#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-09-05

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[00:01:03] <Wolf_Mill> no idea here
[00:01:24] <Wolf_Mill> only seen people use harmoic drives for 4th axis
[00:02:06] <XXCoder> this isn cool http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/6/0/2/444602_v1.gif
[00:02:11] <XXCoder> *is
[00:03:20] <just_pink> XXCoder: laser scan
[00:03:32] <XXCoder> no
[00:03:35] <XXCoder> engraving
[00:07:14] <Wolf_Mill> I think my feed rates are too slow
[00:08:02] <XXCoder> tools getting dull due to all that rubbing?
[00:08:20] <Wolf_Mill> just slow
[00:10:52] <just_pink> what is your feed rate?
[00:13:04] <Wolf_Mill> 50mm/min +20% right now
[00:15:14] <malcom2073> Lol, [00:19:25] <zeeshan> im suprised your mill hasnt tipped over
[00:18:05] <Wolf_Mill> does sorta look like a solid plate
[00:18:56] <malcom2073> It looks like a rough cast plate yeah heh
[00:18:59] <Wolf_Mill> hmm I should be running at 80mm/min with 1mm doc, I went way conservitive when I did the cam lol
[00:19:00] <malcom2073> I assume it's a hollow cover?
[00:19:17] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, was a tray from a truck box
[00:19:27] <malcom2073> Lol nice
[00:19:42] <malcom2073> I like your chip cover on the stepper coupler
[00:19:55] <Wolf_Mill> lol works for now
[00:20:09] <malcom2073> Yep
[00:20:17] <malcom2073> I need to do bellows
[00:20:23] <Wolf_Mill> waiting for someone to give me a bunch of alum, some 2"x4" alum tube going to make covers from that
[00:20:27] <malcom2073> Nice
[00:21:18] <Wolf_Mill> this panel should look pretty good when its done, going to mount all teh cnc controls on it
[00:21:22] <malcom2073> These servo drives are annoying the hell out of me, I'm wondering if I just buy a mesa board, if it doesn't work out, if I can resell it, don't see too many of them on ebay heh
[00:21:30] <malcom2073> Ohhh nice
[00:21:38] <malcom2073> Is this the panel for your main electronics box?
[00:21:42] <Wolf_Mill> yup
[00:21:47] <malcom2073> cool
[00:21:55] <just_pink> Wolf_Mill: you need to be able to go to 600-1000 mm/min
[00:22:26] <Wolf_Mill> eh, 600 mm/min with a 1/8" endmill?
[00:23:51] <malcom2073> there's a calculator somewhere
[00:24:18] <Wolf_Mill> where ya think i got 80mm/min w/ 1.09mm doc from :D
[00:24:25] <malcom2073> heh
[00:24:42] <just_pink> Wolf_Mill: foe rapind and soft materials
[00:24:48] <just_pink> plastic
[00:25:03] <Wolf_Mill> I didnt think to run the calc when I was setting up the cam... dummy lol
[00:25:29] <just_pink> now my Z is 15000 mm/min
[00:25:35] <just_pink> fly...
[00:29:31] <XXCoder> that is crazy fast lol
[00:29:36] <XXCoder> just_pink: way less vibration?
[00:30:08] <just_pink> no.. just push the servo to the limit..
[00:30:19] <malcom2073> Heh, that's how fast my printer runs, nuts fast
[00:30:28] <malcom2073> Bet the ballscrews are whipping pretty good
[00:31:40] <just_pink> but I think I can get more if i will use the multiplier in the G320X
[00:32:33] <just_pink> but the haas mill do 12M/m and my Z do 15M/m so I think I'm happy.
[00:34:54] <just_pink> the high speed feed rate is useful just for rapid motion.. you can't do anything with 15M/min
[00:35:22] <malcom2073> heh
[00:35:30] <malcom2073> If you're doing a lot of work requiring a lot of travels, it speeds things up
[00:35:41] <malcom2073> Like panelized parts
[00:35:54] <malcom2073> Or a tool changer on the edge of your table :P
[00:36:46] <Wolf_Mill> heh, while this thing is cutting I think I'm going to go tweak the other cam files
[00:37:43] <malcom2073> Wolf_Mill: 26th of this month is that yard sale
[00:38:12] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, I think I'm gonna go
[00:38:37] <just_pink> my maching is in parts on the floor. I can't do anything with it :(
[00:38:48] <malcom2073> just_pink: What's it waiting on?
[00:40:01] <just_pink> I need to push someone to lift the parts and bolt them together.
[00:40:09] <malcom2073> Heh, heavy eh?
[00:40:22] <just_pink> yes :-)
[00:40:26] <malcom2073> My machine has a 400lb piece sitting on the floor atm that needs to be lifted 5ft in the air... but I think I may have a lead on how to do that ;)
[00:40:27] <Wolf_Mill> malcom2073: http://i.imgur.com/GnZe96O.jpg that happend last night
[00:40:41] <malcom2073> Wolf_Mill: I caught a bit of that conversation, the bearings spun in the cage?
[00:40:58] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, they caught the cage and pulled them under
[00:41:07] <malcom2073> That's impressive heh
[00:41:15] <malcom2073> Had you greased them?
[00:41:44] <Wolf_Mill> someone was excited when the machine went together and forgot to grease them
[00:42:00] <malcom2073> Ah heh, well I assume that someone has been appropriatly scolded?
[00:42:14] <Wolf_Mill> the one on the right is running in the machine right now lol
[00:42:25] <just_pink> Wolf_Mill: but it's normal. is made from 3 pieces
[00:42:25] <Wolf_Mill> cage is now a race lol
[00:42:29] <malcom2073> Lol
[00:42:37] <malcom2073> Hey, if it works, use it until a replacement comes
[00:42:42] <Wolf_Mill> yup
[00:43:13] <Wolf_Mill> seems the balls flash rusted and was just enough to grab the cage
[00:43:19] <malcom2073> Heh ouch
[00:45:09] <malcom2073> Well off to bed for me, I think I'm going to spend a chunk of tomorrow cleaning the garage, it's a mess right now, and I have a wood stove to fit somewhere
[00:45:14] <just_pink> the cage just make the spaces even, you need to see if you have good contact between the ballbearings to the 2 concave pieces
[00:46:18] <Wolf_Mill> it probably ate the one on the right when I was first setting everything up
[00:46:33] <Wolf_Mill> high torque FTW :)
[00:52:07] <just_pink> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFBdG7ZCwV0
[00:52:12] <just_pink> 15M/min
[00:56:37] <XXCoder> pretty fast
[00:59:28] <XXCoder> jeeez
[00:59:35] <XXCoder> tool change is INSANELY FAST
[01:07:45] <just_pink> the fly cutter open like a propellor
[01:10:14] <XXCoder> yeah
[01:10:48] <XXCoder> I wonder how find tool length for that lol
[01:11:08] <just_pink> if it's a fly cutter.. maybe some deboring tool..
[01:11:20] <XXCoder> or hoar
[01:11:43] <just_pink> XXCoder: if you crash it - it was to close..
[01:11:52] <XXCoder> lol
[01:12:10] <XXCoder> hoar is mispelled not sure what correct spelling is
[01:13:05] <just_pink> wot is a hoar?
[01:13:11] <just_pink> what*
[01:13:37] <XXCoder> not too sure
[01:14:15] <XXCoder> I remember this drill tool with lots balls to prep engine surface
[01:15:22] <just_pink> flex-hone?
[01:15:32] <just_pink> http://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/resources/images/cdn/cms/MMS_0312_honeoffers_C.jpg
[01:15:35] <XXCoder> hone!
[01:15:37] <XXCoder> thanks
[01:16:03] <XXCoder> dont think that tool was hone tool
[01:17:27] <just_pink> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TtQoT-ucvsc/SmYZ0DGsPmI/AAAAAAAAAIU/N_ccGSmjXkg/s400/flexhone_before_after.jpg
[01:17:34] <just_pink> very impresive
[01:17:58] <just_pink> my servos are junk
[01:18:04] <just_pink> so slow
[01:18:11] <just_pink> no acuracy
[01:18:23] <just_pink> just 3 axis for now
[01:18:29] <just_pink> just junk
[01:19:27] <just_pink> look why - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv6op2HHIuM
[01:20:19] <just_pink> you have to use very high feed rade for that
[01:22:27] <XXCoder> yeah and very high precision
[01:25:23] <Wolf_Mill> lol thats bad, redid 2 cam files before this thing even got one hole done...
[01:31:10] <just_pink> I can't fund the song!!
[01:31:26] <just_pink> find*
[01:56:10] <XXCoder> lol
[01:56:12] <XXCoder> https://smarttvhacking.wordpress.com/2015/08/24/hacking-the-sony-kdl-48r510c-smart-tv/
[01:56:15] <XXCoder> guy hacked tv
[01:56:21] <XXCoder> got telnet access
[02:01:22] <SEL> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI26XA8vG8M
[02:04:43] <XXCoder> man wipe your camera lens! lol
[02:06:35] <SEL> :-)
[02:07:23] <just_pink> there is a reason that EDM works in pulses and not continuous??
[02:12:51] <XXCoder> dunno
[02:13:06] <XXCoder> you finished making those parts?
[02:13:29] <just_pink> no
[02:13:59] <just_pink> I'm working backward..
[02:14:16] <just_pink> controller > hardware > fun
[02:15:55] <XXCoder> interesting concept. https://hackaday.io/project/7483-any-way-door
[02:16:01] <XXCoder> lol ok
[02:21:31] <trentster> fenn: a belated thanks for your answer btw
[02:23:48] <just_pink> I can't find a rubber that work as real skin on glass.
[02:24:13] <Deejay> moin
[02:24:39] <just_pink> Deejay: hi
[02:24:46] <just_pink> I can't find a rubber that work as real skin on glass.
[02:25:43] <Wolf_Mill> for some reason I'm not sure I want to ask...
[02:26:55] <just_pink> I want to try 15M/min on glass, but I need finger with 1/2" shank.
[02:27:01] <XXCoder> someone turned 2d laser into 3d cutter model
[02:27:13] <XXCoder> finger for what?
[02:28:01] <just_pink> human index finger
[02:28:40] <just_pink> or material that can work as skin..
[02:29:17] <Wolf_Mill> adult toy shop....
[02:31:01] <just_pink> I want to try to play some music.. like the kuka video..
[02:31:02] <XXCoder> still unsure why you need that
[02:31:05] <XXCoder> ahh
[02:32:42] <just_pink> I try with pink eraser and the silicon mate for baking - don't work
[02:33:32] <XXCoder> did it work with your actual finger?
[02:33:35] <renesis> omg throw pink erasers away
[02:33:40] <XXCoder> just to be sure concept works
[02:34:10] <XXCoder> (not with machine, just rib finger on glass or watever)
[02:34:22] <just_pink> with my finger it work.
[02:39:07] * renesis pulls it
[02:39:20] <XXCoder> lol
[02:39:36] <XXCoder> just_pink: maybe bring a small peice of glass and test stuff
[02:39:42] <XXCoder> try to find something that makes noise
[02:40:45] <just_pink> i need something with some grab
[02:40:59] <XXCoder> chalk and blackboard lol
[02:41:17] <XXCoder> have to code in slow descent as chalk wears down lol
[02:43:26] <just_pink> loadcell and pid loop to keep the same force.
[02:43:41] <XXCoder> hmm
[02:43:52] <XXCoder> how do I download latest linuxcnc iso?
[02:44:06] <XXCoder> I'm starting to setup pc
[02:44:08] <Wolf_Mill> just adapt THC code :P
[02:44:13] <just_pink> and limit swith that trigger if the chalk will end.
[02:44:47] <Wolf_Mill> XXCoder: link is in the getting started guide
[02:44:55] <XXCoder> ok
[02:45:36] <just_pink> XXCoder: I'm using mach3 -I didn't figure out how to set it up in linuxcnc
[02:45:50] <XXCoder> linuxcnc is pretty nice from what I see so far.
[02:45:59] <Wolf_Mill> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/getting-started/
[02:46:04] <XXCoder> I really want to buy the hand control though
[02:46:15] <Wolf_Mill> linuxcnc is easy to setup...
[02:46:25] <XXCoder> Wolf_Mill: yeah I did it before :)
[02:46:27] <XXCoder> on my laptop
[02:46:51] <XXCoder> it works but latency is HUGE lol it was just to test machine not for actual running
[02:47:10] <XXCoder> 93k latency lol and I didn't ensure machine was busy
[02:48:45] <XXCoder> Wolf_Mill: 2.7 is latest?
[02:48:48] <just_pink> I can't do proper homing to the coordinate system and the machine work extremely weird
[02:49:06] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, you can update to pre2.7 after you install
[02:49:18] <XXCoder> any beta issues?
[02:52:43] <ganzuul> Has anybody ever in the history of man put a lathe chuck on a horizontal milling machine?
[02:53:51] <Wolf_Mill> I havent had any issues with it
[02:54:10] <Wolf_Mill> :) http://i.imgur.com/XmoaH9j.jpg
[02:54:33] <XXCoder> looks nice
[02:55:03] <XXCoder> .. is that caliper?
[02:55:07] <XXCoder> or something different
[02:55:48] <Wolf_Mill> High end quill DRO http://i.imgur.com/Y3HQkf1.jpg
[02:55:56] <archivist> ganzuul, I use chucks as holding devices on the mill
[02:58:24] <XXCoder> Wolf_Mill: so it tells machine where Z is at?
[02:58:47] <archivist> ganzuul, and have also turned in the horizontal mill (trued up a spindle adapter I made for the mill
[02:59:46] <Wolf_Mill> XXCoder: no, for manual running of the quill, just zero the thing off the work, its pinned to the head and top of the quill, its a cut down harbor junk caliper
[03:00:05] <XXCoder> ahh
[03:27:37] <just_pink> there is a design of cycloid gear with zero backlash?
[03:28:10] <just_pink> I want cycloid gear becose it's very easy to make on the milling machine.
[03:29:20] <archivist> involute is easier, jut buy a cutter
[03:29:24] <archivist> just
[03:30:02] <archivist> cycloidal is only really used in clocks
[03:31:38] <archivist> there is no such thing as 0 backlash in gears without some form of spring
[03:32:58] <archivist> cycloidal should never be used in accurate work either
[03:34:00] <XXCoder> just_pink: your setup use ball screws or whatever screws?
[03:34:09] <XXCoder> if so, do you use anti-backlash couplers?
[03:34:30] <just_pink> I have ballscrews on the Z axis
[03:35:02] <just_pink> but the motor get very hot on idling
[03:35:38] <just_pink> the couplers are anti backlash,
[03:38:39] <XXCoder> some controller software have backlash compestors
[03:38:49] <XXCoder> linuxcnc does, but dunno about mach
[03:41:53] <just_pink> i mean if there is better desigen or way to make cycloid gear without or low backlash..
[03:44:19] <just_pink> finger replacement' is made from piece of wet cotton!!
[03:44:37] <XXCoder> lol so it worked eh
[03:45:29] <just_pink> not work
[03:46:02] <XXCoder> openscad any good?
[03:47:51] <just_pink> for?
[03:47:52] <XXCoder> interesting. http://openjscad.org/
[03:47:59] <XXCoder> modeling and such
[03:48:41] <just_pink> it's can be very useful as a filler in your hard dive
[03:49:19] <XXCoder> lol
[03:50:29] <ganzuul> archivist: Excellent... And you have all your fingers intact, still?
[03:52:16] <ganzuul> I think I'd like to make the spindle assembly into a Z axis on a lathe, somehow raising and lowering it.
[03:55:36] <archivist> I have also used a rotary to hold a lathe too to final machine an arbour in the 5 axis mill spindle :)
[03:55:46] <XXCoder> man I missed linux dd
[03:55:48] <XXCoder> so easy
[03:55:49] <SEL> have you tried the real one www.openscad.org ?
[03:56:08] <XXCoder> doesnt need to mess around with windows image writer program
[03:58:02] <archivist> ganzuul, easy to set a tool on centre with a mill
[03:58:09] <XXCoder> trying openscad
[03:58:25] <XXCoder> I still laugh on name of its "sister" program, openscam
[03:58:29] <XXCoder> open scam lol
[03:59:17] <SEL> oh they changed name from openscam to CAMotics
[03:59:49] <XXCoder> not a surpise
[03:59:52] <XXCoder> bad name
[04:00:15] <ganzuul> archivist: I've seen people use spindle risers on lathes. Suppose you need to be really good at finding centres when you use techniques like these.
[04:01:08] <SEL> well openscad is really powerful, it exports stl so no problem
[04:01:57] <archivist> ganzuul, you also need to think of where the forces are so your machine does not climb
[04:02:58] <ganzuul> Right...! That's what makes 4+ axes hard.
[04:04:16] <archivist> climb is ok if it is all rigid and no backlash
[04:05:32] <ganzuul> That's why I'm not opting for a CNC gantry mill made from aluminium...
[04:06:57] <archivist> also known as "dig in" on lathe work, usually the machine structure can deal with the dig in by having screws at an angle where the dig in cannot take up the backlash
[04:09:04] <ganzuul> I was thinking about the eventual CNC conversion, and how to choose toolpath so that backlash is avoided.
[04:09:36] <ganzuul> Seems like something that's easiest to learn by doing.
[04:10:39] <ganzuul> Ah, and to get those angles right, you get a compound.
[04:11:52] <archivist> think how the cross slide screw is at right angles to cutting force on a lathe
[04:13:41] <archivist> if your tool is low and you have rake there is a force to dig in, as long as this resultant angle is like a ladder on the wall, no slippage
[04:14:03] <archivist> else grab and damage
[04:14:33] <archivist> most will have experienced this when a noob parting off :)
[04:15:37] <archivist> the bar also lifts up and rolls over the tool which is the other force at the same time
[04:16:03] <ganzuul> Lots of let you lock down the saddle and cross slide with setscrews/cams, right? Then you could maybe turn...
[04:16:18] <ganzuul> well, not for parting off. right...
[04:17:52] <ganzuul> ~lots of lathes
[04:18:24] <archivist> most dont have cross and top slide locks
[04:19:20] <archivist> usually used in production work where you want each part the same
[04:20:22] <just_pink> how I can trim 60hrc chrome plated rods?
[04:20:50] <ganzuul> Angle grinder trims all.
[04:21:08] <just_pink> I need to cut it very precise.
[04:21:58] <Wolf_Mill> angle grinder, then face it with lathe + toolpost grinder?
[04:22:31] <just_pink> I can do the first gut with the angle grinder i domt have a lathe :(
[04:22:57] <just_pink> don't*
[04:23:12] <Wolf_Mill> I would be lost without a lathe
[04:23:23] <just_pink> hss can eat it?
[04:24:01] <just_pink> hss fly cutter / end mill..
[04:24:05] <ganzuul> O-1 goes up to 64HRC, my sources say.
[04:25:13] <just_pink> ganzuul: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Fly-Cutter-Set-w-Tool-Bits-1-2-/H5935
[04:25:30] <just_pink> it will cut chrome steel?
[04:26:16] <Wolf_Mill> wait, what fly cutting a rod?
[04:27:39] <XXCoder> isnt fly cut only for finish cut for flat surface?
[04:27:50] <XXCoder> unless you want end of rod very smooth it wont do
[04:27:53] <just_pink> after the angle grinder, to hold it in V block and trim it to size with fly cutter,
[04:28:04] <archivist> fly cutting is for many odd jobs
[04:29:06] <ganzuul> http://www.erasteel.com/sites/default/files/media/document/GB_Grade_ET1.pdf
[04:30:15] <XXCoder> guess im wrong
[04:30:25] <XXCoder> archivist: got examples? im curious now lol
[04:31:04] <Wolf_Mill> I guess having a lathe I never thought to fly cut the end of anything round
[04:31:41] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_08_13_cnc_helical/P1010261.JPG
[04:32:20] <ganzuul> just_pink: How much accuracy do you need?
[04:32:49] <archivist> and http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_cnc_Thread_mill_tool/p1010245.jpg
[04:32:51] <just_pink> ganzuul: to drive my Z axis,
[04:34:09] <just_pink> I want to make hypocyclic gear and press fit the rotating part.
[04:34:50] <archivist> use involute
[04:34:57] <archivist> use belts
[04:35:07] <archivist> never cycloidal
[04:36:20] <just_pink> archivist: but involute has backlash.
