#linuxcnc | Logs for 2016-03-28

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[00:01:34] <djdelorie> heh. Many steps at a time with a 7i76
[00:01:58] <sabrex> quit microstepping and hurry up
[00:02:31] <os1r1s> djdelorie They are damn near silent at 1000 rpm
[00:02:53] <pink_vampire> ac servo?
[00:03:35] <os1r1s> pink_vampire They are DC servos.
[00:03:43] <os1r1s> pink_vampire But the driver is built into the motor
[00:03:59] <os1r1s> So you feed it step, dir, and enable and it moves
[00:04:06] <os1r1s> With a fault line coming back
[00:04:25] <pink_vampire> it's the brashless one?
[00:04:29] <pink_vampire> 299$?
[00:06:35] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: ?
[00:06:48] <os1r1s> About 300
[00:07:14] <os1r1s> pink_vampire https://www.teknic.com/products/clearpath-brushless-dc-servo-motors/
[00:07:39] <pink_vampire> yes, that the one I'm talking,
[00:08:09] <pink_vampire> they look so awesome.
[00:08:23] <os1r1s> They are slick
[00:08:43] <os1r1s> We'll see how well they work. But based on what I've seen so far I'm pleased
[00:08:49] <McBride36> how much flex would i see in 2mm aluminum plate, about 1'x1'
[00:08:58] <djdelorie> os1r1s: what do you think of their built-in tuning software? I found tuning to be the hardest part of setting up servos.
[00:09:14] <os1r1s> djdelorie These autotune
[00:09:20] <djdelorie> yeah, but how well?
[00:09:25] <os1r1s> The software has been ok so far.
[00:09:32] <os1r1s> I'll let you know in a week or so :P
[00:09:40] <os1r1s> From what I've read they do well
[00:09:41] <djdelorie> :-)
[00:10:21] <djdelorie> the other thing I had a hard time getting right was keeping the servos from hunting while the axes weren't moving
[00:10:55] <pink_vampire> what model you took?
[00:18:38] <Connor> os1r1s: Those look interesting.. Not sure how they would do in a flood coolant environment..
[00:18:57] <os1r1s> Connor We'll see
[00:19:05] <os1r1s> Connor I will have coolant on mine
[00:19:16] <os1r1s> I talked to their engineers and they said it was ok
[00:19:36] <os1r1s> pink_vampire 2331s for the X/Y and I have to look up the Z
[00:19:39] <Connor> Oh. okay.. Just Nema 32? They have any Nema 23's ?
[00:20:57] <os1r1s> the 2331 is nema23
[00:21:08] <os1r1s> I have a 34 on Z
[00:21:24] <Connor> What's the torque rating on the 2331 ?
[00:23:02] <os1r1s> Somewhere around 600
[00:23:09] <os1r1s> I forget the exact number
[00:25:58] <pink_vampire> what power supply?
[00:27:34] <Polymorphism> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-Precision-Self-Centering-Vise/T10441?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_medium=link&utm_source=direct
[00:27:35] <Polymorphism> do I need this
[00:27:47] <Polymorphism> I want it for some reason
[00:28:02] <djdelorie> no
[00:28:05] <Polymorphism> does that mean it returns to 0 on its own
[00:28:08] <Polymorphism> when you release it
[00:28:10] <XXCoder> heh http://maximumble.thebookofbiff.com/2016/02/04/1263-revenge/
[00:28:46] <Polymorphism> xD
[00:30:56] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: no
[00:31:24] <pink_vampire> you need probe
[00:35:09] <Polymorphism> I need woodruff key bits
[00:35:35] <Polymorphism> http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-pc-Woodruff-Key-Seat-Set/H5606?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_medium=link&utm_source=direct
[00:37:16] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: shallow and large drill vise
[00:37:44] <pink_vampire> and basic clamping kit
[00:39:30] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: ^^
[00:40:02] <Polymorphism> ok
[00:40:07] <Polymorphism> let me take a look
[00:40:28] <pink_vampire> and make a probe
[00:42:09] <Polymorphism> can I make the vise
[00:42:11] <Polymorphism> and the clampos
[00:42:12] <Polymorphism> with the machine
[00:42:36] <pink_vampire> the clamping kit - yes.
[00:42:45] <pink_vampire> it's just 4 screws
[00:43:47] <pink_vampire> it's have to be the same with as your t slot
[00:47:36] <Polymorphism> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Quick-Setting-Mill-Vise/T10724?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_medium=link&utm_source=direct
[00:48:00] <Polymorphism> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=253012&d=1413176329
[00:48:03] <Polymorphism> thats some of the cutting I need to do
[00:48:29] <Polymorphism> http://mrdwab.com/john/Browniemanualwah.jpg
[00:48:31] <Polymorphism> also this though
[00:48:37] <Not-Renny> I don't imagine there's anyone here from Utah that's got a laser cutter.
[00:48:44] <Polymorphism> sorry
[00:48:56] <Not-Renny> Pretty, Polymorphism.
[00:52:56] <Polymorphism> http://www.guitarampboard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14209
[00:53:10] <Polymorphism> Can I expect that level of quality with the machines I'm considering pink_vampire
[00:54:42] <Polymorphism> he should have routed it so the bottom panel fits invisibly
[00:55:00] <Polymorphism> can you tap wood with threads
[00:55:22] <Polymorphism> probablyt not I would guess...
[00:55:33] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: this is NO as machined!
[00:55:45] <pink_vampire> never ever.
[00:55:48] <Polymorphism> what?
[00:56:09] <pink_vampire> you will have to sand it and polish it,
[00:56:19] <Polymorphism> the engraving
[00:56:20] <Polymorphism> its so sharp
[00:56:23] <Polymorphism> and clean
[00:56:40] <Polymorphism> http://www.bobsavage.net/otherjunk/lollygagger/lollygagger-wood-enclosures-4.jpg
[00:56:41] <Polymorphism> like that
[00:56:51] <Polymorphism> are these really that precise?
[00:57:05] <Polymorphism> how is that so clean!!!!!
[00:57:07] <Polymorphism> wow
[00:57:10] <Polymorphism> such perfect cuts
[00:57:24] <pink_vampire> high speed spindle, air blast to clear the chips, and slow feed rate
[00:58:28] <pink_vampire> also high quality and sharp ed mills.
[00:59:22] <Not-Renny> You /could/just get a laser engraver :P
[00:59:43] <Polymorphism> xD
[00:59:51] <Polymorphism> I'd like to use one machine
[01:00:03] <pink_vampire> Not-Renny: he want it for aluminum.
[01:00:12] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, high speed, air blast, slow feed, high qwuality sharp mill.
[01:00:20] <Polymorphism> raptor has accuracy less than .001 he said
[01:00:24] <Not-Renny> Just get a really high end one, then :P
[01:00:26] <Polymorphism> so I know it would be this clean... I think
[01:00:40] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: it's not about the backlash.
[01:00:49] <Polymorphism> .00025 accuracy
[01:00:53] <Polymorphism> maybe
[01:01:02] <Not-Renny> Pfff, just make your own machine, silly
[01:01:11] <Not-Renny> this is what I will do.
[01:01:11] <Polymorphism> Not-Renny, it's not really economical
[01:01:13] <Polymorphism> I looked into that
[01:01:27] <Not-Renny> Well I will do it for fun!
[01:01:32] <Polymorphism> =D
[01:01:40] <pink_vampire> even with screws from home depot you can get it.
[01:02:07] <Not-Renny> like, I want to make a little tabletop lens grinder.
[01:02:57] <pink_vampire> it's just to clear the chips, and cut slow so the wood get very smooth
[01:03:24] <pink_vampire> lens grinder?
[01:03:38] <pink_vampire> do you want to make a telescope?
[01:03:41] <Polymorphism> you need extreme accuracy!
[01:03:45] <pink_vampire> no
[01:03:49] <Polymorphism> no?
[01:04:00] <Polymorphism> he wants to grind his own telescope mirror
[01:04:06] <pink_vampire> for telescope?
[01:04:27] <Polymorphism> Not-Renny,
[01:04:31] <pink_vampire> it's not that hard.
[01:05:04] <sabrex> you just need a diamond turning tool in a lathe to make lenses
[01:05:25] <Not-Renny> Well, I wanted to grind laser and other optics lenses
[01:06:26] <Not-Renny> So I thought it would be cool to do a super low gearing on a couple of motors, and have a brushless motor or something do the spinning while the motors move a stationary diamond impregnated but around.
[01:06:38] <Not-Renny> Bit*
[01:07:03] <sabrex> did it work?
[01:07:16] <Not-Renny> This is just an idea. :P
[01:07:52] <sabrex> sounds like you're making a lathe lol
[01:08:00] <Not-Renny> I know which electronics I'd want to use, I'm just not sure how it would work in a software way.
[01:08:21] <djdelorie> put the lens on the spindle and mount the diamond tool to the table...
[01:08:29] <Not-Renny> sabrex, pretty much a lathe where the x axis is flipped to be the x axis :P
[01:08:46] <Polymorphism> http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/BodyBlank.aspx
[01:08:46] <Not-Renny> Z axis*
[01:10:13] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: do you know how to play on a guitar?
[01:10:46] <Polymorphism> yes
[01:11:07] <pink_vampire> do you play on a band?
[01:11:10] <Polymorphism> thats why I like the idea of making a new guitar body
[01:11:16] <Polymorphism> no, not right now
[01:15:59] <Polymorphism> Have to sleep now, gn
[01:16:23] <XXCoder> heh might make one for hell of it
[01:16:26] <XXCoder> night
[01:16:33] <XXCoder> guitar body
[01:27:24] <pink_vampire> I need a drawing of db25
[01:30:32] <XXCoder> http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/406/559/712/712559406_429.jpg ?
[01:31:10] <Jymmm> pink_vampire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature#/media/File:DSubminiatures.svg
[01:31:19] <XXCoder> might be better http://www.pacificcable.com/photos/DI-25P-T_Drawing.jpg
[01:32:00] <pink_vampire> so it's 10 deg?
[01:33:42] <XXCoder> odd that it does NOT specify smaller horzonal part
[01:35:09] <XXCoder> my second one is bit more detailed
[01:35:15] <XXCoder> it does seem to be 10 degrees
[01:35:23] <pink_vampire> i need to get some sleep
[01:40:14] <XXCoder> anyway pink_vampire you can figure it out since both pics together provides enough info :)
[01:43:41] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: oh found it
[01:43:55] <XXCoder> radius at corners should be .102/.106
[02:46:00] <Deejay> moin
[03:13:09] <minibnz> oh this is just starting to piss me off.. i cannot get this tool changer to work.. no matter what i do it just wont do what i tell it.. if i use just the classicladder i cannot move the head up and down. if i try and use python is am supposed to be able to move the axis but i cannot get a pin to change state... ie cannot get the platter to turn...
[03:13:34] <minibnz> no matter what i do in the hal file or the python code can i get the python signals to connect to the hardware.
[03:14:04] <minibnz> i can see the signals are changing but the signals are not making it thru to the end of their nets..
[03:14:33] <minibnz> i can manually setp pins on and off and it does what i tell it. so its wired up fine.. i just cannot access it from python./
[03:15:05] <minibnz> have looked at the few examples i can find but they just result in the same thing.. signals not following the nets..
[03:15:24] <minibnz> think i might just give up on this, i have spent 4 days on this and have nothing to show for it..
[03:15:31] <archivist> trace your nets viewing the signals
[03:16:14] <minibnz> if i go in to the hal config veiwer it says the nets are connected to the right pins. so i really dont know what i am doing wrong.
[03:16:49] <minibnz> and not being able to find any sample code from components others have written i just dont know where to turn
[03:17:21] <archivist> available components will be in the source
[03:17:27] <archivist> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/halshow.html
[03:17:53] <minibnz> i can see that my component is in the config viewer so i know its loaded
[03:18:16] <minibnz> i can see what signals it has but i just cannot get them to make it to the parport pins.
[03:18:26] <archivist> people often forget to load comps properly
[03:18:59] <minibnz> so whats your idea of properly? do you not simply do a loadusr componentname?
[03:20:23] <minibnz> all the pages i and examples i have seen say just to add that to the hal file.
[03:20:35] <archivist> addf ?
[03:21:12] <archivist> it is easily forgotten
[03:22:25] <archivist> I was chasing something like that over xmas, I forgot :)
[03:22:40] <minibnz> none of the examples i have seen even mention addf
[03:23:56] <minibnz> guess i need to add a function to my python script as it says unknown finction when i add the addf command
[03:26:14] <minibnz> well i guess i start the documentation search all over again as to how to add a function to my script.. as i have not seen anything about how to or why i need to..
[03:27:00] <archivist> what addf does is put the comp into a thread to actually run it
[03:27:44] <archivist> eg http://www.archivist.info/cnc/configs/vertex/vertex.hal
[03:27:51] <minibnz> well i can see that when i set a variable in python i see that value appear in the classicladder variable watch window.
[03:28:45] <archivist> without the addf the comp is not running in a thread
[03:28:55] <minibnz> i understand that it needs to go into the hal file but there seems to be something missing in my python script that the addf is trying to find.
[03:29:10] <minibnz> i have no functions in my script its simply a loop at this point
[03:29:23] <archivist> forget python
[03:29:32] <archivist> this is in hal
[03:29:40] <minibnz> yes i get that...
[03:30:15] <minibnz> when i add the addf command to my hal file. EMC fails to start and throws a error of unabel to find function toolchanger.0.read
[03:34:05] <minibnz> AS it is i can see that the python script is running.. as i can see that it will change some variables when it runs .. and i can see the new variable value in the watch window of the classicladder.. so i really dont know what the addf is going to give me
[03:34:59] <minibnz> there is a whole host of things i do not yet understand and was hoping to at least get a pin to turn on and off but all i am able to do is change a s32 variable.. cannot set pins high or low..
[03:36:35] <minibnz> if i really must use a addf command then i have to find out how to modify my python component to work with that.. at the moment all it does is sets up a bunch of pins and then loops setiing a variable...
[03:40:57] <minibnz> i can see that the python script is doing something because the newpin commands make stuff appear in the halscope list.. so i really dont know whats going wrong
[03:42:36] <minibnz> im finding it really hard to pull all the little snippets of information from the 8 different web pages that i have been following trying to get this far..
[03:54:55] <archivist> which thread is the comp to run "in"
[03:55:45] <minibnz> i dunno.. this is the problem i do not know how to add a function to my script so i can add it to a thread.
[03:56:43] <archivist> adding it was the loadusr
[03:57:14] <minibnz> so at the moment i have a loadusr toolchanger command in my hal file.
[03:57:56] <archivist> I have never used any user space stuff yet
[03:58:05] <minibnz> if i go and add a addf toolchanger base-thread it throws and error saying toolchanger is an unknown fucntuion. this is why i am trying to work out how to add a function to my script to satisfy the adff call
[03:58:11] <archivist> nor classicladder
[03:58:40] <archivist> well base thread is realtime and that was loaded in user
[03:58:50] <minibnz> if i can see that the script is doing stuff why do i need to addf?
[03:59:12] <archivist> to attach to the correct thread
[03:59:28] <minibnz> but i cannot find out what addf wants..
[03:59:59] <minibnz> all of the user space component examples are very lacking any real information.. they all seem incomplete
[04:00:27] <minibnz> i guess everyone gives up and writes it in to the source..
[04:01:18] <minibnz> i am not going to go that far.. i should not have to mess with the source code to linuxcnc to do what i want..
[04:01:28] <archivist> often people creating stuff dont bother with sensible docs unfortunately
[04:01:46] <minibnz> its bad enough that i cannot do it all in the classicladder.. what good is a plc that cannot move axis?
[04:02:13] <minibnz> without docs they might as well not bother creating/sharing stuff
[04:05:07] <archivist> you move to tool change position, classiclatter does the change, are you expecting something else
[04:06:46] <minibnz> yes i have the M6 command setup to move the quill up ready for a tool change.. then i can use the CL to rotate the carousel but then i need the head to come down close the collet and go back up then report its ready for work
[04:07:19] <minibnz> i cannot work out how to get the quill/head to come down grab the tool and go back up to clear the tool carousel.
[04:08:30] <minibnz> to get around that i have to make the tool carousel move up and down as well as around and in and out.. it just seems so wrong to make another axis of movement when i can/should get the head to move to the tool
[04:09:04] <minibnz> making the tool carousel go up and down is just going to add another level of complexity to the mechanics that just doesnt need to be there.
[04:10:33] <minibnz> everyone tells me this should be possible but no-one can tell me how or where i can find information to make it possible.
[04:11:30] <archivist> using something like a multiplexer or addition comp to add movement to the current position
[04:12:23] <archivist> see the torch height comp for an idea how Z can be modified
[04:12:30] <minibnz> how would a multiplexor help me i cannot drive a single pin high or low..
[04:13:26] <minibnz> ok where do i find the torch height comp code?
[04:14:07] <archivist> it is how the comp is ised not its code
[04:14:11] <archivist> used
[04:17:12] <minibnz> well i have no idea of where to find the component module. and i am really going to need to get the code to the module so i can write my own..
[04:18:03] <Sync> you can probably write a custom hal module that does that
[04:18:30] <minibnz> sync thats exactly what i am trying to do.. but i cannot get the pythhon code to toggle a pin
[04:18:58] <minibnz> i see the nets are all setup saying that my signal that turns on the platter motor is set to go to the par port pin but nothgin happens..
[04:19:30] <minibnz> i can see the component code has set the variable/pin but that signal is not making it thru the nets for some reason..
[04:20:22] <minibnz> was hoping somone could point me to a real example of how to write a python component.. all i can find is a simple passthru example that doesnt do anything real it just mirrors a variable in to out
[04:20:35] <minibnz> no mention of how to assign that to a thread nothing..
[04:21:17] <minibnz> i had the classic ladder all setup so it would take the Tx number rotate the platter to the right slot but could not get it to lower the head to pick up the tool
[04:22:25] <minibnz> so i moved to python but cannot get that to toggle a pin on the par port.
[04:23:49] <minibnz> i know my python script is doing stuff cuz i can that it will change a variable.. just refuses to toggle a pin.. the nets appear correct but the pins dont change
[04:25:38] <Sync> hm
[04:25:49] <Sync> you can probably move the head with gcode in classicladder
[04:26:13] <minibnz> probably but i cant find documentation that says so.
[04:27:31] <minibnz> the documentation i have found is always incomplete so i am taking a little from here and some from there but its still not enough..
[04:27:36] <archivist> add a value to Z
[04:27:59] <archivist> see how the toolheight does that
[04:30:26] <minibnz> tool heights is taken care of by some mechanisim in the M6 routine i think
[04:31:13] <minibnz> it is written in c component so it not a user module is it still worth reading that source code?
[04:32:27] <minibnz> and as far as i can see none of the variables that are accessible in the classicladder relate to make an axis go to this location, at best i might be able to hit the memory registers that will make it think it has moved to a locatioin
[04:34:38] <minibnz> i might have to do it in a way that seems very wrong to me.. use the classic ladder to set variables that python then uses as a trigger to move the axis. this means using both the CL and the python component.. just seems wrong to be passing variables to make things happen. going to need a state machine...
[04:35:40] <minibnz> maybe i should look into the sequential ladder language that can run GCODE's but its all subroutines and crap that just looks messy..
[04:38:05] <minibnz> very disapointing state of affairs.. i am almost tempted to make a PIC MCU do all the work including hijacking the Z step and direction lines and force it to do my bidding... now i know that is all shades of wrong..
[04:44:13] <archivist> I think you are not seeing the big picture and how you can connect hal comps together to do something
[04:46:26] <minibnz> you are exactly right i cannot see the big picture because it had been cut up and spread across the internet in many many tiny peices..
[04:47:15] <minibnz> i cannot even find a list of available components and the few that i have found all require compiling into linuxcnc..
[04:47:30] <minibnz> the machine i am working on does not have enough space to do all this
[04:47:58] <sabrex> how much space is required to compile linuxcnc?
[04:48:22] <minibnz> its all the dependancies that i need to install to be able to compile the code
[04:48:33] <minibnz> i have only 400mb free
[04:49:05] <archivist> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.6/html/man/man9/
[04:49:51] <archivist> the list is at the bottom of http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.6/html/
[04:50:01] <archivist> it is all there
[04:50:01] <minibnz> thats one of the sources i have been using but there is not a lot about tool changers to be found.. and as for python stuff there is very little to be found
[04:50:17] <archivist> I dont do python
[04:52:34] <minibnz> ok this i have not seen.. this has usefull information.
