#linuxcnc | Logs for 2016-06-30

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[01:59:37] <KreAture_Zzz> thanks Magnifikus will have a look
[02:35:19] <_abc_> Good day. Can someone please remind me or link to the relevant page on the wiki/docs: which hal signal is the "enable amplifiers" one? The one which turns on when the program is run, and stops when it ends?
[02:40:46] <Deejay> moin
[02:45:30] <archivist> _abc_, stepper ?
[02:46:04] <_abc_> Hmm? To enable/disable high current/power save mode in drivers in general.
[02:46:24] <_abc_> And yes this is for steppers but not only, it also disarms the spindle contactor.
[02:48:26] <archivist> I never reduce power on stepper drives
[02:50:10] <_abc_> archivist: You don't live in a place which has indoor spaces get to +40C regularly.
[02:50:27] <_abc_> archivist: there is no point in leaving drivers on once the job is complete and the machine awaits unloading.
[02:50:51] <archivist> I dont want to lose position, if I have finished I switch off
[02:51:34] <_abc_> Well position loss should not occur in a machine that does not micro step (my case) and which has low pitch lead screws so the table/gantry can't move the motors.
[02:51:53] <_abc_> But I do not rely on that either, the machine is zeroed when turned on again.
[02:55:10] <archivist> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/iocontrol.1.html
[02:57:57] <_abc_> Thanks
[03:00:25] <_abc_> archivist: it's more like http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html @ amp enable out (1st) but I would like a clearer description. It's too detailed with no overview. Been sifting through half a dozen signal names trying to find the right one.
[03:01:25] <archivist> related as one will be driving the other
[03:01:51] <archivist> amp enable is also ok
[03:02:37] <_abc_> I don't understand if amp enable is on when the machine is on .or./.and. when the program runs. I want something that turns off at M2
[03:07:01] <archivist> while there is a signal showing in motion I would not use it to power down
[03:07:36] <archivist> some idiots do use it and wonder why they lose the odd step
[03:07:39] <_abc_> Well you would not, but I would.
[03:07:59] <_abc_> It's not that, it's bad tb6560 drivers which have a problem with this.
[03:08:10] <_abc_> There's a remedy online, you can find it, I did.
[03:10:24] <archivist> the auto power down in some stepper drivers will have the same step loss problems
[03:10:58] <_abc_> That.
[03:11:15] <_abc_> Also it's a programming failure not to provide such a signal anyway.
[03:11:22] <_abc_> On the linuxcnc side.
[03:15:55] <_abc_> There's motion.motion-enabled too which is the signal which is on when the machine is on (not related to running code)
[03:16:16] <_abc_> I could misuse the mist signal to control what I need, but do I have to hack like this?
[04:42:53] <XXCoder> _abc_: I use tb6560 should I do anything to make it run better in linuxcnc?
[05:01:59] <_abc_> XXCoder: depends what board you have.
[05:02:03] <_abc_> It all "depends".
[05:02:12] <XXCoder> mine 3 axis "blue board"
[05:02:28] <_abc_> There are Chinese tb6560 boards which have a 'power save' feature which is not okay.
[05:02:40] <_abc_> There's a forum posting on how to mod them. Only some versions are affected.
[05:02:57] <XXCoder> weird. I wonder how I can find out.
[05:02:59] <_abc_> Don't know much more, sorry. I made my own drivers, don't trust foreign ones.
[05:03:26] <XXCoder> np
[05:03:45] <_abc_> http://www.homediystuff.com/fixing-a-chinese-made-cnc-stepper-motor-driver-board-tb6560-chips/ XXCoder start here. There are several postings on this, this is one.
[05:04:35] <XXCoder> interesting. I got mine to run smoothly but only at quite high speeds like 200mm/s
[05:04:51] <XXCoder> but lower speeds, which is good range for cutting stuff, its still noisy
[05:05:12] <_abc_> Usually you can select microstepping in the driver with jumpers and enter that data into the config.
[05:05:21] <_abc_> Microstepping is smoother than non micro.
[05:05:22] <XXCoder> mines currently at 1/16
[05:05:31] <XXCoder> I need to change it to 1/8
[05:05:46] <XXCoder> the pdf manual was wrong on microstepping configation
[05:05:46] <_abc_> Then it won't likely improve. There are mechanical dampers you can apply to motor axes, called viscous vibration dampers.
[05:06:02] <_abc_> Lower microstepping = higher vibration, most times.
[05:06:27] <XXCoder> ok
[05:06:35] <_abc_> Also setting decay mode to 25% or 50% may improve it or not. It all depends on the machine. Careful with decay mode you can pump the power supply with that if not provided with a clamp.
[05:06:42] <XXCoder> the article picture matches mine, though its 4 axis version and mine is 3
[05:06:53] <_abc_> Ok. As I said, ymmv.
[05:06:55] <XXCoder> mines at 25% now
[05:07:12] <_abc_> Getting some viscous axis vibration dampers is probably your best bet if vibration is the only concern
[05:07:17] <XXCoder> "pump the power supply"?
[05:07:47] <_abc_> Yeah decay mode basically allows some current from the spinning motor phases to go into the psu line.
[05:08:14] <_abc_> Under certain circumstances this can raise the supply line dangerously. I have a dynamic clamp on the supply for that reason.
[05:08:40] <_abc_> Just get vibration dampers and see if it helps, there are non electronic solutions to vibration.
[05:09:12] <XXCoder> lemme get the video a second
[05:09:25] <_abc_> I can't watch video right now.
[05:09:30] <XXCoder> oh darn
[05:12:54] <XXCoder> _abc_: I used this config for mine
[05:13:00] <XXCoder> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/49-basic-configuration/23737-configuration-of-tb6560-controller-variants#23847
[05:17:25] <XXCoder> man https://www.eliomotors.com/final-phase-in-pictures-the-first-e-series-vehicle-elio-momentum-v60/?
[05:17:32] <XXCoder> cant wait to own one.
[05:30:57] <jthornton> morning
[05:41:41] <_abc_> XXCoder: duct tape is involved, I am sure it will work well https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/3Axzldpl0QnDLAVutqowS19c_-Ais1QGQNAIiSNHUeatzf_ppzUjU1HumPV5LcSMCogwemiAkBd_Lrk7V3P2OnE1RiWMNlTq99VrVpz98jnAZ4RKAlcbPIkENbmQh5d3h5dcIjCMS5ta3uy6HvYs9LrHyhyVatVdI0PCXAWU4YDM8X0=s0-d-e1-ft#http://go.eliomotors.com/hs-fs/hubfs/IMG_1825_-_Read_Seat_Right_Trim_MEDIUM-RES.jpg?t=1467215149676&width=375
[05:41:48] <_abc_> The project
[05:42:09] <XXCoder> lol well it S engineering prototype
[05:42:14] <XXCoder> *IS
[05:42:22] <XXCoder> they will make 23 of those
[05:42:32] <XXCoder> lots of testing and physical impact tests at end
[05:42:48] <_abc_> I just fail to see the point of using 3 wheels.
[05:42:58] <_abc_> 4 wheels is much more "credible"
[05:43:01] <XXCoder> its far less wide
[05:43:12] <XXCoder> therefore massively less air pushing
[05:43:30] <XXCoder> front is nearly as wide as normal car in terms of tire placement, so it drives like car
[05:43:43] <_abc_> Not really true. 3 wheel motorbikes are abundant, surely they could have used one as a base.
[05:44:08] <XXCoder> and motorbukes is all priced $20,000 or more
[05:44:17] <XXCoder> they want to price it for 6,800 base price
[05:44:23] <_abc_> You can't make money on that.
[05:44:27] <XXCoder> they can
[05:44:31] <_abc_> Not in usa.
[05:44:37] <XXCoder> they are using older tech
[05:44:47] <XXCoder> only thing thats "new" is their motor
[05:44:53] <_abc_> I'm in Eastern Europe and a new car (Dacia Renault) starts at ~$7000 base without taxes.
[05:45:13] <_abc_> They do not make real money with that base price, most models sold are uprated.
[05:45:56] <XXCoder> fun. cheapest NEW car I can see is $15,000 or so
[05:46:14] <_abc_> http://www.autoevolution.com/news/3-wheel-in-line-motorcycle-gets-closer-to-mass-production-video-55034.html note three wheel bike does not always mean what one thinks it means
[05:46:14] <XXCoder> $12,000 actually, that umm french looking car in Cars movie
[05:46:54] <XXCoder> interesting
[05:47:25] <_abc_> http://www.bikeexif.com/3-wheel-motorcycle then there's 3.2 wheel ones. Sigh. Looks like a tank.
[05:47:34] <XXCoder> lol
[05:47:51] <XXCoder> they all look like 3 wheeled motorbikes. I want 3 wheeled car
[05:48:02] <XXCoder> I actually sat in P3
[05:48:07] <XXCoder> it was pretty awesome.
[05:48:18] <XXCoder> large football player can easily fit in one
[05:50:15] <_abc_> XXCoder: $12000 is probably where $7000 gets with taxes and new car salesman cut.
[05:50:33] <XXCoder> elio direct sells
[05:50:41] <XXCoder> so no saleperson issues
[05:50:48] <_abc_> Last time I checked that got Tesla in trouble?
