#linuxcnc | Logs for 2016-03-26

[00:40:29] <MaCon79> I have a paper tape reader that is, of course, on its last legs.
[00:42:00] <MaCon79> Which manual or document should I read, to determine if this might be a good replacement for my paper tape & Reader?
[00:44:04] <MaCon79> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/pdf/LinuxCNC_User_Manual_fr.pdf seems difficult to read... :-)
[00:44:47] <MaCon79> Is there a place to get the english version?
[00:45:46] <MaCon79> I tried entering en for the fr http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/pdf/LinuxCNC_User_Manual_en.pdf to no avail
[00:52:13] <MaCon79> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/ has the English version via browser html...
[00:53:05] <MaCon79> bye
[02:00:11] <yasnak> scotch scotch scotch
[02:00:15] <yasnak> i love scotch
[02:00:20] <yasnak> and whiskey
[02:00:44] <CaptHindsight> islay for the win!
[02:03:14] <yasnak> trying to find a cheap e3 or e5 2u (i really want) or 1u rackmount to use as a hypervisor. any ideas?
[02:03:47] <toastydeath> what's your budget?
[02:03:49] <yasnak> there has to be something cheap out there, i find the lenovo and hp boxes cheap but rackmounts ;/
[02:04:12] <yasnak> i mean, im looking for bang for buck. can have work pay for it but i'd be buying it first to play with
[02:05:17] <toastydeath> at work, my secret is used Dell R900s
[02:05:24] <yasnak> hmmm
[02:05:27] <yasnak> big fuckers lol
[02:05:28] <toastydeath> 16 cores, 128 gb ram
[02:05:38] <toastydeath> really nice for big lab setups
[02:05:40] <yasnak> are they loud?
[02:05:49] <toastydeath> yup.
[02:05:52] <yasnak> heh
[02:05:55] <toastydeath> during running they're not too bad
[02:05:59] <toastydeath> but on boot they go full tits
[02:05:59] <yasnak> yeah, trying to scale back on that
[02:06:08] <toastydeath> tbh i've never ever heard a quiet 1u
[02:06:11] <yasnak> we're all r420 and r720 now
[02:06:18] <yasnak> befoe our supermicros...heh
[02:06:23] <yasnak> so damn loud and annoying
[02:06:24] <toastydeath> when they do a fan test or go full tilt
[02:06:48] <Connor> I have 1U's that sound like jets taking off..
[02:06:57] <yasnak> remember the old 10k fans?
[02:07:04] <yasnak> i have a tip of my finger that does
[02:07:08] <toastydeath> hahaha
[02:07:16] <toastydeath> Will It Blend?
[02:07:18] <toastydeath> "yes"
[02:08:15] <toastydeath> but seriously, there's no such thing as an honestly quiet 1U that isn't water cooled
[02:08:15] <yasnak> oh well
[02:08:33] <yasnak> depends. our new 420's are freaking quiet
[02:08:51] <yasnak> *ok, quietER
[02:09:08] <toastydeath> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Proliant-C7000-16x-BL465c-G5-Blades-32-x-2-3GHz-Quad-Core-256GB-RAM-/191782975524?hash=item2ca727f824:g:JvAAAOSwX~dWl~dH
[02:09:27] <toastydeath> not much ram in those tho
[02:09:47] <toastydeath> 16 gb isn't that bad if you have a lot of systems i guess
[02:10:27] <CaptHindsight> Islay 4 the win!
[02:11:15] <Connor> You could do your on Private Virtual Cloud with that thing..
[02:11:28] <CaptHindsight> takein a break from all my gun cleanin
[02:12:17] <Connor> how many U spaces is that thing ?
[02:12:50] <toastydeath> they're usually like 7 or 8u
[02:13:39] <CaptHindsight> 16 x 2 x 2.3 GHz AMD Opteron 2356 Quad Core
[02:14:05] <toastydeath> though the downside is you usually want 2x 1u servers sitting outside the blade
[02:14:11] <toastydeath> so you can manage everything if the chassis dies
[02:14:31] <Connor> You also really want a SAN box to go with it..
[02:14:43] <toastydeath> depends on how you're doing storage
[02:14:46] <Connor> use local HD's for OS only.
[02:14:59] <toastydeath> you don't really need local hds
[02:15:05] <toastydeath> most blades have hardware hbas in them
[02:15:20] <toastydeath> and will boot to an iscsi target
[02:15:32] <toastydeath> or you can pxe boot them
[02:15:47] <Connor> That's where the $$$ is at.. the SAN/NAS solution..
[02:15:54] <toastydeath> eh
[02:15:55] <Connor> I have 1/2 Rack in a local data center..
[02:16:08] <toastydeath> it depends on whether or not the company trying to set shit up understands storage
[02:16:14] <toastydeath> if you have a storage guy it's fairly cheap
[02:16:14] <Connor> It's all 1U or 2U boxes with local storage..
[02:16:23] <toastydeath> if you need to buy dell, netapp, etc
[02:16:27] <toastydeath> it's obvs very expensive
[02:17:06] <toastydeath> and honestly not all that reliable because they charge so much
[02:17:14] <Connor> All my hardware is EOL. Probably another year or two of life left.. I'm hoping my wife's disability comes through before I have to shut everything down..
[02:17:17] <toastydeath> most people have a ton of single points of failure
[02:17:21] <toastydeath> on the san
[02:18:29] <toastydeath> there's two big equallogic sans at one of my clients
[02:18:40] <toastydeath> but they're all single point of failure
[02:18:49] <toastydeath> any one of the trays goes down and the whole thing shits the bed
[02:19:00] <toastydeath> and it was like 150k for 90 tb
[02:19:14] <toastydeath> whereas I can put together a few PB of storage for 100k
[02:19:26] <Connor> My current employer has moved everything over to AWS. Active / Active on east coast, with Passive on West Coast.
[02:19:47] <toastydeath> on a 5 year replacement cycle i beat amazon
[02:19:50] <toastydeath> in terms of cost
[02:20:01] <toastydeath> and most sans live 7-10 years
[02:20:18] <toastydeath> (amazon glacier storage, s3 is easy to beat)
[02:20:51] <toastydeath> (i am not a cloud fan even though that's what I do, i guess)
[02:21:27] <toastydeath> everyone is going to ceph
[02:21:39] <Ralith> some people are weirdly attached to SANs
[02:21:44] <Connor> I was SysAdmin for a local ISP, did everything from scratch. so, I hear you on not being a fan of the cloud.. but, VM's make things so easy.. and Amazon for this client was the right choice.
[02:21:58] <toastydeath> 1u server w/ a sas expander, 60-70 jbod tray
[02:22:09] <toastydeath> get about 1pb per tray at 30k per
[02:22:10] <Ralith> I work as a software developer building large-scale distributed databases
[02:22:19] <Ralith> and recently I've had people ask me why we don't just use SANs for that!
[02:22:23] <toastydeath> ....
[02:22:28] <toastydeath> wat, how
[02:22:34] <Ralith> (people in the field, that is)
[02:22:52] <Ralith> as the ultimate storage backend
[02:22:52] <toastydeath> because raw storage is TOTALLY a database, rite!
[02:23:05] <Ralith> I mean, it'd be a reasonable proposition in a small-scale system
[02:23:31] <Ralith> a database is an indexed datastore and a query engine and a datastore doesn't always have to be tightly integrated
[02:23:47] <Ralith> but once you get past terabytes it doesn't really scale
[02:23:54] <toastydeath> yeah
[02:23:54] <Connor> Yup.. I deployed a MariaDB cluster month ago.. that was fun...
[02:25:07] <toastydeath> i don't do any large scale db anything
[02:25:12] <toastydeath> just plain vm and file storage
[02:25:15] <Connor> my stuff is small scale.. most of the databases are 100's of MB, I think 1 or 2 might break 1GB.
[02:26:09] <toastydeath> Ralith, what db do you use
[02:26:23] <Ralith> I don't use them, I build them
[02:26:26] <toastydeath> i am really interested in the big data side of things but on the backend
[02:27:08] <toastydeath> but no current clients do anything like that
[02:27:12] <Ralith> just recently signed on with a new company who wants to build something from the ground up for aggregating car sensor data
[02:27:28] <Ralith> and perhaps other things in the future
[02:28:26] <Ralith> not much to talk about on that project yet since we're still hashing out formal requirements, but more broadly speaking, it's a really interesting world, as distributed systems tend to be
[02:30:09] <toastydeath> yeah
[02:30:57] <Ralith> I'm not sure I should go on about large-scale architecture very much because my specialty is a bit narrower than that, at least to date
[02:31:14] <Ralith> (I do query optimization)
[02:31:28] <toastydeath> i have been trying to build a demonstrator for a true SAS san
[02:31:29] <Ralith> but basically there's a lot of really deep and not exactly solved CS problems
[02:31:48] <toastydeath> 8 blades dividing up a rack of hard drives purely using sas
[02:32:02] <Connor> My company is begging stages of a ground up rewrite of our application.. I think they're making a huge mistake..
[02:32:11] <toastydeath> so as blades reboot/fail/whatever, the other blades pick up the disks
[02:32:12] <Ralith> rewrites often are
[02:32:20] <toastydeath> lol, rewrites are always a great sign
[02:32:21] <toastydeath> always
[02:32:34] <toastydeath> netscape had no issues with it at all, no sir
[02:32:39] <Ralith> heh
[02:32:40] <Connor> it's the ground up, from scratch that's the mistake.
[02:33:07] <Ralith> I work with complete systems, disks and all, as units of failure
[02:33:25] <Ralith> the ideal is that if anything at all goes wrong on a machine you just yank it and the rest of the system deals with it
[02:33:25] <Connor> App was written in 2004. Monolithic, non-api, non MVC. By Me.. why, because that stuff wasn't common back then.
[02:33:39] <toastydeath> Ralith, that's usually how it's done, yeah
[02:34:08] <toastydeath> i'm interested in localizing failure rather than having non-failed parts be dealt with by the overall system
[02:34:08] * Ralith nod
[02:34:33] <Ralith> are you using COTS software or something custom?
[02:34:43] <toastydeath> nope, standard parts and standard software
[02:34:46] <toastydeath> just using it in novel ways
[02:34:50] <Ralith> neat
[02:34:52] <Ralith> that's always really fun
[02:35:03] <toastydeath> people have forgotten that SAS drives are actually scsi
[02:35:08] <toastydeath> and that scsi is a network protocol
[02:35:14] <toastydeath> and has a shitload of failover and locking stuff in it
[02:35:32] <Ralith> and the hardware actually implements all that?
[02:35:49] <toastydeath> yup, it's part of the standard - if you're fully SAS compliant, you have to
[02:35:53] <Ralith> neat!
[02:35:55] <toastydeath> some of the ultra-cheap expanders/trays don't have it
[02:36:15] <toastydeath> and the linux sg3 toolset for scsi drives has all the commands
[02:36:24] <Ralith> I'm really excited for how storage architecture is going to change in the next few decades
[02:36:29] <toastydeath> so the plan that i'm trying to put together is to use ceph on the blades
[02:36:41] <toastydeath> and as the blades come up, each grabs a segment of the disks and locks them
[02:36:45] <Ralith> as latencies drop and seek overhead is eliminated a lot of the conventional architectures just don't make sense anymore
[02:37:11] <Ralith> even the memory/disk dichotomy!
[02:37:13] <toastydeath> when the heartbeat for a node fails, you can just have sg3 force a lock reset
[02:37:29] <toastydeath> and have another node take the disks - ceph sees the disks through udev and automatically republishes them
[02:37:38] <toastydeath> hm?
[02:37:48] <Ralith> that sounds very tidy
[02:38:26] <toastydeath> pure ramdisks seem like a good idea
[02:38:31] <toastydeath> esp in a distributed environment
[02:38:38] <Ralith> I mean, SSDs and RAM are converging in a lot of ways
[02:38:46] <toastydeath> i don't have the money for it right now but I want to buy an SGI box
[02:38:48] <Ralith> the next generation of disks speak PCIe more or less directly
[02:39:06] <Ralith> HP's tinkering with non-volatile RAM and a new OS to match
[02:39:07] <Ralith> etc
[02:39:20] <toastydeath> i am actually less impressed with the pcie drives
[02:39:23] <Ralith> (though I've heard rumours that their hardware didn't pan out)
[02:39:32] <Ralith> oh?
[02:39:33] <toastydeath> it's solving a problem that doesn't actually exist in the hardware
[02:39:47] <Ralith> this is certainly outside my expertise, so I'm interested to hear details
[02:40:00] <toastydeath> you can put several modern SSDs on even a SAS2 channel and not saturate it
[02:40:09] <toastydeath> SSDs deal very well with iops and random access
[02:40:10] <toastydeath> obvs
[02:40:19] <toastydeath> but they're not all that great in sustained read/write
[02:40:30] <toastydeath> and if you're using a good filesystem, you don't have a bunch of random small iops
[02:40:42] <Ralith> I don't use filesystems at all if I can help it :P
[02:41:00] <toastydeath> i am using "filesystem" loosely here
[02:41:09] <Ralith> well, right
[02:41:23] <Ralith> I'm not sure what you mean about sustained r/w though
[02:41:38] <Ralith> SSD bulk throughput absolutely thrashes at least conventional spinning drives
[02:41:47] <toastydeath> they're only twice 15k SAS drives
[02:41:59] <toastydeath> 400-500 MB/s versus 200-300
[02:42:07] <Ralith> only :P
[02:42:12] <Ralith> and 400-500 MB/s is just the cheap consumer stuff
[02:42:59] <toastydeath> if i have 16 sas lanes on a card, it is faster to buy more physical drives and spread them out more
[02:43:07] <Ralith> and you're punished much less for sub-optimal access patterns
[02:43:39] <toastydeath> that's purely a function of how you're doing disk storage, though
[02:43:55] <Ralith> your access patterns?
[02:44:02] <toastydeath> which is why zfs and btrfs do so well vs ext4/xfs/etc
[02:44:18] <toastydeath> yeah, how you actually store writes to the disk
[02:44:41] <Ralith> I'm more concerned about reads
[02:44:56] <Ralith> writes tend to be much more predictable in my kind of db application
[02:45:06] <toastydeath> different type of predictability
[02:45:20] <Ralith> more predictable than the reads, I mean
[02:45:38] <toastydeath> say you wrote a bunch of shit to a disk and it's all spread out, but you know what data is associated with what
[02:45:52] <toastydeath> so, in theory, you can effectively defragment
[02:46:07] <toastydeath> in a fs like zfs, all you do is copy the data back to the drive in place
[02:46:16] <TurBoss> Hi
[02:46:42] <toastydeath> even though it's not moving in inode, the location is moved on the disk to be sequential
[02:46:51] <toastydeath> (copy on write)
[02:47:18] <Ralith> in a db you don't necessarily have so much trouble with writes being scattered unpredictably
[02:47:41] <Ralith> you've got a smallish number of tables, which are typically append-only at the physical level
[02:48:09] <Ralith> compared to a general purpose FS, allocating space is pretty trivial
[02:48:15] <Ralith> (within a single node anyway)
[02:49:19] <toastydeath> with reads (and this is my db ignorance), is there no statistical correlation?
[02:49:26] <toastydeath> (on reads only)
[02:49:58] <Ralith> well, you do your best to architect things such that typical patterns are as structured as possible
[02:50:08] <Ralith> that's really one of the main challenges
[02:50:35] <toastydeath> that would be interesting to develop a historical markov chain
[02:50:45] <Ralith> but ultimately if you've got users who demand a query interface as flexible as SQL, you're going to have things like concurrent table scans going on all the time
[02:51:31] <Ralith> and you cache as best you can but there's only so much you can do for a given query within a given architecture
[02:51:41] <Ralith> really fast random access helps.
[02:51:54] <toastydeath> my thought would be to construct a markov chain of the next read
[02:52:00] <toastydeath> for prefetch
[02:52:10] <Ralith> that's an interesting idea
[02:52:10] <toastydeath> but i don't know anything about dbs so that's probably already done
[02:52:34] <toastydeath> it would eliminate caching because the most common entry points could be part of that
[02:52:52] <toastydeath> and you could structure the data on disk for fast sequential reads of the most common chain paths
[02:52:57] <TurBoss> I'm trying to add the psha.org.ru repo to my ubuntu 12.04 ,added the repo line to sources.list.d/psha.org.ru and run apt-get update but i get an error (KEYEXPIRED 1446622515)
[02:52:59] <Ralith> generally you try to decide what kind of queries are going to be fast up front, either when designing your database engine, or at bets when creating the table
[02:53:21] <toastydeath> why?
[02:53:29] <toastydeath> (legit question, again out of ignorance)
[02:53:36] <Ralith> because that gives very good results for many common usecases
[02:53:36] <toastydeath> (i don't know how db data is stored)
[02:53:47] <Ralith> and it's a lot easier than dynamically adapting to things
[02:54:04] <toastydeath> what are some different kinds of queries?
[02:54:16] <Ralith> have you worked with SQL?
[02:54:18] <toastydeath> yes
[02:54:32] <Ralith> then I'm not sure what you mean
[02:54:35] <toastydeath> but i've never considered what i'm doing from a efficiency standpoint
[02:54:53] <archivist> table scan=doing it wrong
[02:54:54] <toastydeath> i don't know if different kinds of select queries can be optimized vs other kinds of select queries
[02:54:55] <Ralith> mostly you've got scans, sorts, joins
[02:55:02] <toastydeath> ahhh okay
[02:55:12] <Ralith> you can optimize for just about anything
[02:55:18] <archivist> people doing scans should be sacked
[02:55:26] <Ralith> it gets harder when you optimize for multiple things at once
[02:55:29] <Connor> Ralith: Which SQL Engine?
[02:55:30] <toastydeath> how does the data get stored overall? is it per row, per cell/entry?
[02:55:45] <toastydeath> hash, array?
[02:55:47] <Ralith> Connor: last project I worked on we wrote our own
[02:56:07] <Ralith> toastydeath: there's a variety of approaches, depending on what kind of access patterns you expect, and what scale you're working at
[02:56:10] <Connor> Wow.. okay.. That's kinda different..
[02:56:22] <Ralith> Connor: not if you build database engines for a living :P
[02:56:44] <Connor> Guess not.. I use MSSQL and MySQL/MariaDB
[02:57:03] <Connor> Might use some ORM in this new revision..
[02:57:18] <Ralith> toastydeath: pure column-oriented databases are popular for smaller scale in-memory stuff because it makes it very computationally efficient to brute-force process
[02:57:38] <toastydeath> hm, if i stored everything as cells, then i could have a history of the access path
[02:57:40] <Ralith> (that's where each column of a given table is laid out more or less sequentially in memory, and row ID = position in the sequence)
[02:57:44] <toastydeath> and then structure it on disk based on that
[02:58:27] <toastydeath> and just rebuild the structure periodically based on the updated data
[02:58:29] <Connor> Looking for best approach to handling dynamic fields. EAV, JSON/XML or Schema modifications.. Tables will most likely be static number of fields + user defined fields..
[02:59:02] <Ralith> larger systems which hit disk and start to span multiple nodes tend to use row-oriented schemes
[02:59:19] <toastydeath> this wouldn't really be either
[02:59:29] <Connor> So, EAV
[02:59:29] <Ralith> the most modern high-performance systems use a kind of hybrid
[02:59:33] <toastydeath> i think i can mock it up
[02:59:35] <toastydeath> hm
[02:59:54] <Ralith> where you have chunks of columns stored together for efficient processing, but still able to be shipped around as a self contained block
[02:59:58] <Connor> I'm leaning static + JSON/XML
[03:00:09] <Ralith> (column oriented systems are also REALLY friendly to compression, which can be nice)
[03:00:33] <Ralith> toastydeath: I'm not sure what you mean by 'as cells'
[03:00:56] <toastydeath> for a specific field in a row, i mean
[03:01:27] <Ralith> Connor: general rule of thumb is your schema should be static; if users need to store unpredictable structured data of their own, stick it in a blob
[03:01:39] <Ralith> toastydeath: still not following
[03:01:59] <toastydeath> say i had a really simple table, let's ignore every normalization detail ever
[03:02:06] <toastydeath> first name, last name, age
[03:02:18] <Connor> That's where the JSON/XML comes in nice.. we can define the custom field names and data types etc etc..
[03:02:38] <Connor> id,firstname,lastname,custom_data(as json)
[03:02:48] <toastydeath> rather than storing it as a row or a column
[03:03:26] <toastydeath> track which specific fields get the most hit - the schema/table/row/field set
[03:03:27] <pink_vampire|2> morning
[03:04:01] <toastydeath> then do a histogram (sort of like CAM in a router) of what the next access is
[03:04:15] <XXCoder> night
[03:04:21] <pink_vampire> hi XXCoder
[03:04:25] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: how was that part you made yeserday heh
[03:04:39] <Ralith> any sort of analysis like that is going to be very difficult when you've got hundreds or thousands or more concurrent users executing different tasks
[03:04:46] <toastydeath> periodically, look at that histogram and build a markov chain of the most accessed cells
[03:04:58] <toastydeath> that's fine, because the disks don't know who is doing what
[03:05:08] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: I didn't saw it yet..
[03:05:16] <XXCoder> ok
[03:05:26] <pink_vampire> it' seat in the vise with jb-weld.
[03:05:26] <Ralith> I mean, I wouldn't expect there to be much of a pattern left once everything's serialized
[03:05:43] <Ralith> but I should let you finish, sorry
[03:05:53] <toastydeath> then build a hash of that chain
[03:06:05] <toastydeath> so you have your entry points and where the thing goes from there - based on the actual returned results
[03:06:32] <toastydeath> so it's a directed graph and you can build a hash from taht
[03:06:34] <toastydeath> *that
[03:06:45] <toastydeath> and break up/shard the hash based on convenient sizes of stripes on disk
[03:06:58] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: I took it out from the vise now
[03:07:11] <pink_vampire> look very nice and solid
[03:07:26] <toastydeath> so as you read, the most likely accesses will be semi-sequential and monotonic
[03:07:53] <toastydeath> at worst, you're not seeking the head across the disk, you're ignoring part of the platter's rotation to skip that child element of the hash
[03:08:14] <Ralith> it's an interesting notion, but if I'm understanding you correctly it depends heavily on actual access being very structured
[03:08:23] <toastydeath> nope?
[03:08:34] <Ralith> then I must be missing something
[03:08:45] <toastydeath> i mean you can tell super quickly on a structure like that if it's useless
[03:08:57] <pink_vampire> BRB
[03:09:05] <toastydeath> because the histogram table will be fairly homogenous
[03:09:19] <Ralith> right, and at tha tpoint what does all this buy you?
