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[00:00:08] <XXCoder> my machine is fancy eh lol
[00:00:15] <zeeshan> i was thinking maybe the software is giving me diameter
[00:00:16] <zeeshan> and not radius
[00:00:23] <zeeshan> but i tried multiplying the data by 2 and it didnt fix
[00:00:37] <furrywolf> "the software"?
[00:00:55] <zeeshan> the strain measuring software
[00:00:56] <zeeshan> using dic
[00:01:36] <furrywolf> my eye-based rough estimation shows those curves are just scaling in x and y different from each other, and generally similar.
[00:02:33] <zeeshan> if its a scale factor
[00:02:40] <zeeshan> i should be able to multiply the green curve by a factor
[00:02:53] <zeeshan> lemme try
[00:04:03] <furrywolf> so you're using "stress(t) = currentPressure(t)*currentRadius(t) / (2*currentThickness(t))"... pressure is measured, radius is computed by this mystery software, thickness is computed based on a patch of a sphere of the computed radius and diameter the size of the hole in the test rig?
[00:04:46] <furrywolf> and the before-stretching measured thickness of the material?
[00:04:46] <zeeshan> thickness comes from the fact that
[00:04:50] <zeeshan> like think of it like this
[00:04:53] <zeeshan> you got a cube
[00:04:57] <zeeshan> when you load it up
[00:05:01] <zeeshan> it'll strain in 3 directions
[00:05:23] <zeeshan> in the case of a biaxial tensile test, i am measuring the strain in 2 directions (in a planar element)
[00:05:54] <zeeshan> since we know the material is incompressible, strain_direction1 + strain_direction2 + strain_direction3 = 0
[00:06:04] <zeeshan> meaning strain3 = -(strain1+strain2)
[00:06:20] <zeeshan> since i know strain1, and strain2, i know strain3.
[00:06:27] <furrywolf> I mean, what value are you using for current thickness? my guess would be something like (area of circle in test rig) / (area of patch with the diameter of the circle, on the side of a sphere of the computed radius) * (unstretched thickness)?
[00:06:28] <zeeshan> strain 3 is in the "thickness" direction
[00:06:49] <zeeshan> which means you can figure out the currentThickness by multiplying initial thickness * e^(-strain3)
[00:06:52] <furrywolf> eh? your material is compressable. and stretchable, which compresses it.
[00:07:13] <zeeshan> no it's not
[00:07:28] <zeeshan> an example of a compressible material is say aluminum foam
[00:07:44] <zeeshan> its got air pockets which can compress
[00:08:05] <zeeshan> ttake a sheet of plastic
[00:08:12] <zeeshan> a flat sheet
[00:08:22] <zeeshan> pull it in 2 directions from each of it's corners
[00:08:25] <zeeshan> what happens to it?
[00:08:28] <zeeshan> it thins in the middle
[00:08:35] <furrywolf> it stretches and gets thinner
[00:08:38] <zeeshan> yes
[00:08:51] <zeeshan> aluminum foam would thin but would also "pop"
[00:08:57] <zeeshan> and compress air pockets
[00:08:59] <furrywolf> ok, I was using a different definition of compressable than you.
[00:09:18] <zeeshan> so my material is .008" thick initially
[00:09:27] <furrywolf> you're using it just to say it has a constant volume, not to say that it can't be squished.
[00:09:27] <XXCoder> dang. this kid wins basketball forever.
https://youtu.be/NH-UDR2tVOY
[00:09:48] <zeeshan> sorry this material is 0.005" initial
[00:09:53] <zeeshan> by failure it's 0.0022"
[00:10:07] <zeeshan> furrywolf: exactly
[00:10:27] <furrywolf> so, again, how are you computing it? my initial guess of how to compute it looks like what I typed above...
[00:10:44] <zeeshan> just as you described it
[00:10:58] <zeeshan> the software i use gives me strain1, strain2
[00:11:11] <zeeshan> and i know the radius of curvuture
[00:11:13] <zeeshan> of the sphere
[00:11:45] <furrywolf> strain1 and strain2 being the measured paths across the surface of the sample in x and y?
[00:12:21] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/D51v3y0.jpg
[00:12:29] <zeeshan> strain 1 and 2
[00:12:46] <zeeshan> is how much each one of those grids stretchs
[00:12:57] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/2VoQR29.jpg
[00:12:59] <zeeshan> better image
[00:14:07] <zeeshan> im gonna try repeating the tensile test
[00:14:11] <zeeshan> on a smaller tensile tester
[00:14:15] <furrywolf> so, as I said, measuring the length of a path across the surface of the sphere, in each direction? :)
[00:14:30] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i didnt say yes to that because that isn't exctly correct
[00:14:34] <furrywolf> make sure your stretch rate is the same, in case you have creep in your material
[00:14:49] <zeeshan> yea its the same
[00:15:11] <zeeshan> if you stretch that piece of flat plastic in both directions
[00:15:19] <zeeshan> and you square in the middle of it
[00:15:54] <furrywolf> you're using stereo correlation to get the depth data, right?
[00:15:59] <zeeshan> if the material was "isotropic (has the same material properties in all directions)", you would notice the square would become a larger square
[00:16:21] <zeeshan> but if it was anisotropic , you'd notice the square would not only become a rectangle
[00:16:27] <zeeshan> but also start looking like a diamond
[00:16:49] <zeeshan> so the software looks at both translation and rotation
[00:17:17] <zeeshan> then using fancy mathematics you transform them back to a principal state
[00:17:39] <furrywolf> or are you using a laser scanner or something else fancy?
[00:17:50] <zeeshan> stereo correlation
[00:18:06] <zeeshan> i trust the system very much
[00:18:14] <zeeshan> previously i used it on metals
[00:18:22] <zeeshan> and i got very consistent results with published papers
[00:18:40] <furrywolf> have you verified calibration? i.e. put a piece of metal with a 123 block or something on it, and verified it measures exactly 1"?
[00:18:52] <zeeshan> before you use it
[00:19:01] <zeeshan> you gotta calibrate it with an objective
[00:19:13] <zeeshan> you move this odd grid shaped piece back and force
[00:19:14] <zeeshan> *forth
[00:19:20] <zeeshan> at angles, , rotatate it
[00:19:28] <zeeshan> and it figures out the deviation of the cameras etc
[00:19:42] <zeeshan> its a pretty cool system
[00:20:13] <furrywolf> heh. the stereo correlation software I've written was much more old-fashioned... scale its results by whatever makes a calibration object come out the right size. :P
[00:21:13] <furrywolf> so you're confident that if it's measuring 1" displacement from your sample plane, the sample has stretched exactly 1", right?
[00:21:20] <zeeshan> yes
[00:21:26] <zeeshan> within .02 mm!
[00:21:45] <furrywolf> just checking, because that's a very easy way to get data that's the right shape but scaled wrong...
[00:22:45] <furrywolf> most of my work with stereo correlation was on outdoor scenes, and getting things right is much harder. lol
[00:22:51] <furrywolf> and sooooo much noise...
[00:23:21] <zeeshan> i kinda wanna go to lab right now
[00:23:31] <zeeshan> and see if the software is outputting diameter
[00:23:32] <zeeshan> or radius !
[00:24:01] <zeeshan> using imaging outside is crazy
[00:24:03] <zeeshan> the lighting is always changing
[00:24:04] <furrywolf> easy enough to verify if you have accurate displacement information. :P
[00:24:12] <zeeshan> unfortuantely no displacement on me
[00:24:19] <furrywolf> well, the math is fucking hard, but the concept is easy. :P
[00:24:32] <XXCoder> concepts almost always easier
[00:24:34] <furrywolf> especially since you have two radiuses and an elipsoid...
[00:24:43] <XXCoder> e=mc2 is easy to understand what it means
[00:24:47] <XXCoder> but math behind it...
[00:25:13] * zeeshan doesnt want to brag
[00:25:15] <zeeshan> but i think the math is easy
[00:25:29] <zeeshan> the hard part is coming up with an equation that describes your behaviour
[00:25:33] <furrywolf> lol
[00:25:37] <XXCoder> I'm pretty damn good on math, or in least was lol
[00:25:45] <XXCoder> but conception is almost always easier
[00:26:00] <zeeshan> ill give you a simple example
[00:26:13] <zeeshan> you got a motor hooked through a solid coupling (making a life a bit easier)
[00:26:19] <zeeshan> to a transmission
[00:26:25] <zeeshan> that spins a fan
[00:26:28] <zeeshan> now you gotta control that fan speed
[00:26:35] <zeeshan> come up with a mathematical model for your control system
[00:27:05] <furrywolf> you have a section of an elipsoid, and you need to figure out the two radiuses, given a height map of the surface of that section. first of all, any measurements will have to be done with least-mean-square regression, since reality is never perfect....
[00:27:44] <zeeshan> im not visualizing this right
[00:27:50] <zeeshan> so you have a surface
[00:28:01] <zeeshan> that has part of an ellipsoid
[00:28:14] <furrywolf> heh, there was a time when I would have called this math easy, but I haven't done any math like this in a long time. heh.
[00:28:41] <zeeshan> could you not do a best fit scheme in 2 directions
[00:28:46] <XXCoder> zeeshan: you use calculus?
[00:28:50] <XXCoder> or differial calculus
[00:28:51] <zeeshan> and get the radius of curvuture like that?
[00:28:56] <zeeshan> both
[00:29:11] <furrywolf> zeeshan: you can indeed, if your linear algebra is up to snuff.
[00:29:11] <XXCoder> calculus I used to be good but never took class on latter
[00:29:40] <zeeshan> calc is just like linear algebra
[00:29:43] <zeeshan> which is just like arithmetic
[00:29:46] <zeeshan> another tool to solve a problem
[00:30:03] <zeeshan> how useful those tools are upto you :)
[00:30:10] <zeeshan> some people think a vernier caliper is more useful than a micrometer
[00:30:11] <zeeshan> :D
[00:30:20] <furrywolf> and like all tools, you first need to know how to use them, and you'll get in trouble if you don't. :P
[00:30:24] <zeeshan> haha
[00:30:32] <zeeshan> like using a micrometer as a c-clamp?
[00:30:46] <XXCoder> zee vernier caliper and mm well both has its uses
[00:30:51] <furrywolf> lol
[00:30:55] <zeeshan> XXCoder: im generalizing :P
[00:31:01] <XXCoder> c clamp sure arent one of em lol
[00:31:04] <zeeshan> math really takes a long time to frigging learn
[00:31:08] <zeeshan> and a lot of practice
[00:31:27] <furrywolf> your software is outputting two radiuses, since you have an ellipsoid, right?
[00:31:39] <zeeshan> no
[00:31:41] <zeeshan> its a sphere
[00:31:58] <furrywolf> your nonisotropic material inflates to a sphere?
[00:32:07] <zeeshan> this one does
[00:32:17] <zeeshan> the smp doesn't
[00:32:26] <zeeshan> but you can say with a certain error band your data is valid
[00:32:33] <furrywolf> ok, so you're using an isotropic material now. :)
[00:32:33] <zeeshan> the way i did it was fit 2 spheres
[00:32:37] <zeeshan> to find the range of error
[00:32:38] <zeeshan> its like 5%
[00:32:40] <zeeshan> but a big deal
[00:32:48] <zeeshan> *not
[00:33:19] <furrywolf> is it really a sphere, or does constraining the material in a clamp result in some shape that superficially looks like a sphere but isn't?
[00:33:40] <zeeshan> im only looking at the pole of the material
[00:33:45] <zeeshan> its very close to a sphere there
[00:34:09] <XXCoder> theres infinite shapes that has sphere-like top
[00:34:15] <zeeshan> XXCoder: want to learn calculus?
