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[00:40:40] <kyle__1> guys i did it
[00:40:52] <kyle__1> Wolf_, you said a shitty x-y vise would be no good!
[00:40:54] <kyle__1> http://puu.sh/stILQ/98ac2158b8.png
[00:41:04] <kyle__1> it's a little rough but should be fully functional
[00:41:24] <kyle__1> it's not for the faint of heart though, i suppose
[00:41:37] <kyle__1> had to go really slow, spent a while tweaking the vise, etc
[00:41:55] <kyle__1> didn't do any sideways milling until the very end, at which point i was basically shaving off 0.1mm
[00:42:21] <Wolf_> lol, got lucky for the most part. really light cuts almost work ok on those
[00:42:32] <kyle__1> absolutely, yeah, i see what you mean
[00:42:41] <kyle__1> there were some hairy bits, most of the screwups were my fault though
[00:42:46] <kyle__1> got a little overzealous at times
[00:43:20] <kyle__1> biggest complaint is probably the shitty depth stop on my drill press, but it was a $80 drill press so you can't ask for too much...
[00:43:30] <Wolf_> lol
[00:43:51] <kyle__1> it's just a plastic collar basically
[00:44:04] <kyle__1> i could probably buy a bit of aluminum and make my own
[00:44:42] <Wolf_> yeah, I think mine has a set collar on the drive wheel/lever
[00:45:04] <kyle__1> what a fun project though
[00:45:22] <kyle__1> can't wait to get my hands on a real mill soon
[00:45:29] <Wolf_> you just had the rear shelf to clear and the fire control holes right?
[00:45:41] <kyle__1> yeah pretty much
[00:45:50] <kyle__1> really simple, great beginner project
[00:45:57] <kyle__1> also, it's this sort of delrin material
[00:46:26] <Wolf_> cool lol
[00:46:39] * Wolf_ wants a glock mag 9mm ar lower
[00:46:51] <kyle__1> sounds like a fun project
[00:46:55] <kyle__1> do you have any CNC?
[00:47:25] <Wolf_> 1.5 mills (if you can count the x1 as a whole mill)
[00:47:50] <kyle__1> meh, beats a drill press and a $40 x-y vise
[00:48:48] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/WUrLcnK.jpg
[00:48:58] <Wolf_> the x1 is really small
[00:49:26] <kyle__1> hah you weren't kidding about the gamepad
[00:49:49] <Wolf_> nope lol
[00:50:04] <kyle__1> this has got to be the most rewarding hobby
[00:50:25] <Wolf_> I dont use it often, faster to drive the mill direct by g-code
[00:50:50] <kyle__1> hm yeah
[00:50:54] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/kYDtEtW.jpg more amusing
[00:51:14] <Wolf_> base for the x2 on the x1
[00:51:23] <kyle__1> lol, it dwarfs it
[00:51:39] <kyle__1> the x1 is pretty tiny then
[00:51:41] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/GVsm7lB.jpg
[00:51:57] <kyle__1> coolant or air?
[00:52:14] <Wolf_> vacuum hose
[00:52:26] <kyle__1> ah, wish i'd had one of those on this
[00:52:27] <Wolf_> now I’m running mister coolant
[00:52:43] <kyle__1> fortunately this plastic doesn't get the endmill hot enough to worry
[00:53:37] <kyle__1> hm, trying to find some black friday deals on stripped uppers, not having luck
[00:54:00] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/fD7Z76M.jpg x1 still is able to do something :)
[00:54:39] <kyle__1> a clean workspace is a safe workspace!
[00:54:48] <kyle__1> (mine is 10x worse)
[00:55:52] <Wolf_> and what the x2 looks like
http://i.imgur.com/cbTjU5A.jpg (pic is a year old and its about in the same state right now lol)
[00:56:13] <kyle__1> looks like a fun little machine to be honest
[00:56:31] <kyle__1> i'm guessing from the red, it's a harbor freight model?
[00:56:47] <Wolf_> the x2 I got in pieces from little machine shop
[00:57:00] <kyle__1> ah okay
[00:57:27] <kyle__1> damn, don't tempt me, i love assembling things
[00:57:52] <Wolf_> extended x/y axis kits, solid column kit, then a head off the LMS mini mill and the red part on the head is a replacement part as well
[00:58:15] <kyle__1> would you recommend that over buying a full machine?
[00:58:54] <kyle__1> oh i suppose you have to have a full machine to start with
[00:59:04] <kyle__1> they don't seem to sell kits for the main bits
[00:59:14] <kyle__1> nvm just found it
[00:59:28] <Wolf_> for a CNC conversion on the X2 it made more sense, more x-y travel, different motor, ball screws on all axis
[01:00:05] <kyle__1> hm true
[01:00:12] <Wolf_> the extended x/y kits are actually for the x1 lol
[01:00:16] <kyle__1> haven't decided if I want to go CNC yet
[01:00:38] <kyle__1> but I can always convert it later
[01:01:02] <Wolf_> yeah, plus you kinda need the mill to make parts for a diy conversion
[01:01:33] <kyle__1> now that you mention it, heh
[01:02:27] <Wolf_> thats why my suggestion was to keep checking craigslist for someone selling off a small mill + tooling
[01:02:39] <kyle__1> yeah
[01:02:52] <kyle__1> the sf bay area seems pretty light on people doing stuff like this though
[01:03:06] <kyle__1> you'd think you'd find tons since everyone wants to call themselves a "maker"
[01:03:15] <kyle__1> but... you might find a good deal on a hot glue gun?
