#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-07-19

[00:00:02] <XXCoder> one guy here makes em in fact
[00:00:13] <XXCoder> maybe not that exact website owner but yeah
[00:00:21] <justanotheruser> they make watches or CNC mills that can do that?
[00:00:44] <XXCoder> dunno if it was for a watch
[00:00:46] <XXCoder> hey furrywolf
[00:00:54] <XXCoder> but it sure was tiny gear
[00:00:55] <furrywolf> heyas
[00:00:57] <justanotheruser> I see
[00:01:10] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: though it needed small machine
[00:01:21] <XXCoder> I bet ya large commerical engine would have diffulties lol
[00:01:38] <justanotheruser> any idea what DIY CNC could accomplish that?
[00:01:58] <XXCoder> dunno but resolution need to be good im sure.
[00:03:05] <furrywolf> what're you trying to do?
[00:03:07] <justanotheruser> I see this for $8k lol http://www.robotshop.com/en/mdx-40a-high-precision-cnc-milling-machine.html
[00:03:16] <justanotheruser> furrywolf: you missed it, 00:33 < justanotheruser> Is a CNC mill that can make small watch gears like this realistic? https://web.archive.org/web/20141012085840/http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/WatchNet-5_files/WN5.htm
[00:03:19] <archivist> my 5 axis is home brew
[00:03:35] <archivist> and it makes watch size parts
[00:03:59] <XXCoder> arch you can make whole watch?
[00:04:01] <justanotheruser> archivist: how much time and money did it cost to make?
[00:04:09] <XXCoder> Im pretty sure its quite tough to do.
[00:04:29] <furrywolf> archivist is probably the tiny gear expert here.
[00:04:43] <justanotheruser> great
[00:04:45] <furrywolf> I saw a webpage a whole ago on making tiny plastic gears...
[00:05:04] <archivist> some of my machine is re purposed scrap
[00:06:07] <XXCoder> heh I hate project howtos that assume you got pile of junk
[00:06:11] <archivist> only steppers, collets and a rotary were bought new
[00:06:29] <XXCoder> "this project just cost $20! just need ($10000 item) found around your backyard!
[00:06:33] <archivist> you can visit scrap yards :)
[00:06:42] <XXCoder> actually no
[00:06:50] <XXCoder> no scrap yards so far I tried to find em
[00:06:59] <XXCoder> actually one I think, I need to go see.
[00:07:09] <archivist> my column was from a terrible lathe
[00:08:02] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: I'd expect most small machines to be able to do make parts like that, as long as you follow appropriate backlash-avoiding procedures.
[00:08:34] <archivist> my gcode is unidirectional to avoid backlash
[00:08:57] <justanotheruser> backlash avoiding procedures?
[00:09:05] <justanotheruser> like?
[00:09:22] <justanotheruser> archivist: is there some design it's based off of that I can look at?
[00:09:25] <archivist> I machine something measure, remake to get a good one
[00:10:19] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: always making your cuts in the same direction, after backing off far enough and reversing to take up the backlash.
[00:10:32] <archivist> it is a plain 3 axis vertical mill + rotaries you one need for for most clock/watch work
[00:11:13] <furrywolf> and being prepared to toss a few parts trying to get it right. :)
[00:11:22] <archivist> I even add a backoff and return to the rotary
[00:12:26] <archivist> shows the early ideas and source lathe(column and spindle) http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=cnc
[00:13:19] <archivist> got the XY from a toolmakers setting machine from a local bankruptcy auction
[00:13:38] <XXCoder> just read that site
[00:13:39] <XXCoder> amazing
[00:13:53] <justanotheruser> yes it is pretty thorough
[00:14:02] <justanotheruser> I worry about precision when I DIY
[00:14:10] <archivist> I sort of blogged it as http://www.archivist.info/cnc/
[00:14:11] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: non-arcive version seem to work
[00:14:28] <XXCoder> http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/index.html
[00:15:15] <justanotheruser> archivist: your website looks a lot like this watch making resource I fonud http://www.csparks.com/watchmaking/
[00:15:18] <justanotheruser> XXCoder: nope!
[00:15:31] <XXCoder> interesting, loaded fine here
[00:15:42] <archivist> worksformetoo
[00:15:45] <justanotheruser> XXCoder: did you go to the page I actuall had archived?
[00:15:53] <XXCoder> a sec
[00:16:20] <XXCoder> that page has broken images
[00:16:28] <justanotheruser> yep
[00:16:36] <justanotheruser> not in the archive though :)
[00:17:34] <archivist> his technique is similar to mine anyway
[00:18:14] <XXCoder> arch your website is cheap hosting or what?
[00:18:23] <XXCoder> been looking for cheap email server and website
[00:18:25] <archivist> self hosting :)
[00:18:29] <XXCoder> oh
[00:18:58] <archivist> pay an amount for fixed IP and then you can do what you want
[00:19:23] <archivist> have a friend host backup dns and you for him
[00:19:36] <justanotheruser> archivist: is this your home? http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stageone/P1050044.JPG
[00:20:17] <archivist> that was the "shop carpet" at a previous job
[00:20:30] <justanotheruser> ah
[00:20:32] <justanotheruser> its really gross
[00:20:34] <archivist> worked at a clockmakers
[00:21:13] <archivist> was fed up making gears by hand, stated making the cnc
[00:21:29] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: for backlash, imagine you're drilling four holes in a square... if you just do it the obvious way, just moving from one hole to the next, when you change direction, some of the movement gets lost in the machine's backlash, and you end up with holes too close together. instead, you intentionally overshoot then move backwards every time, approaching the holes in the same direction on both x and y.
[00:21:53] <furrywolf> this way the holes are correctly spaced relative to each other, with the backlash only moving all four holes the same amount.
[00:22:01] <archivist> machines backlash and the machines flex
[00:22:45] <archivist> unidirectional fixes most of both
[00:23:35] <XXCoder> I guess motors with encoders can make machine more accurate
[00:23:46] <XXCoder> while steppers dont have it
[00:23:53] <furrywolf> XXCoder: no, most of the inaccuracy is after the motors. steppers are rather accurate.
[00:24:00] <XXCoder> ahh
[00:24:05] <archivist> justanotheruser, better images end up on http://gears.archivist.info/
[00:24:39] <furrywolf> backlash occours in leadscrews and in the ways. slop in the ways can also cause the part to be rotated a slightly different angle depending on which way you're moving.
[00:24:52] <XXCoder> ballscrews has less backlash?
[00:25:25] <archivist> less, only the better ones have 0 backlash
[00:25:26] <justanotheruser> archivist: how much did all this set you back
[00:25:54] <XXCoder> nice since mine uses ballscrews :)
[00:26:16] <furrywolf> yours uses chinese ballscrews, which probably have about as much backlash as an acme leadscrew. :P
[00:26:17] <archivist> justanotheruser, I was not counting but not too much, a few hundred pounds possibly
[00:26:23] <justanotheruser> archivist: only?
[00:26:47] <justanotheruser> furrywolf: the movement from one hole to the next causes the misalignment, or...
[00:27:47] <justanotheruser> archivist: how does it handle large cuts?
[00:28:19] <archivist> main cost was steppers, drivers, then collets, then 100 for B (A was borrowed) and another hundred for small stuff like collets
[00:28:53] <archivist> it does not handle large cuts
[00:29:43] <justanotheruser> what dimensions can it handle?
[00:30:22] <archivist> I cheat and hang off a rotary to work on larger parts
[00:30:32] <justanotheruser> :P
[00:30:59] <archivist> its had xy 60mm by 90mm travels originally
[00:31:08] * furrywolf doesn't like finnicky little parts, and prefers big heavy things
[00:31:16] <archivist> now it is 90 by 200 ish
[00:31:47] <archivist> been modified a few times along the way
[00:33:15] <justanotheruser> is there a design constraint that makes large dimensions and high precision combined more costly than the sum of the individual costs?
[00:33:50] <archivist> I used an ebay secondhand ballscrew to replace the short 60mm travel, turned the X 90 deg to make a new y added ball slide X
[00:34:40] <archivist> high precision can just be clever thinking on a worn machine
[00:35:56] <archivist> if you are used to using a worn manual, you know the basic errors and why you use unidirectional machining
[00:37:58] <archivist> so a large machine can be used but the max spindle speed likely too slow for small work
[00:40:10] <archivist> I had the advantage of a manual workshop to make all the stepper adapters
[00:44:22] <furrywolf> I don't want to ever work on anything small enough to need jeweled bearings... I like double cone bearings with a preload nut. :P
[00:44:23] <archivist> larger=more solid less flex, flex is one of the worst errors on the cheaper import junk
[00:45:24] <archivist> I had this around me when making it http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works/
[00:46:48] <archivist> some came home when the place shut down
[00:52:07] <XXCoder> man
[00:52:10] <XXCoder> thats so messy
[00:52:13] <XXCoder> seriouslyu
[00:52:22] <XXCoder> it makes my work there sparky clean
[00:52:44] <furrywolf> ... you call that messy?
[00:52:51] <XXCoder> and my previous internship like shop ran by Mr. Clean.
[00:52:58] <archivist> it was piled in there, the ex boss dug out the basement to make more space
[00:53:56] <archivist> those basement pics were after I tidied it up a bit :)
[00:54:07] <XXCoder> furrywolf: ummyes. lol
[00:59:14] <furrywolf> if you call that messy, you wouldn't set foot in the shop I like here.
[01:00:38] <XXCoder> lol
[01:00:59] <XXCoder> my shop probably will end up messy.
[01:01:28] <archivist> I just took a couple of days to find 3/4 of my bench in the garage
[01:02:03] <XXCoder> though of boss catches you leaving messy station on exit, theres bit warning
[01:02:12] <XXCoder> with few repeats guys on trouble
[01:08:32] <furrywolf> wow. just glanced again at that watchmaking page pasted above... that thing is fucking HUGE.
[01:08:40] <furrywolf> that's not a watch. it's a clock with a strap.
[01:08:52] <XXCoder> from what I see its old style
[01:08:58] <XXCoder> pretty bit
[01:08:59] <XXCoder> big
[01:12:42] <furrywolf> https://web.archive.org/web/20130121062452im_/http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8707/image0222wo.jpg it's solid silver filled with solid brass. it must weigh as much as twenty normal watches. lol
[01:13:59] <XXCoder> lol probably
[01:14:09] <XXCoder> he said it has +2 second each day
[01:14:13] <XXCoder> so not exactly accurate
[01:14:25] <XXCoder> but hey it will run long time. no dang batteries
[01:15:35] <furrywolf> I haven't used a watch since the flip phone was invented.
[01:15:43] <XXCoder> me either
[01:16:00] <furrywolf> (the big motorola ones with 5 nicd AAs strapped to the back...)
[01:17:58] <XXCoder> lol my first was motorola pager
[01:18:01] <XXCoder> perfect for deaf
[01:18:15] <XXCoder> it used an aaa battery per month. long life
[01:18:26] <furrywolf> 2 seconds/day is pretty accurate for a mechanical movement
[01:18:30] <XXCoder> my phone has more power and lasts 1/30 as long
[01:18:51] <XXCoder> cool
[01:19:48] <furrywolf> the most accurate timekeeping device I've ever used is, however, the clock in my '84 subaru. twice a year, I add or subtract an hour for daylight saving time. that's it. I think it's accurate to within a few seconds per year. probably just luck of draw, but still...
[01:20:16] <XXCoder> most accurate so far is one second per billion years
[01:20:30] <XXCoder> perfect for asecended beings
[01:20:55] <XXCoder> I wonder if future watches would take in account of all and any gravoty changes
[01:21:06] <XXCoder> so it stays accurate for age of universe
[01:21:21] <XXCoder> yet works in any spaceships without adjustment lol
[01:22:01] <furrywolf> I'd suspect most modern watch movements are pretty gravity-independent.
[01:22:15] <furrywolf> unlike regulator clocks. :)
[01:22:20] <XXCoder> I know, I meant changes of local gravity do affect time
[01:22:34] <XXCoder> deep space has bit faster time than down here on earth
[01:22:45] <archivist> see george daniels escapement that averages out the errors
[01:23:08] <XXCoder> time near black hole is pretty darn slow
[01:23:40] <archivist> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Daniels_%28watchmaker%29
[01:24:22] <furrywolf> I don't think they make watches designed for relativistic space travel conditions, no.
[01:24:39] <XXCoder> yeah definitely not.. for now
[01:24:59] <XXCoder> I bet early ones would work with changes from earth to space, for spacers
[01:25:07] <XXCoder> then after that dunno
[01:25:50] * furrywolf considers mechanical watches obsolete anyway
[01:26:02] <archivist> anteeeeek
[01:26:09] <XXCoder> I love em
[01:26:14] <XXCoder> too bad I never owned one.
[01:26:19] <archivist> to be fixed and cared for
[01:27:51] <furrywolf> and I certainly can't ever imagine wearing a 1lb brick on my wrist like the one above. lol
[01:27:54] <archivist> I often use a pocket watch when driving the steam engine
[02:04:43] <furrywolf> argh... reading about the toyota "unattended acceleration" lawsuits, etc... the car HAS A KEY. and a TRANSMISSION SHIFT MECHANISM. either fucking one can stop power being applied to the wheels. and yet people let their vehicles reach 100mph and crash? natural selection!
[02:05:28] <XXCoder> I would shift to netural till it slows down enough
[02:05:31] <XXCoder> then use grass
[02:05:39] <furrywolf> the brakes still work fine
[02:05:42] <XXCoder> then finally power it down after using park
[02:05:50] <furrywolf> they just complain they take 175lbs of force to overcome the engine
[02:06:03] <XXCoder> oh just nueral then brake
[02:06:07] <XXCoder> opretty simple
[02:06:11] <furrywolf> yes
[02:06:19] <XXCoder> though more advanced models well you cant
[02:06:32] <XXCoder> theres hack to disable brake
[02:06:33] <furrywolf> and yet 86 people have apparantly died because shifting into neutral or turning off they key were advanced concepts.
[02:09:24] <XXCoder> selection can be cruel
[02:09:25] <XXCoder> and fair
[02:09:57] <Deejay> moin
[02:10:08] <XXCoder> hey
[02:10:24] <Deejay> hi XXCoder
[02:10:31] <XXCoder> wow.
[02:10:38] <XXCoder> linux backup solutions seem to sucjk
[02:10:42] <XXCoder> or am I missing something
[02:11:03] <CaptHindsight> so at 88 mph not all cars jump the time barrier!?
[02:11:16] <XXCoder> need time capactor
[02:11:22] <CaptHindsight> ah
[02:11:25] <XXCoder> flux? forgot what tht thing was called
[02:11:35] <CaptHindsight> flux cap, sure
[02:11:44] <CaptHindsight> S T U P I D
[02:11:56] <Deejay> in german it was the flux compensator
[02:11:57] <XXCoder> hitting sauce bit hard
[02:12:40] <CaptHindsight> not fluxcompensatortimejumpsmaker?
[02:12:50] <furrywolf> lol
[02:12:55] <XXCoder> lol
[02:19:52] <furrywolf> "The Camry's braking distances with a purposely stuck accelerator were also shorter than that of the Ford Taurus' regular stopping distance." LOL
[02:21:00] <XXCoder> heh I drove a car that had 3 times that
[02:21:04] <XXCoder> bad brakes
[02:21:14] <XXCoder> well problem was solved for me
[02:21:28] <XXCoder> guy drove 40+ mpoh out of parking lot and totaled it
[02:21:43] <CaptHindsight> back in the 80's Era laundry detergent changed the instruction from "add one cap full per load" to "add two cap full per load". I'm still outraged
[02:21:57] <XXCoder> capt thats old.
[02:22:02] <XXCoder> pop fizz pop fizz
[02:22:21] <CaptHindsight> so outrage does get stale?
[02:22:39] <XXCoder> nope
[02:22:42] <CaptHindsight> you kids and your outrage, when i was a kid....
[02:22:49] <XXCoder> greedy bastards is always greedy
[02:33:20] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: I bet ERA changed it so soap was half strength
[02:35:35] <archivist> but kept the price the same
[02:36:08] <furrywolf> speaking of the government ruining things... I found a bottle of electric motor cleaner at a hardware store. it has a big warning that it's illegal to use it on anything other than energized electrical equipment. apparantly there's some exemption to the law that lets you still use proper chlorinated solvents as long as you say it's only for energized electrical equipment.
[02:36:10] <XXCoder> arch yeah
[02:54:07] <XXCoder> heh http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/photoshop/2/7/0/384270.jpg?v=1
[02:58:56] <furrywolf> ... ok?
[02:59:20] <XXCoder> just tangent off my comment earlier
[02:59:24] <XXCoder> pop fizz pop fizz
[02:59:29] <furrywolf> why would anyone care about this movie or how special effects for it were done?
[03:04:05] <archivist> I must say the starrett web site is going downhill
[03:04:39] <archivist> all marketing and little content
[03:04:56] <XXCoder> yeah couldnt find any info last time I checked
[03:05:11] <XXCoder> I recently got new starret edge finder, its nice
[03:05:17] <XXCoder> shop ones are quite worn
[03:06:03] <archivist> I have an old 1" round micrometer setting standard, want to know its accuracy and roundness
[03:09:26] <furrywolf> bbl
[03:11:45] <XXCoder> its around round, and roughly a inch. is that enough? ;) jk
[03:12:46] <archivist> not if I want to calibrate my probe off it :)
[03:12:55] <XXCoder> lol yea :)
[03:13:10] <furrywolf> not enough for any woman I know...
[03:13:13] <furrywolf> bbl
[03:14:17] <archivist> some probe calibration use a ball on the table that the probe measures
[03:15:44] <archivist> contemplating using a 30mm one I have like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MUSHROOM-HEAD-20mm-Styli-PROBE-20mm-diameter-ZEISS-RENISHAW-CMM-Stylus-/271906950583
[03:16:49] <XXCoder> you has probe mesturing thing?