[05:51:46] <Sync> XXCoder: motorbikes are significantly cheaper
[05:51:53] <XXCoder> and not a car
[05:52:05] <Sync> yes, but you can already get a car at that price
[05:52:08] <Sync> that is not a 3 wheeler
[05:52:14] <XXCoder> used
[05:53:51] <XXCoder> Sync: why i want elio is its combation of small car, high mpg, low price, and new car finally
[05:55:01] <_abc_> I think he means you can get a new car too. For $6500.
[05:55:21] <XXCoder> $6,800 actually. I am getting auto though so it means $7,200
[05:55:29] <_abc_> I wonder why they ceased making the BMW C1s. They were very succesfull everywhere. An electric version would not have been bad.
[05:55:39] <XXCoder> I techinically can drive stick but I dont really like it.
[05:56:02] <_abc_> www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-c1-e/
[05:56:39] <XXCoder> does look interesting
[05:56:46] <XXCoder> too bad it dont seem to sell?
[05:56:50] <_abc_> That's a 1990s bike heh.
[05:57:05] <_abc_> Gives "ahead of its time" a new meaning <wink>
[05:57:27] <XXCoder> you should love 1960s space stuff
[05:57:34] <XXCoder> so retrofuturistic stuff
[05:58:17] <_abc_> http://www.autoevolution.com/news/persu-the-rain-drop-car-31151.html 1920s perhaps? ;)
[05:58:22] <_abc_> That's one from my country.
[05:58:38] <XXCoder> lol pretty cool
[05:58:50] <XXCoder> Tucker is one of my favorites
[05:59:02] <XXCoder> so advanced for its era
[05:59:18] <XXCoder> theres stuff found there not added to other companies cars for decade or more
[06:00:58] <Sync> not used, new XXCoder
[06:01:20] <XXCoder> how? never saw any new car less than $10,000
[06:01:24] <XXCoder> cheapest so far is fiat
[06:01:34] <Sync> _abc_: it did not sell at all
[06:01:45] <_abc_> Hm? What did not?
[06:02:25] <_abc_> Sync:?
[06:05:16] <_abc_> hihi Maruti/Mahindra/Tata may be less than $5000
[06:06:02] <XXCoder> tata mini $3000 car
[06:06:13] <XXCoder> annocanced in 2012, still not here
[06:06:26] <Sync> _abc_: the c1
[06:06:45] <_abc_> Sync: the c1 sold very well and has developed a cult movement.
[06:06:50] <_abc_> There are clubs to this day.
[06:07:24] <_abc_> http://www.c1forum.co.uk/ even in countries where it did not sell so well
[06:07:42] <Sync> so why did bmw then cancel production due to low sales if it sold so well?
[06:07:54] <XXCoder> limited scope I guess?
[06:09:10] <_abc_> I don't think they could make much money on it, being made in Germany.
[06:09:28] <_abc_> There's a general problem with manufacturing in Europe since the 1990s at least, mostly known as "taxes"
[06:09:44] <_abc_> Which is why most manufacturing in Europe has ceased since then.
[06:09:52] <Sync> they canceled due to low sales
[06:09:55] <_abc_> The competition from the far east was too strong.
[06:10:04] <_abc_> Yes but the only reason for low sales was cost.
[06:10:39] <_abc_> Honda gyro was a mostly comparable model from Japan, also available with a cover for the driver, and was hugely popular. At one time 90% of pizza deliveries in a certain city I was in were gyros.
[06:11:02] <_abc_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Gyro
[06:11:05] <_abc_> see canopy
[06:11:26] <Sync> only that the honda gyro is something completely different
[06:11:32] <_abc_> Not really.
[06:11:42] <_abc_> The number of wheels is not what counts here.
[06:11:46] <Sync> it does
[06:11:52] <Sync> and the superstructure is not crash rated
[06:12:00] <Sync> which means, that you have to wear a helmet
[06:12:00] <_abc_> That's true.
[06:12:18] <Sync> hence, completely different vehicles
[06:12:21] <_abc_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GyroUP-MRDroofed.jpg up to a point
[06:12:51] <XXCoder> that'd make a great ice cream vehicle.
[06:13:01] <XXCoder> expecially in crowded areas
[06:13:10] <_abc_> I think easily 90% of sold gyros are used as delivery vehicles.
[06:13:24] <_abc_> Typically fast food but not only.
[06:13:56] <Sync> XXCoder: just looked a new lada runs for about 7.5k$
[06:14:24] <XXCoder> third result: "10 lada jokes"
[06:15:42] <_abc_> http://www.motor1.com/news/14495/renault-dacia-launches-sandero-14-lpg-in-france-at-eur-5900/ this is one of the cars made in this country I alluded to.
[06:16:00] <XXCoder> What do you call a Lada at the top of a hill? A miracle
[06:16:04] <XXCoder> lol
[06:16:23] <XXCoder> What do you call several Ladas at the top of a hill? A scrapheap
[06:16:34] <_abc_> What's a Fiat driver who tries to show off? A Chrysler driver (Chrysler-Fiat company)
[06:17:02] <XXCoder> 100 lada version is a factory heh
[06:17:15] <XXCoder> fix or repair daily
[06:17:18] <_abc_> Note I am not advertising for that car, but most cabbies in this city are of that brand.
[06:17:39] <_abc_> I think you will find Eastern European cars more fixable than Western and Japanese ones.
[06:18:06] <XXCoder> lol well most euro cars isnt sold in usa
[06:19:06] <_methods> you'd have a very hard time finding a new car in the USA that was under $12,000
[06:19:13] <XXCoder> indeed
[06:19:30] <_methods> and it would probably have to be custom ordered
[06:19:45] <_abc_> _methods: figures. $7000 car + import + taxes + new car salesman "fee" = $12000+
[06:20:08] <_methods> yeah i think the nissan versa is the "cheapest" car you can buy new right now
[06:20:35] <_methods> and the model that is $12900 you won't find with that packages that make it that cheap
[06:20:47] <_methods> s/that/the
[06:21:24] <XXCoder> man i really forward to elio.
[06:21:24] <_methods> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/04/24/cheapest-cars-price-mpg-disappointment-nissan-versa-smart/2110083/
[06:21:37] <_methods> looks like that cheapest car you can get "new" is the smart fortwo
[06:21:47] <_methods> with the standard dealership packages
[06:21:48] <XXCoder> did you see above elio link, about engineering prototypes being built? nice pics
[06:22:41] <_methods> no i don't really care about cars
[06:22:47] <_methods> i've never owned a "car"
[06:22:51] <Sync> Few can or will drive a stick-shift nowadays.
[06:22:52] <Sync> kek
[06:22:53] <_methods> always trucks
[06:23:07] <XXCoder> lol ok. you could park elio in your truck back probably
[06:23:09] <_methods> trucks and suv
[06:23:29] <_methods> my mom had a fiat spider lol
[06:24:00] <_methods> yeah you can't find a car on a lot in the USA without automatic anymore
[06:24:10] <_methods> you have to order it with manual transmission
[06:24:10] <XXCoder> elio is one of em. will be.
[06:24:20] <XXCoder> I plan to order auto as I dont care about manual
[06:28:20] <Sync> I never understood why one would want a tq converter auto
[06:28:26] <Sync> it feels so wrong driving one
[06:30:00] <malcom2073> Sync: Traffic
[06:30:38] <malcom2073> That's about the only real reason I've found, I prefer a stick in all cases except
[06:30:45] <XXCoder> heh probably hit each gear number like ocd trying to count to 3 (or 4) each time
[06:30:54] <archivist> I had a Hilman made 1960 had magnetic powder clutches, could spin wheels no loss (except current to coils)
[06:31:48] <Sync> malcom2073: idk, I never felt like the manual was annoying me in traffic
[06:32:00] <archivist> Smiths easidrive gearbox used the dynamo across the clutch coil to start off
[06:32:08] <malcom2073> Sync: After an hour or two of stop and go, it gets annoying to me heh
[06:33:41] <_methods> Sync: it's actually laziness
[06:33:56] <_methods> lazy turds don't want to shift
[06:34:07] <_methods> they're too busy drinking gallons of soda
[06:34:19] <_methods> and talkin on their damn cell phones
[06:34:29] <Sync> I've been through enough lengthy stop and gos, it's not an issue
[06:34:38] <malcom2073> Sync: Then you're a special snowflake :-P
[06:35:01] <Sync> possibly
[07:15:08] <jthornton> dang amazon and their add on program
[07:15:55] <serf> lol, they definitely know what they are doing with it.
[07:24:46] <_methods> hahah
[07:24:53] <_methods> prime day today?
[07:25:13] <_methods> ah it is prime day
[07:28:28] <_methods> oh nm
[07:28:30] <_methods> july 12
[07:46:32] <archivist> I am immune from amazon :)
[07:50:40] <_methods> that must be a great relief to your wallet lol
[07:51:46] <malcom2073> I like amazon, I'm willing to pay the "fast tax" on some things
[07:51:53] <archivist> less immune from old toys on fleabay
[07:52:07] <_methods> yeah fleabay and amazon are my vices
[07:52:13] <_methods> i guess it's better than smoking crack
[07:52:24] <malcom2073> Eh, at least smoking crack eventually kills you so you stop spending money
[07:52:28] <_methods> haha
[07:53:43] <_methods> both equally destructive to bank accounts
[07:53:51] <_methods> i just get to keep my teeth though
[07:54:00] <archivist> I see a few hours doing up an old tool far better than a night on the beer, you get to keep the tool
[07:54:28] <_methods> indeed
[07:55:25] <archivist> todays project fire up a 215A http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_10e.htm
[07:56:30] <archivist> it knocked the mains out yesterday, replaced the input filter and it is a runner
[09:01:55] <MacGalempsy> good morning
[09:01:59] <malcom2073> Morning
[09:02:18] <MacGalempsy> hey hey malcom. how goes the 2 new routers?