[04:36:32] <archivist> all gears have backlash
[04:37:05] <archivist> cycloidal have additional errors
[04:37:50] <just_pink> and harmonic drive?
[04:38:47] <archivist> harmonic is held in mesh by a device
[04:39:30] <archivist> the compression rollers, if they are loose or worn you will get some play in a harmonic too
[04:40:27] <just_pink> there is a way to make harmonic drive myself?
[04:40:41] <archivist> with a lathe yes
[04:40:53] <archivist> and a shaping machine
[04:41:21] <just_pink> and milling 3 axis?
[04:41:46] <archivist> the internal gear is difficult/impossible on a 3 axis mill
[04:43:01] <just_pink> what about edm?
[04:43:23] <just_pink> sink edm..
[04:43:59] <just_pink> to cut the electrod from brass, and sink it.
[04:44:02] <archivist> you have to make the die for the edm
[04:44:31] <archivist> you need a 4th axis for the teeth
[04:45:52] <just_pink> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lstQwLbAG0g
[04:46:41] <just_pink> here it's use a chain
[04:47:17] <archivist> that has backlash
[04:49:06] <archivist> easy to draw in cad, hard to make in hardware
[04:49:27] <archivist> can be impossible to assemble
[04:49:36] <just_pink> how much it cost?
[04:51:04] <ganzuul> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Old-harmonic-reducer/32234059917.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.11.Tnfl7H&ws_ab_test=201407_2,201444_6,201409_5
[04:52:34] <ganzuul> Newer ones seem to cost 3x more
[04:52:47] <ganzuul> ~new
[04:53:00] <just_pink> 250?
[04:53:06] <just_pink> not that bad..
[04:56:01] <ganzuul> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/VEXTA-Oriental-stepper-motor-with-a-harmonic-reducer-0-75A-1-100-drive-UDK5107N/32399880483.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.55.NnhKUs&ws_ab_test=201407_2,201444_6,201409_5
[04:56:38] <ganzuul> It's weird how electronics from China often smell like oriental spices...
[04:57:27] <just_pink> to avoid heating the servo motor it is better to work with high or low resolution in the encoder?
[04:57:58] <archivist> encoder not relevant to servo heating
[04:59:18] <just_pink> i can select from 48 to 2048
[04:59:38] <just_pink> now i'ts 100
[05:00:35] <ganzuul> Oh wait that same drive is available for a lot less money too
[05:00:44] <ganzuul> Better search for your own.
[05:00:57] <just_pink> but befor that..
[05:01:23] <just_pink> I want to try to use higher resolution
[05:03:36] <just_pink> 2048 lines ppq man the motor need to move 0.043 deg, now with the 100 it's move 0.9 deg
[05:08:41] <Wolf_Mill> motors get hot from current, servo still powered when its not moving right?
[05:10:04] <archivist> servo current depends on load force no static current
[05:10:28] <archivist> so they generally run cool
[05:10:34] <Wolf_Mill> ahh
[05:10:55] <Wolf_Mill> so not like steppers when they are stopped
[05:11:03] <Wolf_Mill> http://i.imgur.com/eotv49V.jpg
[05:31:04] <archivist> just_pink, why do you think you need a gearbox at all, usually the servo directly drives a ball screw
[05:34:16] <just_pink> the Z axis motor get hot
[05:34:46] <just_pink> Wolf_Mill: COOL
[05:35:17] <just_pink> my get about 60C about 140 f
[05:35:17] <XXCoder> do steppers get hot normally?
[05:35:42] <Wolf_Mill> yeah
[05:35:56] <just_pink> the x and y not even warm
[05:36:23] <XXCoder> I think Z need to be constantly held? dunno lol
[05:38:39] <just_pink> my leg is buzzing
[05:39:00] <just_pink> calibrate the servo and hold it with my leg..
[05:53:47] <archivist> 60c is not too high for a motor, it is probably because the z needs constant lift, balance the Z with a weight like Wolf_Mill has done
[05:55:02] <archivist> this is one of those fixing the cause not the symptom problems
[05:55:31] <Wolf_Mill> with ball screws I bet the motor is holding the head in place
[05:55:39] <archivist> exactly
[05:57:48] <archivist> you have understood the forces and fixed it, leaving your stepper little less to do, no step loss
[05:58:54] <Wolf_Mill> yup, next is to do a dual arm to the rear so my head doesnt pull up at a angle
[06:00:15] <archivist> and a new stiffer column :)
[06:00:15] <Wolf_Mill> about to cut the ball screw, tryign to figure out if I use the dremel or 5" m18 grinder
[06:00:28] * archivist ducks
[06:00:54] <Wolf_Mill> lol, I know this thing is floppy
[06:01:23] <archivist> I bolted some angle to mine
[06:02:00] <archivist> to effectively give me a larger box section
[06:02:13] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, that has crossed my mind
[06:02:38] <Wolf_Mill> slap some 0.5"/12.75mm plate to the back of it
[06:03:46] <Wolf_Mill> but I think a lot of the slop is from the head design on this junk
[06:04:11] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=cnc this shows the lathe bed used as the column, later pics show the added angle to the rear
[06:04:54] <archivist> you have a short gib length on the head too
[06:06:23] <Wolf_Mill> yup, thats part of the crap design
[06:06:41] <Wolf_Mill> so I'll just live with low DOC
[06:07:28] <archivist> I am contemplating a new column for mine, I have one made of cast iron from a drill
[06:11:57] <archivist> from one of these http://www.collection.archivist.info/pollard.jpg
[06:12:23] <Jymmm> wth is/was that?
[06:12:51] <archivist> just a pillar drill but SOLID
[06:13:03] <Jymmm> solid is right! lol
[06:13:33] <Jymmm> I think we could support a car on that thing!
[06:14:05] <archivist> the bare column must weigh 50lb ish
[06:15:15] <Jymmm> eeesh
[07:59:38] <Wolf_Mill> http://i.imgur.com/3JsSA8x.jpg messy....
[08:01:31] <archivist> add covers
[08:02:06] <Wolf_Mill> I'll be cleaning everything after this...
[08:02:14] * SpeedEvil idly wonders about hardfaced ways.
[08:02:21] <SpeedEvil> (almost certainly a silly idea)
[08:02:31] <SpeedEvil> s/almost//
[08:02:43] <archivist> hardfaced ways are not uncommon
[08:02:50] <SpeedEvil> oh.
[08:03:06] * SpeedEvil tries to work out if he's brilliant, or forgetfull.
[08:03:18] <archivist> forgetful :)
[08:03:54] * jthornton needs to change the water softener out, can't figure out where it is leaking when it regenerates
[08:04:23] * SpeedEvil passes jthornton some fluorescin
[08:04:51] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.com/itm/100g-Fluorescein-powder-fluorescent-dye-water-tracing-/130762418577
[08:04:54] <SpeedEvil> awesome stuff
[08:05:00] <archivist> probe arrived at last, "manufacturer refurbished" yes but in 2003 !
[08:05:11] <Wolf_Mill> nice :)
[08:05:33] <archivist> actually in very nice condition
[08:06:08] <Wolf_Mill> while I'm messing around on the lathe http://i.imgur.com/4KdVGMf.jpg mill is doing its thing
[08:06:17] <archivist> now I need to find the optical receiver for it
[08:06:18] <jthornton> neat stuff but I wouldn't know when or where to put it lol
[08:06:32] <jthornton> I can't catch it leaking just see the water on the floor
[08:06:50] <SpeedEvil> jthornton: you put it in the intake somehow
[08:06:58] <SpeedEvil> and it can be seen at _very_ low dilutions
[08:07:06] <Wolf_Mill> thermal cam works sometimes
[08:07:16] <SpeedEvil> also - spraying powder on the pipes can work well
[08:07:24] <SpeedEvil> as you can clearly see the tracks.
[08:07:37] <SpeedEvil> Don't forget your mobile phone or ... if you can't see round things
[08:09:34] <jthornton> I'll try dusting the pipes with some baby powder or wrap them with a paper towel
[08:11:34] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that works
[08:11:40] <SpeedEvil> if it's a little bit of water (towel)
[08:11:47] <SpeedEvil> too much and it can saturate teh whole thing
[08:12:00] <SpeedEvil> newspaper can work better - as it wicks less
[08:12:13] <SpeedEvil> cheap newspaper of course - running ink is good
[08:14:25] <jthornton> I think I have some newspaper somewhere
[08:34:20] <SpeedEvil> http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/poison-robot-submarine death by CNC
[09:19:19] * jthornton wrote a c++ program :)
[09:19:23] <jthornton> we are having fun now
[09:34:35] <Tom_itx> what's it do?
[09:36:11] <CaptHindsight> I think that only runs on Winders
[09:37:42] <jthornton> well so far it reads a dxf file and returns the entities section to an array
[09:38:58] <CaptHindsight> or maybe I was thinking of C#
[09:44:52] <jthornton> bbl
[10:11:54] <ganzuul> C# is open source, called mono. MS' .Net isn't open source.
[10:13:00] <ganzuul> also look!
[10:13:01] <ganzuul> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBpYSvi3H8Q
[10:13:16] <ganzuul> Turned a transformer into a magnetic chuck.
[10:16:09] <ganzuul> Finally got a use for all those microwave oven transformers I've scavenged... :)
[10:18:09] <ganzuul> In case anyone doesn't remember their electromagnetism, looks like he removed the part of the transformer which is welded on. This means the field lines have to go through open air to complete the magnetic circuit, and you can close the circuit with just some bit of ferromagnetic material.
[10:28:31] <furrywolf> that would be my guess on how to do it too, but I question its efficiency. not going to deal with a video just to find out.
[10:30:50] <ganzuul> Energy efficiency or workholding force?
[10:31:14] <furrywolf> both
[10:31:21] <furrywolf> using lots of power to not do much. :)
[10:31:38] <ganzuul> Using lots of power to stop things from happening....
[10:31:56] <ganzuul> It's actually not all that much power.
[10:32:33] <ganzuul> IIRC joule heating wasn't a problem when I experimented with this stuff in physics class a long time ago.
[10:33:24] <furrywolf> yes, on a properly engineered electromagnet... I'm not sure how close chopping the top off a random transformer comes to that. :P
[10:33:29] <ganzuul> And you could absolutely not break the circuit with hand power alone.
[10:34:11] <ganzuul> furrywolf: It is identical.
[10:35:08] <ganzuul> I've studied the circuit in three different schools.
[10:36:14] <ganzuul> A motor winding is just the same.
[10:36:33] <ganzuul> And there electromotive force is the goal.
[10:43:10] <ganzuul> http://2.imimg.com/data2/LM/PD/MY-3246902/ei-lamination-core-250x250.jpg
[10:45:03] <ganzuul> This is a typical cheap transformers core. The E and I sections are stacked instead of alternated. Means you can insert a pre-wound field winding easily, instead of having to do a lot of complicated through-hole stuff.
[10:45:41] <ganzuul> The E and I sections are then simply welded together.
[10:48:36] <Tom_itx> E I E I O
[11:07:41] <Jymmm> Farmer Tom_itx
[11:08:40] <ganzuul> Right, the song...
[11:10:47] * Loetmichel2 just found a pic when i was milling PMMA: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13888&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[11:11:07] <Loetmichel2> ... thats how the mill looks after cleaning: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13891&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[11:11:08] <Loetmichel2> :-)
[11:11:19] <Loetmichel2> *WHAT A MESS*
[11:11:55] <Jymmm> Loetmichel2: They have these new inventions now, called a shopvac...
[11:12:11] <Loetmichel2> did use that... afterwards :-)
[11:12:18] <t12> lol
[11:12:31] <t12> static cling? oil?
[11:12:43] <Loetmichel2> acrylics. static cling
[11:12:45] <Jymmm> Loetmichel2: I hope that's not how you use condoms too... afterwards.
[11:13:36] <Loetmichel2> as i am married: i dont use them
[11:13:40] <Loetmichel2> :-)
[11:13:57] <Jymmm> no comment
[11:47:04] <archivist> cheeeeep cnc http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brembana-cnc-machine-for-parts-/231674238566
[11:48:34] <Tom_itx> even after moving the iron is worth more than that
[12:04:30] <ganzuul> Could you use a shopvac on oily swarf if you put in a kitchen fan filth filter in place of the dust filter?
[12:05:05] <ganzuul> Or would hot swarf melt stuff...?
[12:06:04] <PetefromTn_> personally I use my wet or dry Hoover vac all the time to clean up chips from my VMC and have used the same one for over a decade now if that help you.
[12:06:43] <roycroft> if it's really oily toss some cat litter on it first
[12:06:59] <ganzuul> So the filter doesn't get clogged with oily dust?
[12:07:09] <PetefromTn_> I don't use the filter LOL
[12:07:17] <Wolf_Mill> I have been using one for 5 years working on this house, has a 30gal dust seperator inline, sucked up the whole house worth of blown in insulation with it
[12:07:21] <ganzuul> ah
[12:07:23] <PetefromTn_> I use the machine in wet mode
[12:07:39] <ganzuul> oic
[12:07:43] <roycroft> don't use the cat litter if you use it that way
[12:07:55] <ganzuul> lol
[12:08:07] <Wolf_Mill> I run a seperator + bag + hepa filter
[12:08:10] <PetefromTn_> to be honest the biggest problem is the damn hoses get clogged easily
[12:08:13] <ganzuul> oh right, not because of feline objections
[12:08:23] <ganzuul> might have a very mad cat on your hands
[12:08:24] <roycroft> a separator would be good
[12:08:34] <roycroft> i use one in my woodshop in front of my dust collector
[12:08:40] <PetefromTn_> you can setup a seperate cannister if you are worried about it
[12:09:21] <roycroft> you can get small ones that sit on a 5 gallon bucket
[12:09:23] <Wolf_Mill> also handy trick is to get one of them xmas light remotes right after the season and use it as a remote for the vac :)
[12:09:26] <roycroft> or big ones that sit on a 55 gallon drum
[12:09:34] <Wolf_Mill> mine is on the other side of the house right now
[12:09:50] <ganzuul> I'd like to use a shopvac with a benchtop lathe, indoors, keeping the room clean.
[12:10:05] <Jymmm> Or use a 33gal trashcan
[12:10:10] <Wolf_Mill> lathe... good luck
[12:10:25] <ganzuul> I can get a rather big shopvac for cheap...
[12:10:29] <roycroft> you can't easily machine and keep the room clean
[12:10:45] <Wolf_Mill> lathe chips never go where you want them to
[12:10:46] <roycroft> the goal should generally be to keep the room easy to clean up
[12:10:49] <roycroft> not to keep it clean
[12:10:54] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubbermaid-Roughneck-32-Gal-Black-Round-Trash-Can-with-Lid-1778013/100656030
[12:10:55] <ganzuul> hmm
[12:11:06] <MacGalempsy_> hey has anyone used the at_pid module?
[12:11:30] * roycroft needs to get out to the shop soon, speaking of shops
[12:11:45] <roycroft> it's a long weekend, so i decided to be lazy and sleep in 'til 8 today
[12:11:46] <MacGalempsy_> I am trying to figure out how to initiate the process, but cannot figure it out
[12:11:48] <Wolf_Mill> I run active vac on the mill, on the lathe I vacuume after, for about 10-20mins
[12:12:00] <Jymmm> These are great, as they are heady duty and have flat lids - easy to modify for 4" ducting http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubbermaid-Commercial-Products-Brute-32-Gal-Gray-Round-Vented-Trash-Can-with-Lid-FG863292GRAY/100342585
[12:12:34] <ganzuul> I was thinking, run vac at the same time. With a small lathe and good chipbreaking, they might end up where they're supposed to go.
[12:13:00] <roycroft> wishful thinking
[12:13:16] <Jymmm> ganzuul: I hope you have a supply of shopvacs
[12:13:21] <roycroft> unless you define "where they're supposed to go" as "anywhere but still attached to the part"
[12:13:31] <roycroft> in which case they will probably go where they're supposed to go
[12:13:36] <ganzuul> Jymmm: 70e a pop!
[12:13:52] <Jymmm> ganzuul: you nuts?
[12:14:09] <ganzuul> wah...?
[12:14:30] <Jymmm> ganzuul: get a lil dust collector, you'll be happy with the results
[12:14:47] <Jymmm> doubles as a leaf blower too =)
[12:15:51] <ganzuul> I'm not sure I understand the setup you're describing.
[12:16:33] <Jymmm> Which? the leaf blower, dust collector, or shopvac?
[12:16:36] <Wolf_Mill> my dust head is mounted to one of these http://i.imgur.com/4KdVGMf.jpg
[12:16:56] <ganzuul> Dust collector. I don't plan on making dust.
[12:17:14] <Jymmm> ganzuul: Ah, highter CFM and SP is all
[12:17:15] <Wolf_Mill> seperator head
[12:18:04] <Wolf_Mill> all the chips, swarf, screws, rocks, dust, nuts all end up in the drum
[12:18:53] <ganzuul> SP?
[12:18:54] <Wolf_Mill> with the lathe all the curls and ribbons end up jammed in the hose, usually about 5 feet in
[12:20:02] <ganzuul> Frankly as long as oily ribbons don't paint the walls and ceiling with cutting oil, I'm happy.
[12:20:27] <Wolf_Mill> the chuck will do that for you
[12:21:08] <Wolf_Mill> btw, dont even use a tool post grinder then :P
[12:21:37] <roycroft> if you're getting really long ribbons you need to regrind your tooling
[12:21:50] <ganzuul> I definitely want a toolpost grinder!
[12:22:01] <Jymmm> ganzuul: SP = Static Pressure
[12:22:02] <ganzuul> Hence the need for a shopvac.
[12:22:04] <Wolf_Mill> http://i.imgur.com/3JsSA8x.jpg
[12:22:05] <ganzuul> oic
[12:22:13] <Wolf_Mill> cant use a vac on it
[12:22:18] <Wolf_Mill> unless you want a fire
[12:22:35] <Wolf_Mill> I set the cardboard off twice
[12:22:40] <ganzuul> Wolf_Mill: That's a Sieg lathe right?
[12:22:54] <Wolf_Mill> yeah, 7x10
[12:22:55] <Wolf_Mill> C2
[12:23:04] <roycroft> you don't cover the ways when you use the tpg?
[12:23:07] <Wolf_Mill> very early one at that
[12:23:12] <ganzuul> I want this one: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathes/Model-C3-Mini-Lathe/Model-Super-C3-Mini-Lathe
[12:23:18] <ganzuul> 7x16!
[12:24:03] <ganzuul> Gonna buy it as soon as I know what I'll be doing two weeks from now.
[12:24:12] <Wolf_Mill> naa no covers, figured the dust will help me lapp the waysin
[12:25:07] <ganzuul> Does making thicker chips help in breaking them?
[12:25:12] <Wolf_Mill> mine is a beat to death used machine, paid $300 for it
[12:25:20] <ganzuul> woah
[12:25:33] <ganzuul> I'll pay 1200e to get started. Everything new though.
[12:25:55] <archivist> secondhand means bigger and better often
[12:25:56] <Wolf_Mill> that was with the TPG, 3 and 4 jaws, all the tooling, quick change toolpost
[12:26:10] <ganzuul> archivist: I don't have room for bigger. :C
[12:26:36] <ganzuul> Wolf_Mill: You lucky s....
[12:27:09] <archivist> keep looking locally, stuff does appear
[12:27:37] <archivist> a local club may know of one at the right price
[12:27:45] <ganzuul> Found a 1 ton Bridgeport for 900e...
[12:28:00] <Wolf_Mill> I got it by accident, CL ad for a x1 mill w/ all the tooling, vice, ect
[12:28:16] <ganzuul> a club...
[12:28:18] <ganzuul> hum
[12:28:38] <archivist> the key to good prices is watching out
[12:31:02] <Wolf_Mill> I want to add a DRO to the lathe...
[12:31:30] <Wolf_Mill> overshot the grind by 0.08mm
[12:32:05] <roycroft> ganzul: if your tool geometry is correct and you still get long curly swarf, you might grind a chip breaker groove into it
[12:32:13] <roycroft> long curly swarf is dangerous
[12:32:17] <roycroft> i would try to avoid it
[12:32:29] <Wolf_Mill> I get those... using inserts
[12:32:57] <archivist> different metals need different chip breaking
[12:33:03] <roycroft> i'm assuming we're talking about steel here
[12:33:21] <Wolf_Mill> naa, alum on mine...