[01:03:21] <Wolf_> haha
[01:03:30] <Wolf_> might need to look farther out
[01:03:33] <kyle__1> yeah
[01:03:46] <kyle__1> i was thinking of checking kansas city and having my dad ship it out to me
[01:04:15] <kyle__1> he runs a factory so he gets a pretty good deal on that
[01:04:27] <Wolf_> and really for machining, the machine cost is the low part, tooling and inspection/measuring gear is the killer
[01:04:34] <kyle__1> absolutely
[01:04:36] <kyle__1> but that's the fun in it
[01:05:11] <Wolf_> I got the x1 for $300, lathe for $350
[01:05:29] <kyle__1> sweet deal
[01:06:12] <Wolf_> w/ mics, end mills, holders, vice. pretty much everything ready to make things
[01:06:17] <Wolf_> I’ve easily spent 4x that on measuring tool and more tooling lol
[01:06:21] <kyle__1> really nice, then
[01:06:28] <kyle__1> at least i've got some 3/8" endmills now
[01:06:44] <kyle__1> polymer80 ships one with the jig kits
[01:07:26] <kyle__1> i basically have a full shop already, right?
[01:07:58] <kyle__1> http://kansascity.craigslist.org/tls/5851638786.html
[01:08:10] <kyle__1> shipping on that would be fun
[01:08:26] <Wolf_> if you are on Facebook check out the machinist tools BST and used machinist tools for sale groups
[01:08:36] <kyle__1> good idea, thanks
[01:09:15] <Wolf_> … damn, stuff like that never close to me either lol
[01:10:14] <kyle__1> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/5891038357.html
[01:10:18] <kyle__1> oh damn that's right down the road from me
[01:10:28] <kyle__1> now if only i had a use for a surface plate
[01:11:04] <kyle__1> girlfriend might actually kill me if i brought that one home
[01:11:27] <XXCoder> pretty cheap
[01:12:09] <kyle__1> always makes me a little sad when I see 3-wheel bandsaws for more than $20 on craigslist
[01:12:19] <Wolf_> http://york.craigslist.org/tls/5847565252.html
[01:12:23] <Wolf_> hmm lol
[01:12:39] <kyle__1> do it
[01:12:47] <kyle__1> you never know when it might come in handy
[01:13:07] <Wolf_> need to pay for the machines I’m picking up first…
[01:13:56] <kyle__1> money is such a transient thing when there are so many toys- i mean tools to buy
[01:14:20] <kyle__1> fortunately my rent should be going from $2400/mo to $700/mo soon!
[01:15:21] <Wolf_> thats a plus lol
[01:15:32] <kyle__1> it's like getting ten raises at once
[01:15:40] <Wolf_> haha
[01:16:07] <kyle__1> and my future roommates are interested in machining too, so that's another plus
[01:17:09] <Wolf_> I need to hurry up and come up with the rest of the $6000 to pick up the machines I agreed to buy lol
[01:17:40] <kyle__1> just... agree to sell some other machines!
[01:17:51] <kyle__1> rinse and repeat
[01:18:12] <Wolf_> actually I need to sell off some guns…
[01:18:41] <kyle__1> i'd buy if i wasn't in california
[01:19:30] <Wolf_> know anyone who would want a winchester 71 348win long tang lever action, only $2500 :D
[01:20:07] <kyle__1> maybe i should move away
[01:20:31] <Wolf_> lol, I’m in maryland so not much better…
[01:20:41] <kyle__1> owning guns in california just sucks though :(
[01:20:56] <pfred1> prison state
[01:21:08] <Wolf_> ar-15 rifles are almost totally banned in MD
[01:21:09] <kyle__1> i don't disagree one bit, sometimes it really does feel like a prison
[01:21:33] <pfred1> in prison inmates are not allowed to possess weapons
[01:21:53] <kyle__1> it just seems really futile to ban rifles
[01:22:08] <kyle__1> mass shootings are really not that big of a deal, ban handguns if you want to make a real difference
[01:22:12] <Wolf_> yup
[01:22:18] <pfred1> Wolf_ you need to vote those people out of office
[01:23:01] <kyle__1> here's some half-hearted hope that the majority republican congress passes some sort of 2nd amendment protection act this cycle
[01:23:05] <Wolf_> that already happened partly here, Dem gov got replaced by a Repub somehow
[01:23:19] <pfred1> we're an open carry state
[01:24:13] <pfred1> anyone not prohibited can carry a firearm
[01:24:47] <kyle__1> everyone wants to wait for the police to come and save them with their guns
[01:25:02] <kyle__1> what if the police were everywhere
[01:25:04] <pfred1> when seconds count the police are only minutes away
[01:25:05] <XXCoder> crimes really do happen that often there?
[01:25:24] <kyle__1> where? america's huge and it really depends
[01:25:31] <pfred1> there's home invasions by me weekly
[01:25:34] <Wolf_> but on the + side MD gun laws are half stupid as well, no ar-15 rifles, unless h-bar, AR-10/SR-25 are legal cash and carry though? no mags over 10rds (purchase/manufacture/transfer) but you can go to VA or PA and buy/bring back legally
[01:25:49] <kyle__1> ugh 10 round limit is just dumb
[01:26:01] <kyle__1> you already have bullet buttons in california
[01:26:07] <Wolf_> yeah, very
[01:26:13] <kyle__1> is 30 rounds really going to make a difference? not likely
[01:26:36] <kyle__1> i'd rather see money going towards mental health
[01:27:09] <XXCoder> just basic certification like car license
[01:27:20] <pfred1> what license?
[01:27:27] <XXCoder> basic understanding of safety and good mental health
[01:27:31] <kyle__1> lol, have you ever driven in the US?
[01:27:41] <XXCoder> kyle__1: yes. everday.
[01:28:01] <kyle__1> i was fortunate enough to grow up in one of the safest places to drive in the US
[01:28:10] <kyle__1> unfortunate enough to find myself in one of the worst places
[01:28:17] <pfred1> people drive like crap here
[01:28:25] <XXCoder> pf city I live in is #1 on crime in wa state. there isnt weekly home invasions nearbu.
[01:28:38] * Wolf_ has to put up with DC traffic
[01:28:48] <kyle__1> oh. i'm sorry Wolf_, you win
[01:29:11] <pfred1> I grew up next to NYC
[01:29:14] <Wolf_> gladly, my job shop is in my back yard...
