#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-12-25

[00:35:44] <FloppyDisk> @irontree9: Hiwinn is another. Kollmorgen linear slides use hiwinn (and not thomson - both danaher right next to each other?)
[00:36:16] <FloppyDisk> nb corporation is another... Good stuff there.
[01:11:45] <XXCoder> hey pink_vampire
[01:11:50] <XXCoder> been a while
[01:24:47] <toastydeath> god damn i really want to go to this
[01:24:48] <toastydeath> https://www.blackhat.com/us-15/training/software-exploitation-via-hardware-exploits.html
[01:24:53] <toastydeath> maybe in 2017
[01:25:36] <XXCoder> sex via hex .com
[01:25:48] <XXCoder> interesting class though
[01:26:14] <toastydeath> i don't think it would make sense if i took it though, i have no experience/interest in exploits per se, just in reverse engineering
[01:26:29] <XXCoder> sometimes they go in hand I think
[01:26:39] <XXCoder> gonna breaj to access after all
[01:26:46] <toastydeath> they do, but i'd be afraid of just not having the common language
[01:26:52] <toastydeath> or skillset
[01:26:59] <toastydeath> we'll see in a year if i've gone in that direction or not, i guess
[01:27:08] <XXCoder> cool, but wow expensive,.
[01:27:17] <toastydeath> would rather do that vs a cruise
[01:30:01] <XXCoder> reverse engineering job?
[01:30:24] <toastydeath> nope, i like tools as a hobby and how they work/modifying them is probably the thing i like best
[01:30:36] <toastydeath> it's why I went off to learn machining
[01:30:54] <toastydeath> modifying/making physical parts, learning to do things accurately/improve things that suck
[01:31:03] <toastydeath> i'm starting in on the electrical side
[01:31:44] <XXCoder> nice
[01:31:56] <XXCoder> if you take that class you probably can learn how to root devices
[01:32:00] <XXCoder> some of em anyway
[01:32:06] <toastydeath> yeah, and i don't even really need root?
[01:32:07] <XXCoder> nobody can root kindle pw2 so far.
[01:32:16] <XXCoder> sometimes its very handy.
[01:32:24] <toastydeath> i just want to get firmware off chips and figure out what different things are expecting
[01:32:28] <toastydeath> purely reverse engineering
[01:32:43] <XXCoder> I got a cheap acer tablet, rooted it because it has one app that asks to enable anomyous data collection each hour.
[01:32:47] <toastydeath> the injection side is neat because there are some oppertunities on physical equipment to change and upgrade hardware
[01:33:03] <toastydeath> but none of the stuff i want to work on is like... consumer electronics
[01:33:57] <toastydeath> reading/writing flash memory to change parameters on motor drivers and so on
[01:34:29] <XXCoder> heard extracting some firmware can be hard
[01:34:42] <XXCoder> but nothing beats just desoldering chip and readout
[01:34:55] <toastydeath> can be, yeah - but from what I understand it's more an issue in stuff like the kindle/iphone/etc
[01:34:56] <XXCoder> heard of that anyway, never did anything like that,
[01:35:04] <toastydeath> yeah, that's my main thing
[01:35:09] <archivist> one sets the flag to stop the chip being read :)
[01:35:25] <toastydeath> a lot of industrial gear has no such thing in place
[01:35:41] <toastydeath> so it's just a jtag header and you don't have to desolder anything
[01:35:57] <toastydeath> plus the documentation for all of that is waaay more available
[01:36:24] <XXCoder> there is pretty simple serial root for kindle paperwhite 2
[01:36:25] <toastydeath> schematics, serial clock timings, internal protocols
[01:36:31] <XXCoder> but I dont want o open case.
[01:36:36] <archivist> I have been on both sides, reverse engineering and protecting my code
[01:37:35] <archivist> relly funny when you get requests for info why your code does not work in an unmodified device
[01:38:28] <toastydeath> lol what?
[01:38:36] <XXCoder> lol
[01:39:18] <archivist> I put a blob of solder on the pcb and looked for it in code, by putting it in the servo calcs
[01:39:25] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[01:39:34] <toastydeath> that's goddamn awesome
[01:39:51] <archivist> hackers would say the head hits the side!
[01:41:14] <archivist> I had reversed the code in the printer added functions etc, we were selling it for a lot higher price, so protected the mods
[01:42:25] <XXCoder> http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/comic/147-back-in-mac
[01:42:34] <XXCoder> outdated but funny
[01:44:03] <toastydeath> i just wanna run instrumentation with missing PC controls =(
[01:44:53] <toastydeath> or fix broken stuff
[01:45:09] <toastydeath> but i am still so new on the electronics side that it is all intimidating
[01:45:15] <toastydeath> GOTTA TRY ANYWAY I GUESS!
[01:45:36] <archivist> yup, get all the right toys for that
[01:45:58] <toastydeath> yeah, i'm building up the arsenal now
[01:46:19] <archivist> data collecting to "see" how something works, or doesnt
[01:46:54] <toastydeath> my basic plan is to try and get a decent understanding of some of the analog principles, which i need to really just start labbing out
[01:47:04] <toastydeath> pen and paper only get a person so far before it's just mental masturbation
[01:47:36] <toastydeath> my dad gave me this giant book of circuits, divided by category, and how they're designed
[01:47:39] <archivist> I do see many struggle if they dont get the tools
[01:47:42] <toastydeath> so there's a whole chapter on amplifiers
[01:47:51] <toastydeath> with increasingly more complex designs as it goes on
[01:48:06] <toastydeath> yeah, I am struggling now because I am using shit i've had around
[01:48:38] <toastydeath> I've decided to go with some of the older HP/Agilent gear, like the hp 3556a voltmeter which i really want two of
[01:48:47] <toastydeath> 150-200 each on ebay, so that's easy
[01:49:06] <toastydeath> i have the money around to get a good scope
[01:49:33] <archivist> I need some rectifiers to resurrect a tool I think you would want,
[01:49:35] <toastydeath> haven't really decided on a strategy for power supply or sig gen yet but i'm still deciding
[01:49:53] <XXCoder> sigh I have no idea why I can't get off my ass and do stuff
[01:49:54] <toastydeath> there is an old hp function gen that looks really good for what I want to do
[01:50:22] <toastydeath> archivist?
[01:50:31] <archivist> the tool to look out for for analog motor systems is "dynamic system analyser"
[01:50:56] <toastydeath> but basically from there I'm just gonna get a bunch of discrete parts and design/put together small circuits
[01:51:06] <toastydeath> try to fix some of the broken shit around my apartment
[01:51:27] <archivist> it stimulates the thing under test an measures its response
[01:51:27] <toastydeath> i've never heard of a dynamic system analyzer?
[01:52:21] <archivist> aits a signal source, then network analyser bit with the ability for spectrum analysis
[01:52:27] <toastydeath> oh, yes
[01:52:53] <toastydeath> there's an old HP vector network analyzer that goes down to DC
[01:53:05] <toastydeath> it's one of the few i've found that isn't built for communications
[01:53:24] <toastydeath> has a bunch of test sets you can get for it for different network parameters
[01:53:38] <toastydeath> definitely a wishlist item though =(
[01:53:47] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=3562a
[01:53:57] <toastydeath> THAT'S IT
[01:54:14] <toastydeath> that and it's bigger brother
[01:54:23] <toastydeath> i think i have the # written down here somewhere
[01:54:25] <Contract_Pilot> Dealing with china is fun "Not"
[01:54:33] <toastydeath> archivist, how useful do you find it is?
[01:54:37] <toastydeath> for motor analysis
[01:54:48] <archivist> it is not useful dead grrrrrrr
[01:54:55] <toastydeath> b/c/ my fear was "oh hey what a nice toy that isn't useful for me"
[01:55:27] <toastydeath> even though i read a lot of literature that says you can do great things with pwm/pfm if you know the response of the motor
[01:55:40] <archivist> never managed to use it for motors yet as the thing died
[01:55:47] <toastydeath> oh well =(
[01:56:19] <archivist> looking for another or one of its relations
[01:56:59] <toastydeath> have you seen the Signal Path Blog episode where he repairs an oscilloscope that's actually fucked up?
[01:57:02] <archivist> I have the earlier version which is a beast that loads its software off an internal tape recorder
[01:57:08] <toastydeath> hahaha
[01:57:16] <toastydeath> noted, avoid that
[01:57:26] <archivist> tape drive roller fails
[01:59:02] <toastydeath> archivist, it's not this exact one but this is in the family
[01:59:09] <toastydeath> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3577A-NETWORK-ANALYZER-W-HP35677B-S-PARAMETER-TEST-SET-/391343773534?hash=item5b1de8175e:g:wJoAAOSwu4BV6drK
[01:59:11] <pink_vampire> hi XXCoder !!
[01:59:13] <XXCoder> archivist: just add serial connection that fakes tape record
[01:59:33] <XXCoder> there is hard drive tape recorder emulator too
[01:59:39] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: hows ya
[01:59:48] <archivist> first you have to get the code off a tape :)
[02:00:11] <XXCoder> wonder if putting it in audio out and recording it would work lol
[02:00:12] <pink_vampire> I'm fine.. working abit on the pane..
[02:01:02] <pink_vampire> panel*
[02:01:09] <XXCoder> cool :)
[02:01:17] <toastydeath> here it is
[02:01:18] <toastydeath> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-89441A-AYA-Vector-Signal-Analyzer-with-W-CDMA-Capability-DC-to-2-65-GHz-/141492802325?hash=item20f1a0d315:g:0kYAAOSwiCRUfZt3
[02:03:24] <toastydeath> based on the manual it seems like three or four different instruments that hp decided should be in one chassis
[02:04:07] <toastydeath> esp with all the software options on it
[02:07:22] <archivist> looks a bit similar but comms biased
[02:08:29] <toastydeath> it's weird, but yeah - except it goes straight on down to DC, so I could in theory just remove the RF section and use it as is
[02:08:43] <archivist> the fact that its rated to dc does put it in range of useful, iirc mine only gets down to .001 hz
[02:08:57] <toastydeath> it'll do things like bode plots and LCR measurements
[02:09:31] <archivist> it has the source and two inputs like the 3562a
[02:09:42] <archivist> all the rest is code
[02:09:48] <toastydeath> yep, from the manuals at least they're extremely similar hardware wise
[02:10:40] <archivist> ew that sellers feedback is low
[02:11:19] <toastydeath> they pop up a lot at a bunch of different price points, not sure what the deal is
[02:12:19] <archivist> not sure I have seen one over here yet
[02:13:38] <toastydeath> out of curiosity, how do you feel about using kelvin leads on an lcr meter
[02:13:41] <toastydeath> versus desoldering
[02:16:35] <archivist> kelvin leads remove lead effects, rather hard for them to remove the circuit
[02:17:14] <toastydeath> so not super useful overall?
[02:17:19] <archivist> so desolder for proper measurement
[02:17:51] <toastydeath> i figured =(
[02:18:12] <archivist> still need the leads to get up close to a components real value
[02:18:36] <archivist> depends why you want to measure something
[02:18:51] <toastydeath> mostly troubleshooting, not exact values
[02:19:05] <toastydeath> my whole thrust right now is just basically troubleshooting
[02:20:01] <archivist> I use a very high resolution meter to see where a sort is because you can then see the track
[02:20:07] <archivist> short
[02:20:51] <archivist> mainly used on new PCBs where there is a manufacturing fault
[02:21:38] <toastydeath> i have heard of that but i'm still at the stage where i'm trying to gain intuition on what parts are likely to do what
[02:21:43] <archivist> dvm with many digits and a filter(average over many readings)
[02:22:02] <toastydeath> that's the thing i'm focused on next - the dvm
[02:22:13] <toastydeath> because the one i have is just... not good
[02:22:16] <archivist> intuition comes from experience
[02:23:01] <archivist> I got taught fault finding so am lucky :)
[02:23:19] <toastydeath> hahaha
[02:23:24] <toastydeath> gonna have to learn the hard way on my end
[02:23:38] <archivist> if you know the bisect method, its the same thing really
[02:23:39] <toastydeath> fortunately there seem to be a good supply of grizzled old dudes on the internet these days
[02:23:56] <archivist> !.... :)
[02:23:56] <toastydeath> ?
[02:24:04] <toastydeath> bisect method?
[02:24:15] <archivist> divide and conquer
[02:24:32] <archivist> is the fault to the left or right
[02:25:12] <archivist> but first just look at the thing, any lights, can you hear a click at power on
[02:25:57] <archivist> open the box, smell, look carefully for burnt parts
[02:25:58] <toastydeath> hilariously i "fixed" my first thing
[02:26:14] <toastydeath> took a 1ghz oscilloscope apart, checked the supply under load, checked for shorts, etc etc
[02:26:16] <toastydeath> no problems
[02:26:28] <toastydeath> ...plugged all the cables in and it worked.