[04:53:01] <minibnz> i might even be able to hook into some of this from the classicladder..
[04:53:15] <minibnz> thank you very much... greatly appreciated..
[05:49:12] <newcnc22> Hello all
[06:33:56] <minibnz> dont ya love it when you flip one little micro switch and you cause your whole mill to reset...
[06:34:59] <minibnz> did something wrong in the PLC and tried to drive the linear actuator in both forwards and reverse at the same time.. basically shorting 12v to ground
[06:35:32] <minibnz> at least this driver is holding up better than the last one.. it let the magic smoke out...
[06:35:52] <XXCoder> ouch
[06:37:45] <minibnz> oh and to top that off.. i lent on the bench holding the mill and it has started to collapse, i managed to slow it enough to get a few lengths of stock under it to stop a catastrophy.. saved the coolant tank below the bench from getting smashed and leaking.
[06:38:40] <minibnz> saved the soldering station too..just have to hope that holds until i can get some thing in the way of a real bench sorted.. might have to pick the mill up and move it to the big bench for a little while..
[06:39:25] <XXCoder> awesome video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYI1slVGziU
[06:39:28] <XXCoder> man I love that channel
[06:40:45] <minibnz> that is pretty cool
[06:40:57] <XXCoder> yeah
[06:45:05] <minibnz> i like his little lathe
[07:26:35] <Polymorphism> Maybe the 6040 will be fine for me. I don't need 2.2kw spindle 800w will be enough. I'm only cutting 2-4mm al sheet and maybe some hardwood as well.
[07:26:46] <XXCoder> indeed
[07:26:49] <Polymorphism> I could save the $1200, if the only real difference is the flat rails vs round
[07:27:12] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure the x6 will make a nicer looking pcb or cleaner cuts, for those type of thicknesses
[07:27:53] <Polymorphism> thats what it comes down to, I think both machines have plenty of power for my needs
[07:28:02] <Polymorphism> it would be, am I buying more accuracy with my $1200
[07:28:12] <Polymorphism> or just throwing money at sturdier machine I dont realluy need for my cuts
[07:28:26] <Polymorphism> off to work, bbl. Maybe someone will see these msgs =D
[07:31:54] <Polymorphism> I'm still here!
[07:31:55] <Polymorphism> 0.05 millimeters is 0.0019685 inches.
[07:32:16] <Polymorphism> thats the claimed accuracy of the x6
[07:32:20] <Polymorphism> http://salecnc.com/catalog/CNC-Router-Milling-DX6090-2-2KW-machine
[07:32:36] <Polymorphism> .01mm claimed here (0.1 mm 0.0039 ″)
[07:32:51] <Polymorphism> oops
[07:33:01] <Polymorphism> 0.01 millimeters is 0.0003937 inches.
[07:33:37] <Polymorphism> so about half a thousandth? for the 6090 there, about .002 for that 6090 beast
[07:33:45] <archivist> they obviously ignore thermal expansion of the machine
[07:33:59] <Polymorphism> raptor machine claims 0.00025 accuracy
[07:34:06] <Polymorphism> not that I need that...
[07:34:16] <Polymorphism> looking up 6040 claim now
[07:34:35] <archivist> take those claims and shove them where the sun dont shine
[07:34:51] <Polymorphism> xD
[07:35:39] <Polymorphism> 6040 claims
[07:35:40] <Polymorphism> Resetting accuracy:
[07:35:40] <Polymorphism>
[07:35:40] <Polymorphism> 0.05mm
[07:35:48] <Polymorphism> "engraving accuracy" better than 0.04mm (has been tested)
[07:35:54] <Polymorphism> has been tested =D
[07:36:22] <Polymorphism> 0.04 millimeters is 0.0015748 inches.
[07:36:55] <Polymorphism> I think I need to be careful not to confuse mechanical position accuracy resetting accuracy engraving accuracy specs etc
[07:37:13] <SpeedEvil> And lies.
[07:37:34] <Polymorphism> @_@ that too
[07:37:38] <archivist> some are downright lies
[07:37:52] <Polymorphism> I'll try to find some real world tests people have done
[07:38:38] <enleth> Polymorphism: it's like car mileages
[07:39:01] <Polymorphism> I think maybe I can only trust the raptor claims, if even those
[07:39:11] <Tom_itx> trust noone
[07:39:19] <enleth> with a professional driver, on a controlled track, on high quality fuel - sure it might go that long
[07:39:22] <archivist> lies it uses a c6 spec screw Accuracy/Repeatability: 0.01mm
[07:39:31] <TurBoss> hi
[07:39:34] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310562732677
[07:39:36] <enleth> but in real life, it's much worse
[07:40:29] <Tom_itx> go visit your undertaker.
[07:40:38] <Tom_itx> if you want better accuracy
[07:42:42] <_methods> jesus is this still going on
[07:43:12] <Polymorphism> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Pk0AAOSwHgVW77ne/s-l300.jpg http://www.8020cnc.com/images/alu_engrave1_large.jpg if the 6040 can do this with this level of accuracy
[07:43:17] <Polymorphism> I think I will just get that and be done!
[07:43:22] <Polymorphism> but only if it will be that clean
[07:43:27] <Polymorphism> I dont want sloppy lettering
[07:43:45] <Polymorphism> as I'm new to cnc I'm not aware of just how accurate even a bad machine may be
[07:43:46] <jdh> buy it
[07:44:05] <_methods> maybe we could ponder on this some more
[07:44:53] <Tom_itx> _methods, i'm not jesus but yes it is
[07:45:00] <_methods> hahah
[07:45:29] <_methods> i thought my wife was irritating when she couldn't decide where she wanted to eat
[07:45:35] <Tom_itx> and if he spoke to you here i'd be impressed
[07:45:44] <XXCoder> _methods: remember that lathe guy?
[07:45:55] <XXCoder> that guys why I made /pee macro
[07:45:56] <XXCoder> Pee on it.
[07:46:31] <Tom_itx> _methods i go thru the same 'food' battle every time. it's ultimately up to me to decide
[07:47:03] <_methods> yeah
[07:47:09] <jdh> 10 suggrstions she shoots down and she keeps saying I don't care
[07:47:14] <_methods> hahahah
[07:47:16] <_methods> exactly
[07:47:24] <_methods> shit is like that but going on for a week now
[07:47:58] <Tom_itx> then she gripes at me for ordering the same thing every time so we did a comparison and found so does she :D
[07:48:06] <_methods> hahah
[07:48:13] <jdh> nobody cares about your money except you
[07:48:43] <Tom_itx> happy monday... i'm off.
[07:48:52] <XXCoder> its always easier to spend other people money
[07:49:52] <TurBoss> Hi
[07:50:06] <TurBoss> who mantains psha repo?
[07:50:10] <Tom_itx> _methods, it just takes her a bit longer on the menu to decide the same thing...
[07:50:12] <TurBoss> key has expired
[07:50:35] <_methods> my wife gets teh same thing every time too
[07:50:50] <Tom_itx> and she probably won't admit it
[07:51:02] <_methods> nah she will admit that one
[07:51:12] <Tom_itx> later...
[07:51:35] <_methods> she just says, "well i guess i'll get my usual"
[07:52:20] <jdh> mine sometimes asks the 17 yr old waitress which is better
[07:52:33] <jdh> wtf does she know what you like
[07:53:17] <_methods> hahaha
[07:57:13] <Polymorphism> www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/303334-cnc.html
[07:57:19] <MrSunshine_> hmm, how to get a hardened dowel out of a hole when you cant get it from the other side ... =)
[07:57:21] <Polymorphism> here is my post with where I'm at currently
[07:57:28] <Polymorphism> thanks again for the help
[07:57:33] <Polymorphism> getting closer to a decision here
[07:57:38] <_methods> lol
[07:57:52] <Polymorphism> back in 8 hours
[07:57:58] <_methods> can't wait
[08:10:44] <archivist> MrSunshine_, any poking out?
[08:11:59] <_methods> how small is the dowel?
[08:49:44] <jdh> I got a dowel pin puller from amazon
[09:22:28] <archivist> and for other awkward hard stuck in blind hole stuff, a diamond burr and a dremel, just takes time
[09:26:49] <JT-Shop> dang old hoe blew a hydraulic hose yesterday... 5 more look just like the one that blew ready any moment
[09:28:30] <_methods> you need to get some new hoes
[09:28:39] <_methods> lol
[09:32:24] <JT-Shop> I'd have to get 1000% more sales to afford a new hoe
[09:32:50] <_methods> pimpin ain't easy
[09:33:38] <witnit> MrSunshine_: where is the pin, can you chuck the part up in a mill?
[09:42:10] <maxcnc> Hi all
[09:42:26] <maxcnc> big storm here
[09:43:52] <maxcnc> JT-Shop: more advertising hels
[09:44:06] <maxcnc> helps
[10:10:04] <jdh> 1000% more work, less time to spend out ho'ing
[10:10:48] <jdh> JT: ever get the roadbike out?
[10:14:05] <archivist> he broke it recently
[10:48:33] <witnit> anyone recognize this brand of machine? http://images.craigslist.org/00G0G_11bHejUT9gP_600x450.jpg
[10:51:28] <archivist> listed as a jig borer ?
[10:51:36] <_methods> yeah it's an old jig bore
[10:51:42] <witnit> more or less
[10:51:42] <_methods> but what brand i have no idea
[10:52:19] <witnit> https://muncie.craigslist.org/bfs/5488813883.html
[10:52:25] <archivist> http://www.1stmachineryauctions.com/lots/newall-jig-borer-with-tooling-and-dro-rotary-table
[10:52:28] <CaptHindsight> brand old
[10:52:30] <witnit> all it shows
[10:53:07] <archivist> worth the price :)
[10:55:41] <_methods> might be a pratt and whitney
[10:55:44] <_methods> i don't think it's a moore
[10:57:12] <CaptHindsight> this one is listed at $1 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/5503310184.html
[10:57:29] <CaptHindsight> Make offer
[10:58:37] <Jymmm> and bring kevlar vest
[10:58:49] <archivist> a SIP
[10:59:46] <archivist> I wish they went that cheap over here
[11:06:28] <CaptHindsight> on todays edition of Guess That Tool: http://images.craigslist.org/00C0C_75HCBceyg0F_600x450.jpg http://images.craigslist.org/00s0s_alVaGqaHORy_600x450.jpg
[11:06:55] <Jymmm> manual drill press
[11:07:09] <CaptHindsight> https://southbend.craigslist.org/tls/5502984947.html
[11:07:36] <CaptHindsight> yeah, but this one was mounted specifically for drilling into beams
[11:08:03] <Jymmm> I think they all were.
[11:32:36] <CaptHindsight> https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/tls/5503363798.html no price
[11:51:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUI-SEIKI-VERTICAL-CNC-MACHINING-CENTER-/401048842728 $2900 or best
[11:52:04] <MrSunshine_> witnit: it wasnt hardened .. drilled it out =)
[11:52:20] <MrSunshine_> only thing i needed to save was the screw so =)
[11:52:31] <witnit> ha I almost asked you to check for that
[11:52:45] <witnit> or even case hardened
[11:54:57] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t34.0-12/12919300_10154050769728648_589695719_n.jpg?oh=6d7e5fa231cfe59a7771ad01670472ba&oe=56FB7643
[11:55:07] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t34.0-12/12910587_10154050769883648_1278856623_n.jpg?oh=c3ac074efcfeac8e2542db446a28c38a&oe=56FC3F9E
[11:55:18] <MrSunshine_> started to rebuild that vice to be more accurate =)
[11:55:46] <MrSunshine_> scraped bottom flat, milled the ways on it on all sides for some sliding later ... so far it diffs from front to back 0.02mm
[11:56:24] <MrSunshine_> and yes the small gauges etc is due to instability in the little X1 mill =)
[12:01:12] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Milling-Machine/401087007288 Matsuura MC-1000V $1k or best
[12:01:24] <CaptHindsight> phoenix, az
[12:03:07] <CaptHindsight> Machine Weight 18,000 Lbs
[12:37:44] <witnit> I wonder where a cheap source for finding these would be https://youtu.be/yZ04iC3J6Mc?t=711
[12:42:29] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: is here?
[12:42:36] <_methods> i hope not
[12:42:42] <Tom_itx> yeah let's
[12:42:51] <Tom_itx> you just type faster
[12:42:55] <_methods> lol
[12:43:32] <pink_vampire> i need him.
[12:43:38] <Tom_itx> i don't
[12:43:43] <_methods> hahahah
[12:43:49] <_methods> i need him to go away
[12:43:54] <pink_vampire> lol
[12:44:02] <Tom_itx> take it to pm if it's not about linuxcnc
[12:44:14] <Tom_itx> or twitter
[12:44:17] <Tom_itx> facebook
[12:44:18] <Tom_itx> etc
[12:44:29] <pink_vampire> but he like to communicate
[12:44:44] <Tom_itx> and so do it
[12:44:56] <Tom_itx> but this channel is decated to a topic
[12:45:07] <djdelorie> or at least supposed to be...
[12:45:35] <Tom_itx> i'm sure we've all strayed a time or two but not page after page after page
[12:45:40] <_methods> i think everyone in here is pretty tolerant of off topic....... but 5 days of asking the same damn question over and over is just stupid
[12:45:44] <pink_vampire> why you are not like him?
[12:45:54] <Tom_itx> now you're misinterpreting
[12:45:58] <Tom_itx> i never said that
[12:46:01] <djdelorie> day after day of the same question, and our answers don't seem to change the questions...
[12:46:05] <djdelorie> that's not communication
[12:46:11] <_methods> ^^
[12:52:24] <archivist> I dont want any ranting from him for us telling him to get x, he has to make his own mind up
[12:52:47] <pink_vampire> ok.
[12:55:00] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, hi
[12:55:12] <pink_vampire> hi Polymorphism!
[12:55:30] <Polymorphism> I'm back for a bit during lunch
[12:55:38] <pink_vampire> i know that you are a google master.
[12:55:57] <Polymorphism> xD what are you trying to find?
[12:56:44] <pink_vampire> the impossible
[12:57:22] <Polymorphism> lol
[12:57:57] <pink_vampire> do you have a wife?
[12:58:07] <Polymorphism> no
[12:58:13] <pink_vampire> gf?
[12:58:26] <Polymorphism> she cheated and is gone now
[12:58:30] <Polymorphism> !
[12:58:32] <Polymorphism> so no
[12:58:47] <pink_vampire> :(
[12:58:52] <Polymorphism> I just focus on school and work though, so its ok =)
[12:59:01] <Polymorphism> more time for that
[12:59:15] <pink_vampire> but you are not a girl?
[12:59:20] <Polymorphism> no
[12:59:25] <pink_vampire> :(
[12:59:30] <Polymorphism> @_@
[12:59:53] <Polymorphism> what are you trying to find with google?
[12:59:56] <Polymorphism> a wife?
[13:00:02] <pink_vampire> no.
[13:00:09] <Polymorphism> xD
[13:00:22] <Polymorphism> a new mill?
[13:01:09] <pink_vampire> no.. I don't really care about stuff like that.
[13:02:08] <CaptHindsight> it's mostly negative attention
[13:02:19] <CaptHindsight> thats why he keeps changing nicks
[13:02:21] <pink_vampire> but I like precision works, and I don't like free hand "art" work
[13:02:34] <Polymorphism> CaptHindsight, you're totally wrong
[13:02:43] <Polymorphism> I cant be on the same nick on my phone laptop and pc
[13:02:52] <Polymorphism> call me obsessive about this search
[13:02:54] <Polymorphism> but dont make things up
[13:03:04] <CaptHindsight> if it was a form of amnesia then he wouldn't play musical nicks
[13:03:05] <Polymorphism> I hide nothing
[13:03:11] <Polymorphism> I am encapsulation polymorphism and inheritance
[13:03:15] <Polymorphism> should be obvious
[13:03:16] <Polymorphism> all OOP
[13:03:24] <_methods> all POOP
[13:03:26] <Polymorphism> xD
[13:03:51] <Polymorphism> and like I said, I really do appreciate all of the help
[13:04:14] <Polymorphism> I'm not really asking the same questions, just really trying to be certain about this
[13:04:22] <Polymorphism> had I ordered 2 days ago, it would have been a different machine
[13:04:27] <Polymorphism> and I would have come to regret it
[13:04:31] <Polymorphism> that's how I am
[13:04:36] <Polymorphism> I need to be 100% on this
[13:04:41] <Polymorphism> I do this for everything actually...
[13:04:44] <Polymorphism> purchase I mean
[13:04:49] <_methods> no wonder your wife left
[13:04:55] <Polymorphism> thanks
[13:05:16] <Polymorphism> as long as I get the best machine for the money, I have no regrets about how long it takes to find what that is
[13:05:49] <Polymorphism> you can see my post I made on cnczone
[13:05:52] <CaptHindsight> and a couple of abuse victims in here that keep feeding him since they don't see it as negative behavior
[13:06:03] <pink_vampire> so I want to find a place / person that it's an expert in eyebrow shaping, one that can achieve the same high quality result each time.
[13:06:03] <Polymorphism> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/303334-cnc.html
[13:06:17] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: you can help me fine it?
[13:06:44] <Polymorphism> thats tough, it depends where you live
[13:06:51] <pink_vampire> NY
[13:06:52] <Polymorphism> and you can't always trust online reviews
[13:06:57] <Polymorphism> especially yelp
[13:07:00] <Polymorphism> they are corrupt
[13:07:00] <pink_vampire> I know.
[13:07:13] <djdelorie> and that is *really* off-topic here, unless you plan on cnc'ing an eyebrow :-)
[13:07:23] <Polymorphism> lol
[13:07:29] <Polymorphism> use your cnc machine for the job
[13:07:34] <Polymorphism> but do you have enough z clearance....
[13:07:56] <Polymorphism> tweezing head in the spindle mount
[13:07:59] <Polymorphism> machine vision...
[13:08:00] <Polymorphism> this could work
[13:08:04] <pink_vampire> djdelorie: if you can do it.. I will go with that.
[13:08:09] <Polymorphism> http://opencv.org/
[13:08:29] <Polymorphism> OpenCV (Open Source Computer Vision Library) is an open source computer vision and machine learning software library. OpenCV was built to provide a common infrastructure for computer vision applications and to accelerate the use of machine perception in the commercial products. Being a BSD-licensed product, OpenCV makes it easy for businesses to utilize and modify the code.
[13:08:44] <Polymorphism> I plan on experimenting with this and the CNC
[13:08:48] <Polymorphism> machinging a camera mount
[13:08:49] <djdelorie> I meant like the other bits of anatomy you've cnc'd models of
[13:08:49] <pink_vampire> do you know how to programi t?
[13:08:55] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, I will be learning
[13:09:11] <Polymorphism> this library
[13:09:30] <pink_vampire> I'm not a programmer.
[13:10:09] <Polymorphism> capacative... touch detectionm?
[13:10:16] <Polymorphism> i
[13:10:20] <Polymorphism> -m
[13:10:24] <pink_vampire> eyebrows cost about 10-75$ each month
[13:10:37] <Polymorphism> eyebrows cost $1 tweezers
[13:10:44] <Polymorphism> but you want automatic, yes?
[13:11:04] <djdelorie> my eyebrows are free and they're always the same shape...
[13:11:11] <pink_vampire> and i can't find anyone that can do it the same each time.
