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[00:23:08] <XXCoder> Kevin`: interesting thanks
[00:24:26] <XXCoder> brass that expensive?
[01:54:46] <gameguard> hellow world
[01:55:29] <XXCoder> hollow world
[02:44:48] <Deejay> moin
[05:25:56] <jthornton> morning
[05:26:11] <XXCoder> hey
[05:26:55] <jthornton> should get the flue pipe finished today for the wood stove
[05:27:35] <XXCoder> fancy
[05:28:02] <jthornton> one more major project to insulate the ceiling
[05:28:32] <Tom_L> what's up?
[05:29:16] <jthornton> hooking up the wood stove in the new shop today
[05:32:20] <Tom_L> may move the logger to the other server this weekend
[05:32:40] <jthornton> cool, I need to get the conversion scrip going
[05:53:27] <JesusAlos> Hi
[05:53:54] <XXCoder> hey
[05:54:05] <JesusAlos> Does somebody know a linuxcnc robot application?
[05:54:41] <XXCoder> not me
[05:56:29] <jthornton> I think there is an example on the wiki maybe
[06:20:45] <JesusAlos> Maybe I need somebody to help in a integration linuxcnc in a robot.
[08:00:52] <nubcake> hey everyone
[08:58:21] <Loetmichel> hmm, i think my temperature sensors are defective. Just went out to get the groceries from my wifes car... in a tshirt and a 3/4 jeans... "oh, nice warm weather today, feels cozy!"... wife looks strange at me: "turn around, there is ice on that leaves over there in the street..."
[10:40:34] <MacGalempsy> morning
[10:52:54] <Duc_mobile> morning
[10:53:35] <Duc_mobile> Ive started to tear down the garage electrical since the house loan in now at the underwriters and shouldnt have a problem
[10:58:22] <MacGalempsy> Duc_mobile: what new circuits are you installing?
[11:00:42] <Duc_mobile> new house has a 30x40 shop versus the 2 car garage rental Im in now
[11:01:29] <MacGalempsy> ah, so you are taking stuff out of the rental to put in the new shop?
[11:01:59] <Duc_mobile> yea, just getting stuff ready for when its time to move
[11:02:22] <MacGalempsy> how long until the shop is done? will it be done before the main house?
[11:02:23] <Duc_mobile> we will probably close on the house around jan 17 which means alot of moving of equipment
[11:02:42] <Duc_mobile> shop is already on the property :D
[11:03:10] <MacGalempsy> sweet! how many big machines do you have to move?
[11:03:37] <Duc_mobile> Leblond 15x30 lathe, Bridgeport boss CNC, plasma table and a surface grinder
[11:03:45] <Duc_mobile> plus the support equipment
[11:04:13] <MacGalempsy> sounds like some heavy lifting. moving it all by yourself or using riggers?
[11:04:26] <Duc_mobile> ie 80 gallon air compressor, 8ft wide snap on box
[11:04:46] <Duc_mobile> renting a drop platform trailer from sunbelt and use some friends
[11:05:33] <roycroft> aah, beer-powered movers
[11:06:17] <archivist> refill after the move
[11:06:31] <Duc_mobile> yep. beer at the shop only after the fact
[11:06:39] <Duc_mobile> Ive learned my lessons in the past
[11:06:55] <MacGalempsy> fortunately my cnc is light enought that one of these worked out nicely
https://www.amazon.com/i-Liftequip-Manual-Stacker-Single-Pallets/dp/B00EPLUFYG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1483115833&sr=8-2&keywords=pallet+lift
[11:07:19] <MacGalempsy> the edm was a little too heavy, as my model only lifts up to 800lbs
[11:07:51] <Duc_mobile> I can move all of them with pallet jack or they are on wheels
[11:07:53] <roycroft> yes, it has to be the reward, not the motivator
[11:07:58] <Duc_mobile> here is the trailer for the moving
[11:07:59] <Duc_mobile> https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/items/1413/platform-lift-trailers/
[11:09:45] <Duc_mobile> hopefully the lathe can be lifted by the pallet jack from under the bed
[11:11:08] <MacGalempsy> stack some cinderblocks on the forks
[11:12:38] <Duc_mobile> I built a small steel box and just tested the sucker out. Worked perfect. HF 2.5 pallet jack to the rescue Leblond is 3500lbs
[11:14:52] <MacGalempsy> https://flic.kr/p/Pq3osq
[11:15:03] <MacGalempsy> that petg looks good.
[12:16:39] <IchGucksLive> hi all
[12:16:43] <IchGucksLive> back in germany
[12:16:53] <IchGucksLive> after a brief trip to the US
[12:35:42] <BeachBumPete> WooHoo Three and a half days of starting.....NOW!! LOL
[12:35:49] <BeachBumPete> off
[12:38:08] <Tom_L> surf's up
[12:38:20] <BeachBumPete> it is actually ;)
[12:38:34] <BeachBumPete> today was cold at like 58 degrees and it is quite windy
[12:38:54] <BeachBumPete> so the intercoastal was all white caps and the ocean was churnin'
[12:40:19] <IchGucksLive> BeachBumPete: indoor surfing
[12:41:26] <BeachBumPete> they have a big wave pool in Orlando where you can surf
[12:41:59] <IchGucksLive> at wterworld
[12:43:06] <IchGucksLive> BeachBumPete: are yoiuaround there
[12:43:22] <IchGucksLive> are you around there
[12:43:31] <BeachBumPete> hell yeah man orlando is like an hour and a half away
[12:43:32] <jdh> 84f here
[12:44:57] <IchGucksLive> maybe in may i will be in Osceola County
[12:45:16] <IchGucksLive> around Kissimmee
[12:46:00] <IchGucksLive> there is a eailroad depo that got powerd by HAAS
[12:46:06] <BeachBumPete> I just checked the weather apparently it is like 66 here right now
[12:46:34] <IchGucksLive> 24F here
[12:46:35] <BeachBumPete> Oh cool
[12:46:46] <BeachBumPete> Kissimmee is right there in Orlando
[12:46:55] <BeachBumPete> like I said about an hour and a half away
[12:47:06] <BeachBumPete> just northwest of here
[12:47:23] <IchGucksLive> il keep you up if and when we can meet
[12:48:18] <BeachBumPete> OK cool man...
[13:09:35] <IchGucksLive> im off
[13:47:57] <Jymmm> Whatcha think? leather apron...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SUiiGZ6dxc
[13:48:48] <Tom_L> kill a cow, save some cotton
[13:50:28] <Tom_L> i wouldn't like it, it would seem stiff to work in
[13:50:45] <Jymmm> I'm thinking split leather or cowhide
[13:51:47] <Jymmm> http://www.harborfreight.com/split-leather-welding-apron-45193.html
[13:54:24] <Tom_L> might be ok for welding...
[13:54:34] <Tom_L> don't do alot of that myself anymore
[13:55:21] <Jymmm> I have some cowhide, but I think I might find some fabric and try that first for size/shape
[13:55:45] <Jymmm> ...then use the fabric one as a template fo cowhide one
[14:17:14] <andypugh> Well, that’s forced my hand. The LinuxCNC controller that got hacked yesterday wouldn’t reboot today.
[14:17:31] <JT-Shop> wow
[14:17:42] <andypugh> Could be coincidence.
[14:17:59] <andypugh> But, I was going to do a clean reinstall anyway
[14:20:21] <andypugh> But: I am not doing very well at persuading it to boot from USB.
[14:21:35] <andypugh> I did rather want to be machining today, not messing with computers.
[14:27:51] <JT-Shop> I did some work on my server and now it won't connect to the lan...
[14:28:15] <andypugh> Computers: Making life easier.
[14:32:56] <pcw_mesa> hacked?
[14:34:29] <roycroft> http://salem.craigslist.org/tls/5899847311.html
[14:34:33] <roycroft> that looks interesting
[14:34:42] <roycroft> but a bit overpriced, as is all used machinery around here
[14:35:14] <andypugh> pcw_home: Yes, rather alarmingly someone took over the PC with Remote Desktop while I was running a job.