[02:26:36] <toastydeath> So... loose cable, i guess.
[02:26:48] <archivist> someone brought a tuner for repair the other day, the wire was loose in the plug
[02:26:51] <toastydeath> I have an amplifier i need to fix and i'm almost positive it's the input section
[02:27:14] <toastydeath> because the speaker pops nice and loud when you change the eq switches with the gain up[
[02:27:15] <archivist> amplifiers usually fail at the other end
[02:27:18] <toastydeath> so i assume the amp is fine
[02:27:36] <toastydeath> but i don't have anything to put a signal on the thing
[02:27:47] <toastydeath> to see where it is and isn't going
[02:27:58] <archivist> if stereo and both channels, what is in common
[02:28:03] <toastydeath> it's a mono amp
[02:28:22] <archivist> use a lot of logic in fault finding
[02:28:58] <toastydeath> the board has a lot of passive filters on it so i think it'll be quick once i get an oscilloscope that has the right input and a cheap sig gen
[02:29:04] <archivist> blunderbuss repair is the worst method (replace every part till it works)
[02:29:08] <toastydeath> either the signal's going to leave the board or it won't
[02:29:26] <toastydeath> if it leaves the board i'll have an idea what pins do what on the header and can troubleshoot the amp
[02:29:30] <toastydeath> nothing is obviously damaged
[02:29:50] <toastydeath> it just randomly cut out one day
[02:30:02] <archivist> signal source is a screwdriver pocket into an input
[02:30:10] <archivist> poked
[02:30:21] <Contract_Pilot> Ahhhh feel good tonight
[02:30:32] <archivist> use the mains hum as your source
[02:30:55] <toastydeath> hm! i'm going to go look at that right now on the old ass scope i have to see if it picks it up properly
[02:31:06] <toastydeath> the scope is having problems so i don't completely trust it on things like this
[02:31:11] <toastydeath> which makes it somewhat useless
[02:31:52] <toastydeath> something is wrong with the grounding inside it
[02:31:57] <toastydeath> (or so i think)
[02:32:19] <archivist> most scopes have a cal signal too, use that to check the scope
[02:32:28] <toastydeath> the timebase sometimes stops randomly, the deflection will drift even when grounded on on the cal output
[02:32:39] <toastydeath> noise while grounded, noise on cal, etc
[02:32:48] <toastydeath> and I was able to check the cal on a much better scope and it looked great
[02:33:00] <archivist> time for it to be repaired then
[02:33:02] <toastydeath> ya
[02:33:11] <toastydeath> it's another project, but i have to get a good voltmeter and a good scope
[02:33:35] <Jymmm> toastydeath: HarborFreight =)
[02:33:40] * Jymmm snickers
[02:33:41] <archivist> front panel switches start being unreliable on scopes
[02:34:15] <XXCoder> harbor freight can be good source of tools you put away once you get better tools.
[02:34:28] <archivist> first job is wind the switches and pots end to end a number of times to get the wipers to self clean
[02:35:49] <archivist> shame the shipping is more than the item http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-HP-89441A-Network-Analyzer-S-N-3416A02818-AS-IS-No-Options-/262198276625
[02:37:02] <toastydeath> damn
[02:37:31] <Jymmm> Free for me =)
[02:37:53] <toastydeath> archivist unfortunately the scope grounding is definitely interfering with troubleshooting
[02:38:04] <toastydeath> but that's a damn neat trick
[02:38:44] <archivist> you might be blaming grounding but hum on the display is a sign of power supply fault
[02:39:12] <archivist> electrolytic failure
[02:39:43] <toastydeath> i don't trust my own first reaction yet, so i'm totally willing to start wherever - but i'm not going to crack it open yet
[02:40:09] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Just look for bubbled caps
[02:40:12] <Jymmm> or leaking ones
[02:40:19] <archivist> toastydeath, the screwdriver trick is also good for antenna inputs to decide customers antenna or TV
[02:41:10] <XXCoder> caps tend to be what breaks stuff when old
[02:41:26] <XXCoder> from what I understand most old hardware can be recovered by replacing caps
[02:43:34] <toastydeath> i don't really want to bust this open yet even though the cause is likely to be visible - i have other things open and disassembled and also without high voltage sections
[02:44:49] <toastydeath> also what's the magic phrase to find a bench precision shunt resistor
[02:44:56] <toastydeath> i see companies that make them but i can't ever find the products for sale
[02:45:47] <archivist> I have never used one
[02:46:50] <archivist> I just have a set of draws with resistors in and grab what I want, else wire up a pot
[02:48:11] <Deejay> moin
[02:54:28] <pink_vampire> Deejay: hi
[02:56:17] <Deejay> hi pink_vampire
[02:56:23] <Deejay> merry xmas to everyone \o/
[02:59:32] <pink_vampire> my christmas is a good time to work abit on the machine.
[03:04:54] <Deejay> yeah :)
[03:09:22] <XXCoder> merry xmas :)
[03:11:17] <Deejay> hi XXCoder :)
[03:36:57] <_abc_> Has someone got a working command line for running linuxcnc in sim mode under qemu? I get errors like: "RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED." and "halcmd[somepid]: segfault at 8 ip ... error 4 in liblinuxcnchal.so.0[etc etc]"
[03:57:20] <_abc_> Is there a way to run the stock live cd (2.7) under qemu with a non rtai enabled kernel which does not care about apic and other qemu issues?
[03:57:52] <archivist> the stock live cd has a sim version on it
[03:58:16] <_abc_> I don't see it. There's pae and non pae live, I ran the non pae.
[04:01:11] <archivist> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LinuxCNC_Pure_Simulator
[04:01:55] <archivist> I bet that page is out of date anyway
[04:02:30] <archivist> 2012
[04:02:59] <archivist> I hate wikis for going out of date
[04:03:16] <_abc_> Yeah I have the current 2.7 which is apparently based on xfce desktop. And runs dog slow on my old qemu.
[04:04:05] <archivist> I would run on a native box
[04:05:16] <_abc_> I hate wikis which also hide the posting date
[04:05:29] <_abc_> I already have it on native boxes. Need a sim env.
[04:05:38] <archivist> that does not hide the date, its at the bottom
[04:05:58] <_abc_> No worries, they will change the theme and it will be gone
[04:06:24] <archivist> never seen the them change ever
[04:06:30] <archivist> theme
[04:07:55] <_abc_> okay
[04:08:13] <_abc_> This qemu with no kernel support is dog slow. I really need to stop using 15 year old computers...
[04:09:02] <archivist> but I have always found the live CD to run in sim mode if I wanted it to
[04:09:28] <_abc_> Which option do you choose during boot
[04:09:57] <archivist> I select when choosing a machine config after starting axis
[04:10:42] <_abc_> You can't start axis if the hw faked by qemu does not show an apic
[04:11:12] <archivist> use real hardware
[04:11:32] <_abc_> You are digressing from the question I asked ;)
[04:12:12] <archivist> I dont think anyones tests under qemu, you have the source :)
[04:16:10] <_abc_> I am doing that now. Next.
[04:16:47] <archivist> fix bugs if any :)
[04:17:06] <_abc_> Also the current wheezy based 2.7 iso live has an xfce desktop whcih does not honor lauch icons created by itself.
[04:18:45] <_abc_> *which. Meaning, desktop only shows default icons, file manager shows created launchers, like my-mill
[04:22:22] <_abc_> fwiw the one I have which works *well* is 2.6.0-pre5
[04:22:31] <_abc_> Not with qemu but xfce etc are okay
[04:26:14] <_abc_> Also apic support in qemu seems to be added only after 2013 as a patch. My qemu is older.
[04:26:21] <_abc_> I have another on another machine, will try that too.
[04:47:09] <pink_vampire> someone know about good end mill supplier?
[04:48:45] <_abc_> There are thousands. It's like asking for a red car.
[04:52:54] <XXCoder> yeah no idea either, I just bought cheap ones off amazon for now
[05:08:48] <pink_vampire> I have the grizzly end mills. but half of them die :(
[05:09:44] <pink_vampire> one of them become a necklace
[05:10:33] <XXCoder> hopefully dulled all over
[05:11:35] <pink_vampire> the one on the necklace is new,
[05:20:04] <_abc_> /join ##pcb @^
[05:20:28] <_abc_> Sorry wrong channel
[05:24:03] <pink_vampire> _abc_: thanks! look like a cool place.
[05:27:46] <XXCoder> pcb channel to make circuit boards eh
[05:28:03] <archivist> as is #kicad
[05:29:15] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: I'm using solidworks to make PCBs.. very slow and fastrating
[05:29:34] <archivist> ew the wrong software for that
[05:29:43] <XXCoder> better than my zero progress
[05:30:23] <pink_vampire> archivist: the stack light pcb was in solidworks.
[05:32:40] <archivist> while I have used software for a job it was not designed for, PCB design really needs the right application or a drawing board and reels of tape and a sharp knife
[05:32:54] <pink_vampire> there is a program that you can design the circuit in the program make the layout automatic?
[05:34:03] <archivist> autorouters often make a mess of a pcb
[05:34:14] <XXCoder> archivist: that kicad does render layout, I'm pretty sure can be converted into ncpaths
[05:34:24] <XXCoder> ignoring all chips so on
[05:34:46] <archivist> there are gerber to gcode programs about
[05:36:45] <archivist> one needs a reasonable spacial thinking ability for success
[05:37:22] <enleth> pink_vampire: https://teespring.com/autorouter - there's a reson one of my friends has two of those
[05:39:25] <XXCoder> archivist: lol that IS a mess.
[05:39:31] <XXCoder> er enleth
[05:40:18] <archivist> I never saw the image, useless website
[05:43:40] <pink_vampire> enleth: I'm doing very simple pcbs.
[05:43:49] <XXCoder> I just enabled that domain scrpt and cloudfront and could see pic
[05:44:36] <XXCoder> archivist: http://vangogh.teespring.com/og_pic/2072058/2149896/front.jpg
[05:44:45] <XXCoder> 133t haxer :P
[05:48:16] <archivist> XXCoder, I had an autorouter put vias outside the boarder on an edge connector
[06:30:37] <SpeedEvil> Is anyone aware of any micro manipulator designs done cheap?
[06:31:29] <MattoMatic> doug englebert's flexure one
[06:31:30] <SpeedEvil> Ideal would be a one percent scale human arm, but. ..
[06:31:57] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming muscle wire
[06:32:02] <SpeedEvil> Thanks
[06:32:32] <MattoMatic> it's the manipulations that are miniaturised, not the manipulator
[06:32:52] <MattoMatic> lab ones resemble a microscope table
[06:32:58] <jthornton> lol just looking at my sign up sheet for dial up in 1999 I was running win95
[06:33:42] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[06:34:25] <MattoMatic> ^ dan gelbart
[06:34:30] <SpeedEvil> 98 wasn't very stable for a while
[06:35:00] <SpeedEvil> That would explain why I wasn't finding much
[06:35:44] <MattoMatic> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaypcVFPs48
[06:36:38] <MattoMatic> as it happens, he uses muscle wire in his flexures, purely because it has good fatigue life
[06:40:27] <MattoMatic> I still have my 1999 machine running win95. it's too nice to throw away. weitek fpu and everything
[06:41:41] <MattoMatic> I paid £8 for it at the time, I needed the VGA monitor :)
[06:42:19] <MattoMatic> but it's a tricked out 386. 12 whole mb and a scsi drive
[06:47:36] <_abc_> MattoMatic: there's freeware dos based 2d cnc. It will run in w95/msdos6.22
[06:48:49] <_abc_> MattoMatic: http://www.dakeng.com/turbo.html
[06:49:07] <_abc_> You need to start the dos window in 'real' mode or boot into dos
[06:49:17] <_abc_> I have not tried to run this in freedos, it could work.
[06:49:36] <_abc_> Okay, shareware, not entirely free
[06:50:50] <_abc_> You need dos >5.0 apparently to run it.
[06:51:00] <_abc_> >=5.0
[06:51:17] <_abc_> MattoMatic: Also 386 will easily run real time kernel etc, just not with gui
[06:51:48] <_abc_> freedos+turbocnc operation confirmed by at least 1 forum message http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3176
[06:52:05] <MattoMatic> win95 is real DOS :)
[06:52:30] <_abc_> Not really. Some programs check for it and balk.
[06:52:50] <MattoMatic> oh yeah, it was 3.11 that could still be run as win /r
[06:52:50] <_abc_> Also you need the 'realtime' mode dos window and there's a way to launch it I forget.
[06:53:05] <MattoMatic> f8 on boot iirc
[06:53:53] <_abc_> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000132.htm MattoMatic voila
[06:54:31] <MattoMatic> it's slower than an arduino. I'd need convicing why
[06:54:44] <_abc_> Your biggest problem will be lack of usb support.
[06:55:12] <_abc_> Iow how to get files in and out. Networking in w95 was <shudder> bad. Really bad. Trumpet winsock anyone? Pre 32 bit?