[09:05:23] <malcom2073> Hah, they don't go
[09:05:41] <malcom2073> No time or money for them :)
[09:08:33] <MacGalempsy> ah I feel you on projects like that...
[09:09:11] <MacGalempsy> hey you got a full time gig yet? Want to go mining in Utah?
[09:09:31] <malcom2073> No, and HAH, hell no :)
[09:09:51] <MacGalempsy> rags to riches baby! lol
[09:10:15] <malcom2073> Or rags to dirty rags :P
[09:26:52] <MacGalempsy> everyone always finds something
[09:27:14] <MacGalempsy> it may not be what they exactly wanted, but something always presents itself
[09:27:39] <remy_> Bonjour,je voudrais quelques conseils pour un instalation linuxcnc sur ubuntu
[09:30:50] <_abc_> En francais?!
[09:44:36] <enleth> my father has an online shop with a contact form clearly labeled "please use English only" and everyone is happy to comply (with varying results, but at least they try) - except the French
[09:46:12] <malcom2073> Yes, I'm sure I'd find rocks :)
[09:48:55] <_abc_> enleth: I am sure there's a lot of someones in Quebec who have the exact same thing on the wall, in French. And now, probably coming up in France too.
[09:49:49] <malcom2073> enleth: Does he have that labeled in french?
[09:50:00] <CaptHindsight> just have fun with it vs complain, reply in French with s southern US accent or similar
[09:50:02] <malcom2073> "I said do not enter" "I don't know english" "But I said it in english!" :P
[09:50:29] <enleth> malcom2073: everything else is in English and they somehow manage to find the form and fill it out
[09:52:42] <CaptHindsight> it's how the French also have fun, it's like they have a different word for everything
[09:53:08] <enleth> anyways, he just uses Google Translate to write a reply, checking it for obvious mistakes with his basic knowledge of French and more than once a French customer was delighted that the shop staff can write such good French
[09:53:12] <enleth> if only they knew
[09:53:24] <tiwake> enleth: except the french... lol
[09:55:48] <CaptHindsight> http://rinkworks.com/dialect/ more fun to filter it through this first
[09:57:25] <enleth> do the French have their version of hillbillies?
[10:42:38] <_methods> the french are hillbillies
[10:42:44] <_methods> living in a roman backwater
[10:42:45] <gregcnc> oops http://www.the-rise.com/loopofdoom kickstarter funded even
[10:44:02] <_methods> dirty gauls
[10:45:47] <gregcnc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-TOV-NBD70 great for parallel parking? but cars do that themselves now
[10:47:07] <Jymmm> except in NY
[10:48:48] <CaptHindsight> wow that would come in handy for?
[10:49:17] <gregcnc> practical applications seem limited
[10:49:45] <CaptHindsight> I'd rather see people that can't drive not get a license to do so
[10:50:33] <CaptHindsight> is parking really that difficult?
[10:50:36] <archivist> that idea dates back to the 1970's iirc
[10:52:38] <CaptHindsight> on the other hand it's all about profit, so charge em a ton for it if they want it
[10:54:12] <CaptHindsight> plus self driving cars keep idiots off the wheel and makes it easier to track everyone's movements
[10:55:29] <roycroft> so-called self-driving cars are, indeed, goign to keep idiots off the wheel
[10:55:37] <roycroft> but that's going to make driving even more dangerous
[10:55:58] <roycroft> because the idiots will be so off the wheel that they will pay zero attention, even when the car yells at them to intervene
[10:56:05] <malcom2073> Self-driving cars don't have to bep erfect... just better than people. And that's not hard
[10:56:13] <malcom2073> They don't yell at a person to intervene, they stop the car
[10:56:56] <roycroft> if that's the case it's not always the right thing to do
[10:57:13] <malcom2073> Ah, but it doesn't have to always be... like I said, just better than a human
[10:57:26] <CaptHindsight> roycroft: well you really don't matter, ask any rich person, you're only somewhat valuable if you provide them with revenue
[10:57:41] <Deejay> re
[10:57:59] <CaptHindsight> just buy the car
[10:58:23] <BeachBumPete> wow
[10:59:01] <roycroft> i'm still not sure how well self-driving cars will be accepted
[10:59:15] <_methods> 100% by me
[10:59:18] <malcom2073> They've been accepted fairly well so far, there's several thousand on the road
[10:59:22] <_methods> i absolutely hate driving
[10:59:47] <roycroft> i think that millenials will probably throng to them
[10:59:56] <roycroft> but older folks will still avoid them
[11:00:05] <roycroft> because they like to think they have control of things
[11:00:21] <roycroft> so it might take a generation before they're universally accepted
[11:00:26] <_methods> if i never had to drive again, i couldn't be happier
[11:00:33] <SpeedEvil> I am legally unable to drive.
[11:00:37] <SpeedEvil> (health reasons)
[11:00:41] <roycroft> i enjoy driving
[11:00:45] <roycroft> i am allergic to freeways though
[11:00:46] <SpeedEvil> A self-driving car would be so freeing.
[11:00:49] <_methods> it's a detestable waste of time
[11:01:04] <roycroft> i could enjoy having a car that drives itself
[11:01:20] <_methods> imagine being able to use that time you waste behind a wheel productively
[11:01:23] <_methods> or watching porn
[11:01:23] <roycroft> i'm one of the old people who would accept a self-driving car
[11:01:39] <gregcnc> that's why it's a race to get where you're going, less time wasted
[11:01:42] <roycroft> when driving alone i get to think a lot
[11:01:46] <malcom2073> [11:34:30] <_methods> or watching porn
[11:01:47] <roycroft> i consider that productive use of time
[11:01:50] <malcom2073> ^^^ True reason it'll take off
[11:01:53] <roycroft> when i'm driving with others we converse
[11:01:57] <CaptHindsight> _methods: what's so hard about that now?
[11:01:58] <roycroft> again, a productive use of time
[11:02:09] <roycroft> i don't consider driving a non-productive use of time at all
[11:02:22] <roycroft> but it does limit how one can use one's time productively
[11:02:31] <BeachBumPete> we have been driving an hour both ways for weeks now...I am SICK of highway droning
[11:02:48] * roycroft would speculate that a lot of people watch porn while driving already
[11:02:55] <_methods> hehe
[11:03:09] <BeachBumPete> it is AMAZING some of the idiots on the road are still alive
[11:03:22] <CaptHindsight> they will probably mandate them under the guise of safety
[11:03:30] <roycroft> sadly, it's the idiots who often survive, while taking out the innocent
[11:03:36] <CaptHindsight> but they are just easier to track
[11:03:40] <BeachBumPete> true
[11:03:59] <CaptHindsight> less autonomy
[11:04:01] <roycroft> i was driving home the other day
[11:04:09] <BeachBumPete> I can't believe how some of these people drive I have had SO many close calls due to complete stupidity
[11:04:13] <roycroft> there was a mom driving in the opposite direction
[11:04:16] <roycroft> with her window down
[11:04:21] <roycroft> talking on a cell phone (hand-held)
[11:04:27] <roycroft> with her son in the front seat
[11:04:50] <roycroft> so i yelled "Put down that phone! How DARE you endanger your child's life like that!"
[11:04:55] <roycroft> she freaked outr
[11:04:56] <roycroft> out
[11:05:01] <roycroft> her son freaked out
[11:05:05] <SpeedEvil> yay
[11:05:06] <roycroft> i'm sure dad heard about it that night
[11:05:29] <CaptHindsight> she sounds like a source of extra income for the local police farce
[11:05:38] <BeachBumPete> You are lucky she did not call the cops and have them arrest you for distracting her LOL
[11:05:56] <gregcnc> cell use has been illegal in IL for what a year or 6mo, you still see plenty of people. Seems like you can't stop at a light without 60% checking their phones
[11:06:00] <roycroft> i've shamed cell phone drivers several times
[11:06:13] <roycroft> this woman was unusual though
[11:06:18] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: and texting
[11:06:30] <roycroft> in my experience, it's generally men who blatently hold their phone up to their ear and use it in the car
[11:06:38] <roycroft> women discretely text
[11:06:42] <BeachBumPete> I check my phone at lights often but I have hands free bluetooth on the stereo so I seldom have it in my hands
[11:06:46] <roycroft> i see women glancing down at their lap all the time
[11:06:49] <roycroft> and i know what they're doing
[11:06:53] <gregcnc> discretely by looking in their lap while driving
[11:08:12] <CaptHindsight> if they wanted to keep these drivers off the streets they could but it's a good revenue stream
[11:08:23] <CaptHindsight> why pass up easy money?