[03:16:55] <XXCoder> that double rod thing
[03:17:05] <XXCoder> and Surface to put em on
[03:17:22] <XXCoder> or maybe use other tools to confirm accuracy
[03:19:57] <archivist> I am intending to make a probe
[03:22:15] <archivist> I have http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=probe+pd but far to big and has poor contacts
[03:23:40] <archivist> also the force needed to break contact varies a lot with direction, a designed in error
[03:25:48] <XXCoder> nice
[03:26:01] <XXCoder> I found a probe that would work with my cnc router lol 43 mm
[03:26:09] <XXCoder> but dunno if it would ever be useful
[04:47:30] <XXCoder> any of you melted and cast alum?
[04:48:16] <archivist> cast lead a number of times
[04:48:32] <XXCoder> yeech
[04:48:39] <XXCoder> might go for pewter for fun though
[04:48:54] <XXCoder> can make fun stuff since its so easy to melt it can be cast in wood.
[04:49:08] <archivist> clock weights
[04:49:37] <archivist> I used plaster for lead
[04:49:53] <XXCoder> lol
[04:50:12] <XXCoder> with cnc router you could make funky stuff with lead since it solidifes fine in lwood cast
[04:50:25] <archivist> plaster board for rectangular clock weights
[04:50:52] <XXCoder> cool
[04:50:53] <XXCoder> HMM
[04:51:01] <XXCoder> trying to find collets for 6mm
[04:52:09] <archivist> collet form then size
[04:52:19] <XXCoder> do er8 fit in 6 mm?
[04:53:54] <XXCoder> "Max Ourte-dia:25mm"
[04:54:02] <XXCoder> not sure what that mean
[04:54:12] <XXCoder> think it means outer
[04:54:24] <archivist> er8 seems to go up to 5mm
[04:54:47] <XXCoder> hmm one that comes with it is 6 mm
[04:54:48] <archivist> er11 for a better range of sizes
[04:54:54] <XXCoder> and it looks like it can fit more
[04:55:00] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/500W-Air-Cooled-Miling-motor-AC-220V-Spindle-Motor-with-6mm-collet/1903872955.html
[04:55:09] <XXCoder> but its not clear what collets can fit it
[04:56:28] <archivist> some of the routers have their own collets
[04:56:59] <XXCoder> geez hope it dont mean im limited to only 6mm
[04:57:07] <archivist> you get the size to suit standard woodworking tooling
[04:57:59] <archivist> may have 3mm 1/4" and 1/8" as extras/spares
[04:59:22] <XXCoder> mine only comes with tool, 3 grinder tools
[04:59:26] <XXCoder> missing one tool
[04:59:31] <XXCoder> I think
[04:59:39] <XXCoder> dont really care about that
[05:03:00] <XXCoder> brb
[05:07:08] <XXCoder> outer dim seem to be 10
[05:07:09] <XXCoder> mm
[05:07:54] <archivist> its the outer of the thinnest part of the collet that matters
[05:08:20] <XXCoder> 9.5 mm approx
[05:10:35] <archivist> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets
[05:10:39] <XXCoder> the bottom is 10mm but it strunks a little short a bit then it flares out
[05:10:59] <XXCoder> flared out part is 12mm
[05:15:51] <XXCoder> from what I see er8 is too small
[05:15:55] <XXCoder> er11 maybe too big
[05:16:29] <archivist> er11 is 11.5mm od
[05:16:46] <XXCoder> lemme take a pic a sec
[05:20:14] <XXCoder> http://picpaste.com/pics/collet-tPXzVcdw.1437299835.jpg
[05:21:29] <archivist> ah, special to them
[05:21:43] <XXCoder> http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Picture-41.png
[05:21:50] <XXCoder> almost like last one
[05:22:52] <archivist> more like some collets I have seen elsewhere
[05:23:13] <XXCoder> problem is I need other sizes
[05:23:20] <XXCoder> 6 mm isnt quite enough
[05:23:30] <XXCoder> though I can find tools that size.
[05:23:49] <archivist> its is a distant relation of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ward-Herbert-Emi-Mec-Collet-2046-/380166455342
[05:24:58] <XXCoder> I think it does say 25 mm mx outer dimension
[05:25:24] <XXCoder> but then collet I has maxs out at 12 mm
[05:25:34] <archivist> schaublin also did a similar collet
[05:28:18] <archivist> you could make some collets
[05:29:09] <XXCoder> not without tools or lathe :)
[05:29:48] <XXCoder> though many projects I can work with existing 6 mm collet
[05:30:07] <XXCoder> forgot what o with / across it mean? its where it says 25 mm
[05:30:27] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROUTER-COLLET-CHUCK-REDUCER-1-2-TO-1-4-/331321578955
[05:30:47] <archivist> found that with a router collet search
[05:30:49] <XXCoder> ah! diameter
[05:31:29] <XXCoder> I'm not sure why it says 25 mm when 12 mm fits in it fine
[05:31:41] <archivist> with that search comes reducers too
[05:31:55] <XXCoder> outer diameter including "nut" that hold collet in I guess
[05:32:41] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Steel-Router-Collets-10mm-1-1/dp/B003S7RA0U
[05:34:06] <archivist> looks more like yours http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trend-CLT-T4-8-8mm-Collet-for-T4-Router-/351302877716
[05:34:18] <XXCoder> t4 HMM maybe
[05:35:03] <XXCoder> http://www.dewaltownersgroup.com/jc/TrendT4/TrendT4Collets.JPG
[05:35:08] <XXCoder> looks close
[05:35:11] <archivist> that seller has loads of different ones
[05:35:19] <XXCoder> trying to find diagram
[05:36:22] <XXCoder> heyyy think I found something
[05:36:56] <XXCoder> http://www.joebrown.org.uk/wp/?p=8463
[05:40:16] <XXCoder> I wonder if it can be retrofitted with er11
[05:40:29] <XXCoder> wish I had those so I can test lol
[05:41:31] <archivist> reducers can be bought too
[05:42:57] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trend-CLT-SLV-6395-Collet-Sleeve-6-35mm-to-9-5mm-/391043781270
[05:43:19] <XXCoder> not sure how reducer work
[05:43:30] <XXCoder> it says redcer but listing always say small first then bug
[05:43:32] <XXCoder> big
[05:45:22] <archivist> he does put it in the wrong order but has 19 variations
[05:45:28] <XXCoder> nice
[05:45:37] <XXCoder> been trying to find t4 trend collet dimensions
[05:45:39] <XXCoder> but no luck
[05:46:23] <archivist> measure yours
[05:46:43] <XXCoder> well I know mine, its 10 mm, strunk ti 9.5 mm, then expand to 12 mm
[05:46:49] <XXCoder> but I wanna know if t4 trend matches
[05:47:24] <XXCoder> http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/category/Router%20Accs%20%20Jigs,%20Collets%20%20Extensions/1
[05:47:35] <archivist> or go to a local woodworking tool supplier who has something like that in stock to measure/compare
[05:47:44] <XXCoder> probably have to yeah
[05:47:47] <XXCoder> bring my router
[05:47:53] <XXCoder> do they have ER collets?
[05:47:57] <XXCoder> if so I can test that too
[05:49:00] <archivist> I dont think er is so common on router spindles
[05:49:14] <XXCoder> yeah doubted it
[05:49:20] <XXCoder> not for something like mine
[05:49:39] <XXCoder> I gonna evenually update it to actual spindle so it uses er11 or something
[05:49:58] <XXCoder> I need 53 mm holder for that but cant do it yet, spindle and stuff is couple hundred bucks
[05:50:37] <archivist> my spindle is a lathe headstock :)
[05:51:06] <XXCoder> http://www.trenddirectuk.com/2608570108.html# odd
[05:51:17] <XXCoder> check it out, it has one similiar with mine and others
[05:53:02] <archivist> looks too specific to the bosch
[05:53:08] <XXCoder> yeah
[05:54:15] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Trend-CE-127635-Router-Extension/dp/B001UQ5P3U
[05:55:51] <archivist> http://www.trenddirectuk.com/clt-t4-6.html
[05:56:17] <XXCoder> yeah figured mine is like that. heyy it has diamgram? looking
[05:56:19] <archivist> slap them hard for that "drawing"
[05:56:42] <XXCoder> D is too small
[05:56:45] <XXCoder> mines 12
[05:56:52] <archivist> then you notice the other image is just a generic one we saw before
[05:57:07] <XXCoder> Specifications d= 6 mm
[05:57:15] <XXCoder> unless they meant hole inside :P
[05:57:34] <XXCoder> it dont even say what bore is, and I need that
[05:57:55] <archivist> that is the inside so should be what you have, they have others in the T4 series
[05:58:45] <XXCoder> dunno because diagram shows D as widest part
[05:58:52] <XXCoder> mines 12mm widest
[05:58:56] <XXCoder> while inside is 6mm
[05:59:58] <XXCoder> other has 8 mm but same picture
[06:00:02] <XXCoder> weird
[06:00:13] <XXCoder> well lemme do that math hack hold on
[06:00:36] <archivist> I complained on the contact form :)
[06:00:55] <XXCoder> ok assuming hole is 8 mm
[06:01:10] <XXCoder> sides seem 1/4 thickness compared to hole width
[06:01:14] <XXCoder> thats 12 wide mm
[06:03:55] <XXCoder> archivist: well it is probably t4
[06:04:00] <XXCoder> just hard to find!
[06:11:18] <XXCoder> actually I have a idea
[06:11:26] <XXCoder> maybe theres chuck that has shaft 6 mm lol
[06:13:55] <XXCoder> archivist: what exactly is "shank" is
[06:14:01] <XXCoder> the rod?
[06:14:09] <XXCoder> http://www.ctctools.biz/er11-6mm-x-50mm-straight-shank-chuck-d69/
[06:14:53] <XXCoder> "the shaft or stem of a tool or implement, in particular." yep
[06:17:53] * archivist returns from upstairs to see self answering
[06:18:17] <XXCoder> heh
[06:18:57] <archivist> I was searching for scraps to make probe
[06:19:08] <XXCoder> 6 mm shank chuck seemed good idea but dont find any so far execept for one
[06:19:16] <XXCoder> http://www.ctctools.biz/er11-6mm-x-50mm-straight-shank-chuck-d69/
[06:19:39] <archivist> 6mm too small for sensible use
[06:19:53] <XXCoder> I know, but same time I arent milling metals
[06:19:57] <XXCoder> for now anyway
[06:20:37] <XXCoder> this is larger 8 mm one https://cdn6.bigcommerce.com/s-b32ir/products/977/images/1051/D66__45893.1411034804.1280.1280.jpg?c=2
[06:21:08] <XXCoder> its also too long, z would be all way up and it would be still poking surface! lol
[06:21:34] <archivist> I have one I use as a grinder spindle
[06:21:42] <XXCoder> http://www.ctcengineering.hk/CTC%20Tools/Images/Product%20Photos/D69.jpg
[06:21:50] <XXCoder> I dont think I ever seen that chuck type
[06:21:58] <XXCoder> oh wait is that er8?
[06:22:15] <XXCoder> with shaft of 6 mm
[06:22:31] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/showresult.php?prog=1&srcprog=searchv13.php&srcdata=title&Type=PD&Accn_no=9151&subject=25939
[06:22:33] <XXCoder> it says M type clamping nut
[06:23:05] <XXCoder> holy cow
[06:23:08] <XXCoder> that was bad sneezes
[06:23:21] <XXCoder> my right arm hurts lol
[06:23:56] <XXCoder> hmm looks like its set to grind that tool
[06:23:58] <XXCoder> "saw" thingy
[06:24:19] <archivist> homebrew cutter grinder
[06:24:36] <archivist> a fugly special
[06:24:37] <XXCoder> nice
[06:24:46] <XXCoder> well as long as it works lol
[06:26:51] <archivist> saw a few and than made a fugly http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=tool+grinder
[06:28:38] <XXCoder> cool
[06:28:42] <XXCoder> lowes has nothing. lol
[06:28:48] <XXCoder> nothing 6 mm at all
[06:29:09] <XXCoder> hoped for local trip for faster speed. lemme check harbor freight
[06:32:16] <XXCoder> no luck
[06:32:18] <XXCoder> well
[06:32:24] <XXCoder> guess gonna go sleep. night
[06:34:55] <Deejay> nite XXCoder
[07:20:38] <LikeVinyl> madafacas
[07:20:40] <LikeVinyl> \m/
[11:06:15] <furrywolf> doing some planning here... should I bother making my spindles software-reversible, or just plan on that being something I so rarely need that I can just flip the drum switches by hand?
[11:25:00] <furrywolf> and, on a related topic, if I only have software on/off, can I set up linuxcnc to pause when a direction change is requested (for rigid tapping) and wait for me to flip the switch and un-pause it?
[11:32:51] <JT-Shop> I would think that would be very awkward
[11:38:17] <furrywolf> but given as I plan on not doing much rigid tapping, probably less time than wiring up non-manual reverse controls in place of the perfectly working mechanical switches...
[11:44:14] <archivist> I dont think rigid tapping knows how to wait for you
[11:45:31] <furrywolf> it'd be the spindle reverse process that'd need to know.
[11:46:21] <furrywolf> it already would have to stop the spindle, wait for it to stop, then turn it back on in the other direction... it'd just need to wait for a manual input rather than a set time...
[11:49:48] <furrywolf> (if you don't wait for it to stop, and try reversing quickly, the motor happily keeps on going the same direction)
[11:50:13] <archivist> remember its tracking Z that would be a disaster
[11:50:37] <archivist> and looking for the reversal on the encoder
[11:50:58] <furrywolf> yes. I'd need to use either tap through the material or have holes deep enough to leave room for the spindle to slow down without bottoming out...
[11:51:43] <Tom_itx> furrywolf i went for the controlled reverse on mine
[11:51:53] <archivist> I am not going to ever do rigid tapping until the spindle is fully automated
[11:52:23] <Tom_itx> the axis waits for the spindle
[11:52:27] <Tom_itx> so it might work
[11:53:11] <furrywolf> yes, I know the rigid tapping part will work... I'm not sure about the reverse logic. I'd need it to stop the spindle then pause, waiting for me to signal that I've flipped the reverse switch, then turn the spindle back on.
[11:53:31] <Tom_itx> i would automate it
[11:53:47] <Tom_itx> also on mine i added a deadband during relay switching
[11:54:00] <Tom_itx> to save the relay contacts
[11:54:17] <furrywolf> for mine, it won't hurt the relay contacts... it'll just keep turning the same direction.
[11:54:59] <Tom_itx> using the stock control with logic required me to get the isolation board for it
[11:55:00] <archivist> that must not be allowed to happen
[11:55:23] <furrywolf> they're capacitor start motors where the start winding is opened after starting. if you reverse them at speed, they just keep going the same direction. no harm to them or your relays, but not a useful thing to happen either...
[11:55:34] <Tom_itx> furrywolf if you do that, you will also need one
[11:56:06] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/PDF/kbsi_240d_manual.pdf
[11:56:08] <archivist> must stop before reversal or you will crash the machine
[11:56:09] <Tom_itx> that
[11:56:22] <Tom_itx> the GND on the board floats
[11:56:34] <furrywolf> my plan for isolation was a DPDT relay. :P
[11:56:46] <Tom_itx> i also have the relay
[11:57:00] <Tom_itx> if you want spindle control from software you will need that board
[11:57:14] <Tom_itx> ebay has them
[11:57:41] <furrywolf> ... why would I need that? mesa board -> power transistor or small relay -> big relay.
[11:58:06] <Tom_itx> you probably either have this control: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/PDF/KBIC_Data_Sheet.pdf
[11:58:12] <Tom_itx> or this one: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/PDF/KBLC_data_sheet.pdf
[11:58:27] <furrywolf> I might even be able to find a DPDT relay with a low enough coil current to drive directly from the mesa board.
[11:58:36] <furrywolf> I don't have a control. I have a machine with a pair of rotary switches.
[11:58:47] <Tom_itx> mmmm
[11:59:05] <furrywolf> As I said, I have two capacitor start motors.
[11:59:08] <Tom_itx> full on rpm all the time?
[11:59:11] <furrywolf> yes
[11:59:45] <furrywolf> They're simple capacitor start / capacitor run motors, centrifical switch to disconnect the start winding, manual drum switch to reverse.
[11:59:46] <Tom_itx> you will need better control to do rigid tapping etc
[12:00:40] <furrywolf> my plan would be to adjust the belt drive for the lowest rpm, and make sure to tap through the material or to stop far enough before the bottom of a hole that the spindle spin-down time doesn't crash the tap into the bottom of the hole.
[12:00:46] <Tom_itx> i've been down the road with sherline spindle control
[12:00:51] <archivist> they stop far too slowly for tapping I think
[12:01:08] <furrywolf> (because broken taps suck!)
[12:01:20] <Tom_itx> i also put my pwm control thru a PID loop in lcnc
[12:01:40] <Tom_itx> much better control that way
[12:01:48] <furrywolf> my question wasn't about the suitability of single-phase capacitor-start induction motors to tapping... it's about whether I can make linuxcnc pause on a spindle direction change and wait for me to unpause it.
[12:01:57] <furrywolf> you can't pwm control capacitor start motors.
[12:02:18] <Tom_itx> you will just have to try it i suppose
[12:02:27] <Tom_itx> that was my approach
[12:03:52] <furrywolf> can classicladder pause g-code execution?
[12:08:12] <furrywolf> I could always just skip the canned tapping cycle and just do a G33 M5 M0 M4 G33 M5 M0 M3...
[12:18:47] <os1r1s> If you have a KBIC, why not control the RPM. They are so easy to run that way.
[12:21:58] <furrywolf> my motors can not be speed controlled.
