#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-10-22

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[00:00:00] <Praesmeodymium> that was the order I was waiting for
[00:00:11] <Contract_Pilot> the 3 PSU's not in the photo that the fans had issues were refunded.
[00:00:17] <Wolf_> I asked about LS152569395CN and they replied that they are refunding lol
[00:00:45] <Contract_Pilot> But arrived EMS Express humm..
[00:00:53] <Wolf_> except that I received the motors for that order in 2 usa shipped 2day packs
[00:02:49] <wolfmanjm> so the nema24 + controller were a typo? that explains why they are now $110
[00:03:06] <Wolf_> I’m still waiting for 5 of them to show up
[00:03:26] <Wolf_> they killed my order of 6 more
[00:03:50] <wolfmanjm> well I still need one more :)
[00:04:01] <Contract_Pilot> Look's like it will cost me 3.00 to fix them 3 PSU's
[00:04:17] <Contract_Pilot> What motor Size?
[00:04:32] <wolfmanjm> but I found some interesting ones relatively cheap triple stack nema17 which may have enough torque for what I want
[00:04:58] <wolfmanjm> me?
[00:05:21] <wolfmanjm> the nema24 or nema23 would work for me
[00:05:52] <wolfmanjm> I'd like another of the 300oz.in if possible but I suspect that is more torque than I need for the third one
[00:06:29] <Praesmeodymium> whats it take to fix em? I also have the saem 12v fan
[00:07:17] <Contract_Pilot> Y2 so23 transistor.
[00:07:57] <Contract_Pilot> But i am just going to make a 12V Supply with a Resistor, Cap, And 7812 Regulator.
[00:31:17] <Praesmeodymium> so basically just a 12v supply for the fan or conversely a 5v fan for the supply?
[01:18:33] <Contract_Pilot> Cheaper to make 12V Supply.
[01:18:48] <Contract_Pilot> unless you have 5V Fans cheap.
[01:34:45] <Praesmeodymium> yup right here this one used to cool an amd cpu
[01:38:10] <Praesmeodymium> nope nvm 12v as well
[01:40:23] <MrSunshine> found myself a nice score of 5V psus yesterday .. atleast compared to other prices ive found on them =)
[01:40:49] <MrSunshine> 3 usd each for mean well power suplies =)
[01:41:48] <Connor> Contract_Pilot: How much did you end up paying for all those steppers and drivers?
[01:41:51] <Praesmeodymium> I got some nice 12v5v 24w ones for small electronics projects at 3$ thats plenty for a duino and a couple motors
[01:42:07] <Connor> and what's the model # on the drivers?
[01:42:47] <Praesmeodymium> the drivers we got ar mb450a
[01:44:12] <Contract_Pilot> till you look inside and they are M542 V2.0 somthing like that.
[01:44:53] <Connor> Leadshine knock off's
[01:45:00] <Contract_Pilot> http://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Sumtor-elec-microstep-driver-MB450A-AKA-M542.jpg
[01:45:34] <Contract_Pilot> According to my e-mail to the mfg they are made by a leading chineese mfg and rebranded?
[01:45:43] <Contract_Pilot> for OEm
[02:22:20] <Deejay> moin
[02:49:04] <ganzuul> o/
[03:26:01] <[cube]> moinin Deejay
[03:30:25] <lottefang> the source code of position control in stepgen.c really confused me...
[04:47:58] <_abc_> Hi. Does anyone have a link to a site showing acme nut backlash cancelling arrangements? I have to fix an old mill's xy ways.
[04:48:15] <_abc_> Will improvise something, the wear is too high.
[04:59:02] <XXCoder> sloppy eh?
[05:15:57] <gonzo__> with wear usually being uneven along the length, I'd be interested to know of any clever ways to compensate
[05:16:25] <gonzo__> on my BP, I fixed it by replacing with proper ballnut screws
[05:16:52] <XXCoder> I'd sggest ballscrews yeah
[05:17:06] <XXCoder> even chinese ones better than well used acme
[05:17:19] <XXCoder> just really clean out the bearings
[05:17:36] <gonzo__> also they had far less friction than the acme ones. So kinder on the motors
[05:18:43] <gonzo__> (though still not used the axis in anger, will be interesting to see how they go)
[05:19:05] <XXCoder> cool
[05:19:20] <XXCoder> been so busy hardly ever worked on my cnc router lol
[05:20:40] <Praesmeodymium> well im so poor I have nothing but time to imagine working on a cnc router
[05:20:54] <XXCoder> you can scrap stuff to build one
[05:20:58] <XXCoder> for example
[05:21:12] <XXCoder> go to old hardware stuff, find a big laser printer
[05:21:12] <Praesmeodymium> yeah theres routers and theres routers
[05:21:18] <XXCoder> it usually has few steppers
[05:22:14] <Praesmeodymium> I have motors, I buuld 3d printers I just want to be able to cut aluminum with a decent amount of precision and it not take all day to do an angle bracket
[05:22:37] <XXCoder> ahh yea
[05:22:38] <Praesmeodymium> can I scrap a decent spindle fromsomething?
[05:22:52] <XXCoder> well you can always use wood router
[05:23:01] <XXCoder> it can cut alum, if bit slowly
[05:24:10] <XXCoder> theres plenty on aliexpress but of course not free
[05:29:22] <XXCoder> if one has mill I wonder how easy it is to build a spindle. lol
[05:29:35] * XXCoder does not have a mill.
[05:29:51] <XXCoder> just found out something interesting at work though
[05:29:58] <XXCoder> fadal is selling mills again
[05:30:13] <XXCoder> and its interface is mostly like their orginial fadal 88
[05:30:59] <XXCoder> http://www.fadal.com/
[05:31:35] <Praesmeodymium> without a scale refernece it looks like a sewing machine for a second
[05:31:46] <XXCoder> lol
[05:32:08] <XXCoder> the computer is pretty darn close to orginial 1988 one
[05:32:25] <XXCoder> I suspect they realized later fadal design (which sucks so hard) was a mistake
[05:33:02] <XXCoder> interior is clearly much more modern than either fadal designs I use
[05:37:55] <XXCoder> jeez
[05:38:04] <XXCoder> I hate how pricing info is always top secret
[05:38:50] <XXCoder> finally! http://www.fadalrepair.com/files/99835848.pdf
[05:39:17] <XXCoder> oh guess not
[05:42:00] <XXCoder> wonder if its good used prices lol http://www.fadalrepair.com/used-machines.html
[06:27:26] <jthornton> nice it's 50F here this morning
[06:30:31] <malcom2073_> Nice
[06:30:39] <malcom2073_> It's been warming up here after that cold spell over the weekend
[06:31:27] <jthornton> now if I can just finger out why the last to entities are not sorted properly I'm GTG
[06:34:39] <skunkworks> dxf to gcode?