[11:08:26] <roycroft> i don't think it's a primary offense in oregon yet
[11:08:32] <roycroft> but i'm not certain about that
[11:08:45] <roycroft> for the longest time seat belts were not a primary offense here
[11:08:57] <roycroft> i never understood that
[11:09:00] <CaptHindsight> roycroft: they start out like that, like the seatbelt laws, then a few years later it becomes a primary
[11:09:12] <roycroft> well, in the 1960s i could understand it
[11:09:13] <BeachBumPete> what is really bad is these idiots have a stupid wreck on the freeway and hurt people then the traffic gets backed up for MILES AND MILES for HOURS.... its really maddening sometimes.
[11:09:18] <CaptHindsight> boil the frog slowly
[11:09:22] <roycroft> but it should have been a primary offense by 1970
[11:09:40] <roycroft> and it wasn't until the '90s
[11:10:04] <roycroft> i'm not one for mandatory sentences, generally
[11:10:10] <roycroft> and i think we put too many people in prison
[11:10:27] <CaptHindsight> another industry
[11:10:46] <roycroft> but if a person is involved in an accident and it can be proven that a cell phone was in use at the time i think there should be a mandatory jail term
[11:11:06] <roycroft> fines mean nothing to rich people
[11:11:33] <roycroft> a few weeks in the pokey, that's another story
[11:11:34] <CaptHindsight> if it was really about safety then people would really have to learn to drive
[11:12:03] <CaptHindsight> but if you are old enough and can see over the wheel and pass the basic test you get a license
[11:12:13] <roycroft> i also am an advocate for periodically retaking the road test as part of renewing one's driver's license
[11:12:29] <roycroft> it's ridiculous that you take a driving test when you're 18 and then you're good for life
[11:12:42] <CaptHindsight> it's not about convenience, or keeping traffic moving
[11:17:27] <Loetmichel> what is a primary offense?
[11:17:57] <roycroft> a primary offense is something that a cop can pull you over for
[11:18:17] <roycroft> a non-primary offense is one that they can't stop you for, but can add a citation if they pull you over for something else
[11:18:37] <gregcnc> they can stop you for whatever they please
[11:18:41] <CaptHindsight> they use any reason now, weaving 1" over the line for example
[11:18:41] <roycroft> no they can't
[11:18:48] <roycroft> but they can almost always make up a reason to stop you
[11:18:54] <gregcnc> they will and do
[11:18:57] <CaptHindsight> any light that is out, well maybe not the dome light
[11:19:16] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[11:19:17] <roycroft> believe me
[11:19:24] <roycroft> i've gotten many driving while hippie stops
[11:19:30] <roycroft> i know they're good at finding excuses
[11:19:31] <Loetmichel> thx
[11:19:33] <CaptHindsight> they make make stuff up now
[11:20:02] <CaptHindsight> they didn't notice that you had a plate until they pulled you over
[11:20:03] <gregcnc> I didn't see your seat belt, oh it's on, but I smell something funny
[11:20:10] <CaptHindsight> yup
[11:20:18] <roycroft> "the reason i stopped you is that the air looks low in your left rear tire. do you mind if i search your vehicle?
[11:20:19] <roycroft> "
[11:20:25] <roycroft> that's typically what i get
[11:20:27] <CaptHindsight> I started calling it pre-nazi
[11:21:02] <Loetmichel> i noticed that your police is pretty assy
[11:21:08] <roycroft> i *never* consent to a vehicle search
[11:21:11] <roycroft> and they *always* act
[11:21:15] <roycroft> ask, rather
[11:21:30] <roycroft> and when i decline i get the "what do you have to hide?" line
[11:21:34] <Loetmichel> not that we have not the same kind here in germany, but i think in way less percentage than in the u.s.
[11:21:50] <malcom2073> roycroft: You must not be white
[11:21:55] <roycroft> i am white
[11:21:57] <roycroft> but i'm a hippie
[11:22:01] <malcom2073> Ah heh
[11:22:04] <malcom2073> profiling ftl
[11:22:05] <roycroft> i have long hair
[11:22:12] <Loetmichel> when i got pulled over here ion gernman in the last 16 years i always did something substantial wrong
[11:22:15] <roycroft> i have a peace sign in my rear window
[11:22:19] <roycroft> i use biofuel
[11:22:28] <malcom2073> I never get pulled over, but I look "normal"
[11:22:55] <gregcnc> well if the smell the french fries behind your car they might just want a hamburger
[11:23:04] <Loetmichel> s/ion gernman/ in germany
[11:23:04] <roycroft> in eugene, if you are in danger and you need the cops right away, when you call 911 you don't say "someone is attacking me"
[11:23:13] <roycroft> you say "someone is hugging a tree"
[11:23:18] <malcom2073> heh
[11:24:06] <Loetmichel> gregcnc: i used to drive my diesel car with 50% canoal oil in the tank
[11:24:21] <Loetmichel> it ALWAYS smeled like deep fried fast food ;)
[11:24:25] <Loetmichel> smelled
[11:24:26] <CaptHindsight> I had them walk into my shop one night since someone forgot to lock one of the doors..
[11:24:28] <gregcnc> rapeseed
[11:24:54] <Loetmichel> canola oil
[11:24:55] <CaptHindsight> they were out checking for open doors and letting themselves in
[11:25:03] <Loetmichel> yes, made of rapeseed
[11:25:10] <gregcnc> that name didn't sound good here, so they call it canola
[11:25:27] <CaptHindsight> they made up some story about an alarm next door that doesn't exist
[11:26:16] <Loetmichel> its just sad that the newer Omega cant take that
[11:26:31] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: have you noticed the rise in roadblocks recently?
[11:26:34] <Loetmichel> because of the common rail BMW engine
[11:26:49] <Loetmichel> that would clog its injectors if driven with pure canola oil
[11:27:22] <gregcnc> no but I read about them occasionally
[11:27:34] <Loetmichel> was funny to stand at the grovery store wit a shiopping cart full of 1 l oil bottles and fill the tank
[11:27:46] <Loetmichel> the looks from the other shoppers... :-)(
[11:27:52] <Loetmichel> grocery
[11:28:35] <gregcnc> 1L bottle couldn't be very cost effective, restaurant supply 20L or 100L would be much cheaper, no?
[11:28:43] <Loetmichel> no!
[11:28:57] <Loetmichel> restaurant supply back then was about 1.10 eur per litre
[11:29:02] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: what would actually cause the clogs in the injectors?
[11:29:23] <Loetmichel> the 1 litre bottles from "Aldi" were 97 ct ;)
[11:29:43] <Sync> CaptHindsight: the actual cause is lack of lubricity that kills the common rail pump
[11:29:44] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: the canola oil is to thick for the pumps
[11:29:56] <Loetmichel> Sync: right
[11:30:13] <Loetmichel> and not right
[11:30:40] <Loetmichel> even if the pump would survive the injectors would not dispense the right amount of fuel because of the difference in viscosity
[11:31:13] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: in older cars you can drive 100% pure canola oli
[11:31:15] <Loetmichel> oil
[11:31:26] <Sync> it doesn't matter after all, it can compensate for that, but the lubricity kills it dead
[11:31:36] <Loetmichel> you just have to install a secondary tank with a heating coil from the engine coolant
[11:31:56] <gregcnc> canola has lower lubricity than diesel?
[11:31:57] <Loetmichel> start with diesel, drive until secondary tank is at 70°C then switch to canola
[11:32:06] <Sync> gregcnc: yes
[11:32:12] <Loetmichel> at that temperature its similar in viscosity to diesel fuel
[11:33:40] <Sync> the high pressure pumps run relatively close to the maximum pressure diesel can sustain without failing to provide a film
[11:34:03] <Loetmichel> but its useless now, as the prices for canola oil are now above the prices of diesel here in germany
[11:34:37] <CaptHindsight> ok, so the lower the temp the higher the viscosity of the canola oil..
[11:35:02] <Sync> just run heating oil ;)
[11:35:14] <Loetmichel> Sync: thats tax evasion
[11:35:18] <CaptHindsight> so does the >70 C canola oil still damage the pump?
[11:35:34] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: as far as i know: yes
[11:35:39] <Sync> yes CaptHindsight, as the lubricity is lower
[11:36:05] <Sync> sure, but it is cheaper Loetmichel :>
[11:36:06] <BeachBumPete> my old customer in tennessee who had me building all the recumbent bike parts ran a fullsize Diesel Dodge ram Xtra cab on recycled oil
[11:36:17] <Loetmichel> the >70°c is only needed for OLD diesels that can cope with cold oil to fix the "too less fuel thru the injectors" problem
[11:36:32] <BeachBumPete> that truck always had a big old black coating on the back of it everywhere he went I don't know why
[11:36:42] <Loetmichel> Sync: my friends had an old MAN truck
[11:37:24] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16316 <- that one
[11:37:37] <Loetmichel> its had "vielstoffmotor" in the papers, not diesel
[11:37:58] <CaptHindsight> average diesel price in the US is $0.64/L
[11:38:39] <Loetmichel> so we drove it with a mix of old hydraulic oil, old car engine oil, some 100 liter of vegetable waste oil from a fastfood-restaurant and some gasoline to make it more willing to flow thru the pumps ;)
[11:39:10] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: i just filled my diesl up for 1.24 eur/liter
[11:39:26] <Loetmichel> .. and you complain about fuel prices ;)
[11:39:37] <CaptHindsight> all this fracking has kept prices low here
[11:39:42] <roycroft> the original diesel engines ran on peanut oil
[11:40:07] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: it's half the price of what it was just 2-3 years ago
[11:40:08] <Loetmichel> roycroft: the MAN diesel eats anything that burns and fits the pump
[11:40:22] <gregcnc> coal dust even
[11:40:25] <Loetmichel> the pump has a secondary engine oil circulation
[11:40:54] <Loetmichel> it can even run on pure alcohol... IN DIESEL mode! ;)
[11:41:15] <Loetmichel> we tried
[11:41:18] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[11:41:37] <Frank_12> hi
[11:41:56] <Loetmichel> it has 1:38 compression. it ignites ANYthing that can burn ;)
[11:42:04] <Loetmichel> and its direct injection
[11:42:47] <gregcnc> how big is the starter?