[06:55:34] <MattoMatic> netware
[06:55:35] <_abc_> MattoMatic: w95 was already written in m$'s best tradition of bloatware with bugs.
[06:55:52] <_abc_> netbios support is not compatible between versions even in 2015.
[06:56:19] <_abc_> You expect that to work with a modern machine? Hah. You will spend the remaining half of your life editing the registry at both ends and rebooting.
[06:57:13] <MattoMatic> I bought win7 for one machine, as I felt I ought to have one working windows machine. I'm not impressed
[06:58:08] <_abc_> Anyway I am impressed dak engineering still maintains that code.
[06:58:08] <MattoMatic> I forgot endless rebooting is a normal operating procedure
[06:58:17] <_abc_> 20 years !
[06:58:35] <MattoMatic> nice job if you can get it
[06:59:34] <MattoMatic> win7 used up 50GB of my 60GB ssd. it feels like I bought a manure farm
[07:01:16] <MattoMatic> in there is 2GB of stuff I need to run windows programs, 1GB of NSA spyware, and 47GB of manure for that 1GB to hide in
[07:01:47] <_abc_> http://www.accesswave.ca/~blandry/ezcnc/abimp.html there's also this
[07:01:51] <_abc_> w95 compatible
[07:02:27] <_abc_> MattoMatic: Don't forget SxS. 60GB will grow forever. Muahaha.
[07:02:44] <_abc_> My old Vista dual boot has SxS consuming about 30GB for an initial 8GB install...
[07:03:17] <_abc_> "if you see some new dlls, copy them to Sxs. If you see some dlls you already have, copy them anyway"
[07:03:29] <_abc_> "if you see them again (reinstall), copy them once more"
[07:03:30] <_abc_> etc
[07:05:35] <_abc_> Someone took the mantra "disk space is cheap" very literally.
[07:06:45] <MattoMatic> I had a cunning plan for p2p dll checking, but that woulda needed a police force with a payroll the size of M$ or kepersky, so I left that to the pros
[07:07:43] <_abc_> No, you only need something like unix find(1) and md5sum but you will fail. m$ has dll's edited for almost every release, including with the same version number and code release date.
[07:07:53] <MattoMatic> yeah I should look into ways of turning off some of this bloat. it can't be 60gb of .net libs
[07:08:34] <XXCoder> _abc_: was a fix to dll hell
[07:08:35] <_abc_> I tried the above cunning plan and it backfired. There are at least 4 different mscvrt.dll 's in my SxS, all with the exact same name, different lengths and seriously different inside (diff -b etc)
[07:09:06] <_abc_> MattoMatic: After XP you can no longer delete SxS repositories. If you do you need to reinstall the software which needs it.
[07:09:47] <_abc_> MattoMatic: even deleting those anyway requires linux mounting the ntfs vulumes for surgery. Fingers crossed etc. See above how it went for me.
[07:10:23] <MattoMatic> that's normal, the multiple msvcrt.dll. each version of vc has at least 2, and then mingw got a gpl rewrite etc etc etc
[07:11:30] <_abc_> example: locate -i 'sbscmp20_mscorwks.dll'|wc -l -> 6
[07:11:31] <_abc_> ...
[07:12:05] <cncbasher> merry christmas everyone
[07:12:07] <_abc_> md5sum $(locate -i 'sbscmp20_mscorwks.dll') -> 2 different checksums
[07:12:21] <MattoMatic> cncbasher and to you :)
[07:12:23] <_abc_> And this goes on and on
[07:13:45] <jthornton> rain starts tonight and doesn't stop till Monday night
[07:13:48] <MattoMatic> meh, I want minimum wage x1.5 to shovel M$ manure on xmas day :)
[07:14:25] <_abc_> You know, since the dot com bust, the old joke about leaving hitech due to lack of skills for burger flipping is no longer funny.
[07:14:36] <_abc_> Because burger flippers make more per hour than some coders.
[07:15:13] <jdh> a good burger is a good burger
[07:15:22] <jdh> vs. php
[07:16:00] <_abc_> Give a man a burger and you feed him once, teach him php and you will have to bear his code forever.
[07:16:09] <MattoMatic> there's only one real coding job left to do AI
[07:16:18] <_abc_> Anyone else VERY ANNOYED by the latest web 3.0 bullshit?
[07:16:45] <MrSunshine> what is that ?
[07:17:06] <MattoMatic> I'm still being anoyed by web 2.0 bullshit. flash player
[07:17:45] <_abc_> MattoMatic: AI is already here, Asimov's laws and all. And when they tried to apply it it ended badly, self driving cars cannot make decisions about killing people as Asimov's laws would demand. Instead, they are working to implement AS (Artificial Stupidity), aka "make machines more human like". Be afraid, very afraid.http://xkcd.com/1613/
[07:18:04] <_abc_> Flash player died this month or so. Again. They are really pulling it.
[07:18:38] <_abc_> Silverlight went dark some time ago. The new thing that will turn your 8GB ram 12GB clocked game machine into an arduino is html5 video.
[07:20:37] <MattoMatic> blender had a great plugin for IE3 that gave you as good as webGL
[07:20:43] <_abc_> Which html5 video is so resource intensive it drops frames massively even on machines which ran the same youtube video flawlessly with flash
[07:20:46] <MattoMatic> probably not secure tho
[07:21:10] <_abc_> Ah yes and they are working on some 3d extensions I forget because 2d slow html5 is not slow enough.
[07:22:05] <_abc_> Ah yes the flash thing: get thy flash player plugins now, from jan 1 Adobe will no longer allow downloads of them excepting with a license.
[07:22:36] <MattoMatic> people love browsers tho. if you make a machine, the network control panel is usually http
[07:22:47] <_abc_> Huh?
[07:22:58] <SpeedEvil> On a related topic, I bought a heart rate tracker. It downloads via Bluetooth to my phone fine. Then uploads to the cloud. Then the mobile app takes ages to connect to the server (it can't display anything without ). Needless to say, without Internet, it doesn't work at all. Not even when the data had previously been downloaded from the cloud.
[07:22:59] <_abc_> Well it's an interface. I prefer snmp or shell though ;)
[07:23:17] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: I assume you are not very happy.
[07:23:21] <SpeedEvil> No
[07:23:28] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: tried to re the protocol and make sense of it locally?
[07:24:02] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: cynically, I think it takes a long time to index you and prepare the ads they will send you before the real data, in between the real data, and forever after
[07:24:18] <_abc_> "customer profile insufficient for ad preparation, postpone gui download"
[07:24:54] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: is on my stack, but...
[07:25:04] <SpeedEvil> No ads
[07:25:15] <_abc_> Really? You mean, not yet, surely?
[07:25:19] <_abc_> Did you pay for the app?
[07:25:22] <SpeedEvil> Probably
[07:25:33] <_abc_> $3.9 or whatever app?
[07:25:38] <SpeedEvil> Free app. From the maker.
[07:25:42] <SpeedEvil> Jawbone
[07:25:42] <_abc_> Okay
[07:25:46] <archivist> falls into the not fit for purpose category
[07:25:55] <_abc_> Hm?
[07:25:58] <SpeedEvil> Arguably, yes
[07:37:37] <Jymmm> Small rant... You MUST register before you can use a Roku, even though you are purchasing no content from them, and they very strongly want your credit card and make it difficult to register without one. Then on top of all that, read the privacy policy, especially where they are allowed to record your voice or anything else you say in the room that it can hear... https://www.roku.com/blank/internal/owner/privacy-policy
[07:38:26] <SpeedEvil> Sigh
[07:39:51] <Jymmm> Merry Christmas Everyone !!!
[07:39:58] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[07:40:26] <MattoMatic> there's that IR spectroscope on kickstarter that does all the pattern matching on their cloud. they'll know what grade your shit is before you do
[07:41:40] <archivist> the cloud can get stuffed I dont like rain
[07:41:47] * MattoMatic writes star trek skit with ads on tricorders
[07:42:04] <Jymmm> lol
[07:42:27] <archivist> I have started serving the ad urls locally to clean up some sites
[07:42:41] <archivist> and the tracking urls
[07:42:49] <MattoMatic> I want to start a local ad server. local ads for local people
[07:42:59] <_abc_> Serving locally? Port redirect by url? ;)
[07:43:03] <_abc_> Or by ip...
[07:43:06] <Jymmm> There's no place like
[07:43:07] <archivist> edit ones hosts file is the main
[07:43:10] <_abc_> Yeah the net is becoming more and more hostile
[07:43:24] <_abc_> archivist: that is cheating!
[07:43:30] <_abc_> archivist: real men do it in the firewall.
[07:43:43] <archivist> http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm
[07:43:53] <archivist> works in any os :)
[07:44:00] <_abc_> I still have a working copy of Sun OpenOffice 2.x ... it tries to call home every time I start it, the servers no longer exist!
[07:44:20] <_abc_> I had to do firewall redirection to help it, it takes ages to start without this.
[07:45:30] <Jymmm> _abc_: run a local webserver that responds to it
[07:46:14] <_abc_> Jymmm: not needed, just the right firewall incantation and it is quiet. Also it uses https, no way to fake it.
[07:46:22] <archivist> I have some little empty files for the 1px tracking images
[07:46:57] <Jymmm> _abc_: ah
[07:47:03] <_abc_> Jymmm: if it senses no network connection it does not try to call home and wait
[07:47:35] <Jymmm> _abc_: you could hex edit and jut stop it all together
[07:47:36] <_abc_> Damn, I misplaced a little 808 camera and adapter.
[07:47:51] <_abc_> Jymmm: You must be jesting. It's at least 300MB installed.
[07:48:27] <Jymmm> _abc_: Not at all, searcg for any networking calls
[07:49:02] <_abc_> I'll give a banana to anyone explaining what keeps my system load at 2.95 with nothing showing up in top(1) output?
[07:49:35] <Jymmm> spyware =)
[07:50:32] <_abc_> Nope, one of the system's disk watchers. Sigh. Disabled it previously.
[07:50:45] <MattoMatic> kirk has bamboo and fist sized diamonds, and he's whining into his log that he has no weapons. I'm rooting for the Gorn
[07:50:46] <Jymmm> _abc_: All your boxes are botnets!
[07:51:17] <Jymmm> MattoMatic: I know that episode!
[07:51:27] <_abc_> No, not at all. I have dvd burner problems. Might crash and time out in a few
[07:52:10] <Jymmm> _abc_: I just have ext ones, super easy to replace
[07:52:51] <Jymmm> ext 5.25 enclosure
[07:55:44] <Jymmm> I love that it has an internal PS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4CP1GF9189
[08:00:54] <Jymmm> Does anyone have any stereo bluetooth headsets they like?
[08:01:02] <Jymmm> recommendations that is
[08:05:17] <jthornton> I found one I like
[08:05:27] <jthornton> dunno the name of it, it's out in the shop
[08:05:29] <membiblio> My only satisfying BlueTooth experience has been Plantronics over the ear - good battery life and lasts, physically, a long time plus listening to podcasts and audio is excellent from a aural point.
[08:05:38] <jthornton> I wear it while riding the bike
[08:06:18] <Jymmm> I found these so far... http://www.amazon.com/Kinivo-BTH240-Bluetooth-Stereo-Headphone/dp/B00AWIPITS
[08:06:55] <Jymmm> Can pair to 5 devices I believe
[08:07:33] <Tom_itx> so Jymmm, did you sign up for roku?
[08:07:53] <jthornton> oh your looking for big ones
[08:08:16] <Tom_itx> Merry Christmas everybody
[08:08:51] <Jymmm> jthornton: Not necessarily
[08:09:09] <jthornton> Merry Christmas
[08:09:51] <membiblio> Remember BlueTooth will sometimes connect from across the room but not from your pocket :)
[08:10:17] <jthornton> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WUDX250?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
[08:10:27] <jthornton> that's the one I use when I ride
[08:10:34] <jthornton> very comfortable
[08:10:41] <archivist> Real Wire tm
[08:11:45] <Jymmm> membiblio: lol, that's ok if I hit play and hear helicopters flying overhear, I 'll at least know my desktop is running =)
[08:12:24] <Jymmm> archivist: That's what I'm trying to avoid actually. Get's caught on everything
[08:14:46] <Tom_itx> http://www.adorama.com/KSUR20.html?hotlink=t&svfor=5m&gclid=CJ2arduT98kCFQiKaQodb1EIwQ
[10:19:56] <_abc_> Re. I ran some tests and am unable to run linuxcnc on this computer, in quemu or not. Image is 2.7 live iso, booted as failsafe. Error messages and some attempts to fix it:
[10:21:28] <_abc_> Any ideas on what else to try are welcome. In qemu or hw. I have 3 more computers to test this on, one only on Monday.
[10:21:43] <_abc_> The errors seen in qemu are the same as here.