[06:36:03] <jthornton> yes
[06:36:20] <jthornton> https://github.com/jethornton
[06:39:51] <skunkworks> cool
[06:40:52] <Praesmeodymium> inkscape as well
[06:46:26] <malcom2073_> Hmm... I may actually use that
[06:46:55] <malcom2073_> I'm working on a control panel background, gonna engrave the text/lines it out of black spray painted lexan, then backlight it.
[07:17:23] <Tom_itx> 64�F cloudy
[07:22:45] <gonzo_> will the paintnot chip when milled?
[07:31:41] <fenn> jthornton: could you name it something different? there are already several programs named dxf2gcode
[07:32:33] <jthornton> you mean there are more dxf2gcode.go programs out there?
[07:32:37] <fenn> no
[07:32:41] <jthornton> why is the name important?
[07:32:57] <fenn> because it's confusing for people who don't realize that there are multiple different programs with the exact same name
[07:36:32] <jthornton> ok no confusion now
[07:38:29] <fenn> what's the new name?
[07:38:56] <jthornton> same name, just a disclaimer
[07:39:03] <fenn> that doesn't help :(
[07:39:14] <jthornton> sorry your confused
[07:39:18] <fenn> i'm not confused
[07:39:24] <Tom_itx> hah
[07:39:26] <jthornton> I'm not either
[07:39:28] <fenn> i'm just trying to make the world not suck
[07:39:38] <Tom_itx> good luck there
[07:39:45] <jthornton> are you saying hypothetically someone might get confused?
[07:40:04] <archivist> using someone else's name for a program is not helpful
[07:40:19] <fenn> this seems like the appropriate time to bring it up, since the software hasn't been around long enough to have any links or references pointing to it yet
[07:40:22] <archivist> especially is it performs the same function
[07:40:31] <Tom_itx> they are 2 separate file formats just rolled into a name
[07:40:35] <Tom_itx> how confusing is that?
[07:41:19] <fenn> tom the problem is the already existing program dxf2gcode http://sourceforge.net/projects/dxf2gcode/
[07:41:20] <archivist> http://sourceforge.net/projects/dxf2gcode/?source=navbar
[07:54:35] <fenn> "Choosing a name is difficult, but it is something every product developer has to do. ... we used a codename for the project until the very last minute, so that we didn’t have to come up with the product name earlier. Still, even with many months to think about a name, it was difficult to find one that we liked. We made a list of objective criteria that the new name should meet. This helped us
[07:54:41] <fenn> quickly evaluate new names that we brainstormed.
[07:54:49] <fenn> #1 The shorter, the better
[07:54:53] <fenn> #2 Make it easy to spell
[07:55:02] <fenn> #3 Own the .com domain
[07:55:15] <fenn> #4 Trademarks
[07:55:31] <fenn> #5 Google-ability
[07:56:33] <skunkworks> http://schiit.com/
[07:56:41] <jthornton> fenn take a break, I'm not developing a product and I'm only using github for my personal use as no one will ever use the code
[07:57:06] * jthornton goes to ride in the woods
[07:57:13] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/fanuc/285332-4th-axis-inverse-time-feed-rates.html
[07:57:21] <archivist> some are trying it already, links come from this chans logs
[07:59:55] <jthornton> 0 pull requests...
[08:00:37] <fenn> i've had to live with a crappy name for a software project i worked on, having to explain to people "no it's not the serial killer database" over and over again is not fun and i wish i would have changed it before it became known to lots of people in the field
[08:01:21] <fenn> pull requests are when someone wants to submit a patch
[08:01:45] <fenn> i don't know how to see how many downloads you get on github
[08:01:49] <jthornton> 0 public activity except by me
[08:01:49] <skunkworks> emc?
[08:01:54] <skunkworks> ;)
[08:02:03] <jthornton> emc2
[08:03:07] <Sync> fenn: there is a project out there that is called "hans" because nobody could be assed to come up with a name
[08:03:08] <archivist> cad2gcode, now other formats can be added
[08:03:34] <fenn> you know you want to write a STEP parser :D
[08:03:39] <jthornton> I'm not adding anything else
[08:03:52] <archivist> iges too
[08:04:08] <archivist> and gerber
[08:04:39] <fenn> there are too many cad formats
[08:05:05] <archivist> too many dialects of gcode too
[08:08:17] <archivist> skunkworks, we may have been the first user of emc, the mistake was not trade marking it
[08:08:30] * jthornton wonders why no static about hello, there are brazillions of programs called hello
[08:08:50] <fenn> governments can't own trademarks (?)
[08:08:59] <archivist> possibly
[08:09:12] <archivist> well usa has rules
[08:11:50] <archivist> over here I would be jumped on if I used ordnance survey ans there is a crown copyright thing
[09:31:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20151021-chemcubed-and-direct-color-systems-unveil-electrouv3d-uv-led-flatbed-inkjet-3d-printer.html lets take the worlds slowest printhead and make a 3D printer
[09:32:29] <CaptHindsight> the smallest drops end up being ~50um in diameter so 0.002"
[09:34:38] <CaptHindsight> if you could print sacrificial patterns for casting at that res would that be useful if it takes all day to make one part?
[09:48:23] <archivist> waxjet
[09:48:49] * archivist rushes off to the patent office
[09:49:09] <CaptHindsight> xerox colorcube
[09:49:40] <CaptHindsight> the Xerox heads are faster than the Epsons
[09:49:56] <archivist> got any of the old Tektronix wax heads?
