#linuxcnc | Logs for 2016-03-13

[03:01:17] <Crom> witnit doing 5th axis?
[03:15:49] <Deejay> moin
[05:27:50] <witnit> Crom: nah I just have a turret which is rotary, side cam which is wrapped rotary and a turret which is linear
[07:51:29] <jthornton> oh crap I over slept stupid time change day
[11:11:24] <zeeshan> Lazy sunday
[11:11:25] <zeeshan> hooray
[11:14:39] <Nick001> was wondering if anyone was home
[11:14:41] <Duc_mobile> yes it is
[11:15:01] <zeeshan> does home depot sell plastic hardware
[11:15:08] <zeeshan> i vaguely remember seeing some
[11:15:10] <Duc_mobile> I believe so but very limited
[11:15:29] <zeeshan> i need some 10-32 nylon set screws or plastic bolts
[11:15:45] <Duc_mobile> if not lowes has them
[11:17:06] <zeeshan> https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRwRqRp1-OLZqacBiaFcV3ykVLYRzQMH55_WaeXkD4a2MB2iZO1Q
[11:17:11] <zeeshan> im trying to make something that holds this
[11:17:29] <zeeshan> i was thinking of making a hollow rectangular plastic base
[11:17:44] <zeeshan> with set screws on the side to "wedge" it into place to this thing
[11:17:56] <Duc_mobile> what is it mounting on
[11:18:07] <zeeshan> thats what i mtrying to make
[11:18:07] <zeeshan> a mount
[11:18:11] <zeeshan> so i can mount it in the car
[11:18:17] <zeeshan> http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mh82kfYxlIdB3Y-v7IeQH6Q.jpg
[11:18:19] <zeeshan> another image of it
[11:19:26] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/W7IPG1W.jpg
[11:19:28] <Duc_mobile> why not use the original mounting holes for the fuse block
[11:19:33] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/fOJBX8s.jpg
[11:19:37] <zeeshan> been wiring up so much stuff!
[11:19:41] <zeeshan> there is no original mounting block
[11:19:56] <zeeshan> https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQL1wo8VlRtI2V6MFJIf8J8D8UaE3c0tlcFT06LLhYWVaRzYqp
[11:20:01] <zeeshan> it mounts directly to the battery
[11:20:08] <zeeshan> the battery is not in the engine bay
[11:20:10] <Duc_mobile> intesting
[11:20:22] <zeeshan> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/force13b/car/map.jpg
[11:20:23] <zeeshan> it used to be there
[11:20:49] <Duc_mobile> glue to a bracket?
[11:20:56] <zeeshan> hm
[11:21:19] <zeeshan> im worried it wont hold well :/
[11:21:21] <OdinYggd> I've seen adapters to convert a side post battery to a top post
[11:21:29] <OdinYggd> Buy one of these and bolt it onto a plastic block so that it is insulated
[11:21:45] <OdinYggd> Then it can clamp on as if there was a battery under it
[11:22:01] <zeeshan> i dont havve the space
[11:22:10] <zeeshan> i guess i only gave part of the info :P
[11:23:59] <Duc_mobile> massive turbo upgrade I take it
[11:26:42] <tiwake> what would the position be called for figuring out what kind of tooling is needed to make something new, and ordering it?
[11:26:45] <tiwake> if any
[11:27:03] <tiwake> (building my resume)
[11:34:35] <Duc_mobile> manufacturing engineer
[11:34:38] <Duc_mobile> or a machinist
[11:35:17] <tiwake> what is manufacturing engineer?
[11:35:18] <tiwake> heh
[11:35:46] <Duc_mobile> Manufacturing engineering is a discipline of engineering dealing with different manufacturing practices and includes the research, design and development of systems, processes, machines, tools, and equipment.
[11:35:54] <tiwake> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_engineering
[11:36:01] <archivist> a "manufacturing engineer" knows the process, a machinist id the monkey on the shop floor
[11:36:03] <tiwake> ah ok
[11:36:08] <OdinYggd> Manufacturing engineer is the guy that decides how it will be made.
[11:36:12] <OdinYggd> Usually the boss of the machinists
[11:36:17] <OdinYggd> And quite often, an idiot
[11:36:24] <OdinYggd> at least the one where I work is
[11:36:30] <tiwake> ha
[11:36:38] <OdinYggd> He knows how to make stuff and nothing else
[11:36:39] <Duc_mobile> lol
[11:36:52] <archivist> you get promoted to where you can do less damage
[11:37:10] <Duc_mobile> a good machinist and manufacturing engineer will work together to design and build stuff together that functions but can be made cheaper
[11:37:24] <OdinYggd> No, they don't get to design that
[11:37:25] <tiwake> alright, I'll put manufacturing engineering down, cause thats pretty much what I did
[11:37:31] <OdinYggd> The customer's application engineer designs that part
[11:37:42] <OdinYggd> The manufacturing engineer is given a blueprint and has to determine best path from blueprint to finished part
[11:37:57] <OdinYggd> Then gives the machinists tooling and what approach to take so they can build the thing
[11:38:01] <archivist> depends on the company
[11:38:14] <Duc_mobile> I guess in my world we design, help build and make sure the process works at the end
[11:38:22] <OdinYggd> And the project, but normally no the manufacturing engineer doesn't get to design it unless it is in-house or the customer asked him to
[11:38:34] <OdinYggd> Most of the time the customer engineer already specified what they want
[11:38:48] <OdinYggd> Or the maintenance man specified, because I do engineering too after all.
[11:39:15] <tiwake> OdinYggd: donno what customers you have, but almost all my customers needed "help" figuring out what they wanted
[11:39:29] <tiwake> including part design :-/
[11:39:38] <OdinYggd> Corning Inc, Sikorsky Aircraft, Kraft cheese, Mirion imaging systems
[11:39:54] <archivist> some customers have less clue than others
[11:40:03] <tiwake> this is true
[11:40:04] <OdinYggd> Almost everything they send us for orders is already engineered by them we just have to build the thing
[11:40:14] <Duc_mobile> and different field treat manufacturing engineers differenly
[11:40:16] <OdinYggd> Other customers, like the local landscaper who needs to stiffen up a lawnmower frame
[11:40:35] <OdinYggd> Or the gasfield place that just needs a pipe from A to B that can handle 10k PSI and cost less than $5000
[11:40:39] <OdinYggd> They let us do the numbers
[11:40:54] <tiwake> well
[11:41:04] <OdinYggd> Depends on how it is being used mostly, if it has to be part of an engineered system or if it just has to wrok
[11:41:05] <OdinYggd> *work
[11:42:00] <Duc_mobile> or the place that builds the mower will probably have the manufacturing engineer design from the ground up everything including the assebmly line
[11:42:02] <OdinYggd> I have noticed that aerospace, R&D labs, and nuclear tech tend to be customer-specified while other things can go either way
[11:42:05] <zeeshan> OdinYggd: manufacturing engineers do do design
[11:42:15] <zeeshan> fixture design, tool design
[11:42:22] <OdinYggd> That is true, they do that much at least
[11:42:32] <zeeshan> they also input into the product design
[11:42:41] <zeeshan> but really depends on the company :P
[11:42:51] <archivist> I get a clock minus missing parts and have to fill in the blanks
[11:42:57] <tiwake> one of my customers, near space corporation... the guy gives me a drawing, but a lot of times is very difficult to machine so I help him redesign it so it fits his budget
[11:43:17] <zeeshan> Tiwake thats ME work :D
[11:43:20] <tiwake> the guy is a bit of an airhead when it comes to designing parts
[11:43:23] <tiwake> heh
[11:43:27] <zeeshan> you can't blame him/her
[11:43:27] <tiwake> but he tries
[11:43:29] <zeeshan> they dont know the process
[11:43:36] <Duc_mobile> CAD monkeys dont understanding machining usually
[11:43:45] <OdinYggd> ^
[11:43:48] <tiwake> yeah
[11:43:50] <OdinYggd> That was the hardest thing about Sikorsky
[11:44:03] <zeeshan> theres a difference betwen a cad monkey and a design engineer though
[11:44:04] <archivist> cad monkeys should spend a couple of years actually making stuff
[11:44:04] <OdinYggd> Most of their aircraft parts were impossible to make because their engineers had no idea how it would be made
[11:44:11] <zeeshan> cad monkey will mostly be doing detailing
[11:44:15] <OdinYggd> They just shit out a shape and expected you to make it
[11:44:16] <zeeshan> or mods to parts
[11:44:20] <tiwake> thing is he _is_ a mechanical engineer
[11:44:29] <OdinYggd> More than once we had to refuse parts because they would be impossible to fixture for
[11:44:32] <zeeshan> design mech eng will do both
[11:44:33] <tiwake> just without much machining experience evidently
[11:44:43] <zeeshan> compliance and design and cad monkeyism :P
[11:44:44] <OdinYggd> A good engineer of any type considers how it will be built
[11:44:50] <OdinYggd> and designs it to be easy to build and easy to service.
