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[00:01:39] <Just_pink> what do you do with broken projector?
[00:01:57] <XXCoder> broken? nah it works just fune
[00:01:59] <XXCoder> fine
[00:02:40] <XXCoder> it was toy projector, it was crappy and nobody bought it at $150 orginial price
[00:02:56] <XXCoder> but at $50 some bought, I got one at $25
[00:03:01] <XXCoder> one of my best buys
[00:03:23] <XXCoder> my projector logged over thousand hours lol it was before I had job to go to
[00:06:06] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Eyeclops-04959-EyeClops-Mini-Projector/dp/B0024I8H42
[00:06:11] <XXCoder> lol
[00:06:33] <XXCoder> pictures is lies, it is simply not that bright
[00:06:45] <XXCoder> my flashlight can do brighter than it lol
[00:09:27] <Just_pink> look like junk
[00:13:38] <XXCoder> it is
[00:13:43] <XXCoder> but it works well
[00:13:54] <Just_pink> http://www.turnxon.com/articles/articles_2.html
[00:14:06] <XXCoder> though I want to upgrade its light source so it can be brighter
[00:14:23] <Just_pink> look the the yellow / green drawing
[00:14:30] <XXCoder> yeah
[00:14:40] <Just_pink> XXCoder: it's lcd or dlp?
[00:14:42] <XXCoder> interesting
[00:15:09] <XXCoder> its a method to remove material
[00:15:24] <XXCoder> by electricity rather than physical removal by tool like most cncs do
[00:16:29] <XXCoder> facepalm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqHrTtvFFIs
[00:17:28] <Just_pink> XXCoder: the projector is LCD or DLP?
[00:17:39] <Just_pink> I know this video..
[00:17:42] <XXCoder> eyeclops? led yeah
[00:19:45] <Just_pink> but what make the video..
[00:19:54] <Just_pink> the pixels..
[00:20:14] <XXCoder> basically it is lcd screen inside with led lighting behind it
[00:20:25] <XXCoder> the resultant light is focused by lens on screen
[00:20:49] <XXCoder> you can make one using your old lcd montior, though it will be quite large
[00:22:11] <Just_pink> I dont have a wall to use it..
[00:22:31] <Just_pink> everything full with tools here..
[00:24:08] <XXCoder> yeah, it needs room to be very dark lol
[00:24:28] <XXCoder> however if you make your own projector you can simply use very bright light
[00:28:05] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v0ZXnoKbxx8
[00:28:07] <XXCoder> dang
[00:34:27] <Just_pink> XXCoder: I want to make one of tham..
[00:34:32] <Just_pink> look soo nice.
[00:34:40] <XXCoder> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929081
[00:34:45] <XXCoder> more videos
[00:35:47] <Just_pink> XXCoder: dont start with me my other hobby is carbon and fiber glass.
[00:36:00] <XXCoder> superlight planes!
[00:36:05] <XXCoder> lol
[00:37:30] <Just_pink> what is superlight ?
[00:38:03] <XXCoder> basically very light craft (compared to more normal weight ones)
[00:38:59] <Just_pink> I want flying wing with 1 motor 2 servos
[00:39:18] <XXCoder> I bet you can get away with just one
[00:39:26] <XXCoder> one motor and one servo I mean
[00:40:15] <englishman> Fpv is pretty simple stuff these days
[00:40:29] <Just_pink> XXCoder: how 1 servo?
[00:41:19] <Just_pink> you have just 2 ailerons
[00:41:43] <englishman> Elevons :x
[00:41:55] <XXCoder> hmm I may be wrong
[00:41:59] <Just_pink> http://api.ning.com/files/OfjlpdQiogL5qu5sk3bW5oPyRnjCs9zkoP4RyK6vZEtD498Fvn8WM2AzNPfC7UIAklhcrwjYck28-4DsKstLeA__/IMG_0924.jpg
[00:42:03] <XXCoder> englishman: yeah?
[00:42:31] <XXCoder> not bad :) I want it but I doubt I can use it unless it has image stabilizers because I get dizzy and sick easyily
[00:43:28] <Just_pink> pull 2 servos - you go up, push 2 servos go down, 1 up 1 down roll, 1 up 1 zero turn
[00:43:47] <Just_pink> with 1 you can just do rolls
[00:44:10] <englishman> Sure here's some crappy footage from last year.
https://youtu.be/SX7Mn6uGALU
[00:44:35] <XXCoder> Just_pink: yeah thats what I re-considered
[00:46:12] <Just_pink> but first I need a stack light :(
[00:47:07] <Just_pink> somo times I'm think way I'm doing that soooo hard and complicated.
[00:47:12] <Just_pink> some*
[00:51:10] <XXCoder> well if you enjoy it why not
[00:51:32] <XXCoder> gonna go, be back in bit
[01:43:55] <XXCoder> back
[02:08:14] <Just_pink> XXCoder: I'm still here working on the code (hate to program)
[02:08:22] <XXCoder> lol
[02:08:44] <XXCoder> I actually rather program but I dont know enough to make living on programming
[02:11:47] <Deejay> moi
[02:12:07] <Deejay> +n
[02:12:08] <Deejay> ;)
[02:12:43] <XXCoder> hey
[02:16:37] <Just_pink> hi Deejay
[03:44:23] <kengu> hmm.. is it some emp or what is it then causing steppers to jump when ever laser is firing
[03:45:18] <Just_pink> EMP?
[03:45:34] <Just_pink> kengu: ^
[03:45:59] <kengu> emp as electromagnetic pulse but more in this case as some electro interference
[03:46:27] <Just_pink> what drivers you using?
[03:48:27] <Just_pink> kengu: ?
[03:49:11] <kengu> i seem to have lost the photos on those and for some reason it is not in the documentation.. but some chinese what ever came with the cutter in the first place
[03:49:22] <kengu> I thought I had the data stored
[03:49:34] <Just_pink> someone here know arduino?
[03:50:06] <archivist> kengu, improve grounding, screening etc
[03:50:22] <kengu> uhm.. well.. the data was for plasma cutter actually. the lasercutter might be using a more all-in-one board for the steppers
[03:50:23] <Deejay> and power supply :)
[03:50:55] <kengu> archivist: there is grounding everywhere and boxes and cases everywhere
[03:51:06] <archivist> is the laser supply also driving the steppers
[03:51:38] <kengu> nope. complitely different source
[03:52:12] <archivist> but is the laser current going through the same ground
[03:52:49] <archivist> anyway it is EMI not EMP
[03:53:06] <kengu> archivist: that is what I was after (;
[03:54:40] <archivist> common grounds means the stepper driver input can see the noise as a step/dir signal
[03:54:49] <kengu> laser hv power supply and other electronics meet at wall outlets
[03:55:51] <archivist> there is also electromagnetic radiated noise, and capacitively coupled noise
[03:57:15] <archivist> those two need separation, screening and/or a grounded shield in between
[04:00:18] <archivist> there are two parts to noise as well, the amount emitted and the immunity a device has to local noise
[04:01:39] <archivist> I have seen some bad stepper driver/breakout board combinations
[04:01:40] <kengu> yeah. I was hoping to try with different stepper drivers but did not find any replacements off the shelf
[04:02:19] <kengu> so it is on hold on that at the moment
[04:02:21] <archivist> make sure you dont have double opto between the breakout and driver
[04:02:34] <XXCoder> mybe both has its own current stabilizer
[04:02:45] <XXCoder> forgot what its called exactly, it smooths current out
[04:03:28] <archivist> with an opton on both the breakout and driver then the driver is not driven hard enough and becomes noise prone
[04:03:44] <archivist> with an opto
[04:15:54] <monkeyisl> mach3 board can't be done with usb?
[04:16:47] <archivist> asking for mach support in here ?
[04:17:19] <monkeyisl> sup,, i don't know what i;m doing so..
[04:18:00] <archivist> usb is bad news for cnc due to latency problems
[04:19:28] <monkeyisl> is there somethine like arduino board for cnc?
[04:20:39] <XXCoder> yes
[04:20:43] <XXCoder> arduino
[04:20:50] <archivist> nothing we recommend in here
[04:20:58] <XXCoder> yeah
[04:21:08] <XXCoder> heard of raspberry pi for cnc controller though
[04:21:12] <archivist> in here we use linuxcnc
[04:21:24] <monkeyisl> ahh
[04:21:31] <archivist> more robust. more axes
[04:21:55] <XXCoder> even supports 4d milling. nah kidding
[09:32:12] <Tom_itx> quiet morning
[09:41:04] <JT-Shop> fixing to go for a ride
[09:41:34] <Tom_itx> seems there was another 3.9 this AM
[09:41:39] <Tom_itx> http://earthquaketrack.com/p/united-states/kansas/recent
[09:41:53] <Tecan> how far away can quakes usually be felt ?
[09:42:05] <Tom_itx> we feel those in Ks
[09:42:25] <Tom_itx> it depends on the soil
[09:55:43] <Tecan> 6.0 in Indonesia this morning too.
[09:57:42] <Tecan> do the deeper ones have a bigger epicenter ?
[12:16:15] <zeeshan> ZzzZZz
[12:16:46] <Tom_itx> up too late partying?
[12:16:52] <zeeshan> no
[12:20:56] <zeeshan> im attempting at my first video w/ some video editting
[12:21:25] <malcom2073> Sweet
[12:21:32] <malcom2073> timelapse of the drilling of that plate?
[12:21:35] <zeeshan> yes
[12:21:36] <zeeshan> haha
[12:21:43] <malcom2073> cool
[12:43:35] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, what are you using to edit it?
[12:44:00] <Tom_itx> and does it let you combine multiple clips?
[12:47:15] <zeeshan> virtualdub
[12:47:16] <zeeshan> and yes
[12:47:37] <zeeshan> its very picky though
[12:47:44] <zeeshan> not the easiest to use software, but hey its free
[12:49:41] <Tom_itx> picky how?4
[13:03:35] <malcom2073> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KLNJ8d8Vqc
[13:03:39] <malcom2073> Amazing amount of waste
[13:05:35] <andypugh> It makes no sense at all to machine an engine block from solid. Except that the word “billet” sells parts.
[13:05:53] <malcom2073> You can easily charge twice as much, putting billet in there
[13:05:55] <malcom2073> if not more
[13:06:10] <Tom_itx> malcom2073, we cut first article trailing links for landing gear from a Ti billet about that size
[13:06:18] <Tom_itx> 6 ea
[13:06:43] <Tom_itx> before the forgings were approved and produced
[13:07:46] <zeeshan> andypugh: how would you do it?
[13:07:54] <Tom_itx> iirc, about a week or more ea to macine
[13:07:59] <Tom_itx> running 24//7
[13:08:24] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, make a casting
[13:08:30] <zeeshan> cast doesnt make sense for a one off
[13:08:45] <zeeshan> which is what a lot of billet blocks are
[13:08:46] <zeeshan> "one offs"
[13:08:47] <Tom_itx> you have control of grain direction may be an advantage
[13:08:53] <zeeshan> also a casting is weaker
[13:09:08] <malcom2073> Most high performance engine failures are not in the block though
[13:09:16] <andypugh> Thinking about it, the first prototypes of our new car had suspension arms machined from solid. But that was by way of checking geometry before comitting to forging dies.
[13:09:20] <malcom2073> Or rather, not the block metal failing
[13:09:30] <zeeshan> forging dies and casting dies are$$$$$$$$
[13:09:40] <zeeshan> and casting is still an art , after all these years
[13:09:43] <zeeshan> your first die might not work
[13:09:50] <zeeshan> needs mods, then pour, then needs mods etc
[13:09:51] <andypugh> For a one-off engine block, 3d print it :-)
[13:10:00] <Tom_itx> andypugh, same here.. they tried to use exhisting forgings but they weren't strong enough
[13:10:03] <Sync_> or machine from solid
[13:10:09] <zeeshan> but i agree with you, a lot of ricers buy an engine block that says billet
[13:10:16] <zeeshan> they have no clue why, but they know its bad ass
[13:10:17] <zeeshan> lol
[13:10:38] <zeeshan> malcom2073: ive seen failures where the main rod cops resonate
[13:10:40] <zeeshan> *caps
[13:10:44] <zeeshan> causing a connecting rod failure
[13:10:58] <zeeshan> you'll hear terms like "6 bolt mains"
[13:11:04] <malcom2073> zeeshan: That'
[13:11:09] <malcom2073> That's a failrue of not having enough bolts in the mains :P
[13:11:12] <zeeshan> describing how a block is strong
[13:11:14] <malcom2073> Block strength won't help that nearly as much as more bolts
[13:11:17] <zeeshan> no its not only that
[13:11:20] <zeeshan> but its cause the block deflects
[13:11:29] <zeeshan> you need more meat there
[13:11:34] <andypugh> This is how we make one-off engine blocks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MaVaqNr3U
[13:11:43] <malcom2073> More meat is a design defect, not a material defect
[13:12:08] <zeeshan> andypugh: if you compare the time to do that method
[13:12:13] <zeeshan> and machining a billet
[13:12:17] <zeeshan> do you think they'd be very close?
[13:12:42] <zeeshan> malcom2073: i understand, i am just saying blocks do cause failures
[13:12:53] <zeeshan> they're not as big as rod or piston failure, but they do fail :P
[13:12:57] <malcom2073> Sure, edges cases are everywhere :-P
[13:12:59] <Tom_itx> don't they have to let castings age?
[13:13:00] <andypugh> Printing is faster. Shipping to the foundry adds some time.
[13:13:10] <zeeshan> how much faster?
[13:13:14] <zeeshan> 20% 50%
[13:13:21] <zeeshan> ~
[13:13:28] <andypugh> But, you basically can’t machine an effective water jacket.
[13:13:47] <zeeshan> those fancy 5 axis do some crazy work on water jackets
[13:13:47] <Tom_itx> they use cylinder inserts
[13:13:50] <Sync_> that's why they all use inserts
[13:15:21] <andypugh> The reason we use printed moulds is is that the bulk-production parts will be castings.
[13:16:05] <Tom_itx> are they testing the mold as well as the castings?
[13:16:27] <andypugh> I don’t know, It isnt the area I work in.
[13:21:50] <Tom_itx> i wonder what type of aluminum they cast with for blocks
[13:23:21] <zeeshan> i know some use as356
[13:23:24] <zeeshan> a356
[13:32:28] <furrywolf> picked up a treadmill motor for $2 yesterday... no controller though.
[13:39:45] <furrywolf> hrmm. apparantly, if you search for machinery's handbook on ebay, it suggests you really meant "macbook". I wonder how much apple paid for that...
[13:40:09] <furrywolf> mine is AWOL, picking up another
[13:45:39] <furrywolf> it starts with mac, and ends in book, but I didn't typo the "hinery's hand" in the middle. lol
[13:46:43] <furrywolf> is there any reason not to pick up a ten year old copy? I don't think anything has changed. lol
[13:47:00] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.XMachinery%27s+handbook.TRS0&_nkw=Machinery%27s+handbook&_sacat=0
[13:47:17] <Tom_itx> just new materials or processes would be it
[13:47:30] <Tom_itx> mine's 25th edition
[13:48:12] <Tom_itx> another good one is 'machinists' ready reference'
[13:48:34] <furrywolf> I don't remember what edition mine was. it had a hard red cover and fit in a drawer on my toolbox. I used it maybe twice. lol
[13:48:45] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Machinery%27s+handbook&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmachinists%27+ready+reference.TRS0&_nkw=machinists%27+ready+reference&_sacat=0
[13:49:18] <Tom_itx> quite handy
[13:49:48] <Tom_itx> i have the 8th on that one
[13:50:02] <furrywolf> 29th edition appears to be current
[13:51:08] <furrywolf> I really should dig my toolbox out of storage... it's in there SOMEWHERE. heh.
[14:10:44] <Sync_> heh.
[14:10:53] <Sync_> finally got around finishing up the rotary
[14:11:20] <Sync_> squished the bellows coupling back into shape, if it fatigues I have to think about it again
[14:11:37] <archivist> 13th ed is good enough for me :)
[14:13:31] <Sync_> http://sync-hv.de/~tmp/lehmann3.jpg bellows in question
[14:13:44] <Spida> somebody got experience in milling foam, like for putting in transport cases like the famous peli cases?
[14:18:24] <furrywolf> I don't know if you can mill foam...
[14:18:28] <Rab> Not I, but this is pretty wicked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcYrAh_c9xw
[14:18:32] <furrywolf> seems like it'd tear before it cuts
[14:18:50] <furrywolf> at least the pelican case I have has very soft egg-carton foam that I can't imagine cutting.
[14:19:43] <Rab> Looks like a reciprocating knife is state-of-the-art for cutting foam rubber (mechanically).
[14:20:01] <furrywolf> that'd work a lot better than trying to mill it.
[14:20:19] <Sync_> Rab: waterjet
[14:20:22] <Rab> Maybe it could be lasercut, but I can imagine some really nasty scenarios.
[14:20:25] <furrywolf> how many identical pieces do you need? could you use two layers and die-cut the top one?
[14:20:58] <Rab> I strongly suspect the Pelican pick-n-place foam is diecut.
[14:21:23] <Rab> Pick-n-pluck?
[14:22:05] <furrywolf> do you have an indexable spindle? make a sawzall blade extender, feed it through the spindle, strap your sawzall on top, grind a dull sawzall blade to a knife edge? :)
[14:22:53] <furrywolf> or a jigsaw
[14:22:54] <Rab> That's essentially what this is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia_yJns4_tE
[14:23:43] <furrywolf> the stuff that came with my pelican case is very low density open-cell foam
[14:23:50] <Rab> That foam may be more rigid, it's closed-cell.
[14:24:38] <Rab> CNC contoured open-cell foam rubber would be awesome, I'd like to see that done.
[14:25:00] <Sync_> I had that done for one of my peli cases
[14:25:03] <Sync_> they used a waterjet
[14:25:24] <Rab> Sync_, 2D layers?
[14:25:46] <Sync_> they have a 5 axis flow
[14:25:53] <Rab> ooo
[14:26:33] <Sync_> they are affordable to lease and with foam it pays off quickly because everybody wants 3d shaped foam
[14:26:44] <furrywolf> I'd probably invent something with a jigsaw stuck to the top of my quill
[14:27:02] <archivist> hot wire cutter
[14:28:34] <furrywolf> I tried hot wire on ABS once. that did not work. lol
[14:30:58] <archivist> there is a special kins in linuxcnc for hotwire
[14:34:07] <Spida> I have used pick-n-pluck before, but I doubt it will be stable enough for what I intend to do.
[14:34:31] <Spida> I have heard using a brush for milling foam could work, though
http://www.fursuit.de/cms/index.php/Bild:SibSerag_Schaumstoff_fraesen.jpg
[14:34:58] <zeeshan> Spida: why are you trying to mill foam?
[14:35:09] <zeeshan> are you trying to make a prototype/
[14:35:23] <furrywolf> yay furries. :)
[14:36:18] <Spida> no, I am looking for somebody to do it for me :-) (if we can agree on some kind of payment)
[14:36:29] <zeeshan> what are you trying to make
[14:36:36] <zeeshan> they make special millable foam
[14:36:44] <Spida> foam protection for sticking a microscope in a peli case
[14:36:49] <zeeshan> oh
[14:37:16] <archivist> ich would have done that on his wire cutter
[14:37:16] <furrywolf> the owens-corning pink foam feels like it'd mill really well, but that's probably too firm for your purpose.
[14:37:22] <furrywolf> I tried using it to make a radome once.
[14:37:25] <zeeshan> where did ich go
[14:37:27] <Spida> i have heard soaking the foam with water and freezing it might be an option... I see several downsides of that, though
[14:37:29] <zeeshan> havent seen him in here
[14:37:47] <furrywolf> hrmm, frozen saturated foam... interesting idea, at least. worth trying. :P
[14:37:48] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/Fb5Sfxq cloud printing
[14:37:54] <archivist> Spida, often protection stuff is made in layers then glued
[14:38:06] <CaptHindsight> is it open cell foam?
[14:39:08] <Spida> archivist: since the largest part in the end will be something like 35*50*30cm, it has to be glued, yes. at least because foam in this size seems to be hard to source
[14:39:10] <furrywolf> set your scroll saw next to your mill, build a mill table that sticks out over the scrollsaw? :)
[14:39:41] <furrywolf> is that helium-blown soap bubbles? lol
[14:39:43] <CaptHindsight> just pour your own foam from liquid
[14:39:53] <archivist> scroll saw or band saw
[14:40:25] <furrywolf> that's another idea... just make a mold and pour two-part foam into it.
[14:41:09] <archivist> and make me one for my theodolite :)
[14:41:30] <CaptHindsight> sourcing small amounts of urethane foam is always a pain and expensive
[14:42:10] <Spida> and I assume that I need several kinds of foam. the microscope baseplate is a 270*370*7mm aluminium plate, and I will probably need rather hard foam for that
[14:42:22] <CaptHindsight> what do they pack styrofoam in when they ship it?
[14:42:40] <furrywolf> wrap the microscope in a bunch of bubble wrap and stuff it in the case. :P
[14:42:49] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: cardboard. :P
[14:42:50] <SpeedEvil> There is always the cryogenic milling option
[14:43:03] <CaptHindsight> CO2 chilled
[14:43:10] <Spida> furrywolf: I am trying to avoid taking several minutes for packing
[14:43:39] <furrywolf> Spida: if this is just a one-off thing, your best bet is probably a sharp kitchen knife and ten minutes of manual labor.