[09:51:17] <CaptHindsight> you can find used Xerox (Tektronics) colorcube printers on ebay for a ~$100 and up
[09:52:41] <CaptHindsight> the company in the article just uses Epson printer guts and make flatbed printers with them
[09:52:43] <archivist> I never knew Xerox bought the Tektronix technology
[09:53:04] <CaptHindsight> yeah, maybe 10 years ago
[09:53:38] <CaptHindsight> heh 15 years
[09:57:09] <archivist> time flies when you get older
[10:00:13] <archivist> I was working tuesday at a friends house, we kept at it all day, eventually he said good morning, 12:15 am
[10:04:46] <CaptHindsight> http://3dprintingindustry.com/2013/12/19/3d-systems-acquires-portion-xerox-rd-division/ and still can't make a fast 3D printer
[10:05:34] <CaptHindsight> well I guess you don't have to if you hold the patents and have 1000% margins on the materials
[10:26:13] <Jymmmm> Mornin
[10:30:43] <CaptHindsight> the whole 3D printer industry is stuck behind patents, if it were machine tools it would be like having feed rates limited to 1 inch a minute and cutting tools would all be $2k each and wear out in days
[10:31:41] <SpeedEvil> Are tehre any innovative patents at all?
[10:31:59] <archivist> .000000001% maybe
[10:32:05] <SpeedEvil> That is - patents of processes that would take more than a few weeks in a shop for someone skilled in the art to come up with?
[10:32:55] <archivist> am I over estimating by a few hundred 0's
[10:33:19] <chris_99> the toilet snorkel was pretty innovative i thought
[10:35:30] <Jymmm> 3D metal printing?
[10:36:29] <CaptHindsight> chris_99: for toilet submarines?
[10:36:53] <chris_99> heh, http://totallyabsurd.com/toiletsnorkel.htm it's incase of fires
[10:38:42] <Jymmm> chris_99: Quicker Suicide instead of being burned alive?
[10:39:12] <CaptHindsight> http://totallyabsurd.com/beachboots.htm I like these
[10:39:21] <Jymmm> chris_99: Allow the sewer gases to help promot the fire?
[10:39:27] <chris_99> heh
[10:40:40] <CaptHindsight> chris_99: thanks for the link to the site
[10:40:43] <CaptHindsight> http://totallyabsurd.com/cheesefilteredcigarette.htm
[10:41:03] <chris_99> haha wth is that
[10:42:06] <Jymmm> http://totallyabsurd.com/boobtube.htm
[10:43:09] <Jymmm> lmao http://totallyabsurd.com/wonderbuttbra.htm
[10:44:42] <Jymmm> http://totallyabsurd.com/buttcleavagepants.htm
[10:44:59] <Jymmm> Is that the Chevy logo?
[10:48:11] <CaptHindsight> those are both close to SPANX
[10:52:48] <Jymmm> Snoring Duck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RhKN1Lmjw0
[11:54:09] <Jymmm> lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dtoty6IC0X0#t=210
[12:06:18] <enleth> I found a local machinist who's happy to make a replacement Quick Change lock nut inner ring for an equivalent of $80. Sure beats $250 for a new lock nut.
[12:08:59] <enleth> The price even includes checking the type of steel used for the original part.
[12:10:02] <archivist> machine porn http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schaublin-12-multi-purpose-high-precision-Milling-machine-/121790910647
[12:12:07] <enleth> If he gets it right, I'm off to make chips, everything else is fixed or non-critical.
[12:13:23] <enleth> Even the wobbly motor shaft, I just decided to screw it and replace the whole VariSpeed next year.
[12:14:04] <enleth> archivist: reminds me of Deckel
[12:14:08] <archivist> I was scanning this morning http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJC/BK/BK3151/pg0048.jpg the schlesinger specs I quoted the other day
[12:14:42] <archivist> enleth, it is 25miles from me and I cannot afford!
[12:15:21] <enleth> ouch
[12:16:55] <Jymmm> archivist: What if you don't eat for a year?
[12:17:04] <archivist> I dead
[12:17:14] <Jymmm> archivist: extra blankets and no heat for a year?
[12:17:25] <archivist> already have no heat
[12:17:39] <SpeedEvil> archivist: electric blankets are awesome
[12:17:44] <Jymmm> archivist: Um, fishnet stockings?
[12:17:56] <Jymmm> elecric mattress pads are even awesomeer!
[12:18:11] <Jymmm> heat rises from under you
[12:18:22] <archivist> actually double king duvets are effin warm
[12:18:35] <enleth> archivist: borrow some money from the bank? I did that to buy the bport.
[12:18:56] <Jymmm> archivist: Maybe sell something else and get it instead?
[12:19:03] <archivist> enleth, no regular job to ever think of loans
[12:19:10] <enleth> ah.
[12:20:10] <enleth> well, working in IT has some advantages, you get to buy expensive things. and then you don't have time to play with them.
[12:20:43] <Jymmm> Buy?
[12:21:02] <Jymmm> When I worked IT, we jsut got the latest toys
[12:21:14] <enleth> Jymmm: I mean it pays well.
[12:21:33] <archivist> not always
[12:21:35] <Jymmm> or when clearing out the closet of old crap (circa 6 months old) you got it for free
[12:22:02] <Jymmm> enleth: IT today is dead end job
[12:22:27] <Jymmm> enleth: it's more shrink and hand holding than actually doing anythign technical
[12:22:41] <enleth> Jymmm: depends on what you do
[12:22:42] <Jymmm> and completely unappreciated
[12:23:15] <archivist> and then they think, we are paying too much and you are out
[12:23:17] <Jymmm> doesn't matter... from desktop, corp, admin, telco, datacenter, etc
[12:23:51] <Jymmm> engineering isn't bad, unless you have a bunch of whiners
[12:23:54] <archivist> been there got the T shirt
[12:25:30] <enleth> Jymmm: well maybe it's the matter of words and definitions, I'd definitely call what I do "engineering", but I design computer systems, so I'd call that IT
[12:26:00] <Jymmm> enleth: you design, as in select and use various north/south chips, etc?
[12:26:32] <Jymmm> enleth: or you bbuild up boxes?
[12:27:06] <enleth> No, as in technical design of systems that do credit card transaction processing. Hardware selection, software engineering, network design.
[12:27:59] <Jymmm> to be, that's just SysAdmin stuff. par for the course.
[12:28:22] <Jymmm> to me*,
[12:28:25] <enleth> Nope, I'm not in operations.
