#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-08-02

[00:07:26] <furrywolf> bbl, sleepytime
[00:56:29] <trentster> Any cambam users here?
[00:56:51] <trentster> *prepares to duck as the shoes get thrown ;-) *
[00:57:07] <XXCoder> I tried it
[00:57:14] <XXCoder> wasnt too imporessed with it
[01:20:58] <trentster> yeah - XXCoder I am moving my workflows to fusion360 - just still learning and don't want to cut expensive stock yet with fusion until I understand it 100%
[01:21:21] <trentster> using Cambam for something now as I know what to expect with its CAM operations
[01:25:29] <new8743290> hi
[01:26:00] <just_pink> hi
[01:29:15] <just_pink> after long time that my CNC was in in parts for maintenance and upgrade, today I did a job on it.... so fun to come back to the hobby.
[01:29:40] <fenn> what did you make?
[01:29:58] <just_pink> 2 more heatsinks
[01:30:10] <just_pink> just drill and tapping
[01:30:33] <just_pink> so now I have 4 drivers and place for 5
[01:31:48] <zeeshan|2> pics
[01:32:24] <just_pink> one sec..
[01:33:20] <just_pink> SD full
[01:33:23] <just_pink> hate it
[01:38:15] <just_pink> one sec, I'm try other SD
[01:44:27] <XXCoder> nice
[01:52:43] <just_pink> eventually... after deleting some junk,,
[01:53:03] <just_pink> http://i.imgur.com/AiiTy0Z.jpg
[01:53:13] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: ^^
[01:53:17] <just_pink> for you
[01:54:30] <just_pink> fenn: XXCoder ^
[01:55:08] <zeeshan|2> nice
[01:55:34] <just_pink> just nice?
[01:56:09] <XXCoder> well cant think better word lol
[01:58:56] <just_pink> try some... awesome, fabulous, amazing job, WOW.. what a great tapping.. etc...
[01:59:28] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: XXCoder ^
[02:00:10] <XXCoder> sexy metal work?
[02:01:11] <just_pink> hmmm
[02:03:22] <just_pink> ok.. other subject,
[02:04:00] <just_pink> how I make the feed rate calculation for 0.5mm drill bit with 1000 rpm
[02:07:07] <XXCoder> http://www.custompartnet.com/calculator/drilling-speed-and-feed
[02:14:24] <just_pink> I'm try to work with it...
[02:15:43] <just_pink> 0.5mm in in = 0.0196850394 inches
[02:16:00] <fenn> why do people mix metric units and minutes? sort of defeats the point of going metric
[02:17:46] <just_pink> fenn: I like the metric system
[02:17:57] <fenn> me too
[02:18:18] <fenn> stuff like mm/min makes calculations harder
[02:18:58] <XXCoder> I prefer SI
[02:19:06] <XXCoder> too bad usa dont use it outside science
[02:20:40] <just_pink> XXCoder: Please tell me what size of drill bit is 0.109375 in?
[02:21:20] <XXCoder> https://www.google.com/search?q=0.109375+in+to+mm&gws_rd=ssl
[02:21:33] <XXCoder> I love google convertor. looks like 2.8 mm roughly
[02:21:43] <just_pink> XXCoder: no
[02:21:54] <fenn> 7/64 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Decimal-fraction_equivalents--v0006.png
[02:21:54] <just_pink> It's 7/64 drill bit
[02:22:09] <XXCoder> ah yea didnt have chart handy
[02:22:23] <fenn> actual 7/64 drill bit will be smaller than that because drill bits cut oversize
[02:22:32] <just_pink> XXCoder: go metric!
[02:22:44] <XXCoder> heh
[02:22:54] <XXCoder> right now I can only use 6 mm tools
[02:23:00] <XXCoder> I has ball em and em 6 mm
[02:23:13] <XXCoder> has no way to use other sizes for now
[02:23:45] <fenn> closest would be a #35 drill?
[02:24:23] <just_pink> yes
[02:24:30] <just_pink> https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/us-tap-drill-size.aspx
[02:24:51] <just_pink> I've used it for the tapping..
[02:24:57] <just_pink> 6-32
[02:25:47] <just_pink> I want to use metric but I can't find some in reasonable price
[02:28:48] <fenn> has anyone used a meshing belt drive system like this for cutting metal? how did it work out? http://mikesshop.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/DriveSystem.png
[02:30:35] <fenn> it seems like it would be pretty stiff if you used fiberglass belt
[02:32:56] <XXCoder> just_pink: maybe aliexpress
[02:33:29] <fenn> i would be worried about the quality of no-name chinese bolts
[02:33:39] <just_pink> fenn: belt Is very good for speed, but I Think it will make a-lot of flex if you will try to penetrate hard material, I'm nice for simple stuff.. but for metal stay with ballscrew with nice servo motor.
[02:34:29] <fenn> the belt is only stretching over a short distance though
[02:34:35] <Deejay> moin
[02:34:37] <just_pink> XXCoder: I start to order from fastenal.. but I start with the heatsnk stuff before that, so I stay with the 6-32..
[02:34:41] <XXCoder> fenn: geared belt?
[02:35:03] <fenn> i'm not sure what it's called or if it even has a name
[02:35:31] <fenn> the teeth of the belt mesh with grooves on the table, or another belt glued down to the table
[02:37:49] <archivist> I think belts were created for power transmission, not position control, I have never seen a positional accuracy spec yet from a belt maker
[02:38:07] <just_pink> fenn: the shapeoko work with that..
[02:38:10] <just_pink> Junk.
[02:38:42] <fenn> the shapeoko doesn't mesh with anything on the table
[02:38:51] <fenn> it's just a belt drive
[02:39:20] <just_pink> what do you mean by "on the table"
[02:39:39] <fenn> underneath where the belt is
[02:39:51] <archivist> there is an inverse belt/rack it engages with
[02:40:45] <fenn> the accuracy would come from the rack, not the flexible belt
[02:41:21] <just_pink> on the table you need to put the workpiece, all the driving parts should be under the table
[02:41:36] <fenn> if the belt and rack don't agree on how many teeth per inch then the belt will get looser or tighter along the distance traveled
[02:41:50] <fenn> sorry, table was the wrong word
[02:42:08] <just_pink> fenn: If the belt is flexi you will get very poor accuracy
[02:43:47] <fenn> i agree things like this are not stiff enough: http://www.ecmarsh.com/cnc/images/router_06.jpg
[02:44:03] <fenn> but i'm talking about something else, where only a small part of the belt can stretch
[02:48:31] <just_pink> fenn: the problem Is not accuracy as much as vibrations, I have cast iron machine with ball screw, and I'm I'm try to take some cut with large end mill I get some flex on the Z column - you can't see it with the naked eye but you feel is, and you get vibrations and poor surface
[02:49:06] <just_pink> if I'm*
[02:49:06] <fenn> "belt on belt drive"? terrible video http://youtu.be/T9QU3YQe-Sc?t=1m20s
[02:50:17] <just_pink> fenn: he use high speed spindle, he has very large machine, he cut wood!
[02:50:25] <just_pink> he use stepper
[02:51:42] <just_pink> fenn: if you wand small metal parts go with some MF70
[02:51:50] <just_pink> want*
[02:52:39] <fenn> i would never buy a toy like that
[02:53:15] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxo0G39ETt8
[02:53:21] <XXCoder> LOL that is interesting
[02:55:02] <archivist> I think chinese crap ballscrews are likely to out perform belts
[02:55:11] <just_pink> XXCoder: he sounds like a kid
[02:55:22] <XXCoder> interesting.
[02:55:33] <just_pink> kid that make knife from a drill bit..
[02:55:50] <XXCoder> why not if drill cannot be resharped
[02:56:33] <just_pink> kid: dad I want a knife - dad: NO!! - kid: what about drill bit?
[02:57:02] <XXCoder> well
[02:57:06] <fenn> arent knives illegal in UK now :P
[02:57:11] <XXCoder> hes far more active than most kids in usa
[02:57:40] <just_pink> I think knife is cheaper than drill bit.
[02:57:56] <XXCoder> well yeah
[02:58:09] <just_pink> I have a set of 4 small knifes from walmart, cost me $0.99
[02:58:17] <XXCoder> walmart
[02:58:22] <XXCoder> probably half lead
[02:58:43] <just_pink> lead? no..
[02:58:49] <XXCoder> cadium then
[02:59:04] <just_pink> to expensive..
[02:59:18] <XXCoder> tin
[02:59:22] <just_pink> jst "stainless steel
[02:59:27] <just_pink> jst "stainless steel
[02:59:32] <just_pink> jst "stainless steel""" errr
[02:59:42] <XXCoder> corrction fail :)
[03:00:02] <just_pink> the type that get rusted
[03:01:22] <XXCoder> just steel then heh
[03:02:17] <just_pink> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Paring-Knives-4pk/14964959
[03:04:48] <XXCoder> I will never buy from walmart
[03:05:10] <XXCoder> I will have heart attack twice and hit by semi truck at 60 mph before going there
[03:07:03] <just_pink> XXCoder: what's wrong with walmart??
[03:07:08] <fenn> i think this kid played a lot of minecraft
[03:07:23] <XXCoder> I really like his plastic caps reuse
[03:07:31] <XXCoder> awesome color blocks of plastic.
[03:08:20] <fenn> yeah i always wanted to do that
[03:08:57] <fenn> PETE has better material properties, is more uniform etc
[03:09:33] <just_pink> I have tons of plastic in the recycling bin..
[03:10:16] <just_pink> someone know about plan for small shredder?
[03:10:46] <XXCoder> not really but can always use yard shredder
[03:11:07] <fenn> i was thinking instead of mechanically shredding you could make a heated grid of wires that melt bottles apart into pieces as they are pushed through the grid
[03:11:08] <just_pink> something like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUs842BzwG8
[03:11:18] <archivist> shredders are too cheap to make your own
[03:11:24] <XXCoder> fenn: nice idea
[03:12:00] <fenn> a shredder would get dull and thin bottle parts would get stuck in it and clog the machine
[03:12:34] <fenn> i guess you could melt them bulk into a blob first to prevent that
[03:12:58] <XXCoder> or something like rolling cheese shredder
[03:13:29] <just_pink> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrGFVoUenkM
[03:15:14] <fenn> also shredders are dangerous because they can pull you in
[03:15:16] <bz> guys look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA
[03:17:03] <XXCoder> bz yeah been linked here few times
[03:17:05] <XXCoder> amazin
[03:17:12] <bz> i want a five-axis machine now
[03:17:25] <archivist> make one
[03:17:28] <just_pink> fenn: how you are going to pull in tp a sredder that is hand powerd??
[03:17:39] <fenn> well not that one of course
[03:17:40] <bz> has anyone ever tried mounting a two-axis rotating platform onto a cartesian mill?
[03:18:13] <just_pink> bz: I have place for 5 drivers
[03:18:43] <archivist> bz, yes
[03:18:49] <XXCoder> oooh look at all exposed chain, spocket, gears and shredder, ready to eat flesh
[03:19:04] <just_pink> but the machine is just 3, and I have 4 drivers and motors (one not in used)
[03:19:35] <bz> archivist: is there an official term that i could google?
[03:20:19] <just_pink> bz: you can find on ebay 4 / 5 axis tables
[03:20:39] <archivist> bz trunnion table
[03:21:56] <just_pink> bz: http://www.ebay.com/itm/cnc-router-4axis-rotary-axis-5th-axis-A-axis-for-engraving-machine-cnc-router-/221518581859?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3393895063
[03:22:20] <archivist> although you can be inventive and have them at other angles http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/2013_08_11_bevel/IMG_1633.JPG
[03:22:23] <bz> oh god trunnions
[03:22:34] <just_pink> but you have tou use a cam program that support 5 axis... this is not going to be cheap
[03:22:51] <archivist> you dont have to use cam
[03:23:08] <bz> just_pink: is 425 market value, though? seems a bit much for a coulpe of steppers axis
[03:23:34] <bz> i wrote my own cam (:
[03:24:00] <archivist> that image is from a hand coded bevel cutting setup
[03:24:16] <just_pink> you can make me an impeller on you 5 axis machine?
[03:24:33] <archivist> If I had a mind to
[03:25:19] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYNjnRdyLA8
[03:25:52] <bz> archivist: that's a lot of stacked parallels. have you run into any issues with precision?
[03:26:15] <bz> also, if you mounted one facing upwards, can i work as a lathe?
[03:26:51] <XXCoder> dunno, wild guess is that it depends on power of engine
[03:26:57] <XXCoder> *motor
[03:27:03] <just_pink> XXCoder: nice.. but not the smartest desigen..
[03:27:10] <XXCoder> yeah
[03:27:14] <XXCoder> looks doable though
[03:27:41] <archivist> I have mounted a tool on the rotary and turned the arbour on the spindle on the mill
[03:27:46] <bz> what i mean is whether you can get the centering power of a lathe
[03:28:09] <XXCoder> I remember someone saying he used big mill cnc machine as lathe
[03:28:14] <XXCoder> use spindle to hold part
[03:28:17] <just_pink> somone know whee I can fine a smallll dc motor with gear
[03:28:18] <XXCoder> and table mount tools
[03:28:52] <just_pink> by smaal I mean tiny.. 3mm diameter max
[03:29:38] <archivist> bz, I mill round parts and measure on the part then do a final cut to size, I get high accuracy considering the machine
[03:31:18] <archivist> bz the nice thing about rotary milling is the inherent roundness of the table and method
[03:31:52] <archivist> depends on quality of the rotary you use
[03:32:04] <just_pink> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Micro-Screw-Stepper-Motors-Miniature-2-phase-4-wire-stepping-motor-driver-/400969088075?hash=item5d5b9ebc4b
[03:32:18] <just_pink> I dont know why, but I want it.
[03:32:28] <XXCoder> make nano cnc
[03:32:43] <bz> archivist: you mean compared to milling a round edge on x-y?
[03:33:04] <archivist> yes
[03:33:15] <bz> archivist: so there are no discrete microscopic steps
[03:33:19] <bz> very cool
[03:33:29] <XXCoder> and no roundness errors
[03:33:38] <XXCoder> very small ovalness
[03:33:45] <XXCoder> many other possibilites
[03:33:46] <bz> that's not cool
[03:33:52] <archivist> well the errors is any come from the worm and worm gear in the rotary
[03:34:06] <archivist> is/if
[03:34:24] <XXCoder> http://www.core77.com/posts/21909/honey-i-shrunk-the-cnc-machine-piccolo-is-the-worlds-smallest-cnc-platform-21909
[03:35:23] <just_pink> JUNK
[03:35:35] <just_pink> J-U-N-K
[03:35:44] <XXCoder> yeah walmart cnc
[03:36:14] <bz> these arduino cncs don't really interpolate arcs very well
[03:36:36] <bz> in fact, the gcode for a 3d print is all g1
[03:36:43] <bz> just saying
[03:36:44] <just_pink> I need dc motor like to the cell phone virator motors.. but with gear..
[03:37:42] <archivist> bz I make gears, the worm/gear in the rotary are my biggest error term I think
[03:38:25] <bz> archivist: bit recursive since milling the worm yourself would require a rotary in the first place, right?
[03:38:26] <fenn> archivist: would it be better to use a cycloidal gear instead of a worm
[03:38:30] <XXCoder> micro cnc on lsd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-uQzyJU8PU
[03:38:45] <archivist> fenn, hell no
[03:39:47] <archivist> bz, the rotary sold by Vertex actually has a usable specification and does not cost too much
[03:41:32] <archivist> we had some errors at the last place I worked and it turned out most of the dividing heads were rubbish, only one measured ok
[03:41:56] <just_pink> XXCoder: step number 1 get a 3d printer, step number tow make JUNK!!
[03:42:04] <XXCoder> whee new term dividing head
[03:42:36] <archivist> a bad one has a sawtooth error term at worm wheel rate
[03:42:41] <XXCoder> interesting on dividing head
[03:42:53] <just_pink> *two
[03:43:21] <bz> gotta crank the vertex by hand, that could be interesting
[03:43:35] <archivist> add stepper to vertex
[03:46:33] <just_pink> XXCoder: but If he want to make a drawing with a pen he can attach the pen to the 3d printer.. but no.. lets make somthing that basically do nothing useful
[03:46:47] <XXCoder> yeah
[03:47:11] <ThisSucks> Re: Belts. Gates makes a GT series belt that has excellent registration. Con is that it's patented so the belts/pulley are expensive.
[03:47:48] <archivist> bz http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_01_19_cnc/P1190004.JPG
[03:49:02] <archivist> bz there is a slot in the side of the tube to do up the clamps on the coupler
[03:52:01] <fenn> oh he left
[03:52:13] <fenn> i'm surprised the gates GT belt patent hasn't expired yet
[03:52:30] <XXCoder> belts dont seem to be best option
[03:52:42] <XXCoder> expensive or not very good
[03:53:49] <fenn> not expensive compared to a gear rack or leadscrew
[03:55:11] <fenn> wow these timing belts are $200
[03:55:30] <bz> archivist: is there a max rpm on the vertex?
[03:55:57] <fenn> i think the "GT profile" is just a semicircle
[04:00:45] <fenn> HTD belts are only $4/meter
[04:01:03] <archivist> bz, I dont remember seeing an rpm spec, they do have some backlash (adjustable)
[04:21:58] <XXCoder> ice block cnc
[04:24:13] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QopJ8W52rRA
[04:36:52] <archivist> bz beware of counterfeits vertex eg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RDG-NEW-VERTEX-6-ROTARY-TABLE-HORIZONTAL-VERTICAL-HBM-DIVIDING-PLATES-TOOLS-/371068397423
[04:37:53] <archivist> real ones have a badge http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERTEX-6-HORIZONTAL-VERTICAL-ROTARY-TABLE-HV6-MILLING-ENGINEERING-TOOLS-/291252746737
[04:39:16] <fenn> apparently this "belt on belt" drive system was commercialized and they have some datasheets up http://bell-everman.com/products/linear-positioning/servobelt-linear-sbl
[04:44:06] <fenn> recommended maximum payload 300lb accuracy 125um (over what distance? unclear)
[04:44:25] <XXCoder> accuracu 125 um across 125 um
[04:44:42] <fenn> says over full travel but i can't find that value
[04:45:20] <fenn> elsewhere it said "up to 50 meters" but i find that hard to believe 125um/25m
[04:45:55] <fenn> 2.5ppm error
[04:47:08] <archivist> there are many impossible specifications on the web
[04:47:25] <XXCoder> -1um across infinity m
[04:47:31] <fenn> it's just an incomplete datasheet
[04:47:40] <archivist> time to set the local laws on advertisers
[04:48:12] <fenn> i think the full travel is 5.5m
[04:48:54] <archivist> so many are confusing resolution with accuracy too
[04:49:27] <fenn> no they have different values for rotary encoder vs linear encoder, the linear encoder is +-4um
[04:49:38] <fenn> but usually rotary encoders have higher resolution
[04:50:03] <archivist> so that is the encoders spec not the belt :)
[04:50:25] <fenn> also they give values for repeatability which says "depending on acceleration profile"
[04:50:42] <fenn> so i don't think it's just resolution
[04:51:49] <archivist> lots of error terms which should all be included in and total accuracy figure
[04:51:57] <archivist> and/any
[04:52:27] <XXCoder> any facts not stated I assume is really bad, for example if not stated any error across x distance
[04:52:34] <XXCoder> I assume one meter per meter :P
[04:53:15] <fenn> it's 125um/5.5m i just didn't see the field because it was labeled "maximum length"
[04:53:41] <trentster> howdy all
[04:53:55] <archivist> I have been in the discussions when writing specs, seeing what we could/could not say :)
[04:54:01] <XXCoder> hey
[04:54:30] <fenn> well anyway the value seems about right based on my experiences with belts
[04:57:32] <trentster> what do you guys do as best practice when cnc drilling a hole (I normally use spiral cycle) and a end mill very rarely drill bit. That being said I am trying to figure out whats the whole over sizing to use as someone mentioned dont go too tight with hole sizes and accuracy when building a cnc part. So for e.g if making an M8 hole through flatstock for a bolt to go through it into a tapped M8 hole in a 3060 extrusion - should I oversize a certain pec
[04:57:53] <trentster> instead of 8mm hole go 8.5mm or 8.2mm etc
[04:58:06] <trentster> whats the consensus here?
[04:58:31] <trentster> too tight not enough wiggle room too loose too much room for play as the machine move , vibrates etc
[04:59:32] <fenn> M8 cap screw head is 12mm so something less than 12mm :)
[04:59:48] <fenn> 9mm would probably be fine
[05:00:08] <fenn> the point of bolts is to clamp things, not to accurately locate them
[05:00:21] <fenn> if you are worried about getting knocked out of alignment use a roll pin or dowel pin
[05:01:31] <jdh> http://www.draughtsman.co.uk/information_images/mechanical/clearance_holes.htm
[05:03:58] <trentster> http://monosnap.com/image/B21auyEMLnMl8PEcJ8Ogwq0sajYpPw
[05:05:14] <trentster> fenn: from the test sholes I milled today I would say that even 8.5mm for a M8 hole is pushing it
[05:05:52] <fenn> is it too small or too big?
[05:06:25] <trentster> also found that pocketing a hole with a smaller bot and stepover produces by far the cleanest most production quality looking hole
[05:06:44] <trentster> fenn a touch too big
[05:06:59] <fenn> is the hole actually 8.5mm in diameter?
[05:07:05] <trentster> or too much wiggle room
[05:07:29] <trentster> yes its exactly 8.5 verified with calipers
[05:07:31] <XXCoder> http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_1606_13-movie-heroes-who-caused-mass-civilian-casualties/ funny
[05:07:37] <XXCoder> expecially #7
[05:07:43] <fenn> eh whatever if you don't have enough slop you can always drill it out later
[05:08:18] <trentster> busy looking at the hole walls with a microscope at the moment to see if I can find some chatter markes
[05:08:22] <trentster> *marks
[05:08:44] <trentster> I guess the purpose of these questions is to try and figure out what is industry practice
[05:08:53] <jdh> that's way too much thought for a bolt hole
[05:09:47] <fenn> the chart jdh linked to is "industry practice"
[05:09:58] <trentster> e.g. if you had to buy a cnc machine that self assembles lets say a "Shopbot" for argument sake, what size would they use for a hole where a M8 Screw goes through - always exactly 8mm or do they leave 0.1 additional wiggle room.
[05:10:21] <fenn> never exactly 8mm
[05:10:33] <trentster> oh sorry jdh I missed that link, looking now
[05:10:48] <XXCoder> so far at work all holes had tolences
[05:10:56] <jdh> google 'metric clearance hole'
[05:10:59] <XXCoder> typical is around .01
[05:11:12] <XXCoder> has seen .003" tolences though
[05:11:23] <fenn> not for a bolt hole
[05:12:27] <trentster> jdh: thanaks thats exactly what I was looking for :-) and I guess CNC machines fall into the "Close fit" category ;-)
[05:12:39] <syyl> a clearance hole for a M8 bolt/screw is 9mm
[05:12:48] <syyl> for regular tolerance
[05:12:59] <syyl> there is also "fine", then the hole is 8,4mm
[05:13:08] <syyl> or "coarse" then its 10mm
[05:13:12] <trentster> syyl: that way too big for CNC builds tho especially if everything is cad/cam designed and cnc cut
[05:13:18] <syyl> i didnt make this numbers up
[05:13:28] <syyl> thats DIN EN
[05:13:42] <syyl> and screws are not there to align anything
[05:13:47] <syyl> so clearance doesnt hurt
[05:13:48] <trentster> syyl: yeah jdh link calls "fine" = "Close Fit"
[05:14:01] <syyl> and makes the guy that has to screw that crap together not cry
[05:14:09] <Deejay> :D
[05:14:25] <XXCoder> then theres chinese tolerance which can be up to 15mm :P
[05:14:32] <syyl> yeah
[05:14:38] <syyl> you just need to stack washers
[05:14:42] <trentster> syyl it not the alighnment I am worried about its the introduction of vibrations and enertial forces over time that has more room to play into if bolts have lots of wggle room
[05:14:53] <trentster> or at least to my layman brain thats what makes sense
[05:14:54] <syyl> then the construction is faulty.