[01:29:49] <kyle__1> driving in the bay area makes me glad i have good life insurance
[01:30:07] <XXCoder> I will have life insurance for first time this coming jan
[01:30:08] <kyle__1> at least my parents won't get stuck with my student loans
[01:30:22] <XXCoder> I will probbaly die a day before
[01:30:30] <XXCoder> given my lousy luck lol
[01:30:40] <kyle__1> my parents signed me up for $20k when i started college
[01:30:54] <kyle__1> guess what, ended up with $40k after two years
[01:33:49] <kyle__1> hmm
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2859-Sanderling-Dr-Fremont-CA-94555/25047883_zpid/
[01:33:56] <kyle__1> 3 car garage = good workshop?
[01:34:05] <pfred1> better than what I got
[01:34:10] <kyle__1> not sure i'm fancy enough for a mcmansion of this caliber
[01:34:10] <Wolf_> ok start
[01:34:41] <pfred1> I have a 1.5 car garage
[01:34:55] <kyle__1> no one ever puts garage pictures in their listings
[01:35:09] <kyle__1> this could be one of those idiotic shallow garages you can barely fit a motorcycle in for all i know
[01:35:28] <Wolf_> 3 smart car garage
[01:35:35] <XXCoder> nah
[01:35:44] <pfred1> I could probably get 2 Smart cars in here
[01:35:45] <kyle__1> you know, it is the bay area
[01:35:47] <XXCoder> 2 shelves behind it
[01:35:53] <XXCoder> one foot deep ;)
[01:35:57] <XXCoder> saw one like that
[01:36:26] <kyle__1> my biggest concern with this house right now is that it has an intercom
[01:36:43] <XXCoder> if its wired its basically hard to tap
[01:36:47] <XXCoder> wireless however
[01:36:48] <kyle__1> some roommates gonna wake up to racial slurs, basically
[01:37:08] <XXCoder> or loud sex noises :P
[01:37:12] <kyle__1> ono
[01:37:15] <XXCoder> roommates?
[01:37:29] <kyle__1> yeah, you didn't think i'd get rent under $2k on my own, did you? :P
[01:37:53] <kyle__1> housemates is probably the better term though
[01:37:55] <XXCoder> so your friends does that eh
[01:38:04] <XXCoder> or its assortment of strangers
[01:38:07] <Wolf_> I have a 3 car garage, damn truck doesn’t even fit in it
http://i.imgur.com/gzw7p90.jpg
[01:38:22] <kyle__1> well shit
[01:38:32] <kyle__1> i mean, it's not exactly a small truck
[01:38:47] <Wolf_> granted that my truck is like ~23 feet
[01:39:01] <pfred1> Wolf_ what kind of truck is that?
[01:39:41] <Wolf_> 2012 Ford F550 extended cab w/ 12 foot AL-90 hook lift
[01:39:53] <pfred1> for a trailer?
[01:40:44] <XXCoder> high tech hippies
http://www.decadecounter.com:8088/readingroom/rsrc/hogan/Hogan_TheGenesisMachine.jpg
[01:40:48] <pfred1> so it is basically a tractor?
[01:40:50] <XXCoder> gonna love 70s book
[01:41:36] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/UM3Rf8L.jpg anything that is mounted on a hook lift subframe
[01:41:42] <kyle__1> that's a hell of a truck
[01:42:16] <pfred1> I thought it might have been a roll off
[01:42:27] <XXCoder> good actual working truck
[01:42:29] <Wolf_> same idea
[01:42:40] <XXCoder> I have seen people with HUGGGGE truck with back shiny and smooth
[01:42:45] <XXCoder> fakers.
[01:42:56] <Wolf_> except that you don’t have to get out and mess with a cable to hook to the cans
[01:43:28] <kyle__1> if it's not scratched, it's not a truck
[01:43:37] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/h5owuJf.jpg yeah, move more then a couch with mine
[01:43:43] <XXCoder> it need to be more than scratched
[01:44:26] <XXCoder> truck with well used back = unknown penis size. big truck with shiny back = tiny penis comp
[01:44:39] <Wolf_> lol
[01:44:50] <XXCoder> sadly all big trucks at my work is shiny type
[01:45:01] <XXCoder> including one that always park very badly
[01:45:07] <kyle__1> there's not a single truck at my work
[01:45:23] <XXCoder> personally I prefer tiny cars
[01:45:28] <kyle__1> who needs a truck to smash on a keyboard
[01:45:34] <XXCoder> though my penis would not shame a horse :P
[01:45:37] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/dfUOl7J.jpg
[01:45:38] <kyle__1> same, I drive an Eclipse
[01:45:48] <XXCoder> ford focus
[01:45:58] <Wolf_> I usually take my car places… it fits in parking spaces
[01:45:59] <pfred1> XXCoder at my age I appreciate command seating
[01:46:20] <XXCoder> I drove soccer mom van for years before it decided to die
[01:46:26] <XXCoder> hella good seat
[01:47:39] <Wolf_> now useless trucks, we make those
http://i.imgur.com/DgReOwR.jpg lol
[01:47:42] <pfred1> I'm too old to drive a go cart anymore
[01:48:22] <XXCoder> whats your age? im 40 early middle aged basically lol
[01:48:29] <pfred1> 52
[01:49:00] <pfred1> I put my back out last week crawling under a bench setting a PC up
[01:49:01] <XXCoder> ok
[01:49:18] <kyle__1> aw wtf
[01:49:33] <kyle__1> is it not possible to buy a car with a 3.0+ L V6 anymore?
[01:51:00] <XXCoder> mecury sable 1980s
[01:51:03] <XXCoder> big motor.
[01:51:07] <XXCoder> 3.8l
[01:51:15] <kyle__1> oh yeah old cars ofc
[01:51:18] <XXCoder> I miss mine :(
[01:51:21] <pfred1> the 80s was a bad time for vehicles
[01:51:41] <kyle__1> ah here we go, 2017 chevy impala has a 3.6L V6 option, 305hp and 29mpg highway
[01:51:45] <XXCoder> mecury sable was hella good that time. I drove 1988 mecury sable for almost 10 years
[01:51:46] <kyle__1> not too bad
[01:51:59] <XXCoder> 29 mpg not bad for big motor
[01:52:05] <pfred1> kyle__1 so 15MPG if you're lucky
[01:52:13] <kyle__1> sure, but at least it's not an I4
[01:52:24] <kyle__1> might actually still be around in 5 years
[01:53:07] <Wolf_> my car only has 150hp 2L 4 cylinder
[01:53:16] <kyle__1> same
[01:53:19] <Wolf_> but 42mpg highway
[01:53:23] <pfred1> Wolf_ only?