[00:34:22] <XXCoder> I learned it
[00:34:30] <XXCoder> then forgot it since then lol
[00:34:32] <furrywolf> ok. because it seems to me the clamp is preventing the material from expanding spherically... I don't know what the name of the shape is, but it seems like it'll be stretching non-spherically the closer you get to the clamp.
[00:34:35] <zeeshan> the best book in the world
[00:34:41] <zeeshan> "calculus early transcedentals"
[00:35:26] <zeeshan> furrywolf: youre imagining right
[00:35:35] <zeeshan> but for practical purposes, its msotly a sphere
[00:35:55] <zeeshan> like theres lots of good references where people have done tests with bulge testing
[00:36:03] <XXCoder> zee forgot - you studing to be machinist? or minerials engineer? or engineer in general?
[00:36:09] <zeeshan> and then taking a servoactuator system to a flat sheet in both directions
[00:36:12] * furrywolf is generally pretty good at visualizing deformations, and even better at visualizing all the ways nothing is ever easy. :P
[00:36:16] <zeeshan> and the data matches well
[00:36:27] <zeeshan> XXCoder: im an engineer
[00:36:35] <zeeshan> im doing my thesis right now for my masters
[00:36:42] <zeeshan> mech eng
[00:36:49] <XXCoder> yea guessed engineer. nice
[00:36:55] <XXCoder> build me a big cnc router ;)
[00:36:56] <XXCoder> jk
[00:37:01] <zeeshan> you dont want me to
[00:37:04] <zeeshan> it'll weight 6000lb
[00:37:07] <zeeshan> :D
[00:37:08] <XXCoder> lol
[00:37:09] <furrywolf> and I'm a redneck, doing zee's thesis for him. :P
[00:37:22] <XXCoder> though zee engineer designs stuff right?
[00:37:23] <zeeshan> furrywolf: if i get this results sorted out
[00:37:29] <XXCoder> for example machine to do X
[00:37:34] <zeeshan> i have solid data for publishing a paper
[00:37:52] <zeeshan> XXCoder: depends on the type of mechanical engineer
[00:38:11] <XXCoder> mind simple examples of what engineer do?
[00:38:12] <zeeshan> but usually mech eng design anything related to machinery
[00:38:16] <XXCoder> I have vague picture
[00:38:16] <furrywolf> XXCoder: right now he's working more on materials engineering
[00:38:28] <XXCoder> interesting
[00:38:41] <zeeshan> i have a friend for example who is working at Dana corp designing the charger cooler for a newer bmw
[00:39:03] <zeeshan> another friend designs plastic injection molds
[00:39:15] <XXCoder> thanks for examples :)
[00:39:35] <zeeshan> furrywolf: how did i get stuck with this materials shit?
[00:39:46] <zeeshan> i was thinking i was doing to be blowing up some metals at 5000psi
[00:39:54] <zeeshan> he made me do that for 3 weeks
[00:39:58] <zeeshan> and bam came this polymer bs
[00:40:03] <XXCoder> zeeshan everything has boring aspects. everything.
[00:40:07] <zeeshan> its not boring
[00:40:14] <zeeshan> it just required a LOT of learning
[00:40:21] <zeeshan> way beyond my expertise
[00:40:25] <XXCoder> lol yeah well zee theres this strange law
[00:40:33] <furrywolf> XXCoder: engineers do all sorts of things. plasma dynamics in a ion jet rocket? that's engineering. the material that won't melt when the plasma hits it? that's another branch of engineering. the power supply to run it? that's another branch of engineering. the flight path it's going to take? that's a branch of engineering. the frame it mounts in? that's a branch of engineering. the temperature of the outer housing? that's a b
[00:40:35] <XXCoder> the more you know, the more stuff you know you dont know.
[00:40:41] <furrywolf> making a steam engine move? that's engineering too. :P
[00:40:53] <zeeshan> you know what else engineers do?
[00:40:57] <zeeshan> Piss people off
[00:41:01] <XXCoder> lol
[00:41:04] <zeeshan> for designing shit that can't be built
[00:41:20] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: unless they're good at... social engineering! then they make people do what they want. :P
[00:41:39] <zeeshan> XXCoder: i'd like to think im a pretty good expert in structural mechanics
[00:41:43] <zeeshan> when it comes to metals
[00:41:51] <XXCoder> nice
[00:41:54] <XXCoder> furrywolf:
http://www.beheadingboredom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/science-versus-engineering-versus-liberal-arts.jpg
[00:42:23] <zeeshan> are you guys into particle physics?
[00:42:40] <zeeshan> i've been trying to learn it on the side
[00:42:56] <zeeshan> physicists certaily like to make things hard.
[00:43:04] <XXCoder> hah
[00:43:08] <XXCoder> try pure math
[00:43:15] <zeeshan> those guys are a special breed
[00:43:20] <zeeshan> and i have a lot of respect for em
[00:43:24] <furrywolf> it's not a field I have much knowledge of, no...
[00:43:34] <XXCoder> https://xkcd.com/435/
[00:43:50] <zeeshan> ROFL
[00:44:19] <furrywolf> I did read an article earlier today that the LHC folks had a "hmm, that's interesting" moment, and unexpectly got evidence for the existance of pentaquarks. isn't it funny how much science starts with "hmm, that's interesting" rather than the expected result? :P
[00:44:49] <XXCoder> lot more physics discovery start with "hmm that's interesting..."
[00:45:41] <furrywolf> I tend to have a little bit of knowledge on a wide variety of topics, but I don't know much about particle physics.
[00:45:53] <XXCoder> me either
[00:45:58] <XXCoder> im science fan
[00:46:05] <zeeshan> it intrigues me
[00:46:08] <XXCoder> not scientist (besides supposely CS)
[00:46:22] <zeeshan> to get a size comparison
[00:46:31] <zeeshan> they say the size of an atom is a grain of sand
[00:46:32] <zeeshan> relative to the sun
[00:46:40] <zeeshan> which is a frigging giant
[00:46:53] <XXCoder> zeeshan: theres stars thats bigger than our entire solar system
[00:46:53] <furrywolf> anyway, stop complaining. as thesi go, yours sounds awfully easy. :P
[00:46:55] <zeeshan> but particles are the same scale down
[00:47:03] <XXCoder> so big that throw SOL in and it dont even notice
[00:47:11] <zeeshan> i aint complaining
[00:47:13] <zeeshan> im frustrated
[00:47:17] <furrywolf> a masters thesis should be more complicated that some random redneck on irc can understand. :)
[00:47:27] <furrywolf> s/that/than
[00:47:32] <zeeshan> you havent seen the modelling part my friend!
[00:47:42] <XXCoder> masters thesis: "2+2=4 therefore true" and you get masters. kidding :P
[00:47:55] <zeeshan> im only on experimental phase
[00:47:57] <zeeshan> next is modelling
[00:48:31] * furrywolf likes modelling
[00:48:48] <zeeshan> https://books.google.ca/books?id=AZuNioxH_i4C&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=viscoelastic+boltzmann+superposition+principle&source=bl&ots=J7q4ywo9dG&sig=w6QdiOk2_HGqpkpBcw412QRMmNk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgKahUKEwj52anH-OPGAhVFF5IKHXV_AFo#v=onepage&q=viscoelastic%20boltzmann%20superposition%20principle&f=false
[00:48:51] <zeeshan> scroll through this
[00:48:58] <zeeshan> page 132 and on
[00:49:01] <zeeshan> it gets dirty
[00:49:24] <zeeshan> they run out of greek letters to use
[00:49:25] <zeeshan> haha
[00:49:28] <furrywolf> what kind of model do you hope to get? something that predicts stress, strain, recovery, etc based on temperature, amount of strain, etc?
[00:49:28] <XXCoder> porno? :P
[00:49:41] <zeeshan> id like to use a nonlinear viscoelastic model
[00:49:50] <zeeshan> and add a shape memory component to it
[00:49:58] <zeeshan> which does what you said
[00:50:17] <furrywolf> I've never done mathematical models of things like that, only physical simulations. (FEA-like)
[00:50:29] <zeeshan> it should be able to predict stress, stress relaxation, creep, strain, modulus, etc
[00:50:41] <zeeshan> well once you get the math model
[00:50:45] <zeeshan> then you do it fea like
[00:51:20] <zeeshan> i might just use a simple model
[00:51:29] <furrywolf> still, you either need a harder thesis topic, or I need a degree. :)
[00:51:31] <zeeshan> even though its a nonlinear guy
[00:51:40] <zeeshan> i might treat it linearly
[00:51:45] <zeeshan> and say 15% error
[00:51:45] <zeeshan> :D
[00:52:05] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i think you're smart
[00:52:09] <zeeshan> if you went through eng. school
[00:52:13] <zeeshan> you'd make it up top
[00:52:58] <furrywolf> working on non-chemical rocket propulsion sounds especially fun...
[00:53:09] <XXCoder> emgrive. ;)
[00:53:18] <furrywolf> plasma thrusters, maser ablation, all sorts of fun things. :P
[00:53:40] <zeeshan> laser ablation they use in machining
[00:53:55] <XXCoder> non-physical milling
[00:54:02] <furrywolf> it's also a potential system for launching things into orbit.
[00:54:15] <furrywolf> you put a bunch of ablative material on the bottom of your payload, and blast it.
[00:54:16] <zeeshan> furrywolf: this is why i want to learn more about elementary particles
[00:54:22] <XXCoder> wait till we get graser lol
[00:54:28] <zeeshan> physicts come up with theories and laws
[00:54:34] <zeeshan> eng exploit those :)
[00:54:37] <XXCoder> (from one book, basically collumated beam of gravity)
[00:55:08] <zeeshan> fastest space craft voyager travels at 38 027.917 mph
[00:55:13] <zeeshan> that might seem fast
[00:55:25] <furrywolf> it's a particularlly nice system, since all your energy is stored down on the ground, so you don't need to lift your energy source...
[00:55:27] <zeeshan> but considering light travels at 670 616 629 mph
[00:55:30] <zeeshan> thats pretty damn slow
[00:55:31] <XXCoder> for universe overall, not even light is fast,
[00:55:32] <furrywolf> and, it doesn't tend to randomly explode.
[00:55:37] <zeeshan> XXCoder: yea!!
[00:56:07] <zeeshan> shit our galaxy is 100,000 light years wide
[00:56:22] <furrywolf> 2.998e8 m/s is how I remember c... who the heck states c in mph? :)
[00:56:34] <zeeshan> 300e6 is how i remember it
[00:56:42] <zeeshan> but m/s for me isn't a "physical" unit
[00:56:46] <zeeshan> doesn't give me a sense of speed
[00:56:56] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah beaming power to it is nice. even better would be method to create micro-wormhole and connect wire though it
[00:57:02] <XXCoder> portable power anywhere
[00:57:13] <zeeshan> i want a wormhole just so i can come troll all of you
[00:57:15] <zeeshan> pop up behind you
[00:57:19] <zeeshan> slap and dissapear
[00:57:22] <XXCoder> though ironically assuming its connected to system power, blackout can affect probe with it lol
[00:57:26] <furrywolf> XXCoder: ... that falls somewhere on the scale between "theoretical" and "wishful".
[00:57:45] <XXCoder> furrywolf: indeed. former is real latter is well not known possibility yet
[00:58:04] <zeeshan> quantum mechanics explains all the particles and what protons are made up of
[00:58:06] <zeeshan> and what gives things mass
[00:58:13] <zeeshan> but it still doesn't explain why gravity exists
[00:58:15] <XXCoder> oh yeah
[00:58:22] <XXCoder> zeeshan: they found particle with no mass
[00:58:26] <XXCoder> lemme find atticle
[00:58:32] <zeeshan> XXCoder: there are lots of particles with no mass
[00:58:35] <zeeshan> they are called bosons
[00:58:46] <furrywolf> quantum mechanics still strikes me as having too many different theories that all can explain observations, but a distinct lack of evidence supporting any one or any of the theories.