[05:15:06] <syyl> screws are not there to take shearing
[05:15:31] <syyl> when a screw connection is designed right
[05:15:52] <syyl> the parts are only held in position to each other by the friction introduced by the screws pressure
[05:16:02] <syyl> if the parts move against each other
[05:16:12] <syyl> wrong design on the screw connection
[05:16:35] <syyl> (more screws, pins that can take shearing, bigger screws or superglue)
[05:17:16] <trentster> syyl: yup - making notes
[05:17:26] <trentster> what does "stack washers" mean?
[05:17:29] <syyl> haha
[05:17:33] <syyl> you have a 20mm hole
[05:17:35] <trentster> 2 washers on top of each other?
[05:17:39] <syyl> and a M6 screw
[05:17:41] <trentster> is more effective than 1?
[05:17:49] <XXCoder> washers all way down
[05:17:50] <syyl> thats a total hack job ;)
[05:17:59] <syyl> farmers to that
[05:18:04] <fenn> it's for when you don't have a fender washer
[05:18:14] <syyl> or the fender washer is still to small :D
[05:18:29] <trentster> lol - I dont even know what a fender washer is.
[05:18:38] <fenn> a big washer with a tiny hole
[05:18:38] <trentster> need to take washer 101 class
[05:18:43] <syyl> :D
[05:18:48] <trentster> and not the one that involves girls and white t shirts.
[05:19:08] <syyl> that would be a class that I would take
[05:19:08] <syyl> .
[05:19:14] <syyl> where can i sign in?
[05:19:18] <syyl> have shovel, will travel
[05:19:27] <fenn> scary
[05:19:47] <syyl> only semi-scary
[05:21:25] <trentster> lol
[05:22:07] <fenn> http://www.spetsnaz-gru.com/spetsnaz-entrenching-shovel-1.htm
[05:22:27] <syyl> i have one of these under my drivers seat
[05:22:32] <syyl> for no special reson.
[05:22:56] <fenn> the shovels are sharpened on the edges for hand to hand combat
[05:23:14] <syyl> :)
[05:23:53] <trentster> syyl: right next to your bug out bag I presume :P
[05:24:03] <syyl> naa
[05:24:22] <syyl> i just run somebody over who has everything i need ;)
[05:24:59] <syyl> in case of a zombie apocalypse thats legit
[05:25:16] <trentster> syyl yup - thats exactly why I found a house next to a survivalist :-)
[05:25:23] <syyl> :D
[05:25:52] <trentster> if shit hit the fan just hop the wall and say howdy neighbour
[05:28:08] <trentster> so speaking of washers when does one use one of hose serated raised edge ones vs a stock standard flat ring?
[05:28:19] <syyl> if you want to marr the surface
[05:28:32] <syyl> they have no use whatsoever to secure a screw connection
[05:28:37] <syyl> same with spring waschers
[05:28:40] <syyl> or split ring
[05:28:44] <trentster> seriously tho, are they to be used together to aid in anto slippage?
[05:29:43] <trentster> yeah I kinda figured they were pretty useless bought a box when I was gathering cnc parts and have not used a single one
[05:30:54] <trentster> so basically normal steel flat washer and a bit of non permanent locktite on screw threads and all should be well in cnc machine land
[05:31:11] <trentster> at last from a screw coming loose from vibrations perspective
[05:31:26] <syyl> i try to stay away from anything washerish
[05:31:42] <syyl> especialy when screwing down critical parts
[05:31:51] <syyl> if you screw down a hardened linear rail
[05:31:58] <syyl> with a high grade screw
[05:32:07] <syyl> why put something soft between the part and the screw?
[05:32:17] <syyl> the washer will eventualy set itself
[05:32:22] <fenn> because something has to deform somewhere in the bolted joint
[05:32:23] <syyl> and the screwtension will lower
[05:32:32] <syyl> the screw will elongate
[05:32:42] <syyl> and thats what makes the connection strong
[05:32:49] <syyl> the washer will just mush
[05:34:08] <trentster> in my bit of testing a washer definately helps, more surface area and tention is a good thing, I have seen non washer screws vibrate loose and the ones with washers do not.
[05:34:38] <fenn> if you have a hardened bolt in a hardened thread clamping a hardened rail, won't the tightening torque go from 0 to infinite in a fraction of a turn?
[05:34:40] <syyl> take apart any real machinery
[05:34:41] <trentster> waiting for bad machine design retort …
[05:34:57] <syyl> there will be no washer under screws for linear rails, bearing blocks and so on
[05:36:48] * syyl is heading for the shop
[05:37:08] <trentster> off to buy washers are you :P
[05:38:08] <fenn> trentster: i think washers can help when bolting soft materials like aluminum and plywood
[05:38:24] <trentster> fenn yes I agree
[05:39:05] <fenn> that said, most of my machines don't use any washers
[05:39:16] <fenn> ones i've built i mean
[05:40:09] <fenn> i guess i tend not to make designs that have bolted joints under shear
[06:57:28] <jthornton> morning
[07:35:52] <trentster> omg - This was a ton of work - especially doing all the maths. Finally ready to cut my new Gantry sides.
[07:35:57] <trentster> http://monosnap.com/image/Ya3kPXhsHVQuf459Sg08ZyB8QE3RgU
[07:36:13] <trentster> Any observations before I start making chips fly?
[07:38:40] <jthornton> looks a bit crooked to me
[07:39:29] <trentster> heh the render is at an angle
[07:40:25] <trentster> jthornton: http://monosnap.com/image/eB1wd28bNFAdE0aZo1xBntsa5BVPD1
[07:40:28] <trentster> there ya go
[07:42:50] * jthornton is afraid to click on it
[07:46:28] <trentster> jthornton: why?
[07:46:38] <trentster> ok let me just get a png link for you
[07:47:18] <trentster> https://monosnap.com/file/eB1wd28bNFAdE0aZo1xBntsa5BVPD1.png
[07:51:48] <jthornton> even if it is not tilted it is the same drawing which I don't know what it is a drawing of and I'm on limited bandwidth
[07:54:41] <trentster> http://monosnap.com/image/dlWvXk8cHHCrqoZItJShxwsEZJx3lS.png
[07:55:04] <trentster> thats where the Ribs are going to attach either 3060 or 30/30
[07:55:11] <trentster> its new gantry plates for machine
[07:55:40] <trentster> archivist: could you give it a peek when you have a moment please would like your opinion before I start cutting
[08:16:28] * jthornton runs make to see how many broken links I have
[09:05:25] <fenn> trentster: are you missing bolt holes for the bottom way support beam, halfway down on the right
[09:08:41] <fenn> if you can do the triangular cutouts you can do a circular cutout for the stepper instead of a pocketing operation, should save some time
[09:09:28] <fenn> the triangular cutouts aren't really worth it though
[09:30:48] <trentster> fenn: well spotted there you have a good eye, I have not yet decided if I should add a second 30/60 beam extrusion section there which would need M8 hole or if to leave the beam and just drill m6 holes for additional connection points to rib
[09:33:19] <trentster> I am not sure that an additional corss beam there will add any major structural benefit
[09:34:11] <trentster> I am doing pocketing for the motor mount circle as I hate cleaning up tabs, they never look as clean as a nice clean hole
[09:35:07] <trentster> The triangular cutouts are an afterthought really to cut down a biut on the weight as well as have some additional peek gap through the gantry while its moving
[09:35:40] <trentster> I may or may not cut the triangles (mainly cause of Tab cleanup laziness ;-)
[09:40:43] <PetefromTn_> what kinda machine are we talking about?
[09:42:21] <trentster> PetefromTn_: that for me?
[09:42:37] <PetefromTn_> sure or anyone who knows LOL
[09:42:53] <trentster> heh - its a cnc router
[09:43:00] <trentster> DIY
[09:43:57] <PetefromTn_> ok
[09:50:11] <trentster> PetefromTn_: you looking for specifics
[09:51:02] <PetefromTn_> well I suppose I was interested in seeing what fenn was talking about...
[09:57:26] <trentster> PetefromTn_: did you see the pics I pasted?
[10:03:22] <PetefromTn_> no sorry
[10:06:13] <trentster> https://monosnap.com/file/eB1wd28bNFAdE0aZo1xBntsa5BVPD1.png
[10:06:14] <trentster> http://monosnap.com/image/dlWvXk8cHHCrqoZItJShxwsEZJx3lS.png
[10:13:57] <Tom_itx> what program drew that?
[10:19:42] <trentster> I created the CAM cycles in Cambam and ran the simulation in OpenSCAM
[10:19:54] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: Managed to get the e-stop and relays working yesterday. I need to get the PWM working. Right now its not respecting RPM, but it is working. I can turn it on, and use the spindle override to slow it down till it stops. It appears to use a different scale than software pwm and there is no way to specify the offset.
[10:20:07] <trentster> you just open a gcode file in openscam and it renders it like that for ya
[10:20:28] <trentster> http://openscam.org/
[10:26:57] * Deejay uses linuxcnc sim for checking the g-code
[10:33:21] <trentster> Deejay: yeah its nice as well but I dont run linuxcnc or linux on my design computer - in the house its all macs - in the garage /shop its linuxcnc
[10:33:37] <Sync_> just run a vm
[10:33:39] <Deejay> d'oh
[10:35:49] <os1r1s> trentster: Although I use simulators, there is nothing like running it through the exact host software. Whether its linuxcnc, mach3, or something else, you really should run it through that software. There are soooo many variables that will dramatically change what it does. And most of the sims don't support all canned cycles.
[10:37:43] <pcw_home> the Hostmot2 PWM scaling is the same as the software PWM ( that is 100% duty cycle when value=scale )
[10:38:01] <os1r1s> pcw_home: How do you take into account offset?
[10:38:20] <pcw_home> use the offset component
[10:39:55] <os1r1s> pcwhome: I was using setp pwmgen.0.scale 12285.7142857, setp pwmgen.0.offset 0.00232558139535
[10:41:21] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Now I’m using #setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.pwmgen.00.output-type 1, #setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.pwmgen.00.scale 4500
[10:41:35] <pcw_home> or if you have linearity issues, use lincurve
[10:42:12] <pcw_home> That cant be right, the scale should be the same...
[10:42:21] <os1r1s> Well, the weird thing is that the spindle override slider works great. If I go down to 15% it gets to a halt (300 rpm) and at 100% its up to 2800 rpm.
[10:42:43] <os1r1s> pcw_home: But it doesn't seem to respect RPM from M3 S500 for example
[10:42:49] <pcw_home> you have a 12285.7142857 RPM spindle?
[10:43:15] <os1r1s> pcw_home: No, its 0-2800. So does that mean the scale should be 2800?
[10:43:41] <pcw_home> yep
[10:43:52] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Ok, user error :)
[10:44:16] <trentster> os1r1s: good point and well taken
[10:44:22] <Tom_itx> until i added PID to mine i wasn't able to get respectable results
[10:44:32] <pcw_home> you should also set the PWM frequency to something the G540 likes
[10:44:44] <os1r1s> pcw_home: I set it to 50, which is what it recommended.
[10:45:09] <pcw_home> if this is for a VFD they are usually pretty good open loop
[10:45:20] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: You added a soft-start or ramp up for your motor, right? Is there any good instruction for that?
[10:45:31] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Its a KBIC-240 on a sherline
[10:45:46] <Tom_itx> it's built in the stock sherline driver
[10:45:47] <os1r1s> pcw_home: So not really a VFD, but similar in function.
[10:45:53] <trentster> gonna load up linuxcnc in a vm here for simulating cuts
[10:46:16] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/spindle_drive/
[10:46:23] <Tom_itx> data sheets for the standard sherline drives
[10:46:38] <os1r1s> trentster: I killed a vise by not simulating in the actual software. The I/K were incremental instead of absolute, or vice-versa.
[10:47:03] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I thought you were doing some ramp up in linuxcnc?
[10:47:52] <Tom_itx> no, the drive has an inhibit that when triggered causes the drive to start up with it's built in rampup
[10:48:08] <Tom_itx> so all i do is pulse that pin
[10:48:09] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: Got it. So you are using the built in ramp.
[10:48:20] <Tom_itx> yes, and it's ajustable
[10:48:36] <Tom_itx> it's in those pdfs
[10:48:49] <Tom_itx> i haven't changed it yet
[10:49:15] <Tom_itx> os1r1s, is yours a sherline?
[10:49:19] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I've adjusted that part. But when the drive kicked out at 12%, it got pretty abrupt.
[10:49:23] <Tom_itx> and are you using the stock driver?
[10:49:36] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: Yeah, its the stock driver wired up to my G540
[10:49:54] <os1r1s> I've used it for a long time in mach3, but now I've seen the light :P
[10:49:58] <Tom_itx> ok does it require the interface board since it's GND is floating?
[10:50:11] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/spindle_drive/kbsi_240d_manual.pdf
[10:50:16] <Tom_itx> i had to get that for mine
[10:50:49] <Tom_itx> if you fiddle around on it too much you'll find out
[10:51:37] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: The G540 has an interface and opto-isolator built in. But this doc is interesting. I don't thikn I've seen that interface.
[10:51:49] <Tom_itx> i hadn't either
[10:52:09] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I'd really like one of the homman digispeed boards, but they are hopelessly out of stock
[10:52:17] <Tom_itx> but i found out early on i needed it
[10:52:47] <Tom_itx> i found one on ebay for pretty cheap
[10:58:19] <Tom_itx> since my drive didn't have reverse i had to add the SSD to enable it or it would kick pretty hard chaning direction but just one way... i forget now if it was going from FWD to REV or vise versa
[10:58:56] <Tom_itx> due to the natural brakeing the motor did
[10:58:59] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: That might have been why mine was cutting out. I have it on an SSR. I wonder if linuxcnc was cutting the relay when it got low.
[11:00:38] <os1r1s> Do you use your forward/reverse actively during milling operations?
[11:00:53] <Tom_itx> i haven't yet. i set it up to do rigid tapping
[11:00:59] <Tom_itx> and have tested it
[11:01:11] <os1r1s> That is where Iw as going next :)
[11:01:41] <Tom_itx> the code works but i haven't had a chance to put tool to metal yet
[11:01:53] <Tom_itx> been under the weather for a while
[11:02:06] <Tom_itx> air cut works good
[11:02:17] <os1r1s> Are you pausing between the reversal?
[11:02:30] <Tom_itx> just the time it takes for the relays to reverse
[11:02:44] <Tom_itx> there is a slight pause but not much
[11:02:52] <Tom_itx> you can see the spindle code in my hal
[11:03:13] <os1r1s> I know the doc said it would wear the motor quickly doing that. Thats why I thought I would ask
[11:03:37] <Tom_itx> i doubt it
[11:04:01] <Tom_itx> the brushes are made for one direction and may wear a bit more reversing but that's about it
[11:04:19] <os1r1s> Its not like these machines are continuous duty, so it likely doesn't matter
[11:04:56] <Tom_itx> not to me
[11:05:04] <Tom_itx> i'll never wear it out
[11:06:39] <Tom_itx> i think most of my spindle code is at the bottom of the hal
[11:07:14] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I've been reviewing it. You have a lot of interesting stuff in there.
[11:07:54] <Tom_itx> i set my delays up with a logic analizer to give just enough time for the relays to switch
[11:08:16] <Tom_itx> checking the input to the relay as well as the actual switch
[11:10:49] <Tom_itx> i need to clean the files up but am waiting to make sure it's all gonna work as expected
[11:12:19] <Tom_itx> setp timedelay.0.on-delay .01
[11:12:19] <Tom_itx> setp timedelay.0.off-delay .01
[11:12:34] <Tom_itx> that's for the spindle relay
[11:14:16] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: After I get this all going, I need to wire up the toolchanger.
[11:14:20] <Tom_itx> i also used the near component for the PID otherwise i couldn't get the quicker ramp up on it without overshooting
[11:14:39] <Tom_itx> andy wrote a toolchanger comp recently you should look at
[11:15:37] <Tom_itx> testing going from FWD to REV using pid i would get overshoot without it in extreme conditions
[11:15:37] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I'll ask him when I see him on. That would be helpful.
[11:16:01] <Tom_itx> mind you, it found a bug in lcnc code they have yet to completely resolve
[11:16:39] <jthornton> nap time :)
[11:16:51] <Tom_itx> it's not even noon yet!!
[11:17:31] <jthornton> don't want to lose my afternoon lol
[11:20:05] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: Do you think an optoreflective sensor (like the stock sherline RPM readout) will be significantly worse than an encoder like you are using?
[11:20:39] <Tom_itx> mine is 500 count 2000 quad so .... yes
[11:20:46] <Tom_itx> does it have an index?
[11:20:50] <Tom_itx> and is it quadrature?
[11:21:02] <Tom_itx> i used a 28 count encoder for a long time
[11:21:05] <Tom_itx> from an old printer
[11:21:08] <zeeshan|2> i'll timedelay you tom!
[11:21:40] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/new_pulleys/new_pulley_mounted2.jpg
[11:21:44] <Tom_itx> seen there
[11:22:21] <zeeshan|2> man i need to put an encoder
[11:22:25] <zeeshan|2> right on my spindle like that too
[11:22:29] <zeeshan|2> mine is at the motor right now
[11:22:34] <zeeshan|2> so it can't figure out speed changes
[11:22:35] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: The stock one is a decal with 8 images and an optoreflective sensor
[11:22:42] <Tom_itx> but couldn't do reverse with tapping etc with it
[11:22:43] <os1r1s> 8 bars or whatever
[11:22:55] <Tom_itx> that's pretty coarse
[11:23:16] <Tom_itx> you will need an index pulse to do rigid tapping
[11:23:22] <Tom_itx> or any other sync motion
[11:23:43] <zeeshan|2> lies
[11:23:47] <zeeshan|2> i has a and index
[11:24:07] <os1r1s> On my mill I have a inductive sensor, though not connected right now. That is effectively an index.
[11:24:24] <zeeshan|2> os1r1s: what mill do you have
[11:24:29] <Tom_itx> should work then
[11:24:31] <os1r1s> zeeshan|2: Taig mill with a sherline motor
[11:24:56] <Tom_itx> os1r1s, does your motor have external replaceable brushes?
[11:24:57] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: But I wasn't planning to have both. Just one or the other. It might make sense to use a sensor like you posted.
[11:25:04] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: Yes
[11:25:15] <Tom_itx> my old one was internal
[11:25:22] <Tom_itx> i recently got a newer one
[11:25:31] <Tom_itx> so i've got a spare if needed now
[11:28:23] <Tom_itx> my first encoder came from this: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/motors/stepper6.jpg
[11:29:54] <trentster> adding new tools to tool table is this still done manually via sqlite sql additions?
[11:30:50] <zeeshan|2> trentster: what
[11:31:38] <trentster> how do I add new tools to tool table?
[11:31:47] <zeeshan|2> click the add button
[11:31:54] <zeeshan|2> bopttom left
[11:32:05] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: I was hoping to avoid something like this ... http://www.cadcamcadcam.com/ProductImages/threadkit2.jpg
[11:32:30] <trentster> zeeshan-lab: oh I searched the wiki and it said something about addint it to sqlite via sql code
[11:32:38] <trentster> lol - guess wiki is a bit outdated
[12:04:04] <furrywolf> meh. raining.
[12:11:51] <Loetmichel2> *meh* thats the fith electric wheelchair that i dont get on ebay... the others are bidding like crazy.. :-( seems i do have to modify the existing one my wife has with a few motors and batterys... sucks :-(
[12:13:46] <furrywolf> Loetmichel2: craigslist, yard sales.
[12:13:50] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel2: it will probably work better if you do it yourself, but it takes time that you might not have
[12:14:04] <Loetmichel2> right
[12:14:07] <furrywolf> the most I've spent for one is $50...
[12:14:09] <Loetmichel2> on both accouts
[12:14:25] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: for an electric wheelchair? lucky one
[12:14:45] <furrywolf> Loetmichel2: people's parents/relatives pass away and they clean out the house.
[12:15:04] <Loetmichel2> http://www.ebay.de/itm/171867855353 <- last one i missed. and that was CHEAP because its deep in the woods and no delivery
[12:15:45] <pcw_home> They are common here for next to nothing because of our insane medical health system
[12:16:24] <furrywolf> the last one I got I made into a nice little flatbed cart... it was a heavy-duty model with a 350lb rating (I think), with 13" or 14" wheels (don't remember). bolted the motors to some aluminum bolted to a sturdy wooden frame, with a piece of plywood for the top (4ft by 2.5ft or so), with a pair of 55Ah AGMs...
[12:17:31] <furrywolf> used 10" pneumatic swivel casters for the front wheels, and reprogrammed the motor controller to "I'm not fucking senile" mode.
[12:17:45] <furrywolf> I've never seen one with hub motors like that.
[12:18:19] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: these are for confined spaces
[12:18:42] <Loetmichel2> they are not larger than a normal hand-driven wheelchair
[12:18:53] <furrywolf> eh? it looks like it needs much more space than the one I took apart. it had six wheels with the driven wheels in the middle, so it'd turn in place.
[12:18:54] <Loetmichel2> wife needs one for going to the mall
[12:19:05] <Loetmichel2> she can walk a few meters, but then it hurts
[12:19:09] <Loetmichel2> (bad hip)
[12:19:26] <Loetmichel2> and i am tired of pushing her for miles and miles
[12:20:21] <furrywolf> one suggestion: unless .de is much more sane than .us, REPROGRAM THE MOTOR CONTROLLER. here at least, the default programming is "I'm mentally deficient as well as physically disabled", and it takes several seconds to do anything, turns really slowly, etc, all by design.
[12:20:45] <furrywolf> http://quest.mda.org/files/images/Quest2/18.4/permobil_m300.jpg that's the style I took apart last time... turns in place.
[12:21:37] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: as it seems that i have to build it myself anyway i will use 2 2.2kw outrunners from my planes and build the motor controllers from scratch ;)
[12:21:45] <furrywolf> that works too. :P
[12:22:04] <Loetmichel2> do you think 4.4kw is too much?
[12:22:12] <furrywolf> no
[12:22:30] <furrywolf> given as a normal wheelchair is around that. :P
[12:22:48] <furrywolf> I think the peak on the last one I took apart was around 4.8kw...
[12:23:13] <furrywolf> normal wheelchairs are 50-100A/motor at 24V.
[12:23:57] <Loetmichel2> hmmm
[12:24:12] <Loetmichel2> the ones i dismantled here have usually 250W or 500W motors
[12:24:15] <Loetmichel2> not more
[12:24:29] <furrywolf> I've never seen that small of a motor... lol
[12:24:58] <Loetmichel2> the hub motkrs seem to be a bit more efficient
[12:25:07] <Loetmichel2> and they only drive up to 6 kmh
[12:25:09] <Loetmichel2> not more
[12:25:38] <furrywolf> how do they do on hills?
[12:25:40] <CaptHindsight> well, you don't want her to end up with 2 bad hips or worse
[12:26:29] <furrywolf> I'm guessing they have a lot less torque, and assume some manual assistance, while the power-only variety need to have enough power to get up curbs, etc, without ever needing help.
[12:26:38] <CaptHindsight> I'd probably want range more than speed
[12:27:37] <CaptHindsight> but it depends on the area, where can you go unless you have pretty smooth pavement
[12:29:42] <furrywolf> if you want range, bigger batteries. :)
[12:30:33] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: or more efficient drives
[12:31:02] <Loetmichel2> which is the better variant iif you still want to be able to load the chair in the car by hand ;)
[12:31:12] <furrywolf> http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ has a lot of useful information for working with stock wheelchair components. I got the information for reprogramming the motor controller I used from there.
[12:31:38] <furrywolf> the drive is pretty close to 100% efficient. they handle several kW without a few-square-inch heatsink getting more than warm.