[13:11:39] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: NO
[13:11:40] <Polymorphism> machine vision + cnc
[13:11:47] <Polymorphism> oh, ok
[13:13:21] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure then
[13:24:02] <Polymorphism> 950 / 600 = 1.58
[13:24:17] <Polymorphism> 540 / 360 = 1.5
[13:24:38] <Polymorphism> 580 / 400 = 1.45
[13:25:04] <Polymorphism> 762 / 317.5 = 2.4
[13:25:13] <Polymorphism> I found a new way to compare the machines
[13:25:16] <Polymorphism> the aspect ratio of the bed
[13:25:26] <Polymorphism> perhaps there is another term for it
[13:25:53] <Polymorphism> the raptor is the most rectangular of any bed
[13:26:23] <Polymorphism> you know what
[13:26:30] <Polymorphism> I'm making a google sheet, I'll just link that
[13:26:34] <Polymorphism> brb
[13:26:46] <archivist> it does not matter, jobs fit or they dont
[13:28:18] <Polymorphism> I'll be working more with objects closer to squares though
[13:28:35] <Polymorphism> so the raptor would have to be radically higher production quality for me to give up that work area in the x
[13:28:43] <Polymorphism> which I would do, if it is
[13:28:54] <Polymorphism> I only want to make a guitar as a bonus
[13:29:25] <Polymorphism> what I really need is SMD accurate PCBS and engraving so clean you cant tell its not a professional job
[13:29:36] <Polymorphism> and also clean routing of 2-4mm al sheet
[13:29:46] <Polymorphism> with a work height of ~4" max
[13:29:49] <archivist> minimum dimension matters, aspect ration hardly at all
[13:30:00] <cpresser> Polymorphism: define SMD.. what pitch?
[13:30:33] <Polymorphism> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_Flat_Package
[13:30:37] <Polymorphism> probably no smaller than this
[13:30:41] <Polymorphism> and I want it to be CLEAN
[13:30:42] * cpresser does nothing smaller than 0.5mm on the mill. and double sided is pita as well
[13:30:47] <Polymorphism> I just watched a youtube video of someone milling a pcb
[13:30:52] <Polymorphism> it was 50 likes
[13:30:53] <Polymorphism> 2 dislikes
[13:30:55] <cpresser> well, QFN come in different pitch sizes
[13:30:57] <Polymorphism> but when I looked at the end and paused
[13:31:02] <Polymorphism> the holes werent even!!!
[13:31:06] <Polymorphism> the further to the edge, the more off they were
[13:31:13] <Polymorphism> they almost woulkdnt have functioned near the edge of the board
[13:31:16] <Polymorphism> I can't have that...
[13:31:25] <Polymorphism> 1.27mm pitch
[13:31:33] <Polymorphism> .4
[13:31:34] <Polymorphism> spacing
[13:31:43] <Polymorphism> .4mm spacing
[13:31:51] <cpresser> thats okay for milling.
[13:32:00] <Polymorphism> even with a cheap 6040?
[13:32:04] <cpresser> most likely
[13:32:29] <cpresser> mounting the workpiece it the difficult part
[13:32:45] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz4LCIJyd2A&t=8m0s
[13:33:10] <Polymorphism> pause at
[13:33:14] <Polymorphism> 7:45 to 7:49
[13:33:20] <Polymorphism> "could have done a little better with the drill holes
[13:33:23] <Polymorphism> theyre rubbish
[13:33:27] <Polymorphism> on the right side
[13:33:32] <Polymorphism> everywhere really
[13:33:36] <cpresser> i personally dont think its worth my time making double-sided boards on the mill.
[13:33:53] <cpresser> china manufacturers do way better boards for a few bucks
[13:33:55] <Polymorphism> why is it off by so much there?
[13:34:04] <Polymorphism> which mill do you use?
[13:34:10] <archivist> because china mill
[13:34:15] <Polymorphism> the raptor mill creator says
[13:34:20] <Polymorphism> 1/4 of .001 accuracy I can expect
[13:34:28] <Polymorphism> is that possible?
[13:34:30] <archivist> ignore the salesman!
[13:34:42] <Polymorphism> we spoke on the phone, why would he lie about that
[13:34:47] <Polymorphism> it seems like the whole business is just him
[13:34:51] <_methods> is it possible you'll quit simpering on about this
[13:34:55] <_methods> probably not
[13:35:15] <Polymorphism> what did that add to the discussion?
[13:35:26] <Polymorphism> I'm at the p oint now where I understand the technology enough I know better what I need
[13:35:29] <CaptHindsight> it's not about the MILL it's about the ATTENTION
[13:35:35] <Polymorphism> and I'm concerned about the precision//accuracy of these mills
[13:35:39] <_methods> lol
[13:35:53] <_methods> this guy must be shaun413
[13:35:57] <Polymorphism> you're saying if you pay attention to the details, you can acheive a similar result with most mills?
[13:36:03] <Polymorphism> its more the operator than the machine?
[13:36:08] <shaun413> what?
[13:36:10] <CaptHindsight> give that man a prize
[13:36:12] <_methods> oh jesus
[13:36:17] * archivist smashes the tape recorder, keeps saying the same thing
[13:36:35] <shaun413> u pinged?
[13:36:38] <_methods> no
[13:36:40] <_methods> go away
[13:36:40] <Polymorphism> .00025
[13:36:44] <cpresser> when you jump up and down next to your mill, the dial indicator will wobble by > 0.1mm.
[13:36:46] <shaun413> very well
[13:37:02] <cpresser> at least for simple desktop mills
[13:37:14] <_methods> isn't Jymmm admin
[13:37:17] <shaun413> get something old and solid
[13:37:22] <Polymorphism> ...
[13:37:22] <shaun413> then cnc it
[13:37:25] <Polymorphism> why are people trolling me...
[13:37:29] <Polymorphism> I have some specialty uses...
[13:37:31] <_methods> says the troll
[13:37:31] <shaun413> what.
[13:37:32] <Polymorphism> I want to cut very small pcbs
[13:37:40] <shaun413> then get it outsourced
[13:37:42] <Polymorphism> populated with many components
[13:37:45] <Polymorphism> no I cant do that.
[13:37:49] <shaun413> why would you mill a pcb...
[13:37:51] <shaun413> etch it
[13:37:54] <Not-Renny> Do it with a craft knife Polymorphism
[13:38:04] <djdelorie> Polymorphism: because it's more fun to troll you than to answer the same off-topic questions for five days in a row
[13:38:05] <Jymmm> _methods: ?
[13:38:25] <Polymorphism> I asked a new question
[13:38:33] <_methods> Jymmm: booooot them
[13:38:33] <Polymorphism> I'm trying to understand accuracy
[13:38:46] <Jymmm> _methods: who?
[13:38:51] <djdelorie> does your new question have anything to do with linuxcnc, or are you still trying to pick a machine to buy?
[13:38:51] <_methods> broken record
[13:38:59] <_methods> polyquestion
[13:39:13] <Polymorphism> well as soon as I get the machine, I will be using linuxcnc
[13:39:14] <Not-Renny> What is that fact, accuracy and precision are not the same thing?
[13:39:20] <Polymorphism> they are different
[13:39:27] <Polymorphism> ?
[13:39:30] <Polymorphism> yes
[13:39:54] <Jymmm> Polymorphism: linuxcnc does NOT support USB interfaces. As I recall most things you have mentioned are USB
[13:39:58] <CaptHindsight> Polygalaynoteis, Polylaptopism, Polymorphisim, Encapsulation etc etc
[13:40:04] <Polymorphism> Jymmm, they are all parallel ready
[13:40:11] <Polymorphism> and if not, with a simple 5 dollar wire in mod
[13:40:13] <Polymorphism> no problem there
[13:40:19] <Polymorphism> USB will just be a bonus
[13:40:19] <Jymmm> Not
[13:40:22] <Polymorphism> I'm going to wire it for both
[13:40:38] <Polymorphism> with selector switch
[13:40:48] <Jymmm> Polymorphism: Well, as it stands, you are annoying folks, so it might be best to chill out a bit
[13:41:30] <Jymmm> *POOF*
[13:41:37] <_methods> thx Jymmm
[13:41:37] <djdelorie> +1 Jymmm :-)
[13:41:37] <Jymmm> was it soemthing I said?
[13:41:55] <CaptHindsight> wack-a-mole
[13:42:00] <Jymmm> Oh yeah, I almost forgot...
[13:42:14] <Jymmm> Hi!
[13:42:16] <_methods> look out
[13:43:23] <archivist> it is like a guy walking into a Rolls Royce garage asking the salesman which ford to get :)
[13:43:34] <_methods> that was a painful 5 days
[13:43:50] <Jymmm> the blue one with redneck gunrack!
[13:44:15] <Not-Renny> 5 days?
[13:44:32] <_methods> yes that has been going on for 5 days now
[13:44:40] <CaptHindsight> my ignore list was never so long
[13:44:42] <_methods> that clown asking the same questions over and over
[13:45:13] <Not-Renny> I see.
[13:46:29] <jdh> It's a difficult decision, but he is the only one that cares
[13:47:06] <Not-Renny> Speaking of repeating questions... Just to clarify, is it un-economical to build a whole little machine for grinding lenses, or is it a better idea to use a lathe?
[13:47:15] <CaptHindsight> the worst thing to happen is that you don't like it and resell it
[13:47:26] <Polymorphism> so what is engraving accuracy vs repeating accuracy?
[13:47:34] <_methods> oh jesus
[13:47:37] <Polymorphism> I need to add .03mm spindle runout either way
[13:47:40] <CaptHindsight> so you lose a few hundred $ tops, well worth the lessons
[13:47:53] <Polymorphism> I'm making the excel spreadsheet
[13:48:09] <CaptHindsight> or you learn how to fix it
[13:48:22] <archivist> Not-Renny, the accuracy needed for lenses rather high
[13:48:53] <Not-Renny> So, it's best to design something to work on a much higher order of magnitude of accuracy?
[13:48:55] <CaptHindsight> Not-Renny: I see lathes for that on ebay often
[13:49:16] <archivist> use something made for the job
[13:49:31] <CaptHindsight> another approach is to print lenses using photopolymers
[13:49:35] <Polymorphism> Mechanical Resolution： XYZ-axis : 0.0025 mm/step Positioning accuracy： 0.05mm
[13:49:39] <Polymorphism> does only the larger number matter?
[13:49:43] <_methods> don't they usually grind lenses in a grinding jib?
[13:49:55] <_methods> jig even
[13:50:00] <CaptHindsight> yes, grinder
[13:50:06] <_methods> not in a lathe?
[13:50:09] <Not-Renny> Hm.
[13:50:12] <Polymorphism> Not-Renny, we both need high accuracy
[13:50:26] <Not-Renny> Lol
[13:50:34] <CaptHindsight> similar mechanism, but grind vs cut
[13:50:36] <_methods> ahh you got a new friend
[13:51:03] <Not-Renny> archivist, I don't really need a lens grinder anytime soon, I just think it would be fun to build one.
[13:51:04] <Polymorphism> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Accuracy_vs_Precision
[13:51:08] <Polymorphism> I need both accuracy and precision
[13:51:09] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Autoflow-Engineering-LTD-3173-Optical-Glass-Lens-Polishing-Lathe-/152003374177
[13:51:49] <Polymorphism> that lathe is a bargain
[13:51:53] <_methods> so they polish in the lathe?
[13:51:59] <CaptHindsight> so grinding lathe
[13:52:07] <Polymorphism> and they will take less
[13:52:42] <CaptHindsight> grind >1um, polish <1um
[13:52:52] * _methods knows absolutely nothing about lens making
[13:53:35] <Polymorphism> I have a serious question, http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YWMAAOSw8d9UyYZi/s-l1600.jpg
[13:53:41] <archivist> I have a lens periphery grinding machine rusting away in the garden
[13:53:43] <Polymorphism> how is that round rail any worse than a flat rail like HG20?
[13:53:47] <Polymorphism> it looks fully supported
[13:53:49] <Polymorphism> underneath
[13:54:03] <CaptHindsight> well it's mostly by elves and Santas other slaves
[13:54:05] <cradek> archivist: the machine for edging eyeglass blanks?
[13:54:14] <djdelorie> linuxcnc doesn't care what shape the rails are
[13:54:38] <archivist> cradek, yes one of those
[13:54:39] <Not-Renny> This makes me cry, archivist.
[13:54:48] <Jymmm> Not-Renny: Try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q
[13:55:06] <cradek> archivist: have any photos of it?
[13:55:17] <archivist> no
[13:55:21] <cradek> darn
[13:55:28] <Jymmm> Not-Renny: 1micron
[13:55:37] <Polymorphism> I'll wait for Loetmichel2 he knows these things
[13:55:47] <Polymorphism> he does nice work
[13:55:48] <cradek> I wonder how it was done. I rough mine on the mill and then cut the bevels by hand, and it's hit-or-miss.
[13:56:14] <cradek> the old polished ones are really beautiful compared to what I accomplish
[13:56:24] <archivist> cradek, has a v wheel and a follower for the shape
[13:56:59] <cradek> well that sounds easy, but only one grit?
[13:57:17] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/SPl2cgm0Q-Y?t=1m9s Ultra-high Precision Grinder
[13:57:20] <archivist> as far as I know only one grit
[13:57:30] <cradek> many old lenses have the edges finished as well as the optical surfaces
[13:57:53] <cradek> ... and some look like they were done on concrete
[13:57:55] <djdelorie> cradek: clickspring's youtube videos talk about polishing metals; he uses tin plates with diamond dust paste on them
[13:58:39] <cradek> djdelorie: getting it polished is easy - getting it the right shape and size and polished all at once is harder
[13:58:42] <CaptHindsight> _methods: damn
[13:58:49] <_methods> CaptHindsight: what?
[14:01:26] <jthornton> mmm this is some good sauerkraut
[14:01:56] <_methods> lol
[14:03:23] <Jymmm> jthornton: "Tastes just like chicken!"
[14:03:52] <_methods> i picked these things up at auction in an old toolbox
[14:03:54] <_methods> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dxazxfjvs3sbbka/2016-03-28%2014.28.19.jpg?dl=0
[14:04:07] <_methods> lens measuring thingie magjigs
[14:04:42] <_methods> i only know that because it says lens measure
[14:05:23] <cradek> yep that's a sagitta gauge, marked in diopters
[14:05:43] <cradek> that one is weirdly huge. the little one looks normal
[14:05:51] <_methods> yeah i have no idea what they're supposed to measure
[14:05:59] <_methods> i assumed lenses lol
[14:06:04] <cradek> diopters of an optical surface
[14:06:07] <_methods> or how to use them lol
[14:06:10] <cradek> pretty much, the radius of curvature
[14:06:19] <cradek> you poke them against the lens and read the number
[14:06:26] <_methods> i think i could handle that
[14:06:27] <_methods> hahaha
[14:06:44] <_methods> now i just need to make some lenses apparently
[14:06:48] <CaptHindsight> heh, he built an automated hand lapper for optics https://youtu.be/eMDHA8IE014?t=3m19s
[14:07:25] <cradek> like if you poke the front and read +2 and the back reads -4, the lens is -2 diopter sphere
[14:07:45] <cradek> assuming it's the right index (they are surely calibrated for crown glass)
[14:07:54] <cradek> otherwise correct accordingly
[14:08:21] <_methods> i highly doubt i'll ever be making my own lenses for anything
[14:08:42] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUcBWYVF9s To a Billionth of a Meter: Go Inside a Telescope Mirror Factory
[14:09:06] <gregcnc> make your own invisaligns http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/03/18/college-student-3-d-printed-his-own-braces-to-save-money.html
[14:10:12] <pink_vampire> I'm looking for way covers.
[14:10:34] <archivist> the other way of measuring dioptre http://redsunhyq.en.made-in-china.com/product/QeLxvMNYZbrF/China-Optical-Equipment-Diopter-Lens-Meter-NJC-6A-.html
[14:10:42] <Loetmichel2> *MAAN* now i am pissed. Thats the way to spend an evening. Searching for the leak in the waterbeds bladder (900 liters of water to shove around) while have a freshly stiched palm laceration... fun times :-( -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16197 http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16200
[14:10:47] <pink_vampire> but I want them to be thin.
[14:11:22] <djdelorie> pink_vampire: formica laminate at Home Depot?
[14:11:46] <Not-Renny> Jymmm, that was a very inspirational video.
[14:12:10] <cradek> yeah it's always done optically today. these sag gauges were useful as quick checks back when all lenses were the same material/index.
[14:12:30] <cradek> you can also neutralize with test lenses, which works independent of index
[14:13:19] <CaptHindsight> printing lenses allows to to vary the refractive index of the lens without changing its shape
[14:13:39] <cradek> I don't see how... that is a property of the material
[14:14:03] <CaptHindsight> yes, the material can change every layer, say 1um layers or less
[14:14:04] <archivist> graded index lens is a funky device
[14:14:48] <archivist> the OKI laser printer had a row of them to image the LEDs onto the drum
[14:15:03] <CaptHindsight> photopolymers with slightly different RI for each layer...
[14:15:15] <cradek> wow
[14:15:31] <Not-Renny> Sounds expensive.
[14:15:58] <Jymmm> Not-Renny: Now, start your ebay shopping for parts =)
[14:16:10] <Not-Renny> :P
[14:16:20] * Not-Renny checks the junkyard first
[14:16:45] <Not-Renny> So it turns out we get granite countertop pretty often at our makerspace.
[14:17:00] <CaptHindsight> you can start out say at 1.30 and then end at 1.7 by slowly mixing the two
[14:17:36] <CaptHindsight> 100:1 and work your way to 1:100
[14:18:24] <cradek> wow, so you can get a range of powers with the surfaces matching (thin cosmetically-ideal lens)
[14:18:25] <pink_vampire> djdelorie: in homedepot??????
[14:18:40] <cradek> you could do cylinder or multifocal that way too
[14:18:45] <CaptHindsight> now smooth do they typically get granite counter tops?
[14:18:49] <djdelorie> that's where I got the laminate for my router table
[14:18:53] <CaptHindsight> now/how
[14:19:13] <CaptHindsight> i know it will vary, has anyone measured?
[14:19:32] <pink_vampire> I want that style http://www.dynatect.com/uploads/images/Bellows_ShapeWay2.jpg
[14:20:06] <Not-Renny> Apparently it is very small.
[14:20:06] <Jymmm> djdelorie: junkyard?
[14:20:19] * Not-Renny could honestly just get some plate glass instead
[14:20:59] * Jymmm takes the automatic center punch to Not-Renny's glass =)
[14:21:15] <Not-Renny> :P
[14:21:40] <CaptHindsight> t12: One of Silicon Valley’s Most Esteemed VCs Says Start-ups Are “Mostly Crap” http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/03/chamath-palihapitiya-interview-says-start-ups-are-mostly-crap
[14:21:47] * Not-Renny is actually thinking about annealing all the useless tempered glass at the makerspace
[14:22:29] <archivist> CaptHindsight, I could measure a granite tile I got, probably has a similar polish
[14:22:43] <archivist> this one http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_11_07_Drive_gear/IMG_1400.JPG
[14:23:10] <t12> agree
[14:23:15] <t12> i mean thats a given
[14:23:19] <archivist> I got it because the store roof reflection was good
[14:23:22] <t12> and non news
[14:25:22] <Not-Renny> Is it bad that the only reason I want a 4 axis CNC mill is because I want to make things that make things?
[14:26:07] <_methods> isn't that why all of us get cnc's?
[14:26:12] <_methods> to make things that make things
[14:26:47] <Not-Renny> Okay, so it's not a bad thing. Cool.
[14:27:00] * Not-Renny is glad he is not alone, as he feels so, so alone
[14:27:25] <t12> lol wtf at the maggot comment
[14:30:03] <gregcnc> I tried to find specs for countertop granite a while back, but they nobody actually specs it.
[14:30:15] <_methods> isn't the bottom usually unfinished?
[14:30:23] <CaptHindsight> t12: "He's making a ton of money, while saying that people are overpaying him for crap he bought earlier for less. Of course, he's still selling it to them."
[14:30:28] <gregcnc> saw cut
[14:31:08] <t12> also boo at the apple/fbi commentary at the end
[14:31:29] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: I think the spec is : this size +/- 16th" and polished
[14:31:36] <t12> well presented in his part but a lot of bs
[14:31:44] <gregcnc> right, but for flatness no such thing
[14:31:53] <t12> trying to project the idea that founders are to blame for dog and pony showing it
[14:32:28] <CaptHindsight> gregcnc: "customer should not notice any bumps or bowing"
[14:32:37] <t12> meanwhile, if thata what they finance, thats what theyre going ti get
[14:33:29] <SpeedEvil> 'Subtle ripple texture is a free extra'
[14:33:41] <CaptHindsight> do they make counters 2" thick or are they closer to 1" and then they glue edges on?