[12:22:36] <os1r1s> Bummer
[12:22:37] <furrywolf> it's an inherent limitation of single-phase induction motors
[12:26:32] <fenn> you can use a VFD
[12:27:08] <furrywolf> Not for a single-phase capacitor start capacitor run motor.
[12:27:18] <fenn> hm ok
[12:27:54] <fenn> what's wrong with just adding a delay component to the spindle speed signal in HAL
[12:28:14] <furrywolf> the motor has a built-in centrifical switch that opens the start winding at full speed. if I try going substantially below full speed, then it'll re-engage the start winding. and capacitor run screws it up in other ways I can't remember right now. lol
[12:33:41] <furrywolf> http://www.leeson.com/TechnicalInformation/images/cap_s_r.gif the motor's wiring looks like that
[12:36:19] <furrywolf> I could probably do something complicated with removing the centrifical switch and making linuxcnc separately drive the start winding and a bunch of other crap, but by the time I do that, I might as well just get 3-phase motors.
[12:37:43] <furrywolf> and without the nice continuous rotating field of a 3-phase motor, attempting to lower the speed of a single-phase motor more than a small amount will probably just result in it slipping and stopping...
[12:39:54] <fenn> ah but you could drive it faster too
[12:40:40] <Tom_itx> oh btw, ltns fenn
[12:42:54] <fenn> what really "Last edited August 16, 2007 4:28 am by Fenn" http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?HAL first search result for "linuxcnc hal"
[12:43:11] <fenn> and a picture of the crapahalic gui
[12:53:09] <fenn> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/examples/spindle.html "To enable LinuxCNC to wait for the spindle to be at speed before executing a series of moves you need to set motion.spindle-at-speed to true when the spindle is at the commanded speed."
[12:55:12] <fenn> normally you would use an encoder but if you were overconfident you could fake out the spindle-at-speed signal with a delay or integ component
[12:57:46] <fenn> if you're doing rigid tapping you need an encoder anyway
[13:00:34] <fenn> for a manual reverse you could hook up a switch or pushbutton to spindle-at-speed
[13:12:21] <Kremmen> anyone worked with LinuxCNC & modbus lately? would love to see some practical application examples. my need is to control a tool carousel for an old Matsuura MC-1000V vertical mill. Thinking of implementing a dedicated controller & connecting to LinuxCNC over modbus
[13:16:05] <MarkusBec> I used modbus for my donfoss vfd
[13:16:29] <MarkusBec> there are 2 ways
[13:17:17] <MarkusBec> using a generic hal component
[13:17:28] <MarkusBec> or write your own
[13:17:40] <MarkusBec> ah 3 way
[13:18:03] <MarkusBec> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ClassicLadder_Ver_7.124
[13:18:24] <Kremmen> i was thinking of using this one: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=libmodbus
[13:19:34] <MarkusBec> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ModbusToHal
[13:20:11] <MarkusBec> i think mb2hal use libmodbus
[13:20:23] <Kremmen> yep, found that one but is has nothing on how to actually include the modbus interface in your application
[13:21:14] <Kremmen> fyi i have not yet implemented the controller so haven't got any practical experiance yet on how to do it
[13:21:44] <Kremmen> linuxCNC itself is reasonably familkiar though
[13:22:04] <MarkusBec> mb2hal creates HAL pins
[13:22:21] <MarkusBec> with values you can write and read out of linuxcnc
[13:22:38] <Kremmen> k, that sounds doable :)
[13:23:01] <MarkusBec> with small applications its easy
[13:23:29] <Kremmen> do you know if it supports anything higher level that direct pin I/O?
[13:23:32] <zeeshan> what vfd do you want to use
[13:23:47] <MarkusBec> a new hal component is maybe easier
[13:23:58] <zeeshan> i went the new component way
[13:24:03] <Kremmen> zeeshan: if that was for me then i don't want to contorl a vfd over modbus
[13:24:03] <zeeshan> its not too bad
[13:24:05] <MarkusBec> zeeshan: i think its not a vfd
[13:24:16] <zeeshan> i worked with one in C and wrote a new one in python
[13:24:17] <Kremmen> i have a set of Mesa cards for axes and spindle
[13:24:25] <zeeshan> oh
[13:24:40] <Kremmen> i want to control a tool carousel
[13:24:40] <zeeshan> custom sounds best then?
[13:24:46] <zeeshan> do you know python?
[13:24:51] <Kremmen> somewhat
[13:24:58] <Kremmen> i am a programmer but not in python
[13:25:08] <zeeshan> haha then you'll find python easy
[13:25:09] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/vfd.py
[13:25:10] <Kremmen> can do it if necessary
[13:25:14] <MarkusBec> Kremmen: you can test it
[13:25:16] <zeeshan> this really shows the layout
[13:25:18] <MarkusBec> with an arduion
[13:25:30] <MarkusBec> just load a modbus fw
[13:25:32] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[13:25:38] <zeeshan> i got instructions there on how to get started
[13:25:39] <MarkusBec> and you cann controll the IO pins
[13:25:45] <MarkusBec> wir MB2hal
[13:25:58] <MarkusBec> an read the adc values
[13:26:16] <zeeshan> i really like the minimalmodbus library
[13:26:20] <zeeshan> its literally one python file
[13:26:23] <zeeshan> makes your app portable
[13:26:59] <Kremmen> ok, though i am less concerned with portability. this is a 1 off, never to be repeated
[13:27:09] <zeeshan> so just download comms.py
[13:27:14] <zeeshan> download vfd.py
[13:27:17] <Kremmen> but generally agood idea to be sure
[13:27:18] <zeeshan> and run her away!
[13:27:18] <zeeshan> :D
[13:27:39] <Kremmen> zeeshan: but isn't that a vfd controller?
[13:27:43] <zeeshan> all you need to find out is the registers
[13:27:50] <zeeshan> that you're trying to communicate with
[13:27:55] <zeeshan> and set the mode to RTU or ASCII
[13:27:57] <zeeshan> whatever mesa uses
[13:28:10] <Kremmen> ok i get that
[13:28:24] <zeeshan> it is a vfd controller, but it lays the barebones for any modbus communication
[13:28:33] <Kremmen> ok, good
[13:28:54] <zeeshan> vfd['cltvfd.errorstatus'] = int(serialvfd2.read_register(0x2100, 0))
[13:28:56] <zeeshan> for example that line
[13:29:04] <zeeshan> it reads the value from register 2100H
[13:29:34] <zeeshan> serialvfd2.write_register(0x2001,vfd['cltvfd.freqset']*100,0,6)
[13:29:46] <zeeshan> write to register 2001H, value, i forgot, i forgot
[13:29:48] <zeeshan> :D
[13:30:34] <Kremmen> i was thinking of communicating directly out of a serial port without involving the Mesa boards in the modbus at all. I can relatively easily implement a simple ARM or AVR based controller for the carousel and code the modbus protocol there. the real question is how to do it at LinuxCNC end where i have no experience
[13:32:44] <Kremmen> this for me looks the better way because then i have one serial cable instead of a bunch of wires several meters long. RS485 is dead easy to implement and the controller can also handle local manual operations when the machine is not on automatic
[13:33:12] <zeeshan> will there be any feedback?
[13:33:17] <zeeshan> that linuxcnc has to deal with
[13:33:25] <Kremmen> it is just a question of how to set up and implement the modbus at the LinuxCNC end
[13:33:39] <Kremmen> zeeshan: yes there is
[13:33:59] <Kremmen> when the machine is on automatic, a tool change will have to be ack'ed once done
[13:34:03] <zeeshan> just one thing to be aware of, i was not able to get better then .1s response
[13:34:10] <Kremmen> or an error diagnostic if it fails
[13:34:14] <zeeshan> using modbus
[13:34:25] * zeeshan thinks it something to do w/ the sleep function
[13:34:42] <archivist> rs232 serial is not quick
[13:35:01] <Kremmen> timing is not critical, except in the actual changer arm motions. that is on reason why i am thinking of a dedicated controller
[13:35:21] <archivist> some use classicladder
[13:35:37] <archivist> has all the logic
[13:35:38] <Kremmen> so the command is not time critical; the response is not time critical. the machine will just wait until ready, and then continue
[13:35:55] <zeeshan> i dont understand why you want to build a dedicated controller
[13:36:03] <zeeshan> when you can feed all the io for the coursel
[13:36:10] <zeeshan> to linuxcnc and just use linuxcnc to control it correctly?
[13:36:13] <zeeshan> w/ a userspace component
[13:37:19] <jdh> for some reason, people seem to think that sticking an arduino in somewhere makes life better
[13:37:21] <Kremmen> archivist & zeeshan: yes, that would work but then i would have to pull a bunch of wires through the machine several meters with EMI issues to think about. and i would not have manual functiuons unless LinuxCNC was running
[13:37:47] <os1r1s> Kremmen: I've thought about doing the same thing with a carousel because its easy.
[13:38:10] <archivist> jdh that is spelled aaaaargh duino
[13:39:36] <Kremmen> i have nothing against Arduinos although for industrial apps they suck in multiple ways. and the std libraries are nothing to write home about
[13:40:00] <archivist> althogh I must admit getting an avr to convert strain gauge to serial last week
[13:40:14] <jdh> why would you ever not have LinuxCNC running if you were anywhere near the machine?
[13:40:33] <Kremmen> back in the day i did a lot of controllers for heavy machines using various technologies so feel confident in implementing a dedicated controller
[13:42:22] <Kremmen> jdh: no specific reason, it is more a "bonus" than a requirement
[13:43:03] <Kremmen> also, a dedicated controller will encapsulate the functionality against unintended modification
[13:43:21] <zeeshan> i need to drill 200 holes
[13:43:24] <zeeshan> and tap em to 1/4-20
[13:43:30] <zeeshan> i think its time to start testing rapid tapping
[13:44:20] <archivist> battery drill with autoreverse :)
[13:44:30] <Kremmen> can you do rigid tapping with a vfd?
[13:44:38] <zeeshan> yea
[13:44:42] <archivist> some do yes
[13:44:45] <Kremmen> oh, you meant "manually" :)
[13:44:48] <zeeshan> nm its 216 holes
[13:44:52] <zeeshan> 10-24
[13:44:54] <os1r1s> zeeshan: Or a tapmatic
[13:45:00] <zeeshan> i have rigid tapping
[13:45:02] <zeeshan> not tapmatic :P
[13:45:42] <zeeshan> damnit
[13:45:44] <zeeshan> the plate is 18" wide
[13:45:46] <Kremmen> what kind of position feedback from the vfd do you need then?
[13:45:48] <zeeshan> my travel is only 15"
[13:46:00] <zeeshan> will prolly need to reindex =/
[13:46:23] <archivist> the encoder feeds back what the vfd is doing
[13:46:26] <jdh> what material
[13:46:30] <zeeshan> 6061
[13:46:37] <zeeshan> prolly gonna thread roll em
[13:47:20] <Kremmen> encoder sure. does it connect directly to LinuxCNC and that one is responsible for the position then?
[13:48:13] <Kremmen> 'cause i have a Yaskawa 5.5 kW vfd with only analog tacho feedback. that won't do for positioning
[13:48:40] <furrywolf> fenn: yes, I have parts for a spindle encoder, and will have one.
[13:50:14] <archivist> Kremmen, yup linuxcnc watches the encoder to make Z follow
[13:50:47] <Kremmen> that brings up another question: the MV-1000 originally has a 2-speed variator spindle drive, now being replaced with vfd. how would one account in LinuxCNC for the change in gear ratio btw low and high gear?
[13:50:56] <Kremmen> archivist: k
[13:51:46] <archivist> look at what skunksleep did he has a two speed monster that rigid taps
[13:52:18] <Kremmen> k, where can i find that then?
[13:52:27] <Kremmen> info i mean
[13:52:37] <furrywolf> Kremmen: as long as the encoder is at the spindle end, it'll tap correctly. you can probably completely ignore the gearbox, as linuxcnc's spindle speed loop will just set the vfd to whatever makes the spindle turn the speed you gave it, no matter what the gearing is between them.
[13:52:40] <archivist> in one of his subdirectories
[13:53:15] * archivist pokes skunkworks too
[13:53:41] <archivist> probably playing with his kids on a sunday
[13:54:07] <Kremmen> furrywolf: that is part of my question, because there is no easy way to measure the spindle speed directly. The transmission and gear change are buried in the spindle box and no way am i going to dismantle the spindle drivetrain...
[13:55:11] <furrywolf> in that case you'll want a switch to let linuxcnc know which gear you're in, scale the encoder appropriately, and will need to keep in mind backlash issues for tapping...
[13:55:39] <furrywolf> I don't know how well tapping will work with backlash between the encoder and the spindle. might need slightly-not-rigid tapping.
[13:56:40] <Kremmen> could be. the gearbox is almost without backlash (can't feel any if you twist by hand) but yes, there is that
[13:56:50] <furrywolf> that should be fine, then.
[13:57:29] <Kremmen> luckily the gear change is done with mag clutches so there are no sliding gears on suchlike involved
[13:57:55] <Kremmen> s/on/or/
[13:58:29] <furrywolf> if you had, say, 10 degrees of backlash (I have no idea what your transmission looks like), you'd cut off 3% of your thread on the way back up, and with the tap completely burried, possibly snap it...
[13:58:44] <furrywolf> 6%, my bad
[13:58:53] <zeeshan> man i love mastercam
[13:59:02] <zeeshan> so quick
[13:59:05] <Kremmen> yes, that i understand. but the backlash can be at most fractions of a degree
[13:59:13] <furrywolf> in that case you'll have no problems. :)
[13:59:28] <furrywolf> just don't shift it in the middle of a tapping operation.
[13:59:40] <furrywolf> do these clutches ever slip during non-shifting use?
[14:00:04] <Kremmen> oh no :) there will be all kinds of interlocks to make sure that ( and several other no-nos) don't happen
[14:00:38] <furrywolf> if they're worn and slip when heavily loaded, you'll break taps too... but that's just a maintenance issue.
[14:00:47] <Kremmen> no the clutches have micro teeth on the facing surfaces no slippage
[14:00:54] <furrywolf> ah, good.
[14:02:03] <Kremmen> but that was a good pount which i didn't come to think about
[14:02:08] <Kremmen> point
[14:02:13] <archivist> Kremmen, somewhere in http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/
[14:02:36] <Kremmen> thanks, i'll look into that
[14:03:15] <Kremmen> lots of pictures, this will take some scanning but thanks :)
[14:03:55] <furrywolf> I seem to recall seeing an example in one of the linuxcnc manuals about ordering a gear change based on rpm. might have been the integration manual, or maybe not, since most sections in that just say "foo". heh.
[14:05:18] <zeeshan> furrywwwwwwwwwwwwwolf
[14:05:25] <zeeshan> aaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwoooooooooooooooooooooooo
[14:05:29] <zeeshan> :D
[14:09:08] <archivist> Kremmen, or here :) http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/gearchange.9.html
[14:09:33] <archivist> or a mixture
[14:10:21] <Kremmen> that seems to be exactly what i am looking forr. again, thanks
[14:10:51] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, you runnin a student copy of mastercam?
[14:11:10] <zeeshan> yessir
[14:11:13] <Tom_itx> i've got an opportunity to get that thru the local tech college
[14:11:28] <furrywolf> gearchanges on mine require a couple wrenches and some swearing, so they're not done in the middle of programs.
[14:11:29] <Tom_itx> limited time run of course
[14:11:41] <Tom_itx> unless there's a way around that
[14:11:50] <furrywolf> two stage belt drive, first with a bolt-clamped tensioner, the other with a motor-sliding tensioner...
[14:12:22] <Tom_itx> i don't really need it but thought it would be interesting to look at
[14:12:42] <Kremmen> furrywolf: found a pic of the gear https://www.dropbox.com/s/4cxr9lbq1jfgr4r/IMG_1182.JPG?dl=0
[14:12:49] <furrywolf> my spindle encoders will be at the spindles, and as I have single-speed motors, all linuxcnc needs to do is not bitch about whatever speed the spindle happens to be turning at the time. :)
[14:13:12] <Tom_itx> use near component for that
[14:13:22] <Tom_itx> or hardcode at speed
[14:13:46] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: except with different gears possible, "near" will be the entire speed range. I might combine near and lowpass, so it's at-speed if it hasn't changed much lately.
[14:14:21] <furrywolf> Kremmen: that url doesn't seem to have an image
[14:14:41] <Kremmen> worked for me so could be Dropbox is still loading it
[14:14:54] <Kremmen> just give it a minute
[14:14:57] <furrywolf> it has a big empty page with a download button on top and a couple little things I don't remember anymore after hitting back. lol
[14:15:19] <Kremmen> that would happen until the pic is there actually
[14:15:37] <Kremmen> Dropbox is not lightning fast...
[14:15:44] <archivist> dropbox is broken in some browsers
[14:16:06] <Kremmen> ok, i only use Chrome for that and it always seems to work
[14:16:32] <furrywolf> how about a link to an actual image? :P
[14:17:10] <Kremmen> i have nothing to share with, but wait. i'll link via Gyazo
[14:18:05] <furrywolf> imgur seems to work for most people here
[14:19:04] <Kremmen> this? http://gyazo.com/67f2ed1c8738a97ad474a0e6f259d935
[14:19:24] <Kremmen> Gyazo is just so dead easy :)
[14:19:59] <furrywolf> seems to work, but is very slow.
[14:20:49] <zeeshan> gyazo quality is poopy =/
[14:20:49] <furrywolf> you could try sensing off the gear teeth
[14:21:47] <furrywolf> and, yes, those nice helical gears should have minimal backlash
[14:21:55] <Kremmen> oh sensing what gear i'm on is not the problem. after all, i select it ( or the program does )
[14:22:33] <furrywolf> I mean for your spindle encoder, so you can have the encoder at the spindle end instead of the motor end.