[12:32:38] <furrywolf> that page also has information on selecting aftermarket motor controllers, li-ion chargers, etc.
[12:33:15] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf_ problem is that he is building fixed chairs
[12:33:23] <Loetmichel2> mine HAS to be foldable
[12:33:33] <furrywolf> http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3-lithium-fast-powerchair.htm build her one of those. :P
[12:33:34] <furrywolf> ah
[12:33:37] <Loetmichel2> because wife drives a BMW X1 with no modifications
[12:33:48] <Loetmichel2> so i have to fold the chair and lift it into the trunk
[12:33:53] <furrywolf> receiver hitch wheelchair lift?
[12:33:58] <Loetmichel2> and thats simply not possible
[12:34:05] <Loetmichel2> with a fixed one
[12:34:13] <Loetmichel2> not enough room in the trunk
[12:34:30] <furrywolf> "3x faster, 3x further or more, 5x battery service life, 5x faster charging capability, 3x the power" :P
[12:34:40] <Loetmichel2> i even have to fold down the manual ones to fit them in the trunk
[12:35:24] <furrywolf> no, one like http://www.handicapaids.net/websites/hca/photogallery/2784833/bruno-out-sider-asl-250-exterior-hitch-mounted-wheelchair-lift-for-pickup%20truck.jpg that doesn't use your trunk.
[12:35:56] <Loetmichel2> btw: what is it with those "arrowslit" rear windows these days on cars?
[12:36:06] <Loetmichel2> how are you supposed to see ANYTHING out there?
[12:37:17] <CaptHindsight> who uses their mirrors anyway? ah forgot you're in Germany, maybe you still do :)
[12:37:43] <Loetmichel2> better do
[12:37:50] <Loetmichel2> because of no speed limit here
[12:38:02] * furrywolf wonders what the hell an arrowslit rear window is
[12:38:10] <Loetmichel2> on the autobahn you still can have someone tailgating at 220++kmh ;)
[12:38:13] <CaptHindsight> it would be complete carnage here
[12:38:36] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: "schiessscharte" in german very small and narrow opening
[12:39:14] * Loetmichel2 was on the reciving end of that a few times
[12:39:41] <Loetmichel2> my opel has a Vmax in ecess of 230ßkmh... and i DO drive it that fast
[12:39:41] <furrywolf> yes, that's the german word for an arrow slit... but I've still never seen something like that on a car. heh.
[12:40:09] <CaptHindsight> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1083814/Pictured-The-robot-legs-help-people-weight-feet.html these might not help for some hip injuries
[12:40:21] <Loetmichel2> and then you get some grandma in a fiat 500 pulling out behind a semi at 90kmh ... without looking in the review mirror
[12:40:21] <furrywolf> my pickup has a top speed of 60mph... and I do drive it that fast! ... well, when there's a tailwind, at least....
[12:40:35] <Loetmichel2> ... these are the times when you can see your brake discs glow ;)
[12:40:54] <furrywolf> my truck doesn't have brake discs. :P
[12:41:03] <Loetmichel2> my car has
[12:41:32] <Loetmichel2> its the fourth time now that i have painted a few 100m of dotted black strips on the tarmac...
[12:41:43] <Loetmichel2> gets your heart rate up when it happens ,)
[12:41:47] <furrywolf> heh
[12:42:00] <Loetmichel2> "all hail ABS" ;)
[12:42:16] <furrywolf> I'm not sure if my subaru or my van is faster, but neither one goes anywhere near 230km/h.
[12:42:29] <Loetmichel2> my car weights around 2 metric tons
[12:42:52] <Loetmichel2> to get that from 230 to below 90 in virtually no space IS a challenge
[12:43:21] <furrywolf> my subaru MIGHT make it up to that speed, but I wouldn't trust its ability to handle safely that fast.
[12:43:44] <Loetmichel2> oh the omega drives well at that speed
[12:43:50] <furrywolf> engine would be right at redline too
[12:44:00] <Loetmichel2> it DOES overheat if you do that for more than about 20 minutes
[12:44:31] <Loetmichel2> the chiller in the front is a bit small
[12:44:52] <Loetmichel2> s/chiller/radiator
[12:44:52] <furrywolf> my speedometer only goes up to 140km/h. :)
[12:45:30] <Loetmichel2> i drive a german car
[12:45:36] <Loetmichel2> its made for these speeds ;)
[12:45:41] <CaptHindsight> was the car designed in Italy? :)
[12:45:44] <Loetmichel2> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11969&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[12:45:45] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: you know what surprises me most about that article? they didn't find some 16 year old girls with purple hair to model them.
[12:45:55] <Loetmichel2> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11672
[12:45:58] <Loetmichel2> opel omega
[12:46:02] <Loetmichel2> german design
[12:46:22] <Loetmichel2> but the engine is made by BMW
[12:46:30] <Loetmichel2> the automatic gearbox alsp
[12:46:32] <Loetmichel2> also
[12:46:37] <furrywolf> I had a BMW. I sold it. worst vehicle I've ever owned.
[12:46:42] <furrywolf> I had a 740i.
[12:46:50] <furrywolf> PIECE OF CRAP.
[12:47:05] <Loetmichel2> so i think they just designed the radiator a bit too small
[12:47:07] <Loetmichel2> at opel
[12:47:29] <furrywolf> anything BMW touches has cooling issues.
[12:47:39] <Loetmichel2> hrhr
[12:48:03] <furrywolf> BMW has never made a vehicle that does not overheat nor, in recent times at least (since the '80s), doesn't have cooling system components randomly explode.
[12:48:22] <Loetmichel2> btw: that car was sold in the US by cadillac as a "catera"... but not as a station waggon i think
[12:49:18] <Loetmichel2> seems the americans dont like station wagons
[12:49:28] <furrywolf> eh? I have a station wagon. :P
[12:49:45] <CaptHindsight> they became minivans and SUV's
[12:49:47] <Loetmichel2> small station wagons
[12:50:04] <CaptHindsight> or now crossovers that don't do anything well
[12:50:04] <Loetmichel2> the omega is considered "big" in germany
[12:50:20] <furrywolf> I have a small station wagon. :)
[12:50:31] <Loetmichel2> its has the biggest trunk of all german driven cars for a fact
[12:50:51] <Loetmichel2> but for american circumstances i would classify it "small"
[12:51:35] <CaptHindsight> the minivan replaced the station wagon and since cars weren't inefficient enough they started marketing SUV's
[12:51:46] <Loetmichel2> its only 2 tons, 150hp 2.5 liters straight six turbocharged diesel
[12:51:57] <Loetmichel2> CaptHindsight: right ;)
[12:52:48] <Loetmichel2> AND the omega gets 26-28mpg ;)
[12:52:59] <PetefromTn_> I love my minivan ;)
[12:53:02] <furrywolf> I have three early '80s subaru station wagons, like http://stationwagonforums.com/forums/gallery/files/1/1983_subaru_gl_station_wagon8.jpg
[12:53:02] <Loetmichel2> thats much to efficient for american cars ;-)
[12:53:23] <furrywolf> one of them got totalled a month ago by an inattentive driver not noticing it was time to stop.
[12:53:36] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: mine is from 2004
[12:53:39] <PetefromTn_> I got 22 mpg on the recent trip to Chicago with it full of junk and my whole family...
[12:53:44] <Loetmichel2> sadly thats the last one i will get
[12:53:45] <furrywolf> one of them I bought a couple weeks ago. haven't driven it yet, needs more repairs and registration.
[12:53:58] <Loetmichel2> opel ceased to build them in december 2003
[12:54:03] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: where did you end up stopping for pizza?
[12:54:11] <PetefromTn_> Giardino's
[12:54:21] <furrywolf> I have a 1983 and two 1984s. the 1983 is the one that's now a fair bit shorter.
[12:54:23] <PetefromTn_> I am not sure I spelled that correctly
[12:54:31] <CaptHindsight> giordanos
[12:54:45] <furrywolf> one of them I put in a larger engine. that's the one that MIGHT make it up to your road speeds... but the suspension was never meant to go that fast.
[12:54:50] <PetefromTn_> it was decent but I am not used to pizza with the sauce on the top..
[12:55:00] <PetefromTn_> yeah Giordano's
[12:55:00] <CaptHindsight> recall which one? where it was near?
[12:55:07] <PetefromTn_> it was down from the pier
[12:55:17] <PetefromTn_> big place inside
[12:55:22] <PetefromTn_> two story
[12:55:29] <PetefromTn_> with the pizza ovens right near the entrance
[12:55:45] <furrywolf> best pizza I've had was some little town in the middle of the woods in new jersey. yes, NJ has parts of the state that are in the middle of the woods.
[12:55:47] <CaptHindsight> the touristy part of town
[12:55:51] <PetefromTn_> yup
[12:56:29] <furrywolf> we were offroading my truck through the woods on old access roads, came out by some little town in the middle of nowhere, saw the one restaurant in town was a pizza place, decided to stop for lunch...
[12:56:31] <PetefromTn_> I have always heard they make awesome deep dish chicago style pizza.... it was good...but I think I have had sicilian pizza other places that was better
[12:56:50] <CaptHindsight> locals don't really eat it
[12:57:05] <PetefromTn_> really heh
[12:57:09] <CaptHindsight> it's just been marketed to death
[12:57:30] <PetefromTn_> like I said it is good and THICK but I did not care for the sauce all over the top like that..
[12:57:39] <PetefromTn_> we have some leftovers we might eat for dinner tonight LOL
[12:57:54] <furrywolf> I'm not a big pizza fan... the only time I eat pizza is when I'm with other people who insist on it. heh.
[12:58:13] <PetefromTn_> I love a good pizza but not my favorite food overall
[12:58:20] <furrywolf> I much prefer a good curry. :)
[12:58:27] <PetefromTn_> yeesh
[12:59:21] <PetefromTn_> I could not believe the traffic and chaos of driving in Chicago surface streets tho....what a freaking mess!!
[12:59:46] <CaptHindsight> especially on a weekend
[12:59:59] <PetefromTn_> I almost killed an old lady on a bicycle when I tried to make a left turn at a light....heh
[13:00:12] <PetefromTn_> just nutz
[13:00:13] <CaptHindsight> you get the hang of it
[13:00:19] <PetefromTn_> no thanks LOL
[13:00:45] <CaptHindsight> it's far worse in other large foreign cities
[13:00:48] <PetefromTn_> I used to think Atlanta and Knoxville were disasters for traffic...
[13:01:01] <PetefromTn_> they are positively organized in comparison
[13:01:32] <CaptHindsight> I don't miss it
[13:01:42] <PetefromTn_> the cabbies there are amazingly bold assholes
[13:02:19] <CaptHindsight> it can take an hour to drive 5 miles during rush hour in the city
[13:02:21] <PetefromTn_> I suppose it would be cool living there if you don't have a car and take public trans or ride a bike everywhere...there are lots of neat stores and restaurants
[13:02:29] <furrywolf> one of these days I'll try making curry pizza... start with a pizza crust, but put curry sauce, tandoori chicken, dal, chana, chunks of paneer, etc....
[13:02:34] <PetefromTn_> Oh at least an hour LOL
[13:02:54] <furrywolf> I got some advice from a NY cabbie once: "Never use turn signals. they let people know what you're doing."
[13:03:01] <CaptHindsight> maybe for a while since it's new to you
[13:03:43] <PetefromTn_> I sure as hell would not want to go back there for anything more than a day visit and if I did I would fly in and take the rails into town.
[13:03:56] <CaptHindsight> it's setup to eat/drink and shop, and there are a few museums, theaters, sights etc
[13:04:04] <furrywolf> I'm a country wolfy. I avoid cities.
[13:04:23] <CaptHindsight> after the few museums and similar all that left is shopping and eat/drinking
[13:04:37] <furrywolf> I'm at home on dirt roads in the hills.
[13:04:38] <PetefromTn_> yeah there are lots of nice streetside deli's and cafe's
[13:04:56] <PetefromTn_> with outdoor seating
[13:05:35] <PetefromTn_> and some rather amazing buildings and of course the sears tower or whatever they are calling it these days. We wanted to go in but apparently it is $20.00 a person just to ride up in the elevator
[13:05:49] <furrywolf> it will always be the sears tower. :P
[13:05:55] <CaptHindsight> and it quite a walk up :)
[13:05:58] <furrywolf> they can claim it's called something else, but that won't change anything.
[13:06:01] <PetefromTn_> apparently not
[13:06:10] <CaptHindsight> and parking is >$30
[13:06:21] <PetefromTn_> yeah parking is INSANE
[13:06:29] <CaptHindsight> so $80 for a family of 4 + parking
[13:06:30] <furrywolf> I think it's supposedly the willis tower now, but it's still the sears tower.
[13:06:34] <PetefromTn_> we paid like $25.00 for the three hours we ate that pizza
[13:06:45] <CaptHindsight> that was a deal
[13:06:46] <PetefromTn_> and that was cheap apparently
[13:06:59] <CaptHindsight> not as bad a NYC
[13:07:19] <furrywolf> I've never been somewhere you have to pay for parking. heh.
[13:07:33] <PetefromTn_> hell we pay for parking even in knoxvegas here
[13:07:38] <furrywolf> the only place that had paid parking was the NJ boardwalk, so we just parked inland and hiked.
[13:07:39] <PetefromTn_> but it is just a couple bucks
[13:07:42] <CaptHindsight> at times I would park near a subway for free and take that downtown
[13:08:17] <CaptHindsight> it can take 30 minutes to drive around the block some days in the downtown area
[13:08:25] <furrywolf> I've never been on a subway or a train. lol
[13:08:29] <PetefromTn_> altho the last trip we made to downtown Knoxvegas we found a cool parking garage that is free after 6pm to help the downtown area so that was nice
[13:08:29] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: the suspension of german cars IS made to go 200++kmh
[13:08:54] <Loetmichel2> ... but still the x1 of my wife FEELs unsafe doing so because it is so SHORT
[13:09:31] <furrywolf> my BMW handled much worse than my subaru. but, it was a 7-series. I believe they're intentionally designed to suck.
[13:09:32] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: how was traffic from Great Lakes down to Navy Pier?
[13:09:37] <Loetmichel2> it starts jumping at every transverse bump on the street
[13:10:12] <PetefromTn_> great Lakes training center to Navy pier took about 1.5 with the lions share of that inside the city area
[13:10:14] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: the 7 series bmws are made to feel "american" in suspension
[13:10:18] <furrywolf> the 740i had way, way, way, way too soft of a suspension, intentionally because it was designed for senile people who drive 55mph in the fast lane with their blinker on all day.
[13:10:33] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: do you have tollways down there?
[13:10:41] <Loetmichel2> soft as fuck. "boat on the river" if you know what i mean
[13:10:43] <PetefromTn_> in knoxville?
[13:10:48] <furrywolf> it rolled horribly if you tried doing anything that would be considered corning.
[13:10:49] <furrywolf> yep
[13:10:58] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: yes, or near
[13:10:59] <furrywolf> as I said, it's the worst car I've ever owned!
[13:11:06] <PetefromTn_> no we don't have tollways around here that I have ever seen
[13:11:28] <PetefromTn_> amazing the balls they have to actually charge tolls when the roads are a freaking disaster area
[13:11:38] <furrywolf> also, the 7-series auto tranny has 1st gear disabled. because the people who buy them want smooth rides, not scary things like acceleration.
[13:11:42] <Loetmichel2> the X1 of my wife however: you can feel in your ass rolling over a coin
[13:12:02] <CaptHindsight> depending on how far you go it can cost $8 one way to work from the burbs into the city
[13:12:14] <furrywolf> BMW managed to make a car with a 280hp V8 that couldn't break the tires free.
[13:12:16] <PetefromTn_> yeah each booth was like $1.50
[13:12:34] <PetefromTn_> BTW we managed to not be able to get to the right for the first one and blew thru accidentally
[13:12:49] <PetefromTn_> probably gonna get a bill for $2k in the mail or something
[13:12:51] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: my car has "anti-slip" electronics also
[13:12:58] <Loetmichel2> its off most of the time
[13:12:58] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: when they first built them they were to self fund and pay themselves off in <20 years
[13:13:13] * furrywolf plans to stick to being a country wolfy
[13:13:13] <Loetmichel2> i LIKE to do powerslides around corners
[13:13:23] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: but after 20 years they need rebuilding, wash, rinse , repeat...
[13:13:37] <PetefromTn_> hehe
[13:13:38] <furrywolf> Loetmichel2: the problem wasn't the traction control... the problem was they disabled 1st gear, by design, so make it smoother.
[13:13:43] <furrywolf> so all starts were in 2nd gear.
[13:14:14] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: this used to be ~100 yards down from Navy Pier
[13:14:22] <CaptHindsight> the good ol days
[13:14:30] <PetefromTn_> what was?
[13:14:40] <CaptHindsight> https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c7/d1/8c/c7d18cd88a4c1ca12955e660db70dc6a.jpg
[13:14:42] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf:the omga has russian rubber on it
[13:14:51] <furrywolf> a friend has a 540i... same engine... but with a proper gearbox (6speed manual) and non-boat suspension. it's a much better car in every way.
[13:14:54] <Loetmichel2> lives forever but bo grip at all
[13:15:01] <Loetmichel2> i can spin the wheels in third
[13:15:10] <furrywolf> lol
[13:15:25] <PetefromTn_> heh sure as hell does not look anything like that anymore anywhere around there..
[13:15:33] <Loetmichel2> the fact that the heavvy engine is in the front and the car os RWD adds to that, tho
[13:15:54] <furrywolf> I had to drive a company vehicle with tires like that... I don't remember the name, but it was something stupid like "ecoeconowear" or something else ungodly awful... sure, they might have gotten good gas milage and gone 100k miles... but they had NO traction.
[13:16:24] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: is was the old shipping pier that by the 70's was nearly in ruins
[13:16:39] <Loetmichel2> and remember i live in germany
[13:16:42] <Loetmichel2> we have WINTER here
[13:16:46] <Loetmichel2> with snow and ice
[13:17:02] <Loetmichel2> and half a year of rain between seasons ;)
[13:17:47] <Loetmichel2> i'll have to get new summer tyres soon anyways, will see to get something a little better
[13:18:16] <Loetmichel2> ... i dont think my old ones are any street legal now: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11966
[13:18:34] <Loetmichel2> ... had a slight sissue with deadjusted whishbones on the front
[13:19:00] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepsnow02.jpg driving back over my own tracks in NJ after a snow.
[13:19:49] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: whats that bright disk in the sky?
[13:20:15] <furrywolf> lol
[13:20:29] <furrywolf> AFTER a snow, not during. :P
[13:20:40] <Loetmichel2> ok, i am exaggerating a bit here
[13:20:47] <Loetmichel2> it HAS some sunny days here
[13:21:09] <Loetmichel2> not that much , but a month a year os sunny and clear blue sky ;)
[13:21:17] <Loetmichel2> or around that
[13:22:13] <furrywolf> yeah, there's not nearly as much sun as I'd like where I am now... been thinking on and off of moving.
[13:22:32] <PetefromTn_> jeez man I need to find some work to do here just had to dump over $150.00 just in school supplies and we have not even bought the newest flavor of TI calculator they need for school...SIGH
[13:22:35] <furrywolf> I live in one of the wettest parts of the US, with the foggiest airport in the US (third-foggiest in the world)...
[13:22:56] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: give them a pencil and a sheet of paper. :P
[13:23:08] <CaptHindsight> the calc scam
[13:23:22] <PetefromTn_> Oh you mean three large boxes of pencils and four reams of paper?
[13:23:47] <furrywolf> do they have smartphones? you can get apps that'll do everything a graphing calculator does.
[13:24:13] <furrywolf> TI's calcs are just a Z80 with a miniscule amount of flash and ram... no excuse for how much they cost.
[13:24:43] <PetefromTn_> add to that the cost of this trip and food/gas It has been a VERY wallet draining week hehe
[13:27:23] <furrywolf> buy the calculator, measure the case, cnc a new case and anodize it, send them to school with it with instructions they have to convince all their friends that they need anodized cases too, profit.
[13:27:39] <PetefromTn_> hehehe
[13:27:42] <PetefromTn_> not a bad idea
[13:28:51] <furrywolf> engrave currently-popular-where-you-are slogans, brands, and characters onto them on request, for an additional fee.
[13:29:57] <PetefromTn_> that's a good way to get sued for copyright infringements LOL
[13:30:32] <furrywolf> It's not my little pony! It's my dimmunitive equines! :P
[13:33:26] <furrywolf> http://hackaday.com/2010/08/23/indestructible-ti-89/ looks like it's been done... but yours should be less brick-like.
[13:35:12] <PetefromTn_> "We don't make mistakes, we just have happy accidents" Bob Ross....
[13:36:06] <furrywolf> don't forget to instruct them in proper use of peer pressure. "ewww, you just have a plain plastic case? loo-ser!"
[13:36:24] <PetefromTn_> just what they need heh
[13:38:03] <furrywolf> hrmm, I have a co-worker here who does hydrographics... I should tell her to start dipping calculator cases in mossy oak and digital camo and selling them...
[13:39:57] <furrywolf> (dressing your kids in camo and buying them only camo accessories from they day they're born is pretty popular here)
[13:40:08] <zeeshan|2> i tack welded my boring head shank to boring head
[13:40:14] <zeeshan|2> is the screw direction normal
[13:40:20] <zeeshan|2> (rh screw) or is it lh
[13:40:26] <zeeshan|2> i forgot
[13:40:51] <furrywolf> I think everything is right-hand, but I'm not quite sure what you're asking.
[13:41:19] <renesis> how do you do digital camo?
[13:41:26] <zeeshan|2> theres right hand threads and left hand
[13:41:32] <zeeshan|2> im asking if the threads on the shank are right or left hand
[13:41:34] <renesis> stencils or print on dissolving film?
[13:41:35] <furrywolf> renesis: google will assist you there.
[13:41:47] <renesis> or you could just say
[13:41:52] <furrywolf> I did say.
[13:42:16] <CaptHindsight> renesis: on what substrate?
[13:42:17] <furrywolf> I'm guessing you skipped over the big long word.
[13:42:21] <renesis> you mentioned dip
[13:43:07] <renesis> so i was asking how you float the right angle pattern on water
[13:44:33] <furrywolf> you give someone like http://www.reaperpb.com/warpedfx/camo.htm (first google result) a nominal amount of money.
[13:45:23] <renesis> http://www.camodipkit.com/products.htm
[13:45:26] <renesis> is printed film
[13:45:42] <furrywolf> they give you a roll of film. you put the film on the water, spray it with activator, and dip your part.
[13:45:54] <renesis> furrywolf: or you just figure out how to print your own sheets
[13:47:05] <CaptHindsight> it's just PVA film, you can print on that with an inkjet
[13:47:14] <PetefromTn_> The Navy work uniforms are a cool blue digital camo I have never seen befor
[13:47:58] <PetefromTn_> really? You can make your own hydrodip panels?
[13:48:16] <furrywolf> camo is very, very popular here. :)
[13:48:16] <CaptHindsight> did the patent just expire on hydrographics or something? all of a sudden there is a buzz about it
[13:48:17] <renesis> capthindsight: cool
[13:48:27] <furrywolf> people think this area is hippies, but nope... just us rednecks. :P
[13:48:33] <renesis> furrywolf: ya there are kids wear camo jumpsuits to school
[13:48:49] <renesis> not enough trees on campus for it to work
[13:49:07] <furrywolf> the hippies are going away, now this area is mostly rednecks vs tweekers.
[13:49:11] <CaptHindsight> http://www.solublon.com/pva_film.htm
[13:49:35] <CaptHindsight> it's also all over alibaba and similar sites
[13:50:07] <trentster> What width and height do you guys use for cutting profile cuts into aluminium with a fairly small diameter bit like 1/8 Inch? Do you think a triangular tab width of 2mm wide by 2mm heigh is sufficient.
[13:50:29] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: http://www.reaperpb.com/warpedfx/patterns/wfx-camo-large/wfx-485-Tiger-Stripe-Navy-BDU.jpg ?
