#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-10-23

[00:02:46] <bobo__> I wonder if Hardinge still makes the 50v collets, never mind their price
[00:03:42] <Wolf_> http://shophardinge.com/productGrid.aspx?catID=1629 maybe
[00:07:40] <bobo__> Oh gosh even at a 50% off sale they are above my price range
[00:10:56] <Wolf_> http://www.spsspindle.com/sps-spindle-services/spindle-rebuilding/spindles-we-service/ lol looks like every thing but a Van-Norman
[00:12:21] <t12> i wonder if my ghetto kinematics will work
[00:12:49] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0aco3k384qqloxl/AABizEHHVSI9us-OT0df_HT4a
[00:13:05] <t12> to be replicated on front of headstock
[00:13:52] <t12> i guess if it repeats and is stable it will work
[00:17:11] <bobo__> Wolf I think that place is listing CNC machine type spindles, not the manual mill type spindles
[00:18:36] <Wolf_> set up a grinder on my 7x10 lathe tool post and bolt the lathe to the Mill table? :D
[00:19:31] <bobo__> you arn't british
[00:21:06] <bobo__> that would be something they would do. and some of them would pull it off too
[00:21:12] <Wolf_> or make a grinder up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzp--7VYvY
[00:25:27] <bobo__> compare the size of a 30 or 40 tool holder shank(end that goes in spindle) to even a R8 collet
[00:26:35] <bobo__> I think a R8 is close to size of #30
[00:30:27] <Wolf_> cat 30 is 1.25” x 1.875”L
[00:31:39] <Wolf_> 50V is ~1.57”
[00:32:18] <bobo__> might be worth asking ssi or zeeshan or tom if they could overlay them with a 50v in solid works for you
[00:32:40] <Wolf_> if its possible to find a 50V drawing
[00:34:02] <bobo__> hardinge might have (still) drawings
[00:34:47] <bobo__> know they did at one time
[00:37:11] <bobo__> they would tell you everything , except how they made them
[00:37:43] <Wolf_> yeah, not gonna buy one to figure it out
[00:38:31] <bobo__> there drawings were free or very cheap
[00:39:42] <bobo__> 50v drawing might be on their web site
[00:43:24] <bobo__> time was Hardinge were very easy to talk to, but I am past 70 and stuck in what once was thinking
[00:45:25] <Wolf_> hmm
[00:45:44] <Wolf_> other option would be to have a r8 adapter made
[00:47:21] <bobo__> other option could be to - look at a newer type mill
[00:52:48] <bobo__> those older mills are just the thing for pealing the hard skin off cast iron castings day in day out, last I looked foundrys have become few
[00:54:08] <bobo__> foundries
[00:54:42] <Wolf_> well, it is a neat machine from what I have read, except the whole odd spindle bore problem
[00:55:22] <bobo__> it was not odd then, just now
[00:57:38] <Wolf_> not much else on craigslist for this area, http://york.craigslist.org/tld/5258435244.html is the next cheapest
[00:59:11] <ssi> hardinge is still proud of their parts
[00:59:48] <Wolf_> big jump from $500 too...
[01:00:03] <bobo__> Wolf have you looked at what HGR is selling ?
[01:00:26] <Wolf_> whats HGR
[01:01:37] <bobo__> Cleveland Oh. used mach + kitchen sink dealer
[01:02:06] <Wolf_> not too close for me
[01:02:29] <bobo__> you and Pete
[01:03:16] <bobo__> HGR has a web site
[01:04:13] <Wolf_> 340mi...
[01:05:16] <bobo__> bet if you took a flashlite and poked around there might even be some 50v collets
[01:05:16] <Wolf_> like $204 just in fuel to get there and back
[01:05:36] <ssi> lol
[01:05:39] * ssi does some math
[01:05:48] <Wolf_> give or take $50
[01:06:06] <ssi> it would cost me $32 round trip to go that distance in my car
[01:06:37] <ssi> it would cost me $121 round trip to go that distance in my airplane, at 180mph
[01:06:38] <Wolf_> thats w/ the truck, w/ just under 3-4 tons available for load
[01:07:08] <ssi> if I took the car and the trailer I could haul a ton back, and I'd probably burn $50 in fuel instead of $32
[01:07:54] <ssi> I could haul four tons for about the same price in fuel as your truck
[01:07:57] <ssi> it'd just take me four trips :)
[01:07:58] <Wolf_> $51 for the car, figuring $3 gal fuel
[01:08:06] <bobo__> $204 wont even buy a Hardinge collet , you are too young to be thinking like me . get with it whipper snapper
[01:10:15] <Wolf_> wait, wtf are you driving ssi?
[01:10:42] <Wolf_> 680mi round trip for me to cleveland
[01:11:10] <ssi> a car so good on gas the government had to ban it
[01:11:39] <ssi> I never believed any of those conspiracy theories before
[01:11:48] <Wolf_> what is it?
[01:11:55] <ssi> the ones like "did you hear about the guy who invented a carburetor that could get 100mpg? he disappeared"
[01:12:09] <bobo__> Wolf who cares what ssi is driving. offer to pay $40 for gas
[01:12:17] <ssi> vw diesel
[01:12:22] <Wolf_> my pos only gets like ~40 mpg
[01:12:25] <ssi> I figured that at 50mpg
[01:12:34] <ssi> but on long highway trips I can actually do 57+
[01:12:57] <Wolf_> but mine isn’t broken in, and has the DPF/DEF system as well
[01:13:01] <Wolf_> and its DSG
[01:13:11] <ssi> I have dpf
[01:13:16] <ssi> no def on the jetta
[01:13:24] <ssi> dsg is a penalty for sure
[01:13:34] <ssi> mine's definitely broken in though
[01:13:35] <Wolf_> I have a ’15 golf wagon
[01:13:39] <ssi> it's a 2014 and I have 63k on it
[01:13:43] <Wolf_> not even 4k on it yet lol
[01:13:54] <bobo__> swing by here and I will pop for lunch or dinner
[01:14:02] <ssi> but it's 100% stock except for the radio :)
[01:14:14] <ssi> 57+mpg requires driving 62mph and no AC
[01:14:31] <ssi> and it doesn't take much traffic to wreck those numbers
[01:14:56] <ssi> you better hang onto that car though, cause you'll never get another one
[01:15:01] <Wolf_> yeah, I leave mine on auto climate… and don’t drive 62 lol
[01:15:29] <Wolf_> I’m waiting for the recall, then going to get a malone tune :D
[01:15:44] <ssi> yeah I intend to do the same thinhg
[01:15:56] <ssi> but I noticed malone took the details about their dpf delete tune off the website
[01:15:59] <ssi> that concerns me a bit
[01:16:14] <Wolf_> one of the MD guys has the DPF delete tune
[01:16:18] <Wolf_> on a 15
[01:16:54] <Wolf_> I don’t think malone listed the dpf/def delete tune on the site for the ’15, but it does exist
[01:17:11] <ssi> I hope so
[01:17:35] <ssi> I've heard gains of 7-10mpg from the dpf delete tune
[01:17:43] <ssi> I need that in my life
[01:18:03] <Wolf_> I was thinking about hitting the guy up that has the delete done and seeing if I can borrow his stock parts for a weekend and build a welding jig up :D
[01:18:22] <ssi> that's a good idea
[01:19:15] <ssi> I'll have my 2 post lift soon enough, maybe it won't be so hateful to remove that I can't pull it and pattern it
[01:19:44] <ssi> based on this, yours is different than mine
[01:19:47] <ssi> http://www.rawtekinc.com/products/tdi-dpf-delete-downpipe-for-vw-2-0l-cr-gen-1?variant=962505735
[01:20:00] <Wolf_> yeah it is
[01:20:43] <ssi> god this looks like a miserable job hahah
[01:20:46] <ssi> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0637/8533/files/Rawtek_Downpipe_and_Midpipe_Installation_Guide_v3.pdf?651
[01:21:51] <Wolf_> http://s685.photobucket.com/user/Richkid064/media/image7.jpeg.html
[01:21:55] <ssi> oh emm gee they're dropping the subframe and the axles :(
[01:22:00] <Wolf_> well that looks like a total bitch
[01:23:15] <ssi> one other thing I'd really like to do to that car is put some better brakes on it
[01:23:25] <ssi> I traded a '12 Golf R in for the TDI
[01:23:32] <Wolf_> hah yeah
[01:23:33] <ssi> and I thought I was gonna die for the first month
[01:23:36] <ssi> the brakes feel SOOOOO spongy
[01:24:09] <Wolf_> the wagen isn’t very impressive on the brake end of thing either
[01:24:24] <Wolf_> look really damn small in 18” wheels too
[01:24:37] <Wolf_> http://s685.photobucket.com/user/Richkid064/media/image13_1.jpeg.html
[01:24:58] <ssi> lol dang
[01:25:19] <Wolf_> I have no idea wtf all that crap is there lol
[01:25:58] <Wolf_> looks like that down pipe might work tho
[01:26:35] <ssi> you know what?
[01:26:47] <ssi> I think if I do this, I'll pay someone to make and install :)
[01:27:18] <Wolf_> Thinking the same thing here
[01:28:35] <ssi> yeah... that looks like about the worst possible job
[01:29:14] <ssi> I have all the arms and the top plate of my lift painted
[01:29:23] <ssi> need to wire brush and paint the colums and actuators
[01:30:13] <Wolf_> ok that doesn’t look that bad http://s685.photobucket.com/user/Richkid064/media/image14_1.jpeg.html
[01:33:39] <bobo__> Wolf & ssi hgrinc.com they even have kitchen sinks
[01:44:10] <bobo__> Wolf hgr had a Maho MH800e2 #0615-145-0013 that last time I looked it was $3,500 . if you are interested , look up that hgr # for a idea of what is on the used market
[01:45:16] <bobo__> could call them and ask what that item number sold for
[01:47:47] <Wolf_> http://baltimore.craigslist.org/bfs/5222996623.html go big?
[01:48:25] <Connor> or go home! :)
[01:49:21] <bobo__> Maho was a better machine. back later
[01:49:48] <archivist> will entertain offers
[01:50:18] <Wolf_> wonder where he got the Maho from, I don’t see any listed local to me lol
[02:31:12] <Deejay> moin
[04:37:03] <XXCoder> tiwake: nicw
[05:08:38] <XXCoder> lol http://36.media.tumblr.com/243cad11a01436b6eb3e1b8c357e79f3/tumblr_nwj4sgkpPE1rvya9ro1_1280.png
[06:09:26] * jthornton finally solved the mystery
[06:13:14] <XXCoder> what msystery and what was solved? who did it? did you unmask that guy yet? heh
[06:13:19] <ganzuul> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000W-Low-ZVS-High-Frequency-Induction-Heating-Board-Modul-Coil-Machine-20A/32454893604.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.10.ZZtuDn&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_9_71_72_73_74_75,searchweb201527_3,searchweb201560_9
[06:13:56] <jthornton> a coding mystery
[06:17:25] <XXCoder> coding for?
[06:18:05] <malcom2073_> mmmm induction heating
[06:26:14] <jthornton> dang it's going to rain all weekend and I was making such good progress on the shop siding
[06:39:17] <fenn> wow that's a cheap induction heater
[06:43:24] <DaViruz> finally a use for my 48V 73A power supplies
[06:43:32] <lair82> Good Morning Gentleman, I have a strange problem, I have deban wheezy running, almost done setting up this mill, and I noticed that when I try to shut down the computer, it shuts down, then it just restarts itself. Any thoughts?
[06:44:35] <fenn> ganzuul what's the input voltage/frequency for that induction heater?
[08:55:51] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/C1RG6Kt knitting metal.
[08:59:21] <_methods> i'm pretty sure osha would be all over you for being that close to that with no shielding in usa
[09:07:56] <SpeedEvil> Likely.
[09:08:40] <ssi> whoa that's cool
[10:14:10] <lair82> Good Morning Gentleman, I have a strange problem, I have deban wheezy running, almost done setting up this mill, and I noticed that when I try to shut down the computer, it shuts down, then it just restarts itself. Any thoughts?
[10:14:40] <cradek> sometimes there are bios settings for "stay on" etc
[10:14:52] <lair82> I think it hassomething to do with this page, http://postimg.org/image/5jhvcyoxv/
[10:15:26] <lair82> Oh, I will have to look at the bios
[10:15:57] <cradek> well, backing up, does it just log out and back in, or reboot, or something else?
[10:18:47] <lair82> No, I click "Shutdown" on the popup at the bottom of the screen. it logs out, then you see all the shutdown scripts, then the last ting I see is "power down" then the screen goes blank, then I get the "No Video' on the display, and then it boots back up after about a second or two.
[10:19:13] <cradek> oh yeah, then that's bios or hardware, not linux
[10:19:26] <lair82> Ok,
[10:19:58] <Roguish> definitely BIOS.
[10:20:19] <lair82> Gotta shudown and look at the bios, be back in a few.
[10:20:28] <pcw_home> disable all the wakeup on whatever options in the BIOS
[10:21:01] <lair82> Hey pcw_home this is that H97 board
[10:21:52] <pcw_home> Yeah I dont have any problem like that so its likely a wake on KB or some such option
[10:22:15] <pcw_home> also flakey PCI/PCIE cards can do this
[10:22:35] <lair82> OK, going to go exploring. be back in about 5 mins
[11:12:31] <Jymmm> pcw_home: http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G143703355573
[11:17:17] <pcw_home> Yes and 3 months later there will be a new incompatible version
[11:18:26] <pcw_home> just when they have got 90% of the kernel bugs fuixed
[11:18:53] <Jymmm> pcw_home: That's the C1+, an upgrade from the C1
[11:19:12] <Jymmm> pcw_home: So at least you cna compared the two for compatability
[11:21:31] <FinboySlick> It's pretty cheap.
[11:21:50] <Jymmm> pcw_home: I was thinking mostly for a embedded/dedicate batery powered SDR
[11:22:04] <FinboySlick> I like the eMMC option too.
[11:22:34] <Jymmm> serial console too
[11:26:42] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: If you want speed/power, blah blah http://odroid.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=en:odroid-xu4
[11:27:25] <ssi> did someone say power? DID SOMEONE SAY SPEED?!
[11:27:26] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLTh4uVJduI
[11:30:44] <enleth> I winder if anyone milled a pumpkin face on a vertical mill before.
[11:30:55] <enleth> *wonder
[11:32:45] <enleth> The next Nighthack at my local Hackerspace happens to be on Halloween and somebody suggested that.
[11:33:20] <enleth> Also, mixing the dough for a pumpkin pie with the mill.
[11:33:45] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBw25CrUS-o 'night hacking, telling no lies'
[11:34:16] <ganzuul> fenn: Dunno. It was on hackaday.
[11:34:38] <enleth> A standard mixer beater should fit nicely in a collet.
[11:34:58] <fenn> it's a pretty piece of electronics for sure
[11:35:10] <enleth> But lack of a rotary table would hinder mixing effectiveness.