[14:34:44] <gregcnc> if you really want they will glue two slabs together
[14:35:23] <CaptHindsight> lots of 2cm vs 3cm discussions
[14:35:24] <archivist> CaptHindsight, 2-4 microinches with excursions to about 8
[14:35:40] <gregcnc> yeha i remember there were two sizes
[14:35:47] <archivist> old mitutoyo surftest III
[14:35:55] <CaptHindsight> <8 microinches
[14:36:11] <archivist> ish, being as hand dragged
[14:36:23] <gregcnc> i was invovled in a project that was going to build a granite top edger before they company folded
[14:36:25] <archivist> and uncalibrated
[14:36:53] <CaptHindsight> 0.2um
[14:37:10] <CaptHindsight> thats good enough for DIY machines
[14:37:52] <CaptHindsight> but thick slabs are rare
[14:37:54] <archivist> I was surprised at how straight the reflection was, no wave effect
[14:37:55] <gregcnc> you could lap it better if you wanted?
[14:38:39] <CaptHindsight> maybe stack 2
[14:38:46] <archivist> 8" granite table place mat it was sold as
[14:39:21] <archivist> so not very thick about 10mm
[14:39:49] <CaptHindsight> I wonder if any of the suppliers can cut them square
[14:40:06] <t12> i ordered a albrecht sensitive chucj adapter thing
[14:40:13] <t12> i wonder how it will be
[14:40:22] <archivist> this is a square tile
[14:40:24] <CaptHindsight> was thinking about a granite surface plate with iron slots on top
[14:40:25] <_methods> if it's albrecht i'm sure it will be just fine
[14:40:42] <t12> ya
[14:40:54] <t12> that is my hope
[14:41:09] <CaptHindsight> if they were made square and flat that could be the base for low cost and accurate routers and small mills
[14:41:37] <archivist> yup
[14:42:22] <archivist> thickness is the main problem
[14:42:52] <archivist> unless one does as that lathe maker did on youtooooob
[14:43:54] <archivist> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q
[14:45:30] <CaptHindsight> the problem is the alignment
[14:45:51] <CaptHindsight> how much the DIYers does vs what you do for them
[14:51:48] <CaptHindsight> granite base with iron t-slot with rails already mounted and squared
[14:52:24] <CaptHindsight> guess you could also just have an iron t-slot base with rails already mounted as well
[14:53:12] <CaptHindsight> precast gantry with pins for alignment
[14:53:49] <CaptHindsight> the DIYer would still have to do the final assembly and alignment
[14:55:46] <CaptHindsight> results would range from "worked like a charm" to "no matter how much I hammered I could not get the parts to fit the way I wanted"
[14:56:40] <archivist> typical Ikea builder then :)
[14:59:56] <CaptHindsight> pins will get them close
[15:00:36] <CaptHindsight> could be lower cost if the user could cast the parts
[15:00:54] <CaptHindsight> but I think I would be expecting way too much from them
[15:03:19] <CaptHindsight> and then there is shipping
[15:03:34] * Tom_itx reads the same backlogs he's been reading the past 5 days
[15:03:58] <CaptHindsight> limit each box to no more than 70lbs for UPS, FEDEX, DHL etc
[15:04:15] <Tom_itx> good thing his timezone timed out or something...
[15:06:12] <Tom_itx> mill in a bucket... send a bucket of exoxy-granite with instructions
[15:06:56] <archivist> ther'es hole in mah bukket dear liza
[15:06:59] <CaptHindsight> 12 x 18 x 3 surface plate is 75lbs
[15:07:17] <Tom_itx> shipping is the killer
[15:08:14] <Tom_itx> then china would be onto your idea and you'd be out of business
[15:08:16] <SpeedEvil> pallet shipping can be not too bad
[15:08:17] <CaptHindsight> if it's all on one pallet then by truck it's ~$200 to just about anywhere in the USA
[15:08:45] <CaptHindsight> I'd be happy if China would copy it
[15:09:02] <CaptHindsight> finally some good machines
[15:09:16] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, are you here
[15:09:22] <CaptHindsight> only they would ship curvy bumpy crap
[15:09:23] <pink_vampire> yes
[15:09:38] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, granite coutertop is probably too thin?
[15:10:28] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: 2" counter with 1" iron t-slot on top would work
[15:10:51] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, https://goo.gl/1QH5N2
[15:10:52] <Polymorphism> I made this
[15:10:59] <Polymorphism> maybe it will help
[15:11:17] <CaptHindsight> maybe iron t-slot with side rails and you pour the base at your home
[15:15:56] <CaptHindsight> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Welding-cast-iron-surface-plate_60196084854.html
[15:16:26] <CaptHindsight> or source pre-ground iron plate in the USA
[15:16:34] <CaptHindsight> cut your own slots
[15:17:32] <CaptHindsight> making the form is easy
[15:18:00] <CaptHindsight> say 70cm x 50cm
[15:18:28] <CaptHindsight> Chicago still has a couple local foundries that can handle that
[15:18:59] <_methods> is there no money at all in casting machine bases?
[15:19:01] <CaptHindsight> have to surface grind and cut slot
[15:19:13] <_methods> or even making quality machines?
[15:19:26] <_methods> i'm guessing if there was any money in it people would be doing it
[15:19:35] <CaptHindsight> it tough since few know the difference anymore
[15:20:18] <_methods> i guess there isn't much market for it anymore
[15:20:22] <_methods> everyone is flippin burgers
[15:20:23] <CaptHindsight> keiling still sells lots of ChinaCo routers since the buyers don't seem to mind the poor quality
[15:20:44] <_methods> no one manufactures anything anymore
[15:20:51] <jdh> I do
[15:21:21] <_methods> well i'm assuming most people in here do
[15:21:24] <_methods> but as a whole
[15:21:31] <CaptHindsight> router in a bucket is a good idea, but I just don't see the DIY skills being there today
[15:21:36] <_methods> this service based economy has taken over
[15:21:59] <_methods> shop isn't taught in school anymore
[15:22:34] <CaptHindsight> sell all the bearings, screws, motors as a kit but how will they be able to get the castings right?
[15:22:47] <CaptHindsight> I thought about selling the forms
[15:22:50] <_methods> if someone made a quality bench lathe/mill/shaper i'd buy one for sure
[15:22:55] <Jymmm> And... it's snowing
[15:23:12] <_methods> get out of the freezer Jymmm
[15:23:26] <CaptHindsight> sell everything except for the granite chips and dust
[15:24:06] <CaptHindsight> _methods: you could cast it but most of the noobs that ask in here i don't think so
[15:24:18] <_methods> my old atlas lathe is a POS but it's still better than anything you can buy nowadays in that size range
[15:24:20] <CaptHindsight> they would be upset that it came out wrong
[15:24:38] <Loetmichel2> POS?
[15:24:48] <_methods> piece of shit
[15:25:18] <jdh> what size atlas?
[15:25:18] <Tom_itx> piece of sunshine
[15:25:22] <_methods> TH-42
[15:25:25] <_methods> 42"
[15:25:38] <jdh> big one
[15:25:41] <CaptHindsight> heh why I always laugh since it's also used for "Point of Sale" which is typically POS software and hardware
[15:25:41] <_methods> it's does what i need it to
[15:25:48] <Tom_itx> _methods how big is your atlas?
[15:25:57] <_methods> TH-42
[15:25:59] <Tom_itx> mine is the old small sears one
[15:26:00] <_methods> 42"
[15:26:04] <jdh> It's 81 and sunny here
[15:26:09] <Tom_itx> maybe the same?
[15:26:11] <_methods> i think 10x42
[15:26:21] <Tom_itx> mine isn't 10
[15:26:32] <jdh> twss
[15:26:41] <_methods> i'll replace it once i find a good south bend for cheap
[15:26:50] <_methods> or something better
[15:27:00] <_methods> but i'm patient
[15:27:06] <_methods> i'll hit something at auction sooner or later
[15:27:21] <CaptHindsight> andy made his own forms and got them cast for <$200
[15:27:29] <_methods> i scored that brown and sharpe #2 universal for $100
[15:27:31] <Tom_itx> saw them
[15:27:36] <CaptHindsight> well he also had to finish machine them
[15:27:54] <_methods> yeah if we had a big grinder here at work i'd just try and get my own cast
[15:28:01] <_methods> and build from scratch
[15:28:37] <_methods> but all we have is little 8x24 grinder
[15:28:49] <_methods> doesn't even have power feed
[15:28:55] <_methods> so F that
[15:29:08] <CaptHindsight> if you setup a surface grinder and mill to just flatten and cut slot 24/7 ...
[15:29:51] <CaptHindsight> what could you make an 18 x 24 plate for?
[15:30:01] <_methods> 8x24
[15:30:07] <_methods> i wish 18
[15:30:50] <CaptHindsight> lost foam would be easy
[15:31:48] <CaptHindsight> even a cast iorn t-slot table would be a big improvement over the aluminum in the ChinaCo
[15:32:03] <CaptHindsight> and cast the gantry
[15:33:57] <archivist> CaptHindsight, just measured flatness of that granite, it is not, 3 thou or worse
[15:34:04] <_methods> ouch
[15:34:29] <enleth> Have you seen mills in which the plane of what you'd call the machine's table surface wasn't parallel to the ground?
[15:34:44] <_methods> like a horizontal mill?
[15:35:44] <CaptHindsight> cast the base and gantry and make them so they are the form for the granite as well
[15:36:45] <CaptHindsight> so even if the granite epoxy job is poor it doesn't effect the assembly and alignment
[15:37:23] <CaptHindsight> it will just have voids or high sports to knock down
[15:37:31] <CaptHindsight> sports/spots
[15:37:38] <witnit> i liked sports better
[15:37:43] <CaptHindsight> hehe
[15:37:50] <witnit> with an accent
[15:37:58] <_methods> like beer pong
[15:38:25] <witnit> >.>
[15:38:29] <witnit> <.<
[15:38:52] <_methods> what other sports are there to play while you're high
[15:38:56] <enleth> _methods: table surface, not spindle
[15:39:04] <_methods> hacky sack
[15:39:46] <_methods> well in a horizontal the table isn't parallel to the ground
[15:40:07] <enleth> _methods: I was just wondering about the naming - a "vertical" mill usually really means "spindle perpendicular to the table", while "horizontal" means "spindle parallel to one table axis"
[15:40:37] <enleth> but in both cases the table is usually parallel to the floor under the machine so the "vertical" and "horizontal" names are easier to use
[15:41:24] <CaptHindsight> slant bed mill?
[15:42:26] <archivist> here is a really odd mill http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=Beichle+die+sinking+or+milling+machine
[15:43:09] <enleth> _methods: in my dictionary a "horizontal mill" is something like Abom79's K&T - there'a an arbor and an overarm that's parallel to the Y axis, but otherwise the table's geometry and movement resembles a vertical knee mill
[15:43:33] <enleth> _methods: so I'm a bit confused by your matter-of-fact "isn't"
[15:43:52] <_methods> in a cnc horizontal the tombstone is the "table"
[15:44:01] <_methods> and it's perpidicular to the ground
[15:44:06] <enleth> CaptHindsight: yeah, that's one of those cases I was thinking about
[15:44:31] <_methods> archivist: that is one crazy ass machine
[15:44:37] <enleth> _methods: isn't that more like HMC area?
[15:44:39] <_methods> a not vtl
[15:45:05] <archivist> _methods, I thought about buying it but did not
[15:45:14] <CaptHindsight> is anyone in Arizona? That matsuura is only $1k or best
[15:45:34] <CaptHindsight> the best deals all seem to come from AZ
[15:45:34] <_methods> it's like if a horizontal, vtl and shaper had an illegitimate child
[15:46:12] <enleth> archivist: I'd call that a Lovecraftian mill, as a homage to the supposed geometries of R'lyeh
[15:46:15] <archivist> dekels with adjustable tables too
[15:48:23] <archivist> thiel had the adjustable table too http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=thiel+milling+machine
[15:49:40] <CaptHindsight> this is what worries me "I still am not sure why the driver has Pulse + / - and Dir + / -. I am accustomed to only a single pulse and dir."
[15:49:55] <CaptHindsight> "If I understand correctly, I just tried connecting the signals from the controller to the - pins and the +5v from the enable to the plus pins, but no luck."
[15:50:06] <_methods> mailing list?
[15:50:20] <CaptHindsight> yet somehow he makes printers for molten glass??
[15:50:26] <CaptHindsight> _methods: yeah
[15:50:54] <_methods> crazee town
[15:51:51] <archivist> CaptHindsight, that driver has output optos and the drives have optos on this image http://www.technoshamanarchist.net/wp-content/uploads/electronics_2.jpg
[15:52:13] <archivist> result not work very well
[15:53:12] <CaptHindsight> I have the BOB on my desk
[15:53:45] * Polymorphism cracks open a cold one
[15:54:16] <archivist> I opened the driver scoped the signals, ah right...design error
[15:54:16] * Polymorphism strokes his pigeon
[15:54:34] <Polymorphism> what scope do you use archivist? do you recommend rigol
[15:54:46] <Polymorphism> I'm also shopping for a scope 50-100mhz
[15:55:00] <Polymorphism> and a scope scope, but I already picked acog =D
[15:55:09] <archivist> I use whichever scope is nearest me, TEK or Advance
[15:55:11] <djdelorie> please don't spend the next five days asking us about scopes...
[15:55:17] <Polymorphism> lol dj I won't
[15:55:20] <archivist> or HP
[15:55:22] <Polymorphism> there is another channel for that
[15:55:32] <Polymorphism> archivist, I'll take a look at some of those
[15:55:54] <archivist> I NEVER buy new
[15:56:21] <archivist> well except once when a scope was on offer
[15:56:35] <CaptHindsight> ah haha!
[15:56:48] <djdelorie> go to eevblog.com - Dave's reviewed LOTS of scopes
[15:57:43] <CaptHindsight> I've found several on ebay for <$200 that just needed the self calibration run
[15:58:02] <Polymorphism> I'll check there, ty
[15:58:07] <archivist> scored an 8 channel HP on ebay
[15:58:11] <Polymorphism> eevblog looks really nice
[15:58:18] <CaptHindsight> the best deals are from sellers that aren't techies
[15:58:21] <witnit> oh neat a horizontal, vertical, horizontal milling machine
[15:58:41] <CaptHindsight> look for powers up but shows calibration error or similar
[15:59:06] <Polymorphism> thats how I got my FW900 CRT for cheap
[15:59:09] <Polymorphism> just needed self cal run
[15:59:12] <CaptHindsight> usually it just needs ti error cleared and the calibration run once
[15:59:26] <Polymorphism> I'll definitely look for those
[16:00:12] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=16500a it is a logic analyser but only has scope plugins
[16:00:25] <CaptHindsight> during the 90's they were also victims of the Bad Caps
[16:01:08] <CaptHindsight> if the electrolyte has leaked all over the PCB it's not worth it
[16:01:54] <CaptHindsight> but still useful for non exact measurements... is signal there, somewhat the right shape etc
[16:03:57] <Polymorphism> I need a logic analyzer also
[16:04:07] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/T-Slot-T-track-Metalworking-Tooling-Fixture-Plate-20-x16-/281818751481 $369
[16:04:35] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/T-Slot-T-track-Metalworking-Tooling-Fixture-Plate-24-x16-/271979545976 $442
[16:04:54] <Polymorphism> damn
[16:04:57] <Polymorphism> those look nice
[16:05:31] <CaptHindsight> aluminum :(
[16:05:33] <DaViruz> look a bit flimsy where the t-slots are
[16:05:35] <archivist> rofl expensive extrusion
[16:06:06] <CaptHindsight> if they were iron....
[16:06:15] <Polymorphism> its cast
[16:07:36] <archivist> t slot bottom is too thin
[16:08:28] <CaptHindsight> if the bottom had a cavity to fill with concrete 2" thick....
[16:11:47] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZbz1WRSWAw
[16:12:59] <Polymorphism> interesting
[16:12:59] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HHIP-3402-0340-16-x-12-x-9-Giant-Slotted-Angle-Plate-/151834109555 $400
[16:13:03] <Polymorphism> I also like how clearly labeled it is
[16:20:24] <CaptHindsight> machined aluminum t-slot with an epoxy granite fill could work
[16:20:49] <CaptHindsight> machined flat with anchors for the granite
[16:25:42] <Deejay> gn8
[16:53:12] <andypugh> Has anyone seen an RS232 to RS485 converter that connects to a motherboard header rather than USB or DB9?
[16:53:57] <andypugh> (My moherboard has pin-headers but no DB9 on the back panel, and I would prefer to avoid a stack of adaptors out the back)
[16:55:40] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, how many times have you cut your hands xD
[16:55:53] <Polymorphism> I'm getting worried
[16:56:06] <Polymorphism> I don't want to lose my fingers @_@
[16:57:34] <Polymorphism> I'm new to cnc... so this might sound absurd
[16:57:38] <Polymorphism> can I just leave the machine
[16:57:40] <Polymorphism> once its running
[16:57:45] <Polymorphism> lets say a very long 3d wood carve
[16:57:49] <Polymorphism> can I just leave and go get lunch etc
[16:57:51] <Polymorphism> and return
[16:57:53] <Polymorphism> or is that poor form
[16:58:09] <Polymorphism> or is that the advantage of cnc (one of them)
[16:58:46] <DaViruz> andypugh: i have not, but perhaps mount a http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61QWj%2B%2BIwwL._SL1154_.jpg to an io-plate (with the device internally)
[16:58:49] <witnit> i think my eat drums are still oscillating
[16:58:50] <DaViruz> and then connect it to the header?
[16:59:09] <witnit> ear*
[16:59:29] <Polymorphism> witnit, what happen
[16:59:35] <andypugh> DaViruz: I am looking more at: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RS485-Module-MAX485-TTL-RS-485-for-Arduino-Raspberry-PI-DIY-SHIELD-/262320647483?hash=item3d13876d3b:g:l6gAAOSwys5WVh9L
[16:59:38] <Polymorphism> someone set you up the bomb?
[17:00:23] <DaViruz> oh. was unsure how much fiddling around you wanted
[17:00:32] <DaViruz> i usually just use a usb-rs485 type deal
[17:01:00] <andypugh> DaViruz: Ideally none. But might put up with some :-)
[17:01:27] <DaViruz> hear hear
[17:01:29] <andypugh> I would prefer to come off of a motherboard header than the back panel.
[17:01:34] <Jymmm> andypugh: Use something like this and a db9 to header all internally? http://www.radioparts.com.au/product/30578005/rs001-rs232-to-rs485-converter
[17:02:04] <Jymmm> only the screw term sticking out the back
[17:02:40] <DaViruz> if you have internal usb headers i guess a usb converter would work, if usb is acceptable, but i guess that isn't very different from a rs232 converter
[17:03:09] <DaViruz> though i am a bit weary of unpowered rs485 converters
[17:03:20] <CaptHindsight> or DB9 breakout
[17:03:21] <Jymmm> You kids and your USB *rolls eyes*
[17:03:37] <Jymmm> REAL UARTS BIOTCHES!!!!
[17:03:44] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/191608563947
[17:03:56] <DaViruz> what is a real uart
[17:03:56] <andypugh> It’s just the pin-header to USB-female to USB male to RS485 to DB9 to DB9 to bit of wire thing that bugs me
[17:04:54] <Jymmm> andypugh: If you unsloder the DB9, you can solder the ribbon cable directly
[17:05:18] <DaViruz> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAV3TTgiGeEB9D-TCVhakqFxoS6MgUD4-9uvM7HEFsGYhZLOWOEQ
[17:05:22] <DaViruz> plus
[17:05:23] <DaViruz> https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpOFP1HH4coFVgkdPOMiq0L85EiQDsJmzitzVvlNgemPHVkQKT
[17:05:25] <CaptHindsight> he's asking for something from the 90's
[17:05:35] <CaptHindsight> who still makes it
[17:05:46] <DaViruz> seems like it would sort it out?
[17:06:04] <DaViruz> if you mount the converter internally with the rs485 db9 in a io-plate
[17:06:12] <andypugh> Yes, but with an awful lot more connections than needed.
[17:06:31] <DaViruz> i only see one extra connection
[17:06:54] <DaViruz> being the internal db9
[17:07:05] <andypugh> There are 4 completely unnecessary D-sub connectors?
[17:07:27] <Jymmm> The Great Gig In The Sky.... AWESOME song.