[14:35:51] <pcw_mesa> Yow
[14:36:27] <roycroft> i would not make a controller computer like that accessable via the internet
[14:36:39] <sync_> #yolo
[14:36:49] <roycroft> a lot of my machines i put on my local network, but give them a dummy gateway, so they don't know how to route to the outside
[14:36:57] <roycroft> i also acl their internal ips on my firewall
[14:37:49] <cradek> andypugh: what on earth
[14:38:07] <roycroft> andypugh's experience sounds pretty scary
[14:38:15] <andypugh> It was a bit alarming
[14:38:42] <andypugh> They didn’t get chance to do much before I yanked the etherney cable out.
[14:38:50] <cradek> are you talking about a debian machine?
[14:39:09] <andypugh> The minimised touchy and opened Firefox. And that was all they got the chance to do.
[14:39:30] <cradek> what kind of remote desktop thing is on it?
[14:39:44] <roycroft> no touchy my touchy!
[14:39:54] <roycroft> probably vnc
[14:39:59] <andypugh> cradek: 10.04 _and_ I had set up Remote Desktop to not need a password as that was the only way that my Mac could connect. And then I forgot it was even activated.
[14:40:11] <cradek> ouch
[14:40:35] <andypugh> But, I guess that they had to have got into my WiFi somehow (or, potentially, the Homeplug network)
[14:40:36] <cradek> and that port is accessible from the outside?
[14:40:39] <roycroft> if you don't need your linuxcnc machine to talk to the outside world, just change the gateway address to not your router
[14:40:58] <roycroft> your internal network can still talk to it
[14:41:27] <cradek> yeah maybe wifi... surely an external router uses nat (I don't know what Homeplug is)
[14:43:36] <andypugh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug is how I get the network into the workshop
[14:44:36] <roycroft> aah, eop
[14:45:06] <cradek> > The HomePlug specification requires that all devices are set to a default out-of-box password
[14:45:15] <cradek> have you done the obvious thing?
[14:45:55] <cradek> > enabling encryption requires a computer running Windows
[14:46:00] <cradek> good god I have to stop reading
[14:46:55] <sync_> yeah plc is a joke
[14:47:00] <sync_> especially as it produces a lot of emi
[14:47:17] <andypugh> Well.. As I have to be careful which plug in my house i use to get through to the garage, there can’t be more than 2 houses that sttand any chance of getting into that network.
[14:47:59] <andypugh> Anyway… How big a USB stick do I need to make a Wheezy ISO>
[14:48:01] <roycroft> does that homeplug stuff fail when on the other side of a split phase power setup?
[14:48:10] <sync_> I would just run wifi or a cable :D
[14:48:40] <andypugh> WiFi won’t reach. Cable is tricky as it’s not over my land the whole way.
[14:48:51] <roycroft> wifi can reach
[14:48:54] <cradek> lazor beams
[14:48:57] <cradek> pew pew
[14:49:03] <roycroft> but it might take a bit of fiddling
[14:49:34] <roycroft> i've done wifi over 40km with a pair of 2 degree yagis
[14:49:37] <andypugh> Well, I used to have an Apple Airport and a hacked router doing bridging, and then it reached. But it was fragile.
[14:49:46] <roycroft> lasers fail when it rains
[14:49:49] <roycroft> so they fail in the uk
[14:50:04] <roycroft> and where i live
[14:50:57] <sync_> nah they don't
[14:50:59] <roycroft> you need directional antennae for bridging that distance
[14:51:01] <roycroft> yes they do
[14:51:08] <sync_> but they require you to register the link
[14:51:11] <sync_> neg
[14:51:19] <sync_> I have some laser links running very stable
[14:51:50] <roycroft> when i worked for a telco we bought a company who liked to string up temporary laser links
[14:52:04] <roycroft> we thought it might be useful while we were going through provisioning hell with the ilec
[14:52:16] <roycroft> but we found they failed in rainy weather too much
[14:52:29] <roycroft> fortuantely that company's other assets were our primary interest
[14:52:44] <roycroft> we retained their engineering at first, as we had no experience with the laser links
[14:52:50] <andypugh> cradek: I forgot to mention yesterday, that brass thing of mine was machined inside and outside by G71 (remap version)
[14:53:07] <roycroft> we were doing relatively (at the time) high bandwidth links though
[14:53:10] <roycroft> 100Mb and up
[14:56:25] <Nick-Shop> using halscope - can I check the sine & cosine output from the resolvers?
[15:00:11] <andypugh> No
[15:00:32] <andypugh> They don’t ever appear in HAL.
[15:00:46] <andypugh> You could use a real scope. (I have been known to do so)
[15:01:08] <andypugh> But, I thought it was all working at the Resolver level?
[15:02:27] <Nick-Shop> I still don't have spindle sync - no G95 function
[15:04:09] <andypugh> But you have index-enable working, and spindle-position counting up?
[15:06:35] <Nick-Shop> yes - x & z counts were reverse so I had to swap sine wires to get them to count in the right direction
[15:07:31] <Nick-Shop> do I also have to swap cosine wires? does sine/ designate + or -?
[15:08:14] <andypugh> You shouldn’t need to swap _any_ wires, you can do it wth the scales.
[15:09:17] <andypugh> Is your resolver velocity correct? Is it connected to motion.spindle-speed-in ?
[15:09:18] <Nick-Shop> didn't change resolver count direction - just got runaways
[15:09:32] <andypugh> The counts don’t matter
[15:10:00] <andypugh> The position and velocity scales can both be used to invert the outputs.
[15:10:17] <Nick-Shop> oh - should I post the ini and hal files?
[15:10:34] <andypugh> But, if you invert the position in software you also need to invert the output scale of the analogue output.
[15:10:44] <andypugh> Oyherwise you will obviously get a runaway.
[15:11:16] <andypugh> No, just tell me is motion.spindle-speed-in is showing the right number, and the right sign.
[15:13:11] <Nick-Shop> I've been trying all of that and getting nowhere - I know I'm missing on something - just don't know where
[15:13:12] <Nick-Shop> I'll go turn the machine on Have to shut down the Okuma
[15:22:51] * JT-Shop2 wonders if nick has a wide enough near for at speed
[15:22:56] <Nick-Shop> motion.spindle-speed-in seems to be a counter and is going - for m3 spindle
[15:23:19] <andypugh> That’s not right
[15:23:28] <andypugh> What is it connected to?
[15:24:02] <Nick-Shop> i know - what do I do about it -no dynamite please
[15:24:16] <andypugh> Well, what is it connected to?
[15:24:53] <Nick-Shop> pin motion.spindle-speed-in havent got a clue :-)
[15:25:26] <Nick-Shop> hal info?
[15:25:33] <andypugh> Well, look at the HAL file and find out?
[15:25:41] <Nick-Shop> ok
[15:28:51] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q - 1um CNC lathe/grinder with air bearings
[15:29:42] <andypugh> I think I have seen that. In fact I am there in the comments :-)
[15:30:04] <SpeedEvil> 'making an internal abrasive wheel is very easy if you have a waterjet cutter'
[15:31:07] <andypugh> Don’t you have one?
[15:39:08] <MacGalempsy> there is a sweet one for sale near Dallas. only $6500
[15:39:46] <Nick-Shop> only one I found net spindle-velocity motion.spindle-speed-in <= hm2_5i23.0.resolver.03.velocity
[15:40:16] <gregcnc> ahh, that time of the year where I change the year above my to do list
[15:49:38] <Nick-Shop> <andypugh> I found 1 line #422 in the hal file
http://pastebin.com/uaXeVMfH
[16:01:24] <andypugh> Looks right. But you say that the value looks like a counter rather than showinf spindle revs-per-second?
[16:03:48] <roycroft> i'm having thoughts about converting my mill-drill to cnc again
[16:04:07] <roycroft> i was pondering it before, but never did it because i want the ability to do manual machining still
[16:04:31] <roycroft> but should i convert it, what do folks generally do for simple milling tasks?
[16:04:36] <roycroft> use a pendant?
[16:04:53] <roycroft> write some g-code for simple tasks like surfacing?
[16:05:18] <MacGalempsy> set the feedrate, then hold the arrow key?