[11:35:16] <ganzuul> Cheap!
[11:35:40] <SpeedEvil> enleth: extruding mixer.
[11:36:29] <fenn> i wonder what the maximum size iron crucible would be for 1000W of induction input
[11:36:44] <SpeedEvil> fenn: that depends if you go vacuum.
[11:36:48] <fenn> maybe it makes more sense to just make an arc furnace
[11:37:12] <fenn> someone invent a wireless heat pump!
[11:39:14] <enleth> fenn: it's already there.
[11:39:25] <enleth> It's called induction heating.
[11:40:55] <SpeedEvil> http://orig09.deviantart.net/bb8b/f/2013/289/a/2/double_doge_bagel__by_marjakike-d6qobjy.jpg - why I need a 3d food printer.
[11:42:05] <fenn> ssi that HP ad is incredible, how does it even exist in this universe
[11:42:25] <Jymmm> ssi: CAN YOU FEEL THE POWER! I knew that you could =)
[11:43:19] <Jymmm> enleth: When I hear shit like that, it just enforces why I will NEVER set foot in a 'hackerspace' even more.
[11:44:32] <lair82> pcw_home, I looked at every thing in the bios, "wake" related, and it is all disabled, I removed the wireless pci card, and tried it again, and it still restarts. Could the bios need updated?
[11:44:58] <enleth> Jymmm: what
[11:44:59] <Jymmm> lair82: Is there a BIOS update available?
[11:45:18] <Jymmm> lair82: Looked at the release notes?
[11:46:11] <lair82> I am not sure, and I'm not at the machine now to see what the current bios is to look it up.
[11:46:33] <lair82> I will have to look at it when I get back to the machine in about and hour
[11:47:08] <enleth> Jymmm: care to elaborate?
[11:47:10] <Jymmm> lair82: what brand mobo?
[11:47:16] <Roguish> lair82: check the battery.
[11:47:36] <lair82> Asrock H97M Pro4
[11:47:44] <Roguish> also, any jumpers on the board for BIOS setting/access ???
[11:49:38] <Jymmm> lair82: http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2494397/asrock-h97m-pro4-system-turns-times.html
[11:51:50] <enleth> I guess not. Well, that's rude. As is making sweeping generalizations about people one doesn't know.
[11:58:42] <malcom2073_> enleth: It's easier to insult, than to educate
[12:01:05] <enleth> malcom2073_: I can see that.
[12:01:42] <pcw_home> lair82: it looks like you need to turn off "Smart connect"
[12:25:30] <lair82> Ok, heading back down there now, I will see what I have "Smart connect" set to first,
[12:28:18] <ssi> fenn: I KNOW RIGHT
[12:28:37] <mutilator> hey guys, any recommendations on a bit for gummy metals? i've tried this https://www.2linc.com/engraving/tough_tip_AL_1-4.htm but it seems to push lots of metal to the edge of the engraved area so it's full of burs, it doesnt cleanly cut it
[12:29:26] <cradek> what metal and what diameter cutter and what spindle speed?
[12:30:41] <mutilator> tried aluminum and nickle, just think of those cheapo pendants
[12:30:59] <mutilator> cutter is a 1/4" shaft .01" tip
[12:31:14] <mutilator> 60 degree
[12:31:26] <cradek> oh so you're engraving, barely cutting
[12:31:30] <mutilator> yea
[12:31:34] <cradek> I predict your spindle speed is wayyyy too slow
[12:31:51] <tiwork> you want uber high speed
[12:31:54] <archivist> and the cutter not sharp enough
[12:32:00] <tiwork> 10,000RPM+
[12:32:04] <mutilator> so probly just too slow
[12:32:06] <mutilator> yea
[12:32:20] <cradek> what speed are you using?
[12:33:01] <mutilator> it's just a dewalt tile router
[12:33:06] <mutilator> adjustable speed but i cant tell what speed it is
[12:33:09] <tiwork> squirting some WD40, or some other thin lubercation on the surface will help
[12:33:13] <cradek> turn it up all the way
[12:33:17] <mutilator> ~70% seemed to leave the least amount of materal
[12:33:36] <maxcnc> tiwork: but it also stinks #
[12:33:36] <cradek> yeah, try cutting under a little puddle of WD40
[12:33:45] <mutilator> i'll give that a try tiwork
[12:33:57] <cradek> what kind of aluminum? some are super gummy
[12:34:03] <archivist> lubricant fo r sticky metal to help stop built up edge and rubbing
[12:34:38] <tiwork> I work with a lot of copper and aluminum... they are pretty darn gummy... lol
[12:35:27] <mutilator> yea i had an old copper heatsink i've tried doing tests with
[12:35:42] <mutilator> didnt know if a different bit might help too
[12:36:00] <maxcnc> copper needs nly fresh sharpen tools with special angel
[12:36:21] <maxcnc> also inserts are for copper available
[12:36:41] <archivist> razor sharp, half hearted sharp need not apply
[12:36:52] <Erant> Hmm, do the people from Mesa ever frequent this channel?
[12:36:55] <tiwork> yeah
[12:37:10] <maxcnc> Erant: just ask
[12:37:11] <tiwork> the kind of sharp you get cuts from when you look at it wrong
[12:37:24] <maxcnc> Erant: lots of us using this stuff
[12:37:33] <tiwork> http://www.robertsonprecision.com/SHEAR_GEOMETRY%C2%AE
[12:37:45] <tiwork> thats my favorite lathe tool for copper and aluminum
[12:37:48] <archivist> tiwake, had two of those cuts on tuesday
[12:37:50] <Erant> Oh, it's more that I called them last week about my order, and they said the 7i78 I ordered still needed to be tested.
[12:37:57] <Erant> Which they'd get to this week
[12:38:11] <Erant> But now they're not picking up the phone (and my order's still just 'Pending')
[12:38:12] <maxcnc> ask pcw on this
[12:38:23] <Erant> pcw_home: Ping?
[12:38:33] <mutilator> like what specifically?
[12:38:40] <mutilator> this is just to get my wife to use the CNC
[12:38:46] <mutilator> she does metal charm stamping stuff
[12:38:59] <mutilator> she wanted to mill other designs than what she can stamp
[12:39:04] <Erant> PCW: and a ping here :)
[12:39:40] <maxcnc> mutilator: build here a own one as i did
[12:39:58] <maxcnc> a little one beside the home cooking mashine
[12:40:11] <mutilator> maxcnc: perhaps but i want to buy a laser too
[12:40:14] <mutilator> :P
[12:40:21] <maxcnc> 250x250x350mm
[12:40:32] <tiwork> archivist: you happen to know about anodizing?
[12:40:47] <maxcnc> but dont forget larger then a microwave or oven door
[12:41:13] <Jymmm> lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSY3VuhCDZM
[12:41:18] <tiwork> I'm trying to decide if I need a salt to seal with or not
[12:41:21] <maxcnc> homebuild lasers are more cool
[12:41:24] <tiwork> and just use boiling water
[12:41:29] <archivist> tiwake, I worked at a place that did it but on other jobs not anodizing
[12:42:06] <tiwork> like if I put it in a nickle acetate bath or just hot water bath
[12:42:09] <Erant> maxcnc: I converted a LittleMachineShop micro mill to CNC (well, modulo the control card, obviously) and that's a nice little machine with a work surface that area.
[12:42:10] <maxcnc> mutilator: where are you in this "Blue" earth
[12:42:28] <archivist> tiwake, iirc it was just hot (boiling) they also rubbed lanolin into the surface after
[12:42:51] <tiwork> archivist: what is lanolin and what does that do?
[12:43:07] <mutilator> us, michigan
[12:43:09] <SpeedEvil> Lanolin waterproofs sheep
[12:43:11] <archivist> added to the finish lifetime
[12:43:16] <maxcnc> Erant: we buld about 70+ mashines that size for the University use
[12:43:38] <Erant> Ah, cool.
[12:43:48] <maxcnc> mutilator: im in europ
[12:43:56] <tiwork> oh ok, so a waxy thing to help lifetime
[12:44:11] <maxcnc> neer the Jon deer Harvester build side
[12:45:06] <mutilator> there are some $1600 ebay(china) lasers i'd like to give a shot
[12:45:38] <maxcnc> there are mor and better ones in the USA for some money more
[12:46:05] <maxcnc> why dident you just ask at michigan State universety for a beam
[12:46:16] <mutilator> heh
[12:46:23] <mutilator> we have one here where i work
[12:46:25] <maxcnc> laser tube
[12:46:36] <mutilator> and people keep telling me i should just use this one
[12:46:40] <mutilator> but i want it AT HOME
[12:47:03] <maxcnc> what is your professin at work
[12:47:18] <archivist> tiwake note it was 40 years ago :)
[12:47:23] <maxcnc> Toolmaker latheman steel ..
[12:47:23] <mutilator> internal IT/Development
[12:47:27] <andypugh> Bother! I bought a 6i24 with a low-profile bracket but I should have got a high-profile one. Only $3 from Mesa, + $51 shipping.
[12:47:47] <maxcnc> mutilator: so you dont have access to building mashines
[12:47:54] <mutilator> yea i do
[12:48:04] <mutilator> we dont have anything crazy here, just an engraver
[12:48:17] <mutilator> basically like the $1600 machine except costs more cause it wasnt made in china
[12:48:26] <maxcnc> so get a good used tube for 100 Dollar and build your mashine around
[12:48:56] <maxcnc> 80W co is alover
[12:49:27] <maxcnc> that cuts 4mm plywood or 3mm PMMA
[12:49:29] <tiwork> andypugh: also, I'm looking for a good aluminum cleaner/deoxidizer... know of any?
[12:49:34] <tiwork> erm
[12:49:42] <tiwork> wrong person
[12:49:47] <tiwork> archivist ^
[12:49:48] <andypugh> I thought as much
[12:49:59] <mutilator> yea max, i've thought about it
[12:50:04] <andypugh> Easy mistake to make, but I am the tall handsome one.
[12:50:24] <tiwork> andypugh: you can throw in your opinion too! I'll take all of them that I can get XD
[12:50:34] <archivist> I claim to be fugly
[12:50:44] <tiwork> lol
[12:50:52] <maxcnc> mutilator: i only asked at the Universety Mechanics and they got 4x 200W in a box
[12:51:06] <andypugh> I only claim to be tall and handsome on the internet. I don’t get away with it in person.
[12:51:21] <tiwork> andypugh: context is I am setting up anodizing for my first time, one of the things I need is a good aluminum cleaner.
[12:51:27] <maxcnc> mutilator: they work most on the far end noone of us woudt go
[12:51:48] <maxcnc> so they got stuff that is out of order
[12:52:01] <andypugh> I am afraid I always take the easy way out and pay the local anodiser £10. (it is always £10, regardless of quantity or size of parts)
[12:52:03] <archivist> tiwake, the process hase cleaning/stripping of the old oxide anyway
[12:53:59] <tiwork> there is this, http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-accessories/aluminum-deoxidizer-desmut-1-quart.html
[12:54:08] <tiwork> but I'm not sure if I should look for something else
[12:55:03] <mutilator> oh..
[12:55:11] <mutilator> so the other things.. the wd-40 recommendation
[12:55:28] <tiwork> wd40 works well because its really thin
[12:55:42] <mutilator> the way i secure the charm to the surface to mill is put a piece of clear packing tape over the metal
[12:55:49] <mutilator> maybe thats why it's not clearing the stuff
[12:56:00] <mutilator> i dont know why it didnt occur to me until now
[12:56:18] <tiwork> wait, over the entire surface?
[12:56:21] <mutilator> heh yea
[12:56:24] <tiwork> (lol)
[12:56:42] <tiwork> yeah, wanna talk about gummy... plastic with glue on it?
[12:56:57] <archivist> andypugh, did you fix your dropped probe?
[12:56:58] <mutilator> yea, i didnt figure it'd affect the metal
[12:57:02] <mutilator> but it probably is
[12:57:12] <tiwork> it certainly is
[12:57:13] <tiwork> lol
[12:57:29] <mutilator> i need to make some sort of mask to clamp it down
[12:57:47] <archivist> you will be causing re cutting of the chips if they cannot be cleared
[12:58:16] <andypugh> archivist: The broken rods were still _just_ long enough to work, so I put it back together with the remains.
[12:58:18] <mutilator> was the simplest solution to secure it down
[12:58:24] <mutilator> need to figure out another way
[12:59:00] <archivist> andypugh, I wondered if you would just make new rods :)
[12:59:45] <andypugh> Plan B was broken 3mm carbide milling cutters.
[12:59:59] <andypugh> Of which I have quite a stock
[13:00:15] <archivist> I want to get into my TP2 probe to clean contacts
[13:00:31] <maxcnc> andypugh: 50pices are most to best price buy
[13:00:57] <archivist> sometimes does not re arm properly
[13:03:27] <maxcnc> question now the 7i76E is available in Europ is this also supported in the 2.8 master
[13:04:09] <andypugh> maxcnc: Probably :-)
[13:04:40] <maxcnc> andypugh: on my question or part price
[13:05:17] <maxcnc> the answer you gave to the posting
[13:05:19] <andypugh> The 7i76E. I would expect it to work, and if not I would expect it to work soon.
[13:05:47] <PCW> the 7I76E is supported by 2.7
[13:05:57] <maxcnc> Thanks
[13:06:58] <andypugh> Video proof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg-ZH-gYd7w
[13:08:57] <skunkworks> awesome!
[13:09:34] <maxcnc> ok now he needs to give the info on how he did or how it works pcw anonced maybe out of the box just plug and play
[13:10:28] <maxcnc> but i think some drivers must be somewhere but im not that pro on Eth
[13:10:53] <skunkworks> it works pretty much the same as any other mesa cards.. You just need to setup the ip address of the nic..
[13:11:07] <lair82_> PCW just gotback, Smart Connect is disabled, guess i need to deal withit for now, I saw a bunch of posts about this on the web
[13:11:28] <lair82_> *with it*
[13:12:03] <Erant> PCW: Any word on the testing of the 7i78 boards?
[13:16:24] <PCW> we have tested 7I78s but are at least a few weeks behind in shipping store orders
[13:18:31] <andypugh> maxcnc: There are some out-of-date nstructions here. http://linuxcncg0704.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/g0704-mesa-7i76e.html You can certainly skip the compiling LinuxCNC part. And you can probably also skip compiling the kernel, as I think that is available as a package.
[13:24:09] <Nick001-shop> Using a 10,000 ufd 100vdc capacitor across a 48vdc power supply for a servo, what size resister and how many watts should I be using to discharge it?
[13:24:36] <Erant> That depends on how long you want it to take.
[13:26:03] <andypugh> I know that with 300V and about the same capacitance it turns out to be a crazy amont of power, so I set up a crowbar relay instead.