[17:07:31] <DaViruz> oh
[17:07:43] <DaViruz> i misunderstood, i thought you wanted db9 för the rs485
[17:07:47] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tEgmkFofsA&t=4m45s
[17:07:51] <Polymorphism> clean cuts
[17:08:15] <Jymmm> DaViruz: He wants IDC ribbon cable to ...
[17:08:37] <DaViruz> to dot dot dot?
[17:08:43] <Jymmm> 485
[17:08:49] <DaViruz> yes
[17:08:53] <andypugh> I want pin-header to screw-terminal, really.
[17:08:54] <DaViruz> i am perfectly aware of that
[17:09:03] <DaViruz> 485 isn't a connector though.
[17:09:25] <Jymmm> http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB105vcLXXXXXcWXFXXq6xXFXXXA/2015-3-Sets-X-2-54mm-Pitch-DB9-to-10P-M-F-IDC-Flat-font-b.jpg
[17:09:36] <Jymmm> No, but they dont make what he wants directly
[17:09:38] <andypugh> My USB-to-screw-terminal RS485 just came apart in my hands :-)
[17:10:22] <DaViruz> https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/MOD-RS485/open-source-hardware
[17:10:30] <Jymmm> IanGreat, now solder it in =)
[17:10:32] <DaViruz> though it probably isn't pin compatible, and it needs 3.3V
[17:10:48] <DaViruz> (some mucking about required)
[17:10:59] <andypugh> I reckon I can unsloder the USB plug and fit a header :-)
[17:11:30] <Jymmm> DaViruz: is that the correct pinout?
[17:11:48] <DaViruz> i just said itprobably isn't
[17:11:54] <Jymmm> ah
[17:14:22] <DaViruz> andypugh: i thought the db9 was sort of a sensible way to bring the rs485 through the pc case. but then again i don
[17:14:28] <DaViruz> 't know that you want to bring it out :)
[17:15:24] <andypugh> I don’t have a PC case: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rnBPlxN1-iE/VkUI_CI2gUI/AAAAAAAAF5M/ZpqUZgcXm-83QTQ1Hy2JM0ISvIcH661YQCCo/s800-Ic42/IMG_2193.jpg
[17:16:07] <andypugh> And the wires are a bit congested about the back-panel area. (though I expect to re-wire all that)
[17:16:46] <andypugh> The VFD is also going to move out of that box onto a bracket on the motor.
[17:16:47] <DaViruz> ooops, time flies, need to go home and unload the enduro bike
[17:17:08] <andypugh> DaViruz: Had a good week in Andermatt last weej
[17:17:20] <DaViruz> oh
[17:17:37] <andypugh> I thought of suggesting it to you, but didn’t see you.
[17:17:50] <DaViruz> i decided to put off the alps for this year, i did book a weekend in norway though
[17:18:36] <andypugh> A chap in my group put up a bunch of photos and videos: https://goo.gl/photos/6JXsiHgFetaPStew6
[17:20:06] <DaViruz> oh. i'll have to look through that
[17:20:15] <DaViruz> i bought a pair of powder skiis as well
[17:20:27] <andypugh> Which ones?
[17:20:40] <DaViruz> salomon q-105
[17:21:21] <DaViruz> all mountain with a lean towards powder i guess
[17:22:46] <andypugh> I was expecting you to say “Soul 7” as that seems to be the super-popular ski at the moment
[17:24:21] <andypugh> It looks like the sun shines through the tips of both :-)
[17:25:34] <DaViruz> i did look at soul 7 actually, but then i tried a coworkers rocker2 skis, which i rather liked, except for the mid mounted bindings
[17:26:28] <andypugh> You like the bindings at one end?
[17:27:08] <DaViruz> slightly towards one end :)
[17:27:57] <DaViruz> "park center mount" seems to be the correct terminology
[17:28:09] <DaViruz> (we just call it mid mount)
[17:28:41] <Polymorphism> http://www.rockler.com/cnc-shark-routing-system-with-new-7-0-software
[17:28:42] <andypugh> Actually, somebody in my party noticed that the mid-point line on the 180 Soul 7 is _exactly_ the same distance from the tail as on the 172 Soul7. It is like the 180 Soul7 has the front half of the 188 and the back half of the 172. He hated the 180 compared to his own 188 (he rented 188 with toue bindings)
[17:28:43] <Polymorphism> good deal?
[17:29:57] <DaViruz> that seems a bit strange
[17:30:00] <andypugh> Hard to say, it doesn’t list a price if you are in the UK.
[17:31:13] <DaViruz> http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0194/7554/files/Rossignol_Soul_7_air_tip_large.JPG?3369
[17:31:25] <DaViruz> oh, the sun really does shine through :)
[17:31:55] <andypugh> Yeah, it looks kind-of cool.
[17:32:12] <sabrex> Polymorphism: that is far inferior to the x6 or raptor
[17:32:29] <Polymorphism> I thought so
[17:32:34] <Polymorphism> http://romaxxcncrouters.com/store#!/Romaxx-HS-1-CNC-Router/p/10142335/category=2549172
[17:32:38] <Polymorphism> this though...
[17:32:41] <Polymorphism> is the same price as the x65
[17:32:43] <Polymorphism> -5
[17:33:04] <Polymorphism> and xzeroraptor
[17:33:24] <Polymorphism> the rails look like a very different construction
[17:33:24] <sabrex> wow that thing is blinged out
[17:33:46] <andypugh> But also: http://www.doglotion.com/2015-salomon-q-lab-review has the same shot with yours doing the same trick
[17:34:20] <Polymorphism> those look nice
[17:34:28] <Polymorphism> I want to ski now
[17:34:44] <andypugh> It’s getting a bit late to ski now.
[17:35:14] <sabrex> Polymorphism: the belt drive looks weak
[17:36:44] <DaViruz> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOj3XEm37_rVW0X5ushbGll7MFw8Y3IZNEfL704kYC2LzbjPiwhSZBeRXPlkhBXiQ/photo/AF1QipPDd0ErkeQeE-h4kSiUvENpQRmv-EAXrFaYDGER?key=djBRa0FuT0taREhCNnJzRk40R3BrZ00zLUlTcmp3
[17:36:50] <DaViruz> i'd be worried about getting lost.. :)
[17:37:27] <andypugh> I like the romaxx side rails. I prefer the screws on the Rockler. But neither really appeal.
[17:37:47] <DaViruz> i kind of like getting myself lost on purpose sometimes, but it doesn't seem like a good idea there
[17:37:57] <Polymorphism> welded base sounds nice
[17:38:23] <andypugh> DaViruz: The holiday included a mountain guide every day :-)
[17:38:27] <Polymorphism> andypugh, I really appreciate that feedback
[17:38:31] <DaViruz> oh.
[17:38:41] <DaViruz> that sounds like a good idea
[17:39:53] <DaViruz> oh well, still have the ktm to sort out. i may have a few hobbies too many
[17:40:19] <andypugh> My GasGas hasn’t moved for about a year
[17:41:06] <DaViruz> oh. enduro or trial?
[17:41:21] <andypugh> Enduro, EC200
[17:41:39] <DaViruz> a friend has a ec125r
[17:42:14] <Polymorphism> would you mind giving your opinion on just two more machines?
[17:42:17] <Polymorphism> andypugh,
[17:42:33] <andypugh> Bear in mind that my opinions are just opinions.
[17:42:41] <Polymorphism> http://salecnc.com/catalog/CNC-Router-Milling-DX6090-2-2KW-machine http://www.xzerocnc.com/raptor.htm http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-6040-DESKTOP-4AXIS-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-US-/221354177332?hash=item3389bcb334:g:yoIAAOSwm8VUyYZi http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[17:42:53] <Polymorphism> those are the 4 machines I'm deciding between
[17:43:19] <Polymorphism> https://goo.gl/1QH5N2
[17:43:23] <Polymorphism> spreadsheet with their specs I made
[17:43:32] <malcom2073> You're up to 4 now??
[17:43:35] <Polymorphism> http://artfab.art.cmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dscn6119.jpg http://www.8020cnc.com/images/alu_engrave1_large.jpg http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Pk0AAOSwHgVW77ne/s-l300.jpg
[17:43:38] <Polymorphism> the work I want to do
[17:43:45] <Polymorphism> yes malcom2073
[17:43:55] <malcom2073> You're gonna beat yourself to death over this choice heh
[17:44:04] <Polymorphism> I have a contact in china who can ship to boston with a great price on that 6090
[17:44:08] <Polymorphism> same price as the raptor or x6
[17:44:41] <Polymorphism> malcom2073, I hope not @_@
[17:44:58] <Polymorphism> andypugh, I understand. You seem to know about cnc machines though, and their quality
[17:45:03] <Polymorphism> for me, it's all new.
[17:45:07] <sabrex> i think you should get the 6090 and then you can tell us all how it is
[17:45:17] <sabrex> be our guinea pig!
[17:45:19] <Polymorphism> haha
[17:45:27] <Polymorphism> it is the most unknown of all the options
[17:45:42] <Polymorphism> not much info out there
[17:45:46] <Polymorphism> it looks very rigid though
[17:45:50] <Polymorphism> I think...
[17:45:56] <Polymorphism> and the HG-20 style rails are nice
[17:46:02] <andypugh> The 6090 has the same rails as the Rockler. I would be very suspcious of any 800W _DC_ spindle, that sounds like a lot of brush wear.
[17:46:45] <Polymorphism> the ebay 6040 you mean?
[17:47:08] <Polymorphism> I can purchase this machine: http://salecnc.com/catalog/CNC-Router-Milling-DX6090-2-2KW-machine for 2800 shipped with 1.5kw spindle, it looks nicer than the 6040 I think
[17:47:37] <Polymorphism> if its as nice as the x6, I would spend the 300 more to get the much larger work area
[17:47:37] <sabrex> i dont think the 6090 has hg20s on all axes
[17:47:57] <Polymorphism> but also, if the raptor is so much nicer than any of these, I'd give up work area for quality. he said it cuts steel
[17:48:08] <andypugh> Polymorphism: Sorry, I got confused by the two URLs together
[17:48:09] <Polymorphism> let me take a look sabrex
[17:48:17] <Polymorphism> andypugh, sorry yeah, I sent 4 URLs there on one line
[17:48:36] <Polymorphism> omio x6, xzero raptor, ebay 6040, chinacnc DX-6090
[17:49:20] <Polymorphism> andypugh, I also sent 3 links a few lines later with the work I need the machine to do
[17:49:37] <andypugh> Does the Raptor exist? I get suspicious when they only show renders.
[17:49:41] <Polymorphism> yes, its real
[17:49:50] <Polymorphism> I talked to the owner on the phone for 30 minutes
[17:49:53] <Polymorphism> he makes the frames in canada
[17:50:07] <Polymorphism> he sells to a lot of pool cue makers and guitar makers I guess
[17:50:20] <Polymorphism> he claimed more than .001" accuracy
[17:50:25] <Polymorphism> is possible
[17:50:35] <Polymorphism> I will use chinese spindle so I think not
[17:51:05] <Polymorphism> it uses 3660 DSP driver and 311oz steppers
[17:51:57] <andypugh> I don’t like the look of the leadscrew thrust arrangement on the OmioCNC
[17:52:34] * Polymorphism takes a look
[17:53:56] <Polymorphism> I'd like to cut quality like this: http://www.bobsavage.net/otherjunk/lollygagger/lollygagger-wood-enclosures-4.jpg http://www.bobsavage.net/otherjunk/lollygagger/lollygagger-wood-enclosures-2.jpg
[17:53:57] <andypugh> The Raptor has real guides and ball screws (if the render is accurate). It looks better quality, but costs an awful lot more when yopu staet adding table tops and motors.
[17:54:13] <Polymorphism> andypugh, forget the prices there
[17:54:15] <Polymorphism> sorry about that
[17:54:17] <Polymorphism> the site is outdated
[17:54:26] <Polymorphism> 12.5"x30"x5.5" mini raptor
[17:54:34] <Polymorphism> my cost is 2500 total for everything ready to run
[17:54:36] <Polymorphism> with 1.5kw spindle
[17:54:55] <Polymorphism> so same as x6, and less than dx6090
[17:55:01] <Polymorphism> but maybe a better machine...
[17:55:07] <andypugh> I would say that the fact it is possible to talk to a real person at the factory is a huge plus.
[17:55:17] <Polymorphism> that's true
[17:55:19] <Polymorphism> I think it's just him
[17:55:28] <Polymorphism> he posts on the forums and he answered when I called, and it was him when I emailed
[17:55:40] <Polymorphism> maybe he has one or two others who help
[17:55:42] <Polymorphism> not sure
[17:55:43] <andypugh> That wouldn’t worry me.
[17:55:51] <Polymorphism> ok
[17:55:59] <andypugh> Pico and Mesa are largely the same
[17:56:45] <Polymorphism> sorry, I don't understand
[17:56:47] <Polymorphism> what do you mean
[17:57:39] <Polymorphism> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=accessories&producttype=multiple-axis-stepper-drives&series=MX&model=MX3660
[17:57:43] <Polymorphism> thats the controller
[17:57:54] <andypugh> They are companies with few or zero employees.
[17:58:01] <Polymorphism> to add that controller and 3x 311oz steppers is $350
[17:58:05] <Polymorphism> I could also source my own
[17:58:15] <Polymorphism> I included that in the $2500 price I mentioned
[17:58:26] <Polymorphism> it looks fairly nice though I think...
[17:58:27] <andypugh> OK
[17:59:04] <Polymorphism> I'm trying to find out how it compares to geckodrive
[17:59:16] <andypugh> Of them all, I like the look of the Raptor most. But I would _really_ like the photo to have been of the actual thing.
[17:59:37] <Polymorphism> do you have facebook?
[17:59:43] <Polymorphism> they have lots of pictures there, but you need to log in
[17:59:49] <andypugh> Leadshine have a decent reputation, being slightly tarnished by clones.
[18:00:03] <andypugh> I prefer to avoid facebook.
[18:00:09] <Polymorphism> he says they will ship direct from the manufacturer so I think it should be real
[18:01:06] <Polymorphism> just one last question andypugh , I'm tempted by the DX6090 for huge work area and claimed .01mm accuracy
[18:01:09] <Polymorphism> http://salecnc.com/catalog/CNC-Router-Milling-DX6090-2-2KW-machine
[18:01:14] <Polymorphism> does it look any good compared to the raptor?
[18:01:25] <Polymorphism> or for my needs http://artfab.art.cmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dscn6119.jpg
[18:01:30] <Polymorphism> http://www.bobsavage.net/otherjunk/lollygagger/lollygagger-wood-enclosures-2.jpg
[18:01:55] <Polymorphism> I'll upload a picture of the real machine to imgur
[18:03:37] <andypugh> Polymorphism: I did a google search and found some.
[18:04:14] <Polymorphism> andypugh, http://i.imgur.com/lMaUeKl.jpg
[18:04:17] <Polymorphism> that picture might show it better
[18:04:24] <Polymorphism> does it still look the best?
[18:04:29] <andypugh> Does the SaleCNC come with the cpmputer? (Or is that wierd box something else?)
[18:04:56] <Polymorphism> thats the spindle VFD, the drivers, the controller, and the PSU
[18:04:59] <Polymorphism> all in a computer case xD
[18:05:24] <sabrex> is that the real size in the imgur pic?
[18:05:41] <Polymorphism> thats not the mini, no
[18:05:43] <Polymorphism> thats the larger model
[18:05:48] <Polymorphism> but he says its the same construction
[18:05:51] <andypugh> I like that the SaleCNC is an AC inverter spindle. And the other parts seem similar to the Raptor, though not quite so nicely executed.
[18:06:35] <andypugh> I assume the Raptor is one central screw and the SaleCNC has two motors and 2 screws?
[18:07:14] <Polymorphism> I don't know
[18:07:26] <Polymorphism> btw, the price $2500 for raptor I'm including a spindle like that one
[18:07:29] <Polymorphism> liquid cooled 1.5kw
[18:07:35] <Polymorphism> same as I would get with the 6090
[18:07:45] <Polymorphism> the 6090 would be $2800
[18:07:47] <Polymorphism> both prices shipped
[18:07:50] <Polymorphism> same 1.5kw spindle
[18:07:57] <Polymorphism> so it would come down to work area, and quality of the machines
[18:08:16] <Polymorphism> did you see the pcb, the alu lettering, etc I linked?
[18:08:27] <Polymorphism> I also notice, salecnc has rod on the Z
[18:08:31] <Polymorphism> raptor has the flat rails
[18:08:38] <Polymorphism> not sure how much it matters
[18:08:57] <Polymorphism> salecnc has quick adjust z clearance which is nice
[18:09:03] <Polymorphism> raptor he claims can cut steel...
[18:09:38] <Polymorphism> salecnc I think is just one motor per axis
[18:09:41] <Polymorphism> if thats what you meant
[18:11:07] <andypugh> The drawback of the saleCNC having a larger work area is that everything gets more flexible unless you scale-up in all dimensions.
[18:11:18] <andypugh> And they haven’t.
[18:12:07] <Polymorphism> hmm
[18:12:44] <Polymorphism> I would only be using it for hardwood for large cuts
[18:12:56] <Polymorphism> smaller cuts would be routing thinner alu 2-4mm thick and engraving logos labels etc
[18:13:03] <andypugh> So, I can see the Raptor cutting steel (gently) because it is relatively sturdy. On the other hand, no matter what machine you have, you always find yourself wishing it was bigger.
[18:13:05] <Polymorphism> also cutting pcbs for SMD .4mm pitch
[18:13:33] <Polymorphism> http://i.imgur.com/zId7SRZ.jpg
[18:13:46] <Polymorphism> these are cut by the mini raptor, I don't know if it proves anything. they look nice to me
[18:13:50] <Polymorphism> but maybe 6090 can do the same
[18:14:01] <Polymorphism> I don't know what material that is
[18:15:11] <Polymorphism> andypugh, right. I don't want to wish I had more work area than the raptor offers. But I also don't want to be disappointed with the accuracy of the DX-6090
[18:15:14] <andypugh> Looks OK. You would get a better finish on a stiffer machine. (like a cast-iron millimg machine)
[18:15:38] <Polymorphism> I won't actually be cutting anything that thick I don';t think
[18:16:08] <Polymorphism> http://g01.s.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1MrL1GXXXXXbcXFXXq6xXFXXXo/200042748/HTB1MrL1GXXXXXbcXFXXq6xXFXXXo.jpg
[18:16:10] <Polymorphism> this is what I want to cut
[18:16:21] <Polymorphism> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Pk0AAOSwHgVW77ne/s-l300.jpg
[18:16:24] <Polymorphism> to make it like that
[18:17:12] <Polymorphism> andypugh, I'll consider carefully the points you've made
[18:17:13] <Polymorphism> thank you
[18:17:28] <witnit> to make it? or just cut out the windows?
[18:17:44] <Polymorphism> to cut out the windows
[18:18:10] <Polymorphism> also stuff like this: http://artfab.art.cmu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dscn6119.jpg
[18:18:41] <Polymorphism> http://www.8020cnc.com/images/alu_engrave1_large.jpg
[18:18:42] <Polymorphism> also that
[18:18:44] <sabrex> i keep getting cuts when milling metal. yesterday i brushed over an aluminum burr and barely felt a thing then i see i have some flesh hanging off a knuckle
[18:18:48] <Polymorphism> milling the cuts and engraving the labels
[18:18:48] <andypugh> I thought my milling machine was big enough, then found myself doing this: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-91-NA1wVDtc/VniV8_rUNLI/AAAAAAAAGEY/zVKMwqdwc04tdq8Ie_bJix_1Ise895unACCo/s1024-Ic42/IMG_2236.jpg
[18:19:02] <Polymorphism> sabrex, thats one of my fears....
[18:19:05] <Polymorphism> andypugh, let me take a look
[18:19:13] <Polymorphism> lol
[18:19:16] <Polymorphism> wow
[18:19:29] <DaViruz> that raptor machine looks kind of nice, i'm sort of shopping for a cnc router
[18:19:48] <Polymorphism> DaViruz, if you're budget is 3000 or less check out those options I found for sure
[18:19:54] <Polymorphism> if you can spend more, maybe its better to buy something else
[18:19:55] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure
[18:20:01] <Polymorphism> your*
[18:20:34] <Polymorphism> https://goo.gl/1QH5N2
[18:20:37] <Polymorphism> there is a spreadsheet I made
[18:20:42] <andypugh> I think that the Raptor has a real guy on the end of the phone would sell it to me.