[14:44:02] <archivist> scalpel
[14:44:06] <SpeedEvil> chainsaw
[14:44:17] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: i like the idea of pouring
[14:44:18] <zeeshan> :)
[14:44:34] <zeeshan> and i also like furrywolf's idea
[14:44:49] <furrywolf> which one? I've come up with about a half dozen. :P
[14:44:54] <zeeshan> the last one
[14:45:18] <furrywolf> awww. you don't like my idea of a jigsaw with an extension down through the spindle? :P
[14:45:23] <zeeshan> no
[14:45:32] <zeeshan> :-)
[14:46:42] <furrywolf> Spida: I suspect that if you just did it by hand, assuming you only need one or several of these cases, you'd be done in less time than this conversation. :)
[14:47:31] <CaptHindsight> PVA and popcorn
[14:48:12] <furrywolf> how about a cutting torch and a CO2 blanket? :P
[14:48:52] <CaptHindsight> shredded newsprint and hay
[14:50:56] <furrywolf> how about a precision spray foam 3d printer? :P
[14:51:41] <archivist> you have to make the 3d scanner first to know the shape
[14:53:25] <Rab> Plenty of custom packing done by suspending the object in the case and filling plastic bags with expand-o-foam.
[14:54:04] <furrywolf> Rab: they even have pre-foamed bags you can buy for that. you break a little bag inside the big bag, and presto, bag-o-foam.
[14:54:12] <Rab> furrywolf, nice.
[14:55:57] <Rab> No reason that couldn't be done with some extra attention to detail, making nice sectional pads with handgrips for removal etc.
[14:56:31] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered in the past about instant popper
[14:56:55] <SpeedEvil> you take one single kernel of popcorn, and microwave heat it very very fast till it pops
[14:56:59] <Rab> Line with satin or velvet. Green felt for serious scientific business.
[14:57:10] <SpeedEvil> Rab: flock
[14:57:26] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: that doesn't seem useful or practical.
[14:57:36] <Rab> SpeedEvil, you don't want it coming off in the optical instruments.
[14:57:56] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: single servings of popcorn?
[14:58:00] <furrywolf> packing peanuts! :P
[14:58:11] <Rab> SpeedEvil, a stream of single kernels dropping through a microwave chamber?
[14:58:20] <SpeedEvil> Rab: pretty much
[14:58:26] * furrywolf absolutely hates people who ship things in packing peanuts without bagging it first, so they're mashed inside of every single opening, air vent, connector, fitting,...
[14:58:34] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: that too
[14:58:48] <Rab> It would be elite, expensive, and impractical, like Dyson products.
[14:59:08] <SpeedEvil> Rab: They have a mixer tap. For $3000
[14:59:47] <Rab> I undertook an experiment to use popcorn as a biodegradeable packing material, but it performed poorly.
[15:00:16] <furrywolf> use the starch peanuts if you want that.
[15:00:46] <Rab> SpeedEvil, does it aerosolize wet fecal matter as quickly as the wall-mounted Airblade(tm)?
[15:00:47] <CaptHindsight> clear hopper to hold the kernels, microwave maser to blast them as they free fall, air gun to fire them directly into your mouth
[15:01:22] <Sync_> Rab: why not use those cornstarch peanuts?
[15:01:23] <CaptHindsight> sounds like a poopstarter
[15:01:29] <Rab> CaptHindsight, not seeing butter/bacon grease/duck fat in that scenario.
[15:01:36] <Rab> Or salt, for that matter.
[15:01:59] * furrywolf doesn't like popcorn
[15:02:20] <Rab> Sync_, this was circa 1990...we hadn't heard of the starch peanuts, if they'd even been invented.
[15:03:14] <CaptHindsight> Rab: what varieties of popcorn did you try?
[15:03:15] <Rab> The starch peanuts still aren't super performant compared to polystyrene.
[15:03:27] <furrywolf> I kinda like the spray foam 3d printer idea... the door-and-window low-pressure foam doesn't expand too much... extrude it through a tiny nozzle in lots of passes...
[15:03:32] <Rab> CaptHindsight, cheap kind from Sam's Club.
[15:03:55] <SpeedEvil> Polystyrene isn't that bad to extrude
[15:03:56] <furrywolf> $6 a can from any hardware store, no mail-order consumables...
[15:04:02] <SpeedEvil> If you could get the pellets
[15:04:05] <Rab> But the nicer organic varieties all seem to produce a smaller, harder puff.
[15:04:15] <SpeedEvil> The nice pellets are polystyrene, soaked in butane.
[15:04:20] <SpeedEvil> (IIRC)
[15:04:27] <SpeedEvil> you simply extrude it and it expands
[15:04:43] <Rab> Can you recapture the butane?
[15:04:56] <SpeedEvil> Rab: 'yes'
[15:04:56] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: if you're ever bored, drop a block of styrofoam in a bowl of petrol.
[15:04:59] <SpeedEvil> but you don't want to
[15:05:08] <Sync_> it is not worth it
[15:05:20] <Sync_> if it were helium, maybe
[15:05:29] <Rab> furrywolf, or just hit it with a heat gun, unless you're trying to make napalm.
[15:05:30] <zeeshan> you guys dont know spida isn't even responding anymore
[15:05:33] <zeeshan> and you're still talking about this
[15:05:34] <zeeshan> haha
[15:05:44] <Sync_> is there a problem?
[15:05:45] <zeeshan> (dont = do)
[15:05:50] <zeeshan> yes i have a problem!
[15:06:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he/she is probably off taking my advice and just cutting it by hand. :P
[15:06:06] <zeeshan> haha
[15:07:49] <furrywolf> I'm more thinking of a general-purpose device... a 3d printer that used hardware store spray foam could make low-precision casting forms and stuff quite cheaply.
[15:08:40] <furrywolf> one problem is the cans are single-use-only, so you'd have to wait until you had several things to make if you were making small things
[15:08:41] <Rab> http://www.kaylamatheus.com/selected-portfolio-spray-foam-printer.html
[15:08:48] <furrywolf> another problem is it tends to expand a bit after spraying
[15:08:51] <CaptHindsight> mill with two nozzles for 2 part urethane in place of spindle
[15:09:04] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: that requires expensive mail-order foam
[15:09:09] <Rab> Scara arm, too.
[15:09:16] <CaptHindsight> then people can argue over controlling it with a PC or *dunio
[15:09:55] <furrywolf> Rab: that website seems to suck.
[15:10:09] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: hardware store foam was more expensive per cubic foot last I looked
[15:10:26] <Rab> furrywolf, academic art design.
[15:10:52] <furrywolf> it's trying to load some video that doesn't work, and it has dark grey text on a dark grey background, utterly unreadable.
[15:10:54] <CaptHindsight> foam sprayed backpack like in Ghostbusters
[15:11:21] <zeeshan> but the website looks pretty
[15:11:41] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: quite likely, but much easier to get. they have 12oz for $3.99 last I checked...
[15:11:41] <CaptHindsight> we forgot to mention marshmallow foam
[15:11:43] <zeeshan> that person who designed that website
[15:11:52] <zeeshan> i cant tell if he/she is a man or a woman
[15:11:55] <zeeshan> http://www.kaylamatheus.com/engagements.html
[15:12:15] <zeeshan> nm
[15:12:28] <Rab> Interesting, I could see the video but didn't realize it had text until I enabled jawascript.
[15:12:37] <Rab> (Vimeo already allowed)
[15:12:38] <furrywolf> something wrong with being androgynous? :P
[15:12:52] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: does it really matter anymore, documents should just say human or not human
[15:13:03] <zeeshan> ofcourse it matters
[15:13:29] <furrywolf> Rab: more proof the site sucks. :P
[15:14:07] <furrywolf> vimeo videos never work, so that explains it. apparantly web standards are not their strong point.
[15:14:33] <Rab> Shrug, works for me on Slackware.
[15:15:05] <Rab> The text is a series of transparent PNGs:
http://www.kaylamatheus.com/uploads/8/4/4/3/8443069/3801900_orig.png
[15:15:08] <CaptHindsight> what would be the criteria for male vs female? genetic test result, visual inspection (2 out of, 3 etc), message from Jesus my gardener?
[15:15:26] <Rab> CaptHindsight, whether zeeshan feels good about fapping.
[15:15:35] <furrywolf> looking at hisher pictures, it has serious resolution issues.
[15:15:46] <furrywolf> Rab: LOL. that would also explain the high degree of sucking.
[15:16:16] <zeeshan> rab nailed it
[15:16:23] <zeeshan> :D
[15:16:38] <furrywolf> the text is largely unreadable on the equally-dark background.
[15:16:55] <furrywolf> I don't see how people can spend so much work to make websites not work.
[15:17:26] <furrywolf> If you don't know how to write a website, you'd think the default would be to just stuff some text between a pair of body tags. But, nooo... people spend many hours making it worse.
[15:17:36] <archivist> easy, use js and other rubbish
[15:17:55] <Rab> She just used this:
http://www.weebly.com/
[15:18:34] <furrywolf> people complained the average geocities-hosted website was bad, but I'll take them over ones like this one any day.
[15:18:45] <furrywolf> they WORKED.
[15:18:50] <archivist> those make website sites have always sucked even in html days
[15:19:10] <kengu> Rab: I have used weebly
[15:20:37] <furrywolf> also, amount of money spent on webdesigners seems to have an inverse correlation to website quality.
[15:20:47] <kengu> but .. in other build (not the laser but a "toy router" perhaps ditching the arduino+ramps what ever and put mesa 7I43
[15:21:03] <furrywolf> websites work by default, so the only thing they can spend their time on is making them not work, so the more you pay them, the worse the site works.
[15:21:45] <archivist> furrywolf, be the way, the customers ask for suckage, unfortunately
[15:21:55] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: nasa.gov
[15:21:58] <Rab> I never got beyond vim, I don't think I can handle weebly.
[15:22:00] <SpeedEvil> I want to cut a bitch
[15:22:07] <SpeedEvil> It used to be sane.
[15:22:51] <furrywolf> "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at nasa.gov."
[15:23:40] <archivist> its
http://www.nasa.gov/
[15:23:49] <SpeedEvil> Probably best
[15:24:07] <archivist> I get a black screen
[15:24:33] <furrywolf> I haven't managed to load enough to begin displaying anything.
[15:24:34] <SpeedEvil> I have a 2K*1.5k monitor.
[15:24:40] <SpeedEvil> I get _12_ words on that screen.
[15:24:44] <CaptHindsight> works fine for me, just a bit slow maybe
[15:24:48] <furrywolf> if it's going to answer, it still hasn't yet.
[15:24:51] <SpeedEvil> And two images
[15:25:05] <furrywolf> still no data...
[15:25:13] <Rab> Considering how hard it is to remove spray foam from skin, this could be a serious offensive weapon:
http://www.gizmag.com/flying-3d-printer-robot/31975/
[15:25:15] <SpeedEvil> 14 words if you're being generous, and call 'Nasa TV' words not logo
[15:25:27] <furrywolf> ... and now it's done loading, on a black screen. no content at all.
[15:25:35] <Rab> furrywolf, that's the night sky.
[15:25:52] <archivist> with a black cat down a coal mine
[15:26:03] <kengu> ok. opinions on mesa 7I43
[15:26:21] <CaptHindsight> like it
[15:26:26] <furrywolf> it looks like they're attempting to load content with javascript, that doesn't work.
[15:26:51] <furrywolf> there is NO content in the page itself. just scripts.
[15:26:59] <Rab> furrywolf, correct, no content without allowing nasa.gov js.
[15:27:17] <CaptHindsight> kengu: what specifically are you wondering about?
[15:27:28] <archivist> totally borked method of web "design"
[15:27:49] <furrywolf> I have javascript on.
[15:27:55] <furrywolf> with no blocking of anything.
[15:28:00] <kengu> CaptHindsight: if i repeat myself from 7 minutes ago
[15:28:07] <kengu> but .. in other build (not the laser but a "toy router" perhaps ditching the arduino+ramps what ever and put mesa 7I43
[15:29:19] <kengu> i have used Mesa 6i25 + 7i76 in plasma cutter but it is a bit on the "expensive" side on this project
[15:29:28] <CaptHindsight> the 7i43 works with Linuxcnc, not the *duino apps
[15:30:48] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: but a slow net, so you're probably hitting a race condition somewhere
[15:31:21] <CaptHindsight> PC with LPT and breakout board is another option if cheapness is a major concern
[15:31:23] <Rab> The page takes a very long time to render, so maybe there's a timeout.
[15:31:39] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: yeah, there seems to be a race to who can design a website so bad every customer leaves.
[15:32:08] <SpeedEvil> Of course, it's designed for iphones.
[15:32:19] <SpeedEvil> Even if you manage to get to content, it's generally four words a page
[15:32:39] <kengu> CaptHindsight: yeah. that is the other plan
[15:34:53] <furrywolf> speaking of designed-for-iphones... I take it iphones have broken scrolling? adding fucking idiotic "return to top of page" buttons seems to be becoming popular, even ebay has one now...
[15:35:33] <CaptHindsight> anyone looking for a 30 x 45cm gantry router, no controls?
[15:36:07] <furrywolf> if it's free, sure! :P
[15:36:09] <kengu> always
[15:36:36] <kengu> CaptHindsight: those chinese ones I have been looking
[15:39:58] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/29zsN6tuwlR4 have an extra
[15:40:42] <furrywolf> bleh! got some "Hot" salsa... it's barely a mild.
[15:41:04] <furrywolf> Emerald Valley Organic Hot Salsa has almost no heat at all.
[15:46:00] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSzNcZHYvj8
[15:46:04] <zeeshan> finally got the video uploaded
[15:46:11] <zeeshan> video editting with virtualdub sux
[15:46:23] <zeeshan> subtitles should work too i think
[15:47:52] <Rab> zeeshan, nice, I want one of those with 10-32 holes.
[15:48:11] <Rab> Are they on a 1" grid, or what?
[15:48:16] <zeeshan> yes 1" grid
[15:50:09] <zeeshan> its pretty cool how you can compact 1h45m of machining down to a couple min
[15:50:15] <zeeshan> video editting ftw
[15:50:20] <zeeshan> editing
[15:50:54] <CaptHindsight> Sounds pretty noisy. Can I do this safely with my toddler in the living room? (and other stupid comments and questions)
[15:50:59] <Rab> Video quality looks good, high pitched sound during the sped up parts is pretty excruciating though. Could use a low-pass filter, or lower volume.
[15:51:15] <zeeshan> maybe music overlay?
[15:51:21] <zeeshan> i tried using a low pass filter
[15:51:24] <zeeshan> but i couldnt get it out =/
[15:52:06] <Rab> Also maybe some spindle lighting. Reasonably clear though.
[15:52:20] <zeeshan> i actually took out the little flourscent lights
[15:52:37] <zeeshan> i need to find replacements
[15:52:40] <CaptHindsight> it looks fine
[15:52:41] <zeeshan> ive never seen 8" long tubes before
[15:52:49] <CaptHindsight> I wouldn't change anything
[15:54:41] <zeeshan> rigid tapping made me realize i do need a braking resistor
[15:54:45] <zeeshan> so i can tap faster
[15:55:20] <just_pink> hi
[15:56:41] <Rab> zeeshan, sounds like something used in RV lighting or handheld fluorescent lanterns. LEDs seem like a winner.
[16:00:31] <Rab> zeeshan, nice video, nice machine!
[16:00:39] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdXf4XFFrkY Video Lighting Training | Shot Design | Film Look
[16:00:53] <cradek> how did you miss some holes!?
[16:00:57] <Rab> I see you test-fitting a screw during the tapping job. ;)
[16:01:13] <furrywolf> maybe I should skip the whole cnc thing and go into the salsa making business. surely I can't be the only one disgusted at how fucking mild every salsa sold around here as "hot" is.
[16:02:27] <Praesmeodymium> heh, the problem with the typical hot salsa is its either spicy ketchup or made by frat boys who are using hot as advertisng and in place of flavor
[16:03:21] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwtpJ3T8eK4 Cinematography Learn from a Master
[16:03:26] <Sync_> zeeshan: why are you spotting? get 4 flute ground drills and just ram the holes in there
[16:03:46] <zeeshan> cradek: modifying code by hand :(
[16:03:53] <furrywolf> Praesmeodymium: where I used to live, you could buy hot salsas that were actually hot... around here, they're all mild.
[16:03:54] <zeeshan> Rab: haha
[16:03:59] <cradek> well at least you didn't tap the ones that didn't drill
[16:04:04] <furrywolf> they had names like "xxxtra hot" and "hellfire" :)
[16:04:07] <archivist> zeeshan, straight flute hand tap?
[16:04:25] <zeeshan> Sync_: don't own any, but i'd like to buy a set of stub length drills
[16:04:26] <cradek> surely it was a spiral point
[16:04:29] <zeeshan> spiral point
[16:04:36] <pcw_home> tapping the undrilled holes would have made a good video
[16:04:46] <zeeshan> im too wuss to use regular taps
[16:04:50] <cradek> yes I'd just drill those with a screw machine length 135 degree split point
[16:04:53] <cradek> I love those things
[16:04:57] <furrywolf> zeeshan: if you don't have a set of stub length drills yet, you either don't do much drilling, or haven't learned how to resharpen a broken bit. :P
[16:04:58] <Rab> I assume the spotting drill is to countersink against surface burr from the tap?
[16:05:14] <furrywolf> I end up with stub-length drills whether I want them or not!
[16:05:56] <cradek> furrywolf: I just toss dull drills and buy new split-points. it's cheap enough if you do small stuff.
[16:06:06] <cradek> if I was constantly buying 3/4 drills maybe I'd reconsider
[16:06:21] <zeeshan> Rab: that's actually the main reason i started with a center drill so that i could have a smooth entry for the tap
[16:06:33] <furrywolf> good drills are NOT cheap.
[16:06:36] <zeeshan> very tiny chamfer left after drilling
[16:06:52] <Rab> zeeshan, sounds legit to me.
[16:06:58] <cradek> yeah
[16:07:06] <cradek> you did perfectly if there are no taps stuck in it when you're done
[16:07:12] <furrywolf> :P
[16:07:36] <furrywolf> and no punches, edm machines, or tap dissolver was needed. :)
[16:08:03] <zeeshan> without cradek, we wouldnt have this video
[16:08:07] <zeeshan> thank you!
[16:08:08] <zeeshan> :]
[16:08:21] <cradek> you're welcome :-)
[16:08:44] <cradek> also, without people working on emc for ten years before I even touched it
[16:08:46] * furrywolf still hasn't seen the video, as it's way too long, and going to take forever to load
[16:09:05] <zeeshan> long live emc
[16:09:35] <zeeshan> when people ask me why i use emc, i have a good solid answer
[16:09:42] <zeeshan> it's actually simple..
[16:09:58] <furrywolf> and works!
[16:10:39] <zeeshan> "it's the best cnc controller. it's not because of all the features it has packed such as real time control, but the fact that i can customize it to suit my needs very easily. there are no limitations"
[16:11:08] <zeeshan> try doing that with a fanuc or siemens control
[16:11:10] <cradek> I think the combination of free software and machining/manufacturing/"makers" is a really great one, and I'm proud to be a part of it
[16:11:37] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: apparantly it's not easy to customize it to wait for me to manually reverse the spindle switches during tapping. :)
[16:11:49] <XXCoder> zeeshan: get stub drills. those is hreat
[16:11:54] <XXCoder> great
[16:11:58] <zeeshan> XXCoder: when i have $200 to blow
[16:11:59] <zeeshan> i will
[16:11:59] <zeeshan> :)
[16:12:09] <XXCoder> far less runout and better holes when depth isnt very deep
[16:12:26] <zeeshan> which is like 90% of the time
[16:12:49] <XXCoder> I acciently used regular when stub would do twice before, and difference is very noticable.
[16:12:51] <zeeshan> for some reason i have been lately working on spigot type parts
[16:12:58] <zeeshan> where the spigot won't let me even use a regular dril
[16:13:02] <zeeshan> i gotta use extended length
[16:13:25] <XXCoder> thin collet extender with stub when possible
[16:13:53] * furrywolf gives up
[16:13:53] <XXCoder> one that turns er32 to er11 say
[16:13:57] <furrywolf> that video is only 1/5th loaded
[16:14:04] <zeeshan> furrywolf: sorry :-)
[16:14:20] <XXCoder> fur get video downloader
[16:14:24] <XXCoder> oh did you already use it
[16:14:47] <Deejay> gn8
[16:16:29] <furrywolf> tape the blow gun to the side of the head. :P
[16:16:33] <andypugh> kengu: I have been using a 7i43 on one of my machines for longer than I care to consider. They are good and the fact that the card and the PC can be separated is sometimes handy.
[16:17:18] <zeeshan> furrywolf: im actually looking at this:
[16:17:28] <furrywolf> does mesa have a cheap board that'll drive my treadmill motor, or should I wait until I find a whole treadmill I can steal a stock drive from?