[13:27:38] <Erant> It is, you can slowly discharge it through ~100 Ohms which initially would give you an amp of current or about 100W
[13:28:13] <Nick001-shop> Trying to keep it simple - just across the cap to discharge it quickly when I turn it off.
[13:29:01] <Erant> If you don't mind it taking a minute or so to discharge, 1k ohm would work.
[13:29:05] <archivist> define quickly
[13:29:35] <maxcnc> andypugh: thanks
[13:30:10] <andypugh> If RC = 1 second then R = 100 (as mentioned) and power is 25W
[13:30:38] <andypugh> So, a 25W 100R would work. But would be warm and wasteful.
[13:30:58] <Nick001-shop> Will that work for a 10-15 amp supply?
[13:31:02] <andypugh> (In my scenario the same calculation was 900W !
[13:31:06] <Erant> andypugh: There's a higher peak power though. Initially, when the thing is charged at 100VDC and there's a 100R load there'll be a 1A current.
[13:31:23] <maxcnc> andypugh: pncconf got it all setup
[13:31:24] <andypugh> Erant: He said 48V
[13:31:31] <Erant> Oh herp
[13:31:49] <Erant> Yeah, what andy said then.
[13:31:50] <andypugh> (100V cap, which is an elephant)
[13:32:21] <archivist> dont use too low a resistor unless you have a relay
[13:32:33] <Erant> But you won't need a 25W 100R resistor. You can probably get away with something smaller as the ratings on resistors are specced for continuous load.
[13:32:41] <Erant> This'd be peak load.
[13:32:42] <andypugh> Yeah, 100V is 100W, 300V is 900W. As the voltage goes up it gets crazy quickly
[13:32:59] <archivist> no relay is continuous :)
[13:33:23] <andypugh> Erant: If it is permanently conected it needs to be 25W
[13:33:43] <maxcnc> im off BYE
[13:33:55] <Erant> I thought this was just for discharging? You'd only connect it when you're discharging. Otherwise you've got yourself a nice space heater.
[13:33:57] <archivist> or wait longer for discharge and use a higher value
[13:34:25] <Erant> Put on a NC relay and you're done.
[13:34:38] <andypugh> My impression was that it would be permanently connected. It was my 300V supply where the relay was inportant
[13:34:58] <archivist> most thing use a higher value and a label on the outside to wait a minute
[13:35:00] <Erant> Fair enough. Seems a little wasteful.
[13:36:10] <andypugh> Incidentally, if your relay welds shut and you put mains voltage across a 25W 100R for long enough, then the resistor explodes with enough force to punch the ends through aluminium: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/PSU#
[13:36:14] <malcom2073_> My servo cage power supply has a 20W resistor permanently connected, it does get quite toasty
[13:37:15] <archivist> I had a few explode on one of my vfd's
[13:37:50] <andypugh> Until then I thought that exploding was only a capacitor habit
[13:38:00] <archivist> but they were the braking resistors, exploded one day when I switched on
[13:39:05] <Sync> well, you gotta have a relay that is rated for dc cutoff
[13:39:09] <Sync> which is an issue
[13:39:59] <andypugh> Yes, quite. My problem was turning the PSU off then on again before the caps had discharged. I now have a timer on emc-enable-in
[13:40:30] <andypugh> (which is actually a daft way, as the Mesa 8i20 cards report bus voltage to HAL, so I could interlock on that)
[13:40:37] <Erant> andypugh: Hot damn, must've vaporized something inside the resistor.
[13:43:04] <Sync> nah, if they get hot enough they do that
[13:44:07] <Erant> Something has to pressurize inside. Can't imagine there being a lot of air inside a resistor to expand.
[13:47:37] <tiwork> Erant: the material of the resistor vaporizing
[13:48:41] <Erant> Right.
[13:49:33] <tiwork> andypugh: nice explosion
[13:49:35] <tiwork> lol
[13:49:58] <tiwork> I had some power transistors explode from the back of my mill before
[13:50:19] <tiwork> a PAL chip went bad and told the forward and reverse power transistors to turn on at the same time
[13:51:35] <Erant> On a totally unrelated topic, I'm planning on replacing the steel trapezoidal nuts on my mill with some delrin anti backlash ones. My screws are TR12x2 and no commercial ones exist, so I ordered a tap and am making my own. How much pressure should the two parts of the nuts exert on each other?
[13:52:07] <Erant> Trying to figure out which springs to get.
[13:53:29] <cradek> ideally just a little more than your maximum cutting force
[13:53:54] <cradek> make an adjustable system if at all possible
[13:54:01] <Erant> That's sort of what I figured.
[13:54:09] <Erant> I was going to make an auto-adjusting one.
[13:54:14] <cradek> compress the spring more by giving one half of it a twist, and then pin it in place somehow
[13:55:38] <cradek> or is the springiness radial? that's how mine are
[13:55:51] <cradek> pushing the thread of the nut down into the screw thread
[13:56:30] <FinboySlick> lathe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4Ok0LQx0Uc
[13:56:32] <Erant> I have a couple of options. Two, really. Either torsion springs or extension/compression springs.
[13:56:44] <Erant> I don't particularly care for the torsion option myself.
[13:57:15] <Erant> Even though it'd be more compact.
[13:58:58] <malcom2073_> Heh rotor shaft, or axle
[13:59:02] <malcom2073_> not sure, some kind of hunk of metal though
[13:59:33] <FinboySlick> Looks like a forging to me, which isn't too bad considering the size.
[14:05:44] <andypugh> Erant: Some folks have had good results from melting delrin round a section of screw to make a perfect fit
[14:06:48] <andypugh> Big forging, and it’s going to take weeks to machine it, even on that lathe.
[14:08:30] <andypugh> 2 machinist, 5 spectators :-)
[14:09:00] <Praesmeodymium> I see delrin and pom nuts and wasnt convinced plastics would survive milling forces... but i guess I was worried for naught
[14:09:46] <andypugh> To be honest, ballscrews are now so cheap I don’t see a reason not to switch, except that ball nuts won’t always fit
[14:10:27] <Erant> andypugh: Yeah, I've seen those... I'd rather engineer it properly for wear adjustment.
[14:10:30] <CaptHindsight> somebody asked for a quote for a SLA printer the size of that lathe for printing urethane cylinders
[14:10:47] <andypugh> Sounds like fun
[14:11:02] <Erant> Right, I was thinking about ball nuts but I'd have to add gearing to my servos.
[14:11:05] <CaptHindsight> 1.5m dia and 7m between centers
[14:11:13] <andypugh> I reckon that is neither a shaft or an axle. I think it is a roll
[14:11:54] <Erant> My current screws are like 20TPI. Ball nuts are like 5, and my servos don't have enough torque for that.
[14:12:01] <CaptHindsight> I'd like to see what that roll is when its finished
[14:13:06] <andypugh> Erant: Friction is so much less with ball nuts that you might be OK
[14:14:09] <Erant> andypugh: Hmm. I'd have some wicked rapids ;)
[14:14:11] <andypugh> 12mm 12(ish) tpi: http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/mechanical-products/ballscrews/c5-ballscrews/miniature-ballscrews/r1202-c5-ballscrew-4718.html
[14:15:00] <CaptHindsight> it would be funny if they used a 1m dia dial indicator to center that part :)
[14:16:31] <andypugh> Centering it probably took days. It isn’t round, so there is a fair bot of surveying needed to make sure you don’t miss a bit.
[14:17:01] <Erant> andypugh: Huh. That's actually interesting.
[14:17:30] <Erant> I just need the end of the shaft ground down to 8mm and that'd be that.
[14:18:04] <andypugh> If you have a lathe then machining ballscrew isn’t that difficult. A CBN insert helps.
[14:18:46] <andypugh> Your problem would be fitting the nut in. Make sure you can do that before comitting. Ball nuts are pretty big
[14:23:31] <Erant> I have a reasonable amount of space, let me measure.
[14:23:49] <andypugh> Right, time to paint patterns.
[14:32:45] <Erant> The Y slide would work just fine (1 1/4" of clearance) the X slide would need to be modified a little to sink the nut.
[14:33:01] <JT-Shop> rats, my rat trap killed a chipmunk
[14:33:19] <Erant> JT-Shop: Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs? :/
[14:35:06] <Erant> andypugh: So it'd work, I just need to find someone to mill a pocket into my slide. That can wait though.
[15:12:02] <PetefromTn_> happiness is coming home from work on a friday to a big box of new toolholders and collets :D
[15:16:58] <JT-Shop> happiness is figuring out where I screwed up my code or the rain stopping so I can work on the siding
[15:17:39] <PetefromTn_> heh that too..
[15:24:26] <jdh> happiness is unloading buckets of sharks teeth
[15:25:06] <Akex_> andypugh: do you try machinekit ?
[15:25:58] <andypugh> Akex_: Not since it became Machinekit
[15:26:29] <Akex_> Ok because X over ssh is very slow
[15:26:54] <Akex_> I want ask it's just for me or for all
[15:27:06] <andypugh> Erant: I milled a pocket in my slide using the mill itself. I had to use some ingenuity as only two axes were working.
[15:27:44] <jdh> http://imgur.com/QP7nrJw
[15:28:45] <andypugh> jdh: FLint arrowheads?
[15:29:42] <jdh> meg teeth
[15:31:39] <PetefromTn_> naah
[15:32:13] <andypugh> Presumably not all worth as much as the ones advertised here? https://www.fossilera.com/fossils/sharp-glossy-5-75-megalodon-tooth
[15:32:57] <jdh> http://imgur.com/4oZFAZI
[15:33:50] <jdh> pete: I have better ones than that
[15:33:59] <jdh> err... andy
[15:34:09] <jdh> but, not all.
[15:34:19] <PetefromTn_> Im sure you do...
[15:35:11] <jdh> in an hour or two, I won't have any.
[15:37:03] <jdh> I sell them to a wholesale guy though. individual retail is a pain
[15:39:42] <andypugh> Is that the only part of the shark that survives? I guess having no bones they didn’t fossilise well.
[15:53:37] <Akex_> How the 7I76 have a 48 i/o with one db25 ? I dont understan that
[15:54:04] <ssi> multiplexing
[15:54:28] <Akex_> Ok ssi
[15:54:54] <ssi> more specifically, something called smartserial
[15:54:55] <Akex_> If i have a 5i25 how say a this card, do a multiplexing ?
[15:54:59] <PetefromTn_> its all about the magical MESANET Trons!!
[15:55:30] <ssi> there's 17 pins on the db25 that carry io, most of them are your step/dir lines, but a couple are a high speed serial link
[15:55:48] <Akex_> With a special firmware ?
[15:55:55] <ssi> the serial data carries over to the field IO processor, which sets/reads the state of the IO pins and communicates back to the fpga on the 5i25 via 2.5mbit serial
[15:56:31] <malcom2073_> Akex_: Yes X over ssh is very slow
[15:56:43] <Akex_> I undersatand how comunicate
[15:56:44] <malcom2073_> You can disable the Axis backplot to help it a bit
[15:56:55] <malcom2073_> I use tkemc, since it responds much quicker over ssh
[15:57:07] <Akex_> malcom2073_: just x over ssh or the BBB is very slow ?
[15:57:11] <malcom2073_> Akex_: Both
[15:57:26] <Akex_> Very sad malcom2073_
[15:57:34] <andypugh> Akex_: The spec for smart-serial is in the back of the 5i25 manual.
[15:57:54] <malcom2073_> Yep, that's kinda why I only use machinekit for my printer. It would annoy me to no end to try and use for my mill, due to the lack of responsiveness
[15:58:01] <Akex_> Ok andy i will read that
[15:58:35] <malcom2073_> Akex_: Try some of the remote control applications they have now
[15:58:37] <malcom2073_> machineface or whatnot?
[15:58:37] <Akex_> Ok malcom2073_ ...
[15:58:45] <malcom2073_> Rather than running X over ssh, run it completly headless
[15:59:21] <Akex_> For the moment i try how it work malcom2073_
[15:59:44] <Akex_> And how config
[16:00:10] <malcom2073_> Unfortunatly, the BBB is the right hardware for the job, Linux on the other hand is not the right software for the job.
[16:00:33] <malcom2073_> brb
[16:01:03] <Wolf_> jdh: those look like some big ones...
[16:07:17] <malcom2073_> Wolf_: https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/12032861_1153006414713738_8010784064394768845_o.jpg
[16:07:23] <malcom2073_> MacGalempsy: ^^
[16:07:39] <malcom2073_> Blew a hole through my spacer by re-tightening the set screw, without checking that the pully was in the right spot heh
[16:07:54] <Wolf_> lol
[16:08:03] <MacGalempsy> I saw that photo yesterday and was wondering what it was all about
[16:08:15] <MacGalempsy> is that an aluminum spacer?
[16:08:18] <malcom2073_> It is heh
[16:08:26] <MacGalempsy> :/
[16:08:34] <malcom2073_> Eh, it's strong enough in compression
[16:08:52] <malcom2073_> It's only a spacer anyway, no power is transmitted through it, that's what the set screw goes through it for
[16:08:53] <Wolf_> still somewhat torn on what to do on that VN mill
[16:08:59] <MacGalempsy> im drawing up the plans for a new roof...
[16:09:10] <malcom2073_> VN mill?
[16:09:17] <Wolf_> van norton
[16:09:44] <Wolf_> Its a 50V taper in the spindle
[16:10:08] <malcom2073_> Is that the huge rusty one in the trash bin?
[16:10:17] <Wolf_> nope
[16:10:28] <Wolf_> $500 on craigslist
[16:10:36] <malcom2073_> Ohhh
[16:10:55] <malcom2073_> They're beefy aren't they?
[16:11:08] <Wolf_> http://imgur.com/a/kNpN7 its a 22LU
[16:11:54] <malcom2073_> whew, that's big and rusty anyway heh
[16:12:15] <Wolf_> 3000lbs
[16:12:22] <malcom2073_> That's what mine weighs, not bad
[16:14:18] <malcom2073_> Ripe for a CNC conversion and cleanup
[16:14:25] <malcom2073_> Ways all surface rusted, or actually pitted?
[16:14:33] <Wolf_> just surface
[16:14:41] <malcom2073_> Nice
[16:14:53] <Wolf_> but that spindle taper…
[16:14:55] <malcom2073_> Evaporust soaked paper towels for 24 hours and 4 ought steel wool cleans that right up
[16:15:03] <malcom2073_> Yeah thems expensive collets heh
[16:15:19] <malcom2073_> Any tooling come with it?
[16:15:32] <Wolf_> just whats in the spindle lol
[16:15:36] <malcom2073_> Ew
[16:15:41] <malcom2073_> I'd argue him down to $300 and take it
[16:15:51] <malcom2073_> "I'm not paying more than a single collet is worth"
[16:15:54] <Wolf_> hard to do
[16:16:35] <Wolf_> some dumbass will buy it for $500 and then not know what to do with it
[16:16:45] <malcom2073_> lol
[16:16:53] <Wolf_> or.. hmm
[16:17:16] <Wolf_> buy it and part out all the guts for 2x-3x what was paid
[16:21:27] <malcom2073_> Oooo that's not a bad idea either
[16:21:31] <malcom2073_> The guts worth that much?