[16:05:51] <roycroft> i want to be able to toss a hunk of metal in the vise, square it up, and drill a hole in it without going to a cad program and drawing it first
[16:06:03] <andypugh> roycroft: NativeCAM?
[16:06:08] <MacGalempsy> is there a quill?
[16:06:32] <roycroft> there is a quill
[16:06:43] <andypugh> roycroft:
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/40-subroutines-and-ngcgui/31659-nativecam-is-features-renamed?limitstart=0
[16:07:45] <MacGalempsy> sounds like having a couple of HAL/INI files might work out (one for 2d and one for 3d)?
[16:08:22] <roycroft> thank you, andypugh
[16:08:24] <roycroft> i'll look into that
[16:08:47] <roycroft> and yeah, i was thinking i could essentially "store some macros" for doing simple tasks
[16:09:02] <roycroft> i make drawings for anything interesting already
[16:09:09] <roycroft> so it's not that i'm trying to avoid that
[16:09:37] <roycroft> it's just not necessary sometimes
[16:09:58] <roycroft> my original thinking was to get another mill, and use the current one to make parts to convert the new one
[16:10:06] <roycroft> thus leaving me with a manual and a cnc mill
[16:10:10] <MacGalempsy> roycroft: s there enough room for a second machine?
[16:10:18] <roycroft> but time/space/etc. make that challenging
[16:10:19] <MacGalempsy> :)
[16:10:20] <roycroft> there could be
[16:10:28] <roycroft> but that space could also be used for something different
[16:10:41] <MacGalempsy> how big do you need?
[16:10:48] <roycroft> when real estate is precious it seems better to have two different machines than two of the same
[16:10:50] <andypugh> dd-ing the ISO from LinuxCNC to a USB stick is leaving me with a stick that none of my OS-es can read (Linux, Mac, Windows). Any idea what the problem might be?
[16:11:17] <roycroft> not that big, although i'd eventually like to get a bridgeport or clone with a 39" table
[16:11:17] <MacGalempsy> roycroft: I have one of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Light-Machines-BENCHMAN-VMC4000-CNC-Milling-Machine-T86312-/282273862973?hash=item41b8d5553d:g:suQAAOSwtnpXqQmu
[16:11:36] <roycroft> andypugh: i have had mixed luck making bootable usb sticks
[16:11:50] <roycroft> if you have a mac handy, the most reliable way i've done it is this:
[16:11:54] <roycroft> insert usb stick in mac
[16:12:04] <roycroft> let it mount
[16:12:07] <roycroft> open diskutil
[16:12:12] <roycroft> unmount the filesystem with diskutil
[16:12:15] <MacGalempsy> sorry im not into gettting stuck
[16:12:18] <roycroft> go into the partition manager
[16:12:30] <roycroft> repartion as a single partition
[16:12:34] <roycroft> make it all free space
[16:12:38] <andypugh> What format?
[16:12:39] <roycroft> not ufs or fat or hfs
[16:12:42] <roycroft> free space
[16:12:54] <roycroft> then dd the iso image to the raw device
[16:13:03] <roycroft> i.e. /dev/rdisk8, not /dev/disk8
[16:13:15] <roycroft> dd if=image.iso of=/dev/rdisk8 bs=64k
[16:13:15] <andypugh> dd … of=rdisk1 ?
[16:13:29] <andypugh> OK, worth a try
[16:13:37] <roycroft> i leave it to you to determine what device is your usb stick
[16:13:44] <roycroft> please don't get it wrong
[16:13:48] <roycroft> dd can be very destructive :)
[16:13:55] <andypugh> disk1 (DiskUtil tells you pretty clearly)
[16:14:09] <roycroft> ok
[16:14:33] <roycroft> anyway, i just did exactly that yesterday making a freenas bootable usb stick
[16:14:37] <roycroft> and it worked brilliantly
[16:14:49] <roycroft> but i had to do the partition creating thing first
[16:14:53] <andypugh> Which MacOS?
[16:15:04] <roycroft> 10.9.x
[16:15:21] <andypugh> Hmm, I am on 10.12
[16:15:21] <roycroft> i'm not good at keeping up on that stuff
[16:15:26] <roycroft> i'm bad bad mac fanboi
[16:15:38] <roycroft> i just use stuff until it no longer works
[16:15:44] <roycroft> i've never once queued up at the mac store
[16:16:11] <roycroft> hopefully it will work for you
[16:16:21] <andypugh> Yeah, I upgraded my mum’s Mac at christmas beause a load of stuff wasn’t working any more. She is not, so far, convinced.
[16:16:44] <roycroft> brb
[16:19:16] <andypugh> roycroft: No option to partition it…
[16:20:14] <roycroft> huh?
[16:20:27] <roycroft> you unmount the filesystem
[16:20:30] <roycroft> then click on the device
[16:20:38] <roycroft> you should be able to click on the partition tab then
[16:20:48] * roycroft fumbles for a thumb drive
[16:20:51] <andypugh> Let me try an older OS..
[16:20:52] <roycroft> maybe they changed it again
[16:21:01] <roycroft> mac os is getting like windows in that respect
[16:21:12] <roycroft> it changes things just for the sake of changing things
[16:22:03] <roycroft> let me make sure my memory is not failing
[16:22:09] * roycroft just found a thumb drive
[16:22:53] <roycroft> yeah that works
[16:23:01] <roycroft> stick it in, open diskutil
[16:23:09] <roycroft> right click on the mounted filesystem and unmount
[16:23:21] <roycroft> then left click on the thumb drive, click on partition
[16:23:36] <roycroft> then use the dropdown that says "current" and select "1 partition"
[16:25:06] <andypugh> It all works as you describe in 10.9 on my Macbook.
[16:25:14] <andypugh> Less so in 10.12
[16:25:42] <Deejay> gn8
[16:26:01] * roycroft is happy to not have "upgraded" his mbp to 10.>9
[16:26:22] <roycroft> there may be a way in 10.12
[16:26:32] <roycroft> but 10.12 may also want you to use the app store to do anything at all
[16:26:38] <roycroft> and give apple $$ for the privilege of doing so
[16:27:11] <roycroft> i'm glad you had a 10.9 machine available though
[16:27:44] * roycroft notes that his mbp, running 10.9, is his "new" mac
[16:28:13] <andypugh> There is the command-line diskutil still
[16:28:25] <roycroft> my mac pro is still on 10.8
[16:28:52] <roycroft> because that's the latest version that will run on my mac pro (vintage 2008)
[16:29:10] <roycroft> good that command line diskutil is still there
[16:29:19] <andypugh> Have you tried compiling LinuxCNC for a Mac? It might not be that hard, with a bit of conditional complation in spots.
[16:29:24] <roycroft> i haven't
[16:29:33] <roycroft> i have built it on debian
[16:29:41] <roycroft> sadly wheezy
[16:29:49] <roycroft> since it's supposedly very broken on jessie
[16:30:01] <andypugh> Somebody was having a go a while back, don’t know how he got on.
[16:30:16] <roycroft> i have it running in a wheezy virtual machine on my macbook pro
[16:30:22] <roycroft> i don't think that counts though
[16:30:45] <andypugh> You can run Jessie with uspace. There is even a buildbot.
[16:30:58] <andypugh> That might actually be the sensible way for me to go
[16:31:01] <roycroft> i might give that a go
[16:31:12] <roycroft> i want to be done with wheezy
[16:31:33] <roycroft> while i don't update my macs that often, i like to keep my servers fairly up to date
[16:32:43] <andypugh> roycroft: Sadly, once again I get to the end of dd and get “The disk you inserted is not readable by this computer”
[16:33:34] <roycroft> weird
[16:33:43] <roycroft> wait
[16:33:52] <andypugh> Worse than wierd. Very annoying. I have parts to make
[16:33:52] <roycroft> it probably won't be mountable/readable
[16:33:55] <roycroft> but it should be bootable
[16:33:58] <roycroft> have you tried booting it?
[16:34:03] <andypugh> No.
[16:34:08] <roycroft> give that a go
[16:34:16] <andypugh> But all my other bootable ones are also readable.
[16:34:22] <roycroft> you made a livecd image, didn't you?