[03:10:04] <toastydeath> because it will show you the actual optimal structure of the data based on access, if that trend is there
[03:10:47] <toastydeath> there's no way for a human to know what user behavior is going to actually be before they start using it
[03:11:04] <toastydeath> so if there is a pattern, this will show that pattern immediately
[03:11:39] <toastydeath> machine learning, essentially
[03:11:54] <toastydeath> which statstical markov chains are
[03:12:09] <toastydeath> but less popular because fewer applications use it compared to like hyperplanes or knn
[03:12:41] <Ralith> sure; the trouble is that the combination of a large enough number of distinct patterns is generally indistinguishable from random noise
[03:13:12] <toastydeath> agreed, which is why I'm suggesting a directed graph approach rather than pure histograms
[03:13:32] <toastydeath> if it was just "this was accessed 100 times, this other thing 150 times" that's not useful
[03:13:58] <toastydeath> but if you know that "when this is accessed, then that is accessed, these other 30 things are the likely next accesses"
[03:14:20] <toastydeath> that is much more useful for structuring a heap (i kept saying hash, sorry)
[03:14:20] <pink_vampire> back :)
[03:15:32] <Ralith> that gives you a capacity to recognize more complex patterns, but I don't see how it addresses the fundemental problems of serialized patterns tending towards noise in the presence of large numbers of concurrent users
[03:16:30] <toastydeath> it only looks like noise if you are looking at it purely from a histogram perspective rather than connectedness
[03:17:08] <Ralith> if you're looking at the serialization of every concurrenct task, there is unlikely to be any connectedness to reconstruct
[03:17:09] <toastydeath> pretending there's a query for a second, with this data assembeld and heaped
[03:17:52] <toastydeath> you access some cell, and it has say a top 10/20/50/100 list of the next cell the algorithm wants to go to
[03:18:05] <Ralith> okay, THAT simply won't fly for storage reasons
[03:18:18] <toastydeath> there are ways to compress those maps
[03:18:21] <toastydeath> routers do it
[03:18:44] <Ralith> show me a router that stores petabytes of data before even getting into the metadata :P
[03:18:46] <toastydeath> these are also not accessed on the fly, keep in mind
[03:19:04] <toastydeath> how it works is you assemble the history as it goes, but don't update
[03:19:12] <toastydeath> and periodically reheap the information
[03:19:45] <toastydeath> i am describing (necessarily) two different aspects of it that do not happen at the same time
[03:20:23] <Ralith> the access patterns of a given query are 100% known in advance; I think it's easier and more useful to just analyze the types of queries you're seeing directly
[03:20:24] <toastydeath> so there's gonna have to be some liberties taken with the amount of storage required for this example, because in reality these types of data structures don't exist as a single entity
[03:20:33] <toastydeath> that's fair
[03:21:16] <Deejay> moin
[03:21:32] <Ralith> dynamic adaptation of data layout is an interesting concept, though, and I don't know that it's been studied much
[03:21:42] <Ralith> mostly people leave that to their DBAs in practice
[03:22:25] <toastydeath> why i am looking at it this way is because i expect some data to be queried more often in a particular way
[03:22:30] <toastydeath> and other data to be used differently
[03:23:05] <Ralith> it's definitely a good idea to build the best tools you can to record and analyze that sort of thing
[03:23:19] <Ralith> as you suggest, people hardly ever guess correctly
[03:25:20] <toastydeath> i like using weird math tools in unusual places
[03:25:43] <toastydeath> i made a little python simulator once to use control theory to launch/kill virtual machines, simulating AWS
[03:26:01] <toastydeath> to keep cluster load constant but predictive
[03:26:20] <Ralith> it is always really fun when some obscure bit of math turns out to be super useful out of nowhere
[03:26:32] <toastydeath> didn't use any history though, it was purely standard PID loop stuff
[03:26:42] <toastydeath> but it did really well, enough for amazon to take interest
[03:26:47] <toastydeath> but my company wouldn't let us work together
[03:26:50] <Ralith> aw
[03:27:06] <toastydeath> it also was agnostic of cluster size
[03:27:10] <Ralith> not interested enough to buy you out, eh
[03:27:25] <toastydeath> it could take a 10 node system up to a few million and not really care
[03:27:36] <toastydeath> at least in the simulator
[03:27:52] <Ralith> I'm a huge fan of the research that's underway right now in founding programming languages in intuitionistic logic
[03:28:00] <toastydeath> hm?
[03:28:06] <toastydeath> well there was some contract signed
[03:28:09] <toastydeath> that prevented that sort of poaching
[03:28:27] <toastydeath> they'd definitely have sued the shit out of me had i jumped ship, and from what i understand amazon is a shit place to work
[03:28:30] <Ralith> didn't google/apple/microsoft lose a class action for doing that sort of thing
[03:28:32] <toastydeath> but logic?
[03:28:36] <toastydeath> not sure
[03:28:44] <toastydeath> this was between my company and i
[03:28:52] <toastydeath> part of the employment agreement stuff as a contractor
[03:28:57] <Ralith> ah
[03:29:02] <Ralith> noncompetes are rarely enforcible!
[03:29:15] <Ralith> but it can be a huge can of worms
[03:29:20] <toastydeath> that was my thought, but it was also the IP developed on their time and systems
[03:29:37] <Ralith> that's trickier
[03:29:55] <Ralith> I'm careful to keep a clean boundary between my personal projects and what I do at work
[03:30:00] <Ralith> for exactly that reason
[03:30:24] <XXCoder> its risk if you made something that really hit off and make you millions
[03:30:32] <XXCoder> they WILL claim you did work at their clock
[03:30:53] <XXCoder> reardless how careful you keep it seperate
[03:30:54] <Ralith> anyway, intuitionistic logic!
[03:31:23] <toastydeath> YES, pls continue
[03:31:34] <Ralith> toastydeath: so, intuitionistic logic is, broadly speaking, like classical logic except without the law of exluded middle
[03:31:37] <Ralith> excluded*
[03:31:56] <Ralith> i.e. the axiom that (not P) or P
[03:32:00] <Ralith> is removed
[03:32:20] <Ralith> this has some really interesting effects
[03:33:15] <Ralith> in particular, the curry-howard isomorphism shows that any proof of a proposition in intuitionistic logic can be transformed into a program to compute an example that demonstrates a proposition's truth
[03:33:19] <Ralith> (called a witness)
[03:33:42] <toastydeath> hm!
[03:34:05] <Ralith> so, say, an intuitionistic proof that there exists a prime number between some constants X and Y can be easily transformed into a program that computes such a prime number
[03:34:18] <Ralith> and such a program can in turn easily be transformed into such a proof
[03:35:22] <toastydeath> provided you can find the proof without using A3
[03:35:31] <Ralith> what?
[03:35:34] <toastydeath> or whatever number that axiom is, i forget sorry
[03:35:41] <Ralith> the LEM
[03:35:45] <toastydeath> yeah
[03:35:50] <Ralith> an intuitionistic proof by definition does not use the LEM
[03:36:00] <Ralith> a program which computes a witness by definition does not require it
[03:36:22] <Ralith> the LEM is important because it allows you to convert a proof of not (not P) into a proof of P
[03:36:26] <toastydeath> right, but my immediate suspicion is that the LEM is a bit like AC - it's going to be difficult to find proofs for many things without it
[03:36:41] <toastydeath> or worse, many theorems that would then be independent of that logic
[03:36:58] <Ralith> ah, but the LEM really isn't all that important at all!
[03:37:05] <toastydeath> hot!
[03:37:09] <Ralith> this can be shown easily:
[03:37:19] <Ralith> we have many programs that compute useful things
[03:37:35] <Ralith> per the curry-howard isomorphism, these programs are useful proofs
[03:37:46] <toastydeath> oh, sure
[03:37:58] <toastydeath> i'm not saying it isn't super useful for that to be true
[03:38:04] <Ralith> okay that's a bit abstract
[03:38:09] <toastydeath> i'm just drawing the parallel to ZFC + AC
[03:38:23] <toastydeath> you go with just ZFC and you still wind up with most of number theory, for example
[03:38:27] <toastydeath> but you do not get real analysis
[03:38:40] <toastydeath> since dedekind cuts rely on AC
[03:38:45] <toastydeath> and are thus independent of ZFC
[03:38:56] <Ralith> right, it does close off some avenues, but not all that many
[03:39:07] <Ralith> and if it comes down to it you can embed classical logics in intuitionistic logics
[03:39:09] <toastydeath> i am curious how many theorems become undecidable
[03:39:13] <Ralith> it's just kind of awkward and nonconstructive
[03:39:15] <toastydeath> hahah
[03:39:32] <Ralith> carrying around proofs of not (not P) all the time and so forth
[03:39:48] <Ralith> anyway this is a digression
[03:39:48] <toastydeath> i once got points taken off on a topology exam because my crazy russian professor decided, in her thick russian accent, "Zee is ugly."
[03:39:52] <Ralith> hah
[03:40:07] <toastydeath> sry continue
[03:40:23] <pink_vampire> do you want to see the next part?
[03:40:46] <Ralith> so Martin-Löf's original work on intuitionistic type theory began establishing this type of logic as a foundational theory of mathematics, much like ZFC
[03:40:47] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/7ptq1jm.png
[03:41:14] <XXCoder> ohh so yo0ure making wood handle
[03:41:24] <Ralith> that happened in the 70s or so and people have been enthusiastically building on it, currently culminating in homotopy type theory
[03:41:31] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: correct
[03:41:51] <Ralith> but simultaneous to that, people have been physically realizing the curry-howard isomorphism
[03:41:59] <Ralith> and toying with blurring the line between program and proof
[03:42:30] <pink_vampire> i'm the only one that make parts here?
[03:42:33] <Ralith> we have systems like Epigram, Agda, and Coq, which, depending on your perspective, are either incredibly rich functional programming languages or automated proof assistants
[03:43:07] <toastydeath> (...i just got a 4 am phone call, but i am reading intently)
[03:43:13] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: it does seem so sometimes LOL
[03:43:27] <toastydeath> (i am very interested in this but have almost no background)
[03:43:29] <pink_vampire> yeah..
[03:43:48] <Ralith> this direction of research--the use of type theory as a practical programming language--is incredibly exciting because it equips the programmer to engage in machine-validated formal reasoning about the behavior of his software
[03:44:00] <Ralith> often with very little effort
[03:44:22] <pink_vampire> toastydeath: do you have a cnc machine?
[03:45:24] <Ralith> trivial examples include things like defining an array-like data structure whose indexing operator's type signature precludes it from being applied to an index which would result in an out-of-bounds access
[03:45:36] <Ralith> at compile time, without ever actually needing to store the length of an array anywhere
[03:46:36] <Ralith> we can define AST representations which are actually incapable of representing a type error
[03:46:50] <Ralith> by definition, an ill-formed program is unrepresentable
[03:46:56] <Ralith> by construction, even
[03:47:47] <Ralith> you can write performance-sensitive algorithms and have the compiler guarantee that your asymptotes are what you think they are
[03:47:57] <Ralith> you can statically reason about how many FLOPS you're consuming
[03:48:18] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: when it was the last time that you did something with your machine?
[03:48:22] <Ralith> any proposition you can constructively reason about, you can encode in your program and have machine-checked
[03:48:36] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: months ago. cant run in living room (we share it)
[03:48:49] <Ralith> it promises a new era of software engineering and reliability
[03:48:54] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: once weather warms up garage will be cleaned up so I can run it then
[03:49:14] <Ralith> which is a good thing, because frankly, the current state of software reliability is a complete travesty, especially compared to any real engineering discipline
[03:49:36] <toastydeath> (still on phone but reading)
[03:49:50] <XXCoder> Ralith: its very hard to write reliable and secure software
[03:49:51] <pink_vampire> lol
[03:50:08] <Ralith> XXCoder: indeed; wouldn't it be nice if the computer could told you when and where and why you'd gotten it wrong, before you shipped it?
[03:50:24] <XXCoder> I keep forgetting to bring my dial indictor home so I can install "spindle" on my machine and true it.
[03:50:40] <XXCoder> indeed ral
[03:51:08] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: why do you need dial for that????
[03:51:36] <Ralith> and that's just what this research area promises to provide, and indeed to some extent already has provided
[03:51:41] <XXCoder> so tool will be nicely stright down to table
[03:51:44] <XXCoder> not at angke
[03:52:18] <pink_vampire> small square
[03:52:28] <pink_vampire> level
[03:52:29] <Ralith> for exmaple, there's already a C compiler written in Coq which is guaranteed not to change the behavior of your program in the process of converting it to machine code
[03:52:56] <Ralith> (and yes, the fact that other compilers only sort of hopefully don't do that should worry you)
[03:53:17] <XXCoder> yeah i recall some fun aspects
[03:53:44] <Ralith> in fairness, 99.99% of the time someone thinks they've found a compiler bug they're wrong
[03:53:46] <toastydeath> back briefly
[03:54:05] <toastydeath> Ralith, that's goddamn awesome
[03:54:15] <Ralith> but 99.99% of the time isn't acceptable for many real-world software-controlled systems
[03:54:21] <pink_vampire> Ralith: that is the topic that you are talking about?
[03:54:32] <Ralith> medical, aerospace, military, civil infrastructure, etc
[03:54:37] <pink_vampire> what*
[03:54:54] <Ralith> pink_vampire: broadly speaking, the application of math in unexpected but useful ways
[03:55:05] <toastydeath> (i will be gone again soon because apparently someone cracked their skull open at the bar and the girl who had to deal with it is calling me)
[03:55:10] <XXCoder> in relation to computer science
[03:55:12] <Ralith> oh geez
[03:55:16] <XXCoder> ow
[03:55:17] <toastydeath> (like, can-see-brain level of cracked)
[03:55:24] <pink_vampire> Ralith: ok...
[03:55:30] <toastydeath> pink_vampire, i do not have a cnc myself but I was a machinist
[03:55:39] <toastydeath> doing high precision shit
[03:55:44] <Ralith> pink_vampire: apologies for flooding the channel >_>
[03:55:58] <toastydeath> Ralith, are there optimizations for that compiler?
[03:55:58] <pink_vampire> Ralith: it's fine :)
[03:56:01] * Ralith gets a bit passionate about this kind of thing
[03:56:21] <Ralith> toastydeath: it does optimize, but admittedly it does a pretty poor job of it compared to the state of the art
[03:56:27] <XXCoder> I liked CS till I graduated
[03:56:31] <XXCoder> and nobody wanted me
[03:56:31] <toastydeath> well sure, but that's still fucking awesome
[03:56:32] <XXCoder> whatever.
[03:56:34] <Ralith> http://compcert.inria.fr/ for details on that particular project
[03:56:50] <toastydeath> i don't think anyone can expect a brand new compiler to be amazing out of the gate on optimization
[03:56:53] <Ralith> XXCoder: really? the hiring market's on fire in major US cities
[03:57:00] <toastydeath> esp with those goals/methodology
[03:57:26] <Ralith> to be clear, proving things about your code isn't always easy, even with these tools
[03:57:36] <XXCoder> Ralith: while I did well in college I sucked on getting hired and interviews
[03:57:42] <XXCoder> and well its been years since
[03:57:47] <XXCoder> I graduated in 2010
[03:58:00] <Ralith> so if you set out to write proven-correct code you can find yourself going relatively slowly
[03:58:04] <XXCoder> and so many want web dev, I suck that so bad
[03:58:04] <toastydeath> pink_vampire, i used mostly fanuc controls and a pretty wide range of iron
[03:58:16] <Ralith> still, these tools make it vastly easier than it otherwise would be
[03:58:22] <toastydeath> including some custom iron for high precision shit, we made a lot of parts for the semiconductor industry
[03:58:35] <toastydeath> things for wafer inspection and fabrication
[03:58:38] <Ralith> and if you're not expressly seeking to prove every single thing you do correct, they can still *very* easily provide far greater safety and correctness guarantees than are conventionally available
[03:58:56] <Ralith> (like that array indexing example)
[03:59:10] <toastydeath> Ralith, this is interesting to me because I have been concerned about the safety of some software projects I don't undertake because of that kind of error
[03:59:20] <pink_vampire> toastydeath: I'm with mach3.. I want to move to linux cnc about a year.. but it's too complicated.
[03:59:23] <toastydeath> was looking into functional programming/etc
[03:59:34] <toastydeath> (phone again)
[03:59:52] <Ralith> this is the direction the more hardcore sort of functional programming is going, long term
[04:00:32] <Ralith> in addition to the new languages popping up, even the major Haskell compiler is growing a lot of these features in the next major release
[04:01:02] <XXCoder> Ralith: heh I wonder which would be worse, P=NP or P!=NP
[04:01:17] <Ralith> there's been interest in applying the tech to control systems for the ITER fusion project
[04:01:29] <XXCoder> P=NP would finally give us fast solutions to NP hard problems
[04:01:41] <XXCoder> but it also means excryption as we know it is dead
[04:02:09] <XXCoder> while N!=NP means some problems will always be computually hard.
[04:02:20] <Ralith> toastydeath: if you want to play with this tech, a popular starting point is https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html
[04:03:00] <Ralith> that introduces you to doing software-relevant proof work in Coq
[04:03:09] <Ralith> should help give a sense for how powerful intuitionistic logic is
[04:03:41] <Ralith> it's still a bit distant from writing actual software systems, but there's no really mature toolset for that yet anyway
[04:03:51] <Ralith> so you might as well start with a mature toolset for something closely related
[04:06:11] <Ralith> one of my biggest dreams is to one day be able to dedicate myself to helping create dedicated, practical tools for doing software engineering with this tech
[04:06:43] <XXCoder> just dont make skynet
[04:07:01] <Ralith> everything we can do to make it easier to create truly reliable software has the potential to do immense social good in the long run
[04:07:41] <Ralith> XXCoder: funnily enough, AI safety research could stand to benefit
[04:08:05] <XXCoder> did you read about microsoft one? laughed my ass off
[04:08:14] <Ralith> not sure what they were thinking there
[04:08:32] <XXCoder> yeah dunno. or maybe that IS default AI state LOL
[04:14:11] <toastydeath> no joke
[04:14:15] <toastydeath> that was an amazing ai
[04:14:19] <toastydeath> #taylivesmatter
[04:14:44] <XXCoder> :P
[04:15:37] <toastydeath> Ralith, I'd like to build a hydraulic or pneumatic cam system for an engine and I really don't want to be using something that's highly likely to have massive errors in it
[04:15:56] <toastydeath> similarly, hydraulic suspension
[04:17:05] <Ralith> writing that directly in a programming language like the ones I've described will be difficult, since they're mostly still more theorem prover than software development toolkit
[04:17:19] <Ralith> (though that didn't stop the compcert guys, or others like them)
[04:17:31] <Ralith> however, there's one clever way to work around that
[04:18:11] <Ralith> I mentioned earlier that you can define AST representations that are well-formed by construction
[04:19:06] <Ralith> leverage that: create a domain-specific language for the problem you want to solve, defined such that it is impossible to express undesired behavior in it, and then write a formally-verifiable compiler from that DSL to C
[04:19:52] <Ralith> then all you have to do is write some extremely simple primitives in C which you can verify manually, and all the rest is guaranteed to be correct
[04:20:11] <Ralith> and then you can feed the C to a compiler for your microcontroller or whatever
[04:22:40] <Ralith> the Software Foundations book should provide you with adequate background to attempt something like that
[04:22:59] <toastydeath> (more phone)
[04:23:12] <Ralith> you still have to take your C compiler, microcontroller architecture, physical wiring etc. on faith of course, but it's a big improvment
[04:24:06] <Ralith> and even if you don't actually use any of these fancy tools, their study can teach a lot about robustness in general
[04:26:52] <toastydeath> i'm definitely going to check into it
[04:27:01] <toastydeath> b/c i am more interested in minimizing my own errors
[04:27:26] <toastydeath> haskell was going to be my go-to but i can't away from python because i'm not really a programmer in the modern sense
[04:27:36] <toastydeath> and it's so easy to mock things up
[04:27:58] <Ralith> Haskell is amazing and is my current favorite compromise between these advanced tools and actually writing real software
[04:28:12] <Ralith> I definitely recommend spending the time to pick it up properly sooner or later
[04:28:46] <Ralith> it's very mature, has tons of useful and well-thought-out libraries, and lets you apply weaker forms of some of the techniques Software Foundations teaches
[04:29:04] <Ralith> (in the next GHC release, you won't even have to make that many sacrifices)
[04:29:52] <toastydeath> i need to see what support there is for microcontrollers and haskell
[04:29:55] <Ralith> you'll probably find it very easy to pick up if you make it through Software Foundations; there's a lot of common history in their approaches
[04:30:08] <toastydeath> cool
[04:30:24] <Ralith> (at least the basics, people get fiendishly clever with some of the abstractions)
[04:30:53] <Ralith> (the library named "lens" manages to be both frighteningly esoteric and the coolest thing since sliced bread for real-world code)
[04:31:38] <Ralith> might not want to get your hopes up too much about directly running Haskell on lightweight microcontrollers
[04:32:00] <toastydeath> definitely not, but there seems to be some amount of work on it
[04:32:11] <Ralith> if you work something out I'd be interested to hear about it!
[04:32:12] <toastydeath> or has been in the past
[04:32:51] <Ralith> haven't ever looked hard myself, I've just seen that the best support is mostly for writing servers
[04:33:02] <Ralith> and sometimes applications
[05:44:28] <pink_vampire> so quite here..
[05:53:41] <pink_vampire> live http://ustre.am/1qGHt
[06:06:26] <SpeedEvil> Arm about to grab the ISS resupply craft
[06:12:21] <pink_vampire> it's handle for setup mallet.
[06:17:51] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: ^
[06:40:27] <pink_vampire> live again http://ustre.am/1qGHt
[06:40:37] <pink_vampire> look at the setup.
[06:46:02] <Tom_itx> not very steady
[07:03:09] <pink_vampire> Tom_itx: I know.. do you have better idea?
[07:03:27] <Deejay> nice
[07:04:06] <pink_vampire> I want to see it done.
[07:06:04] <pink_vampire> almost done!
[07:06:36] <Deejay> i guess you will be the first one who will see it ;)
[07:07:21] <pink_vampire> hehe
[07:07:22] <Deejay> and holding it in your hand... .oO(thors hammer)
[07:07:35] <pink_vampire> I need to sand it down.
[07:07:58] <Deejay> yeah, make it smooth for a nice feeling in the hand
[07:08:15] <Deejay> will it get some kind of finish?
[07:08:25] <Deejay> paint? oil?
[07:08:29] <pink_vampire> and I need to coat it with something
[07:08:32] <Deejay> ah
[07:08:34] <pink_vampire> I don't know.
[07:08:37] <Deejay> :)
[07:08:38] <pink_vampire> any idea?
[07:08:52] <Deejay> not really
[07:09:32] <pink_vampire> I think clear nail polish
[07:10:00] <Deejay> hehe
[07:10:04] <Deejay> pink nail color
[07:10:54] <pink_vampire> nooo
[07:11:18] <pink_vampire> I don't know about stuff for wood.
[07:13:36] <pink_vampire> done
[07:19:37] <Valen> wipe on poly is good for most timber stuff
[07:19:50] <pink_vampire> poly??
[07:19:51] <Valen> wave your widget in front of the camera
[07:20:25] <Valen> http://www.feastwatson.com.au/consumer/products/interior/product-details/1512
[07:20:31] <Valen> yep you want that
[07:21:08] <Valen> its what these are coated with http://imgur.com/a/sxZfd
[07:21:15] <Valen> or for a hand tool you can oil it
[07:21:27] <Valen> linseed oil is what I use, its kind of a paint sorta kinda though
[07:21:51] <Valen> also be very careful with linseed oil, if you crumple a rag with it into a ball it can catch fire some time later
[07:22:04] <Valen> (which will really spoil your day lol)
[07:22:43] <pink_vampire> i think for a modification of 5$ hammer
[07:23:13] <pink_vampire> i will go with something that i can get local.