[14:23:32] <Kremmen> ah ok. but the cavity in the picture is filled with oil mist when running so it is not an electronics friendly environment
[14:24:23] <archivist> magnetic sensors for gear teeth
[14:24:27] <Kremmen> all the gears a force lubricated with a pump you can see the surface of the oil reservoir in the bottom of the pic
[14:24:30] <furrywolf> yes, I assumed that it all got lubricated somehow. :)
[14:25:11] <renesis> making bacon
[14:25:17] <renesis> got hash browns and bacon
[14:25:19] <Kremmen> archivist: possible, but too complicated
[14:25:23] <archivist> but you need an index too so a real encoder is best
[14:25:47] <Kremmen> yes, index is one of the requirements
[14:26:28] <Kremmen> actually, index would be doable with a separate sensor because there is a provision to lock the spindle during tool change
[14:26:54] <Kremmen> there is a hydraulic cam to do that and i can sense the cam
[14:27:07] <Kremmen> the eccentric disk i mean
[14:27:46] <furrywolf> I need a fancier machine. everyone else's has things mine doesn't. heh.
[14:28:00] <renesis> fuck things!
[14:28:10] <furrywolf> I have those too, but they stay in the bedroom.
[14:28:10] * renesis mill doesnt even have limit switches
[14:28:27] <archivist> nor mine
[14:28:44] <Kremmen> furrywolf: this one is a production machine with many bells & whistles. it has good points but also makes for a complicated operation...
[14:28:48] <renesis> but its not like the leadscrew is long enough to have the X fall off the base so why need switches?!
[14:29:02] <archivist> ran out of io for vfd reversal
[14:29:39] <furrywolf> Kremmen: mine is a chinese lathe/mill combo.
[14:30:29] <Kremmen> i have a cheapo chinese hobby lathe. they say it is a good blank from which to build a machine, and they are more or less right :)
[14:31:02] <furrywolf> mine is too, in that if you melted it down for scrap, and adjusted it to be non-chinese steel, you could recast it as a part for a useful machine... :P
[14:31:14] <Kremmen> :D
[15:53:06] <JT-Shop> windoze 7 unprofessional installing update 3 of 11 and never seems to get past 3
[15:55:44] <zeeshan> G33.1 Z-0.750 K0.05 (rigid tap a 20 TPI thread 0.750 deep)
[15:55:58] <zeeshan> for rigid tapping,
[15:56:02] <zeeshan> can i do something like this
[15:56:24] <JT-Shop> so long as your at the location for the hole
[15:56:26] <PetefromTn_> yup after a location
[15:56:41] <zeeshan> G0 X1. Y1. Z1. ; G33.1 Z-0.750 K0.05, then X2. Y2.
[15:56:52] <zeeshan> to tap at both 1,1 and 2,2
[15:57:05] <JT-Shop> nope you need to g0 to the next location
[15:57:10] <zeeshan> ah
[15:57:13] <JT-Shop> G33.1 is not a canned cycle
[15:57:19] <zeeshan> so it's not like g73
[15:57:20] <zeeshan> ah
[15:57:58] <JT-Shop> I don't know why we don't have a canned rigid tapping cycle
[15:58:26] <zeeshan> G0 X1. Y1. Z1. ; G33.1 Z-0.750 K0.05; G0 X2. Y2.; then G33.1 Z-0.750 K0.05;
[15:58:37] <zeeshan> don't need to put the Z coordinate for x2 , y2
[15:58:43] <zeeshan> since it'll return back to Z1 plane?
[15:58:51] <zeeshan> mastercam outputting wrong stuff :P
[15:58:52] <JT-Shop> yep
[15:59:25] <JT-Shop> I have a program that outputs the right stuff
[15:59:39] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, what is update 3?
[15:59:48] <zeeshan> you have mastercam?
[15:59:50] <Tom_itx> maybe i should wait on mine :D
[15:59:56] <Tom_itx> who?
[16:00:00] <zeeshan> jt
[16:00:10] <Tom_itx> i don't think so
[16:00:13] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, update 3 on what?
[16:00:21] <Tom_itx> unpro 7
[16:00:23] <JT-Shop> zeeshan, no I use OneCNC
[16:00:27] <zeeshan> ah
[16:00:35] <Tom_itx> late to the party again...
[16:00:47] <JT-Shop> dunno, just did a power cycle and it says installing updates
[16:01:17] <Tom_itx> umm... i added G33.1 as a canned cycle to my cam :)
[16:02:20] <Tom_itx> it shouldn't be that hard to change it to a canned cycle
[16:03:02] <JT-Shop> there is G84 but it not defined
[16:03:36] <Tom_itx> the one thing about G33.1 is the X Y move must be separate from Z
[16:04:33] <PetefromTn_> sure would be nice to have a true canned cycle for rigid tapping.. preferrably something that the big CAM programs understands eh zeeshan!! LOL
[16:04:43] <zeeshan> yea!
[16:04:52] <JT-Shop> like G84?
[16:04:52] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, mine understands it just fine
[16:04:53] <zeeshan> im writing a post processor routine to get around it
[16:05:12] <Tom_itx> it was one of the first things i tried when converting my spindle over
[16:05:15] <zeeshan> im suprised g84 doesnt exist
[16:05:36] <zeeshan> ive tried g33.1 by hand
[16:05:36] <Tom_itx> rigid tapping is fairly new to lcnc isn't it?
[16:05:38] <JT-Shop> it does but it has undefined behavior what ever that means
[16:05:38] <zeeshan> but never by cam
[16:05:52] <zeeshan> prolly means it doesnt do anything? :D
[16:05:57] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, add it to the tapping canned cycle in your post
[16:06:11] <PetefromTn_> apparently the G33.1 is a true corrdinated movement and the other is not or something like that...
[16:06:15] <Tom_itx> then use distance per turn in defining your tool
[16:06:24] <Tom_itx> mine calculates that for me
[16:07:02] <Tom_itx> another reason i'd like to look over mastercam
[16:08:06] <Tom_itx> btw PetefromTn_, andy pushed some stuff for toolchanger comps recently
[16:08:33] <PetefromTn_> wicked
[16:08:36] <XXCoder> hey guys
[16:09:02] <Tom_itx> I just pushed a feature branch with the carousel comp, Vismach gui, G-code toolchange remap and spindle orient demos.
[16:09:05] <Tom_itx> says he
[16:09:21] <XXCoder> check this out http://picpaste.com/pics/collet-tPXzVcdw.1437299835.jpg
[16:09:25] <Tom_itx> your excuses are getting weaker
[16:09:34] <XXCoder> from internet I guess it's T4 type collet
[16:09:35] <PetefromTn_> what excuses
[16:09:39] <XXCoder> is it?
[16:09:39] <Tom_itx> heh
[16:09:58] <JT-Shop> G33 started in version 2.3
[16:10:03] <Tom_itx> i wish i had a changer to play with
[16:10:15] <XXCoder> it's buildable
[16:10:18] <PetefromTn_> I wish I could figure out how to make the damn thing orient
[16:10:42] <Tom_itx> have you tried anything yet?
[16:10:44] <furrywolf> re tapping, the manual says "If the X Y coordinates specified are not the current coordinates when calling G33.1 for tapping the move will not be along the Z axis but will rapid move from the current location to the X Y location specified."
[16:11:21] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, it does, right along with the z move
[16:11:25] <PetefromTn_> nope been covered up with other projects and anodizing misadventures ;)
[16:11:32] <Tom_itx> yeah i know...
[16:11:51] <zeeshan> hm furrywolf
[16:11:59] <PetefromTn_> just hung a new over the range microwave in the kitchen for my wife....
[16:12:04] <PetefromTn_> had to mow the lawn a few times
[16:12:12] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, so you need to put the x y move on a separate line
[16:12:16] <PetefromTn_> scratched my ass a time or two
[16:12:27] <PetefromTn_> you know important stuff ;)
[16:12:36] <Tom_itx> i added a G0 x y on a separate line in my post so it will rapid to location then tap the hole
[16:13:24] <PetefromTn_> my wife hates....christopher Cross's Sailing song.
[16:13:45] <PetefromTn_> how can you hate such a nice smooth song hehe
[16:13:53] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: that seems more like a bug than anything, then, because G33 will synchronize the x and y to the spindle as well, rather than rapid them. if it's rapiding them, it should be doing it in a useful fashion... how would it even rapid two axes while synchronizing the third at the same time?
[16:14:31] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, i'm referring to G33.1 for rigid tapping
[16:14:58] <furrywolf> yes. the manual makes it sound like G33.1 first rapids the x and y, then synchronizes the Z.
[16:15:08] <Tom_itx> well it doesn't
[16:15:34] <Tom_itx> maybe it needs clarified or fixed code
[16:15:35] <PetefromTn_> it just needs the location first but the synch is seperate no?
[16:16:24] <furrywolf> the manual entry for G33 says it synchronizes all of x, y, and z. for G33.1 it says it rapids x and y. if it doesn't... manual and/or code needs fixing. :)
[16:16:37] <Tom_itx> well it doesn't
[16:16:43] * furrywolf doesn't yet have a working spindle encoder, so can't test it
[16:17:11] <Tom_itx> that's kinda how i read it too but found out different during testing
[16:17:40] <MrSunshine> hmm a preassure foot for the cnc looks like it could be very useful ... but also looks like it could be hell on earth when doing pockets or similiar features :P
[16:18:52] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, yeah that could be a bug
[16:19:57] <PetefromTn_> MrSunshine CNC router?
[16:20:07] * furrywolf looks up how to do a spindle-synchronized rotary axis rotation
[16:20:33] <JT-Shop> IIRC last time I did a G33.1 from the wrong location it just did a feed move to the XYZ location
[16:20:53] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_: yes
[16:21:31] <MrSunshine> frekkin wood is always warped somehow ... or a vacuumtable would be the best but that requires alot of modifications to my machine :/
[16:21:47] <MrSunshine> but even with vacuumtable a preasure foot could be usefull
[16:21:58] <PetefromTn_> why does it require a lot of mods?
[16:22:15] <furrywolf> hrmm, can linuxcnc synchronize a rotary axis? I can't imagine it can't...
[16:22:24] <PetefromTn_> sure
[16:22:27] <zeeshan> linuxcnc can do anything
[16:22:29] <zeeshan> :-)
[16:22:45] <PetefromTn_> sure can really if you are creative and knowledgeable enough
[16:23:05] <furrywolf> one of the things I definitely want to do is hob gears, and to do that I need to synchronize a rotary table to the spindle. :)
[16:23:13] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_: height of the gantry is far to low to add more material under
[16:23:17] <MrSunshine> on the table
[16:24:06] <PetefromTn_> can you convert the table?
[16:24:27] <Deejay> gn8
[16:24:36] <PetefromTn_> GN8 DEEJAY!!
[16:24:48] <Deejay> nite nite, pete :)
[16:24:50] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_: the table i have is only 2cm thick now .. and im very limited in Z travel with that
[16:25:43] <fenn> furrywolf: a rotary axis is just another axis...
[16:25:47] <PetefromTn_> maybe you could make a sandwiched table with pockets to allow vacuum to run inside from two 3/8 thick pieces laminated together
[16:26:17] <XXCoder> yeah
[16:26:25] <XXCoder> use router to make groove pattern
[16:26:32] <XXCoder> then seal it with one outlet
[16:26:49] <XXCoder> and design in vaccuum hold holes on top
[16:26:58] <XXCoder> it can be just 1/4 thick
[16:27:04] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_: hmm i guess.. as long as the airflow is good it shouldnt be a problem =)
[16:27:09] <XXCoder> your 2 cm is thicker and easier
[16:27:18] <PetefromTn_> does not really take too much airflow
[16:27:25] <furrywolf> fenn: so even though the manual only says XYZ, it won't mind me sticking an A in there? good :)
[16:27:26] <MrSunshine> two 12mm plywood sheets glued together
[16:27:30] <XXCoder> yeah oits seal thats more important
[16:27:44] <XXCoder> mr sun exactly, cnc route insides
[16:27:51] <MrSunshine> mm
[16:28:18] <MrSunshine> and use the cavity to suck it together when i glue it also =)
[16:28:20] <fenn> furrywolf: worst case scenario you swap the leads on the stepper motors
[16:28:23] <MrSunshine> would be neat
[16:28:36] <PetefromTn_> could work pretty good
[16:28:40] <XXCoder> not too strong or holes will be made
[16:29:00] <furrywolf> fenn: no, worst case scenario it doesn't synchronize the axis, the cutter crashes, it breaks, it flies into my light on the ceiling, it catches fire... :P
[16:29:09] <MrSunshine> tho only vacuum source i have is my shop vac :/
[16:29:14] <PetefromTn_> if you make it from MDF you will need to paint the sides and bottom with something to seal it up with.
[16:29:25] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_: yeah
[16:29:45] <XXCoder> theres this weird vent where you used PRESSURED air supply to create vaccuum but im pretty sure it takes LOTS air.
[16:29:57] <PetefromTn_> a good shop vac should work fine depending on how aggressive your cuts are.
[16:30:15] <PetefromTn_> its called a venturi
[16:30:26] <MrSunshine> well idealy i would like to use a mdf sheet as a vacuum"dispercer?" and not have to have seals and stuff everywhere, just slap a sheet on and turn on the vacuum
[16:30:31] <JT-Shop> dust deputy
[16:30:33] <MrSunshine> and that requires alot of flow
[16:30:55] <fenn> i wonder why they never make air-powered vacuum pumps that aren't venturis
[16:31:16] <XXCoder> effecient when has lots air supply I guess
[16:31:22] <XXCoder> and few parts to break
[16:31:24] <furrywolf> because simple, cheap, no moving parts?
[16:32:59] <fenn> a 1 HP air motor is a lot cheaper than a 1 HP electric motor though
[16:33:40] <XXCoder> it comes with all assumation that all shops has air source. mostly true.
[16:33:44] <furrywolf> air -> air motor -> rotary movement -> vacuum pump -> vacuum is a lot more moving bits than air -> venturi -> vacuum...
[16:34:13] <fenn> do venturis pull a good vacuum? like > 0.5 bar
[16:34:39] <fenn> i made a few and they were never very good
[16:34:42] <furrywolf> yes
[16:34:54] <furrywolf> I think I got 26" on the little ones I have...
[16:35:23] <fenn> what's that in sane units
[16:35:56] <furrywolf> the ones I have are a little fancier than average, in that they're three stages with little rubber flap valves, to optimize them for high flow at low vacuum, while still pulling a high vacuum at low flow, rather than having to design for just one condition or the other.
[16:36:01] <PetefromTn_> we have used them many times in the Pro woodworking realm and they work really good if you have enough airflow
[16:36:37] <furrywolf> You have: 26 inHg
[16:36:40] <furrywolf> You want: mmHg
[16:36:40] <furrywolf> * 660.4
[16:36:50] <furrywolf> You have: 26 inHg
[16:36:52] <XXCoder> heh I remember one time where work had a air pressure "blackout". many bad things happened, and my machine dropped a tool since it was in middle of tool change
[16:36:54] <furrywolf> You want: bar
[16:36:54] <furrywolf> * 0.88046105
[16:36:54] <furrywolf> better?
[16:37:05] <XXCoder> broke the 1/2 in em
[16:37:14] <XXCoder> dented the work part so it was ruined
[16:37:24] <fenn> yes thank you
[16:37:55] <XXCoder> not as scary as other time where we was using bridgeport with vaccuum hold - one part flew off
[16:39:33] <fenn> so the machines aren't programmed to e-stop if they lose air pressure?
[16:39:55] <XXCoder> it did but it was bit late for that tool. machine stopped at critical time
[16:40:04] <PetefromTn_> mine is
[16:40:31] <XXCoder> so lever was in middle and it was timed to release but lever didnt arrive
[16:40:50] <XXCoder> I guess tool change do not e-stop
[16:41:17] <XXCoder> and bridgeport well it arent cnc lol
[16:41:48] <XXCoder> they got fed up after second one and tripled air supply
[16:42:27] <malcom2073> Knew a guy who got his neck torn in half when a vaccume hold failed, that stuff is scary
[16:42:31] <fenn> what caused that to happen in the first place?
[16:42:48] <fenn> the loss of air pressure
[16:42:50] <XXCoder> fenn: not enough air supply, they recently expanded
[16:43:11] <XXCoder> I think orginially they had 2 BIG tanks, now 6
[16:44:13] <XXCoder> or was it one BIG tank to 3? forgot
[16:44:17] <XXCoder> its huge shop
[16:46:02] <XXCoder> anyway yeah usin vacuum? make sure you got plenty air! lol
[16:47:45] <furrywolf> sounds like machines need gauges and/or low air pressure warnings...
[16:47:52] <fenn> has anyone here built a machine using air motors as servos instead of the usual electric motors?
[16:47:55] <fenn> or hydraulic
[16:48:07] <XXCoder> furrywolf: they do
[16:48:07] <furrywolf> the ones with little red/green flags are cheap
[16:48:40] <XXCoder> but not bridgeport, there is simply no way to stop on time. just use a tarp framed with pvc pipes to protect people from flying part
[16:49:11] <fenn> there used to be a lot of hydraulic pantograph machines... skip the ballscrew entirely
[16:49:22] <furrywolf> fenn: air motors tend to bypass at low flow, and might result in tuning annoyances.
[16:49:24] <furrywolf> hydraulic has been done
[16:49:32] <XXCoder> stopping in middle of facemill would have ruined part anyway, pretty low tolence, those part
[16:49:35] <pcw_home> lots of 50's and 60's machines were hydraulic
[16:49:40] <XXCoder> spring cut ring
[16:50:16] <furrywolf> also, proportional air valves are just as expensive as servo motors....