[12:28:46] <Jymmm> You don't have to be. could be for engineering (non production) stuff
[12:29:05] <Jymmm> serperate lab(s) etc
[12:29:44] <enleth> Well, I sometimes do troubleshooting when shit hits the fan and millions of people around the country suddenly can't pay for their stuff.
[12:30:28] <enleth> But usually it's much more than just setting up individual hosta.
[12:30:34] <enleth> *hosts
[12:31:43] <enleth> I'm in charge of the so called big picture.
[12:32:33] <Jymmm> Heh, try in a Tier 1 data center when some backho operator cuts the fieber going to maewest or s.figerora
[12:33:08] <enleth> I had this happen last week.
[12:33:26] <enleth> Business as usual. Nice try, but no cake for you.
[12:33:31] <Jymmm> but YOU didn't have to fix it =)
[12:37:18] <Jymmm> Or when the police show up three times becasue one of your customers is a VoIP buisness and they rolled out new software without testing it and it dials 911 at random. Chief of Police was PISSED!!!!
[12:40:22] <enleth> Oh, sounds fun
[12:45:00] <archivist> zeeshan, you wanted large v blocks http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MASSIVE-Fabricated-Machine-Vee-Blocks-Biggest-On-Ebay-Engineering-v-MTE19-/311266926106
[12:46:13] <Tom_itx> jthornton, you should rename your 'hello' program 'foo'
[12:46:41] <archivist> bar would complain
[12:46:51] <jthornton> too many foo's out there you might get confused
[13:06:43] <MrSunshine> hmm some new grease and cleanup at the start of each workday at the machine maybe wouldnt be so bad :P
[13:07:27] <MrSunshine> the X axis ballnut sounds a bit better when i put some new greace in it ... saw to it to push in more than needed to get stuff out =)
[13:09:21] <tiwork> fixed my CNC mill yesterday... woo..
[13:09:27] <tiwork> (again)
[13:09:35] <tiwork> the encoder was freaking out
[13:09:56] <tiwork> found a bad capacitor on it, and the LED brightness had to be adjusted
[13:15:19] <tiwork> for anodizing, what do I want for a degreaser?
[13:17:47] <tiwork> looking at this http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-accessories.html
[13:30:02] <renesis> have confirmed that semester of GD&T for AS CNC programming degree is more comprehensive than the 3 weeks of GD&T in university ME program
[13:30:06] <renesis> that is all
[13:33:39] <MacGalempsy> GD&T?
[13:36:09] <renesis> geometric dimensioning and tolerancing
[13:36:39] <renesis> https://www.deanza.edu/cdi/images/GDT2.JPG
[13:36:46] <renesis> all the shit in the boxes, basically
[13:39:13] <_methods> yeah you actually make stuff out on the floor so you have to know how it works lol
[13:40:56] <MacGalempsy> looks like a good thing to learn
[13:45:22] <renesis> besides allowing more controls to suggest design intent (can be challenging) it can kill ambiguity in inspection (really easy to impliment)
[13:46:34] <_methods> or if done incorrectly cause tons of ambiguity
[13:46:36] <renesis> specifying datum features without controls tells inspection dude 'locate it like this, and then this, and then this' so two people cant get diff measurements just by how they decided to lay the part onto the inspection plate
[13:47:03] <renesis> _methods: sure but thats true of cartesian coordinate dimensioning too, shrug
[13:47:09] <_methods> yeah
[13:47:54] <_methods> it's hard to get teh old bastards on board with it
[13:48:11] <renesis> even when its not ambiguous, calculating dimension zones for stacked controls that its likely they wont be used as intended
[13:48:15] <renesis> so best to keep it simple
[13:48:32] <_methods> yeah that's where you get the most flack from the old guys
[13:48:33] <tiwork> heh
[13:48:45] <_methods> calculating
[13:48:49] <tiwork> /changing ways
[13:49:01] <renesis> FUCK THIS MATH JUST THROW THE PART AWAY AND DO IT AGAIN
[13:49:18] <_methods> maximum material what
[13:49:20] <_methods> lol
[13:49:33] <_methods> why can't they just say +/-.01
[13:49:47] <renesis> yeah when you tell them shit like, the tolerance zones turns into a slightly lima beaned oval, theyre like FUCK YOU MAN WHAT
[13:51:00] <renesis> and im not sure there are any conditions where you can MMC without a limit tolerance
[13:51:54] <_methods> they always get very angry when i start trying to explain profile
[13:52:14] <Tom_itx> maybe they don't understand
[13:52:37] <_methods> i think most people just don't like change
[13:52:46] <Tom_itx> true
[13:53:00] <Tom_itx> complacent
[13:53:14] <Tom_itx> change keeps you on your toes
[13:53:20] <_methods> tru dat
[13:54:29] <_methods> i mean 2 words
[13:54:32] <_methods> metric system
[13:54:49] <_methods> can barely get guys to tolerate that
[13:54:57] <_methods> now you throw GD&T at them
[13:55:04] <_methods> black magic
[13:55:34] <renesis> have you explained that GD&T implies metric unless specified otherwise?
[13:55:57] <_methods> renesis: i can only handle 1 test at a time lol
[13:55:57] <renesis> i kind of think that was a dick move on ASME's part
[13:57:14] <renesis> i think itll get better when its integrated into cad better, right now solidworks GD&T is basically a stamp you can abitrarily format
[13:57:39] <renesis> you can prob set MYNUTS as a datum feature
[13:57:54] <andypugh> It has occasionally amused me to give a 100mm+/-10 dimension
[13:58:21] <renesis> have confirmed, can set datum in feature control frame to MY NUTS when MYNUTS datum hasnt been defined on the drawing
[13:58:42] <_methods> you can change whatever you want
[13:58:48] <_methods> you can change the dimension too
[13:58:51] <_methods> it will break the link
[13:58:54] <_methods> but you can do it
[13:58:59] <renesis> but if it was an active feature that calculated tolerance zones and visualized them, i think people would be down with GD&T
[13:59:13] <_methods> it will come around
[13:59:15] <_methods> just takes time
[13:59:20] <_methods> old people have to die
[13:59:21] <renesis> i wonder if thats even been started as a solidworks feature and then abandoned because engineers suicided
[13:59:58] <_methods> once again i reference us's aversion to metric system adoption
[14:00:04] <_methods> it might take about 200 years
[14:00:12] <tiwork> oh you guys talking about metric?