[07:23:45] <Valen> there will be something that will have that name or something similar in most hardware stores
[07:24:47] <pink_vampire> http://www.lowes.com/
[07:26:31] <Valen> http://www.lowes.com/Search=wipe+on+poly?storeId=10151&langId=-1&catalogId=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=wipe+on+poly#!
[07:33:02] <pink_vampire> cool!
[07:43:33] <Encapsulation> I think the 6090 is too large
[07:43:39] <Encapsulation> requires forklft etc
[07:44:27] <archivist> I move my machines around on rollers
[07:45:41] <Encapsulation> realistically the 6090 is too large for apt and to be moved without a lift it looks likwe
[07:45:53] <archivist> nearly a ton look at the base http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2011/2011_07_13_Adcock_and_Shipley/IMG_1139.JPG
[07:48:37] <Encapsulation> too big
[07:48:53] * Encapsulation curses
[07:48:55] <Encapsulation> cant open my god damn eyes
[07:49:23] <Encapsulation> sometimes I wake up and this eye injury feels like its back
[07:49:26] <Encapsulation> and light is so bright
[07:49:47] <Encapsulation> anyway, 6090 desktop unit looks interesting, but I wonder about rigidity compared to the 6040
[07:50:15] <Encapsulation> http://www.ebay.com/itm/6090-CNC-Router-Engraving-Drilling-Milling-Machine-2-2KW-Water-Cooled-Spindle-/191641737352?hash=item2c9ebcd888:g:t5oAAOSwKtlWtTUj
[07:50:19] <Encapsulation> desktop 6090 version
[07:51:08] <archivist> depends what you are making
[07:52:26] <Encapsulation> the aluminym enclosures I wanted to mill
[07:52:31] <Encapsulation> plus a larger unit like that maybe a guitar body
[07:52:45] <Encapsulation> also small alu parts
[07:52:52] <archivist> oh you under a different nick
[07:53:09] <Encapsulation> oh yeah sorry
[07:53:28] <Polymorphism> was on laptop before
[07:54:24] <Valen> I'm thinking of making a desktop sided mill
[07:54:39] <Valen> I'm thinking size of a microwave, but probably 1.5x the height
[07:55:01] <Valen> tossing up between epoxy granite and steel
[07:57:02] <Polymorphism> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/crp2448-2-x-4-cnc-router-kit-p-164.html
[07:57:04] <Polymorphism> I wonder how this compares
[07:57:25] <Polymorphism> looks absurdly expensive actually
[07:57:30] <Polymorphism> with electronics etc
[07:57:55] <Polymorphism> 8500 total for a 2x4 diy?
[07:57:58] <Polymorphism> wtf?
[07:58:07] <Polymorphism> I could buy amazing commercial machine for that much
[07:58:31] <Polymorphism> oh that doesnt even include spindle ffs
[07:59:27] <Jymmm> Polymorphism: What's the link to this amazing commercial machine you speak of?
[08:00:27] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Laguna-Tools-IQ-HHC-24-x-36-CNC-Router-Machine-Industrial-Desktop-CNC-/390966963942
[08:00:35] <Polymorphism> http://www.shopbottools.com/products.htm
[08:00:40] <Polymorphism> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiN4JKort7LAhUBTz4KHc8aCyoQFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xzerocnc.com%2Fraptor.htm&usg=AFQjCNFPrd53UvWI0TTpuBvqZ06e0QQatA
[08:00:46] <Polymorphism> I would buy all 3 of those before I spent 10,000 on a kit
[08:00:57] <Polymorphism> or however much it ends up being when all is said and done
[08:01:09] <Polymorphism> I should say, any of those 3
[08:01:36] <Polymorphism> not saying DIY doesnt make sense
[08:01:45] <Polymorphism> just saying that site appears to be a criminal ripoff
[08:10:33] <Polymorphism> so the 3040 machines are inferior construction I've read
[08:12:31] <Polymorphism> I think I'll avoid 6090 for sure
[08:12:35] <Polymorphism> the full size version
[08:12:39] <Polymorphism> the desktop I will consider
[08:12:46] <Polymorphism> but the customer support looks crappy
[08:12:51] <Polymorphism> I weouldnt want to deal with such a large item
[08:12:52] <Polymorphism> ""In China, you got what you pay, you ask for low price machine, so we make a lower configured machine, if you want higher configured machine, price will be higher.""
[08:13:01] <Polymorphism> wow.
[08:15:21] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t34.0-12/12782442_10154040123043648_1409313433_n.jpg?oh=26441a22d730b722a77862c8554f1823&oe=56F903BB oh yeah ... less than 0.05mm of error over 400mm now and starting to get some great contact =)
[08:15:54] <MrSunshine_> do not know how i manage to get those stupid marks in it tho :P
[08:16:00] <MrSunshine_> lets call them oil groves :P
[08:16:20] <Polymorphism> those marks...
[08:17:27] <MrSunshine_> tho its only for a mating surface so oil groves might be overkill =)
[08:18:43] <MrSunshine_> might be about as close as i can get it also with a DIN875/1 square ... as it has 0.035mm of maximum diviation
[08:24:42] <Polymorphism> this 6040 will serve me well long time
[08:26:48] <Polymorphism> I have to say though
[08:26:53] <Polymorphism> I am interested in the 3040 still
[08:26:58] <Polymorphism> if only because of the low price
[08:27:03] <Polymorphism> (as little as 450 shipped USD)
[08:27:47] <Polymorphism> 11"x15" vs 15.5" x 25.5"
[08:53:21] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htsXSj8kclI
[08:53:29] <minibnz> oh this has been a fun two days.. learning more of the classicladder PLC..
[08:54:03] <Polymorphism> =D
[08:54:38] <minibnz> so far i have a small DC motor setup in a test jig that simulates my tool platter. and right now i can issue a M6 T1-12 and the motor will index to the right slot on the wheel.
[08:54:56] <Polymorphism> sounds like progress to me!
[08:54:57] <Sync> MrSunshine_: you need to work a bit on your technique, you are digging in
[08:55:08] <minibnz> gotta work out how to link the ATC actuator into the mix.
[08:55:46] <minibnz> its so fun trying to keep track of all the variables and pins that i have used in the ladder programs
[08:56:55] <minibnz> would be nice if i coould add a note to each rung of the ladder so i know what its meant to be doing at a glance.
[08:57:46] <Polymorphism> cant you add comments?
[08:58:07] <Polymorphism> nvm I see
[08:58:07] <minibnz> havent found that feature yet. if its there..
[09:00:14] <minibnz> it doesnt help that the monitor i am doing this all on is crap and doesnt have a high resolution so i get to only see one and half rungs if i work carefully
[09:03:39] <robin_sz> morning
[09:04:05] <robin_sz> cradek, you mentioned there was a HAL component for retract-when-paused?
[09:09:13] <robin_sz> or did you just mean the "moveoff" component?
[09:12:07] <minibnz> oh im a going to have to upgrade to a meas card
[09:13:31] <minibnz> probably go with the 6I24-25 for $159us.. im using more pins than i thought i every was going to use.
[09:14:14] <minibnz> i have maxed out the two par ports i have on the card..
[09:34:06] <minibnz> so that will be 58pins out of the 72pins with planned uses.
[09:34:31] <minibnz> leaves me 14 to do something else with.
[09:36:07] <minibnz> thats 5 axis with encoders and all limit switches plus the tool changer
[09:36:41] <robin_sz> would you not be better off buying the plug-n-go kit, with the interface baord included?
[09:36:46] <robin_sz> 6I24-25
[09:38:00] <robin_sz> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69_73&product_id=218
[09:38:06] <pcw_home> also a -25 card is not liable to get anywhere near fully utilized for LinuxCNC so a -16 makes more sense
[09:38:27] <minibnz> im not sure i see the value in getting the breakout boards (screw terminal boards) and i already have everything else, ie stepper drivers and am building the tool changer.
[09:39:05] <minibnz> pcw_home thanks thats very useful
[09:39:27] <robin_sz> you are planning to connect DIRECT to the 6i25?
[09:39:48] <minibnz> yeah i dont see why not
[09:39:54] <robin_sz> no opto isolators?
[09:40:02] <robin_sz> no input clamp diodes
[09:40:05] <robin_sz> ?
[09:40:33] <minibnz> the stepper board already has all that... and the boards i am making willl also include them
[09:40:49] <pcw_home> you can use the FPGA signals directly, but a wiring mistake can be costly...
[09:41:32] <minibnz> yeah thats no problem for me :)
[09:42:14] <minibnz> once i work out exactly what i need to drive and what signals are needed
[09:42:22] <robin_sz> make no sense to me .. some of the plug and go kits are like $50 more than the bare card
[09:42:25] <minibnz> i can make a nice board..
[09:42:40] <robin_sz> do you want to come and work for me?
[09:43:00] <minibnz> no i have a great job that pays well
[09:43:20] <robin_sz> damn, we would have hired you on double that rate
[09:43:24] <minibnz> and i really enjoy what i do so i dont see any labor in doing it this way
[09:43:29] <robin_sz> ok,
[09:46:02] <minibnz> like my 3d printer i have made every part of that my self except for the PCB's. the ardiuno was off the shelf and i assembled the RAMPS. then i built every part out of bare metal or aluminium. its a beast.
[09:46:25] <minibnz> i really enjoy building machines. especially when i can use those to build other things.
[09:46:48] <minibnz> using the mill and printer to make parts for a laser :) the list goes on..
[09:47:30] <minibnz> i know i could just go and buy these machines but that will only teach me how to buy something, not how all the parts work and why they work
[09:49:42] <minibnz> so the mill i have purchased the seig X2 and added steppers, since then i added ball screws and now i will get the tool changer working then i will add encoders..
[09:49:44] <robin_sz> I just found it very useful to plug in a nice pre-made interface and have it just work .. I think it cost me $80 extra, and its a great to have that part done so I can concentrate onthe fun stuff like configuring the HAL stuff, and tweaking the code
[09:50:29] <robin_sz> id rather spend the time making the tool changer really clever than making up opto-baords I can buy for a few dollars pre made
[09:51:51] <minibnz> yeah but that cable is not going to work for me, i have a small box about 300mm x 200mm x 150mm that has a single board pc, power supplies and the stepper and breakouts in. if i was going to add the breakout by mesa that will mean a custom cable and/or a new box to put all my electronics in
[09:52:34] <robin_sz> you are going to make your breakouts with SMD?
[09:52:53] <minibnz> maybe SMD is no problem
[09:53:23] <robin_sz> yeah, if you do it SMD you shoudl be able to get it smaller than the Mesa
[09:54:04] <minibnz> it will probably be a mix, use thru hole for the power components and smd for the lv signal
[09:54:47] <minibnz> the mesa breakout is only big due to the screw terminals. which really you only use once
[09:55:01] <minibnz> so i can go without them
[09:55:17] <robin_sz> they are very nice to use though, made for a real neat install
[09:55:39] <minibnz> once the lid is on the box i cant see it :)
[09:56:05] <minibnz> and hopefuly will be doing other things than worrying about how sexy my cabinet is
[09:56:48] <robin_sz> well, each to their own
[09:57:20] <minibnz> yes this is the good thing about open source.. and linuxcnc is so damn configurable its crazy
[09:57:34] <robin_sz> im trying to figure out the moveoff component for a z retract
[09:58:21] <minibnz> yeah exactly.. there are so many options and so many ways to do something its driving me nuts
[09:58:49] <robin_sz> the z retract demo *almost* works like I want
[09:59:31] <robin_sz> its does a fixed distance retract, which is not what I want
[10:00:01] <minibnz> learning the plc i worked out three ways to do the counting for the tool changer and still not sure if thats the best way. for some reason the pallet goes to slot zero even when there is no slot zero i think there was a hal line for that somewhere..
[10:00:47] <minibnz> sounds like you need to load up the tool z offset into a variable to use that for the distance
[10:00:56] <robin_sz> yep
[10:01:05] <robin_sz> in gcode it would be a piece of cake
[10:01:09] <minibnz> i think that should be already availiable
[10:01:35] <robin_sz> not really, it seems quite difficult, I guess no one ever used it on a router befre
[10:02:05] <minibnz> cant just set all your tools the same height?
[10:02:08] <robin_sz> or not many anyway, but I would have thought routers were kinda popular
[10:02:16] <robin_sz> wut?
[10:02:42] <robin_sz> that would never work
[10:03:34] <robin_sz> firstly, practically, a 10mm drill is way longer than a 1.5mm engraving bit
[10:03:43] <robin_sz> and thats not even the problem
[10:04:26] <minibnz> ok
[10:04:28] <robin_sz> if you hit pause when the spindle is already mostly retracted, it tries to retract even further
[10:04:57] <minibnz> ahhh i see
[10:05:26] <robin_sz> I want it to fully retract when I hit pause, and stop the spindle
[10:05:29] <minibnz> any way to add a limit switch to that?
[10:05:44] <minibnz> would make the ladder really simple
[10:05:51] <robin_sz> ladder?
[10:06:03] <minibnz> the classicladder plc
[10:06:08] <robin_sz> its not used
[10:06:29] <robin_sz> this is a HAL component
[10:06:29] <minibnz> oh ok you are using some pre made module?
[10:06:32] <minibnz> oh
[10:06:35] <robin_sz> moveoff
[10:07:15] <robin_sz> theres a demo, but its not right for me yet
[10:07:33] <robin_sz> need to get rid of some of the GUI stuff, I dont need the popups
[10:08:23] <robin_sz> and calculate the required offset as (fully retacted absolute position - current position)
[10:08:40] <robin_sz> and stop (and re-start) the spindle
[10:24:04] <minibnz> ok its bedtime for me.. talk with you all later
[11:08:32] <CaptHindsight> A 23" ARM Tablet with Ethernet http://armdevices.net/2016/03/17/270-fhd-23-6-indoor-digital-signage-on-allwinner-a83-by-suncentech/ that can run Linuxcnc
[11:10:08] <Roguish> all in one controller and HMI
[11:11:41] <CaptHindsight> never mind it has a PowerVR GPU
[11:11:52] <robin_sz> does anyone understand the windowmanager, xwindows enviroment in the install CD?
[11:12:15] <robin_sz> I need to disable the screen going to sleep
[11:12:25] <robin_sz> its getting on my nerves
[11:13:03] <robin_sz> walk away from it and its poweered down the screen by the time I get pack
[11:13:07] <robin_sz> *back
[11:13:53] <robin_sz> and how do you make the mouse copy/paste work in the normalway again?
[11:14:47] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: are you using wheezy?
[11:15:04] <robin_sz> im using whatever it is thats on the latest install CD
[11:15:29] <CaptHindsight> yes, annoying
[11:15:54] <robin_sz> debian 7.9
[11:15:54] <CaptHindsight> disable the screen saver...
[11:16:21] <CaptHindsight> and then you might have to turn off power management for the monitor in X
[11:16:22] <robin_sz> now, I have been a debian user for 10 years, but this variant seems completely screwed up
[11:16:37] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, I did both of those things already
[11:16:49] <CaptHindsight> then I think it's the kernel
[11:17:08] <robin_sz> and the mouse behaviour?
[11:17:31] <CaptHindsight> I don't use Linuxcnc with debian but I recall your pain when testing it
[11:18:29] <robin_sz> I'm completely bored of having to do ctrl-c and ctrl-v to copy and paste ...
[11:18:52] <robin_sz> its like some Windows user has tried to make it worse
[11:20:53] <Polymorphism> anyone here own 3040 or 6040 china cnc
[11:21:28] <CaptHindsight> ooh but the A83 has an integrated ethernet MAC
[11:21:59] <CaptHindsight> with 8 cores software rendering might be fast enough
[11:22:46] <CaptHindsight> Roguish: it could connect to an FPGA over Ethernet
[11:22:50] <robin_sz> I have xfce power manager to monitor:sleep: never
[11:22:51] <Polymorphism> I justr got an idea....
[11:23:00] <robin_sz> monitor:switch off:never
[11:23:01] <Polymorphism> can a raspberry pi run a cnc?
[11:23:05] <Polymorphism> with linux cnc
[11:23:06] <robin_sz> yes
[11:23:24] <Polymorphism> incredible
[11:24:29] <robin_sz> not sure if with linuxCNC, but there are other builds on it
[11:24:30] <MrSunshine_> Sync: i think its the scraper model i used .. + its soft iron im scraping =)
[11:24:45] <MrSunshine_> just did myself a cast iron square with a new scraper i made =)
[11:24:53] <robin_sz> so, any clues on how to configure the mouse to behave normally?
[11:26:13] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t34.0-12/12895539_10154040786518648_721249804_n.jpg?oh=33d4564b3386cba98d6640dc62bccc7b&oe=56F8C33B
[11:26:22] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t34.0-12/12910997_10154040786383648_552131982_n.jpg?oh=7fb358e9da9ae6cc7d72675f15952af5&oe=56F8C5A8
[11:26:29] <MrSunshine_> https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t34.0-12/12910849_10154040786448648_1728207812_n.jpg?oh=4baab6c7971107b28a4ab4e3d8d5478c&oe=56F8E329
[11:26:31] <MrSunshine_> =)
[11:26:46] <MrSunshine_> that is a DIN875/0 square and no light is comming throught =)
[11:30:26] <CaptHindsight> robin_sz: not sure why your mouse won't behave
[11:30:32] <CaptHindsight> haven't seen that one
[11:30:47] <robin_sz> its behaving like Windows
[11:30:54] <robin_sz> not like Linux
[11:31:24] <CaptHindsight> maybe you're right, some genius had another great idea
[11:36:27] <codepython777> are these new 3d printer cum CNC machines useful for anything? Anyone owns one?
[11:37:15] <Duc_mobile> uh?
[11:37:29] <Polymorphism> if you have a piece that is too long in just y axis can you just keep refixturing?
[11:37:32] <Polymorphism> and mill the whole length
[11:37:45] <CaptHindsight> codepython777: FDM + mill? or??
[11:37:56] <codepython777> CaptHindsight: Lemme see if i can find the one i was looking at
[11:39:47] <archivist> Polymorphism, one can but the machine quality better be good if you want it to turnout nice if the machining is visible
[11:40:38] <codepython777> https://zmorph3d.com/ - this is the one i was looking at : CaptHindsight
[11:41:22] <codepython777> From their website: object-maker, for 3D-printing, CNCmilling, laser-cutting, and 3D-object scanning - I hope this is useful, precise and reliable :)
[11:41:56] <archivist> rofl
[11:41:59] <CaptHindsight> if you extrude cheese-like food substitute it could polish it
[11:42:24] <CaptHindsight> it's a toy
[11:43:07] <CaptHindsight> it might have the milling power to smooth the PLA it extrudes
[11:43:24] <codepython777> i thought it claimed milling power to be 200W or something
[11:43:40] <CaptHindsight> toy
[11:44:04] <CaptHindsight> the frame will twist if you try much more
[11:44:08] <archivist> those stupid thin bars stops it doing any serious milling
[11:44:19] <CaptHindsight> could cut foam
[11:44:51] <archivist> as long as the foam has large air bubbles
[11:45:09] <codepython777> https://markforged.com/ - is this of any use to build strong parts?
[11:45:31] <CaptHindsight> very slowly
[11:45:44] <CaptHindsight> very very slowly
[11:46:04] <codepython777> expensive too? I cant seem to find what the material cost is
[11:46:17] <CaptHindsight> they just extrude a thermoplastic with CF strand
[11:46:48] <codepython777> nylon + CF , but they also have fiberglass, kevlar?
[11:47:01] <CaptHindsight> well any fiber that fits
[11:47:09] <CaptHindsight> not rocket science
[11:47:38] <CaptHindsight> only one nozzle so it's glacially slow
[11:48:25] <CaptHindsight> and pretty low res
[11:48:30] <CaptHindsight> like most FDM
[11:48:58] <CaptHindsight> but they do have a great hype machine working for them
[11:49:17] <CaptHindsight> hired a good PR firm
[11:50:07] <CaptHindsight> fiber reinforced SLA or inkjet is much faster and higher res
[11:51:03] <CaptHindsight> $6k - $13.5K depending on model and features
[11:51:16] <CaptHindsight> do they have some patent claim?
[11:51:27] <maxcnc> hi all from a Real sunny day in germany
[11:51:43] <Polymorphism> hasnt anyone asked his budget yet
[11:51:52] <Polymorphism> there is only one best mill at each price point
[11:51:52] <robin_sz> the milling head looks like it could support 3mm cutters max
[11:52:20] <maxcnc> Polymorphism: did you order today
[11:52:27] <Polymorphism> maxcnc, still finalizing decision
[11:52:28] <robin_sz> the best mill is the biggest you can find for the money, that your floor will support
[11:53:00] <robin_sz> and at least 50mm in each direction bigger than the biggest job you want to run
[11:53:08] <maxcnc> robin_sz: thats always the best to go
[11:53:28] <robin_sz> I quite liked my beavermills
[11:53:46] <maxcnc> But the othere side is make more money on smaler mashines and bye then bigger ones
[11:53:47] <Polymorphism> I think hes looking for an all in one ready to go cnc mill
[11:54:09] <CaptHindsight> https://markforged.com/charles/ LOL Printed on Markforged 52 hours ...
[11:54:12] <maxcnc> i got 1000 jobs on 1x1meter parts
[11:54:15] <archivist> all in one= too many compromises
[11:54:24] <CaptHindsight> Machined from Aluminum 3-5 days + shipping
[11:54:33] <maxcnc> and 4 on the mashine size a year
[11:54:34] <Polymorphism> I was tempted to go with 3040 or even 3020 maxcnc due to price, but I think I would fregret the smaller size
[11:54:39] <CaptHindsight> what A-holes, comparing in house to outsourced
[11:54:42] <maxcnc> but all mashines are same big size
[11:54:51] <codepython777> Polymorphism: how much is the maxcnc coming for ? Where at?
[11:54:58] <CaptHindsight> how about 52 hours printed vs 3 hours machined
[11:55:22] <Polymorphism> and by the time you equip them with ball screws, 800w spindle, etc they asre around 800
[11:55:27] <Polymorphism> hardly worth the savings for such a smaller work area
[11:55:50] <maxcnc> Polymorphism: this mashines are not worth the money they cost
[11:56:18] <maxcnc> i told you to go on your own needd
[11:56:23] <CaptHindsight> codepython777: Markforged treats you like you're stupid
[11:56:57] <Polymorphism> maxcnc, you mean the 3020////3040?
[11:56:58] <codepython777> I'm looking for something that I can use to convert a cad part to a machined aluminum (or similar strength material) - cost < $10k. Preferably easy to maintain.
[11:57:05] <Polymorphism> I think 6040 is the one thats worth the money
[11:57:06] <maxcnc> Polymorphism: yes
[11:57:11] <Polymorphism> good size, fair price, better built
[11:57:19] <Polymorphism> I could even make a guitar body
[11:57:21] <Polymorphism> I think
[11:57:31] <codepython777> CaptHindsight: they have some pretty good videos :)
[11:57:32] <maxcnc> codepython777: part size
[11:57:35] <CaptHindsight> codepython777: where are you located?