[00:58:56] <zeeshan> photons, gluons, don't have mass
[00:58:57] <XXCoder> zeeshan:
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2015/Weyl-points-detected-0716
[00:59:18] <furrywolf> if a theory can explain all observations, it's a good theory... but when there's other theories that can also explain all the same observations...
[00:59:24] <XXCoder> fur yeah it do exist but we may have completely wrong models
[00:59:36] <XXCoder> but in least its workable while scientists look into it
[00:59:38] <zeeshan> furrywolf: the standasrd model
[00:59:41] <zeeshan> is solid now
[00:59:46] <zeeshan> after the discovery of the higgs boson
[00:59:49] <zeeshan> there is no doubting it
[00:59:50] <zeeshan> it is fact
[01:00:04] <zeeshan> the problem is gravity
[01:00:06] <zeeshan> it doesn't explain it
[01:00:13] <furrywolf> particles, waves, strings, little aliens trolling the universe,...
[01:00:19] <zeeshan> if gravity could be explained, that would be the grand unification theory
[01:00:21] <XXCoder> gravoty. first force to be discovered... and last to be explained
[01:00:55] <XXCoder> easier to read
http://www.iflscience.com/physics/discovery-massless-weyl-fermion-particle-could-revolutionize-electronics
[01:01:02] <furrywolf> engineering is much easier... you don't have to know why it works, just how to make it work. :P
[01:01:22] <zeeshan> a good engineer knows why it works
[01:01:41] <zeeshan> (my opinion)
[01:01:49] <furrywolf> do you know why the atomic bonds in your polymer work like they do? :)
[01:01:59] <zeeshan> yes
[01:02:04] <zeeshan> micro-brownian motion
[01:02:12] <XXCoder> zeeshan: odd thing is that it says it can make massless electrons
[01:02:13] <furrywolf> and do you know WHY (etc)
[01:02:15] <XXCoder> bit wtf
[01:02:32] <zeeshan> XXCoder: haha
[01:02:37] <zeeshan> particle physics is crazy. :p
[01:02:42] <XXCoder> it is
[01:03:21] <zeeshan> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Feynmann_Diagram_Gluon_Radiation.svg/287px-Feynmann_Diagram_Gluon_Radiation.svg.png
[01:03:31] <zeeshan> they try to use these diagrams to explain it visually
[01:03:38] <furrywolf> bbl, it's close to two hours past wolfy bedtime.
[01:03:43] <XXCoder> later fur
[01:03:45] <zeeshan> its the weekend!
[01:03:46] <zeeshan> :P
[01:03:48] <zeeshan> cu
[01:04:01] <zeeshan> i need to go to a wedding tomorrow at 7am
[01:04:06] <zeeshan> who has a frigging wedding at that time?
[01:04:16] <furrywolf> people who get up at normal hours?
[01:04:19] <zeeshan> F that
[01:04:28] <zeeshan> nite
[01:04:45] * furrywolf is usually up around 5:30am
[01:05:08] <XXCoder> I usually GO to bed at 4 am lol
[01:21:49] <XXCoder> zeeshan:
http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/5/2/428452_v1.jpg lol
[01:22:01] <XXCoder> the G (or C?) is amgious in shape lol
[02:06:04] <Deejay> moin
[02:11:35] <just_pink> moin
[02:14:01] <XXCoder> just, did you see pic of my machine?
[02:14:18] <just_pink> no
[02:14:37] <XXCoder> http://picpaste.com/CNCRouter-GN2Zoq3m.jpg
[02:14:48] <XXCoder> its still incomplete but pretty cool.
[02:16:45] <just_pink> cute little machine, I want something like that few years ago.. boy now I'm much more happy with the design to go with something strong
[02:17:19] <XXCoder> its pretty cool, though evenually I will need to build 53 mm spindle holder for it.
[02:17:30] <just_pink> http://i.imgur.com/uqHpDSC.png
[02:17:42] <XXCoder> its holder is 43 mm which fits no spindle, I had to use that specific router. bah
[02:18:42] <just_pink> use zip tie at the beginig, and make one..
[02:19:05] <XXCoder> meh lol
[02:19:39] <Jesseg> Crom, ahh hahaha well I tried turning and drilling pure nickel (i.e. nickel 200) today and I guess I'm going to sightly and kindly disagree as to the ease of turning/drilling. I found it to be not only gummy as you said, but also tough, obstinate, and in some ways worse than titanium :P *grin*
[02:19:44] <just_pink> what do you think about the stuff thet i made?
[02:20:25] <just_pink> http://i.imgur.com/uqHpDSC.png
[02:20:25] <XXCoder> Jesseg: interesting
[02:20:36] <XXCoder> im not sure what it is
[02:20:46] <XXCoder> look like fixtures for making something
[02:21:43] <just_pink> it's led indicators with place for engraved label
[02:21:54] <XXCoder> oh cool
[02:22:06] <XXCoder> nice
[02:22:37] <just_pink> very easy to make..
[02:23:08] <Jesseg> XXCoder, yeah.. I'll bet the easy-machining alloys of nickel are fine to work with, but they also tend to be non-magnetic and I needed something that was magnetic :)
[02:23:08] <XXCoder> yeah
[02:23:41] <XXCoder> isnt titanium not magnetic too? (sorry forgot some details)
[02:23:54] <Jesseg> yes
[02:24:02] <Jesseg> but I *want* magnetic properties :)
[02:24:28] <XXCoder> :) cool
[02:24:30] <Jesseg> so I used 99.4% pure nickle.. which is a pain to work with :P
[02:24:36] <just_pink> cobalt is magnetic
[02:24:50] <XXCoder> cobolt is fairly toxic if I recall
[02:24:57] <Jesseg> I didn't see cobalt on onlinemetals.com maybe I need to look again
[02:26:39] <just_pink> Jesseg: why you dont use iron?
[02:27:44] <Jesseg> just_pink, I'm making experimental 3D hot end nozzles that are to be heated by a small induction heater that only heats magnetic metals and steel tends to rust when it's hot and cold all the time, otherwise sure.
[02:28:10] <XXCoder> Jesseg: stainless steel?
[02:28:20] <XXCoder> its pretty tough to mill though
[02:28:53] <Jesseg> XXCoder, most stainless does not stick very well to a magnet and I have found that it does not heat in my heater coil. I know there are some magnetic stainless alloys but I haven't got ahold of any yet.
[02:29:22] <Jesseg> and yeah stainless is a pain to work with too, unless you have ECM/EDM which I aint got, although I want to build one of each
[02:29:42] <XXCoder> at work stainless steel isnt very common but always a pain
[02:29:52] <XXCoder> inocel metal is more common
[02:29:56] <XXCoder> its some kinda weird alloy
[02:29:58] <XXCoder> very strong
[02:30:00] <Jesseg> How hard is it to work with?
[02:30:08] <XXCoder> not as bad as stainless
[02:30:17] <Jesseg> Does it stick to a magnet perchance?
[02:30:21] <XXCoder> unknown
[02:30:35] <XXCoder> think its used only for planes or something
[02:30:47] <Jesseg> yeah the blades in jet turbines I think :P
[02:30:53] <XXCoder> extreme corrosion reistance, tough stuff
[02:31:02] <XXCoder> and inside engines stuff like washers
[02:31:10] <XXCoder> I engrave inocel washers a lot lol
[02:31:27] <Jesseg> haha cool
[02:31:33] <XXCoder> honestly material I like to work on most is aluminium
[02:31:42] <XXCoder> sadly thats pretty rare for company I work at
[02:32:00] <XXCoder> weirdly annoying is that nylon/glass/steel mix materia;
[02:32:07] <Jesseg> yeah aluminum is so nice, especially if you get some easy machining alloy like 6061 or something
[02:32:10] <XXCoder> its not very hard but it sure wears down tools
[02:32:32] <XXCoder> theres two type, one I previously menioned and basic nylon/glass
[02:33:00] <Jesseg> pure aluminum is a real pain to work with, It's more like trying to machine gooy sticky tar :P
[02:33:07] <XXCoder> lol
[02:33:09] <XXCoder> yeah
[02:33:14] <XXCoder> I worked with those before
[02:33:24] <XXCoder> dropped one part 3 inches and it was ruined by dent
[02:33:31] <Jesseg> haha yup
[02:33:50] <XXCoder> thankfully there was extra
[02:34:03] <XXCoder> man I treated it like it was made from brittle candy!
[02:34:04] <just_pink> try with ceramic cutting tool
[02:34:43] <XXCoder> just_pink: HSS cut it fine, just needed nice filing to blend it after
[02:34:51] <XXCoder> very softly use jaws and file
[02:34:57] <Jesseg> Night folks.
[02:35:02] <XXCoder> night jess
[02:36:00] <just_pink> ceramic fo the inocel
[02:36:04] <just_pink> for*
[02:36:10] <archivist> hammer the corner back before filing :)
[02:36:14] <XXCoder> oh
[02:36:30] <XXCoder> just_pink: no choice on tooling company gives me and I use em
[02:36:39] <XXCoder> carboide
[02:37:16] <just_pink> XXCoder: what do you mean no choice ?
[02:37:55] <XXCoder> like I said, company gives me tools and I use em on parts
[02:38:00] <archivist> it is his job, the boss supplies the tools
[02:38:03] <XXCoder> I work for company after all
[02:38:23] <XXCoder> I do want my own company evenually but not sure how to get there lol
[02:39:14] <archivist> buy the company off the boss when he retires
[02:39:37] <just_pink> financing large machine :)
[02:40:10] <archivist> start small, make and sell stuff, upgrade with the profits
[02:41:12] <just_pink> get marriage with the right woman
[02:41:27] <archivist> the hard part is getting the first orders
[02:56:53] <just_pink> Now i'm realised the the indicators look like house intercom from the 80's
[02:57:52] <XXCoder> just_pink: you offering? lol
[02:58:07] <XXCoder> archivist: yeah I'll have a slow go on this
[02:59:50] <just_pink> XXCoder: offering what?
[03:00:04] <XXCoder> marrage. I was kidding heh
[03:01:00] <just_pink> hehee you still there...
[03:01:16] <XXCoder> lol
[03:03:01] <XXCoder> honestly I rather not marry a woman because of money
[03:03:07] <XXCoder> not great way to start relationship.
[03:03:12] <just_pink> http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=874863338&p_File_Name=PLSED309005EN_%28web%29.pdf
[03:03:49] <just_pink> I dont like shopping and stuff lke that..
[03:04:15] <just_pink> but look at this catalog the stuff there sooo coool!
[03:04:30] <XXCoder> interesting stuff related to power system
[03:04:34] <XXCoder> displays and so on
[03:06:27] <just_pink> I want the old style analog stuff
[03:07:52] <XXCoder> cool :)
[03:08:00] <XXCoder> design some display?
[03:11:25] <just_pink> just Volt and Amps
[03:11:52] <XXCoder> cool :)
[03:14:02] <just_pink> http://www.amazon.com/0-200A-Measuring-Mounting-Analog-Amperemeter/dp/B00P3FOFOY/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1437205850&sr=8-16&keywords=analog++voltmeter+90
[03:14:29] <just_pink> I like the ones like thhis one the 90 deg display,,
[03:16:05] <XXCoder> yeah definitely different
[03:16:21] <XXCoder> usual ones is set at rotated 100 degree
[03:16:34] <XXCoder> sweeps from rised left side to right side
[03:18:48] <just_pink> http://www.salzer-electric.com/6-1-5-analog-power-meter.html
[03:19:57] <just_pink> but, I can't find thet data sheet :(
[03:20:04] <just_pink> the*
[03:21:11] <archivist> you wont get a data sheet till the salesman has visited, note from that page Mini order amount USD5,000
[03:21:31] <XXCoder> dang
[03:21:38] <XXCoder> order $5000 worth, sell rest
[03:21:49] <XXCoder> not that theres that high demend
[03:22:28] <XXCoder> just_pink:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Safe-Ship-6L2-AC-0-450V-Analog-Volt-Voltage-Panel-Meter-Gauge-Voltmeter-Mount-with-Screws/539478418.html found one
[03:23:01] <just_pink> XXCoder: but it is from china!