[13:50:54] <trentster> the aluminium stock is 12mm thick - I am trying to find the sweet spot between tab strength vs not having a ton of cleanup afterwards
[13:50:59] <PetefromTn_> yup like that but on a blue background
[13:50:59] <trentster> any suggestions
[13:52:12] <PetefromTn_> trentster what are you trying to do? full slot profile pass?
[13:53:47] <trentster> no doing about .5mm passes slow
[13:54:02] <trentster> yeah full slot
[13:54:19] <trentster> but depth of cut is tiny with each pass, so not much force
[13:54:31] <trentster> .5mm a pass
[13:55:23] <greg> 0.5mm is what I slot with 1/8"
[13:55:27] <PetefromTn_> for profiling in 6061 I usually do a full slot pass in reasonable depth steps of say .125 with a 3/8 endmill and leave a finish pass of .010 or .005" Tapered tabs work best in my experience due to the fact that the cutter never really stops just rises up so the larger the taper the better
[13:56:13] <trentster> *trenster goes to google for imperial to metric calculator
[13:56:57] <PetefromTn_> also I find that it is often BETTER to not use tabs at all and just leave a thin web at the bottom of the part and then flipping it over to champfer the other side or just deburr it with a whirlygig
[13:57:02] <greg> lol he said 3.2mm with 9.5mm endmill and 0.1- 0.2 finsih pass
[13:57:37] <PetefromTn_> yeah for the metric heads here sorry in advance LOL
[13:57:39] <trentster> greg thanks I got it
[13:57:57] <greg> one day we'll get rid of those infernal units, I'm doing my part.
[13:58:08] <trentster> one day the world will be a smart place and everyone will use metric!
[13:58:12] <trentster> :P
[13:58:16] <PetefromTn_> yeah those MM's are annoying
[13:58:27] <zeeshan|2> what is a tapered tab
[13:58:28] * Deejay slaps Pete ^^
[13:58:39] * PetefromTn_ grins
[13:59:25] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan|2 tabs are little blocks of material left in areas around the perimeter of a part to allow you to hold the part securely yet cut it out ALMOST completely
[13:59:26] <trentster> heh - I mean come on - I found out the other day a US 2 by 4 peiece of wood has actually got nothing to do with those dimensions. :O
[13:59:30] <greg> I hate setting metric radius offsets for fractional tools
[13:59:45] <trentster> it would be logical for it to be 2 something by 4 something, but its not
[13:59:47] <greg> come on it WAS 2x4 before it dried
[13:59:56] <PetefromTn_> a tapered tab is basically a triangle instead of a square shaped tab
[14:00:01] <archivist> or got planed
[14:00:08] <zeeshan|2> ah PetefromTn_
[14:00:31] <zeeshan|2> long live imperial
[14:00:44] <PetefromTn_> hear HERE
[14:00:56] <zeeshan|2> what makes more sense
[14:01:09] <zeeshan|2> the part needs to be 1 meter wide
[14:01:15] <zeeshan|2> or 3 feet wide
[14:01:15] <t12> hexidecimal part sizing
[14:01:20] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[14:01:21] <t12> the computers will take over
[14:01:25] <trentster> zeeshan-lab: one day the die hards will be gone - and a child will ask their parents - whats this inch and foot thing?
[14:01:30] <trentster> ;-)
[14:01:43] <PetefromTn_> don't count on it hehe
[14:01:43] <zeeshan|2> metric's pitfall is it's not realistic units
[14:02:19] <t12> i def find imperial easier to work in
[14:02:20] <zeeshan|2> would you rather look at your foot to get an idea of foot
[14:02:31] <zeeshan|2> or look at the wave length of krypton 86
[14:02:35] <zeeshan|2> to figure out meter? :p
[14:03:11] <t12> thou and tenth seems really easy to work in
[14:03:23] <PetefromTn_> it pains me that Star Trek uses metric measurements....
[14:03:29] <zeeshan|2> gaga
[14:03:30] <zeeshan|2> haha
[14:03:46] <CaptHindsight> a meter is about a yard
[14:03:54] <archivist> gnats cock is a fine unit of measure we should all aspire to
[14:04:00] <CaptHindsight> close enough for most people
[14:04:03] <t12> stardate 41254.7
[14:04:05] <greg> I'm convince who ever created imperial unit had 12 fingers and toes
[14:04:05] <t12> I oiled the ways
[14:04:18] <PetefromTn_> archivist I always like RCH
[14:04:32] <pcw_home> 12 is a much nicer base than 10
[14:05:02] <trentster> real question btw - do scientists in the US work in feet and miles when working out equations like speed of light and latency calculations, if so poor them - that must be painful!
[14:05:04] <CaptHindsight> metric football field, 100 meters or 91.44?
[14:05:07] <greg> to bad id didn't catch on in weights
[14:05:35] <CaptHindsight> trentster: we use SI units
[14:05:39] <zeeshan|2> trentster: no
[14:05:56] <CaptHindsight> older engineers might still use imperial for some things
[14:06:20] <zeeshan|2> trentster: on research papers i usually put si unit (imperial unit)
[14:06:25] <zeeshan|2> to cater to both
[14:06:39] <trentster> CaptHindsight: sounds logical " 1. a system of physical units ( SI units ) based on the metre, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, candela, and mole, together with a set of prefixes to indicate multiplication or division by a power of ten"
[14:06:40] <CaptHindsight> not a big deal
[14:06:43] <zeeshan|2> the imperial unit for heat transfer is nasty
[14:06:49] <trentster> now just need to do the same and get rid of inches
[14:07:24] <PetefromTn_> what's all this get rid of stuff?
[14:07:37] <os1r1s> pcw_home: That got it working. Works perfect from 0-2800 now.
[14:07:54] <carper> i still use imperial for cabinet making but quite happy using metric
[14:08:02] <trentster> PetefromTn_: is "retire" a better word
[14:08:17] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: do you freak out when handed drawing in metric?
[14:08:20] <PetefromTn_> how about we GET RID OF METRIC does that sound better
[14:08:29] <t12> death to commie units
[14:08:37] <archivist> I freak out at a ligne
[14:08:41] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight Honestly about a third of the drawings I get are metric so I am quite used to it
[14:08:42] <trentster> Leave inches where they belong - in the "adult film industry" :P
[14:08:52] <greg> I'm amused by how polarized unit discussions are
[14:09:21] <archivist> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne#Watchmaking
[14:09:21] <greg> I work in both, but always design in metric
[14:09:32] <CaptHindsight> I occasionally get some shop or fabricator that doesn't want metric files
[14:09:42] <PetefromTn_> I work in both but design in INCH whenever possible
[14:09:45] <archivist> 12 ligne to a french inch :)
[14:09:51] <CaptHindsight> or can't discuss and application in metric
[14:10:06] <CaptHindsight> has to be in thou or 10-thou
[14:10:17] <t12> i design and work in whatever the driving design's dimensions are already in
[14:10:26] <PetefromTn_> I would never do that...if it is in metric I would just convert everything myself and deal with it like I always do
[14:11:02] <PetefromTn_> then I go out back of the shop and curse and spit a bit hehe
[14:11:18] <CaptHindsight> is Australian foot ball in metric?
[14:11:55] <CaptHindsight> does that explain all the confusion? :)
[14:12:43] <trentster> lol - I think it would have been easier to talk about politics than Metric vs other inferior forms of measurement ;-)
[14:12:57] <CaptHindsight> metric alphabet
[14:13:12] <Rab> For electronics you have to be fluent in both.
[14:13:45] <PetefromTn_> inferior my ass ;)
[14:13:46] <archivist> you lot have it easy only inch and metric, those working in clocks and watches have some more units
[14:16:48] <pcw_home> Yep electronics parts use metric and inch pitches
[14:16:50] <pcw_home> both are arbitrary (our number system is also arbitrary and based on a lousy radix)
[14:17:12] <greg> Ball bearings seem to mix units on balls and race sizes. That is a metric size bearing will often have a fractional ball.
[14:17:25] <trentster> Lets just get rid of (retire for PetefromTn_ ) Pounds for now - we can tackle Inches later. Or perhaps ….
[14:18:00] <pcw_home> lets get rid of all stupid base 10 systems. metric has to go
[14:18:07] <trentster> Just get a unit of measurement for pounds that actually sound like a Pound - LB?
[14:18:08] <zeeshan|2> lol pcw
[14:18:10] <trentster> eeks
[14:18:16] <PetefromTn_> Aw now you are just getting rude...
[14:18:25] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: hes australian
[14:18:26] <trentster> Thats like calling a Meter a PN
[14:18:31] <zeeshan|2> they draw the world map upside down
[14:18:35] <zeeshan|2> to show australia is on top
[14:18:36] <renesis> mils/inches is 10^3 split, engineering units
[14:18:41] <zeeshan|2> so it's understandable :p
[14:18:42] <PetefromTn_> hell everything is upside down
[14:18:53] <renesis> mm and cm are used in the same documents a lot
[14:18:58] <PetefromTn_> the sky is falling man!
[14:19:06] <zeeshan|2> lol
[14:19:25] <trentster> ;-)
[14:19:31] <zeeshan|2> http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0071/5032/products/upside_down_2.png?v=1357282201
[14:19:35] <zeeshan|2> they even make their country in the middle
[14:19:36] <zeeshan|2> :D
[14:19:44] <zeeshan|2> too bad antartica is still above em
[14:21:21] <PetefromTn_> hell he's so far down there they need to pump in light let alone dimensional enlightenment
[14:21:33] <zeeshan|2> lol
[14:21:42] <trentster> PetefromTn_: :-)
[14:21:42] <XXCoder> who says top must be one of spin poles? lol
[14:22:30] <trentster> See its all fun - nothing to get upset about - apparently even the toilet swirls the wrong way down here when it flushes.
[14:22:46] <PetefromTn_> you have toilets?
[14:22:52] <XXCoder> and water?
[14:23:19] <trentster> Speaking of Antartica, any of you guys watch the Netflix doki "a year in Antartica" its actually very good
[14:23:41] <PetefromTn_> whaddahell is a doki?
[14:23:44] <trentster> water just arrived - its back in fashion here - who new!
[14:23:58] <zeeshan|2> WHAT
[14:24:01] <zeeshan|2> australia has toilets?
[14:24:05] <zeeshan|2> i thought it was all indigenous people
[14:24:07] <trentster> PetefromTn_: Australian for Documentary ;-)
[14:24:10] <zeeshan|2> that shat in the bush!
[14:24:17] <trentster> We tend to abbreviate abbreviations down here
[14:24:26] <PetefromTn_> ah
[14:25:29] <greg> toliet flushing study https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihv4f7VMeJw
[14:26:31] <greg> It's fun if you sync the two videos together
[14:26:54] <greg> https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2FToiletSwirl&redir_token=XZhgilmJE9g-dj5uO0SL97PRQJN8MTQzODYyODYxOEAxNDM4NTQyMjE4
[14:27:08] <XXCoder> I love the spin wrong way myth. it's because it is techinically true, yet not true. water WOULD spin wrong way yes, but not in tiolets and sinks, there is much larger force affecting those
[14:27:56] <archivist> water spin not a myth, seen a demo either side the equator
[14:28:06] <greg> they did a great job on those videos
[14:28:20] <greg> archivist, all explained in those videos
[14:29:03] <XXCoder> archivist: it isn't, that is what I said. it;'s toilet and sinks that don't, since other factors affect it too much to be changed
[14:29:34] <XXCoder> for it to be truly affected by hmm whats it called again, it has to be very still water and slowly drain
[14:29:40] <XXCoder> you will see direction of drain then
[14:30:03] <greg> yeah they did it with a kiddie pool
[14:30:07] <trentster> the most perplexing thing about that video is how the heck did he manage to get 1.5 million people to watch it.
[14:30:15] <Rab> Can you countersteer a shaft-driven motorcycle in the southern hemisphere??
[14:30:26] <greg> I like his channel
[14:30:47] <greg> I have a video with 2+million views that's even more boring
[14:30:54] <trentster> Yeah I like those kind of sciency youtube channels
[14:31:17] <XXCoder> yeah me too
[14:32:08] <trentster> This guy also has very cool stuff https://www.youtube.com/user/01032010814
[14:32:23] <trentster> and lots of subscribers
[14:32:40] <XXCoder> number of subs I dont care
[14:33:00] <trentster> Warning " don't watch his stuff with your kids or like myself you will find yourself roped into making high power blowdarts and laser canons
[14:33:01] <XXCoder> the swimming pool is nice!
[14:35:34] <SpeedEvil> I prefer https://www.youtube.com/user/JoergSprave
[14:35:44] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYMUU6jvQ2k
[14:35:53] <greg> crap I should have made HHO balloons a long time ago
[14:35:54] <SpeedEvil> Launching Tomahawks With The Slingshot
[14:36:08] <trentster> greg: wow a vid with 2 million views thats impressive - it must be soemthing cool, what is it?
[14:36:54] <greg> toy engine https://youtu.be/Ck4nID61rso
[14:37:04] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNC9gjgYrzLfyMQmp31DnjA
[14:37:09] <XXCoder> one of my favorite
[14:37:22] <XXCoder> he makes stuff, starting with casting to machine
[14:37:37] <trentster> SpeedEvil: thanks I have subscribed - the slingshot channel looks really nice as well, never knew about it
[14:38:46] <trentster> greg: thats impressive mate, even advertising revenue from that many views must start adding up.
[14:39:30] <greg> some change in the pocket, getting a 1099 from google is neat
[14:40:00] <furrywolf> http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?s=57fdc8da269ec1f652beafe7ad2d416e&attachmentid=40167&d=1389203059
[14:41:33] <SpeedEvil> :)
[14:43:09] <trentster> yeah i read the top earners from youtube channels have made like $4.7 Million from add revenue alone - thats not counting sponsors etc or product promotions.
[14:43:13] <trentster> Not chump change
[14:43:37] <greg> some people are making good money.
[14:43:56] <carper> iam working on a 9 and 18 cyl radial 4 stroke 1/6th scale still working on the solidworks drawings not touched them for 9 months due to ill healths
[14:44:58] <greg> carper, that's impressive
[14:45:58] <carper> actual flying models too not the normal static ones
[14:46:02] <greg> I like this guy too. https://www.youtube.com/user/arduinoversusevil
[14:46:28] <greg> I fly RC. do you fly any engines you built?
[14:46:51] <XXCoder> carper: have you built actual engines before?
[14:48:12] <greg> Do you read homemodelenginemachinist.com or modelenginemaker.com ?
[14:48:20] * SpeedEvil wishes ZeFrank would make more videos
[14:48:27] <SpeedEvil> (though not CNC related)
[14:48:44] <carper> ive built large engines yes mainly for motorycles
[14:48:51] <furrywolf> I can't imagine he/she would attempt an 18 cyl radial 4-stroke as a first project, so I'll go with "yes" :P
[14:49:09] <XXCoder> is there anyone at all making cnc machine and making videos?
[14:49:12] <XXCoder> carper: awesome
[14:49:30] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: Do you mean making CNC machines, or making stuff with them?
[14:49:36] <XXCoder> former
[14:49:47] <greg> I have an FS-120S that I'm converting to gas glow with the OS G5 plug. I hope to machine a new backplate and crab mount today.
[14:50:07] <XXCoder> carper: ever made any stirling engines? lol
[14:50:15] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eifVwXr7AGk - reminds me of
[14:50:26] <SpeedEvil> Making your own ball bearing cages
[14:51:32] <carper> https://plus.google.com/113115123142985062127/posts some of the solidworks drawings
[14:51:35] <greg> it's interesting to watch some of those guys make progress. I just saw tactcal keychains has an older robodrill and a pair of gang tool althes now
[14:52:03] <furrywolf> ... tactical keychains?
[14:52:20] <SpeedEvil> I want a strategic keychain.
[14:52:24] <trentster> XXCoder: the grunblau cnc machine is awesome and his assembly videos are some of the best I have seen. He seems to be an engineer and a designer so his stuff is gorgeous and well designed.
[14:52:45] <XXCoder> looking for it, thanks
[14:52:51] <greg> https://www.youtube.com/user/TacticalKeychains/videos
[14:53:08] <trentster> In fact If a friend asked me about building a machine I would tell him to buy one of those, there is just no way the average joe could design something like that
[14:53:50] <XXCoder> trentster: I love people who show multiple speed when fast forwarding videos
[14:53:58] <furrywolf> have a non-video page?
[14:54:04] <trentster> XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/user/GrunblauBMO/videos
[14:54:24] <trentster> he also has an amazing Self made cnc drag knife there, its on my To Do list
[14:54:41] * furrywolf has a hard time imagining a keychain being tactical
[14:54:51] <XXCoder> anything cn be tactical
[14:54:54] <furrywolf> that's even worse than my flashlight that claims to be "tactical" because it has an annoying flash mode.
[14:55:04] <trentster> furrywolf: yeah http://www.grunblau.com/PlatformCNC.htm
[14:55:40] <XXCoder> trentster: that site has bad case of white virus
[14:55:48] <XXCoder> I can just barely read text
[14:56:01] <zeeshan|2> you can't trust a design studio to build a proper cnc machine
[14:56:04] <zeeshan|2> my 5c
[14:56:05] <zeeshan|2> ;]
[14:56:32] <trentster> zeeshan-lab: I think he is an engineer + designer which is a good combination
[14:56:38] <greg> his product is interesting, I just can't see myslef spending that kind of money on it. But he's doing well for himself it seems. http://tacticalkeychains.com/
[14:57:21] <trentster> his machine does 300 ipm and is pretty strong
[14:57:26] <trentster> check it out for yourself
[14:58:01] <zeeshan|2> it looks good
[14:58:05] <zeeshan|2> my comment was meant to be ignorant
[14:58:20] <furrywolf> XXCoder: agreed. that site sucks.
[14:58:48] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I'm just glad white virus is fading. only few sites has that problem nowdays.
[14:58:49] <furrywolf> why the fuck would anyone want to read light grey text on a white background?
[14:59:23] <furrywolf> and, why not just NOT SET A COLOR, and let the browser display it in the color I have set? heh
[14:59:35] <pcw_home> kickback from optometrists?
[14:59:42] <XXCoder> maybe pcw_home lol
[15:00:21] <zeeshan|2> im gonna make sure when i make a real website
[15:00:26] <zeeshan|2> i show it to furrywolf
[15:00:30] <zeeshan|2> if he hates it, i know i did a good job
[15:00:34] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: 1990s style
[15:00:34] <zeeshan|2> :D
[15:00:41] <XXCoder> dont forget flashing gifs
[15:00:50] <zeeshan|2> dude furry can't even handle images
[15:00:54] <XXCoder> don't include ANY picture unless its in motion
[15:00:56] <zeeshan|2> you'd need to transform them to ascii art
[15:00:56] <renesis> gifs will never die
[15:00:58] <renesis> so fucked
[15:01:02] <zeeshan|2> :D
[15:01:02] <XXCoder> <blink> everywhere
[15:01:06] <zeeshan|2> haha
[15:01:07] <renesis> heh, aalib ftw
[15:01:28] <renesis> i used to watch ascii porn on a tiny font framebuffer terminal
[15:01:44] <XXCoder> what the hell
[15:01:50] <XXCoder> site has depost priced at $360
[15:01:57] <XXCoder> but no final price listed ANYWHERE
[15:02:07] <XXCoder> for all I know it's billion bucks
[15:02:40] <greg> says 1960 just above the paypal button?
[15:02:48] <carper> i have all the components to build a hotwire foam cutter with a 3.3mtr x 1.2m x 1m not threaded rod but ball screws when iam up to building it, just getting over lymes disease
[15:02:48] <XXCoder> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/grunblau-platform-cnc-parts-bundle-p-219.html
[15:02:53] <XXCoder> MUCH more readable
[15:03:06] <XXCoder> greg: white virus strikes. thanks
[15:03:50] <greg> I've thought about a hot wire cutter, but am out of space.
[15:04:19] <ffurrywol> stupid connection.
[15:06:32] <ffurrywol> http://tacticalkeychains.com/?product=mini-tikey-tipik LOL. so by "tactical" they mean "for tweekers"?
[15:07:42] <renesis> most people i know who are into lock picking are stoners and glass hippies
[15:07:52] <carper64> just having a second workshop built 30 x 20 ft for my foam cutter,router and maybe a scratch built spindle grinder.
[15:08:00] <renesis> tweakers just take everything apart
[15:08:20] <renesis> carper64: neat
[15:09:18] <ffurrywol> I think my Sog Powerlock is far more "tactical" than anything on that page, and I always have it with me.
[15:09:21] <ffurrywol> SOG
[15:10:42] <syyl> i want tactical calipers
[15:10:43] <syyl> :(
[15:12:03] <ffurrywol> http://www.sogknives.com/powerlock-satin.html highly recommended if you're looking for things to keep in your pockets.
[15:13:46] <trentster> Whats possible with a pen and a cnc machine and lots and lots of vector lines truly stunning art.
[15:13:47] <trentster> http://mlyon.com/
[15:14:02] <trentster> must take him days to run these jobs on a cnc router
[15:14:02] <Rab> syyl, tactical black dial, won't kill your night vision: http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/00693218
[15:14:37] <syyl> i have btw some respect for the tac-keychain guy
[15:14:48] <syyl> he started out with no machining background
[15:14:54] <syyl> and makes now a living with that stuff
[15:15:05] <syyl> nice, Rab
[15:15:07] <syyl> ;)
[15:15:42] <XXCoder> I cant find link for tacical keychain
[15:15:58] <syyl> http://tacticalkeychains.com/
[15:16:31] <ffurrywol> as I said, I like my SOG far more than I like anything on that page. :P
[15:17:05] <syyl> oh not to question that
[15:17:13] <syyl> i prefer my wave as well :D
[15:17:30] <ffurrywol> try a SOG instead. you'll never touch a leatherman again. :P
[15:17:40] <XXCoder> link, ffurrywol ?
[15:17:45] <greg> right, but this guy is making a living, I'm always interested in what people do to make their moeny.
[15:19:05] <furrywolf> XXCoder: http://www.sogknives.com/powerlock-satin.html they also have several other styles, including spring-loaded blades, if you prefer.
[15:19:40] <XXCoder> looks nice
[15:20:04] <furrywolf> they have compound leverage, like a pair of tin snips, with two sets of pivot points... much better for gripping things.
[15:20:08] <PetefromTn_> I should make that drag knife thingy
[15:20:17] <Rab> furrywolf, this website looks like garbage without jawascript.
[15:20:45] <PetefromTn_> jawa?
[15:21:07] <furrywolf> it looks pretty bad with it, too.
[15:21:26] <greg> i carry an Access Card 2.0
[15:23:24] <furrywolf> I've tried leatherman, gerber, victorinox, and SOG... the SOG is definitely the best, in my opinion.
[15:23:46] <furrywolf> the supertool is second-best, but it breaks too easily, and still has the fit-and-finish issues leatherman has had ever since they moved to mexico.
[15:25:03] <furrywolf> the gerber is uncomfortable and the sliding pliers design just isn't as good, but they do have the carbide insert wire cutters.
[15:25:22] <furrywolf> the victorinox is shiny, smooth, polished... and useless.
[15:25:53] <renesis> thats how you sell things make money!
[15:25:57] <renesis> =\
[15:26:08] <syyl> the sog design is the most stupid thing in the world
[15:26:17] <syyl> why have the tools to be inside the handle?
[15:26:22] <syyl> and covered by those flaps?
[15:26:38] <furrywolf> the victorinox is well-built, but too light-duty.
[15:26:54] <syyl> the victorinox is like a supertool
[15:26:54] <syyl> Oo
[15:26:58] <syyl> at least mine :D
[15:27:33] <syyl> i stopped carrying it because it lacks the one hand opening blades
[15:27:48] <Rab> syyl, grip comfort is not to be underestimated IMO. I find most multitools to be really painful as pliers.