[11:57:40] <robin_sz> Id always go for a second hand proper machine and retrofit the CNC if it was not working, those new shiny things are usually rubbish
[11:57:59] <codepython777> CaptHindsight: Florida
[11:58:03] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, this is for my apartment though
[11:58:10] <Polymorphism> I need something of a reasonable size
[11:58:15] <codepython777> maxcnc: I could live with 5" x 5" x 5"
[11:58:16] <Polymorphism> and weight
[11:58:41] <Polymorphism> codepython777, and I want the same thing
[11:58:45] <maxcnc> im in Germany so is it inch or feet
[11:58:48] <codepython777> would prefer bigger - if my other conditions are satisfied. (easy to maintain, high resolution, multi-axis, etc)
[11:58:50] <Polymorphism> have you looked at 6040 machine codepython777 ?
[11:58:55] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262330315038 2 mills for $4k
[11:58:59] <maxcnc> thats pcb size
[11:59:28] <maxcnc> that is on less then 2k to go for Aluminum parts
[11:59:49] <maxcnc> stiffness ion SBR25
[11:59:51] <robin_sz> oh apartment ... lol, well, yeah, you are very limited
[11:59:58] <maxcnc> or Hwin25
[12:00:16] <codepython777> Polymorphism: I'm just beginning - I was also looking at : http://www.pocketnc.com/products/
[12:00:24] <Polymorphism> I saw the pocketNC as well
[12:00:27] <maxcnc> take 10inches as Axis mesurment
[12:00:31] <Polymorphism> we are looking for the ssmee thing codepython777
[12:00:37] <maxcnc> so 20 inches mashine size etch direction
[12:00:39] <Polymorphism> except you need smaller size work area than I do
[12:00:39] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, thats the Matsuura I pointed out the other day, a bargain!
[12:00:48] <codepython777> Polymorphism: what are you inclined to do?
[12:00:51] <maxcnc> codepython777: you are in FL
[12:00:55] <robin_sz> CaptHindsight, matsuura are VERY well built machines, one of the best
[12:01:01] <robin_sz> make haas look like cheap shit
[12:01:05] <Polymorphism> codepython777, maybe this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-CNC-Router-Engraver-Milling-Machine-Engraving-Drilling-4-Axis-6040-Desktop-/291054639648?hash=item43c4355a20:g:VnoAAOSw1ZBUyYZj
[12:01:29] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Emco-PC-Mill-55-Trainer-Countertop-CNC-Milling-Machine-/191833771183 $3500 but at least they work
[12:01:31] <maxcnc> robin_sz: Haas minimill
[12:01:46] <Polymorphism> also this, bu tI dont know as much about the quality: http://www.ebay.com/itm/800W-CNC-Router-4Axis-3020-Engraver-SPINDLE-MOTOR-VFD-Ball-Screw-Water-Cooled-US-/291705845776?hash=item43eb05f810:g:g5AAAOSw~gRV0Ypo
[12:01:46] <codepython777> Polymorphism: that machine is cheap :)
[12:01:50] <Polymorphism> codepython777, yes =D
[12:01:50] <robin_sz> I had a VF2, the minimill is smaller
[12:01:58] <Polymorphism> codepython777, go on youtube look for 6040
[12:02:02] <Polymorphism> and see if mayne it works for you?
[12:02:09] <Polymorphism> they have alu
[12:02:10] <Polymorphism> etc
[12:02:27] <maxcnc> the Vf2 is the best to go for 4axis
[12:02:40] <codepython777> Polymorphism: 6040 looks impressive.
[12:02:59] <Polymorphism> agreed
[12:02:59] <maxcnc> mase lots of parts for women cases cutting
[12:03:03] <codepython777> $1500 - 4-axis , so 5-axis = ? :)
[12:03:08] <Polymorphism> I've done a lot of research codepython777 and if youre on a budget, it looks very nice
[12:03:32] <Polymorphism> if you want to spend more, these look nice codepython777 http://www.xzerocnc.com/
[12:03:32] <maxcnc> hand bags made oit of highend material
[12:03:38] <Polymorphism> for 5 axis, if you only need a small work area
[12:03:42] <Polymorphism> pocketNC does look interesting.....
[12:03:47] <Polymorphism> just too small work area for me =S
[12:04:14] <codepython777> I agree - its too small
[12:04:23] <maxcnc> Polymorphism: you see why here are som many mashines around me
[12:04:35] <maxcnc> every mashine got its job a a time
[12:05:09] <CaptHindsight> just FYI, the same people have been asking about 6040 type mills day after day, hour after hour
[12:05:12] <Polymorphism> codepython777, http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-3040-5-Axis-Table-Column-Type-Engraving-Machine-Router-High-pricision-Ball-/251454554347?hash=item3a8bdc00eb:g:d60AAOxy-WxTAyMl
[12:05:15] <Polymorphism> 11"x15"
[12:05:17] <CaptHindsight> they just like to talk about it
[12:05:20] <Polymorphism> I dont know about the quality though, ok?
[12:05:27] <Polymorphism> and you might find it cheaper
[12:05:38] <maxcnc> im off Gn8
[12:05:41] <Polymorphism> gn
[12:06:00] <Polymorphism> CaptHindsight,
[12:06:02] <CaptHindsight> it's about an 8 hour loop
[12:06:10] <Polymorphism> actually people who spend a lot of money on things sometimes like to make sure the purchase is wise
[12:06:15] <Polymorphism> and the best value for their hard earned money
[12:06:28] <Polymorphism> if I were building , I wouldnt be as concerned
[12:06:32] <CaptHindsight> before the same questions start back up again
[12:06:33] <Polymorphism> I can always fix it later or upgrade
[12:06:37] <Polymorphism> this machine, I'd like ready to run
[12:06:49] <codepython777> whats the size on the pocketnc?
[12:06:56] <Polymorphism> only about 5.5" square
[12:07:01] <Polymorphism> work area
[12:07:09] <Polymorphism> not sure of z axis
[12:07:14] <CaptHindsight> it's like 50 First Dates
[12:07:19] <Polymorphism> make sure you consider z axis as well
[12:10:21] <codepython777> Polymorphism: whats the best machine you've seen for < 10k ? Preferably 5-axis
[12:11:16] <Polymorphism> tough to say, depends on the work area you need
[12:11:20] <Polymorphism> and materials
[12:13:48] <codepython777> CaptHindsight: what is your fav machine for < 10k?
[12:13:58] <pink_vampire> hi
[12:14:07] <CaptHindsight> something used and modified
[12:14:29] <codepython777> I should have mentioned - new please :)
[12:14:31] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: did you order a machine?
[12:14:35] <CaptHindsight> nothing that runs on 120V in an apartment
[12:14:51] <codepython777> Polymorphism: http://carbide3d.com/ - what did you think about this one?
[12:14:55] <CaptHindsight> I'd have to build it
[12:15:08] <Polymorphism> codepython777, we are walking down the same road xD
[12:15:15] <Polymorphism> I think its overpriced compared to the 6040
[12:15:27] <CaptHindsight> codepython777: just FYI, Polymorphism is on the 8 hour ask the same questions loop
[12:15:27] <Polymorphism> small work area, its enclosed and quiet and does have nice software if youre new to cnc
[12:15:30] <Polymorphism> but its quite different
[12:15:40] <Polymorphism> CaptHindsight, stop trolling
[12:15:41] <Polymorphism> seriously
[12:15:43] <Polymorphism> is that all you do
[12:15:52] <CaptHindsight> and then changes his nick, ask the same questions, rinse repeat
[12:15:54] <Polymorphism> I haven't seen a serious line of text from you in a week
[12:16:03] <codepython777> k - stop fighting guys, please
[12:16:11] <Polymorphism> about the nomad
[12:16:14] <Polymorphism> I talked to apollo on the phone
[12:16:19] <Polymorphism> great guy but sells it a bit too much
[12:16:28] <CaptHindsight> I'm just pointing it out. Not sure if what the cause is.
[12:16:32] <Polymorphism> I think its great for small work probably, but the spindle is only... 200 watts or so
[12:16:36] <CaptHindsight> if/of
[12:16:59] <Polymorphism> its more of a "do you have the extra cash, and is what it offers as well as the smaller work bed worht it to you"
[12:17:01] <Polymorphism> vs a 6040
[12:17:06] <djdelorie> Polymorphism: I built my machine in less time than it's taken you to agonize over which one to buy... ;-)
[12:17:20] <Polymorphism> hyperbole XD
[12:17:31] <djdelorie> just pick one and make the most of it. If it doesn't work out, sell it and upgrade
[12:17:31] <codepython777> djdelorie: you can't assume that poly knows how to build a reliable machine?
[12:17:47] <CaptHindsight> this channel conforms to ADA
[12:17:47] <djdelorie> I can now assume he's not so good at picking one to buy either...
[12:17:48] <Polymorphism> I like to make the right choice the first time
[12:17:59] <Polymorphism> djdelorie,
[12:18:01] <djdelorie> what's the fun in that? ;-)
[12:18:02] <Polymorphism> you couldnt be more mistaken
[12:18:15] <Polymorphism> what youre seeing is one of the people who loves their decision
[12:18:27] <Polymorphism> not the many posts of those who regretted and had to upgrade later, had problems, etc
[12:18:42] <Polymorphism> this is what it takes
[12:18:45] <Polymorphism> to make an informed decision
[12:18:49] <djdelorie> perhaps regret comes from setting your expectations too high
[12:18:59] <Polymorphism> perhaps sometimes
[12:19:37] <Polymorphism> codepython777, someone made a good point the other day
[12:19:46] <Polymorphism> these machines that are from kickstarter and have that indie feel
[12:19:51] <Polymorphism> most tend to be more toy than tool
[12:19:53] <CaptHindsight> small 5-axis machines start at ~$30K new
[12:19:55] <Polymorphism> the nomad is a slight exception
[12:19:56] <Polymorphism> its quality
[12:20:00] <Polymorphism> but its small work area
[12:20:03] <Polymorphism> lower power
[12:20:07] <Polymorphism> and more money
[12:20:12] <Polymorphism> and made in usa, if that matters to you
[12:20:14] <Polymorphism> so lots of pros and cons
[12:20:21] <Polymorphism> CaptHindsight, pocketNC is 4000
[12:20:26] <Polymorphism> 5.5" square work area
[12:20:31] <Polymorphism> looks nice but way more info needed
[12:20:38] <codepython777> Polymorphism: whats the z-height on that one?
[12:20:41] <CaptHindsight> you can build one with a 5 x 5 x 5" work volume for <$10K
[12:20:48] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: i think you have to make a list with your goals. travel, speed, accuracy, price, largest end mill, smallest end mill, and then we can see how to help you to build a machine that fit your needs
[12:21:25] <codepython777> Polymorphism: did you look at the tormachs?
[12:21:33] <Polymorphism> 1/4" largest 1/32" smallest accuracy .05 mm speed doesnt matter, work size 12"12" or larger
[12:21:43] <Polymorphism> codepython777, yes the tormach 440 looks AMAZING
[12:21:49] <Polymorphism> but I can't swing 10,000 dollars
[12:21:57] <Polymorphism> but it sounds like you may be able to, I'd take a long look at hte 440
[12:22:30] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: any machine with acme screws and very simple rails will work for that.
[12:22:44] <Polymorphism> so the 6040 will be fine for me it sounds like
[12:22:58] <Polymorphism> I could even get away with a cheapo 3020///3040 but whjy would I
[12:23:04] <Polymorphism> the 6040 is so much more machine for not much more money
[12:23:19] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: did you saw my machine on high speed machining?
[12:23:27] <Polymorphism> no link please
[12:23:34] <CaptHindsight> codepython777: you can scroll through the channel logs for the past week, the same questions have been asked and answered several times over
[12:23:55] <Polymorphism> codepython777, also take note of CaptHindsight messgaes over the same time period
[12:24:04] <Polymorphism> youll note nothing of substance and no useful contribution to the discussion
[12:24:11] <Polymorphism> they will follow the same pattern as this recent comment
[12:24:30] <CaptHindsight> what small desktop mill for aluminum
[12:24:32] <Polymorphism> criticizing others for trying to make an informed purchase
[12:24:40] <Polymorphism> its pretty low man
[12:25:10] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/84908972 this is about 20% of the max speed
[12:26:26] <Polymorphism> very nice
[12:26:31] <Polymorphism> when you go to do the other side how do you align it?
[12:26:33] <codepython777> pink_vampire: nice - did you make that machine?
[12:26:55] <CaptHindsight> there are enough links and info to fill a good sized wiki
[12:26:59] <malcom2073> Hey Polymorphism, you pull the trigger on that 6040?
[12:27:02] <pink_vampire> codepython777: this is G0704
[12:27:15] <djdelorie> did you look at the openbuilds OX? Max'd out it's 39x29" for only $1600 in kit form
[12:27:46] <Polymorphism> malcom2073, getting very close
[12:27:58] <Polymorphism> I was backtracking this morning for a moment looking at the cheaper 3020 3040 machines
[12:28:03] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: don't make fun
[12:28:03] <Polymorphism> but by the time you get them decent and the small work area
[12:28:06] <Polymorphism> its not worth the savings
[12:28:12] <Polymorphism> and the z travel
[12:28:13] <Polymorphism> only 2.7"
[12:28:17] <Polymorphism> I think I would seriously regret that
[12:28:21] <Polymorphism> I HATE regretting purchases
[12:28:25] <Polymorphism> there is nothing worse in life
[12:28:27] <Polymorphism> so I must be sure
[12:28:29] <malcom2073> Yeah, I think the 3020 is significantly smaller, for not *that* much cost savings
[12:28:42] <Polymorphism> yeah and not as well built possibly
[12:28:53] <Polymorphism> crap dc spindle its over 800 once you get a decent 3020
[12:28:58] <Polymorphism> vs maybe 1200 for 8040
[12:29:20] <Polymorphism> so unless something insane happens in the next hours
[12:29:22] <Polymorphism> I'm ordering today
[12:29:33] <malcom2073> Cool
[12:30:10] <codepython777> poly: 6040?
[12:31:14] <codepython777> Polymorphism: 6040, what is the x-y accuracy? z?
[12:31:52] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure, tbh should be on that page
[12:32:20] <malcom2073> You're not gonna get real numbers from a china company about that
[12:32:34] <CaptHindsight> http://www.human-memory.net/disorders_anterograde.html
[12:32:35] <malcom2073> iirc, some people on cnczone have measured that
[12:32:44] <Polymorphism> malcom2073, can you help me interpret these two comments abvout the 6040?
[12:32:48] <Polymorphism> "+Dale Helmick Thats what i thought too until I figured out what was wrong with my 6040 1.5kw. First there are 4 hidden LARGE important screws underneath the 6040 CNC machine, that is easy to miss upon installation. After putting those 4 in, it dramatically increased rigidity. Lastly the stock CNC platform needs to be faced, before beginning work, the stock platform is SUPER uneven. After those two things were taken care of, the machi
[12:32:48] <Polymorphism> ne cuts like a dream."
[12:33:08] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: Sounds like he didn't assemble it right, but then fixed it
[12:33:10] <Polymorphism> and also "here are 4 large screws directly underneath your machine. Use only single flute end mills, face your platform, add a new sacrifice platform then face again. Add & make new linear guide bars with bearings to your cnc. Wiggle the tip of your spindle under it until it is completely rigid otherwise keep adding more guide bars"
[12:33:18] <pink_vampire> funny my g0704 can go 3 times faster then the tormach
[12:33:23] <Polymorphism> is he talking about upgrading to the x6-2200l style linear guide rails?
[12:33:44] <malcom2073> Unsure what he means by linear guide bars
[12:33:58] <CaptHindsight> http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/amnesia4.htm
[12:34:12] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: I r8 your troll 2/8
[12:34:35] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: just make something from 80/20 with your rails and servo motors, and you be able to run super fast and accurate.
[12:34:36] <CaptHindsight> just passing along the info
[12:34:52] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, "Add & make new linear guide bars with bearings to your cnc" what does he meaqn by this
[12:34:56] <Polymorphism> talking about 6040
[12:35:16] <Polymorphism> hiwin linear rail?
[12:35:16] <CaptHindsight> helps everyone understand
[12:35:48] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, whats the work area on your grizzly
[12:36:28] <pink_vampire> 45cm by 17cm by 30 cm
[12:36:58] <pink_vampire> x- 45cm, y-17cm, z-30 cm
[12:37:14] <archivist> grzzly is too slow (spindle) for your engraving
[12:37:14] <malcom2073> What's the in freedom units? :P
[12:37:25] <Polymorphism> ah ok, ty archivist
[12:37:34] <archivist> malcom2073, rattling fit :)
[12:37:44] <Polymorphism> work area also too small for me
[12:37:49] <malcom2073> Lol
[12:37:49] <Polymorphism> but nice machine
[12:38:19] <pink_vampire> yeah it's not for sheet material
[12:38:38] <Polymorphism> would the slower rpms just make a mess?
[12:38:40] <Polymorphism> with rough edges
[12:38:46] <Polymorphism> like when I tried to do this by hand and decided to buy a cnc
[12:39:04] <Polymorphism> after the 10th mini dremel bit shattered
[12:39:13] <Polymorphism> thats when I made the choice
[12:39:20] <Polymorphism> cutoff-wheel, not bit
[12:39:28] <pink_vampire> I don't like the low speed spindle, and the dovetail on the Z axis,
[12:39:31] <codepython777> Polymorphism: how deep (z-axis) can the 6040 cut?
[12:39:37] <Polymorphism> fairly deep
[12:39:41] <Polymorphism> 5-6" I think
[12:39:43] <Polymorphism> one moment
[12:39:52] <pink_vampire> but other then that, very cute machine
[12:40:08] <Polymorphism> wait, what??????
[12:40:10] <Polymorphism> this doesnt look right
[12:40:11] <Polymorphism> 1 sec
[12:40:27] <Polymorphism> this machine only has a 65mm z
[12:40:29] <Polymorphism> oh no.
[12:40:33] <Polymorphism> how could this have happened?
[12:40:38] <Polymorphism> this the x6 machine also have a superior z axis?
[12:40:46] <malcom2073> They're not made for deep cuts
[12:40:50] <pink_vampire> x6 have 140mm
[12:40:51] <malcom2073> They're made for sheet metal and thing stuff
[12:40:58] <Polymorphism> oh wait
[12:41:01] <Polymorphism> maybe I'm confusing this
[12:41:04] <Polymorphism> I dont need to cut deeper than that
[12:41:06] <Polymorphism> my issue is
[12:41:13] <Polymorphism> I want ot put whole box inside
[12:41:16] <Polymorphism> which is 3" high
[12:41:17] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: but if he want to cut a hole in a box..
[12:41:23] <djdelorie> the ox is a 3.5" Z
[12:41:23] <Polymorphism> and machine through te 2mm thick top
[12:41:30] <malcom2073> Oh, I thought your box tops were removable?
[12:41:37] <Polymorphism> some are, some not
[12:41:39] <Polymorphism> but...
[12:41:42] <malcom2073> That's what knee mills are for: Cutting small things in large objects heh
[12:41:43] <Polymorphism> can the spindle be adjusted????
[12:41:48] <Polymorphism> higher
[12:41:50] <Polymorphism> to fit hte part
[12:41:53] <Polymorphism> and then still have the travel
[12:41:54] <Polymorphism> to solve this
[12:42:27] <Polymorphism> hoily shit...
[12:42:28] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[12:42:34] <Polymorphism> 140mm z
[12:42:36] <Polymorphism> vs 65z
[12:42:45] <Polymorphism> that x6 really is a LOT different than the generic 6040s...
[12:42:56] <pink_vampire> http://www.omiocnc.com/media/wysiwyg/products/x6-2200usb/3-x6dimension-2.jpg
[12:43:02] <Polymorphism> unfortunately it also costs enough more that it brings other options back into the piture
[12:43:15] <Polymorphism> wow
[12:43:18] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-CNC-Router-Engraver-Milling-Machine-Engraving-Drilling-4-Axis-6040-Desktop-/291054639648?hash=item43c4355a20:g:VnoAAOSw1ZBUyYZj
[12:43:22] <Polymorphism> so this machine I was about to buy
[12:43:26] <pink_vampire> YOC556 High Performance Digital Stepper Drives, based on a 32-bit DSP processor
[12:43:43] <archivist> and other sale gimmicks
[12:43:48] <Polymorphism> is the x6 actually radically superior?
[12:43:55] <Polymorphism> and not just slightly
[12:44:08] <Polymorphism> its also 1000 more or something
[12:44:12] <Polymorphism> 2500 shipped
[12:44:15] <pink_vampire> but any stepper will be poor compered to servo.
[12:44:18] <Polymorphism> bringing other options back into the picture
[12:44:20] <archivist> make your own machine
[12:44:36] <Polymorphism> I dont think I have the kind of type it would take
[12:44:47] <Polymorphism> and to do it right, the patience , and the tweaking etc
[12:44:54] <Polymorphism> time*
[12:44:58] <archivist> else this make your mind up stuff will last another 5 years
[12:45:07] <malcom2073> +1
[12:45:35] <Polymorphism> well
[12:45:39] <djdelorie> are you willing to wait weeks for something to be shipped from China?
[12:45:39] <Polymorphism> I';m close ot my decision though
[12:45:42] <Polymorphism> it actually still might work for me
[12:45:44] <Polymorphism> its not from china
[12:45:49] <Polymorphism> its their warehouse crap they do
[12:45:53] <Polymorphism> so it will be hhere in 4 days
[12:45:55] <pink_vampire> you can get the body of the 6040 with this kit, http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema23-m-dc-servo-motor/3-axis-nema23-350ozin-60v20a-psu-g230x-gecko-driver
[12:46:00] <Polymorphism> theyu stock them in us warehouse
[12:46:08] <codepython777> Polymorphism: how much is that x6-2200?
[12:46:26] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: That ebay you linked has two week shipping for "Standard"
[12:46:27] <Polymorphism> and a spindle and VFD and wiring right?
[12:46:36] <Polymorphism> codepython777, about 2500 shipped
[12:47:03] <Polymorphism> it says it will be here by april 5th
[12:47:12] <Polymorphism> march 29th to april 5th
[12:47:14] <Polymorphism> from cali
[12:47:18] <Polymorphism> I buy a lot of shit on ebay
[12:47:20] <malcom2073> Sorry, week and a half
[12:47:25] <Polymorphism> 100 items this month
[12:47:32] <Polymorphism> a lot of sellers do the warehouse in USA thing
[12:47:33] <archivist> build your own teaches you more, get a work space to suit you and costs less
[12:47:35] <Polymorphism> to get it here faster
[12:47:47] <malcom2073> And an equal number "say" they do, then items come from DHL air shipment from china heh
[12:47:51] <Polymorphism> but I'm so busy with school and my business
[12:47:54] <Polymorphism> I dont know if I have time
[12:48:02] <Polymorphism> to design, build, test, etc
[12:48:08] <malcom2073> Doesn't matter though, as long as it doesn't take a month
[12:48:18] <Polymorphism> I would think it would take more
[12:48:22] <Polymorphism> and finals will be coming up
[12:48:36] <Polymorphism> I already have deadlines to meet
[12:48:39] <Polymorphism> I should be machining right now
[12:48:48] <Polymorphism> does anyone know
[12:48:54] <Polymorphism> on the cheaper 6040 on ebay can I adjust the z
[12:48:56] <Polymorphism> before cutting
[12:48:59] <codepython777> Polymorphism: whats wrong with the x6 apart from the price?