[18:20:51] <DaViruz> at the moment i can't really spend anything :)
[18:20:59] <witnit> andypugh: build one of these http://www.toyodausa.com.php53-26.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/images/uploads/toyodaTrunnion.jpg
[18:21:07] <Polymorphism> andypugh, true
[18:21:13] <Polymorphism> hes only 8 hours away from me
[18:21:16] <Polymorphism> unlike china
[18:21:19] <DaViruz> i would like to see a ral photo of the raptor though
[18:21:28] <Polymorphism> I am talking to a rep in china about the 6090
[18:21:37] <DaViruz> i guess there was one or two of a few details
[18:21:38] <Polymorphism> but who knows if they will be there if I have a problem
[18:21:47] <Polymorphism> DaViruz, did you see the one I limnked
[18:21:53] <Polymorphism> http://i.imgur.com/zId7SRZ.jpg
[18:21:59] <Polymorphism> sorry wrong one
[18:22:00] <Polymorphism> 1 sec
[18:22:06] <DaViruz> that one i did see :)
[18:22:15] <Polymorphism> DaViruz, http://i.imgur.com/lMaUeKl.jpg
[18:22:28] <DaViruz> ah!
[18:22:50] <Polymorphism> its slightly different but mostly the same
[18:23:01] <andypugh> The SaleCNC has nicer wiring
[18:23:11] <Polymorphism> no wiring on the xzero
[18:23:20] <Polymorphism> he ships me for 1750 the frame and switches and spindle mount
[18:23:29] <Polymorphism> and 3x motor and the 3660
[18:23:31] <andypugh> Ah, you do that yourself?
[18:23:32] <Polymorphism> then I priced out a spindle
[18:23:33] <Polymorphism> yeah
[18:23:36] <Polymorphism> I put it all together from there
[18:23:46] <Polymorphism> frame comes flat packed
[18:23:55] <Polymorphism> linear flat rails ship direct from overseas
[18:24:00] <Polymorphism> controller and motors from california
[18:24:06] <Polymorphism> the frame mount etc from canada
[18:24:17] <Polymorphism> does that change your opinion of it?
[18:24:42] <Polymorphism> my total cost for a functioning machine is the $2500 I quoted
[18:24:53] <sabrex> the rails come separate from the machine?
[18:24:56] <Polymorphism> yes
[18:24:59] <sabrex> and you have to install them yourself?
[18:25:06] <Polymorphism> I assemble it all
[18:25:10] <sabrex> aligning them will be a pain in the ass
[18:25:13] <Polymorphism> he includes gantry // frame instrction
[18:25:17] <andypugh> Steppers come with 4 loose wires. It’s annoying. I found a way round it, but ruined one motor in the process. You can see it in this photo: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FDkYxHV7vt4/SvyKWfFR60I/AAAAAAAACjM/ALKyIMsDpYEaneCNHa2sPEOdBVDJb7AQgCCo/s800-Ic42/IMG_0467.JPG
[18:25:21] <Polymorphism> he says I dont have to square anything
[18:25:25] <Polymorphism> I just bolt it together no special tools
[18:25:30] <Polymorphism> something about the way the pieces are cut
[18:25:44] <sabrex> interesting
[18:25:44] <Polymorphism> machined mating surfaces maybe
[18:25:50] <andypugh> Sounds plausible.
[18:25:52] <Polymorphism> "Every mating surface is machined completely flat"
[18:25:54] <DaViruz> i've seen a few steppers that have either a connector or a small box
[18:26:37] <Polymorphism> he seemed to know what he was talking about in terms of cnc. he said he could give me more z but didnt recommend it
[18:26:44] <Polymorphism> I could get 7" z instead of 5.5"
[18:26:47] <Polymorphism> just 90 more
[18:26:52] <Polymorphism> but he said it wont be as strong
[18:27:00] <Polymorphism> he also told me NOT to buy 4660
[18:27:02] <DaViruz> http://www.orientalmotor.com/images/mainContent/rk-terminalbox.jpg
[18:27:03] <andypugh> That’s what I was saying.
[18:27:06] <Polymorphism> when he could have had $100 more
[18:27:11] <Polymorphism> seems honest...
[18:27:37] <Polymorphism> DaViruz, ah I see
[18:27:44] <Polymorphism> andypugh, indeed
[18:28:05] <DaViruz> kind of expensive though, sort of kills the only thing steppers have going for them :)
[18:28:19] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, wants me to buy servos for 1000 USD
[18:28:24] <Polymorphism> I don't think I need that
[18:28:35] <Polymorphism> thats what he recommends instead of steppers I mean
[18:29:15] <andypugh> You will probably become a servo advocate eventually :-)
[18:29:32] <DaViruz> steppers can work well enough a lot of times, but... :)
[18:29:34] <andypugh> But the hybrid closed-loop steppers are worth a look
[18:30:08] <Polymorphism> I should consider this...
[18:30:10] <Polymorphism> the motor kit is optional
[18:30:19] <Polymorphism> but $350 for 3660 controller and 3x 311oz motors...
[18:30:22] <Polymorphism> not sure I can beat that price
[18:31:00] <andypugh> Polymorphism: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Leadshine-Closed-Loop-Hybrid-Servo-Drive-Kit-HBS57-Driver-Motor-encoder-/251942156746?hash=item3aa8ec39ca:g:EiAAAOxydlFSutQh
[18:31:37] <Polymorphism> 176 us x 3x
[18:31:41] <Polymorphism> + controller
[18:31:44] <Polymorphism> hmm
[18:31:58] <andypugh> Controller? LinuxCNC is the controller
[18:32:05] <Polymorphism> so I just need those 3???
[18:32:17] <Polymorphism> but what about lpt port
[18:32:21] <Polymorphism> did I mention this is my first cnc???
[18:32:23] <andypugh> Well, probbaly a break-out board for the LPT
[18:32:24] <Polymorphism> I should have
[18:32:28] <DaViruz> that was a very agreeable price.
[18:32:51] <Polymorphism> are you saying I would only need those?
[18:32:56] <Polymorphism> I could get servo for a similar price?
[18:33:06] <andypugh> No, a servo would be a lot more
[18:33:12] <Polymorphism> oh, ok.
[18:33:22] <Polymorphism> is it more accurate?
[18:33:31] <Polymorphism> I could always upgrade later I think
[18:33:42] <Polymorphism> but I dont want to if stepper isnt adequate
[18:33:47] <andypugh> But the closed-loop steppers get pretty close to servo performance.
[18:33:49] <DaViruz> oh that is a stepper?
[18:33:58] <Polymorphism> ohh I see
[18:34:00] <DaViruz> the U V W connections had me fooled
[18:34:17] <djdelorie> UVW sounds like a servo
[18:34:28] <Polymorphism> how do I drive 3 of those
[18:34:35] <andypugh> DaViruz: Well, it gets complicated. They are being used as a 2-phase brushless servo with a very high pole count.
[18:34:37] <Polymorphism> there is a board that connects all 3 and has lpt?
[18:34:43] <sabrex> uvw sounds like texture mapping coordinates
[18:34:52] <witnit> servo systems can be really cheap if you buy them used :)
[18:35:27] <djdelorie> hopefully your servo has an encoder, or you have an optical DRO-style system for feedback...
[18:35:28] <andypugh> Hang on. That _is_ a 3-phase servo.
[18:35:35] <Polymorphism> lol
[18:35:36] <Polymorphism> what?
[18:35:39] <andypugh> I was looking for something else
[18:35:43] <Polymorphism> that seems like a decent price...
[18:35:45] <DaViruz> it does say step angle 1.2 degrees though
[18:35:50] <witnit> they can come in many sizes with various feedbacks and you can often get them from machines which are being scrapped for entirely different reasons
[18:36:05] <djdelorie> servo control electronics cost more than stepper control electronics, though, and you need some sort of feedback system too.
[18:36:05] <Polymorphism> witnit, maybe I'll go that route later
[18:36:14] <andypugh> DaViruz: Well, it is taking step-dir input, so that makes sense
[18:36:16] <Polymorphism> djdelorie, ah... I thought I could just plug those into the linux pc
[18:36:29] <DaViruz> andypugh: true!
[18:36:54] <DaViruz> if that was available with analogue input for velocity mode, i'd be VERY interested
[18:36:59] <djdelorie> well, *my* servo controllers do, but those are $200 per drive, and my servos have encoders, which not all do.
[18:37:17] <djdelorie> there are other types of servo drives that use other interfaces besides LPT
[18:37:47] <andypugh> In this case, you can. The feedback is from the motor to the drive, it isn’t clear if the encoder feedback can go to LinuxCNC too.
[18:37:48] <Polymorphism> I see
[18:38:37] <andypugh> DaViruz: There isn’t much practical difference between pulse-rate velocity control and analogue voltage velocity control.
[18:38:50] <djdelorie> andypugh: I considered an encoder pass-through on the next rev of the board, to feed to the pc. Not much point though as it should always match what the pc thinks
[18:38:58] <DaViruz> the practical difference would be closing the loop in linuxcnc
[18:39:32] <andypugh> DaViruz: You can do that with a velopcity-mode stepgen
[18:39:32] <djdelorie> unless I added some other interface besides step or cbus
[18:39:40] <DaViruz> i guess it'd be possible to split the encoder signals
[18:39:57] <DaViruz> but i've heard bad things about using position mode drivers like that
[18:40:15] <andypugh> djdelorie: One scheme is velocity-mode stepgen in LinuxCNC and actual position feedback from digital scales.
[18:40:40] <djdelorie> yeah, that's probably ideal. The servo drive would still benefit from an encoder though
[18:41:00] <djdelorie> just to give it a better idea of where the rotor is
[18:41:18] <djdelorie> unless linuxcnc wants to drive UVW directly ?
[18:41:42] <DaViruz> the only servo drive scheme possible without encoder feedback is torque mode, which is a layer below velocity mode even
[18:41:51] <djdelorie> no, then linuxcnc would need the encoder data as well as the glass scale data
[18:42:20] <andypugh> djdelorie: In some setups LinuxCNC _does_ drive UVW directly.
[18:42:25] <djdelorie> Even torque mode needs some form of rotor tracking, although if you can accept some crudity, simulated tracking will do
[18:42:48] <djdelorie> andypugh: I assume some smarter-than-lpt electronics is involved? ;-)
[18:43:32] <andypugh> An example is the Mesa 7i39 drive, it passes encoder data back from the motor to the Mesa card, then a HAL component sends 3 separate phase duty cycles.
[18:43:46] <djdelorie> cool
[18:43:48] <DaViruz> oh
[18:44:21] <andypugh> djdelorie: Yes. Though one guy has actually managed to run a fanuc servo with only a parallel port and AMC PWM drive.
[18:44:56] <andypugh> djdelorie: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html
[18:45:00] <djdelorie> heh, the 7i39 wouldn't work for me anyway, my servos are 160v
[18:45:17] <djdelorie> is that new? I don't recall that in my old version
[18:45:23] <DaViruz> you'd need to amplify it yourself i assume?
[18:45:40] <djdelorie> DaViruz: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
[18:45:40] <DaViruz> to the required servo voltage and current
[18:45:57] <djdelorie> in theory, I can do up to 7 HP with water cooling :-)
[18:46:16] <DaViruz> for the 7i39 scheme i mean
[18:47:15] <djdelorie> not sure you can post-amplify that kind of driver
[18:47:15] <DaViruz> oh no it's actually designed to drive the motor too :O
[18:47:23] <andypugh> DaViruz: The Mesa 8i20 is a 300V drive. That takes a rotor angle and current command as digital serial data…
[18:47:29] <DaViruz> i thought it would output some simpy control signal
[18:47:53] <DaViruz> wimpy
[18:56:59] <minibnz> hi all i need help.. can anyone tell me how to or point me to a link that tells me how to move the Z axis from the classicladder.. trying to make a tool changer. only problem i have is that i need the Z axis to move down and close the collet and go back up.. just cannot get the axis to move.. any suggestions
[18:58:12] <minibnz> been working on this for 4 days striaght now... this is my 5th day i am almost ready to conceed defeat and make the tool pallet lift up, but that jsut seems like doubling up on a axis that i already have
[18:58:39] <cradek> you'll probably have to use remap of M6 and do at least the motion part in gcode. you can use gcode's auxiliary digital inputs/outputs for synchronizing the two
[18:59:06] <cradek> by the two, I mean the gcode and the ladder
[18:59:33] <minibnz> i was looking into remaping but the docs are not clear on how to do that. i shows me file contents but doesnt say where that file goes..
[18:59:57] <cradek> in addition to the docs, check out the remap sample configs
[19:00:02] <minibnz> it shows that i need a prolog and epilog section but i dont know where to put those files.
[19:00:57] <cradek> I use something like this scheme: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/remap/remap.html#_making_minimal_changes_to_the_built_in_codes_including_tt_m6_tt
[19:01:24] <cradek> I don't have prolog or epilog
[19:02:18] <minibnz> oh wow that seems like the golden nugget of info i was missing.. thank you so much...
[19:02:35] <minibnz> so my gcode goes into ngc file specified on that line..
[19:02:42] <cradek> heh I just clicked Remap and scrolled down a bit :-)
[19:02:57] <cradek> welcome!
[19:03:46] <minibnz> hehehe i just never saw that page.. thanks. i have been all over the net using a little snippet from here and there to get as far as i have..
[19:03:56] <cradek> hint: be very careful about units and other modal settings; use the M70/M72 to save and restore that stuff
[19:04:13] <cradek> to be precise: save, set exactly what you need including units, do your motion, restore
[19:05:38] <minibnz> ahh yeah i was wondering how i was going to do all that.. at one point i was writting a python component so saving all those would have been easy. so i need M70etc thanks again
[19:06:11] <cradek> bbl
[19:09:38] <minibnz> ok
[19:09:50] <minibnz> now i have to work out how to add the remap component.. :_
[19:09:51] <minibnz> :)
[19:15:04] <andypugh> I think I made the RS485 thingy I needed. I took this USB thing: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ulVE_PSk6Rg/VvnCqZR23zI/AAAAAAAAGag/8njjs20lzVsXkoSaHa-psao6ExzqBTYQgCCo/s1024-Ic42/IMG_2436.jpg
[19:15:32] <andypugh> And modified it to fit a motherboard USB port: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wAD0nKjdpzM/VvnC2-gOzNI/AAAAAAAAGak/gfM4C2_iFIEnrYmrCd3-n6srhAK7gfYWwCCo/s1024-Ic42/IMG_2437.jpg
[19:15:52] <minibnz> nice work there andy.
[19:16:17] <andypugh> Tomorrow I will plug it into the motherboard and see if it gets detected.
[19:16:38] <minibnz> hey i have a question for you.. i saw a wiki page with your name on it regarding a toolchanger component.. did you finish it? does it work?
[19:17:14] <andypugh> I propabably should have checked that before, really. I just realised that yesterdays test was using a VM and the driver used would be the Mac one, not the Linux one.
[19:17:25] <minibnz> andypugh now you have that header socket on there make sure you get it on the right way around :) or the magic smoke will come out.. also apply a lump of hotglue to help it survive..
[19:17:26] <andypugh> minibnz: Which toolchanger?
[19:17:54] <andypugh> (I put in a keying blank so it wont go on wrong)
[19:18:04] <minibnz> nice
[19:18:25] <minibnz> oh im not sure what it was called there was a component that i thought the author was you... let me see if i can find the link.
[19:18:54] <andypugh> This one? http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/man/man9/carousel.9.html
[19:19:16] <minibnz> yeah that one..
[19:19:43] <andypugh> If you look in the samples sim-axis-vismach-VMC-toolchange you can watch it in action on a simulted machine
[19:20:18] <andypugh> Or even on Youtube :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZwpjUs1xI
[19:20:28] <minibnz> ok for some reason my installation does not have that folder in the sim folder. i will see if i can find a copy.thanks.
[19:23:01] <minibnz> hey that video is almost exactly what i had in mind.. my unit was going to be a little different but i might just make it the same as what you have done..
[19:24:17] <andypugh> That video is of the sim config that you should be able to just run
[19:24:49] <minibnz> i gotta find the sim config first.. :)
[19:24:53] <minibnz> working on that now..
[19:25:07] <andypugh> Which version are you on?
[19:25:19] <minibnz> 2
[19:25:25] <minibnz> 2.5.4
[19:25:37] <andypugh> You need to upgrade.
[19:25:43] <minibnz> i pretty much have all of that done in a classic ladder. was trying to work out how to get the head to move up and down as i want
[19:26:26] <andypugh> I am pretty sure that you should be able to upgrade to 2.7 on your existing Linux version.
[19:26:36] <minibnz> well upgrading is a bit of a problem at the moment i dont have enough free space on the hdd.. i need to find a bigger compact flash card before i can upgrade, otherwise its a complete wipe and install
[19:27:25] <andypugh> A LinuxCNC-only updte shouldn’t need HDD space
[19:29:03] <minibnz> its all the dependancies i need to install/update that nearlly killed my box when i tried the other day.. free space went to zero and things got really slow
[19:29:13] <andypugh> Ah, OK
[19:30:18] <minibnz> this was setup intiially from the livecd/usb key for 10.04 and it only has a 4gb card in there at the moment. so i am thinking a 8gb card will be a good reason to upgrade to a fresh copy.. can get rid of all the crap i dont need once i know what i do need.
[19:30:38] <andypugh> Yeah.
[19:30:50] <minibnz> i might have even removed the sim directory at some point in the past trying to get a little more space.
[19:32:02] <minibnz> i thought i saw a 16gb card floating around here somewhere.. i migh have me a search today...
[19:32:56] <andypugh> Today is over for me now. Time to sleep.
[19:46:06] <witnit> these much good for anything but grinding? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROCKWELL-PRECISE-HIGH-SPEED-JIG-GRINDER-Super-55-/141943079565?hash=item210c77828d:g:W84AAOSwAuNW5YGo
[19:57:53] <robin_sz> could be ok with single flute cutters
[19:59:04] <Polymorphism> lol I got a reply back from xzero
[19:59:19] <Polymorphism> he basically said any machine will work for my needs
[19:59:32] <Polymorphism> sounds like he doesnt really need the sale, I think this convinces me to get raptor
[19:59:52] <Polymorphism> he commented also that this machine is superior accuracy
[19:59:56] <Polymorphism> to the other 6040
[20:01:29] <robin_sz> did you buy it yet?
[20:02:38] <os1r1s> minibnz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVRlXcPhifQ
[20:03:16] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, not yet
[20:03:22] <Polymorphism> waiting to hear back from someone
[20:03:26] <Polymorphism> on the forum
[20:04:04] * Not-Renny is painfully close to having all the parts he needs for a complete 3d printer
[20:04:04] <os1r1s> Polymorphism Where are you located?
[20:04:30] <Polymorphism> USA
[20:04:50] <os1r1s> Polymorphism What city?
[20:04:55] <Polymorphism> outside of boston
[20:04:56] <Polymorphism> ma
[20:05:12] <Polymorphism> Not-Renny, you're building a 3d printer?
[20:05:28] <Polymorphism> are you going to document the build
[20:05:34] <Not-Renny> Nah
[20:05:39] <Not-Renny> Well
[20:05:42] <Polymorphism> that's a shame.
[20:05:43] <os1r1s> Not-Renny Cool. It starts with one, but they multiply
[20:05:49] <Not-Renny> I have plenty of pictures
[20:05:52] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, the raptor looks less crap than the other crap
[20:06:13] <Not-Renny> I realized this halfway through designing one, os1r1s :(
[20:06:26] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, http://i.imgur.com/lMaUeKl.jpg
[20:06:29] <Polymorphism> thats the raptor
[20:06:32] <Polymorphism> you may not have seen that picture
[20:06:38] <Polymorphism> I uploaded it from their fb page to imgur
[20:06:51] <Polymorphism> maybe that helps show the quality
[20:07:04] <Polymorphism> or lack?