[03:23:20] <XXCoder> yeah everything is made from china lately
[03:23:23] <XXCoder> even china lol
[03:23:45] <XXCoder> I dont really like buying from em
[03:23:50] <XXCoder> but cant afford not to
[03:24:05] <just_pink> I want something from usa / german / good branded
[03:24:28] <just_pink> how old are you?
[03:24:38] <XXCoder> 39
[03:24:38] <archivist> so called good brands just get the chinese to print their names
[03:25:00] <XXCoder> archivist: and "good brands" visit china often enough to keep QA going
[03:25:32] <just_pink> :(
[03:25:53] <XXCoder> just_pink: I remember this sticker...
[03:26:05] <XXCoder> it's "MADE IN USA!" label
[03:26:18] <XXCoder> in back take off paper it says "Made in china"
[03:26:25] <XXCoder> ummm lol
[03:27:34] <just_pink> :(
[03:28:19] <just_pink> now i see "salzer" also made in china :(
[03:35:20] <XXCoder> yeah
[03:35:36] <XXCoder> I'd not be surpised that even made in usa stuff is mostly made there
[03:35:43] <XXCoder> say capactors and chips so on
[03:35:47] <XXCoder> then assembled here
[03:35:53] <XXCoder> *in usa
[03:38:15] <just_pink> I hate to buy online.
[03:38:45] <just_pink> I want to feel the product.
[03:39:24] <XXCoder> yeah some stuff is better bought when checked in person
[03:39:29] <XXCoder> ;like glasses
[03:41:13] <just_pink> the plastics stuff
[03:42:19] <XXCoder> oh well
[03:46:22] <just_pink> and I need a meter with changeable plate, so I be able to make my own measurement scale
[03:47:06] <XXCoder> its easier to find more standard "V" ones
[03:47:12] <XXCoder> 90 degree is bit harder
[03:47:41] <just_pink> but the 90 deg is he industrial standart
[03:53:09] <just_pink> http://canen.com.cn/
[03:54:01] <XXCoder> interesting. each time I check out volt displays its almost always V type
[03:54:07] <XXCoder> dunno what its called
[04:00:16] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX_IhYLh2Jw&feature=youtu.be
[04:00:24] <XXCoder> pretty cool but not ready enough for me
[04:02:13] <archivist> terrible camera work
[04:02:24] <XXCoder> yeah
[04:10:22] <XXCoder> hey Loetmichel
[04:11:36] <just_pink> XXCoder: not usable.
[04:11:47] <XXCoder> yeah it just isnt
[04:12:16] <XXCoder> I want in least 10 fps at 256 grayscale
[04:16:10] <just_pink> way grayscale?
[04:16:41] <XXCoder> its eink techology screen
[04:16:45] <XXCoder> it dont do colors
[04:16:53] <XXCoder> there is new tech that can do gray scale and one color
[04:16:59] <XXCoder> but its coming very slowly
[04:17:12] <XXCoder> someday they will figure 3 colors
[04:17:21] <XXCoder> and grayscale of course
[04:23:33] <just_pink> XXCoder: but way you want it?
[04:23:48] <XXCoder> its nice way to read text without eyestrain
[04:23:57] <just_pink> I know what is the Eing.. I thnk it's almost usless.
[04:24:08] <XXCoder> I use kindle everyday
[04:24:11] <XXCoder> literally.
[04:24:32] <XXCoder> in long milling cycle jobs 80% of my work is reading lol
[04:24:43] <XXCoder> (pretty rare, typical is few minutes of read)
[04:24:47] <just_pink> I'm use very old 17" lcd monitor
[04:25:11] <XXCoder> 2 23" lcd montiors here
[04:25:35] <XXCoder> once you go dual you never go back. 90% of time second montior is covered by irc program
[04:25:53] <XXCoder> and that uses mostly black color scheme so its nice and dark
[04:31:15] <just_pink> I'm using fire fox
[04:31:21] <just_pink> firefox*
[04:31:25] <XXCoder> firefox is a browser
[04:31:31] <just_pink> http://webchat.freenode.net
[04:31:33] <XXCoder> I guess you means website irc client
[04:31:39] <XXCoder> yeah guessed so
[04:31:46] <just_pink> yeh..
[04:31:57] <XXCoder> I use hexchat which works well enough
[04:44:40] <just_pink> In case that CNC machine start to boring you..
[04:44:44] <just_pink> the*
[04:44:47] <just_pink> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AN-FPS-85-Phased-Array-Radar-System-Panel-Meter-0-25-Degrees-/350866084568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51b13f92d8
[04:45:44] <XXCoder> bet that is hackable lol
[04:45:52] <XXCoder> just not by me heh
[04:46:07] <archivist> most analogue meters are hackable
[04:46:40] <archivist> just take it to bits far from any dust
[04:47:27] <XXCoder> im pretty sure it takes input of certain volt range
[04:47:35] <archivist> current
[04:47:36] <XXCoder> just up or down convert it to display what you want
[04:47:42] <XXCoder> oh current
[04:47:48] <XXCoder> in W correct?
[04:47:50] <XXCoder> watts
[04:48:03] <archivist> just add a series resistor to measure voltage
[04:48:21] <XXCoder> jeeez
[04:48:26] <XXCoder> even more flash exploits found
[04:48:41] <XXCoder> both facebook and firefox wants flash to be killed off and ended
[04:49:06] <archivist> its funny IE refused to download the flash update :)
[04:49:19] <XXCoder> ie is being killed soon
[04:49:27] <XXCoder> not that I care, I stopped using ie years ago
[04:54:58] <XXCoder> LOL
[04:55:08] <XXCoder> thief found a broken van on side of freeway
[04:55:18] <XXCoder> guy fixed it and of course stole it
[04:55:26] <XXCoder> fixed drive shaft, 3 new wheels
[04:55:34] <XXCoder> then got caught
[04:55:53] <XXCoder> wife was driving when she saw van being driven by stranger
[04:55:59] <XXCoder> so called police while following
[04:56:28] <XXCoder> pretty nice since they couldnt afford towing (they was waiting for money for part to fix it in few days)
[04:58:38] <archivist> I want some sheet metal like
http://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/collection/air-data/air-data-aneroid-capsules
[04:58:57] <archivist> might have to make a press tool
[04:59:25] <XXCoder> whats it for
[04:59:46] <XXCoder> about that stolen van
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/07/14/couples-suv-stolen-repaired-by-thief/30118219
[04:59:57] <archivist> cnc probe spring
[05:00:18] <XXCoder> to find Z or some axle?
[05:00:43] <archivist> to hold the probe centrally
[05:01:03] <XXCoder> ahh
[05:03:56] <archivist> I suppose I could experiment with the end of a tin can
[05:06:47] <archivist> Heinz beans for later :)
[05:08:20] <XXCoder> lol
[05:08:27] <XXCoder> first step: eat contents
[05:08:35] <XXCoder> second step: clean can
[05:08:58] <XXCoder> just in case user is an idiot: "first step: eat contents as instucted on it"
[05:30:54] <XXCoder> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150714-did-makerbot-knowingly-sell-faulty-3d-printers-class-action-lawsuit-alleges-yes.html
[05:30:57] <XXCoder> interesting
[06:44:46] <archivist> hehe
[06:53:44] <DaViruz> $2899US, whaat
[06:54:25] <archivist> cheeeeeeep for a professional scam
[06:56:00] <archivist> I regard apple and jewellery pricing in the same manner
[06:57:27] <XXCoder> maker was always a joke to me
[06:57:30] <XXCoder> ricious pricr
[06:58:09] <DaViruz> pretty steep for a cnc hot melt glue gun
[06:58:36] <XXCoder> I probably will try build my cnc router into 3d printer with attachment
[06:58:43] <XXCoder> swap head and done
[07:00:54] <XXCoder> not for while though
[07:02:33] <Loetmichel> hmm, it seems i had my tinkerPC not on for a long time... avira said "55 days since last update", windows update said 28 updates aviable, firefos was version 24.05, and ED took the whole midmorning to upgrade... now i have only to upgrade libreoffice and then its back up to date... AND get a new GPU, the one in there has a thermic fault, everytime it gets above 55°c it resets the PC, so it
[07:02:33] <Loetmichel> runs there with fans on full speed.. *annoying*
[07:02:55] <XXCoder> 24? suprised its not firefox 5
[07:03:08] <XXCoder> firefox is nice but man do they update billion times a year
[07:20:06] <jthornton> anyone use or know of the Intel G32XX H97 based motherboard that PCW talks about on the forum?
[07:22:47] <Tom_itx> not i
[07:23:33] <jthornton> morning Tom_itx
[07:23:41] <Tom_itx> morning
[07:23:47] <jthornton> dang it's been a rough week
[07:24:02] <Tom_itx> you're tellin me...
[07:27:23] <jthornton> you guys going to be in the upper 90's too this weekend?
[07:28:09] <Tom_itx> mid to upper all week
[07:29:32] <jthornton> yuck that is hot, we are supposed to be in the low 90's after Sunday
[07:29:58] <Tom_itx> it's July in Ks. that's what we get :)
[07:30:33] <Tom_itx> one summer we had over 30 consecutive days over 100
[07:33:54] <jthornton> yikes thats hot
[07:34:58] <Tom_itx> http://www.weather.gov/ict/climate100degrees
[07:35:13] <Tom_itx> 2000 33
[07:35:41] <Tom_itx> i guess that wasn't consecutive though
[07:37:01] <Tom_itx> 53 in 2011
[07:39:32] <Tom_itx> iirc that was the year all the lakes dried up
[07:45:32] <jthornton> speaking of lakes drying up I need to water my tadpoles this morning
[07:50:02] <Deejay> :)
[07:50:23] <jthornton> hi Deejay
[07:50:46] <Deejay> hi jthornton :)
[08:18:52] <jthornton> now were getting to the meat an potatoes of the tutorial "Arguments passed by value and by reference"
[08:21:01] <Tom_itx> what you workin on?
[08:21:10] <Tom_itx> c?
[08:21:40] <jthornton> c++ it seems to be easier to digest this time after all the python programming I've done in the last few years
[08:22:21] <Tom_itx> what do you need c++ for?
[08:22:25] <furrywolf> how does china post + USPS get things here from hong kong in less time than UPS gets them here from halfway across the country?
[08:22:39] <jthornton> lol dunno
[08:22:49] <jthornton> QT
[08:24:25] <jthornton> why does it take 3 days for USPS Priority from south east MO to north west AR? I can drive there in 3 hours
[08:25:17] <furrywolf> dunno, but it also takes them three days to get stuff from NY to CA.
[08:25:23] <archivist> because they have to take it 1000 miles to the distribution centre first :(
[08:25:42] <Tom_itx> they gotta finish their 3am package football game before it lands on the truck
[08:25:46] <jthornton> yea
[08:26:41] <Tom_itx> i had one pass by me twice to the N & S before it landed here
[08:27:22] <malcom2073> I like Qt
[08:28:47] <jthornton> I'm ready to try Qt again
[08:35:26] <_methods> freakin hilarious i was just watching the news and they were talkin about lyme diseases spreading
[08:35:51] <_methods> and they said the best way to avoid ticks was to not come into contact with ticks
[08:35:54] <_methods> lol
[08:36:21] <jthornton> lol
[08:36:32] <_methods> thanx for that hot tip CNN
[09:03:50] <JT-Shop> tadpole hole was almost dry and they looked thirsty
[10:30:33] <furrywolf> _methods: my neighbor's dogs were in my yard once, and another neighbor I didn't really know came up to me, and asked if she could pick the ticks off my dogs. I told her they weren't my dogs, but their owner would be unlikely to mind. she then proceeded to de-tick them. Was talking to her while she was doing this, and she has lyme disease, and made it a hobby to kill every single tick she can find anywhere on anyone's pets.