[12:49:00] <Polymorphism> to fit a 3" or 4" high part
[12:49:08] <pink_vampire> you can't.
[12:49:19] <Polymorphism> codepython777, only the price, its like an upgraded 6040 I think
[12:49:27] <pink_vampire> the bridge is too low
[12:49:44] <Polymorphism> so pink_vampire
[12:49:54] <malcom2073> I'm building a router with an adjustable bridge to avoid these kind of issues heh
[12:49:56] <Polymorphism> you're saying I can't cut anything 3" high in the 6040 on ebay link?
[12:50:16] <Polymorphism> the spindle cant move up and down at all and then I tighten it?
[12:50:19] <Polymorphism> like the x6 picture
[12:50:26] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/media/wysiwyg/products/x6-2200usb/3-x6dimension-2.jpg
[12:50:32] <Polymorphism> 140mm of spindle adjustment
[12:50:38] <Polymorphism> AND 140mm of actual z travel
[12:50:53] <Polymorphism> the ebay link, you can't adjust it the saem way?
[12:52:00] <codepython777> Polymorphism: what other machines are competing with the x6-6600 in that price range?
[12:52:10] <malcom2073> There was that one from yesterday you linked that looked pretty good
[12:52:16] <Polymorphism> get out of my mind codepython777 xD
[12:52:23] <Polymorphism> I need to know the same thing
[12:52:28] <Polymorphism> codepython777, thats the problem also
[12:52:31] <codepython777> Polymorphism: too cheap, and you will pay the price later :)
[12:52:34] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: try to ask omi about getting the machine without the motor and the controller,
[12:52:34] <Polymorphism> once you hit 2500 now.....
[12:52:40] <Polymorphism> why wouldngt I buy raptor?
[12:52:45] <Polymorphism> well its even moe I guess
[12:52:46] <pink_vampire> then put your servos,
[12:53:06] <archivist> when I made my mill Z was a restriction, I had to jack the column up another 8" to get proper space for the rotaries under it
[12:53:12] <Polymorphism> malcom2073, do you mean the x6-2200l
[12:53:40] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: No, you just linked that one
[12:53:42] <Polymorphism> ok well sorry I guess this is a totally noob question but
[12:53:42] <malcom2073> I mean yesterday
[12:53:43] <Polymorphism> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/6PsAAOSwmrlUyYZj/s-l1600.jpg
[12:53:44] <Polymorphism> in that picture
[12:53:51] <Polymorphism> the spindle cant go up or down?
[12:53:55] <Polymorphism> why not
[12:54:07] <Polymorphism> I'm just trying to understand
[12:54:09] <malcom2073> Raptor, that's the one
[12:54:19] <Polymorphism> couldnt I just loosen those bolts on the spindle moiunt
[12:54:22] <Polymorphism> and raise it up over my part
[12:54:59] <Polymorphism> https://www.circuitspecialists.com/content/112376/2506h-4.3-0.jpg
[12:55:03] <Polymorphism> to put something like this on the table
[12:55:05] <Polymorphism> and mill the top
[12:55:15] <Polymorphism> this is very important
[12:55:23] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: How much space do you need?
[12:55:29] <Polymorphism> because 2.7" of travel is enough for me if I can fit the part under
[12:55:37] <Polymorphism> I only need to cut througth 5mm max
[12:55:40] <malcom2073> What is your max part height?
[12:55:45] <Polymorphism> but I need to fit up to 3.5" high enclosures
[12:55:47] <Polymorphism> onto the table
[12:55:57] <Polymorphism> and honestly, the higher the better though
[12:56:03] <Polymorphism> but I think I could make 3.5" clearance work
[12:56:30] <malcom2073> 88mm, what's the 6040 have?
[12:56:48] <Polymorphism> well it says 65mm z travel
[12:56:58] <malcom2073> Ah hence your question
[12:57:00] <malcom2073> ask on the cnczone forums
[12:57:04] <malcom2073> good number of people have 6040's there
[12:57:06] <Polymorphism> but this picture http://www.omiocnc.com/media/wysiwyg/products/x6-2200usb/3-x6dimension-2.jpg though of hte competing model
[12:57:10] <Polymorphism> shows the spindle can be adjusted
[12:57:24] <malcom2073> I would imagine it can be, but I'd check first with people who have bought them
[12:58:30] <CaptHindsight> Islay 4 the win! and goin back to my gun cleanin, happy Saturday!
[12:59:49] <robin_sz> 32 bit DSP for a stepper drive?
[13:00:03] <malcom2073> robin_sz: Digital stepper drives as opposed to analog
[13:00:12] <robin_sz> ah, digital
[13:00:14] <malcom2073> probably has midrange resonance canceling
[13:00:37] <robin_sz> so do many analogue drives
[13:00:43] <malcom2073> robin_sz: Which ones?
[13:00:58] <malcom2073> I've been on the lookout to an alternative to the G540 and the leadshines
[13:00:59] <robin_sz> parker hannifin had many patents on that
[13:01:09] <malcom2073> There are many patents on a great many more things than happen to exist :P
[13:01:42] <Polymorphism> do you work for parker robin_sz ?
[13:01:51] <robin_sz> parker hannifin had mid range resonance cancelling back in the 80s if I remember right, its nothing new
[13:02:09] <malcom2073> Maybe that's why there are affordable drives now, the patent ran out
[13:02:28] <robin_sz> but if you can add the words "DSP" and "32 bit" ... it makes for great marketing :)
[13:02:32] <codepython777> Polymorphism: so the 440 is still at pre-order !
[13:02:37] <malcom2073> Marketing is king!
[13:02:47] <Polymorphism> codepython777, apparently @_@
[13:02:49] <Polymorphism> codepython777, http://www.xzerocnc.com/raptor.htm
[13:03:01] <Polymorphism> the 32bit dsp meant nothing to me
[13:03:03] <malcom2073> Technically, any sort of digital stepper drive could be considered DSP :)
[13:03:04] <Polymorphism> I jiust like how hte machine looks
[13:03:26] <Polymorphism> 8" travel z axis on the raptor
[13:03:38] <Polymorphism> 6" gangtry clearance
[13:03:46] <robin_sz> I find the Geckos work well to be honest, and they are dirt cheap
[13:03:58] <jdh> we buy tons of parker stepper drives at work. $50 chinese drives would work just as well for 90% of them
[13:04:32] <robin_sz> I just wish there was a torque mode on the Gecko servo drives
[13:04:49] <jdh> step/dir servos seem so sad
[13:06:15] <malcom2073> Heh robin_sz, we have differing defintions of dirt cheap
[13:06:37] <Polymorphism> the raptor cnc looks nice
[13:06:41] <Polymorphism> well equipped though the price is high
[13:06:49] <Polymorphism> 3500 USD
[13:06:50] <codepython777> is there a benchmark somewhere - for precision of cuts from pre-built cnc machines?
[13:06:51] <Polymorphism> before shipping
[13:07:02] <Polymorphism> so another 1000 beyond even the x6
[13:07:26] <Polymorphism> what level of precision do you require
[13:07:30] <CaptHindsight> heh, nobody would want that
[13:07:57] <codepython777> Polymorphism: a few microns would be nice.
[13:07:58] <robin_sz> malcom2073, seriously? $120 for a step drive is cheap, for that voltage and that current
[13:08:22] <malcom2073> robin_sz: Like I said, we have differing defintions
[13:08:43] <Polymorphism> dirt cheap is 20 bucks
[13:08:48] <Polymorphism> for a controller
[13:08:49] <robin_sz> malcom2073, what are the alternatives?
[13:08:56] <malcom2073> robin_sz: I have some $10 6600 drives that work pretty good
[13:09:00] <malcom2073> no anti-resonance of course
[13:09:08] <robin_sz> 7A 80V?
[13:09:16] <codepython777> Polymorphism: http://www.xzerocnc.com/predator.htm - does this load for you?
[13:09:19] <malcom2073> robin_sz: No, they're like $50
[13:09:26] <malcom2073> 3.5A 50V
[13:09:28] <malcom2073> for the $10 ones
[13:09:39] <robin_sz> 50V is not really enough
[13:09:44] <Polymorphism> codepython777, no
[13:09:44] <malcom2073> It's enough for a great many things
[13:09:52] <Polymorphism> demon pagfe broken too
[13:09:54] <Polymorphism> only raptor loads
[13:09:58] <codepython777> Polymorphism: dont buy from this company :)
[13:10:00] <Polymorphism> and its 3500 no controller no spindle
[13:10:05] <Polymorphism> xD
[13:10:08] <codepython777> Polymorphism: they can't make a webpage - CNC machine ?
[13:10:17] <robin_sz> malcom2073, give me a link to the $50 7A 80V ones then, I'll order a few
[13:11:00] <malcom2073> Meh, I liked, $70
[13:11:04] <malcom2073> sorry
[13:11:07] <malcom2073> lied*
[13:11:11] <robin_sz> still cheap
[13:11:20] <malcom2073> Still, aren't the $120 geckos like, 80v 3a?
[13:11:22] <malcom2073> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leadshine-AM882-Digital-Stepper-motor-Drive-80VDC-0-1A-8-2A-protect-function-/330782929553
[13:12:29] <Polymorphism> http://www.zenbotcnc.com/
[13:12:31] <Polymorphism> what about these?
[13:12:59] <malcom2073> robin_sz: I got my 3 axis 80v 10A drive for $150 fwiw
[13:13:05] <malcom2073> And I considered that an alright deal heh
[13:13:12] <robin_sz> malcom2073, they look ok to be fair
[13:13:23] <malcom2073> robin_sz: They're china, but at that price... just buy a spare
[13:13:49] <robin_sz> we tend to buy USA where we can and don't mind paying a little more
[13:14:00] <malcom2073> Yeah well... I'm not a company, I don't have lots of money :)
[13:14:26] <codepython777> Polymorphism: isnt that a router? - light work then? the zenbot?
[13:14:47] <robin_sz> if its 10, 20, even 30% its worth buying local
[13:14:54] <robin_sz> beyond that, well
[13:15:06] <malcom2073> Erm... Polymorphism: Those use steel square tube for the linear guides
[13:15:18] <malcom2073> you can build a router using steel square tube and skate bearings for like... $300
[13:15:24] <malcom2073> If you're gonna go that cheap
[13:15:32] <robin_sz> but it wont be that good
[13:16:13] <malcom2073> Cost vs "goodness". Gotta figure out where the midpoint lies
[13:16:23] <Polymorphism> 24"x24" 2000 shipped
[13:16:26] <Polymorphism> no spindle
[13:16:29] <Polymorphism> rubbish deal?
[13:16:33] <Polymorphism> or nice machine
[13:16:40] <malcom2073> Yeah, go for the x6, get a spindle, proper lienar bearings, for only $500 more
[13:16:55] <Polymorphism> ok so that choice is easy
[13:17:05] <Polymorphism> ok
[13:17:12] <robin_sz> malcom2073, I enjoy my cnc more than my car, so I spend more on that than I do my car, easy really
[13:17:17] <Polymorphism> what its really coming down to now then is the z travel issue
[13:17:24] <Polymorphism> time to go deep with a bit of research on that
[13:17:31] <robin_sz> its very easy
[13:17:43] <robin_sz> decide how thick you want to cut
[13:17:44] <malcom2073> robin_sz: My car is required for my job and life, my cnc is not.
[13:17:48] <robin_sz> double it
[13:17:54] <robin_sz> ad 1/4"
[13:17:56] <robin_sz> done
[13:18:24] <malcom2073> So the more I can get for my money when it comes to CNC, the better :)
[13:18:24] <Polymorphism> ??
[13:18:28] <Polymorphism> I know how thick I need to cut
[13:18:34] <Polymorphism> 5mm max honestly for au
[13:18:36] <Polymorphism> alu
[13:18:46] <Polymorphism> *but*
[13:18:53] <Polymorphism> I want to put these cases: into the machine
[13:19:12] <Polymorphism> http://www.yonggu-enclosure.com/uploads/yonggu-enclosure.com/images/20141230/1419914684247_540x359.jpg
[13:19:13] <Polymorphism> like this
[13:19:23] <Polymorphism> and machine the TOP for LCD, buttons, etc
[13:19:32] <Polymorphism> then take the end panels off, and machine them as well
[13:19:42] <Polymorphism> but as you can see, I need more thnsa 2.7" z CLEARANCE
[13:19:48] <Polymorphism> but not more than 1/4" z travel
[13:19:53] <robin_sz> exactly
[13:20:19] <robin_sz> minimising Z travel stiffens it up A LOT
[13:20:53] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/media/wysiwyg/products/x6-2200usb/3-x6dimension-2.jpg
[13:21:04] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, this machine shows you can adjust the spindle height to clear parts
[13:21:09] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-6040-DESKTOP-4AXIS-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-US-/221354177332?hash=item3389bcb334:g:yoIAAOSwm8VUyYZi
[13:21:12] <Polymorphism> is it the same here ^^^^
[13:21:14] <Polymorphism> or no?
[13:21:19] <Polymorphism> this is my final choice I must make now
[13:21:31] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: You really should ask someone who *has* a 6040, make a post on cnczone about it
[13:21:36] <Polymorphism> the first machine also has MUCH more z travel
[13:21:36] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[13:21:46] <Polymorphism> 140mm
[13:21:51] <Polymorphism> vs 64mm for ebay 6040
[13:21:59] <Polymorphism> but if the spindle height can adjust on the ebay 6040
[13:22:03] <Polymorphism> then it wont matter to me
[13:22:13] <Polymorphism> although, 2.7" seems a little limiting?
[13:22:19] <Polymorphism> if I wanted to carve a guitar for example
[13:22:31] <Polymorphism> 5.5" would be plenty for the thickness 3d carve
[13:22:33] <Polymorphism> but 2.7"
[13:22:35] <Polymorphism> might not be enough?
[13:22:52] <Polymorphism> so even if the clearance works... still must consider the travel
[13:22:56] <Polymorphism> but will the clearance even work?
[13:23:04] <robin_sz> lol guitar on that?
[13:23:05] <Polymorphism> because the choie is simple if I can't clear 3" boxes to cut the top
[13:23:30] <robin_sz> say you need to do 40mm pockets on a guiatr
[13:23:58] <robin_sz> and also some fine engraving
[13:24:00] <codepython777> Polymorphism: whats the competitor of 440 - but cheaper and better? :)
[13:24:13] <robin_sz> you could need 80mm of travel and a bit
[13:24:29] <robin_sz> looks a little weak
[13:25:10] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, you're saying 65mm travel wouldnt work for a guitar
[13:25:21] <Polymorphism> but 140mm probably would
[13:25:27] <robin_sz> imagine a 40mm pocket ...
[13:25:34] <Polymorphism> this is my vfirst cnc
[13:25:35] <Polymorphism> I'm trying
[13:25:41] <Polymorphism> I've only used a drill press
[13:25:42] <Polymorphism> =D
[13:25:43] <robin_sz> with a 40mm tool length minimum
[13:26:02] <Polymorphism> so 40mm tool
[13:26:04] <Polymorphism> + 40mm
[13:26:07] <Polymorphism> you need 80mm travel
[13:26:08] <Polymorphism> on the z
[13:26:11] <robin_sz> you'd need to lift the head a minimum of 80mm from the bed right,
[13:26:12] <Polymorphism> 65 won't cut it
[13:26:26] <Polymorphism> right
[13:26:34] <robin_sz> if you still wanted to be able to go close to the bed for engraving
[13:26:47] <Polymorphism> cant I just adjust spindle?
[13:26:50] <Polymorphism> thatds what i want to know
[13:26:55] <robin_sz> if you can shift the motor position, then it could be OK yes
[13:26:55] <Polymorphism> it looks like it goes up and down in the mount
[13:27:12] <Polymorphism> so then even 65mm of travel could mill 40mm pockets?
[13:27:20] <cncnoob1979> Im trying to configure linuxcnc using Gmoccapy. I noticed in my status page that max_velocity was set to a huge number. Any suggestions? My max veloictiy setting in my ini is set to 3.92
[13:29:56] <Polymorphism> codepython777, I don't think there is one xD
[13:30:03] <Polymorphism> I'm curious to know if there is though
[13:31:07] <maxcnc> hi i got a new internet ;-)
[13:31:11] <Polymorphism> nice =D
[13:31:13] <Polymorphism> welcome back
[13:31:34] <maxcnc> today the telecom went in and did a new cable conection
[13:31:49] <maxcnc> Cool now i got double speed at home
[13:32:02] <maxcnc> Germany gears up
[13:32:19] <Polymorphism> you know the germans make great stuff
[13:32:40] <maxcnc> cncnoob1979:
[13:33:07] <maxcnc> hi its in units per second
[13:33:13] <maxcnc> in the ini
[13:33:24] <maxcnc> so on mm its quitel ow
[13:34:42] <cncnoob1979> maxcnc yes but the number that my status page shows is in the trillions... 3.94 /s /s should be around 250ipm... im thining
[13:35:18] <Polymorphism> maxcnc, can I adjust the height of the spindle to overcome limited z travel for milling through the top of thicker boxes? http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-6040-DESKTOP-4AXIS-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-US-/221354177332?hash=item3389bcb334:g:yoIAAOSwm8VUyYZi
[13:35:39] <maxcnc> good configs show about 3times the velocity for accelereation cncnoob1979
[13:37:14] <cncnoob1979> just wanted to make sure Im not missing an ini setting or something similar. The machine is operational and runs well in axis. Not so much in Gmoccapy...
[13:37:21] <cncnoob1979> DEFAULT_VELOCITY = .10 MAX_VELOCITY = 3.92 this is my ini.
[13:37:46] <Polymorphism> http://www.yonggu-enclosure.com/uploads/yonggu-enclosure.com/images/20141230/1419914684247_540x359.jpg
[13:37:52] <Polymorphism> I need to put enclosures like that into the machine
[13:37:57] <Polymorphism> and mill through the top 2mm thick panel
[13:38:01] <Polymorphism> but the box is 3" thick
[13:38:04] <Polymorphism> and z travel is only 2.7"
[13:38:15] <Polymorphism> so I'm wondering if I can set the machine spindle height higher
[13:38:18] <Polymorphism> to overcome this limitation
[13:38:23] <Polymorphism> and mill the top of my boxes
[13:38:41] <evil_ren> you only need as much z travel for as deep as you want to cut
[13:38:48] <evil_ren> clearance isnt the same thing
[13:39:00] <Polymorphism> the much more expensive X6-2200l has 140MM of travel instead of generic 6040 65mm
[13:39:09] <Polymorphism> but it also shows you can adjust its spindle height
[13:39:10] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/media/wysiwyg/products/x6-2200usb/3-x6dimension-2.jpg
[13:39:13] <evil_ren> like, you can have a foot of clearance for some long as drill, and only half inch of travel for poking through sheets
[13:39:17] <Polymorphism> the generic ebay 6040, doesnt show that you can
[13:39:22] <cncnoob1979> maxcnc: DEFAULT_VELOCITY = .10 MAX_VELOCITY = 3.92 under TRAJ
[13:39:30] <Polymorphism> so evil_ren inm the ebayt link I sent
[13:39:38] <Polymorphism> compared to the last pdimension pic I just sent
[13:39:51] <Polymorphism> would you say the ebay 6040 can have the spindle height adjusted in the same way
[13:39:57] <Polymorphism> or is that unique to the x6 somehow
[13:40:12] <evil_ren> how much are those things?
[13:40:16] <Polymorphism> which one?
[13:40:21] <evil_ren> either
[13:40:25] <Polymorphism> about 1300 shipped for the ewbayt 6040
[13:40:31] <Polymorphism> but 2500 shipped for the x6
[13:40:41] <Polymorphism> thats why I'm trying to decide between them and if the ebay 6040 would work for my needs
[13:40:48] <Polymorphism> or if I need to spend more for the x6 unit
[13:40:55] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[13:40:57] <Polymorphism> x6 unit^
[13:40:58] <evil_ren> that includes step drivers?
[13:41:04] <Polymorphism> ready to run
[13:41:08] <Polymorphism> everything included
[13:42:44] <codepython777> Polymorphism: seriously you want to buy from a manufacturer that cant keep its webpages straight?
[13:43:01] <Polymorphism> codepython777, yes, no problem
[13:43:04] <codepython777> x6 looks trouble
[13:43:05] <Polymorphism> as long as the machine does what I need
[13:43:23] <Polymorphism> x6 also has some nice features though
[13:43:27] <Polymorphism> compared to the 6040 on eba
[13:43:31] <Polymorphism> from what I can tell
[13:43:33] <Polymorphism> they are this
[13:44:09] <Polymorphism> 48 volt, not sure on the 6040
[13:44:12] <Polymorphism> dust boot on the x6
[13:44:14] <codepython777> can you return it easily if its a mess?
[13:44:19] <Polymorphism> 140mm vs 65mm z travel
[13:44:25] <Polymorphism> hiwin HG20 linear rails
[13:44:31] <Polymorphism> and USB (some say thats a curse)
[13:44:46] <Polymorphism> its also 2500 shipped compared to 1300
[13:44:51] <Polymorphism> so 1200 USD more
[13:45:03] <Polymorphism> I will pay it if I have to, but I need to be sure its worth it
[13:45:07] <Polymorphism> oh it also has ahandheld remote
[13:45:15] <Polymorphism> and travel limit switches
[13:45:22] <Polymorphism> those are as many differences as I'm able to enumerate
[13:45:46] <Polymorphism> and its z spindle clearance is adjustable
[13:45:52] <Polymorphism> I can't tell if the 6040 is or not
[13:46:02] <Polymorphism> reallyt need someone else who understands cnc machineds better to help out
[13:47:05] <Polymorphism> cnc masters, where are you!?
[13:47:19] <XXCoder> by the power og graycnc!
[13:47:47] <malcom2073> Polymorphism: You don't need anyone who understands CNC
[13:47:51] <malcom2073> you need someonewho owns a 6040
[13:47:58] <malcom2073> there are literally hundreds of them on the cnczone forums :)
[13:48:04] <malcom2073> There's maybe a few here
[13:48:11] <Polymorphism> ive read through a few dozen pages of the threads there
[13:48:16] <Polymorphism> trying to find an answer to this issue now
[13:48:20] <malcom2073> Right, make a post asking the question
[13:48:21] <Polymorphism> but also, someone who knows cncs well enough
[13:48:31] <Polymorphism> should be able to look t those differences and judge if they are worth 1200 usd
[13:50:11] <Polymorphism> 24 vs 48v, dust shroud on z vs none, 2.2kw spindle vs 800w, hg20 linear rails(I've heard this doesnt matter), usb, limit switches, 140mm vs 65mm z trafel, handheld control
[13:50:23] <Polymorphism> it honeslty does sound almost worth the increased price
[13:50:27] <Polymorphism> I forgot the spindle
[13:50:35] <Polymorphism> although I heard I wont need more thna 800w...
[13:51:52] <Polymorphism> as I start my business though I need to consider other tools expenses etc
[13:52:23] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, pink_vampire , maxcnc, do you consider the differences worth 1200 usd more?