[10:23:15] <cpresser> _abc_: those errors look quite serious. my guess would be that rtai is not compatible with qemu
[10:23:53] <pcw_home> [ 87.598992] RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED.
[10:23:54] <pcw_home> is the one the needs fixing
[10:25:15] <pcw_home> AFAIK LinuxCNC beyond 8.04? requires a APIC on X86 systems
[10:25:57] <pcw_home> (OS newer than Ubuntu 8.04 I mean)
[10:26:53] <pcw_home> Often the APIC is enabled with a BIOS option
[10:28:56] <pcw_home> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TroubleShooting#LinuxCNC_doesn_t_run_missing_lapic
[10:29:23] <_abc_> cpresser: I got the errors again after booting from the iso image, on the same laptop. Which works if you see this...
[10:29:38] <_abc_> apic is on here
[10:30:02] <_abc_> cat /proc/cpuinfo |grep apic -> apic
[10:30:17] <pcw_home> that fine but it needs to be enabled
[10:30:21] <_abc_> If you read the message it is not about a missing apic but about it not being enabled or something? My 2.6 kernel sees it fine
[10:30:46] <_abc_> So it's something about the kernel in the rtai iso which does not like this apic.
[10:30:48] <pcw_home> please read the wiki entry
[10:31:03] <_abc_> I did nothing special for it to work. I will read it right now. Give me a minute.
[10:31:32] <_abc_> Also, no thanks for google not finding that page when I asked nicely several times.
[10:32:21] <_abc_> Okay so in theory if the lapic works on the underlying system then qemu should also see it?
[10:32:30] * _abc_ will try this now instead of rebooting again
[10:33:50] <_abc_> Ahh wait I always booted the failsafe option which has nolapic in the grub cli
[10:34:06] <_abc_> Now I edited lapic out in that line and we'll see. If it only were so simple...
[10:35:10] <pcw_home> LinuxCNC realtime will likely not run with any virtualizer ( it may crawl... )
[10:36:03] <_abc_> (it cralws, it's okay it's for testing purposes)
[10:36:58] <irontree9> grrrrr a foreign object buried in the wood just ruined my cut
[10:38:17] <_abc_> irontree9: work in ironwood to match your nick...
[10:38:36] <_abc_> irontree9: just curious, what was it? wood knot or metal? Nail? Staple?
[10:38:53] <irontree9> trying to dig it out now
[10:40:06] <_abc_> Broken mill?
[10:40:16] <_abc_> That should not occur, unless you used a very delicate mill?
[10:41:22] <_abc_> That being said, crawling is relative, I assume a kvm augmented qemu will not be too slow
[10:42:10] <pcw_home> I would not expect it to be useful controlling a real machine
[10:42:16] <_abc_> Only sim.
[10:42:46] <_abc_> Working out the subroutines and other business in source files would greatly benefit from the ability to sim them before.
[10:44:00] <_abc_> (why the f* will all debian systems start nfs and associated daemons at boot time?!)
[10:44:06] <cpresser> you dont need realtime for sim
[10:44:12] <_abc_> I have my hands full as is, no need for more things to turn off
[10:44:28] <irontree9> nothing......there ..... The mill cuts through knots just fine.. But in this cut it was hanging up on something over and over again at one spot.... checking the rails
[10:44:36] <_abc_> cpresser: I know but linuxcnc refuses to run as is from live and I am working on making that happen
[10:45:11] <cpresser> _abc_: i just installed the sim-packages on my linux notebook
[10:45:12] <_abc_> irontree9: good one. Your machine is open loop stepper? Need to reindex to start over?
[10:45:36] <_abc_> cpresser: I know it can be done, for now I want to see it in the 'live' cd, later will be done otherwise or not.
[10:45:48] <_abc_> cpresser: So my goal now is to make that sim work in the live cd
[10:45:53] <irontree9> yes _abc_
[10:46:02] <_abc_> irontree9: ouch.
[10:46:23] <irontree9> Yes, it is a real pita
[10:46:56] <cpresser> afaik, the live-cd uses realtime.
[10:47:00] <_abc_> Wow is this what you do on xmas day...
[10:47:24] <_abc_> cpresser: yes the kernels are realtime.
[10:48:18] <cpresser> so the simple way would be to get sim packages from here: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[10:49:11] <cpresser> 'uspace' works on 'normal' linux for simulation purposes
[10:50:34] <_abc_> is buildbot linked from top level linuxcnc.org ? I can't see it. It has to be there.
[10:53:02] <irontree9> The less flutes the more cutting force on each tooth right, if the chip load is constant?
[10:54:14] <CaptHindsight> if the edges are in contact with the material at the same time
[10:58:54] <irontree9> I am just trying to understand why Dremel cutters have so many flutes. The 2 flute saw bit cut fine, but 7 and 12 flute bits are just too much. Not sure if Dremel is expecting people to put their full body weight on the cutter or something.
[11:01:35] <maxcnc> hi all and merry xmas to all of you from germany
[11:01:37] <CaptHindsight> can you imagine a hand held rotary tool with a 1/2" end mill going 50k rpm?
[11:02:25] <maxcnc> CaptHindsight: that might give a nice sound
[11:03:12] <irontree9> I think they have a 3/8" with 1/8" shaft and they spin at 35k
[11:03:46] <maxcnc> proxxon has some of this in stock
[11:04:58] <maxcnc> http://www.proxxon.com/de/micromot/einsatzwerkzeuge_profilfraeser.php?list
[11:06:13] <irontree9> I mean the Dremel does great with detail work. I was able to cut out a spear with .1mm accuracy. Dam thing is just real picky when ruffing out.
[11:06:16] <maxcnc> works fine on wood chiping
[11:06:39] <_abc_> I have little ball mills from Proxxon with many flutes.
[11:06:40] <maxcnc> proxxon is 100% more then dremel
[11:07:08] <_abc_> No idea why they make them like that, they are worthless when not used in their machines. I broke one iff without even trying in a normal cnc
[11:07:34] <_abc_> *off
[11:07:57] <_abc_> Also they do not seem to be ground into shape they are pressed or cast or hot formed.
[11:08:11] <_abc_> Maybe they temper them after that but it's not okay for a normal machine.
[11:08:48] <maxcnc> normel mashines can handel almost er11
[11:09:07] <maxcnc> so no need for this tools to be involved in shaping
[11:09:17] <maxcnc> real tools can be aplyed
[11:09:59] <_abc_> It broke in a 30krpm 1.5kW spindle at low cutting speed. I did not even increase speed to account for the extra cutting edges, it had about 6 or more, and I had speed for a 2 edged fishtail.
[11:10:15] <CaptHindsight> cheap tools for hobbyists, that's their market
[11:10:16] <_abc_> After that I used the fishtail with the same params, worked fine
[11:10:50] <_abc_> Just tried to be clever because the ball radius could do what I needed in one pass instead of 10.
[11:10:54] <_abc_> Sigh.
[11:11:02] <maxcnc> fishtail might be VM not hss
[11:11:06] <irontree9> Well the more I learn and test with Dremel the less and less impressed I am with them. The chuck likes to let lose when there is to much lateral force, drop the cutter and re-grip at a lower Z height....... Then the cnc machine starts a fire.
[11:11:06] <CaptHindsight> if hobbyists stopped buying them then they would change their product
[11:11:26] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: many tiny teeth on a ball mill means you can't grab massive chunks and break it off in wood, forec
[11:11:27] <SpeedEvil> x
[11:12:06] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: It was plastic, acetate or hdpe, 30krpm, iirc 0.3mm cut depth and probably 10-20mm/sec
[11:12:07] <maxcnc> irontree9: wood or plastics to cut
[11:12:12] <irontree9> wood
[11:12:32] <maxcnc> size up to 10 inches or lower
[11:12:35] <irontree9> soft wood mostly but I was able to cut on hard oak just fine with 2 flutes
[11:12:36] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: It did not melt, it simply grabbed the ball and ripped it off
[11:13:00] <irontree9> wow
[11:13:01] <_abc_> One flute cutters are technically the strongest also the slowest.
[11:13:17] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: zero flute cutters are stronger and slower
[11:13:22] <_abc_> hehe
[11:13:29] <maxcnc> irontree9: if you realy want to stay low cost with no hyanyang or vf spindel look on a proxxon IBe
[11:13:31] <SpeedEvil> (friction welding/...)
[11:14:02] <_abc_> maxcnc: there's Isel from your country... MUCH better.
[11:14:08] <maxcnc> irontree9: thats what i use on most mashines and it works for 2-3hr of standard cuttiung with no cooling
[11:14:25] <maxcnc> _abc_: but mutch expensiver
[11:14:30] <_abc_> Yes.
[11:14:48] <irontree9> Yeah starting to look like %90 of all my problems are with using the wrong cutter
[11:14:55] <maxcnc> is irontree9 in europ ?
[11:15:04] <irontree9> no, in America
[11:15:22] <_abc_> Also there's the other guys, Bungard
[11:15:24] <maxcnc> but not in tornado alley i hope from germany
[11:15:25] <irontree9> Just got finished with a hand built CNC and trying to fine tune it
[11:15:27] <_abc_> They also have nice spindles
[11:16:50] <_abc_> https://vimeo.com/66010670 someone know this machine?
[11:17:31] <maxcnc> _abc_: bungard use kavo spindels
[11:17:51] <_abc_> I know. I have access to a Kavo spindle. They are called something else now.
[11:18:04] <_abc_> Also I made a vfd for 30V~ 1kHz Kavo spindle.
[11:19:35] <maxcnc> _abc_: the mashine of bungard have no downforce only gravety so you cand do more then PCB
[11:20:09] <_abc_> Really? I only saw the spindle
[11:20:17] <_abc_> The gravity only one is surely only for drilling?
[11:20:28] <maxcnc> they are only on roll suporters with no back grap
[11:20:53] <_abc_> hm?
[11:21:00] <maxcnc> in the side profile is a pin so the yz does not fly of
[11:21:30] <_abc_> I am not following. Are you saying they are only for light duty engraving and milling?
[11:21:39] <maxcnc> it has 0.2mm of space
[11:22:12] <irontree9> http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/18stubcarbideballendmill2flutealtincoated.aspx
[11:22:18] <maxcnc> i never realy had one but its in there anoncement not for milling
[11:22:43] <maxcnc> irontree9: what size does your mill got in worklace
[11:22:50] <maxcnc> place
[11:23:20] <irontree9> 20x16cm
[11:24:35] <maxcnc> whow we build them here for the Universetyes in this size
[11:24:51] <maxcnc> use proxxon and you are realy good in usige
[11:24:51] <_abc_> maxcnc: 0.2mm Z axis play? Or backlash?
[11:25:22] <XXCoder> merry xmas all, enjoy this nog! https://i.imgur.com/yyg6MJV.jpg
[11:25:39] <maxcnc> _abc_: its the space that the Z axis has to grap the profile for the downforce to drill
[11:25:53] <_abc_> grap? grab? Move?
[11:26:20] <irontree9> ahhh crap found the problem!!! broken mill
[11:26:33] <maxcnc> grab
[11:26:33] <_abc_> :~(
[11:27:10] <maxcnc> hard for me as a non english man to tell how to
[11:27:53] <_abc_> ok. Post a link ;)
[11:27:58] <_abc_> Can be in German.
[11:28:36] <maxcnc> let me say it that way the bungard is not to be used in xy as Z has force
[11:29:06] <maxcnc> "kein Z gegenlager"
[11:29:19] <_abc_> Okay!
[11:29:55] <_abc_> But KAVO spindles do have very nice backlash-free Z axis bearings.
[11:30:10] <_abc_> At least the 4000 series I know?!
[11:30:26] <maxcnc> thats needed for pcb
[11:30:36] <irontree9> the z-axis move like 5mm!! when I exactly push hard on it the negative direction of the x-axis
[11:30:49] <maxcnc> as you got the full yZ weight as downforce
[11:30:55] <XXCoder> thats hell of backlash
[11:31:01] <_abc_> You mean the machine, not the spindle itself, right? The machine's Z axis?
[11:31:14] <maxcnc> yes
[11:31:50] <irontree9> yeah, I see the problem the slide rail holder is broken
[11:31:52] <_abc_> Okay. Because the Kavo spindle is in another machine ( :-) ) and it does NOT have backlash. Also that silly spindle is only 100W and costs as much as an entire chinese cnc with spindle
[11:32:17] <_abc_> irontree9: so it got wedged at that place? The carriage?
[11:32:37] <_abc_> *as much as a complete chinese cnc with 1.5kW water cooled spindle
[11:34:24] <maxcnc> im off Gn8 have a good xmas dinner and firerwork if you have one
[11:34:31] <irontree9> no, it just loses alignment at a certain lateral force and starts to plunge the spindle
[11:34:49] <_abc_> What's minimum ram to run linuxcnc please? 512MB?
[11:35:04] <archivist> more these days
[11:35:08] <_abc_> 1G?