[11:45:01] <Duc_mobile> I love R&D engineers that say it went together on my desk fine in 5 minutes yea I have to make 300 a shift with joe blow idiot
[11:45:02] <OdinYggd> A crap engineer just puts his idea in a cad model and expects everyone else to bend over backwards and deliver it
[11:45:06] <Duc_mobile> fit your shit
[11:45:32] <OdinYggd> Duc_mobile, that's when you build a 3D printer
[11:45:34] <OdinYggd> Put it on his desk
[11:45:41] <OdinYggd> and say here, this will solve all your prototyping problems.
[11:45:46] <zeeshan> lol
[11:45:53] <tiwake> heh
[11:45:53] <OdinYggd> He can sit there watching the slowest of manufacturing processes do its thing
[11:45:57] <tiwake> I love you guys
[11:46:00] <tiwake> I love this channel
[11:46:01] <tiwake> lol
[11:46:17] <tiwake> IRC for life
[11:46:22] <Duc_mobile> not really a prototype problem but difficulty of assembly
[11:46:33] <zeeshan> sometimes floor people bitch too much
[11:46:36] <zeeshan> in my experience :P
[11:46:46] <OdinYggd> Well yeah
[11:46:48] <zeeshan> you gotta draw the line somewhere
[11:46:49] <tiwake> zeeshan: CNC operators?
[11:46:49] <zeeshan> haha
[11:46:52] <zeeshan> no assemblers
[11:46:55] <tiwake> ah
[11:46:56] <Duc_mobile> Ive made R&D guys try to build stuff on the line and its amazing how designs change
[11:47:02] <zeeshan> theyre whining about having to torque a bolt from the back side
[11:47:05] <OdinYggd> cause if its a pain in the butt to build nobody is going to want to do it
[11:47:09] <OdinYggd> lol
[11:47:09] <zeeshan> im like "are you kidding me"
[11:47:15] <zeeshan> let me show you how its done.
[11:47:22] <zeeshan> then they be quiet
[11:47:35] <zeeshan> an engineer who actually builds shit is a dangerous combo :)
[11:47:50] <tiwake> yeah
[11:47:52] <zeeshan> but 65% of the time they have a good point
[11:47:54] <Duc_mobile> yes it is
[11:48:00] <OdinYggd> Indeed it is.
[11:48:09] <OdinYggd> The people making it have no excuse
[11:48:17] <OdinYggd> Cause the guy who designed it could put it together in his sleep
[11:48:22] <zeeshan> as harsh as this sounds
[11:48:26] <Duc_mobile> and machine it sometimes
[11:48:33] <OdinYggd> Thats a thing too
[11:48:38] <zeeshan> sometimes there are things we make decisions on in the design process well knowingly that it'll be a pain in the ass for the assembler
[11:48:43] <zeeshan> but its the cheapest solution
[11:48:44] <OdinYggd> CAD operators should have a manditory semester of manual machining
[11:48:46] <Sync_> a friend of mine just got a part where the engineers clearly did not know how to DFM
[11:48:48] <OdinYggd> Manual, not CNC
[11:48:50] <zeeshan> cause their time vs cost of fancy tooling
[11:48:53] <OdinYggd> Because all CNC does is automates manual operations
[11:48:57] <zeeshan> or even cost of redesign is not economical
[11:49:17] <tiwake> Sync_: DFM?
[11:49:21] <zeeshan> design for manufacture
[11:49:25] <tiwake> ah
[11:49:35] <OdinYggd> Depends on the batch size too though
[11:49:41] <tiwake> very much depends
[11:49:42] <Duc_mobile> thats why they should have a good relationship with the machinist. Give and take on design
[11:49:52] <OdinYggd> If its only a small batch, it isn't so bad even if it has problems getting together
[11:50:03] <OdinYggd> Making a few thousand a year, if it doesn't go together easy good luck getting product rate
[11:50:08] <zeeshan> hehe
[11:50:17] <Sync_> http://sledder.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/36-Summit-T3.jpg that front hub thing
[11:50:29] <Sync_> is a 5 axis part with a 90° head
[11:50:41] <Sync_> the stock is forged
[11:50:45] <tiwake> 1000+ parts in a year... that is a very different process than 10 a year XD
[11:50:49] <Sync_> all of the holes are in weird angles
[11:50:55] <zeeshan> its a 3 axis part :P
[11:50:56] <OdinYggd> The shiny part on the end?
[11:50:57] <zeeshan> with a lot of setups!!!!!!
[11:51:10] <Sync_> yes OdinYggd
[11:51:13] <Duc_mobile> yea
[11:51:15] <Sync_> yeah fuck that zeeshan
[11:51:36] <Sync_> access is an issue as you can't get to the inner taper
[11:51:51] <tiwake> oh gosh that part
[11:51:51] <Duc_mobile> at least most of surfaces dont need to be within 2 thou
[11:51:53] <OdinYggd> The upper and lower holes are not lined up?
[11:51:59] <Sync_> of course not
[11:52:05] <OdinYggd> Yeah that would suck to make then
[11:52:31] <Sync_> the contour is actually not machined, it is forged but the holes are what are to be machined
[11:52:31] <OdinYggd> I was thinking a trunnion style 4 axis could give the 90 degree flip it needs between contour and mounting, but if the holes don't line up the tooling won't reach the middle hole
[11:52:38] <Sync_> yep
[11:52:38] <Sync_> :D
[11:52:48] <Sync_> also the upper hole is smaller than the bottom one
[11:52:56] <OdinYggd> Even more damnit
[11:53:09] <OdinYggd> How about coming up from the bottom?
[11:53:10] <Duc_mobile> thats when you become friends with the tooling reps
[11:53:15] <OdinYggd> The toe of it interferes with the middle hole?
[11:53:17] <Sync_> yes
[11:53:24] <Sync_> also it has a taper in the up direction
[11:53:29] <Sync_> so you cannot machine it from the bottom
[11:53:32] <OdinYggd> My boss would love you if you asked him to quote that for you
[11:53:39] <OdinYggd> cause he'd not realize that and quote it anyway
[11:53:45] <OdinYggd> only to find out we don't have a machine that can get that middle hole
[11:53:54] <tiwake> lol
[11:54:09] <OdinYggd> He's been doing that a lot lately, taking jobs that we don't actually have the capacity for.
[11:54:12] <Sync_> well in the end it only needs two custom tools and an angle head
[11:54:15] <OdinYggd> I already bitched him out for it last week
[11:54:31] <OdinYggd> Had to sawzall a hole in the wall to give one of the lathes clearance for a longer through-spindle part
[11:54:37] <Sync_> long reach taper reamer for the tang on the rear and a stubby reamer for the middle hole
[11:54:38] <OdinYggd> I was like why is this even on our floor
[11:55:06] <tiwake> that part looks like it should be two parts... heh
[11:55:14] <OdinYggd> Its a forging though
[11:55:18] <Sync_> 2 parts would be weaker and heavier
[11:55:21] <OdinYggd> How would you attach two pieces and retain that strength
[11:55:29] <Sync_> it is a suspension component, so both matters
[11:55:30] <OdinYggd> Weldments would have a weak spot
[11:55:42] <Sync_> you could machine them, weld and heat treat
[11:55:44] <Sync_> but F that
[11:55:48] <tiwake> magical thing, just like the magic machine thats needed to make it one piece
[11:55:54] <OdinYggd> Could always 3D print it
[11:55:59] <OdinYggd> SpaceX has a machine that can do it
[11:56:03] <OdinYggd> But sky high costing
[11:56:09] <enleth> OdinYggd: couldn't agree more on having CNC operators do some manual machining sometime
[11:56:11] <Sync_> tiwake: it is not magic to machine, just annoying
[11:56:21] <OdinYggd> Not CNC operators, CAD operators
[11:56:25] <Duc_mobile> its a good challenge
[11:56:26] <enleth> That too
[11:56:29] <OdinYggd> I've made oneoff parts on a CNC before
[11:56:43] <OdinYggd> Had a 3 axis movement on a 4 axis part
[11:56:45] <Sync_> http://www.remmel.de/cms/tl_files/spannen/Werkzeugspannung%20auf%20Fraes/winkelkopf_schmale_bauform.jpg it needs one of those
[11:56:46] <archivist> I would whack the designer and tilt the inner hole a bit to make it easier
[11:56:48] <OdinYggd> That was fun to program
[11:56:55] <enleth> I've already seen some schools try to teach machining with no manual machines at all, that's a disaster
[11:57:01] <Sync_> archivist: that does not work
[11:57:06] <OdinYggd> Maybe, maybe not.