[01:53:29] <kyle__1> although it's the fourth one in that car
[01:53:43] <XXCoder> 31 mpg "normal driving" mpg for my car
[01:53:50] <kyle__1> chrysler not too good at the engines stuffs
[01:54:04] <XXCoder> cant wait for elio.
[01:54:06] <XXCoder> 84 mpg
[02:23:49] <Deejay> moin
[02:25:14] <pfred1> ϺϘϯΝ
[02:26:11] <XXCoder> g̡ơ̲͇̮o͔͡d̷ ̙̳̬̣͍̥̦͟m҉o͚r̗͚̟͈̝n͎̝̲i͕̮n̻g͏̥̤̘̬͇̟͖ ͕̲̟̕m̷̫̦̩̺y͎̠̗͎̤̺̟ ̴̜̪̗̘̜ḓ̡̻̥e̯͍̥͉a͝r͈̳ ̫̼ͅf͕̬r͍͖̲͉͍̫̥͜i͏e̯̪n̪̘̞̗͖͔͙ḍ̷̪͈̻̼̼̲s̼͉
[02:26:29] <Kevin`> morning
[02:27:52] <Deejay> what language is that?
[02:28:31] <XXCoder> english
[02:28:34] <XXCoder> accent abused
[02:29:15] <XXCoder> ye̬͐̓ͅp̩͗ͮ͊̋ͫ̐ ̰̈͐͑͑w̱̠̮̓͊h̀ͣ̐̓ͨͦa͚͈ͪ̔ͤt͎͓̂ͅ ̻͉̭ͧ̑f͙̫͖͚̭̹ͩ̆ͬͪů̬̅̋̆̊̚n͓̂̑ͮ̿͆͌
[02:31:37] <Deejay> looks like vomit ;)
[02:32:08] <XXCoder> yeah
[02:32:20] <XXCoder> www.eeemo.net
[02:32:29] <XXCoder> not nice language warning btw
[02:46:04] <XXCoder> anyway
[02:46:12] <XXCoder> what oil do you guys use to protect 123 blocks?
[02:46:18] <XXCoder> without affecting its precise size
[02:47:47] <archivist> almost any non drying oil
[02:48:28] <XXCoder> im not sure how to know which is and which wont dry
[02:48:34] <archivist> you can buy protective oils
[02:49:47] <XXCoder> couldnt find out which would work and whicjh dont
[02:50:56] <XXCoder> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KUA2FI/
[02:51:02] <XXCoder> only one I found but bit proicy
[02:51:10] <XXCoder> more for for mic or caliper
[02:51:23] <XXCoder> how often do I need to oil those anyway
[02:53:05] <archivist> also there are waxes and greases
[02:53:23] <XXCoder> http://swingleydev.com/ot/get/24436/thread/#24436
[02:53:26] <XXCoder> interesting
[02:54:12] <archivist> clockmakers and museums use
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Renaissance-Micro-Crystalline-Wax-200/dp/B0015F2GEM
[02:56:04] <XXCoder> interesting
[02:56:09] <XXCoder> found it on usa version
[02:57:17] <archivist> sets of blocks, precision balls often come with an oil so you wipe them before putting away, others use a case with a desicant
[02:57:43] <archivist> must clean before each use
[02:57:44] <XXCoder> mine was plastic wrapped with wax
[02:58:05] <XXCoder> I removed wax and added oil at work, I just dont wanna bring it to work each time it needs oiling
[02:58:29] <archivist> my block holders have protective sheet inside the lid
[02:59:19] <XXCoder> I guess can use diseccants I have some of those because of filiments needing em
[03:01:33] <archivist> a closed box with
http://www.zeuspackaginggroup.com/catalogue/2/10/63
[03:02:34] <archivist> some give off an anti rust vapour
http://www.packagingproducts.co.uk/Anti-Corrosion-Papers.htm
[03:02:49] <XXCoder> it turns it back to iron or what?
[03:04:03] <archivist> no, it gives off an oil/de water vapour
[03:04:28] <XXCoder> interesting'
[03:04:48] <XXCoder> I love those indictor plates
[03:04:59] <XXCoder> 10% incerements to 60%+
[03:05:13] <XXCoder> my room 50% now
[03:05:24] <XXCoder> filiment boxes both less than 10%
[03:05:32] <XXCoder> (all blue)
[03:06:26] <XXCoder> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01974FX42/
[05:54:35] <holymoly> hi
[05:55:51] <holymoly> dudes
[05:56:00] <speedevil> hi
[05:56:12] <speedevil> There are also dudettes.
[05:56:40] <archivist> and some swapping sides
[05:56:58] <holymoly> achivist i need ur expertise
[05:57:07] <XXCoder> and some fluid
[05:57:09] <holymoly> maybe u can help me
[05:57:19] <XXCoder> and some its
[05:57:23] <archivist> not without a sensible question
[05:57:34] * speedevil ponders gender cutting fluid.
[05:57:37] <XXCoder> to be or not to be?