[11:35:39] <archivist> depends on versions and what you are doing
[11:35:45] <irontree9> be a easy fix, be up and running before the day is out :)
[11:38:46] <_abc_> archivist: just sim in gui
[11:42:41] <_abc_> Wow the world is changing. Indian PM vists Paki PM! O.o
[11:51:28] <Jymmm> LOL. let me get right on that... From: Support Appel <ne-reply@appel-id.com> Your apple ID was used to login to your iCloud account through unknown device. Your apple account is now blocked temporarily. Please login to your account to verify your personal information now.
[12:09:19] <_abc_> appel or apple?
[12:09:40] <CaptHindsight> apfel
[12:09:41] <_abc_> Jymmm: to be phished by the oem. That is what it is!
[12:09:54] <_abc_> Or is that a lot of typos on your side?
[12:10:00] <_abc_> *from you
[12:10:08] * _abc_ should slow down with wine consumption.
[12:10:49] <_abc_> Wait, Jymmm, is that really spelled as you wrote?
[12:11:00] <archivist> deliberate tyop to catch the unwary to click a phishing url
[12:11:10] <_abc_> ...
[12:12:25] <_abc_> Okay so linuxcnc-2.7-live current does run under qemu with lapic enabled (do not use the failsafe image), but is dog slow and a memory hog.
[12:14:21] <archivist> I want a stepper motor with a defined set of wire colours..., got one here working but making strange noises
[12:15:40] <archivist> must be a way of sorting out the 8 wires without going through every combination
[12:17:09] <Roguish> archivist: check resistance continuity. you should be able to find pairs with 0 (or near 0) resistance. and get 4 coils
[12:17:39] <archivist> found the 4 coils, that was the easy bit
[12:18:20] <archivist> one site says The eight wires represent four pairs of wires, and each pair has the same resistance. It is not easy to find what two pairs represent phase A and phase B without dismantling the motor.
[12:19:26] <Roguish> yeah, i'm not good on steppers. if you can take an end cap off without pulling the rotor out, that might be the best.
[12:20:11] <Roguish> otherwise, good luck, patience is a virtue. and MAKE NOTES.
[12:20:47] <archivist> that is also the best way of getting filings into them :)
[12:26:50] <archivist> might be a good method http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/operate_stepper_windings.html
[12:27:37] <archivist> put pairs in series with one coil backwards, 0 current
[12:34:49] <_abc_> No need to dismantle, you can figure out the wires using leds or whatever connected to them.
[12:34:58] <_abc_> Blink on step.
[12:35:24] <_abc_> 4 leds needed.
[12:35:26] <_abc_> archivist: ^
[12:42:41] <_abc_> http://news.nationalpost.com/news/google-company-unleashes-creepy-robot-reindeer-just-in-time-for-christmas this is really really creepy
[12:42:52] <_abc_> Second time I post it on freenode in 2 days
[12:43:17] <_abc_> Has linuxcnc been 'misused' to operate zoomorphic bots?
[12:43:28] <_abc_> Not in those pics, in general
[12:49:23] <archivist> _abc_, leds dont tell you the phase of the coils on an 8 wire motor
[12:49:36] <archivist> but a scope does, just tried it
[12:50:01] <_abc_> The leds tell you the phase. You need to turn them around if they blink out of phase ;)
[12:50:05] <_abc_> One by one
[12:51:04] <archivist> when the correct coil pair are in series they add/subtract
[12:51:10] <_abc_> You have 2 leds on 'right' the 1st time, by default, then you simply turn the remaining 2 around if needed. 4 trials all together. Then you know polarity and phase on all coils. You obviously ohm the coils 1st
[12:51:24] <_abc_> archivist: yes but in non obvious ways when on successive phases
[12:51:28] <_abc_> 90 degrees out
[12:51:54] <archivist> you only get the 180 degrees on the correct pair
[12:52:01] <archivist> is obvious
[12:52:44] <_abc_> Yes but scope is too delicate for this, in my case, and 4 leds are 4 scope channels ;)
[12:53:12] <archivist> delicate!!!,
[12:57:34] <Deejay> poor mans oscilloscope? ;)
[12:57:46] <_abc_> Nobody is so poor as not to have 4 leds
[13:00:44] <archivist> I have a grown up scope
[13:01:22] <_abc_> The one I have at the lab is too grown up.
[13:01:33] <_abc_> Wheelie stand and all. Tek 7000
[13:01:40] <_abc_> series
[13:02:22] <archivist> I have a tek 7000 in the lounge, using the younger (just) Advance
[13:04:06] <archivist> but half way to making a test rig for a couple of the myths people think are true but which are not
[13:04:30] * _abc_ smells free energy and runs
[13:05:00] <archivist> nope stepper and rotary table accuracy
[13:06:14] <archivist> stepper drives an encoder (1000 line 4k quad) then a worm drive then another encoder this time 5000 line
[13:06:43] <archivist> should be able to see the various types of error
[13:07:16] <archivist> using linuxcnc to drive system and log it to file
[13:57:52] <Jymmm> _abc_: Yep, that's verbatim how they spelled it =)
[13:58:19] <Jymmm> _abc_: That's why I thought it was so funny
[14:05:07] <Jymmm> _abc_: That's not creepy, Hollywood has been doing that for decades. Now, THIS on the other hand, err mouth... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmSYnOvEueo
[14:49:50] <_abc_> Jymmm: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=pong+animatronic+head&biw=1162&bih=444&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
[14:54:49] <Jymmm> _abc_: Nah, that's just animatronics. Disney made a killing on that =)
[14:55:49] <_abc_> diy > disney
[16:23:57] <Deejay> gn8
[16:42:28] <malcom2073> archivist: The kind of people who care, already know, and the kind of people who believe otherwise, wouldn't watch a video stating reality :P
[16:44:18] <malcom2073> Are you targeting the myths about microstepping and precision in relation to a rotary table?
[16:48:20] <cncbasher_> archivist would need a novel , or a full movie for that
[16:50:30] * JT-Shop tries to figure out the bare minimum to fire up a 5i25
[16:50:41] <JT-Shop> I think you can just do it in halrun???
[16:55:04] <JT-Shop> with a 5i25 you don't need a base thread iirc???
[17:00:12] <JT-Shop> should these few lines start up the 5i25? http://pastebin.com/VU9DkAGE
[17:00:32] <JT-Shop> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/linuxcnc/hm2_pci.ko': -1 Unknown symbol in module
[17:22:27] <cncbasher_> what ur doing jt ?
[17:22:52] <cncbasher_> ubuntu 10_04 ?
[17:25:03] <cncbasher_> the hostmot2 drivers have been updated since ubuntu ( i believe ) so might be where some differences my lie
[17:25:25] <cncbasher_> hence the unknown symbol
[17:25:50] <cncbasher_> or as mere mortals know it as a name change
[17:29:18] <JT-Shop> well crap, I reverted back to 2.6 to just be able to run until I get the 7i77GALV card
[17:29:27] <JT-Shop> yea 10.04
[17:29:57] <cncbasher_> are you using the 7i77 too
[17:30:19] <cncbasher_> you can delete the config " "
[17:30:42] <cncbasher_> then it will only take whats in the 5i25 bit file
[17:32:03] <cncbasher_> if it's a new bit file , then thats probably what it is , do you use a rip build ?
[17:32:05] <JT-Shop> yes the 7i77 is being used
[17:32:49] <JT-Shop> let me back up, I changed to 2.7 AND flashed the 5i25 with the latest bit file then reverted back to 2.6
[17:33:12] <cncbasher_> if you use a rip build it should work
[17:33:16] <JT-Shop> now I get the error you say
[17:33:25] <JT-Shop> rip of 2.6?
[17:33:44] <JT-Shop> how is that different from the deb?
[17:34:36] <JT-Shop> running 2.6.11 and the sim won't even run
[17:34:42] <JT-Shop> I might have other problems
[17:34:52] <cncbasher_> to use 2.6 you may need to copy the newer hostmot2 driver from 2.7 to 2.6 then build
[17:35:34] <JT-Shop> or flash the 5i25 with an older bit file?
[17:35:38] <cncbasher_> yes
[17:36:09] <JT-Shop> let me see if I still have the last one I used before this one
[17:36:43] <JT-Shop> ok I rebooted and the sim runs now
[17:36:48] <JT-Shop> I'll try the other
[17:36:50] <cncbasher_> good
[17:38:14] <cncbasher_> their were updates to the sserial so that would have changed the driver , you see
[17:42:34] <JT-Shop> I found the bit files from 2013...
[17:44:01] <cncbasher_> that should do it
[17:44:02] <JT-Shop> I never would have thought a probe would be so much trouble...
[17:44:12] <cncbasher_> oh whats up
[17:44:32] <cncbasher_> anything i can help with ?
[17:44:40] <JT-Shop> to use the probe with the 7i77 encoder input you need 2.7...
[17:45:09] <JT-Shop> well the 2.7 hostmot2 driver has a bug and if you get one sserial error it just shuts down
[17:46:17] <JT-Shop> I can't even start the config it just errors out with sserial errors and stops
[17:48:47] <JT-Shop> for some reason the FPGA read thread is not running
[17:49:53] <cncbasher_> interesting
[17:50:13] <johnt> Starting LinuxCNC...
[17:50:13] <johnt> hm2/hm2_5i25.0: Smart Serial Error: port 0 channel 1. You may see this error if the FPGA card read thread is not running. This error message will not repeat.
[17:51:07] <johnt> same error as before
[17:51:10] <cncbasher_> is the 7i77 serial firmware updated too
[17:51:46] <johnt> not sure what you mean, the firmware is on the 5i25 afik
[17:52:11] <cncbasher_> theirs also firmware in the 7i77 too
[17:53:27] <JT-BP> I did sudo mesaflash --device 5i25 --write 7i77x2.bit
[17:53:30] <cncbasher_> if the 5i25 and the 7i77 are running different versions of sserial for example , that might account for the error
[17:54:25] <cncbasher_> check with pcw as to the sserial version in the 7i77
[17:55:30] <JT-Shop> the only thing I changed was the 5i25
[17:55:45] <cncbasher_> might be worth checking
[17:55:54] <cncbasher_> the sserial software
[17:56:08] <JT-Shop> how do you do that?
[17:56:25] <cncbasher_> ha now i have to remember how ,
[17:56:39] <JT-Shop> I have the same problem lol
[17:56:48] <cncbasher_> bb , it's on the forum i know see if i can find it
[17:58:19] <Duc> The yaskawa motors a little scary for speed during auto tune
[17:58:21] <Duc> lol
[17:58:26] <cncbasher_> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/9-installing-linuxcnc/29719-warning-after-upgrade-to-ver-2-7-0#63414
[17:58:41] <JT-Shop> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-kVFfKezVo
[18:01:06] <JT-Shop> crap, I get an error trying to unzip the sserial.zip file
[18:01:09] <Duc> anyone have a good link for tuning servo motors
[18:02:16] <JT-Shop> well I do
[18:02:36] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/index.html
[18:02:39] <JT-Shop> my place
[18:03:11] <cncbasher_> 1 min jt i'll have it archived her e
[18:03:15] <Duc> awesome thanks.
[18:06:35] <Duc> PID output is y-output for signal if Im working on y axis
[18:06:36] <Duc> ?
[18:07:56] <JT-Shop> something like that
[18:08:44] <Duc> do you remember the scale used for the PID
[18:09:10] <JT-Shop> I'd think that would be machine specific
[18:09:14] <Duc> ok
[18:10:00] <Duc> Is there a way to adjust the P, I , D values without reloading program?
[18:10:37] <JT-Shop> in Axis Machine > Calibration
[18:12:56] <Duc> ok
[18:14:03] * JT-Shop goes to warm up the Christmas ham bit
[18:14:59] <pcw_home> AFAIK there are no incompatibilities in sserial host and remote software versions
[18:15:21] <Jymmm> wth is 's'serial ?
[18:15:26] <JT-Shop> I must have other problems...
[18:15:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: set oven to 325F
[18:16:01] <JT-Shop> I have to slice it first
[18:16:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Ah
[18:16:36] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: got chainsaw?
[18:16:40] <pcw_home> did you check that you reinstalled the WD lines in the HAL file?
[18:16:44] <JT-Shop> two of them
[18:17:05] <JT-Shop> yes wait lines? maybe only one
[18:17:17] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: chainsaw == instant-slice-o-matic!!!
[18:17:56] <JT-Shop> well if you don't uncomment the addf wd line it won't work
[18:18:00] <pcw_home> there needs to be something that sets the timeout and the addf pet watchdog line
[18:18:25] <pcw_home> it wont work for 2.6
[18:18:50] <Jymmm> We had a NY Roast on the barbie, and tossed in some cedar, came out EXCELENT
[18:18:54] <JT-Shop> thanks for thinking of the wd lines
[18:19:04] <JT-Shop> back to running now
[18:19:13] <pcw_home> (the WD bites, the outputs are disabled and sserial bellyaches when its TX fails )
[18:19:35] <JT-Shop> yep
[18:19:38] <pcw_home> (no TX means no RX so timeout)
[18:19:38] <Jymmm> what is 'sserial' ?