[10:47:03] <blockh34d> hi i'm modifyin poopieboard, question for the linuxcnc gurus
[10:47:19] <blockh34d> seeing as yall have 9axis motion available, you'd know more about this
[10:47:39] <blockh34d> what is the absolute most number of simultaneous axis you would ever expect to want?
[10:47:46] <blockh34d> is 9 already more than enough? would 20 be better?
[10:48:43] <blockh34d> i'm adding a few more axis to smoothieboard but it wouldnt take many changes to make it basically any-number-of-axis up to about 20 or so
[10:49:22] * furrywolf assumes anyone who would purchase such a product is unlikely to have more than 3.
[10:49:48] <blockh34d> furrywolf: lol a surprisingly accurate assumption actually
[10:50:31] <blockh34d> but times are changing, smoothieware will support a lot more axes soon, eithe rfrom my code (unlikely) or from the main trunk doing their own comparable code because they dont like how i'm doing it
[10:51:11] <blockh34d> seems like 20 is just overkill though
[10:52:24] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: nor serious builder of machines is going to use the smoothie, so it's up to how much of your efforts you want to go into reinventing the wheel that might not get used
[10:52:37] <CaptHindsight> well most likely not be used
[10:52:54] <CaptHindsight> nor/no
[10:53:25] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: oh i wouldnt ever bother with this crap if it was for me
[10:53:35] <blockh34d> hell no i'd just switch to machinekit or something
[10:53:39] <blockh34d> a real computer, whatever
[10:53:49] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: anyone building a consumer product won't use poopie
[10:53:59] <blockh34d> no the client has got a big boner for smoothieboard so they want me to modify it
[10:54:05] <CaptHindsight> anyone building a precision machine won't be using poopie
[10:54:22] <blockh34d> yeah the motion control seems... approximate at beswt
[10:54:24] <CaptHindsight> so that the money and be happy
[10:54:33] <CaptHindsight> that/take
[10:54:38] <blockh34d> yeah you have good plans
[10:54:43] <blockh34d> i will subscribe to your newsletter
[10:55:05] <malcom2073> smoothie is pretty good for 3d printers
[10:55:28] <blockh34d> malcom2073: not really
[10:55:31] <blockh34d> simplify3d crashes it
[10:55:39] <blockh34d> i've told smoothieteam how to fix it, they refuse to
[10:55:49] <blockh34d> 'its simplify3d's fault, talk to them'
[10:55:57] <malcom2073> Ok
[10:56:09] <blockh34d> they dont care if some halfbaked gcode fries your 15 hr print, not even a little.
[10:56:12] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: ah you've met the masterminds behind it!
[10:56:24] <CaptHindsight> they are in it for the money
[10:56:29] <blockh34d> fyi, make sure s3d doesnt put any f0 in your code, to smoothieware people that means 'proceed at rate 0'
[10:56:43] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: oh yah, you should have heard them try to treaten me with the GPL
[10:57:01] <blockh34d> 'if you make ANY modifications to our code you MUST publish them, even if you do not release the code publicly in any way!'
[10:57:08] <blockh34d> utter rubbish
[10:57:18] <malcom2073> Heh
[10:57:23] <blockh34d> last week it was 'we dont want your stupid code anyways'
[10:57:26] <CaptHindsight> heh, your superior technology is no match or our puny weapons
[10:57:32] <blockh34d> haha exactly
[10:57:35] <malcom2073> I left their channel after they told me there's NO WAY my steppers could be spinning at 1200rpm
[10:57:48] <blockh34d> they love talking about what cant be done
[10:57:48] <CaptHindsight> yeah , it's basically two brats that did the kickstarter
[10:57:51] <furrywolf> ... I've spun mine at 1200rpm. and faster.
[10:57:56] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Not possible!
[10:58:05] <malcom2073> Because a 3d printing website calculator says it's not possible!
[10:58:15] <blockh34d> we must be int he matrix
[10:58:19] <blockh34d> look for dejavu cats
[10:58:29] <malcom2073> Anyway, I have a ballscrew based 3d printer, which they also say, is not possible
[10:58:38] <blockh34d> oh that sounds precise as hell
[10:58:50] <furrywolf> according to some quick math, I'm running the ones on my mill at 2160rpm.
[10:58:52] <malcom2073> But my normal belt drive 3d printer runs pretty good on smoothie
[10:59:03] <malcom2073> furrywolf: I know, you can spin them very fast :P
[10:59:05] <blockh34d> malcom2073: i have yet to try it
[10:59:08] <t12> lol
[10:59:12] <t12> small code drama
[10:59:15] <blockh34d> my smoothieboard is just plugged into a stack of steppers
[10:59:29] <malcom2073> I'm not using a smoothieboard, I wouldn't give them any money heh
[10:59:32] <malcom2073> I used the $20 LPC board
[10:59:45] <blockh34d> i'm thinking about modifying their 5xc board into a 10xc just to punk them out
[10:59:48] <furrywolf> of course, I'm running them at 8A/phase off 54V, which are numbers I'm sure most 3d printer people would say can't exist either... :P
[10:59:53] <blockh34d> 'look how easy this shit is'
[11:00:08] <t12> the low end vc-money-aspiring maker world is so weird
[11:00:09] <malcom2073> blockh34d: Release pictures, and video of it, then don't release code
[11:00:13] <malcom2073> (since you don't have to)
[11:00:15] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: get paid and don't worry about them, waste of time, move on to something better
[11:00:20] <blockh34d> malcom2073: oh you have good plans i like that
[11:00:28] <furrywolf> I need to up it to 70V for a bit more speed
[11:00:35] <malcom2073> furrywolf: More powah
[11:00:40] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: agreed, endless frustration for no benefit
[11:00:48] <blockh34d> i have already recommended to client we migrate to linuxcnc asap
[11:00:51] <blockh34d> and real computers
[11:01:04] <malcom2073> oh yeah, _methods: I got laughed at for asking $2k for my lathe heh
[11:01:06] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: it's like junior high
[11:01:32] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: you know, you're right, it really is... i was noticing that earlier too, i thought it was just me though
[11:02:05] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: I tried to help them years ago, waste of time and they also want all the control
[11:02:30] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: i could work with almost anything but all the insecure smugness
[11:02:40] <blockh34d> that just shuts it down for me, f that
[11:02:57] <blockh34d> ah well i guess thats most of irc myself included
[11:02:59] <blockh34d> whatever
[11:03:06] <CaptHindsight> they use open source as a face/front
[11:03:08] * furrywolf knows nothing about junior high, so isn't sure what that means
[11:03:30] <blockh34d> furrywolf: useless waste of time, like state sponsored babysitting
[11:03:31] <CaptHindsight> they really just want to make a $ of people a few steps behind them
[11:03:45] <blockh34d> if you've every read lord of the flies, pretty similar
[11:03:51] <CaptHindsight> makers, hobbyists
[11:04:10] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: yes agree, the code looks like somtimes they've made changes that there is no need for and dont help
[11:04:22] <blockh34d> and at first i couldnt figure out why, but then one of them said something to me that made sense
[11:04:29] <CaptHindsight> took them over a year to make that board
[11:04:31] <blockh34d> 'well it has to be different from marlin sprinter somehow'
[11:04:42] <malcom2073> They're doing a FPGA board
[11:04:48] <malcom2073> But still using the same shitty motion control
[11:04:51] <blockh34d> yeah theres a v2 on the way
[11:04:54] <blockh34d> but the code is still the same
[11:05:09] <blockh34d> yeah that shit is a mess
[11:05:35] <CaptHindsight> they hoped to use the STM32 libs that uwe_ wrote
[11:06:23] <CaptHindsight> that didn't work out since they went with LPC from NXP vs STM from ST
[11:06:37] <CaptHindsight> so they had to rewrite all new libs
[11:06:39] <blockh34d> does gplv3 let me attach arbitruary irrational demands to my license?
[11:06:54] <CaptHindsight> must not be French
[11:06:56] <blockh34d> like 'you can use my code but only if you put the word SUCKS in all caps in your project name somewhere'
[11:07:06] <malcom2073> blockh34d: As long as yourcode is entirely yours, sure
[11:07:19] <t12> i always wanted the crime only license
[11:07:22] <blockh34d> ah its derived from theirs
[11:07:24] <blockh34d> haha nice
[11:07:35] <t12> this code may only be used for illegal acts
[11:07:41] <blockh34d> anarchyware
[11:07:43] <blockh34d> i like it
[11:07:48] <malcom2073> There was a "not for evil" license that sneaked its way into some core software once
[11:07:59] <malcom2073> JSON
[11:08:03] <blockh34d> apaprently no-military is not an attachable clause
[11:08:10] <blockh34d> which i think is BS
[11:08:13] <t12> json is def used for evil
[11:08:29] <blockh34d> its got it in the name
[11:08:32] <blockh34d> js = evil
[11:08:53] <blockh34d> i love JS but it turned to the dark side
[11:08:58] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: any don't waste your time
[11:09:19] <CaptHindsight> lots of other things that need fixing or completing
[11:09:30] <blockh34d> yes i'm trying to shift over to contributing to kicad
[11:09:33] <blockh34d> which is awesome, of course
[11:09:43] <blockh34d> they need some help with some 3d code apparently
[11:10:01] <blockh34d> tried kicad? fun stuff
[11:10:26] <t12> my life has turned into a cesspool of lawyers and accountants and board mtgs
[11:10:39] <blockh34d> eww
[11:10:41] <blockh34d> grownups.
[11:10:42] <t12> anyone want to buy a 4mm capital biotech lab
[11:10:52] <t12> liquidatuon prices!
[11:10:53] <CaptHindsight> who was working on 4th and 5th axis for open CAM?
[11:10:53] <blockh34d> j/k i'm an old man but i live in denial of that
[11:11:03] <CaptHindsight> blockh34d: was that you?
[11:11:15] <blockh34d> CaptHindsight: no i'm doing somehting similar though to smoothieware
[11:11:26] <blockh34d> adding 4th and 5th so we can have 3 carriage motion
[11:11:35] <blockh34d> x1/x2/x3/y/z/e1/e2/e3
[11:12:09] <t12> yeah the grownups somehow insist
[11:12:16] <t12> on more grownups being in charge
[11:12:58] <blockh34d> jerks
[11:13:14] <CaptHindsight> t12: whats a 4mm lab?
[11:13:20] <blockh34d> ah well its probably better than lord of the flies
[11:13:25] <t12> 4million of capital
[11:13:45] <t12> im serious i have to cut a deal to do something with this
[11:13:53] <t12> otherwise it ends up in dovebid
[11:13:56] <blockh34d> how much of that is devoted to lawyers?
[11:13:59] <CaptHindsight> have a link to whats there?
[11:14:00] * blockh34d guesses at least 20%
[11:14:10] <t12> theres cash in bank for lawyers
[11:14:19] <t12> ive been trying to obtain control but loaing
[11:14:22] <blockh34d> oh they need their money right away eh
[11:14:29] <t12> value of the lab is keeping it functional
[11:14:44] <t12> losing not loaing
[11:14:49] <blockh34d> my lab just got some new kit :)
[11:14:56] <blockh34d> i've almost hit $1000 dollar lab woo
[11:15:05] <blockh34d> second hand oscilliscope
[11:15:17] <blockh34d> Hitachi v665 analog 60MHz
[11:15:17] <CaptHindsight> t12: what did the lab do?
[11:15:31] <t12> dna/gene synthesis
[11:15:41] <t12> cambrian genomics
[11:15:49] <CaptHindsight> I was just talking about them
[11:15:52] <t12> beware thr press cesspool when looking it up
[11:15:55] <CaptHindsight> is it up for sale?