[16:34:47] <roycroft> i promise, i used that exact procedure yesterday with a freenas .iso
[16:35:36] <roycroft> there may be another way to do it such that it's both bootable and mountable by mac os or whatever
[16:35:42] <roycroft> but what i did defintely booted
[16:35:45] <andypugh> I will try it. But the PC is refusing to boot from a different stick that I _can_ read, so I suspect that the two unreadable ones are unlikely to work better.
[16:35:58] <roycroft> assuming your .iso is not corrupt
[16:36:11] <andypugh> I will be back. Possily quite soon, it’s cold out there.
[16:36:21] <roycroft> is there a bootable operating system on a hard disk in the pc?
[16:36:37] <roycroft> i've found some pc bioses are really stupid
[16:36:41] <andypugh> not any more
[16:36:42] <roycroft> you set the boot priority
[16:36:49] <roycroft> and make the usb stick the highest priority
[16:36:55] <roycroft> and the hard drive(s) lower priority
[16:36:59] <andypugh> Yes, done all that
[16:37:03] <roycroft> but if a hard drive is bootable it will boot from that all the time
[16:37:10] <roycroft> even though the usb stick is highest priority
[16:37:31] <roycroft> i've had to remove the hard drive, dd /dev/zero the beginning of it, and reinstall it in order to get the usb stick to boot
[16:37:39] <andypugh> No, it definitely fails to boot from the sticj rather than failing to boot from the SSD
[16:37:42] <roycroft> i don't know your situation
[16:37:45] <roycroft> nor what you've done
[16:37:54] <roycroft> i'm just throwing things out that i've experienced
[16:38:07] <roycroft> ok
[16:38:18] <andypugh> Well, I currently have a brand-new SSD in the machine, it won;t be booting from that.
[16:38:25] <roycroft> i should hope not
[16:39:37] <andypugh> Let me try my handful of USB sticks
[16:39:37] <roycroft> there have been times when making a bootable usb stick has been so frustrating for me that i dig out a portable dvd-r and burn the .iso to a dvd
[16:39:46] <roycroft> i hate doing that, because it's wasteful
[16:40:12] <andypugh> My only DVD drive is IDE
[16:40:21] <roycroft> that's no fun
[16:40:35] <roycroft> i do have a portable dvd drive, because computers don't come with dvd drives any more
[16:40:45] <roycroft> usb is universal though
[16:40:55] <roycroft> slow, ugly, weird, but universal
[16:40:58] <andypugh> Maybe I need to learn how to configure PXE?
[16:41:20] <roycroft> if you have a tftp server handy that might be a way to go
[16:41:29] <roycroft> bootp/tftp
[16:41:31] <roycroft> you need both
[16:49:59] <andypugh> no luck. I have three USb sticks that won’t boot my CNC machine.
[16:50:08] <roycroft> bummer
[16:50:34] <andypugh> No real idea what to do.
[16:50:49] <andypugh> Maybe try the standard Precise ISO?
[16:50:54] <roycroft> you can try netbooting, if you have a machine that can run the right daemons
[16:51:02] <roycroft> but it can be a bit tricky getting everything working
[16:51:34] <andypugh> And you think a guy who can’t even make a USB stick stands any chance?
[16:51:49] <roycroft> anything can happen
[16:51:52] <andypugh> I just want to machine parts <wail!>
[16:52:07] <roycroft> i'm just puzzled that the usb sticks aren't working
[16:52:20] <roycroft> and you did use /dev/rdisk1, not /dev/disk1, right?
[16:52:36] <andypugh> Yes
[16:52:39] <roycroft> you need to be root to talk to /dev/rdisk1
[16:52:45] <roycroft> ok, just making sure
[16:52:51] <roycroft> that's a common mistake
[16:52:58] <andypugh> And I tried doing it from the Linux VM too
[16:53:28] <roycroft> have you confirmed that your .iso is good?
[16:53:39] <roycroft> try booting a vm from the .iso image
[16:57:06] <gregcnc> because i don't know any better i use unetbootin to create bootable USB on a winduhs box even
[17:24:44] <BeachBumPete> jeez man if Andy can't figure it out there IS a problem
[17:31:04] <JT-Shop2> got heat in the new shop yippie
[17:36:44] <andypugh> BeachBumPete: I can be good at solving problems I want to solve, but this is not a problem I ever wanted. It has yet to fire my :this is a challenge” circuits
[17:37:56] <BeachBumPete> I can relate to that...there are LOTS of problems in my life I just don't want to solve LOL
[17:39:57] <andypugh> The ISO seems to be viable in a VM, though.
[18:04:56] <andypugh> I don’t want to play this game any more. The Ubuntu ISO is just as strange/
[18:05:23] <andypugh> Maybe tomorrow I spend buying USB sticks from as many places as possible?
[18:10:35] <Tom_L> did you try using rufus to make the stick bootable?
[18:12:03] <Tom_L> https://rufus.akeo.ie/
[18:20:05] <XXCoder> hey guys
[18:20:24] <XXCoder> what wirres will be fine for nema23 steppers? 14 gauge?
[18:23:40] <XXCoder> 18 or 20 ga according to one forum
[18:24:43] <XXCoder> mine maxes out at 3A
[18:25:09] <XXCoder> 22 ga is rated at 7A and 16 ohm per 1,000 feet
[18:25:34] <XXCoder> since I plan maybe 5 feet at most it will work
[18:26:59] <roycroft> maybe buy a usb cdrom drive, andypugh?
[18:27:11] <roycroft> since the usb memory sticks are so unforgiving
[18:28:26] <roycroft> xxcoder: most of the "standard stepper motor cables" i've seen are 4 conductor 18ga stranded with shield
[18:28:53] <XXCoder> chinese steppers dont have those
[18:29:18] <andypugh> roycroft: Might be a plan, actually
[18:29:43] <roycroft> i don't know what it is about usb memory sticks
[18:29:57] <roycroft> but they can be extremely fiddly to make bootable
[18:30:14] <XXCoder> depends on few factors
[18:30:23] <roycroft> i always give them a go
[18:30:41] <roycroft> but like having the portable dvd drive as a fallback for when i get frustrated and tired of wasting time
[18:31:00] <andypugh> I have already lost a day
[18:31:04] <roycroft> yeah
[18:31:17] <roycroft> although it is the end of the year
[18:31:26] <roycroft> you should be drinking heavily instead of working :)
[18:31:38] <andypugh> This is my hobby
[18:32:22] <andypugh> I deliberately arranged to spend my 50th birthday at home by myself to get more workshop time.
[18:32:35] <XXCoder> thats why I was asking about gauges and stuff, im finally working on my cnc router
[18:32:40] <roycroft> i wish my formula had worked for you
[18:32:50] <roycroft> iirc i never got linuxcnc to boot off a usb drive
[18:32:58] <roycroft> er, usb memory stick
[18:33:11] <roycroft> i know i have a cdrom burned with it
[18:33:28] <roycroft> so it might be the nature of that particular iso image
[18:33:30] <andypugh> I have done it a few times, but not regularly enough to remember the recipe
[18:34:07] <roycroft> does it involve standing on one foot, facing a particular direction, and making some kind of incantation after sacrificing something?
[18:34:13] <sync_> I just dd'ed the image onto a drive and it worked...
[18:34:18] <XXCoder> chicken. its always chicked
[18:34:27] <roycroft> well
[18:34:44] <roycroft> it could be some other kind of critter
[18:34:50] <XXCoder> nah
[18:35:04] <roycroft> but anything that isn't a cow or a pig tastes like chicken, doesn't it?
[18:35:12] <roycroft> so calling it a chicken is close enough
[18:36:08] <roycroft> just because i'm now curious i'm going to try to make a bootable linuxcnc memory stick in a bit
[19:12:46] <andypugh> sync_: What OS did you use?
[19:13:04] <andypugh> Maybe I need to use a real Linux box or something?
[19:13:19] <andypugh> Also, exactly which USB key?
[19:13:29] <dioz> bsd > linux
[19:13:32] <dioz> just sayin
[19:14:06] <jdh> bsdCNC?