[11:57:07] <Sync_> that will mess with the suspension geometry
[11:57:12] <OdinYggd> The newer 'manual' machines are all fly by wire.
[11:57:15] <Duc_mobile> they dont understand flow of operations then
[11:57:28] <OdinYggd> They use a conversational CNC with handwheel inputs for manual control
[11:57:44] <archivist> Sync_, nope you just rotate around the current pivot point, identical
[11:57:45] <OdinYggd> But on a real manual machine you can actually feel the tool working, and adjust your settings accordingly till it cuts right
[11:57:55] <OdinYggd> You don't get that with one of the new flybywire machines
[11:58:06] <enleth> OdinYggd: you mean, glorified MPGs disguised as "handwheels"?
[11:58:24] <Sync_> archivist: nope, as it moves the axis when you turn the skis
[11:58:36] <OdinYggd> Whatever they are. I always thought they were just a rotary incremental encoder with a bit of a clicking mechanism on it so it wouldn't coast stupidly long
[11:58:47] <archivist> the ball stays in the same place
[11:59:05] <enleth> One more reason I'm happy with the machine I have, it's a factory-made CNC but the handwheels engage mechanically when needed
[11:59:12] <OdinYggd> Yeah.
[11:59:39] <OdinYggd> I like the old Bridgeport + Prototrak combo because you still had a shaft connection for manual control, but then could fold up the handles on the wheels and use CNC control for contouring
[11:59:46] <OdinYggd> I've seen it in 2 axis and 3 axis versions
[12:00:07] <enleth> OdinYggd: I've got exactly this in a Bridgeport Series 1 MDI
[12:00:18] <OdinYggd> what controller does it use?
[12:00:19] <enleth> Heidenhain control and actual mechanical handwheels
[12:00:22] <enleth> TNC 131
[12:00:25] <Duc_mobile> those came with hand wheels?
[12:00:32] <enleth> Duc_mobile: yep.
[12:00:36] <Sync_> ah yeah, that does not work due to the movement range of the balljoint archivist
[12:00:39] <OdinYggd> The ones I work with are genuine bridgeport knee mills retrofitted to use Prototrak M2 controllers and ballscrews
[12:00:44] <Sync_> it is a tricky thing
[12:00:55] <OdinYggd> ~20 year old i386 powered PCs controlling them
[12:00:59] <Sync_> I agree it should be a bit more tilted to get it right, but there is a reason why it is that way
[12:01:02] <OdinYggd> They take 30 pin SIMMs and run MSDOS 6.22
[12:01:04] <Duc_mobile> lucky I got a boss5 that I wish had them
[12:01:10] <enleth> OdinYggd: mine is not retrofitted, it's a gennuine factory configuration
[12:01:13] <OdinYggd> Nice.
[12:01:19] <archivist> Sync_, one rotated the other part so it matches to get the rang
[12:01:27] <enleth> Same iron as Series 1 CNC, but that did not have handwheels
[12:01:36] <enleth> MDI is, I think, a very rare version of Series 1
[12:01:42] <OdinYggd> Interesting
[12:01:47] <OdinYggd> That is one nice thing about the M2.
[12:02:01] <OdinYggd> Because its a 90s vintage i386 PC, I can usually find spare mainboards in people's attics
[12:02:08] <OdinYggd> The monitors failing is a problem in itself though
[12:02:21] <OdinYggd> Originally they had 8" CRT monitors in them from old point of sale equipment
[12:02:25] <enleth> Problem with the MDI version is, it only has one servo drive, so no arcs or even diagonals - but I can fix that easily. It would be much harder to give proper handwheels to the full-fledged CNC version
[12:02:34] <OdinYggd> Said monitors are now hard to get, and I haven't' found an LCD suitable to replace them
[12:02:46] <OdinYggd> Ah. These have 2 axis servo, and a 3 axis version exists
[12:02:50] <OdinYggd> M2 and M3
[12:03:08] <Sync_> huh, most of the monitors are easy to replace by lcds
[12:03:19] <Sync_> the only issue is the video signal, but that's fairly uninvolved to convert
[12:03:36] <enleth> Series 1 CNC is 3 axis and all the axis drivetrains are absolutely identical as mine, the difference is only in the cabinet containing more servo drives
[12:04:04] <tiwake> alright, I'm taking off
[12:04:04] <Duc_mobile> enleth: do you have servos or steppers?
[12:04:08] <tiwake> TTFN
[12:04:29] <tiwake> as always, love the discussions here :3
[12:04:46] <OdinYggd> usually they are sync_ but for some reason monitors small enough to fit inside the box are really hard to find
[12:04:49] <enleth> Duc_mobile: servos of course. SEM MT30H4-44
[12:05:07] <OdinYggd> I did try one that I found online that was around 6", only to discover that despite having a VGA connector it was not compatible with msdos
[12:05:17] <enleth> with a shitty old Bosch Z1-A15 drive
[12:05:24] <OdinYggd> The machine's bios displays, and then the screen blanks out once dos loads
[12:05:32] <Duc_mobile> man I was hoping someone would want my old steppers LOL
[12:05:35] <enleth> (or something like that, I may have mixed up the drive P/N)
[12:05:48] <OdinYggd> yet I can send image to it from a laptop no problem, and a regular desktop monitor works fine with the machine control- it just doesn't fit the case
[12:06:21] <Sync_> ah, you are using one with a vga input
[12:06:26] <Sync_> yeah, I just made my own controller
[12:06:35] <enleth> Best thing about factory CNC iron from bridgeport - the knee has a recess for the Y motor so that it points inwards, and the X motor hangs off the knee, not the table
[12:06:49] <enleth> That's because X axis ballscrew is stationary, the nut rotates
[12:07:42] <enleth> Actually the nut *is* the toothed belt pulley
[12:07:47] <enleth> they pressed one into the other
[12:08:13] <OdinYggd> The bridgeports I work with also have the Y motor in a recess in the knee
[12:08:20] <OdinYggd> But the X motor sticks out off the end of the table
[12:08:39] <OdinYggd> Nut cartridge is bolted in place to a casting on the table bottom, and the screw runs through it like on a manual bridgeport
[12:08:43] <Sync_> enleth: it's a neat and compact solution
[12:08:54] <OdinYggd> That is a neat solution, but I haven't seen a bridgeport using it yet
[12:08:56] <Sync_> the only annoying thing is that you need to figure out a compact bearing scheme
[12:08:58] <Duc_mobile> did your come with the 2:! yet
[12:09:10] <Duc_mobile> 2:1 pulley setup I mean
[12:10:51] <Duc_mobile> Finally was able to fit the rotary table on the mill to see how it fit
[12:10:52] <Duc_mobile> http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd465/shefron/Machinery/Boss5%20servo/20160313_114108_zpswnvyovfb.jpg
[12:11:48] <Sync_> that's not too bad
[12:12:30] <Duc_mobile> nah 17inches before I add a 6inch chuck
[12:12:41] <Duc_mobile> I may need to build a extention fixture plate
[12:15:10] <enleth> OdinYggd: some disassembly, cleaning and reassembly photos, lots of mechanical details if you're interested: https://gallery.hackerspace.pl/Bridgeport https://gallery.hackerspace.pl/Bridgeport%202015-07-29 https://gallery.hackerspace.pl/Bridgeport-2015-08-25
[12:16:18] <enleth> Sync_: neat and compact is one thing, the other is that you don't have a fucking banana for a machine table after several decades of the motor and stuff pulling the end of the 42" table down
[12:16:30] <OdinYggd> that is neat, but it isn't a standard bridgeport table :)
[12:16:39] <Sync_> I don't think that it would bananarize a machine table
[12:16:41] <OdinYggd> Looks like the factory CNC bridgeports had a few modifications
[12:16:44] <OdinYggd> it does Sync_
[12:17:04] <OdinYggd> I was told by a wise old machinist to always put the bridgeport table back near the middle of its travel at the end of the day
[12:17:06] <enleth> Sync_: that's the prime reason for avoiding very old maual bridgeports fitted with X power feed
[12:17:13] <OdinYggd> because leaving it hanging off one end, the weight of it will sag the table till it is bowed
[12:17:24] <OdinYggd> You wouldn't think the cast iron would move that much, but give it a decade or two and it most certainly does
[12:17:46] <Sync_> I only heard that the torque it applies will force the oil out of one side of the slide
[12:17:48] <enleth> OdinYggd: quite a few modifications indeed, starting with the ram being rigid, but the table is non-standard too
[12:17:53] <Sync_> so you should put it in the middle
[12:18:00] <Duc_mobile> Not a fan of the table style. Mine is the same way but its a pain to make a enclosure for
[12:18:02] <enleth> there are coolant collection channels and so on
[12:18:16] <OdinYggd> Yeah. Bridgeport took the standard layout and improved on it for a dedicated CNC machine
[12:18:24] <OdinYggd> That isn't your normal knee mill with a CNC tacked on
[12:18:38] <Sync_> I have measured our BP in the shop with the feed and it is now bowed
[12:18:41] <Sync_> and it is now 40 years old
[12:18:42] <OdinYggd> The standard mills i'm used to have the same notch for the y axis power feed, but the drive for the X sticks out off one end
[12:18:43] <Sync_> so eh
[12:19:02] <enleth> Duc_mobile: you mean the CNC table? Yeah, they could have it made a little less curvy and angle-y at the edges
[12:19:27] <enleth> OdinYggd: and that's why I'm so happy I got it for scrap value
[12:19:30] <Duc_mobile> enleth: you may need to grind a channel up from for the coolant to run to both sides.