[11:43:18] <CaptHindsight> it has a coal fired generator to power the starter
[11:43:40] <gregcnc> pony engine?
[11:45:42] <enleth> Loetmichel: the engine might have been designed for military use, that's a typical feature of military truck engines
[11:45:50] <Loetmichel> enleth: it is
[11:45:55] <Loetmichel> it was a military truck
[11:46:07] <Loetmichel> before we made a RV of it ;)
[11:46:11] <enleth> well, that makes sense
[11:46:42] <enleth> note, though, that using weird fuel mixes might be bad for engine life and/or necessitate frequent engine overhaul
[11:47:39] <enleth> military engines of all kinds are usually tough in the field, but require frequent maintenance or tend to trade fuel flexibility for excessive part wear
[11:47:40] <Loetmichel> it lived years on that weird mix
[11:48:40] <enleth> nice, this is not usual for military engines
[11:48:57] <enleth> unless this mix happens to match something it was actually optimized for, by chance
[11:49:03] <Loetmichel> enleth: its german
[11:49:07] <Loetmichel> and build in the 6ties
[11:49:11] <Loetmichel> 60ties
[11:49:15] <Jymmm> roycroft: Peanut oil is AWESOME for frying potatoes! So, wheres does the deep fryer connect to the engine block?
[11:49:29] <Loetmichel> it lives forever ;)
[11:50:02] <Loetmichel> also it has 8.5 liters displacement
[11:50:08] <Loetmichel> ... and 150 HP
[11:50:18] <Loetmichel> it doesnt wear ;)
[11:50:52] <Jymmm> $2.50/gal == $0.11/liter
[11:51:17] <Jymmm> Whats the avg MPG for diesel?
[11:51:41] <Jymmm> since most disels these days are trucks
[11:51:52] <archivist> your maths is a bit out
[11:52:01] <Jymmm> https://www.google.com/#q=2.50+per+gallon+to+litre
[11:52:26] <archivist> whose gal as well
[11:52:28] <enleth> Loetmichel: still, that's more like an exception than a rule. most military stuff requires constant maintenance because the army does have all the maintenance and supply network behind their lines anyway and it's cheaper to make an overpowered engine that needs a bunch of conscripts and a mechanic clean and oil it weekly, than one that runs with no such maintenance
[11:52:30] <Jymmm> archivist: blame google =)
[11:52:49] <Jymmm> archivist: Says "US Gallon"
[11:53:43] <CaptHindsight> $2.50/gal = 2.50 / 3.785 = 0.66
[11:53:55] <CaptHindsight> per Liter
[11:54:05] <Loetmichel> enleth: in the 60ties german truck manufacturers made engines and trucks that lived forever
[11:54:07] <enleth> Loetmichel: that's a bit less pronounced in land vehicles, but anything that flies and was made for military use usually requires as much maintenance downtime as it did flight time
[11:54:34] <Loetmichel> they soon saw their error and made them as crappy as any other manufacturer ;)
[11:54:35] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Thanks google (you're right)
[11:55:42] <CaptHindsight> 1 US gallon per fortnight = 3.12947403 × 10-9 m3 / s
[11:56:38] <enleth> Loetmichel: that's actually interesting - I mean, was that a requirement of the West German military who ordered the design, or something MAN did on their own?
[11:57:14] <Loetmichel> IIRC it was an adapted "civil" truck
[11:57:50] <Loetmichel> with not so much changes as heavier beams for the chassis and a different head/injector pump.
[11:58:02] <enleth> ah, that makes more sense
[11:58:26] <Loetmichel> meaning: that was all that was needed to fulfil the minitary requirements ;)
[11:58:35] <CaptHindsight> archivist: did you look over those apps to run the DNA printer?
[11:59:30] <archivist> CaptHindsight, not much after last night, didnt want to poisen the brain with VB
[11:59:41] <CaptHindsight> heh, yeah
[12:00:42] <CaptHindsight> archivist: the printer just prints over a small slide area
[12:01:15] <CaptHindsight> whats nice about using Linuxcnc is that it can control the rest of the machine
[12:01:38] <CaptHindsight> load the next slide, run the wash and dry nozzles, etc
[12:02:09] <CaptHindsight> vs just cobbling some grbl app together that only runs one type of printer
[12:02:50] <Loetmichel> enleth: it was a nice RV tho
[12:02:57] <archivist> the self testing I think is the hard part
[12:03:56] <CaptHindsight> archivist: missed drops or sequence verification?
[12:04:11] <Loetmichel> AWD, differential locks, VERY sturdy, 20 ton engine driven winch in the front... and a nice interior fit for 4-5 people: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16320 http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16322
[12:05:20] <enleth> Loetmichel: yep, looks nice
[12:05:22] <archivist> CaptHindsight, missed drops and dirty nozzles where the spit at an angle slightly offset
[12:05:42] <enleth> Loetmichel: should be able to ascend pretty steep slopes with the winch
[12:05:54] <archivist> and the hardware to do the capture
[12:06:19] <CaptHindsight> line scanner
[12:07:40] <Loetmichel> enleth: it climbed without the winch intil it toppled over backwards ;)
[12:07:55] <Loetmichel> the winch was there to pull yourself out of muddy river beds and stuff ;)
[12:09:01] <CaptHindsight> archivist: Epson aren't the best of heads, but the tradeoff is their low cost
[12:09:35] <archivist> presumably cheaper to buy a printer than a spare head :)
[12:09:38] <CaptHindsight> archivist: dirty nozzles really won't be a problem
[12:11:10] <CaptHindsight> archivist: you want to keep the fluids constantly moving through the Epson heads, so the printer should be designed to print lots of slides vs sitting idle and waiting for the next operation
[12:11:38] <CaptHindsight> or you have lots of cleaning cycles that just waste fluids
[12:12:05] <archivist> there is always weekends and overnight to dry up and fail
[12:12:12] <pcw_home> I've had that
[12:12:17] <CaptHindsight> oh it will never sit that long
[12:12:39] <CaptHindsight> after you print the oligos the heads are flushed
[12:13:10] <CaptHindsight> the chems are $50/g
[12:13:22] <CaptHindsight> and they only last a few days once you open them
[12:13:47] <CaptHindsight> and they are kept away from oxygen and ANY moisture
[12:14:04] <CaptHindsight> so the printer is in an Argon atmosphere
[12:15:40] <archivist> valves right next to the head to avoid wastage ?
[12:16:27] <_abc_> archivist: that does not help, drying is the problem. Professional injket printers use a special station pod which maintains high vapor content in a closed box using a special fluid (solvent)
[12:16:35] <_abc_> archivist: when the heads are not in use.
[12:16:52] <archivist> _abc_, I worked for a printer manufacturer
[12:17:00] <CaptHindsight> _abc_: this is not your typical inkjet printer
[12:17:12] <_abc_> The ones I have in view here are Mimaki. I owned Epsons. Urgh.
[12:17:15] <archivist> this is upside for the flushing
[12:17:22] <CaptHindsight> this prints DNA strands
[12:17:37] <_abc_> CaptHindsight: I know what it is. I am also somewhat familiar with high speed dot inkjet printers for food, eggs etc
[12:17:57] <_abc_> The ink there is also a problem and a pain.
[12:18:06] <archivist> we have to flush between prints
[12:18:55] <_abc_> otoh the new Epsons come with built in permanent ink supply tubing, with bottles outside. Those can be "misused" a bit. I assume CaptHindsight uses one of those?
[12:19:48] <CaptHindsight> _abc_: we use just the Epson head
[12:20:48] <CaptHindsight> I have access to most others, Dimatix, Xaar, Richo etc but this is just to improve on the beta printer they made back in 2004
[12:21:03] <_abc_> ok
[12:21:44] <CaptHindsight> 6 channel Epson heads are <$200 today
[12:21:59] <_abc_> less if you buy a printer ;)
[12:22:36] <_abc_> http://liliputing.com/2015/08/epson-ecotank-printers-ditch-ink-cartridges-for-cheaper-ink-bottles.html these are current Epsons
[12:22:46] <_abc_> They already have the bottles installed when you buy them.
[12:22:47] <archivist> even less if you sell of the printer parts as spares
[12:23:39] <_abc_> http://peter5.50webs.com/ see Epson for my cheap printer adventures.
[12:23:48] <_abc_> Those are pre bottle ink though.
[12:23:49] <CaptHindsight> these are the solvent heads vs the aqueous versions
[12:24:08] <_abc_> I know I know. I was looking at Epson for pcb mask printing and resist printing.
[12:24:20] <_abc_> CaptHindsight: what resolution do you achieve? And what is splatter like?