[15:28:00] <furrywolf> syyl: the flaps are optional (I keep mind off), and having them inside the handle keeps lint out, etc. it sounds like you'd be happier with some of their other models, like http://www.sogknives.com/powerassist-satin.html
[15:28:03] <syyl> when i need my multitool
[15:28:06] <syyl> i need it fast :D
[15:28:11] <Rab> So the flaps look awkward, but they address that problem.
[15:28:14] <syyl> otherwise i can use the propper tool
[15:28:26] <syyl> i need a blade *right now*
[15:28:35] <syyl> or needlenose pliers *right now*
[15:28:49] <furrywolf> syyl: which is why they make the one I just pasted, where the blades are spring-loaded, and open with the tool closed. :P
[15:28:51] <renesis> the flaps look clunky to use
[15:29:06] <renesis> would have to try them to see if they actually make the handles more comfy
[15:29:17] <furrywolf> yes. which is why I keep mine off.
[15:29:18] <furrywolf> they snap on
[15:29:21] <syyl> the powerassist looks like
[15:29:25] <syyl> "i dont want to use it"
[15:29:28] <furrywolf> they do make the handles more comfy, but I have tough redneck hands, and the compound leverage means you need a lot less grip force.
[15:29:31] <syyl> realy :D
[15:29:51] <renesis> mostly i think its the straight angled handles that make them uncomfortable
[15:30:06] <furrywolf> the victorinox looked like I'd break it the first time I used it. :P
[15:30:14] <furrywolf> someone I know has one, and it's good for looking pretty.
[15:30:15] <syyl> hrm
[15:30:20] <syyl> i have kinda big hands
[15:30:31] <syyl> and the victorinox looks like a tool in there
[15:30:46] <syyl> not like a toy that i have to baby
[15:31:05] <furrywolf> the SOG is substantially larger and thicker
[15:31:44] <furrywolf> especially in the pliers department
[15:32:37] <furrywolf> I want to make my own multitool one of these days, but I still haven't perfected the pliers mechanism I want to use.
[15:33:03] <furrywolf> I want over-center locking, but in a compact yet strong package.
[15:33:35] <furrywolf> unlike the locking leatherman which is just a pair of vise grips with square handles...
[15:34:09] <greg> i didn't know about swisstool
[15:35:30] <greg> i've carry the same Tinker for 22 years
[15:35:35] <furrywolf> a friend had the gerbers since they kept giving them to him in the army, but they broke constantly, the sliding pliers would collapse and mangle your hand, they were uncomfortable,... but they did have the carbide wire cutters. except if you wanted a wood saw. then you couldn't get the carbide cutters. because they only have really stupid feature combinations...
[15:38:57] <PetefromTn_> I carry one of those folding utility blade lockback knives... had all sorts of knives and multitools and really got tired of having a blade that will not cut or that gets damaged so easily..
[15:39:48] <furrywolf> I have one of those too... and I always keep an Irwin Blue blade in it. they seem to suck the least. heh.
[15:40:27] <furrywolf> it's good for cutting things. it's bad for gripping things, turning screws, etc. :)
[15:42:24] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: the annoying problem with DIY is you really want to forge it
[15:42:38] <PetefromTn_> yeah when I need to do that I grab a pair of pliers or a screwdriver ;)
[15:42:58] <XXCoder> never found multitools useful
[15:43:08] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: how about when you're in your vehicle? someone else's vehicle? in a store? on a hike? somewhere outside on your property? at someone else's house? etc :P
[15:44:03] <PetefromTn_> Well like XXcoder said I never saw one of those multitools that was worth a damn and I have had a few of them. They might do one or two things decent but most things are just gimmicky
[15:44:45] <furrywolf> I use mine dozens of times. a day.
[15:45:11] <PetefromTn_> I did have one that had a 1/4 inch drive tool socket on it that you could put actual screw bits in that was at least useful
[15:45:22] <furrywolf> even if I'm home, it's quicker to flip it open than to walk to where a tool might be. :)
[15:45:30] <PetefromTn_> and the pliers are decent on most of them
[15:45:39] <syyl> and all nuts on your stuff are rounded over? ;)
[15:46:21] <furrywolf> syyl: no, the compound leverage makes sure they grip tight enough not to slip. :P
[15:46:35] <syyl> and you can always come back with vise grips
[15:46:38] <syyl> to finish them ;)
[15:46:47] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: my SOG has a driver for 1/4" drive sockets. if you want to drive 1/4" hex bits, they have an adapter. www.sogknives.com/type/accessories/hex-bit-accessory-kit.html
[15:47:01] <furrywolf> syyl: see above. includes a socket driver. :P
[15:47:04] <syyl> bevor i turn only one woodscrew in by hand
[15:47:10] <syyl> i walk and get my cordless
[15:47:13] <syyl> realy :D
[15:47:14] <Deejay> before
[15:47:21] <syyl> stfu ;)
[15:47:27] <Deejay> really
[15:47:30] <Deejay> ^^
[15:47:31] <syyl> !
[15:47:48] <furrywolf> lol
[15:47:56] <furrywolf> shouldn't you be in bed? :P
[15:48:03] <PetefromTn_> maybe the one I had was a sog then I don't remember
[15:48:25] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: a couple of them have drivers for 1/4" hex bits. leatherman comes to mind first.
[15:48:45] <XXCoder> yeah leatherman is everywhere
[15:48:49] <XXCoder> even behind you
[15:48:52] <PetefromTn_> I know I had a gerber two of them actually and a leathermen and and
[15:49:04] <syyl> the funny thing is
[15:49:09] <syyl> whatever multitool you take
[15:49:19] <syyl> compare it to a proper tool
[15:49:22] <syyl> and you laugh :D
[15:49:58] <furrywolf> syyl: I use the pliers in my SOG in preference to actual pliers. the compound leverage rocks. :P
[15:50:11] <syyl> get a set of knipex wirecutters
[15:50:14] <syyl> and tell me again
[15:50:27] <syyl> cut 3mm piano wire
[15:50:49] <furrywolf> they have good wire cutters too. last week I was cutting barbed wire with them, cleaning up a friend's yard.
[15:51:43] <furrywolf> 3mm is probably about their limit for piano wire. I haven't kept track of what thickness hard wire I've cut with the hard-wire cutter they have.
[15:51:54] <furrywolf> I cut a bicycle cable housing once.
[15:53:55] <furrywolf> now here's a tool question... I want a GOOD machette. suggestions?
[15:54:23] <furrywolf> one that both springs AND holds an edge AND has a good large comfortable for big hands swinging it hard.
[15:55:27] <furrywolf> handle
[15:55:52] <furrywolf> and it must be made in either USA or a south-american jungle country. absolutely not china.
[15:56:00] <furrywolf> I am sick of chinese machettes. all garbage.
[15:56:17] <furrywolf> I think the one I have now is a corona, and it works, but it's still not ideal.
[15:58:00] <furrywolf> and I like a bit of blade weight, especially towards the tip.
[16:00:08] <PetefromTn_> sounds like you need to get a big chunk of blade steel and whittle yourself one up
[16:01:27] <syyl> i prefer the gas powered one Oo
[16:02:42] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: a friend did that, from a truck leaf spring. :P
[16:03:03] <furrywolf> anneal, grind, temper, cut.
[16:03:04] <XXCoder> I recently watched one where guy makes one knife from drill bit
[16:03:47] <furrywolf> syyl: you can clear blackberries with a machete just as fast as with a string trimmer.
[16:04:00] <PetefromTn_> I like the one where the guy makes the cool ring from a penny LOL
[16:04:50] <furrywolf> probably faster, actually.
[16:06:36] <PetefromTn_> hacking apart beatiful delicious blackberry bushes seems VERY WRONG to me man...
[16:07:13] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: clearly you don't live in an area where they take over everywhere they can.
[16:07:38] <furrywolf> here they grow with stems an inch thick, 30ft long, over your house, over your trees, over your cars,...
[16:07:58] <PetefromTn_> I pay like $5.00 for a tiny box of these beauties around here man so my wife can make them with home made whipped cream for desert~~
[16:08:34] <furrywolf> how's this for a deal: you can pick all my berries FREE as long as you take the plants with you. :P
[16:09:03] <furrywolf> they're a noxious weed here.
[16:09:06] <PetefromTn_> Shit I would if I could afford the trip and had a way to preserve them so they are juicy and fresh for perpetuity
[16:09:46] <PetefromTn_> next to cheesecake it is one of my favorite deserts!
[16:10:00] <furrywolf> ... blackberry cheesecake would combine both. :P
[16:10:31] <Deejay> gn8
[16:12:01] <ThisSucks> Great, now I'm craving cheesecake.
[16:12:06] <furrywolf> me too
[16:15:18] <furrywolf> hrmm, how does 440 stainless work for a machete? I always figured stainless would just dent if you hit anything hard with it...
[16:16:09] <ThisSucks> 440 is about the best grade of SS for cutlery.
[16:17:55] <PetefromTn_> LOL just watched some video of the Rhonda Rousey fight.... JEEZ that girl would so kick my ass easily ROFL
[16:18:01] <furrywolf> I just don't usually thing of SS as being up to machete duty...
[16:18:18] <greg> Is there anyone in the US selling 40mm 90° indexable face mills, other than the 400USD priced ones from the big names? It needs to fit a 16mm arbor.
[16:18:38] <PetefromTn_> no we only sell imperial endmills ;)
[16:18:54] <ThisSucks> edge retention sucks compared to something like D2
[16:19:01] * furrywolf likes strong women, but doesn't tend to fight with them either...
[16:19:28] <PetefromTn_> heh that is one STRONG woman...not half bad looking either
[16:19:41] <greg> petefromTN, yes even the people that buy from china only seem to sell imperial sizes, i checked shars.
[16:20:07] <PetefromTn_> ya think there is a reason for that? ;)
[16:24:20] <furrywolf> why are at least half the machetes currently made branded after idiots on tv? lol
[16:25:05] <SpeedEvil> There have to be really good chinese machetes
[16:25:06] <PetefromTn_> don't you know branding with idiots sells!!
[16:25:14] <SpeedEvil> I mean - bamboo is a thing
[16:25:39] <greg> only thing uncommon about what i'm looking for is the 40mm size, very small for a face mill
[16:25:47] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: -grylls improves searches quite a bit. :)
[16:25:56] <PetefromTn_> I used to have a cheap home depot machete that I must admit to enjoying using to hack apart some parts of the shrubs on our house back when we bought it. there was something CAVEMAN about it..
[16:26:35] <PetefromTn_> or perhaps it was somewhat Crocodile Dundee
[16:26:48] <PetefromTn_> I dunno but I can dig it...;)
[16:26:55] <furrywolf> lol
[16:27:04] <XXCoder> lol
[16:27:05] <PetefromTn_> you actually can dig with it but its not good for the edge I hear LOL
[16:28:28] <furrywolf> I used mine to remove some 1.5" thick willow saplings recently... :P
[16:30:12] <furrywolf> with a sharp edge and a good swing, you can mow them down like grass...
[16:31:07] <PetefromTn_> with a sharp edge and a good swing you can probably mow down about anything with one heh
[16:36:15] <furrywolf> too many survival machetes with short blades... I want 18". heh.
[16:36:46] <syyl> still not in the shop making one? ;)
[16:36:53] <ThisSucks> Fiskars is 22"
[16:37:35] <ThisSucks> But it's Finnish so not good enough, eh?
[16:37:44] <PetefromTn_> ThisSucks What sucks?
[16:38:14] <syyl> if one knows about axes and knifes
[16:38:21] <syyl> then its the nordish guys :D
[16:38:34] <ThisSucks> PetefromTn: Finnish machetes
[16:38:40] <PetefromTn_> aah
[16:39:13] <furrywolf> I got a pair of Fiskars pruning shears. they broke the first time I used them. I was not impressed. spent good money on them too.
[16:39:42] <furrywolf> bypass loppers, hand-held... the blades caught on each other, mushing both blades, ruining it.
[16:41:51] <ThisSucks> Perhaps something with on moving parts will serve better...
[16:41:56] <ThisSucks> on=no
[16:42:04] <furrywolf> the fiskars machete seems to have piss-poor ratings. I've never seen something with only 2 stars. ool
[16:42:05] <furrywolf> lol
[16:44:41] <furrywolf> "After about 6-7 weeds (milkweed & other "soft" targets) the blade was bent like aluminum foil...it struggled to cut the thinest of weeds also. So in my opinion it's junk but it is cheap...it will make a great Halloween prop!"
[16:45:05] <furrywolf> "I have purchased other Fiskars items such as the axes and have had great experiances with them. HOWEVER this tool is worthless after just 2hrs of brush clearing... its main impact area is bent"
[16:45:26] <furrywolf> "Blade is thin and as flimsy as any $5 Chinese flea market machete. Within 30 minutes of first use it had bent repeatedly and permanently. The steel is just junk."
[16:45:42] <furrywolf> "Soft, poor choice of metal. No edge. Totally worthless. Any $5.00 machete is a better choice. "
[16:45:44] <furrywolf> etc, etc, etc.
[16:45:50] <furrywolf> so... no. I'm not getting the Fiskars one.
[16:46:06] * PetefromTn_ thinks furrywolf should spend less money of fiskars stuff and other expensive blade type items and spend more on a nice big mill and lathe :D
[16:46:31] <XXCoder> ool = OHH out loud
[16:46:39] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: see, a machete actually does something useful, while a mill only does something fun...
[16:46:48] <PetefromTn_> I beg to differ
[16:46:53] <furrywolf> thus the budget for machetes exceeds the budget for mills.
[16:46:53] <XXCoder> furrywolf: can always make knifes out of drill bits like that guy LOL
[16:47:09] <furrywolf> XXCoder: a friend made a really nice machete out of a leaf spring.
[16:47:11] <PetefromTn_> I can make a lot more useful schtuff with my mill than I could ever do with a machete
[16:47:27] <furrywolf> XXCoder: annealed it, flattened it, ground it to the shape he wanted, re-heat-treated it...
[16:49:12] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FPatVoQh8g&feature=youtu.be heh not bad for a pellet rifle
[16:49:47] <SpeedEvil> PetefromTn_: I have idly been considering putting up a rail to run an automated hedgetrimmer on.
[16:50:12] <PetefromTn_> better yet an RC drone with a hedgetrimmer on it!
[16:50:26] <furrywolf> seems to be getting hard to find ANYTHING quality these days... even formerly-big-name manufacturers are just sticking stickers on chinese shit.
[16:50:47] <PetefromTn_> that is how you make money it seems in todays world
[16:50:49] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: really big laser. perfectly straight cuts all down the length of the hedge. :)
[16:50:51] * syyl has no pr
[16:50:58] * syyl has no problem to find quality tools
[16:51:03] <syyl> the cost, yes
[16:51:23] <syyl> but a pair of mitutoyo digital calipers will last me a very long time :)
[16:51:53] <PetefromTn_> got my Mitutoyo IP67 8" calipers with carbide anvils....LOVE IT!!
[16:51:55] <furrywolf> the Kershaw seems to have better reviews than most machetes, but it's still chinese and people still break them...
[16:52:14] <syyl> seems like its more a problem with the people using them
[16:52:19] <furrywolf> I had a mitutoyo thickness gauge. I lent it to someone. I no longer have any mitutoyo products.
[16:52:33] <syyl> as with cars
[16:52:39] <syyl> problem between steering wheel and seat
[16:53:02] <furrywolf> heh. if Subaru made a machete, I'd buy it!
[16:53:30] <PetefromTn_> you'd probably be the only one hehehe
[16:54:18] <furrywolf> my subaru cars show a lot of thought went into designing them well.
[16:54:18] <furrywolf> I'd like a knife designed the same way.
[16:54:45] <PetefromTn_> I guess I would like a Suzuki Samurai Machete then ;)
[16:54:58] <syyl> a bit tippy? :D
[16:55:06] <PetefromTn_> Oh wait I guess that would be a SAMURAI SWORD!!
[16:55:24] <PetefromTn_> syyl thats a myth
[16:55:31] <syyl> but a fun one ;)
[16:55:42] <PetefromTn_> yeah it got a lot of mileage
[16:56:13] <PetefromTn_> but I have had about seven different suzuki samurai's and most were lifted quite high and I drove them everywhere on and off road...
[16:56:26] <PetefromTn_> only flopped it on the side once ;)
[16:56:55] <PetefromTn_> then we pushed it back onto its wheels and drove away down the next trail
[16:57:02] <furrywolf> why do reviews spend so much time babbling about the sheath the knife came in? I don't give a fuck about the throw-away piece of plastic/nylon/leather, I want a working knife!
[16:57:06] <PetefromTn_> hardly dented it
[16:57:42] <syyl> then watch nutnfancy
[16:57:57] <syyl> he will give you the right ammount of non-information
[16:58:10] <syyl> if you can stand the crap he blurps out
[16:58:21] * rabbitfoo wonders if this is the right place for linuxcnc discussions...
[16:58:47] <syyl> i sold my cnc ;)
[16:59:21] <PetefromTn_> rabbitfoo it varies
[16:59:37] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: no, I think today this is #machetes #chicago and #toyengines. :P
[17:00:42] <rabbitfoo> OK... Just wondering if it was the effort to retrofit a bridgeport mill
[17:01:25] <Loetmichel2> rabbitfoo: missing a word in your sentence?
[17:01:26] <rabbitfoo> it already has ballscrews/motors/stuff fitted, but the old control is dead.
[17:01:32] <PetefromTn_> I guess that depends on how much you like the bridgeport LOL
[17:01:40] <rabbitfoo> OK... Just wondering if it was WORTH the effort to retrofit a bridgeport mill
[17:01:43] <syyl> just wanted to ask if its already an cnc machine
[17:01:47] <furrywolf> if it already has the mechanical bits, then it's definitely worth it.
[17:01:53] <Loetmichel2> a briodgeport miss ia a small knee mill isnt it?
[17:02:00] <Loetmichel2> mill
[17:02:18] <PetefromTn_> some of the bridgeport mills have some crazy proprietary millhead motors that are tougher to get power to
[17:02:43] <furrywolf> if your existing servo drives are still good and usable without the control, retrofitting it will be pretty cheap too.
[17:02:46] <PetefromTn_> I am talking about the larger CNC knee mills
[17:03:13] <Loetmichel2> google photos says ists aboutz the size of a deckel fp1
[17:03:16] <Loetmichel2> is that right?
[17:03:20] <PetefromTn_> I have a neighbor who owns a CNC EDM shop that has one that he is practically begging me to retrofit for him...
[17:03:54] <Loetmichel2> i would say thats worth a retrofit IF the ways are good to go
[17:04:02] <rabbitfoo> machine like this one: http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/
[17:04:07] <Loetmichel2> if they are worn: trash it ;)
[17:04:44] <Roguish> PerefromTn: is the bp knee mill a 'series II' ?
[17:05:36] <PetefromTn_> the one he has is yeah I think so
[17:05:41] <Roguish> if it's 'worn' don't trash it. you may not get micron accuracy, but it's 5000 pounds of good iron and steel. crazy solid!
[17:05:42] <rabbitfoo> I *think* so
[17:05:51] <PetefromTn_> its not mine
[17:06:09] <Roguish> i have one in my garage/shop with linuxcnc running.
[17:06:22] <PetefromTn_> yeah I hear they are a beast of a mill
[17:06:50] <Roguish> old tape drive dc motor motors with my lmd18200 drives.
[17:07:12] <Loetmichel2> Roguish: ok, i revise that: if its ways are worn badly: give it so someone with the patience to scrape them
[17:07:23] <Loetmichel2> ... but dont try to make it a CNC
[17:07:29] <Roguish> 4hp spindle.
[17:08:05] <Loetmichel2> i have seen one in action a few years ago
[17:08:12] <Roguish> Loetmichel2: like I said, it may not hold super tight accuracies, but it's a very good mill.
[17:08:19] <Loetmichel2> but supposedly an older model, smaller and more "round"
[17:08:26] <rabbitfoo> Slides are good, and it used to do half thou precision before the control died.
[17:08:28] <furrywolf> Loetmichel2: it's already CNC. it just has a bad control. read what he said!
[17:08:33] <Loetmichel2> impressive but too small for my tastes
[17:08:37] <Roguish> mine was originally an nc with stepper motors.
[17:08:54] <Loetmichel2> furrywolf: must have overseen that
[17:08:55] <Loetmichel2> sorry
[17:08:57] <PetefromTn_> what model is it?
[17:09:15] <PetefromTn_> ya know so we don't have to guess
[17:09:31] <Loetmichel2> if the mottrs and ancoders are still good one can use a PC with linuxCNC and some mesa cards and retrofit it for small schange.
[17:09:41] <rabbitfoo> Series 2 Interact II with (dead) TNC145
[17:09:47] <Loetmichel2> IF the drivers are ok with that
[17:10:20] <Loetmichel2> motors and encoders... my typos reach a new high in the last few weeks... :-(
[17:10:34] <rabbitfoo> Encoders are/were a problem - 125 line with 11uA interface
[17:11:23] <andypugh> ICHaus or EXE might help there
[17:11:47] <furrywolf> are the servo drives separate from the computer part and still good?
[17:12:00] <rabbitfoo> nah. Got some renco encoders to fit ;)
[17:13:00] <rabbitfoo> servo drives *should* be OK
[17:13:09] <furrywolf> googling shows that control was pretty useless even from the factory. lol
[17:13:32] <ThisSucks> You could get a lot done with it
[17:13:41] <ThisSucks> I used to run one
[17:13:42] <Roguish> interesting. that mill has the quill motorized. mine has the knee motorized.
[17:13:50] <furrywolf> in that case, give Mesa a few bucks (ask pcw_home for suggestions on which boards you need), and it should be an easy retrofit.
[17:14:44] <rabbitfoo> I was going to use the original IO board (maybe with a mesa card), but....
[17:14:49] <furrywolf> "145 is a 2 1/2 axis, does not do helical or 3d contouring" also has a 1000 line limit, so you can't send anything complex to it anyway. so, not useless, but definitely limited in features.
[17:15:42] <rabbitfoo> TNC145 *did* helical moves *IF* you programmed it right
[17:15:53] <syyl> and it did dnc
[17:16:04] <syyl> so you could run programs as big as you want
[17:17:14] <furrywolf> googling shows that's a pretty popular mill to retrofit, and the original control was pretty unreliable.
[17:17:28] <rabbitfoo> It could do waterline cuts, and if you broke the file down to 1000 lines, quite complex stuff
[17:17:38] <Roguish> Mesanet 7I80HD and 7I33 and 7I37
[17:17:58] <syyl> that would be the first unreliable heidenhain control :)
[17:18:11] <furrywolf> wait, wait, I'm doing this entirely wrong.
[17:18:20] <rabbitfoo> but as the control is dead, that is of little interest now.
[17:18:33] <syyl> yes rabbitfoo
[17:18:37] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: no, it's not worth retrofitting, and that mill isn't worth anything more than scrap metal.... I'll give you $200 and haul it off for you.
[17:18:46] <Roguish> know what happens to a Heidenhain control when you pull the battery out and shut it down?
[17:18:56] <Roguish> It reverts to German.
[17:18:57] <rabbitfoo> yes thanks.
[17:19:00] <syyl> but you you might be able to sell it for a good price
[17:19:25] <rabbitfoo> +metal - Yours if you pay shipping
[17:19:47] <rabbitfoo> $20K
[17:19:52] <syyl> over to germany? na, we have enough of those ;)
[17:20:15] <furrywolf> lol
[17:20:35] <syyl> HH is not to far from here located
[17:20:47] <rabbitfoo> Issues against using linuxcnc:
[17:21:03] <rabbitfoo> would need custom firmware for the mesa card
[17:21:14] <furrywolf> why's that?
[17:21:20] <syyl> dont think so Oo
[17:21:23] <rabbitfoo> would then need custom software driver
[17:21:28] <furrywolf> the mesa cards are very flexible and expandable.
[17:21:37] <furrywolf> eh?
[17:21:57] <rabbitfoo> would then need custom software driver IF I used custom firmware
[17:22:12] <furrywolf> why would you need custom firmware?