[11:16:01] <blockh34d> t12: trust me, throw a 3d printer and bluetooth in ther, you'll get all the VC you could ever want
[11:16:02] <t12> p much
[11:16:12] <blockh34d> it doesnt even have to do anything
[11:16:19] <t12> im the last one standing whos bot a lawyer or accountant
[11:16:29] <t12> s/bot/not
[11:16:30] <CaptHindsight> t12: did the DNA bead launcher even work?
[11:16:31] <blockh34d> like the zombie apocalypse
[11:16:37] <t12> yeah
[11:16:39] <t12> it works well
[11:16:47] <t12> i build most of the 2nd gen of it
[11:16:55] <t12> based in zeiss lcm
[11:16:59] <t12> on
[11:17:01] <CaptHindsight> t12: one theory is that it didn't so thats why the founded ended his own life recently
[11:17:07] <CaptHindsight> founded/founder
[11:17:15] <t12> no it was fkr v diffnt reasons
[11:17:19] <t12> the tech works
[11:17:42] <t12> its in prototype condition, but it works
[11:18:22] <CaptHindsight> i was just saying how we could use it for the next step in our DNA synthesis
[11:18:26] <t12> but after ceo suicide everyone pretty much lost morale
[11:18:30] <t12> including investors
[11:18:41] <CaptHindsight> t12: so whats the status?
[11:19:03] <CaptHindsight> I can get things running again
[11:19:06] <t12> i have weeks to round up a buyout pruced essentially on liquidation value
[11:19:16] <blockh34d> i'm too paranoid to believe in random suicides with massive financial ramifications
[11:19:19] <CaptHindsight> and give them a faster way to build custom beads
[11:19:19] <t12> before it goes to asset liquidator
[11:19:23] <blockh34d> its probably just too many xfiles but seriously
[11:19:43] <CaptHindsight> ah well figures
[11:19:54] <CaptHindsight> where will the patent end up? open source?
[11:19:58] <CaptHindsight> :)
[11:20:01] <t12> unclear
[11:20:02] <blockh34d> can never be too sure any more... if someone wanted to make some money shorting the group, hiring some thug to take care of an important asset is a quick and easy way to get to that goal
[11:20:17] <t12> its value is hard to determine and people are trying to figure out what to do
[11:20:23] <t12> there may be aome ip buyers
[11:20:30] <CaptHindsight> https://reason.com/blog/2015/06/30/rip-austen-heinz
[11:20:36] <CaptHindsight> ^^ CEO
[11:20:39] <blockh34d> watch your nuts
[11:21:01] <t12> i know what you mean re conspiracy, but this was much diffnt and less exciti g
[11:21:18] <t12> fairly dark but pretty straightforward
[11:21:20] <blockh34d> yes almost certainly thats the case
[11:21:22] <CaptHindsight> t12: the problem is getting all the tools together to rapidly synthesize DNA
[11:21:26] <blockh34d> i'm just paranoid and watch a lot of xfiles
[11:21:27] <CaptHindsight> too many patents
[11:22:00] <CaptHindsight> t12: how many "laser printers" are there?
[11:22:16] <t12> 3 depending on how you count. 1 that is reallyy rigged up
[11:22:41] <blockh34d> selective laser scintering count?
[11:22:49] <t12> if yoy want to check it out sometime let me know
[11:23:10] <t12> its a neat lab to check out, you are local if i remember right
[11:23:35] <CaptHindsight> Cambrian is in the San Fran area
[11:23:36] <blockh34d> that'd be a fun daytrip
[11:23:51] <CaptHindsight> I'm in Chicago lately
[11:23:58] <t12> ooh sry
[11:23:59] <blockh34d> hey yall thanks for input on stuff, t12 good luck with the screws
[11:24:04] <blockh34d> cya
[11:24:06] <CaptHindsight> it's easy enough to build
[11:24:07] <t12> hahah thnx
[11:24:29] <t12> synthesis of dna is easy
[11:24:36] <t12> its making it pure thats hard
[11:24:37] <CaptHindsight> yes and no
[11:24:44] <t12> thats what cambrian really did
[11:24:46] <CaptHindsight> yeah QC
[11:24:59] <t12> microarray purificatiin
[11:25:10] <t12> its a giant in vitro cloning system
[11:25:23] <t12> despite all the othrr statenents if what it is
[11:25:36] <CaptHindsight> what I understood what they did was buy DNA beads and use a laser to selectively launch them for liagtion
[11:25:47] <t12> sorry for all the typos, on phond
[11:25:50] <t12> phone
[11:26:09] <t12> nah way more than that
[11:26:11] <CaptHindsight> no prob, on no caffeine here :)
[11:26:46] <t12> make dna, critical dilution emulsion pcr to isolatr strands
[11:27:01] <t12> barcode the strands
[11:27:07] <CaptHindsight> heh, was just talking about that, i was right
[11:27:21] <t12> sewuence them in illumina, and our custom sequencer
[11:27:37] <t12> that gives yoy map of immobalized beads to correct beads
[11:27:43] <t12> eject those
[11:27:44] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[11:28:00] <CaptHindsight> and then couple
[11:28:43] <t12> yup
[11:29:01] <CaptHindsight> piece of cake :)
[11:29:09] <t12> ultimately for long constructs fragment error rate is limiting
[11:29:25] <t12> yeah its kind of amazing that it works considering the rube goldberg
[11:30:02] <CaptHindsight> if you really wanted to fabricate genes and tailor made stem cells then someone could gobble them up
[11:30:27] <CaptHindsight> but since that would cure vs treat I can see why there are few takers
[11:31:49] <CaptHindsight> what a time in human history
[11:32:06] <t12> its more market issues
[11:32:16] <t12> most of the use is basic research
[11:32:45] <t12> competitor beat us to the core product, maybe
[11:32:45] <CaptHindsight> I was really surprised by how slow the DNA research has gobe
[11:32:51] <CaptHindsight> gobe/gone
[11:32:59] <t12> due to better management really
[11:33:08] <t12> theres tons if room for a profitable business
[11:33:19] <CaptHindsight> we did sequence the genome quicker than originally thought
[11:33:25] <CaptHindsight> yeah there is
[11:33:45] <archivist> if corporate greed get a patent they will go for cure or treatment they rake in money both ways
[11:34:48] <t12> our problem became noone but me was willing to try abd move the busuness after suicide
[11:34:50] <CaptHindsight> I've been wondering if the TPP agreement is closing off the loopholes or stopping and end run around this
[11:34:59] <t12> then lawyers and shareholders descended
[11:35:10] <t12> everyone too scared ti be on the board
[11:35:31] <t12> i offered and lawyers ignired due ti my lack of suit, mba, law defree
[11:35:52] <CaptHindsight> t12: i just put a quote together to build a DNA sequencer using inkjet and linuxcnc
[11:36:04] <t12> theres a company doing this
[11:36:25] <CaptHindsight> yes, but not for low budget
[11:36:34] <t12> ya
[11:37:27] <CaptHindsight> there is a 15 year old open source design called POSaM
[11:37:51] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC507883/
[11:38:32] <t12> brb for a few gotta walk home then will be on a real computer
[11:38:52] <CaptHindsight> uses Epson heads in the design, easily changed
[11:39:05] <CaptHindsight> ok
[11:39:35] <CaptHindsight> t12: currently on a smart toaster oven or similar?
[11:39:52] <PetefromTn_> afternoon folks
[11:40:21] <CaptHindsight> mornin
[11:40:29] <PetefromTn_> morning capt.
[11:41:28] <PetefromTn_> Well today is my birthday LOL getting old
[11:41:40] <malcom2073> Happy Birthday!
[11:41:46] <PetefromTn_> thanx
[11:42:27] <CaptHindsight> doing anything fun?
[11:42:53] <PetefromTn_> meh not really my wife has an eye appointment this afternoon.... does that count?
[11:43:06] <CaptHindsight> loads of fun
[11:43:12] <PetefromTn_> yup
[11:43:20] <CaptHindsight> get to try on frames
[11:43:32] <PetefromTn_> might take a dip in the pool and enjoy some kinda dinner later but other than that just another day.
[11:43:32] <malcom2073> heh
[11:43:46] <malcom2073> Oh hey, how'd your anodizing go?
[11:44:01] <CaptHindsight> yeah after 30, 40 50 nobody seems to care
[11:44:01] <PetefromTn_> the pro's did an AMAZING job on em ;)
[11:44:09] <malcom2073> Lol, gave up on diying it?
[11:44:11] <malcom2073> diy-ing
[11:44:28] <CaptHindsight> dyeing
[11:44:30] <PetefromTn_> no just ran out of time for this customers job and had to make an executive decision
[11:44:35] <malcom2073> Ah doh
[11:56:47] <kanzure> t12: it's not a dna sequencer
[11:57:23] <CaptHindsight> kanzure: he's away right now, bbl
[11:57:47] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/chg9tw7o2rv3ub1/AAAXeKmYUz4h7ERlPvd0SYUJa?dl=0
[11:57:47] <CaptHindsight> he knows
[11:57:48] <t12> back
[11:57:49] <t12> thats the lab
[11:58:04] <kanzure> most people think of dna sequencing when you say dna sequencer
[11:59:15] <kanzure> t12: so the in vitro pcr steps are also automated?
[11:59:18] <CaptHindsight> the laser launcher was used to pick and place known good short oligos
[11:59:28] <t12> depends on what you mean by automated
[11:59:31] <t12> the end to end automation wasnt complete
[11:59:36] <t12> ejection was automated
[11:59:40] <t12> library prep was automated
[11:59:45] <t12> assembly was half-automated
[11:59:50] <t12> lots of hand carry between systems
[11:59:52] <kanzure> well nobody is going to get anywhere if it requires 1000 assembly attempts manually
[11:59:55] <t12> since its basicly in r&d
[12:00:05] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/f5dupaq9bxn0jad/AADqcynzb0moLhlQv3XNxoIRa
[12:00:11] <t12> theres a pic of the assembly rig
[12:00:41] <kanzure> you were in hplusroadmap in march 2015
[12:00:50] <CaptHindsight> yeah but it's not too difficult for real automation engineers/ machine designers to put it all together
[12:00:54] <t12> yeah
[12:00:59] <t12> there was an incorrect focus on early automation
[12:01:08] <t12> instead of r&d in the wetlab parts where it really counts
[12:01:10] <t12> it held us back alot
[12:01:23] <t12> moving plates and liquid around is annoying but not that HARD really
[12:01:31] <CaptHindsight> we discussed how the biomed people don't work with engineers and machine builders
[12:01:37] <t12> yeah
[12:01:44] <kanzure> ideally you want to minimize the number of times you want to move plates around anyway; no amount of automation is going to fix a bad design.
[12:01:47] <t12> lab robotics is stuck in the late 90s
[12:02:04] <kanzure> which variant of phosphoramidite chemistry were you guys using?
[12:02:04] <t12> at cambrian really we should have never purchased the assembly rig
[12:02:12] <kanzure> you purchased an assembly rig?
[12:02:13] <t12> customarrays stock stuff
[12:02:21] <CaptHindsight> who made them?
[12:02:27] <t12> azco
[12:02:30] <CaptHindsight> heh
[12:02:36] <CaptHindsight> more HAHAHA
[12:02:36] <t12> its garbage chem
[12:02:37] <t12> just cheap
[12:02:41] <kanzure> azco got bought recently
[12:02:46] <kanzure> acquired
[12:02:47] <t12> customarrays machine is fluid wasteful
[12:02:50] <CaptHindsight> small world
[12:02:54] <t12> so its hard to put expensive reagents in it
[12:03:04] <t12> much easier to use nice chemistry in inkjet
[12:03:11] <kanzure> are you a chemist
[12:03:14] <t12> neg
[12:03:24] <kanzure> who did cambrian's chemistry optimization and debugging?