[14:00:12] <_methods> but sooner or later we'll do it lol
[14:00:19] <_methods> no GD&T
[14:00:21] <_methods> adoption
[14:00:28] <renesis> tiwork: GD&T is metric, per the spec
[14:00:38] <tiwork> I'd rather die first.
[14:00:44] <_methods> hahah
[14:00:45] <_methods> see
[14:00:58] <tiwork> screw metic
[14:00:59] <tiwork> lol
[14:01:07] <renesis> i like inches
[14:01:17] <renesis> inches are base 1000, like most engineering things
[14:01:29] <tiwork> not that I mind the metric system, I just refuse to machine parts using metric
[14:01:32] <renesis> wtf is a decimeter?
[14:01:40] <tiwork> I've designed plenty of things with the metric system
[14:01:40] <renesis> who knows but some fucks gonna use it
[14:01:48] <andypugh> There is no place for the decimeter in SI
[14:01:59] <renesis> also using base 100 and base 1000 often is a great way to fuck shit over
[14:02:03] <andypugh> SI is mm, m, km
[14:02:23] <renesis> yesh cm is used a ton
[14:02:30] <pcw_home> Base 10 is plain stupid dump this metric crap
[14:02:32] <andypugh> Not by engineers.
[14:02:32] <renesis> *yet
[14:03:01] <tiwork> lol
[14:03:08] <andypugh> Anytime I see someone use cm I instantly know that they are not scientists or engineers.
[14:03:28] <renesis> pcw_home: my physics professor gets so angry when i use engineering notation instead of scientific
[14:03:38] <tiwork> anyone have a favorite aluminum degreaser? looking for a good way to clean aluminum prior to anodizing
[14:03:46] <renesis> but seriously wtf is 10^-5 Farads
[14:03:58] <_methods> ask pete
[14:04:06] <_methods> he was using some cleaner for his anodizing
[14:04:09] <tiwork> who isnt here at the moment XD
[14:04:10] <_methods> or CaptHindsight
[14:04:19] <tiwork> oh yeah CaptHindsight
[14:04:24] <_methods> i think he sold pete some stuff
[14:04:42] <tiwork> depending on when I order stuff, I might try anodizing things next week
[14:04:49] <renesis> petes Al anodizing came out so sexy
[14:04:55] <tiwork> yeah I know
[14:04:56] <andypugh> renesis: I don’t understand. What would be the “Imperial” form of 10^-5 Farads?
[14:05:00] <tiwork> I saw pictures!
[14:05:13] <renesis> andypugh: 10 uF
[14:05:24] <_methods> it's a trap don't answer his question
[14:05:25] <andypugh> That’s SI / metric
[14:05:28] <renesis> and thats not an imperial thing
[14:05:35] <_methods> hahahah
[14:05:39] <renesis> thats a practical engineering versus theoretical physicist thing
[14:05:48] <tiwork> andypugh: what is the imperial version of the minute?
[14:06:08] <tiwork> :P
[14:06:10] <renesis> 60*s yo
[14:06:12] <andypugh> I am actually wondering what the Imperial Farad would be
[14:06:50] <andypugh> Presumably there is a way to convert e to inch/lb units.
[14:06:53] <renesis> there are no days, only 8.64*10^4s
[14:07:14] <tiwork> there are lots of different units of measure for various different applications... sheesh.. like grains and ponies
[14:07:42] <renesis> is ponis what they use for naval cannon shells?
[14:07:45] <tiwork> no
[14:07:51] <tiwork> its a "shot"
[14:07:56] <renesis> damn because thats an awesome visual
[14:08:08] <_methods> poni power
[14:08:22] <renesis> hey you guys know about pono player?
[14:08:24] <renesis> piece of shit
[14:08:27] <tiwork> pony up... I suspect came from taking a shot of alcohol
[14:08:41] <renesis> niel young is officially an audiophoolish fuck
[14:08:44] <tiwork> and pony is a shot of alcohol
[14:09:29] <andypugh> “The farad is the standard unit of capacitance. Reduced to base SI units one farad is the equivalent of one second to the fourth power ampere squared per kilogram per meter squared (s4 A2/kg m2).” So you ought to be measuring your Imperial Capacitances in second4.Amp.lb/ft2
[14:10:52] <tiwork> lol
[14:11:00] <tiwork> that... is some weird units
[14:12:00] <tiwork> so CaptHindsight sold pete some anodizing stuffs?
[14:12:48] <CaptHindsight> we make inks for anodizing for inkjet, spray, sillscreen etc
[14:13:46] <tiwork> CaptHindsight: water based?
[14:15:59] <tiwork> CaptHindsight: cause at the moment, I'm looking at caswell for sourcing some (most? all?) of this stuff
[14:17:01] <CaptHindsight> tiwork: solvent
[14:17:53] <CaptHindsight> if you are still learning then order the casewell stuff
[14:18:40] <tiwork> heh
[14:20:17] <tiwork> what kind of color options do you have? is the dye that much better? I already have some dye from caswell, was going to (more or less) start with that, but for some of the other stuff I need different colors
[14:20:38] <CaptHindsight> CMYK to mix any color you wish
[14:24:34] <tiwork> CaptHindsight: what kind of solvent would you mix it with?
[14:25:10] <tiwork> alcohol of some sort? petrol of some sort?
[14:25:11] <CaptHindsight> it's sold as a liquid
[14:25:13] <OhmEye> When using PWM spindle control, is there a way to have the current speed displayed on the main window? I can stop and start the spindle and use the + and - buttons to change speed, but I have to just guess what the current value is.
[14:26:43] <andypugh> The command speed or the actual speed?
[14:26:54] <andypugh> (And what user interface are you using?)
[14:27:42] <_methods> put a tach on it
[14:28:53] <tiwork> CaptHindsight: alright, well, dyes aside, what is suggested for a degreaser and sealer?