[12:19:49] <OdinYggd> A lot of 1980s CNCs are going for scrap
[12:19:53] <enleth> Best of both wordls really, CNC and manual
[12:20:08] <OdinYggd> The parts for an OEM repair are becoming hard to get, and few maintenence people know how to properly take care of them
[12:20:15] <OdinYggd> That knowledge was lost to corporate reshuffling and employee turnover
[12:20:18] <enleth> It is a little worn, but most of the original chrome plating on the ways is still there
[12:20:32] <OdinYggd> For a DIY'er, you can get a fully functional machine for scrap price
[12:20:40] <OdinYggd> because its just a bit old and few people know how to use it
[12:20:43] <enleth> OdinYggd: I'd say an old bridgeport is still easier to get parts for than old anything else
[12:20:49] <OdinYggd> Very much so.
[12:20:55] <OdinYggd> Hardinge owns Bridgeport.
[12:21:03] <OdinYggd> Their factory is across the train tracks from where I live
[12:21:19] <enleth> I need to replace or remachine the whole varidrive and I could get a full set of brand new parts if I had the money
[12:21:21] <OdinYggd> They still make new bridgeports using the same casting patterns as the ones made in the 1960s
[12:21:28] <OdinYggd> 2J head?
[12:21:45] <enleth> 2J2, downward pointing motor, longer shaft
[12:21:46] <JT-Shop> go across the tracks and get me a couple of way seals for my CHNC
[12:21:48] <OdinYggd> There's a plastic bushing in the varidrive that takes up wear between shaft and pully
[12:22:01] <enleth> But the belt pulley havles are identical
[12:22:09] <OdinYggd> If you allow this to wear out, the pulley sheaves start to slop on the shaft and wears a groove in the shaft
[12:22:27] <OdinYggd> Its pretty straightforward to pull the motor and replace the bushings to keep it nice and tight
[12:22:27] <enleth> There are but that did not stop the stationary pulley half from gouging a sizeable gouge into the mtor shaft
[12:22:34] <OdinYggd> Yep
[12:22:43] <OdinYggd> Most of the 2J heads I've had apart have that.
[12:22:46] <enleth> I had it apart already and seen the damage in detail
[12:22:51] <Duc_mobile> Just dont get rid of the Variable head when you switch to a VFD control
[12:22:59] <enleth> Duc_mobile: I don't intend to
[12:23:00] <Duc_mobile> you lose alot of torque in different ranges
[12:23:02] <OdinYggd> Some of them are so deep that even new bushings won't take up the slack
[12:23:08] <enleth> Duc_mobile: exactly
[12:23:08] <Duc_mobile> major mistake I made
[12:23:15] <OdinYggd> Wh
[12:23:23] <OdinYggd> It should be the back gear providing low end torque, not the varidrive
[12:23:33] <Duc_mobile> throw a encoder on the spindle and make the machine wait till the spindle is at speed
[12:23:39] <OdinYggd> Ah.
[12:23:45] <OdinYggd> I was going to ask how did you deal with the gear ratio changing
[12:23:49] <Sync_> Duc_mobile: servo spindle.
[12:23:54] <enleth> OdinYggd: I intend to repair the motor shaft by welding and machining to a *bigger* size than original, then replace the bushings with a repair kit and bore the pulleys to the new shaft size
[12:23:54] <Duc_mobile> back gear is the low end grunt but still more torque in high
[12:23:57] <Sync_> all of dem torques at 0 speed
[12:23:59] <OdinYggd> Normally a VFD needs a fixed gear ratio between motor and spindle
[12:24:10] <OdinYggd> But that is a good solution, making the VFD run closed loop against a spindle encoder
[12:24:29] <OdinYggd> Then you have the best of both worlds, cause you can adjust the varidrive for torque or speed and have the electronics automatically compensate
[12:24:36] <Duc_mobile> yep
[12:24:42] <enleth> OdinYggd: this is also what I'm planning
[12:25:05] <enleth> I've got a PID-capable VFD, so it's a matter of mounting an encoder on the spindle gear
[12:25:25] <OdinYggd> The Mitsubishi VFDs I use have inputs for stuff like that
[12:25:28] <enleth> There was one guy who did that nicely with hall sensors made for car transmissions
[12:25:30] <OdinYggd> But I would be on my own to make the PID logic
[12:26:07] <OdinYggd> Piece of cake to do really, attiny MCU reads an off the shelf quadrature encoder and does the math to generate a 0-5v speed signal
[12:26:10] <enleth> FYI "INVT" brand chinese VFDs appear to not be a complete pile of shit
[12:26:14] <enleth> pretty capable and all
[12:26:46] <enleth> could use more than one relay output on the 2.2kW model though, but for the price I can't really complain
[12:27:24] <Duc_mobile> can you use the original motor has a AC servo with the encoder on the spindle?
[12:27:37] <enleth> Not with this VFD, no
[12:27:41] <OdinYggd> The only VFD equipped bridgeport I've got is an older J head model with only a DRO, and runs an open loop VFD with a potentiometer control
[12:27:43] <Duc_mobile> at times mine bogs down and I would like the system to up the voltage to the VFD
[12:27:49] <OdinYggd> The dial on the VFD is only accurate if the belt is in the middle setting
[12:28:01] <enleth> Duc_mobile: do you have a vector VFD?
[12:28:03] <OdinYggd> Runs from 25Hz to 120Hz though
[12:28:12] <Duc_mobile> enleth: I have a hitachi VFD
[12:28:20] <OdinYggd> Vector drive though
[12:28:29] <enleth> Duc_mobile: see if it's a U/F control or vector control
[12:28:32] <OdinYggd> The VFD fudges the voltage/current output to each phase coil to maintain torque at low RPM
[12:28:43] <OdinYggd> Mitsubishi D720 and D740 support this
[12:28:46] <OdinYggd> but I've never tried using it
[12:28:46] <enleth> Duc_mobile: a vector control VFD should sense that the motor is bogged down and compensate
[12:28:57] <enleth> Takes some tuning, but it's not rocket science
[12:29:07] <Duc_mobile> enleth: Can I make linuxcnc control it by the 7i77 card?
[12:29:11] <OdinYggd> Mitsubishi claims to be self-tuning with it
[12:29:22] <Sync_> most modern vector vfds will autotune, but that's why I'm saying to use a servo
[12:29:52] <Sync_> without direct angle feedback they have problems developing torque down low
[12:29:59] <Duc_mobile> Sync_: isnt a servo just a AC motor with a encoder?