[16:21:40] <malcom2073_> I've often thought about buying/parting machines
[16:21:48] <Wolf_> well, not many parts on eBay for them
[16:21:49] <malcom2073_> however after moving my mill around, I think I'm gonna keep my weight limit to 1500lbs
[16:22:01] <XXCoder> malcom2073_: or buy a forklift
[16:22:04] <XXCoder> used one
[16:22:08] <malcom2073_> XXCoder: No room :-D I'd like to though
[16:22:09] <XXCoder> fix it up and all that
[16:22:27] <Wolf_> rent a bay in my shop :P
[16:22:33] <malcom2073_> Hah
[16:22:39] <Wolf_> … if I had a empty one
[16:22:49] <malcom2073_> I have a 20x40 pole barn, if I could afford a bay in your shop, I could afford to finish the floor :P
[16:22:57] <XXCoder> malcom2073_: got easy solution once you invent and design it.. time lord's "inside is bigger" tech.
[16:23:07] <malcom2073_> XXCoder: I'll work on that and let you know
[16:23:23] <XXCoder> thanks I need more room in my room. maybe more rooms in my room.
[16:23:34] <malcom2073_> There's a xibit meme somewhere about that
[16:24:00] <Praesmeodymium> ggoole earth has a tardis on it
[16:24:47] <Praesmeodymium> its smaller on the outtside
[16:25:09] <Deejay> gn8
[16:37:46] <tiwork> why is red dye more expensive?
[16:38:10] <XXCoder> its made from blood of very rare animal
[16:38:54] <Praesmeodymium> it used to be made from a toxic ehavy metl, I suspect finding the non cadmium version took some effort
[16:39:14] <XXCoder> and/or major hunting heh
[16:41:01] <tiwork> http://www.caswellplating.com/deep-red-anodizing-dye-4-oz.html
[16:41:13] <tiwork> compared to $15 for every other color
[16:41:41] <XXCoder> purple used to be royal color only
[16:41:47] <XXCoder> because it was so hard to get
[16:42:06] <XXCoder> red was easy because like Praesmeodymium says
[16:42:11] <XXCoder> but yeah
[16:43:33] <Praesmeodymium> XXCoder: your not an anachronist are ya? most people dont know much about the colors fo heralgry
[16:43:45] <Praesmeodymium> heraldry*
[16:43:54] <XXCoder> nah I know a lot about history
[16:44:03] <tiwork> why would purple be hard to get?
[16:44:10] <XXCoder> its not now
[16:44:13] <Praesmeodymium> used to be only from seashells
[16:44:35] <tiwork> and where is the major source for purple these days? XD
[16:44:41] <Praesmeodymium> chem labs
[16:44:54] <Praesmeodymium> oil based most likely
[16:45:26] <XXCoder> heh reminds me of that old dinsour sitcom
[16:45:34] <XXCoder> they was discussing medicine
[16:45:35] <Praesmeodymium> analine dyes were revolutionary
[16:45:38] <tiwork> www.caswellplating.com/violet-ds-anodizing-dye-4-oz.html isnt oil based...
[16:45:43] <XXCoder> doctor takes out bottle of orange liquid
[16:46:06] <XXCoder> said massive team of scientists found it by research
[16:46:21] <XXCoder> guy asks whats it, and doc says "it's orange!"
[16:46:24] <XXCoder> :P
[16:46:36] <tiwork> heh
[16:46:50] <Praesmeodymium> I think you misunderstood my intended meaning, being derived from oil as in oil based is not the same as based in oil solution
[16:47:07] <XXCoder> that dad brings it to wife, she asks whats it, and he says "it's orange!"
[16:47:26] <XXCoder> Praesmeodymium: nah just slightly unrelated. man havent thought about that old sitcom for years.
[16:47:53] <XXCoder> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs_%28TV_series%29
[16:48:07] <Praesmeodymium> heh I should preface my sentences, I remember seein gthe pilot of that dino show and thinking I want my 30 minutes back
[16:48:31] <tiwork> XXCoder: makes me think of an orange stereolithography resin
[16:48:34] <XXCoder> Praesmeodymium: well 90s and deaf you take what captioned tv shows you can
[16:48:35] <tiwork> for some reason
[16:48:50] <XXCoder> otherwise its adlib games :P
[16:49:30] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/images/shop/Siding01.jpg
[16:50:23] <XXCoder> Praesmeodymium: one of stuff I liked is they sometimes show the "current day" humans finding artifacts from that sitcom era
[16:50:40] <XXCoder> "theres dinsours sitting around pointed to that box"
[16:50:50] <XXCoder> tstone tv :P
[16:55:02] <Akex_> With 5i25 we need a good latensy test or not ?
[16:55:47] <tiwork> where is petefromTn?
[16:56:05] <tiwork> he is supposed to be here answering my anodizing questions :P
[17:32:44] <andypugh> Akex_: Even the 5i25 needs better than about 100uS latency
[17:51:24] <skunkworks> hmmm - pcw has said that with dpll - you can have latencies up to 500us
[18:05:50] <andypugh> Well, believe him not me, but that seems a lot
[18:18:46] <Akex_> Thx andy
[18:18:52] <XXCoder> hm
[18:18:59] <XXCoder> noticed fur dont come in anymore. wonder why
[18:19:26] <Wolf_> I think thats zeeshan’s fault lol
[18:23:45] <XXCoder> [03:28:20] <furrywolf> well, if I'm not helping others, and I'm not needing help for my own mill, not much point in being here.
[18:23:52] <XXCoder> that was last time she said anything
[18:23:56] <XXCoder> 10/11
[18:24:23] <XXCoder> [03:24:41] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i would appreciate if you stop helping me
[18:24:32] <XXCoder> Wolf_: youre probably correct
[18:33:51] <jdh> I thought all the *wolf were the same person?
[18:34:25] <Tom_itx> don't think so
[18:34:43] <Wolf_> nope
[18:34:43] <Praesmeodymium> no lol there was some conversation about that afaik they are all different
[18:35:29] <Wolf_> well, Wolf_Mill/Crsh (must have got knocked offline) is me...
[18:35:59] <jdh> I no longer have meg teeth
[18:41:11] <XXCoder> jdh: hardly
[18:42:13] <PCW> 500 usec is OK on a 1 KHz thread:
[18:42:15] <PCW> If the stepgen position and encoder readings are sampled on time (via the DPLL) , latencies just cause delays
[18:42:16] <PCW> in the write which only causes minor second order errors in velocity mode servos (which includes the stepgen)
[18:44:45] <XXCoder> probably not safe for work (dunno as not captioned) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzBHA7QxJEs
[18:44:54] <XXCoder> looks like actor for baby got pissed off
[18:45:06] <XXCoder> and people who control face kept at at
[18:45:07] <XXCoder> it
[18:45:28] <PCW> Delays cause errors proportional to acceleration and could be completely eliminated by re-timing
[18:45:29] <PCW> the velocity writes, but the errors are so small with normal accelerations that I have not bothered
[19:18:56] <zeeshan> hi all
[19:18:57] <zeeshan> hows everyone :D
[19:19:18] <XXCoder> looks like you bumped fur off for good
[19:19:19] <zeeshan> i didnt know my comment would make him go away
[19:19:22] <zeeshan> wasn't my intentions.
[19:19:54] <XXCoder> intentions well things dont always happen according to that
[19:20:16] <zeeshan> just told him simplfi i don't need his help
[19:20:25] <zeeshan> cause whenever he helps, he rubbed it in my face
[19:20:28] <zeeshan> don't need that shit
[19:20:39] <zeeshan> o well
[19:20:49] <zeeshan> ironically, i wanted to discuss some electronics tonight :P
[19:20:57] <zeeshan> i've been studying the electrical schematics for my servo drives
[19:26:13] <XXCoder> there is 2 poles, pos and neg
[19:26:17] <XXCoder> wow I helped zee!
[19:27:06] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/5JfONjt.png
[19:27:32] <zeeshan> theres a lot of shit going on there..
[19:27:51] <XXCoder> really? dont see much brown matter
[19:28:04] <XXCoder> heh
[19:29:43] <zeeshan> its got 12 scrs!
[19:31:35] <andypugh> Hmm, three-phase input, 2 phase output, so 12 SCRs that’s no more than twice what you might expect
[19:31:50] <zeeshan> shouldnt there be 6 ?
[19:32:02] <andypugh> 6 for a 3-phase bridge
[19:32:38] <zeeshan> it looks like it its using 3 phaser
[19:32:42] <zeeshan> to directly convert to pulses of dc ?
[19:32:56] <zeeshan> unlike a vfd where you convert 3 phase to a dc voltage first than invert it?
[19:33:10] <andypugh> Basically it looks like the plan is that at any time there is an scr available to feed current from a phase to a pole and one to return current from the motor to any phase
[19:33:30] <andypugh> Yes, it seems to be a fully AC device, no DC stage
[19:33:36] <zeeshan> :(
[19:33:49] <zeeshan> so basically i can't use it
[19:33:50] <zeeshan> damn it
[19:34:04] <XXCoder> it cant be converted to what you need?
[19:34:20] <zeeshan> XXCoder: the only way in my limited knowledge i can see this working is
[19:34:30] <zeeshan> if i hook up a 30hp single phase motor to a 30hp 3 phase motor
[19:34:40] <andypugh> There is probably no point. It’s a DC motor, and nowadays DC motor control is easy
[19:34:43] <zeeshan> so a motor-generator setup
[19:34:57] <zeeshan> andypugh: why i was really excited to use this was
[19:35:03] <zeeshan> because it already was sized for my motor
[19:35:27] <andypugh> Well, yes, if it is 30hp then its more interesting
[19:35:27] <zeeshan> wait
[19:35:35] <zeeshan> this might be the wrong diagram
[19:35:40] <zeeshan> that is showing it's connected to a DC motor...
[19:35:47] <zeeshan> my motor has 3 phases..
[19:36:08] <andypugh> That diagram is definitely a DC motor
[19:36:20] <zeeshan> not correct
[19:36:40] <andypugh> Looks like a field coil motor, too
[19:36:43] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/QObqBAY.png
[19:36:47] <zeeshan> this is a bit differnt
[19:36:50] <zeeshan> this is for the dC servos
[19:36:58] <zeeshan> in this one it looks like there is a clear DC stage
[19:37:04] <zeeshan> coming right out of the diode module
[19:37:15] <zeeshan> so if i could tap into that directly, by passing the RST stuff
[19:37:18] <zeeshan> i could maybe use this drive?
[19:38:16] <andypugh> If that is all of it, I don’t see any phase-loss cleverness. Hook it up to 2 phase and it will probbaly work
[19:38:44] <zeeshan> won't it blow up the drive?
[19:39:42] <andypugh> It would be a pretty silly drive if blowing a fuse in one input phase killed it
[19:39:52] <zeeshan> yes, but running it all the time like that?
[19:40:11] <zeeshan> in reality, i could live with a 30% derating
[19:40:41] <ssi> zeeeeee
[19:40:41] * zeeshan still cant find diagram for ac servo
[19:40:41] <andypugh> You will have more ripple in the DC phase and higher current in the diodes. You might well over heat the rectifier stage. But how much does a rectifier cost?
[19:41:03] <zeeshan> andypugh: when you say i will have more ripple
[19:41:10] <zeeshan> you mean the dc voltage will fluctuate
[19:41:18] <andypugh> don’t mean raspberrry icecream
[19:41:27] <zeeshan> why does ripple cause rectifiers to overheat?
[19:41:42] <zeeshan> hi ian!
[19:41:42] <ssi> ripple CURRENT causes caps to die
[19:41:53] <zeeshan> why?
[19:42:03] <zeeshan> because as the ripple is on the low voltage portion
[19:42:06] <zeeshan> the current shoots up?
[19:42:08] <ssi> because the cap only sees the ripple current, it doesn't see the full current
[19:42:26] <zeeshan> fakin electronics.
[19:42:27] <zeeshan> :]
[19:42:36] <ssi> it sees the change in V across the cap, and it's charging and discharging to smooth the ripple
[19:42:42] <andypugh> It’s mainly a problem for the caps, as ssi said. The rectifiers are each doing 50% more work, apart from the one doing no work, and the increased ripple current pushes up the peak current too.
[19:42:51] <ssi> if you have a cap across DC, there's no current inthe cap
[19:42:55] <zeeshan> andypugh: the one doing no work is a spare rectifier :-)
[19:42:57] <zeeshan> yay!
[19:43:21] <zeeshan> ssi: what is it?
[19:43:23] <zeeshan> "it"
[19:43:37] <ssi> andypugh: hey what happens if you just connect your one phase to all three phase inputs on a vfd?
[19:43:40] <andypugh> Everything will be sized for max power, and you will probably not be using max power for three shitfs
[19:43:47] <ssi> does it spread the load across the input rectifiers
[19:43:50] <ssi> or does it just fail to work
[19:44:01] <ssi> zeeshan: "it" in what sentence?
[19:44:07] <zeeshan> 20:18:42] <ssi> it sees the change in V across the cap,
[19:44:13] <ssi> the capacitor
[19:44:32] <ssi> think about a cap across a dc bus, and you switch the power on and then off again
[19:44:33] <andypugh> One phase to all three inputs? I don’t think you can
[19:44:49] <ssi> when you switch it on, the cap charges, and there's current in the cap. When you switch off, the cap is discharging to supply to the load, and there's current in the cap
[19:44:52] <ssi> that's ripple current
[19:45:03] <ssi> if the DC bus is constant, no ripple, then no charge moves in or out of the cap
[19:45:07] <andypugh> Well, you can connect Live to all three, but if neutral is in the next room, nothing happens at all
[19:45:16] <zeeshan> but i thought that was the point of caps
[19:45:26] <ssi> andypugh: oh duhhh there's no neutral in a 3ph delta
[19:45:26] <zeeshan> to charge and discharge numerous times a second
[19:45:36] <ssi> on 1ph you connect to L1/L2
[19:45:52] <ssi> zeeshan: it is the point, but big bulk caps have a "ripple current" rating
[19:46:05] <ssi> which is a function of their ESR and power handling ability
[19:46:08] <andypugh> Yes, so domestic single phase is 2 wires, not one wire.
[19:46:13] <ssi> andypugh: yea sry brain fart :)
[19:46:17] <zeeshan> if that's the problem
[19:46:21] <zeeshan> then isn't that a simple fix?
[19:46:30] <zeeshan> you solder a much larger cap in place
[19:46:30] <ssi> zeeshan: yeah, use a bigger cap:)
[19:46:32] <ssi> or more of them
[19:46:46] <zeeshan> but since the rectifier is also seeing 50% more current
[19:47:06] <zeeshan> (shouldnt it be 27%?)