[05:57:45] <holymoly> we ve got a cnc donated from datron
[05:58:11] <archivist> I saw you say that yesterday
[05:58:19] <holymoly> yes
[05:58:27] <holymoly> what to do
[05:58:36] <XXCoder> sell to me for $1
[05:58:45] <XXCoder> seriosuly dunno
[05:58:59] <holymoly> I thought about getting the Transfer function
[05:59:05] <holymoly> for both
[05:59:09] <archivist> learn more about each problem, fix, move on
[05:59:26] <holymoly> spindel and FC
[06:00:07] <holymoly> very uncool
[06:00:11] <holymoly> :(
[06:00:15] <archivist> read vfd manual, get manual for spindle
[06:00:37] <archivist> spindle motor I mean
[06:00:54] <sync> it's not really that difficult to put a vfd on a spindle
[06:00:58] <archivist> or learn about motors and wire it
[06:01:02] <sync> although you may want something better than a chinese one
[06:01:57] <archivist> I just get second hand VFDs off ebay download the manual and wire and use them
[06:02:43] <holymoly> the thing is
[06:03:01] <holymoly> the cnc is donated not for me, but to the darmstadt makerspace
[06:03:22] <archivist> it is only 4 wires, 3 phases and ground to wire
[06:03:42] <holymoly> tomorrow at same time
[06:03:45] <malcom2073_> So get them toget a secondhand vfd
[06:03:47] <holymoly> i will working on it
[06:04:00] <holymoly> and post pic about takeing my steps
[06:04:17] <archivist> or see if the one you have is suitable
[06:04:33] <holymoly> but i wanted to collect some information for tomorrow thats why i am asking
[06:05:38] <holymoly> VFD is standing for ?
[06:05:58] <archivist> IRC is not that good for a full description of setting up a VFD, do some googling and manual reading on setting them up
[06:06:19] <archivist> variable frequency drive
[06:06:30] <holymoly> yep O gioogled it :D
[06:06:36] <archivist> also known as inverter
[06:07:05] <holymoly> to taking the transfer funktions is not nessesary
[06:07:36] <holymoly> will rtfm and see
[06:07:38] <holymoly> :(
[06:07:49] <holymoly> i hate rtfm
[06:08:26] <archivist> the important thing is what voltage and phase your supply is, and what voltages the motor can run at
[06:08:27] <malcom2073_> You won't get very far in life with that attitude :-P
[06:09:09] <archivist> we cannot guess the content of your FM
[06:10:30] <holymoly> ok thx so far tomorrow there will be pic
[06:14:19] <jthornton> morning
[07:22:21] <enleth> is it possible/practical to run a single stepper-based axis in a servo-based mill controlled by a 7i77, with step/dir signals being output through 7i77's field I/O?
[07:25:43] <archivist> or better still change firmware if possible
[07:30:45] <enleth> archivist: you mean make a custom build for the FPGA, with a single stepgen channel on selected pins?
[07:31:24] <archivist> yes
[07:31:49] <archivist> pcw may already have one
[07:33:15] <enleth> I wonder if the servo ENA signals on 7i77 could be driven as STEP/DIR, I haven't really compared whatever drives them to what's on the 7i76E
[07:33:28] <enleth> I have the unused servo channels anyway.
[07:40:05] <jthornton> iirc what Peter said the I/O would be very slow for step and direction
[07:41:58] <enleth> not surprising
[07:42:26] <enleth> but perhaps the servo outputs could be driven as stepgen pins
[07:43:03] <archivist> you want to get out of software stepgen
[07:43:24] <archivist> which is the main speed limit I think
[07:43:53] <enleth> that's intended for a 4th axis anyway, it's not like it needs to be super fast
[07:44:28] <archivist> I do coordinated moves with the 4th :)
[07:45:24] <archivist> I can then do arcs well outside the usual machine limits
[07:46:28] <enleth> anyway what I meant is whether the servo output pins can be used with a modified firmware image as step/dir outputs for hardware stepgen
[07:47:36] <enleth> there shouldn't be a fundamental reason not to use them like that, if the ENA+/- can flip fast enough to act as the STEP+/- output,
[08:28:11] <speedevil> \
[09:14:49] <root-x> )
[09:27:34] <pcw_home> enleth any of the sserial pins (Enables, field I/0) can only toggle at the servo thread rate (500 Hz for a 1 KHz servo thread) so not adequate for step motors
[09:28:07] <enleth> pcw_home: what about using servo drive outputs as step/dir outputs in some way?
[09:28:41] <pcw_home> if you want a single stepgen, use the 7I77_7I76 config and 5I25 P2
[09:29:53] <pcw_home> either with a 7I76 or 7I78 or a cheap Chinese breakout (or carefully direct drive )
[10:06:11] * JT-Shop heads for Lake Taneycomo see everyone later
[10:43:21] <enleth> pcw_home: OK, even a 7i78 is a little bit overkill for a single channel, but still within my budget, so I'll probably go ahead with that, thanks
[10:43:57] <pcw_home> you can use a Chinese $5.00 breakout also
[10:47:58] <enleth> nah, $70 is reasonable as long as I can get someone reliable to pick it up for me and bring it back here in their luggage
[10:50:02] <enleth> the friend who co-funds the Bridgeport and ORAC conversions plans to visit the Richmond area on a business trip in late January
[10:56:01] <pink-v> XXCoder: are you here?
[10:56:05] <enleth> we're happy to support you guys with our money even if the products are a tad expensive for us - it's the shipping costs, VAT, customs fees and several weeks of waiting for the customs to clear the package that we find barely acceptable
[10:58:26] <MacGalempsy> morning.
[11:03:41] <pcw_home> customs are terrible in some countries (Brazil, Russia, Canada???)
[11:03:42] <pcw_home> Yet we can import stuff from China here with near 0 shipping costs
[11:03:44] <pcw_home> the fix is in
[11:05:44] <CaptHindsight> I can buy many China made goods for lower prices in the US than in China
[11:06:48] <MacGalempsy> so the brush DC servo drives that came with my unit had custom tuning. since changing the controller, attempting to tune the drives has been anything but textbook. I am curious if changing the drives back to the settings would make tuning the motors easier? Any thoughts? I could pull up the drive specs if it would help diagnose the issue.
[11:07:35] <CaptHindsight> MacGalempsy: what tuning?
[11:07:40] <MacGalempsy> PID tuning
[11:07:50] <CaptHindsight> settings in the drives or in LCNC?
[11:08:10] <CaptHindsight> or both?
[11:08:49] <MacGalempsy> I have spent a lot of time with the LCNC settings, but I am now thinking about changing the custom header resistors to the stock settings
[11:09:44] <CaptHindsight> header resistors in the drives?