[18:19:53] <JT-Shop> a touch screen is not the best when setting up
[18:20:38] * JT-Shop has to get warming up some chow for me and the missus
[18:21:29] <JT-Shop> merry christmas to all
[18:21:40] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[18:47:55] <Duc> Anyone on that knows a little bit about tuning a AC servo
[18:50:30] <Duc> Having issues with large f-error when the drive is tracking
[18:55:34] <Duc> PCW: Would any jumper setting on the 7i77 board cause a large f-error when tuning a drive
[19:02:36] <pcw_home> no
[19:03:08] <pcw_home> tuning velocity mode drives is mostly done with FF1
[19:04:47] <pcw_home> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[19:07:57] <Duc> pcw_home: Ok I will have to play some more with the drive and post some pics
[19:08:44] <Duc> pcw_home: The f-error climbs fast then the drive reverse to fix the error
[19:09:20] <Duc> after the position cmd ends
[19:11:04] <pcw_home> if you consider a well tuned velocity mode drive, FF1 is 95% of the tuning
[19:13:08] <pcw_home> with too much FF1 the position leads the command, with too little, the position lags the command
[19:14:00] <pcw_home> so basically all tuning is done with FF1 and P (typically no need for D or I)
[19:14:41] <pcw_home> ( note that torque mode drive tuning is quite different )
[19:16:00] <Duc> ok I will give it a shot later on
[19:16:08] <Duc> thank you for the hlep
[19:33:33] <pink_vampire> hi
[19:35:02] <pink_vampire> what is the best method to mark a wire in the panel?
[19:37:40] <malcom2073> I use heat shrink labels for marking wires
[19:38:22] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: hoe is it look like?
[19:38:53] <pink_vampire> how*
[19:38:56] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: ^
[19:39:03] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: http://i.stack.imgur.com/JN7Jx.jpg
[19:39:12] <malcom2073> Except you can hand-write them too in fine tip sharpie before shrinking too
[19:39:26] <malcom2073> The printers for them are stupid expensive, but the labels themselves aren't terrible
[19:39:32] <os1r1s> MattoMatic Thats pretty awesome
[19:39:35] <os1r1s> malcom2073 ^
[19:39:50] <os1r1s> malcom2073 What printer does that?
[19:40:30] <malcom2073> os1r1s: An expensive one.
[19:40:32] <pink_vampire> I see the clip wire markers.. but i can't see any that come with letters.
[19:40:48] <pink_vampire> I have few here, but just numbers.
[19:41:01] <malcom2073> pink_vampire: I get the blank labels and write on them myself
[19:41:29] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: but it's not look nice..
[19:41:37] <pink_vampire> I want to do it like a pro.
[19:41:39] <malcom2073> It's fine if you write neatly :P
[19:42:07] <pink_vampire> http://www.cablectrix.com/library/1/images/products/Cable%20Management/WIC-clip-on-wire-markers.jpg
[19:42:34] <malcom2073> Eh, that's annoying though, you gotta keep a lookup sheet
[19:43:51] <pink_vampire> malcom2073: this is why I want to get them with letters.
[19:44:27] <malcom2073> I wonder if you could use a letter stamp
[19:44:29] <malcom2073> on them
[19:44:34] <os1r1s> malcom2073 Looks like the dymo 4200 will do it for $45
[19:44:58] <malcom2073> os1r1s: I'd not looked into seeing if there were cheap options, that's actually fantastic
[19:45:11] <pink_vampire> i have the ql-700 printer
[19:45:39] <malcom2073> The printer we have at work hooks to the PC, and takes giant rolls of labels, it was something like $2-3k new
[19:46:05] <malcom2073> "Directly on heat shrink tubes", yep looks liek the 4200 may be the way to go pink_vampire
[19:47:06] <os1r1s> malcom2073 A 5 ft roll of heatshrink is $20, but that goes a long way
[19:47:07] <pink_vampire> my printer can print flags, and roll cover labels,
[19:47:17] <malcom2073> os1r1s: Indeed
[19:47:23] <malcom2073> Especially if you're careful
[19:49:41] <pink_vampire> my use thermal sticker.. so heat shrink on top will destroy the print
[19:57:48] <pink_vampire> what do you think it's better. to cut the cord of the spindle and connect it to a terminal block, or to put power outlet on the side of the panel?
[19:59:25] <archivist> malcom2073, there are two myths I am targeting, the main one is rotary table resolution and accuracy, the microstepping one is a bonus from the jig setup
[20:18:45] <enleth> My Bridgeport uses color-coded clip on number labels on all wires
[20:19:08] <enleth> Each has a single digit and is colored in the same way resistor stripes are
[20:20:16] <enleth> There are about 300 numbered circuit nodes in the whole machine and while this method requires the user to memorize numbers or have a list at hand, it's convenient in tight, hard to see spots
[20:20:32] <enleth> I don't have to see the actual numbers, just the colors
[20:20:52] <enleth> Most significant digit is always closer to the local wire termination point
[20:21:43] <enleth> Wait, most of them are not clip-on, they're tubes, but I'm not sure if they're heat shrink
[20:21:52] <enleth> They slide over the insulation rather freely
[20:22:08] <enleth> There are clip-on labels in a few places
[20:22:33] <enleth> pink_vampire: ^
[20:23:00] <archivist> they were a stretch design often (I have a box of the stretch type)
[20:23:12] <pink_vampire> http://www.partex-direct.com/PC40-Clip-On-Cable-Marker-BY?language=en&currency=USD&gclid=COCsp6Wy-MkCFcMRHwodWpIEmg
[20:23:21] <pink_vampire> there look nice..
[20:23:22] <enleth> If I had to choose, I'd probably use both color-coded numbering labels and descriptive labels where necessary
[20:23:47] <enleth> pink_vampire: oh, those are self-aligning, nice
[20:24:17] <Duc> what is really nice is to/from labels on each end of the wire
[20:24:33] <pink_vampire> but there is better ones that snap together,
[20:24:45] <enleth> Duc: so that's the third kind of label I'd like to use at the same time
[20:25:03] <enleth> It would probably be an overkill to use all three approaches in a single machine though
[20:25:06] <enleth> And expensive too
[20:25:07] <Duc> enleth: when I worked flight simulators that was required for each wire
[20:25:23] <enleth> Duc: you mean at some military contractor?
[20:25:28] <Duc> made troubleshooting a 10,000+ wire system alot easeir
[20:25:34] <enleth> As they say, there's no kill like overkill
[20:25:57] <Duc> enleth: yes Used to work on cv22, 60 helicopter and c130 sims
[20:26:20] <pink_vampire> I have now some of those,
[20:26:25] <pink_vampire> I Have now some of those
[20:26:44] <Duc> far from overkill, Hand over handing wire sucks ass on that big of a system
[20:26:54] <pink_vampire> http://g04.a.alicdn.com/kf/UT8FV1wXhRdXXagOFbXj/200651297/UT8FV1wXhRdXXagOFbXj.jpg
[20:27:41] <enleth> Duc: sure, for something this big
[20:28:04] <pink_vampire> the clip marker are over kill?
[20:28:07] <enleth> What you lose in initial assembly time, you gain in maintenance time
[20:28:08] <pink_vampire> why?
[20:28:21] <pink_vampire> i like the fact thet it reusable.
[20:28:40] <enleth> pink_vampire: no, but using both wire numbers, wire description and wire destination at the same time in every spot would be
[20:28:53] <Duc> on mine I got lazy, I'll just note where they go on a picture.
[20:29:04] <enleth> Unless your machine is actually so big that you wouldn't be able to keep track of connections
[20:29:32] <pink_vampire> just the drivers sction use 72 feet of wire..
[20:30:06] <pink_vampire> and i think it will eat about 1000 feet of wire.
[20:32:02] <pink_vampire> and i want to engrave each lable for the terminal blocks
[20:32:32] <Duc> what kind of machine is this
[20:33:00] <pink_vampire> G704
[20:33:04] <pink_vampire> G0704*
[20:33:10] <Duc> which is
[20:34:29] <enleth> Duc: you just reminded me of a few stories from friends working on APCs and tanks here in Poland
[20:34:54] <enleth> Specifically, on on-board computers and networks that run the modern military vehicles
[20:35:30] <Duc> enleth: alot of the computers on the sim were from the real aircraft
[20:35:34] <pink_vampire> Duc: it's a milling machine.
[20:35:42] <Duc> grizzly?
[20:35:57] <pink_vampire> yes
[20:36:05] <enleth> One of them dropped by without his usual laptop, carrying what clearly was a replacement, so I asked him what happened to his computer
[20:36:20] <enleth> "fell of the tank, we ran it over"
[20:36:36] <Duc> LOL I could see that happening
[20:36:49] <Duc> Why so long of cables for a small machine
[20:37:33] <pink_vampire> alot of options
[20:37:42] <enleth> Turns out they were adjusting the ECU and he was sitting on top of the tank, with his lapto connected to some exhaust analysis hardware, not sure what for exactly
[20:38:13] <Duc> explain if you dont mind
[20:38:16] <enleth> But the driver engaged the clucthes by mistake and the tank jolted briefly, sending the laptop off
[20:38:39] <Duc> enleth: alot of the new stuff has ECU on everything, I hate to explain that damage away
[20:39:46] <enleth> Duc: some time ago I *nearly* landed a job programming FADECs, I hated having lost the opportunity
[20:41:06] <enleth> I mean, I wouldn't be doing FADEC firmware right off the bat, some support software first for a time, but that's how everyone on that team started out
[20:41:18] <Duc> what happen to the job
[20:41:49] <enleth> Someone else got it because their friend had friends higher up than mine had
[20:42:19] <pink_vampire> I have about 15 tempratuer sensors. 5 fan conrollers, bypass for the motor drivers, 2 C10 lpt, main contactor, dubble stage limit swiches, soft and hard E stops, digitizer, and hope to add extruders for 3d printing, and hight speed spindle
[20:43:13] <Duc> seems better to use a seperate 3d printer then use a milling machine or are you going to mill with it also
[20:43:31] <Duc> enleth: Yea jobs are really made by who you are friends with
[20:43:54] <enleth> Especially in the defense industry I think
[20:44:08] <Duc> true in the gun indrustry also
[20:44:19] <enleth> pink_vampire: a mill would make a real shitty 3D printer
[20:44:34] <pink_vampire> enleth: why??
[20:44:36] <enleth> pink_vampire: too much inertia, it will shake itself apart trying to produce infills fast enough
[20:45:16] <Duc> pink_vampire: have you built a 3d printer before?
[20:46:07] <enleth> pink_vampire: inertia is usually not a problem for substractive fabrication as you have to overcome the resistance of the material you're cutting by pushing the tool into it, so mills are made with little regard for it, and a heavy, bulky mill is a good thing as it's rigid
[20:46:14] <pink_vampire> I can get nice IPM.. about 200 IPM
[20:46:24] <enleth> pink_vampire: a 3D printer is an opposite of that
[20:47:10] <enleth> pink_vampire: most of the time it makes so many sharp turns you could run a 2D FFT over the toolpath and get a considerable share of high frequencies
[20:47:34] <pink_vampire> I know the in 3D printing i need speed. but 200IPM it's faster than moste 3d printers..
[20:47:43] <enleth> pink_vampire: it's not just a matter of continuous linear speed
[20:48:00] <enleth> you need a machine that can accelerate and deceleare really fast and hard
[20:48:22] <XXCoder> hey all
[20:48:23] <pink_vampire> enleth: 1HP servo on each axis...
[20:48:27] <XXCoder> merry xmas
[20:48:35] <Duc> plus I would use linuxcnc for it anyways
[20:48:37] <enleth> pink_vampire: I'm still extremely skeptical about this
[20:49:00] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: wanting to make adder-subtractor mill machine eh'
[20:50:03] <enleth> pink_vampire: before you bother with fitting an extruder, get a piece of 3D printer gcode for an infill layer, preferably serveral different infill patterns, and try to run it as fast as a 3D printer would
[20:50:12] <pink_vampire> even if i want to make a 3d printer, i need to get an extruder.. so i ca try it on the spindle, and if it not work forme i can make seperate 3d printer.
[20:50:45] <enleth> pink_vampire: see how fast Aleph Objects printers go
[20:50:49] <enleth> try to match that
[20:50:53] <Duc> its not that we dont think it would be fun but it doesnt work well
[20:52:38] <pink_vampire> my main goal is metal working, the 3d printer is just a bonus. experiment with chocolates syringe and cool stuff.