[19:47:09] <andypugh> Yes, single phase input just needs bigger caps. In effect single phase input is running at a lower frequency
[19:47:11] <zeeshan> couldn't you also oversize em
[19:47:20] <ssi> nah it's a lot more than 27%
[19:47:54] <ssi> here, you like math
[19:47:55] <ssi> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/60847/how-does-one-compute-the-ripple-currents-seen-by-a-rectifier-filter-capacitor
[19:47:56] <zeeshan> if you got 1000w 3 phase and 1000w single phase at 240v
[19:47:58] <ssi> hqheheh
[19:48:19] <ssi> http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/Semi/03269.png
[19:48:24] <andypugh> Simplistically if it was three “things” through three wires then it is still three “things” through two, so 1.5 each not 1 each
[19:48:25] <ssi> compare that to the rectified waveform of single phase
[19:48:37] <zeeshan> 3 phase current will be 4.1A/sqrt(3)=2.4A, and single phase current will be 4.1A
[19:49:18] <andypugh> But it’s just caps and diodes, and you can buy them
[19:49:21] <ssi> http://m.eet.com/media/1117380/c0837-figure1.gif
[19:49:23] <ssi> single phase
[19:50:36] <zeeshan> you guys are helpful :-)
[19:50:47] <andypugh> I would say that it will probably be fine, and if it isn;t then you upgrade the failed parts.
[19:50:54] <ssi> zeeshan: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSCsIt7WUAAoWM0.jpg:large
[19:50:56] <zeeshan> andypugh: i like your thought progress
[19:50:58] <zeeshan> but my problem is
[19:51:00] <ssi> getting my lift cleaned up and painted
[19:51:05] <zeeshan> you're gonna experience the problem when youre machining
[19:51:08] <zeeshan> and pushing the machine
[19:51:14] <zeeshan> for most cases wyou wont be drawing enough current for it to care
[19:51:34] <zeeshan> did you paint that by hand?
[19:51:34] <zeeshan> :D
[19:51:37] <zeeshan> using a brush?
[19:51:38] <ssi> yes, with a brush
[19:51:42] <zeeshan> looks good man
[19:51:44] <ssi> and I had to wire brush all the rust off first
[19:51:52] <zeeshan> what is that thing?
[19:51:57] <ssi> 7klb two post lift
[19:52:02] <zeeshan> why is the post so thin?
[19:52:03] <andypugh> If the drive dies you will f-error and maybe break the cutter. Cutters are cheaper than replacement drives that you might not need.
[19:52:07] <ssi> thin?
[19:52:18] <zeeshan> yes
[19:52:22] <zeeshan> it looks like 1/8" sheet metal
[19:52:25] <zeeshan> 11 gauge
[19:52:25] <ssi> it is
[19:52:35] <ssi> 11 gauge isn't exactly "thin" :P
[19:52:49] <zeeshan> the lifts ive seen are like 1/2" plate.
[19:52:52] <zeeshan> thats why its weird to me :P
[19:52:55] <andypugh> Because any more thickness is a waste.
[19:52:58] <ssi> it's 3/4" plate at the bottom
[19:53:10] <andypugh> Cars are not actually heavy
[19:53:13] <zeeshan> andypugh: i dunno man
[19:53:19] <zeeshan> buckling seems like a good mode of failure
[19:53:36] <zeeshan> anyway, its just an observation :P
[19:53:38] <zeeshan> not saying it wont work :P
[19:53:49] <andypugh> zeeshan: You are an experimantalist yes? That post has lifted cars and not failed yet….
[19:54:00] <ssi> andypugh: overkill is his style :)
[19:54:01] <zeeshan> you know it's serious business when you need a forklift to lift the lift !
[19:54:10] <zeeshan> for something like a hoist
[19:54:14] <ssi> yeah and that's with a 11 ga column
[19:54:14] <zeeshan> i would definitely go towards overkill
[19:54:20] <ssi> imagine what it'd take if it were made of 1/2 plate
[19:54:35] <andypugh> I trust the guys who make car lifts for a living.
[19:54:37] <zeeshan> andypugh: hahah
[19:54:48] <zeeshan> i don't trust anyone
[19:54:52] <zeeshan> until i do the analysis myself :P
[19:54:54] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSCtD0xWIAAD54x.jpg:large
[19:54:58] <Tom_itx> awww..
[19:55:27] <zeeshan> fuck
[19:55:29] <zeeshan> its a magnum lift
[19:55:41] <zeeshan> thats the imported chinese ones
[19:55:43] <zeeshan> that buckle
[19:55:53] <zeeshan> google it
[19:55:56] <ssi> yea I'm aware
[19:56:00] <andypugh> We have a huge variety of lifts at work. I rather like the ones that disappear into the floor.
[19:56:03] <ssi> 15klb on a 10klb lift buckled
[19:56:07] <ssi> I am putting 3300lb on a 7klb lift
[19:56:11] <ssi> ain't skeered
[19:56:44] <ssi> andypugh: I'm not interested in doing that level of concrete work :)
[19:56:50] <andypugh> I have a 100% failure rate on my llifting gear
[19:56:50] <zeeshan> ive applied to this position for designing hydraulic lifts
[19:56:52] <zeeshan> i hope it i get it
[19:56:59] <zeeshan> (speaking of lifts)
[19:58:25] <andypugh> My chinese 2 ton hoist failed at 750kg
[19:58:58] <XXCoder> your 750kg is too over, over 2 tons!
[19:59:00] <zeeshan> haha
[19:59:07] <XXCoder> *heavy
[19:59:52] <Praesmeodymium> my step father used to design hydraulic lift (trucks)
[20:00:35] <Praesmeodymium> other than a multimeter and a stack of mechanical pencils he didnt keep much from hyster
[20:00:50] <ssi> hyster trucks are weird
[20:01:17] <XXCoder> Praesmeodymium's sep dad's fault
[20:01:24] <ssi> clearly :)
[20:01:27] <Praesmeodymium> he was a lead engineer for them for like 40 years so yeah prolly lol
[20:01:35] <XXCoder> lol ok
[20:02:19] <Praesmeodymium> would come home and say thngs like we shipped a unit to day I had to run down to the dock to take pictures of so we had documented what changes we made before shipping
[20:02:33] <Praesmeodymium> not the best run place for sure
[20:04:51] <Wolf_> figures both my lift trucks are hyster
[20:07:05] <PCW> wow 12 SCRs in the spindle armature drive (and 2 more in the field)
[20:10:57] <malcom2073_> Lotta scr
[20:12:10] <zeeshan> luckily its not the drive i havbe :P
[20:15:11] <PCW> 2 back to back 3 phase rectifiers with phase control, that's interesting
[20:27:00] <zeeshan> found my drives diagram
[20:27:00] <zeeshan> fak
[20:27:03] <zeeshan> it doesnt have a dc stage
[20:27:03] <zeeshan> :(
[20:27:05] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/IgB55j3.png
[20:27:11] <zeeshan> wait it does.
[20:27:17] <zeeshan> i missed section DM :)
[20:27:20] <zeeshan> doing too many things at once
[20:42:36] <zeeshan> could someone discuss this with me? :D
[20:42:50] <zeeshan> i see rst going into a fuse holder
[20:42:56] <jdh> furry would have
[20:43:14] <zeeshan> and a couple of inductors to prolly soften the initial current draw
[20:43:31] <zeeshan> and then more series inductors for some reason (seems like line reactors?)
[20:44:00] <zeeshan> then it goes into a rectifier diode module which converts it to DC and its simple from there
[20:45:07] <zeeshan> jdh haha
[20:45:45] <andypugh> zeeshan: I guarantee that the person here who understands servo drives best is the guy that makes them.
[20:46:14] <zeeshan> lol
[20:46:18] <ssi> andypugh: yea but you also think that guys that make car lifts know about car lifts
[20:46:33] <zeeshan> ssi: apparently not!
[20:46:38] <zeeshan> =P
[20:46:51] * zeeshan knocks on pcw's door
[20:47:09] <zeeshan> the thing im lost about
[20:47:13] <zeeshan> is at f1 f2 and f3
[20:47:19] <zeeshan> lemme just highlight the wires in q
[20:47:23] <ssi> the inductors also reduce ripple
[20:50:23] <andypugh> “Regenerative Control Unit, Here be Dragons”
[20:52:26] <malcom2073_> +1 for that
[20:52:49] <andypugh> They have bussed together so many wires that it is a bit hard to see if there are phase-loss smarts included
[20:52:58] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/T7txKna.png
[20:53:08] <zeeshan> i tried to highlight the wires in q
[20:53:14] <zeeshan> notice how the red wire joins the blue wire
[20:53:21] <zeeshan> near the fuse dpanel
[20:53:40] <zeeshan> isn't that shorting a phase together?!?!
[20:54:09] <andypugh> They are just lying about how many wires there are
[20:55:30] <andypugh> I think that they are saying that (at least) two phases go to CN5 and the Box Of Dragons as a single-phase power supply
[20:55:41] <zeeshan> haha box of dragons
[20:55:48] <zeeshan> i love black boxes.
[20:55:54] <zeeshan> don't have to worry about whats going on inside :P
[20:56:14] <zeeshan> but at the same time, it is taking in 3 phase
[20:56:16] <zeeshan> :(
[20:58:08] <andypugh> And has fuses like vestigial sperm-whale legs.
[20:58:46] <andypugh> (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Sperm_whale_skeleton.jpg )
[20:59:21] <andypugh> They have back legs, with hooves, inside a muscle connected to nothing.
[21:01:44] <malcom2073_> I enjoy the fact that you take the time to explain, with an image, your analogy
[21:01:49] <malcom2073_> Kudos for that
[21:02:59] <andypugh> I just think it is funny that sperm whales are hooved mammals, part of the ungulate family, along with camels.
[21:04:43] <Praesmeodymium> I thinks its amusing that on top of everything else the platypus is poisonous
[21:06:30] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ImFI27n.jpg
[21:06:36] <zeeshan> here's the servo drives and spindle drive physically
[21:06:39] <zeeshan> frigging heavy
[21:06:47] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/kQ3Q4SC.jpg
[21:06:59] <zeeshan> im wondering what those 2 gray wires jumpered off r s are :P
[21:07:47] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/QEZPSol.jpg < control for drive; power components for drive: http://i.imgur.com/klsm9We.jpg
[21:09:11] <andypugh> There are many more components there than they show in the diagrams, that’s for sure
[21:09:18] <zeeshan> yep :(
[21:09:30] <zeeshan> might be part of that dragon box
[21:10:01] <andypugh> Those grey wires look like a single-phase feed to something needing power. I assume those three capsules are just fuses?
[21:10:16] <zeeshan> since each leg is drawing about 1.73 more current
[21:10:19] <zeeshan> x
[21:10:26] <zeeshan> i think it'd need larger wires?
[21:10:33] <zeeshan> yes those are fuses
[21:13:22] <andypugh> The grey wires are already a single phase supply, so they won’t notice what you have done. Of course if you chose to wire to R and T then whatever they power would be sad.
[21:13:40] <zeeshan> yes
[21:13:44] <andypugh> I suspect that those grey wires are the ones you mentioned earlier.
[21:13:52] <zeeshan> the ones ihighlight
[21:13:54] <zeeshan> in purple and blue?
[21:14:14] <andypugh> Yes
[21:14:19] <zeeshan> that would makle sense
[21:14:30] <zeeshan> just confused me that there was a short between the red and blue wire
[21:14:51] <andypugh> Though I think all the lines in the diagram represent wire bundles, not wires
[21:15:15] <zeeshan> i think these gray wires are the ones
[21:15:20] <zeeshan> that go to "f4b and f4a" fuses
[21:15:55] <malcom2073_> ssi: Check out the other auctions listed now for that york,PA auction
[21:15:58] <malcom2073_> They finished listing stuff
[21:16:06] <malcom2073_> Gasoline forklift for $25, needs a new carb
[21:16:08] <malcom2073_> that's an easy fix
[21:16:56] <zeeshan> okay thats enough thinking for a friday night
[21:16:59] <ssi> hah
[21:17:31] <ssi> zeeshan: I got one of those stmbl servo drives built
[21:17:32] <andypugh> zeeshan: Yes then to the transformer for control power
[21:17:48] <ssi> but I put the HV mcu in 180 degrees out in my late night soldering fever, and kilt it
[21:17:54] <Praesmeodymium> seasoning?
[21:17:58] <zeeshan> stmbl servo drives? :P
[21:18:05] <Praesmeodymium> oh wrong window whoops
[21:18:05] <malcom2073_> Lol damn
[21:18:08] <ssi> zeeshan: https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl
[21:18:33] <malcom2073_> ssi: Also tons of metal stock, you should rent a uhaul for the return trip :-P
[21:18:38] <ssi> malcom2073_: haha
[21:18:46] <ssi> I got outbid on both chick vises
[21:18:49] <malcom2073_> Haha
[21:18:51] <ssi> dunno about that bore gage
[21:18:58] <malcom2073_> I wait until the last minute
[21:19:01] <malcom2073_> just in casesomeone forgets to check
[21:19:28] <andypugh> I should get rid of my Kurt vice. Far too big for my mill, and has no jaws.
[21:19:36] <ssi> how big is it?
[21:19:43] <andypugh> 9"
[21:19:46] <ssi> woooow
[21:19:50] <ssi> that'd go well in my cinci :D
[21:19:52] <malcom2073_> Give youa dollar
[21:19:54] <andypugh> Double
[21:19:58] <ssi> but the shipping would eat me alive
[21:20:01] <ssi> oo double 9? even better
[21:20:11] <ssi> what I've been wanting to do is put two or three double 6's in there
[21:20:12] <andypugh> Yes. And no jaws
[21:20:15] <malcom2073_> Haha yeah, bet that would cost a prety penny to ship
[21:20:21] <malcom2073_> I need a vice period, I got nothin
[21:20:22] <ssi> kurt jaws can be had
[21:20:25] <ssi> they're spendy
[21:20:26] <malcom2073_> vise*
[21:20:30] <ssi> I got some groovelock jaws for my double 4"
[21:20:35] <andypugh> Yes, about $800
[21:20:40] <ssi> daaang
[21:20:58] <malcom2073_> I'm hoping one of these cheap vises go for super cheap on this auction
[21:21:03] <zeeshan> someone find me a 20hp ac servo drive
[21:21:04] <zeeshan> plz
[21:21:09] <zeeshan> that runs off single phase
[21:21:10] <zeeshan> !!