[17:22:37] <andypugh> It probably doesn’t need custom firmware, but if it did, it’s not a huge problem.
[17:24:04] <furrywolf> googling shows other people doing it entirely with stock hardware...
[17:25:34] <rabbitfoo> Need 24 digital outputs and 19 digital inputs
[17:25:55] <rabbitfoo> plus encoder & analog outputs
[17:26:16] <furrywolf> that sounds like standard mesa products to me.
[17:26:37] <andypugh> 7i77 + extra IO card on the second connector.
[17:26:38] <furrywolf> pcw_home can tell you exactly which ones to get to do that with the minimal number of parts.
[17:27:13] <Roguish> Mesanet 7I80HD and 7I33 and 7I37
[17:27:40] <furrywolf> another person used a 5i20, 7i33, and 7i37.
[17:28:11] <Roguish> My series II runs on just that, 5i20, 7i33 and 7i37
[17:29:03] * furrywolf wonders if Roguish is John by any chance
[17:29:13] <Roguish> no, NO.
[17:29:30] <furrywolf> ok, so there's at least two people with that board combination. :P
[17:29:47] <Roguish> furrywolf: u referring to big john T?
[17:29:57] <rabbitfoo> 7i37 does not provide enough IO
[17:30:21] <furrywolf> Roguish: no, I just found some web page on a series II conversion that used those boards, and was wondering if it was your page.
[17:30:21] <andypugh> I would use the 5i24 rather than 5i20 nowadays, smaller, more powerful, cheaper.
[17:30:53] <Roguish> i like to 7i37 'cause it's isolated. i'm pretty good at letting magic smoke out of anything/everything.
[17:30:55] <andypugh> Or the 5i25 + 7i77
[17:31:47] <Roguish> the short of it all is that it's a very easy convert. and well worth it.
[17:31:51] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: the 7i77 probably does most of what you need, and you can plug an i/o board into it if you need more.
[17:32:26] <furrywolf> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=120
[17:33:08] <Roguish> furrywolf: sadly I have never documented my conversion. might get to that some day.
[17:33:18] <furrywolf> "6 Axis of analog servo motor drives and also provides 48 isolated I/O points for general purpose field I/O use."
[17:34:15] <andypugh> Thats 32 inputs and 16 outputs, but he said he needed 19 outputs
[17:35:17] <pcw_home> you could use the 5I25's P2 TTL outputs for the last 3 if 5V signals were enough
[17:35:26] <rabbitfoo> To be honest, IO card is not a problem - Got a PCI card with three 8255 chips on it.
[17:35:34] <furrywolf> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69_70&product_id=113 would give you another 48 pins. :)
[17:35:36] <andypugh> But there is a smart-serial port on the 7i77 to add a http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=83_88&product_id=123
[17:36:50] <furrywolf> pcw_home: you seem to be out of stock on a lot... get those minions back to work. :)
[17:38:00] <rabbitfoo> If I don't use the TNC IO card, would need 24V tolerant IO
[17:38:29] <rabbitfoo> because that is what all the contactors & relays use
[17:38:29] <pcw_home> minions all left 50K and fully paid health plan was not enough in SFBA
[17:39:08] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: 7i77 " Inputs can sense 5V to 32V signals and the outputs can switch 5V through 28V signals."
[17:39:35] <furrywolf> SFBA? san francisco bay area?
[17:40:00] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: 7i77 IO is 32V in and 28V out
[17:40:21] <furrywolf> $50k+benefits would be a REALLY GOOD job here.
[17:40:25] <rabbitfoo> one more problem with buying mesa stuff new...
[17:40:31] <furrywolf> that's double my income, and no benefits...
[17:40:44] <PetefromTn_> shit I'd be your minion for that much hehe
[17:41:01] <rabbitfoo> -ENOMONEY
[17:41:24] <furrywolf> yeah, that's my errno a lot these days...
[17:41:52] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: You might be able to seel the Heidenahin spares for more than the price of Mesa (Or Pico, or General Mechantronics, or Motenc) stuff
[17:41:58] <rabbitfoo> and shipping mesa stuff to EU is just too damned expensive
[17:42:17] <andypugh> Ah, a virginmedia user.
[17:42:32] <furrywolf> yeah, I saw someone say they got enough selling the broken original controller to more than pay for the machine.
[17:42:35] <rabbitfoo> We all gotta start somewhere
[17:42:48] <pcw_home> there are some EU dealers (Mastor, Duzi etc)
[17:42:50] <andypugh> No, just trying to guess where you were
[17:43:01] <PetefromTn_> how could shipping to you be that expensive?
[17:43:06] <rabbitfoo> London, up a bit
[17:43:23] <rabbitfoo> then a bit to the left
[17:43:24] <furrywolf> pcw_home: that's really not enough pay? were you making them work 16 hours a day or something? because that sounds like pretty good pay.
[17:44:27] <pcw_home> No, they were actually required to work and that did not agree with them
[17:44:34] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: http://eusurplus.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=53&search=7i77&description=true&sub_category=true
[17:44:34] <CaptHindsight> USPS International Flat rate isn't bad up to 20lbs, maybe it's the import tax that is more
[17:44:47] <Roguish> furrywolf: i am very close to pcw. and i can tell you for sure, that's not much at all around here.
[17:44:59] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: I am in Basildon.
[17:45:02] <furrywolf> Roguish: need a job? :P
[17:45:13] <PetefromTn_> yup bay area is spensive
[17:45:16] <Roguish> been considering it.......
[17:45:28] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: An essex boy huh ?
[17:45:42] <furrywolf> I'd jump on that job in an instant if it were around here.
[17:45:50] <andypugh> A Yorkshireman who got lost, actually.
[17:46:07] * rabbitfoo shakes head (have seen those TV shows <shudder>)
[17:46:11] <pcw_home> Cost of living is really high here
[17:46:41] <furrywolf> that's better than a good administrator job or something here... pretty much the only way to make that kind of money would be a crooked lawyer or growing pot.
[17:47:42] <andypugh> Surely a crooked lawyer can grow pot between jobs?
[17:47:51] <rabbitfoo> anyways - Been looking at linuxcnc configs....
[17:48:05] <rabbitfoo> and that source code.
[17:48:31] <andypugh> HAL? It’s more a netlist than sourcecode
[17:49:37] <rabbitfoo> no, the source code behind it
[17:49:37] <andypugh> I didn’t win the set of Burnerd colllets I bid on. Which is a relief, as I found a set I can have for free earlier today….
[17:50:13] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: If you want to look at source code feel free, but you don’t have to to use LinuxCNC
[17:50:59] <rabbitfoo> Is there any plans to do a proper job on the code ?
[17:51:37] <andypugh> Which bits don’t you like?
[17:51:45] <CaptHindsight> pcw_home: I thought that parts of Oakland are much lower cost, but then you have trade-offs
[17:52:21] <rabbitfoo> nml hal config python bindings
[17:52:30] <pcw_home> its just general SFBA COL is about as high as anywhere in the world
[17:52:57] <andypugh> It does all work, but it is rather old. It’s the result of something like 20 years of incremental development, much of it by amateurs.
[17:53:07] <rabbitfoo> it shows.
[17:53:35] <Tom_itx> is that a volunteer i hear?
[17:53:36] <PetefromTn_> Sacto was not too bad
[17:53:50] <andypugh> So, use it and don’t look, re-write it to suit your sense of aesthetics, or buy something that you can’t see the source of.
[17:53:51] <PetefromTn_> and there are cities inbetween you can enjoy both worlds I think
[17:54:11] <pcw_home> Its also been changed rather conservatively as mistakes when moving heavy metal can be very bad
[17:54:24] <andypugh> A lot of the code looks like C++ written by a FORTRAN progtammer.
[17:54:43] <andypugh> (NML especially)
[17:54:54] <Tom_itx> andypugh, did you get your drive situation back?
[17:54:59] <andypugh> No.
[17:55:07] <Tom_itx> :(
[17:55:14] <andypugh> But I am not as bothered as I expected to be.
[17:55:34] <rabbitfoo> NML can be cut down - I think I saw someone do it in under 10KLOC a while back
[17:55:59] <andypugh> I had a brief panic tonight when I realised that I had lost the Arduino project for the Quadrangle Clock, but then remembered that I had gmailed it to a friend, so I can have it back.
[17:56:08] <CaptHindsight> maybe that's why people reinvent the wheel vs improve Linuxcnc, no experience with Fortan and Cobol :)
[17:56:32] <pcw_home> NML should probably just be replaced but its a big job
[17:56:52] <rabbitfoo> but here is a good one, try: ./configure --diable-python --without-python
[17:56:55] <andypugh> I grepped the remains of the backup and found emails from 2004, so a Python script should rescue my email archive. All in all I almost feel liberated by the fresh start
[17:57:47] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: If you have an appetite for extensive changes to the LinuxCNC codebase, look at Machinekit.
[17:58:08] <furrywolf> andypugh: make a backup of your backup, create zero-filled files for the missing bands, try fscking it and see what's left.
[17:58:32] <rabbitfoo> um, no thanks - I've seen some of the discussions on the mailing list.
[17:58:52] <zeeshan|2> whats wrong with python
[17:58:58] <andypugh> furrywolf: I was thinking of creating another backup then copying the old backup over the top of it.
[17:59:00] <furrywolf> a lot :P
[17:59:12] * Tom_itx puts zeeshan|2 in a delay loop
[17:59:31] <XXCoder> while(1==1){}
[17:59:33] <furrywolf> andypugh: nulls are probably better than sorta-looking-like-the-right-data-but-not-quite...
[17:59:35] <rabbitfoo> python has its uses (somewhere)
[17:59:43] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: The point of using Python is that it allows users to reconfigure the system without recompiling LinuxCNC.
[18:00:22] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: You are missing the point.
[18:00:24] <zeeshan|2> i like python!
[18:00:34] <rabbitfoo> go try: ./configure --diable-python --without-python
[18:00:48] <rabbitfoo> and see where it goes tits up
[18:00:58] <andypugh> Nearly everywhere, at a guess
[18:01:57] <andypugh> I think we all look at the code and go “eew!” some of the time, but that’s a poor reason to change something that it known to work and has been well tested.
[18:02:34] <zeeshan|2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV7t-VG73Fk
[18:02:38] <zeeshan|2> action from today
[18:02:52] <zeeshan|2> http://imgur.com/a/b15cB
[18:03:03] <zeeshan|2> woke up the beast today
[18:03:27] <andypugh> zeeshan|2: I do that sort of thing wih CNC :-)
[18:03:40] <zeeshan|2> dont abuse your mill
[18:03:42] <zeeshan|2> you showed me!
[18:03:51] <andypugh> (but only because I don’t have your cool machine)
[18:04:29] <zeeshan|2> this machine is so neglected
[18:04:34] <zeeshan|2> first time using it in a 1 year
[18:04:42] <andypugh> I am keeping an eye out for a cheap Jenny like that
[18:05:19] <zeeshan|2> jenny?
[18:05:26] <andypugh> Hmm, actually, _any_ sort of chaep Jenny might be cool
[18:05:29] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: ever work with the deposition of polymer thin films (no metals) ~10-500nm thickness? Wondering what you used if so.
[18:06:14] <zeeshan|2> i wanna rebuild the overarm thing out of 1.5" thick steel
[18:06:29] <zeeshan|2> and use a box way
[18:06:32] <zeeshan|2> vs the slot theyre using
[18:06:36] * rabbitfoo has done a little thin-film on glass
[18:07:08] <CaptHindsight> rabbitfoo: polymers or metal oxides?
[18:07:39] <rabbitfoo> silver crystals in gelatin matrix
[18:09:08] <rabbitfoo> if you want large volume thin film coatings on flexible substrates, I know the guys to talk to
[18:09:40] <andypugh> zeeshan|2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA_diGxOREQ Calls it a Jenny. I believe that to be one of the names fhr them.
[18:09:51] <zeeshan|2> oo
[18:09:53] <zeeshan|2> that looks nice
[18:10:02] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: No, I have hardly used polymers at all.
[18:10:20] <rabbitfoo> and how many layers do you need ?
[18:10:25] <andypugh> AFK (Eating a rather late dinner)
[18:10:33] <zeeshan|2> i like those gear dies
[18:10:38] <CaptHindsight> rabbitfoo: these are polymer thin films on polymers on the sub-micron scale
[18:10:50] <zeeshan|2> CaptHindsight: there is a ton of paper on the subject
[18:11:19] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan-lab: I know. Just wondering what Andy might ave used/
[18:11:57] <rabbitfoo> what size substrate are you coating ?
[18:12:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan-lab: unlike yourself I know how to perform my own research :)
[18:12:39] <zeeshan|2> ??
[18:13:05] <CaptHindsight> rabbitfoo: from few nm^2 to maybe 2bm^2
[18:13:16] <CaptHindsight> 2cm^2
[18:14:34] <rabbitfoo> OK... The people I know are geared for 1.5m wide by 5,000m (min) lengths in production volumes
[18:14:54] <rabbitfoo> The test line can do 300mmx2m
[18:15:27] <CaptHindsight> yeah, not that application
[18:15:58] <rabbitfoo> and they can coat up to 14 layers at a time
[18:16:21] <rabbitfoo> (5 on the test line)
[18:17:18] <zeeshan|2> CaptHindsight: i came across the paper when searching for bulge testing of polymers :)
[18:18:24] <CaptHindsight> really tiny tiny paint brush?
[18:19:04] <rabbitfoo> Are you wet coating ?
[18:20:01] <CaptHindsight> it can be wet or dry, but dry is much faster for this process
[18:20:48] <rabbitfoo> sounds like you have already got your coating methods in mind then...
[18:28:26] <CaptHindsight> rabbitfoo: http://www.asdn.net/asdn/nanotools/two-photon_polymerization.shtml with multiple materials vs just one
[18:31:13] <CaptHindsight> say you want to put rubber-soled shoes on the spider in the pic, vs just barefoot, or polyester shirts on the nude busts
[18:34:51] <rabbitfoo> For that size of coating, spin coaters would be ideal
[18:35:45] <rabbitfoo> but they work best with wet coatings
[18:46:48] <CaptHindsight> that would be limited to materials with similar polarities and surface energies
[18:47:51] <CaptHindsight> a layer of something polar on ptfe would fly right off
[18:50:04] <rabbitfoo> Only ever tried thick film coating on PTFE - Won't try that again.
[18:50:17] <rabbitfoo> ^once
[18:51:53] <rabbitfoo> will stick to coating glass & acetate
[18:54:21] <rabbitfoo> ptfe is a bitch to coat, especially if the coatings are hot (~40C)
[18:55:25] <rabbitfoo> anyways.....
[18:55:48] <rabbitfoo> Trying to pick my way through this HAL stuff.....grrr....
[19:06:42] <rabbitfoo> oh dear, oh dear....
[19:07:09] * rabbitfoo has seen a fundimental error.
[19:08:40] <andypugh> I can see a fundamental error in your spelling :-)
[19:10:27] <furrywolf> I decided a while ago that all fundamentalists had serious errors. :)
[19:10:57] <rabbitfoo> Do you want an honest exchange or discussion about the code ?
[19:11:35] <rabbitfoo> or are you going to jumping on spelling all night ?
[19:12:12] <furrywolf> if you don't actually say what you believe the error to be, what kind of answers do you expect?
[19:12:54] <rabbitfoo> There appears to be a basic misunderstanding of what the volatile keyword does.
[19:13:03] <XXCoder> rabbitfoo: https://goo.gl/nUoodz heh
[19:14:02] <PetefromTn_> I just don't understand fundamentally speaking what the hell you guys are talking about...
[19:14:26] <Tom_itx> they are critiquing the way linuxcnc has been written
[19:14:37] <CaptHindsight> all software beyond 1's and 0's is voodoo!
[19:14:45] <PetefromTn_> oh that's a great idea
[19:14:50] <Tom_itx> just shove it thru a black box
[19:15:06] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: evenually there will be 3 bit, 1, 0, and -1
[19:15:56] <CaptHindsight> way back when I predicted 7bit bytes, oh so close
[19:16:20] <rabbitfoo> There is zero need to have configuration data declared as volatile for starters.
[19:16:25] <PetefromTn_> that bytes
[19:16:37] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: it's been a while since I've used it, but as I remember, volatile tells the compiler that the memory location storing the variable may change at any time, for reasons other than the code the compiler is compiling. this could be because it's memory mapped i/o, for example, or it could be because it's being modified from another thread. how are they using it contrary to this?
[19:17:19] <PetefromTn_> so does that mean you are going to rewrite it and make it all better?
[19:17:40] <rabbitfoo> Not tonight Pete
[19:17:50] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf5OMQbcJ90 newish treatments
[19:18:27] <furrywolf> variables being modified by an ISR would be another good use of it.
[19:19:29] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight That is freaking awesome man is that something you are working on?
[19:19:29] <furrywolf> declaring something volatile that isn't has no functionality issues, just prevents optimization, turning every use into a L1 cache fetch instead of a register...
[19:19:48] <CaptHindsight> not directly
[19:20:15] <rabbitfoo> optimization (or the lack of) is one issue
[19:20:37] <PetefromTn_> I need to get myself somehow involved in that sort of thing both for work and for helping people somehow in my life
[19:20:54] <rabbitfoo> volatile does not guarantee ordered read/writes
[19:20:59] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: so how are they using it that demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of its purpose?
[19:21:27] <CaptHindsight> I'm more nuts and bolts of making tech to make nano-machines. That someday will be repairing nerves, attacking cancer, exploring tissues etc
[19:21:56] <furrywolf> no, it doesn't. that's what locks are for. :)
[19:22:16] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: we were talking about wheelchairs this morning
[19:22:38] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight I am more of a nutz and bolts kinda guy/shop too and I still think there is a place for me in it somehow
[19:22:52] <CaptHindsight> those exoskeletons for walking look interesting
[19:23:00] <rabbitfoo> furrywolf: Yes, and if you use locks to protect a struct, there is no need to use volatile
[19:23:28] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: the lock doesn't let the compiler magically know that the struct will be changed from other threads.
[19:23:57] <PetefromTn_> yeah I have seen those...it all seems like some faraway world for the most part. Everything cool seems to happen someplace else from East Tennessee
[19:23:57] <rabbitfoo> and for data that does not change (i.e. config data), no point in it being volatile
[19:24:00] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: http://www.voanews.com/content/powered-exoskeletons-assistance-walking-lifting/2846703.html
[19:24:17] <furrywolf> what if the config is updated from another thread, such as a GUI?
[19:24:19] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: You might want to take this to linuxcnc-devel
[19:24:58] <furrywolf> you can have multiple user interfaces, python programs, etc, all trying to change things.
[19:25:14] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: I think you *might* be right.
[19:25:17] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: how far are you from Oak Ridge?
[19:25:31] <PetefromTn_> about a half hour
[19:25:40] <furrywolf> now, it could well be you're right - I've never examined the linuxcnc source, and you haven't specified what part of it you're looking at - but so far I haven't seen you say anything that would make me think they were using it wrong, much less being ignorant of its purpose....
[19:25:56] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: Do you have any specific examples?
[19:26:32] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: I wonder what would happen if you talked to the hospitals in your area about prosthetics
[19:26:45] <furrywolf> also, if over-use of volatile is the worst thing you can find wrong with the code, stop complaining and make your mill work. :P
[19:28:11] <rabbitfoo> furrywolf: Quickest example - pid.c
[19:28:40] <andypugh> I will point out that jopining an IRC channel, and stating “your code sucks” without providing specific examples is not the ideal way to make friends and influence people.
[19:28:58] * furrywolf doesn't have the linuxcnc code handy, and doesn't much care, since it works...
[19:29:03] <andypugh> (yes, and I know _I_ can’t type)
[19:29:08] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: http://www.openhandproject.org/ http://time.com/3897375/google-amputees-prosthetics/
[19:29:09] <PetefromTn_> the biggest deal with that is they are gonna want all sorts of insurance and liability concerns in place that I do not have
[19:29:43] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_ you try any more anodizing?
[19:29:47] <andypugh> PetefromTn_: Not necessarily. It might be that they inspect and take responsibility.
[19:30:18] <PetefromTn_> it seems like they are also all about 3d printing of which I know nothing...
[19:30:23] <andypugh> A friend of my dad’s used to do a ton of work for DePuy and he viewed it as vast amounts of money for old rope.
[19:30:36] <PetefromTn_> Tom_itx No man I have been out of town all weekend and busy most of the week
[19:31:10] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: at least you'll meet the local people and start to get into the "loop". I'm starting to see DIY prosthetics. Maybe you can perform machine work for people working on them
[19:31:21] <andypugh> For example, they would buy stainless steel Mole (Vise) Grips, weld on special ends for holding hip implants, shot-blast them and sell them for £1000
[19:31:47] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: Did you try: ./configure --disable-python --without-python ?
[19:31:54] <andypugh> No
[19:32:03] <PetefromTn_> ya know honestly taking a ride up to Oak Ridge with some pictures and my hat in my hand might not be a completely ridiculous idea
[19:32:05] <rabbitfoo> Will you ?
[19:32:55] <furrywolf> If you want to help make linuxcnc better, start writing patches. make sure your patches are actually improvements.
[19:33:10] <andypugh> Partly I blithley re-formatted my HDD knowing I had a good backup on Friday and then found the backup wasn’t good. So I am rebuilding from zero.
[19:33:43] <furrywolf> neither andy nor I are developers, and so far you haven't complained about anything that sounds like an actual problem.
[19:33:58] <andypugh> Actually, I am a developer.
[19:34:02] <furrywolf> shhh! :P
[19:34:28] <andypugh> But I have only done anything at all in the Realtime kernel layer.
[19:34:38] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: a machined higher quality version or parts for this
[19:35:09] <CaptHindsight> anyone can print of some glue gun files but it takes some skill to machine some stronger more versatile parts
[19:35:57] <CaptHindsight> The company recently received a $200,000 grant from Google, ^^^
[19:35:58] <PetefromTn_> yeah I agree that is the hope anyways... have yet to find an IN for that sort of thing but to be honest other than visiting local companies I have not ventured out too far
[19:36:17] <andypugh> But I will point out that the realtime layer code often will look strange, as any code there has to assume that it might get interrupted and have its shared values altered at any time.
[19:36:44] <malcom2073> Weird... I got a youtube private message form some random dude, linking me to psha.org's log of #linuxcnc, saying (in polish) that anything I say is recorded.
[19:37:05] <XXCoder> ohhhhh threat!
[19:37:11] <andypugh> It’s a random polite warning? How odd
[19:37:12] <CaptHindsight> ah the PSA
[19:37:23] <CaptHindsight> Polish Security Agency
[19:37:44] <malcom2073> It was from some guy who is into Rap & Hip Hop according to his youtube profile
[19:38:01] <furrywolf> maybe I'm missing something here, but I just checked pid.c, and a search for volatile find exactly nothing?
[19:38:27] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: I have done work in realtime
[19:39:19] <rabbitfoo> furrywolf: dig deeper in to hal_float_t - You will find it typedef'd as volatile in hal.h
[19:40:00] <rabbitfoo> One of the dangers of hiding behind *random* typedefs
[19:40:31] <furrywolf> that makes sense. hal variables may be modified by anything, all over the place, asynchronously.
[19:40:51] <furrywolf> two different realtime timer threads, hardware drivers, motional control, gui,...
[19:42:11] <rabbitfoo> but none should *need* to alter config data - Only at startup does config data need setting
[19:43:09] <furrywolf> actually, if there is a bug in there, it's that someone used a couple doubles without declaring them volatile. :P
[19:43:53] <Tom_itx> i don't consider those bugs, rather code style
[19:43:58] <furrywolf> although those are probably things only being used by one thread
[19:44:41] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: those things can be changed at run-time or dynamically. that's not static config info.
[19:45:00] <furrywolf> and even if some of it were, over-declaring volatile isn't going to cause a problem.