[12:03:28] <t12> i'm software/some mechanical engineering/operations etc etc etc
[12:03:29] <kanzure> anselm?
[12:03:31] <t12> what part of the chemistry
[12:03:40] <t12> the synth chemistry was just purchased and never adjusted
[12:03:42] <kanzure> phosphoramidite chemistry
[12:03:49] <CaptHindsight> t12: who did AZCO but it from?
[12:03:51] <kanzure> ah i see
[12:03:55] <kanzure> CaptHindsight: azco does some builds of its own
[12:03:59] <CaptHindsight> I'm trying to identify components
[12:04:00] <t12> anselm was like tech lead and did alot of science direction and a bunch of the more annoying software
[12:04:14] <t12> anselm was effectively the CTO + some dev
[12:04:17] <CaptHindsight> I see Parker
[12:04:20] <t12> though he never formally held that title
[12:04:23] <kanzure> t12: one of the issues i am trying to plan around is things like phosphoramidite chemistry compatibility with different teflon components....
[12:04:39] <kanzure> t12:
http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
[12:05:00] <t12> if agilents inkjet patents are available
[12:05:02] <t12> read all of those
[12:05:13] <kanzure> some of this documentation is... underspecified.
[12:05:17] <t12> i really dont know the synth chemistry
[12:05:19] <t12> its all black arts
[12:05:25] <CaptHindsight> some are. nothing really new just patents
[12:05:42] <kanzure> "and now you use ammonia hydroxylate!" but no info about amounts, concentration, purity, storage container material, etc.
[12:05:48] <t12> yeah
[12:05:51] <t12> you basicly have to figure that out
[12:05:54] <CaptHindsight> yeah like I've been saying inkjet is very closed lipped about tech
[12:05:55] <kanzure> ok well that's stupid
[12:05:57] <t12> thats why the r&d is expensive
[12:06:02] <t12> thats the reality of chemistry + wetlab
[12:06:05] <t12> its never specified well enough
[12:06:11] <kanzure> that's only because people are assholes
[12:06:15] <t12> the difficult part is getting the knowledge into a human, or robot
[12:06:24] <kanzure> no that's not difficult
[12:06:24] <t12> more like first a human than a robot
[12:06:29] <t12> it is very difficult
[12:06:32] <t12> mainly in time, resources
[12:06:40] <t12> you need a dude, a lab, equipment, his training, and alot of time
[12:06:44] <kanzure> you get me the specs, then i'll take it from there
[12:06:48] <t12> months/years later an optimized process comes out the end
[12:06:56] <kanzure> apparently not though
[12:06:59] <kanzure> because there's still no specs
[12:07:01] <t12> transfer of that process is very difficult
[12:07:08] <CaptHindsight> kanzure: that's why you work with people with these backgrounds
[12:07:10] <t12> well its in noones commercial interest to take all that optimization work
[12:07:11] <kanzure> btw you said cambrian genomics just purchased the chemistry from someone?
[12:07:16] <kanzure> did you guys ever have to debug it ever
[12:07:17] <t12> and give it away for free
[12:07:32] <t12> honestly we just paid customarray to run their own machines to supply us with material
[12:07:37] <kanzure> surely there was maintenance you had to do?
[12:07:43] <t12> and we had one on site as a business partnership commitment and as a show peice
[12:07:50] <CaptHindsight> you don't share the experience and wisdom without getting paid until you retire or it becomes a hobby
[12:08:22] <kanzure> ok maybe customarray sent people out to do maintenance for you guys?
[12:08:24] <t12> it wasnt worth running it, because if you dont run them 24/7 you throw lots of ehcmistry away
[12:08:31] <t12> chemistry
[12:08:38] <kanzure> i suspect that's partly due to the design of the machines
[12:08:41] <t12> yeah
[12:08:45] <t12> the machine design is poor
[12:08:48] <t12> but the chemistry just has a shelflife
[12:08:59] <kanzure> well, if you avoid moisture, you can store them much longer
[12:09:01] <kanzure> plus freezers
[12:09:06] <kanzure> and low light
[12:09:08] <t12> it can be increased by storage under inert gas, scavengers, etc
[12:09:19] <t12> but thats all r&d we would have had to do
[12:09:32] <CaptHindsight> space station
[12:09:32] <kanzure> yes, all of these systems must operate under inert gas
[12:09:32] <t12> and there were more important things to work on
[12:09:43] <kanzure> it sounds like requirements gathering didn't work as well as it should have?
[12:09:51] <kanzure> plus unknowns
[12:10:14] <t12> the story is long and complicated
[12:10:20] <t12> i gotta brb for like 20 min to deal with something
[12:10:22] <t12> then will be back
[12:10:32] <kanzure> i'm also interested in hearing about max assembly length you guys did manually
[12:10:36] <CaptHindsight> since people don't share they had to find out on their own, look how bad the POSaM docs are and they WERE SHARING
[12:12:11] <CaptHindsight> just think about how further along they could be if they worked with the right people
[12:12:44] <CaptHindsight> looks like AZCO will sell you anything
[12:12:57] <kanzure> it's just a consulting/repair/servicing/supply shop
[12:13:15] <CaptHindsight> meaning they don't care if it works well
[12:13:28] <CaptHindsight> they just want the check to clear
[12:13:39] <kanzure> azco? nah they make sure their stuff works. but they aren't going to design next-generation machines afaik.
[12:14:41] <CaptHindsight> I wonder who wrote the specs?
[12:14:50] <CaptHindsight> Cambrian or AZCO
[12:15:44] <kanzure> it was just customarray's stuff
[12:15:48] <kanzure> so customarray probably wrote the specs
[12:15:52] <kanzure> or they outsourced to some design shop
[12:16:09] <CaptHindsight> there's a twist, drawer slides used as drawer slides and not as a positioner :)
[12:17:16] <CaptHindsight> I still have a headache from deciphering the POSaM docs
[12:17:23] <JesusAlos> hi all
[12:18:11] <JesusAlos> I attempt to install a 4 axis machine, but are looking for a CAM software 4 axis for linuxcnc
[12:19:17] <CaptHindsight> JesusAlos: open source or closed source?
[12:19:39] <JesusAlos> I mut to test
[12:19:49] <JesusAlos> can be both options
[12:20:13] <CaptHindsight> you just want to test the machine?
[12:20:36] <CaptHindsight> there really isn't any open CAM for over 3-axis
[12:20:37] <JesusAlos> is for production
[12:21:20] <JesusAlos> understand, so no have problem to use closed source
[12:21:22] <CaptHindsight> NX, Mastercam, Solidworks
[12:21:27] <JesusAlos> but is interesting run in linux
[12:21:48] <SolarNRG> Dudes, why the flip is it so hard to weld any metal that's less than 2mm thick? I just burn holes in it with my arc stick welder no matter what I try. any suggestions?
[12:21:59] <SolarNRG> I mean 4mm thick metal is no problem at all with the 2mm rods
[12:22:05] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: get a MIG
[12:22:18] <SolarNRG> if only I had the dosh to afford a mig
[12:22:34] <SolarNRG> does the inert gas prevent the metal from burning and oxidizing?
[12:22:40] <CaptHindsight> I was welding #18 cold roll last night
[12:23:16] <JesusAlos> CaptHindsight:Your options are very very expensive...
[12:23:16] <SolarNRG> I've been stickwelding stainless, lovely stuff, doesn't rust overnight but the only stainless I could afford is like 2mm thick plate and this crap pipe that's like a mil thick
[12:23:36] <CaptHindsight> well better control over the current and yeah the wire and gas help to physically control it as well
[12:24:03] <CaptHindsight> JesusAlos: somebody else might know of lower cost working options
[12:24:07] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I tried 80 amps and putting the clamps closer to the spot I wanna weld but the rod just sticks to the metal and nothing happens
[12:24:43] <SolarNRG> i mean if I leave it long enough the rod goes red hot so i switched the whole thing off and twist snapepd the rod off but then the rod was f****d so that was a waste of 50 cents
[12:24:44] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: maybe a used mig with flux covered wire
[12:24:47] <CaptHindsight> no gas
[12:25:05] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, i sooooooooooooooooooooo want a TIG
[12:25:18] <SolarNRG> if I had the dosh I'd get an EBM
[12:25:23] <CaptHindsight> yeah nice tools are always best
[12:25:40] <CaptHindsight> and if it doesn't work right blame it on the tools :)
[12:25:46] <SolarNRG> but right now I'm working with drill press, angle grinder, stick welder, dremel, hacksaw, diamond and regular files
[12:26:19] <SolarNRG> it's not even the tools it's the fact I'm in the middle east I can work for 3 hours a day b4 its too damn hot to work so I can only do so much each day
[12:26:28] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: yeah I know, you're one step from the cave, rocks and the bucket
[12:26:45] <CaptHindsight> you have been making the best of it
[12:27:20] <CaptHindsight> and you never have enough tools
[12:28:04] <SolarNRG> capt hindsight, tell me about it it takes money to make money and even if I had an EBM I'd be complaining I didn't have an EBM big enough
[12:28:09] <kanzure> actually, more specifically, customarray was basd on some research from a university lab, so they probably just copied all of their procedures from their
[12:28:16] <kanzure> and the machine design was also the subject of a 2005 paper iirc
[12:28:25] <CaptHindsight> kanzure: maybe
[12:28:47] <CaptHindsight> maybe beads on a tray is the way to go
[12:29:15] <CaptHindsight> how fast are the customarray's?
[12:29:18] <SolarNRG> I mean since last year I now have a metal shed, a metal table, a drill table so my little girl doesn't get her bare feet in metal shavings, as of this week it now has electricity and two strip lights! wow
[12:29:25] <kanzure> the cambrian pic of a line of thermocyclers is pretty funny (in the sad sort of way)- a machine to automate that should ideally be far simpler
[12:29:41] <SolarNRG> last year I was using a 50m extension lead to squat a derelict houst to do work with all sorts of risks attached
[12:29:45] <CaptHindsight> kanzure: like others here, yah use what yah got
[12:29:56] <kanzure> they bought them
[12:30:18] <CaptHindsight> t12 might know the drama
[12:30:33] <kanzure> CaptHindsight: i think we should make gene assembly a part of the machine. as well as setup/prep work.
[12:30:41] <kanzure> otherwise it will just be useless
[12:31:29] <fenn> further proof that the universe is imploding
[12:31:31] <CaptHindsight> photocleavable bonded beads on a tray in the inkjet
[12:32:17] <SolarNRG> oh and I fabricated myself a new angle grinder handle out of some pipe, stainless plate and a bolt, I can't believe my angle grinder handle was like a 2cm bolt embedded in a load of plastic, so dangerous
[12:34:51] <CaptHindsight> fenn: :)
[12:35:19] <kanzure> CaptHindsight: fenn lived with some of the cambrian genomics people for a whlie
[12:35:22] <kanzure> so......
[12:35:41] <CaptHindsight> wasn't sure who that was
[12:35:56] <kanzure> fenn? oh just a shadow
[12:36:14] <CaptHindsight> it's ok, close enough
[12:37:11] <CaptHindsight> I wasted a week reading over DNA papers by people with expressive writing disorders
[12:38:11] <SolarNRG> I want to ask a controversial question at this point, do you think it's better if humanity is more diverse or do you think it's better if we try and eradicate genetic disorders such as multiple sclerosis and autism?
[12:39:02] <kanzure> it depends on what you mean by erradicate
[12:39:22] <kanzure> if you mean "provide people with the tools and abilities to choose to not have children with autism", then that's one thing
[12:39:24] <CaptHindsight> we should cure greed first
[12:39:35] <kanzure> if you mean "we should be conducting military sweeps of the population and eradicating all the autists", then that's a separate plan
[12:39:50] <kanzure> but on the other hand, i think most people have it wrong- they should be trying to make kids more autistic, not less
[12:39:52] <CaptHindsight> followed by other socipathic tendencies
[12:40:06] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I totally agree I had a right go at Harry;s mum because harry wouldn't share the paints with my little girl, I think greed is nature not nurture.