[21:21:10] <andypugh> I should probably sell the handle and scrap the rest
[21:21:19] <ssi> zeeshan: doubt such an animal exists
[21:21:19] <zeeshan> dont scrap a kurt vise
[21:21:24] <zeeshan> ssi why :(
[21:21:38] <ssi> cause 20hp is a shitpile of power, and nobody sane runs that on single phase :)
[21:21:46] <malcom2073_> zeeshan: Find me single phase 140amp power
[21:21:50] <malcom2073_> and I'll find you a controller that'll run off it
[21:21:51] <zeeshan> its only 14kW
[21:21:54] <zeeshan> 15
[21:21:58] <malcom2073_> wait, ima nub
[21:22:02] <ssi> I have a 25hp vfd
[21:22:06] <zeeshan> 62.5A
[21:22:10] <zeeshan> thats not a lot of power :P
[21:22:12] <malcom2073_> Yeah, off by a factor of two heh
[21:22:28] <zeeshan> my weldfer uses that much :P
[21:22:29] <renesis> most ive seen is 50A single phase
[21:22:40] <renesis> they wired me one of those to test AB amps \o/
[21:22:53] <ssi> zeeshan: why don't you design and build one?
[21:22:57] <zeeshan> HAHAHAHa
[21:22:57] <zeeshan> HAHAHAHa
[21:22:58] <zeeshan> HAHAHAHa
[21:23:01] <zeeshan> good one
[21:23:04] <ssi> why?
[21:23:10] <zeeshan> F electronics
[21:23:16] <ssi> take that stmbl project and scale up the HV section
[21:23:16] <zeeshan> gimme a black box to plug and play
[21:23:23] <ssi> it uses an all in one 3 phase IGBT module right now
[21:23:29] <ssi> redesign it with discrete mosfets
[21:23:35] <ssi> wouldn't be terribly hard to do
[21:23:38] <renesis> nom
[21:23:41] <zeeshan> ssi trust me, electronics is something i'm not super good at
[21:23:45] <ssi> the 8i20 is a 2200W servo drive
[21:23:47] <zeeshan> i can work w/ it macroscopically
[21:23:56] <ssi> you just need something like that but moar beefier HV section :)
[21:24:14] <ssi> hell maybe I'll do it
[21:24:25] <zeeshan> dont have the same brushless motor?
[21:24:26] <ssi> i could sell my vfd and use the new drive for my spindle
[21:24:28] <zeeshan> for your spindle
[21:24:38] <ssi> I dunno if it's brushless or not!
[21:24:41] <ssi> I think it is
[21:24:48] <andypugh> In a previous job we built a test rig for car radiators. Which had a 100kW heater in it. We had to rent a container-sized generator to test it as our factory unit didn’t have a big enough power supply.
[21:24:50] <zeeshan> did you open the motor box
[21:24:51] <zeeshan> to see?
[21:24:57] <ssi> going back to my pictures
[21:24:58] <ssi> sec
[21:25:12] <zeeshan> haha andypugh
[21:25:14] <zeeshan> 100kW!!
[21:25:49] <ssi> I dunno, don't have any pics of the data plate or anything
[21:25:53] <ssi> lemme see if I can see it on the machine
[21:26:00] <zeeshan> read the model #
[21:26:11] <zeeshan> itll say AC spinndle motor model xxx
[21:26:37] <andypugh> It had to make as much hot water as a powerful car engine at full-chat. And that turns out to be quite a lot.
[21:27:57] <ssi> AC spindle motor 18P/10000
[21:28:44] <ssi> 9/11kw cont/30min
[21:28:50] <ssi> 33/40A cont/30min
[21:29:01] <ssi> 4 pole, 3 phase
[21:29:10] <ssi> i guess that is a brushless motor, but I don't think it has any commutation feedback
[21:29:35] <zeeshan> i think mine has a digital encoder in it
[21:29:40] <ssi> mine has a weird encoder
[21:29:44] <ssi> and I couldn't make it work
[21:29:58] <zeeshan> btw
[21:30:04] <zeeshan> did i tell you i found a shit load of fanuc manuals
[21:30:08] <zeeshan> for older machines?
[21:30:08] <ssi> no
[21:30:17] <zeeshan> http://cncmanual.com/fanuc-ac-spindle-motor-series-descriptions-65012e/
[21:30:20] <zeeshan> heres the one for your spindle motor
[21:30:20] <ssi> here:
[21:30:21] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0W6_x0IQAAiHfB.jpg:large
[21:30:22] <zeeshan> surf that website
[21:30:25] <ssi> does that look familiar to you at all?
[21:30:27] <zeeshan> theres tons on thjere
[21:30:33] <zeeshan> i never opened the back of mine up
[21:31:33] <zeeshan> page 96
[21:32:13] <ssi> what about it
[21:32:22] <zeeshan> looks like a 3 phase servo motor
[21:32:22] <zeeshan> to me
[21:32:26] <zeeshan> it has uv w terminals
[21:32:32] <zeeshan> and the controller says
[21:32:34] <ssi> so do 3 phase induction motors
[21:32:36] <zeeshan> "AC spindle servo unit"
[21:32:40] <ssi> hm
[21:32:48] <zeeshan> and there is a signal coming on cn2
[21:32:51] <zeeshan> back from the motor
[21:32:56] <zeeshan> and from my udnerstanding, cn2 is the feedback
[21:33:03] <zeeshan> on fanuc spindle drives
[21:33:08] <zeeshan> cn2 connector
[21:33:21] <zeeshan> thers Pb, pa, rb, ra +5v, 0v
[21:33:26] <zeeshan> looks like quadrature
[21:33:30] <ssi> I wish it were a little clearer
[21:33:36] <zeeshan> yes its tough to read
[21:33:43] <ssi> lemme try downloading it
[21:33:48] <ssi> might take me a month
[21:33:53] <zeeshan> 9,7
[21:34:00] <zeeshan> on cn2 connector
[21:34:03] <zeeshan> is your overheat sensor
[21:34:07] <zeeshan> im not sure what SS is
[21:34:11] <zeeshan> probably shield
[21:34:22] <ssi> there must be an index on the encoder
[21:34:27] <ssi> it needs absolute angle for toolchange orient
[21:35:00] <zeeshan> mine doesnt seem to have an index..
[21:35:19] <zeeshan> because it's only feeding the a and b phase of the qaudrature
[21:35:22] <zeeshan> to get speed feedback
[21:35:25] <zeeshan> thats all the drive needs
[21:35:37] <zeeshan> maybe there is an external proximity switch that keeps track of the index position
[21:35:41] <ssi> I dunno
[21:35:41] <zeeshan> which feeds directly into your controller
[21:35:51] <ssi> the original drive has an "orient board" that is a daughterboard on it
[21:36:05] <zeeshan> cause on my machine, my spindle motor has this shit like yours
[21:36:17] <zeeshan> but it also has a timing belt right off the spindle
[21:36:20] <zeeshan> which feeds into another encoder
[21:36:23] <ssi> hm weird
[21:36:26] <zeeshan> and i guarantee you that has index
[21:36:49] <zeeshan> it makes sense why they do that
[21:36:54] <zeeshan> cause you get rid of the backlash and shit like that
[21:37:14] <ssi> if there's a second encoder on mine I dunno where it is
[21:37:31] <zeeshan> prolly after the gearbox
[21:37:35] <zeeshan> or pulley system
[21:37:43] <zeeshan> there definitely is a back gear on your machine
[21:37:52] <ssi> definitely?
[21:37:54] <ssi> why do you say that
[21:37:55] <zeeshan> has to be :P
[21:37:58] <ssi> seems direct drive to me
[21:37:59] <zeeshan> its a serious business machine
[21:38:24] <ssi> er no
[21:38:26] <ssi> it's not direct drive
[21:38:41] <zeeshan> if you're tapping 3/4 holes
[21:38:54] <zeeshan> which is likely since they've given you a big motor
[21:39:01] <zeeshan> and its rigid enough
[21:39:08] <zeeshan> i'd think they'd want to drop it down to a low gear
[21:39:12] <zeeshan> to stop you from blowing up taps
[21:39:47] <zeeshan> get your stuff working man
[21:39:49] <zeeshan> off single phase
[21:39:50] <zeeshan> PLZ!!!
[21:40:07] <zeeshan> be the guinea pig
[21:40:14] <zeeshan> and hook up 240v single phase to r and s
[21:40:17] <zeeshan> and see what happens :)
[21:41:51] <malcom2073_> [21:59:42] <zeeshan> ssi trust me, electronics is something i'm not super good at
[21:41:54] <malcom2073_> Stick to that.
[21:41:54] <ssi> no I don't think there's a back gear
[21:42:10] <ssi> there's a bigass triple timing belt
[21:42:23] <andypugh> Nothing bad will happen. Three phase machines _have_ to be robust against a phase dropping out. They even provide fuses that would do exactly that. Irt might fault out, but it won’t die.
[21:42:27] <ssi> and my spindle already runs on single phase
[21:42:47] <ssi> I've had it spinning before
[21:42:51] <ssi> the bearings are shot though
[21:42:55] <zeeshan> wait what
[21:42:57] <zeeshan> you powered your drive
[21:42:59] <zeeshan> w/ single phase?
[21:43:00] <ssi> yes
[21:43:02] <zeeshan> ha!
[21:43:04] <ssi> over a year ago
[21:43:10] <zeeshan> what abou the servo drives
[21:43:14] <ssi> not the fanuc drive
[21:43:19] <ssi> the wj200 I bought
[21:44:08] <zeeshan> o
[21:44:23] <zeeshan> are you sure the bearings are shot
[21:44:29] <zeeshan> or it was your silly vfd causing the noise
[21:44:36] <ssi> no it's the bearings
[21:44:37] <zeeshan> i've comre across postings
[21:44:45] <zeeshan> where ppl say their motor was making weird noises when doing this
[21:44:47] <ssi> the guy that sold it to me told me that the bearings were shot, and gave me a set of bearings with it
[21:44:51] <zeeshan> ah
[21:44:54] <zeeshan> thsoe are easy to change
[21:45:02] <andypugh> Bearings and shot can look very similar, but lead shot is heavier than ball bearings and tastes different.
[21:45:13] <ssi> andypugh: what about steel shot?!
[21:45:36] <zeeshan> man i'd love to take the dc axis motors off the machine
[21:45:40] <zeeshan> but they're 300lb
[21:45:41] <ssi> zeeshan: when I get the axis motors going, you need to come down for a few days and help me get all the fun stuff working
[21:45:43] <andypugh> ssi: That’s more difficult
[21:45:51] <zeeshan> cause each has some sort of drivetrain
[21:45:53] <zeeshan> earbox
[21:46:01] <zeeshan> *gearbox
[21:46:09] <zeeshan> ssi :D
[21:46:26] <ssi> like spindle bearings, and the orient/toolchange
[21:47:12] <zeeshan> your spindle motor is going on ebay for 1700$
[21:47:16] <zeeshan> :)
[21:47:29] <zeeshan> don't abuse it by running it as a pos induction motor
[21:47:30] <zeeshan> !!!
[21:47:33] <ssi> lol
[21:47:51] <zeeshan> actually when i think about it
[21:47:52] <ssi> you think running it with a vfd will hurt it?
[21:47:56] <zeeshan> you should be able to use a vfd
[21:48:00] <zeeshan> to complete the feedback loop
[21:48:08] <zeeshan> you dont need these fanuc servo drives
[21:48:10] <zeeshan> cause there is no slip?
[21:48:22] <zeeshan> so its synchronous
[21:48:25] <ssi> "According to the specs, the WJ200 series can drive both induction and Permanent Magnet motors. One parameter to select which, and no more explanation in the manual.
[21:48:26] <zeeshan> the only thing is the wave type
[21:48:28] <ssi> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/transformers-phase-converters-and-vfd/hitachi-wj200-pm-motors-242351/
[21:48:59] <zeeshan> Your assumptions are correct, 3 phase PM motor with an FLA under the rating of the drive. But this is NOT a servo "controller", it is merely a servo power supply at that point. To use it on a servo motor, you still need a controller that collects and interpolates the encoder signals from the servo motor and gives the output command to the drive as to where to send the load.
[21:49:03] <zeeshan> what is this idiot talking about
[21:49:07] <ssi> I have no idea
[21:49:12] <zeeshan> the wj200 takes feedback
[21:49:16] <zeeshan> its a full closed loop drive
[21:49:25] <zeeshan> it might understand the fanuc encoder
[21:49:31] <zeeshan> but im sure you can convert it
[21:49:37] <zeeshan> w/ your fancy signal converter
[21:49:41] <ssi> lol
[21:49:54] <zeeshan> hmm
[21:49:59] <zeeshan> now you've got me thinking on what to do..
[21:50:13] <ssi> now you've got ME thinking whether I screwed up buying that vfd
[21:50:17] <ssi> it was not cheap btw
[21:50:29] <andypugh> the bldc HAL component can convert between most types of feedback.
[21:50:30] <ssi> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx8ehKL2lDhfMkhVRWc2TU4wdHc/edit
[21:50:30] <zeeshan> easy to sell it on ebay
[21:50:32] <ssi> man the chinglish is bad
[21:50:49] <zeeshan> the wj200 is very much like my sumitomo drive
[21:50:54] <zeeshan> infact the manuals are almost a copy
[21:51:01] <zeeshan> i think sumitomo just renamed the drive
[21:51:23] <zeeshan> search for "encoder feedback"
[21:51:29] <zeeshan> it shows up :P
[21:51:42] <zeeshan> andypugh: wouldn't linuxcnc be too slow?
[21:51:46] <ssi> The WJ200 inverter can drive both induction motors (IM) and permanent magnetic motors (PM). Energy conservation and miniaturization can be achieved using PM motors. Moreover, one inverter used for two types of motor.
[21:51:59] <andypugh> zeeshan: Sometimes, yes. Aften not
[21:52:44] <zeeshan> in a couple weeks when things are sorted here
[21:52:51] <zeeshan> ill try to power the servo drives w/ single phase
[21:52:53] <zeeshan> and see what happens..
[21:53:01] <ssi> lul do it
[21:53:13] <ssi> I didn't even consider trying to use the fanuc drives
[21:53:17] <andypugh> Interesting, I have a WJ200 on my mill
[21:53:18] <ssi> cause the documentation on them sucks
[21:53:28] <ssi> andypugh: induction motor or PM?
[21:53:33] <zeeshan> ssi
[21:53:36] <zeeshan> that website has all of it
[21:53:39] <zeeshan> its a lot of reading
[21:53:42] <ssi> yea well it's a little late now :)
[21:53:59] <zeeshan> its funny i was frowning upon your fanuc stuff
[21:54:01] <zeeshan> and now im stuck with it
[21:54:05] <ssi> hahaha
[21:54:10] <zeeshan> karma's a bitch
[21:54:13] <ssi> "just sell all that crap and buy some teco axes"
[21:54:18] <ssi> wait that was pete
[21:54:19] <ssi> hahaha
[21:54:26] <zeeshan> pete has a good point
[21:54:28] <zeeshan> he doesnt fak around
[21:54:30] <zeeshan> just plug and play
[21:54:32] <ssi> I know
[21:54:33] <zeeshan> but we're tinkered
[21:54:35] <andypugh> ssi: It’s running an induction motor, but I have other things that could do that, if I need it for something else
[21:54:38] <zeeshan> tinkerers
[21:54:40] <zeeshan> if we learn fanuc
[21:54:46] <zeeshan> we can pretty much fix any fanuc machine
[21:54:48] <zeeshan> so it's worth learning about it
[21:55:11] <andypugh> ssi: Just get a Smoothstepper and Gecko drives
[21:55:19] <zeeshan> andypugh: this is the machine you did indexing on using an induction motor?