[14:29:45] <OhmEye> andypugh: the command speed would be fine
[14:29:47] <tiwork> http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-accessories/anodizing-sealant-1-lb.html
[14:29:55] <tiwork> http://www.caswellplating.com/anodizing-products/anodizing-accessories/aluminum-deoxidizer-desmut-1-quart.html
[14:30:04] <OhmEye> I'm using the default livecd install of 2.7
[14:31:22] <andypugh> But which User Interface? I guess it is probably Axis, as Touchy already has a commanded speed indicator
[14:31:30] <OhmEye> yes, axis
[14:32:05] <OhmEye> there are 3 little buttons under the manual axis controls for spindle - Stop +
[14:32:21] <OhmEye> er, little circular arrow buttons too.
[14:32:37] <CaptHindsight> tiwork: just get the kit, our stuff is for industrial and lab use
[14:33:01] <OhmEye> it controls fine, it's just actually less convenient than using the manual knob on the control box if it doesn't display current value
[14:33:54] <OhmEye> I will look at Touchy, wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it
[14:34:09] <andypugh> OhmEye: One way, add this to your HAL file “loadusr halmeter -s pin motion.spindle-speed-out”
[14:34:38] <OhmEye> andypugh: thanks, I'll check that out :)
[14:34:54] <andypugh> For more advanced ways integrated into the UI: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/pyvcp-examples.html
[14:35:27] <tiwork> CaptHindsight: I ask cause one of my customers was asking about hard anodizing as well... I don't have the drawing yet, but its something I will probably end up at least trying.
[14:35:43] <andypugh> OhmEye: You can just open a terminal and type “halcmd loadusr halmeter -s pin motion.spindle-speed-out” if you want to see what the effect is without restarting Axis
[14:35:44] <tiwork> (I will be machining the part as well)
[14:35:59] <OhmEye> cool
[14:40:17] <andypugh> Incidentally, I am using almost that incantation to monitor my machine in the workshop from the comfort of my living room, on my Mac. ssh -Y andypugh@mill / halcmd loadusr halmeter -s pin motion.program-line pops up an indicator on the Mac screen where the LinuxCNC machine is in the G-code file.
[14:41:44] <_methods> nerd
[14:41:57] <andypugh> It looks like this: http://www.picpaste.com/Screen_Shot_2015-10-22_at_20.16.51-MpHFoxQc.png
[14:42:35] <andypugh> And it just finished. Time to load the next tool :-)
[14:50:57] <tiwork> this is really interesting http://www.finishing.com/273/60.shtml
[14:56:50] <tiwork> so I don't really need the nickel acetate sealer
[14:57:03] <MacGalempsy> anyone have a recommendation for a free file sharing site? I want to upload a bunch of the manuals
[14:58:10] <malcom2073_> dropbox isn't miserable
[14:58:22] <tiwork> (thats why I have my own server...)
[15:00:03] <MacGalempsy> ok dropbox it is
[15:01:40] <XXCoder> tiwork: local host or paid hosting?
[15:08:32] <Contract_Pilot> Lots to do, lots to do.
[15:16:59] <MacGalempsy> malcom2073_: any success with inkscape?
[15:17:13] <malcom2073_> Nah, I gave up and did it in a 2d sketch in solidworks
[15:17:30] <MacGalempsy> nice how did it turn out?
[15:25:28] <XXCoder> weird'
[15:25:41] <XXCoder> one site was working then something loaded and scroll stopped working
[15:25:50] <XXCoder> thankfully it didnt break keyboard scroll
[15:28:02] <malcom2073_> It turned out pretty good
[15:28:08] <malcom2073_> Don't have it on this PC, but I'll send you an image later
[15:29:26] <XXCoder> just checked latest freecad
[15:29:39] <XXCoder> trying to fillet 2 edges still makes part disappear
[15:47:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=45c_1445504138 - how to anneal an exhaust.
[15:51:42] <malcom2073_> HAah what a dummy, he wasted a beer pouring it on it
[15:52:14] <SpeedEvil> :)
[15:52:45] <SpeedEvil> I guess some component of the fuel system let go - it seemed 'happy' otherwise.
[15:54:09] <Jymmmm> dumbass
[16:00:07] <Praesmeodymium> the heat of the exhaust caused the nearby plastics to flash over? maybe it was the tire, maybe there was enough nearby heat he was trying to boil gas... either way epic fist pumping fai;
[16:00:24] <Praesmeodymium> dude t-shirt time
[16:03:09] <SpeedEvil> Praesmeodymium: naah - that's gasoline getting where it's not supposed to be
[16:03:16] <SpeedEvil> gas line or fuel pump let go
[16:03:30] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: Yeah... on the dumbass
[16:03:50] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: which is where it IS suppose to be.
[16:17:42] <Praesmeodymium> I got a registered letter form china today, I wonder if thats the missing motors
[16:23:19] <Praesmeodymium> did anyone get newgg motors via registerd mail?
[16:24:15] <tiwork> XXCoder: local... going off of my home internet connection.
[16:24:50] <malcom2073_> Praesmeodymium: Still waiting on mine, they were sent priority mail
[16:24:53] <malcom2073_> supposidly
[16:37:25] <Deejay> gn8
[16:43:30] <JT-Shop> it's official, I'm too short to hang any more siding without scaffolds
[16:53:41] <Praesmeodymium> sily mail carrier has them in the truck I wandered down to the post office and the package isnt there. so that means the opackage is actually eavy and the carrier is lazy
[16:54:18] <malcom2073_> Yeah mine does that a lot
[16:54:28] <malcom2073_> Just cause she doesn't wanna get out of her car
[16:56:24] <Praesmeodymium> my normal carrier is on vacation she usually parks in front of my house on delivery days, its like 3 parking spots from here usual routine
[17:01:42] <Jymmm> Crown Bolt / Everbilt (Home Depot) screws are PIECE OF SHIT!!!
[17:01:58] <Jymmm> I even pre-drilled and it STILL stripped the heads!
[17:03:32] <Jymmm> Now, these "DECKMATE" T-25 screws are AWESOME! 2.5" exterior deck screws drove in like a dream! (Though I did pre-drill too, but not one bitch from them in the least.