[12:25:16] <_abc_> That being said, I should retire that page, it is quite mean. But I was pissed at the time, and rightfully so.
[12:26:01] <CaptHindsight> _abc_: with the Epsons?
[12:26:09] <_abc_> I was half hoping I could reuse the printer and heads as is to do pcb printing after its normal printer life, but that hope was dashed by the fact that that printer uses a servo and not a stepper for motion. DC servo.
[12:26:14] <_abc_> yes CaptHindsight
[12:26:41] <archivist> DC servo is the right way
[12:27:06] <_abc_> DC servo + optical encoder feedback is out of the way for a diy quickie driver to print pcbs eh
[12:27:41] <archivist> you just use the opto as an interrupt to fire the head
[12:27:49] <CaptHindsight> Epsons are down to ~1pL drops so final spot diameter depends on the substrate and the fluid
[12:27:57] <_abc_> archivist: hmm that's an idea
[12:28:13] <_abc_> CaptHindsight: yes but what's the splatter circle diameter?
[12:28:30] <CaptHindsight> _abc_: see above ^^^
[12:28:32] <archivist> what was done with 6809 in the canon printer waaaaay back
[12:28:54] <_abc_> 1pL is a volume unit.
[12:29:33] <CaptHindsight> it sure is
[12:30:27] <_abc_> http://www.lichtbildwerkstatt.net/displayimage.php?pid=464 so how large does it spread? ;)
[12:30:39] <CaptHindsight> what is the drop hitting? what is the velocity?
[12:30:44] <_abc_> 1pL at one atom thickness could cover a microscope slide or two
[12:30:54] <_abc_> Well I am asking you, what do you obtain?
[12:31:10] <CaptHindsight> that depends on all those factors
[12:31:42] <CaptHindsight> also after the fluid hits the substrate what will it do?
[12:31:55] <CaptHindsight> what is the surface tension of the drop?
[12:32:08] <_abc_> I know ;)
[12:32:09] <CaptHindsight> what is the surface tension of the substrate?
[12:32:19] <_abc_> I get contact angles like 30 degrees.
[12:32:19] <CaptHindsight> is it porous?
[12:32:26] <_abc_> Copper, polished.
[12:32:39] <_abc_> But I am asking you, since you said you use Epson heads.
[12:32:56] <CaptHindsight> for this application
[12:33:13] <CaptHindsight> for printing copper ink I use different heads
[12:34:05] <CaptHindsight> we can get few micron trace and space with copper ink onto an epoxy substrate
[12:34:39] <CaptHindsight> using custom heads that are in the femtoliter drop range
[12:35:17] <CaptHindsight> with Epsons and the right ink on epoxy I could probably get ~100um trace and space
[12:35:33] <_abc_> finally. Thank you for the number.
[12:36:01] <CaptHindsight> but it's meaningless unless you are in control of the fluids and the substrate
[12:36:09] <_abc_> I am in control of.
[12:37:47] <CaptHindsight> you'll probably get 200um + trace and space if you get lucky
[12:45:04] <CaptHindsight> _abc_: you're probably best off getting one of these and using their UV ink for a resist https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheapest-price-UV-flatbed-printer-small_60375720149.html?spm=a2700.7724857.29.228.bIpaFO
[12:48:58] <_abc_> Nah presensitized board + film goes down to 20um without trouble, other than the film.
[12:49:30] <_abc_> I need 200um traces 100um spaces.
[12:50:16] <_abc_> Some of these modern smd parts are insanely tiny. I think the time of copper clad is about to end. Something else may replace it. Printed, stamped, I don't know.
[12:50:46] <_abc_> After all, they've been mass producing vinyl and later cd and dvd disks with purely mechanical means for close to 70 years.
[12:51:02] <_abc_> Those have insane resolution. Vinyl grooves are like 50um.
[12:51:28] <_abc_> Did you people see the guy who *milled* a playable record on a cnc?
[12:51:37] <CaptHindsight> single sided boards
[12:52:09] <CaptHindsight> we can print multilayer PCB's using only liquids
[12:53:11] <CaptHindsight> you could modify that Chinaco flatbed to do that as well but you'd still need to make all the fluids
[12:54:04] <_abc_> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2013/01/3d-printed-records-we-talk-to-the-creator-about-her-work-3d-printing-potential/ heh
[12:56:25] <CaptHindsight> you could turn those Chiaco flatbed inkjets into a polyjet printer by adding a motor to the Z-axis
[12:56:50] <CaptHindsight> I guess they haven't realized it yet
[13:03:21] <gregcnc> that record is a success?
[13:03:59] <archivist> er no
[13:04:59] <_abc_> There's another site I can't find now with the other guy who milled a playable record on a normal cnc.
[13:05:31] <Polymorphism> I was just thinkiong about ttrying that
[13:05:47] <Polymorphism> but cutting it from live audio, not from a recording
[13:06:36] <_abc_> Well making a record cutter on a cnc and using that to cut records might work much better.
[13:06:48] <_abc_> Even if you use just a speaker as cutter actuator.
[13:08:33] <gregcnc> isn't that essenitally how it's done anyway?
[13:09:08] <BeachBumPete> its actually voodoo magic
[13:09:15] <CaptHindsight> yeah, the masters are :)
[13:09:19] <_abc_> Done what? Record cutting? I think they might use a laser nowadays to cut the master but normally it's a mechanical stylus actuated by voice coils.
[13:09:40] <gregcnc> what's wrong with what's worked for so long?
[13:09:48] <archivist> nothing
[13:09:56] <CaptHindsight> oh silly, new is always better :)
[13:09:59] <CaptHindsight> ask any kid
[13:10:04] <_abc_> gregcnc: Nobody is making money anymore with it *you must upgrade*. Look into my eyes, believe, do not question, UPGRADE.
[13:10:04] <_methods> just like systemd
[13:10:04] <archivist> people like to add errors
[13:10:09] <_methods> lol
[13:10:11] <gregcnc> that's right i must be getting old
[13:10:21] <roycroft> i should like to point out that although the 33rpm vinyl record has only been around since the '50s, edison was making microgroove records in the early 20th century
[13:10:29] <roycroft> his players used a diamond stylus
[13:10:37] <roycroft> it was the victrolas that used those big steel needles
[13:10:45] <roycroft> and had the canyon-wide grooves
[13:10:59] <gregcnc> i mean if analog music is your thing
[13:11:06] <CaptHindsight> systemd will change the world!
[13:11:29] <_abc_> CaptHindsight: it already has. I never hated any part of a linux install as much as I do that.
[13:11:35] <CaptHindsight> _methods: I have systemd on my 3d printer
[13:11:38] <_methods> heheh
[13:11:53] <_methods> now that is epic systemd trollin
[13:12:04] <roycroft> have you all seen the sir humphrey explanation of the brexit btw?
[13:12:06] <_methods> just throw systemd out and watch the fur fly
[13:12:17] <_abc_> Well I head some linuxcnc people already run systemd on their machines
[13:12:18] <roycroft> it's the most accurate and succinct explanation
[13:12:27] <_abc_> And the cnc jobs were not daemonically executed backwards.
[13:12:28] <roycroft> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-leadership-eu-referendum-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson_uk_5774cdd9e4b08b8610d779d8?edition=uk&utm_hp_ref=uk
[13:12:54] <roycroft> systemd is fine
[13:12:59] <roycroft> not systemd is also fine
[13:13:21] <Polymorphism> I love brexit
[13:13:56] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
[13:14:16] <_methods> obligatory lebowski
[13:15:28] <CaptHindsight> one day I might be able to sit through the entire film
[13:15:39] <_abc_> http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894 all you ever wanted to know about vinyl record player stylus shapes. I did not know there were so many.
[13:15:43] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: You voted for trump "for the lulz" didn't ya? :P
[13:15:54] <Polymorphism> I voted bernie
[13:16:16] <CaptHindsight> I want to see a 3d printed CD or DVD
[13:16:28] <CaptHindsight> wimps
[13:16:44] <_abc_> CaptHindsight: I want to see STM atom manipulator created memory. ROM.
[13:18:31] <CaptHindsight> http://hyperallergic.com/307744/the-yes-men-launch-parody-nra-site-to-donate-guns-to-less-fortunate-americans/
[13:18:59] <roycroft> i'm not a member of a party that held primaries, so i was unable to vote in our primary
[13:19:09] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NavzGE_lg6I NRA and Smith & Wesson "Share the Safety"
[13:19:35] <gregcnc> that beard...
[13:19:36] <_abc_> http://elpj.com/needle-vs-laser/ archivist : "The Archivist's Dream Machine" @link
[13:21:37] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: it's great!
[13:22:07] <gregcnc> it is, the haircut makes him credible
[13:22:12] <Polymorphism> Video reported for impersonation xD
[13:22:20] <CaptHindsight> I'm still laughing
[13:22:44] <Polymorphism> why get peoples hopes up with good ideas
[13:22:47] <Polymorphism> its just a hoax =(
[13:25:53] <gregcnc> www.ebay.com/itm/291804587552?