[16:52:19] <fenn> pshaw
[16:52:47] <fenn> i have some ideas for controlling hydraulics
[16:53:01] <furrywolf> so do I. what type of ideas? :)
[16:53:22] <fenn> magnetorheological fluid flow through a constrictor
[16:53:40] <fenn> when magnetized it doesn't flow
[16:54:25] <furrywolf> are there non-abrasive fluids that'll completely stop flowing?
[16:54:46] <fenn> not sure
[16:54:56] <fenn> if both sides leak at the same rate it will stay mostly still
[16:56:20] <furrywolf> and build an h-bridge out of four of them on the inputs to a standard hydraulic motor?
[16:57:46] <fenn> that's one way, yes
[16:58:11] <furrywolf> or directly drive a ram, I guess.
[16:58:48] <furrywolf> I'd be worried about abrasiveness, settling/sedimentation, clogging, and all those other things that make theory and reality differ... testing would be needed. :)
[16:59:59] <fenn> i would probably use the magnetorheological fluid to open/close a valve that ran some other kind of hydraulic fluid through the rest of the system
[17:00:33] <furrywolf> would that offer any benefits over a voice-coil driven valve?
[17:01:20] <furrywolf> you can make a voice coil driven valve with sub-ms response time...
[17:01:51] <XXCoder> wonder what backlash such system would have
[17:01:58] <fenn> zero backlash
[17:02:05] <XXCoder> really?
[17:02:05] <fenn> it would have other weird control issues though
[17:02:23] <XXCoder> purely incompressable fluid dont leave room for backlash I guess
[17:02:27] <JT-Shop> hmm windblows has been updating for over an hour
[17:02:48] <XXCoder> fenn: got weird idea
[17:02:58] <furrywolf> there's always some backlash. expansion of flexible lines will add a lot, but even if you avoid them, expansion of steel lines, slop in ways, etc.
[17:03:07] <furrywolf> jthornton: that's normal.
[17:03:09] <furrywolf> JT-Shop
[17:03:09] <XXCoder> pressure both sides of axis, and open or close vents on sides to move
[17:03:21] <furrywolf> XXCoder: that's not weird. that's normal.
[17:03:42] <XXCoder> I thought it would need to pump in to push, pump out to pull
[17:04:07] <fenn> most hydraulic cylinders are "double acting"
[17:04:13] <furrywolf> XXCoder: many hydraulic systems continuously flow at full rate until valves are closed to cause movement.
[17:04:28] <XXCoder> ok
[17:04:52] <furrywolf> car power steering being the example virtually everyone has used... the pump is flowing full flow, low pressure, until turning the wheel upsets the balance of pressure on the valve...
[17:04:57] <fenn> if you drive it one direction with a vacuum there's a maximum 14.7psi from the atmosphere
[17:05:12] <fenn> or less depending on where you live :)
[17:05:28] <furrywolf> or more if you're a saturation diver with a machine shop! :P
[17:05:48] <XXCoder> lol
[17:06:00] <XXCoder> fenn I wonder what control issues would it have
[17:06:06] <XXCoder> you menioned weird control issues
[17:06:56] <fenn> well it would have a longer time to turn the valve on and off than a transistor would usually take
[17:06:59] <furrywolf> I just don't see any benefit to using a magnetorheological fluid to control a valve that controls regular hydraulic fluid. a normal voice-coil actuated valve would be just as fast and much, much cheaper...
[17:07:28] <fenn> yeah you are probably right.. the magnetorheological stuff was for a different type of actuator
[17:08:18] <XXCoder> interesting. so machine would be much more accurate
[17:08:20] <fenn> i never got a good answer on why proportional valves are so expensive
[17:08:39] <XXCoder> why not just add timing pause after valve open or close?
[17:08:40] <furrywolf> speciality components are always expensive.
[17:08:56] <XXCoder> and would it affect ops like create circle, since it needs constantly changing speeds
[17:09:04] <XXCoder> sin/cos
[17:09:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: you'd use high-speed variable flow valves, that open based on what speed you need.
[17:10:40] <XXCoder> oh yeah got question
[17:10:50] <XXCoder> what kind of shop has end mills and so on?
[17:11:01] <furrywolf> a machine shop?
[17:11:05] <XXCoder> I checked frys and fright harbor and they dont have em
[17:11:06] <furrywolf> or do you mean shop as in store?
[17:11:20] <XXCoder> store yes I know shops has em, I use em a lot :)
[17:11:42] <furrywolf> tooling stores. I've heard of their existance, but I've never seen one. heh. online/catalog is typical.
[17:11:51] <fenn> industrial supply. i think fastenal carries them but they dont have a good selection and are overprice
[17:11:52] <XXCoder> sucks. ok
[17:11:59] <furrywolf> harbor freight used to sell endmills, but only a large set of them, not that great of quality.
[17:12:12] <fenn> friends dont let friends use harbor freight endmills
[17:12:26] <XXCoder> I got minor issue with my machine, I dont know what chuck it uses
[17:12:33] <XXCoder> its defintly not ER type
[17:12:36] <XXCoder> T4 maybe
[17:12:54] <furrywolf> fenn: fastenal has a good selection of nothing and are overpriced on everything. and if you do order something, they charge you full freight costs, like fedex would charge to ship it to your house, then just toss it in their regular linehaul freight trucks.
[17:13:21] <XXCoder> check this out http://picpaste.com/pics/collet-tPXzVcdw.1437299835.jpg
[17:13:43] <XXCoder> click on pic for bigger version
[17:14:10] <furrywolf> XXCoder: it could well be not a standard.
[17:14:24] <XXCoder> for dimension - 10 mm bottom, flare out 12 mm
[17:14:30] <XXCoder> thats my concern yeah
[17:14:59] <XXCoder> I found a 6 mm shaft to er8 adoptor but uncertain
[17:15:29] <XXCoder> http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x265/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/r/trend_cltt3_500.jpg
[17:15:40] <XXCoder> this is closest I found, but no dimensions stated anywhere
[17:16:38] <XXCoder> whaa http://www.ffx.co.uk/tools/product/Trend%20Clt%20T4%206%205027654543542%20Collet%206Mm%20T4
[17:16:40] <XXCoder> found it
[17:16:48] <XXCoder> thanks guys for helping LOL
[17:17:26] <XXCoder> I failed to find any yeserday
[17:17:39] <XXCoder> so I know for sure it IS T4 collet
[17:18:35] <furrywolf> looks like a pretty crappy collet design to me. lol
[17:18:43] <XXCoder> it does.
[17:19:58] <XXCoder> only 3 sizes exist, 6 mm, 8 mm and 1/4
[17:20:01] <XXCoder> wheee
[17:20:13] <XXCoder> good enough for many stuff till I upgrade tpo 53 mm spindle
[17:20:19] <XXCoder> using new mount
[17:33:37] <XXCoder> wow not even trend sells em on amazing anymore
[17:36:45] <furrywolf> no
[17:36:49] <furrywolf> grr, wrong window
[17:50:07] <XXCoder> http://www.ctctools.biz/er11-6mm-x-50mm-straight-shank-chuck-d69/
[17:50:10] <XXCoder> this might worjk
[17:50:18] <XXCoder> just cut off shank so its shorter
[17:50:26] <XXCoder> and I now has nice ER11
[17:50:31] <XXCoder> no more weird t4 stuff
[18:02:23] <zeeshan> what sfm do you guyus use
[18:02:28] <zeeshan> when rigid tapping
[18:02:38] <XXCoder> billion
[18:02:42] <XXCoder> kidding dunno
[18:02:48] <XXCoder> HSS good for wood right?
[18:02:58] <zeeshan> yes
[18:03:15] <XXCoder> thanks
[18:05:46] <Loetmichel> XXCoder: i used one of these in my little milling spindle
[18:06:25] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12846&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- instead of the proxxon shaft
[18:06:30] <Loetmichel> works great
[18:06:51] <XXCoder> not bad
[18:06:52] <Loetmichel> but with an 8mm shank
[18:07:05] <XXCoder> yeah I probably have to buy 8 mm shank
[18:07:11] <XXCoder> or 1/4 whatever easiest to get
[18:07:18] <XXCoder> *chuck
[18:07:39] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12821&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- easy as can be if you have a lathe ;-)
[18:08:37] <Tom_itx> zeeshan sfm would be a product of your RPM during rigid tapping
[18:08:53] <zeeshan> ??
[18:08:59] <zeeshan> you can set rpm to 10000
[18:09:01] <zeeshan> if you wanted to
[18:09:07] <zeeshan> and still get the right thread
[18:09:11] <Tom_itx> yes
[18:09:21] <zeeshan> thats why im asking what sfm should be
[18:09:34] <Tom_itx> but it would still be a product of your rpm and tap pitch
[18:09:34] <zeeshan> cant find much info online
[18:09:39] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: yeah too bad no lathe
[18:09:43] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: it's the other wasy around
[18:09:47] <zeeshan> you using sfm to figure out rpm
[18:10:03] <zeeshan> sfm is constant for a given tool
[18:10:14] <zeeshan> rpm has a diameter effect on it
[18:10:33] <XXCoder> what endmill with V is called?
[18:10:43] <XXCoder> I want ability to cut V grooves
[18:11:25] <Tom_itx> mine is set for ~18sfm
[18:11:30] <XXCoder> ah cornering rounding em
[18:11:33] <Tom_itx> 500 rpm
[18:11:55] <zeeshan> ah
[18:12:17] <Tom_itx> then my cam calculates the IPR
[18:12:24] <Tom_itx> you don't really use SFM there
[18:12:41] <Loetmichel> XXCoder: had a little problem with bearing temperature tho
[18:12:42] <Tom_itx> as the pitch changes so does the SFM
[18:12:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12840&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[18:13:06] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: I think I'll be fine just buying 6 mm diameter tools for now
[18:13:07] <Loetmichel> that was with a PE insert in the coupling
[18:13:15] <XXCoder> its not like I need large vareity while learning
[18:13:20] <Loetmichel> i have now switched to rubber inserts: MUCH better ;)
[18:13:32] <Loetmichel> only 45°C at 20kRPM
[18:13:46] <XXCoder> it will also work on cutting clamp for new 53 mm spindle later
[18:14:10] <XXCoder> its most important that it gets to working condition
[18:14:13] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, with tapping IPR is a constant
[18:14:16] <XXCoder> I can figure others later
[18:14:23] <Tom_itx> and SFM would follow the rpm
[18:18:37] <Tom_itx> that's why my bud had so much fun cutting these threads: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/thread1.jpg
[18:18:42] <Tom_itx> 3 tpi
[18:20:01] <XXCoder> hmm 10 EM, 2 ball end em
[18:20:06] <XXCoder> what else should I get
[18:20:13] <Tom_itx> one of everything
[18:20:20] <Tom_itx> and two if you plan to break one
[18:22:49] <furrywolf> two is one and one is none. never get only one of any cutting tool. heh.
[18:22:56] <zeeshan> finally
[18:22:57] <XXCoder> lol
[18:22:58] <zeeshan> 30 min later
[18:23:00] <zeeshan> my post is working right
[18:23:01] <XXCoder> yeah makes sense
[18:23:05] <zeeshan> can someone conforim this plz
[18:23:21] <XXCoder> one time I broke one em while trying to finbd tool length
[18:23:21] <zeeshan> http://pastebin.com/Qr0Qzwfk
[18:23:31] <XXCoder> felt stupid. it was 1/2 em carbide too. not cheap
[18:23:34] <zeeshan> so basically go to g0 to position
[18:23:35] <zeeshan> then g33 it
[18:23:37] <zeeshan> and repeat
[18:24:04] <Tom_itx> zeeshan did you see my test file?
[18:24:18] <zeeshan> no i missed it
[18:24:30] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/temp/relaymount.txt
[18:24:33] <Tom_itx> that works
[18:24:40] <Tom_itx> N21 forward
[18:24:56] <zeeshan> you dont do g99 before each g33 ?
[18:24:57] <zeeshan> 33.1
[18:25:07] <Tom_itx> it's modal isn't it?
[18:25:14] <zeeshan> hm lemme check
[18:26:11] <zeeshan> erm
[18:26:12] <zeeshan> it doesnt say
[18:26:33] <Tom_itx> i can tell you that file works ok
[18:27:24] <zeeshan> cant hurt to put g99
[18:27:24] <zeeshan> :D
[18:27:26] <Tom_itx> 100% post generated
[18:27:40] <zeeshan> mine is too now =D
[18:27:47] <zeeshan> i just select tool
[18:27:51] <zeeshan> it calculates thread pitch based on tool
[18:27:51] <XXCoder> first air cut then scraps heh
[18:27:55] <Tom_itx> yup
[18:27:56] <zeeshan> all i gotta enter is sfm
[18:28:09] <Tom_itx> i don't get SFM with tapping at all!
[18:28:34] <Tom_itx> unless you don't want to select the rpm yourself
[18:28:37] <XXCoder> what you guys think http://www.amazon.com/Dormer-High-Speed-Single-End-Countersink-Uncoated/dp/B003JY71UG/ref=sr_1_144?ie=UTF8&qid=1437347016&sr=8-144&keywords=%226+mm+shank%22+-hex+-wire
[18:28:42] <XXCoder> good chamfer cutter?
[18:28:48] <zeeshan> http://balax.com/sites/default/files/Suggested-Tapping%20Speeds.pdf
[18:28:52] <zeeshan> there tom
[18:29:02] <zeeshan> rpm doesnt make sens for a tap
[18:29:12] <zeeshan> cause it will change for different diameter taps?
[18:29:16] <zeeshan> sfm is constant
[18:29:24] <zeeshan> look at for example that chart
[18:29:31] <zeeshan> you can see sfm is 55 for mild steel
[18:29:33] <Tom_itx> i believe you
[18:29:35] <zeeshan> but rpm is changing based on size
[18:29:46] <zeeshan> i'm not sure i'd tap at 1500 rpm
[18:29:48] <zeeshan> but yuou get me :)
[18:30:03] <Tom_itx> i figured common sense would tell you where to set the rpm
[18:30:26] <zeeshan> jeez
[18:30:30] <zeeshan> for aluminum #10
[18:30:38] <zeeshan> they say 1609 rpm!
[18:31:02] <Tom_itx> variables like machine rigidity etc come into play too
[18:32:03] <Tom_itx> i did save a copy of that for reference though
[18:32:28] <PetefromTn_> what are you guys talking about?
[18:32:36] <Tom_itx> tapping
[18:32:49] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/0kDxSye.png
[18:32:56] <zeeshan> since my plate is too wide that igotta make
[18:33:00] <zeeshan> i split it in half
[18:33:01] <zeeshan> gonna do half
[18:33:04] <zeeshan> then rezero
[18:33:06] <zeeshan> and do the other halkf
[18:33:14] <PetefromTn_> Ok
[18:33:32] <PetefromTn_> did you come up with some sorta script to post tapping code or something?
[18:33:34] <Tom_itx> is this a sacrificial plate?
[18:33:40] <zeeshan> no
[18:33:44] <zeeshan> this is for the makerspace router
[18:33:50] <zeeshan> he's making a base plate for it
[18:33:59] <Tom_itx> oh
[18:34:16] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_, no zeeshan just got his cam to post it for mastercam
[18:34:18] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: i fixed the masterrcam post processor
[18:34:23] <zeeshan> to output right stuff
[18:34:28] <PetefromTn_> Oh yeah...nice
[18:34:47] <PetefromTn_> my friend brings me work and MOST of the cam post works with linuxCNC just NOT the tapping
[18:35:02] <Tom_itx> fix it
[18:35:46] <PetefromTn_> If I could use it every day I would probably try heh
[18:36:13] <Tom_itx> i may likely not use mine again but i wanted it fixed :D
[18:36:28] <PetefromTn_> why?
[18:36:29] <zeeshan> can you guys go over tool setup with me again
[18:36:32] <zeeshan> i want a step by step procedure
[18:36:37] <zeeshan> so i go t1 m6
[18:36:38] <Tom_itx> to know i can fix it and that it works
[18:36:45] <zeeshan> then i jog a REFERENCE tool
[18:36:53] <zeeshan> to the table with a dowel in between
[18:36:56] <zeeshan> roll the dowel
[18:37:30] <Tom_itx> enter your H offset too
[18:37:46] <Tom_itx> at least in the code
[18:38:13] <zeeshan> okay so t1 m6 g43 h1
[18:38:28] <zeeshan> then touch the dowel and zero my tool offset
[18:38:30] <zeeshan> for Z.
[18:38:31] <PetefromTn_> is this your probe/reference tool?
[18:38:35] <zeeshan> yes
[18:38:45] <zeeshan> like should it just be an end mill i dont use?