[11:09:54] <enleth> pcw_home: well, the 7i76E we received yesterday took 3 days to get from the US to Europe, further 7 days to get to Poland, then about 3 weeks to get through customs, sitting in a warehouse 5km away from us, and the whole thing cost us $120, which is more than 50% the price of the board itself
[11:10:00] <CaptHindsight> what drives and what motors?
[11:10:44] <MacGalempsy> these are the base drives that are for everything but the spindle.
http://www.copleycontrols.com/Motion/pdf/4122.pdf
[11:11:24] <MacGalempsy> I believe they are the 4212, which just have higher power ratings.
[11:11:33] <enleth> pcw_home: and it was this *quick* only because we could actually deliver all the paperwork in person as soon as their snail mail requests for it arrived, *twice* - otherwise it would be 6 weeks or more
[11:13:00] <enleth> pcw_home: of course, they don't let you actually pick up the package while you're there with all the bank statements, translated invoices and such shit - no, it *must* be delivered by the local postal service, which takes even more time on top of that
[11:15:11] <MacGalempsy> i guess the next step would be to pull the one drive that is giving me issues and see how the header has been changed.
[11:15:28] <bpuk> I guess I've been lucky with shipments from mesa then - they've been the fastest delivery from any US supplier so far. 3 days from order to my door (UK). The customs letter asking for duty and handling turned up two weeks later
[11:16:23] <enleth> MacGalempsy: this seems to be extremely similar to my 423 drives
[11:16:43] <enleth> MacGalempsy: incidentally, I've been going through the setup and tuning a few days ago
[11:17:54] <enleth> MacGalempsy: if you have no idea if the current configuration is correct or not and why, it's indeed a good idea to revert it to the factory values
[11:18:24] <MacGalempsy> enleth: they worked with the original controller board
[11:18:25] <enleth> MacGalempsy: then just start the configuration/tuning procedure according to the manual
[11:18:55] <enleth> did they work with the original motors?
[11:18:56] <MacGalempsy> they use 4 of the same drives for 3 different motors
[11:19:02] <MacGalempsy> they are still the original motors
[11:19:27] <MacGalempsy> I got xyand z tuned after a long time of messing around. but the A axis is giving me a headache
[11:20:06] <enleth> OK, you mean step response tuning of the drive itself, velocity control in linuxcnc or position control?
[11:20:38] <MacGalempsy> velocity control
[11:21:47] <enleth> are you sure the step response in torque mode and voltage mode is correct for all drives?
[11:22:22] <MacGalempsy> It is some strange settings. as P is increased it is like the peak current limit to the drive faults the drive
[11:23:21] <enleth> feed it a square wave at 2-20Hz and connect a scope to the current monitoring pin, see if the step response is clean with no overshooting
[11:23:33] <enleth> then check the tacho voltage in the same manner
[11:23:50] <enleth> clean and reasonably square wave-ish
[11:24:06] <MacGalempsy> i dont think I have that capability
[11:24:43] <enleth> well, that's not good
[11:24:53] <enleth> so at least check the internal headers for anything weird
[11:25:18] <rene-dev> MacGalempsy just use the signal generator from hal
[11:25:36] <enleth> of my 4 drives, one was configured so bizarrely that all it did was run away at a constant speed
[11:25:38] <MacGalempsy> ah. ok
[11:26:13] <MacGalempsy> like when I was messing around with the 24v DC PSU on the bench, it ran nice and smooth, so the motor seems to be good
[11:26:25] <enleth> might work, and it might also work to connect the current mon pin to a field input of a Mesa card if you're using one, to see it on the hal scope
[11:26:51] <enleth> it's not a terribly good scope input stage but it's better than nothing I suppose
[11:27:22] <enleth> MacGalempsy: it might have well ran smooth at constant speed, but what you're after is to verify step response
[11:29:06] <enleth> MacGalempsy: for my drives, I reverted all the internal header parts to factory values, turned all the potentiometers all the way CW or CCW according to the manual (they list factory pot positions somewhere) and basically got a drive as good as brand new as far as configuration goes
[11:31:33] <MacGalempsy> there are four settings in the customizable header. Armature inductance (keep the same), Peak current limit, continuous current limit, and peak current time-limit
[11:31:46] <rene-dev> MacGalempsy also, I would feed it a sine wave for testing, not a square wave.
[11:32:13] <enleth> MacGalempsy: are you sure the inductance of your motors reasonably matches the default setting?
[11:32:57] <MacGalempsy> I think the inductance should be kept same, since they were tuned for these particular motors
[11:33:02] <enleth> rene-dev: after testing with square first, sure, but I wouldn't skip it
[11:33:25] <enleth> MacGalempsy: check to be sure, if you know the inductance of your motors
[11:34:21] <enleth> rene-dev: it's a PID driving a second order system prone to runaway oscillation, skipping step response testing is a bad idea
[11:36:03] <MacGalempsy> it is a rotory axis
[11:36:23] <enleth> yes, it is
[11:36:54] <enleth> doesn't change the fact that it might start oscillating if badly tuned and provoked with a too sudden move
[11:37:03] <rene-dev> enleth yes, but fot testing stuff a sine wave is much less violent. also, a step response is not a command your velocity loop ever gets in reality. in reality the velocity loop should use feed forward, and a step response messes with the feed forward.
[11:37:56] <rene-dev> enleth also, a sine wave will show you if there is any phase shift
[11:43:31] <enleth> rene-dev: valid points, but I still wouldn't skip a step that is rather easy and might save you some cursing down the road if the thing turns out to be completely mistuned, especially on a servo drive with no loop gain pot, where you can't fix it quickly with a few turns of a screwdriver
[11:44:43] <enleth> I just don't feel the saved time is worth it
[11:45:32] <rene-dev> my servodrive also doesn't have a loop gain pot :)
[11:46:20] <enleth> mine had and I'm glad it did, fiddling with the internal header parts is a PITA
[11:48:44] <rene-dev> oh, you cant tune it while its running?