[20:07:12] <Polymorphism> looks solid to me
[20:07:21] <robin_sz> that one looks poor
[20:07:21] <os1r1s> Polymorphism Odd choice in steppers on that one
[20:07:31] <robin_sz> z axis is wrong
[20:07:35] <Polymorphism> my machine will be smaller
[20:07:42] <Polymorphism> and I add my own motors or use his kit
[20:07:44] <Polymorphism> his hit is...
[20:07:53] <Polymorphism> MX3660 and 3x 311oz motors
[20:07:56] <Polymorphism> fro USD $350
[20:07:57] <Polymorphism> sounds fair?
[20:07:58] <robin_sz> http://www.xzerocnc.com/raptor.htm
[20:08:03] <Polymorphism> that information is out of date
[20:08:05] <robin_sz> 311 what?
[20:08:07] <Polymorphism> except for the motors
[20:08:08] <Polymorphism> 311 oz
[20:08:19] <robin_sz> whats that?
[20:08:25] <Polymorphism> I dont know
[20:08:28] <Polymorphism> but it sounds decent
[20:08:34] <Polymorphism> probably the weight
[20:08:35] <Polymorphism> of the motor
[20:08:36] <Polymorphism> ?
[20:08:38] <Polymorphism> or its force
[20:08:39] <Polymorphism> I have no idea
[20:08:44] <Polymorphism> something about the motor
[20:09:05] <robin_sz> you, my friend, are a malreting mans dream
[20:09:09] <robin_sz> *marketing
[20:09:14] <os1r1s> Polymorphism I don't Polymorphism 311 is the torque
[20:09:38] <Polymorphism> lol
[20:09:39] <os1r1s> Polymorphism 311 is the torque
[20:09:41] <Polymorphism> in all seriousness though
[20:09:44] <Polymorphism> thats a good price
[20:09:44] <os1r1s> Typing too much
[20:09:44] <robin_sz> which, is irrelevant to anything
[20:09:58] <Polymorphism> for that controller and 3x motors
[20:10:01] <Polymorphism> and a 48v power supply
[20:10:04] <Polymorphism> $350
[20:10:10] <Polymorphism> I dont know if I can even beat that
[20:10:36] <Polymorphism> people talk about gecko but thats 350 just for the driver isnt it
[20:10:37] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure
[20:10:40] <Polymorphism> looked like it would cost more
[20:10:58] <robin_sz> geckos are about $130 per driver
[20:11:07] <os1r1s> robin_sz I think he was talking about the G540
[20:11:17] <robin_sz> oh thats a nice driver
[20:11:24] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:11:26] <os1r1s> Though I think its 299
[20:11:33] <robin_sz> yep, probably
[20:11:35] <Polymorphism> shttp://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive-step-motor-drives/g540.html
[20:11:36] <os1r1s> I have 2 of them and they work well
[20:11:53] <robin_sz> I;ve used a lot of geckos, great product and great support
[20:11:54] <Polymorphism> check this out
[20:12:02] <Polymorphism> you guys know this stuff better
[20:12:05] <Polymorphism> http://www.leadshine.com/productdetail.aspx?type=products&category=accessories&producttype=multiple-axis-stepper-drives&series=MX&model=MX3660
[20:12:08] <Polymorphism> thats the driver I would get
[20:12:19] <Polymorphism> if I get the motors and driver and psu from him, the $350 bundle
[20:12:26] <robin_sz> yes
[20:12:32] <Polymorphism> its nice?
[20:12:40] <robin_sz> its cheap
[20:12:48] <Polymorphism> I dont want to throw it away and buy new to cut like people say with the chinese stuff
[20:13:28] <Polymorphism> its 390
[20:13:31] <Polymorphism> 290*
[20:13:35] <robin_sz> you pretty much get what you pay for
[20:13:39] <Polymorphism> I dont see it on ebay
[20:13:53] <Polymorphism> he said they mostlyy sell direct to manufacturers or something
[20:14:25] <robin_sz> I paid $150 each for my last steppers, $130 each for geckos, and $250+ for a cnc card from Mesa
[20:14:33] <Polymorphism> I would need to wire the steppers to that and wire the psu and put it all into a box?
[20:14:41] <Polymorphism> wow, a lot more
[20:14:45] <robin_sz> and more on a PSU and an enclosure
[20:14:59] <robin_sz> and im very happy with it
[20:15:06] <Polymorphism> I'm only cutting 4mm alu max though
[20:15:09] <Polymorphism> will I be ok?
[20:15:13] <Polymorphism> I could upgrade later
[20:15:18] <Polymorphism> after the machine pays for itself
[20:15:19] <robin_sz> its irrelevant
[20:15:35] <robin_sz> get a machine that is stiff
[20:15:40] <Polymorphism> ok
[20:15:42] <Polymorphism> well the thing is
[20:15:45] <Polymorphism> he is selling just the frame
[20:15:47] <Polymorphism> and spindle mount
[20:15:47] <robin_sz> and the minimum Z clearance you can get away with
[20:15:49] <Polymorphism> and table
[20:15:54] <Polymorphism> and limit switches etc
[20:16:00] <Polymorphism> then I can add the motor kit + controller + psu
[20:16:01] <Polymorphism> its optional
[20:16:06] <Polymorphism> so if there is a better deal for not much more
[20:16:08] <Polymorphism> I might want to do that
[20:16:19] <Polymorphism> yeah he mentioned
[20:16:21] <Polymorphism> its 5.5" z
[20:16:30] <Polymorphism> he said I can do 7" z when I asked, and he will do it for me for 90 more
[20:16:33] <Polymorphism> but he said not to
[20:16:35] <robin_sz> clearance?
[20:16:39] <Polymorphism> it will compromise the machine
[20:16:43] <robin_sz> yes,
[20:16:45] <Polymorphism> z travel
[20:16:52] <Polymorphism> /clearance
[20:16:55] <Polymorphism> some combination of both perhaps
[20:16:58] <robin_sz> but hwats the clearance?
[20:17:02] <Polymorphism> 4.7"
[20:17:05] <Polymorphism> 5.5" travel
[20:17:11] <Polymorphism> 12.5"x30" work area
[20:17:11] <witnit> these are small but affordable routes to take
[20:17:17] <witnit> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CM-Servo-Motor-N57-072G-002X-with-Tamagawa-TS5643-Encoder-/272106270045?hash=item3f5acc2d5d:g:6RoAAOSwNSxVVnzV
[20:17:22] * Polymorphism browses
[20:17:23] <robin_sz> and whats the tallest thing you need to machine?
[20:17:28] <Polymorphism> 3.7" right now
[20:17:38] <robin_sz> ok, so 4.7" is not too bad
[20:17:42] <Polymorphism> but I could restart my whole idea also
[20:17:51] <Polymorphism> I could cut the entire enclosure from scratch probably
[20:17:51] <robin_sz> why 3.7?
[20:17:52] <Polymorphism> with this machine
[20:17:56] <Polymorphism> because my plan
[20:18:02] <Polymorphism> is to clamp down enclosures like these
[20:18:10] <Polymorphism> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Pk0AAOSwHgVW77ne/s-l300.jpg
[20:18:12] <Polymorphism> to end up with that
[20:18:17] <Polymorphism> the extruded aluminum
[20:18:22] <Polymorphism> the largest height I need is 3.7"
[20:18:37] <Polymorphism> but I'm realizing... I could probably make a nicer case from scratch
[20:18:39] <Polymorphism> with a machine like this
[20:18:50] <Polymorphism> with machine screws to put it together
[20:18:51] <Polymorphism> etc
[20:18:58] <robin_sz> we make our cases from scratch
[20:19:09] <Polymorphism> do you have any photos?
[20:19:16] <robin_sz> Ishowed you our site already
[20:19:19] <Polymorphism> oh right
[20:19:21] <Polymorphism> they look great
[20:19:34] <Polymorphism> what is the stock material?
[20:19:35] <robin_sz> we subcontract a lot out too
[20:19:43] <robin_sz> 5052 1.2mm sheet
[20:20:01] <Not-Renny> Dang it, because of you guys I want to make a granite/glass bed for a CNC mill.
[20:20:12] <robin_sz> we tried it in 8x4 format but it was no good really
[20:20:13] <Not-Renny> It's all your fault :P
[20:20:26] <robin_sz> we use 10x5 now
[20:20:36] <Polymorphism> it looks affordable , that stock
[20:20:56] <Polymorphism> Not-Renny, same. but it just wont work. maybe for a second machine later it sounds amazing
[20:21:01] <Polymorphism> work for me, I mean
[20:21:06] <Polymorphism> I need to move the machine from time to time
[20:21:19] <Polymorphism> or haver the ability to do so without heavy equipment, I should say
[20:21:38] <Polymorphism> robin_sz,
[20:21:52] <Polymorphism> with a quality machine, and endmill will I need to finish the cuts?
[20:21:53] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, what do you think the going rate is for a bare case, in 5052, with threaded inserts, all neatly folded ready for anodising, with a "brushed" finsih
[20:21:54] <Polymorphism> and deburr?
[20:22:00] <Polymorphism> or is it ready to assemble off the machine
[20:22:07] <robin_sz> 2U case ...
[20:22:19] <Polymorphism> let me think...
[20:22:28] <robin_sz> US dollars
[20:22:30] <Polymorphism> $30?
[20:22:42] <robin_sz> a little less, 22 to 25
[20:23:23] <robin_sz> so you'll need to look at specials and one-off work to make any money
[20:23:35] <robin_sz> as volume production is low margin
[20:23:44] <Polymorphism> I see what you mean
[20:23:51] <Polymorphism> the enclosures I'm producing will be for my own products
[20:23:57] <robin_sz> well, there you go
[20:24:03] <Polymorphism> small batch production of specialty control and automation devices
[20:24:07] <robin_sz> thats a good thing to do
[20:24:12] <robin_sz> USA?
[20:24:17] <Polymorphism> I want to protype small batch and one off produce in house though
[20:24:18] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:24:30] <robin_sz> FCC part 15?
[20:24:54] <Polymorphism> I haven't thought that far ahead yet I guess
[20:25:01] <robin_sz> ok
[20:25:11] <Polymorphism> if it's in al, its ok?
[20:25:18] <robin_sz> haha, I wish
[20:25:30] <Polymorphism> I need to get it certified or something?
[20:25:36] <Polymorphism> the whole device
[20:25:36] <robin_sz> depends
[20:25:56] <robin_sz> you need to able to show it is part 15 compliant, and decalre it as such
[20:26:05] <Polymorphism> I think that should be no problem with the raptor
[20:26:19] <robin_sz> not that
[20:26:21] <Polymorphism> I hope
[20:26:25] <robin_sz> your products
[20:26:33] <robin_sz> no one cares about your CNC is compliant
[20:26:53] <Polymorphism> lol
[20:26:59] <Polymorphism> I'll look into that soon
[20:27:19] <Polymorphism> looks important
[20:27:43] <Polymorphism> can't just start listing on ebay I guess
[20:27:43] <Polymorphism> ...or can I
[20:27:43] <Polymorphism> I need to find this out
[20:27:47] <Polymorphism> anything else major like that to worry about?
[20:27:49] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398
[20:28:46] <Polymorphism> ty
[20:28:48] <Polymorphism> this is just what I need
[20:29:12] <robin_sz> basically, you have to be able to show that any commercial product complies with the part 15 regs,
[20:29:30] <robin_sz> we basically have a "clean room" and can conduct tests ourselves
[20:29:54] <robin_sz> if its well below the limit, we record the results and self certify
[20:30:02] <robin_sz> if its not, we send it out
[20:30:36] <robin_sz> we have a couple of "golden" products, that we use as references etc
[20:31:08] <robin_sz> if you are very small, and design it well, you should be OK
[20:31:16] <robin_sz> unless a competetitor rats on you
[20:32:21] <Polymorphism> it also looks like its only $1000 for a test and if I know it will pass thats money well spent
[20:32:37] <robin_sz> $1000 wold be very cheap
[20:32:49] <robin_sz> has it got a processor?
[20:32:59] <Polymorphism> " How much does it cost to obtain authorization under the FCC rules?
[20:32:59] <Polymorphism> That depends on your device. Devices which require Verification or a Declaration of Conformity- which is to say, unintentional radiators- can be tested for about $1000. There is usually an additional fee of around $500 for a report which may or may not be needed."
[20:33:04] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:33:08] <Polymorphism> linux SOM
[20:33:26] <robin_sz> running at 30mhz +?
[20:33:33] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:33:43] <robin_sz> I think you need the other test then
[20:33:57] <robin_sz> there are two bits of part 15 ...
[20:34:06] <robin_sz> one for less than 30mhz
[20:34:07] <Polymorphism> its not an intentional transmitter I dont think...
[20:34:12] <robin_sz> one for more
[20:34:18] <robin_sz> exactly
[20:34:26] <robin_sz> but if it has that ...
[20:34:30] <robin_sz> it has to have the test
[20:34:40] <robin_sz> ask Peavey ;)
[20:34:53] <robin_sz> he had a range of pedals,
[20:34:56] <robin_sz> all OK
[20:34:59] <robin_sz> analogue only
[20:35:06] <robin_sz> no need for fcc sticker
[20:35:20] <Polymorphism> wait
[20:35:28] <Polymorphism> parts of the system communicate over 2.4ghz RF
[20:35:30] <Polymorphism> this is no problem, right?
[20:35:32] <Polymorphism> =\
[20:35:35] <robin_sz> oh ..
[20:35:36] <robin_sz> haha
[20:35:42] <Polymorphism> I don't like the sound of this
[20:35:45] <robin_sz> are they pre-certified modules?
[20:35:52] <Polymorphism> they will be now =)
[20:35:56] <Polymorphism> xD
[20:35:57] <Sync> that actually doesn't help you much
[20:36:03] <Polymorphism> ...
[20:36:03] <robin_sz> it can help
[20:36:30] <robin_sz> there are some allowances for using say, a pre-certified bluetooth module
[20:36:48] <Sync> it can, but iirc fcc does not care and you have to do all the relevant testing for your product
[20:36:56] <Sync> but not the qualification testing for the radiator
[20:37:01] <robin_sz> yes
[20:37:03] <robin_sz> that.
[20:37:11] <Polymorphism> "These modules (boards) are not FCC approved. They are designed to comply with FCC Part 15 Rules and Regulations. They are not in a finished product form. They are strictly intended for experimental purposes only. If you wish to use these modules in an actual product (a non-experimental capacity), the module must first be designed into the product then the whole product must be approved by the FCC."
[20:37:13] <Polymorphism> oh no.
[20:37:23] <Sync> rekt
[20:37:35] <robin_sz> is it an intentional radiator?
[20:37:43] <robin_sz> ie bluetooth or similar?
[20:38:01] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:38:06] <Polymorphism> I think it may be
[20:38:07] <robin_sz> then you cannot use part 15
[20:38:18] <Polymorphism> I dont have to worry about it you mean?
[20:38:22] <robin_sz> does it communicate wirelessley?
[20:38:24] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:38:29] <Polymorphism> up to 1000 meters
[20:38:32] <robin_sz> then you cannot use part 15
[20:38:33] <Polymorphism> perhaps more
[20:38:39] <robin_sz> you MUST have full certification
[20:38:47] <Polymorphism> this isnt good.
[20:38:52] <Sync> it is
[20:38:55] <Sync> just not for you
[20:39:12] <Sync> and theoretically your mill should have compliance testing as well
[20:39:26] <robin_sz> well, yeah, but no ones does
[20:39:27] <Sync> and ul certification as well
[20:39:47] <Sync> well, if you use them comercially, it can be a problem
[20:39:49] <robin_sz> well, UL is another issue
[20:39:51] <Sync> depending on your code
[20:40:26] <Polymorphism> "For intentional radiators, the Certification cost is more like $10,000-$12,000, unless an approved module is used."
[20:40:30] <Polymorphism> something about approved module there
[20:40:36] <robin_sz> yes
[20:40:51] <robin_sz> if the comms module itself was certified, it would be less
[20:40:55] <Polymorphism> my mill needs UL compliance?
[20:40:56] <Polymorphism> wtf?
[20:40:58] <robin_sz> but your module is not
[20:41:02] <Polymorphism> you're trolling me right now, surely?
[20:41:07] <Polymorphism> this keeps getting worse
[20:41:11] <robin_sz> so you would need full certification
[20:41:15] <Polymorphism> it's 10k USD
[20:41:17] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: Using an unlicensed device in a commercial environment can void your business insurance I believe
[20:41:22] <malcom2073> if something goes wrong
[20:41:29] <robin_sz> well, theoretically
[20:41:32] <Polymorphism> I can't use approved rf module?
[20:41:39] <robin_sz> you can
[20:41:46] <Polymorphism> I'll just do that then
[20:41:47] <Polymorphism> thats no problem
[20:41:52] <Polymorphism> the code is written that way
[20:41:56] <Polymorphism> I can change modules
[20:41:57] <robin_sz> which will make the testing easier
[20:42:05] <robin_sz> and cheaper
[20:42:13] <Polymorphism> excellent
[20:42:15] <robin_sz> but I dont think you cna use part 15
[20:42:16] <Polymorphism> that's what I'll do
[20:42:29] <robin_sz> you'll need to check with a test house
[20:42:50] <robin_sz> how many do you plan to sell?
[20:42:54] <Polymorphism> I'm going to research this more
[20:43:03] <Polymorphism> at first, just a handful at most
[20:43:09] <Polymorphism> in the future? I'd like to think many more
[20:43:19] <Polymorphism> as well as other products I will have to go through this process with, apparently.
[20:43:31] <robin_sz> if you said"it transmits 20 feet" I would say "just do it"
[20:43:50] <robin_sz> when you say "goes for 1000m +" I wuld say "worry"
[20:45:39] <robin_sz> use a reputable module, like a proven zigbee high bower module
[20:45:43] <robin_sz> *power
[20:45:53] <robin_sz> something proven, tested, certified
[20:46:04] <robin_sz> and you probably wont have any trouble
[20:46:05] <Polymorphism> that's what I will do, it seems like it will make this much easier
[20:47:10] <robin_sz> and read up on the FCC rules, im pretty sure you can't use part15 if it incorporates a transmitter
[20:47:25] <robin_sz> so you'd need a declaration I think
[20:47:32] <robin_sz> is that right Sync?
[20:48:04] <Polymorphism> because that makes it an intentional radiator?>
[20:48:11] <robin_sz> yes
[20:48:31] <Polymorphism> then I would need 10k in testing
[20:48:47] <robin_sz> yes, but thats less than 30K for certification testing
[20:48:59] <Polymorphism> where did the other 20k just come from!?
[20:49:15] <robin_sz> full certification testing, is about 30K for a simple product
[20:49:27] <robin_sz> declaration of conformity testing shoudl be about 10k
[20:49:41] <robin_sz> part 15 .. 10k and below
[20:49:49] <robin_sz> depending
[20:50:07] <Polymorphism> I see...
[20:50:12] <robin_sz> and if you chnage the PCB, or change a component
[20:50:13] <Polymorphism> I can make some adjustments and this will be ok
[20:50:17] <robin_sz> retest
[20:50:25] <Sync> I have no idea about fcc, but iirc yes robin_sz
[20:50:37] <Polymorphism> what???
[20:50:41] <Sync> of course
[20:50:44] <Polymorphism> to release a new version of a product costs 30k???
[20:50:48] <robin_sz> yes
[20:50:51] <Polymorphism> is that why some companies wait so long in between releases
[20:50:54] <robin_sz> yes
[20:50:59] <Polymorphism> wow.