[12:33:38] <ganzuul> I figured if the chips get very hot and then cool rapidly, the hardening will make them brittle.
[12:33:45] <roycroft> archivist is absolutely correct
[12:34:05] <Wolf_Mill> on steel the c2 flexes enough to break everything
[12:37:32] <ganzuul> What sort of clubs should I look for>
[12:37:35] <ganzuul> ?
[12:39:09] <roycroft> you might find this interesting:
[12:39:14] <roycroft> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4gDDq_55Is
[12:39:21] <archivist> model engineering or a college evening course
[12:39:40] <archivist> or a hackerspace
[12:40:13] <roycroft> hackerspaces are ok for access to equipment you don't have
[12:40:23] <ganzuul> My local hackerspace isn't really into metal
[12:40:39] <roycroft> my experience is that they're not good places to learn how to do things properly
[12:40:49] <roycroft> they can be ok places for learning ghetto fabrication techniques
[12:41:04] <Jymmm> but they are good place to learn to do things badly =)
[12:41:21] <Wolf_Mill> I can say if you get a 7x whatever, get a er collet chucker for it
[12:41:42] <ganzuul> Wolf_Mill: yup!
[12:42:07] <ganzuul> Wolf_Mill: ER 32 has the same max ID as the spindle bore
[12:42:44] <ganzuul> I think I can get by with 3mm, 8mm and 20mm collets to begin with.
[12:42:56] <ganzuul> 8mm for holding end mills.
[12:43:03] <Wolf_Mill> I got a set of 25 collets for $110
[12:43:03] <ganzuul> 3mm for dremel bits
[12:43:53] <ganzuul> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets/ER32-Collets
[12:47:41] <Loetmichel> hmm... my wife gave me a t-shirt with a print on it... "dont assume malice if stupidity is sufficient as an explanation." ... what should i make of that?
[12:49:25] <ganzuul> It's a free pass to do stupid things!
[12:49:29] <roycroft> it's a wise saying, loetmichel
[12:49:54] <Loetmichel> roycroft: i know. i use it often
[12:50:07] <Loetmichel> maybe she hear it one time to many ;-)
[12:50:11] <Loetmichel> heard
[12:50:53] <roycroft> it's a correlary of the #1 rule of systems administration, which is:
[12:50:59] <roycroft> never overestimate the intelligence of the end user
[12:51:22] <Loetmichel> ... especially when your users are soldiers...
[12:51:37] <Loetmichel> i know. THATS why i use that saying so often ;)
[12:55:43] <Loetmichel> i also got one from her with "i am risen and have put on clothes. WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?"
[12:56:18] <Loetmichel> and one with [front] "the early bird gets ...." [back] "it big time if it dosent SHUT UP!"
[13:16:18] <archivist> how solid a lathe can be http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Raglan-Lathe-/231677712324
[13:27:39] <pcw_home> That looks like a stout little lathe
[13:28:18] <Wolf_Mill> made for people who hate tailstocks
[13:39:54] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvrpFaP16Xo
[13:39:56] <zeeshan> sweet feature
[13:40:14] <zeeshan> not sure why you cant just loosen the collet?
[13:40:16] <zeeshan> while it's stuck?
[13:40:39] <zeeshan> or release the tool?
[13:53:34] <Sync_> zeeshan: takes time
[13:53:50] <zeeshan> well not the way he made it sound
[13:53:56] <zeeshan> he made it sound like you gotta break the tap
[13:53:57] <zeeshan> to get itout
[13:53:58] <zeeshan> lol
[13:55:58] <Sync_> hmm
[13:56:23] <Sync_> I should make crimp tooling
[13:56:34] <Sync_> it seems you can charge whatever you want for it
[14:10:23] <ganzuul> Maybe he doesn't like getting his hands dirty.
[14:11:20] <SolarNRG> what do you guys think about the concept of if there are no jobs you should create a job?
[14:12:28] <SpeedEvil> If there are no jobs, you should kill an unemployed person.
[14:12:38] <CaptHindsight> how do you get melted aluminum off a carbide endmill?
[14:13:13] <SolarNRG> speedevil, are you saying our purpose in life is to all be slaves to the monetary system?
[14:13:21] <Wolf_Mill> I use a 90deg pick
[14:13:23] <SolarNRG> and if we have no purpose we should self terminate?
[14:13:47] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: To be serious - I was trying to say that it's not really that simple.
[14:14:16] <SolarNRG> I think the internet is my best last hope of redemption of gaining meaningful employment, the question is what can I do for you?
[14:14:21] <SpeedEvil> There are only a finite number of jobs available at any given level of renumeration.
[14:14:29] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: what you propose requires empathy and valuing the lives of others
[14:14:40] <SolarNRG> I mean what do you want? if I can do it for you will you pay for my labour?
[14:14:55] <SpeedEvil> It is possible there is a gap, but not certain for anyone.
[14:15:11] <SpeedEvil> It is especially promlematic if 4 million people all need to create a job
[14:16:04] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: how do remove people from positions of power that don't feel empathy?
[14:16:09] <SpeedEvil> This is going to come into sharp relief in ~20y when warehouse and driving jobs have died.
[14:16:19] <SolarNRG> yeah totally, I've been on disability most of my adult life, my disability has run dry, my wife's last pay check bounced neither of us can get a job face to face but through the internet I've been suggested ideas like I should set up a programming firm, maybe subcontract others to do coding work
[14:16:20] <SpeedEvil> and farming and ...
[14:16:44] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I actually asked myself this question, are politicians extra terrestrials because they don't seem very human to me?
[14:17:23] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, the soil here in Greece is crap we spend more on soil to make an onion grow than we'd be able to get at market even if we had no electricity, water and starved my kids
[14:17:36] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: why are sociopaths put into positions of authority?
[14:17:48] <SolarNRG> I feel I have skills to offer you guys, the question is do you want me to do any 3d modelling or coding for you?
[14:17:59] <SolarNRG> or welding
[14:18:14] <SolarNRG> the impression I get is everybody worldwide is broke as hell
[14:18:15] <CaptHindsight> welding is though over the net
[14:18:31] <CaptHindsight> tough
[14:19:03] <SpeedEvil> regrettably, I'm currently at about my 8000th word into my own disability form.
[14:19:15] <SpeedEvil> I figure about 12000 should have it done.
[14:19:43] <SolarNRG> The main problem I had was you can either be disabled or you can be a father not both
[14:19:51] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: it's bleak, but not yet bad enough for people to fight back
[14:20:00] <SpeedEvil> Then about another 2000 for the other form, then about another 4000 for the other one.
[14:20:14] <SolarNRG> We're in a depression aren't we? I checked all the job sites they are all bone dry
[14:20:17] <SpeedEvil> Fighting back doesn't make it magically better.
[14:20:29] <SpeedEvil> Unless you kill lots of people leading to a labour shortage.
[14:20:37] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, yep as they found out the hard way in Ukraine, they did their revolution and they made their problems a million times worse
[14:20:49] <SolarNRG> wanna help me make an atom bomb?
[14:20:52] <SolarNRG> :)
[14:20:58] <gonzo_nb> worls
[14:21:05] <SolarNRG> it would certainly solve the queues and the traffic jams
[14:21:13] <gonzo_nb> world wars help the ecom
[14:21:16] <gonzo_nb> nomy
[14:21:22] <SolarNRG> oh but I don't have money to buy the uranium with
[14:21:34] <SolarNRG> and even when I did have the money I didn't want to do that because it would be a horrible thing to do
[14:22:43] <SpeedEvil> A full war footing also lets you do very unpopular things like shutting down entire industries, and reassigning the labour, which can be very productive in some cases.
[14:22:48] <SolarNRG> both world wars certainly helped the US economy, but in the long run the US economy got used to a lavish lifestyle of lazy ass working while Europe and Asia had been flattened back to the stone age, now things are much harded
[14:22:53] <PetefromTn_> Wow man every day I login in here and read this stuff gets more and more weird and outlandish crazy talk....
[14:23:09] <SolarNRG> hi PetefromTn_ how's u?
[14:23:11] <SpeedEvil> 'If you need a table, you have a choice of three'
[14:23:41] <PetefromTn_> okay I guess
[14:24:01] <CaptHindsight> could Frankenstien kill Superman in a cage match?
[14:24:16] <SolarNRG> nah superman would win
[14:24:17] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: what on earth are you going on about now? :)
[14:24:19] <PetefromTn_> see what I mean
[14:24:35] <SolarNRG> but I think darkseid would crush superman were it not for the justice league
[14:25:11] <PetefromTn_> I am starting to think all the intelligent techie guys that drew me into this place have all been abducted by aliens or something and replaced with......something else
[14:25:15] <CaptHindsight> which superhero or monster would make the best pizza delivery person?
[14:25:30] <PetefromTn_> flash of course
[14:25:35] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I don't think that's the case, I just think a lot of us are a bit rattled by the global financial meltdown
[14:25:51] <PetefromTn_> what global financial meltdown?
[14:25:53] * SpeedEvil ponders plywood powertools.
[14:26:29] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: powertools made of plywood or made to work on plywood?
[14:26:41] <SpeedEvil> the former.
[14:26:56] <SpeedEvil> I have a 550mm sawblade I need to find a home for
[14:26:59] <PetefromTn_> I made a tablesaw out of plywood with an upside down skilsaw once
[14:27:09] <PetefromTn_> actually worked pretty well
[14:27:40] <CaptHindsight> which superhero or monster would make the best machinist?
[14:27:46] <PetefromTn_> me of course
[14:27:51] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[14:28:26] <PetefromTn_> I'll let you decide which one I am hehe
[14:28:29] <SolarNRG> iron man
[14:29:20] <SolarNRG> I think it'd be sweet to live in a high rise tower with a high tech flying suit so you could fly anywhere do anything
[14:29:40] <PetefromTn_> I would be happy with just the flying suit part I think
[14:29:51] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I'd probably be happy enough with a minicopter tbh
[14:30:00] <SolarNRG> and a chute
[14:30:03] <SolarNRG> just in case
[14:30:04] <PetefromTn_> naah copters scare me
[14:30:17] <PetefromTn_> way too many moving parts
[14:30:34] <SolarNRG> oh poor widdle PetefromTn_ scared of the big mean rotors spinning round above his head, oh boo boo
[14:30:42] <SolarNRG> ~:)
[14:30:52] <PetefromTn_> yup exactly
[14:31:07] <fenn> zeeshan: if you never figured out how to get the mandrel out, try blowing compressed air in with a rubber tipped nozzle
[14:31:26] <PetefromTn_> when I was in the coast guard and working on the cutters we referred to them as whistling shitcans....or the screaming chicken
[14:31:31] <SolarNRG> But you're cool with boarding an aluminium bird with hundreds big spinning inconel blades built by the lowest bidder, right?
[14:31:45] <SolarNRG> u used to work in coastguard?
[14:31:49] <PetefromTn_> naah don't really like that much either
[14:32:08] <PetefromTn_> Yeah I was a Coastie for several years
[14:32:08] <Sync_> the solution to that is to get a rotary powered heli
[14:32:22] <SolarNRG> Actually I think a big walking forklift like in aliens 2 would be cool, I could rent my services to container yards
[14:32:41] <SolarNRG> were you on the patrol boats?
[14:33:14] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: would you trade you arms for those or for wings so you can fly?
[14:33:22] <PetefromTn_> I was on several different vessels and then flew in C-130 aircraft for the remaining half
[14:33:38] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I might trade my legs but without my arms? shit man how would I drink my beer how would I jack off, no fucking way
[14:34:18] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, did you catch lots of cubans trying to come to florida?
[14:34:36] <PetefromTn_> unfortunately yeah
[14:34:53] <PetefromTn_> but mostly we worked during the Haitian refugee floatilla
[14:35:23] <SolarNRG> I bet they were like 20 men women and kids in a little dingy shivvering and wet desperately trying to flee castro's red state and your job was to send them back and they were giving it all this "ohh but our poor starving family"
[14:35:53] <PetefromTn_> at one point we had several hundred Haitian Refugees living aboard our ship and we were forced to moor offshore in the bay in Cuba while our Government decided what to do with them....that lasted almost five months.
[14:36:11] <SolarNRG> I bet that ship stank of shit
[14:36:27] <PetefromTn_> well we actually had to build facilities for that.
[14:36:51] <PetefromTn_> and they honestly still suffered a lot on board during the time
[14:37:25] <SolarNRG> Well that's a lot better than a lot of other nations, I criticize the US for their mass detention of human beings but at the same time the condition of all your detention centres tends to be the best in the world, guess you guys have the best experience dealing with detaining people as humanely as possible
[14:37:25] <PetefromTn_> as did we since we could not really go outside the ships insides for anything but to work with the Haitian people
[14:37:36] <SolarNRG> was this after the quake?
[14:37:48] <gonzo_nb> you wonder how bad things must have been back home, if that were preferable
[14:38:05] <PetefromTn_> no this was after Aristide was ousted and the military coup happened
[14:38:29] <PetefromTn_> well they were going house to house and murdering families of anyone who even was suspected of being a supporter
[14:38:30] <SolarNRG> what was the deal with the us marines landing in the haiti presidential palace shortly after the quake?
[14:38:41] <PetefromTn_> so yeah they would rather take their chances in the ocean
[14:38:49] <SolarNRG> to me it looked like an invasion taking advantage of a natural disaster
[14:39:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah we were invading Haiti.... whatever
[14:39:26] <PetefromTn_> one of the poorest places on earth after a major natural disaster
[14:39:27] <CaptHindsight> how much to they pay people to make comments on blogs, forums, new stories etc denying global warming, economics crisis's, etc?
[14:39:33] <SolarNRG> well not you personally but the fed
[14:39:59] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I think both global warming and global cooling are happening at the same time
[14:40:07] <PetefromTn_> to be honest I learned a lot about life and humanity during that time dealing with these Haitian people
[14:40:30] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I bet it was an eye opening experience for you as was me doing charity work in ne india
[14:40:37] <PetefromTn_> I cannot imagine what it must have been like for them
[14:41:23] <PetefromTn_> knowing that they had to leave what little they had in the world and take thier families and board rickety boats and voyage out into the ocean with nothing but the currents to take them somewhere
[14:42:05] <SolarNRG> well if you didn't do your job America would have the same problem we in Europe are facing, I was actually considering enlisting for MOAB because of my deep water skills, you know to rescue refugees stuck in the water, the EU's coastguard is a joke none of the states can agree on anything
[14:42:10] <PetefromTn_> I watched in awe as the people who were in basically horrible conditions on board our ship after having been pulled from the ocean often having lost family members to the waves
[14:42:53] <PetefromTn_> we would be pulling them from the ocean in the dead of night in high seas often during the worst conditions
[14:42:56] <SolarNRG> I bet they had no drysuit, no waterproof radio, no life jacket, no signal flares
[14:43:01] <PetefromTn_> many bodies
[14:43:19] <PetefromTn_> yet when they were on our ship sailing to Cuba
[14:43:26] <PetefromTn_> they seemed to hopeful
[14:43:42] <SolarNRG> before I go deep sea I make damn sure I'm still well equiped, damn I still got a drysuit even if I haven't got the dosh to pay for a new hood or even the adhesives for it
[14:43:43] <PetefromTn_> they used to sing Christian songs in the evening together on the decks
[14:44:10] <SolarNRG> I bet these people didn't even have a single day's training dealing with deep ocean survival
[14:44:25] <PetefromTn_> hard to imagine how they could have not been so damn terribly depressed yet there they were all singing and smiling
[14:44:57] <SolarNRG> I know and you know the sea is an indiscriminant!? killer but they were probably more frightened of what was on land than what was at sea
[14:45:02] <PetefromTn_> I think sometimes about my own life and struggles with work/money/family
[14:45:26] <PetefromTn_> and then I remember how I basically live like a KING in comparison
[14:45:29] <SolarNRG> Yeah I know, despite being broke as hell at least I still got a safe country to live in, a house, a car, internet, a fridge a cooker
[14:45:36] <SolarNRG> snap
[14:45:40] <SolarNRG> I totally agree
[14:45:57] <PetefromTn_> most people really do not understand what true poverty looks like
[14:46:06] <SolarNRG> But how long will it be before you or I can't pay the rent and our families are living like they do?
[14:47:13] <SolarNRG> I've seen true poverty
[14:47:18] <SolarNRG> worse than what I'm living in right now
[14:47:27] <SolarNRG> I been to a place called Uttar Praedesh in India
[14:47:30] <SolarNRG> They wash in a black river
[14:47:34] <SolarNRG> They have no clean running water
[14:47:37] <SolarNRG> no electricity
[14:47:43] <SolarNRG> they share a string bed made from bamboo
[14:48:03] <SolarNRG> they cook on stones and wood not gas and electric
[14:48:10] <SolarNRG> they piss in the bush they have no toilet
[14:48:19] <PetefromTn_> It's funny I thought I understood what being poor was before I joined the Coast guard from TV and whatnot
[14:48:26] <PetefromTn_> then I visited Haiti
[14:49:18] <PetefromTn_> It is something I will never forget
[14:49:51] <SolarNRG> imagine for a second you were the haitian
[14:50:04] <SolarNRG> and imagine you couldn't go to the US or EU whenever you wanted
[14:50:07] <PetefromTn_> Oh believe me I have
[14:50:40] <SolarNRG> now imagine you were a disabled retard like me
[14:50:49] <SolarNRG> how would you personally survive?
[14:50:57] <PetefromTn_> which is why I kinda get upset when people here complain about their situations... not taking away from the suffering they are experiencing but at the end of the day it is no comparison
[14:51:09] <PetefromTn_> I don't know anything about you
[14:52:10] <PetefromTn_> but I am sorry to hear you are having difficulties
[14:53:40] <SolarNRG> Well I'm a brit expat living in greece, I have no bank account, no job, I've done a lot with my 30 years of life so far I've made mods for games, paddled by kayak across international waters from one nation to another, I've helped kids in the 3rd world, raising kids, wanted to build a cnc machine ended up using the metal for other projects I ended up selling to pay for my wife's medical bills, I have autism, ptsd, metal plates in my head, brain dama
[14:53:40] <SolarNRG> ge, not held down a paid job EVER, I have survived as long as I have by sponging off other people as much as I can, I've even cleaned cars at the traffic lights to make a couple of bucks and nearly died on so many occassions
[14:54:30] <SolarNRG> I used to smoke weed, then I quit but I took up drinking instead and I think I'm now a worse person because I drink so heavily
[14:55:12] <SolarNRG> I've done plenty of charity work for no pay but employers don't care about that
[14:55:22] <SolarNRG> I used to get money from the British government, now I don't
[14:56:46] <ganzuul> Some employers care about charity work.
[14:58:06] <SolarNRG> I got sent to a "special school" aged 10 for my autism, I fought my way out of it to go to university demanding that people with disabilities should have the same opportunities as normal people
[14:58:14] <SolarNRG> I failed all my exams despite my efforts
[14:58:29] <PetefromTn_> well you are still alive, you sound like a smart fellow, you found your way here, maybe you can use what you have learned to make money teaching or programming as you suggested. There is always a way until there is not one....
[14:58:53] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, my best hope is via the net and I need you to help me to help you in your endevours
[14:59:01] <SolarNRG> there's nothing here, there's no way out of here
[15:00:25] <SolarNRG> I spent a year of my life doing mods for some silly game called Kerbal Space Program, I made many mods including a flying greenhouse that grew food on the moon
[15:00:46] <SolarNRG> The problem is I have skills I can't prove I've got to any employer
[15:00:50] <ganzuul> The most important lesson I have learned from dealing with my troubles is that I have to choose to be positive, even if it seems unreasonable to do so.
[15:00:52] <SolarNRG> and I have no capitol to set up a company
[15:01:04] <PetefromTn_> I know Greece is experiencing severe financial difficulties mostly of their own doing unfortunately but it appears to be putting a lot of innocent people in bad positions
[15:01:14] <ganzuul> KSP is pretty well known.
[15:01:58] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, actually it is the new york bank JP Morgan that inflated this country's economy in the first place and gave odious debt to corrupt politicians that this country is in such a mess, it is not personally your fault but it is the fault of criminal bankers operating in the same nation as where you reside
[15:02:46] <Sync_> well, high debt is not a new thing in greece
[15:05:00] <SolarNRG> Aside from abandoning my house, forcing a 2 year old and a newborn to tramp around the streets of europe like Syrian refugees our only hope of survival is to somehow provide some service to the outside world via the net
[15:09:34] <PetefromTn_> To be honest with you there are plenty of folks here in the US that are now struggling a lot due in large part to those same sort of bankers and Wall street theives that play with money and buy and sell companies regardless of what it will do to the avearage worker
[15:10:02] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I hear that, those words sound round the globe and everyone can relate to that
[15:10:25] <cpresser> are there (sim or usspace) binarys for debian jessie?