[20:52:41] <enleth> I'm betting quite a lot that the machine will either round off the path horribly, or grind to a halt all the time, or maybe keep up but beg you to kill it by clattering at several high frequencies, loosening everything in the process
[20:54:14] <Duc> so enleth or xxcoder how much do you guys know about tuning ac servos
[20:54:34] <pink_vampire> my is DC servo.
[20:54:35] <os1r1s> pink_vampire If you just want to play with chocolate, paste, you will likely be ok
[20:54:44] <XXCoder> I know it depends on hearing a lot, something I cant do lol
[20:54:46] <os1r1s> pink_vampire But that requires a dramatically different type of extruder
[20:54:52] <enleth> Duc: AC? Not much at all
[20:55:23] <Duc> I've have some massive f-error during my tuning that I can seem to get rid of
[20:55:41] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: but it's the same wiring.
[20:56:07] <pink_vampire> we need Teamspeak server..
[20:56:11] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Not exactly. You typically don't use a stepper for paste
[20:56:16] <os1r1s> Or servo
[20:56:17] <pink_vampire> I cant type soo fast.
[20:56:43] <CaptHindsight> nah, print 100x faster using chocolate photopolymers and a DLP projector
[20:56:50] <enleth> pink_vampire: one idea I had for 3D printing on a heavy machine was to mount a second, smaller cartesian robot with maybe a 15x15mm movement range right at the extruder and split the toolpath - low frequency, high amplitude is handled by the big machine while high frequencies are handled by the extra axes
[20:56:57] <enleth> pink_vampire: but I never tested it
[20:57:09] <enleth> That could work for what you're trying to do
[20:57:53] <enleth> 80-90% of most 3D printing toolpaths are infills, and those are jagged diagonal lines
[20:58:20] <CaptHindsight> or DLP print sacrificial molds and then cast thermoplastics and thermosets
[20:58:47] <CaptHindsight> FDM is just slow no matter how you slice it (pun intended)
[20:58:51] <enleth> If the mill could just run along a straight diagonal line, while the small cartesian robot would basically jag the printhead to the sides in a synchronized manner, it would print the infill without any significant vibration
[20:59:03] <pink_vampire> https://www.datron.de/dispensing/applications.html
[20:59:40] <Duc> not really a 3d printing application more a single layer that is slow
[21:01:07] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhtC-mwGe0I
[21:01:21] <pink_vampire> 3d printer head onb milling machine.
[21:01:27] <Duc> I did see a small fanuc robot do 3d printing in their test lab in Detroit
[21:01:32] <enleth> pink_vampire: also, I've been using Nanotec PD4-N59L motors for a 3D printing testbed and while they're absolutely insanely huge and powerful for a 3D printer (most designs use tiny no-name NEMA17 motors), even those struggled at high speed infills
[21:02:34] <enleth> pink_vampire: heh, that's one nicely modified Sieg
[21:03:09] <pink_vampire> enleth: I think the G0704 is the bigger version of the machin that thay use,
[21:03:13] <pink_vampire> enleth: ^
[21:03:17] <CaptHindsight> heh, gravity fed injection
[21:04:44] <enleth> relatively nice printouts, but a bit slow
[21:05:02] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/PhtC-mwGe0I?t=3m29s
[21:06:03] <enleth> still, nicely done, I'm impressed
[21:06:54] <enleth> I think that's the first time I've seen such a combo machine made by an academic/hobby/startup team that actually works, seems to be designed instead of hodgepodged together in hurry and doesn't suck
[21:07:32] <pink_vampire> and I use very strong servos.. and can go to much higher feed rates.
[21:07:46] <Duc> did you upgrade to ball screws?
[21:07:56] <pink_vampire> yes!
[21:07:58] <CaptHindsight> suck is in the eyes of the beholder
[21:07:58] <enleth> Oh, that's also a good question
[21:08:16] <enleth> pink_vampire: so as I said, try running some infill paths
[21:08:55] <enleth> Use a spring loaded pencil on paper, scan the result, compare it with the rendered path
[21:09:29] <enleth> That's how most people do path testing on 3D printers
[21:09:49] <Duc> so if anyone has advice for the f-error here is a screen shot from the tuning [URL=http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/shefron/media/Machinery/Boss5%20servo/0bd001a5-858c-49e1-b45f-673618d0a025_zpslepyvzu8.png.html][IMG]http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd465/shefron/Machinery/Boss5%20servo/0bd001a5-858c-49e1-b45f-673618d0a025_zpslepyvzu8.png[/IMG][/URL]
[21:10:21] <pink_vampire> enleth: I can do vey sharp therns, Itis 1HP servo. one time the emcoder was not connected and the table fly.
[21:12:03] <pink_vampire> enleth: the recomended servos for my machine was 350 oz/in. I'm using 1125 oz/in.
[21:13:25] <enleth> pink_vampire: how fast does it go again?
[21:13:50] <pink_vampire> 200IPM and I'm sure I can fo faster.
[21:14:53] <pink_vampire> and this is for the Z axis
[21:15:31] <enleth> X and Y values would be more useful
[21:15:49] <pink_vampire> 200IPM easy..
[21:16:34] <pink_vampire> I didn't try to push it to the max speed.
[21:17:04] <os1r1s> pink_vampire 200 ipm is not that fast for a 3d printer
[21:17:18] <os1r1s> pink_vampire 2 of mine regularly print at 474+
[21:17:35] <os1r1s> But 200 is respectable
[21:17:50] <enleth> If I'm getting the weirdo inch math correctly, AO-101, the best printer I have access to, does infills at 120 and perimeters at 170 OOTB, but it's possible to go at least 50% faster with no ill effects. This is considered average by today's standards.
[21:18:36] <enleth> However, we're speaking about linear speed over a highly swirly-jaggy path
[21:18:39] <os1r1s> enleth Did you convert to IPM vs mm/s
[21:18:44] <pink_vampire> I'm sure i can go to 400IPM easy.
[21:19:16] <enleth> os1r1s: yes, I think that's what 50mm/s and 70mm/s amount to
[21:19:29] <os1r1s> enleth Yeah, thats really slow
[21:19:33] <os1r1s> 50 and 70
[21:19:41] <os1r1s> Almost printrbot territory
[21:20:05] <enleth> AO-101 is a few years old and wasn't the top of the line even then
[21:20:18] <pink_vampire> 400ipm is 167 mm/s
[21:20:22] <enleth> (a pretty solid design though)
[21:20:23] <os1r1s> enleth I am very familiar with them
[21:20:34] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Yes. I regularly go 200 mm/s
[21:20:47] <os1r1s> Traveling faster. Printer about that
[21:21:25] <os1r1s> pink_vampire But its quite irrelevant. You certainly are in the range that makes it happen. It will just be complex.
[21:22:34] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: I dont care about push it to the top speed.. I just want to play with it and have the option..
[21:22:42] <enleth> pink_vampire: try to make a sinusoidal path with T=4mm, A=2mm, 45deg angle to axes, 15cm long, make several adjacent copies, run it at 100mm/s along the path
[21:23:35] <enleth> a sine will be easy on the machine, so if that goes well, make it a square wave path with angled slopes
[21:24:08] <enleth> or a half-hexagon-thingy-path, not sure how to describe that
[21:24:26] <pink_vampire> enleth: you can do very sharp terns with it, and go to very high speed and press the E stop and wach the house shaking. but I like to go slow and safe.
[21:25:00] <enleth> pink_vampire: https://woodgears.ca/kitchen/hexagon04.jpg - this is what you could do
[21:25:25] <enleth> that's what I meant by half-hexagonal paths
[21:26:16] <pink_vampire> or maybe some round fill patterns
[21:26:27] <enleth> Could be
[21:27:23] <enleth> What I'm trying to say for the last half and hour or so - it's not a question of making a sharp turn, but of making a fuck-ton of sharp turns in a continuous rapid sequence for hours at time
[21:27:46] <enleth> purpose built printers shake themselves apart doing that
[21:28:34] <pink_vampire> for me the 3 printer is a toy.. I like metals..
[21:28:47] <enleth> re-squaring and re-tigthening everything every 20-30 print hours is a given
[21:28:57] <enleth> IF you're using loctite, lock washers and such
[21:29:13] <enleth> if not, 10 hours with noting loosening up is good
[21:30:20] <pink_vampire> I think 3 printer is very good way yo make sollid bar for machining.
[21:30:42] <enleth> well, no
[21:31:00] <enleth> you don't want to print an actual *solid* object
[21:31:15] <enleth> the infill volume ratio of plastic to air is usually 15-35%
[21:31:51] <os1r1s> pink_vampire We use SLS printers are work to print metal objects that we then mill/lathe as necessary.
[21:31:58] <os1r1s> at work
[21:32:23] <enleth> Try to get more with FDM and you're basically looking at DAYS of print time for a single part
[21:32:51] <enleth> And obviously you can't really machine a part that only has solid perimeter
[21:33:01] <pink_vampire> it just an add on to the milling machine, not the main purpose of it. so.. I dont expect it to be fast and very high quality, just to have the option.
[21:33:42] <enleth> pink_vampire: OK, it's your machine, you just have been warned by someone who was there and did that
[21:33:49] <malcom2073> Tbh, printing a solid block is a waste of money
[21:33:56] <malcom2073> buying a block of the same size would easily be a fraction of the price
[21:34:03] <XXCoder> yeah can just order solid stock
[21:34:13] <XXCoder> unusual shaped stocks may save money but dunno
[21:34:38] <malcom2073> Mostly, it's for things that are not machinable, (lost foam casting stuff), or isn't practical to machine (rapid prototype fit testing etc)
[21:35:41] <enleth> os1r1s: I'd love to have access to an SLS that produces load bearing parts, but the cost of the hardware *and* material is so horribly high
[21:36:15] <os1r1s> enleth Here was one of the fun prints from it ... https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpk4fgux2i4itfr/slsrook1.jpg
[21:36:56] <malcom2073> Yeah, and for when you really want the spiral staircase inside your rook to look cool :P
[21:37:15] <pink_vampire> enleth: look at that as a teaspoon in the ATC just for stir your tea
[21:37:27] <enleth> os1r1s: bronze/inox?
[21:37:35] <os1r1s> enleth Ti
[21:37:42] <enleth> holy shit.
[21:37:52] <XXCoder> indeed
[21:38:55] <pink_vampire> nice printing.
[21:38:56] <enleth> os1r1s: you know, with print quality that high you could have embossed it with a price tag
[21:39:06] <enleth> It would be even more intimidating
[21:39:34] <os1r1s> enleth We are in the early stages of using it for joints
[21:39:59] <enleth> I mean, those powder must be more expensive per unit of volume than inkjet cartridges
[21:40:02] <enleth> *this
[21:40:26] <os1r1s> enleth I think that machine is 500k
[21:40:29] <pink_vampire> what kind a matel is that?
[21:40:49] <enleth> And that's priced as if it were made from unicorn droppings hand picked by tibetan monks in the heart of the amazonia jungle.
[21:41:05] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Titanium
[21:41:21] <pink_vampire> very nice.
[21:41:40] <os1r1s> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xe4tz325scp0acs/slsrunning.mov
[21:41:44] <os1r1s> Ignore the sound ...
[21:41:48] <enleth> os1r1s: make the rest of the set and sell it maybe?
[21:42:08] <pink_vampire> I need to start saving money
[21:42:51] <enleth> Anyway, this 500k price tag is why people dabble in FDM
[21:44:50] <XXCoder> os1r1s: awesome!
[21:45:44] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: now my milling machine look like the flintstones technology :-( :-( :-(
[21:46:42] <os1r1s> We still have many more vmcs and turn centers than anything else.
[21:47:36] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: you have to stir your tea some how...
[21:48:17] <enleth> pink_vampire: more like millstones
[21:50:00] <pink_vampire> enleth: I go to the shapeoko to wach some real junk.. than maybe I will feel better.
[21:50:21] <XXCoder> heh my machine probably will be able to mill stone
[21:50:27] <XXCoder> it has 27000 rpm spindle
[21:51:13] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: your m achine working?
[21:51:46] <XXCoder> it is, but still havent done anythibg, garage is still a mess and ice cold
[21:53:31] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: you neen to do like me.. put it in the living room. (I'm the wife so my wife don't kill me)
[21:53:49] <XXCoder> lol cant
[21:54:40] <pink_vampire> why? yours is small and oil free.
[21:54:53] <enleth> pink_vampire: well that's a respectable lifehack
[21:54:55] <XXCoder> well we use living room regularly
[21:55:23] <enleth> XXCoder: apparently you're using it wrong
[21:55:31] <XXCoder> lol
[21:55:46] <pink_vampire> LOL
[21:57:14] <pink_vampire> I'm wondering what happened in lesbian relationship..
[21:57:14] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/5deDOW3 - lol
[21:57:24] <SpeedEvil> very relevant
[21:59:15] <pink_vampire> I like the shelf above the door..
[21:59:54] <pink_vampire> 1001 way to die..