[16:18:23] <zeeshan> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/231533487215-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
[16:18:27] <archivist> furrywolf, I doubt the treadmill drives are proper servo drives
[16:19:15] <archivist> andypugh, seems I get to explore another probe design
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271934477389
[16:19:29] <zeeshan> ...... gimme!
[16:19:42] <zeeshan> you got that dirt cheap
[16:19:45] <archivist> erm......not now
[16:19:59] <furrywolf> archivist: I'm thinking for a spindle motor more amenable to tapping than my stock motors
[16:20:32] <andypugh> archivist: Looks interesting. It seems to have about 25x as many pins as a probe normally needs.
[16:20:47] <zeeshan> andypugh: it's to scare people
[16:20:51] <zeeshan> prolly 2 are connected
[16:20:51] <zeeshan> :-)
[16:21:27] <archivist> must invalidate the warranty and explore inside
[16:21:33] <furrywolf> ah, the ubiquitous generic holddown set...
[16:22:53] <XXCoder> weird I dont see any pictures
[16:23:01] <archivist> furrywolf, my cnc lathe has a dc spindle motor, but no reverse at the moment, only do thread cutting not tapping on it
[16:23:26] <XXCoder> arch can't do one way tapping then you manually back it out?
[16:24:00] <furrywolf> archivist: I'm thinking for the mill spindle. I too have some lots-of-tapped-holes projects, but it seems that using my current motors won't work well.
[16:24:01] <archivist> usually doing one offs on the manual lathes anyway
[16:24:50] <pcw_home> its a scanning probe so the tip oscillates (so needs more control wires)
[16:24:53] <archivist> furrywolf, I have the spindle feedback to finish on the mill before it does tapping
[16:25:08] <zeeshan> what is the point of oscillating the probe tip
[16:25:40] <archivist> some of the renishaw probes move
[16:25:44] <pcw_home> Actually i thin it just measure deflection
[16:26:37] <pcw_home> so you drag it across a surface
[16:27:14] <zeeshan> ah
[16:28:37] <archivist> http://www.renishaw.com/en/ph20-5-axis-touch-trigger-system--12487
[16:31:03] <furrywolf> zeeshan: that's cute. (the add-on coolent/air thingy)
[16:31:51] <furrywolf> I have a drill that has lubrication, but not my mill. heh.
[16:32:05] <XXCoder> "PH20's unique head touches' allow measurement points to be taken by moving only the head, rather than the CMM structure"
[16:34:16] <archivist> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUgWBlEewyk
[16:34:48] <zeeshan> i got a flood coolanbt pump
[16:34:51] <zeeshan> but itll make a mess
[16:35:23] <XXCoder> can limit current?
[16:35:28] <XXCoder> er flow
[16:35:37] <zeeshan> yea but you need lots of flow
[16:35:41] <zeeshan> to do chip clearing
[16:36:25] <XXCoder> hmm oh well
[16:36:29] <furrywolf> I don't think I can run an air compressor and the mill at once...
[16:36:38] <furrywolf> unless I bring it back here
[16:36:59] <Sync_> I don't like those spray things
[16:37:22] <Sync_> they produce a lot of unneccessary aerosol
[16:37:28] <furrywolf> I like the magnetic base. that goes well with my level of caring. :)
[16:37:46] <zeeshan> sync thats because of their inherent design
[16:37:47] <furrywolf> Sync_: that's a feature - nothing near it will rust. :P
[16:37:51] <zeeshan> you can easily fix it
[16:38:24] <furrywolf> it's just like cars that leak oil... it's a feature - prevents floorpan rust! :P
[16:38:28] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wUoPdK_ms
[16:38:31] <zeeshan> check that out sync
[16:38:37] <zeeshan> haha
[16:38:44] <zeeshan> https://youtu.be/G3wUoPdK_ms?t=565
[16:39:01] <zeeshan> he talks about it and shows what to do to fix it
[16:39:32] <XXCoder> lol
[16:39:50] <furrywolf> could always spray air and cutting fluid separately. especially if you use appropriate m-codes to only turn coolant on during the downward tapping movement.
[16:41:55] <furrywolf> or jerryrig an oil can so the download spindle movement presses the handle. :P
[16:42:21] <Sync_> zeeshan: yeah there also is the fogbuster, but eh
[16:42:24] <Sync_> floodcoolant for me it is
[16:42:30] <zeeshan> fogbuster is a lot of $
[16:42:41] <furrywolf> my machine isn't enclosed, so I don't plan on flood coolant, ever.
[16:42:47] <zeeshan> flood coolant makes sense for an enclosed machine
[16:43:09] <zeeshan> even then, ive learned in class that flood coolant is no where as good as mist coolant
[16:43:16] <zeeshan> performance wise
[16:43:41] <furrywolf> and where I'm putting my electronics, if the machine sits in more than 3/8" of fluid, there goes the stepper drives. :P
[16:44:12] <Sync_> 330 bux zeeshan, I'd call that pretty cheap for what you are getting
[16:44:15] <zeeshan> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890695504001683
[16:44:17] <Sync_> it all depends on application
[16:44:18] <zeeshan> here's a typical paper
[16:44:24] <zeeshan> you see on flood coolant vs mist coolant vs dry
[16:44:27] <furrywolf> oh, and, by the design of the machine, the lathe motor would be shot by then too, since it sits flush with the base of the machine also...
[16:44:35] <zeeshan> and almost all the papers show flood coolant is more action than performance
[16:44:43] <Rab> zeeshan, why is that? Faster evaporative cooling with mist?
[16:44:50] <Sync_> high pressure flood usually is the easiest especially because you get free chip clearing
[16:45:04] <zeeshan> rab one defect is when you flood cooalnt, you form micro vapor bubbles
[16:45:09] <zeeshan> and what does vapor do?
[16:45:12] <zeeshan> impede heat transfer
[16:45:27] <Rab> hmm
[16:45:32] <zeeshan> so you're flooding this massive stream of coolant at 500psi
[16:45:45] <zeeshan> and you have this layer of bubbles forming on top of the tool - coolant interface
[16:46:33] <furrywolf> hrmm, according to the video you pasted, the nozzle thing needs pressurized coolant... fuck that. I figured it had a venturi from the design.
[16:46:38] <zeeshan> haha i just realized
[16:46:46] <zeeshan> that e-g ng is my prof!
[16:46:58] * zeeshan did a random search on google scholar
[16:47:22] <Sync_> the materials institute here did some similar stuff
[16:47:26] <zeeshan> furrywolf: it is venturi
[16:47:38] <zeeshan> but you wanna pressurize the COOLANT tank
[16:47:48] <furrywolf> no, I don't wanna. lol
[16:47:52] <zeeshan> so there isn't a pressure differential between the two
[16:48:06] <furrywolf> I want it to use a venturi to create suction to suck the coolant out of the tank.
[16:48:11] <zeeshan> its the pressure difference which i think causes more atomizing
[16:48:30] <XXCoder> there is another way to "pressurize". we has been using that method for water for long time, hundreds of years
[16:48:32] <Sync_> they came to the conclusion that high pressure flood was the best for the production stuff VW did
[16:48:39] <Sync_> around 1000psi tho
[16:48:43] <XXCoder> gravity
[16:48:46] <zeeshan> Sync_: would love to see a paper on that
[16:49:12] <XXCoder> though I wonder how high tank would have to be in order to make venturi work well.
[16:49:14] <Sync_> there is no paper, all seekrut 3rd party research
[16:49:25] <zeeshan> okay cant be trusted then :P
[16:49:26] <XXCoder> probably violates airspace LOL
[16:49:31] <furrywolf> Sync_: just mount a pressure washer next to your mill. :P
[16:50:01] <Sync_> or get a mill with high pressure coolant
[16:50:34] <furrywolf> pressure washers are $20 at yard sales...
[16:50:52] <XXCoder> pressure washer would work with coolant?
[16:51:16] <furrywolf> XXCoder: probably
[16:51:18] <furrywolf> they work with soap...
[16:52:13] <Sync_> zeeshan: as if any paper could be trusted
[16:52:27] <zeeshan> you cant deny lab proof :P
[16:52:36] <zeeshan> "here are the results, intrepret it"
[16:52:49] <zeeshan> i can see why some companies would want to endorse flood coolant
[16:52:52] <zeeshan> cause its $$$$
[16:53:13] <furrywolf> so does that coolant nozzle thing actually have two coaxial lines, with no mixing of air and coolant anywhere
[16:53:17] <furrywolf> ?
[16:53:23] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[16:53:36] <furrywolf> so then it doesn't have a venturi stuffed in the base. lol
[16:53:45] <zeeshan> it has a port between the two
[16:53:53] <zeeshan> which pulls on the coolant
[16:54:11] <zeeshan> i dunno
[16:54:15] <zeeshan> its been a while since i looked at it :P
[16:54:34] * furrywolf wonders how well a syrup pump would work
[16:55:38] <Sync_> zeeshan: you know how papers are written
[16:56:07] <XXCoder> millions of monkeys?
[16:56:20] <zeeshan> Sync_: yes i do
[16:56:39] <furrywolf> does it involve magic?
[16:56:48] <zeeshan> its a pretty lengthy process :/
[16:57:00] <furrywolf> after all, it doesn't take any work at all to produce a paper or a thesis, right? :P
[16:57:24] <zeeshan> furrywolf: ive only been doing the same thing for 8 months
[16:57:25] <zeeshan> !!
[16:57:26] <Sync_> that depends, if you want to be quick you have to be creative
[16:57:39] <XXCoder> aka cheat
[16:57:55] <Sync_> ^
[16:58:01] <zeeshan> i just found out the other day
[16:58:21] <zeeshan> if you use a load cell that is outside of 1% of the range youre measuring
[16:58:26] <zeeshan> your paper gets rejected
[16:58:32] <zeeshan> its good enough for thesis, but not publishing
[16:58:38] <andypugh> Eh?
[16:58:43] <zeeshan> andypugh: yea!
[16:58:48] <zeeshan> thats what the supervisor told me
[16:58:51] <Sync_> haha
[16:58:52] <Rab> monkeyisl, sup
[16:58:58] <Sync_> he's wrong then
[16:59:07] <andypugh> You mean to measure 10N you should use a 1kN cell?
[16:59:15] <Sync_> there are a lot of papers with wrong measurements
[16:59:18] <furrywolf> you just need to know what your error bars are at the pressure you're measuring.
[16:59:25] <furrywolf> force, strain, whatever you're measuring
[16:59:35] <Sync_> or just don't provide errors
[16:59:42] <zeeshan> andypugh: if youre measuring 1-9N with a 1kN load cell, its considered garbage
[16:59:44] <furrywolf> Sync_: no, THAT gets you rejected. :P
[16:59:46] <Sync_> because you are confident™ that it is right
[16:59:59] <Sync_> depends on your publisher :D
[17:00:24] <furrywolf> you're right, vanity publishers will publish anything you pay them to publish. :P
[17:00:37] <Sync_> so, all publishers :D
[17:00:41] <andypugh> zeeshan: Ah, that way round. Yeah, I wouldn’t pay any attention to a 5N reading from a 5000N loadcell myself.
[17:00:56] <zeeshan> i think you're confusing book publishers
[17:01:01] <zeeshan> with journal publishers
[17:01:06] <zeeshan> there is a big difference
[17:01:22] <XXCoder> im sure the regular book publishers dont care
[17:01:25] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: no, there's vanity journal publishers too. you can publish in the journal of whatever-you'll-pay-us-to-print too.
[17:01:31] <XXCoder> look at all those bullshit health stuff books
[17:01:43] <XXCoder> like homoapathy
[17:01:44] <furrywolf> of course, no one else cares much about non-peer-reviewed journals.
[17:02:18] <Sync_> it really depends, I have seen a lot of trolls in peer reviewed journals
[17:02:40] <zeeshan> andypugh: did you see my latest data?
[17:02:41] <Sync_> as everybody is measuring themselves on how many papers they published it all goes to shit
[17:02:54] <zeeshan> ive been going in circles
[17:03:41] <furrywolf> if your data looks like a circle, your material isn't doing much shape memorizing. :P
[17:03:46] <zeeshan> hahah
[17:04:20] <Sync_> I mean, a doc here got his last draft published instead of the final version
[17:04:21] <andypugh> zeeshan: No, sorry. I have been racing (and losing very badly to) Aston Martins and Veyrons on mountain road for the last two weeks. Sometimes my job sucks :-)
[17:04:32] <Sync_> nobody noticed that a section was mussing
[17:04:42] <zeeshan> lol
[17:04:50] <Sync_> ~missing even
[17:05:31] <furrywolf> andypugh: I'll race you in my subaru, as long as we're not required to stick to the road. :P
[17:05:47] <andypugh> I _think_ I have proven that a 1.5 litre diesel people-carrier is slower than a Veyron at altitude, but I think I probably need more data.
[17:05:54] <zeeshan> rofl
[17:06:03] <furrywolf> lol
[17:06:28] <andypugh> furrywolf: In that case, can I use my GasGas?
[17:06:35] <furrywolf> a veyron is nice and quick on road, but I bet it gets stuck about 3ft from pavement. :P
[17:07:22] <furrywolf> lol
[17:08:33] <furrywolf> what, exactly, is the point of racing an economy diesel against a sportscar? that's like your measuring 5N with the 5000N loadcell...
[17:09:35] <andypugh> Well, actually I was monitoring the performance of a variable displacement oil pump controller at altitude and with hot oil. And the only way to get the oil hot is….
[17:09:59] <furrywolf> ah, so it wasn't actually a race.
[17:10:07] <furrywolf> that is, the outcome of the race wasn't what you were measuring.
[17:10:14] <andypugh> No, this was on public roads, for a start
[17:10:44] <furrywolf> also, variable displacement oil pump controller? for fuel oil or for lubricating oil? and if for lubricating oil, what's wrong with a good ol' bypass valve? heh
[17:10:45] <DaViruz> andypugh: oil pump as in engine lubrication oil pump?
[17:12:06] <furrywolf> or does it have some shiny hydrostatic drivetrain? :)
[17:12:11] <andypugh> But I would guess that more than 50% of the traffic was test vehicles from various manufacturers. Trucks from MAN and Mercedes, Vans, Coaches, the new Renault Alpine, the new Astom Martin, the BMW i8, A Smart car wth the badges covered in tape (Why?) and a number of humdrum Fords.
[17:12:13] <CaptHindsight> <--- really hopes that it's a James Bond type oil spreader
[17:12:40] <andypugh> A bypass valve eats a HP or so at high engine speed.
[17:13:18] <furrywolf> that just means your bearings haven't worn in yet. :)
[17:14:07] <furrywolf> once it's got enough miles on it, the bypass won't be used when the oil is hot!
[17:14:12] <andypugh> There are variable-speed electric oil pumps available. Not a bad plan at all, but you would want to make sure the fuse didn’t blow.
[17:14:43] <Sync_> yeah, I sense reliability issues
[17:14:48] <furrywolf> put the fuel pump on the oil pressure switch, like ford did.
[17:14:55] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am not comfortable discussing the details, but you can probably find out the details on the web.
[17:15:23] <DaViruz> i'm not comfortable hearing about the details.. :)
[17:16:20] <furrywolf> heh, a friend got a free f-350 that way... the oil filter backed off, then the fuel pump shut off... people didn't spend too much work troubleshooting it, and just conluded no oil + stopped running = dead engine. my friend screwed the oil filter back down tight, added another gallon of oil, and drove it home.
[17:16:44] <furrywolf> concluded
[17:17:02] <PetefromTn_> ^^ all of this above here......is BULLSHIT^^^ ;)
[17:17:36] <furrywolf> andypugh: I'm always perfectly happy to discuss details, but people complain if I do. :P
[17:22:32] <Sync_> is it really worth that trouble? apparently it is but especially an electric oilpump seems to be eh, interesting
[17:22:45] <Sync_> but electric coolant pumps also seem to be the rage
[17:24:04] <furrywolf> I like simple and reliable setups.
[17:24:35] <furrywolf> BMW, for example, used an aux electric coolant pump so your could run the heater with the engine off. Exactly zero of them still work. Of course, the same can be said for most BMW parts.
[17:25:01] <Sync_> they now run a full electric deal
[17:25:28] <Sync_> I wonder if it makes sense in if you view the complete energy invested into a car like that
[17:25:52] <furrywolf> unlikely. :)
[17:25:59] <Sync_> or rather when does a car break even with the fuel it saves vs increased manufacturing complexity/energy invested
[17:26:47] <furrywolf> I remember some study a while back concluded the jeep wrangler was the most environmentally-friendly vehicle made, because it was simple to make and lasted a long time, preventing the making of new vehicles, even though it used a bit more fuel.
[17:27:25] <zeeshan> electric coolant pumps make me upset
[17:27:30] <zeeshan> they don't last!!!!!!!!!
[17:27:41] <Tom_itx> what fails?
[17:27:42] <zeeshan> but they do have the sweet benefit of circulating coolant while the car is off, which helps at the track
[17:27:51] <Tom_itx> the pump or the motor?
[17:27:57] <zeeshan> both
[17:28:18] <furrywolf> also, I question the overall efficiency savings... rotation -> electric -> electronics -> rotation is a lot of extra steps, and automotive alternators have pretty crap efficiency.
[17:28:49] <Rab> Sorta feel the same way about electric fans vs mechanical clutch fans.
[17:29:16] <zeeshan> the electric motors on the ewaterpumps is rated for 3000 hours
[17:29:21] <Sync_> never had an efan fail
[17:29:40] <furrywolf> build a magdrive pump. :)
[17:29:40] <Rab> Although there are some notable advantages to electric (fine duty cycle control, runs with engine off, doesn't wear out water pump bearing).
[17:29:41] <zeeshan> so 50 days :P
[17:29:47] <Sync_> furrywolf: also the shitty 12V electrics
[17:30:05] <furrywolf> a good electronic magdrive pump probably lasts plenty long... but costs a lot.
[17:30:15] <Rab> I have seen a few electric fans fail. But clutches and water pump bearings also.
[17:30:29] <Sync_> fucking BMW visco fans
[17:30:32] <Sync_> POS.
[17:31:07] <furrywolf> I've seen everything fail. BMWs are special, because everything fails on every vehicle. :P
[17:31:15] <zeeshan> hi andypugh
[17:31:16] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bVZC9II.png
[17:31:47] <zeeshan> damn uniaxial results dont line up
[17:31:48] <furrywolf> that looks like data.
[17:32:19] <furrywolf> so your non-shape-memory polymer is slightly anisotropic as well?
[17:32:25] <zeeshan> no this is 9000j
[17:32:38] <zeeshan> polypropylene - polyethylene copolymer
[17:32:47] <zeeshan> trying to test a non smp material first
[17:32:52] <furrywolf> isn't that what I said?
[17:32:53] <zeeshan> our smp material is very non-homogenous
[17:33:01] <zeeshan> whoops i didnt read 'non'
[17:33:06] <furrywolf> lol
[17:33:18] <zeeshan> yea its slightly anisotropic
[17:34:02] <Sync_> so far the few bmws I had were reliable
[17:34:24] <Tom_itx> just don't have a flat
[17:34:28] <furrywolf> Sync_: did you keep them very long?
[17:34:54] <Tom_itx> all the ppl i know with em have nothing but problems
[17:34:57] <Sync_> long enough to have failures usually
[17:35:00] <furrywolf> hell, you don't even need to keep them very long... the water-cooled alternators seem good for about 40-60K miles, and cost $900 to replace!
[17:35:12] <zeeshan> there are waterr cooled alternators?
[17:35:16] <Sync_> sure
[17:35:20] <Sync_> a lot of the mare
[17:35:24] <zeeshan> fak i want one
[17:35:27] <furrywolf> zeeshan: BMW uses them. I have absolutely no idea why.
[17:35:28] <zeeshan> mine is right next to the turbine housing
[17:35:29] <XXCoder> never heard of water cooled alternator
[17:35:30] <Sync_> because dem florida heat and all the shit running
[17:35:47] <XXCoder> dont need one here in washington, only summers is hot
[17:35:47] <Sync_> XXCoder: put a 250A alternator into the standard size
[17:35:47] <furrywolf> I do know they're stupidly short-lived.
[17:35:54] <Sync_> you will need watercooling
[17:35:54] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/5S0KMqE.jpg
[17:36:00] <zeeshan> look at how close my wastegate is to the alternator
[17:36:08] <Sync_> pro fitment
[17:36:14] <XXCoder> why need such massive amp alt though?
[17:36:24] <Sync_> all your electric accessories
[17:36:32] <XXCoder> ah like boomboxes and such
[17:36:34] <Sync_> no
[17:36:37] <XXCoder> never need much power lol
[17:36:47] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/GufASr0.jpg
[17:36:54] <Sync_> massage seats, electric windows, media center whatever
[17:36:57] <zeeshan> you can see the alternator peaking in this pic
[17:36:58] <Sync_> needs powah
[17:37:00] <zeeshan> bottom right
[17:37:03] <furrywolf> I have a dual-output 150A alternator in my pickup... mostly from when I had a camper shell on the back and wanted to charge the house batteries quickly. also works great for making the winches work.
[17:37:08] <XXCoder> Sync_: my old car had all that
[17:37:10] <zeeshan> i could use a water cooled alternator!
