:45:35] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wivMSMxBNE wow