[15:11:15] <SolarNRG> cpresser, pass jessies had a lot of issues with the new release and old contributors haven't yet updated their old packages
[15:12:22] <cpresser> ill try run-in-place from a git checkout next
[15:15:14] <SolarNRG> the people in wallstreet are so inhuman they must be on drugs
[15:16:32] <pcw_home> I think the devs are working on getting Jessie packages ready on the buildbot
[15:18:02] <pcw_home> not sure its so much people as mathematics when corporations can change the rules of the game at will
[15:18:58] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: Perscription drugs. A lot of docs are just corporate-affiliated drug dealers.
[15:19:01] <SolarNRG> they pay the best lawyers and lobbiests to change the laws to promote business which promotes taxation and stimulates the economy, 400 businesses control US politics, many of whom also operate in Greece also
[15:19:40] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, how dare you accuse the medical industrial complex, they have saved lots of lives with chemotherapy, abortion, sterilization, AIDS treatment and psychiatry
[15:19:41] <ganzuul> Well, join a workers' union.
[15:20:22] <SolarNRG> :P
[15:20:28] <SolarNRG> not going to attack my strawman?
[15:20:34] <SolarNRG> oh well
[15:20:52] <SolarNRG> I actually agree with you
[15:20:53] <ganzuul> No... I'm rather conservative with my energy these days.
[15:21:50] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: 3d printed dilios? heh
[15:21:53] <ganzuul> The metalworkers' union here in Finland is very strong. It's probably the main reason why we are doing well.
[15:21:58] <XXCoder> sell em to locals
[15:22:21] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, finland was an undefeated independent faction during both world wars
[15:22:22] <MrSunshine> no wonder if your main weapon of choice is axes .. :P
[15:22:58] <SolarNRG> only for your politicians to do the same as mine, hand over national sovereignity and economic control over on a plate for what yours and my ancestors fought so hard against
[15:23:03] <MrSunshine> (the metalworkers union thing) :P
[15:23:24] <ganzuul> :D
[15:24:28] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: Turns out the true power in the country has been entrenched since the 1960s. We have these certal organization for workers and employers who agree on everything behind closed doors.
[15:24:39] <ganzuul> ~central organization
[15:24:43] <Tom_itx> mmm catching up on the logs
[15:24:56] <XXCoder> Greece has massive corruption and bribery issues from what I understand
[15:25:08] <XXCoder> time to fire everyone in goverment and elect everyone new?
[15:25:20] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, if you're looking for all the techies just start a project and watch them come outta the woodwork here
[15:25:37] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: These guys: http://ek.fi/
[15:25:42] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, yep, the police here are so corrupt they are selling drugs on the street
[15:25:55] <Tom_itx> seems this channel has strayed quite a bit since i started haning out here
[15:26:11] <SolarNRG> and the cheif of police enjoys sex out of wedlock with underage boys
[15:26:20] <PetefromTn_> Tom_itx I know man just making BS happen here ;)
[15:26:46] <ganzuul> I could find out what they do... but frankly I expect the information to be hidden behind an immense learning curve coupled with information overflow. - No scerecy, just irredeemably boring beuocracy.
[15:27:32] <Tom_itx> in the meantime enjoy the cruft
[15:28:27] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, the outcome of your nation is probably discussed by a group of old men in a rural pub over a few pint of scandinavian ale.
[15:29:07] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: Some of those old men might be my relatives...
[15:29:21] <Tom_itx> i've volunteered a few places and as an observation of those in need... they always have the latest cellphones and tennis shoes
[15:29:47] <PetefromTn_> hehe
[15:29:48] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, figures, no wonder scandies were so eager to get their pants off with me around, bunch of inbreds
[15:29:50] <PetefromTn_> I know right
[15:30:04] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: You're drunk!
[15:30:05] <SolarNRG> no offense your women are good in the sack
[15:30:10] <SolarNRG> that's a compliment
[15:31:03] <SolarNRG> Yeah I am actually I'm on my 4th beer this evening about to go for my 5th
[15:31:03] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: not nesscarly mean not poor. I had decent phones while I was very poor, because it was a nesscarity. I was accursed that before, and I told guy my phone was 3 years old that time
[15:31:12] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: that specific phone lasted 5 years
[15:31:54] <PetefromTn_> how do poor people afford the cell bills?
[15:31:56] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: and I shopped at used clothes store and ROSS which is cheap but neat clothes and shoes. I looked well off but wasnt.
[15:32:18] <ganzuul> PetefromTn_: free wifi
[15:32:40] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: very careful managment of money. phone was very nesscary to have that time.
[15:32:47] <PetefromTn_> what does wifi have to do with it??
[15:33:26] <ganzuul> You can do VoIP.
[15:33:30] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, we're poor we just don't own cellphones we have a land line we never call anyone on and 10mbit for 50 euros a month we haven't paid in 2 months
[15:33:48] <SolarNRG> But I expect younger people blag other people to pay their credit for them
[15:34:26] <SolarNRG> Also a lot of poor people do "pay as you go" rather than contract
[15:34:41] <SolarNRG> which often ends up being more expensive depending on the tarriff
[15:34:58] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: there is MASSIVE issues on judging people on looks. very poor person living at street has very nice coat. did he steal it?
[15:35:22] <XXCoder> answer is no, guy was well off but something very serious happened and he lost everything but everuthing on him
[15:35:33] <XXCoder> thats just one of many poissibilities.
[15:36:39] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, yeah I was on the street like 5 years ago, it was rough, cops kept harassing me and they only ever asked me for name, date of birth, address then left, it's like "what, you're not going to give me 3 meals a day and a warm room to sleep in?" They only wanted to assess who and how many people were living rough at that time
[15:37:19] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, the govt funds their phones if they can't afford one
[15:37:20] <SolarNRG> I thought they were going to lock me up for vagrancy or something, one cop even tried to find a hostel for me to stay in but no, all of them were all full of muslim immigrants
[15:37:22] <furrywolf> not much at yard sales today. spent a total of about $20, most of which was on a CM chain comealong.
[15:37:45] <XXCoder> I'm glad to say I never lived at streets.. as adult. I lived at campsite for pretty long while as kid because cant afford place that time apparently
[15:38:05] <furrywolf> I've lived in the back of a pickup truck.
[15:38:07] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, same with internet
[15:38:08] <PetefromTn_> I guess that is my point
[15:38:18] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, roughing it out is a tough life but you do see a lot more of the world than the walls of your house
[15:38:27] <XXCoder> I bet.
[15:38:45] <Tom_itx> because they surely need to be 'in touch' more than they need food
[15:38:54] <SolarNRG> I was lucky, I had a kayak, an airbed, a tent, a drysuit, a camping gas stove I was living COMFORTABLE for a homeless man
[15:39:06] <Tom_itx> then they take their food vouchers and sell them for crack
[15:39:06] <SolarNRG> best thing about it was no rent, no bills
[15:39:21] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: poor doing drugs is pretty surpising rare
[15:39:23] <SolarNRG> Tom_itx, one thing I'm really glad I never tried was that crack shit
[15:39:29] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: theyre too POOR for drugs
[15:39:30] <PetefromTn_> people that live in US cities and have access to these things are not what I would call truly poor. there is always something they can do to get off the streets. The homeless in our country are often there because of mental disabilities
[15:39:42] <SolarNRG> I went out and fished mackeral for food
[15:39:51] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, or sheer lazinesss
[15:39:54] <Tom_itx> -s
[15:39:58] <SolarNRG> Cops once asked me if I had a fishing license
[15:40:00] <furrywolf> eh? around here, ALL the poor are on drugs. that's why they're poor.
[15:40:16] <SolarNRG> I said I need an address to apply for a license, I don't have a license so I'm not legible to apply for one
[15:40:17] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: few states drug tested poor on welfare. less than 1% was using.
[15:40:18] <furrywolf> unless you're a worthless drug addict, you can improve yourself.
[15:40:22] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, they figure they can make a better living off the system than if they got an honest job
[15:40:31] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, I only really started smoking weed when I was down and out
[15:40:57] <SolarNRG> It's easy to stereotype until you've actually been there
[15:40:59] <PetefromTn_> its an unfortunate truth really
[15:41:07] <XXCoder> furrywolf: unless youre deaf. then youre pretty screwed. people do NOT hire deaf people. hence 80%+ deaf is umemployed. I am the 20% lucky deaf person.
[15:41:12] <Tom_itx> some of the ones coming in for assistance had more income to show than me
[15:41:24] <Tom_itx> oh and get this... one came in driving a Bentley
[15:41:36] <SolarNRG> Tom_itx, a hobo in a bentley?
[15:41:47] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: you didnt read what I said. sometimes people lose everything and only has what they had before.
[15:41:48] <Tom_itx> well they were begging for a handout...
[15:41:59] <furrywolf> I had a BMW 7-series, despite having almost no money at all.
[15:42:12] <Tom_itx> or just use poor judgement in their financial decisions
[15:42:28] <SolarNRG> I liked being homeless with a kayak, I had no insurance, tax, fuel to pay just to get about
[15:42:28] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: possibly but I do not judge on what they have
[15:42:35] <PetefromTn_> my wife and I get upset when we go to the grocery store, pay tons of money to feed our kids and family, and the lady in line with us is on food stamps. Then you walk outside with your kart and they are driving a brand new car.....
[15:42:47] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: because who knows what happened before.
[15:42:53] <Tom_itx> if they were that hard up they have assets they could sell
[15:43:09] <SolarNRG> ??? brand new car??? food stamps??? how do I get a brand new car and food stamps, I have to PAY for my food
[15:43:13] <SolarNRG> with cash
[15:43:21] <PetefromTn_> Only in the US apparently
[15:43:28] <PetefromTn_> but we see it here all the time
[15:43:34] * furrywolf thinks welfare and foodstamps need to be greatly curtailed
[15:43:40] <SolarNRG> So me and my family go to america, obama will give me a free car and stamps to pay for food with?
[15:43:43] <Tom_itx> it's a robinhood cenario only the rich in this case are the middle class
[15:43:49] <furrywolf> I saw a woman I know the other day paying at Costco with food stamps. She works as a bank teller.
[15:44:03] <SolarNRG> bank staff use food stamps!?
[15:44:04] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: dependable car is vital to family. I'd pay 1/4 of my income to car if it meant problem free car to go to work.
[15:44:07] <SolarNRG> that's taking the piss!
[15:44:14] <SolarNRG> They're the ones behind this mess
[15:44:16] <PetefromTn_> I have no problem with people getting food stamps if they really need it...
[15:44:18] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: and minium wage is well below food stamps
[15:44:28] <cradek> it's very easy to have a job and also be poor here
[15:44:34] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: AND well below what is nesscary to support a family.
[15:44:35] <SolarNRG> well we really need it and we don't get food stamps
[15:44:43] <Tom_itx> SolarNRG, of course... and you can even vote
[15:45:03] <PetefromTn_> yeah but a brand new car? I am not talking about a hyundai here...
[15:45:07] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: also my pay is pretty well above minium wage and I STILL can't afford to live on my own.
[15:45:17] * furrywolf thinks free money should only be given to people who can't work, not people who won't work, or who just want free money.
[15:45:23] <SolarNRG> Tom_itx, yeah I can vote for a lying politician who sells us out to austerity when he promises to end austerity, which liar do you want to vote for the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right?
[15:45:26] <cradek> and I can imagine lots of ways you'd end up poor and with a good car. divorce and husband was the earner, now woman has kids and a car and no real income
[15:45:28] <ganzuul> People doing drugs might mean mental health patients get better help.
[15:45:31] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder You seem to be taking my comments personally....
[15:45:38] <SolarNRG> I said I'm WILLING to work, but nobody'll hire me
[15:45:47] <furrywolf> there's way, way too many people getting free money because they're lazy.
[15:45:52] <PetefromTn_> you have a disability that makes life much harder for you than the average person
[15:46:03] <Tom_itx> cradek, i'm not saying there aren't people with real needs
[15:46:06] <cradek> furrywolf: [citation needed]
[15:46:11] <PetefromTn_> I have NO problem with you getting assistance or whatever
[15:46:13] <Tom_itx> but even more that are taking advantage of it
[15:46:15] <SolarNRG> I mean even if you guys said you'd post me 20 euros for doing a gorgeous 3d model in blender that took me a week to model and texture perfectly I'd still do it
[15:46:21] <Tom_itx> that's the sad part
[15:46:21] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: well my disability is "visiable". there is many invisiable ones.
[15:46:25] <SolarNRG> because then my kid can eat discount crispers
[15:46:40] <furrywolf> cradek: original research. :P
[15:46:49] <XXCoder> my brother, besides deafness (oh look visiable disbility) has MS. you can't see MS but it is crippling.
[15:46:51] <ganzuul> furrywolf: What about people who were educated to be say, mathematicians, and there are no jobs for mathematicians?
[15:46:58] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder you apparently did not read my comments earlier
[15:47:05] <XXCoder> mental idieases is all not visiable
[15:47:08] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, you can't see autism, but it still makes me an unsociable retard
[15:47:10] <furrywolf> ganzuul: then they're obviously smart enough to learn a new skill.
[15:47:24] <SolarNRG> if you have the money to PAY to get the new skill
[15:47:27] <Tom_itx> i could give plenty of examples but can't due to NDA when i signed up to volunteer
[15:47:46] <SolarNRG> Tom_itx, you can buy just change mr smith with mr x
[15:47:48] <furrywolf> this is why I know a little bit about so many fields... because if I can't find a job doing something I know, I find a job doing something I don't know!
[15:47:53] <ganzuul> furrywolf: I was rejected from a metalworking school for adults because I didn't fit in with all the bozos.
[15:48:01] <SolarNRG> and change miniapolis with anytown
[15:48:09] <furrywolf> ... how the hell do you get rejected from a school for not fitting in?
[15:48:14] <cradek> I wonder what percentage of our military we'd have to eliminate to have NO hungry people in the whole country
[15:48:20] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, bullying
[15:48:21] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: Sorry, yes getting it bit personal. I hate argument "guy has X, guys olviously not poor" :)
[15:48:28] <XXCoder> big button for me
[15:48:29] <ganzuul> furrywolf: Beats me. But there are other schools.
[15:48:30] <cradek> perhaps people are mad and judgy about the wrong things
[15:48:36] <Tom_itx> cradek, there would still be hunger
[15:48:37] <SolarNRG> cradek, there are 6 homes in america for every 1 homeless man
[15:48:45] <furrywolf> I showed up to a class I taught wearing fluffy ears and a huge bushy faux fur tail, and I still haven't been rejected from anything. :P
[15:48:47] <SolarNRG> most owned by criminal banking mafia
[15:49:23] <Tom_itx> there are plenty that just take the resources and pawn them for what they want instead of what they need
[15:49:37] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: their homelessness has nothing to do with a lack of housing. it's a lack of motivation.
[15:49:44] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder you might be surprised at how many actually do not need help and take advantage of the kindness of the system. as I said before it is an unfortunate truth
[15:49:51] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, have you personally ever been homeless?
[15:50:05] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: yes. and every time, I GOT A FUCKING JOB, and fixed the problem.
[15:50:10] <XXCoder> furrywolf: thats where youre wrong unfortunately. it took me LONG time to get decent job, and its not lack of trying.
[15:50:19] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, how did you get a job when you had no address?
[15:50:24] <ganzuul> furrywolf: My point was that when you have spent most of your life in the belief that you'll work as a mathematician, when it turns out employment opportunities aren't as rosy as they were out to be, then the rest of society has a duty to support the guy who got suckered into learning the wrong thing.
[15:50:34] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: why do you need an address to get a job?
[15:50:49] <SolarNRG> I made money when I was homeless sure but I never in my whole life ever had a job
[15:50:50] <furrywolf> ganzuul: I have an utterly useless BS degree that has nothing to do with my job whatsoever. You deal with it.
[15:50:58] <furrywolf> and I took quite a few math classes to get it, too.
[15:51:08] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: yeah. surpising uncommon though. goverment does pretty decent job on that. there will ALWAYS be small percentage
[15:51:14] <SolarNRG> I used to wash ppl's cars they give me a fiver I could get a burger
[15:51:24] <PetefromTn_> LOL apparently not
[15:51:30] <SolarNRG> now I'm in greece you'd die before you even managed to walk to the traffic lights in this heat
[15:51:36] <XXCoder> furrywolf: most jobs wont hire if you dont have an address.
[15:51:44] <SolarNRG> That being said, it is starting to get cool again :)
[15:51:59] <SolarNRG> time to get my "obama's not the only one who wants change" sign
[15:52:24] <ganzuul> furrywolf: Then you might have wasted a lot of time getting that degree, and the school had too many openings.
[15:52:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: I gave a random friend's address, but you could also just invent something, unless you plan to have your paychecks mailed to you...
[15:52:56] <tiwake> cradek: that will never happen
[15:53:01] <ganzuul> furrywolf: ...That was you? You were on reddit.
[15:53:07] <furrywolf> you could also give the address of the local homeless shelter or any other facilities...
[15:53:11] <furrywolf> ganzuul: what was me?
[15:53:18] <tiwake> cradek: for instance, I'm sitting here right now slightly hungry, but too lazy to even get up and make something to eat
[15:53:24] <tiwake> :P
[15:53:28] <SolarNRG> here in greece there are like 2 jobs to every 100,000 people
[15:53:34] <furrywolf> it's 1:30pm and I haven't had anything to eat.
[15:53:45] <ganzuul> The professor's assistant guy who turned up in a fursuit after asking if it was ok
[15:54:00] <XXCoder> ... what the fu.. I may have found cause of my strange heath issues. if it is correct I have something very rare
[15:54:04] <SolarNRG> maybe in america it is easy to earn your way out of homelessness but here in Europe it is not so easy
[15:54:07] <PetefromTn_> I just ate some chips and dip and my wife is making cinammon rolls ;)
[15:54:19] <furrywolf> I wasn't an assistant, it wasn't a fursuit, I didn't ask anyone, and this predates the existance of reddit. :P
[15:54:28] <ganzuul> huh
[15:54:36] <ganzuul> Well someone's copying your style, man
[15:54:37] <XXCoder> ganzuul: and that guy is a he
[15:54:42] <XXCoder> she arent a he ;)
[15:54:48] <ganzuul> oh
[15:55:12] <Tom_itx> who could be sure here
[15:55:21] <PetefromTn_> It's a mess
[15:55:23] <ganzuul> My prejudice, thinking everybody on the autism spectrum is male.
[15:55:31] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: I just follow what they say, reardless of actual gender they have
[15:55:48] <SolarNRG> girls get autism too
[15:55:49] <Tom_itx> yeah but some are better than others at it
[15:55:53] <SolarNRG> only a lot get missed
[15:56:09] <PetefromTn_> Good lord this is a depressing place here today...isn't anyone doing something cool or interesting?
[15:56:25] <cradek> the 2.7.0 release is building...
[15:56:27] <Tom_itx> dammit PetefromTn_ get your friggin carousel working...
[15:56:31] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: I went to yard sales and got a chain comealong, that's mildly interesting. :P
[15:56:36] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: plan to work on my linuxcnc pc somewhat soon. hard to get movation up
[15:56:41] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I'm looking up resuccitation of new born infants because I can't afford a hospital so I'm training to be a midwife
[15:56:42] <PetefromTn_> indeed....
[15:56:43] <Tom_itx> cradek, release or pre?
[15:56:53] <cpresser> cradek: will there be debian jessie binarys?
[15:57:05] <cpresser> (i am looking for a -sim package right now)
[15:57:06] <furrywolf> cpresser: I sure hope not. jessie sucks.
[15:57:12] <cradek> the real release
[15:57:13] <PetefromTn_> I am working on a new version of my Feinwerkbau P70 riser with Picatinny rail this time...
[15:57:18] <Tom_itx> cool
[15:57:31] <Tom_itx> cradek, when's the expected announcement?
[15:57:34] <XXCoder> furrywolf: whats wrong with jessie
[15:57:40] <furrywolf> XXCoder: systemd.