[17:37:25] <XXCoder> plus more. it was really high end "standard looking car but fancy inside" car
[17:37:40] <furrywolf> zeeshan: they're much more money and much less reliable.
[17:37:45] <XXCoder> it had electric goodamn everything that existed in 80s
[17:37:52] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-A-Class-A160-A170-Vaneo-1-7-Diesel-Water-Cooled-Alternator-/181418645104
[17:37:54] <zeeshan> about 300 bux
[17:37:59] <zeeshan> comparable to a new alternator
[17:38:06] <XXCoder> but it had large but not water cooled alternator
[17:38:09] <furrywolf> I got a new alternator for my truck, but haven't put it in yet... it's only 90A, but it'll make it at lower rpm, which is better.
[17:38:25] <Sync_> you could do with a better wastegate placement zeeshan .P
[17:38:33] <zeeshan> Sync_: feel free to come by
[17:38:35] <zeeshan> and put it in a better spot
[17:38:41] <zeeshan> i can give you $1000 if you can
[17:38:49] <furrywolf> it's a brushless marine alternator, extra-large-case... I think the mounting wings are on 9" centers if I remember right. a much better match for my truck.
[17:38:50] <XXCoder> oh yeah
[17:39:06] <zeeshan> furrywolf: 90A!
[17:39:07] <zeeshan> pfft
[17:39:08] <XXCoder> zeeshan: did you find slimmer cooler? it seems so as I see it installed
[17:39:20] <XXCoder> radator
[17:39:26] <zeeshan> no its actually fatter
[17:39:38] <XXCoder> so you had to redesign some stuff?
[17:39:45] <zeeshan> nope
[17:39:49] <zeeshan> just played with the turbo placement
[17:40:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan: it's an extremely heavy duty alternator, and will put out that 90A for roughly forever even immersed in saltwater. :P
[17:40:12] <furrywolf> it weighs about four times what my 150A alternator does. :)
[17:40:13] <XXCoder> well placement IS design lol
[17:40:14] <zeeshan> furrywolf: my rad fans draw 50A
[17:40:19] <zeeshan> t!
[17:40:26] <furrywolf> my rad fan is bolted to the front of the water pump. :P
[17:40:40] <zeeshan> clutch type
[17:40:41] <zeeshan> haha
[17:40:46] <zeeshan> that is old school my friend
[17:40:49] <furrywolf> no.
[17:41:03] <furrywolf> it doesn't have a clutch. :P
[17:41:07] <zeeshan> haha
[17:41:30] <furrywolf> the engine needs about 1A to operate. :)
[17:41:36] <furrywolf> and that's for the ignition
[17:41:55] <furrywolf> other than that, lights, heater, and radio.
[17:42:05] <andypugh> We have 250A air-cooled alternators and they work fine.
[17:42:25] <furrywolf> yeah, I almost bought a 250A alternator once... was out of a firetruck.
[17:42:39] <furrywolf> or maybe it was an ambulance. don't remember.
[17:42:55] <andypugh> The main reason for the current is heaters. These modern diesels don’t make much heat. 1kW of electric windscreen + 2kW of secondary cabin heater requires a lot of current at 12V
[17:43:38] <furrywolf> I'm surprised it doesn't take a lot more than 2kw...
[17:44:03] <Sync_> I think it is only to generate heat on cold starts so that the cabin heats more quickly
[17:44:15] <Sync_> MB did that in the 80s
[17:44:21] <Sync_> the 1.6 nearly stalled when it kicked in
[17:44:25] * furrywolf owns a jacket
[17:44:32] <zeeshan> andypugh: comment on my results :{
[17:45:06] <furrywolf> it is unlikely to be sufficiently colder inside the car than outside of it. thus, if you can get to the car, you have clothes suitable for the temperature inside the car.
[17:45:17] <Sync_> but driving with them is shit
[17:45:27] <Sync_> from a comfort view and from a safety view
[17:45:41] <andypugh> And you can’t work the touchscreen with gloves on
[17:46:16] <andypugh> zeeshan: I don’t know what to say aboutyour results. They look nicely repeatable sample-to-sample
[17:46:31] <furrywolf> I will never own a vehicle with a touchscreen. They are, by far, the worse, stupidest, least-safe idea ever. Well, maybe being able to play moves on a heads-up display, or having an beer tap built into the steering column...
[17:46:33] <zeeshan> i dont understand why biaxial differs from uniaxial
[17:46:35] <zeeshan> :/
[17:47:37] <furrywolf> a touchscreen requires you to divert your eyes from the road to use it - even more so if it's capable of displaying things that have different buttons. mechanical switches do not have this problem.
[17:48:21] <furrywolf> looking down and reading while driving is not acceptable.
[17:48:45] <furrywolf> if we're lucky, touchscreens accessible while driving will be banned.
[17:49:03] <furrywolf> just like playing movies while driving or texting while driving
[17:49:55] <furrywolf> I don't know about the laws in every state, but here, any movie screen visible to the driver must be deactivated unless the car is parked.
[17:50:31] <Sync_> andypugh: are they really having such heat issues?
[17:50:47] <andypugh> Yes
[17:50:51] <furrywolf> even aftermarket radios need to be wired into a park signal, such as the e-brake or transmission range...
[17:51:17] <Sync_> interesting
[17:52:52] <andypugh> Sync_: You can leave a car at 100C idling at -20C for 20 minutes and come back to find the coolant at 20C. That’s with no radiator flow, just heat loss from the block.
[17:53:10] <Sync_> I have the same issue with my old dsm
[17:53:22] <Sync_> it will cool when idle
[17:53:31] <andypugh> In gentle town driving at -30 the coolant never gets over 40C
[17:53:39] <Sync_> hmm
[17:54:34] <andypugh> zeeshan: Is it possible that the strain calcuations for biaxial are different? Halve the strain and the lines line up (somewhat)
[17:54:43] <furrywolf> andypugh: a thermostatically controlled air vent system that seals off the underhood area until the engine is warmed up. could be implemented with a vacuum actuator and a thermovalve. :)
[17:54:55] <andypugh> We already have that
[17:55:06] <Sync_> there already are inlet flaps
[17:55:18] <Sync_> dem aero improvement too
[17:55:30] <andypugh> But it has to be left open below freezing in case it freezes shut
[17:55:35] <zeeshan> andypugh: in both these cases im getting actual strain using a camera measurement system (so getting true strain) , only thing i am calculating is stress
[17:55:38] <zeeshan> stress = pr / 2t for biaxial
[17:55:50] <furrywolf> heh, run a heater line around it. :)
[17:55:56] <furrywolf> (engine coolant)
[17:55:59] <Sync_> no
[17:56:13] <zeeshan> p,t,r are a function of time, so this is indeed true stress
[17:56:53] <zeeshan> for uniaxial, i do true stress = (load/area) *e^truestrain
[17:56:58] <zeeshan> er
[17:57:06] <zeeshan> yea thats what i do..
[17:57:27] <zeeshan> i wonder if stress isn't pr / 2t for some reason for biaxial
[17:58:32] <andypugh> zeeshan: I can’t recall what the equations are, and I never actually did biaxial. But I would be looking hard at the means of calculating strain in both cases, and also checking whether you would _expect_ to see what you see
[17:58:35] <Sync_> andypugh: hm, I have not read through the directive, isn't it possible to force high idle in cold weather
[17:58:41] <Sync_> efficiency is going to suck for those, but eh
[17:58:59] <andypugh> We already do that, it doesn’t make enough difference
[17:59:19] <andypugh> (Idling at 3000 rpm is probably an NVH fail)
[17:59:44] <furrywolf> zeeshan: could your clamps be causing uneven forces that are distorting the material some way your model doesn't compensate for?
[18:00:06] <furrywolf> is this gas or diesel?
[18:00:30] <furrywolf> if it has a cat, dump some extra fuel into it and put a heat exchanger after it. :)
[18:00:42] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i think i'd see the failure happen away from the pole in that case
[18:01:07] <furrywolf> I thought your failures were happening away from the pole?
[18:01:11] <zeeshan> not anymore
[18:01:17] <zeeshan> after this
http://i.imgur.com/8vg1nJc.jpg
[18:01:24] <zeeshan> everything started working right
[18:01:56] <furrywolf> so even the 0.5psi/minute or whatever was causing enough local stress to pop it?
[18:02:32] <zeeshan> i think it was uneven distribution of pressure
[18:03:41] <JT-Shop> I hate it when people assume you want to be their free handy man
[18:03:55] <furrywolf> JT-Shop: want to fix my leaky plumbing?
[18:04:09] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: just say it'll cost this much
[18:04:13] <zeeshan> itll stop the free nonsense right away
[18:04:16] <JT-Shop> sure I'll add it to the list
[18:04:57] <JT-Shop> Exofficio seems to have reasonable shipping rates
[18:05:01] <Sync_> oh true, I completely forget about NVH
[18:05:13] <Sync_> I would be a shitty consumer car engineer
[18:05:31] <JT-Shop> my friend's son owns the house but is too lazy to do anything...
[18:05:43] <JT-Shop> not my yob mon
[18:07:19] <Sync_> andypugh: another innovative idea, let the hydroblock drag the brake so the engine load increases, with the conti mk100 that should be easy to do smoothly
[18:08:10] <furrywolf> won't help sitting idling...
[18:09:07] <Sync_> load the alternator... or just have an electric by heater
[18:09:16] <furrywolf> I haven't seen an exhaust heat exchanger heater in a while, but now that everything has cats, it'd be a good way to make extra heat on demand.
[18:10:02] <andypugh> In theory an auto-gearbox and electric brake could be made to fight against each other, I suppose. But if the driving wheels and braked wheels are not the same, and if, say, you are in a place where ice is likely, the car might not stay where you put it.
[18:10:19] <furrywolf> and it might not have an auto.
[18:10:33] <andypugh> furrywolf: Peugeout have exhaust heat exchangers, but engineering them is surprisingly hard
[18:10:48] <furrywolf> if it had an auto, you wouldn't even need to use the brakes, just add some transbrake logic that drags a couple clutches at once...
[18:10:59] <zeeshan> i wish i had a car that was ice cold at idle.
[18:11:00] <zeeshan> :/
[18:11:13] <furrywolf> zeeshan: ice cold motors are inefficient.
[18:11:22] <zeeshan> dont take it literally :P
[18:11:33] <zeeshan> 180F or so
[18:11:37] <furrywolf> also, on a lot of vehicles, if you remove the thermostat, it'll be pretty close to ice cold at idle.
[18:11:38] <zeeshan> my shit idles at 200
[18:11:54] <furrywolf> and in cold whether, all the time!
[18:11:55] <malcom2073> My camaro idles at 220
[18:11:59] <zeeshan> malcom2073: ls1?
[18:12:04] <malcom2073> zeeshan: Gen1 SBC
[18:12:07] <zeeshan> lt
[18:12:08] <furrywolf> malcom2073: it probably has a thermostat. :)
[18:12:08] <zeeshan> er
[18:12:09] <zeeshan> sbc
[18:12:12] <malcom2073> yeah sbc
[18:12:17] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Yeppers
[18:12:54] <furrywolf> andypugh: hrmm, I'd figure it'd just be some finned stainless tubes or something... or corrugated flat plates.
[18:13:53] <furrywolf> corrugated plate exchangers shouldn't be too hard to build
[18:13:58] <andypugh> Lots of wet corrosive goop in exausts when cold
[18:14:46] <andypugh> And then you have to run extra coolant pipes to the exhauts, and control flow through it, etc.
[18:15:07] <zeeshan> i know the solution
[18:15:10] <malcom2073> I have a generator which uses the exhaust to heat up the coolant to warm it up, and also uses the coolant to keep the exhaust manifold cool once it's hot
[18:15:12] <andypugh> I am not saying it can’t be done. I am saying it costs more than the $15 that Ford would pay.
[18:15:13] <zeeshan> you guys are silly, it has been in front of us all along.
[18:15:37] <zeeshan> cut your exhaust manifold off
[18:15:38] <Sync_> well for ice I already have the esc
[18:15:40] <malcom2073> Just pipe the exhaust right into the car!
[18:15:41] <malcom2073> instant heat!
[18:15:45] <zeeshan> LOL
[18:15:46] <zeeshan> there you go!
[18:15:55] <Sync_> malcom2073: bmw basically does that
[18:16:03] <Sync_> gearbox tunnel gets so hot
[18:16:15] <zeeshan> you guys wont believ eme
[18:16:25] <zeeshan> but my rx7 doesn't even have a heat exchanger inside the car anymore
[18:16:37] <zeeshan> the tunnel heat is hot enough to keep me warm during 10C days
[18:16:44] <zeeshan> (any below, the car gets parked anyway)
[18:16:46] <furrywolf> heh
[18:16:47] <malcom2073> My old Nova was like that
[18:16:53] <malcom2073> exhaust pipes went along the tunnel
[18:16:55] <malcom2073> so it got really hot
[18:16:56] <zeeshan> yea dude
[18:17:12] <zeeshan> also if you have a small hole in the gear shifter area
[18:17:15] <zeeshan> and you put your windows down
[18:17:19] <furrywolf> my car's heater core isn't hooked up... it's pretty plugged, and when I did the engine swap, I didn't connect any hoses to it, for fear of crap coming unplugged and ending up in my shiny new radiator.
[18:17:22] <zeeshan> you suck heat from the tunnel into the car
[18:17:24] <malcom2073> Car had no weather stripping though, so it was only warm when not moving :-D
[18:17:36] <zeeshan> mines only warm when moving
[18:17:37] <zeeshan> haha
[18:17:53] <zeeshan> makes you speed :-)
[18:18:00] <furrywolf> my truck gets pretty cold in cold weather, even with the heater. canvas top and no weatherstripping = a bit drafty.
[18:18:17] <furrywolf> "but officer, I was only trying to keep from freezing!"
[18:18:55] <furrywolf> my truck didn't have a heater stock... if you were cold, put on more layers. :P
[18:20:04] <furrywolf> I was planning on a winter trip, and retrofitted a '80s ford truck heater into it, care of some soldering-iron-basic plastic welding.
[18:20:07] <furrywolf> -based
[18:21:09] <just_pink> http://9gag.com/gag/avL7NBb
[18:21:53] <zeeshan> most of my friends are like the woman.
[18:21:58] <zeeshan> (mech eng)
[18:22:00] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: that's nice and sexist.
[18:22:02] <furrywolf> just_pink:
[18:23:01] <Sync_> andypugh: do you happen to know paul veal?
[18:24:44] <malcom2073> Heh, XKCD did a post about the color differences, they should do the same about fasteners
[18:25:04] <XXCoder> isnt just_pink lady too
[18:25:34] <furrywolf> maybe I'm just a redneck, but I consider most of the "features" of new vehicles to be anything but.
[18:26:02] <malcom2073> Most "features" of new vehicles I had years ago via carpc heh
[18:27:42] <furrywolf> malcom2073: your carpc probably didn't fuck with the brakes for you, fuck with the throttle for you, encourage you to not pay attention to the road thinking the car will do it for you, etc.
[18:28:04] <malcom2073> Well no, but that's humanity: Letting the weak survive much to darwins chagrin for millenia!
[18:28:19] <just_pink> XXCoder: yes I'm a woman, but it just funy because I know all of them (and many more)
[18:28:26] <SpeedEvil> The safety features are wholly positive. If you are using them for 10 minutes while you know you may be distracted, and are doing it manually most of the time.
[18:28:53] <SpeedEvil> If you're using them all the time, humans adapt, and will assume they will work all the time, and not be prepared to rapidly take over if they don't.
[18:29:22] <SpeedEvil> Self-driving cars will only make sense when they can deal with a driver that is actually asleep and won't wake up
[18:29:34] <Sync_> I disagree
[18:29:36] <furrywolf> and, as I said before, touchscreens need to stop existing, along with digital dashboards. (at least those that display anything numerically instead of linearly)
[18:29:39] <Sync_> ADAS are a bad thing
[18:29:46] <justanotheruser> furrywolf: what?
[18:30:07] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: I typed just: and got justanotheruser: when I meant just_pink:. sorry about that.
[18:30:09] <SpeedEvil> There is a massive trend in aero accidents towards 'the automation usually works' types of accident
[18:30:20] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am actually of the opinion that digital speedos are better.
[18:30:48] <SpeedEvil> I can glance at a digital speedo faster than analog
[18:31:14] <SpeedEvil> the key is to glance, and not decode it before you look back to the road, but to do the decode while your eye is moving back to the road
[18:31:22] <andypugh> With a traditional gauge you need to work out where the current speed limit is on the gauge, then compare the needle position to that. With a digital speedo you just glance down, read the number, look back at the road then work out what that number means.
[18:31:31] <furrywolf> andypugh: how's that? you have to divert your vision and actually read them, rather than a linear scale you can see with your peripheral vision.
[18:31:59] <furrywolf> if you've driven the same car for more than a week, you don't need to work out where anything is. heh.
[18:32:05] <andypugh> furrywolf: Tach, yes. But the “target” on a speedo changes with the speed limit
[18:32:17] <furrywolf> and who actually looks at the speed limit? lol
[18:32:30] <furrywolf> unless you have a cop tailing you, that is.
[18:32:47] <andypugh> Well, in that case it doesn’t matter of the gauge is on the back seat
[18:33:03] <furrywolf> unless you see a black and white carefully hanging a half mile behind you, in which case you then go exactly 2mph below the speed limit...
[18:33:30] <Sync_> I can usually manage to get the speed right enough by just glancing
[18:33:34] <Sync_> head up would be nice
[18:33:43] <Sync_> although in cars that had it I found it annoying
[18:34:29] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: also, for some reason I thought you didn't even have a driver's license. lol
[18:34:50] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I don't.
[18:35:05] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: That doesn't mean I haven't been (legally) driving in the past.
[18:35:06] <furrywolf> closest I've used to a heads-up display was a prius that had a weird just-below-the-windshield display... god I hated that car.
[18:35:33] <furrywolf> that was, by far, the hardest to drive, least pleasant vehicle I've used.
[18:36:08] <furrywolf> the controls did different random things in response to the same force input, it had a touchscreen, it handled like crap,...
[18:36:36] <furrywolf> if you put 10lbs of force on the brake pedal, you should get the same amount of braking. not a completely random amount based on whether the engine is on or off, the state of charge of the batteries, etc.
[18:37:22] <malcom2073> Yeah I hate power brakes too </luddite>
[18:37:23] <malcom2073> :P
[18:38:17] <furrywolf> and even stupid little things that never should have been allowed out of the factory, like the shifter shifting the WRONG DIRECTION if you hit it too quickly. it had a stupid little push forwards/backwards thing for direction, but if you let it spring, it'd bounce all the way until it tripped the opposite direction's switch. very annoying to hit reverse, let off the brakes, and start going forwards.
[18:38:38] <furrywolf> malcom2073: normal power brakes are very consistent.
[18:38:59] <furrywolf> and don't depend on whether the computer thinks it wants regen braking at that moment and other random factors
[18:39:03] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Depends on the vehicle. I've driven ones as new as 2008 that are inconsistant depending on engine vaccume
[18:39:18] <Sync_> the fuck, what kind of shitty car was that
[18:39:44] <malcom2073> 2008 <make> <model>, etc etc
[18:39:56] <furrywolf> malcom2073: you should only be using the brakes while the engine is at idle, and it should have a very consistent vacuum. also, the brake booster should store enough vacuum for several full-force brake applications, regardless of whether the engine has any vacuum at all.
[18:40:06] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Unless you're driving an automatic of course
[18:40:29] <furrywolf> no, even on an automatic, you only should be using the brakes with the butterflies fully closed.
[18:40:29] <Sync_> what, why should I only use the brakes when it is at idle
[18:40:52] <malcom2073> I think you mean off throttle, not idle
[18:41:15] * furrywolf re-reads
[18:41:18] <furrywolf> yes, that's what I meant. lol
[18:41:24] <malcom2073> K, just checking :P Was confused
[18:41:53] <furrywolf> I've never driven a vehicle with conventional vacuum servo brakes that had any variation in braking force.
[18:41:57] <malcom2073> I do know what you mean though, we had a ford esape at work with pure electric brakes
[18:41:58] <Sync_> that's not really possible if you are driving fast
[18:42:03] <malcom2073> Very annoying when creeping along in traffic
[18:42:11] <malcom2073> you could FEEL the resolution of the brake pedal encoder
[18:42:21] <furrywolf> that's evil, and scary.
[18:42:38] * furrywolf doesn't think brakes should depend on any electrical systems for basic functionality
[18:42:50] <t12> check out my most absurd plant watering system
[18:42:52] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/i7yejw8w8zyoba7/AABv6TUncyH323RyRplz1RZma
[18:42:56] <furrywolf> if they loose boost, that's ok... but they shouldn't stop working entirely.
[18:43:33] <zeeshan> wat
[18:43:49] <furrywolf> lose
[18:44:01] <zeeshan> t12 that is bad ass!
[18:44:14] <t12> such a pain to hose up tho
[18:44:15] <zeeshan> do you have a garden?