[19:14:24] <dioz> once you go slack you'll never go back
[19:15:00] <dioz> OpenBSD eve5.emopart.com 6.0 GENERIC#26 amd64
[19:15:07] <jdh> I still have SLS and slackware floppies
[19:15:11] <sync_> andypugh: no exact key, I have done it on a few
[19:15:21] <sync_> idk, I don't have a mac so eh
[19:15:39] <dioz> mac? poor guy =/
[19:16:02] <dioz> might as well take your money and throw it directly in the garbage
[19:27:13] <roycroft> macs work fine
[19:27:41] <roycroft> just because you might not be able to use one does not make them rubbish
[19:31:08] <roycroft> andypugh: if you're about, which iso are you trying to use?
[19:32:10] <roycroft> in lieu of a response, i'm downloading 2.7.8 right now to try to make bootable on a usb stick
[19:52:23] <roycroft> andypugh: if you're about (and i know it's past midnight in your world, so hopefully you log if you're not)
[19:52:40] <roycroft> i just followed the procedure i gave you previously and was able to boot off the usb stick
[19:52:52] <roycroft> with a fresh download of 2.7.8
[19:53:11] <roycroft> i don't know if that's good news or bad news for you
[19:53:49] <roycroft> # file linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso
[19:53:49] <roycroft> linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data 'Debian wheezy 20150905-22:03 ' (bootable)
[19:53:56] <andypugh> I am using the latest download from LinuxCNC
[19:54:01] <roycroft> dd if=linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso of=/dev/rdisk20 bs=64k
[19:54:15] <roycroft> i also got the "disk is not readable" error when the write finished
[19:54:25] <andypugh> dd if=Downloads/ubuntu-12.04.5-desktop-i386.iso of=/dev/rdisk1
[19:54:26] <roycroft> yet it did boot
[19:54:49] <roycroft> oh, you're using something different
[19:55:19] <andypugh> I also tried: dd if=Downloads/linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso of=/dev/rdisk1 bs=1m
[19:55:26] <roycroft> try: file Downloads/ubuntu-12.04.5-desktop-i386.iso
[19:55:35] <roycroft> and see if it claims to be a bootable cd-rom image
[19:55:41] <roycroft> as i did above
[19:55:59] <roycroft> also, shasum -a 256 Downloads/ubuntu-12.04.5-desktop-i386.iso
[19:56:13] <roycroft> compare that to the checksum on the site from where you downloaded it
[19:56:18] <andypugh> I checked tne MD5sum, matched
[19:56:24] <roycroft> ok
[19:56:32] <roycroft> where did you get that?
[19:56:36] <roycroft> from linuxcnc.org?
[19:57:20] <andypugh> The linuxcnc one was from liniuxCNC, the ubuntu one was from ubuntu
[19:57:41] <roycroft> ok
[19:57:51] <roycroft> i don't mind giving ubunto a go, for testing
[19:57:57] <roycroft> since i seem to have an environment that works
[19:58:15] <andypugh> It’s feeling like a problen for tomorrow at the moment
[19:58:30] <roycroft> well it's already tomorrow for you :)
[19:58:57] <andypugh> (though I am wondering how many putative new users gave up hours ago.. )
[19:59:10] <cradek> you're sure /dev/rdisk1 is the usb raw disk device?
[19:59:27] <cradek> the thing you can normally read a partition table from, etc
[19:59:36] <andypugh> It flashes the led while I am writing to ot
[20:00:09] <cradek> ok that's a good sign, but could you be writing to a partition of the "disk" instead of the "disk"?
[20:00:12] <andypugh> And gives an “unreadable disk” error synchronised with dd finishing
[20:00:17] <cradek> I'm asking because I don't know
[20:00:23] <cradek> weird
[20:00:39] <cradek> is it maybe mounted when you write to it?
[20:00:48] <roycroft> are you using a 32-bit or 64-bit version of ubuntu?
[20:00:50] <cradek> the mac sure might auto-mount whatever you plug in
[20:01:09] <roycroft> we went through a procedure of unmounting and repartitioning it, cradek
[20:01:12] <andypugh> no, I can’t write to it when mounted
[20:01:17] <cradek> ok
[20:01:31] <cradek> you shouldn't need to partition it - that gets nuked by the hybrid image
[20:01:45] <andypugh> Also, I fail just as badly using the Wheezy VM.
[20:01:45] <roycroft> it gets partitioned as free space
[20:01:50] <roycroft> that wipes out the existing partition table
[20:01:56] <roycroft> i don't know that it should need to be done
[20:01:57] <cradek> mac instructions are conspicuously missing from our docs...
[20:02:04] <roycroft> but it works more reliably on mac os if one does it
[20:02:54] <roycroft> i am downloading that version of ubuntu right now
[20:03:08] <cradek> wait I thought this was the linuxcnc image
[20:03:17] <cradek> the ubuntu iso might not be a hybrid
[20:03:17] <roycroft> he's tried both
[20:03:25] <cradek> if it's not a hybrid image you can only boot it from cd
[20:03:46] <andypugh> This is the strange part. I can download the Wheezy .iso and make a fully-working VM in VMWare, but then if I make a USB inside that VM from the same .iso, no dice.
[20:03:49] <cradek> last I knew, they have a special application that mangles the iso to make it bootable from usb
[20:04:03] <roycroft> hdiutil mkhybrid
[20:04:12] <roycroft> that would do it if it's not a hybrid image
[20:04:19] <roycroft> but the linuxcnc image is a hybrid image already
[20:04:25] <cradek> can't confirm or deny that :-)
[20:04:33] <cradek> but yes the linuxcnc one is ready for dd to a usb stick
[20:04:39] <roycroft> 2# file linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso
[20:04:39] <roycroft> linuxcnc-2.7-wheezy.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data 'Debian wheezy 20150905-22:03 ' (bootable)
[20:05:01] <roycroft> this is the problem
[20:05:08] <roycroft> i gave andypugh a procedure for doing it
[20:05:14] <roycroft> we're each using the same version of mac os x
[20:05:21] <roycroft> it fails for him
[20:05:22] <cradek> what is the problem?
[20:05:24] <roycroft> it works for me
[20:05:28] <roycroft> it does not boot for him
[20:05:30] <roycroft> it boots for me
[20:05:31] <cradek> oh
[20:05:42] <cradek> then maybe his booting computer is bad
[20:05:50] <roycroft> i get the same error after the write
[20:05:51] <roycroft> but it does boot
[20:06:05] <roycroft> yes, i'm thinking that it has something to do with the pc
[20:06:31] <roycroft> sadly, i can write an image to a usb stick and test it faster than i can download the image
[20:06:39] <roycroft> but the ubuntu image is almost down downloading
[20:07:25] <andypugh> Well, I only formatted the USB on OSX 10.9. I did the dd on OSX10.12. I could try doing the dd on the Macbook, but the battery was low so I didn’t try that. It seemed like too subtle a wrinkle
[20:07:45] <roycroft> it should not matter
[20:07:48] <cradek> you'd think dd would be dd
[20:07:56] <roycroft> as cradek said, dd should overwrite everything
[20:08:21] <roycroft> the rub may be that mac os does something stupid about deciding where to start writing, even when specifying the raw device
[20:08:37] <roycroft> that's the only reason i can think of that repartitioning to make it all free space might have any effect
[20:09:14] <roycroft> if there's a partition table, block 0 of /dev/rdiskx might be different than block 0 of /dev/rdiskx on a virgin disk
[20:09:18] <roycroft> it should not be
[20:09:25] <roycroft> and it would piss me off it it were the case
[20:09:31] <roycroft> but this *is* mac os we're talking about
[20:10:06] <cradek> <roycroft> just because you might not be able to use one does not make them rubbish
[20:10:15] <roycroft> correct
[20:10:30] <roycroft> there is no inherent contradiction there
[20:10:39] <cradek> heh sorry
[20:10:47] <andypugh> I am also using Linux and getting little success
[20:11:08] <sync_> are you writing to the raw blockdevice?
[20:11:20] <roycroft> just a requirement to know the idiosyncracies
[20:11:31] <andypugh> In Mac, yes. In Linux, who knows?