[13:53:32] * Polymorphism doesnt want to get ripped off
[14:04:25] <jdh> I'd go for teh 1.5kw or 2.2 over the .8
[14:07:38] <Polymorphism> what about rigidity rails structure between te two machines
[14:07:47] <Polymorphism> and the possibvle motor voltage difference
[14:08:11] <Polymorphism> I'm going to add up what the rails and spindle etc price difference might be
[14:08:13] <Polymorphism> roughly
[14:08:56] <Polymorphism> really it owuldnt be much
[14:09:06] <Polymorphism> a couple hiundred difference more in terms of parts
[14:11:17] <Polymorphism> the increased cost of the X6-2200l vs 6040 is the same price as the 6040 itself
[14:11:46] <Polymorphism> a better way to put it, I could buy two 6040s for hte price of one X6-2200L
[14:11:58] <Polymorphism> is it really worth it?
[14:12:05] <Polymorphism> I really need someone knowledgable to help with that final choice
[14:12:09] <Polymorphism> its one of these two machines
[14:12:11] <Polymorphism> =\
[14:14:03] <jdh> usb means Mach3 only, no linuxCNC
[14:14:57] <archivist> just throw any control, fit linuxcnc :)
[14:15:02] <jdh> I'll try not to laugh at you for using Mach3, but I probably won't succeed
[14:15:33] <Polymorphism> ignoring the mach3 only issue
[14:15:36] <Polymorphism> I could fix that
[14:15:43] <Polymorphism> modify for parallel port
[14:15:45] <Polymorphism> should be no problem
[14:15:47] <Polymorphism> mechanically
[14:15:50] <Polymorphism> is the machine worth twice the cost
[14:15:53] <Polymorphism> ?
[14:16:06] <Polymorphism> and somewhat electrcially, if the motors are 48v instead of 24v
[14:16:11] <Polymorphism> I'm guessing that means more torque
[14:16:18] <archivist> do you really expect us to check all website links to decide for you
[14:16:23] <Polymorphism> ?
[14:16:24] <robin_sz> mach is ... hmm
[14:16:41] <Polymorphism> archivist, I have it narrowed down to two choices and I listed the differences
[14:16:50] <Polymorphism> 24 vs 48v, dust shroud on z vs none, 2.2kw spindle vs 800w, hg20 linear rails(I've heard this doesnt matter), usb, limit switches, 140mm vs 65mm z trafel, handheld control
[14:16:58] <robin_sz> seriously, you have been asking this same question for 2 weeks now ... just buy the samn thing already
[14:17:00] <malcom2073> Tbh, neithre is worth it, cause I'd build my own for half the price or less :P
[14:17:01] <Polymorphism> 1200 usd vs 2500 usd
[14:17:07] <archivist> and tomorrow it will be a different two
[14:17:09] <Polymorphism> malcom2073,
[14:17:11] <Polymorphism> which!?
[14:17:13] <Polymorphism> buy which???
[14:17:16] <jdh> 48v is snappier than 24, the 800w spindle looks pretty lame
[14:17:17] <Polymorphism> they are totally different
[14:17:18] <archivist> you decide
[14:17:21] <Polymorphism> I can't
[14:17:23] <Polymorphism> its my first cnc
[14:17:25] <jdh> and since it isn't my money, go for teh expensive one
[14:17:26] <Polymorphism> and I HATE wasting money
[14:17:31] <Polymorphism> and making the wrong choice
[14:17:35] <Polymorphism> and dealing with all thayt comes with that
[14:17:41] <Polymorphism> I've set aside 3 days to decide
[14:17:43] <robin_sz> just buy there expensive one
[14:17:43] <archivist> dont get one then
[14:17:47] <Polymorphism> after this I'ts back to the grind
[14:18:00] <robin_sz> 3 days to make a simple decision?
[14:18:07] <Polymorphism> its not simple
[14:18:14] <robin_sz> do you fly planes?
[14:18:15] <Polymorphism> its the most expensive purchase of my life
[14:18:18] <Polymorphism> (non vehicular)
[14:18:31] <Polymorphism> and I've never used a cnc machine
[14:18:35] <Polymorphism> I wouldnt say this is simple at all
[14:18:38] <Polymorphism> simple to you perhaps
[14:18:40] <jdh> not married?
[14:18:43] <Polymorphism> no
[14:18:45] <robin_sz> well, we all had a discussion while you are out
[14:18:45] <archivist> I made my own
[14:18:54] <robin_sz> we all think you should get the expensive one
[14:19:22] <Polymorphism> =\
[14:19:27] <jdh> yep
[14:19:39] <jdh> or, get teh cheapest 3020 you can find
[14:19:47] <robin_sz> archivist, yep, theres now way I would buyone of those
[14:19:55] <archivist> or get the right tool for the job
[14:20:39] <archivist> convert a real machine dont buy junk
[14:20:54] <jdh> I bought one of those, it is great for what it is.
[14:21:03] <robin_sz> archivist, we already tried that one, but he is going to try and run it in his apartment!
[14:21:26] <archivist> I know, this story is on a tape loop
[14:21:30] <robin_sz> yep
[14:21:53] <robin_sz> ive only called in a few times in the last couple of weeks, but it was still running
[14:22:07] <Polymorphism> yea a full industrial machine wont work
[14:22:11] <Polymorphism> I have no where to put it
[14:22:22] <robin_sz> then buy one of those two you suggested
[14:22:33] <Polymorphism> I just wish Loetmichel2 would weigh in
[14:22:36] <Polymorphism> he uses 6040
[14:22:37] <jdh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/130999706774
[14:22:39] <jdh> buy that
[14:22:42] <archivist> I made a 5 axis mill, it is upstairs in the small bedroom
[14:22:48] <Polymorphism> he would know if the X6 is worth the premimum
[14:22:50] <robin_sz> and put up with whatever crappy shortcomings it has
[14:23:01] <Polymorphism> remember
[14:23:15] <Polymorphism> my max requirement is 3mm aluminum
[14:23:21] <Polymorphism> maybe 4
[14:23:29] <Polymorphism> usually just 2mm al
[14:23:41] <Polymorphism> I;m not milling for nasa
[14:23:54] <robin_sz> show me the cheap machine again
[14:24:13] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-6040-DESKTOP-4AXIS-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-US-/221354177332?hash=item3389bcb334:g:yoIAAOSwm8VUyYZi
[14:24:26] <Polymorphism> http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[14:24:31] <Polymorphism> and there is expensive
[14:24:49] <robin_sz> the first one looks like $1400 of junk ...
[14:24:55] <Polymorphism> $1300 usd shipped, vs $2500 usd shipped
[14:25:42] <robin_sz> where as the second looks like $2500 of junk
[14:25:54] <Polymorphism> ??
[14:26:04] <Polymorphism> I'm cutting 2 millimeter thick aluminum!
[14:26:15] <Polymorphism> is it really thaty bad of a macine?
[14:26:20] <Polymorphism> that would put me back to square one
[14:26:39] <robin_sz> i wold not buy either as they look like junk, butm there you go
[14:26:57] <Polymorphism> do you have an alternative?
[14:26:59] <Polymorphism> for similar price?
[14:27:03] <Polymorphism> either kit or premade
[14:27:08] <Polymorphism> DIY would just take me too long from scratch
[14:27:14] <robin_sz> no
[14:28:52] <robin_sz> isnt this the same machine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-4-AXIS-Router-Engraver-Engraving-Drilling-Milling-Machine-Desktop-CNC3040T-/141586082397?hash=item20f7302a5d:g:avAAAOSwBLlU8RbT
[14:29:14] <Polymorphism> thats 3040
[14:29:21] <Polymorphism> smaller machine and I read its not made the same quality
[14:29:22] <Polymorphism> less rigid
[14:29:26] <Polymorphism> also
[14:29:28] <Polymorphism> 200w dc spindle
[14:29:29] <Polymorphism> its junk
[14:30:27] <Polymorphism> would be fine for pcbs but I need to cut the thin al as well
[14:31:00] <robin_sz> what size cutter are you planning to use?
[14:31:00] <Polymorphism> thats also a crap deal, you can get those with ball scewws 800w liquid cooled spoindle for 800 shipped
[14:31:04] <Polymorphism> I'm not sure yet
[14:31:07] <Polymorphism> I'm new to this stuff
[14:31:14] <Polymorphism> 1 sec I'll show what i want to do with the machine
[14:31:30] <robin_sz> so how do you know what size spindle you need?
[14:31:43] <Polymorphism> http://www.8020cnc.com/images/alu_engrave1_large.jpg
[14:31:51] <Polymorphism> I only know the 200w is junk
[14:31:53] <Polymorphism> I've read a LOT
[14:31:57] <Polymorphism> I know 800w is plenty for nme
[14:31:59] <Polymorphism> according ot Loetmichel2
[14:32:05] <Polymorphism> he seems to know whats up
[14:32:11] <Polymorphism> does beautiful work wiht a 6040 in al
[14:32:34] <robin_sz> you want to do panels like that?
[14:32:45] <Polymorphism> http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e130/suggy44/big_muff_front.jpg
[14:32:47] <Polymorphism> yes
[14:32:52] <Polymorphism> and also stuff like that 2nd link
[14:33:06] <robin_sz> but thats doen with an engraver dude
[14:33:30] <Polymorphism> the engraving is one tool
[14:33:33] <Polymorphism> the holes are another
[14:33:36] <Polymorphism> same machine did that panel
[14:33:57] <robin_sz> its very hard to do without a floating nose coneengraver
[14:34:22] <robin_sz> you are interested in making audio stuff and effects pedals?
[14:34:41] <Polymorphism> well for hobby yes, for business other devices
[14:35:00] <robin_sz> you know what I make on mine?
[14:35:09] <Polymorphism> what
[14:35:43] <robin_sz> http://usa.matrixamplification.com/
[14:36:10] <Polymorphism> aha !
[14:36:12] <Polymorphism> nice =D
[14:36:25] <robin_sz> a few minor bands use our gear
[14:36:40] <Polymorphism> thats cool
[14:36:47] <Polymorphism> similar to some of the stuff I want to do with the machine
[14:36:54] <Polymorphism> enclosure work
[14:36:55] <robin_sz> remember a band called Europe?
[14:37:01] <Polymorphism> of course
[14:37:11] <robin_sz> Billy Idol?
[14:37:14] <Polymorphism> yes
[14:37:21] <robin_sz> Metallica, Megadeth ...
[14:37:23] <robin_sz> etc etc
[14:37:50] <Polymorphism> yes
[14:37:53] <Polymorphism> =D
[14:38:08] <robin_sz> but we build a lot of bigger amps as well, up to 10kw
[14:38:20] <robin_sz> so we build "a few" cases ...
[14:39:10] <robin_sz> we used to engrave, then we screen print
[14:39:21] <robin_sz> now we anodize and laser engrave
[14:40:15] <Polymorphism> some nice looking amps there!
[14:40:31] <Polymorphism> my plan is to engrave over dyed anodized al
[14:40:36] <Polymorphism> and bring out the silver underneath as lettering
[14:40:45] <Polymorphism> like the picture I sent you
[14:40:54] <Polymorphism> of the mic preamp
[14:41:00] <robin_sz> yep, thats what we do
[14:41:17] <robin_sz> it doesnt touch the metal, just evaporates the dye
[14:41:23] <robin_sz> http://pa.matrixamplification.com/mf-series/xt7000mf.html
[14:41:29] <robin_sz> bigger amp
[14:41:54] <robin_sz> we run 2 lasers pretty much full time
[14:42:24] <robin_sz> both are servo machines, about 60W
[14:42:38] <robin_sz> but I have a 10W stepper machine that also does it perfectly
[14:42:41] <jdh> you can fit tubes in there?
[14:42:54] <robin_sz> jdh, in the amps?
[14:42:59] <jdh> yeah
[14:43:26] <robin_sz> not in the 1U/2U rack amps, they are basically flat PA amps, we sell to guys ining DSP amp modelling gear
[14:44:07] <robin_sz> jdh: this is our tube amp http://usa.matrixamplification.com/guitar-amps/vb800.html
[14:44:09] <jdh> how can you accurately replay my 12kbs mp3's without tubes
[14:44:31] <Polymorphism> thats the one I had my eye on
[14:44:40] <Polymorphism> but my 59 bassman suits me fine for now
[14:44:52] <robin_sz> its a bit lighter ;)
[14:45:01] <Polymorphism> xD
[14:45:10] <jdh> just kidding of course, there is a local place that does tube amps
[14:45:15] <Polymorphism> so the top is laser engraved?
[14:45:20] <Polymorphism> is the back silkscreen
[14:45:31] <Polymorphism> and front
[14:45:41] <robin_sz> the VB800? silk
[14:45:44] <robin_sz> top laser
[14:45:48] <Polymorphism> love the tube window
[14:46:02] <robin_sz> yeah, we have ornge LEDs in there too
[14:46:17] <robin_sz> and a bit of mirror ally behind the tubes
[14:47:05] <robin_sz> jdh, and the punters are so pilled and drunk, you could play through wet socks and they would not notice any change in quality
[14:50:58] <Sync> yeah idk what the deal with all the linear amps is nowadays
[14:51:10] <Sync> class d blows them out of the water
[14:51:23] <archivist> dont want linear they want toooobs and distortion
[14:54:30] <robin_sz> lol, class D :)
[14:55:00] <robin_sz> ive yet to hear a good sounding class D
[14:55:11] <robin_sz> not saying it cant be done
[14:55:16] <robin_sz> ive just not heard one
[14:55:39] <Sync> I never noticed a difference
[14:55:48] <robin_sz> seriously?
[14:55:48] <Polymorphism> http://www.bobsavage.net/otherjunk/lollygagger/lollygagger-wood-enclosures-2.jpg
[14:55:50] <Sync> I also could not measure a difference
[14:56:31] <robin_sz> i can quite easily hear the difference
[14:56:34] <Polymorphism> I want to make pedal enclosures like those with the 6040
[14:57:04] <robin_sz> its not even a small difference
[14:57:51] <robin_sz> they are getting better though, and we will probably do a bass amp in class D
[14:58:24] <robin_sz> but I have het to hear one that can do a good job on mids/tops
[14:59:04] <robin_sz> all ours are class A/B
[14:59:25] <Polymorphism> robin_sz, in all seriousness, between those two machines, if you had to pick one and money was a concern. Would you consider the X6-2200l worth double the 6040?
[14:59:59] <Sync> well, I measured the transfer functions of the amps and then the response from the speakers with a calibrated microphone
[15:00:14] <Polymorphism> some things cant be measured sync
[15:00:15] <archivist> Polymorphism, you just pointed at an item too deep for half the stuff you are looking at
[15:00:18] <Sync> and in all seriousness, I could not see a difference
[15:00:44] <evil_ren> its not FR or even THD
[15:00:54] <Polymorphism> archivist, you don't think tose are under 2.7" DOC?
[15:01:14] <evil_ren> you can hear IMD
[15:01:15] <archivist> easy to measure harmonics and distortion with the correct tools
[15:01:36] <evil_ren> correct tools mean you can do a measurement in a few seconds
[15:01:39] <robin_sz> Sync, but you can easily hear things that are very hard to measure
[15:01:44] <evil_ren> correct methods require a fuckton of measurements
[15:02:02] <robin_sz> Sync, have you done the Philips listening tests?
[15:02:11] <archivist> I do have some electronics gear :)
[15:02:12] <evil_ren> to characterize compression, distortion at diff drive levels, for acoustic systems, you repeat for polar patterns
[15:02:32] <evil_ren> single measurements dont say much
[15:02:36] <evil_ren> clouds of measurement data can
[15:02:46] <Polymorphism> http://www.guitarampboard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14209
[15:02:49] <Polymorphism> I really want to make those
[15:03:23] <robin_sz> Sync, https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/challenge.html
[15:03:48] <robin_sz> up to silver is easy, gold requires some careful listening, but its not hard
[15:04:06] <CaptHindsight> petefromtn closed on his old house yesterday
[15:04:17] <CaptHindsight> looks like he's on the move
[15:06:36] <Polymorphism> hmm
[15:07:07] <CaptHindsight> granite surface plate that size <$100, mount an iron t-slot table to that
[15:07:43] <CaptHindsight> epoxy granite gantry <$100
[15:08:31] <CaptHindsight> the tough part will be idiot proofing the alignment
[15:09:14] <CaptHindsight> unless you sell people precast granite parts
[15:09:28] <CaptHindsight> then they still need to mount the linear bearings
[15:09:42] <Polymorphism> I see
[15:10:36] <CaptHindsight> unless you sell them the granite base with the bearings already mounted
[15:10:54] <CaptHindsight> same for the gantry
[15:11:09] <bobo__> will or would like to hear Pete comment about the restructions of Tenn vers Fla after he is out of Tenn
[15:11:27] <Sync> robin_sz: yeah I did that before
[15:11:41] <CaptHindsight> they might still screw up the final assembly unless there are guide pins in all the parts
[15:14:10] <Polymorphism> http://goo.gl/9IBD5K http://goo.gl/z49s5p http://goo.gl/62E6K8 http://goo.gl/nQk8Rz
[15:14:16] <Polymorphism> preparing some links to make this easier
[15:14:28] <Polymorphism> thats a selection of example work I would like to do with the machine
[15:14:53] <Sync> although that pos site does not work now
[16:25:49] <Polymorphism> ok everyone
[16:25:54] <Polymorphism> I spent a lot of time and made a cnczone post!
[16:25:57] <Polymorphism> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/303334-cnc.html#post1858310
[16:26:05] <jdh> less posting, more buying
[16:26:13] <Polymorphism> hopefully this will help me finalize my decision
[16:26:15] <Polymorphism> I spent a lot of time on it
[16:26:21] <jdh> you made the same post as 20 other people did. just read theirs
[16:26:23] <Polymorphism> I hope it will help other people too
[16:26:24] <Polymorphism> in the future
[16:26:28] <Polymorphism> no I didnt don't be so rude
[16:26:42] <Polymorphism> and I've read all of the posts
[16:26:48] <Polymorphism> the major ones
[16:27:50] <Polymorphism> I think there are a lot of people looking for the same machine I am
[16:27:53] <Polymorphism> with a similar budget
[16:27:59] <jdh> I was
[16:28:15] <Polymorphism> hopefully this will clear things up, no matter what the outcome is or what machine or route they end up advising
[16:34:47] <jdh> Polytheism: http://tinyurl.com/gm4lomw mine from omiowtftheyarenow
[16:36:28] <Polymorphism> let me take a look
[16:38:26] <Polymorphism> looks pretty nice to me
[16:38:30] <Polymorphism> do you like it?
[16:38:39] <Polymorphism> those arent the HG20 linear rails are they
[16:38:55] <jdh> they are supported round linear rails
[16:40:35] <Polymorphism> you purchased it back when they called it the 6040?"
[16:40:42] <Polymorphism> I wonder how it differs
[16:40:46] <Polymorphism> I'm guessing the price has increased
[16:40:54] <jdh> yeah, they went all USB shortly after I bought it
[16:41:26] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/jb3lwg7 I think I made that with it
[16:41:55] <Polymorphism> very nice
[16:42:09] <Polymorphism> do you have more photos of things youve made with the machine?
[16:42:36] <Polymorphism> is yours 800w or 2.2kw spindle
[16:42:44] <jdh> 1.5kw
[16:45:04] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/hjmogud the plastic one was on the router
[16:47:31] <enleth> eh, there seem to be no small chinese lathes with separate lead screw and power feed
[16:47:32] <jdh> never tried any metal with it. I have a mill
[16:47:58] <enleth> all sub-300kg lathes from china have a single screw, which sucks
[16:48:17] <enleth> all lathes that have separate power feed are 350kg+
[16:48:23] <Polymorphism> looks like ice quality
[16:48:24] <Polymorphism> n
[16:48:33] <Polymorphism> it could do that al part as well I think
[16:48:44] <jdh> slowly
[16:48:47] <Polymorphism> and certainly my 2mm al plate
[16:48:54] <jdh> engraving would be no problem
[16:49:03] <Polymorphism> I need to cut as well
[16:49:17] <Polymorphism> like this http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Pk0AAOSwHgVW77ne/s-l300.jpg
[16:49:44] <jdh> actually I have cut some Al by accident, with a 90 degree engraving bit
[16:50:07] <Polymorphism> how did it cut
[16:50:28] <jdh> fine, it was 0.125" sheet. had a 45 chamfer.
[16:50:42] <jdh> wasn't supposed to cut, I rushed through the cam
[16:50:58] <Polymorphism> http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/947/552/010/1010552947_733.jpg
[16:51:01] <Polymorphism> this is what I need to cut
[16:51:03] <Polymorphism> the top
[16:51:58] <Polymorphism> oh
[16:52:07] <Polymorphism> so it cut .125" al sheet no problem
[16:52:13] <jdh> should be fine. Avoid chinese end mills
[16:52:26] <jdh> with a carbide engraving cutter
[16:53:58] <Polymorphism> ok
[16:54:02] <jdh> looks like you could swap the USB one to p-port with just a cheap breakout board
[16:54:32] <jdh> and I got a free cutlery set with mine.
[16:55:46] <Polymorphism> lol
[16:55:47] <Polymorphism> I was going to ask
[16:56:15] <Polymorphism> 45 chamfer sounds nice...
[16:57:10] <Polymorphism> so I could cut my own enclosures completely from the sheet
[16:57:15] <Polymorphism> and put a nice fillet on the edge?
[16:57:23] <Polymorphism> on the panels outer edge
[16:58:01] <Polymorphism> I need to get a set of starting tools
[16:58:33] <jthornton> one stump out the rest to go
[16:58:55] <Polymorphism> nicely done
[16:59:05] <Tom_itx> are you stumped?
[16:59:05] <jdh> jt: outsource
[16:59:28] <jdh> jt: I have a plc question for you.
[17:00:29] <jdh> I inherited a system. lots of station sequencers, all have an anti-recycle bit to keep the sequencers from recycling between operations. All are coils that latch themselves in.
[17:01:02] <jdh> then there is one hideous rung that does a reset on the coils. This just bothers me.
[17:02:28] <JT-Shop> yea that was a big one for sure, had to dig a hole the size of a VW lol
[17:02:48] <jdh> but, it has been working fine for years. Generates warnings for coil conflicts for each one, which also bothers me.
[17:03:47] <JT-Shop> I almost never use a latch and unlatch
[17:04:27] <jdh> I don't mind that. I mind that they are coils, and then also have resets
[17:04:27] <JT-Shop> or are you talking about a seal in circuit
[17:04:30] <jdh> yeah
[17:05:01] <jdh> it seals itself in after after the sequencer completes
[17:23:47] <djdelorie> ah, the way of the toolsmith... spent 3 hours machining an adapter for my floor jack to save 15 minutes using the manual jack
[17:24:35] <Deejay> :D
[17:24:43] <Deejay> because you can!
[17:30:29] <Deejay> gn8
[17:30:58] <bobo__> nite
[18:17:20] <pink_vampire2> hi
[18:21:08] <Polymorphism> http://www.chinacnczone.com/en/cnc-6040z-new-2200w-spindle-mini-benchtop-cnc-router-machine-for-engraving-milling-drilling_l66_p127.html
[18:21:10] <Polymorphism> hi pink_vampire
[18:23:03] <pink_vampire2> hi Polymorphism
[18:23:15] <pink_vampire2> did you make an order?
[18:24:00] <Polymorphism> not yet =(
[18:24:23] <pink_vampire2> do you want to talk about that?