[18:44:22] * furrywolf is still waiting for dropbox to load a bunch of bloat, and has no idea what it is yet
[18:44:33] <t12> if i worked at a garden i'd have one
[18:44:37] <t12> i have a patch of weeds and scrap metal
[18:44:40] <zeeshan> lol
[18:44:41] <Sync_> if your hydroblock valve controller fails you can end up without brakes at all :D
[18:45:02] <renesis> furrywolf: electrically boosted brakes is maybe better than vacuum boosted
[18:45:15] <furrywolf> Sync_: good thing only one of my vehicles has one, and I don't drive it on the freeway much. :P
[18:45:21] <renesis> lose engine, and vacuum boost is gone but the electrical system should still be up
[18:45:34] <zeeshan> wat
[18:45:45] <zeeshan> you need to see howstuffworks again
[18:45:47] <zeeshan> ;]
[18:45:49] <furrywolf> renesis: all properly functional vacuum booster systems store enough vacuum for several full-force brake applications.
[18:45:53] <zeeshan> ^
[18:46:01] <zeeshan> like 8 full depresses
[18:46:05] <renesis> right maybe two or three
[18:46:05] <zeeshan> on my car at least
[18:46:11] <furrywolf> zeeshan: nah, 2-3.
[18:46:13] <renesis> so downhill and some evasive shit
[18:46:14] <zeeshan> MY CAR
[18:46:18] <zeeshan> DO YOU HJAVE MY CAR?
[18:46:23] <zeeshan> thats what i thought!
[18:46:33] <furrywolf> yes. have you looked in your garage lately to prove I don't? :P
[18:46:40] <zeeshan> :D
[18:46:49] <zeeshan> that stupid brake booster
[18:46:53] <zeeshan> madfe my life a miserable hell
[18:46:56] <zeeshan> for routing a down pipe
[18:47:02] <zeeshan> bastards made it twice what it needed to be
[18:47:11] <zeeshan> (the whole reason i need an oval flange!)
[18:47:16] <renesis> so back to my point, theres no reason an electrical system would stop assisting for an engine failure
[18:47:25] <furrywolf> t12: I've seen watering systems like that before, but they had a very different variety of plant being watered.
[18:47:38] <furrywolf> renesis: so how about in case of an electrical failure? :P
[18:47:46] <t12> i kinda wonder if i could just use pneumatic valve arrays
[18:47:52] <zeeshan> so let me clarify this
[18:47:56] <renesis> prob about as likely as a vacuum failure
[18:48:08] <zeeshan> you're saying an electric motor will outlast a diaphragm?
[18:48:11] <zeeshan> LOL
[18:48:18] <furrywolf> the only time you use fancy metering pumps like that are when you're pumping nutrients that would clog ordinary drippers. otherwise you just use drippers.
[18:48:25] <furrywolf> and a single pump
[18:48:28] <andypugh> Diesel cars have vacuum brakes. That’s crazy, because diesel engines don’t have manifold vacuum
[18:48:35] <renesis> zeeshan: theres hoses
[18:48:43] <renesis> and vacuum assists do fail
[18:48:47] <furrywolf> andypugh: ford solved that with a little vacuum pump under the power steering pump with a belt from it. :)
[18:48:52] <andypugh> So you have a special little engine-driven vacuum pump just for the brakes.
[18:48:52] <renesis> and something with both systems would be safest
[18:48:52] <fenn> t12 what's the wifi for? you don't seem to have any sensors
[18:48:53] <zeeshan> dude i had a 240sx which was completely rusted
[18:49:00] <t12> theres an edison on it
[18:49:00] <zeeshan> and the brake booster still worked
[18:49:00] <furrywolf> or maybe it's under the alternator. been a whle since I changed one.
[18:49:03] <t12> control is via ssh heh
[18:49:03] <zeeshan> shit i even blow up the brake lines
[18:49:05] <furrywolf> I remember it has a little mini belt.
[18:49:09] <zeeshan> (which is when i junked the car)
[18:49:46] <zeeshan> andypugh: me and furry were discussing remote brake booster relocation a while back
[18:49:48] <renesis> and what is there to break in a linear motor
[18:49:49] <furrywolf> t12: so, now that you've taken the public pictures, you're swapping in a few trays of trainwreck clones? because that's the only time I ever see watering systems like that. :P
[18:49:50] <zeeshan> didnt find a good alternative
[18:50:02] <t12> hahah
[18:50:19] <t12> prolly would be nice for a fancy clone rig
[18:50:32] <Sync_> zeeshan: adapt an electric booster
[18:50:33] <andypugh> Well, the ABS pump seems to work OK when called upon, so why do you need a vacuum boost for non-ABS operation
[18:50:48] <t12> i think i just went over the top on this for entertainment
[18:51:14] <furrywolf> I don't care where boost comes from, as long as you have manual, non-boosted, mechanical braking if it fails.
[18:51:18] <t12> would like to swap the pump out for something quieter, syringe stepper is loud
[18:51:25] <t12> like an hplc pump or something
[18:51:28] <renesis> hydraulic brakes ftw
[18:51:45] <renesis> so having something truly redundant would be cool
[18:52:03] <renesis> directly actuate the brakes with voice coil style motors
[18:52:04] <Sync_> 4 caliper brake with 2 hydraulic circuits?
[18:52:15] <Sync_> that does not provide enough force
[18:52:23] <renesis> so you could eaily do parallel vacuum and electrical boost
[18:52:32] <Sync_> teves tried it with that wedge
[18:52:39] <renesis> and if your hydraulic system or electrical system failed, the other could still function
[18:52:39] <furrywolf> vacuum boosters are surprisingly reliable... in all the vehicles I've worked on, I've never seen a bad one. I have, however, seen several failed ABS valve blocks, and one failed electrical boost system.
[18:52:40] <Sync_> but that had reliability issues
[18:53:27] <renesis> the hoses fail
[18:53:39] <renesis> i know of at least one unit that failed
[18:53:48] <furrywolf> on the failed electrical one, the accumulator pod diaphragm failed, so it would only boost as fast as the electric pump could apply pressure.... which was pretty slowly.
[18:53:48] <renesis> so it cant be that rare
[18:54:05] <Sync_> only with bad maintainance
[18:54:12] <Sync_> sometimes the pipes burst
[18:54:12] <renesis> right im saying just actuate with a linear motor directly
[18:54:14] <Sync_> but that is rare
[18:54:23] <renesis> put a coil on the caliper
[18:54:29] <Sync_> that will not be packageable
[18:54:37] <Sync_> and does not develop enough force
[18:54:42] <renesis> and have electrical and hydraulic redundant systems
[18:54:47] <furrywolf> renesis: the standard dual hydraulic system is enough redundancy for most cases.
[18:54:51] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: It could. It wouldn't be light
[18:54:58] <zeeshan> why change something that works so well
[18:54:59] <zeeshan> is my q
[18:55:03] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: and would need some sort of gearing, ...
[18:55:04] <Sync_> so you get assloads of unsprung weight
[18:55:08] <fenn> you could do a 3-point lever like vise grip pliers
[18:55:27] <renesis> to eventually have electric brakes without hydraulics
[18:55:33] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: at that point, you might almost as well go with a wheelmotor and say screwit
[18:55:36] <zeeshan> F that.
[18:55:40] <zeeshan> i don't see any benefit in doing that
[18:55:41] <zeeshan> at all
[18:55:42] <furrywolf> Sync_: you could do it like trailer brakes, where the electrical actuation applies a clutch that uses the wheel's rotation to actually apply the brakes. but, as I said, I don't think it's needed. the standard dual hydraulic system seems to work well.
[18:55:47] <renesis> it wont be for another 10-20 years
[18:55:57] <Sync_> well
[18:55:58] <zeeshan> ill give you a $100
[18:56:05] <zeeshan> if i see hydraulics replaced with electric brakes
[18:56:06] <Sync_> as I said, the camming ones exist
[18:56:07] <zeeshan> lol
[18:56:18] <zeeshan> in 20 years!
[18:56:20] <renesis> when it happen $100 will be worth $.05
[18:56:21] <Sync_> no
[18:56:25] <Sync_> they are actually real zeeshan
[18:56:26] <zeeshan> hahaha
[18:56:32] <zeeshan> you got it right away :(
[18:56:32] <zeeshan> damn it
[18:56:39] <renesis> because the whole thing will be electronic
[18:57:01] <Sync_> interestingly it is a huge research area, because they react faster than hydraulics
[18:57:07] <zeeshan> i had drive by wire throttle boddy
[18:57:13] <zeeshan> chucked that nonsense out
[18:57:17] <zeeshan> biggest pos i've ever used
[18:57:18] <Sync_> if you have a high performance traction control it needs to move a lot of fluid
[18:57:26] <renesis> mass production drive by wire is really bad
[18:57:30] <furrywolf> speaking of excessive force.... I really, really hate miniature drum parking brakes inside of perfectly good disc brakes. sooo many extra things to fail for no reason whatsoever.
[18:57:55] <zeeshan> Sync_: if it's strictly for performan,ce i'd add an aux system
[18:58:01] <zeeshan> not replace the good ol reliable hyd brakes
[18:58:09] <furrywolf> as far as I can figure, the only possible reason they'd add all those extra parts is to reduce the force needed to apply the e-brake.
[18:58:23] <renesis> um if its performance, you check the hydraulic system because having two would be heavier
[18:58:28] <furrywolf> and yet, my subaru has the e-brake actuating the front disc calipers, with no problems at all.
[18:58:32] <renesis> *chuck
[18:59:08] <renesis> but the latency and resolution of mass production auto controls are just silly
[18:59:49] <furrywolf> I don't see any reason for drive-by-wire throttles on any non-hybrid gasoline vehicle.
[19:00:05] <renesis> for dynamic engine control
[19:00:07] <zeeshan> well one arguement is the fact you can get rid of idle air control motors
[19:00:12] <zeeshan> and use the tb to do idle air
[19:00:21] <renesis> variable valve systems, variable gas pedal maps
[19:00:34] <zeeshan> also you can prevent tb sticking
[19:00:35] <furrywolf> on hybrids, it makes sense. on common-rail diesels, it makes sense. but on gasoline non-hybrids...
[19:00:48] <renesis> yeah my car does not engine brake like a cable throttle
[19:00:54] <furrywolf> I don't need nor want a variable gas pedal map. heh.
[19:00:57] <renesis> it floats it, i guess for low emissions
[19:01:06] <renesis> i dont, but i think i have it
[19:01:10] <zeeshan> it also allows manufacturers to control you from abusing your car
[19:01:13] <zeeshan> "torque management"
[19:01:25] <furrywolf> zeeshan: then they should build it better. :P
[19:01:26] <renesis> and in general, its way to sensitive and im pretty sure im only using a few bits of adc resolution
[19:01:36] <PetefromTn_> LOL my good friend just called me I have not spoken to in awhile...
[19:01:55] <PetefromTn_> I had built a nice big deck on the back of his house years ago almost a decade ago now
[19:02:05] <PetefromTn_> and he told me he bought a hot tub
[19:02:18] <PetefromTn_> and wanted to know if I thought he could put it on the deck
[19:02:19] <renesis> broke the deck?!
[19:02:24] <PetefromTn_> I was like NOOOO
[19:02:28] <renesis> oh good he asked
[19:02:35] <PetefromTn_> then we were talking about the hot tub
[19:02:36] <renesis> he bought it before knowing?
[19:02:43] <Sync_> http://www.at-rs.de/tl_files/blog/Continental_EHC_Eektromechanische_Radbremse.jpg
[19:02:43] <PetefromTn_> and he told be about something I have never seen before
[19:02:56] <furrywolf> and to be honest, on a hybrid, I can picture how to build it with a non-drive-by-wire setup. have a differential linkage where the amount of power being supplied from the electric motor from the throttle position given by the cable...
[19:03:00] <PetefromTn_> apparenlty they now sell some really cool inflatable hot tubs!!
[19:03:06] <PetefromTn_> I had no idea
[19:03:11] <furrywolf> is subtracted from
[19:03:13] <renesis> sync_: neat, but i could prob just do a simpler design
[19:03:23] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: put it indoors! heh
[19:03:29] <renesis> like a solenoid, or speaker voice coil
[19:03:32] <PetefromTn_> and he told me we are invited over to check it out once he gets it setup!
[19:03:33] <Valen> if its throttle by wire it'll have a pair of hall effect sensors mounted at 90 degrees to each other as a rule
[19:03:35] <PetefromTn_> WIN!!
[19:03:47] <Valen> if the sensors disagree by more than X then it'll shut down
[19:03:52] <PetefromTn_> These things are pretty cool and also relativley cheap
[19:03:58] <XXCoder> like this PetefromTn_
http://41.media.tumblr.com/4be9ee687893b2979ffa809ddbf84928/tumblr_nrlll4xFUL1rrqskho1_500.jpg
[19:04:03] <furrywolf> Sync_: it's hard to believe that's faster than a convention hydraulic and vacuum servo system.
[19:04:04] <renesis> furrywolf: if i had access to maps and time to tweak, i maybe wouldnt mind
[19:04:10] <renesis> but i dont and i wont pay for it
[19:04:37] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoTAfaihwQM
[19:05:09] <renesis> but yeah as is, the pedal is way too sensitive, so they filtered it way to much, which makes it way too latent, and the engine brake mapping is annoying the drop way too slow
[19:05:13] <PetefromTn_> Looks pretty sweet and easily inflatable so you can set it up and take it down pretty easy....
[19:05:17] <furrywolf> also, it's hard to believe they can keep that greased adequately. even pistons submerged in brake fluid seize...
[19:05:36] <Valen> renesis: you will probably find that its just "light" like all modern cars
[19:06:00] <PetefromTn_> we have an above ground pool here but I have always kinda wanted a hot tub but never really wanted to build a whole setup for one..
[19:06:01] <furrywolf> renesis: "<renesis> like a solenoid, or speaker voice coil" if you have no clue what you're talking about, read up on the topic first.
[19:06:08] <Valen> I can't drive my mothers rav4, after getting out of my 15 year old 4 litre in-line 6
[19:06:09] <renesis> the motor components? the mapping?
[19:06:32] <Valen> the spring pushing on the pedal will be light
[19:06:44] <renesis> furrywolf: i dont see a tiny gear train in the image as being super reliable
[19:07:00] <renesis> it is light, comically compared to the volvo
[19:07:09] <renesis> but also its everything else i mentioned
[19:07:18] <JT-Shop> so the free plumbing request tossed in a manual for my Kobuta B7500 into the hat
[19:07:23] <renesis> i literally use like 2-3mm of pedal travel, normal driving
[19:07:31] <Sync_> furrywolf: why?
[19:07:36] <Sync_> torque control is very fast
[19:07:36] <furrywolf> renesis: you clearly do not understand the thousands of pounds of force that are needed to actuate a disc brake. I think my van probably puts around 6000lbs of force on the pads, just to pick a random number.
[19:08:07] <furrywolf> Sync_: there's always spring in the caliper, and that has a lot of rotation, motor inertia, etc...
[19:08:16] <renesis> furrywolf: so more current and tighter gaps, shrug
[19:08:35] <renesis> tiny lever arms
[19:09:10] <SpeedEvil> renesis: saturation rapidly kicks in
[19:09:15] <SpeedEvil> ~1 tesla or so
[19:09:30] <renesis> right so theyd prob be big =\
[19:09:33] <furrywolf> and the hydraulic force travels at around the speed of sound, other than the same movement the electric brake system would have to move.
[19:09:43] <Sync_> so what? you can have the torque control running at 10kHz and model your flex
[19:09:48] <Sync_> it is not too much of an issue
[19:10:00] <SpeedEvil> The force that is easy to do with a geared motor doing many revs is really hard to do with a solenoid
[19:10:07] <furrywolf> Sync_: I'm talking about the time from pedal applied to pads applied...
[19:10:22] <Sync_> that should be in the range of microseconds
[19:10:57] <renesis> id prob guess mille, theres capacitance in the lines
[19:11:19] <Sync_> what has capacitiance do with it?
[19:11:22] <furrywolf> eh? I can't imagine less than a half turn of the drive screw between pads-just-not-quite-touching and stopping.... figure that's 5 motor revs... you can state the motor rotating and rotate it five times in microseconds? heh
[19:11:47] <Valen> most people have quite poor "feel" for the position of their foot, and mostly operate by pressure, see if you can uprate the spring in there
[19:11:50] <renesis> if the lines are expanding theyre not necessarily delivering power until theyve expended as much as theyre going to
[19:11:54] <renesis> which takes time
[19:12:11] <Sync_> that portion is very low
[19:12:12] <zeeshan> valen, youre telling me you're not supposed to just slam on the brakes?!?!
[19:12:13] <renesis> why rubber vs braided steel hoses
[19:12:19] <Sync_> furrywolf: you can have very high angular accelerations
[19:12:47] <furrywolf> for comparrison, subaru's e-brake uses a rotating screw like that. it has a much coarser screw thread, and it takes about 60 degrees of rotation to apply e-brake levels of force.
[19:13:03] <Valen> I was talking about renesis's throttle
[19:13:20] <zeeshan> valen, youre telling me you're not supposed to just slam on the gas pedal?!?!
[19:13:26] <zeeshan> :-)
[19:13:36] <renesis> personally, i think a scion product manager told the engineers 'yo this is pussy make it feel like my lexus'
[19:13:40] <Valen> you are, but you need something inbetween stop and go as you exit the corner
[19:13:43] <renesis> so they did
[19:13:53] <zeeshan> to me a throttle is binary
[19:13:55] <zeeshan> on or off :D
[19:14:08] <zeeshan> you compensate slowing down by drifting
[19:14:13] <zeeshan> and burning out the tires
[19:14:13] <zeeshan> !
[19:14:16] <furrywolf> with that thread pitch, based on my experience with subaru's brakes, I estimate the half turn on that screw.
[19:14:24] <Valen> I can see brake by wire happening, it means they don't need a whole bunch of rubber and fluid and things. It'll just be a multiply redundant system like in aircraft
[19:14:29] <renesis> thats prob fine on a track with runoff
[19:15:04] <Sync_> Valen: or just 3 phase wires
[19:15:28] <furrywolf> Sync_: 5 revs in 100us would be 300,000 rpm...
[19:15:33] <furrywolf> 5 revs in 1000us
[19:15:42] <andypugh> I am not sure. Hydraulics give really good feedback
[19:15:51] <renesis> yeah it feels awesome
[19:16:00] <zeeshan> andypugh: im glad you think that way
[19:16:07] <Valen> put 2x electro mechanical systems in there to actuate the pad, either one of which will have sufficient force to apply the brake, have their motion checked such that the failing device is known about and triggers a "check brake" light
[19:16:07] <zeeshan> i was getting worried with the way this conversation was going
[19:16:13] <renesis> 10-20 years is how long i think itll take to figure out feedback issues
[19:16:18] <fenn> human reaction time is on the order of 200 milliseconds, why are you guys talking about microseconds
[19:16:19] <Sync_> furrywolf: yes, but it is not spinning at that rate constantly
[19:16:19] <furrywolf> and, yep, that's another issue andy broght up. in addition to the electrical brakes, you'll need a complex force-feedback pedal, which will be expensive.
[19:16:37] <zeeshan> fenn: talk about yourself
[19:16:41] <Sync_> or you just don't have that furrywolf
[19:16:41] <andypugh> I wouldn’t really want brake-by-wire on the front end of my R1 heading in to Park Corner at Cadwell Park
[19:16:42] <zeeshan> :-)
[19:16:42] <Valen> compared to all the crap in a vacuum assisted brake booster?
[19:16:48] <renesis> only expensive because its not a standard thing yet
[19:17:03] <Valen> for the pedal it'd be a solenoid and that's about all ;->
[19:17:07] <furrywolf> Sync_: just don't feel what the vehicle is doing? :P
[19:17:17] <zeeshan> andypugh: im sure you wouldn't want it on the minivan trying to brake at a red light at the intersection you're crossing either!
[19:17:24] <Sync_> the average driver does not care about brakepedal feel as long as it is firm
[19:17:41] <renesis> thats prob true
[19:17:43] <Valen> andypugh: you want it on the A380 that's coming in hot with your ass on it into a wet runway at heathrow?
[19:17:53] <furrywolf> Sync_: also, as a practical matter, I don't think that system shown there will be reliable due to lubrication and wear issues.
[19:17:58] <Valen> everything in aircraft these days is electromechanical and redundant
[19:18:08] <Valen> they just run power and signal wires out to the wings
[19:18:08] <andypugh> Yeah, that’s an altogether different sort of system.
[19:18:08] <renesis> average driver dont like steering or pedal feel
[19:18:21] <renesis> feels mean something might be wrong
[19:18:44] <Sync_> furrywolf: maintainance problem
[19:18:54] <Sync_> car will not start without dealer inspection
[19:18:56] <andypugh> Actually…. Drivers do like steering feel and complain a lot if they don’t have it. Or even if its a bit funny.
[19:19:04] <Valen> on the plus side, brake by wire might tell people their pads are worn before they start grinding rotors
[19:19:11] <zeeshan> valen there are also like 50 a380s
[19:19:13] <zeeshan> and 239031289321903903812903 cars
[19:19:17] <furrywolf> it gets too hot for most lubricants. even high-temp disc brake silicone grease on caliper slider pins goes bad in normal use, and that's not subjected to nearly the pressures of that geartrain, the force between the splined piston and the caliper body, the screw, etc.