[20:51:08] <robin_sz> if its full certification
[20:51:09] <Polymorphism> I need to make some changes to my plan now
[20:51:10] <Sync> you can #yolo it like most people
[20:51:25] <robin_sz> yep
[20:51:26] <Sync> but it is not the best idea if you have a radiator in your product
[20:51:30] <Polymorphism> you mean just skip all of that testing stuff
[20:51:32] <robin_sz> yep
[20:51:35] <Polymorphism> and then if I get caught, worst case
[20:51:38] <Polymorphism> I just pay the 10k
[20:51:41] <Sync> oh no
[20:51:42] <robin_sz> no
[20:51:42] <Polymorphism> and I'm good to go
[20:51:47] <Sync> the fcc will assrape you
[20:51:50] <Polymorphism> @_@
[20:51:55] <robin_sz> ass rape with a vengeance
[20:52:00] <Polymorphism> I'd better do this properly then
[20:52:03] <malcom2073> dry no less
[20:52:07] <Polymorphism> with the intentional radiator
[20:52:09] <robin_sz> no lube
[20:52:14] <Polymorphism> =\
[20:52:36] <Sync> the thing is, if nobody is actually complaining you are golden
[20:52:42] <robin_sz> yep
[20:52:54] <robin_sz> if you are small, no one cares
[20:52:57] <Sync> and if your product is borderline, the fcc will just say "eh, plz dont do that"
[20:53:05] <robin_sz> yep
[20:53:16] <Polymorphism> ok
[20:53:18] <Sync> but if you actually manage to cause issues
[20:53:19] <Sync> GG
[20:53:20] <robin_sz> but ffs PUT THE STICKR ON
[20:53:34] <robin_sz> the fine for no sticker is absolute and bad
[20:53:47] <Polymorphism> ok
[20:53:48] <Sync> I oftentimes just do some internal testing
[20:53:50] <robin_sz> if you decalre it part 15 and its borderline ... then meh
[20:54:22] <robin_sz> basically, if it is metal cased
[20:54:33] <robin_sz> and your CONDUCTED radiation is below limits
[20:54:40] <robin_sz> your airborne will be fine
[20:54:58] <robin_sz> we basically test our mains born
[20:55:12] <robin_sz> and if we are 15db below, we stop worrying
[20:55:25] <robin_sz> if we are 5db below, we get it tested outside
[20:55:54] <robin_sz> I have a decent (calibrated) analyzer, a good LISN and a relatively clean room
[20:56:34] <Polymorphism> I have a lot to think about... hmm.
[20:56:47] <robin_sz> welcome to manufacturing, have a nice day
[20:57:04] <robin_sz> but for 10 modules a month, stop worrying
[20:57:32] <robin_sz> Sync, I have a friend who has a small business sellign test gear for solar panels
[20:57:46] <robin_sz> Sync, he just got an nice order
[20:58:25] <robin_sz> from a "national body" that writes various standards for electrical safety, emissions, etc etc
[20:58:34] <robin_sz> hes crapping himself :)
[21:01:01] <Sync> heh
[21:01:19] <Sync> I thought the same way when I got my first .mil contract in
[21:01:53] <Sync> then realized it is the same shitshow just with more paperwork
[21:05:42] <Sync> which is sad tbh
[21:05:47] <zeeshan> why
[21:05:53] <zeeshan> whats sad is my engine
[21:05:56] <zeeshan> did you see pics sync
[21:06:00] <Sync> no
[21:06:07] <zeeshan> hold on to your seat
[21:06:10] <zeeshan> it might fall
[21:06:32] <zeeshan> http://imgur.com/a/NySkI
[21:06:38] <zeeshan> thats how you blow a motor REAL GOOD!
[21:07:03] <zeeshan> at least the bolts support theory of elasticity
[21:07:05] <Sync> oh great!
[21:07:11] <zeeshan> they sheared at 45 deg
[21:07:11] <zeeshan> :P
[21:07:16] <zeeshan> plane of max shear under uniaxial tension
[21:07:17] <zeeshan> :P
[21:07:48] <Polymorphism> wow
[21:07:53] <Polymorphism> destroyed
[21:08:13] <malcom2073> zeeshan: That's awesome
[21:08:16] <zeeshan> i repeat again
[21:08:18] <zeeshan> bone stock car
[21:08:28] <zeeshan> 50,000 km (which is like 35000 miles for you americans)
[21:08:34] <zeeshan> :)
[21:08:58] <zeeshan> i wish subaru had more paper work in their quality process
[21:09:03] <malcom2073> I appreciate the freedomunits
[21:09:08] <zeeshan> maybe this could be prevented
[21:09:09] <zeeshan> :{
[21:09:15] <malcom2073> Probably by not driving it like a douche
[21:09:25] <enleth> zeeshan: any ideas about the initial cause?
[21:09:41] <zeeshan> malcom2073: its supposed to be for spirited driving
[21:09:51] <zeeshan> but i didnt really drive it too spiritedly :P
[21:09:56] <malcom2073> zeeshan: I'd say your definition of spirited and theirs are at odds :)
[21:09:58] <Tom_itx> zee did it
[21:10:10] <zeeshan> enleth i think it was ringland failure, which caused piston to seize
[21:10:12] <Tom_itx> he was acting like chebby chase in that movie with the blonde girl...
[21:10:17] <zeeshan> which ripped the wrist pin out of the piston
[21:10:26] <zeeshan> and as the rod came up it took out the remaining piston
[21:10:36] <zeeshan> then all the shards got into the oil, went through the oil system and seized all the toher bearings
[21:10:41] <malcom2073> Top gear taught zeeshan that the handbrake is directly tied to a womans sex drive
[21:13:30] <enleth> zeeshan: how did it sound?
[21:13:39] <zeeshan> kaboom
[21:13:59] <zeeshan> actually
[21:14:00] <zeeshan> more like
[21:14:04] <zeeshan> crunch crunch yum yum kaboom
[21:14:15] <Tom_itx> then a blue cloud of cusswords was like the aftershock
[21:14:55] <Tom_itx> i've driven a vehicle with a rod out for a good ways once
[21:16:21] <Sync> zeeshan: was it the out of round piston that failed?
[21:16:46] <Tom_itx> it would be hard to tell at that point
[21:17:10] <Sync> he measured before install
[21:17:26] <Tom_itx> new ones
[21:17:47] <Tom_itx> not the failed one
[21:18:01] <zeeshan> what car tom
[21:18:14] <zeeshan> sync this isnt the new engine
[21:18:24] <Tom_itx> i thought you were talking about the subaru
[21:18:33] <zeeshan> i am
[21:18:37] <zeeshan> but what car were you talking aboutt
[21:18:47] <zeeshan> the one w/ a rod out
[21:18:53] <Sync> ah
[21:19:05] <zeeshan> Sync: i learned a lot about subaru engines the last couple weeks
[21:19:06] <Tom_itx> i was also talking about the subaru
[21:19:19] <zeeshan> asap you take off the torque plate off, the bores go out of round by .0015"
[21:19:19] <zeeshan> easily
[21:19:27] <zeeshan> w/ the torque plate on theyre within 0.0003"
[21:19:45] <zeeshan> which makes sense cause if you try to imagine a piece of jellow and you compressing it
[21:19:47] <zeeshan> it bulges out
[21:20:06] <zeeshan> but in the case of an engine block it doesnt bulge out evenly cause theres more material in one direction than the other
[21:20:19] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: ah
[21:20:23] <Sync> heatcycle it with the plate on, that would be interesting
[21:20:23] <zeeshan> F subaru!!
[21:20:38] <Sync> zeeshan: tell me what next car to buy
[21:20:41] <zeeshan> honestly man, i hate aluminum blocks
[21:20:53] <zeeshan> definitely not a subaru if you value your money
[21:21:19] <zeeshan> my next car is definitely something along the lines of a toyota 4runner
[21:21:51] <zeeshan> toyota calls themself the best manufacturer in the world
[21:21:52] <Sync> thinking about a stagea
[21:21:54] <zeeshan> which they defintely are
[21:22:05] <Sync> or a 135 bemar
[21:22:10] <zeeshan> but i really think they make the most reliable cars in the world too
[21:25:11] <Sync> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnvnZuXKKsE zeeshan
[21:25:20] <jdh> was that a stock subaru ?
[21:25:40] <zeeshan> haha sync
[21:25:40] <zeeshan> ROFL
[21:25:45] <zeeshan> jdh yes
[21:26:37] <Sync> http://imgur.com/a/6uO37 zeeshan
[21:27:12] <zeeshan> goddamn subarus..
[21:27:13] <zeeshan> garbage
[21:27:25] <jdh> I still might get one
[21:27:45] <jdh> if I sell my boat
[21:27:46] <zeeshan> only if i read nasioc.com before i bought one
[21:27:52] <zeeshan> i wouldnt be in so much misery
[21:29:04] <Sync> what do you think about the stagea? :D
[21:29:19] <zeeshan> never heard of it
[21:29:42] <Sync> http://bestcarmag.com/sites/default/files/9097653nissan-stagea-r34-c955205072014191841_5.jpg
[21:29:53] <Sync> wagon with a gtr driveline
[21:32:55] <zeeshan> ah interesitng
[21:33:35] <Sync> I suspect if anything happens to the body
[21:33:37] <Sync> I'm fucked
[21:34:10] <robin_sz> you'd like my borthers Mazda
[21:34:21] <robin_sz> RX7
[21:34:31] <robin_sz> but with a triple rotor engine
[21:34:45] <zeeshan> nothing to like about a rotary
[21:34:46] <zeeshan> :p
[21:34:57] <robin_sz> it dynos a little short of 700
[21:35:02] <zeeshan> for 5000 miles
[21:35:04] <zeeshan> hoorayyyyyyy
[21:35:12] <robin_sz> 5000 ... you wish
[21:35:28] <CaptHindsight> get a 91-94 or maybe to 97 Land Cruiser
[21:35:32] <robin_sz> I think hed be happy with half that ;)
[21:35:40] <zeeshan> hehe
[21:36:07] <robin_sz> his old double rotor one was about 500, and would blow off porches without much trouble
[21:36:17] <robin_sz> this triple rotor is nuts
[21:36:49] <CaptHindsight> for reliable
[21:37:46] <robin_sz> your scooby, that cylnder
[21:37:53] <robin_sz> I think you'll need to hone it
[21:38:02] <CaptHindsight> I once drove 2k miles on a trip without any oil in the front diff. It was caked with grease from the seals leaking. When I pilled it apart there was no sign of wear with 200K miles on it.
[21:38:27] <robin_sz> I would start with quite a coarse hone.
[21:39:02] <robin_sz> 91 -94 ...
[21:39:15] <robin_sz> can you still get the fuel for those?
[21:39:25] <robin_sz> do they need a special type of coal?
[21:39:32] <robin_sz> or just regualr steaming coal?
[21:39:48] <CaptHindsight> I put the bearing back in the boxed for 100-200k miles for now and just cleaned, aligned it with new seals.
[21:40:15] <CaptHindsight> just unleaded coal
[21:46:48] <CaptHindsight> I wish that somebody made a sedan or coup with the same reliability
[21:48:17] <CaptHindsight> bearings that last, seals that don't leak, suspension parts that don't bend and wear in 50K miles
[21:48:37] <bobo___> so do I. or even a truck
[21:49:20] <zeeshan> robin_sz: the cylinder completely blown
[21:49:23] <zeeshan> on the b ottom side :P
[21:49:45] <CaptHindsight> some cars they just don't make parts using decent alloys
[21:49:55] <zeeshan> i dont mind changing suspension after 50 k miles
[21:49:57] <zeeshan> but not an engine
[21:50:03] <zeeshan> i dont care about anything thats bolt on
[21:50:23] <zeeshan> my mitsubishi eclipse had 600,000 km on the factory motor
[21:50:30] <zeeshan> but i went thru 5 alternators thru that life
[21:50:31] <zeeshan> :P
[21:50:36] <zeeshan> 3 were junkyard ones
[21:50:46] <CaptHindsight> I paid $50 extra for NSK bearings for a Nissan that went bad in under 20K
[21:50:57] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: you gotta be careful!
[21:51:02] <zeeshan> theres soooooooo many knock offs
[21:51:06] <zeeshan> its crazy
[21:51:14] <robin_sz> zeeshan, it looks quite bad, I think it needs a hone, and the piston will need some balancing work as well, maybe even new rings
[21:51:15] <zeeshan> are you talking about the wheel bearings?
[21:51:21] <zeeshan> robin_sz: lol
[21:51:31] <CaptHindsight> yeah, I get all my Toyota parts from a dealer that knows them inside out...
[21:51:40] <CaptHindsight> yeah wheel bearings
[21:52:01] <CaptHindsight> I pressed them in and out so I know I didn't hurt them
[21:52:33] <zeeshan> for wheel bearings i really like SKF or FAG
[21:52:52] <CaptHindsight> I hate doing preemptive service and the have the new parts die
[21:53:03] <zeeshan> thats the worst man
[21:53:10] <zeeshan> doing shit twice.
[21:53:13] <CaptHindsight> oh sorry they were SKF
[21:53:45] <CaptHindsight> I wish the Nissan ECU's were more hacked...
[21:54:15] <CaptHindsight> they did a shit job and they throw codes for things that are fine
[21:54:55] <zeeshan> i havent seen nissan in the top 10 list for most reliable brand
[21:55:04] <CaptHindsight> or they program the idle air control valve stepper to take 30 seconds to open
[21:55:09] <zeeshan> i mostly see toyota, lexus (toyota!), buick, honda
[21:55:24] <zeeshan> is it a stepper?
[21:55:28] <CaptHindsight> I had one earlier Nissan that was great
[21:55:34] <CaptHindsight> yeah, stepper
[21:55:39] <zeeshan> i recall for the 240sx it was a servo
[21:55:43] <zeeshan> been a while
[21:56:03] <CaptHindsight> and the preemptive replacement died and killed the driver in the ECU
[21:56:19] <CaptHindsight> real turds in the Maximas
[21:56:19] <zeeshan> lol
[21:56:45] <CaptHindsight> the 4 cylinder Sentras were great
[21:57:55] <CaptHindsight> cheap, easy to fix, reliable
[21:58:14] <CaptHindsight> I'd rate the maxima 2 out of 10
[21:59:01] <robin_sz> the basic problem with cars is ...
[21:59:09] <robin_sz> double the required number of wheels
[21:59:14] <zeeshan> lol
[22:00:33] <CaptHindsight> unfortunately the drivers of cars around here don't see cycles
[22:00:58] <CaptHindsight> or they do after you get jammed under their bumper
[22:01:32] <CaptHindsight> blind as bats
[22:02:15] <CaptHindsight> are any of the new tiny cars reliable?
[22:03:14] <zeeshan> mazdas are crazy reliable
[22:03:14] <CaptHindsight> I used to get rear ended by old people when driving an Alfa Spyder
[22:03:16] <zeeshan> im suprised
[22:04:14] <CaptHindsight> how are the Fiat 500's?
[22:06:51] <CaptHindsight> The Focus RS and ST seems to have tons of hacks and aftermarket parts
[22:07:19] <robin_sz> no good for Americans though
[22:07:30] <CaptHindsight> why come?
[22:07:43] <CaptHindsight> why is that?
[22:07:51] <robin_sz> or do they do a XXXXXXL version for the US?
[22:08:06] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/
[22:08:24] <robin_sz> its probably the same as the European focus
[22:08:30] <robin_sz> scaled up x 1.5
[22:09:31] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKE2RtVCfw4 a video of the raptor cutting some pcb
[22:09:46] <Polymorphism> it looks ok? can only tell so much from a video
[22:09:59] <CaptHindsight> 104.3″ wheelbase
[22:10:39] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, ive seen that done, but it looks useless
[22:10:41] <CaptHindsight> Length, Overall 171.7 in Width, Max w/o mirrors 71.7 in
[22:11:04] <Polymorphism> far from useless for my work
[22:11:05] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, I haven used leade components since the last 10 years
[22:11:11] <CaptHindsight> looks like the same chassis as the EU versions
[22:11:26] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, how will americans get in it?
[22:11:46] <Polymorphism> SMD should be no problem robin_sz
[22:11:54] <Polymorphism> I hope
[22:11:56] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: bacon fat
[22:11:58] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, uh huh ...
[22:12:06] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, hint: vias.
[22:12:12] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: coat driver and door, slide in
[22:12:20] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, hint: pcbcart
[22:12:53] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, thats unsafe, greased in bacon fat, the passenger will probably mistake him for brunch
[22:14:15] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, I can't get anthing close to regualr PCB tracks on a mill, I *regualrly* run a track through the gap in an 0805 .. you cant mill that
[22:14:54] <Polymorphism> what???
[22:15:36] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: they scent it with warm beer so it's repulsive the the locals
[22:15:47] <robin_sz> that would do it
[22:15:50] <CaptHindsight> the /to
[22:16:11] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, you know the basic problem?
[22:16:23] <CaptHindsight> I have to bring a beer warmer or wait 30 minutes to drink beer here
[22:16:26] <Polymorphism> lots of videos of pcb on youtube on these desk mills
[22:16:31] <Polymorphism> routers, realluy
[22:16:44] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, in Europe, people understand that the Mc Donalds menu is a list, from which you select a meal
[22:17:00] <robin_sz> in the US, people think it is a list of what they are about to eat
[22:17:23] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, yep and for low density prototypes it can work
[22:17:27] <CaptHindsight> it's worse than that
[22:17:36] <CaptHindsight> many can't read the list
[22:17:42] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, but for real life pcbs, you would normally have plenty of vias
[22:17:56] <Polymorphism> ok
[22:17:57] <robin_sz> Polymorphism, and tracks run through or under other components
[22:18:03] <Polymorphism> I was mostly thinking for rapid prototyping
[22:18:15] <robin_sz> a track through the gap in a 0805 is normal
[22:18:17] <Polymorphism> and one off designs that dont need high densitry
[22:18:26] <robin_sz> for one offs sure
[22:18:45] <CaptHindsight> you can SLA and inkjet print multilayer PCB's but that is above your pay grade
[22:18:52] <robin_sz> but for an actual baord test that you might put into production?
[22:19:21] <robin_sz> I just send the gerbers to PCB cart and send dollars
[22:19:34] <robin_sz> or PCBtrain
[22:19:46] <robin_sz> or whichever Chinese pcb house I am favouring that day
[22:20:18] <robin_sz> one thing the Chinese do very well is PCBs
[22:20:36] <CaptHindsight> also Chinese food
[22:20:40] <Polymorphism> xD
[22:20:43] <robin_sz> ah yes
[22:20:46] <robin_sz> dammit
[22:20:50] <robin_sz> I need noodles
[22:21:48] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: where in the EU are you?
[22:23:49] <robin_sz> UK
[22:24:06] <robin_sz> or Ventura, California
[22:24:12] <robin_sz> depending on which week it is
[22:27:39] <CaptHindsight> if you think that Californians are large, you should see the midwest
[22:27:39] <bobo___> so,what side of the road are you driving on this week?
[22:28:12] <Polymorphism> http://hackaday.com/2012/11/29/through-hole-plating-and-milling-at-home/
[22:28:19] <CaptHindsight> 4am in the UK, 8pm in CA
[22:28:20] <Polymorphism> I only need 1 sided board
[22:28:54] <Polymorphism> and probably dont need that
[22:28:57] <Polymorphism> but its interesting
[22:29:31] <Polymorphism> well the video itself is drawn out and boring, I just meant the completed result
[22:30:30] <Polymorphism> the height map part I hadn't thought about
[22:48:12] <Polymorphism> http://www.wolfgangengineering.com/ww-650-spindle.html
[22:48:14] <Polymorphism> whats this all about
[22:50:04] <Polymorphism> nvm
[22:50:17] <Not-Renny> It's a spinny thing that doesn't get as hot as similar spinny things
[22:54:02] <Polymorphism> I can't run a 2.2kw spindle on 110?
[23:00:15] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-65MM-ER11-1-5KW-WATER-COOLED-MOTOR-SPINDLE-AND-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-/390374417362?hash=item5ae420e3d2:g:HbEAAOSw~gRVyI8z
[23:00:17] <Polymorphism> german bearings
[23:00:18] <Polymorphism> =D
[23:05:49] <Polymorphism> "4 bearing in"
[23:05:50] <Polymorphism> excellent
[23:11:34] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CORSb2NtV0Q'
[23:15:03] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nISbtalt7tk
[23:16:02] <minibnz> argh!! still unable to get the Z axis to move up and down.. if i thought there was very few examples of python components there is like one incomplete example of sequential programming.. argh.. all i need is the head to move up and down a set distance when i wants it..
[23:16:20] <minibnz> think i am going to go back to trying to work out how to get the remap stuff to work
[23:16:44] <os1r1s> minibnz You see my pm25 bid?
[23:16:56] <os1r1s> video
[23:17:45] <minibnz> nope
[23:18:29] <os1r1s> minibnz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVRlXcPhifQ
[23:18:59] <minibnz> nice
[23:19:22] <os1r1s> Its getting there ...
[23:19:25] <os1r1s> slowly