[19:45:31] <andypugh> hal_float_t are generally HAL pins in shared memory. I can’t think of a better example of a volatile
[19:46:14] <furrywolf> andypugh: that's my thought too! heh
[19:46:36] <furrywolf> he's complaining about the paramters for a pid loop, but those can be changed while running from any thread...
[19:48:51] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: if I had a nickle for every oddball I've come across on IRC....
[19:48:56] <rabbitfoo> and there you have (one) problem - Config parameters should not be changing at random times from other threads
[19:48:59] <malcom2073> Heh, you'd be rich eh?
[19:49:49] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: at this point I'm beginning to think you have some fundamental misunderstandings yourself...
[19:50:13] <furrywolf> what if you wanted to write a program that dynamically tuned the pid loop, say? or a GUI that did it?
[19:50:14] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: Why not? It seems perfectly reasonable to change a PID gain on a live system when tuning the servos. And you need to be sure that that has no unintended effects.
[19:50:47] <rabbitfoo> andypugh: If you are interested in improving the code, perhaps a discussion over a beer would be more productive
[19:51:04] <rabbitfoo> Basildon is only an hour or so down the A12
[19:51:07] <andypugh> In fact, is is _expected_ that you will change the gains when tuning PID. And you might well want to dynamically alter the gains from external components too.
[19:52:30] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: I am all for improving the code, but PID parameters are very much likely to change at run-time
[19:52:43] <furrywolf> from multiple threads.
[19:53:03] <rabbitfoo> PID is one example.
[19:53:25] <furrywolf> yes, it's an example of where it's used correctly, and an example of where you're incorrectly labeling it as a problem.
[19:53:37] <rabbitfoo> Yes, parameters *may& change during run time, but not every time the loop is run
[19:54:08] <andypugh> Generally from userspace, but the lincurve comp was written with the idea of tweaking gains from the servo thread to make the gains error / position / whatever dependent.
[19:55:13] <andypugh> Most of the PID “things” that are expected to change are now pins, rather than parameters. You can’t actually change HAL “parameters” from anywhere but userspace
[19:55:14] <furrywolf> yay, one of the local forest fires grew another 20,000 acres in 5 hours today.
[19:55:52] <furrywolf> (that's 81km2 for you metric types, or 8100 hectares)
[19:56:51] <andypugh> That’s an area almost 45 x 45 furlongs!
[19:59:00] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: So, are you saying that “volatile” is only sensible for things that _do_ change every invocation, not things that _might_ change every time?
[20:00:29] <rabbitfoo> volatile has its uses for data that *can* change at any time, but should not be used for stuff that is unlikely to change
[20:01:19] <andypugh> Don’t mistake me for a real programmer. I have written a fair few components for LinuxCNC but I taught myself C from scratch specifically to write the 3-phase PWM Hostmot2 driver because I had some motors I wanted to run.
[20:01:36] <XXCoder> andypugh: youre real enough
[20:01:47] <CaptHindsight> rabbitfoo: is there some extra overhead involved if you do use it that way?
[20:02:23] <andypugh> But: Any HAL pin is expected to change, so hal_float_t should be volatile.
[20:02:56] <Tom_itx> what issues besides volatile do you see?
[20:03:06] <andypugh> Some values in some code might be defined as hal_float_t despite not being pins.
[20:03:42] <furrywolf> no, we should separate hal pins into those that change often and those that do not, and instead of using volatile and actual memory locations, they should be stored in some fancy hash table and a notification-of-changed-pins ipc system set up. :)
[20:04:24] <andypugh> But then we have already doubled the width of hal_float_t once, so it might make sense to use that for all floats in HAL code that operate on pin values in case the width changes again.
[20:05:08] <rabbitfoo> volatile stops the compiler from making certain optimisations and slows execution down
[20:05:25] <furrywolf> yes. we know that. I even told you that.
[20:05:39] <andypugh> How important is that in this context?
[20:06:27] <rabbitfoo> yes you did. So why does cofiguration data that does not change have to be volatile ?
[20:06:45] <andypugh> What is the tyopical servo thread execution time, and how much shorter would it be without the spurious volatiles?
[20:08:06] * furrywolf introduces rabbitfoo to the concept of premature optimization
[20:08:18] <andypugh> rabbitfoo: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=tree;f=src;h=6765dccb0d9a714c9490a20172cf82586c4da389;hb=HEAD is a good starting point for posting links to specific examples.
[20:10:03] <andypugh> If you can persuade folk that something is wrong, then it will get changed. But the mind-set here is very much “this moves big lumps of metal, we need to be sure that changes are worth the risk”
[20:11:48] <andypugh> I love this link. Some people are moving _very_ big lumps of metal. https://youtu.be/mxxdq6y8z8M?t=45s
[20:12:20] <Tom_itx> yep, that is a classic one
[20:14:45] <Tom_itx> i wonder what sort of feeds he gets from it when it's acutally cutting parts
[20:15:34] <furrywolf> lol @ manumatic tool change. :)
[20:16:14] <rabbitfoo> I really hope that guy does not change tooling like that when the machine is running for real.
[20:16:17] <andypugh> One thing I noticed at MPM is that the feeds they use on their actual aerospace production machines at a lot lower than you see on Youtube demo videos.
[20:17:26] <furrywolf> rabbitfoo: not making random changes to the code improves his safety. :P
[20:18:33] <rabbitfoo> No. Staying out of the workspace when the machine is active improves his chance of staying alive.
[20:18:54] <rabbitfoo> Code has nothing to do with bad working practices.
[20:19:03] <PetefromTn_> seen that before and it never ceases to amaze me what a monster that machine is
[20:19:47] <andypugh> It’s a manual toolchange, the machine is paused and waiting. (also, that machine is not going to take you ny surprise with a rapid)
[20:20:37] <furrywolf> I'm surprised how slow it is, actually.
[20:20:37] <tjtr33> that vid has Nick's 'Features' for Linuxcnc in the youtube suggested list. anyone here get that to run?
[20:20:49] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, even better up close and personal..
[20:21:06] <Tom_itx> that shop is only a couple miles from me
[20:22:25] <PetefromTn_> no doubt
[20:22:57] <Tom_itx> i was equally impressed with his edm setup
[20:23:00] <andypugh> He has more than one of them. He might have all of them
[20:23:03] <tjtr33> they do all that 5 axis CAM in APT :)
[20:23:18] <tjtr33> Tom_itx, i didnt see EDM there.
[20:23:31] <Tom_itx> Stuart showed me the whole place
[20:23:43] <tjtr33> yep, me too
[20:23:58] <zeeshan|2> has anyone seen 1/16" thick veneer at home depot
[20:24:13] <tjtr33> but im like only interested in edm and dont recall any there
[20:24:18] <furrywolf> that doesn't sound like a home depot item.
[20:24:40] <furrywolf> home depot sells only mass-produced stuff aimed for the most buyers
[20:24:45] <Tom_itx> tjtr33, last i knew they were looking at this for their multi axis code: http://www.nccs.com/products/ncl.html
[20:24:54] <furrywolf> while veneer, of any variety, is only for a few fine woodworkers.
[20:25:12] <Tom_itx> tjtr33, it was in a separate climate controlled room
[20:25:31] <PetefromTn_> watching Wing Commander on netflix trying to decide if this is a great movie or a shitty movie...
[20:26:01] <Tom_itx> saw the new Mission impossible yesterday
[20:26:13] <PetefromTn_> sucked?
[20:26:20] <Tom_itx> in line with the others
[20:26:25] <zeeshan|2> i need something .0625" thick
[20:26:26] <zeeshan|2> for dividers
[20:26:27] <Tom_itx> it was good intertainment
[20:26:30] <tjtr33> hmm yeah we talked about NCL, and i didnt see the room ( sounds like wedm and thats no fun, frkn sewing machines, notr real edm ;)
[20:26:37] <zeeshan|2> easy to cut with scissors and gluye
[20:26:39] <PetefromTn_> so something between sucking and decent entertainment I guess LOL
[20:26:53] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/aor0DAL.jpg
[20:27:05] <zeeshan|2> to fit in my drawers to divide it into sections so i can put my bolts in
[20:27:37] <furrywolf> find someone with a plasma table and make shiny dividers
[20:27:53] <zeeshan|2> you didnt meet one of my requirements :P
[20:28:04] <andypugh> Veneer seems an odd choice. Why not Mica?
[20:28:20] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: it doesnt matter what it is
[20:28:24] <zeeshan|2> as long as its 0.070 thick
[20:28:26] <furrywolf> polycarbonate
[20:28:27] <zeeshan|2> er 0.0625
[20:28:37] <zeeshan|2> cheap and easy to work with
[20:28:43] <andypugh> Stainless steel?
[20:28:46] <zeeshan|2> haha
[20:28:50] <zeeshan|2> dont troll
[20:28:55] <PetefromTn_> damn imperial dimensions...
[20:29:09] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: yea!
[20:29:31] <furrywolf> cheese.
[20:29:36] <andypugh> I find the cheapest way to buy stainless is cut to exact shape by my local laser cutting emporium.
[20:29:51] <furrywolf> it fits all your requirements, and you can cut it in .0625" slices. :P
[20:29:52] <malcom2073> Woo did some machining today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDQRqxN0WvE
[20:30:09] <malcom2073> Very boring low quality video
[20:30:11] <malcom2073> need to work on that
[20:30:20] <XXCoder> 0.0625 ly
[20:30:39] <andypugh> malcom2073: I assume the anticlockwise rotation is a vide oarrtefact?
[20:30:48] <andypugh> (video artefact(
[20:31:05] <PetefromTn_> what is all that smoke? LOL
[20:31:08] <malcom2073> andypugh: Negative, is that abnormal? All my dads endmills are that direction
[20:31:12] <malcom2073> Haha PetefromTn_: The wrong kind of oil
[20:31:23] <malcom2073> Wait! No
[20:31:24] <XXCoder> ccw thats weird
[20:31:26] <malcom2073> It is an artifact
[20:31:39] <malcom2073> Sorry, had a moment. Yeah it spins clockwise
[20:31:42] <XXCoder> so it is really going cw?
[20:31:45] <malcom2073> yeah
[20:31:46] <XXCoder> ok
[20:32:05] <malcom2073> Look at the chip buildup
[20:32:08] <furrywolf> I saw a video of a horizontal mill that spun ccw the other day. didn't expect that.
[20:32:22] * furrywolf has never used a horizontal mill, so didn't know what to expect
[20:32:24] <XXCoder> yeah why would anyone do ccw on em?
[20:32:28] <andypugh> I wonder where they get tooling?
[20:32:42] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: speciality applications :D
[20:32:50] <XXCoder> interesting
[20:32:55] <tjtr33> from australia? spins other way?
[20:32:56] <furrywolf> they were using slitting saws, and just put them on the right direction.
[20:33:03] <andypugh> You can get left-hand drillls as some gang-drilling machines alternate directions.
[20:33:14] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: the one time ive seen it used is at school
[20:33:23] <zeeshan|2> they were machining a thin sheet
[20:33:56] <andypugh> (Left-hand drills excell at drilling out broken bolts, it’s nice that they exist)
[20:33:59] <furrywolf> I have left-hand drills for removing broken bolts
[20:34:14] <andypugh> I win :-)
[20:34:42] <malcom2073> heh
[20:34:43] <furrywolf> ?
[20:35:12] <XXCoder> there's special taps for removing sheared bolts and stuff
[20:35:32] <tjtr33> easy-outs?
[20:35:39] <XXCoder> think so
[20:35:43] <Tom_itx> i keep a set of easy outs on hand
[20:35:50] <zeeshan|2> f ez outs
[20:35:52] <tjtr33> not a tap
[20:35:54] <andypugh> XXCoder: And it is worth knowing that a carbide end-mill _can_ mill through an EZ-out.
[20:36:11] <furrywolf> yes, but when drilling the holes for easyouts, it's sometimes better to use a left-hand bit, so if it's loose, you don't screw it in even further.
[20:36:12] <XXCoder> andypugh: nice
[20:36:23] <zeeshan|2> F those spiral easy outs
[20:36:27] <zeeshan|2> they snap too easy
[20:36:39] <andypugh> I keep a set oe EZ-outs buried in the back garden under a pile of manure so I am never even tempted to use them.
[20:36:42] <Tom_itx> you're just too hard on them
[20:36:47] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: haha
[20:36:50] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: nope
[20:37:15] <Tom_itx> i seldom use them really
[20:37:28] <tjtr33> i imagine a guy breaking a tap the getting it out then snapping the stuf, then breaking an ez-out, then becoming a shepard
[20:37:35] <furrywolf> I've used mine twice recently.
[20:38:05] <zeeshan|2> http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/8496886-23.jpg
[20:38:07] <zeeshan|2> best
[20:38:09] <zeeshan|2> win
[20:38:11] <furrywolf> a neighbor brought over a lawnmower with a broken-off spark plug. didn't need to drill that one, since I was able to use the hole already present from the ceramic and center conductor.
[20:38:26] <furrywolf> and I had a head bolt snap off in one of my honda generators. drilled and easy-outed that one.
[20:39:05] <Tom_itx> hope you fished out the rest of the plug...
[20:39:36] <tjtr33> the straights dont nudge the thread out till turned, the screw ones nudge with every tap of the hammer
[20:39:42] <andypugh> I think that EZ-out is a black-ops arm of an EDM company
[20:39:50] <tjtr33> heh
[20:39:52] <furrywolf> didn't need to. the remaining ceramic/etc pulled out in one piece.
[20:40:20] <furrywolf> lol
[20:40:20] <Tom_itx> andypugh, i honestly think you don't like them because they have 'easy' in the name :D
[20:40:31] <zeeshan|2> tjtr33: they also snap a lot easier than the square :P
[20:41:12] <andypugh> I don’t like them because they don’t work
[20:41:16] <tjtr33> never broke one, tho i do have edm in basement
[20:41:55] <furrywolf> they work great.
[20:42:03] <furrywolf> I've used them many times.
[20:42:18] <zeeshan|2> they pretty much work for stuff that is free already
[20:42:19] <zeeshan|2> :P
[20:42:20] <Tom_itx> i agree they don't work in all cases
[20:42:29] <Tom_itx> but they are handy to have
[20:42:39] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: I've used them on stuff that was most definitely not free.
[20:42:53] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: you must be superman
[20:43:06] <Tom_itx> superwoman
[20:43:12] <zeeshan|2> superwolf
[20:43:16] <andypugh> So, this bolt just sheared because it is siezed in the hole. What I need to do is drill a hole then insert something much smaller than the original bolt that will expand the top of the bolt, and is of such adamantine hardness that I will need something very special to remove it when it breaks, because it is som much smaller than the bolt.
[20:43:44] <Tom_itx> i agree they don't work in all cases
[20:43:47] <Tom_itx> but they are handy to have
[20:43:48] <tjtr33> gas wrench!
[20:43:55] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: now i know youre a mech eng
[20:43:58] <zeeshan|2> logic match
[20:43:59] <furrywolf> andypugh: that's why they're much harder metal. :P
[20:44:16] <andypugh> Harder != stronger
[20:44:53] <andypugh> (though I admit a strong correlation)
[20:44:58] <furrywolf> as I said, I've used them twice in the last couple months, successfully. I've probably used them several dozen times over my life.
[20:44:58] <furrywolf> what else would I have done with, say, the broken off head bolt?
[20:45:10] <zeeshan|2> easy
[20:45:12] <zeeshan|2> weld a new head
[20:45:14] <malcom2073> Just replace the block
[20:45:15] <malcom2073> Oh
[20:45:21] <malcom2073> wait, not a chevy small block, they're not cheap as dirt :P
[20:45:39] <malcom2073> I broke off a bolt in my intake manifold before. I went and got another one for $10 and replaced it
[20:45:42] <furrywolf> no, a honda inverter generator block. heh.
[20:46:30] <zeeshan|2> _in_?
[20:46:56] <malcom2073> zeeshan|2: thermostat housing bolt, screws into the aluminum intake
[20:46:59] <tjtr33> alum block & steel bolt? galling?
[20:47:10] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: probably a bolt mounting the throttle body or something to the intake, not the intake to the head
[20:47:18] <malcom2073> yeah
[20:47:22] <zeeshan|2> easy fix
[20:47:52] <andypugh> If you look at the equation for shear strength of a shaft it goes as the 4th power of diameter. So, if the EZ-out is half the diameter of the bolt that broke it needs to be 16x as strong to be even the same strength in torstion.
[20:47:53] <furrywolf> I need to change the exhaust manifold on my truck. that's going to be fun.
[20:47:55] <malcom2073> Yeah, take it off the car, buy a set of easy outs, use them.
[20:48:15] <furrywolf> it's studs+nuts. the nuts are now round instead of hexagonal, 47 years later...
[20:48:25] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: talking about J|?
[20:48:26] <zeeshan|2> J?
[20:48:30] <tjtr33> buy ones made of M series (shock )
[20:48:35] <zeeshan|2> tr / j
[20:48:48] <zeeshan|2> polar moment of inertia
[20:48:55] <furrywolf> andypugh: you're making the assumption the broken bolt requires the same force to remove. this is not always the case.
[20:49:10] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: dam,n right is the case!
[20:49:23] <XXCoder> yeah I remember one time bolt broke head off when I was tighting part on fixture
[20:49:29] <XXCoder> it was really easy to remove
[20:49:35] <furrywolf> andypugh: if the bolt was holding two things together, it was also subject to tensional forces, making it easier to break, and frictional forces, making it harder to turn.
[20:49:36] <andypugh> Sorry, it’s actualy ^3 for total torque, ^4 is the deflection etc
[20:49:37] <furrywolf> the bolt may also break partway down in the threads
[20:49:49] <furrywolf> yeah, I was thinking ^3. heh.
[20:49:49] <zeeshan|2> yes cause of the r on top
[20:50:06] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: you know how to work with tau = tr / j?
[20:50:26] <furrywolf> and, if it's broken due to over-torquing when tightening, rather than galling or rust, it might be ready to spin right out, if only you had a way to turn it...
[20:50:27] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: no
[20:50:33] <zeeshan|2> how do you know its ^3?
[20:50:40] * furrywolf is a redneck, not a mechanical engineer
[20:51:16] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: rough guesstimate... torque increases with radius, and amount of metal increases with square of radius, so you end up with three radiuses...
[20:51:51] <andypugh> furrywolf: Yes, exactly. I was having too much fun. :-) If you break it on assembly then an EZ-out will work. If you break the head off because the thread is seized, then a smaller harder thing is going to break too.
[20:52:21] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: so in conclusion ez outs are for noobs is what you're saying?
[20:52:30] <zeeshan|2> because you gotta be a noob to break it on assembly
[20:52:31] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[20:52:42] <andypugh> Seems fair
[20:52:45] <furrywolf> andypugh: also, when things are broken due to mechanical overload of the assembley. impact, crashed, whatever... you end up with a broken bolt just waiting to come out but no way to turn it.
[20:52:52] <tjtr33> if seized, i've only big bored it and insert threaded ( and it was PITA)
[20:53:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: see what I just said with andypugh: in front of it. :P
[20:53:06] <zeeshan|2> tjtr33: why
[20:53:08] <zeeshan|2> you have an edm
[20:53:10] <zeeshan|2> burn that shit out
[20:53:20] <tjtr33> not portabvl;e to under car ;(
[20:53:42] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: want to remove a 47-year-old exhaust manifold for me? :P
[20:53:54] <tjtr33> ( mountain & mohammed problem )
[20:53:57] <furrywolf> I might just not even bother trying to unscrew the nuts and just go for the gas axe first and cut them off.
[20:54:18] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Pull the engine, stick it on the mill
[20:54:19] <malcom2073> :P
[20:54:29] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: im an expert at exhaust studs
[20:54:30] <XXCoder> if bolt is large enough.. weld a shaft to it
[20:54:31] <zeeshan|2> !
[20:54:37] <XXCoder> then reverse it out lol
[20:54:53] <furrywolf> XXCoder: it's studs with nuts
[20:55:04] <furrywolf> the nuts are mostly round, and the threads on the visible portion of the stud no longer exhaust
[20:55:05] <furrywolf> exist
[20:55:08] <XXCoder> yes, you do want studs with nuts.,
[20:55:11] <XXCoder> bad joke
[20:55:32] <zeeshan|2> what works for me is: mapp gas the area around the stud, double nut it and try to pull it out. that works 95% of the time
[20:55:53] <zeeshan|2> if it fails ,didnt heat it up enough
[20:56:00] <furrywolf> I hope to just remove the nuts from the studs and re-use the studs. :P
[20:56:02] <zeeshan|2> weld a nut to it , the weld head helps break it
[20:56:11] <zeeshan|2> forget about that
[20:56:15] <tjtr33> IF you got thread exposed
[20:56:15] <zeeshan|2> youre asking for trouble :P
[20:56:17] <XXCoder> I remember one tip about using cold and hot to loosen it so it can be removed
[20:56:19] <XXCoder> but dunno
[20:56:23] <furrywolf> torch off the nuts...
[20:56:29] <furrywolf> run a tap down the stud...
[20:56:33] <zeeshan|2> tjtr33: the goal is to not break em :P
[20:56:58] <zeeshan|2> they will only break if you try to pull em without any heat
[20:57:01] <tjtr33> eh we started with the stud busted off
[20:57:08] <furrywolf> I don't want to pull them!
[20:57:13] <furrywolf> why do you keep talking about pulling them? :P
[20:57:26] <zeeshan|2> cause if its an old engine
[20:57:29] <zeeshan|2> you wanna replace em
[20:57:41] <furrywolf> no, I wanna do as little work as possible.
[20:57:49] <zeeshan|2> then deal with snapping it
[20:57:49] <XXCoder> buy new one
[20:57:51] <malcom2073> Cause pulling engines is easy
[20:57:52] <zeeshan|2> which will be more work
[20:57:58] <XXCoder> least work, most money
[20:58:07] <malcom2073> Pull studs moreso
[20:58:08] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: rofl
[20:58:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: no, reusing the studs is less work.
[20:58:20] <andypugh> I am glad I am not a teacher. I was called in to the student garage today because their prop-shaft input knuckle broke, and they couldn’t figure out how to get the worm shaft out.
[20:58:22] <zeeshan|2> no its not
[20:58:27] <zeeshan|2> theyve been heat cycled enough
[20:58:27] <andypugh> (Does this work? ) https://plus.google.com/108164504656404380542/posts/eFS3PTc3Jh4?pid=6178592097373486242&oid=108164504656404380542
[20:58:32] <zeeshan|2> that when you go tigthen them again
[20:58:34] <zeeshan|2> there is a high chance of failure.
[20:59:03] <PetefromTn_> meh that movie was okay I guess
[20:59:23] <zeeshan|2> nice carnag
[20:59:25] <zeeshan|2> e
[20:59:31] <tjtr33> yow "harder harder hit it again" jeez
[21:00:07] <andypugh> So, I decided we needed a puller, and set out to make one, but decided to let a student do some of the work. It took him 90 minutes to drill 3 x 47/64” holes in a bit of bar. To be fair he had never used a pillar drll before…
[21:00:45] <zeeshan|2> did the drill bit survive
[21:01:06] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: I do not think there is much chance of them coming out in one piece.
[21:01:15] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: ive removed
[21:01:18] <furrywolf> and I do not want to end up drilling and helicoiling.
[21:01:18] <zeeshan|2> at least a 1000 studs
[21:01:22] <zeeshan|2> in my career!
[21:01:30] <zeeshan|2> that 95% came from that
[21:01:30] <furrywolf> from 47 year old RUSTY engines? :P
[21:01:32] <zeeshan|2> yes
[21:01:34] <zeeshan|2> RUJSTY as shit engines
[21:01:42] <zeeshan|2> where the stud looks like a pile of powder
[21:01:54] <zeeshan|2> the hardest ones for me were
[21:01:58] <Tom_itx> we used to helicoil VW engine blocks on a regular basis
[21:02:03] <zeeshan|2> when someone decided to use stainless studs for their exhaust studs
[21:02:08] <zeeshan|2> and they were galled in
[21:02:11] <tjtr33> yay helicoil
[21:02:14] <zeeshan|2> stainless will almost always gall upon tightning
[21:02:14] <XXCoder> galled?