[13:26:30] <_methods> mmm sexy
[13:26:38] <_methods> $10
[13:26:41] <_methods> sign me up
[13:26:53] <gregcnc> too far from here
[13:27:07] <_methods> yeah that's like canada
[13:27:20] <CaptHindsight> I hope is stays below $25
[13:27:39] <_methods> isn't connecticut a state or something
[13:28:01] <CaptHindsight> snooty state
[13:28:30] <_methods> the oatmeal state
[13:28:40] <_methods> so boring you didn't know it was a state
[13:28:50] <CaptHindsight> with people named Digby, Yates and Scooter
[13:28:54] <BeachBumPete> looks a lot like the Hardinge toolroom collet lathe I had awhile back
[13:29:38] <_methods> i think they used to make stuff there
[13:29:57] <Polymorphism> non-free state
[13:30:24] <Polymorphism> ct
[13:30:26] <BeachBumPete> habbegger or Hardinge?
[13:30:49] <BeachBumPete> Polymorphism yup one of many in New England
[13:31:55] <CaptHindsight> _methods: it used to be the whitest state in the US
[13:34:40] <CaptHindsight> _methods: did they get that bathroom thing all sorted out yet by you?
[13:48:09] <_methods> oh i don't know about the bathrooms
[13:48:22] <_methods> but hooray you can be a trans in the military now
[13:48:30] <BeachBumPete> isn't that lovely
[13:48:33] <_methods> klinger was so ahead of the curve
[13:48:50] <_methods> a real pioneer in faggotry
[13:48:52] <_methods> lol
[13:50:03] <gregcnc> local gun shop seems to have made national news https://www.yahoo.com/news/gun-shop-raffling-ar-15-rifle-benefit-orlando-113653260.html?ref=gs
[13:51:13] <_methods> nothing heals gun violence like a gun raffle
[13:51:18] <BeachBumPete> to bad I'm not local I would get a raffle ticket
[13:51:19] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/Ytk5z sweet DIY trike.
[13:51:33] <_methods> hot dog stand trike
[13:51:50] <_methods> i guess someone had a bunch of diamond plate layin around
[13:52:03] <BeachBumPete> yeah those folks look REALLY up to the task of supporting that much weight....
[13:52:21] <BeachBumPete> forks
[13:52:42] <gregcnc> folks didn't compute
[13:52:55] <BeachBumPete> heh sorry
[13:52:57] <CaptHindsight> http://www.streetcarnage.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/idiocracy-2.jpg
[13:53:23] <_methods> +10000
[13:53:27] <gregcnc> all we need is a photochop of trump on that thing
[13:53:45] <gregcnc> heck put all of them on there
[13:54:16] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: this version https://moviereviewtheblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/potus.png?w=627&h=352
[13:54:41] <BeachBumPete> needs some AR15's tho
[13:54:52] <gregcnc> who knows 7 years from now...
[13:54:57] <BeachBumPete> perhaps a center mounted swivel mount
[13:55:55] <BeachBumPete> at least it was not a Fiero cut in half with a honda shadow front end scabbed on poorly like most I have seen.
[13:56:09] <gregcnc> i think i saw one of these flying in my neighborhood https://www.amazon.com/Thin-Blue-Line-American-Flag/dp/B00QY7F6QQ
[13:56:22] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4We5q8aTWQ Guitar Army
[13:56:59] <CaptHindsight> and the state of the union address
[14:08:25] <evil_ren> gregcnc: that shit looks isreali
[16:13:36] <Sync> pcw_home: is there a benefit to using the ncv7719s?
[16:16:39] <XXCoder> bad logos. lol http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26783-1m89o1l.png
[16:32:33] <Deejay> gn8
[16:35:43] <Demure__> Evening. Anyone have any experience wiring up a KBIC speed control to the 7i76? The KBIC can be wired either with a potentiometer (Which the 7i76 Spindle output seems to emulate), but also through voltage following from 0-7v. The latter seems more ideal since at 0v it would mean the motor would not be running at all, right? The KBIC does not have a start / stop, either. However I'm unsure on...
[16:35:44] <Demure__> ...how to wire it from the 7i76 card.
[16:36:34] <Demure__> Furthermore, I have no clue where to put the ground of the 180v DC motor. Wiring it up to the 230 AC ground would result in problems, no?
[16:39:04] <Demure__> I've heard that the pot floats at 100v which makes me worried to wiring it up to the Mesa card
[17:19:11] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: my current favorite take on the flag http://tinyurl.com/gne8ysp
[17:23:08] <Tom_itx> Demure__, does that control use a floating ground?
[17:23:29] <Tom_itx> if it does you will need an isolation board for it like i did on my sherline
[17:24:30] <Demure__> Tom_itx: Would you mind explaining what a floating ground is? I can't seem to find any ground connection on the controller, neither for the AC in or the motor itself.
[17:25:29] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/spindle_drive/
[17:25:34] <Tom_itx> have a look at those docs
[17:25:55] <Tom_itx> and you will need an isolation board of some sort
[17:26:50] <Tom_itx> the ground floats at some higher voltage than a normal ground would -- floating ground
[17:27:36] <Tom_itx> that KBSI-240D will take care of that
[17:28:18] <Tom_itx> if you hook it up without you will likely cook something
[17:28:58] <CaptHindsight> http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Why-does-a-circuit-always-have-to-have-ground
[17:30:23] <CaptHindsight> do floating grounds work on the ocean?
[17:31:03] <Tom_itx> Demure__, with those docs i was able to take my stock sherline spindle control and wire it up with speed control and reverse using some relays
[17:31:19] <Tom_itx> running it with a PID loop in sherline it works quite well
[17:31:26] <Tom_itx> aarg
[17:31:34] <Tom_itx> s/sherline/linuxcnc
[17:31:47] <Demure__> I see. Dang, here I was thinking I had all I need. So the KBSI-240D will take the spindle pot control from the MESA and keep it isolated from the high voltage of the KBIC circuit?
[17:32:01] <Tom_itx> yes
[17:32:17] <Tom_itx> ebay has em, i found one fairly cheap
[17:32:54] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kldA4nWANA8 Altaeros BAT: The Next Generation of Wind Power
[17:32:58] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/itm/KB-ELECTRONICS-KBSI-240D-SIGNAL-ISOLATOR-KBSI240D-/130893663004?hash=item1e79decb1c:g:l~8AAOxy79VRc6th
[17:34:15] <Demure__> Thanks. The manual of my KBIC -240 lists the KBIC Signal Isolator (SI-5) 9443 as the isolator, is this the same or are there differences?
[17:34:29] <Tom_itx> idk
[17:34:51] <Tom_itx> iirc i have the same controller
[17:35:01] <Tom_itx> one of those i linked you
[17:35:41] <Demure__> Thanks, good to know. :) Welp, time to order and wait. Thanks for helping me not fry things!
[17:35:50] <Tom_itx> np
[17:36:07] <Tom_itx> what's this going on?
[17:36:30] <Demure__> An Emco 5
[17:36:56] <Demure__> Small Lathe, first time wiring up a controller & first time working with a lathe.
[17:37:56] <Tom_itx> i'm thinking mine is the KBIC but i'd have to look for sure, it's an older sherline
[17:38:40] <Demure__> I'll probably order a new one elsewhere anyway, most of the eBay ones are from the US and the shipping usually kills the deal.
[17:39:00] <Tom_itx> new will cost quite a bit more
[17:39:21] <Demure__> Yes, but shipping for example on the one you listed is 45$
[17:39:42] <Demure__> Plus 21% import tax + the postal service's "service costs for clearing" which are 17$ very quickly add up
[17:40:09] <Tom_itx> http://www.walkerindustrial.com/KBSI-240D-9431-KB-Electronics-Signal-Isolator-p/9431.htm
[17:40:10] <Demure__> I'll have a look around, though.
[17:40:17] <Tom_itx> ~90 us
[17:40:22] <Tom_itx> new
[17:41:15] <Demure__> I was looking into the SI-5, just to make sure it'll function with it. It's similarly priced, but that's nearby with low shipping.
[17:41:41] <Tom_itx> k
[17:41:43] <Demure__> But I think cheapest will win out, just got to search to see if no one near here has it for similar prices. :) Less waiting = Quicker getting to work.
[17:42:37] <Tom_itx> that's 0-10v on the pot too, not +10 -10 like some spindle controls
[17:42:55] <Tom_itx> make sure the mesa card does that
[17:43:15] <Tom_itx> i don't have that particular one so i dunno
[17:44:17] <Demure__> I see. I'm just slightly worried I'll order the KBSI-240D and it won't work on the KBIC 240.
[17:46:04] <Demure__> "The KBSI-240D signal isolator can be used with multiple, non-regenerative, DC Drives such as KBIC, KBMM, KBMD and KBPC"
[17:46:06] <Demure__> Ok, nevermind, thanks!
[17:54:44] <enleth> jesus, another floating ground crap, I hate those
[17:56:18] <enleth> good thing they're not common anymore
[18:01:29] <KreAture_Zzz> any fpga coders here ?
[18:06:38] <Demure__> Reading about floating ground.. Wouldn't having a 180VDC circuit with a floating ground be somewhat dangerous?
[18:08:06] <KreAture_> wouldn't it be safer than grounded ?
[18:08:25] <Demure__> How so?
[18:08:25] <KreAture_> I mean I expect you are talking about a switchmode dc adapter or similar ?