[12:30:05] <enleth> Duc_mobile: a VFD? I'm pretty sure you could
[12:30:14] <OdinYggd> No, Duc_mobile
[12:30:17] <enleth> Duc_mobile: most machine servos are DC
[12:30:22] <OdinYggd> Any motor with an encoder
[12:30:29] <OdinYggd> I've worked with far more permanent magnent DC motors
[12:30:30] <enleth> Many even brushed, funnily enough
[12:30:39] <Duc_mobile> so a AC servo it would be
[12:30:41] <OdinYggd> but a lot of spindles use AC motors
[12:30:56] <Duc_mobile> all of mine are yaskawa AC servo right now
[12:30:59] <Valduare> hi guys
[12:31:03] <OdinYggd> Brushed and brushless DC, AC, it just has to turn when it should and stop when it should, let the encoder and VFD do the rest
[12:31:24] <Valduare> just took apart a large copy machine, got bunch of smooth rods, couple 5phase stepper motors and tons of switches and nice cable management clips etc
[12:31:28] <Sync_> it is Duc_mobile, but that is all the magic
[12:31:29] <enleth> Duc_mobile: frankly, I'd put a brushless servo on the pulley end of the motor shaft and just take care to not power both the servo and the original motor at the same time
[12:32:16] <enleth> (brushless to avoid having the brushes eaten away when running on the AC motor)
[12:33:21] <Duc_mobile> so you should be able to use linuxcnc to control it has a velocity closed loop then with the hitachi VFD, bridgeport AC motor and a encoder on the shaft
[12:33:37] <enleth> yeah, that should work
[12:33:41] <OdinYggd> Easily as long as the VFD has an input that accepts the outputs available on linuxcnc
[12:33:57] <OdinYggd> Mitsubishi VFDs as well, voltage or current control are available
[12:33:59] <Sync_> you could also just replace the spindle motor with a servo all together
[12:34:01] <Duc_mobile> yea currently using -/+10v
[12:34:06] <enleth> OdinYggd: something like 0-20mA or 0-10V shoul be on most VFDs
[12:34:09] <OdinYggd> Yep
[12:34:09] <Sync_> you don't really need both
[12:34:20] <enleth> my chink has 0-10V/0-20mA I/O
[12:34:23] <OdinYggd> 1980s CNCs were usually 0-15v in my experience.
[12:34:24] <Duc_mobile> actually only 0-10v I think
[12:34:40] <OdinYggd> I don't remmeber what the upper limit on the Mitsu D720 is, but I know it responds nicely to 0-5v from an attiny MCU
[12:34:47] <OdinYggd> I built a thermostat for a big fan with one
[12:34:47] <Duc_mobile> nothing orignal left in mine except for the spindle motor
[12:34:50] <enleth> Duc_mobile: so one of the analog outputs on the 7i77 should be able to control that
[12:35:22] <Duc_mobile> enleth: may need to try that. ONly using linear scaled output right now from the 7i77
[12:35:31] <OdinYggd> I'd keep the spindle motor though and just drive it with a VFD and encoder for closed loop
[12:35:39] <OdinYggd> Servos get expensive when they get big
[12:36:00] <OdinYggd> and if you aren't required to make the tiny movements needed for positioning, a regular motor will do the job just as well
[12:36:53] <enleth> Duc_mobile: also, make well sure your VFD can set a minimum and maximum frequency *and* configure a mapping from the 0-10V output
[12:37:06] <enleth> Duc_mobile: to avoid running the motor below 20% or so of the original frequency
[12:37:39] <OdinYggd> 20% is the guideline?
[12:37:54] <OdinYggd> I usually go by sound, and more often than not the motors start sounding terrible below half their rated frequency
[12:38:11] <OdinYggd> 25-30Hz typical minimum for a motor that wasn't designed with inverter duty in mind
[12:38:31] <Duc_mobile> I will have to look into the manual
[12:38:36] <enleth> Duc_mobile: I'm more concerned about cooling
[12:38:47] <Sync_> OdinYggd: my bed drawer is filled with high power servos, so eh
[12:38:50] <enleth> Duc_mobile: the bridgeport motors have integrated fans that pull air through the head
[12:38:54] <enleth> ah
[12:38:56] <enleth> OdinYggd: ^
[12:39:03] <Duc_mobile> yep fan is working good
[12:39:19] <enleth> So below about 20% of the full motor speed it just doesn't suck any air anymore
[12:39:19] <OdinYggd> Yeah they do. iirc they were TEFC motors
[12:39:31] <enleth> And that makes them overheat
[12:39:33] <OdinYggd> The older J-heads were TENC though
[12:39:36] <OdinYggd> They didn't have a fan
[12:39:45] <enleth> More than 20% and it's OK
[12:39:56] <OdinYggd> Depends on the load though, pretty significantly
[12:40:24] <OdinYggd> the airflow produced by the fan is not linear, at low RPM it produces only a tiny fraction of the airflow produced at rated RPM
[12:40:35] <enleth> Anyway, I set the limits to 10-60Hz and mapped the full 0-10V input range to within those limits
[12:40:58] <OdinYggd> To really get the full range out of a motor you'd have to modify it to use an external blower for cooling
[12:41:07] <OdinYggd> That way the blower runs at full RPM all the time, while the motor's own fan is removed
[12:41:18] <OdinYggd> Some of the old school DC spindles I've serviced had that setup
[12:41:51] <OdinYggd> 30 HP DC spindle from the 1970s had a squirrel cage blower on a 120v power connection just to push air through it for cooling
[12:42:46] <Sync_> even today they still do
[12:43:52] <Duc_mobile> I need more power for the spindle on the bridgeport
[12:45:44] <TurBoss> Hi
[12:46:02] <TurBoss> How i can setup 2 pieces in the workbench?
[12:46:12] <TurBoss> and run the same file?
[12:46:56] <TurBoss> G54 G55 ...???
[12:47:45] <evil_ren> yeah thats one way
[12:48:56] <evil_ren> other ways are going to depend on the cam software being used
[12:49:32] <TurBoss> i can get G54 but no G55 G56 etc...
[12:49:36] <TurBoss> i'm on 2.7.4
[12:49:49] <evil_ren> you have to set the zeros independently
[12:50:05] <TurBoss> how?
[12:50:45] <evil_ren> theres an active gcode box, make sure G54 is active, if not type G54 into the MDI console
[12:50:57] <evil_ren> then set zero for first part
[12:51:09] <evil_ren> type G55 into MDI console
[12:51:15] <evil_ren> set zero for second part
[12:52:05] <evil_ren> i could be wrong about details i dont have axis up in froint of me, you can maybe use a dropdown to indicate which workspace you are zero'ing
[12:52:54] <TurBoss> thx I'm testing
[12:53:00] <evil_ren> fyi, g53 is machine space, and the g5x workspaces are all relative to that
[12:53:26] <evil_ren> if you want to do a movement in g53 coordinates, you have to put g53 in every line you want to move in machine space
[12:53:56] <OdinYggd> Some machines have a cancel work coordinate gcode though, which resets it to absolute positioning- relative to the home locations
[12:54:08] <evil_ren> its not modal, like the workspaces, for those you just have to type the workspace (like G54, G55) and it sticks
[12:54:21] <OdinYggd> But normally G54-G59 are work coordinates
[12:55:06] <evil_ren> yeah youre starting to get into the inconsistent features and implimentation side of things, with multiple workspaces
[12:55:29] <evil_ren> pretty linuxcnc handles it fine, i used to use them for stuff
[12:55:40] <evil_ren> ^sure
[13:02:23] <enleth> OdinYggd: yeah, adding a separate blower is an option, although I'd have to find a very flat radial blower to fit under the fan cover
[13:02:34] <TurBoss> Axis has a gui button to set the regular offsets but I can get it working
[13:02:46] <enleth> and possibly cut off the shaft stub that mounts the original fan
[13:02:50] <TurBoss> only seems to work for G54
[13:03:13] <gregcnc> but how often will you be running at 10Hz at high torque with high duty cycle?
[13:03:17] <TurBoss> what i'm doing wrong?