[19:19:26] <renesis> andypugh: drivers are the monority, there are many more people who drive
[19:19:33] <renesis> if you want to categorize it like that
[19:19:34] <Sync_> furrywolf: pfpe
[19:19:36] <renesis> i like feels
[19:19:53] <Sync_> andypugh: did you drive the bmw concept with the adaptive gain steering wheel?
[19:19:57] <andypugh> Even car-users notice. They just don’t know what they are noticing.
[19:20:14] <andypugh> We have that on some Fords. I am not a fan.
[19:20:45] <Valen> zeeshan so?
[19:20:48] <andypugh> But, I need to be asleep.
[19:20:50] <furrywolf> Sync_: also, what benefit is all the extra complexity supposed to provide, anyway? even if, for the sake of argument, it's a couple miliseconds faster, no one will notice.
[19:21:00] <Sync_> haha furrywolf you bet
[19:21:04] <zeeshan> so i put jmoney that if more cars electromechanical brakes
[19:21:12] <zeeshan> @ the quality if making car parts
[19:21:14] <Valen> it's meant to make stuff cheaper for manufacturers, that's the only reason anything happens
[19:21:17] <zeeshan> we'd have a lot more deaths :)
[19:21:17] <Sync_> braking distance on variable traction surfaces goes way down furrywolf
[19:21:35] <zeeshan> how is adding a sophisticated braking system going to make things cheaper?
[19:21:40] <zeeshan> hydraulic is as dumb as a rock
[19:21:41] <andypugh> furrywolf: I have heard people say that they prefer the faster response of _narrower_ brake lines in racing applications....
[19:21:43] <zeeshan> and old ass technology
[19:21:48] <Sync_> andypugh: the full tilt the wheel no more than x° always deal?
[19:21:54] <Sync_> that was pretty strange for me to drive
[19:22:10] <Sync_> variable pitch racks are fine for me
[19:22:10] <furrywolf> Sync_: the best braking distance is to LOCK THE WHEELS. it's been shown in every single test that considers those of us in rural areas where dirt and gravel is common.
[19:22:13] <furrywolf> I hate ABS.
[19:22:18] <Sync_> it is not furrywolf
[19:22:20] <zeeshan> furrywolf: no its not
[19:22:23] <zeeshan> you be wrong there sir
[19:22:31] <andypugh> The mapping between wheel-angle and steering-wheel angle changes with speed
[19:22:38] <furrywolf> zeeshan: oh? you've found a test that says ABS stops faster on gravel?
[19:22:38] <Sync_> yeah
[19:22:47] <Valen> oh screw the crap out of that andypugh ;->
[19:22:50] <Sync_> furrywolf: drive a proper vehicle
[19:22:55] <Sync_> with gravel detection
[19:22:58] <fenn> the point of ABS is to maintain steering control, not stopping faster
[19:23:00] <furrywolf> lol
[19:23:03] <Sync_> it will allow a brake wedge to form
[19:23:17] <Valen> decent ABS will lock the wheels on gravel/dirt
[19:23:22] <Sync_> teves mk40 was capable of doing that
[19:23:27] <Sync_> 10 years ago
[19:23:32] <furrywolf> ok, so they've finally added a work-around to the problem. I've not driven a vehicle with it.
[19:23:45] <furrywolf> I know my 2001 ABS pisses me off.
[19:24:00] <Valen> you often lock the wheels?
[19:24:36] <furrywolf> Valen: I often drive on roads with potholes where the wheels are not in continual contact with the road surface, and thus lock dozens of times in one stop.
[19:24:57] <furrywolf> in a non-ABS vehicle, this is not a problem.
[19:25:00] <furrywolf> in my van...
[19:25:23] <Valen> ABS should do good things for your stopping distance in that situation, though it may feel uncomfortable ;-P
[19:25:32] <Sync_> as I said, drive a vehicle with a capable abs
[19:25:46] <Valen> actually not much would help him in that situation
[19:25:55] <furrywolf> mostly I drive vehicles without ABS, and don't have problems. :P
[19:26:01] <furrywolf> of my five, only the van has ABS.
[19:26:06] <Valen> if the wheel isn't in contact with the ground the ABS will unlock the wheel
[19:26:15] <zeeshan> furrywolf: the rx7 abs is the worst
[19:26:17] <zeeshan> but it is old tech
[19:26:21] <zeeshan> i had to chuck it out
[19:26:34] <zeeshan> it kicks in too early with 285 wide tires
[19:26:48] <furrywolf> Valen: it takes the brakes off completely (only way to unlock a wheel that has no forces applied to it), then the wheel just spins when it makes contact again, doing no braking whatsoever until force is reapplied.
[19:26:48] <zeeshan> kinda scary
[19:27:16] <Valen> that is not how ABS is meant to work
[19:27:17] <Sync_> I should get my act together and finally finish my aftermarket abs controller
[19:27:31] <furrywolf> also, the ABS completely fucks up the pedal feel. you lose both feedback and the ability to correctly modulate the brakes.
[19:27:33] <sector_0> do you guys think 3d printed hardware is strong enough to be used to mill aluminum, without being inaccurate
[19:27:53] <Sync_> you are not supposed to modulate the brake when the abs is working
[19:27:58] <Valen> as soon as that wheel starts moving faster than those around it it should start working again
[19:28:10] <XXCoder> sector_0: maybe if bit thick design
[19:28:13] <Valen> Sync_: his ABS is triggering when it shouldnt
[19:28:17] <XXCoder> sector_0: though I would go wood first
[19:28:19] <zeeshan> sector_0: are you thinking of using abs plastic?
[19:28:49] <furrywolf> Valen: no, that's exactly how abs is meant to work. it's meant to keep the wheel spinning. if you have only a very light amount of force being applied to the wheel (barely touching), in order to get the wheel spinning, anywhere near the speed of the other wheels, it has to completely disapply the brakes.
[19:28:50] <Valen> driving over a dirt road where wheels sometimes come off the ground under modest braking the ABS will trip
[19:29:06] <Valen> yes, it will remove the brake from *that* wheel not all of them
[19:29:12] <sector_0> zeeshan, XXCoder well I'm not really planning anything at the moment, but I'm just looking at my option given what I have readily available
[19:29:23] <XXCoder> you has a 3d printer eh
[19:29:31] <sector_0> XXCoder, yep
[19:29:34] <Sync_> furrywolf: that is wrong, modern ABS will regulate pressure at the maximum wheel torque before it stalls
[19:29:37] <XXCoder> ABS?
[19:29:38] <furrywolf> and then when the wheel makes contact again, there's a rather non-instant process where it applies more pressure until the wheel slows down again.
[19:29:50] <zeeshan> sector_0: abs is typical material -- just remember that aluminum is 23x stiffer than abs plastic
[19:29:55] <XXCoder> ABS plastic
[19:29:58] <Valen> I'd put that one down to your ABS
[19:30:00] <furrywolf> Sync_: if the wheel isn't touching, the maximum torque is ZERO.
[19:30:05] <Sync_> yes
[19:30:06] <zeeshan> which means you'll need to make the components significantly thicker/bigger to ensure they dont deflect as much
[19:30:07] <Sync_> so it releases
[19:30:11] <furrywolf> so it takes the brakes entirely off
[19:30:16] <XXCoder> zeeshan: and ribs I guess
[19:30:16] <furrywolf> (on that wheel)
[19:30:18] <Valen> modern ones modulate brake force several times per wheel rotation
[19:30:19] <zeeshan> yes
[19:30:20] <XXCoder> to stuffen it even more
[19:30:21] <Sync_> but it will regulate in 120ms again
[19:30:40] <zeeshan> XXCoder: im comparing solid chunks :)
[19:30:50] <Sync_> hence why there are high flow systems
[19:30:58] <furrywolf> heh, if you want crappy ABS, drive a '80s ford truck. The good news is virtually none of them actually have functional ABS anymore. lol
[19:31:01] <sector_0> XXCoder, zeeshan what if I reinforce it with epoxy?
[19:31:13] <zeeshan> sector_0: wont help
[19:31:15] <XXCoder> abs will still deform
[19:31:16] <zeeshan> epoxy is also about 23 x
[19:31:26] <zeeshan> er aluminum is about 23x stiffer than epoxy
[19:31:37] <sector_0> i see
[19:31:38] <zeeshan> you really need to give us more info :P
[19:31:43] <zeeshan> like what size end mill you want to use
[19:31:45] <XXCoder> you have to0 use quite thick abs, but it would be good enough for you to make replacement parts
[19:31:47] <zeeshan> how fast you want to use it
[19:31:49] <zeeshan> etc
[19:31:57] <zeeshan> cause that'll tell you approx what your cutting forces are
[19:32:04] <furrywolf> sector_0: Real mills are built from hundreds or thousands of pounds of cast iron.
[19:32:06] <zeeshan> once you get forces, you can then worry about what to make things out of
[19:32:09] <XXCoder> zee is the expert one there
[19:32:23] <zeeshan> furrywolf: hes only cutting aluminum though
[19:32:27] <zeeshan> doesnt need all that mass
[19:32:28] <furrywolf> sector_0: they don't do this because they like charging high shipping fees.
[19:32:45] <Valen> my 1999 falcon doesn't have a problem on dirt roads
[19:32:54] <Valen> even with super washboard corrugation
[19:32:59] <zeeshan> valen are youj from australia?
[19:33:04] <XXCoder> sector_0: you plan to make aluminium parts for your mill when you make abs mill?
[19:33:06] <Valen> but then dirt roads are pretty common here
[19:33:06] <zeeshan> thats the only place in the world they drive falcons
[19:33:06] <zeeshan> haha
[19:33:10] <Valen> zeeshan yeah
[19:33:14] <fenn> a concrete frame with 3d printed nubbins would be an interesting compromise
[19:33:15] <zeeshan> nice
[19:33:16] <sector_0> zeeshan, XXCoder well I don't want a particularly big mill, just about a 20cm X 20cm x 20cm work area
[19:33:41] <furrywolf> "<Sync_> you are not supposed to modulate the brake when the abs is working" of course you are... what if you want to stop faster, or slower, or shift weight to the other axle, or get better steering, or all sorts of things? you're always varrying the pedal force.
[19:33:43] <XXCoder> sector_0: yeah abs wont cut it for permenet use
[19:33:49] <Valen> zeeshan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon_(Australia)#/media/File:Hotness_touched.JPG is mine
[19:33:58] <zeeshan> very cool
[19:33:59] <XXCoder> but if its good enough to mill alum you can make alum parts for your machine right away
[19:34:03] <zeeshan> people modify those
[19:34:07] <zeeshan> and make them super quick
[19:34:18] <zeeshan> they are like the ford cosworth of australia
[19:34:21] <zeeshan> from what ive seen / heard
[19:34:25] <sector_0> XXCoder, well that's great then
[19:34:42] <sector_0> as long as I can bootstrap the process that's good enough
[19:34:48] <XXCoder> yeah
[19:34:50] <Valen> furrywolf: in general with ABS it is only meant to actuate when you would actually lock a wheel, so if you are trying for a straight line stop you should just plant the brakes and steer
[19:35:00] <Valen> your situation is special
[19:35:14] <Valen> zeeshan its 14 seconds from the factory in 1999
[19:35:23] <Valen> 4 litre inline 6
[19:35:28] <furrywolf> Valen: I'm not making a panic stop. lol
[19:35:30] <zeeshan> not bad
[19:36:10] <Valen> I've only unintentionally hit the ABS on my car a handful of times
[19:36:15] <furrywolf> I've lived on gravel roads the last three places I've lived...
[19:36:32] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you don't need abs
[19:36:35] <XXCoder> I havent drove on gravel road for long while now lol
[19:36:38] <Valen> (I do it every once in a while just to make sure I know its there and to practise braking)
[19:36:51] <zeeshan> data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhUUExQWFhUXFhcYFxgXFRgYHxoZFxUYFhcaGhgYHCggGBolHRgYIjEhKCkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLiwBCgoKDg0OGxAQGywmICQsLCwsLC0sLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLP/AABEIAMIBAwMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMEBQYBBwj/xABAEAABAwIDBAgEBAQFBAMAAAABAAIRAyEEEjEFQVFhBhMicYGRobEywdHwI0JSYgcUkuEzcoLC8RVjorIWQ7P/xAAZAQADAQEBAAAAA
[19:36:54] <Valen> however the first time it tripped I was rather glad it had
[19:36:55] <zeeshan> link fail
[19:36:58] <zeeshan> http://www.jjscheckel.com/equipment/pictures/128-1.jpg
[19:36:59] <XXCoder> last time there was road that was being repaired, that was 5 years ago
[19:37:05] <zeeshan> you need that attachment for your f150
[19:37:11] <Valen> I had just got the car and it had 4 different tyres on it
[19:37:11] <zeeshan> with an electronic trigger
[19:37:16] <Sync_> zeeshan: not everybody can threshold brake
[19:37:18] <zeeshan> + g force monitor
[19:37:20] <Valen> like litterally 4 totally different tires
[19:37:39] <zeeshan> Sync_: i dont think anyone can threshold brake
[19:37:44] <zeeshan> you know why i think this?
[19:37:59] <zeeshan> when they introduced abs in f1, drivers got a lot faster
[19:38:03] <zeeshan> and these guys are the best in the world
[19:38:11] <Valen> zeeshan I used to, when I had my last car without ABS I would practise braking twice a week
[19:38:25] <Valen> they would get faster because they need differential brake forces
[19:38:44] <XXCoder> I only owned one car with abs
[19:38:47] <fenn> zeeshan: with abs you can slam on the brakes instead of gradually increasing pressure until you reach the threshold, so it's faster in some situations
[19:38:51] <XXCoder> rest of em was regular
[19:38:52] <zeeshan> with older abs systems, i'd agree you could prolly outbrake the abs
[19:38:55] <zeeshan> but not modern systems
[19:39:10] <Sync_> on dry pavement it is easy
[19:39:16] <Valen> their ABS works much more like the electronic brake systems we were talking about before
[19:39:16] <Sync_> in the wet, not so much
[19:39:29] <furrywolf> I can't remember the last time I've locked my wheels on dry pavement other than testing brakes.
[19:39:32] <Valen> the ABS actually sets itself up differently for each corner in the track
[19:39:56] <zeeshan> furry you dont like my idea?
[19:40:01] <zeeshan> about the ripper attachement for your truck
[19:40:02] <XXCoder> quite a few times here, but I have very fast locked wheels solution, let brake go for millisecond as it rolls again then brake again
[19:40:08] <zeeshan> i was thinking about devising something like that for a car
[19:40:19] <zeeshan> the ONE USE TRUE emergency brake
[19:40:24] <zeeshan> it rips the road into pieces
[19:40:28] <zeeshan> but stops in 2 meters
[19:40:30] <zeeshan> :D
[19:40:37] <zeeshan> almost rips your eyes out of your sockets
[19:40:39] <furrywolf> heh, that just reminded me of another time my van's ABS pisses me off... there's a section of road I drive on every day where there's train tracks running down the middle of the road. if you brake while your wheels are on them, the ABS goes off, every time, as you don't have any grip on the narrow metal rail...
[19:40:44] <Sync_> it is also particularily tricky to brake a downforce carz zeeshan
[19:40:49] <furrywolf> well, every weekday - not usually on weekend.
[19:41:05] <Valen> XXCoder: that is the old "pulse breaking" technique, its how they used to teach people to drive
[19:41:09] <zeeshan> sync whatcha mean
[19:41:21] <furrywolf> zeeshan: kinda like the slot brake on a trolley car. it'll stop you, but you need a cutting torch to get moving again.
[19:41:23] <Valen> they would teach them to slam the pedal on, then release, then slam
[19:41:28] <XXCoder> zeeshan: massive bottom plate that suddenly slams on road and are really rough :P
[19:41:37] <Sync_> you are approaching a corner after a long straight
[19:41:37] <XXCoder> Valen: really? I figured it myself
[19:41:40] <zeeshan> XXCoder: would make a nice spark show too!
[19:41:42] <Sync_> maximum speed, maximum downforce
[19:41:45] <Sync_> thus maximum braking
[19:41:47] <Valen> furrywolf: yeah you have a crap ABS ;->
[19:42:00] <Sync_> but the maximum wheel torque decreases with lower speed
[19:42:02] <Valen> don't judge all ABS by them
[19:42:04] <furrywolf> Valen: talk to Ford. we can probably blame andy. :P
[19:42:08] <Sync_> thus you have to lift
[19:42:19] <XXCoder> Valen: normally I use increasing pressure to thesold, but emergacies is emergacy lol
[19:42:20] <Sync_> which is super tricky to do
[19:42:20] <furrywolf> Valen: my BMW's was much, much worse.
[19:42:29] <Valen> furrywolf: ABS in my similar vintage falcon is fine, blame ford america ;-P
[19:42:37] <zeeshan> Sync_: racing is intense :P
[19:42:47] <Valen> XXCoder: that's why in my non ABS cars I practise braking
[19:42:58] <furrywolf> Valen: I wonder if they have country-specific tunes, figuring that there's more gravel where you are?
[19:42:58] <Sync_> yes, but it explains why introducing ABS to formula cars makes them faster
[19:42:58] <Valen> if you don't practice a skill you will forget it
[19:43:07] <Valen> I believe that is the case yeah
[19:43:32] <zeeshan> i can only speak for myself sync..
[19:43:39] <zeeshan> i do a lot of track racing, im no professional
[19:43:41] <Valen> Sync_: it made F1 faster because they could get maximum breaking effort through the entire corner, without locking up the front inside wheel
[19:43:43] <furrywolf> Valen: Also, a car is very different than a van. I have an extended 1-ton superduty van, and with the back empty, it's some very stiff springs with no weight on them...
[19:43:43] <XXCoder> I usually test cars when I buy em see where thesold is, and various aspects like how hard acceration it has.
[19:43:53] <furrywolf> I don't do any racing at all. lol
[19:43:56] <zeeshan> but i know this much when driving on the street, i'm in "race" mode
[19:44:02] <zeeshan> so there are situations where i slam the brakes
[19:44:05] <zeeshan> and abs has saved my ass
[19:44:10] <furrywolf> although I do pass tourists on the inside of switchbacks on dirt roads. does that count?
[19:44:10] <Valen> heh those slide out if you sneeze at them
[19:44:21] <zeeshan> so no matter how well i can brake without abs in the rx7
[19:44:24] <malcom2073> Not in race mode??
[19:44:26] <zeeshan> in my daily driver car, i perfer abs
[19:44:26] <malcom2073> So when the car is off?
[19:44:31] <zeeshan> malcom2073: haha
[19:44:38] <XXCoder> Valen: one time I had to use it on my van. wow van is heavy and different. thankfully I figured escape route while I was still braking and BARELY dodged smashing into car.
[19:44:40] <furrywolf> lol
[19:44:47] <zeeshan> i'd be the last to admit that, but yes, not in race mode always :(
[19:45:04] <furrywolf> is that because your car is in a lot of pieces, and thus off? :P
[19:45:06] <Sync_> same here zeeshan
[19:45:12] <XXCoder> I went to left and stopped nose to nose to that car, and literally inches away. I couldnt move till that car moved away lol
[19:45:20] <zeeshan> my natural reaction in a emergency stop situation is steering like most people
[19:45:28] <zeeshan> and abs really helps with that
[19:45:39] <XXCoder> maybe 2 inches bwteen my van side and that car side lol
[19:45:42] <zeeshan> though i think track racing has helped me not oversteer too much
[19:45:47] <furrywolf> I got rear-ended last month by someone who never even touched their brakes. ABS sure didn't help them any. heh.
[19:45:56] <XXCoder> yeah
[19:45:59] <zeeshan> furrywolf: tht's your fault
[19:46:02] <Valen> yeah I'm glad I have ABS, makes driving much less skillfull on my part
[19:46:05] <zeeshan> you didnt have the ripper attachement that i suggested
[19:46:07] <zeeshan> if you did
[19:46:08] <XXCoder> cant do magic 0 force braking lol
[19:46:10] <zeeshan> she woulda been OWNED
[19:46:20] <zeeshan> so not only is it an emergency stop
[19:46:25] <zeeshan> it's a "FU" to people who rear end you
[19:46:29] <XXCoder> lol
[19:46:30] <zeeshan> i should patent the idea
[19:46:45] <XXCoder> "hmm new gouges on that thing, whtever. pity about your car.
[19:47:06] <zeeshan> :D
[19:47:29] <XXCoder> zee reminds me of one time my bro, driving old car, smashed into other car
[19:47:37] <XXCoder> its bumper was lowered maybe 1 inch
[19:47:41] <XXCoder> other car was totaled
[19:47:42] <furrywolf> speaking of oversteering, my subaru tends to "dig in" to sharp corners pretty heavily right now... I think it's the -1.5 degrees of camber. make sense, or am I way off?
[19:47:44] <zeeshan> rofl
[19:47:52] <zeeshan> musta been an old car XXCoder
[19:47:55] <XXCoder> it is
[19:48:01] <zeeshan> they are built like tanks
[19:48:11] <Valen> my car is so much lighter than modern ones
[19:48:13] <XXCoder> I smashed my head on front chair, had headache for a day after
[19:48:24] <zeeshan> aw
[19:48:27] <Valen> mine is ~1200kg, the new one of the same line is ~2000kg
[19:48:39] <zeeshan> Valen: i bet the new ones are safer :)
[19:48:47] <Valen> probably.....