[21:02:22] <Tom_itx> the studs would pull on the early ones
[21:02:26] <XXCoder> googling
[21:02:28] <zeeshan|2> that was the only time ive had to drill it out and helicoil
[21:02:37] <zeeshan|2> stainless is the worst thing to use on exhaust stuff
[21:02:38] <zeeshan|2> don't do it
[21:02:39] <zeeshan|2> !
[21:02:45] <zeeshan|2> *fasteners
[21:02:51] <zeeshan|2> turbo cars this is
[21:02:54] <XXCoder> ah losing metal to each other
[21:02:56] <furrywolf> isn't your exhaust stainless? :P
[21:03:00] <zeeshan|2> it is
[21:03:04] <zeeshan|2> but all the flanges are mild steel
[21:03:07] <zeeshan|2> and studs are mild steel also
[21:03:12] <zeeshan|2> well steel, mnot mild
[21:03:18] <zeeshan|2> the nuts are copper
[21:03:21] <zeeshan|2> i dont f around
[21:03:40] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: is there any part of a vw that's NOT made deficient? :P
[21:03:51] <andypugh> Ford OEM exhaust nuts seem to be copper with a pre-intalled helicoil.
[21:03:56] <Tom_itx> they were made for the masses
[21:04:04] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: not on the ford 150
[21:04:06] <zeeshan|2> !@!!
[21:04:11] <zeeshan|2> f150
[21:04:22] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: it's so common to break exhaust studs on them
[21:04:33] <furrywolf> andypugh: time to machine a new one of those. doesn't look TOO hard. turn it on a lathe, then machine the rounded square sides?
[21:04:35] <zeeshan|2> that its the most common exhaust studs youll find in those "help!' kids
[21:04:47] <tjtr33> andypugh, what happened with the puller? did they pull the worm thru that bush sideways?
[21:06:10] <andypugh> furrywolf: We have spares of that. When the key broke out we lost drive and messed up the retaining nut and the thread therof. We needed the worm shaft out to re-cut the thread and clean up the taper.
[21:06:37] <andypugh> The puller was needed to get the shaft out of the differential.
[21:07:23] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: what is that part for?
[21:07:38] <andypugh> It’s the input UJ for the differential
[21:08:01] <zeeshan|2> hm
[21:08:04] <zeeshan|2> where is the yoke?
[21:08:12] <andypugh> Bronze slippers fit on the long sides, then the whole thing fits in a square box.
[21:08:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: it doesn't work like you think it does. :)
[21:08:37] <tjtr33> nor i
[21:08:42] <zeeshan|2> show me a pic of the whole thing plz
[21:08:47] <zeeshan|2> what is this ancient monsterosity
[21:09:07] <furrywolf> it's 100 years old, that's not THAT ancient... :P
[21:09:13] <tjtr33> something before the UJs we know :)
[21:09:23] <zeeshan|2> if it doesnt look a yoke
[21:09:28] <zeeshan|2> its ancient :P
[21:09:37] <andypugh> The strange thing is that there is a Hooke’s joint on the output from the gearbox. It wasn’t like it was waiting to be invebted
[21:09:44] <furrywolf> lol
[21:09:57] <zeeshan|2> rofl
[21:10:02] <furrywolf> it's not an actual universal joint. it's just stuffed inside another square with some brass wear material.
[21:10:16] <zeeshan|2> pics of overall assembly!!!!!!!!!1
[21:10:17] <furrywolf> andypugh: you ever machine a rzeppa joint? I was thinking of making one.
[21:10:32] <andypugh> furrywolf: A what>
[21:10:34] <andypugh> ?
[21:10:41] <andypugh> Linky?
[21:10:55] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: cv joint
[21:11:02] <zeeshan|2> you guys need to stop using these fancy names
[21:11:07] <zeeshan|2> firest the hookes joint
[21:11:11] <zeeshan|2> now RZEPPA
[21:11:16] <furrywolf> andypugh: ball-type CV joint. the ones on the outside on FWD cars, with a cup, six balls, etc.
[21:11:44] <zeeshan|2> i posted pics of an exploded axle
[21:12:28] <zeeshan|2> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/axles_owned2.jpg
[21:12:36] <zeeshan|2> not a 6 ball version
[21:12:40] <zeeshan|2> but you get the point :P
[21:13:14] <furrywolf> that's a tripod joint, not a rzeppa joint.
[21:13:22] <zeeshan|2> same idea :P
[21:13:36] <furrywolf> usually you have a tripod joint inboard and an rzeppa joint outboard.
[21:13:44] <andypugh> zeeshan|2: https://union.ic.ac.uk/rcc/rcsmotor/mechanics/dennis-n-type-manual/100-mile-maintenance/
[21:13:57] <Tom_itx> http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sisyphus_/media/rzeppa.jpg.html
[21:14:01] <furrywolf> rzeppa joints allow for higher angles, but don't telescope. tripod joints only work on shallow angles, but do telescope.
[21:14:35] <furrywolf> and, no, not same idea - they work very differently. :P
[21:14:48] <zeeshan|2> both are cv joints
[21:14:49] <zeeshan|2> so i win
[21:14:49] <zeeshan|2> !
[21:14:54] * zeeshan|2 is pulling a renesis tonight
[21:15:02] <zeeshan|2> relay and contactors same thing ok?
[21:15:02] <Tom_itx> lemme guess.... subaru uses em
[21:15:15] <zeeshan|2> rzeppa tripod joint same thing ok?
[21:15:47] <zeeshan|2> wow this thing needs maintenance every 100 miles
[21:15:47] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: virtually all front-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive cars use them.
[21:15:48] <zeeshan|2> nice
[21:15:53] <furrywolf> of every US and import make.
[21:15:54] <andypugh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_H._Rzeppa
[21:16:11] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: https://union.ic.ac.uk/rcc/rcsmotor/wp-content/uploads/rear_box.jpg is the relevant picture
[21:16:23] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf:
[21:16:26] <zeeshan|2> im looking at it
[21:16:29] <zeeshan|2> but have no idea whats ging on
[21:16:37] <zeeshan|2> and why there is a bullet sticking out of it
[21:16:57] <zeeshan|2> im happy to see castle nuts on this ancient thing
[21:16:58] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: read the page. :P
[21:17:15] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: Unwind, fill with grease and screw back in the rear box joint greaser (repeat 4 times). Be careful not to cross thread the greaser.
[21:17:17] <zeeshan|2> didnt help!
[21:17:46] <furrywolf> andypugh: that animation is oversimplified. usually the grooves are actually at V in pairs to help with making the ball cage track properly
[21:18:28] <furrywolf> I don't remember the details. was about a year ago I was looking up how to make one. :)
[21:18:33] <zeeshan|2> tripod joint looks stronger
[21:18:41] <zeeshan|2> with thsi multiple ball joint
[21:19:01] <zeeshan|2> though looks can be decieving
[21:19:13] <furrywolf> tripod joints are weaker, work on smaller angles, and aren't quite constant velocity. :P
[21:19:30] <zeeshan|2> well unless youre going off roading
[21:19:34] <zeeshan|2> i dojnt see the benefit of larger angles?
[21:19:43] <furrywolf> well, strong/weak is relative, as you can adjust the relative size so both ends of the axle are the same strength.
[21:19:53] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: being able to STEER is useful.
[21:20:08] <zeeshan|2> oh i forgot
[21:20:13] <zeeshan|2> i left wrong wheel drive a while back
[21:20:13] <zeeshan|2> :P
[21:20:21] <zeeshan|2> im looking at the pic of the carnage
[21:20:27] <zeeshan|2> the cv shaft exploded
[21:20:31] <zeeshan|2> taking out the tripod with it
[21:20:33] <zeeshan|2> nice
[21:20:59] <furrywolf> some offroad vehicles have really fancy nested double rzeppa joints, to be able to both steer and deal with extreme suspension travel at the same time...
[21:22:05] <furrywolf> hrmm, google images isn't finding a picture of one, probably because I don't know the proper name.
[21:22:12] <ThisSucks> Baja trucks are a prime example
[21:22:26] <zeeshan|2> that multiple ball joint looks like a fun machining project
[21:22:30] <zeeshan|2> i can see why you want to build one
[21:23:08] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: did i tell you
[21:23:11] <furrywolf> ThisSucks: yep
[21:23:16] <zeeshan|2> i saw a ball joint failure right in front of me?
[21:23:21] <zeeshan|2> this guy had a modified cobalt ss
[21:23:21] <furrywolf> when I get 5-axis working, I want to make one. :P
[21:23:25] <zeeshan|2> the ball joint failed
[21:23:38] <zeeshan|2> the wheel flew up and down hard, cruashing the entire fender
[21:23:46] <zeeshan|2> it was so violent that the windshield cracked
[21:23:47] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:24:19] <furrywolf> fun
[21:24:25] <zeeshan|2> tighten your balls!
[21:24:28] <furrywolf> all the failures I've seen have been substantially less interesting.
[21:24:42] <furrywolf> the one I broke myself just spun inside the cup
[21:25:07] <tjtr33> image on google images for 'Rzeppa six-ball CV joint" ? i dunno i'f recognixe the variant
[21:25:09] <zeeshan|2> sounds like subaru engineering
[21:25:10] <zeeshan|2> :)
[21:25:25] <andypugh> furrywolf: Making one is probably easy(ish) making a good one, that is hard enough, with the right surface finish is probably a post-heat-treatment grinding job.
[21:25:32] <tjtr33> furry's dbl nested variant
[21:25:43] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: ive been researching into heat treatment
[21:25:52] <zeeshan|2> apparently if you do things precisely
[21:25:59] <zeeshan|2> you can get away with not having to grind
[21:26:07] <zeeshan|2> cause the dimension is stable after heat treatment
[21:26:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: the tolerances in a CV joint are very, very tight.
[21:26:39] <zeeshan|2> yea im talking a couple tenths of deviation
[21:26:52] <tjtr33> eh, ask any mold or die maker how well the pros do at that ( close but no cigar, not good enuf for no grind )
[21:26:57] <zeeshan|2> like for example 8630
[21:27:32] <ThisSucks> Post heat treat? Not happening
[21:27:33] <zeeshan|2> tjtr33: i was reading an article on gear making
[21:27:46] <zeeshan|2> apparently they achieved tolerances after heat treatring
[21:27:48] <furrywolf> andypugh: even if I just make one out of wood as a paperweight, it'll be a shiny toy. :P
[21:27:53] <zeeshan|2> so no post grinding needed
[21:27:54] <zeeshan|2> major $$$
[21:27:55] <furrywolf> and a good machining exercise
[21:27:57] <zeeshan|2> *saving
[21:28:02] <tjtr33> tenths is way out of tolerance for bearings
[21:28:21] <zeeshan|2> sounds reasonable
[21:28:25] <zeeshan|2> i guess for gears it not as bad
[21:28:26] <zeeshan|2> couple thou is ok
[21:28:54] <furrywolf> probably used for gears that are lapped in pairs...
[21:31:41] <furrywolf> andypugh: http://www.type2.com/bartnik/images/cvhubpit3.jpg shows the V-pairs of grooves better. I'd need to re-rtfm, but it's something about forcing the cage to center properly
[21:31:57] <furrywolf> also, that shows what happens if you run one without grease!
[21:32:22] <zeeshan|2> i dont see why you need to make it super precise
[21:32:27] <zeeshan|2> couldnt you use different ball sizes
[21:32:30] <zeeshan|2> to meet tolerance again
[21:33:54] <furrywolf> that's assuming the size change is perfectly uniform across the entire part, even though the grooves are wrapped around a sphere, etc. :P
[21:34:20] <ThisSucks> or there is error on the radius of the groove.
[21:34:37] <zeeshan|2> it shoul;d be pretty damn uniform :P
[21:34:44] <ThisSucks> ball suffers birnelling and you have junk in 100mi
[21:34:45] <zeeshan|2> and the internet says
[21:34:51] <zeeshan|2> these types of joints are case hardened
[21:35:04] <zeeshan|2> so they're gonna distort even less
[21:35:56] <furrywolf> cv joints have probably the highest pressures of any part on a vehicle.
[21:36:11] <andypugh> Injectors
[21:36:27] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: didnt you heat treat stuff
[21:36:27] <furrywolf> andypugh: injectors don't need to be packed full of expensive $$$$ high-moly grease. :)
[21:37:31] <andypugh> zeeshan|2: Yes, I used to be a metallurgist, and have done some fairly exotic heat treatment. Like quenching in 300C molten NaOH
[21:37:40] <zeeshan|2> then cmon
[21:37:45] <zeeshan|2> you should know the recipes
[21:37:57] <zeeshan|2> to minimize / eliminate distortion
[21:38:00] <furrywolf> andypugh: think of the forces on the contact point of those six balls... figure you're dumping 1000ftlbs or more through those six balls, and they're at 45 degree angles, on only a 1.5" radius...
[21:38:14] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: any ball bearing
[21:38:17] <furrywolf> and they're spheres in a different-radius groove, so there's only a single point contact...
[21:38:19] <zeeshan|2> is seeing loads like that
[21:38:22] <zeeshan|2> those things arent anything special
[21:38:36] <zeeshan|2> its a point contact
[21:38:39] <zeeshan|2> large hertzian stress
[21:38:49] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: sure, if you take a ball bearing and applied many tons of radial loading to it. :P
[21:39:07] <andypugh> Fuel injectors run at 20,000 psi. That’s alarmingly close to the yield point of metals.
[21:39:17] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: what part of em?
[21:39:24] <furrywolf> what injectors are these? lol
[21:39:32] <ThisSucks> Direct injection
[21:39:36] <andypugh> The parts with 20,000 psi fuel in, mainly
[21:39:39] <ThisSucks> any diesel
[21:39:47] <zeeshan|2> only 10 ksi away from yield
[21:39:48] <zeeshan|2> hehe
[21:39:58] <furrywolf> I seem to remember diesel fuel is in the range of 2000psi, not 20000psi...
[21:40:07] <ThisSucks> that is mechanical
[21:40:23] <ThisSucks> the common rail stuff is much higher
[21:40:24] <furrywolf> and given as you can transport it from the pump to the injector in generic rusty steel thin-wall lines...
[21:40:25] <zeeshan|2> gotta use those fuel pumps
[21:40:28] <zeeshan|2> for my home made water jet!
[21:40:52] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: tiny lines can take a lot of pressure :P
[21:41:09] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: I don't remember the exact math anymore, but if you work it out, the stress on the CV joints is higher than any other part in a car. heh.
[21:41:19] <furrywolf> none of the bearings in a car see side loading like that
[21:41:20] <andypugh> The lines are quite thick-walled
[21:41:36] <andypugh> But, I might have my unit conversions wrong.
[21:41:43] <furrywolf> I have a ford spider somewhere... I can go check it tomorrow if you want... I'm pretty sure they're just normal wall tubing. :)
[21:41:53] <zeeshan|2> furry for some reason i think a wheel bearing sees more
[21:41:55] <tjtr33> lines dont see 20K, this must be some localized pressure
[21:42:18] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: wheel bearings are tapered roller bearings. much less stress.
[21:42:27] <furrywolf> rollers have big contact patches. :)
[21:42:39] <zeeshan|2> not all are tapered roller
[21:42:51] <zeeshan|2> but yuea :P
[21:43:02] <andypugh> http://www.delphi.com/docs/default-source/old-delphi-files/4567b695-e76c-4fbf-98ed-6ba5d76079e5-pdf.pdf?sfvrsn=0
[21:43:24] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: thanks for showing me not to crash into a diesel car
[21:43:25] <andypugh> 2000 bar = 29,000 psi
[21:43:27] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: cv joints are the only part that specify special extreme pressure grease. wheel bearings you can grease with just about anything. :)
[21:43:29] <tjtr33> i imagine a diff in the nearing ( sheared forces, not in same place for long) and the injector forces
[21:43:46] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: lies
[21:43:53] <zeeshan|2> the pivot for a clutch
[21:43:56] <zeeshan|2> requires moly grease too
[21:44:09] <zeeshan|2> but i think youre right
[21:44:17] <zeeshan|2> the cv joint sees some high localized stress
[21:44:43] <furrywolf> for the clutch it's mostly a temperature thing.
[21:45:02] <andypugh> That same document says that their newer posher pumps do 2500 bar
[21:45:11] <tjtr33> heh 2Kbar, that'd put your eye out!
[21:45:21] <zeeshan|2> andypugh: i really wanna use one of those and start a waterjet project
[21:45:24] <zeeshan|2> if they are cheap enough
[21:45:24] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:45:34] <ThisSucks> Caterpillar Unit injection is 3kBar
[21:45:35] <tjtr33> incredibly small volume tho
[21:45:36] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: they can't even pump modern diesel reliably, much less water. :P
[21:45:45] <andypugh> They rely _heavily_ on fuel lubricity
[21:45:50] <furrywolf> stupid ulsd...
[21:45:53] <zeeshan|2> fine
[21:45:59] <zeeshan|2> itll be a diesel-garnet cutter
[21:45:59] <zeeshan|2> ok
[21:46:40] <andypugh> What could _possibly_ go wrong?
[21:46:49] <greg> hydrostatic pressure don't necesarily result in high stress on the component think of a bullet being made of lead being shot at 30,000 -50,000psi
[21:47:28] * furrywolf notes bullets deform themselves to fit the barrel of the gun due to the forces on them...
[21:47:36] <greg> a little
[21:47:43] <zeeshan|2> wut
[21:47:46] <tjtr33> and soft metal
[21:47:47] <zeeshan|2> the equations are simple
[21:47:50] <andypugh> greg: Bullets get to run away, injector internals don’t
[21:47:53] <zeeshan|2> sigma = pr / t
[21:47:59] <zeeshan|2> stress is stress
[21:48:11] <zeeshan|2> sigma being stress
[21:48:19] <zeeshan|2> p and sigma are directly proportional
[21:48:33] <tjtr33> stop with the tau sigma stiff and say stress :)
[21:48:37] <zeeshan|2> no
[21:48:45] <zeeshan|2> thats how iremember it!
[21:48:48] <zeeshan|2> itll mess with my mind
[21:49:03] <andypugh> I doubt that a bullet see the 50,000 psi. (my “running away” was a little glib, but captures the essence of pressure pulses in gasses)
[21:49:09] <tjtr33> fine but i remmeber tau as the inverse of duty cycle and you confuse me
[21:49:23] <zeeshan|2> tjtr33: haha
[21:49:26] <zeeshan|2> damn electrical people
[21:49:39] <greg> which component sees this stress? The needle?
[21:49:56] <tjtr33> i thought the opening orifice thingy
[21:50:03] <zeeshan|2> greg: the tube
[21:50:05] <zeeshan|2> that is holding the fluid
[21:50:17] <greg> sure, but that's nothing to worry about
[21:50:17] <zeeshan|2> this is the stress that tries to rip it apart
[21:50:50] <zeeshan|2> it'll only cut someones hand off
[21:50:52] <zeeshan|2> it went off :P
[21:50:59] <zeeshan|2> *if
[21:51:47] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: it's common to bleed air from diesels by loosening the nuts on the lines. if you do this, always wear a glove and put a rag over the fitting, because it sprays out rather dangerously. :)
[21:51:47] <andypugh> Most of the injector internals see that pressure. It is enough to change internal dimensions a fair bit, for example.
[21:52:19] <andypugh> There is quite a lot going on inside a diesel injector, as they are a piloted valve,
[21:52:23] <greg> what are those tips made of?
[21:52:31] <ThisSucks> Realize that the rail pressure is modulated. It not always at full output
[21:52:44] <zeeshan|2> even better
[21:52:47] <zeeshan|2> its not fatiguing shit!
[21:52:53] <zeeshan|2> *now
[21:53:48] <tjtr33> piloted as in they have help? like pneumatic piloted valves that only have to overcome a small force to switch a large force?
[21:54:06] <ThisSucks> No, small squirts of fuel before the main event
[21:54:20] <ThisSucks> that is how they cut the noise down
[21:54:50] <furrywolf> I haven't worked much on common-rail diesels, only mechanical injection.
[21:54:58] <andypugh> ThisSucks: Well, actually, I wasn’t talking about Pilot injections, I was talking about valve actuation
[21:54:59] <andypugh> http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US8100344B2/US08100344-20120124-D00002.png
[21:55:07] <furrywolf> there's no "squirts before the main event" :P
[21:55:16] <zeeshan|2> i see a bunch of cylindrical pressure vessels in that diagram
[21:55:50] <zeeshan|2> are those springs super stiff
[21:55:52] <furrywolf> andypugh: you work at ford, right? can I blame you for the evil copper injector cups on powerstrokes? :P
[21:56:10] <greg> Furry where have you been? last I heard it was up to 5 injection events per cycle
[21:56:25] <ThisSucks> andypugh: Ahh, thought we where talking piezoelectric injectors.
[21:56:31] <furrywolf> the ones that crack, and the first sign of it is when you discover your entire oil pan has been pumped into your radiator. :)
[21:56:53] <andypugh> I think 117 is the Piezo stack that opens a tiny hole in 153 that changes the pressure balance on each side of 31 that allows the holes 12b to open
[21:57:11] <furrywolf> greg: <furrywolf> I haven't worked much on common-rail diesels, only mechanical injection.
[21:57:25] <andypugh> ThisSucks: I was, but I was talking about how they work internally, not how they are used.
[21:57:59] <ThisSucks> Who's technology is this? Bosch?
[21:58:04] <furrywolf> ThisSucks: he means pilot-operated as in a pilot-operated solenoid valve or similar, where a small valve applies forces to something that actuates the large valve
[21:58:14] <andypugh> That looks like a Bosch one to me
[21:58:28] <tjtr33> thats a normally closed device, the pressure would preexist in kanal 11c, not created by the injector ( from what i think i saw :)
[21:58:31] <greg> i'll look into the material and stresses this week. That sort of stuff is intersting
[21:58:39] <andypugh> Delphi tend to use solenoids.
[21:58:47] <ThisSucks> furrywolf: I know what he mean, thank you.
[21:59:07] <zeeshan|2> Getting tense in here
[21:59:08] <andypugh> Actually, I have changed my mind I think that one looks like a Continental injector.
[21:59:12] <zeeshan|2> who wants to arm wrestle
[21:59:24] <tjtr33> how about them cubbies?
[21:59:36] <zeeshan|2> http://www.intellicast.com/Local/WxMap.aspx
[21:59:38] <zeeshan|2> im about to get owned
[21:59:43] <zeeshan|2> bah i just realized you guys cant see that
[21:59:50] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: at least you don't have fires.
[22:00:05] <andypugh> tjtr33: Yes, the fuel is fed at full pressure to the injector. The injector just lets it out the end, or doesn;t.
[22:00:15] <tjtr33> windsor detroit or chicago?
[22:00:16] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: my neighbor had to evacuate his ranch due to them...
[22:00:17] <zeeshan|2> we might get a tornado
[22:00:21] <zeeshan|2> im gonna go watch this storm
[22:00:32] <zeeshan|2> hopefully icatch a tornado
[22:00:33] <tjtr33> andypugh, thought so thx for making me not crazy
[22:00:40] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: that sux
[22:01:21] <tjtr33> so the pressure _is_ in the rail, wow
[22:01:24] <andypugh> I have worked with these things for 10 years and I still can’t figure out that specific diagram :-)
[22:01:47] <furrywolf> there's, at a rough estimate, 150,000 acres on fire around here right now
[22:01:47] <furrywolf> the largest fire was 50,000 acres this morning
[22:01:58] <furrywolf> I think another was 30,000ish.
[22:02:12] <andypugh> furrywolf: Do you have enough marshmallows?
[22:02:29] <tjtr33> yeah but no sticks left
[22:02:32] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy shower time
[22:02:43] <andypugh> andy sleep time
[22:02:46] <andypugh> Night all
[22:02:49] <tjtr33> night all
[22:46:24] <mozmck> zlog