[22:01:17] <enleth> hoist by his own handplane
[22:01:46] <XXCoder> the greatest fart joke of all time. behold: http://www.joblo.com/video/media/screenshot/rocket-man-best-parts.jpg
[22:02:27] <XXCoder> too bad it was in one of worse movies.
[22:03:16] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: I don't know what you are thalking about.
[22:03:46] <enleth> XXCoder: nah, the best fart joke of all time was Colin Furze's Fart at France
[22:03:52] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: its a movie, the guy at back had broken oxygen tank so he has to be teathered with other guy for oxygen
[22:04:08] <XXCoder> unfortunately he farts so hard he bubbles up
[22:04:20] <XXCoder> other guy tries to block it by pinching cable but fails, he suffers heh\
[22:06:03] <XXCoder> did anyone there say "I fart in your general direction"? heh
[22:06:22] <XXCoder> huh
[22:06:27] <XXCoder> whats up with cell phone
[22:06:39] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: you took it to seriously ,I joke ..
[22:06:55] <XXCoder> lol ok
[22:08:58] <enleth> on a completely unrelated note, do you know anything about those funny hexagonal brass inserts they somehow put in sheet steel as bushings or threaded nuts?
[22:09:03] <enleth> they are not rivet nuts
[22:09:10] <pink_vampire> we need to make voice conference server
[22:10:12] <enleth> rivet nuts have a flange that sits on the sheet, those have a flange that sit in a hexagonal through hole and stay there by... who knows what
[22:10:22] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: you could finally hear me pretending to talk lol
[22:10:46] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: what do you mean?
[22:10:55] <XXCoder> I dont know how to talk via voice lol
[22:11:51] <pink_vampire> so how you communicate?
[22:12:00] <XXCoder> ASL, american sign language
[22:12:18] <pink_vampire> cool!
[22:13:26] <pink_vampire> the typing destroyed my nails.
[22:13:49] <pink_vampire> and now thay longer then you rememnber.
[22:13:51] <XXCoder> imho long nails is iseless
[22:15:52] <pink_vampire> there is a channel of italian girl with very long amazing nails. and she grew then so fast. I'm sure she don't know how end mill look like.
[22:16:22] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/user/danipink89/videos
[22:17:14] <XXCoder> nails is much an annoyance yet we need em lol
[22:17:53] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: look at here videos..
[22:19:06] <pink_vampire> my nails about half of her length.
[22:20:28] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: ?
[22:22:49] <enleth> that's falling head first into the uncanny valley
[22:23:28] <enleth> seriously, I just saw the thumbnails and couldn't decide if I'm looking at human hands
[22:24:05] <enleth> and I'm not easily disturbed by weird shit people do that ends up on the internet
[22:26:53] <pink_vampire> enleth: here nails are natural nails..
[22:27:12] <enleth> that only makes it worse
[22:27:32] <pink_vampire> you see my?
[22:27:56] <enleth> the downwards bend they make about halfway to the tip is problably what makes them look so weird
[22:29:36] <pink_vampire> what do you mean?
[22:31:44] <enleth> that curve makes them look like claws, not human nails. just weird.
[22:32:13] <t12> evening
[22:32:13] <pink_vampire> I think this is what make them look amazing.
[22:32:27] <pink_vampire> t12: hi,
[22:32:53] <pink_vampire> enleth: ^
[22:33:04] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: cool :)
[22:40:09] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: enleth
[22:40:12] <pink_vampire> my nails https://i.imgur.com/3JjzLV2.jpg
[22:40:58] <Duc> why the fuck
[22:41:25] <pink_vampire> Duc: ... I like long nails...
[22:41:38] <Duc> crack habit?
[22:41:53] <XXCoder> long nails.
[22:42:16] <pink_vampire> Duc: LOL, no!
[22:42:35] <Duc> are you married or always single?
[22:44:19] <pink_vampire> Duc: I'm in relationship...
[22:44:59] <Duc> had to ask. Only time Ive seen long nails is for crack addicts.
[22:45:12] <Duc> Nails like that would break in a heartbeat in the garage
[22:45:21] <XXCoder> just dont do foot or longer as it will damage hands
[22:45:28] <XXCoder> you ever seen hands of recordbreakers? ouch.
[22:46:10] <pink_vampire> the whole point that I have a CNC is to keep my nails from hard working.
[22:46:45] <Duc> deburring parts?
[22:47:11] <pink_vampire> thick lether gloves.
[22:48:38] <Duc> what type of work do you do for a living
[22:49:17] <pink_vampire> hmmm
[22:50:40] <Duc> or is there no job?
[22:50:48] <Duc> sugar momma?
[22:55:12] <pink_vampire> I need to make the hard and the complicated decisions, I don't have the time to also make the money..
[22:55:27] <Duc> what does that mean
[22:56:49] <pink_vampire> Duc: I know its just ont line but try to read between the lines..
[22:58:04] <Duc> pink_vampire: sounds like you still live at home or cant handle getting a job. I'm fairly blunt after working in the manufacturing enviroment
[22:58:39] <XXCoder> Duc: everyone lives is unique
[22:58:45] <XXCoder> there is no standard
[22:59:42] <Duc> Nothing chaps my ass more than paying for someone to enjoy staying at home. Short of a disablitiy or retirement..
[23:00:25] <XXCoder> who said shes on something you pays for?
[23:00:59] <Duc> I hope not
[23:01:29] <XXCoder> corprate take $4000 in tax money compared to $1 for people
[23:01:37] <XXCoder> now who is real welfare queen
[23:02:33] <Jymmm> Um, not this line of conversation, not tonight.
[23:03:01] <XXCoder> no problem
[23:03:10] <Jymmm> thanks
[23:07:01] <Duc> LOL ok
[23:08:15] <Duc> pink_vampire: if your a stay at home mom then there is nothing wrong with that
[23:08:16] <irontree9> gah I just repaired my machine and I screwed up a tool path and almost broke it again. CNCs are serous about self harm.
[23:09:33] <Duc> irontree9: Know the feeling. Just bound up my y-axis on my bridgeport so bad that I had to take a chain wrench to the unused spot on the ballscrew to unbind it
[23:09:39] <XXCoder> you do have to be careful
[23:10:13] <XXCoder> yeah can easily make mistakes. I just hope I dont do tool crash again
[23:10:43] <irontree9> i was careful I am just a newbie and make all the dumb mistakes
[23:11:23] <enleth> Duc: wait what
[23:11:30] <pink_vampire> Duc: hehe, I don't live with my parents
[23:12:08] <Duc> enleth: Yea tuning went bad and hit the hard stop. after I torn into the mill and fix the issue I stopped tuning for the night
[23:12:30] <irontree9> got hung up on a vertical and the belt slipped lost alignment and after that all hell broke lose. The hard wood almost caught fire before I hit the panic button.
[23:12:59] <XXCoder> whats keyboard button for panic button?
[23:13:06] <irontree9> Esc
[23:13:12] <XXCoder> makes sense
[23:13:14] <enleth> Duc: which end of the axis?
[23:13:31] <enleth> Duc: did the ball nut actually survive that without going out of specs?
[23:14:46] <Duc> enleth: towards the main casting. seems like it survived if not I dont think the wife will be happy when I buy another ball screw
[23:15:12] <XXCoder> screwed ball screws
[23:15:48] <enleth> ah, so it tried to push the screw with the ballnut out of the retainer in the belt housing?
[23:16:15] <Duc> nah there is a collar located on the ball screw itself that acts as a hard stop
[23:16:46] <XXCoder> sigh still gonna figure how to place sensors on my router
[23:16:51] <XXCoder> so it safely stops.
[23:16:58] <enleth> wait, not with the ball nut, it's on the saddle for Y
[23:17:22] <enleth> more like with the pulley, collar notwithstanding
[23:17:29] <Duc> nope its actually on the ballscrew. like a collar you would mount on a shaft
[23:17:45] <enleth> but it's attached to and moves with the saddle
[23:18:04] <Duc> nope let me get a pic quick
[23:18:14] <enleth> ok, scratch that, we may be talking about two different things
[23:18:35] <enleth> the other question is - how the hell did you get with the strap wrench at the screw?
[23:19:20] <enleth> on mine, the only way to reach the Y screw is through the knee elevator gearing access door
[23:19:58] <enleth> for some value of "reach"
[23:20:04] <enleth> no use for that really
[23:21:16] <enleth> if I had to grab and turn it by force, I'd pull the handwheel clutch off, or the belt pulley if the machine didn't have handwheels, and fit a keyed adapter onto the end of the shaft
[23:21:42] <enleth> I think that's the only way to do that on Series 1
[23:22:04] <enleth> dunno about Series 2, AFAIR that's what you have?
[23:22:46] <enleth> which reminds me that I need to have a few wrenches lasercut for this exact purpose
[23:23:06] <enleth> just to have them in case shit hits the hard stop
[23:23:19] <Duc> was yours originally a cnc
[23:23:31] <Duc> http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd465/shefron/Machinery/Boss5%20servo/20151225_225622_zpshrytd0jv.jpg
[23:23:33] <enleth> It's a factory made CNC/manual hybrid
[23:24:54] <Duc> no manual option for me
[23:25:13] <enleth> Duc: https://gallery.hackerspace.pl/pictures/Bridgeport/img_6035.jpg - note the belt housing casting, it "bulges" upwards in the way of the saddle
[23:25:24] <enleth> no way to get the saddle off without removing that first
[23:26:38] <CaptHindsight> nah, just need to pull harder :)
[23:26:47] <enleth> unless you unscrew that housing from the knee, pull the ball screw out by the tiny hole in the knee, taking care to not scratch it up on the hole edges and have two other people slide the saddle off over it, taking care not to drop it on the exposed screw
[23:26:58] <enleth> then you push it back in
[23:27:06] <enleth> been there, done that
[23:27:31] <CaptHindsight> enleth: is this the one we saw coming off the truck and went down some stairs?
[23:27:43] <enleth> I didn't have the proper hook wrench to take the retainer nut off the ballscrew shaft
[23:28:09] <enleth> CaptHindsight: yes, this photo was taken at 3:30AM about 16 hours after delivery
[23:28:42] <CaptHindsight> enleth: did you get that mill rebuilt or is it still a work in progress?
[23:28:46] <Duc> well time for bed
[23:28:51] <Duc> you guys have fun
[23:29:09] <enleth> CaptHindsight: it's operational since late November
[23:29:26] <CaptHindsight> I'm going back to watching WWII films, hasta banana
[23:29:32] <enleth> still needs some work but it's good enough to make chips
[23:29:41] <enleth> some useful parts were already made with it
[23:31:15] <enleth> CaptHindsight: so that makes it less than 4 months working some evenings and weekends to strip it down to bare castings, clean everything, reassemble and readjust
[23:31:23] <CaptHindsight> somehow I missed Kanal until now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kana%C5%82
[23:32:01] <CaptHindsight> a 1956 Polish film directed by Andrzej Wajda about the 1944 Warsaw Uprising
[23:32:04] <XXCoder> bridgeport. I kinda miss operating one
[23:32:08] <enleth> I'm waiting for my Mesa order to arrive now and looking for 3 matching AMC servo drives on ebay to retrofit it
[23:32:08] <XXCoder> but then I prefer cnc
[23:33:14] <enleth> CaptHindsight: my workshop is actually right next to the Warsaw Uprising Museum, quite an interesting place to visit if you're into that part of WWII history
[23:33:31] <enleth> XXCoder: that's not mutually exclusive you know
[23:33:41] <CaptHindsight> I'm a history buff
[23:33:51] <XXCoder> I know, but my current job theres no manual besides couple lathes
[23:34:07] <enleth> no manual mill at all?
[23:34:33] <enleth> must suck for that random one-off operation you need to do every so often
[23:34:43] <XXCoder> think theres one but its for special jobs by maintainers
[23:34:47] <CaptHindsight> enleth: are there many buildings there that have survived from that time?
[23:35:02] <enleth> CaptHindsight: on the other side of the river, sure
[23:36:01] <enleth> that's where the soviets stayed and waited until the nazis offed every last building on the west side and retreated
[23:36:37] <enleth> so they could march in as the heroes and saviors while avoiding any real danger
[23:37:47] <enleth> on the west side, not so much - some lucky outliers or buildings that were too difficult to take down fast
[23:38:28] <enleth> other than that, everything that looks old was actually rebuilt in the 50s
[23:40:29] <enleth> unless it was in the way of some planned monument of communism, or inconvenient due to anti-leftist heiritage, or something
[23:43:34] <enleth> CaptHindsight: there's just one district that was built entirely in the 30s and survived almost intact because it was too far from the midtown for the nazi sapers to bother and there are so many trees in the area that luftwaffe bomber pilots thought it's just a big park, so no point in dropping bombs there
[23:45:38] <CaptHindsight> interesting, thanks
[23:48:30] <enleth> ah crap, it's 6:20AM