[13:03:56] <Duc_mobile> TurBoss: does your Gcode have the G54, or G55 for each part
[13:04:32] <TurBoss> none of them
[13:04:55] <TurBoss> i have the linux cnc example
[13:05:09] <OdinYggd> The mastercam postprocessors I used always left a blank line after the mode setting line, which was for the operator to put in what part offset to use
[13:05:27] <OdinYggd> It was possible to stitch together multiple programs into one big one by giving them each a different offset and having all the tools needed in the carousel
[13:05:46] <gregcnc> the program must call G54 then the code and G55 and the code
[13:05:59] <TurBoss> ok
[13:06:01] <TurBoss> thx
[13:06:55] <gregcnc> So you can use sub programs or just copy it all beneath the first and in place of g54 use g55
[13:07:26] <gregcnc> there are many ways to attack this the docs do a good job explaining
[13:08:23] <TurBoss> ok i got it
[18:09:59] <Deejay> gn8
[19:57:41] <enleth> https://youtu.be/1mfz2lJRSHo?t=17m19s
[20:27:45] <enleth> BTW, I like it how some bridgeport knockoffs go as far as having the head casting absolutely identical to the original 2J head
[20:27:55] <enleth> they just don't give a damn
[20:32:08] <SpeedEvil> I am unsure - I think that at least in the UK - any rights to the specific design expire after ~25 years
[20:32:47] <enleth> yeah, that's probably the case here
[20:34:13] <enleth> but still, there's a slight difference, if only on a purely philosophical level, between designing something by following an existing machine *very* closely and just, I guess, outright making a mold ouf a brand machine parts
[20:34:56] <enleth> the column, ram, knee, spindle drive housing, saddle and table vary between those knockoffs a lot
[20:35:18] <enleth> but the lower head casting is near damn identical in most I've seen
[20:35:30] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I agree
[20:35:45] <SpeedEvil> But actually having fully exchangable parts...
[20:35:58] <enleth> I guess they just couldn't be bothered to design a pretty complex casting that houses a dozen or so interconnected mechanisms
[20:36:16] <SpeedEvil> you're not going to get parts for Bridgeportknockoff in 25 years
[20:36:36] <SpeedEvil> Though you might 3d print them in cast iron :)
[20:36:54] <enleth> I suppose this is a point in their favor - at least the quill feed and such parts will fit
[20:37:47] <Sync_> well, it is an old tradition to make full clones
[20:38:06] <Sync_> I mean, if you can sell them cheaper at comparable or usable quality, why not
[20:38:50] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if anyone cares about the name anymore
[20:39:02] <SpeedEvil> - if you start clalling the things you're selling bridgeports
[20:41:15] <enleth> oh, one interesting thing I noticed a long time ago in my mill - the drawings in the service manual clearly depict a worm gear-based left to right head tram adjuster just by the ground pivot disk thing that centers the head on the ram, but the machine actually has an eccentric busing on one of the four bolts that attach the head to the ram and the casting doesn't give even a slightest hint of any features
[20:41:21] <enleth> to accommodate that mechanism
[20:41:57] <enleth> as far as I can tell, this is the only discrepancy between the drawings and the machine, I wonder what's the story behind this
[20:42:24] <enleth> *bushing
[20:42:25] <Sync_> "it was cheaper"
[20:42:59] <enleth> sure this is the reason behind the change
[20:43:06] <enleth> cheaper and possibly sturdier
[20:43:32] <Sync_> one of the machines in my school had a work gear
[20:43:38] <Sync_> it's nice but takes up space
[20:43:49] <enleth> but they must have machined the pocket where the worm gear sat, otherwise there would be some remnant of that in the casting
[20:44:14] <enleth> or maybe it turned out to weaken the casting too much, justifying new molds?
[20:44:58] <enleth> whatever the reason, someone must have forgot to update the drawings
[20:46:33] <enleth> anyway I find it easier to just take a rubber mallet to the varidrive housing, it's much higher up on this head than on a normal 2J2 to leave room for the quill ball screw, so even a gentle tap gets some nice leverage
[20:46:53] <enleth> the eccentric bushing is too finicky
[20:50:45] <XXCoder> heys
[20:52:01] <XXCoder> what the fuck https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/future--22#/
[20:54:01] <enleth> ah, the garden variety bullshit-spewing startup-founding out-of-touch-with-reality moron
[20:54:33] <XXCoder> yeah
[20:54:41] <XXCoder> it doesnt not even state much details
[20:54:57] <enleth> because there are none
[20:54:57] <XXCoder> behind "telsa" I guess trying to make clone of telsa car or whatever
[20:55:10] <XXCoder> that or tyring to clone actual telsa
[20:55:44] <enleth> I reckon this guy is not so much a scammer but rather so much out of his mind to believe that he can do those things
[20:56:10] <XXCoder> to be fair some inventions was done by people fool enough to do it
[20:56:19] <XXCoder> not that I predict that one will be successful.
[20:57:56] <enleth> don't confuse down to the earth people with an unorthodox idea with loonatics who don't have the slightest idea of what it takes to *make* anything
[20:58:05] <XXCoder> enleth: Telsa was a loony
[20:58:18] <XXCoder> I mean, "out there" loony
[20:58:33] <XXCoder> yet we use so much of some of his inventions.
[20:58:48] <SpeedEvil> enleth: see also zano, for example
[20:58:50] <XXCoder> thats how cookie creates current. heh
[20:59:03] <enleth> I'm pretty sure Tesla would bury you under a fuckton of detailed information and keep going if you asked him how exactly he's going to do his stuff
[20:59:07] <SpeedEvil> enleth: I was half tempted to bid on some of the stuff that came up at their going-out-of-buisness sale.
[20:59:24] <SpeedEvil> enleth: 40000 propellors went for $10
[20:59:31] <XXCoder> enleth: Telsa seem to be one of very rare actual mad scientist
[20:59:37] <XXCoder> hell he made death ray
[20:59:53] <XXCoder> too bad we will never know if it was real or not, nor how it worked if it was real.
[20:59:58] <enleth> XXCoder: yeah, a mad *scientist*
[21:00:10] <enleth> I'm also pretty sure this indiegogo guy's eyes would glaze over if you asked him any technical stuff
[21:00:17] <enleth> or he'd started handwaving things away
[21:00:21] <enleth> *start
[21:00:25] <SpeedEvil> His latter work was not quite insane at teh time. And not quite unreasonable.
[21:00:36] <SpeedEvil> But unfortunately now is understood to be crackpottery
[21:00:44] <XXCoder> stupid comic but works heh http://d.justpo.st/media/images/2014/07/1949eafb36d14622eb9fca569a54c3d3.jpg
[21:00:45] <SpeedEvil> Radio just doesn't work the way he thought it did
[21:02:03] <enleth> I've had the misfortune of meeting a few people like that. like this guy who genuinely believes he can somehow use an OpenBCI-style set of electrodes and other EEG stuff to establish a link between his brain and a computer and *write software for his brain*
[21:02:07] <enleth> like, he's for real
[21:02:16] <enleth> he doesn't *understant* jack shit of any of it
[21:02:34] <XXCoder> guy may acciently do it, even with wrong concept
[21:02:35] <enleth> *understand, damn, my typing tonight
[21:02:51] <XXCoder> the whole plastic thing? total accient. same for vulcanized rubber
[21:03:00] <enleth> XXCoder: not gonna happen. He doesn't have any useful knowledge of the maths, science or technology behind it.
[21:03:23] <XXCoder> yeah not very likely. which is almost same but not same as impossible.
[21:03:37] <XXCoder> even D1000 rolls 1000 if rolled enough times
[21:03:45] <enleth> The accidental inventors of the old times were at least actual technicians/scientists/whatever even if what they did to become famous was way over their heads at the moment
[21:04:17] <enleth> it's as if some bloke with a quadcopter and fireworks started gathering money to become the next SpaceX
[21:04:32] <enleth> D1000^1000 maybe
[21:04:39] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX are going into machining.
[21:04:52] <SpeedEvil> They have found a way to rapidly punch large holes in 20mm sheet steel.
[21:05:22] <enleth> is that an elaborate barge crash landing joke?
[21:05:35] <XXCoder> 20mm thick eh
[21:05:40] <XXCoder> thats... thick.
[21:05:45] <SpeedEvil> enleth: yes
[21:07:31] <SpeedEvil> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766.msg1502593#msg1502593 - pic of hole
[21:07:38] <SpeedEvil> (ignore the red circle)
[21:08:04] <gregcnc> enelth do you know http://www.new4stroke.com/
[21:08:13] <gregcnc> enleth
[21:08:21] <SpeedEvil> The velocity is uncertain - but it's ~20 tons hitting at ~40m/s++
[21:08:35] <enleth> anyway, I think loony ideas are likely to be put forth by the people occupying both extremes of the intellect bell curve - those who are so incapable of grasping the world around them that everything seems simple and magical to them because any details just escape them, and those who have the capacity to see beyond the details, brushing over them as a mere inconvenience, to notice things no one saw before
[21:08:41] <enleth> in there
[21:08:44] <enleth> the difference is in the results.