[21:55:24] <ssi> andypugh: D:
[21:55:35] <ssi> andypugh: the stmbl guys are trying to convince me to run them in position mode
[21:55:39] <ssi> and I'm skeptical :)
[21:56:01] <andypugh> zeeshan: No, that was actually a really old-school V/f inverter.
[21:56:27] <Jymmm> Molten Aluminum and a watermelon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgnsXPnAX8M
[21:57:12] <andypugh> ssi: I can see why they say that, but that’s becase they don’t know what the benfits are of having your position loop inside LinuxCNC are
[21:57:23] <ssi> andypugh: I know!
[21:57:25] <andypugh> (velocity feedforward, for one)
[21:57:42] <ssi> 16:32 < crinq> stmbl has a 5khz servo loop
[21:57:43] <ssi> 16:33 < crinq> you don’t need a pid loop in lcnc
[21:57:49] <ssi> 16:33 < crinq> the stmbl pid loop is far more advanced than the one in lcnc
[21:58:02] <ssi> ...skeptical :D
[21:58:08] <andypugh> Well, that’s fighting talk :-)
[21:58:24] <ssi> yeah actually now taht you mention it, it CANT be more advanced
[21:58:26] <andypugh> Ask them about velocity feedforward
[21:58:27] <ssi> because it can't do FF
[21:58:35] <zeeshan> lol
[21:58:37] <ssi> Sync: NYAH
[21:58:57] <ssi> andypugh: it's important because I have to figure out the best way to feed everybody feedback
[21:59:00] <PetefromTn_> hey folks
[21:59:06] <zeeshan> howdy pete
[21:59:12] <PetefromTn_> howdee!
[21:59:12] <andypugh> Oh, and gain scheduling
[21:59:14] <ssi> the drive wants angle feedback, and they're telling me that encoder feedback will be stiffest
[21:59:32] <PetefromTn_> just got my new Cat40 ER32 holders setup out in the shop...
[21:59:40] <andypugh> That might be true
[21:59:41] <ssi> it occurred to me that I could use the fanuc commutation tracks as angle feedback for the drive
[21:59:43] <PetefromTn_> LOVE that I will not be swapping holders anymore
[21:59:44] <ssi> but it'll be lumpier
[22:00:09] <ssi> but my options otherwise are fairly numerous:
[22:00:22] <ssi> I could give the encoder to the drive, and have the drive report it back via smartserial
[22:00:34] <ssi> it'll be a cycle late in that case, pcw said he thinks it'd work ok if I run 4khz
[22:00:40] <andypugh> You can start with fanuc 16-step then switch to encoder sinusoidal at the first edge or at encoder index
[22:00:55] <ssi> I could give the encoder to the 7i77, and provide it to the drive via sserial
[22:01:08] <ssi> andypugh: that's how my original converters were gonna do it
[22:01:13] <ssi> but I got hung up on that project :)
[22:01:27] <andypugh> You know about the bldc HAL component?
[22:01:28] <ssi> they are telling me that the drive can autophase the motor and doesn't need commutation feedback
[22:01:31] <ssi> yes I do
[22:01:41] <ssi> I didn't like that option because it'd be a wiring nightmare
[22:01:50] <zeeshan> 4khz = how much rpm
[22:01:52] <ssi> I would need another IO expansion board to make that work :P
[22:02:07] <zeeshan> 240000
[22:02:08] <zeeshan> rpm
[22:02:16] <zeeshan> divide by 4 cuz quad
[22:02:26] <ssi> zeeshan: not talking about encoder counting
[22:02:27] <zeeshan> 60000rpm
[22:02:29] <zeeshan> o
[22:02:40] <ssi> talking about sending the encoder count values over smartserial
[22:02:42] <andypugh> They are right, it is possible for a drive to infer rotor position from back-emf, current phase and suchlike.
[22:02:48] <ssi> reads are a cycle late
[22:02:57] <ssi> so if linuxcnc's position feedback is a cycle late, it'd cause tuning issues
[22:03:11] <ssi> bump the servo thread up from 1khz to 4khz and you reduce the severity of those issues
[22:03:13] <zeeshan> andypugh: that feels sketchy :P
[22:03:20] <zeeshan> a direct measurement is prolly the best!
[22:03:24] <ssi> zeeshan: it's just for initial phasing
[22:03:34] <ssi> once the encoder is referenced it does sinusoidal commutation
[22:03:52] <zeeshan> i don't understand commutation -- thats the problem
[22:04:00] <zeeshan> i understand theres a signal shot every 120 degrees
[22:04:07] <ssi> zeeshan: commutation is like pedaling a bike
[22:04:08] <zeeshan> which tells you the motor angle
[22:04:16] <andypugh> There are more ways to skin this cat than the cat has lives :-)
[22:04:18] <ssi> you have to push down at the right time, or you're fighting the motion
[22:04:31] <ssi> in order to know when to push, you have to sense the angle of the crank
[22:04:51] <andypugh> Nice analogy, I will steal that
[22:04:59] <ssi> I JUST CAME UP WITH IT!
[22:05:00] <ssi> steal away :D
[22:05:22] <zeeshan> i understand why you need commutation
[22:05:25] <ssi> I have to really dig deep in the metaphor bucket to get things through zee's thick canadian skull :D
[22:05:36] <zeeshan> correct me if im wrong
[22:05:40] <zeeshan> but some motors use encoders to achieve this
[22:05:43] <zeeshan> some use hall effect sensors
[22:05:49] <zeeshan> encoders are more accurate
[22:05:51] <ssi> correct
[22:05:58] <ssi> but incremental encoders aren't good for it
[22:06:10] <andypugh> You can’t use an incremental encoder to start a motor
[22:06:11] <ssi> because until you've referenced the index, you have no absolute angle data, only velocity and direction
[22:06:50] <ssi> andypugh: yeah, but you can "snap" the motor to a known angle with a known drive configuration, measure backemf etc and autophase
[22:06:53] <ssi> then go from there
[22:06:57] <andypugh> You can spin the motor like a low-count stepper, find the index and _then_ use the encoder.
[22:07:20] <zeeshan> im just trying to understand how my spindle motor is working
[22:07:26] <zeeshan> they dont have an index in the motor encoder
[22:07:31] <zeeshan> and you're commutating it..
[22:07:43] <ssi> zeeshan: yea see that's what I was wondering about too
[22:07:56] <zeeshan> why do you need to care about the index position
[22:07:57] <ssi> and I think the answer there has something to do with "sensorless vector drive"
[22:07:59] <andypugh> Even the bldc HAL component can do the magnetic hioming thing, but it breaks if the axis is under load.
[22:08:02] <zeeshan> just spin it one direction
[22:08:06] <zeeshan> and use the secondary encoder
[22:08:09] <zeeshan> to grab the position?
[22:08:16] <ssi> andypugh: how much load
[22:08:22] <ssi> andypugh: weight of the Z axis load?
[22:08:38] <zeeshan> dude
[22:08:50] <zeeshan> to me it makes no sense that they'd go thru the hassle of adding quadrature
[22:09:07] <zeeshan> and be like "hey lets work with back emf and all these non direct measurements w/ errors"
[22:09:11] <zeeshan> to find the index position
[22:09:14] <zeeshan> doesn't sound very japanese to me
[22:09:15] <zeeshan> :P
[22:09:25] <ssi> well the magnetic homing thing isn't about finding the index
[22:09:25] <zeeshan> sounds american
[22:09:27] <zeeshan> but not japanese :P
[22:09:41] <ssi> I honestly don't know how the fanuc spindle motor is supposed to work
[22:09:42] <andypugh> ssi: Depends… If the Z is near the torque limit then the home will be off. If it isn’t it won’t be. But is’s a sketchy way to do it and involves uncontrolled axis movement.
[22:09:48] <zeeshan> im gonna read the manual
[22:09:49] <ssi> but the axis motors use that goofy ass proprietary commutation track
[22:10:00] <zeeshan> i think i need to read abotu the 3t fanuc control manual
[22:10:03] <ssi> andypugh: yeah, that's been a mild concern of mine too
[22:10:03] <zeeshan> + motor amanual
[22:10:07] <zeeshan> cause they might be working together
[22:10:19] <ssi> I dunno
[22:10:21] <PetefromTn_> sounds pretty damn Canadian to me..
[22:10:25] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: hahah
[22:10:31] <ssi> at least this drive is all open source, so if I need to make changes I can
[22:10:42] <zeeshan> and it doesnt cost 3000 to replace
[22:10:42] <zeeshan> :-)
[22:10:48] <ssi> yep
[22:10:49] <andypugh> The best solution is always Resolvers, and I am continuing my one-man crusade to persuade you all.
[22:10:49] <PetefromTn_> ya got two sorted and built for me yet?
[22:10:53] <ssi> I can build them for under $100 apiece
[22:11:04] <ssi> PetefromTn_: not yet, have one built but I dorked up the high side mcu
[22:11:06] <zeeshan> for your spindle?
[22:11:06] <ssi> waiting on a replacement
[22:11:09] <zeeshan> or axis
[22:11:13] <ssi> axis
[22:11:17] <ssi> these are 1kw drives
[22:11:22] <zeeshan> cute
[22:11:23] <ssi> andypugh: I actually rather like resolvers
[22:11:23] <PetefromTn_> way to dork it up jeez LOL
[22:11:24] <zeeshan> :D
[22:11:24] <zeeshan> :D
[22:11:34] <andypugh> Actually, ebay is full of $75 resolvers, and at that price they do look like a good option.
[22:11:36] <ssi> andypugh: the stmbl drive is also capable of using resolvers as the angle feedback
[22:11:49] <ssi> so if I get a handle on them, I may replace the hiaks in my hnc with them
[22:11:55] <ssi> and get rid of that boat anchor 90VDC supply
[22:12:00] <zeeshan> andypugh: arent resolvers obselete
[22:12:05] <zeeshan> cause they're suspectible to noise?
[22:12:21] <ssi> I think they're obsolete because they're expensive to manufacture
[22:12:22] <PetefromTn_> these would need a seperate power supply right
[22:12:23] <ssi> they're rotary transformers
[22:12:25] <andypugh> No, because they recover from noise instantly
[22:12:44] <ssi> PetefromTn_: yes, but it's just a 120VAC rectified and filtered with a couple caps
[22:12:47] <ssi> nothing fancy
[22:12:50] <zeeshan> the more i work on cnc machinery
[22:12:54] <zeeshan> unless its a tormach
[22:13:00] <zeeshan> i don't see any cost cutting measures on machinery
[22:13:19] <ssi> zeeshan: there's cost cutting going on, it's just not obvious
[22:13:30] <ssi> for instance, in the 60s copper was cheap and capacitors were extremely expensive
[22:13:34] <ssi> now it's the other way around
[22:13:44] <ssi> so back then they'd design using bigass inductors for filters, now they use bigass caps
[22:13:56] <zeeshan> the output from the resolver
[22:14:02] <ssi> resolvers are a good example of that
[22:14:05] <zeeshan> looks exactly like the same as my glass scale output
[22:14:06] <ssi> they're rotary transformers
[22:14:07] <zeeshan> before interpolation
[22:14:09] <andypugh> A resolver might give a bad value on one sample, but the next one will be right. With an encoder you keep that error till power-down.
[22:14:12] <ssi> so there's three windings in there, and a bunch of mechanical shit
[22:14:20] <ssi> encoders are dirt ass simple
[22:14:39] <andypugh> And if you want to commutate, resolvers win easily.
[22:14:50] <ssi> also it was way more feasible to do analog signal processing to handle resolvers, cause digital stuff was new and expensive and complex
[22:14:53] <ssi> now it's the other way around
[22:15:07] <ssi> now everything is just another pin on an mcu and we'll figure it out in software
[22:15:13] <zeeshan> hehe
[22:15:14] <andypugh> ssi: Resolvers have no mechanical parts. They work in oil, they work underwater.
[22:15:31] <ssi> andypugh: there's a rotor and a stator isn't there?
[22:15:40] <ssi> I mean I know there is in an encoder as well, but it's just the disk that spins
[22:15:53] <ssi> the resolver seems like it'd need slip rings for the rotor
[22:15:53] <andypugh> Yes, but they are non-contacting and brushless
[22:16:05] <ssi> I dunno, I've never had one apart
[22:16:18] <ssi> but I HAVE built encoders from scratch, and they're about the simplest damn things in the world
[22:17:04] <ssi> don't get me wrong, I like resolvers a lot
[22:17:12] <ssi> for the same reason I like film and vinyl
[22:17:18] <zeeshan> encoders seem hard to build
[22:17:19] <ssi> analog == theoretically infinite resolution
[22:17:20] <zeeshan> when you want a lot of counts
[22:17:21] <andypugh> This shows the two parts of resolver: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TS2640N321E64-Brand-New-Tamagawa-BRX-Smartsyn-Resolver-for-Servo-Motor-/221844794989?hash=item33a6faee6d:g:p5oAAOSw6aVUnBgH
[22:17:58] <andypugh> I wouldn’t want to build one
[22:18:20] <ssi> zeeshan: nah they're not hard to build, you just micro-etch a disk with the appropriate number of lines and use appropriately small optos
[22:18:36] <andypugh> But when you can buy one at that price, and have 16 bits of position data from a 7i49 card?
[22:18:46] <ssi> andypugh: more like 12 bits I think :)
[22:18:48] <zeeshan> i need a good reason
[22:18:52] <zeeshan> why resolvers are obselete
[22:18:56] <zeeshan> i dont think cost is a major reason :P
[22:18:57] <zeeshan> sorry !! :P
[22:19:10] <ssi> zeeshan: fine, think what you want
[22:19:19] <andypugh> No, they really are _very_ expensive
[22:19:20] <zeeshan> http://www.heidenhain.us/enews/stories_0411/AUmain.php
[22:19:24] <zeeshan> reading this
[22:19:25] <ssi> as much crap as you give fw for shitting on everything everyone else says, you sure do it a lot :)
[22:21:03] <andypugh> It would be fun to read the Tamagawa version of that article :-)
[22:21:07] <zeeshan> ssi
[22:21:10] <zeeshan> i want a technical reason
[22:21:14] <zeeshan> this article basically says
[22:21:18] <zeeshan> it depends.
[22:21:30] <zeeshan> which means im completely wrong to thing resolvers are obsolete
[22:21:32] <ssi> the article says resolver systems are more complex
[22:21:37] <ssi> complexity == cost
[22:21:43] <zeeshan> fine :P
[22:22:02] <ssi> Accuracy - An encoder will be more accurate than a resolver and its associated conversion process.