[17:05:40] <Jymmm> I just wish they came in a #14
[17:07:55] <Akex_> I have linux 2.5 on my laptop, why you remove the spindle slider on the next version ;(
[17:07:56] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/DeckMate-10-2-1-2-in-Star-Flat-Head-Wood-Deck-Screws-1-lb-Pack-115635/204806298
[17:08:09] <Jymmm> Even come with a T-25 bit
[17:14:05] <MacGalempsy> Jymmm: I agree with the awesomeness of those things. We installed a bunch of cabinets and were able to use everyone in the box without issue
[17:35:39] <andypugh> Akex_: I don’t think the spindle slider disappeared
[17:35:55] <andypugh> I still have it on mine.
[17:36:19] <andypugh> Maybe for some reason Axis doesn’t think you have a spindle?
[17:36:28] <Akex_> Andy https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/xN50kDyO/IMG_2071.JPG
[17:37:19] <andypugh> Machinkit? Perhaps _they_ removed the slider? Machinekit is not LinuxCNC any more
[17:37:40] <Akex_> Ha maybe is that !! I test BBB for now i just take a basic conf
[17:38:35] <andypugh> It looks like a spindle on/off config, there are no plus-minus buttons either. If you open a config with variable speed spindle then you should see the slider
[17:39:19] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, get some sheetrock stilts and strap them to your legs
[17:39:22] <Akex_> Ok andypugh i see that tomorow thanks
[17:39:47] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, that would be funny to watch me try and carry 16' long siding with stilts on
[17:39:52] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Use a swarm of drones
[17:40:03] <Tom_itx> it would be
[17:40:10] <JT-Shop> I'm out, can you email me some?
[17:41:25] <andypugh> Somone on here bought a dozen at $2 each, IIRC
[17:46:08] <andypugh> I have decided I do want a Lily Camera drone. But getting one probably just needs a butterfly net this ski-season. :-)
[17:47:09] <JT-Shop> well the ammo tins got me two more rows now to elevate to saw horses
[17:50:51] <JT-Shop> crap it's supposed to rain all weekend
[17:51:10] <JT-Shop> maybe I can figure out how to sort the entities
[17:52:49] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Abseil out of a window?
[17:53:19] <Sync> I like how it is abseil
[17:53:22] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: Me.
[17:53:33] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: They seem to have shipped me ten.
[17:53:47] <SpeedEvil> Thoguh not the 26 that I ordered 4 minutes later
[17:53:56] <andypugh> Are they big enough to lift JTs siding?
[17:54:08] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: Is he into dollshouses?
[17:54:17] <Sync> andypugh: you want one of those scam drones?!
[17:54:24] <andypugh> I am unaware of his other hobbies
[17:54:44] <SpeedEvil> (I would suspect the payload would be around 5 grams - hence it would only be useful for very small scales of siding.
[17:55:12] <andypugh> Sync: I want the Lily as-advertised. What the production model will be like I don’t know. But what makes you so sure that it is a scam?
[17:57:10] <Sync> because it cannot do what it claims
[17:57:36] <andypugh> Why not?
[17:58:46] <andypugh> (YOu would need to ski/whatever like you had a balloon on a string, as there is no collision avoidance)
[17:59:36] <Sync> people have gotten prototypes and it is neither launchable by throwing, the tracking does not work (unlikely for any system in the near future) and the battery lifetime is pathetic
[17:59:45] <Sync> same with zano, it is a plain scam
[18:00:40] <andypugh> Prototypes don’t normally work, otherwise they would be production units…
[18:00:51] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: unless it's kickstarter
[18:01:35] <andypugh> My Kickstarter experience has been largely positive. Though my oscilloscope watch is 2 years late.
[18:01:39] <Praesmeodymium> I think protypes come in flavors, proof of concept, mock up, and working
[18:01:45] <JT-Shop> maybe it is variable scope that is messing me up
[18:01:52] <Praesmeodymium> prolly a few subtleties too I am missing
[18:02:06] <Sync> well, I do expect prototypes to do remotely that what they are supposed to do
[18:02:12] <Sync> otherwise they are not prototypes
[18:02:20] <Sync> and being a drone is not a prototype
[18:02:23] <Sync> you can buy that off the shelf
[18:10:10] <andypugh> I could so with a board-o-holes for my ER collets, I have 4 different sizes of the things (32, 20, 16, 11)
[18:10:41] <Tom_itx> did you stagger them to conserve space?
[18:11:35] <andypugh> I haven’t made any sort of layout yet, but I wonder if nesting them with little ones between big ones helps.
[18:11:53] <Tom_itx> probably just be confusing
[18:12:22] <malcom2073_> I need to do a board of holes for my endmill holders, is it lame to do it out of wood?
[18:12:30] <JT-Shop> mine are in order by size makes it easier to find
[18:12:47] <JT-Shop> one box for each type of collet
[18:12:49] <Tom_itx> malcom2073_, make one from solid billet
[18:13:05] <Tom_itx> and anodize it
[18:13:07] <renesis> 22:37 < Praesmeodymium> I think protypes come in flavors, proof of concept, mock up, and working
[18:13:18] <renesis> thats how it works in consumer electronics manufacturing
[18:13:32] <malcom2073_> hah
[18:13:32] <Tom_itx> we had boards of holes all over the shop
[18:13:38] <malcom2073_> With the number of holders I have, that owuldn't be cheap
[18:13:53] <renesis> 22:36 < andypugh> Prototypes don’t normally work, otherwise they would be production units…
[18:14:02] <renesis> we call those production prototypes
[18:14:19] <renesis> in an ideal world, you should be able to sell production prototypes, but usually it takes a few tries
[18:14:43] <renesis> often initial production prototypes are what the engineers and techs get to take home
[18:17:01] <renesis> and i guess literally speaking, in terms of prototype meaning 'single and only unit', its the the builds at various stages of development and manufacturing that are prototypes, not the units themselves
[18:20:13] <zeeshan> archivist: those are pretty big :P
[18:27:59] <andypugh> malcom2073_: Wood seems appropriate to me, it won’t damage anything.
[18:28:44] <andypugh> My toolholder holder is wood. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZONFs0xPV82jWF0AoJezhtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[18:30:27] <malcom2073_> Nice, I like the tiered approach
[18:32:39] <andypugh> I think it is stronger that way, though I could be persuaded otherwise.
[18:33:41] <DaViruz> i produced a prototype at work this week that worked fine. then a collegue of mine proceeded to make 15 more, i guess production units, which didn't work at all
[18:34:24] <andypugh> I once made a circuit that worked well on solderless breadboard, but not when made as a PCB.