[15:57:41] <PetefromTn_> gotta make one here and get it shipped....even before the program exists LOL
[15:57:44] <Tom_itx> barring any buildbot hickups
[15:57:45] <ganzuul> PetefromTn_: I discovered transformers turned magnetic chucks!
[15:57:48] <cradek> yes, looks like jessie with rt-preempt on both i386 and amd64
[15:57:54] <XXCoder> ah
[15:58:00] <ganzuul> PetefromTn_: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/62497-DIY-Magnetic-Chuck-Machining-Workholder
[15:58:00] <PetefromTn_> you mean like the movie?
[15:58:01] <cradek> Tom_itx: handful of hours
[15:58:13] <ganzuul> PetefromTn_: No, cooler. Has magnets.
[15:58:15] <Tom_itx> i saw him push something remotely there
[15:58:22] <furrywolf> I tried jessie, and systemd failed just as badly as ever. random boot problems, no user-friendly way to fix anything.
[15:58:29] <ganzuul> PetefromTn_: That's not me.
[15:58:30] <PetefromTn_> Oh I thought Optimus Prime was in love or something
[15:58:47] <furrywolf> systemd should absolutely not be present on any machine expected to be used by industry or to move pointy things.
[15:58:59] <XXCoder> always thought linuxcnc should move to more lightweight linux
[15:59:39] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, jessie's got gpu driver issues bigtime
[16:00:08] <SolarNRG> I had to figure out how to do it in ubuntu first before I could do it in jesse without booting to blankscreen
[16:00:45] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: yes. even the version of grub shipped with it, using jessie's default grub config, fails on my standard radeon card.
[16:00:47] <SolarNRG> there's like 5 repos you'll need before either the amd or the nvidia drivers will install properly
[16:00:49] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: guess that explains why I can't use gpu for firefox
[16:00:52] <PetefromTn_> only time I ever used a mag chuck was on a surface grinder
[16:01:01] <XXCoder> ughh
[16:01:08] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, firefox why u not using iceweasel or k-meleon?
[16:01:13] <ganzuul> Have to join in on hating on systemd... It's too big a change. Stuff breaks.
[16:01:20] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: im using mint xfce
[16:01:25] <furrywolf> yes. jessie is VERY broken.
[16:01:26] <SolarNRG> firefox is full of well known exploits, using that shit u are ASKING to be hacked with javascript exploits
[16:01:34] <furrywolf> simple things like powering off and rebooting... broken.
[16:01:38] <SolarNRG> oh god, you don't even know
[16:01:39] <PetefromTn_> I don't know what the hell you guys are talking about.....thankfully
[16:01:39] <furrywolf> even using the included GUIs.
[16:01:41] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: assuming I have javascript enabled
[16:01:43] <SolarNRG> mint is backdoored
[16:01:46] <SolarNRG> delete, format
[16:01:58] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: article?
[16:02:09] <SolarNRG> can you log in as root in mint?
[16:02:11] <SolarNRG> no?
[16:02:14] <XXCoder> yes
[16:02:15] <SolarNRG> the makers of mint can
[16:02:18] <SolarNRG> I rest my case
[16:02:23] <XXCoder> uh no
[16:02:24] <just_pink> Wolf_Mill: can you please resend the pic with the gas springs
[16:02:29] <just_pink> ?
[16:02:43] <XXCoder> anyone who owns his or her own pc can login as root on their own pc as root, SolarNRG.
[16:03:07] <SolarNRG> debian sure
[16:03:09] <SolarNRG> arch sure
[16:03:17] <SolarNRG> even ubuntu sort of maybe
[16:03:20] <SolarNRG> mint.....
[16:03:30] <SolarNRG> they got control of your system
[16:03:33] <cradek> [citation needed]
[16:03:37] <SolarNRG> take my word or leave it
[16:03:40] <XXCoder> indeed cradek
[16:03:45] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: sorry I need more proof
[16:03:54] <XXCoder> word on irc means nothing really/
[16:04:06] <SolarNRG> I saw it on a tonne of articles I can't be f8cked to dig them up 4 u now, if you wanna continue using mint go ahead
[16:04:18] <SolarNRG> but trust me, it's backdoored
[16:04:31] <SolarNRG> so's ubuntu
[16:04:54] <ganzuul> Chrome's silent updates is a backdoor too.
[16:04:57] <PetefromTn_> http://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/tig-stick/powertig-250ex Thinking of getting one like this...
[16:05:07] <SolarNRG> chrome is google, they are sucking the nsa's cock, yes you're right,
[16:05:57] <ganzuul> You can secure a linux distro... It IS possible. Just very, very difficult.
[16:06:03] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, I envy your bank account balance, but it looks like a REALLY nice welder
[16:06:09] * furrywolf needs a tig welder
[16:06:14] * furrywolf also needs a bank account balance
[16:06:19] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, arch is pretty secure
[16:06:34] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=195724
[16:06:35] <SolarNRG> so's kali
[16:06:40] <PetefromTn_> What bank account balance LOL
[16:06:42] <XXCoder> I checked mine, not enabled wither
[16:07:00] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, you don't think the moderators of linux mint would ever delete anything that damaged their public relations do you?
[16:07:06] <ganzuul> Kali is meant for pen testing. You're thinking of the other one...
[16:07:16] <PetefromTn_> I just think I can pay for this if I can get this Tig work going with the race shop guys.... still working on that.
[16:07:28] <PetefromTn_> but it would be nice to have that machine here at the shop
[16:07:45] <PetefromTn_> my other Tig does not have all the new features/pulsing etc.
[16:07:48] <ganzuul> Tails.
[16:08:40] <SolarNRG> mind u mint is not the worst offender, ubuntu has far worse well known exploits and don't even get me started about windows 10 sending webcam photos of you and microphone recording of you every five minutes to microsoft
[16:08:47] <ganzuul> Something for Windows users, while on the subject: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2458544
[16:09:05] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, snap, windows sucks amen
[16:09:05] <ganzuul> EMET is actually pretty good. Hilariously, it's not installed by default.
[16:10:19] * furrywolf thinks a discussion on the distribution to be included with 2.7 to be much more interesting than generic OS hatred and conspiracy theories.
[16:11:28] <furrywolf> I really don't think systemd is suitable for any type of industrial, production, or dangerous environment... and Jessie is just plain broken in general.
[16:11:32] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: theres pretty good proof of windows 10 stuff and that is why I decided not to ever update it
[16:11:51] <pcw_home> If you are concerned build from source on your platform of choice (its not that hard)
[16:12:05] <XXCoder> furrywolf: old way, while it worked, needed updating. systemmd isnt it
[16:12:06] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, I got hacked I formatted all windows shit off all my hdds for good, lost loads of work loads of art I'm all ext4 on these hdd's baby
[16:12:14] <SolarNRG> win7 was my last windows
[16:12:18] <XXCoder> same
[16:12:20] <SolarNRG> I don't even get windows 8
[16:12:29] <SolarNRG> windows 10 is pure satanic evil
[16:12:32] <XXCoder> didnt format mine though, saved it as backup stuff.
[16:12:36] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: lol dont go too far
[16:12:54] <SolarNRG> it should be called Windows: Apocalypse ediditon
[16:12:56] <SolarNRG> edition
[16:13:22] <furrywolf> I ended up wiping the drive I put jessie on... systemd is not uninstallable in any reasonable fashion. The various shell scripts that get run when you attempt to remove it prevent its removal. If you get it, you're stuck with it.
[16:13:51] <SolarNRG> jessie needs a lot, A LOT of work
[16:14:18] <PetefromTn_> you mean this jessie? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxZxaL2ecNw
[16:14:19] <furrywolf> I gave up on getting dpkg to remove it, and tried deleting the files directly... ended up hosing the box.
[16:14:37] <ganzuul> Yanno, a PC isn't a single CPU. It's a whole bunch of processors on a network; a bus like PCI-e. You might secure your OS, but for example the DMA controller might be sending every last bit of info you access in your system over 10GB etherent.
[16:14:55] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, no that's not the jessie I meant but all the same the music is cool and I am enjoying listening to the song
[16:15:14] <PetefromTn_> OK just checking
[16:15:47] <PetefromTn_> https://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/5163529905.html good deal here
[16:15:55] <fenn> or "system management mode" hacks that bypass the OS entirely
[16:15:56] <ganzuul> SoCs aren't much better. To really be secure, you need to be doing your stuff on a microcontroller, or employ a TPM chip.
[16:16:14] <pcw_home> PC architecture is bad in that respect, at least Sun had the smarts to run DMA through virtual memory
[16:16:14] <ganzuul> fenn: exactly
[16:16:23] <SolarNRG> fenn, smm is like the secret NSA layer between most people's hardware and their main OS
[16:16:46] <furrywolf> If that were on the local craigslist, I'd offer him an EU6500is in trade for it. :)
[16:16:50] <SolarNRG> PC architecture is older than me
[16:16:55] <SolarNRG> and I'm useless
[16:17:03] <SolarNRG> ARM is probably the future
[16:17:12] <fenn> ffs SolarNRG do you have to put yourself down every third line
[16:17:20] <pcw_home> and sucked from the beginning
[16:17:25] <pcw_home> ARM is worse
[16:17:28] <PetefromTn_> speaking of Tig welders I found out that my trusty WP17F Tig torch is fubar'd.... Gonna need to buy a new one
[16:17:36] <SolarNRG> to be fair the x86 was ahead of its time back in the early 80s
[16:17:45] <pcw_home> nope
[16:17:54] <SolarNRG> fenn, I got fck all to offer this world I can't even feed my own kids
[16:17:55] <pcw_home> it was a bad idea then
[16:17:57] <fenn> pcw_home: why do you dislike ARM?
[16:17:59] <furrywolf> I wrote a compiler that ran on Sparc chips... much nicer than x86... :P
[16:18:16] <pcw_home> mishmash architecture
[16:18:17] <SolarNRG> segmentable memory
[16:18:26] <furrywolf> I haven't done any work on arm, at all, so don't know what its architecture is like.
[16:18:43] <fenn> so, not the CPU "core" but the company's IP strategy?
[16:18:54] <SolarNRG> I done work on pic and atmega architecture, I like it's "bare metal", i.e. no shady shit on it you're talking straight to the chip
[16:19:15] <SolarNRG> back in the day I had to talk to pic on assembly
[16:19:29] <furrywolf> most of my uC experience is on the 68hc11.
[16:19:31] <SolarNRG> forgot most of it now, jump, jumpequals all that crap
[16:19:50] <furrywolf> I wrote a little preemptive multitasking kernel for the hc11, in asm...
[16:20:00] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, that is an OOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLD chip
[16:20:03] <furrywolf> yes
[16:20:11] <ganzuul> Funny thing about TPM chips! Dell supplies them to most Western militaries and gubmits, and buy them from China.
[16:20:12] <furrywolf> most chips are derivitaves of old chips. :P
[16:20:14] <SolarNRG> comparable to early pics
[16:20:14] <furrywolf> also, I'm old.
[16:20:54] <SolarNRG> i bet im older
[16:21:37] <fenn> has anyone tried using a vertical shear cutter in a fly cutter for getting super duper awesome finish on milled surfaces?
[16:21:43] <furrywolf> I bet I'm hungrier.
[16:21:49] * furrywolf pokes around pete's kitchen
[16:22:11] <fenn> it was originally used in shapers but nobody has shapers anymore...
[16:22:26] <PetefromTn_> I use a homemade Stainless steel flycutter in my VMC because I am too cheap to ante up for a quality facemill hehe
[16:22:39] <PetefromTn_> furrywolf is that you in my damn cupboard?
[16:23:04] <PetefromTn_> get your fuzzy ass outta my kitchen before I grab the shotgun ;)
[16:23:07] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, stainless cutters are alright, but a lot of high speed steels use alloys which are very rich in tungsten because of its hardness
[16:23:09] <furrywolf> :(
[16:23:16] <fenn> i have thought about making insert holders but it's too complicated all those letters and numbers :P
[16:23:30] <fenn> need to read a book on carbide inserts i guess
[16:23:43] <PetefromTn_> no the body of the shop built flycutter is stainless that I made
[16:25:08] <ganzuul> What sorta accuracy might one get with a vertical shear flycutter, compared to say surface grinding?
[16:25:28] * PetefromTn_ thinks man I really need to get up off my ass and make some stuff in the shop but it appears to be wedged in this damn couch
[16:25:32] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, how did you make that flycutter so balanced?
[16:25:48] <PetefromTn_> who says it is balanced heh
[16:26:08] <PetefromTn_> I can't spin it up above more than about 3k RPM or it starts to sound like shit...
[16:26:09] <furrywolf> the best way to make a flycutter balanced is a really rigid spindle. :P
[16:26:25] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, hahahaha, yeah dynamic balancing is an art
[16:26:29] <ganzuul> say like a LATHE??
[16:26:35] <fenn> it doesn't look that hard to make lathe insert holders at least: http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/toolholder_3/toolholder_3-e.htm
[16:26:54] <furrywolf> I just have a generic chinese flycutter set.
[16:26:57] <XXCoder> guess thats why flywheel usually is wide and has oppositing counterweights
[16:27:01] <XXCoder> some come in disc form
[16:27:11] <XXCoder> nver used flycutter myself
[16:27:21] <SolarNRG> I turned my drill press into a lathe by putting a skate bearing in the holder clamped between 3 sheets of metal, one like 8mm one 22mm one 8mm again and had the spindle in the middle and that bearing stopped lateral motion when I turned the drill on
[16:27:33] <SolarNRG> it'll only lathe like a small bit of wood but heh
[16:28:06] <fenn> a fly cutter shouldn't go 3k rpm in the first place, you still need to keep a reasonable surface speed like with any cutter
[16:28:10] <furrywolf> I needed to turn some aluminum once, and all I had was a drill. so I ran the workpiece in a V made of two blocks of wood, using a file to remove material. it worked! :P
[16:28:18] <furrywolf> it's like a followrest, but wood, and crappy. :)
[16:28:38] <XXCoder> fur saw a video on how to make a crappy lathe
[16:28:59] <XXCoder> just need few stuff but it will turn few inches rod and length of feet or so
[16:29:07] <XXCoder> wood only
[16:29:10] <SolarNRG> you guys ever tried a pane of glass and contact cementing 80 grit sandpaper to it? that'll give u a real flat flat surface
[16:29:15] <SolarNRG> and it'll keep u fit too
[16:29:32] <fenn> i did the glass and sandpaper trick once
[16:29:41] <fenn> took a long time to remove any metal
[16:29:48] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: funny, that. I just saw video on how to make superflat engine header surface using that
[16:29:49] <fenn> would have been easier to just scrape it
[16:30:03] <XXCoder> fenn: or start by scrape then flatten using that method?
[16:30:11] <fenn> yeah
[16:30:19] <fenn> it's just for surface finish at that point
[16:30:29] <fenn> and then you don't need the glass
[16:30:52] <fenn> superfinishing is a neat idea though
[16:31:11] <XXCoder> dunno extra-flatness may be worth it? dunno dont fix cars, in least not to that major point
[16:31:23] <fenn> what do cars have to do with anything
[16:31:46] <XXCoder> was talking about fixing car header contact points lol but yeah can be anything
[16:32:16] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, that's now one of my primary tools!
[16:32:22] <SolarNRG> In fact I have 3 panes of glass
[16:32:31] <SolarNRG> one with 80 grit, one with 100 grit one with 120 grit
[16:32:35] <fenn> is your name whitworth
[16:32:44] <SolarNRG> Is it that black guy in the yard in detroit?
[16:32:52] <SolarNRG> that's the video that inspired me
[16:33:00] <SolarNRG> brilliant bit of engineering advice
[16:33:04] <SolarNRG> because glass doesn't warp
[16:33:07] <SolarNRG> it just shatters
[16:33:12] <SolarNRG> it retains its FLATNESS
[16:33:23] <fenn> "Whitworth popularised a method of producing accurate flat surfaces (see Surface plate) during the 1830s, using engineer's blue and scraping techniques on three trial surfaces. Up until his introduction of the scraping technique, the same three plate method was employed using polishing techniques, giving less accurate results. This led to an explosion of development of precision instruments using
[16:33:23] <Sync_> that's not true
[16:33:25] <SolarNRG> and it cost me less than $10 to do
[16:33:29] <fenn> these flat surface generation techniques as a basis for further construction of precise shapes."
[16:33:49] <SolarNRG> woah I never realised it was that old!?
[16:33:59] <SolarNRG> sometimes the oldest methods are the best
[16:34:12] <Sync_> your glass panes will warp
[16:34:13] <SolarNRG> I made phosphorus from my pee once that method dates back to alchemy days
[16:34:17] <fenn> glass does warp under load
[16:34:32] <SolarNRG> not anywhere near as much as wood or steel tho
[16:34:41] <fenn> you need to bed it in epoxy, and even then you have to worry about thermal expansion etc
[16:34:43] <Deejay> gn8
[16:35:00] <fenn> there's a reason surface plates are so thick
[16:35:30] <fenn> i like the huge astronomy telescope mirror designs where you cast a hexagonal honeycomb into the glass
[16:36:01] <fenn> you could cast something like that crudely and then bed a piece of plate glass with glass-filled epoxy
[16:36:47] <XXCoder> fenn: yeah theres website on guy doing exactly that
[16:36:50] <XXCoder> pretty amazing.
[16:36:53] <fenn> it would be less heavy than a 6 inch slab of granite at least
[16:37:06] <fenn> so many heavy things do bother with in machining...
[16:37:26] <Sync_> you also want a material that does age well
[16:37:29] <Sync_> which glass is not
[16:37:38] <SolarNRG> honeycomb was used on the sr71 blackbird
[16:37:47] <ganzuul> XXCoder: Link?
[16:37:53] <XXCoder> sure a sec
[16:37:59] <ganzuul> \o/
[16:37:59] <SolarNRG> it's light, strong and is relatively good for retaining structure under heat and load
[16:38:06] <XXCoder> hard to find a bit lol I do have favorite
[16:38:28] <SolarNRG> double sided honeycomb tends to work best
[16:40:27] <SolarNRG> yeah glass breaks easy on my metal table
[16:40:32] <XXCoder> damn found it
[16:40:32] <SolarNRG> stainless ages quite well
[16:40:36] <XXCoder> ganzuul: http://www.mdpub.com/index.html
[16:40:44] <SolarNRG> treated wood is not bad
[16:40:48] <XXCoder> oh and he updated. been a bit
[16:40:50] <ganzuul> ty!
[16:41:00] <SolarNRG> polycarbonate's fine
[16:41:08] <SolarNRG> abs melts in the sub
[16:41:09] <SolarNRG> sun
[16:41:19] <SolarNRG> fiberglass is ok
[16:41:25] <SolarNRG> bronze
[16:41:26] <SolarNRG> lead
[16:41:35] <SolarNRG> they age alright
[16:41:40] <SolarNRG> copper turns green with age
[16:42:01] <SolarNRG> aluminium gets this white coating aluminium oxide
[16:42:10] <SolarNRG> so you gotta put a pvc coating on it
[16:42:18] <SolarNRG> all steels will be alright if you learn to galvanize
[16:42:28] <SolarNRG> ahem "electroplate"
[16:42:40] <fenn> can't you "season" glass in an oven like they do cast iron?
[16:42:56] <fenn> heat treating that removes internal stresses so it stays stable over time
[16:43:05] <fenn> normalizing
[16:43:16] <pcw_home> They certainly do for telescope mirrors
[16:44:11] <Sync_> you can, but grinding will always reintroduce stresses
[16:44:38] <SolarNRG> fenn, you'd also need to heat treat it in a hard vacuum
[16:44:45] <fenn> if it's normalized it should be isotropic so there's no stresses built up in a surface layer to remove during grinding...
[16:45:03] <ganzuul> New-age anti-stress doohickey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_peening
[16:45:12] <fenn> hehe i've been reading that article too
[16:45:30] <ganzuul> \o/
[16:45:34] <fenn> another use for KY jelly
[16:46:19] <pcw_home> the internal stresses are removed grinding does not create new stress
[16:46:21] <pcw_home> large glass things are always annealed
[16:46:21] <XXCoder> heh
[16:46:51] <SolarNRG> ganzuul, so if I got tiny leaks in a compressor I welded badly it can seal the tiny holes?
[16:47:02] <SpeedEvil> Why does it have leaks?