[21:09:14] <SpeedEvil> the latter class also can be extremely vulnerable to lock-in
[21:09:15] <XXCoder> enleth: yeah I saw "articles" by people that think making up bullshit terms like singleions or whatever makes em scientist.
[21:09:28] <SpeedEvil> and being so utterly certain they are right
[21:09:52] <XXCoder> wrong-bildness is one of bad things that can happen
[21:10:04] <XXCoder> *blindness
[21:10:19] <enleth> that brain programming guy didn't even understand what a CPU does, his understanding of programming stuff was as deep as "you click compile in the arduino IDE and the LED blinks!" - no wonder he thought it would be as easy with his brain
[21:11:03] <XXCoder> current theories say brain is basically a massively parallel cpu but know what? earlier it was gears and so on. :P
[21:11:06] <SpeedEvil> enleth: to be fair, it might be - it is easier with simple brains
[21:11:17] <enleth> I guess that's the joke
[21:11:18] <XXCoder> it will change again and again till we truly understand brains
[21:11:24] <XXCoder> lol SpeedEvil
[21:12:44] <enleth> gregcnc: well that's new indeed
[21:12:59] <SpeedEvil> We need a proper model of the neurone and how its plasticity and learning happens
[21:13:19] <SpeedEvil> Then really good larger level simulations can be made
[21:13:23] <XXCoder> yeah we need a way to understand how memories is stored.
[21:13:28] <SpeedEvil> you don't need a particularly accurate neurone even
[21:13:45] <SpeedEvil> as its parameters change enormously when drunk or old, and you've still got a mind.
[21:13:47] <enleth> gregcnc: I'd say it's crazy complex, but then I realized I'd be saying that a hunk of 200-something fast moving parts that have liquid dinosaurs explode inbetween them thousands of times every second are *simple*
[21:13:59] <gregcnc> well I think he's lost his mind he's all over forums and his "ideas" keep degrading over time.
[21:14:00] <enleth> so I'll just pass up on evaluating that
[21:14:19] <gregcnc> the engine idea is sound, but was smoehting he dreamed up in the 80's?
[21:15:52] <gregcnc> he's now into the over unity realm and doesn't even see it
[21:17:36] <enleth> gregcnc: I just noticed I've heard of this guy before
[21:17:49] <enleth> lots of conspiracy theorists support him
[21:18:01] <gregcnc> oh yeah, he'd fit right in there
[21:18:34] <gregcnc> you can't have a technical discussion with him
[21:18:44] <SpeedEvil> I hate people like that.
[21:19:00] <SpeedEvil> They tend to start off with random obscure technical point they want answers to.
[21:19:35] <SpeedEvil> Before revealing that they want to make a overunity device using epoxy and ground up railroad-ties.
[21:19:51] <SpeedEvil> And yes, that is an actual example.
[21:21:01] <yasnak> ann coulter's voice or harmonic chatter. go!
[21:21:22] <XXCoder> overunity, hell, unity, isnt possible. there will be always losses. if you hear, feel it running, its losing energy to vibrations and sound
[21:22:11] <XXCoder> in general earth do seem to have overunity, but then consider that it has one BIIIIIG battery powering it..
[21:25:11] <bobo_> PetefromTn: you all packed up and ready for the big move ?
[21:25:34] <gregcnc> I leave you with this good night http://news.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/news/photos/000/808/80808.jpg
[21:27:13] <malcom2073> Haha oh man, I love over-unity people
[21:28:17] <malcom2073> I got to meet, and unfortunatly had to sit next to and deal with one of the HHO people a year ago
[21:28:20] <PetefromTn_> bobo_ getting there man ;)
[21:29:35] <XXCoder> gregcnc: nice pic!
[21:29:40] <PetefromTn_> I posted a craigslist ad today getting rid of a BUNCH of junk and all that metal scrap and I sold off my kids Go kart and my old 110v Wire feed welder I never use anymore.
[21:29:51] <PetefromTn_> put a bunch of cash in my pocket for the trip ;)
[21:30:14] <bobo_> so two more day's worth or two more weeks worth of packing up to do ?
[21:30:25] <PetefromTn_> I think I have finally finished the work I needed to do on the house yesterday. We are having a final walk thru tomorrow for the sale
[21:30:42] <PetefromTn_> well we close on Mar21 so we gotta be completely out by then.
[21:32:40] <bobo_> don't let the crazy stuff get to you. there is a end to it
[21:33:04] <PetefromTn_> yeah I gotta be honest I was getting kinda down about all the work I had to do on the house this week...
[21:33:23] <PetefromTn_> but it is pretty much all done now so I just have to deal with moving the machines and all our stuff.
[21:33:30] <PetefromTn_> We managed to sell a BUNCH of stuff
[21:33:46] <PetefromTn_> I gave away the DIY blast cabinet I made because I don't want to move it
[21:33:53] <PetefromTn_> guy is coming in the morning to get it
[21:35:41] <PetefromTn_> I told my kids I would get them a racing Go Kart once we are in Florida because where we are going riding the off road kart is not gonna work too well LOL
[21:36:54] <bobo_> you going to take the 220volt feed wire to shop wire with you ?
[21:37:49] <PetefromTn_> Oh yeah the heavy wire going to the machines is coming with me that shit is expensive LOL
[21:40:39] <PetefromTn_> Should be finished packaging up the machines by tomorrow afternoon hopefully.
[21:42:02] <Sync_> PetefromTn_: build a gixxercart
[21:43:51] <bobo_> hope the weather is good for the machine moving. allways got me to be moving stuff in rain or snow
[21:45:17] <PetefromTn_> Sync_ I have considered making a high powered kart. I think I would like to get them onto a factory racing kart and do some local circuit racing tho. It would be fun.
[21:45:30] <PetefromTn_> bobo_ no idea what the weather is supposed to be really...
[21:47:39] <Sync_> yeah PetefromTn_
[21:48:05] <Sync_> I helped a friend with his kart racing, rebuilding those engines all the time got a drag real fast
[21:48:37] <CaptHindsight> bummer
[21:50:01] <PetefromTn_> really? I did not think the Briggs motors had to be rebuilt all that often
[21:50:59] <Sync_> if you are racing with a briggs, yeah
[21:51:49] <bobo_> what size Briggs engines ?
[21:54:58] <Sync_> the KZ engine we ran had piston swap intervals of 10h
[21:55:06] <Sync_> which was basically every race weekend
[21:55:41] <PetefromTn_> KT100?
[21:56:13] <PetefromTn_> You won't believe this guys...
[21:56:20] <Sync_> tm kz 10b
[21:56:37] <PetefromTn_> awhile ago I met a guy here who had a product he was trying to bring to market
[21:56:54] <PetefromTn_> he met me and we started working together on parts of it
[21:57:02] <PetefromTn_> I did a lot of prototype work for him
[21:57:16] <PetefromTn_> the product requires a good bit of Tig welding too
[21:57:43] <PetefromTn_> so I did that altho I admit at the time I was not that great at it yet but the parts looked decent so he was happy
[21:57:50] <PetefromTn_> Then I got the VMC
[21:58:01] <PetefromTn_> and it took awhile to get the thing working/retrofit
[21:58:20] <PetefromTn_> during this time he found some local shops to do much of this work
[21:58:33] <PetefromTn_> I still did some occasional work and welding for him tho
[21:58:40] <Sync_> and now you need a lathe ;)
[21:58:42] <PetefromTn_> then it just stopped awhile go
[21:59:05] <PetefromTn_> then I got the VMC working and started making parts with it for local shops and my own business
[21:59:31] <PetefromTn_> tried to get back with him and practically begged him to let me do the work again but he said he already had another guy doing it.
[21:59:43] <PetefromTn_> Have not heard from him in months
[21:59:58] <PetefromTn_> tried to get with him on the stuff several times over the last year ors o
[22:00:00] <PetefromTn_> so
[22:00:24] <PetefromTn_> Now I just sold my house and my VMC is all getting packed up for the move
[22:00:50] <PetefromTn_> Opened my Email this afternoon and he has a BIG project he wants me to run entirely myself...
[22:01:16] <PetefromTn_> I have not told him yet I am moving but needless to say I seriously doubt I will get the work considering I will be so far away.