[18:24:57] <malcom2073> dooo eeetttttt
[18:25:00] <Polymorphism> yes
[18:25:05] <Polymorphism> I made this post
[18:25:05] <Polymorphism> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/303334-cnc.html
[18:25:35] <Polymorphism> it summarizes my research, my needs for hte machine, my background, and my current 3 questions holding me back from ordering
[18:26:44] <malcom2073> Nice
[18:27:56] <pink_vampire2> what is hte?
[18:28:09] <Tom_itx> typo irc speak
[18:28:39] <Tom_itx> as long as all the letters are there it's not a typo
[18:28:46] <Tom_itx> arrange them how you will
[18:29:11] <Polymorphism> the*
[18:29:37] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: do you know that you can make it from 80/20
[18:29:47] <Polymorphism> how long and how much?
[18:30:26] <Polymorphism> I'm worried it might take a year or more
[18:30:28] <pink_vampire2> for that you only need a miter saw
[18:30:30] <Polymorphism> or even 6 months
[18:30:38] <pink_vampire2> no..
[18:30:42] <Polymorphism> for what?
[18:30:45] <Polymorphism> oh I see
[18:30:47] <Polymorphism> to make the cnc
[18:30:51] <pink_vampire2> you can finish it very fast
[18:30:53] <Polymorphism> only a miter saw?
[18:31:21] <Polymorphism> and common hand tools
[18:31:23] <pink_vampire2> yes to cut the aluminum extensions
[18:31:24] <Polymorphism> how fast would you say?>
[18:31:27] <Tom_itx> you build your first one so you can build your next one bigger and better
[18:31:44] <Polymorphism> I want to build my 2nd machine the first time
[18:32:03] <Polymorphism> if I do build at all
[18:32:20] <pink_vampire2> you need to get a ballscrew that come with fittings.
[18:33:00] <Polymorphism> do you know roughyl the total cost
[18:33:03] <pink_vampire2> then you use them as a guide for your base
[18:33:05] <Polymorphism> to build s 24x24" cnc
[18:33:09] <Polymorphism> capable of my needs
[18:33:32] <Polymorphism> and do you mean a weekend? or a month
[18:33:33] <Polymorphism> to build
[18:33:38] <Tom_itx> 1850.00
[18:33:49] <Polymorphism> are you just making that up?
[18:33:53] <Polymorphism> or did you build a similar machine
[18:34:02] <pink_vampire2> http://www.8020cnc.com/build%20CNC%20machine
[18:34:03] <Polymorphism> they want 9000 dollars
[18:34:07] <Polymorphism> for the 2'x4' kit
[18:34:11] <pink_vampire2> who??
[18:34:59] <Polymorphism> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/standard-cnc-machine-kits-c-46_29.html
[18:35:00] <Polymorphism> them
[18:36:05] <Polymorphism> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/4-axis-digital-plug-and-play-nema-34-system-p-132.html
[18:36:08] <pink_vampire2> look. all you need is GOOD SOLID BASE
[18:36:10] <Polymorphism> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/4-axis-diy-nema-34-electronics-kit-p-123.html
[18:36:14] <Polymorphism> then need spindle still
[18:36:21] <Polymorphism> 10k
[18:36:24] <Polymorphism> usd
[18:36:33] <Polymorphism> plus hours to build
[18:36:36] <Polymorphism> =\
[18:36:37] <pink_vampire2> it's can be very thick wood, metal plate, granit. etc..
[18:37:12] <Tom_itx> for that kind of money you can find a real mill with a bad control and convert it likely for less
[18:37:17] <pink_vampire2> then you put 2 H rails on the side and mount the ball screw.
[18:37:37] <pink_vampire2> Tom_itx: but he want it in 3K total.
[18:37:41] <Loetmichel2> *hehe, the old (22y) BMW316ti that could... drove my beater car to my sister and back. 457km. average 102kmh. 8.2 liters/100km.. not bad for such an old car. And no oil leakage. But: had to refill the radiator twice with 2.5liters of water. and it doesent like Truck ruts at all... starts swerving like crazy at 180kmh (NOT fun!) but in sum its sellable with a good concience after some little
[18:37:41] <Loetmichel2> repairs ;)
[18:38:01] <Polymorphism> Tom_itx, exactly
[18:38:19] <Polymorphism> sell it whilte you csn!
[18:38:41] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, I made a post. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/303334-cnc.html
[18:38:56] <Polymorphism> if you have time, I need some help
[18:38:59] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: for what you need even machine made out of wood work fine.
[18:39:07] <Polymorphism> a machine made out of wood??
[18:39:13] <pink_vampire2> yes.
[18:39:20] <Tom_itx> get a slab of granite from the undertaker and mount some rails on it and you will have a more stable base to start with
[18:39:32] <Polymorphism> wtf?
[18:39:35] <Polymorphism> are you serious
[18:39:40] <Tom_itx> i'm not making this shit up
[18:39:41] <Polymorphism> a slab of granite from the undertaker
[18:39:43] <pink_vampire2> he right.
[18:39:54] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: look
[18:39:55] <Polymorphism> how do I drill and tap holes in it
[18:39:59] <Polymorphism> and is it squared
[18:40:12] <Tom_itx> more square than your other one ever would be
[18:40:36] <Tom_itx> or mold one with epoxy granite
[18:40:50] <Polymorphism> I';m not sure abvout any of this
[18:40:59] <Tom_itx> more to search
[18:41:05] <pink_vampire2> http://www.grizzly.com/products/18-x-24-x-3-Granite-Surface-Plate-No-Ledge/G9654
[18:41:34] <pink_vampire2> get something like that for the base of the machine.
[18:41:36] <Tom_itx> grave stones aren't certified but are nearly as flat
[18:41:45] <Tom_itx> and you can shim the rails
[18:42:11] <pink_vampire2> for 60$..
[18:42:29] <Polymorphism> heavy wow
[18:42:31] <Polymorphism> but maybe
[18:42:35] <Polymorphism> hopw do I drill and tap the holes
[18:42:39] <Polymorphism> and how do I square the rails
[18:42:50] <Polymorphism> after that it doesnt soujnd to hard actually...
[18:42:50] <Tom_itx> or if you want a bigger base get a slab for a granite counter top but those will likely cost more and are thinner
[18:42:56] <Polymorphism> that seems like the hardest part
[18:43:03] <pink_vampire2> drill and epoxy the screws.
[18:43:14] <Sync> you glue in inserts
[18:43:20] <Tom_itx> carbide might cut it but diamond would for sure
[18:43:26] <Polymorphism> hmm
[18:43:31] <Sync> but in all reality, just buy a 6040 first
[18:43:36] <Polymorphism> really?
[18:43:39] <Polymorphism> you had me thinking
[18:43:45] <Polymorphism> I like to diy
[18:43:49] <Tom_itx> Sync you didn't get it... he want's his 2nd first
[18:43:53] <Polymorphism> first use of the cnc will be labeling 12 DIY guitar pedals
[18:44:22] <Polymorphism> can the 6040 not be my 2nd?
[18:44:28] <Polymorphism> or the x6
[18:44:33] <Tom_itx> it's not my money
[18:44:33] <Polymorphism> or some other prebuilt
[18:44:38] <Tom_itx> spend it as you will
[18:44:39] <Polymorphism> although it sounds less expensive to DIY
[18:44:47] <Polymorphism> 100 for the slab
[18:45:08] <Polymorphism> is there a complete set of parts
[18:45:10] <Polymorphism> I can just buy
[18:45:16] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: you just need to make the bridge, then you use it to make sure that the rails are parallel
[18:45:17] <Polymorphism> with ball screws, all the best rails, whatever I need
[18:45:26] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/psu_index.php
[18:45:30] <Tom_itx> there's the control for mine
[18:45:41] <Tom_itx> probably 70% surplus parts
[18:45:50] <Loetmichel2> Polymorphism: i just cam back from nearly 5 hours of driving... gimme a moment to settle in ;)
[18:45:53] <Tom_itx> geckos and mesa boards are new
[18:46:02] <Tom_itx> the rest i made or got surplus
[18:46:30] <Polymorphism> that looks nice
[18:46:35] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, ok =D
[18:46:47] <Tom_itx> that's the case i got off ebay for $25
[18:47:05] <Polymorphism> so the cost is less
[18:47:10] <Polymorphism> how long did it take you to build?
[18:47:17] <Polymorphism> do you have sample work pics
[18:47:19] <Polymorphism> youve cut with it
[18:47:20] <Tom_itx> no idea, i wasn't in a hurry
[18:47:25] <Polymorphism> years? months?
[18:47:28] <Tom_itx> and had limited time to work on it
[18:47:33] <Tom_itx> months
[18:47:55] <Polymorphism> If there were a kit and clear plans
[18:48:01] <Polymorphism> I might be more inclined to diy
[18:48:04] <Tom_itx> i had no kit or plans
[18:48:17] <Tom_itx> i had a direction
[18:48:21] <Tom_itx> and headed that way
[18:49:02] <Polymorphism> http://www.grizzly.com/products/24-x-24-x-3-Granite-Surface-Plate-No-Ledge/G9656?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_medium=link&utm_source=direct
[18:49:27] <Polymorphism> I couldnt hope to move this thing though
[18:49:36] <Tom_itx> the plate will need to be bigger than the travel you want
[18:49:55] <Tom_itx> that means it will be more stable when you mill something
[18:50:00] <pink_vampire2> and you need solid bridge.
[18:50:48] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Herman-Granite-Surface-PLate-30-x-30-w-Stand-W-098-/380342335874
[18:51:15] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: look very nice.
[18:52:08] <Tom_itx> your undertaker would be a more local source
[18:52:10] <pink_vampire2> now you need to get a ball screw like this one
[18:52:12] <pink_vampire2> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ball-Screw-1605-L500mm-Ballnut-Couplers-2-Supporting-Seat-for-CNC-Machine-/221969458155?hash=item33ae6923eb:g:cykAAOSwYaFWb93r
[18:52:58] <pink_vampire2> you mount the "Supporting Seat" to the base.
[18:53:08] <Loetmichel2> a tombstone is about a decade less flat. but thats not a problem if you want to use it as a machine base
[18:54:26] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: if you get the ballscrew with the supports it's very easy to make the machine.
[18:55:03] <Polymorphism> what else would I need byeond that
[18:55:06] <pink_vampire2> even thick wood/mdf will work just fine,
[18:55:15] <Polymorphism> ofc motors, and spindle, and controller
[18:55:24] <pink_vampire2> to make the bridge
[18:55:26] <Tom_itx> figure out what you want for a table
[18:55:36] <Tom_itx> linear slides etc
[18:56:41] <pink_vampire2> for 24" by 24" yo need 2 motors for driving the bridge.
[18:58:10] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ypL_aeryw&feature=player_embedded
[18:58:14] <Polymorphism> my total cost seems like it would be 500-1000
[18:59:03] <pink_vampire2> just motors / drivers / encoders is 950$
[18:59:18] <Polymorphism> what am I looking at for total cost here?
[18:59:22] <Polymorphism> for a 24"x24"
[18:59:24] <Polymorphism> work area
[18:59:25] <Loetmichel2> pink_vampire: the good neutrik XLR... and then the insulation stripped behind the grip. thats not very professional...
[19:00:01] <pink_vampire2> Loetmichel2: did you saw the machine?
[19:00:14] <Loetmichel2> not yet
[19:00:45] <pink_vampire2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQPpjLAEx1U
[19:00:58] <pink_vampire2> king size bed
[19:01:52] <Loetmichel2> niiice size... but that soldering "station" is a joke.
[19:02:16] <Loetmichel2> ite even worse than a good unregulated soldering iron
[19:02:51] <pink_vampire2> give me space for the machine I will give you soldering station.
[19:04:05] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: ?
[19:04:38] <Polymorphism> let me see
[19:05:28] <Loetmichel2> pink_vampire: thats an awful lot of ball bearings
[19:05:57] <Polymorphism> I cant make an epic panel like that
[19:05:59] <Polymorphism> without cnc
[19:07:41] <pink_vampire2> it's very simple to make a 3 axis cnc.
[19:08:14] <Loetmichel2> i used a few less ball bearings on my cheap "linear rails"
[19:08:52] <Loetmichel2> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8875
[19:09:05] <Loetmichel2> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8884
[19:09:22] <Loetmichel2> only 8 per sled.
[19:09:34] <pink_vampire2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CaSJB83hY4
[19:09:36] <pink_vampire2> look
[19:09:44] <Loetmichel2> but two 16mm ground shafts as ways
[19:11:02] <Polymorphism> where is the machine pink_vampire
[19:11:03] <pink_vampire2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywr31rX9VUo
[19:11:09] <Loetmichel2> wouldnt do that again tho
[19:11:37] <Loetmichel2> the sBR20 from china are that cheap that its simply not useful to make your own rails
[19:12:14] <pink_vampire2> http://www.davegardner.org/CNC.html
[19:12:40] <pink_vampire2> look down.
[19:12:51] <pink_vampire2> he make a list.
[19:14:10] <pink_vampire2> https://www.finelineautomation.com/
[19:14:17] <Polymorphism> why doesnt he use a real spindle
[19:15:12] <pink_vampire2> trimer also very good
[19:16:01] <pink_vampire2> but noisy and not accurate as spindle.
[19:16:10] <pink_vampire2> for your needs it's fine.
[19:17:04] <pink_vampire2> even dremel will work fine for short time.
[19:17:33] <Loetmichel2> pink_vampire: dremel si bad because of the long shaft and the far back bearing
[19:17:43] <Loetmichel2> better ise a Proxxon FBS230
[19:17:53] <Loetmichel2> or Proxxon IB/e
[19:18:08] <Loetmichel2> for a small size "spindle"
[19:18:47] <pink_vampire2> he just want to make a hole in a box.
[19:19:15] <pink_vampire2> it's going to be cover anyway..
[19:19:51] <Loetmichel2> one of my early machines used a fake dremel
[19:19:54] <Polymorphism> that build cost him more than 3000
[19:20:15] <Loetmichel2> had to mount a thrid bearing before i could avould breaking mill bits all the time
[19:20:21] <pink_vampire2> clean cut and stuff like that it's not important.
[19:20:26] <Polymorphism> thats not true
[19:20:29] <Polymorphism> I want clean cuts
[19:20:34] <Polymorphism> I might want to 3d mill a guitar with it
[19:20:38] <Loetmichel2> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3077&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[19:20:39] <Polymorphism> or engrave enclosures
[19:20:40] <Polymorphism> like I showed
[19:21:27] <pink_vampire2> it will be fine.
[19:21:33] <Loetmichel2> the part of the "dremel" witht e thread was cut off and instead there was bearing mounted.
[19:21:46] <Polymorphism> http://goo.gl/6V1Bvq http://goo.gl/9IBD5K http://goo.gl/nQk8Rz
[19:21:46] <pink_vampire2> not a miror finish but just fine.
[19:21:51] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire,
[19:21:55] <Polymorphism> thats what I need the machine to do
[19:22:51] <pink_vampire2> HF 10$ dremel like will do that.
[19:23:55] <pink_vampire2> nema 17 steppers with 1/4" screws and copling nut
[19:23:55] <Polymorphism> yes
[19:23:59] <Polymorphism> attached to a 3000 dollar machine
[19:24:02] <Polymorphism> =\
[19:24:13] <pink_vampire2> no
[19:24:17] <Polymorphism> the link you sent
[19:24:19] <Polymorphism> fineline
[19:24:22] <Polymorphism> the kits
[19:24:29] <Polymorphism> my total cost 4000 usd for 2'x4' =\
[19:24:33] <pink_vampire2> it's suuuper lite cut.
[19:25:16] <pink_vampire2> for the panel you can use drag dimond
[19:26:41] <pink_vampire2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPKjFHkreLA
[19:27:46] <Polymorphism> that is nice
[19:29:35] <pink_vampire2> what is the product that you make?
[19:30:02] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: ^
[19:32:18] <Polymorphism> custom specialized
[19:32:24] <Polymorphism> nothing for production yet
[19:32:36] <Polymorphism> this diamond drag bit
[19:32:38] <Polymorphism> I like this a lot
[19:32:44] <Polymorphism> no matter hwich machine I get
[19:32:48] <Polymorphism> I will use this for my lettering!!!
[19:32:53] <Polymorphism> amaxing
[19:33:23] <pink_vampire2> you have to use servos with that.
[19:33:25] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMe471YC57s&t=4m15s
[19:33:55] <pink_vampire2> it's spring loaded shank with dimond tip
[19:34:18] <Polymorphism> why would I need servos
[19:34:42] <Polymorphism> http://www.widgetworksunlimited.com/CNC_Diamond_Drag_Engraving_Bit_p/cnc-dmnd_engrv-500.htm
[19:34:48] <Polymorphism> I want to diamond engrave tile
[19:35:22] <pink_vampire2> you don't have to.. but stepper can loose steps
[19:35:36] <Loetmichel2> i would go mad if my machine would move that slow ;)
[19:36:15] <Loetmichel2> pink_vampire: steppers only lose steps if underrated.
[19:36:39] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, I think you have the answer to my ultimate question
[19:36:40] <Polymorphism> =D
[19:36:56] <pink_vampire2> Loetmichel2: how you can press the dimond drag with stepper???
[19:37:17] <Polymorphism> with z axis?
[19:37:59] <Loetmichel2> same as with a servo actuated: with a springloaded diamond ORW relying on the gantry to provide "spring"
[19:38:00] <Loetmichel2> :-)
[19:38:04] <pink_vampire2> I can press almost half a ton with the Z axis.
[19:39:06] <Loetmichel2> my CNC at home can press down with about 200kg... which is VERY ok for a selfbuild machine that has only 1A steppers...
[19:39:07] <Loetmichel2> ;-)
[19:39:47] <Loetmichel2> you dont need that much pressure for a drag diamond tho
[19:39:47] <Polymorphism> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmNuG15cqNw&t=0m49s
[19:39:51] <pink_vampire2> one time i rune a gcode without turn on the spindle, and it push the endmill through the material
[19:39:57] <Loetmichel2> about 10kg is totally sufficient
[19:40:09] <Polymorphism> can the 6040 do that?
[19:40:13] <Polymorphism> with 4th axis
[19:40:13] <pink_vampire2> no
[19:40:34] <Loetmichel2> Polymorphism: it can
[19:40:39] <pink_vampire2> it's a full granit machnie and it cost about 7k
[19:40:52] <Loetmichel2> but not that precise
[19:41:03] <Loetmichel2> or you need more time
[19:41:24] <Polymorphism> Loetmichel2, http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-CNC-Router-Engraver-Milling-Machine-Engraving-Drilling-4-Axis-6040-Desktop-/291054639648 http://www.omiocnc.com/x6-2200l-3a/
[19:41:27] <Polymorphism> I noticed something major
[19:41:31] <Polymorphism> this is my biggest problem
[19:41:41] <Polymorphism> the ebay one, 2.7" z travel
[19:42:13] <Loetmichel2> Polymorphism: 4th axis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDcCyF_gVoY
[19:43:06] <Loetmichel2> yeah, so?
[19:43:22] <Loetmichel2> my does a har short of 100mm
[19:43:27] <Loetmichel2> its enough tho
[19:43:30] <Loetmichel2> hair
[19:46:04] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: I think each of us will donate you a machining part for you cnc..
[19:47:01] <pink_vampire2> Loetmichel2: he is gone.
[19:47:38] <djdelorie> he is gone *for now*
[19:48:14] <pink_vampire2> I was the same..
[19:49:25] <djdelorie> reading back.... I'm pretty sure my z-axis can break my machine if it wanted to
[19:49:52] <djdelorie> nema 34 servo with a 2:1 pulley and 16 tpi thread
[19:50:01] <pink_vampire2> stepper or servo?
[19:50:13] <djdelorie> it's all servos
[19:50:21] <pink_vampire2> yeah.. that nice.
[19:50:24] <pink_vampire2> ac?
[19:50:37] <djdelorie> yup, I'm a big fan of servos. Mine are BLDC with the custom controllers
[19:51:00] <pink_vampire2> me too
[19:51:13] <djdelorie> I mean... they never miss a step and don't get hot when idle, what's the down side?
[19:51:24] <_methods> &&&
[19:51:26] <_methods> $$$
[19:51:51] <djdelorie> If you're comparing an industrial servo setup against a rambo with some nema 17's, sure, $$$
[19:51:53] <Loetmichel2> [01:22] <djdelorie> he is gone *for now* <- thats the problem
[19:52:02] <Loetmichel2> some people just cant decide
[19:52:04] <pink_vampire2> now the dc servo are almost the same price as stepper
[19:52:36] <pink_vampire2> or she is a woman :)
[19:53:15] <pink_vampire2> we have that problem..
[19:53:37] <djdelorie> in my house, it's my wife who keeps telling me "just buy it already!" :-)
[19:55:08] <pink_vampire2> djdelorie: if I go shopping I can come back with nothing
[19:57:19] <pink_vampire2> just try to find comfortable high heels that look nice
[19:58:32] <pink_vampire2> djdelorie: ^
[19:58:49] <djdelorie> I have a hard enough time finding comfortable sneakers
[19:59:46] <Loetmichel2> i dont go shopping
[19:59:46] <pink_vampire2> Polymorphism: welcome back
[19:59:51] <Loetmichel2> way to lazy
[19:59:53] <Polymorphism> pink_vampire, ty
[19:59:54] <Loetmichel2> i order online
[19:59:59] <Polymorphism> I crashed
[20:00:02] <Polymorphism> I guess
[20:00:06] <Polymorphism> did anyone reply to my messages?
[20:00:28] <pink_vampire2> what do you want to order?
[20:00:43] <Polymorphism> the best premade machine or kit under 3000
[20:00:52] <Polymorphism> ideally a machine
[20:00:54] <Polymorphism> ready to cut
[20:01:46] <pink_vampire2> for a kit you need to add spindle + vfd (400$) and servo motors (1000)
[20:02:25] <pink_vampire2> so you have left 1000$ for body
[20:02:48] <djdelorie> Polymorphism: buy this: http://www.smw3d.com/ox-diy-cnc-kit/
[20:02:55] <pink_vampire2> and 600 for other stuff that you will descover
[20:03:23] <djdelorie> you end up spending more on tooling than the cnc anyway, right? ;-)
[20:03:47] <pink_vampire2> look at the rail OMG that JUNK!
[20:04:07] <djdelorie> yeah, but it fits his budget and work area specs
[20:04:36] <djdelorie> and he can save the difference in $$ to spend on the next cnc machine :-)
[20:04:39] <Polymorphism> let me take a look
[20:04:49] <Polymorphism> no I want my first machine to be my 2nd
[20:05:41] <Polymorphism> to diy will cost more than the X6
[20:05:48] <Polymorphism> and take a lot of time
[20:05:50] <djdelorie> well my 1st machine is made of plywood, so I don't see why you're listening to *my* opinion :-)
[20:05:57] <Polymorphism> xD
[20:07:00] <Polymorphism> can someone address the z travel/spindle height difference/issue between x6/6040
[20:11:03] <Polymorphism> http://www.smw3d.com/r7-cnc-diy-kit/
[20:13:19] <Polymorphism> how does that comapare?
[20:13:22] <Polymorphism> -a
[20:17:27] <Polymorphism> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/benchtop-pro-cnc-machine-kit-p-314.html
[20:44:06] <XXCoder> djdelorie: servos also wear. steppers last longer.