[16:47:18] <Sync_> I heard that polishing them will introduce stress pcw_home
[16:47:38] <fenn> polishing smears the crystals around, unlike superfinishing which cuts them cleanly
[16:47:40] <furrywolf> if you're welding badly, don't weld on pressure vessels. they go boom.
[16:47:47] <SpeedEvil> In general, if you're welding on the tank of a compressor, you should not do that.
[16:48:17] <fenn> unfortunately superfinishing seems to be a lost art
[16:48:23] <SpeedEvil> If you must use a compressor that has been welded on like that - and not pressure tested - surround it with a berm of sandbags.
[16:48:29] <pcw_home> there may be very minor surface effects but if you dont very slowly anneal a large glass object it will have enormous stresses
[16:48:33] <ganzuul> SolarNRG: You can stop the leaks from getting bigger... maybe
[16:48:59] <Sync_> I have some 3M superfinishing band
[16:49:04] <Sync_> works really well
[16:50:02] <ganzuul> Isn't superfinishing just doing a figure 8 on emery paper? Or tumbling with polishing pellets?
[16:50:04] <fenn> i don't understand why you would use a film for superfinishing, seems to defeat the purpose
[16:50:17] <SolarNRG> 3m know all about how to work with really toxic chemicals, they used to make floppy disks and the gases they let off during production were really bad
[16:50:37] <fenn> ganzuul: tumbling with pellets, no.
[16:50:58] <fenn> ganzuul: lapping on emery paper is similar, but you do a random motion instead of a figure 8
[16:51:10] <Sync_> fenn: why would that defeat the purpose?
[16:51:18] <Sync_> where your media is contained in doesn't really matter
[16:51:23] <fenn> also it's best to do short movements and this is hard to do by hand
[16:51:38] <fenn> Sync_: a film conforms to the surface instead of being a generated surface
[16:51:53] <Sync_> you have a pressure roller
[16:51:58] <fenn> imagine trying to make a surface plate by sanding it with a pressure roller
[16:52:10] <fenn> you would just get a negative image of the roller
[16:52:15] <Sync_> you don't want to contour the surface
[16:52:16] <SolarNRG> lasers are still feeble in terms of metal penetration compared to electron beams, however they can operate in atmosphere wheras electron beams require a hard vacuum
[16:52:27] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: that is not quite true
[16:52:27] <Sync_> you want to just take the amorphous layer off
[16:52:33] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, go on
[16:52:41] <fenn> well i want it to be flat too
[16:52:47] <Sync_> it will be flat
[16:52:49] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: e-beams can be used in air - 'plasma window' and lasers can have great penetration for high-power pulse lasers
[16:53:00] <Sync_> if it is not flat before, it will not be flat afterwards
[16:53:27] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, I thought if u tried to make electron beams in atmo the electrons only charge the air molecules!? then didn't heat up what u wanted to
[16:53:53] <SpeedEvil> air has a finite absorbtion of e-beams.
[16:54:01] <SpeedEvil> It is large, but not infintie
[16:54:12] <Sync_> if that'd be the case how do you make PEX SpeedEvil?
[16:54:14] <Sync_> eh SolarNRG
[16:54:23] <SolarNRG> Sync_, think of an old tv yeah?
[16:54:24] <Sync_> or lichtenberg figures
[16:54:26] <SolarNRG> how does that work?
[16:54:53] <SolarNRG> an electron gun beams electrons on a plate and goes zigzag zigag updown leftright and magically makes an image yeah?
[16:55:02] <SolarNRG> that cathode ray tube is a hard vacuum
[16:55:10] <Sync_> yes
[16:55:11] <Sync_> go on
[16:55:23] <SolarNRG> but that electron wouldn't go straight if there was an atmosphere there
[16:55:35] <Sync_> sure
[16:55:52] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window
[16:55:56] <Sync_> a gas laser has a special cavity, too doesn't it?
[16:55:58] <SolarNRG> what speedevil's getting at is that if you have a beam of electrons powerful enough even with an atmosphere there you could still theoretically make an image possible but the power consumption would be enormous
[16:56:03] <Sync_> but the light goes on in atmosphere?!
[16:56:06] <Sync_> magic!
[16:56:12] <SpeedEvil> I wasn't mewaning for imaging.
[16:56:19] <SpeedEvil> But for welding and cutting and ...
[16:56:39] <XXCoder> Sync_: light scatters, expecially around blue
[16:56:51] <SolarNRG> Sync_, yeah the air bends light which is what lasers use, photons, electron beams are jsut electrons and they get effected by air molecules very easily because of the proton's positive charge and the electrons orbiting them's negative charge
[16:57:05] <fenn> i'm pretty sure you can't e-beam weld in atmosphere
[16:57:15] <Sync_> that's not the point, you can generate ebeams and couple them air
[16:57:20] <Sync_> there is no problem in doing so
[16:57:32] <ganzuul> You'd also irradiate anyone watching that image.
[16:58:01] <Sync_> ebeam crosslinking is a big thing
[16:58:09] <SolarNRG> what speedevil is basically saying is that if you have a strong enough beam of electrons the nearbly air molecules can become saturated with electrons and no more electrons can be absorbed and the remaining electrons in the beam will still hit their target, however by removing the air from the equation you can acheive the same results at a fraction of the power consumption costs
[16:58:16] <fenn> so is there a very thin sheet of beryllium or something keeping the air out?
[16:58:20] <SolarNRG> Sync_, ebeam crosslinking!?
[16:58:38] <SpeedEvil> fenn: no - it's plasma - that's the awesome bit
[16:58:59] <SolarNRG> fenn, I understand old skool crt monitors used to use a brass alloy and europium as the screen that the electrons turned into an image using the photoelectric effect
[16:59:00] <SpeedEvil> fenn: you have argon at ~15000K in a strong magnetic field to contain the plasma
[16:59:27] <fenn> how do you shoot electrons through a plasma contained in a strong magnetic field? seems like the worst possible place for an e-beam to be
[16:59:31] <SpeedEvil> fenn: the internal pressure of the argon is >>1atm, but because the density is ~0, it goes through
[16:59:32] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, so a tig in a vacuum with some alternators basically?
[17:00:25] <Sync_> fenn: mostly, and silicon nitrides
[17:00:40] <SolarNRG> fenn you have to computationally model the magnetic fields that is holding the plasma and it depends if ur doing a tocomac, a polywell a farnsworth fusor depends on your magnetic configuration
[17:00:50] <SpeedEvil> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1308.5524.pdf
[17:00:51] <SpeedEvil> is neat
[17:00:56] <Sync_> SolarNRG: achieving mean free path lengths to be meaningful is too much of a hassle
[17:01:41] <SolarNRG> Sync_, isn't mean free paths an arbitrary mathematical concept for levels of vacuum?
[17:02:07] <Sync_> yes
[17:02:25] <Sync_> but if you look at the vacuum you need to actually reduce the possibility of a collision significantly it is not worth it
[17:02:31] <Sync_> you can just crank the dose rate up
[17:02:39] <Sync_> which is cheaper than having a huge vacuum chamber
[17:03:05] <SpeedEvil> mean free path is informative for air too.
[17:03:25] <SpeedEvil> It for example tells you - with the speed of sound - of the order of magnitude of maximum transmisssible frequency in air.
[17:03:43] <SpeedEvil> It also tells you about how big you can make a thermos
[17:04:05] <fenn> the size of a beer keg
[17:04:10] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, there's a limit to how big a thermos you can engineer?
[17:04:28] <fenn> any bigger than that is just not worth it
[17:04:34] <SpeedEvil> Air bounces off air.
[17:04:40] <SpeedEvil> This is how heat transfers.
[17:04:49] <SolarNRG> we think
[17:05:06] <SolarNRG> we very very strongly suscpect at least
[17:05:13] <SpeedEvil> To a 0th order, it does not matter for heat transfer between two surfaces if you have an air molecule bouncing between them, or bouncing between a thousand atoms in series
[17:05:37] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, woah we're getting into the realms of hypothetical thermodynamics here
[17:05:55] <SpeedEvil> this means that tehre is a certain critical pressure for any given gap when you reduce the pressure below, it stops conducting linearly with reduction in pressure.
[17:06:13] <SolarNRG> there are at least 5 known forms of heat transfer, conduction, convection, transpiration, radiation and magnetic cooling
[17:06:16] <SpeedEvil> above this pressure - thermal conduction is about constant all the way up to atmosphere.
[17:07:32] <SpeedEvil> For pressure as much as 1 pascal, for example, for gaps of over 1mm or so, the thermal conductance is constant with pressure all the way up to 100000Pa (atmospheric)
[17:07:36] <SolarNRG> but say I used a different material for the walls of my vacuum chamber? say I used a differnt fluid for my coolant, wouldn't this change the parameters of the thermodynamics of my system?
[17:07:56] <SpeedEvil> this is talking of conduction through a gas.
[17:08:20] <ganzuul> 30KW for that plasma window... that's a lot.
[17:08:26] <SpeedEvil> getting a functional thermos is surprisingly hard.
[17:08:55] <SolarNRG> also there are engineering concepts take into account, if I make a polywell fusion reactor, there's no air in there or nearly none, so I have to think of heating of my materials less in terms of conductions and more in terms of radiation
[17:09:08] <SpeedEvil> Because you need to get the mean free path well below the distance between the walls
[17:09:56] <Sync_> which is not really hard
[17:10:21] <SolarNRG> Also if you're engineering such a system don't you have to have highly specialized instrumentation that can detect micro-torr, even nano-torr pressures?
[17:10:29] <Sync_> sucking on it with a turbo is not hard
[17:10:38] <SolarNRG> Sync_, turbo?
[17:10:43] <Sync_> measuring to 10^-13mbar is easy
[17:10:50] <SolarNRG> as in an automotive turbo to generate a vacuum?
[17:10:59] <Sync_> lab-speak for turbomolecular pump
[17:10:59] <fenn> turbomolecular pump
[17:11:08] <fenn> a $5k device
[17:11:10] <SolarNRG> oh yeah, a fancy vacuum pump that costs 10k
[17:11:23] <SolarNRG> hahahahaha, 5k u wish
[17:11:26] <fenn> well, used
[17:11:29] <SolarNRG> 2nd hand maybe
[17:11:30] <SolarNRG> snap
[17:11:34] <Sync_> used, maybe 200€
[17:11:38] <SolarNRG> where?
[17:11:39] <Sync_> new, depends on volume
[17:12:03] <SolarNRG> I can buy a 2 stage vacuum pump that can do 0.5 mbar for 220 euros
[17:12:07] <Sync_> alcatel membrane/turbo sets are I think around 4.5k for 30l
[17:12:11] <SolarNRG> it's like 1/2hps
[17:12:20] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: 0.5mbar is not a high vacuum
[17:12:38] <Sync_> I got about every pumping system you can imagine stitting behind me besides diff pumps
[17:12:41] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: high vacuum is where you have to actually bake the chamber to remove the absorbed film of moisture or it will ruiin your vacuum
[17:12:44] <SolarNRG> yeah but it's all they sell in this backward 3rd wolrd excuse of a nation that won't give me an atm debit card
[17:12:49] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: wet+dry vac?
[17:12:53] <Sync_> yeah
[17:13:18] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, I read something about that where tiny cracks in your welding can release gas that will mess about with your vacuum
[17:13:37] <Sync_> I have TSPs, iongetter pumps, TMPs, a few scrolls, a few rotaries and a regular sorption pump
[17:14:11] <ganzuul> Why no diffusion pumps?
[17:14:50] <Sync_> they are high maintainance, hot and annoying
[17:14:59] <XXCoder> ganzuul: enjoying site?
[17:15:00] <ganzuul> Cheap!
[17:15:11] <Sync_> not cheaper than turbos in the long run
[17:15:17] <ganzuul> XXCoder: trying to, but there's a lot going on here...
[17:15:21] <XXCoder> lol ok
[17:15:32] <Sync_> and DC407 is not really cheap either
[17:15:44] <Sync_> eh 704
[17:15:44] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: nice
[17:15:46] <Sync_> bleh
[17:16:05] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: I have one nice vacuum pump, and it's not hooked up.
[17:16:06] <ganzuul> You really can't use any other oil>
[17:16:08] <ganzuul> ?
[17:16:19] <SpeedEvil> (0.5 micron edwards dual ring oil pump)
[17:16:44] <Sync_> sure you can, but in reality there are only those
[17:16:54] <Sync_> you can use hydrocarbons
[17:17:01] <Sync_> but those will make your life suck
[17:17:11] <Sync_> if you vent too early you have a huge cleanup job
[17:17:20] <Sync_> or if your temp controller fails
[17:17:24] <Sync_> they also backstream like mad
[17:17:28] <Sync_> so you need a LN2 trap
[17:17:34] <ganzuul> bleh
[17:17:43] <Sync_> easier and cheaper to get a turbo
[17:18:05] <ganzuul> Are they all magnetic bearing?
[17:18:07] <Sync_> SpeedEvil: oil ring pumps are neat because you can pump crap with them to your hearts content
[17:18:11] <Sync_> no
[17:18:14] <Sync_> there is no need
[17:18:22] <Sync_> and bearings are cheap and easy to change on most
[17:18:34] <Sync_> "cheap" ~300€ at most
[17:18:45] <ganzuul> That's not cheap!
[17:19:09] <Sync_> compared to downtime it is
[17:19:33] <ganzuul> Are you doing coatings, like DLC?
[17:19:54] <Sync_> no
[17:20:00] <Sync_> not DLC
[17:20:12] <Sync_> I did TiN
[17:20:26] <Sync_> but mostly thermal evap now with gold or Al
[17:21:45] <Sync_> currently developing an ebeam source so I can evap stuff like SiO2
[17:22:55] <ganzuul> what'd you put that on?
[17:23:19] <Sync_> protective coating for the Al mirrors
[17:24:49] <ganzuul> You're building a death ray. :o
[17:25:07] <Sync_> nah not really
[17:25:24] <ganzuul> Here is my death ray: https://hackaday.io/post/1956
[17:25:29] <ganzuul> Or plans for it, at least
[17:26:31] <ganzuul> My idea is to actuate the mirrors with piezos that they maintain half-wavelength between one pair, and full-wavelength between another.
[17:26:49] <Sync_> okay
[17:27:05] <ganzuul> So the full-wavelength bounces between the half-wavelengths, making for an extremely long optical cavity
[17:27:22] <ganzuul> Meaning very high beam intensity & power
[17:27:40] <Sync_> why not just use a fiber coupled diode array?
[17:27:54] <ganzuul> Not ghetto enough.
[17:28:13] <Sync_> but it'd actually work
[17:28:54] <ganzuul> I do believe my idea would work... I have done quite a bit of reasearch,
[17:29:26] <Sync_> no doubt why it would not work but I think it is too much hassle
[17:29:33] <ganzuul> oic
[17:30:31] <Sync_> I got one of those floating around http://sync-hv.de/~tmp/dilas.jpg
[17:30:44] <ganzuul> Yeah, tons of hazzle, and it's a side-project too which has been distracting me from what I really wanted to use a CO2 laser for.
[17:31:26] <ganzuul> Cool, but transparent to water.
[17:31:45] <Sync_> yeah but I don't want to heat water
[17:31:59] <ganzuul> I do. =)
[17:32:24] * Jymmm hands ganzuul a 1MW tea kettle
[17:32:26] <ganzuul> I think it's possible to build a mist-based holographic projector,
[17:32:33] <fenn> ganzuul: ah so you are using a ventrivertical expander to increase stimulated quantum emission of a biphasic etalon
[17:32:50] <fenn> now it all makes sense
[17:32:57] <Sync_> what has that to do with a laser sinterer for glass and metal?
[17:33:04] <Jymmm> fenn: QUICK... what's 2+2 ???
[17:33:13] <ganzuul> fenn: The language is a bit terse...
[17:33:13] <fenn> a round number?
[17:33:31] <fenn> a square number?
[17:33:35] <ganzuul> Sync_: That's a side-side-project.
[17:33:43] <Jymmm> fenn: BZZZZZZZZZZZZ You lose, but thatnks for playing... it was a line.
[17:34:25] <ganzuul> ANYWAY
[17:34:57] <ganzuul> I need an acousto-optic modulator capable of say... 1MHz.
[17:35:49] <ganzuul> And a MEMS digital mirror which doesn't melt when exposed to tea-kettle levels of laser power.
[17:36:14] <ganzuul> And some really advanced signal processing.
[17:36:21] <Jymmm> Let's see, audio is in KHz, optic is above 1GHz, and you want MHz, yeah, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
[17:36:47] <ganzuul> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odJxJRAxdFU
[17:37:19] <ganzuul> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acousto-optic_modulator
[17:37:48] <ganzuul> If it was possible to switch off a laser as quickly as you can switch it on, there would be no need for this.
[17:38:28] <Jymmm> Fiber switches use a rotating mirror(s)
[17:38:47] <ganzuul> The tagline for this holographic projector, BTW, is 'wet, but haptic'. ;)
[17:38:59] <Sync_> AOMs can do 1MHz easily
[17:39:06] <ganzuul> Sync_: GIMME!
[17:39:33] <ganzuul> 125kHz is the highest I found when researching
[17:40:15] <Sync_> wut
[17:40:22] <ganzuul> truf
[17:40:32] <Jymmm> just get a subwoofer, soem water and mix in some cord starch =)
[17:40:33] <Sync_> they all do like 100MHz
[17:40:39] <Jymmm> corn*
[17:41:13] <ganzuul> Sync_: For visible range lasers...? Because visible range lasers don't vape water.
[17:41:51] <Sync_> NIR should not be an issue
[17:41:58] <ganzuul> huh!
[17:42:10] <ganzuul> Glad to hear that
[17:42:18] <Jymmm> I didn't think NIR was even visiable
[17:42:21] <Sync_> it mostly is just an issue of the AR coating
[17:42:24] <ganzuul> That was the near-impossible bit of the build.
[17:43:09] <Sync_> thorlabs EO-AM-NR damage threshold 4W/mm² at 1064nm with 100MHz bandwidth
[17:44:28] <ganzuul> 1064nm is transparent to water...
[17:44:41] <Sync_> read what I wrote
[17:44:52] <chris_99> could you use AOM to create a laser display? instead of a mirror galvanometer type thing
[17:45:08] <Jymmm> You want to use a fog mist of water as to project a laser on?
[17:45:25] <ganzuul> Jymmm: and shape the mist with ultrasonics.
[17:45:28] <ganzuul> Somehow.
[17:45:31] <XXCoder> theres already projects on that
[17:45:41] <ganzuul> ...waht?
[17:45:50] <XXCoder> hell theres even screens that use falling water drips turn on and off
[17:46:03] <XXCoder> not laser tbut projector but yeah
[17:46:08] <ganzuul> Oh, right, those. Yeah there's nothign holographic about that.
[17:46:21] <ganzuul> Or 3D
[17:46:28] <XXCoder> though if you figure how to shape mist go for it
[17:46:30] <XXCoder> kickstart it
[17:46:41] <XXCoder> if wildly successful, buy me a decent mill
[17:46:46] <SpeedEvil> I wish holograms were real.
[17:46:47] <ganzuul> Well you could use the retroreflective property of water droplets together with somethign like CastAR.
[17:46:54] <SpeedEvil> That is - hollywood ones.
[17:47:09] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: problem is light dont stop
[17:47:12] <SpeedEvil> Where the emitting object does not have to be behind the visible object.
[17:47:25] <ganzuul> SpeedEvil: This crazy scheme of mine is the only way I can think of making that happen.