[20:11:47] <roycroft> as i have said, and i know this can be confusing, i'm not a good apple fanboi
[20:11:54] <andypugh> Mac is rdisk1, Linux was sdb
[20:11:57] <cradek> check dmesg
[20:12:01] <roycroft> i'm capable of using their products while still being objectively critical of them
[20:12:06] <cradek> if it says sdb appears when you plug it in, it's sdb
[20:12:20] <andypugh> Yes, that was what I did
[20:12:46] <roycroft> diskutil list is also useful
[20:12:48] <cradek> if that one still doesn't boot, the problem is somewhere you haven't looked yet
[20:12:52] <andypugh> tail -f /var/log/kern(tab) in fact
[20:12:57] <roycroft> /dev/disk20
[20:12:57] <roycroft> #: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
[20:12:57] <roycroft> 0: FDisk_partition_scheme *16.0 GB disk20
[20:12:57] <roycroft> 1: 0x17 1.2 GB disk20s1
[20:13:05] <cradek> bad usb stick, or the booting pc is bogus or has wrong bios settings
[20:13:11] <roycroft> that's from after i scribbled linuxcnc on a usb stick
[20:13:16] <roycroft> and i know it's a 16GB usb stick
[20:13:35] <roycroft> # file ubuntu-12.04.5-desktop-i386.iso
[20:13:36] <roycroft> ubuntu-12.04.5-desktop-i386.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data 'Ubuntu 12.04.5 LTS i386 ' (bootable)
[20:13:38] <roycroft> there we go
[20:13:59] <roycroft> now to scribble
[20:14:04] <roycroft> perchance to boot
[20:14:56] <andypugh> I have tried 3 sticks, 2 OSes and 2 iso’s in a sub-set of all possible combinations
[20:15:05] <cradek> then it's the pc
[20:15:11] <roycroft> try one again, and do that diskutil list command
[20:15:22] <cradek> it can't boot from usb, or it can't boot from usb with the current bios settings
[20:15:30] <roycroft> and see if you get the fdisk partition scheme and then 0x17 file type as i do
[20:15:41] <roycroft> assuming that's the case
[20:15:48] <roycroft> and i'm fairly confident it will be
[20:15:52] <roycroft> then it's a pc bios thing
[20:15:57] * roycroft boot attempts
[20:15:57] <andypugh> cradek: Oh, you mean the CNC PC?
[20:15:58] <roycroft> brb
[20:16:09] <cradek> yes, whatever you're trying to boot it on
[20:16:11] <roycroft> whichever one you're trying to boot on
[20:16:25] <andypugh> It was working, clearly I got an OS onto it once,
[20:16:46] <cradek> ... somehow
[20:16:56] <cradek> could have been a cd, or it was running a disk that was installed elsewhere
[20:17:11] <cradek> unless you can remember, which I sure wouldn't in your place :-)
[20:17:41] <andypugh> But I am mainly creating unreadable USB sticks. I am assuming that a stick that none of my three indoor OSs can read isn’t worth trying to boot from.
[20:17:49] <roycroft> and ubuntu is loading
[20:18:03] <roycroft> that is a bad assumption
[20:18:12] <roycroft> because both images i've put on a usb disk are unreadable
[20:18:15] <roycroft> yet both boot the pc
[20:18:21] <roycroft> stick one on your mac
[20:18:34] <cradek> yes it is normal for it to not just mount
[20:18:46] <roycroft> and type "diskutil list /dev/disk1"
[20:18:57] <andypugh> Well, thinking about it, I might have just put the old SSD on the new motherboard, I changed it 18 months ago,
[20:19:19] <andypugh> Maybe there really is no way to get an OS onto this motherboard.
[20:19:31] <roycroft> don't give up yet
[20:20:01] <roycroft> but confirm that the usb stick is likely a good bootable image
[20:20:11] <roycroft> and then it's time to look at the linuxcnc pc's bios
[20:20:41] <roycroft> some pc bioses have a flag that has to be set to permit removable drives to be bootable
[20:21:07] <roycroft> you may have never had to set that, if you moved a ssd from an old machine to the current one
[20:23:12] <andypugh> The BIOS appears to be happy to try to boot from the stick (or the same name, with UEFI prepended, which may be a really bad sign)
[20:23:25] <roycroft> oh, you need a uefi image
[20:23:38] <roycroft> there's a way to deal with that
[20:23:39] <cradek> usually? you can turn that bs off in the bios
[20:23:52] <roycroft> yes, there is usually a legacy bios mode
[20:24:06] <cradek> the linuxcnc image is certainly not signed uefi
[20:24:07] <roycroft> that would certainly be the easiest way to handle it
[20:25:54] <roycroft> look in your bios settings for "CSM" can be enabled in the uefi setup section
[20:26:15] <roycroft> (CSM = Compatebility Support Module)
[20:28:14] <roycroft> one other thing you might check if enabling CSM doesn't work is to check the USB emulation mode
[20:28:25] <roycroft> and change it from flopph/cd-rom to hard drive
[20:53:37] <XXCoder> boooo
[21:00:27] * roycroft awaits with bated breath andypugh's cry of EUREKA!
[21:12:54] <andypugh> Sorry, it’s way pastmidnight, I wasn’t even considering going back out to the workshop
[21:13:58] <andypugh> And, it isn’t refusing to boot from non-UEFI, it tries and gets to a flashing cursor 3 lines from the top, but no further.
[21:14:46] <andypugh> (that’s with an old USB I found, all todays get “no filesystem found” or something like that
[21:15:59] <roycroft> i can understand not wanting to go out in the cold in the middle of the night
[21:16:34] <XXCoder> man up!
[21:16:47] <andypugh> Aye, time to sleep, and try in the morning. Also, quite drunk. :-)
[21:17:28] <roycroft> so at least you've been fulfulling your year-end duties to some degree
[21:17:54] <roycroft> is there an equivalent of hogmany in your part of england?
[21:18:19] * roycroft wonders if there's an equivalent of hogmany in any part of england
[21:18:28] <andypugh> To be honest, I gave up on this for day at arounf 10pm when I got round to eating at last, and that was 5 hours ago
[21:18:56] <roycroft> it is just dinner time for me
[21:19:01] <roycroft> but i'm 8 hours behind you
[21:19:26] <XXCoder> 6 pm here
[21:19:45] <andypugh> 3am here (nearly). In fact……
[21:29:18] <CaptHindsight> is New Years Eve on the 31st or 32nd?
[21:33:13] <XXCoder> 33ND
[21:35:34] <dioz> 34st
[21:37:20] <roycroft> it's the 31st
[21:37:31] <roycroft> it's a very long new year's eve this year, however
[21:37:44] <roycroft> because the day is 86401 seconds long
[21:38:38] <roycroft> extra time for drinking!
[21:39:36] <XXCoder> fancy.
[21:40:20] <roycroft> this will be the second longest year of my life
[21:40:31] <roycroft> 1972 was a leap year, but it had two leap seconds
[21:40:35] <roycroft> so it was the longest
[21:40:44] <XXCoder> its longest year for me then
[21:40:52] <XXCoder> approtate since this year sucks
[21:41:16] <XXCoder> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/07/3d/d8/073dd85826a42eb3f51ff71a7a771089.jpg
[21:51:44] <CaptHindsight> before a marathon run they say you should run about 10 miles
[21:52:26] <CaptHindsight> so should tonight should be ~4 drinks if tomorrow will be ~10?
[21:53:15] <CaptHindsight> ~10 drinks over 10 hours
[21:53:31] <XXCoder> I plan to do 0 drinks over infinity hours
[21:53:53] <Jymmm> Just empty a case today ADN tomorrow
[21:54:29] <CaptHindsight> but I drunk scotch
[21:54:55] <Jymmm> Ok, then empty THREE cases of scotch today, and 9 cases tomorrow
[21:54:56] <CaptHindsight> a case of scotch is 12 bottles
[21:55:16] <Jymmm> six half gallons per case
[21:55:25] <CaptHindsight> 12 x 750mL = 9L
[21:56:07] <CaptHindsight> that's about 200 shots
[21:56:17] <XXCoder> got idea for you capt
[21:56:21] <Jymmm> No shots, just use a straw
[21:56:24] <XXCoder> get IV setup
[21:56:33] <XXCoder> precisely timed drops
[21:56:42] <Jymmm> Oh, in that case....