[18:08:44] <KreAture_> as long as it is floating there is no reference to cause current flow
[18:08:49] <Demure__> It's a DC motor controller
[18:09:01] <KreAture_> touching the +180v if there is no common ground would not shock you
[18:09:29] <KreAture_> if it is grounded to something you also are grounded/standing on/touching etc you would get shocked
[18:09:43] <Demure__> I see.
[18:09:47] <Demure__> Did not think about that.
[18:09:49] <KreAture_> same reason why you can, if siloated touch a single ac wire
[18:09:57] <KreAture_> isolated
[18:10:05] <KreAture_> just don't lean on ground or touch two at same time
[18:10:48] <KreAture_> but if it's a supply with a ground shield + .egative and posetive, the ground shield should be properly grounded for safety, as in failures in device should not allow the shell to be +180v
[18:10:55] <KreAture_> better it throw the fuse
[18:12:01] <Demure__> No ground shielded wires in this case.
[18:14:56] <KreAture_> http://www.aptsources.com/resources/pdf/Floating%20Output.pdf
[18:15:00] <KreAture_> insteresting read
[18:16:44] <KreAture_> if you use a double isolated non grounded power supply for example, it would have no shield and instead have plastic shell
[18:17:06] <KreAture_> It will likely also have floating output on a virtual ground if it's a dc output
[18:18:43] <KreAture_> If you then attach that to a system and ground the chassis of your metal contraption to it's gnd (-) output you would atleast prevent any + output from being available on chassis to user in case of a mistake etc
[18:19:06] <KreAture_> Can't remember if it's correct relative to standards though
[18:19:11] <KreAture_> if it's "up to code"
[18:21:19] <Demure__> Wouldn't that be problematic if this is shared with the AC ground?
[18:24:56] <KreAture_> It's why grounding is so complex and why you also may have to think about the Neutral wire not being neutral in all countrys
[18:25:16] <KreAture_> here for example we have two phases at 120 deg off vs the shield ground which is not allowed as a return
[18:26:06] <KreAture_> 3 phase is thus distributed as 3 wires and a shield/protective earth (pe) and then only two wires go to a normal plug together with pe making 3 different options for a plug
[18:26:28] <KreAture_> N must then not be connected to any - or gnd as it may be live
[18:26:55] <KreAture_> there are lots of requirements and standards you can read to find out how this should be handled, I can't remember it anymore been like 14 years with no use of the info hehe
[18:28:33] * KreAture_ is looking at fpga's to see what could be used in a mPCIe board
[18:33:12] <enleth> KreAture_: do you need it actually inside the mPCIe form factor, or just connected to an mPCIe slot?
[18:33:45] <KreAture_> enleth well technically I can easily use the mPCIe paralell adapter and have an external mesa or such
[18:34:05] <KreAture_> but it would be very sexy to put it all on the mPCIe
[18:34:22] <enleth> KreAture_: there are mPCIe extenders with a regular PCIe slot on the other end
[18:34:26] <KreAture_> and give better control than feeding the fpga through paralell
[18:34:42] <KreAture_> enleth sure, that's another option
[18:34:56] <KreAture_> that still means expensive card
[18:35:01] <KreAture_> I'd love to drop a step
[18:35:25] <KreAture_> small mPCIe board with a smaller fpga on it that can do maby 8 steppers and 10-20 io's
[18:35:37] <enleth> something tells me it would be hard to squeeze an FPGA and a reasonable I/O connector into the mPCIe form factor for less than $200
[18:35:38] <KreAture_> and then feed that out to a breakout board
[18:36:02] <Tom_itx> 6i24? 6i25?
[18:36:19] <KreAture_> well, the fpga seems to be around $35-40 and I know I can get some nice micro connectors
[18:36:31] <KreAture_> &The cable out to the breakout would actually be expensive though
[18:36:40] <Sync> yeah
[18:36:43] <enleth> what about buffers and such?
[18:36:43] <Sync> it is kinda useless
[18:36:49] <Sync> I'd go for ethernet
[18:37:11] <KreAture_> enleth I think the buffers and or isolators should be on breakout board or the individual stepper controllers
[18:37:38] <KreAture_> I've seen ppl having optically isolated outputs, then breakout board with optos, and finally fed drivers with otically isolated inputs
[18:37:47] <KreAture_> The ammount of delay this adds is silly
[18:37:57] <KreAture_> almost 1ms delay
[18:38:04] <KreAture_> from step to actual movement
[18:38:07] <enleth> I'm not even talking about optoisolation, just line drivers for the breakout board cable
[18:38:18] <KreAture_> enleth depends on the fpga
[18:38:28] <Sync> KreAture_: the delay is not important
[18:38:32] <KreAture_> some of em have very strong drivers, and you actually end up adding series resistors
[18:38:36] <enleth> yeah, you sure an $35 one would do?
[18:38:41] <Sync> as it is deterministic and constant
[18:38:44] <KreAture_> Sync it is when the inputs only have 1/3 the delay
[18:39:01] <KreAture_> especially when ppl already complain about pids having issues
[18:39:20] <KreAture_> anyway, I just don't like to see ppl paying for lots of hardware that is unnecessary in the signal path
[18:39:40] <KreAture_> and it's fun to dabble and look at solutions
[18:39:53] <Sync> sometimes it is just easier to get stuff working
[18:40:06] <Sync> the inputs also come in over ethernet, so eh
[18:40:35] <KreAture_> Sync My system is already working though
[18:40:42] <KreAture_> but on a old shuttle xpc
[18:40:45] <KreAture_> with lpt
[18:41:09] <KreAture_> The cps doesn't fit my nice clean box though and I cut alu so want to protect it inside there
[18:41:15] <KreAture_> xpc
[18:42:12] <Sync> well, a lpt doesn't have enough ios for my machine, and using multiples is not elegant imho
[18:42:52] <KreAture_> hmm
[18:43:00] <KreAture_> what if the mPCIe board had two lpt's ?
[18:43:10] <KreAture_> It would cost around $30
[18:43:14] <KreAture_> I checked
[18:44:08] <KreAture_> I founly found 1p and 1p2s boards available but I see it would be easy to do a 2p board
[18:44:21] <KreAture_> it needs to be a full length board though, but that seems to be ok
[18:44:39] <Sync> if I wanted two, I'd buy two 6$ lpt cards
[18:44:57] <Sync> but the way it works now, I only have to have power and ethernet going to my computer
[18:45:03] <KreAture_> sure but not if you have a mini itx board with 1 mpcie slot
[18:45:08] <Sync> which makes cabling easy
[18:45:14] <KreAture_> true
[18:45:29] <KreAture_> remember though, I am removing the difference between the computer and the controller
[18:45:34] <KreAture_> I need mine to be one unit
[18:46:01] <TurBoss> Hi+
[18:46:11] <TurBoss> I'm tryin to compile master from github
[18:46:18] <TurBoss> but i'm getting this error http://dpaste.com/2V7PX46
[18:47:08] <TurBoss> compiling with --with-realtime=uspace
[18:47:20] <TurBoss> as no rt kernel here just for simulation
[18:47:27] <TurBoss> ubuntu 16.04
[18:49:07] <KreAture_> I didn't know you could compile it for 16 ?
[18:49:17] <JT-Shop> compile a sim
[18:50:18] <TurBoss> with sim I get this checking for RT dir... configure: WARNING: --enable-simulator is deprecated. Use --with-realtime=uspace instead.
[18:51:15] <TurBoss> trying
[18:51:37] <JT-Shop> hmm, I don't see any sim debs for master only for 2.7
[18:52:12] <PCW_> I think thats a 16.04 issue
[18:52:17] <TurBoss> posible
[18:52:38] <PCW_> and I thought it had been fixed but maybe not merged
[18:52:58] <TurBoss> now i'm comipiling with enable-simulator
[18:54:08] <TurBoss> failed again
[18:54:10] <TurBoss> same error
[18:55:33] <TurBoss> so now joint_axes is in master?
[18:55:46] <TurBoss> I was able to compile the joint_axes branch
[18:57:16] <PCW_> yeah
[18:57:22] <PCW_> https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/34995486/
[18:59:58] <TurBoss> is this issueadble?
[20:03:25] <enleth> do you think a PCI Riva128 running a kernel framebuffer would do bad things to latency?
[20:03:58] <enleth> ... yes, I am asking about a 1997 NVIDIA Riva 128
[20:06:09] <enleth> no, screw it, wrong PCI voltage
[20:15:57] <PCW_> 5V PCI?
[20:25:36] <enleth> yeah. anyway, I can do the same thing without ancient hardware anyway, the adapters I need are still being sold
[20:26:47] <enleth> I'll try to keep the ORAC's built-in green CRT working, and it's actually a TV fed with RF signal on channel 36
[20:27:50] <PCW_> Thats just weird
[20:28:14] <enleth> tell me about it
[20:28:40] <enleth> but it's a goddamn green-on-black CRT, already fitted to the panel
[20:28:50] <enleth> it would be a crime to remove it
[20:29:17] <enleth> looks like an $1 VGA to S-video and an $10 S-video to RF modulator will do the trick
[20:29:57] <enleth> if it doesn't, I'm out $11, who cares
[22:21:59] <pcw_home> Demure__: the 7I76 spindle control will work with a KBIC (it has 2500V isolation)
[23:14:46] <tiwake> well, I have a promising reply back from a company
[23:15:04] <tiwake> for a job
[23:24:29] <tiwake> this place looks really interesting actually