[11:49:31] <enleth> rene-dev: the CC drives have a DIP-20 socket inside, that houses discrete resistors and capacitors
[11:49:38] <enleth> and you swap them to tune the drive
[11:49:51] <enleth> obviously difficult and dangerous to do while it's powered
[11:49:58] <archivist> replace with adjustable ones on leadstill set
[11:50:36] <enleth> rene-dev: but the model I got at least has some of those settings on pots - MacGalempsy's doesn't
[11:50:58] <MacGalempsy> I think these ones do have a pot on the back
[11:51:09] <enleth> just one, for balance, I think
[11:51:28] <MacGalempsy> balance
[11:51:42] <enleth> mine have pots for loop gain, ref gain, tacho gain, integrator frequency and balance
[11:52:16] <enleth> which is everything you need to fine-tune after setting the current limits and armature inductance on the header
[11:52:38] <rene-dev> thats rather useless, with my drives you just type save and it saves the config to flash :D
[11:52:50] <enleth> rene-dev: that's early 90s tech
[11:53:25] <rene-dev> ah. why bother with that?
[11:53:56] <enleth> archivist: if I had to tune those drives on a regular basis, I'd probably make a dautherboard that plugs in the DIP socket and houses several pots
[11:54:15] <enleth> rene-dev: you can get them used for less than $30 a piece if you look well on ebay
[11:54:21] <enleth> rene-dev: can't beat that price
[11:54:34] <enleth> rene-dev: and they're perfectly good, capable servo drives
[11:55:15] <enleth> they were state of the art back then and as far as I know, the way their power section is built is still on par with modern drives
[11:55:19] <enleth> they're just a bitch to set up
[11:56:13] <rene-dev> well, powerstages have changed a bit since the 90s
[11:57:14] <enleth> I bet they did, but those drives are still "relevant"
[11:59:25] <enleth> rene-dev: the original servo drive in my mill was a Bosch Z15-1A SCR-based turd that kept the DC motor winding at AC phase voltage with no galvanic isolation - with one side DC-biased, so the motor "saw" DC
[11:59:30] <enleth> that is not relevant anymore
[12:00:23] <enleth> but a well-designed MOSFET H-bridge still is
[12:01:11] <rene-dev> well, I dont even consider DC motors relevant anymore :D I dont think I can beat $30, but I get close when you take the analog out and encoder input mesa cards into account
[12:01:24] <rene-dev> yes, but mosfets have gotten a lot better recently
[12:01:29] <Tom_L> ac servos are better?
[12:01:39] <rene-dev> yes
[12:01:46] <Tom_L> in what way?
[12:01:53] <Tom_L> <- doesn't know
[12:03:17] <enleth> rene-dev: I'd love to play with modern polyphase servos driven by modern digital amplifiers, but that's well beyond my hobby budget
[12:03:19] <rene-dev> you can buy them new. you can cool them, because the winding is on the outside. you can overload them about 300%. no wear. no runaway if the powerstage fails. just to name a few.
[12:04:05] <rene-dev> just make build mine. less than $100 bom
[12:04:25] <enleth> can't build the motors
[12:04:55] <rene-dev> motors are cheap. you can build the drive.
[12:05:14] <CaptHindsight> what are we arguing about today?
[12:05:29] <Tom_L> nothing i'm aware of
[12:05:45] <rene-dev> https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl/
[12:05:45] <Tom_L> i wondered why ac servos were better than dc
[12:06:28] <CaptHindsight> better for what?
[12:06:43] <Tom_L> driving an axis
[12:07:22] <CaptHindsight> whats the cheapskate coefficient?
[12:07:52] <CaptHindsight> or is this only based on tech specs?
[12:08:09] <enleth> rene-dev: define "cheap", for a motor that can move a heavy Bridgeport-like mill
[12:08:17] <sync> 50€ is possible
[12:08:18] <sync> or free
[12:08:21] <rene-dev> its just physics
[12:08:43] <rene-dev> used, about 50-100 maybe...
[12:09:16] <rene-dev> new a bit more, depending on the quality you want
[12:09:56] <enleth> there's also this small detail about already having the DC servos because they came with the mill
[12:10:42] <enleth> but I'll be sure to check out your drive if I happen to retrofit something that needs new motors
[12:11:02] <rene-dev> dc servos are perfectly fine if they come with the machine and are working - but It still makes sense to replace the driver.
[12:11:13] <CaptHindsight> DC brushed or brushless?
[12:11:34] <rene-dev> its really hard to find replacement dc servos. no one makes them anymore.
[12:11:42] <CaptHindsight> gearbox or no gearbox?
[12:11:47] <enleth> rene-dev: and I did, with the 90s Copley Controls drives because they were still *much* better than the Bosch shit
[12:12:41] <rene-dev> enleth Im really targeting retrofits of robots and mills mit ac/dc servos. but of course you can also use new servos.