[21:56:58] <CaptHindsight> i tend to have doubles and the bartenders tend to pour mine a but heavy
[21:57:06] <CaptHindsight> but/bit
[21:57:29] <cradek> I have on occasion had two drinks on the same day
[21:57:39] <cradek> has to be a special occasion
[21:57:41] <cradek> or two of them
[21:57:50] <Jymmm> Fill with two ounces of scotch, insert into anus and squeeze...
http://style.partyjollof.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/multi-gyn-vaginal-douche-tablets.jpg
[21:58:00] <CaptHindsight> so maybe 110 drinks in a case for me
[21:58:50] <roycroft> i can't afford a case of scotch
[21:58:57] <Jymmm> c-log: The 2oz will have you passed out if not in the hospital for alcohol poising
[21:58:57] <c-log> Jymmm: Today's Log
http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:82/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/2016-12-30.html
[21:58:58] <roycroft> a bottle at a time is the best i can do
[21:59:00] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: you must not enjoy the flavor of alcohol
[21:59:15] <CaptHindsight> unless that's part of the mixer :)
[21:59:18] <roycroft> fortunately i can afford a bottle more often than i drink a bottle, so i have a variety in stock
[21:59:38] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Well, we're talking about you here not me =)
[22:00:45] <roycroft> scotch can be opened up with a drop of water upon occasion
[22:00:53] <roycroft> otherwise there is no such thing as a "mixer" for it
[22:01:56] * roycroft has not had a wee dram in a while, and ponders pouring one this evening now
[22:02:24] <Jymmm> roycroft: in a 64 ox glass?
[22:02:26] <Jymmm> oz
[22:03:24] <roycroft> i have a quaich
[22:03:26] <CaptHindsight> depends on the scotch, some I'll add about a baby spoons worth of water
[22:04:00] <roycroft> oban opens up nicely, but it really only takes a drop or two of water
[22:04:18] <CaptHindsight> I'm usually into islays
[22:04:20] <roycroft> i know some folks like to open up islays
[22:04:24] <roycroft> but i prefer them neat
[22:04:27] <CaptHindsight> Ardbeg
[22:04:40] <roycroft> laphroaig, lagavulin, and ardbeg are my favorites
[22:04:54] <roycroft> all three distilleries are almost within spitting distance of each other
[22:05:08] <CaptHindsight> sometimes laphroaig, lagavulin
[22:05:17] <roycroft> i own land in islay!
[22:05:22] <roycroft> i am a friend of laphroaig
[22:05:34] <roycroft> and they deeded me a square foot of peat land :)
[22:05:48] <roycroft> i can visit it and inspect it whenever i want
[22:05:54] <roycroft> and then stop by the tasting room
[22:05:57] <CaptHindsight> not a fan of unpeated scotch
[22:06:08] <CaptHindsight> it's like beer without yeast
[22:06:11] <roycroft> i find scotches from all regions that i like
[22:06:14] <roycroft> have you had oban?
[22:06:26] <CaptHindsight> sure
[22:06:26] <roycroft> it's a highland scotch
[22:06:29] <roycroft> somewhat peaty
[22:06:37] <XXCoder> foot^2 fancy
[22:06:38] <roycroft> but it has a bit of citrus flavor
[22:06:38] <CaptHindsight> not much i haven't had
[22:06:46] <roycroft> and a slightly oily mouthfeel
[22:07:09] <roycroft> i think it's more approachable to folks that aren't used to peated scotches than the islay malts
[22:07:18] <CaptHindsight> also a fan of rye whiskey
[22:07:24] <roycroft> i like rye
[22:07:28] <roycroft> and rye drinks
[22:08:06] <CaptHindsight> my starter scotch recommendation is Balvenie
[22:08:12] <roycroft> a well made sazerac is an ideal beverage on a hot summer day
[22:08:57] <roycroft> craggenmore or dalwhinnie are good starter scotches
[22:09:10] <roycroft> it usually takes time to embrace the peat
[22:09:15] <CaptHindsight> not a fan of sazerac
[22:09:55] <CaptHindsight> I wish there was peat floating in the bottle
[22:10:04] <roycroft> i have other hot summer day cocktails that i enjoy
[22:10:12] <roycroft> a mint julep is nice
[22:10:19] <roycroft> and i am a huge fan of mojitos
[22:10:26] <roycroft> that may be my favorite mixed drink of all time
[22:10:26] <CaptHindsight> pims and ginger
[22:10:39] <roycroft> i grow mojito mint just for making them
[22:11:01] <CaptHindsight> lately it's been Belgian sours
[22:12:09] <roycroft> now i have to decide what to have tonight
[22:12:19] <roycroft> i've a dozen bottles of single malt in stock
[22:12:24] <roycroft> so a fairly decent selection
[22:15:05] <roycroft> mayhap i should break out the pipes and play for a bit for inspiration
[22:15:13] <roycroft> also to get rid of my cats for a while
[22:19:04] <CaptHindsight> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchesse_de_Bourgogne_
[22:19:16] <CaptHindsight> might polish off my last two
[22:20:09] <roycroft> when i get my brew system back online i'm planning on starting on some flanders red again
[22:20:17] <roycroft> i haven't brewed it in a long time
[22:20:23] <roycroft> it takes about 3 years
[22:20:42] <roycroft> but i have worked out a pretty good method
[22:20:58] <CaptHindsight> time machine? :)
[22:21:03] <roycroft> six batches of beer altogether, blended nicely
[22:21:26] <roycroft> i brew in three groups of two batches, each of the batches spaced a month apart, and the groups spaced six months apart
[22:21:55] <CaptHindsight> I can synthesize custom DNA
[22:22:09] <roycroft> that's nice
[22:22:13] <CaptHindsight> I wonder what we could do with yeasts
[22:22:13] <roycroft> but i am a yeast whisperer :)
[22:22:30] <roycroft> i can coax what i want out of them
[22:22:47] <roycroft> are you familiar with brewing?
[22:22:59] <CaptHindsight> custom tuned yeasts and bacteria
[22:23:05] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[22:23:12] <roycroft> so this is my secret (and it does work well)
[22:23:19] <roycroft> i make the first batch
[22:23:28] <CaptHindsight> i was considering opening a distillery
[22:23:43] <roycroft> i use a mix of S. cerevesiae and some bugs (Brett. sp. and various bacteria)
[22:23:51] <roycroft> i ferment that
[22:23:59] <roycroft> after a month i rack the beer off the yeast/bug cake
[22:23:59] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: How's the stovepipe coming along?
[22:24:12] <roycroft> then i brew another batch and put it on that yeast cake
[22:24:15] <roycroft> and i leave it there
[22:24:18] <roycroft> i never rack it off
[22:24:30] <roycroft> the first batch is mostly sacc
[22:24:37] <roycroft> and makes a pleasant ale
[22:24:43] <roycroft> the second batch gets nice and funky
[22:24:58] <roycroft> the brett and bacteria feed on the trub and autolised yeast
[22:25:00] <Jymmm> Not sure I'd want a funky beer
[22:25:04] <roycroft> six months later i repeat
[22:25:11] <roycroft> and six months after that i repeat again
[22:25:24] <roycroft> so i end up with six batches after 20 months
[22:25:40] <roycroft> then i start blending
[22:25:50] <roycroft> and let the blend sit for a few months, then bottle
[22:25:55] <roycroft> and let the bottles condition for a few months
[22:26:01] <CaptHindsight> how big are your batches?
[22:26:06] <roycroft> usually 20L
[22:26:12] <roycroft> for this
[22:26:17] <roycroft> my standard batch is 38L
[22:26:28] <roycroft> but that would leave me with way too much beer for a sour blend
[22:26:35] <roycroft> so i make half batches for that
[22:27:24] <Jymmm> cost to make 20L?