[18:38:54] <Tom_itx> then you enter the value minus the dowel for your tool offset
[18:38:56] <PetefromTn_> honestly I don't really do that anymore
[18:38:59] <Tom_itx> and zero z
[18:39:10] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: what im tryng to do is have a massive tool library
[18:39:13] <zeeshan> that always just works
[18:39:18] <zeeshan> like theres a couple tools i use all the time
[18:39:20] <PetefromTn_> I just touch off all the tools in a program to a place in the right rear of the table on top of my 123 blocks
[18:39:21] <zeeshan> and it really sucks rezeroing them
[18:39:22] <zeeshan> to use em
[18:39:38] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, i also have a tool library but you still need to run the offsets each time for safety
[18:39:47] <zeeshan> no
[18:39:50] <PetefromTn_> yeah I TRY to do the same thing but it is not really practical for some tools
[18:40:00] <zeeshan> tell you which tools i have standard
[18:40:05] <zeeshan> 1/4" end mill, 1/2" 3/8"
[18:40:07] <zeeshan> center drill tool
[18:40:08] <zeeshan> face mill
[18:40:16] <zeeshan> 1/4" drill
[18:40:23] <zeeshan> those tools i want always to work
[18:40:30] <PetefromTn_> if you don't break em or remove them from the holder you should not have to retouch them
[18:40:44] <zeeshan> lemme tell you how i was doing it
[18:40:48] <zeeshan> i would put 3/8 end mill as tool 1
[18:40:52] <zeeshan> and touch the top of my work piece
[18:40:56] <zeeshan> and zero the offset
[18:41:05] <zeeshan> then i'd go to tool 2, and touch the top of the work piece and zero the offset for it
[18:41:07] <zeeshan> and so on
[18:41:18] <zeeshan> so i realized later
[18:41:25] <zeeshan> it works, but its the wrong way
[18:41:30] <Tom_itx> yeah i set my tool table to match the ones in my cam
[18:41:30] <zeeshan> cause if you use a different height work piece
[18:41:36] <zeeshan> that'd mean you'd have to go rezero ALL the tools
[18:41:48] <zeeshan> which is why you guys use the table
[18:41:50] <Tom_itx> and if i add tools they go on the end of the list
[18:41:50] <zeeshan> to zero to
[18:42:07] <PetefromTn_> yeah which is why I touch off all the tools to the 123 block in a certain place on the table for consistency
[18:42:24] <PetefromTn_> then I just put the first tool in the spindle
[18:42:26] <zeeshan> so once i zero all my tools w/ a dowel or 123 block at the table
[18:42:36] <PetefromTn_> and touch off the G54 offset to that tool ensuring it is the active tool
[18:42:38] <Tom_itx> it doesn't matter where you touch the tools off as long as it's the same for all of them
[18:42:56] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: it matters
[18:43:02] <Tom_itx> that puts them all relative to each other
[18:43:04] <zeeshan> because if you break your reference tool
[18:43:10] <zeeshan> and you don't have the same work piece in there
[18:43:14] <zeeshan> and the work piece is at a diff height
[18:43:17] <zeeshan> it throws things off
[18:43:26] <PetefromTn_> yeah I don't use a reference tool anymore
[18:43:31] <Tom_itx> rezero that tool
[18:43:36] <PetefromTn_> just touch off all the tools in the same place
[18:43:44] <Tom_itx> we used a dowel pin alot for that and it was always in a certain slot
[18:43:51] <PetefromTn_> and touch off the first tool in the program atop the workpiece
[18:43:56] <Tom_itx> and also used it for positioning material
[18:44:00] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: im confused
[18:44:08] <zeeshan> if you touch your first tool in the program on top of the work piece
[18:44:15] <zeeshan> by that you mean you're setting g54
[18:44:18] <zeeshan> not tool offset right?
[18:44:28] <PetefromTn_> I load the first tool in the program
[18:44:29] <Tom_itx> if you have G54 selected you do
[18:44:46] <PetefromTn_> goto MID and input say T2 M6 G43 H2
[18:45:03] <PetefromTn_> and then I jog to the fixture offset or X0Y0 of the workpiece
[18:45:26] <PetefromTn_> and touch off with that first tool on top of the part using the dowel pin of known diameter.
[18:45:38] <PetefromTn_> hit touch off and input the pin diameter and hit okay
[18:45:59] <PetefromTn_> since all of the tools are touched off to the tool table in the same location they all work
[18:46:04] <zeeshan> "hit touch off"
[18:46:06] <zeeshan> which touch off
[18:46:07] <zeeshan> g54?
[18:46:08] <PetefromTn_> BRB gotta eat dinner
[18:46:30] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, if i understand him correctly, yes
[18:46:39] <zeeshan> okay i think i get it
[18:46:48] <zeeshan> that means when you touch off at the corner of the table
[18:46:50] <Tom_itx> the tools are all relative to each other
[18:47:06] <zeeshan> like
[18:47:12] <zeeshan> okay i think one thing to clear up is
[18:47:23] <zeeshan> you've already dialed in all your tools with the corner of the table
[18:47:30] <zeeshan> but now 5 days later you gotta add a new tool
[18:47:39] <zeeshan> so you gotta makes ure you take any one of those tools you defined before
[18:47:41] <os1r1s> Can someone explain what the degree on a 35 degree lathe tool or a 55 degree lathe tool represents?
[18:47:42] <Tom_itx> touch it off at the same place
[18:47:43] <zeeshan> and touch the TABLE first
[18:47:47] <zeeshan> and reset g54
[18:47:55] <zeeshan> before you try to define the new tool
[18:48:01] <Tom_itx> why would you reset G54 unless that's the reference tool?
[18:48:07] <zeeshan> because
[18:48:16] <zeeshan> when you use the tools, you're moving g54 to the workpiece
[18:48:18] <zeeshan> away from the table now
[18:48:24] <zeeshan> so if g54 is at the top of the work piece
[18:48:27] <furrywolf> os1r1s: the only definition I know is how pointy the point of the tool is.
[18:48:31] <zeeshan> and you go and try to touch your table
[18:48:35] <zeeshan> you're gonna throw off your new tool
[18:48:37] <zeeshan> significantly
[18:48:39] <furrywolf> so a 60 degree tool meets in a 60 degree vee
[18:49:00] <zeeshan> os1r1s: that could mean anything
[18:49:05] <os1r1s> furrywolf: Thats weird. because it appears that my 55 degree tool has an 80 degree insert
[18:49:08] <zeeshan> they need to specific something like rake angle
[18:49:11] <zeeshan> etc
[18:49:24] <zeeshan> can you talk about the specific tool
[18:49:27] <zeeshan> it'l;l help explain it better
[18:49:44] <furrywolf> os1r1s: in which case I have absolutely no idea. :)
[18:49:48] <os1r1s> Let me see if I can find a link ...
[18:50:10] <os1r1s> furrywolf: zeeshan http://www.sherline.com/2256pg.htm
[18:50:28] <os1r1s> A 35 degree insert tool holder with a 55 degree insert
[18:50:38] <os1r1s> I don't get how that works
[18:50:44] <zeeshan> lol
[18:50:50] <zeeshan> cause they are writing it in a lame way
[18:50:59] <Tom_itx> the 55 deg describes the insert
[18:51:10] <zeeshan> 35 is the angle from the vertical
[18:51:10] <furrywolf> that's how much the tip is rotated from being in-line with the tool holder's shank
[18:51:12] <zeeshan> to your insert
[18:51:13] <Tom_itx> the 35 deg describes how it's mounted to the holder
[18:52:08] <os1r1s> So in the picture, (http://www.sherline.com/images/2253pic.jpg), the side nearest the wrench is 35 degrees from 90?
[18:52:40] <furrywolf> $10/insert is ouch for something that tiny.
[18:53:07] <zeeshan> os1r1s: no
[18:53:08] <zeeshan> other side
[18:53:34] <os1r1s> zeeshan: So the bottom side in the picture
[18:53:57] <zeeshan> lets use a diagram
[18:54:01] <zeeshan> not be ambigious :P
[18:54:17] <zeeshan> that 35 degree is usually called
[18:54:22] <zeeshan> the "side cutting edge angle"
[18:54:24] <zeeshan> http://www.carbidedepot.com/images/holders-mvtn-1.gif
[18:54:43] <zeeshan> http://www.carbidedepot.com/images/holders-mvjn-1.gif
[18:54:52] <zeeshan> can you spot the difference?
[18:55:01] <zeeshan> if the cutting edge is flat
[18:55:05] <zeeshan> it'd be considered 0 degree
[18:55:16] <zeeshan> the second pic i posted its tilted to the left by 3 degrees
[18:55:35] <zeeshan> the first pic its tilted by 27.5 degree
[18:57:12] <zeeshan> the tool you posted
[18:57:17] <zeeshan> doesnt look anywhere close to 35 degreees :p
[18:57:22] <zeeshan> so i dunno wtf they're talkin about
[18:57:45] <zeeshan> that looks like a standard 5 degree tool
[18:57:46] <os1r1s> zeeshan: Right. I have one in my hand
[18:58:19] <zeeshan> is it positive rake
[18:58:20] <zeeshan> or negative
[18:58:22] <zeeshan> if its positive
[18:58:24] <zeeshan> its likely a 7 degree
[18:58:27] <zeeshan> of its negative likely a 5 degree
[18:58:58] <zeeshan> theres 12930123890231890 combinations though
[18:59:36] <os1r1s> It looks like the "flat side" you referenced above is similar on both
[18:59:49] <os1r1s> But the other side varies significantly
[19:00:01] <zeeshan> the insert will stay the same
[19:00:06] <zeeshan> its just rotations about the screw
[19:00:08] <zeeshan> that changes
[19:00:52] <zeeshan> do you know what the point of this angle is?
[19:01:03] * zeeshan thinks its interesting
[19:01:14] <zeeshan> the 27.5 degree tip is much weaker
[19:01:21] <zeeshan> than the 3 degree tip
[19:01:41] <os1r1s> I understand the stronger one to be the one you want to rough with
[19:01:51] <os1r1s> And the weaker to finish
[19:01:59] <zeeshan> no
[19:02:04] <zeeshan> you never want the weaker angle
[19:02:14] <zeeshan> i don't remembwer all the experimental results and theory
[19:02:18] <zeeshan> but it was a big no to use that tool ever
[19:02:26] <zeeshan> only time you use it is when you _have_ to
[19:02:29] <zeeshan> like for undercuts
[19:02:30] <zeeshan> and profiling
[19:04:25] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan sorry man had to eat dinner or my wife gets mad at me :)
[19:04:32] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: haha its okay
[19:04:33] <PetefromTn_> anyways to be clearer here
[19:04:43] <PetefromTn_> when I touch off all of the tools at the corner of the table
[19:05:06] <PetefromTn_> I have created my offset for G59.3 at that point in X,Y and Z at the top of travel
[19:05:44] <PetefromTn_> so when I am ready to touch off a new tool (unless it is just a quick one off drill or something) I go G59.3 GoX0Y0
[19:05:53] <PetefromTn_> and the table moves to that position.
[19:06:12] <zeeshan> so you have a dedicated coordinate system
[19:06:16] <zeeshan> for your tool touch off
[19:06:17] <PetefromTn_> Then I load the tool in MDI IE TX M6 G54 HX
[19:06:18] <zeeshan> is what youre saying
[19:06:28] <PetefromTn_> yes essentially
[19:06:37] <zeeshan> okay i see the benefit of that
[19:06:40] <PetefromTn_> and I touch off all the tools atop that 123 block
[19:06:44] <zeeshan> so you load up a tool that you know is good
[19:06:48] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: thats what I do at work too
[19:06:53] <PetefromTn_> then when I am ready to machine a part I just load the first tool
[19:06:57] <XXCoder> all tools are touched off by 123 block
[19:07:01] <zeeshan> so basically lets say tool 2 is still good
[19:07:02] <zeeshan> you'd go
[19:07:10] <PetefromTn_> and touch off G54 Z0 atop the workpiece using the dowel pin
[19:07:19] <zeeshan> t2 m6 g43 h2; g59.3 g0 x0y0
[19:07:21] <zeeshan> and bam
[19:07:26] <zeeshan> the tool goes to the right position
[19:07:29] <zeeshan> now you remove the tool
[19:07:31] <zeeshan> and put in new tool
[19:07:38] <PetefromTn_> well not exactly
[19:07:48] <PetefromTn_> you load the tool in MDI as you show
[19:07:58] <PetefromTn_> then you go G59.3 G0 Xo Yo
[19:08:24] <PetefromTn_> and then I jog the tool down to the 123 block and bump it up in .0001 increments until the block JUST slides under the tool
[19:08:39] <zeeshan> wouldn't the tool already be at the correct position
[19:08:44] <zeeshan> cause you dialed it in before?
[19:08:46] <PetefromTn_> then I hit touch off .....select tool table from the drop down and hit okay
[19:08:51] <XXCoder> I usually do slide up .01, .001 then finally .0001
[19:08:52] <XXCoder> faster
[19:09:04] <PetefromTn_> Oh is this a tool that is ALREADY in the table?
[19:09:07] <zeeshan> yes
[19:09:13] <PetefromTn_> Oh then just use it
[19:09:19] <zeeshan> okay youre talking about
[19:09:22] <zeeshan> a new tool
[19:09:24] <zeeshan> gotcha
[19:09:26] <PetefromTn_> just goto G54 G0 X0 Y0
[19:09:33] <zeeshan> question
[19:09:36] <zeeshan> the first time you defined all your tools
[19:09:39] <PetefromTn_> and touch off with that tool and the dowel pin
[19:09:43] <zeeshan> you made sure you did g59.3
[19:09:55] <zeeshan> before you dialed in your tools right?
[19:10:09] <PetefromTn_> well yes I moved the table to its limits in that corner
[19:10:24] <PetefromTn_> and hit touch off....select G59.3 from the drop down menu
[19:10:27] <PetefromTn_> and hit okay
[19:10:31] <zeeshan> you sir need to write an updated version of tool tables
[19:10:33] <zeeshan> on the linuxcnc page
[19:10:39] <PetefromTn_> that makes that location G59.3 G0X0Y0
[19:10:40] <zeeshan> cause this procedure is much better
[19:11:02] <PetefromTn_> well actually it is MOSTLY what cradek helped me do with some subtle changes
[19:11:04] <PetefromTn_> it works for me
[19:11:16] <PetefromTn_> and it keeps my tools loaded and accurately touched off
[19:11:21] <zeeshan> i think touchking the workpiece
[19:11:22] <zeeshan> if a bad diea.
[19:11:24] <zeeshan> *idea
[19:11:28] <zeeshan> cause after you're done with that work piece
[19:11:33] <zeeshan> your new work piece might be at a diff z height
[19:11:40] <zeeshan> which means you can't dial your tools in again.
[19:11:46] <zeeshan> (new tools)_
[19:11:50] <PetefromTn_> you just have to make sure that when you first load the new tool that it is in the table and has NO offsets already in place
[19:12:00] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: how do you decide when you has new machine?
[19:12:14] <PetefromTn_> if you already have some sort of offset in there it sorta adds the new one to it and it is all screwed up
[19:12:20] <XXCoder> coordite system and zeros so on
[19:12:21] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: rofl
[19:12:26] <zeeshan> i chased my tail a while back
[19:12:30] <zeeshan> till cradek pointed it out
[19:12:42] <PetefromTn_> that is basically what I was doing until cradek straightened me out too...
[19:12:48] <PetefromTn_> it is easy to confuse that
[19:12:54] <PetefromTn_> seems simple now tho
[19:12:59] <zeeshan> fakin offsets
[19:13:03] <PetefromTn_> but it sure as hell confused me at first
[19:13:15] <zeeshan> honestly ive been dialing on the work piece
[19:13:17] <zeeshan> everytime for all my tools
[19:13:17] <XXCoder> 59.3 gonna elarn that
[19:13:20] <zeeshan> and its getting really annoying
[19:13:22] <zeeshan> :-)
[19:13:41] <PetefromTn_> yeah this way as long as you don't change a tool or break a tool it remains the correct offset
[19:13:51] <zeeshan> well even if you break a tool
[19:13:56] <zeeshan> you got another army of tools already loaded up
[19:13:58] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder not sure if most machines even have that offset
[19:14:07] <XXCoder> pete I guessed so
[19:14:20] <zeeshan> so you won't loose the coordinate system
[19:14:21] <XXCoder> but I has a new router cnc and trying to think how to setup it and all
[19:14:28] <Tom_itx> if you use a dowel pin as the reference tool you won't have problems even if you break a tool
[19:14:32] <XXCoder> loosen the coord system?
[19:14:55] <zeeshan> yea like say tool 1 and tool 2 were defined relative to table
[19:14:58] <zeeshan> and you snap tool 1
[19:15:01] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: yeah some machines I use use dowel pin tool for finding Z
[19:15:08] <zeeshan> tool 2 can be used to find the table again
[19:15:16] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan also keep in mind that this only really works if you have accurate and repeatable homes and limits I think because the initial position is based off of that.
[19:15:24] <Tom_itx> also use them for locating material in a vise
[19:15:42] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: problem I has is that all machines I use is already configured
[19:15:46] <Tom_itx> bring the dowel down to locate X when loading material
[19:15:50] <XXCoder> I just dont know how to define stuff like home
[19:16:05] <PetefromTn_> all of the tools you setup from this initial setup will be the same but if you do it again say a week later and the original position is off the offsets will also be off.
[19:16:08] <XXCoder> then how to configure tools - say I want to use 123 block for lengths
[19:16:30] <zeeshan> ill try to make a video
[19:16:33] <PetefromTn_> Tom_itx I need to start doing that it sounds like a good idea
[19:16:42] <Tom_itx> it saves time
[19:16:47] <PetefromTn_> there are several parts that I machine that I could probably use that method for
[19:17:04] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: know anything about configuring machine?
[19:17:12] <Tom_itx> just don't forget to subract the dowel from the material length for x
[19:17:18] <Tom_itx> XXCoder a bit
[19:17:19] <XXCoder> I want to use standard 123 block to find lengths for example
[19:17:24] <XXCoder> np
[19:17:31] <PetefromTn_> you mean half the dowel right?
[19:17:36] <Tom_itx> yes
[19:17:40] <Tom_itx> to the center
[19:17:58] <Tom_itx> XXCoder i do that all the time
[19:18:11] <zeeshan> im finalkly about to go in the garage and machine these manifolds !!!!!!!11
[19:18:20] <XXCoder> yeah me too at work but do I need to do anything special when I'm setting up cnc router?
[19:18:24] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/pzgptOJ.jpg
[19:18:27] <zeeshan> tom check this
[19:18:30] <zeeshan> pete you too
[19:18:31] <PetefromTn_> so do you put a point or reference line half the diameter of the dowel pin in your drawings?
[19:18:40] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bhtOOhU.jpg
[19:18:46] <zeeshan> do you think itll hold? :)
[19:18:57] <Tom_itx> time will tell
[19:18:59] <zeeshan> im just weirded out because its a single point of contact on top of the sphere
[19:18:59] <zeeshan> haha
[19:19:02] <os1r1s> zeeshan: Getting closer. The two ones I'm looking at are both 35 degree. But one uses a 55 degree insert and the other an 80 degree insert.