[22:01:47] <bobo_> so now there is a offer that you can't afford to move to Fla becase of ?
[22:02:15] <PetefromTn_> oh hell no man we are committed now
[22:02:35] <PetefromTn_> this is not THAT_BIG_A _JOB at least I don't think it is.
[22:02:59] <PetefromTn_> it is a cool project tho and there would be some production work for sure along with a lot of Tig welding.
[22:04:03] <Sync_> pfft, house sellers backing out of the deal, had that happen when I wanted to buy a house
[22:04:44] <PetefromTn_> well that's just it man.. I don't want to back out. I REALLY REALLY want to be in Florida.
[22:05:18] <PetefromTn_> I think that there will be a lot more work opportunity there let alone the nice year round weather and other nice aspects.
[22:07:24] <bobo_> hope this project possibility has a big influence on the new house decision.
[22:08:09] <PetefromTn_> who knows maybe I can do some or all of it from Florida... its not beyond the realm of possibility
[22:08:28] <PetefromTn_> I will call him here tomorrow morning and see what he says but I am not gonna hold my breath.
[22:10:25] <bobo_> why not try to meet up with him. face to face allways seemed to be more than a phone call
[22:11:39] <PetefromTn_> well he is my friend actually we ride recumbent bikes together LOL I just have not heard from him in awhile since this happened. He was loving the parts I was making before tho LOL
[22:12:13] <Sync_> oh recumbents, I should get me one of those
[22:12:29] <PetefromTn_> they are nice, I built mine
[22:13:24] <Sync_> I'd probably get killed tho
[22:13:28] <Sync_> with the cars here
[22:14:09] <PetefromTn_> Personally I think recumbents are safer than traditional diamond frame bikes.
[22:14:22] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: what if its billion part order, just minute per part and $75 per part?
[22:14:32] <PetefromTn_> once you get used to the different position
[22:14:46] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder Oh don't worry man I am never that lucky ;)
[22:14:53] <XXCoder> heh me either
[22:15:51] <Sync_> why would they be safer PetefromTn_?
[22:16:39] <bobo_> Fla will have the weather for prototype trials
[22:16:39] <PetefromTn_> Well for several reasons
[22:16:56] <PetefromTn_> for one since you are riding with your feet forward
[22:17:15] <PetefromTn_> if somehow you have a bad crash into something hard your feet go first instead of your facce
[22:17:21] <PetefromTn_> face
[22:17:43] <PetefromTn_> mine sits lower to the ground so if I were to fall I am not falling quite as far
[22:18:18] <PetefromTn_> also the way you fall is more of kind of a layover than an over the handlebars thing which honestly gets people killed relatively often on diamond frame bikes
[22:18:55] <PetefromTn_> the main thing I like however is the fact that the damn thing is SO comfortable to ride
[22:19:15] <Sync_> if you go over the bars you have to crash into something that eats your front wheel
[22:19:17] <PetefromTn_> I can literally ride it all day long with little effort and my butt does not get numb etc.
[22:19:28] <Sync_> so can I on my regular bike
[22:20:28] <PetefromTn_> OK well I won't argue with you then. I have owned both of all sorts and I really like my recumbent. If I were to get another bike I would get another recumbent hopefully a lowracer or something..
[22:21:11] <Sync_> well, I ride a lot so eh
[22:21:30] <Sync_> the problems I see are lower visibility and lower dynamics
[22:24:31] <bobo_> Sync_ arn't you in europe vers crash into bikes US
[22:24:42] <Sync_> I mean, I do like recumbents but they don't seem to be safer
[22:24:46] <Sync_> yes I am
[22:24:55] <PetefromTn_> I find that most people who are used to typical Diamond frame bikes cannot be talked into trying a recumbent for various reasons. personally as I said having owned both I much prefer the recumbent.
[22:25:45] <Sync_> I have tried them, I just don't own them
[22:26:39] <PetefromTn_> another thing I like about them is that there are many different varieties and layouts etc.
[22:28:33] <PetefromTn_> http://www.recumbent-cycle.com/images/velo/21/2.jpg I have a friend with one of these
[22:28:51] <PetefromTn_> he let me ride it one time and it is very very nice and quite fast
[22:29:21] <Sync_> well, fast is obvious due to the improved aero
[22:29:27] <Sync_> that is why the uci banned them
[22:30:04] <PetefromTn_> yeah it is well known the fastest bicycles in the world by far are recumbents. they are not the best climbing hills tho some are better than others.
[22:31:52] <Sync_> I missed being able to bunnyhop curbs and stuff when I rode one for a while and trackstanding was iffy for me
[22:31:59] <Sync_> I guess the latter would get better with time
[22:32:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah they are not made for tricks or bunnyhops LOL
[22:33:57] <Sync_> yeah, made it boring
[22:34:08] <PetefromTn_> hehe
[22:34:45] <Sync_> also made my commute suck as I have to hop some curbs there to be efficient
[22:34:47] <PetefromTn_> If there is one thing I can count on from you is that you ALWAYS are on the other side of the equation from anything I say it is almost amusing sometimes.
[22:35:16] <zeeshan> its getting warm in here
[22:35:25] <zeeshan> and it is happenign without me
[22:35:26] <zeeshan> :{
[22:36:08] <Sync_> nah, I'm not PetefromTn_
[22:36:11] <Sync_> expectation bias
[22:36:11] <PetefromTn_> Well I gotta get to bed I got a LOT of stuff to do tomorrow
[22:36:16] <Sync_> I like your welds!
[22:36:37] <PetefromTn_> Ok Gn8
[22:36:42] <bobo_> hope you two are factoring inthe difference of thinking between Europe a US. Europe where homes may be 100s of years old vers US where homes are lucky to be 100s of months old
[22:36:57] <OdinYggd> That's a thing too
[22:37:09] <OdinYggd> But I've lived in 100 year old houses, and I know 200 year old houses actually exist
[22:37:13] <OdinYggd> In America
[22:43:40] <XXCoder> yeah
[22:43:51] <XXCoder> There is buildings older than usa
[22:44:02] <XXCoder> though probably very few remain.
[22:44:45] <OdinYggd> Most of them preserved historic sites
[22:44:48] <OdinYggd> And only on the east coast US
[22:45:15] <OdinYggd> The rest of the country has a mere handful of such things, most of them not even close to european layous
[22:45:16] <XXCoder> I went to school in washington state, and school itself is sited right over old and first Fort Vancouver
[22:45:17] <OdinYggd> *layouts
[22:45:41] <XXCoder> Each time school does a improvement they carrfully check for fort artificts
[22:46:04] <XXCoder> Second Fort Vancouver is rebuilt, and I toured it once and it was enjoyable.
[22:46:55] <XXCoder> native americans set first one on fire. second one was much clsoer to coast and much more defendable
[22:59:04] <XXCoder> OdinYggd: those forts is one of oldest western sitres
[22:59:11] <XXCoder> isnt history fun
[22:59:14] <OdinYggd> Yep
[22:59:40] <OdinYggd> but that isn't a house either.
[22:59:56] <XXCoder> Oh I know heh
[23:14:53] <zeeshan> i really dont know why car manufacturers use all sorts of weird ass brackets
[23:14:55] <zeeshan> to mount shit
[23:15:12] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/2a5gj6P.jpg
[23:15:16] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/2XOX6ma.jpg
[23:15:17] <XXCoder> its not engineering till theres in least one weird bracket.
[23:15:22] <zeeshan> seriously
[23:15:41] <zeeshan> im glad i modeled it correct
[23:17:31] <Sync_> hah nice
[23:17:49] <XXCoder> nice yeah
[23:17:58] <zeeshan> i cant think of a logical reason
[23:18:00] <zeeshan> why they do this
[23:18:04] <zeeshan> its not just mazda, its mitsu too
[23:18:07] <zeeshan> and nissan and gm
[23:30:36] <Sync_> zeeshan: probably because they have that strange die in some of their presses
[23:33:56] <OdinYggd> Cause they have to make it their custom style
[23:34:11] <OdinYggd> And when you can make a million of them a year, you can afford to make the tooling to make custom pressed brackets
[23:34:16] <OdinYggd> So each chassis has its own style of bracket
[23:37:05] <zeeshan> its annoying!
[23:47:51] <toastyde2th> similar: google's switches
[23:52:02] <toastyde2th> i'm sad there don't seem to be any inexpensive edge switches that will do openflow