[17:47:28] <SpeedEvil> the holographically visible
[17:47:34] <SpeedEvil> and yes - magic fog can do it
[17:47:43] <SpeedEvil> for sufficiently magical fog
[17:47:47] <Sync_> well ganzuul 1µ is significantly better than say 500nm
[17:48:22] <Sync_> I think the best with realatively affordable hardware is 1600nm
[17:48:56] <ganzuul> https://www.google.fi/search?q=water+absorption+spectrum&tbm=isch&imgil=eKSyKcLMOqAz4M%253A%253BThG4YIVSGIxqrM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww1.lsbu.ac.uk%25252Fwater%25252Fwater_vibrational_spectrum.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=eKSyKcLMOqAz4M%253A%252CThG4YIVSGIxqrM%252C_&biw=1440&bih=815&usg=__ZAjTX1K10wt4x825t9aX-PmJb-M%3D&ved=0CDEQyjdqFQoTCIL47PH34McCFQGPcgodPgQBoQ&ei=1mvrVYK1JIGeygO-iISICg#imgrc=eKSyKcL
[17:49:02] <ganzuul> MOqAz4M%3A&usg=__ZAjTX1K10wt4x825t9aX-PmJb-M%3D
[17:49:02] <ganzuul> i'ma fix that
[17:49:04] <ganzuul> derp
[17:49:09] <ganzuul> http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/images/water_spectrum_2.gif
[17:49:11] <ganzuul> there
[17:49:12] <XXCoder> link worked lol
[17:49:19] <XXCoder> not specific image
[17:49:24] <ganzuul> :o
[17:49:47] <XXCoder> ganzuul: well if you could figure how to control air by using static waves or something
[17:49:50] <Sync_> that smoothing takes quite a lot of details out
[17:49:56] <XXCoder> like team did for water
[17:50:00] <Sync_> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Absorption_spectrum_of_liquid_water.png
[17:50:06] <XXCoder> they made letters appear on top of water
[17:50:10] <XXCoder> waves that doesnt move
[17:50:10] <Sync_> you want to hit the 1600nm peak
[17:50:35] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: air is basically linear unless you get high intensity enough to cause it to ionise
[17:50:54] <XXCoder> ionize and magnet fields
[17:51:05] <XXCoder> once again math is brain cracking complex
[17:51:05] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: and while ionised air 'holograms' might be cool, you risk setting viewers and ceilings on fire.
[17:51:08] <ganzuul> Sync_: That's a really difficult thing to evaluate. Maybe you're right.
[17:51:27] <Sync_> it is not going to get better and or cheaper
[17:51:36] <chris_99> i guess you've seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWi10YVmfE
[17:51:41] <XXCoder> other method uses mirror spinning around and over very rapidly
[17:51:51] <XXCoder> must be enclosed as well duh lol
[17:51:59] <XXCoder> *because
[17:52:17] <XXCoder> chris_99: that is closest yeah forgot about it
[17:52:52] <ganzuul> chris_99: I haven't! that's so cool!
[17:53:28] <chris_99> theres also a bigger version
[17:53:47] <chris_99> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfVS-npfVuY
[17:53:58] <ganzuul> With localized plasma speakers like that it could be really easy to generate those standing acoustic waves as per the expanded styroplast example.
[17:56:35] <Sync_> they do some pretty cool stuff
[17:56:41] <ganzuul> I figure that after you got the mist squeezed out of the water, you could heat the droplets, maybe make them explode.
[17:56:56] <ganzuul> So you'd get your speaker that way.
[17:57:13] <ganzuul> Of course that way you could also generate pressure which is tactile.
[17:57:34] <XXCoder> chris_99: holy shit thats way too active video
[17:57:39] <XXCoder> its unwatchable to me
[17:58:24] <chris_99> way too active? you mean the presenters?
[17:58:25] <ganzuul> OH!
[17:58:35] <XXCoder> chris_99: video effects
[17:58:39] <chris_99> ah yeah
[17:58:39] <XXCoder> as well as all that shaking
[17:58:58] <ganzuul> And CO2 lasers won't burn off your retina. They'll just cauterize the top layer of your eyeball
[18:00:56] <fenn> seems easier to just use piezo speakers/transducers to do the haptics separately
[18:01:40] <fenn> you already have piezo drivers
[18:02:03] <ganzuul> R2-D2's projection of Princess Leia is the lofty goal I have.
[18:02:31] <fenn> sure but you're trying to make it out of smoke and mirrors but you forgot to use magic
[18:02:53] <ganzuul> DSP doesn't count as magic?
[18:03:13] <XXCoder> ganzuul: ya know
[18:03:23] <XXCoder> the star wars hologram uses that lighyt cone
[18:03:39] <XXCoder> what if it was also method to stop light, using dust or something
[18:03:59] <XXCoder> control field that must be anchored to machine that controls it
[18:04:00] <fenn> it just has to appear real to the observers, not actually emit sound from the apparent source of sound (princess leia doesn't actually need to vibrate)
[18:04:40] <ganzuul> But you could do exactly that.
[18:04:53] <ganzuul> Have talking mist.
[18:05:29] <ganzuul> Of course,
[18:05:40] <ganzuul> all these parts could be broken off and tested separately.
[18:05:49] <fenn> all the plasma speakers i've seen had terrible audio quality; i'm skeptical that you could achieve a high enough signal to noise ratio to do standing wave ultrasonic haptics
[18:06:41] <ganzuul> fenn: Me too. I'm just glad I have made myself understood! \o/
[18:06:45] <fenn> also you'd get a sunburn from the plasma
[18:06:53] <ganzuul> mmh
[18:07:08] <ganzuul> Heating water molecules to make them expand might be more fruitful.
[18:07:14] <ganzuul> derp
[18:07:17] <ganzuul> water droplets
[18:09:00] <ganzuul> One super-advanced idea I have is to use the eigenmodes of vibrating water droplets to make prisms...
[18:09:04] <fenn> you could maybe shake a fog of dielectric particles around with laser tweezers
[18:09:24] <ganzuul> hmm
[18:09:36] <fenn> i don't know what sort of power levels would be required for that
[18:10:00] <XXCoder> to me the most basic hologram concept would be this - somehow you need to send stream of light and it hits spots and it scatters like object would do
[18:10:08] <XXCoder> so it looks like something
[18:10:18] <ganzuul> The size of water droplets in mist do roughly correspond with the spectrum of CO2 lasers. Possible.
[18:10:58] <ganzuul> XXCoder: I agree.
[18:11:32] <XXCoder> or in least form something in such way room light scatters off it like real object
[18:11:35] <ganzuul> Are you familiar with CastAR?
[18:12:19] <ganzuul> http://castar.com/
[18:12:32] * furrywolf waits for an OLED panel with enough resolution to instantly reproduce an interference pattern
[18:12:48] <XXCoder> interesting
[18:13:22] <ganzuul> So yeah, magic mist + castar might be convincing enough for a start.
[18:14:10] <XXCoder> or just invent 4d projector
[18:14:16] <XXCoder> its flat screen would be a 3d volume
[18:14:31] <XXCoder> too bad we cant access 4th dimension lol
[18:14:58] <ganzuul> Quantum theory lets information travel back in time.
[18:15:03] <XXCoder> no
[18:15:09] <XXCoder> 4th dimension is not time
[18:15:25] <ganzuul> A 4th spatial dimension?
[18:15:29] <XXCoder> its a direction that is 90 degrees to all X, Y, Z
[18:15:48] <XXCoder> indeed
[18:15:54] <ganzuul> I only know about those things as tensors.
[18:15:57] <XXCoder> picture this
[18:16:05] <XXCoder> you draw a square
[18:16:07] <XXCoder> that is 2d
[18:16:12] <XXCoder> you draw it up into z
[18:16:17] <XXCoder> it becomes a cube
[18:16:29] <XXCoder> you now draw it out in lets call it w
[18:16:33] <XXCoder> it becomes a hubecube
[18:16:38] <XXCoder> hypercube
[18:16:47] <ganzuul> Odd and even number dimensions are very different. 4D has more in common with 2D than with 3D.
[18:17:07] <fenn> looking at my own notebook page on the subject of 3d projection displays... i have an inkjet head wedged between two laminar flow nozzles, and a laser projecting at the 2d sheet from a slight angle. the positions and velocities of the droplets are known so you don't waste too much laser power illuminating empty air, and the viewer only ever sees laser light scattered from the intended droplets
[18:17:17] <XXCoder> really? interesting. never went to tensor stuff
[18:17:24] <ganzuul> The mathematics gets really deeply rooted in the fundamnental.
[18:17:29] <ganzuul> ~ fundamentals
[18:17:42] <XXCoder> though its interesting concept. you can get strange stuff like cylinder with sphere cross sections
[18:17:45] <ganzuul> I'ma see if I can remember the name...
[18:17:58] <XXCoder> imange the uses for milling
[18:18:37] <furrywolf> I can imagine the math, but I can't imagine any actual physical embodiment of said math. thus, it's not very useful. :P
[18:18:49] * furrywolf will sticks to physics instead of math
[18:19:11] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah. would be truly amazing if someone found a way and made 4d cnc
[18:19:17] <XXCoder> imange the code and tooling lol
[18:19:47] <furrywolf> I can't imagine the tooling, because I can't imagine any way it could exist. :P
[18:19:55] <XXCoder> parts of 4d cnc would disappear and appear as it moved out and in our 3d space
[18:20:06] <ganzuul> XXCoder: ah, Galois theory. The work that lead up to it makes the even/odd dimension thing much clearer than actual galois theory.
[18:20:15] <XXCoder> it could mill out interior of metal cube without making any external hole
[18:22:05] <fenn> it could scan your brain at atomic resolution
[18:22:22] <fenn> call me when you have a 4d cnc...
[18:22:36] <XXCoder> fenn: 4d camera would be able to take 3d pictures
[18:22:50] <XXCoder> which then can be analyized lol
[18:22:53] <fenn> that already exists as "time of flight photography"
[18:23:13] <ganzuul> XXCoder: If you're interested in a terse derivation of these ideas; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxNq-hQwvn0
[18:23:43] <furrywolf> ... I haven't clicked that yet. please tell me it's not a youtube video discussing math.
[18:23:44] <XXCoder> too bad not captioned
[18:23:51] <XXCoder> classroom fur
[18:23:58] <XXCoder> discussing Galois theory
[18:24:21] <chris_99> i was wondering if you could use kinect ToF camera for lidar, could that work you think fenn?
[18:25:24] <furrywolf> why in any of the four or more dimensions would I fucking want a VIDEO about MATH? That's an even worse use of video than most of the things video is used for!
[18:25:59] <XXCoder> lol
[18:26:22] <fenn> chris_99: apples and oranges
[18:26:50] <chris_99> how so?
[18:27:12] * furrywolf does not understand the obsession with video
[18:27:29] <furrywolf> why would you ever want to listen to someone talk rather than just read the same things?
[18:27:44] <ganzuul> furrywolf: To re-live the tense and exciting moments of university-level lectures, of course!
[18:28:09] <ganzuul> furrywolf: My eyes are getting tired from reading a lot.
[18:28:21] <furrywolf> reading is much faster than talking, and can be skimmed, instantly read forwards or backwards, searched, etc, etc...
[18:28:22] <XXCoder> ganzuul: own a ebook?
[18:28:55] <ganzuul> furrywolf: Video makes people compress their thoughts a lot.
[18:28:58] <XXCoder> ebook reader that is, eink
[18:29:27] <furrywolf> no, video does the exact opposite. it results in useless sidetracks, uhhs, umms, etc.
[18:29:44] <furrywolf> writing it down lets you go back and figure out how to say it better.
[18:29:56] <fenn> chris_99: well it's all structured light scanning in some sense, a laser beam is a projected dot, a pulse type time of flight camera is a projected square (or large circle or whatever) and iirc the recent kinects use a simple binary tree pattern
[18:30:10] <chris_99> nope
[18:30:13] <chris_99> they're ToF
[18:30:22] <chris_99> aren't they?
[18:30:24] <ganzuul> fenn: Could you rephrase 'inkjet head wedged between two laminar flow nozzles"? The system is a bit opaque...
[18:30:38] <furrywolf> I always thought the kinect was structured light, but I've never owned or used one.
[18:30:43] <fenn> i might be confusing kinect and intel realsense
[18:30:46] <chris_99> yeah
[18:30:53] <chris_99> the realsense is structured light
[18:31:14] <fenn> well anyway you have to project something so might as well make it a useful pattern
[18:31:17] <ganzuul> XXCoder: I might have to invest in one of those...
[18:31:36] <XXCoder> if you like reading ebooks you should
[18:31:42] <XXCoder> its worlds of difference.
[18:33:05] <furrywolf> "Microsoft Kinect uses a pattern of projected infrared points to generate a dense 3D...." yeah, structured light.
[18:33:08] <chris_99> nope
[18:33:12] <ganzuul> furrywolf: Some people work well on video. Others are impossible.
[18:33:14] <chris_99> look at the later one furrywolf
[18:33:23] <fenn> ganzuul: you want to have a free floating surface to project onto/scatter light, and it's hard to get a flat surface in free air because of turbulence. the two nozzles are like guides that keep the droplets moving in a straight line away from the inkjet nozzle
[18:34:26] <furrywolf> chris_99: I'm looking at the only one wikipedia says exists.
[18:34:31] <ganzuul> oic
[18:34:33] <chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect#Version_2
[18:34:38] <fenn> ganzuul: you could just use bigger droplets and let gravity do the work of pulling them down
[18:34:44] <fenn> but that's messy
[18:34:49] <fenn> water everywhere
[18:35:06] <chris_99> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect_for_Xbox_One even
[18:35:20] <ganzuul> Oh right, laminar flow of air.
[18:35:23] <furrywolf> "based on the same core technology"
[18:35:37] <chris_99> furrywolf, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect_for_Xbox_One
[18:35:46] <fenn> i'm thinking either glycol like in laser fog machines, or something like mothballs (naphthalene) that sublimates and doesn't leave any residue
[18:35:49] <furrywolf> brb, someone here
[18:35:51] <chris_99> 'The device features a 512x424 pixel time-of-flight camera'
[18:36:59] <ganzuul> fenn: Because of water evaporation?
[18:37:02] <fenn> yes
[18:37:07] <ganzuul> mmh
[18:37:28] <ganzuul> Well it can't be totally stupid if we're both thinking in the same lines.
[18:37:59] <fenn> the next two pages in the notebook are insane ramblings about hexagonal counting systems
[18:38:06] <ganzuul> lol
[18:42:05] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/lvtfD_rJ2hE?t=2m58s whats the most efficient and lowest cost actuator for this?
[18:44:09] <fenn> solenoid?
[18:45:18] <fenn> gravity return and closed loop with linear encoder or capacitive position sensor
[18:45:42] <fenn> or you could get fancy and add a spring and measure the resistance of the spring
[18:47:08] <fenn> (springs are strain gauges) "As the object is deformed, the foil is deformed, causing its electrical resistance to change. This resistance change, usually measured using a Wheatstone bridge, is related to the strain by the quantity known as the gauge factor."
[18:48:05] <fenn> wind springs out of thermocouple wire
[18:51:41] <fenn> or you could go off into wacky microfluidic multiplexing land
[18:52:49] <fenn> i like the ultrasonic standing wave idea better - much simpler
[18:54:03] <fenn> the array of moving blocks will never be able to feel smooth
[18:56:48] <fenn> ganzuul: http://41.media.tumblr.com/bb11c3e2112c1fafb49516a30c13559a/tumblr_mxpxb1eSqT1rl195mo1_1280.jpg "workstation" by john wallin
[18:57:24] <XXCoder> fenn: that is other possible way
[18:57:27] <XXCoder> inference pattern
[18:58:26] <PetefromTn_> wow that is a COOL painting
[18:58:31] <fenn> we have (had) another finnish wallin in here that liked to move tiny things around with laser tweezers...
[18:58:44] <ganzuul> fenn: way cool :o
[18:59:12] <ganzuul> hmm
[18:59:44] * fenn drags self into kitchen for sustenance
[19:00:24] <ganzuul> reminds me I need to also not turn into a bag of bones
[19:04:46] <PetefromTn_> Just found a local family owned winery called Blue Goose and it is like ten minutes from my house...
[19:04:53] <Tom_itx> mad scientist lair
[19:05:54] <PetefromTn_> we bought two bottles of red one was called Vinnie's special red and Rosie's Rasberry. Vinnie is a Cow apparently hehe
[19:06:05] <PetefromTn_> overall not bad
[19:06:14] <PetefromTn_> had some with dinner tonight
[19:06:31] <PetefromTn_> just a public service announcement ;)
[19:12:29] <Tom_itx> so you're asking for a little more leeway here tonight?
[19:12:55] <PetefromTn_> after all the BS I have read on here lately I was under the impression that was not an issue ;)
[19:13:02] <Tom_itx> hah
[19:13:15] <Tom_itx> probably not since the channel doesn't seem to be moderated much
[19:14:00] <PetefromTn_> I like a good wine tho... sippin' and chillin' is good for the soul methinks
[19:14:11] <Tom_itx> seems they're warming up to release 2.7 within hrs
[19:14:23] <Tom_itx> never cared much for wine myself
[19:14:36] <PetefromTn_> rumor has it that it is good for your heart too apparenlty....thus the public service announcement
[19:14:55] <Tom_itx> i hear it's good for something but not sure what
[19:15:25] <Tom_itx> we've got a winery closeby but i've never visited
[19:15:27] <PetefromTn_> I can't stand beer and the hard stuff is too much so wine it is!
[19:16:32] <Tom_itx> you're not about a 40oz in a brown bag??
[19:17:05] <PetefromTn_> no this came in a pretty box actually.... which geese all over it hehe
[19:17:21] <fenn> is this the virtual new-release party
[19:17:29] <Tom_itx> apparently
[19:17:35] <fenn> where's the countdown clock
[19:17:38] <Tom_itx> grab a party hat
[19:17:52] <PetefromTn_> I'll drink to that!
[19:18:20] <Tom_itx> http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/0000.checkin/builds/3432
[19:19:14] <fenn> changelog compile, check, VERSION is GO for launch, repeat GO for launch
[19:19:16] <Tom_itx> clock(s)
[19:19:53] <PetefromTn_> T minus oh who the hell knows mehehe
[19:49:25] <PetefromTn_> http://www.newslinq.com/manned-aerial-drone/ pretty cool
[20:05:27] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Gonna make one?
[20:05:41] <SpeedEvil> Very uncool - members of the public nearby.
[20:05:58] <SpeedEvil> Also, it's highly illegal, which is a seperate thing.
[20:06:04] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: The public came to him, not him to public!
[20:07:11] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: I'm somewhat sure hes not in usa.
[20:07:20] <SpeedEvil> That is his fault - you don't get to expose random people that don't understand the risks to risky stuff. 'Attractive nusciance'
[20:07:35] <SpeedEvil> yes - UK - as I understand it - and I happen to have read the air navigation regulations.
[20:08:26] <SpeedEvil> You can in principle make a not illlegal thing like that in the UK, but not like that.
[20:08:26] <XXCoder> ok
[20:09:02] <PetefromTn_> aw man is that all you guys can come up with.... it's dangerous and illegal? jeez....
[20:09:03] <Jymmm> HEy lets make everything illegal that should make SpeedEvil happy as all hell
[20:09:13] <XXCoder> I definitely wouldnt vb making unproven flights in area like that
[20:09:24] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: No, just SpeedEvil with his panties in a bunch
[20:09:42] <SpeedEvil> The regulations are very specific. A craft which takes off weighing under 7kg is an 'unmanned small aircraft'. You have this take off, and then winch up more motors, airframe, and a seat (without landing) then winch up a pilot, and they can legally fly it as a small unmanned ariel vehicle.
[20:10:08] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: Were you the inspiration for the phrase GET OFF MY LAWN by chance?
[20:10:10] <SpeedEvil> As the pilot is then within 70m of the unmanned craft, they can then fly it anywhere.
[20:10:42] <SpeedEvil> The problem is 'cool' stuff like this results in knee-jerk regulations which restrict sane people.
[20:11:20] <PetefromTn_> hell it is dangerous to just drive to the store LOL
[20:11:59] <Jymmm> NOTHING is going to prevent "knee jerk" reactions. Look at BM, it's in the middle of the fucking desert/nowhere, now it's all regulaed as hell
[20:14:37] <Jymmm> pcw_home: PCW HEy, you around?
[20:17:46] <renesis> i think its pizza time
[20:17:59] <Jymmm> renesis: ..and beer?
[20:18:14] <renesis> well im trying to avoid shopping and they dont deliver beer
[20:18:20] <renesis> i guess i could ride bike to beer
[20:18:28] <Jymmm> renesis: Those bastards!!!
[20:19:00] <Jymmm> Anyone use 18650's ?
[20:19:07] <renesis> i maybe go to a friends later all he has is >8% beer
[20:19:09] <renesis> ya
[20:19:26] <renesis> i kind of want to test capacity on all mine, kinda old except a couple of them
[20:19:54] <Jymmm> renesis: Today only w/ promo code $14.99, limit 2 http://www.frys.com/product/7222093?site=72premail090515
[20:20:40] <renesis> whats promo code?