[19:19:14] <os1r1s> So now I just have to figure out how the 35 makes any sense
[19:19:15] <Tom_itx> stronger if you anneal it
[19:19:22] <zeeshan> os1r1s: that means that one of those inserts is clocked more
[19:19:34] <Tom_itx> then harden it all at once
[19:19:47] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan it seems like that clamp is holding at a strange angle to the ball no?
[19:19:47] <zeeshan> os1r1s: bust out the protractor :-)
[19:19:50] <os1r1s> haha
[19:20:09] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: i think its the angle of the picture
[19:20:15] <zeeshan> that very last picture
[19:20:17] <zeeshan> there are no balls
[19:20:26] <zeeshan> i was just trying to show the clamp positions before i added the balls
[19:20:31] <Tom_itx> that should hold ok
[19:20:40] <zeeshan> im afraidf to shift it
[19:20:43] <zeeshan> if i fuck this up
[19:20:45] <zeeshan> im gonna cry
[19:20:45] <Tom_itx> unless the clamp moves
[19:20:53] <PetefromTn_> is the part indexed against that end of the sine plate?
[19:20:54] <zeeshan> ive been working on these manifolds for a long time
[19:20:57] <Tom_itx> which it could
[19:21:03] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: yes
[19:21:09] <PetefromTn_> aah
[19:21:11] <XXCoder> zeeshan: try move clamp by hand?
[19:21:15] <Tom_itx> level out that step clamp
[19:21:18] <Tom_itx> it will do better
[19:21:21] <zeeshan> i tugged on it with no balls
[19:21:26] <zeeshan> (wow that sounds dirty)
[19:21:31] <zeeshan> and the who manifold moved
[19:21:34] <zeeshan> with the balls in there
[19:21:34] <PetefromTn_> I would say just go gentle on it and see how much vibration you get initially will tell you what you need to know
[19:21:39] <zeeshan> i try with full force
[19:21:41] <zeeshan> and it doesnt move
[19:21:54] <PetefromTn_> Tom_itx that is what I was talking about
[19:22:09] <zeeshan> okay ill level it better
[19:22:11] <PetefromTn_> the strap clamp is at a odd angle to the ball and to the manifold plate under it
[19:22:40] <PetefromTn_> but since the end of the manifold is against the end of the sine plate it is probably fine
[19:23:02] <zeeshan> is there a way i can somehow put a back stop
[19:23:07] <zeeshan> like cause im drilling a hole inside that flange
[19:23:10] <XXCoder> Tom_itx: so basically I select a point machine to call home
[19:23:17] <zeeshan> so most of the force is going to try to push the part off the table
[19:24:03] <XXCoder> then just use 123 block on all tools so all offsets is same, find part xyz point then it should work fine?
[19:24:37] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan I thought you were facing that flange
[19:24:42] <XXCoder> and if I decide to change method - say if I stop using 123 blocks and use touch off plate, would programs suddely not work anymore?
[19:24:47] <zeeshan> no
[19:24:49] <zeeshan> im drilling a hole
[19:24:55] <zeeshan> a 1.5" hole
[19:24:55] <zeeshan> :/
[19:24:56] <PetefromTn_> oh with that big bit
[19:25:01] <zeeshan> yes
[19:25:05] <zeeshan> i can do it in steps
[19:25:10] <PetefromTn_> if that grabs you are gonna not be happy anymore
[19:25:14] <zeeshan> haha
[19:25:21] <zeeshan> i was thinking of going 1/2"
[19:25:22] <PetefromTn_> can you switch to a boring head?
[19:25:22] <XXCoder> drill extra slow?
[19:25:23] <zeeshan> then 3/4"
[19:25:26] <zeeshan> no
[19:25:27] <zeeshan> no room :(
[19:25:31] <zeeshan> cant even fit a drill bit in tehre
[19:26:04] <PetefromTn_> damn that could be dicey especially with the geared down spindle spinning slow...SERIOUS torque there
[19:26:05] <zeeshan> i guess i could move the manifold
[19:26:06] <zeeshan> more forward
[19:26:12] <XXCoder> http://www.cimco.com/docs/cncbook/en/Ch06_MachineAndToolOffsets.html
[19:26:14] <XXCoder> HMMM
[19:26:50] <zeeshan> the material is only .180 thick
[19:26:54] <XXCoder> thats method I use at work
[19:26:55] <zeeshan> so not much to remove
[19:26:59] <XXCoder> fixture offset z
[19:27:07] <zeeshan> maybe i should use circular interpolation?
[19:27:11] <zeeshan> vs this big ass end mill
[19:27:20] <PetefromTn_> would be safer
[19:27:28] <XXCoder> tool length offset is method I used at internshi[p
[19:27:45] <zeeshan> cause the drilling force is what will try to shift the clamp
[19:27:49] <zeeshan> but moving it in the Z and X
[19:27:53] <zeeshan> it'll be held against the clamp
[19:27:54] <zeeshan> hmm
[19:28:02] <XXCoder> zeeshan: I do suggest reading http://www.cimco.com/docs/cncbook/en/Ch06_MachineAndToolOffsets.html
[19:28:02] <PetefromTn_> I once was using this bigass champfer bit in some structural steel tube on a knee mill
[19:28:07] <XXCoder> nice info!
[19:28:10] <PetefromTn_> I was going nice and slow
[19:28:23] <zeeshan> did you spin the tube? :-)
[19:28:24] <PetefromTn_> and that SOB grabbed and it ripped the part right out of the fixture
[19:28:29] <zeeshan> fuckl
[19:28:29] <zeeshan> haha
[19:28:32] <zeeshan> dont tell me that
[19:28:32] <PetefromTn_> I am really lucky it did not hit me
[19:28:45] <PetefromTn_> geared down spindles are wonderful for torque
[19:28:52] <PetefromTn_> but they don't stop real fast hehe
[19:29:03] <PetefromTn_> that time can be the scariest of your life believe me
[19:29:04] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: ow
[19:29:14] <zeeshan> iok im adding 4 more clamps
[19:29:17] <zeeshan> after that story
[19:29:26] <PetefromTn_> Just saying
[19:29:32] <XXCoder> clamped clamps ;)
[19:29:33] <XXCoder> jk
[19:29:39] <PetefromTn_> would not want to see you get hurt or damage all that work you already did
[19:29:46] <XXCoder> zee did you check that url?
[19:29:52] <Tom_itx> more isn't necessarily better... make sure they're holding something
[19:30:22] <zeeshan> XXCoder: yes
[19:30:31] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: yes beetter to be safe than sorry
[19:30:38] <zeeshan> i really wanna put these on my car!!
[19:30:44] <zeeshan> not into my face
[19:30:49] <zeeshan> *in
[19:31:11] <PetefromTn_> amazing how quick that can happen ask me how I know....
[19:31:32] <XXCoder> I definitely need to add the sensors for limits
[19:31:41] <XXCoder> I has it but figuring how to attach em lol
[19:31:45] <XXCoder> so it triggers correctly
[19:34:38] <justanotheruser> Is this guide recommended? http://www.cncroutersource.com/homemade-cnc-router.html
[19:35:17] <XXCoder> dunno theres lots guides out there.
[19:36:58] <zeeshan> os1r1s: still there?
[19:37:03] <os1r1s> zeeshan: Yep
[19:37:07] <zeeshan> i tried to draw the angles
[19:37:11] <zeeshan> based on the info that website is giving
[19:38:21] <os1r1s> zeeshan: I was looking at this pic from the wiki. But it isn't helping much ... http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/lathetools.jpg
[19:39:11] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/lAF3KlG.png
[19:39:14] <zeeshan> i tried to draw it
[19:39:23] <zeeshan> :)
[19:39:30] <zeeshan> it makes zero sense
[19:39:32] <zeeshan> the 35 degree
[19:39:38] <zeeshan> especially for the 80 degree insert
[19:40:17] <os1r1s> It really doesn't
[19:40:47] <zeeshan> youd be crashing the tool in the work piece :P
[19:43:49] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/JU7nkWl.png
[19:43:52] <zeeshan> here is solmething that makes more sense
[19:44:37] <XXCoder> I dont get those tools, I use "90 degree" tool that is eprfectly equdistant - that means angles is all 60
[19:45:36] <fenn> justanotheruser: fancy meeting you here
[19:45:58] <XXCoder> ohhh showdown!
[19:46:12] <fenn> i thought he was more of an abstract math person
[19:46:22] <fenn> whip out yer glue gun mate
[19:46:23] <justanotheruser> "he"?
[19:46:34] <fenn> whatever pronoun you prefer
[19:48:21] <fenn> it's now possible to buy a complete (small, and probably terrible) cnc gantry router on ebay for $500
[19:49:35] <fenn> before anyone can advise you what to build and how to build it, they need to know your budget, your skills, and what you want to do with the machine once it's completed
[19:50:11] <XXCoder> yeah and what stuff you got laying around too
[19:50:23] <XXCoder> might need just electrics kit thats $100
[19:50:23] <fenn> the guide you linked to looks like crap to me though
[19:50:40] <XXCoder> or may need everything and probably cheaper just buy machine
[19:51:39] <PetefromTn_> http://www.altdriver.com/general/128-hp-electric-go-kart/ Nice build...
[19:52:09] <XXCoder> fenn: might be good http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wood-router-project-log/127895-cnc-forum.html
[19:53:09] <XXCoder> even better http://www.overclock.net/t/755828/complete-2-x-3-custom-cnc-router-from-80-20-aluminum-extrusion
[19:53:15] <XXCoder> I planned to build this one
[19:53:24] <XXCoder> but realized I dont know enough to build it lol
[19:55:54] <fenn> wow that is quite the contraption on the leadscrew thrust bearing
[19:58:25] <fenn> where are you supposed to get the "extended rail carriages" from? it looks like a custom machined part
[19:58:39] <justanotheruser> fenn: No, I was just wondering if you were referring to me
[19:58:48] <XXCoder> fenn: theres one store that has it
[19:58:53] <XXCoder> but yeah decided not to go for it
[19:59:27] <justanotheruser> I'm not so much an abstract math person as I am a learn2hplus person
[20:00:35] <justanotheruser> fenn: which guide should I use instead?
[20:00:55] <fenn> what's your budget, skills and goals
[20:01:07] <fenn> also i have no idea what guides are out there
[20:01:17] <XXCoder> in many cases if youre starting with nothing, its just ebtter to get cheap chinese cnc
[20:01:43] <fenn> yeah these chinese routers didn't exist when many of these guides were written
[20:01:59] <fenn> relatively recent phenomenon
[20:02:16] <justanotheruser> fenn: budget is however much I want to allocate away from other expenses, somewhere between $500 and $2k ideally
[20:04:43] <XXCoder> 2k just buy machine stright up from aliexpress or sometjong
[20:05:29] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: mill, router or some other cnc?
[20:07:01] <justanotheruser> router
[20:07:11] <XXCoder> ok lemme see examples
[20:07:14] <XXCoder> second
[20:09:04] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/cnc-router-cuttting-machine-3020-1-5kw-water-cooling-spindle-water-cooled-cnc-router-spindle-motor/32395782692.html
[20:10:56] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/800W-3Axis-drill-router-for-PVC-Aluminum-etc-engraving/32287722980.html
[20:11:02] <XXCoder> much larger one
[20:11:18] <XXCoder> 2'x3'
[20:11:45] <XXCoder> spindle is water cooled , should last better
[20:12:34] <XXCoder> oh - Working dimensions 600*400*90mm
[20:12:56] <XXCoder> 2'x1.25'x probably 9 inches. still bit larger than mine lol
[20:26:36] <PetefromTn_> question for you cad guys
[20:26:43] <PetefromTn_> in autocad based programs
[20:26:53] <PetefromTn_> if you had two random circles
[20:27:14] <PetefromTn_> say one a t 0.0 and another....somewhere else
[20:27:36] <PetefromTn_> is it possible to draw a line tangent to the outside of both of them at the same time somehow?
[20:28:01] <justanotheruser> XXCoder: that 2nd one is $122k
[20:28:15] <justanotheruser> also, isn't it more fun to build your own? :)
[20:30:20] <XXCoder> whoa!!
[20:30:28] <XXCoder> didnt see shipping, justanotheruser that is just insane4
[20:30:36] <justanotheruser> XXCoder: it seems like a scam
[20:30:49] <XXCoder> it is, shipping scdam
[20:30:50] <justanotheruser> anyways, if aliexpress has routers with very low margins I'll consider
[20:31:01] <XXCoder> yeah I got mine for $500 shipped
[20:31:16] <XXCoder> just a frame, I already had most stuff other than frame
[20:31:23] <fenn> identical machine on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Axis-CNC-Router-Engraver-3020T-Engraving-Drilling-Milling-Machine-Metalworking-/121137902050
[20:31:26] <XXCoder> just wish I didnt buy 43 mm router clamp one arrgh
[20:32:22] <justanotheruser> I am interested in one with very high precision as we spoke of yesterday
[20:32:34] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: oh yeah
[20:32:37] <XXCoder> what size you need?
[20:32:58] <justanotheruser> precision or dimensions?
[20:33:03] <XXCoder> dimensions
[20:33:35] <justanotheruser> I suspect I will use this for more than making small mechanical components, so I would like a large area. I was interested in DIY because I could just expand it myself when I need to
[20:34:11] <XXCoder> my earlier 2'x3' isnt bad if you already has some machines to make some parts
[20:34:30] <XXCoder> not aliexpress but 8020 how to build. it will cost bit more though
[20:34:56] <fenn> are the chinese producing 8020 knockoffs yet
[20:35:17] <XXCoder> nah extrusions is good for home hobbist but not most cost effective
[20:35:28] <fenn> but the extrusions are so expensive
[20:35:48] <XXCoder> yeah like I said not very cost effective
[20:37:15] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wood-Lathe-3040-Cnc-Router-Milling-Machine-with-43mm-bracket-Mechanical-Kit-Aluminium-Alloy-Frame/32279070195.html
[20:37:19] <XXCoder> thats what I bought
[20:37:30] <XXCoder> not recommanded as it has hard to use 43 mm clamp
[20:37:36] <XXCoder> tht seller is nice though
[20:38:41] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/NEW-3020-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-AND-MILLING-MACHINE/512815_1613454595.html
[20:38:44] <XXCoder> complete kit
[20:39:48] <justanotheruser> I like the looks of it
[20:40:24] <justanotheruser> I'm interested in building it from scratch or a previous design though
[20:41:16] <fenn> PetefromTn_: in librecad you do Draw->Line->Tangent (C,C) and there are two options when you mouse over the circles (usually the first one that shows up is the one you want)
[20:41:24] <justanotheruser> I'm a bit confused though, why is the surface a bunch of lined up extrusions rather than a single piece?
[20:41:31] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: then one of those 8020 plans is better
[20:41:43] <XXCoder> cheap way to do surface that is mountable
[20:41:51] <fenn> er, there are actually 4 tangent lines, not 2
[20:42:17] <justanotheruser> can't they just have one thick sheet of metal with screw holes in the side?
[20:42:22] <justanotheruser> or would that not be as sturdy?
[20:42:31] <XXCoder> dunno
[20:42:39] <XXCoder> iyt works fine though
[20:43:25] <justanotheruser> well sure it works fine, I'm just curious about the design decision
[20:43:46] <XXCoder> yea
[20:44:10] <justanotheruser> I really like the looks of the 80/20 plans
[20:44:11] <fenn> PetefromTn_: http://fennetic.net/irc/librecad_tangent_lines.png
[20:44:34] <XXCoder> oh yeah lemme find that one..
[20:44:45] <justanotheruser> I have it I think
[20:44:54] <justanotheruser> if this is the official page http://www.8020cnc.com/
[20:44:57] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/complete-2-x3-router-kit
[20:45:07] <XXCoder> all you need is electrics kit
[20:45:18] <XXCoder> and well surfae of some sort lol
[20:45:56] <XXCoder> https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/4-axis-electronics-kit
[20:46:13] <XXCoder> cheaper elsewhere though my entire kit cost me couple hundred lol
[20:46:46] <justanotheruser> it doesn't come with a spindle or electronics?
[20:46:58] <XXCoder> nope
[20:46:58] <justanotheruser> That metal looks like it could be bought for 1/4th the price
[20:47:25] <XXCoder> its other stuff that costs. but yeah cheaper if you just stright up buy extrusions
[20:47:33] <XXCoder> expecially if you are lucky and has local supply!!
[20:47:41] <XXCoder> look for 8020 extrusions
[20:47:46] <fenn> justanotheruser: also note that "8020" is one of those things like "kleenex" or "coke" that doesn't really have a generic name
[20:48:07] <justanotheruser> tissue and soda?
[20:48:18] <fenn> i guess the generic name would be "t-slot extrusion"
[20:48:52] <PetefromTn_> fenn thanks man I figured it out already
[20:49:08] <XXCoder> justanotheruser: yeh one you linked to is very good
[20:49:13] <justanotheruser> great
[20:49:14] <XXCoder> expensive
[20:49:35] <justanotheruser> why expensive
[20:49:43] <XXCoder> oh wait a sec
[20:49:54] <justanotheruser> It is a guide, there is no kit afaics?
[20:50:06] <XXCoder> yeah not right one. that ones very good though too
[20:50:25] <justanotheruser> where do you guys source your hardware?
[20:50:29] <justanotheruser> home depot? Online?
[20:50:38] <XXCoder> for me aliexpress or amazon unfortunately
[20:50:50] <XXCoder> since 8020 is heavy and shipping tend to be more than beams themselves
[20:51:02] <justanotheruser> do you not have a hardware store nearby?