[19:48:54] <zeeshan> they dont just add weight for no reason!
[19:49:04] <furrywolf> heh, I drove my subaru safely off the road... the bodywork is mashed into the tire, but it still drives. her car was TOTALLED. all over the road, parts everywhere, engine shot,... I think the only parts I lost from the subaru was one piece of trim and the light plastics... even '80s cars are a lot solider than modern cars.
[19:49:05] <XXCoder> zeeshan: it wasnt too bad, my later accient, lady smashed in my car so hard I was dizzy for 9 months
[19:49:21] <zeeshan> damn
[19:49:23] <zeeshan> concussion?
[19:49:28] <furrywolf> it's still totalled, but if you compared my car to her car, you wouldn't imagine it was the same collision.
[19:49:35] <XXCoder> xrays showed nothing
[19:49:47] <zeeshan> but during an accident
[19:49:50] <XXCoder> I still get dizzy sometimes
[19:49:53] <zeeshan> your brain slams against your skull
[19:50:06] <zeeshan> which is why driving a tank isn't good
[19:50:12] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah other car was 70s while my car is 80s
[19:50:22] <zeeshan> do you guys know about the steel they use in modern cars?
[19:50:23] <XXCoder> both pretty tough but her car was absically intact
[19:50:32] <zeeshan> i was absolutely amazed when i learned about it
[19:50:34] <zeeshan> TRIP steels
[19:51:10] <zeeshan> it transforms from austensite (very ductile) to martensite
[19:51:14] <XXCoder> zeeshan: just glad I turned so it was near T hit and not deadly 45 degree, I'd have died probably or seriously hurt
[19:51:14] <zeeshan> when you strain it really fast
[19:51:44] <zeeshan> so basically that means that a hood would crush easily for 40% strain
[19:51:51] <zeeshan> but suddenly become rock hard thereafter
[19:51:54] <furrywolf> what we really need, rather than improving cars, is to improve drivers. I vote we test everyone who see who can simply not notice that traffic has stopped on a straight stretch of road in bright sun, and execute them.
[19:52:11] <zeeshan> so it absorbs a lot of energy letting the car crush until you get the to the firewall
[19:52:12] <zeeshan> where it becomes rock hard
[19:52:13] <furrywolf> s/who see/to see
[19:52:32] <zeeshan> XXCoder: glad you're with us :)
[19:52:55] <XXCoder> zeeshan: interesting
[19:53:10] <zeeshan> it drives me insane when i see a body shop just weld a random piec eof steel
[19:53:11] <XXCoder> furrywolf: make driving test once per 10 years thing
[19:53:13] <zeeshan> to fix a structural component
[19:53:14] <zeeshan> :[
[19:53:21] <furrywolf> I was on a straight stretch of road. I'd come to a gradual stop over a distance of probably close to a quarter mile. There was other stopped traffic with me. It was 1pm on a clear sunny day. She simply DIDN'T NOTICE. We need to devise a test for these people, and remove them from the gene pool.
[19:53:28] <XXCoder> dunno if I would pass again LOL
[19:53:51] <XXCoder> furrywolf: my worse was one that drove out of parking. at 40 mph
[19:54:03] <XXCoder> he was doing faster than road speed limit in parking lot!!
[19:54:15] <XXCoder> he hit so hard tire touched engine
[19:54:15] <Sync_> zeeshan: look at how it changes to martensite with fatique stress
[19:54:19] <XXCoder> and it was 70s car
[19:54:24] <Sync_> like driving for a few 100kkm
[19:54:28] <furrywolf> XXCoder: that's an entirely different mental issue.
[19:54:34] <Sync_> ~fatigue
[19:54:48] <zeeshan> never seen a study on that
[19:54:52] <zeeshan> just impact performance
[19:54:52] <XXCoder> I guess its 40 mph but pretty sure its faster
[19:55:02] <Sync_> also look at how copper messes the grain structure
[19:55:07] <furrywolf> my favorite steel is ford steel. ever look under the hood of a '80s or '90s ford truck? if the upper core support is still attached to the fenders, it's doing well. :P
[19:55:08] <XXCoder> fur glad I wasn't seriously affected though
[19:55:13] <zeeshan> Sync_: what is the point youre trying to make
[19:55:21] <Sync_> modern steels suck
[19:55:24] <furrywolf> I don't know if I've ever seen one of those trucks without fatigue cracks throughout the body.
[19:55:30] <furrywolf> even the doors grow them
[19:55:32] <Sync_> they are awesome but they suck
[19:55:43] <zeeshan> well tell that to all the car companies that are using them now
[19:55:51] <zeeshan> and made cars safer
[19:55:56] <Sync_> salzgitter compared an A6 new and after I think 450000km
[19:55:56] <zeeshan> why are you such a hater
[19:56:10] <Sync_> crash performance used was hilarious
[19:56:27] <zeeshan> 450,000 as far as im concerned is well past the life of a modern car
[19:56:28] <XXCoder> so far, I have experenced 2 major hit and runs, 4 very close calls (one of my my fault) and 5 very minor hits
[19:56:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: you're lucky. I've been crippled for over a month now.
[19:56:47] <zeeshan> XXCoder: you need an alternative mode of transportation!
[19:56:50] <furrywolf> I mostly have feeling back in my leg...
[19:57:03] <XXCoder> yeah I consider myself lucky in that way.
[19:57:21] <XXCoder> not so lucky side? 2 fucking hit and run. most people dont even experence that once
[19:57:49] <Sync_> zeeshan: the copper thing leads to only new steel being able to be put in cars
[19:57:52] <Sync_> no recycled steels
[19:57:58] <furrywolf> XXCoder: my subaru has been hit while parked twice. once at the very back corner, once on the back side by the gas filler.
[19:58:04] <Sync_> as the copper content of car scrap is too high
[19:58:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: the second time was bad enough to press the outer skin all the way into the inner skin, but no structual damage. I had to work a while to pound it back out and bondo it nice and smooth.
[19:58:43] <XXCoder> crazy
[19:59:14] <XXCoder> furrywolf: know whats weird thing? I got an accient on the FIRST day I ever drove with full license (not permit)
[19:59:16] <furrywolf> I was parked on the street on saint patrick's day. presumably a drunk driver. since all drunk drivers are fucking assholes and canidates for gene pool chlorination, it's not surprising he/she was too much of an asshole to stop...
[19:59:17] <zeeshan> Sync_: why cant you purify the steel?
[19:59:24] <zeeshan> most of that stuff floats up to as slag?
[19:59:34] <furrywolf> shouldn't the copper be part of the slag?
[19:59:41] <zeeshan> yea
[19:59:41] <XXCoder> some guy almost fell into road with bicycle but hit my car as I was passed. left 2 rubber marks. I may actually have saved his life
[19:59:45] <Sync_> because copper will contaminate it in ppm
[20:00:02] <zeeshan> so it sounds like you need more quality control
[20:00:03] <Sync_> and it is very difficult to get it that pure
[20:00:03] <zeeshan> when making it
[20:00:14] <Sync_> it makes it expensive and not environmentally friendly
[20:00:22] <Sync_> because you cannot use car scrap to cool the melt
[20:00:27] <just_pink> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4jwVdFsoGo
[20:00:30] <just_pink> :(
[20:00:36] <Sync_> and it is too much hassle for the scrappers to remove wiring harnesses
[20:01:04] <zeeshan> hey if it makes cars safer
[20:01:06] <zeeshan> F the env
[20:01:06] <zeeshan> :)
[20:01:12] <furrywolf> Sync_: giant calutrons. can't get much purer than that. :)
[20:01:21] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah I still wonder once a while, even after hmm 12 years?
[20:01:39] <Sync_> crash performance is not limited by the steel zeeshan
[20:01:49] <zeeshan> ofcourse not
[20:01:53] <zeeshan> it is a big part of it though
[20:01:55] <fenn> i thought cars had aluminum crumple zones
[20:02:05] <zeeshan> crumple zone engineering is another big part
[20:02:50] <furrywolf> my truck has well-engineered crumple zones... whatever you hit, and whatever hits you. lol
[20:02:55] <XXCoder> just_pink: so when are you buying me that cnc machine? lol
[20:03:13] <zeeshan> fenn:
http://www.drivealuminum.org/images/crushed-aluminum
[20:03:25] <zeeshan> the folds are directly proprotional to the energy absorbed
[20:03:25] <fenn> purty
[20:03:33] <zeeshan> thats an aluminum tube, (not the one we tested)
[20:03:36] <zeeshan> but it looks similar
[20:03:46] <PetefromTn_> just_pink why is that a frown?
[20:04:22] <XXCoder> its tapping so hard its smoking
[20:04:23] <furrywolf> that's pretty impressive. I'd imagine the tube would buckle then bend sideways unless constrained.
[20:04:42] <zeeshan> furrywolf: as far as i know only aluminum does this
[20:04:50] <XXCoder> interesting. I'd guess same
[20:04:51] <zeeshan> steel does what youre describing
[20:05:02] <just_pink> I'm still workin on the stack controller, and than I get this video.. :(
[20:05:07] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: aluminum lawn furniture does what I'm describing too. :)
[20:05:08] <Sync_> zeeshan: I'd rather have low alloy steels and a roll cage than highly engineered steels that you cannot repair
[20:05:09] <XXCoder> zeeshan: I guess due to properies of ductability and other factors
[20:05:28] <zeeshan> XXCoder: i have no idea why :(
[20:05:42] <zeeshan> Sync_: me too
[20:05:44] <furrywolf> the scariest thing I've seen was a crash test between a smart car and a mid-sized sedan (tempted to say it was a camry, but I don't remember for sure). don't ever drive a smart car.
[20:05:46] <zeeshan> i need to build a cage for the rx7
[20:05:58] <malcom2073> It get out often?
[20:06:08] <zeeshan> no
[20:06:15] <zeeshan> but when it does, its throttle 100%
[20:06:17] <zeeshan> :D
[20:06:21] <furrywolf> the sedan KEPT DRIVING STRAIGHT. with minimal damage. Its occupants underwent very little sudden change in direction. The smart car FLEW BACKWARDS. instantly.
[20:06:32] <Sync_> wow
[20:06:33] <Sync_> phyics
[20:06:37] <XXCoder> wow
[20:06:38] <Sync_> how they work
[20:06:47] <XXCoder> I would use professional driving belt on smart car
[20:06:55] <furrywolf> it's not safe to be on the road in anything that light. heh.
[20:07:02] <Sync_> it is very safe
[20:07:04] <zeeshan> furrywolf: let people drive smart cars
[20:07:05] <XXCoder> that cross both shoulder front resrant tyoe
[20:07:06] <zeeshan> and electric cars
[20:07:06] <XXCoder> type
[20:07:07] <zeeshan> !!
[20:07:46] <Sync_> furrywolf: crash a f350 into a camry and it will go flying the same way
[20:07:51] <zeeshan> in a car accident, it's one good place to be a fat
[20:07:52] <zeeshan> :)
[20:08:03] <XXCoder> Elio I can't wait to get one
[20:08:12] <XXCoder> wonder how it would handle being hit.
[20:08:40] <zeeshan> if it was upto me and legal and if i could fit one on the road
[20:08:42] <furrywolf> Sync_: injury is directly related to how quickly you change direction. the smart car quickly changed direction to a substantially negative velocity relative to its original direction. had a person been in it, their brain would have slammed their skull, and all sorts of bad things.
[20:08:45] <zeeshan> i'd be driving one of these :
http://truckgps.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/caterpillar-797f.gif
[20:09:03] <zeeshan> shit even a a380 will have a hard time owning me
[20:09:07] <furrywolf> while the camry driver would have pulled to the side of the road and gotten out.
[20:09:21] <Sync_> look at accident statistics
[20:09:28] <Sync_> for its class it is a very safe car
[20:09:49] <zeeshan> furrywolf: it's called G's you know
[20:09:50] <XXCoder> cutting 2 inches deep in steel dang
[20:09:51] <furrywolf> zeeshan: a few years ago someone here was killed in a full-size tractor. got rear-ended by a fully loaded semi. driver was distracted, never touched the brakes.
[20:10:00] <XXCoder> 7:00 or so at that video
[20:10:02] <furrywolf> so even a cat won't always save you.
[20:10:13] <zeeshan> furrywolf: the key is to have the biggest and heaviest vehicle on the road
[20:10:16] <zeeshan> :)
[20:10:25] <XXCoder> just get a tank
[20:10:29] <furrywolf> I saw the aftermath... it ripped the tractor in two. it was not pretty.
[20:10:30] <zeeshan> or go VERY FAST
[20:10:32] <zeeshan> p = mv
[20:10:36] <zeeshan> simple equation
[20:10:42] <zeeshan> need mass and velocity!
[20:10:42] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msPrOIAVUZo
[20:10:56] <furrywolf> zeeshan: unfortunately that same equation applies to your internal organs as well.
[20:11:04] <zeeshan> yes
[20:11:09] <XXCoder> we REALLY need integal fields
[20:11:11] <zeeshan> that's why you gotta sure nothing suddenly changes your momentum
[20:11:14] <Sync_> you can withstand substantial forces internally
[20:11:16] <zeeshan> aka deceleration
[20:11:23] <XXCoder> interion cancelling
[20:11:33] <zeeshan> XXCoder: that is my most favourite video
[20:11:41] <zeeshan> wait thats not it
[20:11:44] <XXCoder> so that was you
[20:11:47] <Sync_> although it feels really weird when your lungs hit your ribs from the inside
[20:11:51] <zeeshan> its the guy who goes on a rampage -- he's a welder
[20:12:00] <XXCoder> lol
[20:12:04] <zeeshan> he puts like 2" thick plate on his backhoe or something
[20:12:17] <furrywolf> it's sad how many accidents are caused by people simply failing to notice stopped/slowed traffic, even on clear days on straight roads... we really need some gene pool chlorination.
[20:12:30] <XXCoder> psh that video guys literally driving tank
[20:12:34] <XXCoder> smasling cars and stuff
[20:12:50] <XXCoder> not even police could stoip it
[20:13:25] <furrywolf> the guy in the tractor was on a straight stretch of highway, a couple miles of clear road, sunny day... he had his lights on, orange warning signs, and everything... despite being visible for several miles, the driver of the semi never noticed he was there.
[20:13:42] <furrywolf> just like when I got rear-ended... at least I got hit by a volvo, not a semi...
[20:14:06] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I hate driving in rainy days.
[20:14:07] <furrywolf> my neighbors have been rear-ended twice, last time was about a year ago... they were stopped at a red light, had been for about 20 seconds... person never touched the brakes then either.
[20:14:13] <XXCoder> theres always in least 3 damn accients at i5
[20:14:17] <fenn> can someone explain why you would need a chain-based tool changer with what appears to be hundreds of slots
[20:14:28] <zeeshan> fenn: for production
[20:14:31] <furrywolf> fenn: when you have hundreds of tools, duh.
[20:14:33] <XXCoder> rain = slack roads idiot drivers
[20:14:41] <zeeshan> for example sometimes we had 10 of the same tool
[20:14:51] <zeeshan> these machines ran 24 hours
[20:15:06] <zeeshan> you'd go inside a room with the tool changer which had multiple racks
[20:15:13] <zeeshan> and without stopping the machine, you could load more tools up
[20:15:25] <XXCoder> theres few at work like that
[20:15:27] <XXCoder> largest has gundreds of tools
[20:15:32] <zeeshan> yea dude!
[20:15:32] <XXCoder> it mills titanium usually
[20:15:33] <zeeshan> they are so cool
[20:15:47] <fenn> the one in the video is all one chain, not separate racks
[20:15:48] <furrywolf> in just about every rear-end accident I've seen or heard of, the person NEVER NOTICED stopped traffic. Where are their brains such that they can not notice what's happening in front of them, sometimes for several minutes straight?
[20:15:48] <zeeshan> its scary as shit going in there to change a tool while the machine is live though
[20:16:21] <zeeshan> furrywolf: its called being human
[20:16:28] <zeeshan> people freeze, just like deer when something shocking happens
[20:16:39] <XXCoder> zeeshan: jeeez! none of machines I saw has room for that
[20:16:42] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: nothing shocking has happened yet.
[20:16:56] <furrywolf> they're just driving around completely oblivious to the road in front of them.
[20:16:58] <XXCoder> and one with hundreds of tools theres seperate computer that can take tool out for you
[20:17:00] <zeeshan> XXCoder: to be honest, i wasn't into machining that much back then, was just a job -- i totally forgot the name
[20:17:06] <zeeshan> i've tried to look for it, but icant find it
[20:17:10] <zeeshan> i thought it was by mori seiki
[20:17:15] <zeeshan> but it's not
[20:17:31] <furrywolf> hrmm, we need some kind of test for that... some type of red flag that randomly springs out of the road on the highway. if you hit it, a cop walks over and shoots you.
[20:17:56] <malcom2073> bwahahaha
[20:17:58] <malcom2073> that's awesome
[20:18:14] <XXCoder> lol fur
[20:18:17] <fenn> furrywolf: why not fully automate the system and just toss barrels of mercury fulminate onto the road
[20:18:28] <furrywolf> road safety will improve dramatically, quickly.
[20:18:35] <zeeshan> furry will be victim number one of that device
[20:18:39] <zeeshan> :D
[20:18:49] <XXCoder> furrywolf: what if flags pops up IN my van engine as I drive by
[20:19:12] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I don't drink, don't use drugs, don't use the cell phone while driving, and pay attention to the road.
[20:19:20] <zeeshan> Lies
[20:19:27] <zeeshan> im sure you've been distracted by a bug before
[20:19:32] <zeeshan> you're not super human
[20:19:48] <furrywolf> if you let a bug cause you to kill some innocent person, you deserve it.
[20:19:49] <XXCoder> heh one time I was driving with cake on passager side
[20:20:05] <zeeshan> no ones innocent
[20:20:06] <zeeshan> :D
[20:20:07] <malcom2073> furrywolf: has obviously never had a bee fly up his shorts while driving
[20:20:11] <zeeshan> haha
[20:20:13] <XXCoder> as I was turning into road it almostb fell off, I went to catch it, almost smashed into other car
[20:20:17] <XXCoder> next tume fuck the cake
[20:20:19] <zeeshan> dude once i had a spider
[20:20:24] <zeeshan> just literally string down in front of my face
[20:20:27] <zeeshan> what a fucker
[20:20:34] <zeeshan> i think it was purposely trolling me
[20:20:42] <furrywolf> heh, all my vehicles have spiders.
[20:20:48] <furrywolf> they eat the annoying bugs!
[20:21:04] <zeeshan> yea well this troll spider got me good that day
[20:21:09] <zeeshan> i had to manage to pull over somehow
[20:21:30] <XXCoder> zeeshan:
http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences3/bee
[20:21:49] <zeeshan> exactly lol
[20:22:38] <XXCoder> http://theoatmeal.com/comics/minor_differences3 the full comic
[20:23:13] <Tom_itx> what would cause IO pins to toggle randomly in the Hal Configuration Watch window?
[20:23:44] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: noise!
[20:24:10] <furrywolf> think about the guy on the tractor that got killed... the semi driver should have seen him SEVERAL MINUTES in advance. a straight road for 5+ miles, 10+ mile visiblity, brightly colored tractor with warning signs and strobes... there's no bee in the truck that causes you to keep driving 75mph for several minutes without ever glancing out the windshield.
[20:24:34] <Tom_itx> none of the other IO do that
[20:24:35] <XXCoder> furrywolf: probably rubbing off while driving
[20:24:38] <XXCoder> seruously dunno
[20:24:51] <malcom2073> There's two kinds of people who are in accidents: Those not at fault, and those who lie about why it happened
[20:25:33] <furrywolf> lol
[20:26:05] <XXCoder> this is utterly true.
http://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences2/locker_room
[20:26:30] <furrywolf> same thing when I got hit last month... straight road, excellent visibility, and I'd slowly stopped and had been stopped, with other stopped traffic that had stopped even earlier... she must have spent at least 30 seconds without looking out the windshield.
[20:27:19] * furrywolf has never been in a room with naked men
[20:27:43] <XXCoder> trust me, for some reason older people stop giving fuck
[20:27:56] <XXCoder> which means evenually I wont :P
[20:28:49] <fenn> XXCoder: eat plenty of salmon to help your brain heal, if you aren't already
[20:28:51] <zeeshan> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/spindle-taper-repair-122416/
[20:28:52] <zeeshan> wow
[20:28:53] <zeeshan> rofl
[20:28:58] <zeeshan> frank mari is the man
[20:29:01] <furrywolf> XXCoder: I've never given much of a fuck. heh.
[20:29:28] <XXCoder> lol
[20:30:03] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: noise!
[20:30:04] <zeeshan> :P
[20:37:49] <furrywolf> that's a pretty ugly taper.
[20:38:34] <furrywolf> I need to do that to my old craftsman drill press. the chuck spun in the spindle at some point.
[20:38:47] <furrywolf> but it's a bit harder without xyz. lol
[20:39:07] <fenn> you can buy morse taper reamers for about $20 from enco
[20:39:57] <fenn> ugh they changed the website to require javascript
[20:41:30] <fenn> ok enco only has $50 ones now
[20:45:21] <fenn> has anyone here built machines from concrete before?