[22:22:04] <zeeshan> i think a major reason is this:
[22:22:05] <ssi> that's a false statement
[22:22:07] <ssi> or at best, an incomplete one
[22:22:16] <zeeshan> An encoder provides data with guaranteed signal separation and symmetry at up to the rated speed, and that is all there is. Many encoders are now available with resolutions up to 25 bits, and some are capable of allowing the motors to run at 10,000 rpm with close to this resolution. As a result, an encoder based application will generally have a wider dynamic range capability.
[22:22:25] <andypugh> List price of one of my resolvers is £1500. I didn’t pay that, but to make them truly linear is expensive.
[22:22:42] <zeeshan> so for highspeed machines
[22:22:46] <zeeshan> which are your modern types
[22:22:50] <zeeshan> you really need encoders
[22:23:10] <zeeshan> otherwise you will need a higher rerference signal(whatever that is)
[22:23:11] <zeeshan> :P
[22:23:12] <ssi> bear in mind they're talking about modern absolute serial encoders
[22:23:20] <zeeshan> no
[22:23:27] <zeeshan> they also compare it to incremental
[22:23:33] <zeeshan> saying that resolvers are inherently absolute
[22:23:37] <zeeshan> while encoders can be either
[22:23:38] <andypugh> Resolvers can run as fast as you want too, as long as you sample at least 3x per rev so you don’t get lost.
[22:23:42] <ssi> how many quadrature encoders have you seen that are specified as 25 bit resolution?
[22:23:48] <zeeshan> andypugh: but the thing is the faster your sample
[22:23:51] <zeeshan> the most noise becomes an issue
[22:23:55] <ssi> not noise
[22:23:56] <ssi> bandwidth
[22:24:04] <ssi> that's where the carrier frequency becomes important
[22:24:43] <andypugh> 25 bits of encoder at 10,000 rpm is a _lot_ of encoder counts with quadrature. They are definitely talking serial data encoders there.
[22:24:52] <zeeshan> ill tell you "natural judgement against resolvers"
[22:24:55] <zeeshan> they rely on magnetism
[22:25:02] <ssi> Flexibility – If at some point in the future more performance or positioning accuracy becomes necessary, it will be much easier to upgrade an encoder based system. An encoder application will require only the feedback element to be replaced, and a software change to the drive so that the new line count is accounted for. A resolver change will require reconsideration of the associated converter, supply voltage and frequency, filtering etc, and this may
[22:25:09] <ssi> that part is true
[22:25:12] <ssi> encoder systems are SIMPLER
[22:25:16] <ssi> SIMPLER == more COST EFFECTIVE
[22:25:39] <zeeshan> ssi when you're designing for specifically precision
[22:25:42] <zeeshan> and high speed machinining
[22:25:48] <zeeshan> i really honestly dont think cost is an issue
[22:25:49] <ssi> but resolvers were absolute, extremely high precision references long before encoders could hope to be
[22:25:55] <zeeshan> you want the best hardware possible
[22:26:10] <ssi> and they continue to be so, but the cost of them hasn't declined, whereas encoders are happily following moore's law with the rest of the digital world
[22:26:35] <andypugh> Yes. I couldnt imagine speccing new resolvers for a new serial production project. But eBay resolvers for my own toys? Absolutely.
[22:26:48] <ssi> a modern high count absolute serial encoder is FAR cheaper as a system than a resolver system
[22:27:00] <zeeshan> ssi i dont disagree with you on that!
[22:27:02] <zeeshan> it is definitely cheaper
[22:27:16] <zeeshan> but im saying i dont think cost is a constraint when designing high speed+precision controls
[22:27:32] <ssi> yeah and I'm saying you're still full of shit :)
[22:27:38] <ssi> cost is always a constraint
[22:27:50] <zeeshan> look at dmg machines
[22:27:56] <zeeshan> you'll never find a resolver on their machines
[22:28:07] <ssi> why don't they make their ways out of tungsten?
[22:28:17] <zeeshan> im talking specifically about controls man
[22:28:22] <zeeshan> not the entire machine
[22:28:23] <ssi> don't change the subject
[22:28:27] <zeeshan> lol
[22:28:28] <andypugh> My current build involved me taking a serial encoder off of a motor and fitting a resolver. But I like the 7i49 and I had the resolver and couldn’t figure out the serial encoder.
[22:28:28] <zeeshan> dont get mad
[22:28:29] <zeeshan> fak you!
[22:28:34] <ssi> I'm just saying I don't think cost is a constraint when designing high performance machines
[22:28:41] <ssi> so why not use tungsten for everything
[22:28:45] <ssi> it's heavy, it's hard
[22:28:49] <ssi> seems ideal
[22:29:09] <zeeshan> cost _is_ a constraint when it comes to the entire machine
[22:29:14] <zeeshan> you obviously can't exceed a certain value
[22:29:15] <ssi> cost is a constraint period
[22:29:23] <PetefromTn_> blah blah BLAH blah BLabbety Blah Blab
[22:29:27] <zeeshan> but you'll sacrafice other things in the name of cost
[22:29:29] <zeeshan> when it comes to controls
[22:29:33] <zeeshan> cause they're so crucial
[22:29:34] <ssi> in the modern world, encoders have caught up to what resolvers can do, but for far lower cost
[22:29:44] <andypugh> They still manufacture resolvers, so I assume there is still a market.
[22:29:47] <ssi> so manufacturers use the cheaper option that meets their design goals
[22:30:01] <ssi> you asked fora technical reason why resolvers have fallen out of favor
[22:30:02] <zeeshan> andypugh: it seems like under harsh conditions you want to use a resolver
[22:30:03] <ssi> and I gave youone
[22:30:07] <ssi> but you refuse to hear it
[22:30:26] <zeeshan> relax
[22:30:30] <zeeshan> i can have a difference of opinion
[22:30:37] <ssi> I don't know why you think I'm mad
[22:30:37] <zeeshan> we can settle it in an arm wrestle
[22:30:41] <ssi> I'm not mad, I'm just not wrong :)
[22:30:55] <PetefromTn_> never are
[22:31:00] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[22:31:02] <zeeshan> haha
[22:31:03] <ssi> seldom wrong but never in doubt
[22:31:10] <andypugh> https://xkcd.com/386/
[22:31:17] <ssi> zeeshan: I'm not arm wrestling your hobbit hands!
[22:31:29] <zeeshan> andypugh: rofl
[22:32:12] <ssi> zeeshan: know someting about me: one of my huge pet peeves is people who ask for my opinion and then tell me I'm wrong when I give it
[22:32:13] <andypugh> And on that note, I am going to bed,
[22:32:50] <ssi> more often than not, two months later they come back and say "hey guess what I figured out!" and proceed to teach me what they refused to hear from me prior
[22:33:06] <ssi> I seem to recall that happening with you more than once :)
[22:33:15] <zeeshan> my mistake for asking for your opinion
[22:33:20] <zeeshan> didn't know it'd turn into this
[22:33:28] <zeeshan> who cares,
[22:33:32] <zeeshan> its a stupid encoder and resolver
[22:33:41] <zeeshan> both are pieces of shit
[22:34:09] <ssi> you're right
[22:34:19] <ssi> all cnc machines use laser interferometry to measure position feedback
[22:34:19] <PetefromTn_> so NOBODY cares about my new toolholders!!!????
[22:34:22] <ssi> because cost isn't a concern
[22:34:24] <ssi> PetefromTn_: nope :D
[22:34:26] <zeeshan> :D
[22:34:29] <PetefromTn_> asses
[22:34:37] <PetefromTn_> I care...
[22:34:44] <ssi> of course you care!
[22:34:47] <PetefromTn_> they're little shiny beauties
[22:34:57] <zeeshan> which tool holders did you get
[22:34:59] <PetefromTn_> and now I can stuff em full of cool tolls
[22:35:01] <PetefromTn_> tools
[22:35:05] <PetefromTn_> Cat40
[22:35:08] <ssi> bunch more ER32 chucks?
[22:35:10] <PetefromTn_> ER32
[22:35:11] <ssi> from cme or whatever?
[22:35:13] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[22:35:16] <ssi> sweet
[22:35:18] <ssi> how many do you have total now
[22:35:20] <PetefromTn_> IT IS
[22:35:26] <PetefromTn_> shit I dunno LOL
[22:35:30] <PetefromTn_> a bunch
[22:35:45] <PetefromTn_> that rack I made under my granit plate is nearly full now
[22:36:12] <PetefromTn_> gonna have to make another plate so I need to buy more holders :D
[22:36:38] <ssi> naw what you need to do is start storing them in your tool carousel!
[22:36:52] <ssi> I have some too
[22:36:52] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0hrO_EIUAEN4IU.jpg:large
[22:37:03] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSDSAQBW0AIMfdZ.jpg:large
[22:37:07] <zeeshan> ssi
[22:37:10] <zeeshan> get your machine running
[22:37:11] <zeeshan> so you can use em!
[22:37:13] <ssi> tryin
[22:37:23] <zeeshan> you making your machine run means i can get mine to run
[22:37:23] <zeeshan> :P
[22:37:32] <ssi> yea you and pete both
[22:37:43] <zeeshan> pete will beat us both
[22:37:45] <ssi> when I get the axes running both yall suckers need to come down here and help me sort out spindle + toolchange
[22:37:45] <PetefromTn_> huh?
[22:37:46] <zeeshan> w/ his teco combination
[22:37:58] <ssi> naw he's stuck on toolchanger / spindle orient
[22:38:04] <ssi> he's waiting for me to climb that mountain
[22:38:08] <PetefromTn_> I'm not stuck
[22:38:15] <ssi> he's been waiting for a year for me to climb that mountain :P
[22:38:18] <zeeshan> isnt the cicinnati drive
[22:38:19] <zeeshan> an induction motor
[22:38:21] <zeeshan> and not a servo
[22:38:22] <PetefromTn_> okay I'm stuck
[22:38:33] <ssi> I don't know what motor is in his cinci
[22:38:39] <ssi> mine is a pm motor,as we already discussed :P
[22:38:44] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_:
[22:38:49] <zeeshan> take a shot of your motor name plate! :P
[22:38:52] <ssi> but his has a very different control, axes, andservo motor
[22:38:57] <PetefromTn_> what motor?
[22:39:00] <zeeshan> the spindl;e
[22:39:02] <ssi> spindle
[22:39:10] <ssi> s/andservo/and spindle/ ffs
[22:39:17] <PetefromTn_> its a BITCH to get to it...
[22:39:26] <zeeshan> :/
[22:39:29] <PetefromTn_> lemme see
[22:39:34] <PetefromTn_> I think I have a pic somewheres
[22:39:36] <ssi> PetefromTn_: if yours is an induction motor, me solving mine might not help you
[22:39:47] <ssi> I'm gonna run grab some dinner I'll be back on in a few
[23:26:47] <ssi> damn the party stops when I leave huh
[23:28:11] <jdh> yep
[23:28:22] <jdh> crying over their quad encoders
[23:28:28] <ssi> :)
[23:28:35] <zeeshan> your mom is a triple encoder.
[23:28:38] <zeeshan> gnite! :P
[23:28:42] <ssi> I'd like to play with absolute encoders
[23:28:44] <ssi> night zee
[23:28:52] <zeeshan> pete never gave us a photo
[23:28:54] <zeeshan> just bounced
[23:28:58] <ssi> zeeshan: I bought a bunch of snapon tools this week
[23:29:03] <zeeshan> lucky
[23:29:04] <zeeshan> which ones?
[23:29:18] <jdh> from a mechanic with a drinking problem?
[23:29:19] <Wolf_> all the ones some furry thing hates?
[23:29:23] <ssi> 1/4 drive sockets; set of inch semi-deeps, set of metric shallow and metric deep
[23:29:32] <zeeshan> nice
[23:29:35] <ssi> set of 1/4 wobble extensions
[23:30:00] <ssi> I'm gonna try to slowly replace my whole aicraft toolbox with snapon stuff
[23:30:14] <zeeshan> me too!
[23:30:17] <zeeshan> or matco tools
[23:30:24] <zeeshan> first thing i want is new ratchets
[23:30:30] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSDeYDbUcAAX24E.jpg:large
[23:30:35] <ssi> I've honestly never worked with matco stuff
[23:30:55] <zeeshan> hey you got an o2 removal socket
[23:30:56] <zeeshan> nice :)
[23:30:59] <jdh> a friend bought a loaded snapon toolbox from a guy
[23:31:01] <zeeshan> when i got one
[23:31:04] <zeeshan> i realized how awesome they are!
[23:31:08] <ssi> lol yeah it works well as a spark plug socket on lycoming
[23:31:17] <jdh> who needed cash from previous drinking issues
[23:31:23] <zeeshan> jdh $5?
[23:31:28] <ssi> jdh: man I'd love to do that sometime
[23:31:41] <jdh> $1500 I thikn
[23:31:41] <ssi> even though it'd prolly be full up with car bullshit :)
[23:31:54] <jdh> he's a car guy anyway
[23:32:20] <ssi> I'm getting to where I have a pretty nice complement of specialty aicraft tools
[23:32:32] <zeeshan> wow thats cheap
[23:32:36] <ssi> I'm missing a couple things though; I don't have my own compression tester or mag timer
[23:32:41] <ssi> and I don't own a set of jacks
[23:32:56] <ssi> good jacks are stupid expensive though
[23:33:03] <zeeshan> 250~
[23:33:13] <ssi> try 4000
[23:33:16] <zeeshan> wat
[23:33:18] <ssi> http://www.skygeek.com/tronair-02-1248c0112-jack-tripod-hyd-12ton.html?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_content=tronair-02-1248c0112-jack-tripod-hyd-12ton&utm_campaign=froogle&gclid=CK25rpye2sgCFQaTaQodZgYN_g
[23:33:20] <zeeshan> what kind of gold jack is this
[23:33:22] <ssi> 4600
[23:33:24] <ssi> lol
[23:33:27] <ssi> those are tall ones though
[23:33:28] <zeeshan> whats this garbage
[23:33:29] <zeeshan> lol
[23:33:30] <ssi> I don't need anything that big
[23:33:33] <Wolf_> airplane jack, not car
[23:33:33] <zeeshan> ive never seen this before
[23:33:35] <zeeshan> oh
[23:33:49] <zeeshan> i wouldnt pay $4600 for that
[23:33:51] <zeeshan> looks cheaply made
[23:33:56] <ssi> they're not
[23:33:58] <ssi> they're really beefy
[23:34:05] <ssi> that's just a huge one, it's 4' tall compressed
[23:34:06] <jdh> trying to run speedtest on this crappy motel wifi and it has 752ms ping
[23:34:48] <ssi> gross
[23:36:04] <jdh> $50/nigt and no bugs
[23:41:53] <XXCoder> still chatting I see heh
[23:42:11] <CaptHindsight> I can easily make a better jack for more money