[18:34:50] <DaViruz> stray capacitance?
[18:34:56] <andypugh> I guess the track-to-track capacitance helped or something.
[18:35:16] <andypugh> It was an LCLC Wheatstong bridge
[18:35:23] <andypugh> (Wheatstone)
[18:35:46] <renesis> what were the caps?
[18:36:03] <andypugh> One was two aluminium tubes sliding coaxially.
[18:36:15] <andypugh> Not big capacitancees
[18:36:45] <renesis> oh, yeah shit was prob dozens of pF, solderless breadboard could totally mess with that
[18:36:48] <andypugh> It was a non-contacting very high speed displacement transducer.
[18:37:11] <renesis> was it in a box or something?
[18:37:33] <renesis> fly could land on that and it probably changes the capacitance, heh
[18:37:37] <andypugh> The breadboard wasn’t
[18:37:50] <renesis> i mean the tube sensor
[18:38:10] <andypugh> I was a bit stuck for another way to measure 100mm displacement at 50mph....
[18:38:22] <renesis> nice
[18:38:23] <andypugh> Oh, for zero budget.
[18:38:32] <renesis> optical interrupt!
[18:38:47] <andypugh> I needed analogue position
[18:39:07] <andypugh> I probably wouldn’t do it the same way again, this was 25 years ago.
[18:39:11] <renesis> hall sensor, bigass magnet
[18:39:20] <renesis> but yeah thats not gonna be cheap
[18:39:35] <renesis> def not cheap that long ago
[18:40:03] <andypugh> Time-of-flight laser didn’t have the bandwidth at the time.
[18:40:20] <andypugh> (and cost money)
[18:40:39] <Praesmeodymium> tof is still pretty long range aint it?
[18:41:16] <Praesmeodymium> I mean the response time for something cnc sized is epically fast and therefore spendy last I looked
[18:41:59] <Praesmeodymium> ahh 100mm displacement at 50mph
[18:42:23] <renesis> wirewound pot!
[18:43:55] <jdh> rack and pinion 10-turn
[18:44:13] <andypugh> The machine parts were pulling 250g.
[18:44:21] <andypugh> Not much survives that
[18:48:39] <andypugh> Gosh! They carried on using it after I left, there is even a paper from my Cam Plastometer: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/228095042_Dynamic_crushing_of_auxetic_open-cell_polyurethane_foam
[19:09:55] <andypugh> I have _finally_ dinished the machining of this pattern. Now for a weekend of filling, sanding and painting.
[19:11:15] <andypugh> Or perhaps I should start on the next pattern, before my HSM Pro trial expires in 6 days
[19:37:54] <ganzuul> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium%E2%80%93sulfur_battery
[20:27:26] <tiwake> PetefromTn_: poke
[20:32:05] <tiwake> PetefromTn_: I have a bunch of anodizing questions for you :P
[22:00:57] <PetefromTn_> Hey sorry man I was out in the shop..
[22:56:18] <tiwake> ugh, you are supposed to poke me
[23:13:09] * Tom_itx pokes tiwake with a sharp stick
[23:13:15] <Tom_itx> feel better now?
[23:17:31] <tiwake> enh
[23:17:44] <tiwake> sorta
[23:18:04] <tiwake> I'm getting ready to back a kickstarter for a space shooting game
[23:18:22] <tiwake> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/309114309/infinity-battlescape
[23:26:43] <Praesmeodymium> I been burned by kickstarter games
[23:27:45] <Praesmeodymium> that looks good and all but I ssuspect the ship fates are waaaaay of they dont have a prealpha demo availible till january according to cuurent estimates
[23:28:32] <Wolf_> 0.o
[23:28:39] <Praesmeodymium> thats a huge red flag for me at this point, if a game isnt mostly finished I am not interested
[23:29:38] <Wolf_> Hardinge 50V collet
[23:29:46] <Wolf_> pain in the ass to find?
[23:29:57] <tiwake> Praesmeodymium: I've been following its development for ~4 years now. They (1-2 guys) started working on their game engine about 10 years ago because no game engine could do what they wanted to do.
[23:32:51] <tiwake> the game engine is fantastic with how they implement ray tracing, atmospheric scattering, fluid mechanics, orbital mechanics, newtonian physics... I really don't like the plastic look of most modern game engines
[23:34:56] <Wolf_> Looked at that $500 Van Norman Ram Type mill today, 22LU with a 50V spindle :/
[23:37:35] <Wolf_> that damn 50V collet part kinda makes the deal look shitty
[23:40:31] <bobo__> Wolf " Hardinge 50V collet - pain in the ass to find " I think you forgot very expensive and limited as compared to Cat 40/50
[23:41:28] <Wolf_> http://i.imgur.com/tiB9E3O.jpg
[23:41:38] <Wolf_> I know where one is...
[23:43:22] <bobo__> Have seen several Van-Norman mills unsolded because of the collet problem
[23:45:50] <Wolf_> wonder if that could be redone with a cat40
[23:46:52] <Wolf_> lol http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006FQ3KDM/ref=biss_dp_t_asn ! fuck
[23:47:38] <bobo__> To my thinking ,a mill of that size that doesent have a least a #40 taper is not worth the time and money
[23:48:31] <Jymmmm> Wolf_: FREE shipping =)
[23:48:59] <bobo__> least a #40 taper means no R8 ore Morse tapers
[23:49:04] <ssi> Wolf_: have you looked into the stmbl enough to know how to go about initial testing?
[23:49:08] <Wolf_> its crusty and rusty http://imgur.com/a/kNpN7
[23:49:17] <Wolf_> ssi: nope lol
[23:49:40] <ssi> I have one built
[23:51:24] <Wolf_> oddly that mill even had all the parts to go with it, including a 3phase 2hp motor
[23:52:07] <bobo__> ssi send it to zeeshan for fault testing
[23:56:23] <bobo__> Wolf a Van-Norman spindle taper could be changed , but just the material and maching cost ,to me would mean a newer mill would be better
[23:56:43] <Wolf_> what sorta cost?
[23:59:08] <bobo__> mach the two spindles harden and grind and spindle material also mayby different bearings