[20:46:42] <fenn> i'm interested in all the devilish details
[20:47:19] <fenn> there's a lot written about "polymer concrete" but i'm not really sure what that means.. also "epoxy granite" which is completely different
[20:48:28] <fenn> also wondering about how severe the post-cure warping is over time
[20:48:30] <CaptHindsight> acrylated concrete
[20:49:43] <furrywolf> epoxy granite has come up numerous times in here. I'm not convinced it's cheap.
[20:49:50] <just_pink> In EDM machining what make the machining more efficient, the current or the voltage?
[20:49:52] <fenn> it's definitely not cheap
[20:50:02] <fenn> epoxy is like $100/gal
[20:50:38] <CaptHindsight> nah few $/lb for epoxy
[20:51:11] <CaptHindsight> epoxy granite is ~10% epoxy
[20:51:19] <just_pink> In EDM machining what make the the machining more efficient, the current or th voltage
[20:51:30] <CaptHindsight> density of the epoxy is also ~1 - 1.1
[20:52:39] <fenn> $100/gal is $10/lb so not that far off
[20:53:03] <just_pink> It is really depends on the type of the epoxy
[20:53:44] <CaptHindsight> just_pink: you mean like 5 minute vs plastic epoxy?
[20:55:16] <zeeshan> just_pink: what do you mean by more efficient?
[20:55:26] <zeeshan> more mateerial removal rate?
[20:55:35] <just_pink> some resins are very expensive. you can see here,
http://www.fibreglast.com
[20:55:48] <just_pink> zeeshan: yes
[20:56:19] <just_pink> for 100W EDM to go with 100V 1A or 1V 100A
[20:56:21] <fenn> each spark has a certain amount of charge (number of electrons) so the current is proportional to the number of sparks per second
[20:56:32] <fenn> more current means faster material removal rate
[20:58:14] <fenn> the voltage is a function of the gap between the part and electrode, and the dielectric fluid. a higher voltage means more energy goes into each spark, but it would seem to me (a wild guess) that there is a minimum energy required to vaporize the surface layer of material, and any more than that is waste
[20:58:51] <zeeshan> just_pink: 1v 100A
[20:59:24] <zeeshan> you'd be better with 1nV 100A
[20:59:34] <zeeshan> in my honest opinion
[21:00:27] <fenn> looks like actual edm machines use something like 100V
[21:01:36] <zeeshan> i did a small presentation abotu this a while back
[21:01:40] <zeeshan> a forced one that we had to do
[21:02:01] <zeeshan> my understanding was that you want to minimize the gap , you want a short pulse of high current
[21:02:27] <zeeshan> the voltage has to be just sufficient enough to allow a spark to be made
[21:02:37] <zeeshan> if you have too much gap or voltage
[21:02:43] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cn0WRXPKs CNC Epoxy Granite
[21:02:44] <just_pink> and what is the best method to mether the spark gap and keep constant spark gap all the time (except of the finishing pass)
[21:02:46] <zeeshan> you get too much stray sparks which hurt finish and precision
[21:04:14] <zeeshan> the best method is to not mess with edm
[21:04:19] <zeeshan> and finish your stack light
[21:04:47] * Tom_itx has an idea about the IO
[21:04:53] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: noise
[21:04:59] <Tom_itx> don't think so
[21:05:00] <zeeshan> is it just one input doing it
[21:05:04] <Tom_itx> 4
[21:05:08] <zeeshan> which 4 specifically
[21:05:13] <Tom_itx> but the differential side has resistors on it
[21:05:19] <Tom_itx> they may be too strong
[21:05:28] <Tom_itx> 5 7 9 11
[21:05:33] <zeeshan> that doesnt help!
[21:05:34] <zeeshan> what are they for
[21:05:45] <Tom_itx> switching my pendant axis
[21:05:57] <zeeshan> did you hal scope em up
[21:06:01] <zeeshan> to see whats up
[21:06:08] <Tom_itx> just hal show
[21:06:14] <just_pink> zeeshan: but I want to add EDM capabilities to the machine.
[21:06:16] <zeeshan> scope it
[21:06:29] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure how to trigger the scope and set it up
[21:06:43] <zeeshan> pop up hal show
[21:06:46] <zeeshan> op up halscope
[21:06:54] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna go off my hunch here and see something
[21:06:57] <zeeshan> asap you notice the change in hal show, trigger it manually
[21:16:09] <just_pink> why the EDM electrod go up and down and get pulses of power?
[21:17:46] <fenn> i dont get why he has huge blocks of iron inside the epoxy granite casting
[21:18:29] <furrywolf> I'm sure google will answer all your questions about things that start pulsing after they go up and down enough.
[21:37:50] <Tom_itx> zeeshan
[21:37:55] <zeeshan> hi
[21:38:10] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/bitfiles/Screenshot-HAL%20Oscilloscope.png
[21:38:21] <Tom_itx> those are inputs
[21:38:33] <zeeshan> holy moly
[21:38:39] <zeeshan> they are really triggering like crazy!
[21:38:39] <Tom_itx> i tried 2 different 7i90 boards with same result
[21:39:00] <zeeshan> one interesting thing to note is
[21:39:12] <Tom_itx> IO9 doesn't change
[21:39:19] <zeeshan> the pulses are the same for those 3 that are changing
[21:39:27] <Tom_itx> yeah
[21:39:36] <zeeshan> you should send me a .txt
[21:39:40] <zeeshan> of all the data points
[21:39:42] <zeeshan> ill FFT it
[21:39:46] <furrywolf> what are these pins connected to?
[21:39:48] <zeeshan> we can see right away if its noise
[21:39:52] <zeeshan> anmd where it's coming from
[21:40:04] <Tom_itx> not sure what you're after
[21:40:20] <zeeshan> is there anyway to dump that into a log file
[21:40:24] <zeeshan> that output from halscope
[21:40:29] <Tom_itx> no clue
[21:40:30] <zeeshan> whats it say under file
[21:40:33] <fenn> the frequency will give hints as to the source of the noise/crosstalk
[21:41:01] <Tom_itx> it's all that's left to get this mill working
[21:41:15] <Tom_itx> i ran my test rigid tap program and it worked ok
[21:41:21] <furrywolf> what are they connected to, and do you have a non-hal 'scope to compare to?
[21:41:26] <Tom_itx> it's just the pendant jog that doesn' work right
[21:41:37] <Tom_itx> i have a scope yes
[21:41:43] <zeeshan> furrywolf: hal scope shows it so well though
[21:41:44] <Tom_itx> not gonna dig it out though
[21:41:50] <zeeshan> you can see all 3 channels going through the same thing
[21:41:54] <furrywolf> so all three pins have the same noise? have you checked ground and power supply?
[21:42:03] <zeeshan> i want the DATA!!!
[21:42:06] <Tom_itx> multiple times
[21:42:06] <zeeshan> i wanna FFT this!!
[21:42:16] <Tom_itx> not sure how to save that
[21:42:21] <zeeshan> what does it say under file
[21:42:24] <zeeshan> im not near my linuxcnc box
[21:42:43] <CaptHindsight> when i was kid all we had were SFT's :)
[21:42:50] <Tom_itx> i'm about to wrap it up for tonight though
[21:43:01] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: you did em by hand eh!
[21:43:06] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: what's on pin9?
[21:43:06] <Tom_itx> arm is giving out... been struggling with a pinched nerve
[21:43:14] <zeeshan> doh
[21:43:21] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, it's the axis select for X Y Z A
[21:43:23] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: with a slide rule if we were lucky
[21:43:27] <Tom_itx> those 4 IO
[21:43:29] <zeeshan> hehe
[21:43:50] <Tom_itx> i could have the logic inverted for the pulses to it
[21:43:52] <furrywolf> is this a pendant you built?
[21:43:58] <Tom_itx> yes
[21:44:08] <Tom_itx> and it worked but i had to remap all the IO
[21:44:16] <Tom_itx> and the logic inverted for alot of it
[21:44:35] <Tom_itx> but i made progress tonight.
[21:44:43] <Tom_itx> i'll pick it up again later
[21:45:09] <furrywolf> it's odd for noise to be so similar on multiple inputs... is the encoder supposed to put out anything that's pulses of some form?
[21:45:12] <Tom_itx> the other pendant buttons work ok as well as the MPG
[21:45:39] <Tom_itx> i'll figure it out
[21:45:49] <Tom_itx> but it _is_ odd
[21:45:57] <furrywolf> what function are those three pins?
[21:46:03] <Tom_itx> it wasn't one thing i suspected
[21:46:15] <Tom_itx> not gonna keep repeating it
[21:46:27] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, it's the axis select for X Y Z A
[21:46:44] <furrywolf> oh, I thought that was just what pin9 was, since that's what he asked.
[21:46:58] <Tom_itx> it's the only one that doesn't switch
[21:47:22] <furrywolf> did you disable the pullups on the mesa board?
[21:47:47] <Tom_itx> yes
[21:47:52] <Tom_itx> i might have missed one
[21:47:56] <Tom_itx> i'll double check
[21:48:07] <furrywolf> sure you don't want them enabled?
[21:48:21] <Tom_itx> err not the pullups rather the terminators on the 7i47
[21:48:34] <Tom_itx> pullups are probably enabled still
[21:51:14] * furrywolf googles a 7i90 manual
[21:52:17] <naja452> Hello
[21:52:33] <Tom_itx> all default jumpers on the 7i90
[21:53:21] <furrywolf> looks like the pullups can't be disabled, so there goes that theory.
[21:53:50] <zeeshan> hi
[21:53:51] <zeeshan> f6t5
[21:53:55] <zeeshan> wtf why is this tube so hard to find
[21:53:58] <zeeshan> locally.
[21:54:12] <Tom_itx> it will be some silly thing i'm sure
[21:55:21] <furrywolf> they just run straight to a rotary switch to select the axis?
[21:55:30] <naja452> Anyone ever had trouble with EMC2 not coming back to the same spot after doing an all-axis move?
[21:55:47] <furrywolf> naja452: you're probably losing steps
[21:56:00] <fenn> Tom_itx: check for loose chips and wires shorting something in the pendant
[21:56:02] <zeeshan> servo stepper?
[21:56:05] <naja452> quick ways to tell?
[21:56:17] <naja452> stepper
[21:56:22] <furrywolf> quickest way to tell is it doesn't go back to the same spot if you go back and forth. :P
[21:56:56] <naja452> the short of it is I amm doing a routing job with a v-bit
[21:57:00] <furrywolf> you could also have a loose shaft coupler, timing pulley, etc, causing it to slip mechanically
[21:57:15] <naja452> the whole job (5000ish lines0 goes swell
[21:57:27] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, yes
[21:57:31] <furrywolf> do you get any realtime errors?
[21:57:42] <Tom_itx> fenn, i will
[21:57:49] <naja452> then when you get tot sharpening up the corners with the vbit it falls down through the work as it goes around the part to all the corners
[21:57:50] <Tom_itx> done for this evening though
[21:58:29] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: and which pin stays high is the one that's selected correctly?
[21:58:45] <Tom_itx> not sure
[21:59:00] <Tom_itx> it should switch but 9 stays high
[21:59:07] <Tom_itx> the others follow the switch
[21:59:22] <Tom_itx> but have the noise present
[21:59:53] <furrywolf> hrmm. it could just noise, but that's a lot of noise. how far is the board from the switch?
[21:59:56] <Tom_itx> i'll go thru all the connections tomorrow
[22:00:18] <Tom_itx> 3' maybe
[22:00:18] <furrywolf> that is, a few inches, or many feet?
[22:00:25] <Tom_itx> shielded cable
[22:00:41] <Tom_itx> all my cables are shielded now
[22:00:47] <furrywolf> that should be fine.
[22:00:48] <Tom_itx> even the stepper power
[22:01:11] <furrywolf> try putting some beefy pullups/pulldowns at the switch end, after verifying that the one that you switch to starts reading correctly.
[22:01:54] <Tom_itx> i will methodically check it tomorrow
[22:02:14] <Tom_itx> arm is giving out so i'm gonna go
[22:02:15] <zeeshan> https://www.lowes.ca/fluorescent-light-bulbs/ge-6-watt-t5-9-in-fluorescent-light-bulb_g1201693.html?ProductSlot=3
[22:02:16] <zeeshan> found it!!!!!!!!1
[22:02:36] <furrywolf> cyas
[22:03:16] <archivist> naja452, if the cutter is getting blunt at the end of a job forces are higher and stalling the motors more likely, is it only on one axis, a sign of a mechanical problem
[22:03:50] <furrywolf> naja452: is this a homemade machine?
[22:03:57] <naja452> I am cutting mdf currently so dulling of the cutter is not really a factor
[22:04:15] <furrywolf> zeeshan: are those hard to find? lol
[22:04:16] <naja452> nope, its a knee mill from the 60s that I converted to CNC
[22:04:20] <zeeshan> furrywolf: apparently man
[22:04:28] <zeeshan> walmart doesnt have em, home depot doesnt
[22:04:31] <zeeshan> canadiantire
[22:04:38] <zeeshan> if its not at these 3 stores, i consider em rare :P
[22:04:55] <Tom_itx> oh.. it was doing it with the pendant unplugged too so it's something on the 7i47 board probably
[22:04:57] <furrywolf> naja452: ok, so you can be pretty sure the head is square with the table, then. :)
[22:05:11] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: have them configured as outputs for something? lol
[22:05:32] <naja452> Yup :) the whole thing is pretty darn square
[22:05:35] <furrywolf> oh, with the 7i90 entirely unplugged?
[22:05:36] <furrywolf> or am I mis-interpreting your layout?
[22:05:44] <zeeshan> furrywolf: his arm is gone
[22:05:47] <zeeshan> dont make the poor guy type
[22:05:48] <zeeshan> :P
[22:05:59] <archivist> naja452, is the spindle fast enough for a small bit
[22:06:16] <furrywolf> naja452: what size steppers did you use?
[22:06:18] <archivist> is the material moving
[22:06:21] <naja452> stock no, the vfd gets it to 10,000 though
[22:06:24] <furrywolf> naja452: and are you getting any realtime errors?
[22:06:26] <Tom_itx> 7i90 alone is fine
[22:06:50] <archivist> you dont get realtime errors on a stepper cogging
[22:07:16] <naja452> I'm fairly new to CNC, Im not sure waht you mean by realtime errors
[22:07:29] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: hrmm, I must be stupid, then, because I thought the 7i47 was the rs422 board, and the 7i90 was the one you actually connected things to...
[22:08:03] <furrywolf> naja452: does linuxcnc pop up a big box saying realtime error either when you start it or when you run your code? I'm going to guess not, since you'd probably know what it was, then. :)
[22:08:22] <archivist> naja452, a realtime error shows as a message on screen
[22:08:37] <naja452> nope, no errors, only "line 11 out of limits bla bla bla"
[22:08:51] <naja452> thats my fault though
[22:09:59] <furrywolf> what size steppers did you use?
[22:10:03] <archivist> accelerating too fast is a common reason and a top speed setting too high are reasons for stepper cogging too
[22:10:13] <naja452> Nema 23 I think?
[22:10:28] <naja452> rated at like 280oz/in?
[22:10:29] <furrywolf> steppers losing steps generally makes a pretty distinctive noise, but I don't know how to describe it other than the sound of a stepper losing steps. :)
[22:10:34] <furrywolf> ... on a knee mill?
[22:11:01] <archivist> they may well struggle on a big machine
[22:11:08] <furrywolf> I used nema 34 at 900oz/in for my tabletop mill.
[22:11:14] <archivist> are they geared down
[22:11:48] <furrywolf> is this a tabletop machine, or something that needs a forklift to move?
[22:12:00] <naja452> That might be it, I had some 34s but no drivers that could do 7 amp. on the 4amps
[22:12:12] <naja452> oh, it needs a tow truck
[22:12:21] <naja452> it weighs 4.2 tons
[22:12:23] <furrywolf> ok... so you're probably losing steps from having undersized motors.
[22:12:33] <furrywolf> you can try turning your axis maximum speeds and acceleration down
[22:13:05] <furrywolf> yeah. you don't use nema23 steppers for a 4.2ton mill. nema23 is what people with plastic 3d printers use, or little sherline mini-mills.
[22:13:26] <furrywolf> I've lost steps on the nema23 steppers on my sherline, and it weighs 25lbs. :)
[22:13:53] <furrywolf> for a 4.2ton machine, I'd suggest spending the money for a servo setup.
[22:13:55] <naja452> fair enough, Guess I just have to drop the money on more drivers.
[22:14:20] <archivist> or gear the stepper to screw to gain more torque
[22:14:28] <furrywolf> that's bigger than stepper territory. even with some good nema34 motors, you'll still end up with really slow rapids.
[22:14:32] <naja452> what does a servo setup start around, just vuague ballpark
[22:14:41] <furrywolf> naja452: way too much. :)
[22:14:47] <furrywolf> I've never bought one, out of my budget.
[22:15:17] <fenn> i'm going to toss out the hypothesis that it's the power supply that is undersized, and the all-axis move is drawing more than the power supply can ... supply
[22:15:18] <archivist> servo is the right way on larger mills
[22:15:23] <naja452> Is the real benafit just closed loop?
[22:15:40] <furrywolf> I have name-brand nema34 900oz-in steppers, running at 9A/phase, on my chinese lathe/mill combo tabletop machine.
[22:15:51] <archivist> far more acceleration available usually
[22:15:57] <furrywolf> and it's still too slow!
[22:16:14] <furrywolf> steppers are a lot faster and higher torque. you get both at once.
[22:16:24] <Tom_itx> phone update fckd up all my settings....
[22:16:28] <fenn> wait, are they really nema23 steppers?
[22:16:46] <furrywolf> for now, rerun the config, and set your maximum speed lower, and your maximum acceleration much lower.
[22:16:48] <archivist> the available overload during acceleration with servo is useful, none available on a stepper
[22:16:55] <naja452> ok, well. I have things to think about. Thanks!
[22:17:22] <furrywolf> the torque available from a stepper is much higher at low speeds, so if you limit your speeds and acceleration, you're less likely to lose steps.
[22:17:45] <archivist> the feedback in a servo system tells you when a axis could not keep up
[22:17:53] <furrywolf> are you moving a quill or moving the knee up and down?
[22:18:07] <naja452> quill
[22:18:24] <furrywolf> ok, so at least you're not trying to move a half ton with one of those steppers. :)
[22:18:38] <fenn> i am amazed it works at all
[22:19:00] <fenn> naja452: what is the number of steps per inch? or what is your gear ratio
[22:19:31] <fenn> just curiosity
[22:19:38] <naja452> Well, the ways are all pristine, I could drag a 1/2" cutter 1/2" deep in AL turning the screws with my fingers
[22:20:01] <naja452> 200steps/in
[22:20:38] <fenn> it's direct drive on a 1TPI screw?
[22:20:39] <furrywolf> naja452: a lot of it is acceleration... the tables are heavy, and the little motors can't get them up to speed quickly. setting your acceleration lower might fix your issue.
[22:21:27] <furrywolf> naja452: when you go to reset the maximum speed and acceleration, use the axis test feature to run each axis back and forth. see how high you can get it, then make sure the values you set as the maximum are substantially lower.
[22:21:31] <naja452> its more like 1/4 per turn
[22:21:55] <archivist> then 800 steps per inch
[22:22:21] <archivist> still coarse
[22:22:48] <furrywolf> which makes it even harder on the motors
[22:25:49] <archivist> at the upper torque limits, couplings start to slip on motors too
[22:26:23] <furrywolf> I ground flats on everything for mine. heh.
[22:27:35] <naja452> Ill have to put flats in mine eventually
[22:28:08] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64MB1V07Clg I need this fourth axis tombstone action in my life LOL
[22:28:15] <furrywolf> yes, at the same time you're installing much larger motors.
[22:28:23] <furrywolf> don't they look tiny stuck to a machine like that? :)
[22:28:49] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: have a pic of one of your servo motors handy?
[22:29:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan:
[22:30:51] <naja452> Yeah, they do I guess.
[22:31:25] <XXCoder> blackout wheeee
[22:35:20] <XXCoder> so, what did I miss lol
[22:56:49] <just_pink> Someone know about sort midi sounds for notification?
[23:03:05] <fenn> nice, deburring brush in the toolchanger, that's smart
[23:12:49] <just_pink> fenn: I think I've show here aluminum parts that I'm brashed on the cnc machune,
[23:18:12] <PetefromTn_> I saw that too pretty cool I would like to know the name of that tool or where you can get one..
[23:25:55] <just_pink> PetefromTn_: I'm using 4" black and decker brush from walmart
[23:26:46] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: once saw one machine that used dermel as tool
[23:27:06] <XXCoder> used spindle to angle it and dermel to drill side holes
[23:27:16] <XXCoder> how inception-like
[23:30:46] <PetefromTn_> for a deburring tool?
[23:32:14] <PetefromTn_> I have seen guys in the shops I work in create custom CNC turned mandrels that held stacked 3M red scotch brite pads for certain work/projects but that is different from that brush in the video that MUST have been some sort of abrasive bristle or abrasive impregnated bristles or something to work at all..
[23:33:08] <PetefromTn_> or are you guys just talking about chip removal or something?
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