[20:44:21] <djdelorie> I've never heard that one
[20:44:33] <XXCoder> I recall that on pro vs con page
[20:44:47] <XXCoder> its 2 negs is cost and wear bit faster
[20:44:51] <XXCoder> not too big though
[20:46:13] <pink_vampire> back
[20:46:26] <pink_vampire> Polymorphism: still here?
[20:47:49] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: with dc servo you have to replace brush after some time..
[20:47:54] <pink_vampire> not a big deal.
[20:49:37] <pink_vampire> I just got my fisher tap guide
[20:51:44] <XXCoder> heh fisher toy tap guide toy? ;)
[20:52:17] <Polymorphism> yes
[20:52:22] <Polymorphism> was jut looking at this http://imgur.com/a/oYaiW
[20:52:54] <XXCoder> that looks awesome
[20:56:13] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: why are you call it toy?????????
[20:56:29] <XXCoder> fisher is famous toy brand
[20:57:26] <pink_vampire> you meant fisher price?
[20:57:28] <pink_vampire> ...
[20:57:34] <XXCoder> yep
[20:57:40] <pink_vampire> loll ok..
[21:01:52] <malcom2073> Nice find Polymorphism
[21:02:10] <XXCoder> evil take on kids drawing lol http://deadstate.org/look-what-happens-when-dark-humored-adults-get-ahold-of-a-childrens-coloring-book/
[21:02:18] <XXCoder> very nice find indeed mal
[21:02:49] <Polymorphism> http://mkmra2.blogspot.com/2014/08/cnc-cut-wood-joinery.html this is interesting as well
[21:02:57] <Polymorphism> I'll be back in a while
[21:03:30] <XXCoder> Polymorphism: that ones good if you dont care about micro gaps
[21:03:48] <XXCoder> oh there is other designs
[21:05:15] <Polymorphism> I like some of the blind corner joints for electronic projects in wooden enclosures
[21:06:22] <malcom2073> I someday want to get into wood, metal is so much more fun though
[21:08:06] <pink_vampire> the tap guide is double sided and very tight
[21:08:36] <pink_vampire> no wiggle at all
[21:08:53] <jdh> just a little
[21:09:24] <djdelorie> XXCoder: were you comparing AC servos, or brushless DC servos? brushless have no brushes to wear out...
[21:09:53] <pink_vampire> djdelorie: also ac
[21:09:58] <XXCoder> hmm yeah but then isnt brushless usually more cost
[21:10:05] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: he already said ac
[21:10:29] <Polymorphism> back in a bit
[21:10:32] <malcom2073> I don't think many people use brushed servos anymore do they?
[21:11:26] <XXCoder> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rDLKJrN7EbE/U_ubWRDoJDI/AAAAAAAACQI/qV6fdUJOIvM/s1600/IMG_6921.JPG this is awesome
[21:11:36] <XXCoder> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Y9GDEQTxpK0/U_ubWxwo_jI/AAAAAAAACQY/GBKSfLwRyuw/s1600/IMG_6922.JPG disconnected
[21:11:45] <djdelorie> I'm just trying to understand why a BLDC motor would "wear" faster than a stepper, when they both have the same number of moving parts
[21:11:46] <malcom2073> Yeah
[21:12:18] <XXCoder> that was one of stuff I wondered about.
[21:12:28] <XXCoder> lemme find that pro con page again
[21:12:33] <malcom2073> I'd expect BLDC motors would last longer, smoother motion is less wear and tear on the bearings yeah?
[21:13:07] <XXCoder> found it
[21:13:08] <XXCoder> http://www.vickers-warnick.com/news/choosing-the-right-motor-stepper-motors-and-servo-motors/
[21:13:15] <djdelorie> if the drive electronics are working right, yup. The drive electronics are much more complicated though, and you need encoders and such
[21:14:16] <djdelorie> "The motor may be DC or AC" so it's not specific to BLDC
[21:15:09] <djdelorie> heh. "Servo motors are ideal for high-reliability" yet steppers have "Long lifespan". Pick one side or the other...
[21:15:25] <malcom2073> Heh, looks like it was written by the president of the company
[21:15:31] <XXCoder> it is possible. after all, it can degrade but remain working
[21:15:33] <malcom2073> maybe he should leave this sort of thing to the CTO or engineers
[21:15:48] <XXCoder> while otehr remains high till it wears and degrades faster
[21:16:28] <djdelorie> perhaps, but... same moving parts inside... should be the same lifetime, assuming same load and ignoring the heat difference
[21:16:43] <malcom2073> Steppers do often run hotter
[21:16:53] <XXCoder> heh yeah mine was quite hot
[21:17:11] <djdelorie> yup, my 3d printer has a heat problem with one of the steppers - I have to carefully balance holding torque with heat
[21:17:12] <malcom2073> I don't often come across bad motors in scrapped out hardware interestingly enough
[21:18:23] <djdelorie> I've never had my servos get hot, even after a long cnc run
[21:18:40] <malcom2073> Right, current is roughly equivalant to load.steppers they run full current
[21:19:56] <djdelorie> If it weren't for the higher cost, and that gap is narrowing, servos would be an easy winner
[21:20:07] <malcom2073> I'd totally be running servos if it wasn't for the price gap
[21:20:09] <XXCoder> I wonder if servos is quieter than steppers lol
[21:20:16] <malcom2073> servos are WAY quieter
[21:20:18] <djdelorie> oh yeah, way quieter
[21:20:20] <XXCoder> not that I really care but I do have neighbors
[21:20:21] <malcom2073> As in, damn near silent in comparison
[21:20:35] <djdelorie> my nema 34 servos are quieter than the nema 17s on my printer
[21:20:50] <malcom2073> Mine are loud as hell, but my stepper drives aren't the best
[21:21:30] <malcom2073> djdelorie: pololus are notoriously loud anyway :)
[21:21:51] <djdelorie> mine is a rambo, but I think it's the same driver chip
[21:21:57] <malcom2073> yeah
[21:22:17] <djdelorie> my wife says the printer "sings" and she can hear it from two rooms over
[21:22:23] <malcom2073> Haha yeah, mine does too
[21:22:27] <malcom2073> My kids love it
[21:22:40] <malcom2073> I have two, and one is a screw printer one is belt drive, they make distinctly different tunes
[21:22:58] <djdelorie> whereas the cnc is kinda creepy - you can't tell its on unless you see it moving
[21:23:07] <malcom2073> Nice drives
[21:23:41] <djdelorie> thank you, I think - if you're referring to the electronics
[21:23:50] <malcom2073> Haha yeah, they'd be if they're quiet
[21:24:16] <djdelorie> my drivers are custom designed by me: http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
[21:24:18] <malcom2073> One day I'll get back to servos and get my mill quiet, it's so noisy right now
[21:24:41] <pink_vampire> djdelorie: I have to use the stack light to know it the machine is power,
[21:24:42] <malcom2073> Ohhh that's cool
[21:24:49] <malcom2073> Have you seen stmbl?
[21:24:57] <pink_vampire> you can't hear it
[21:25:04] <XXCoder> wow http://interestingengineering.com/denmark-has-a-miniature-version-of-the-world-you-can-walk-on/
[21:25:17] <XXCoder> denmark may be my first outside usa vication lol
[21:25:18] <djdelorie> pink_vampire: twice today I forgot to turn off my bridgeport
[21:25:41] <pink_vampire> just add a stack light.
[21:26:16] <djdelorie> it has LED displays, I just forget to look at them :-)
[21:26:22] <malcom2073> djdelorie: That's fairly awesome, got a BOM?
[21:26:35] <djdelorie> malcom2073: haven't heard of it, but it's not that hard to do a bldc driver. The hard part is the software.
[21:26:51] <pink_vampire> djdelorie: http://imgur.com/a/c7XuH
[21:26:55] <malcom2073> stmbl is an AC servo driver
[21:27:05] <djdelorie> I probably have a BOM somewhere, cost with pcbs is around $150-$200 per driver board
[21:27:10] <malcom2073> Not bad
[21:28:42] <djdelorie> then you add a couple hundred for a decent motor, it adds up...
[21:28:52] <malcom2073> Of course heh
[21:28:55] <djdelorie> servos win on "cheap" :-P
[21:29:09] <malcom2073> I have a set of brushed DC motors, and a set of brushless, but I think they're AC
[21:29:12] <malcom2073> I gotta check
[21:29:12] <XXCoder> heh my stepper and controller kit all total to bit over $100
[21:29:13] <djdelorie> but that board - in theory - will drive a 7 HP motor. Mine are only 1/3 HP
[21:29:25] <XXCoder> thats 3 steppers kit
[21:29:37] <djdelorie> XXCoder: nema 34?
[21:29:52] <XXCoder> 24 actually, 34s would be around $100 more
[21:30:15] <malcom2073> I got a ful set of 34's for $250
[21:30:29] <malcom2073> + another $150 for a 3 axis drive, but that was on auction
[21:30:37] <pink_vampire> I don't know what to do with my machine. :(
[21:30:44] <djdelorie> I still can't figure out how to compare "power" between steppers and servos though
[21:30:52] <XXCoder> I do want to upgrade my machine evenually with better motors and controller
[21:31:04] <malcom2073> djdelorie: I compared stall torque of the motors with the rated power of the steppers, seemed to work pretty well on my mill he
[21:31:09] <XXCoder> but I must run a bunch to try recoup cost a little,
[21:31:30] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: more artwork?
[21:31:51] <pink_vampire> I don't have ball end mills :(
[21:31:54] <pink_vampire> yet..
[21:32:06] <XXCoder> maybe some 2d artwork
[21:32:16] <djdelorie> mine: stall torque 1.04 Nm, peak 4.1 Nm, at up to around 2000 RPMs with my power supply
[21:32:34] <djdelorie> (servos don't lose torque at high RPMs the way steppers do, either :)
[21:32:47] <malcom2073> True
[21:32:56] <malcom2073> My stepper setup is fairly speed limited, because of the high impedance
[21:33:07] <malcom2073> but they're 1600oz/inch
[21:33:17] <djdelorie> oz/inch or oz-inch ?
[21:33:42] <djdelorie> and is that with or without microstepping?
[21:33:42] <malcom2073> whatever steppers are rated in, I assumed it was a torque
[21:33:53] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: that is the max in feed rate?
[21:33:54] <djdelorie> torque would be oz-inch
[21:34:05] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: I get about 25ipm rapids
[21:34:12] <malcom2073> much faster and I can get stalling, but I think that's due to resonance
[21:34:36] <djdelorie> ah, see I can cut at 300 IPM without worrying about stalling or missing steps :-)
[21:34:39] <pink_vampire> how much it in mm/min?
[21:34:46] <malcom2073> I'm fairly sure my mill would bend, it's only a knee mill
[21:35:04] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: 635mm/min
[21:35:09] <djdelorie> mine always bends, it's plywood
[21:35:13] <malcom2073> heh
[21:35:16] <pink_vampire> that sloooooow
[21:35:21] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: Yes.
[21:35:23] <malcom2073> It's a knee mill
[21:35:33] <malcom2073> On steppers no less
[21:35:46] <pink_vampire> what is a knee mill?
[21:35:53] <djdelorie> like my bridgeport
[21:36:00] <malcom2073> google it, it's a type of mill
[21:36:08] <XXCoder> it mills knees. ;)
[21:36:12] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/photos/bridgeport/img_2808.html
[21:36:18] <malcom2073> it has a giant "knee" that goes up and down, allowing you to mill very large pieces
[21:36:52] <pink_vampire> that nice machine.
[21:37:15] <djdelorie> thanks, I got it from a one-man shop so I'm only the second person to use it :-)
[21:37:35] <pink_vampire> cool
[21:37:45] <malcom2073> https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/12080338_1147898725224507_7425908537789543284_o.jpg
[21:37:48] <malcom2073> There's mine, looking significantly less nice
[21:37:50] <pink_vampire> I wish I have a space for something like that..
[21:38:25] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: CLEAN IT!!!
[21:38:31] <XXCoder> malcom2073: I recall you had some sort of problem? was it fixed?
[21:38:35] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: It's a *LOT* cleaner now heh
[21:38:45] <malcom2073> XXCoder: Yep, it's running now. Switched to steppers, got everything up and running
[21:38:51] <XXCoder> nice
[21:40:04] <malcom2073> Still need to mill myself a tool holder holder, so I can use a proper wrench to tighten collets
[21:40:20] <malcom2073> until then, I'm limited to the 4-5 standard sized endmill holders I have, cant use my collets heh
[21:40:32] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: take a rag and wipe it down.
[21:40:55] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: he already said he cleaned it
[21:41:00] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: Hah, that took a lot more scrubbing than a rag to get off :) It's cleaned up now
[21:41:21] <malcom2073> IT sat outside under a tarp for quite a while, and before that I think it was in a shop and never cleaned
[21:41:28] <pink_vampire> I want to see a picture!
[21:41:41] <malcom2073> I'm housesitting my parents house right now, I'll take one later :P
[21:42:21] <pink_vampire> ok.. :)
[21:42:54] <pink_vampire> I need 8mm square socket
[21:43:21] <pink_vampire> where can I get something like that?
[21:43:54] <Crom> pink_vampire, look thru your 12 point sockets for something that'll fit
[21:44:03] <pink_vampire> no.
[21:44:15] <Crom> otherwise sears used to have them
[21:44:50] <Crom> my pops only has a standard 8 point set
[21:45:18] <pink_vampire> I need it for the drawbar
[21:45:33] <Crom> I have serveral 8 points.. 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", and 1/2",
[21:45:51] <Crom> I have several 8 points.. 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", and 1/2",
[21:45:59] <pink_vampire> but it round on the edges.
[21:46:54] <Crom> take a impact 1/4 socket, aneal it. then brotch a 8mm square in it
[21:47:03] <Crom> then retemper it
[21:48:08] <XXCoder> can mill out squarish hole first
[21:48:10] <djdelorie> make one with your cnc machine :-)
[21:48:12] <pink_vampire> Crom: no
[21:48:14] <XXCoder> then broach it easier
[21:48:24] <djdelorie> pick an end mill that matches the corner radius of the drawbar
[21:49:06] <pink_vampire> i can make something from scratch
[21:49:09] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: no broach way would be mill almost square (smallest corner radius you can)
[21:49:14] <XXCoder> then drill corners
[21:49:36] <pink_vampire> but I need 1/16" end mill for that.
[21:49:52] <djdelorie> reminds me of a cnc lathe I saw that could turn hexagonal holes by moving the Z in time with the A axis
[21:50:08] <pink_vampire> the smallest i have is 3/16
[21:50:23] <XXCoder> djdelorie: lathes can do broach if I recall. just do 1 degree angle and both spins together
[21:50:53] <djdelorie> yeah, but this can do ANY shape, not just what the broach company sells. It was cool to watch too
[21:50:58] <djdelorie> but not very fast
[21:51:32] <XXCoder> oh yeah. yeah
[21:51:44] <XXCoder> very complex cut pattern but simple result. works though
[21:55:30] <pink_vampire> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-Square-8-mm-Metal-Keys-267-28-/151024884961?hash=item2329c8dce1:g:t4gAAOxypstRYzb-
[21:57:43] <Not-Renny> Hey, is it possible to make leadscrews on a plain late, or do you need more specialized equipment to make something functional?
[21:58:32] <djdelorie> sure you can, although you'd probably need a follow steady to do it right
[21:58:33] <pink_vampire> Not-Renny: just get acme screws
[21:59:18] <Not-Renny> I am poor as butts, pink_vampire.
[21:59:25] <djdelorie> I saw a video of making a leadscrew from an acme screw rod, if you're interested I can dig up the url
[21:59:48] <Not-Renny> Hmm, maybe...
[21:59:59] <Not-Renny> But really, all I have access to is a plain lathe..
[22:00:22] <XXCoder> allthread from lowes
[22:00:34] <XXCoder> probably not good enough for machien though
[22:00:44] <djdelorie> Not-Renny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moVDZrYGnyc
[22:01:03] <Not-Renny> Yeah, I'd rather not have an excessively wobbly Z axis....
[22:06:16] <Polymorphism> back
[22:07:44] <Duc> Not-Renny, what type of machine
[22:09:53] <Not-Renny> 3d printer >_>
[22:10:08] <Not-Renny> Still pretty much cnc, sorta
[22:12:12] <XXCoder> its still cnc. computer number control after all
[22:12:21] <XXCoder> there is cnc sew machines
[22:12:28] <Duc> those rods should be about 10 dollars
[22:13:01] <XXCoder> do yourself it
[22:13:03] <XXCoder> ummm
[22:13:06] <XXCoder> DYI lol
[22:13:07] <Not-Renny> I'm having trouble pinning down a source for 5mm screws, though.
[22:13:31] <XXCoder> ball screws is surpising cheap from chinese, just clean bearings
[22:13:37] <Not-Renny> Yeah. Maybe I'll do yourself it a screw like that guy :P
[22:14:02] <Not-Renny> where at, XXCoder?
[22:14:09] <XXCoder> aliexpress or ebay
[22:14:28] <XXCoder> still more expensive than making one yourself though
[22:15:00] <djdelorie> my Z uses a junk 3/8-16 all-thread, it works
[22:15:21] <XXCoder> yeah it does depend on tol needs
[22:15:43] <djdelorie> it really was a case of "make do with what you have and build a better one later"
[22:15:48] <djdelorie> but so far I haven't needed a better one
[22:16:32] <Not-Renny> I have reservations about allthread based on what the printed stuff on the makerspace 3d printer does
[22:16:55] <Not-Renny> Butt, if they have it in metric, I'll probably get some.
[22:21:26] <joem_> its alive!
[22:21:26] <joem_> https://i.imgur.com/YbHxnnn.png
[22:21:57] <XXCoder> I need to build a case heh
[22:22:24] <XXCoder> I suck on manual stuff so I cant make holes for tapping so not too sure how yet lol
[22:24:16] <Polymorphism> http://www.head-fi.org/t/465207/guitarists-my-vintage-inspired-big-muff-guitar-pedal I need themachine to do this
[22:24:30] <Polymorphism> but if the z travel is only 65mm will the 3" case fit under the tool?
[22:29:39] <Polymorphism> noooooooooooooooo
[22:32:38] <Polymorphism> "In some cases, while the workpiece itself is taller than the standard travel, the actual height delta of contours in the piece are less than the z travel of the machine. In this case, rather than extending the z travel, more room can just be provided for the workpiece."
[22:39:06] <evil_ren> polymorphism: typically you can move the headstock up and down to fit taller work and longer tools
[22:39:27] <Polymorphism> aha !?
[22:39:32] <Polymorphism> this may be what I've been trying to determine
[22:39:44] <Polymorphism> is that the spindle?
[22:39:52] <evil_ren> kind of
[22:39:58] <evil_ren> its usually what holds the spindle
[22:40:26] <evil_ren> and this is going to be very machine specific, and may not be able to be adjusted without retuning the machine to get spindle perpendicular again
[22:45:50] <Polymorphism> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-STAINLESS-DRAG-ENGRAVING-TOOL-BIT-W-SPRING-LOADED-DIAMOND-TIP-SHERLINE-TAIG-/191825754117?hash=item2ca9b4b805:g:okAAAOSwPc9WzRo0
[22:46:08] <XXCoder> how do that bit work?
[22:46:18] <XXCoder> do it need high rpm or something?
[22:46:56] <XXCoder> video shows it not spinning at all. interesting
[22:46:57] <Polymorphism> 0 rpm
[22:47:35] <XXCoder> handy for some applications I guess.
[22:47:56] <Polymorphism> it's supposed to give a cleaner result for engraving
[22:48:07] <XXCoder> wonder how it looks on glass
[22:49:35] <Polymorphism> great I'll bet
[22:50:00] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPKjFHkreLA
[22:51:52] <XXCoder> definitely considing buying one sometimes
[22:54:54] <XXCoder> second tool looks very weird https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t_t8Sp0fAg
[22:58:08] <Polymorphism> he also put the wrong president on there xD
[22:58:35] <XXCoder> heh I'll tajke your word for it. havent seen $1 coin for years
[22:58:36] <Polymorphism> thats a 6090
[22:58:40] <Polymorphism> basically a larger 6040
[22:58:44] <Polymorphism> with cast frame I think
[23:01:45] <XXCoder> cool
[23:46:28] <Polymorphism> "milled out a lot of parts today. The machine ran without hitch or issue. The last piece was 1/4" thick aluminum, and it plowed through that in one pass with nary a problem. 4 mm/sec feed speed and 6 mm/sec plunge speed worked fine. I think maybe it would handle it faster, but with only one spare bit, I took it easy. Best quality of cut was made with the spindle at around 15000 rpm. It made the cuts as smooth as glass. I wish
[23:46:28] <Polymorphism> I had bought this machine sooner."
[23:48:51] <Polymorphism> 1.5kw spindle
[23:49:22] <atlas__> hey guys...looking to get into CNC on a budget -- just small stuff, desktop size even. Looking at Mostly Printed CNC (www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999
[23:49:37] <atlas__> or maybe a 3020 frame and stuff from http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20160326202152&SearchText=3020+cnc ?
[23:50:00] <XXCoder> suggest not start url with some other url as it isnt clickable heh
[23:50:22] <atlas__> it had a return on it and hit submitted sorry :(
[23:50:44] <XXCoder> actually was talking about earlier one with ( :)
[23:51:18] <atlas__> www.thingiverse.com/thing:724999 :)
[23:51:58] <XXCoder> weird, it refuse to load, must be hexchat thing, even right click hit load in websiter
[23:52:13] <XXCoder> saved by copy + paste heh
[23:52:35] <XXCoder> whats your polan with cnc?
[23:53:16] <atlas__> want it to be general purpose, maximum difficulty stuff i would like to do would be small aluminum
[23:53:33] <atlas__> hopefully being able to avoid any water or anything like that would be great
[23:53:44] <atlas__> if that's not feasible, I will scrap the idea of being able to do aluminum
[23:53:49] <djdelorie> what budget, and how big?
[23:54:01] <atlas__> $1500CAD
[23:54:12] <atlas__> small. Desktop. Not worried about doing big things, big cuts or anything like that
[23:54:13] <djdelorie> and diy, kit, or ready-to-cut ?
[23:54:18] <atlas__> I'm easy.
[23:54:26] <atlas__> looking at mostly printed or a chinese 3020 currently
[23:54:42] <XXCoder> chinese tend to be ok, expecially if you rebuild it
[23:54:46] <atlas__> I think I could do a mostly printed for under $1k cad pretty easy
[23:55:24] <djdelorie> http://openbuilds.org/builds/c-beam%E2%84%A2-machine-plate-maker.2020/ ?
[23:56:00] <atlas__> djdelorie: oh that looks awesome
[23:56:43] <XXCoder> 8020 beams tend to be bit pricy
[23:56:56] <djdelorie> that one is $500 for the parts kit
[23:57:22] <XXCoder> do it include 8020
[23:58:48] <djdelorie> $525 with steppers. It uses a "c-beam" extrusion but yes, it's included
[23:59:04] <djdelorie> http://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-machine-mechanical-bundle/
[23:59:31] <XXCoder> to too bad actually
[23:59:37] <djdelorie> http://openbuildspartstore.com/c-beam-linear-rail/