[22:27:34] <roycroft> depends on the beer
[22:27:47] <roycroft> for flanders red, probably about US$25
[22:28:10] <Jymmm> is that the cheapest?
[22:28:13] <roycroft> no
[22:28:22] <roycroft> i can make beer for about $17.50
[22:28:23] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: you're not the old potatoes and gym socks moonshiner type!?
[22:28:37] <roycroft> and the big cost is the yeast
[22:28:40] <Jymmm> roycroft: ah ok
[22:28:47] <roycroft> if i were making the same beer all the time i'd harvest and reuse the yeast
[22:28:58] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Nah, just trying to get an idea on cost.
[22:29:01] <roycroft> $7.50 for a yeast pack
[22:29:26] <Jymmm> roycroft: about how much invest in equpiment do you have ?
[22:29:35] <roycroft> oh, probably about $8k :)
[22:29:36] <Jymmm> investment*
[22:29:42] <Jymmm> haha
[22:29:49] <roycroft> but one can make really good beer with $300 worth of equipment
[22:29:58] <roycroft> have you seen my brew system?
[22:30:09] <Jymmm> I think shine would be cheaper investment =)
[22:30:12] <Jymmm> no
[22:30:28] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com/BrewSystem/BrewDay2/
[22:30:33] <roycroft> there are some pics
[22:30:46] <roycroft> i am old
[22:31:01] <roycroft> so i built a system that does not require me to lift boiling hot vessels full of stuff
[22:31:04] <roycroft> i use pumps now
[22:31:40] <roycroft> you can make beer every bit as good as i make with $300 or less worth of equipment
[22:31:52] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALCOTEC-48-HOUR-TURBO-YEAST-2-PACKS-DISTILLERS-YEAST-20-ALCOHOL-WHISKEY-STILL-/231277686086
[22:32:02] <roycroft> an expensive brew system does not make better bear
[22:32:03] <roycroft> beer
[22:32:03] <the_wench> I am not your waitress!
[22:32:07] <roycroft> it makes it easier to make beer
[22:32:11] <CaptHindsight> saccharomyces cerevisae
[22:32:47] <roycroft> now beginning brewers can get buy with even less equipment
[22:33:04] <roycroft> i do all grain brewing - i take malted grain, mill it, extract the sugars, and make beer with that
[22:33:23] <roycroft> beginners buy malt extract, and only need a kettle and a fermentor
[22:33:36] <roycroft> but it costs about 2x as much per batch to use extract vs. all grain
[22:33:50] <roycroft> and there is not as much variety of extract
[22:34:01] <roycroft> nor does one have control over the extraction process, of course
[22:35:06] <roycroft> zymurgasm.com/MeltDown.jpeg
[22:35:14] <roycroft> a few months ago i was welding in my garage shop
[22:35:25] <roycroft> i keep my control panel covered with a towel to keep the dust down
[22:35:32] <roycroft> a welding spark flew across the room and landed on the towel
[22:35:56] <roycroft> so rebuilding that control panel has been my project for the past couple months
[22:36:23] <Jymmm> roycroft: one word... polycarb
[22:36:31] <roycroft> er
[22:36:37] <roycroft> zymurgasm.com/Meltdown.jpeg
[22:36:50] <roycroft> i'll never again weld in that shop
[22:36:53] <roycroft> i have a welding shop
[22:37:02] <roycroft> i just couldn't be bothered running back and forth that day
[22:37:11] <roycroft> so i pulled a mig welder into the garage shop
[22:37:28] <Jymmm> OUCH
[22:37:32] <roycroft> yeah
[22:37:58] <Jymmm> Not the worse I've seen, but bad
[22:38:20] <roycroft> http://www.zymurgasm.com/BrewSystem/ControlPanelWiring/
[22:38:23] <roycroft> it's coming back to life
[22:38:42] <roycroft> should only be a few more days before it's fully functional again
[22:38:51] <roycroft> and the wiring in the original one was a mess
[22:39:15] <roycroft> now i'm making wiring harnesses and using connector plugs to connect the chassis to the front panel
[22:39:24] <roycroft> everything was directly wired on the original
[22:39:29] <roycroft> a huge rat's nest of wiring
[22:39:48] <Jymmm> And STILL no poly carb cover on it =)
[22:39:50] <roycroft> plus, i move some of the controls around and added another temperature display
[22:40:04] <roycroft> i'll build a better cover for it :)
[22:40:12] <roycroft> i'm done with towels
[22:40:20] <Jymmm> What, terrycloth towel this time? <sickering>
[22:41:16] <Jymmm> polycarb and a piano hinge
[22:41:29] <roycroft> i got my pid controllers and temperature sensors working earlier this week
[22:41:37] <Jymmm> cool
[22:41:46] <roycroft> i just have the heater circuits and the valves to finish
[22:42:01] <roycroft> and i'm almost out of beer!
[22:42:05] <roycroft> so it's time to finish it!
[22:42:11] <Jymmm> http://imgur.com/a/c7J22
[22:42:46] <XXCoder> Jymmm: jut need fresh paint and some electrics and everything else. that's all
[22:42:50] <roycroft> that's no good :(
[22:43:15] <roycroft> i dislike meltdowns of every kind
[22:43:25] <roycroft> but yeah
[22:43:35] <roycroft> some bondo and a couple rattle cans and it will be good as new!
[22:43:39] <Jymmm> $40K Laser engraver totalled
[22:43:46] <roycroft> and all the stuff that makes it work replaced
[22:43:55] <roycroft> my damage was only about $400
[22:44:01] <roycroft> $40k would be a lot more painful
[22:44:07] <XXCoder> jy what happened?
[22:44:27] <Jymmm> She had been running the same job for the last three hours....
[22:45:11] <Jymmm> No problems at all. She went the door to sign for UPS package, gone maybe 90 seconds, and part was on fire.
[22:45:29] <XXCoder> wow
[22:45:35] <roycroft> i saw the spark fly when i was welding
[22:45:45] <roycroft> it was only a few seconds before i got the towel off the panel
[22:45:50] <roycroft> it does not take long
[22:45:56] <Jymmm> Worse part... the insurance company would NOT cover the loss as it wasn't declared a business on their policy, though it was more a hobbish type thing.
[22:46:11] <roycroft> *ouch*
[22:46:18] <XXCoder> ow
[22:46:26] <CaptHindsight> yeah, they don't expensive hobbies
[22:46:40] <CaptHindsight> sacks of crap
[22:46:47] <Jymmm> I'm a pyro, but I don't fuck around with fire. I even picked up a bigger extuisher yesterday
[22:47:33] <Jymmm> If you weld, have a wood stove, etc, keep a 5gal bucket of sand around, holds a 50lb bag perfectly
[22:47:45] <Jymmm> and a soup can for scopping
[22:47:48] <roycroft> when i was working for a telco we were doing buildouts all over the state
[22:47:58] <roycroft> we were told that we had to list the location of all our equipment
[22:48:05] <roycroft> it all got delivered to our main office
[22:48:11] <CaptHindsight> used car salespeople, real estate brokers, insurance salespeople, lawyers, who do you kill first?
[22:48:23] <roycroft> so when we would go install it we'd note the serial numbers and give the list to the accounting folks
[22:48:33] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: lawyers first
[22:48:38] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: bankers
[22:48:42] <roycroft> they never bothered to update things with the insurane company
[22:48:54] <roycroft> there was a fire in a central office in southern oregon
[22:48:59] <roycroft> we had a $150k switch there
[22:49:15] <roycroft> insurance refused to pay because it was still listed as being at our main office
[22:49:29] <CaptHindsight> what do you call 1000 lawyers chained to a 50 ton block or concrete at the bottom of the ocean?
[22:49:42] <CaptHindsight> or/of
[22:49:43] <XXCoder> murder
[22:49:45] <Jymmm> a start?
[22:49:46] <roycroft> fortunately i had kept copies of the documents we sent to accounting
[22:49:50] <CaptHindsight> a good start
[22:51:23] <XXCoder> https://youtu.be/gcuGIbP6B3w
[22:52:09] <XXCoder> the stupid youtube anti-shake feature makes entire machine look like its shaking apart
[23:25:33] <Kevin`> cooool