[20:20:48] <renesis> shows up as $30 here
[20:20:58] <Jymmm> renesis: signup for promo code emails
[20:21:49] <Jymmm> renesis: You will get an instant promo code, but not sure if that's a daily or weekly code or good for both
[20:24:52] <Jymmm> renesis: http://i.imgur.com/p07glzB.png
[20:25:00] <renesis> omg must login to promo code
[20:25:03] <renesis> jymmm: thanks!
[20:25:54] <fenn> i'm a fan of 18650's but i don't see the point of paying 30x for a 50% increase in capacity over new old stock laptop batteries
[20:25:56] <Jymmm> renesis: I have like three of them already, car and home charger plus two batteries for $15 and NAME BRAND, not china specials
[20:26:33] <Jymmm> renesis: I mean it comes with BOTH, 12C and 110V cords
[20:26:38] <Jymmm> 12V*
[20:27:07] <Jymmm> fenn: I like protected cells for certain things
[20:28:21] <renesis> it says login to use promo code but im logged in wtf
[20:29:53] <renesis> oh i have to call them my promo code is some sort of instant one for signing up
[20:30:25] <fenn> anyone get the fortal "hobby box" from ebay seller scottkrez? is it the same sort of shapes as the old "mousebar" assortment?
[20:30:41] <fenn> aluminum blocks and plates
[20:31:09] <fenn> they used to let you pick the general theme of blocks or plates
[20:31:46] <fenn> this one doesn't even show a picture so it's kind of an unknown
[20:34:41] * XXCoder facepalms on https://boingboing.net/2015/09/04/china-tv-news-confuses-fleshli.html
[20:35:21] <renesis> old
[20:35:29] <XXCoder> not to me
[20:37:16] <malcom2073> And me, bwahaha
[21:11:04] <furrywolf> just went with someone and tried a local steakhouse that recently opened... it was an excellent steak, but HOLY FUCK it was expensive. Given the choice between a steak or a mesa board, I'm not heading back.
[21:12:54] <XXCoder> wow
[21:13:13] <XXCoder> someone opened a expensive steak house in middle of job desert?
[21:13:34] <malcom2073> Lol
[21:14:04] <furrywolf> XXCoder: growers have a lot of disposable income.
[21:14:10] <XXCoder> ah
[21:15:16] <XXCoder> lol http://cubiclebot.com/videos/highway-rave/
[21:16:07] <malcom2073> Awesome
[21:16:14] <furrywolf> going there twice would buy a 7i76e with some leftover for cables...
[21:16:35] <malcom2073> Haha nice, *that* kind of a steakhouse
[21:20:25] <furrywolf> it was the best steak I've had, but it's kinda hard to enjoy it when you're thinking about how many dollars each bite costs.
[21:20:54] <XXCoder> Dpb
[21:21:03] <XXCoder> $2 Dpb is pricy
[21:21:31] <malcom2073> lol
[21:22:51] <furrywolf> lol
[21:23:49] <malcom2073> I think I'm gonna buy a 7i77, and use my dads 5i25, hope I don't fry it and give this a shot. As cool as these step/dir servo drives are, I'm getting nowhere tuning them
[21:25:22] <Tom_itx> yay! 2.7.0 installed
[21:25:53] <malcom2073> Except they're out of stock, doh
[21:26:44] <furrywolf> they're out of stock on a lot of things. pcw is having minion supply issues.
[21:27:13] <malcom2073> The firmware is open source, are the board designs?
[21:27:16] <Tom_itx> he likely has some but hasn't updated the webpage yet
[21:27:28] <Tom_itx> malcom2073, i doubt it
[21:36:32] <Jymmm> renesis: Yeah, no clue on the signup promo code thing.
[21:36:41] <Jymmm> furrywolf: how much was the steak?
[21:38:12] <Jymmm> Does anyone know how close underground electrical can come to gas line?
[21:38:32] <Jymmm> Can they cross? Run parallel?
[21:39:25] <renesis> do not cross the streams
[21:40:24] <Jymmm> Crud
[21:45:16] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, nobody has lived to tell just how close
[21:46:00] <XXCoder> lol https://i.chzbgr.com/full/6442896640/h4459369A/
[21:46:06] <XXCoder> it starts off aww then...
[21:46:29] <Jymmm> The panel is just too tight to run 4c of 12ga. Teh pole in the front has a dual 20A breaker (220V) that goes to water pump. I could do the same on the rear pole instead of mucking with the panel =)
[21:46:33] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: lol
[21:47:52] <Jymmm> XXCoder: Um... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780622/
[21:48:05] <XXCoder> lol
[21:48:18] <Jymmm> XXCoder: (It's a cult classic, you gotta see it at least once)
[21:49:14] <furrywolf> "Opening Weekend:
[21:49:15] <furrywolf> $36,530"
[21:49:19] <XXCoder> did you see this one? https://boingboing.net/2015/09/04/china-tv-news-confuses-fleshli.html
[21:50:23] <Jymmm> XXCoder: watcht eh trailer =)
[21:51:05] <furrywolf> ... what the hell is that? lol
[21:51:15] * furrywolf has lots of toys, and that doesn't look like a toy
[21:51:43] <XXCoder> its not female toy
[21:52:44] <furrywolf> I've heard of Teeth, but never seen it.
[21:52:48] <furrywolf> I'm not much of a movie fan.
[21:53:20] <Jymmm> furrywolf: If you have access to it, watch it. If not don't bother.
[21:53:30] <XXCoder> trailer is funny
[21:54:03] <Jymmm> furrywolf: After the first 30m, best to jsut stop at that point.
[21:55:10] <furrywolf> lol
[21:55:42] <Jymmm> Hmmm, sub panels are cheaper than I thought they would be
[21:56:11] <XXCoder> I dont understand one thing though
[21:56:23] <Jymmm> XXCoder: whats that?
[21:56:38] <XXCoder> one end of that "plant" is vague, but other is clearly fake lady parts. havent any of them seen vagina?
[21:57:06] * furrywolf only saw one end on that link
[21:57:18] <XXCoder> you havent watched videp
[21:57:32] <Jymmm> XXCoder: In the movie... they kinda imply the "teeth" are not on the surface, but just inside.
[21:57:53] <furrywolf> oh, it has a video? then why does it also have an animation?
[21:58:06] <XXCoder> dunno they always do it
[21:58:18] <XXCoder> boingboing dont do it as often as ios9 does
[22:00:59] * furrywolf doesn't get video sites or the people who use them
[22:01:12] <XXCoder> boingboing usually dont do videos.
[22:01:37] <XXCoder> if it was all videos I'd have not favorited it. videos is largely useless if used to talk about stuff
[22:01:45] <XXCoder> because it is almost never captioned.
[22:08:03] <Jymmm> Is this direct burial by chance, or will it specifically state that? http://www.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cable-Systems-1-2-in-x-100-ft-Non-Metallic-Liquidtight-Conduit-6002-30-00/202286688?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-202286718-_-202286688-_-N
[22:08:56] <XXCoder> " Product Depth (in.) 17.5 "
[22:09:01] <XXCoder> not too sure what that means
[22:09:15] <Jymmm> XXCoder: home deopt state the size of the packaging
[22:09:19] <XXCoder> ahh
[22:10:03] <XXCoder> UL- and CSA safety listed <-- any soil bury requirement for those safety ratings?
[22:10:40] <renesis> i would guess it depends on the standard which they dont specifically list
[22:11:13] * furrywolf points Jymmm to the questions and answers section on home despot's page, particularly the one asking about direct burial
[22:11:27] <Tom_itx> Jymmm http://www.irrigation.org/uploadedFiles/Certification/National%20Electric%20Code.pdf
[22:11:38] <furrywolf> Yes, this product is approved for outdoor applications including direct burial and is also rated for concrete embedment.
[22:11:38] <furrywolf> You can view our catalog online at:
[22:11:39] <furrywolf> http://www.afcweb.com/pdf_2011/p31_lt_ul_lfnc_b.pdf
[22:12:18] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I had adblock enabled, which blocks Q&A and reviews. thanks
[22:12:24] <XXCoder> love noscript. apparently that site uses 'live person' which is heck annoying
[22:12:51] <renesis> is live person the chat popup with the cute girl or black guy image?
[22:12:55] <furrywolf> there's something wrong with your adblocker's filters, then.
[22:13:12] <furrywolf> the filters should only block, you know, ads. :P
[22:13:18] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Not at all, I have them setup very agressively
[22:13:33] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Dont load 3rd party content, etc
[22:13:40] * furrywolf agressively determines the baby to be part of the bathwater
[22:13:42] <XXCoder> heh not agressive compared to my noscript. noscript means no script is allowed to run. period.
[22:13:51] <XXCoder> I can permit certain domains
[22:14:12] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, what brouser?
[22:14:19] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: FF
[22:14:36] <XXCoder> FF means fuck firefox ;) (I use FF too)
[22:15:16] <Jymmm> I have java compeltely disabled, Flash is upon request only and whitelisted as I trust.
[22:15:43] <XXCoder> flash is ask, while java is disabled here
[22:16:00] <Jymmm> redirect (304's) are limited to 3
[22:16:23] <XXCoder> noscript stops any redirect that uses script
[22:16:28] <Jymmm> and a bunch of wildcard filters
[22:16:58] <Jymmm> half of google is blocked
[22:19:37] <Jymmm> This may not be as bad as I thought. I'll have to open the pole as see what's needed to add a new branch and breaker, then I can just run a subpanel in the garage. Not sure how big a circuit I should install though
[22:19:54] <XXCoder> heh I need a garage
[22:20:11] <Jymmm> XXCoder: I highly recommend them
[22:20:14] <Jymmm> ;)
[22:20:15] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, iirc i ran 60A
[22:20:17] <XXCoder> yeah
[22:20:28] <XXCoder> wonder if theres places where I can get scrap wood
[22:20:30] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: 10ga?
[22:20:32] <XXCoder> buidl cheap one
[22:20:38] <Tom_itx> no, bigger
[22:20:43] <Jymmm> XXCoder: there are portable garges
[22:20:47] <Tom_itx> forget exactly what it was
[22:20:59] <XXCoder> made from plastic and such?
[22:21:01] <Tom_itx> maybe 6?
[22:21:06] <XXCoder> forgot how much money those are?
[22:21:41] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: OH, hmmm. I alredy have 12ga THHN, maybe I should just be happy that I'll have two 20A 110V circuits (220V split)
[22:22:26] <XXCoder> whoa. don't buy jeep, seems they fucked up Park mode. basically... it don't. jeeps just roll off after shifted to Park
[22:22:40] <XXCoder> 408,000 jeep will be recalled maybe
[22:22:43] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, yeah maybe so
[22:22:52] <Jymmm> XXCoder: Old news, Chrysler vehicles in general do that
[22:23:08] <XXCoder> I'm catching up some news sites
[22:23:13] <Jymmm> ah
[22:23:23] <XXCoder> consumerist
[22:24:46] <Jymmm> Whats the startup on a mid sized compressor?
[22:25:33] <Tom_itx> can't recall what i put on my 5hp for a breaker
[22:25:42] <Tom_itx> iirc it was 10Ga wire
[22:26:00] <XXCoder> Jymmm: cant do portable garage around here, would be broken in and stolen stuff
[22:26:08] <XXCoder> I want to store machine and stuff
[22:26:13] <Jymmm> XXCoder: Ah,, 20ft container?
[22:26:21] <XXCoder> cant be done here
[22:26:28] <XXCoder> very busy area lol
[22:26:51] <XXCoder> though I am considering building something that can be knocked down when moving out
[22:27:06] <Jymmm> XXCoder: Armed Poodles?
[22:27:10] <XXCoder> lol
[22:27:32] * furrywolf decides Jymmm must not want the rest of the file
[22:27:53] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I tried to accept the resend, but it's not accepting
[22:28:11] <Jymmm> "operation timeout"
[22:28:51] <Jymmm> furrywolf: running...
[22:29:08] <Jymmm> furrywolf: ty btw
[22:29:47] * furrywolf was hoping not to send the entire thing over again, but resend and resume apparantly don't work
[22:30:22] * Jymmm nods
[22:35:16] <furrywolf> hrmm, did it finish or not?
[22:35:56] <furrywolf> bitchx wasn't quite sure. this could well be because bitchx sucks.
[22:36:27] <furrywolf> someone really needs to write a non-garbage irc client. it's really sad that I'm still using bitchx.
[22:38:20] <XXCoder> hexchat is pretty decent
[22:39:37] <furrywolf> yeah, that looks like not what I want at all.
[22:39:43] <furrywolf> lol
[22:39:59] <XXCoder> its simple and works
[22:40:07] <furrywolf> it's X, and it's python.
[22:40:39] <furrywolf> or worse, perl
[22:41:35] <Jymmm> furrywolf: got it, thanks. FYI you can 50GB for free for storage of binaries and you can share files or folders with others even... https://mega.nz/
[22:42:22] <furrywolf> I can also upload stuff to my webserver. :P
[22:42:35] <furrywolf> and, you know, NOT support some random company spewing ads.
[22:42:36] <Jymmm> furrywolf: that too =)
[22:42:59] <furrywolf> also, that url doesn't work. lol
[22:43:02] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Oh it's not random, it's the guy that got busted by the feds =)
[22:43:25] <furrywolf> it's a completely blank page.
[22:43:42] <Jymmm> furrywolf: it's valid here
[22:43:53] <XXCoder> scripts needed
[22:43:57] <furrywolf> I have scripts.
[22:44:02] <XXCoder> I had to enable 2 domains for it to appear
[22:44:02] <furrywolf> it's still a completely blank page.
[22:44:35] <furrywolf> the only blocker I have is adblock plus, with the default filters. so unless the entire page is an ad, it's blank. :P
[22:45:13] <XXCoder> well I dont use adblock
[22:45:19] <Jymmm> furrywolf: This is what I see: http://i.imgur.com/fwuD4HQ.png
[22:45:42] * furrywolf sees a plain white page with no content
[22:46:13] <XXCoder> right click and see source
[22:46:19] <XXCoder> is it empty or?
[22:46:49] <Jymmm> it uses a lot of JS, but fast
[22:46:57] <furrywolf> it's not empty, it's a script, and a couple empty divs.
[22:47:04] <furrywolf> and a display:none link.
[22:48:03] <PetefromTn_> damn more talk about schtuff I don't understand :(
[22:48:30] <XXCoder> your sucky isp probably blocking it
[22:48:48] <furrywolf> if my isp is blocking anything as poorly designed as that site, it's probably a good thing. :P
[22:48:53] <furrywolf> there's some serious incompetence there.
[22:48:53] <XXCoder> it uses two domains
[22:49:07] <XXCoder> mega.nz and mega.co.nz
[22:49:14] <XXCoder> adblock is probably blocking latter
[22:49:20] <furrywolf> also, my browsing is over a tunnel to my linode, just to keep my isp from fucking with pages, because I was sick of that.
[22:50:19] <furrywolf> the script on that page is 1848 lines.
[22:50:35] <furrywolf> a non-trivial portion of which are attempting to load other scripts
[22:51:39] * furrywolf does not understand why people write so much code to make things WORSE.
[22:51:48] <furrywolf> why the fuck would you generate your entire website with javascript?
[22:52:04] <XXCoder> dont ask me I'm not web monkey
[22:53:10] <furrywolf> I think monkeys are too intelligent to write pages like that.
[22:53:18] <XXCoder> lol
[22:53:18] <furrywolf> More like web parrot or something...
[22:55:40] <furrywolf> googling suggestions some seriously brain-damaged design ideas, like the point of loading the entire site with javascript to be fake encryption...
[22:55:44] <renesis> monkeys are not very good at the internet
[22:57:44] <XXCoder> all javascript sites is annoying but not as bad as million domains scripts!
[22:57:50] <XXCoder> worse I ever saw had over 40
[22:57:55] * furrywolf decides not to waste any more time trying to figure out why it doesn't work, not having any interest in using it in the first place
[22:58:03] <XXCoder> and not many related domains like different subdomains either
[22:59:19] <furrywolf> my general attitude is anyone who writes such an incompetently designed site is probably not something I want to use any service from anyway.
[23:00:23] <furrywolf> it's like why you don't attempt to buy stolen goods. the seller is just as likely to rip you off as the last guy.
[23:01:56] <furrywolf> if they demonstrate themselves to be so incompetent they can't even make the main page on their site in a sane fashion, the rest of it will be even worse. :)
[23:02:54] <SpeedEvil> There is one site I've seen where a javascript site probably makes sense. A video streaming site, where performers stream information is sent to the browser in a small datasttream, rather than as a massive expanded html page listing all the performers.
[23:02:56] <XXCoder> maybe site simply refuse to work though proxy
[23:03:08] <SpeedEvil> Many, many are just simply being retarded.
[23:03:32] <SpeedEvil> nasa.gov makes me sad
[23:03:54] <furrywolf> .gov (sites and otherwise) generally makes me sad.
[23:04:07] <furrywolf> I suspect the next presidential election will make me sad too.
[23:04:16] <SpeedEvil> yeah - well - nasa.gov ~6 months ago used to be actually functional websites
[23:04:41] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: yeah - that's not looking promising.
[23:04:46] <renesis> furrywolf: you dont like bernie!?
[23:04:51] <renesis> i like bernie!
[23:05:20] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I wish I could say we've got a functional, dynamic leader in the UK, but he's one of the several people I would like to feed into a wood chipper.
[23:05:49] <SpeedEvil> In case anyone is monitoring this, I totally mean that.
[23:06:11] * furrywolf generally ignores canidates with zero chance of being elected
[23:08:09] <furrywolf> he's also anti-2nd-ammendment.
[23:08:33] <XXCoder> many people on both sides like bernie
[23:08:40] <XXCoder> he isnt owned by rich people
[23:09:07] <XXCoder> in fact, his back shows no sign of being bent forward too much from being fucked from behind by companies.
[23:09:21] <SpeedEvil> He is unfortunately old.
[23:09:32] <XXCoder> there was older presidents
[23:09:36] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[23:09:41] <SpeedEvil> But 77 is a hell of an age.
[23:09:43] <furrywolf> I'm not going to vote for anyone who wants to take your guns away. heh.
[23:09:59] <SpeedEvil> For a hugely stressfull job
[23:10:07] <XXCoder> I rather have one with one negative, than one with... many.
[23:10:10] <XXCoder> like trump
[23:10:50] <SpeedEvil> Trump has so many negatives he goes right around to positive again.
[23:10:52] <SpeedEvil> (sort-of)
[23:11:02] <XXCoder> then he goes back to negative
[23:12:09] <furrywolf> all the republican canidates this time are so awful they'll probably doom themselves by running any of them.
[23:12:38] <XXCoder> I wonder where the clown car is. it's lonely without all that clowns.
[23:13:25] <SpeedEvil> Ted Cruz is the only one I've come up against - from his service on the space science policy committee
[23:13:30] <SpeedEvil> he did not impress.
[23:15:39] * furrywolf wants a libertarian
[23:16:43] <SpeedEvil> hah. I was going to say 'one of them is a neurosurgeon' - but ...
[23:16:56] <SpeedEvil> ' "Marriage is between a man and a woman. No group, be they gays, be they NAMBLA, be they people who believe in bestiality, it doesn't matter what they are. They don't get to change the definition
[23:17:13] <XXCoder> libertarian: cut goverment services and give money to rich
[23:17:15] <furrywolf> as to bernie, a quick check of polls shows clinton is massively in the lead, and he still doesn't stand a chance.
[23:17:35] <furrywolf> giving money to the rich isn't being libertarian. :P
[23:17:45] <furrywolf> not taking the money in the first place is being libertarian.
[23:19:01] <furrywolf> and trump is still rather in the lead for the republicans...
[23:22:24] <furrywolf> "rump has called global warming "a total hoax"[140] and has stated that the concept of global warming "was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."[147]" can you imagine that being president? :P
[23:22:34] <furrywolf> s/rump/Trump
[23:22:40] <XXCoder> rump is good name
[23:22:49] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I point you at Tony Abbot
[23:23:05] <XXCoder> trump the rump
[23:23:39] <SpeedEvil> Trump is very amusing to UK people, because it also means to break wind.
[23:24:04] <furrywolf> I don't think he can use brain farts as excuses for what he says.
[23:24:23] <XXCoder> few years ago (6?) I predicted gop would break due to tea party
[23:24:31] <XXCoder> it went worse than I predicted
[23:25:10] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: It worked for Raegan!
[23:29:17] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[23:30:00] <SpeedEvil> night