[20:51:14] <XXCoder> not one that has 8020s
[20:52:47] <justanotheruser> perhaps I should check my lowes and home depot for them
[20:52:53] <fenn> unlikely
[20:53:03] <XXCoder> they those stores dont supply em
[20:53:11] <justanotheruser> what kind of store would supply them?
[20:53:20] <XXCoder> I have yet to find one
[20:53:47] <justanotheruser> what are they used for other than 3d printers and cnc machines
[20:53:48] <XXCoder> I would love to have some, I want to build frame for my cnc router for dust chips so on
[20:54:00] <XXCoder> lots actually
[20:54:05] <fenn> it's very common in factory automation and laboratories
[20:54:14] <justanotheruser> so perhaps an industrial supply store?
[20:54:24] <XXCoder> my work theres BIG rail system to transport parts to and from cnc machines, and they use 8020 to build cage around it
[20:54:29] <XXCoder> possibly
[20:54:38] <justanotheruser> The next city over has an auto plant
[20:54:48] <justanotheruser> maybe I can beg them for some
[20:55:08] <fenn> get a free car while you're there
[20:55:24] <justanotheruser> yeah
[20:55:24] <XXCoder> lol
[20:55:40] <justanotheruser> I'm gonna get a new car soon
[20:55:40] <XXCoder> I would love to get free car even if few years behind
[20:55:50] <XXCoder> because its still much newer than my 1996 van lol
[20:55:59] <justanotheruser> maybe I can tell the dealer to package some 8020s with ti
[20:56:20] <justanotheruser> I'm probably just going to end up asking a bunch of industrial supply stores if they have them
[20:57:09] <XXCoder> 8020.net says nearest ones for me is seattle.. or seattle.
[20:58:33] <XXCoder> I hate sites where has quotes and no porices
[21:00:05] <justanotheruser> 2 hour drive there and back
[21:00:11] <justanotheruser> to the nearest
[21:00:18] * justanotheruser is getting ahead of himself
[21:00:28] <XXCoder> dang yer lucky
[21:00:30] <XXCoder> lol
[21:00:40] <XXCoder> what state you in, if in usa?
[21:00:50] <XXCoder> washington state, near inlet sea lol
[21:01:52] <XXCoder> finally found prices http://www.sunsourceconnect.com/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=140&cd=2&SBCatPage=
[21:02:09] <justanotheruser> surely companies other than 8020 produce these, right?
[21:02:34] <XXCoder> 8020 dont make em I think actually
[21:02:38] <XXCoder> they just control specs
[21:02:43] <XXCoder> other companies make em
[21:02:57] <justanotheruser> oh
[21:03:09] <XXCoder> could be wrong
[21:03:34] <fenn> there are other brands that are merely overpriced instead of outrageously overpriced
[21:03:45] <XXCoder> like?
[21:05:09] <fenn> blah it's all "request a quote"
[21:05:11] <justanotheruser> the actual 8020 headquarters are relatively close to me
[21:05:30] <XXCoder> fenn: yeah I hate that
[21:05:56] <justanotheruser> maybe I could get a tour of their headquarters and get some free samples as a parting gift
[21:06:09] <justanotheruser> maybe I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
[21:06:37] <XXCoder> bleh
[21:06:39] <XXCoder> lucky ya
[21:07:33] <fenn> 5.5MB pdf http://www.tslots.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TSLOTSPriceList_12115.pdf
[21:07:34] <justanotheruser> I'm surprised hardware stores don't sell these, they're very useful
[21:08:04] <fenn> things range from $0.2 to $3 per inch
[21:08:11] <XXCoder> fancy
[21:08:16] <XXCoder> so lets see
[21:08:25] <XXCoder> longest one I would need is 8 foot
[21:08:36] <XXCoder> bleh lunux calc sucks
[21:08:51] <XXCoder> meh just round to 100 inches
[21:09:02] <fenn> a 2x4 is $1.13/inch
[21:09:18] <XXCoder> whoa
[21:09:21] <XXCoder> pdf is weird
[21:09:24] <XXCoder> I cant select a line
[21:09:58] <XXCoder> wsuppose I wanted beefy frame
[21:10:15] <fenn> then dont make it out of t-slot
[21:10:20] <XXCoder> so it is 2x100"x$1.8 approx
[21:10:31] <XXCoder> $360
[21:11:12] <XXCoder> thats just sides lol
[21:11:12] <XXCoder> honestly 1530 would do
[21:11:12] <XXCoder> $200
[21:11:14] <XXCoder> for sides, half size, $100
[21:11:30] <XXCoder> actually add another half length for attaching screw
[21:11:37] <XXCoder> $350 so far
[21:11:59] <XXCoder> probably couple thousand for 8'x4'
[21:12:03] <XXCoder> work space
[21:13:38] <fenn> i want to learn more about building machines from concrete
[21:13:49] <XXCoder> or epoxy granite?
[21:14:49] <fenn> i guess epoxy granite is preferred because it doesn't change shape after hardening
[21:15:04] <XXCoder> looks awesome too.
[21:15:33] <XXCoder> I want to try making aluminium chip epoxy for fun
[21:15:33] <XXCoder> statue of some kind. not for one of those wrackos on "aura" or something
[21:15:51] <fenn> pyramids
[21:16:05] <fenn> orgone blaster holy hand grenade, die satanists die!!!
[21:16:08] <XXCoder> yeah with crystals, copper spirls so on. so laughable
[21:16:32] <fenn> i made one to see if it did anything
[21:17:03] <fenn> i got some weird ice cubes in the freezer
[21:17:21] <XXCoder> lol
[21:17:43] <fenn> success?
[21:18:07] <XXCoder> maybe?
[21:18:08] <XXCoder> http://www.spandanayoga.com/orgone_pyramid.jpg
[21:18:11] <XXCoder> looks awesome
[21:18:23] <XXCoder> too bad people think woowoo stuff happens due to this.
[21:25:44] <XXCoder> nyway
[21:25:45] <XXCoder> epoxy is bit pricy
[21:25:45] <XXCoder> so yeah waiting on it for later lol
[21:27:01] <fenn> so i think there's a place for cheap concrete tools with drawer slides etc
[21:27:14] <XXCoder> yeah
[21:27:30] <XXCoder> saw a project online about cnc router with drawer slides and mdf
[21:27:32] <XXCoder> impressive
[21:27:39] <fenn> or some other type of bearing, but you get the idea
[21:27:45] <XXCoder> precision wasnt too high, like .001"?
[21:27:55] <XXCoder> .003" maybe
[21:28:07] <fenn> the point is most of these DIY machines are severely lacking in 1) mass and 2) rigidity because they don't have enough material in them
[21:28:42] <fenn> also concrete is anisotropic which helps cut down on chatter even more
[21:28:45] <XXCoder> yeah depends on what use for
[21:28:54] <XXCoder> anti-vibration?
[21:29:27] <fenn> vibration is usually what limits how deep of a cut you can take
[21:29:48] <XXCoder> what does anisotropic nean
[21:29:58] <fenn> it's a conglomerate of different materials
[21:30:02] <XXCoder> ahh
[21:32:27] <fenn> isotropy means "same in all directions" so a block of cheddar cheese is isotropic but a block of wood is not
[21:33:01] <XXCoder> makes sense
[21:33:43] <XXCoder> so other word basically means different in every direction (unlike wood which is basically same for same side but different on different surface)
[21:35:02] <fenn> wood is stronger with the grain than against it
[21:35:16] <fenn> reinforced concrete is stronger with the grain than against it
[21:36:09] <fenn> because the rebar has a different young's modulus than the sand and rock, when you flex a beam the parts rub against each other inside the material and dissipate energy
[21:37:27] <fenn> also the different fillings have different densities which scatters acoustic waves
[21:38:00] <fenn> it's like how index of refraction differences cause light to scatter
[21:40:52] <XXCoder> hmm
[21:41:08] <XXCoder> heh bit tough concept
[21:41:15] <XXCoder> so concerete scatters acoustic waves
[21:41:20] <XXCoder> so result: less vibration
[21:41:24] <XXCoder> while wood dont
[21:44:35] <SpeedEvil> That rather depends on the wood, and the orientation
[21:45:20] <SpeedEvil> (s)
[21:46:24] <archivist> and if it is designed to be a sounding board (guitar)
[21:47:22] <fenn> the wavelengths we are interested in are much larger than the aggregate in concrete though, so most of the vibration reduction is due to mass
[21:47:47] <XXCoder> fenn: what about rubber balls that dont bounce?
[21:48:02] <XXCoder> that special rubber-like material that eats vibration and turn it to heat
[21:48:03] <fenn> is this about viscoelastic shear
[21:48:41] <XXCoder> dunno?
[21:50:05] <XXCoder> I know old volkwagon beetles used em
[21:50:12] <XXCoder> inside doors and such so its quieter
[21:50:28] <fenn> a substance with low tensile strength but high ductility will easily deform and dissipate energy internally as heat because bonds are being broken
[21:51:16] <fenn> i'm still learning about metallurgy and what makes alloys have particular properties
[21:51:33] <XXCoder> cool
[21:52:04] <fenn> anyway the car soundproofing works because there is a difference in material properties between the sheet metal of the door and the viscous rubber-like sheet
[21:52:37] <fenn> as the sheet metal flexes it stretches the rubber sheet like taffy
[21:52:54] <XXCoder> finally found it
[21:52:56] <XXCoder> Butyl rubber
[21:53:25] <fenn> it's probably under-vulcanized so it's not really butyl rubber
[21:54:33] <XXCoder> I wonder if I could buy some and stick in bottom to eat some vibration
[21:54:51] <XXCoder> http://www.mcmaster.com/#butyl-rubber-sheet-stock/=y4m075
[21:55:26] <XXCoder> interesting idea but doubt I will do it lol
[21:56:26] <fenn> they sell something called "sorbothane" which is more like what you want
[21:56:46] <XXCoder> not really want actually
[21:56:53] <fenn> and 3M makes a special purpose viscoelastic tape
[21:56:54] <XXCoder> just tought up and wondered lol
[22:00:17] <fenn> this is a cool article from many years ago about MIT precision engineering research group http://demg.penton.com/content/am/out_of_the_box.pdf
[22:00:52] <XXCoder> its over 20 years old
[22:00:54] <fenn> about viscoelastic shear damping and concrete machine tools
[22:01:33] <XXCoder> interesting read so far
[22:02:02] <XXCoder> "The viscous-shear damper,
[22:02:02] <XXCoder> in contrast, is frequency
[22:02:02] <XXCoder> insensitive"
[22:05:14] <XXCoder> bit hard to follow lol but interesting
[22:17:17] <fenn> i thought this was neat too, from the same lab: http://pergatory.mit.edu/research/Cortesi/index.html
[22:18:54] <fenn> the linear motor provides downward force to keep the sliding part from lifting up, so there are only 2 bearing surfaces
[22:21:34] <fenn> anyway, air bearings on a cast concrete surface can be a good way to do "ways"
[22:23:25] <XXCoder> yeah
[22:23:41] <fenn> the proof of concept prototype used magnets instead of linear motors to keep the parts aligned
[22:23:44] <XXCoder> I used fractionless (very nearly) rail at lab for physics
[22:23:44] <XXCoder> fun
[22:25:49] <fenn> granite countertops are also easy to come by and sometimes flat and accurate
[22:26:24] <XXCoder> fenn: talking about that
[22:26:40] <XXCoder> recently company hired guys come in and regrind Surfaces
[22:26:42] <XXCoder> amazing
[22:26:58] <XXCoder> one I usually use was new so passed, but other one was .004 off
[22:27:00] <XXCoder> wavey
[22:27:10] <XXCoder> it was so bad guy took hours to regrind it
[22:27:23] <fenn> did they do it by hand?
[22:27:25] <XXCoder> its now .00019 wavey
[22:27:31] <XXCoder> yeah with BIG block of alum
[22:27:37] <XXCoder> with white powder
[22:27:55] <XXCoder> then smaller block with some kinda sandpaper
[22:28:05] <XXCoder> then something finer so it got to .00019
[22:55:30] <XXCoder> cat it up http://cubiclebot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/catzooka.gif
[22:59:16] <XXCoder> ok that is weird
[22:59:22] <XXCoder> seller says it is er8
[22:59:34] <XXCoder> I gonna borrow work one, with permission and see
[23:15:12] <furrywolf> obvious editing in that animation.
[23:15:41] <XXCoder> oh really? LOL I know. 3 cats being same is olvious
[23:16:35] <XXCoder> besides few misaligns of videos
[23:16:48] <XXCoder> though I wanna try something like that, wonder how he edited video
[23:17:46] <furrywolf> dunno what tools he used, but you can see the cat suddenly appear inside the tube in one frame.
[23:18:06] <furrywolf> probably just merged three sequential videos together
[23:18:13] <XXCoder> yeah
[23:18:27] <XXCoder> worse error is edit inside hole of air blaster
[23:18:37] <XXCoder> olviously to hide cat sitting inside
[23:19:00] <furrywolf> also, poor cat. lol
[23:19:05] <XXCoder> yeah
[23:19:11] <XXCoder> I guess it jumped out
[23:19:22] <furrywolf> yep
[23:19:27] <furrywolf> and got stuffed in again.
[23:19:58] <XXCoder> yeah
[23:20:49] <XXCoder> I wonder how he get together 2 shootings
[23:21:10] <XXCoder> I think I see cut between aiming and shooting second cat
[23:21:48] <XXCoder> or maybe he just held "blaster" at same place and let cat jump out, and edited in only cat
[23:22:13] <XXCoder> not easy to figure how he did it
[23:22:35] <XXCoder> I have that toy actually, its fun lol rarely play with it but fun
[23:22:48] <XXCoder> even shot it off in water
[23:23:02] <XXCoder> very still water, took me 30 minutes of just chilling at one end
[23:23:48] <XXCoder> then took it underwater and shot it. ring got huge at end lol only could see two tiny whirls on top slowly moving forward and get futher and further apart too lol
[23:23:53] <furrywolf> what is it?
[23:24:00] <XXCoder> it makes air donut
[23:24:15] <XXCoder> it moves fast and quite a long distance
[23:25:05] <XXCoder> http://www.adorablekidsdressup.com/product/Airzooka.html
[23:25:40] <XXCoder> its easy to make one yourself, almost full decade before I got that, I made cannon air blaster
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> it worked so well I could hit targets 20m away
[23:27:09] <XXCoder> furrywolf: what you do is take a tin that comes with plastic lid, open one tin on both ends, use whatever it contained whatever you like
[23:27:19] <XXCoder> then put lids on both ends, cutting small hole at one end
[23:27:30] <XXCoder> use it like drum, it will shoot donut
[23:27:41] <furrywolf> I have a honda water pump that shoots out perfect smoke rings from the exhaust.
[23:27:55] <furrywolf> it burns a LOT of oil. the smoke rings fly about ten feet then lazily settle.
[23:28:07] <XXCoder> it takes a bit to learn how to do aim and hit "drum" side to make good donuts
[23:28:11] <XXCoder> lol
[23:28:19] <XXCoder> I remember my bro truck
[23:28:26] <XXCoder> it made donuts each few minutes
[23:28:46] <furrywolf> the seal between the pump and the engine went out, and filled the block with water. it's never been quite not-a-piece-of-crap since.
[23:29:22] <XXCoder> http://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/physicsathome/cannon.cfm
[23:29:35] <XXCoder> ouch
[23:29:58] <XXCoder> that site instructs to hole hole on metal itself
[23:30:02] <XXCoder> I just used lid lol
[23:30:43] <furrywolf> "scissors or sturdy knife (Caution: Ask an adult to help you use these tools)" ... seriously? anyone who can read the web page can use basic pointy objects.
[23:30:57] <XXCoder> lawsuits.
[23:31:54] <XXCoder> anyway theory is simple, just need one end that suddenly decrease volume
[23:32:03] <XXCoder> and other end with clean circle near center
[23:32:15] <XXCoder> sharp or jags cause short life
[23:32:30] <furrywolf> " Anything flexible makes a good target: your friend’s hair, posters, cats, candles" ...If you have a fog machine, then you can observe the shape of the toroidal vortex created by your air cannon. You can also put some flour inside the bucket and shake it up to simulate fog." now if you want fun, do both a candle AND flour. :P
[23:33:48] <XXCoder> https://youtu.be/QrgTtZXuj4w lol
[23:34:42] <XXCoder> 3 pigs
[23:34:57] <XXCoder> lets see if brick house pig lives this time
[23:35:31] <XXCoder> nope, but then structure sucks
[23:37:24] <XXCoder> trash can cannon https://youtu.be/QrgTtZXuj4w
[23:37:33] <XXCoder> er https://youtu.be/JkSunujURI0
[23:39:22] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49r9wFkDgo what would happen if you followed their suggestions of filling it with flour and aiming it at a candle.
[23:40:11] <XXCoder> looking
[23:40:39] <XXCoder> they suggested it? jeez
[23:40:51] <furrywolf> not intentionally. :P
[23:41:15] <furrywolf> in one spot they suggested aiming it at candles. in another spot they suggested filling it with flour to make a visible ring.
[23:41:26] <XXCoder> ahh impiling aim it there
[23:41:53] <furrywolf> if you do both of those suggestions... it becomes much more entertaining.
[23:42:04] <XXCoder> it cn be fun
[23:42:10] <XXCoder> just carefully done
[23:42:25] <XXCoder> or firemen come in join fun too
[23:43:54] <furrywolf> most people who don't live near grain silos seem to have no idea just how explosive fine dust can be.
[23:44:13] <furrywolf> grain dust, flour, coal dust, sawdust, etc, etc...
[23:44:29] <XXCoder> yeah
[23:44:40] <XXCoder> I kwow it from knowing history
[23:45:02] <XXCoder> one of big explosions in factory was due to fine wood dust slowly building up
[23:54:47] <furrywolf> there's been a lot of big explosions in factories from dust