[12:12:53] <enleth> rene-dev: BTW, SEM doesn't make those motors anymore, but they provide contact to a company that makes drop-in replacements and services old SEM units
[12:13:04] <enleth> so it's not all hopeless if someone is still using them in production
[12:14:13] <CaptHindsight> are any parts too secret to be sent out........ oh never mind that was someone else
[12:14:50] <enleth> rene-dev: actually I think I've seen Kucharsky ask you about your drives a few days ago and it's possible I'll be doing the electrical work on his planned retrofit, so it's almost a given I'll have a chance to check out those drives sooner or later
[12:15:59] <rene-dev> yes, I joined our channel, and was very interested
[12:16:22] <IchGucksLive> hi
[12:16:41] <rene-dev> im sure you can always get replacements, but its often expensive and unfeasible
[12:18:02] <enleth> fun fact: those old Bosch drives still sell for $250 on ebay
[12:18:12] <enleth> a couple every quarter, but they do
[12:18:37] <IchGucksLive> Made in Germany
[12:18:45] <IchGucksLive> <- SMILESA
[12:18:56] <enleth> because their power scheme is so fucked up you can't easily replace them with anything modern
[12:19:05] <enleth> so people still buy them to keep their machines running
[12:19:34] <enleth> $250 for a 70s piece of crap
[12:19:54] <rene-dev> yes
[12:20:03] <rene-dev> madness
[12:20:38] <enleth> but unless you want to replace the motors as well, fitting newer DC servo drives implies getting a DC power supply that can handle the load
[12:20:48] <IchGucksLive> Most do not even know there are better parts to replace
[12:20:52] <enleth> the non-insulated SCR drives obviously did not need that
[12:21:15] <enleth> and getting a multi-kilowatt 100V+ DC source is not easy
[12:21:20] <rene-dev> you can run my drive non insulated, no problem
[12:21:52] <rene-dev> enleth it is, just buy a 3 phase 3kw transformer, they are only about $300 new
[12:22:45] <rene-dev> ac servos usually run uninsulated, because it saves the transformer
[12:22:49] <IchGucksLive> 100V DC is Standard ELA Musik BOXES
[12:22:57] <enleth> the cheapest I could find locally was $600 for 2.5kW
[12:23:00] <IchGucksLive> they run concerts at 250kW
[12:24:16] <IchGucksLive> All US Themparks got the 100V ELA technik omn Outwards Speeker
[12:24:55] <enleth> IchGucksLive: I needed something closer to 140V, got a couple of 48V insulated supplies to connect in series
[12:26:04] <rene-dev> but if its designed to run uninsulated, why not keep it that way?
[12:31:10] <enleth> well, it's not anymore, the CC manual is quite clear on that point
[12:31:18] <enleth> and I can't say I like that
[12:31:25] <enleth> I mean, running uninsulated
[12:34:42] <rene-dev> why not? almost all modern servo drives and VFDs are uninsulated
[12:36:24] <IchGucksLive> another small fast easy design mill < 300Euros
https://youtu.be/QJLOP4it4ko
[12:38:54] <enleth> rene-dev: you sure about VFDs? at SMPS frequencies there isn't much size difference between an autotransformer and an insulated transformer anyway
[12:40:32] <sync> yes
[12:40:37] <sync> they all run straight from mains
[12:40:38] <rene-dev> there is a smps for the logic
[12:40:57] <rene-dev> but certainly not for the motor
[12:41:21] <rene-dev> go ahead and take one apart
[12:41:52] <rene-dev> the small ones below about 2-3kw dont even have a pfc, just a bridge rectifier, and some basic filters
[12:52:08] <FinboySlick> They (predicably) didn't accept my low bid on the schaublin :P
[13:18:41] <malcom2073_> Never hurts to ask
[13:20:14] <FinboySlick> Yeah, but that throws the ball back in my court and has me wondering just how irresponsible I'm planning to be.
[13:21:02] <FinboySlick> I prefer the "OK, I'm stuck having to move 4000 pounds 1200km" problem to the "should I or should I not" problem ;)
[13:38:16] <IchGucksLive> im done Gn8 tomorrow 4thaxis worm gear PMMA system
[15:41:58] <andypugh> New Binky!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB4NXA_vNWs
[15:46:28] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:59:51] <Wolf_> nice
[16:07:03] <skunkworks> neat - I miss junk yard wars...
[16:25:57] <Deejay> gn8
[18:21:42] <XXCoder> pink-v: here now
[18:24:55] <JT-Mobile> hey XXCoder
[18:25:02] <XXCoder> whats up
[18:26:17] <JT-Mobile> at Lake Taneycomo with some friends
[18:27:35] <XXCoder> at home with family, just having a break while I catch up a little
[18:27:38] <XXCoder> then ill be away
[18:27:56] <XXCoder> christmas party today heh
[18:30:03] <JT-Mobile> a bit early for christmas lol
[18:30:10] <XXCoder> bad timing for everyone
[18:30:20] <XXCoder> this is last day its possible for while
[18:34:50] <andypugh> I think that makes it a “party”
[18:39:34] <JT-Mobile> any excuse is a good one lol
[18:53:42] <XXCoder> back to boring party laters
[18:56:10] <JT-Mobile> later
[18:57:11] <Flipp_> hey all. how does one go about deburring complex parts? deburring a flat plate with a file is fine, but what about inner pocket surfaces that a file can't reach?
[18:57:32] <JT-Mobile> vibratory finishing
[18:57:40] <Flipp_> like tumbling?
[18:57:51] <JT-Mobile> kinda
[19:02:00] <Cromaglious_> wooo hooo I'm listed in the new Project binky episode... 23:44 far bottom right name
[19:04:41] <Cromaglious_> deburr tools
[19:05:09] <Flipp_> huh. looking up vibratory tumblers led me to this... wonder how it works
[19:05:10] <Flipp_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1OXh26hogQ
[19:07:50] <Wolf_> I’m planning to build a pin tumbler as some point that uses those same pins, not magnetic though, just a 5 gallon bucket turning at a angle
[19:08:20] <Cromaglious_> noga has some good one
[19:09:11] <Flipp_> cromaglious_: yeah, looked at 'em and they work for a lot of surfaces, but not for others (imagine a pipe with two inner diameters... depending on geometry the inner "shoulder" is tough/impossible to get with a hand tool)
[19:09:17] <Flipp_> wolf_: like a cement tumbler?
[19:09:25] <Wolf_> sorta
[19:09:59] <Wolf_> I think someone tried that with a small cement mixer
[19:10:33] <Wolf_> wet stainless pin tumbler setup are popular with ammo reloaders
[19:10:34] <JT-Mobile> tumbling can be a bit rough on some parts
[19:15:56] <Wolf_> yeah, when I say tumbler, its a very low angle on the bucket and maybe 1/2” agitators on the sides of the bucket
[19:32:12] <Frank_6> hi
[19:39:47] <JT-Mobile> if you use a tumbler you need to angle the lift things back so they barely lift the parts
[19:40:23] <JT-Mobile> I've built 40 tumblers like that for cleaning nails...
[19:42:13] <JT-Mobile> getting python to work on windblows is fun