[12:40:18] <SolarNRG> i think there is far too much greed atm
[12:41:17] <CaptHindsight> the first part of this discussion should be writing the glossary
[12:41:23] <SolarNRG> I mean we're still not 100% sure whether autism is nature or nurture, some say it's genetic some say it's pesticides, bad water, vaccines etc.
[12:41:33] <CaptHindsight> semantics will get this off track in seconds
[12:42:07] <SolarNRG> ok back to genetics, personally I feel the best most ethical solution is free, taxpayer paid designer babies
[12:42:36] <SolarNRG> so each couple could have the right to conceive and also have say 20 specimins examined prior to insertion so it had the best genes
[12:42:49] <Tom_itx> and that is ethical?
[12:42:51] <CaptHindsight> ever see Gattaca?
[12:42:53] <kanzure> "right to conceive" is something new and unrelated to gene synthesis; i don't think that's fair to throw into this question
[12:42:58] <kanzure> gattaca was boring and a waste of time
[12:43:05] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I see your point, are you saying it's best if we are diverse?
[12:43:12] <CaptHindsight> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/plotsummary
[12:43:29] <kanzure> SolarNRG: i don't know why you have to bring taxpayers into that conversation. that's really weird.
[12:43:56] <CaptHindsight> like I said, off track in seconds
[12:44:12] <Tom_itx> 3
[12:44:12] <Tom_itx> 2
[12:44:13] <Tom_itx> 1
[12:44:15] <SolarNRG> kanzure, sorry that's a personal point I grew up in the UK and both my parents were doctors where they prided themselves for having a free healthcare system the US is still struggling to implement. Personal experience sorry
[12:44:15] <Tom_itx> boom
[12:44:29] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, what do you think is best
[12:44:29] <kanzure> SolarNRG: arguing for government services is fine- that depends on which government you are subscribed to i guess- but right now we're still working on things like "admitting that people are already manipulating their own genomes through families"
[12:45:16] <SolarNRG> kanzure, do you think it's better if we be more diverse or try to "perfect" humanity through whatever means?
[12:45:26] <CaptHindsight> start treating greed and selfishness like pooping
[12:45:53] <SolarNRG> so shall we smack the bankers bottoms and say "bad banker, stop asking for bailouts you bad boy!" ???
[12:45:56] <CaptHindsight> as a society we decided long ago to not just take a dump anywhere and at anytime
[12:45:58] <kanzure> SolarNRG: i think your question is the wrong question. i support individuals using technology to improve their own bodies, but i don't care whether they had to build it themselves.
[12:46:14] <kanzure> SolarNRG:
http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration/
[12:46:52] <kanzure> "good thing i have a document prepared that answers these exact questions, phew"
[12:46:56] <kanzure> anyway, back to shit that matters.....
[12:47:00] <CaptHindsight> we decided that for the good of everyone to only go poop in certain places since everyone benefits from it
[12:47:47] <CaptHindsight> we need to start treating greed and selfishness the same, nevermind the living upstream and pooping in the river
[12:48:00] <CaptHindsight> thats just ignorance and poor planning
[12:48:03] <kanzure> too simplistic
[12:49:00] <CaptHindsight> it's and old lesson that man hasn't been forced to actually follow
[12:49:35] <CaptHindsight> maybe the population will reach saturation and things will change
[12:49:40] <SolarNRG> ok HOW do we eliminate greed and selfishness, I've been to India where the dirt poor piss in the bush, cook black river water, meanwhile I've been to the US where people live in 7 star luxury at least they did 10 years ago IDK about now, the gap between rich and poor is obviously miles wide there is a lot of greed and selfisheness in the world, what do you suggest?
[12:50:12] <Tom_itx> it always will be
[12:50:15] <CaptHindsight> or maybe it's already too late and the problem will be solved by extinction
[12:50:37] <SolarNRG> the super rich will always survive unless a big meteor hits us
[12:50:53] <CaptHindsight> even then they will just grow back
[12:51:00] <CaptHindsight> it's a hard lesson
[12:51:19] <roycroft> as a society industrializes population growth naturally decreases, as offspring are an economic liability to an industrialized family, while they're asset to an agrarian family
[12:51:24] <CaptHindsight> we learned the poop lesson, just not the greed lesson
[12:51:49] <roycroft> we industrialized over 100 years ago, which is why our population growth is now so slow (and most of our current population growth is due to immigration)
[12:52:03] <SolarNRG> 3 year old kids are greedy I have seen this first hand, I think it's in our nature
[12:52:21] <Tom_itx> nature or society?
[12:52:34] <CaptHindsight> some people grow out of it after adolescence
[12:52:43] <CaptHindsight> not that it applies on IRC :)
[12:52:58] <CaptHindsight> it's the ones that don't grow out of it
[12:53:05] <roycroft> south and east asian countries that just started industrializing a couple decades ago were seeing huge population growth for a prolonged period of time, and that rate is just now starting to slow down
[12:53:12] <CaptHindsight> they get stuck in junior high in many ways
[12:53:15] <SolarNRG> we're only sharing ideas and info here
[12:53:18] <roycroft> the problem is that when we industrialized our population was ~40 million
[12:53:28] <roycroft> india/china had almost a thousand million when they industrialized
[12:53:31] <roycroft> each
[12:55:11] <CaptHindsight> we should be identifying sociopaths in adulthood as a problem vs rewarding them
[12:55:34] <CaptHindsight> it;s tough to do when the system is so split between rich and poor
[12:55:35] <SolarNRG> you think the school boards will go along with your idea capt?
[12:56:08] <CaptHindsight> it was more even in the US from the 40-70's but that was slowly reversed
[12:56:11] <SolarNRG> I see your point, elitist schools would never go along with it
[12:56:45] <CaptHindsight> people are just becoming aware of it now
[12:57:12] <SolarNRG> we're talking a lot more now this century than previous ones, worldwide from the comfort of our own homes, this is having a major effect on society
[12:57:45] <CaptHindsight> not everyone but after years of dumbing everyone down and socializing them to follow it takes hitting rock bottom to wake up
[12:58:07] <SolarNRG> almost everyone I speak to knows the TV even the news is total BS
[12:58:19] <CaptHindsight> where did all the productivity go?
[12:58:53] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I've been discussing this with a lot of people and the consensus seems to be UN agenda 21's rio meeting in 1992 which is a communist plot to deindustrialize the west
[12:59:21] <CaptHindsight> started way before that
[12:59:33] <SolarNRG> using "saving the planet" and "cutting greenhouse gases" and "sustainability" as the fronts for this
[13:00:05] <SolarNRG> I mean they sound all good until your dad loses his job at the plant and some 3rd world labourer now has his job the other side of the worls
[13:00:06] <SolarNRG> world
[13:00:17] <CaptHindsight> by the early 60's there were lots of papers on the anti-intellectual movement of society
[13:01:08] <CaptHindsight> public schools in general were a way to get everyone in line and well trained to follow
[13:01:44] <SolarNRG> Weren't they first introduced in Victorian Britain with mandatory schooling, where kids were lined up and beaten one by one by sadists?
[13:02:02] <CaptHindsight> it's a combination of things keeping the non-wealthy in line over the years
[13:02:08] <PetefromTn_> I thought that was catholic shool heh?
[13:02:12] <CaptHindsight> heh
[13:02:23] <SolarNRG> My kid is now 2 and a lot of people talk about "when your kids goes to school" and I'm thinking maybe I don't want my kid to go to school
[13:02:42] <CaptHindsight> John Gotto has a pretty good collection of research on schooling in the west
[13:02:58] <PetefromTn_> I thought he was a gangster ;)
[13:03:01] <SolarNRG> I have a lot of concerns about the lack of critical thinking kids get taught at school
[13:03:09] <SolarNRG> john gotto!?
[13:03:10] <CaptHindsight> that was Gotti
[13:03:11] <SolarNRG> lmgt
[13:03:19] <CaptHindsight> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto
[13:03:33] <PetefromTn_> I keed I keed
[13:04:10] <CaptHindsight> Eisenhower warned back in the 50's to keep the industrial military complex in check or we'd have what we have now
[13:04:29] <PetefromTn_> and what is that?
[13:04:37] <SolarNRG> Do you think I can do a better job of bringing up my child than any public school ever could?
[13:04:57] <SolarNRG> or is mr gatto a compulsive liar?
[13:05:40] <CaptHindsight> it's a train wreck by design, but revolutions do occur when they get too heavy handed and people get too desperate
[13:06:03] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, wasn't he basically warning that Lockheed Martin would monopolize the jet fighter market and delay, ask for more money for a crap plane that's actually worse than what we already got?
[13:06:36] <CaptHindsight> Eisenhower went much further
[13:06:55] <CaptHindsight> i can find the clip
[13:06:55] <SolarNRG> The reality of revolutions is every time "I don't like this government" boom "Oh crap, I hate this new government even worse"
[13:08:47] <SolarNRG> and as for you anarchists out there, getting rid of one government it only gets replaced by your neighbours invading gov, if you're a pure anarchist your only option is to abolish all governments worldwide forever and that's NEVER going to happen
[13:11:20] <CaptHindsight> that one in 1776 worked ok for a while
[13:11:33] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, worked great until jeckyl island
[13:12:04] <SolarNRG> then irs, 16th ammendment, fed, then ww1, fbi, ww2, perpetual state of war yeah I know
[13:12:17] <CaptHindsight> The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.
[13:13:10] <SolarNRG> the core of all nation's problems comes from greed, a lot of people suggest it's wealthy businessmen who lobbied governments to surrendur control of their monetary policy to private central bankers hands
[13:15:13] <CaptHindsight> lobbied, bought, it been researched
[13:17:16] <t12> re
[13:18:28] <t12> cambrians path wasnt really rational
[13:18:37] <t12> alot was driven by what funding could be rounded up
[13:18:46] <t12> and as everyone even figured out what they were doing
[13:18:59] <t12> for being irrationally planned, it produced a suprising amount of good work
[13:19:24] <t12> re lineup of pcr machines, pcr in bulk is suprisingly annoying
[13:19:54] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydjowb969ak3ka0/20150601-20150601-_6010050.jpg?dl=0 that thing can do like 200 plates at a time though
[13:20:53] <t12> all the customarray r&d was in their electrode, not the chemistry
[13:28:28] <CaptHindsight> t12: not surprised
[13:29:43] <SolarNRG> what field is the science of batteries is it chem or phys?
[13:30:05] <CaptHindsight> yes
[13:30:20] <SolarNRG> omg you're using programming ors
[13:30:39] <tjtr33> alchemy
[13:30:49] <roycroft> mostly chemistry
[13:31:20] <PetefromTn_> I thought it was the realm of RC
[13:31:38] <CaptHindsight> t12: how long until they decide to liquidate?
[13:34:52] <t12> couple of weeks unless i find a full buyer
[13:34:55] <t12> or arrange something else
[13:35:08] <t12> likely will be handed off to a large auction house
[13:35:25] <CaptHindsight> then I see it on ebay a week later
[13:35:32] <t12> yeah
[13:36:11] <CaptHindsight> when it comes to $ they move quickly
[13:36:13] <fenn> t12: i'd love to come down and see the lab before it disappears
[13:36:25] <CaptHindsight> everything else, not so much
[13:36:43] <t12> all the investors are just scared and their solution to unknown liability
[13:36:47] <t12> is to burn the house down
[13:36:59] <t12> (aka liquidate)
[13:37:08] <t12> for some reason the normal startup failure route is not allowed
[13:37:14] <t12> which is everyone walks away and writes off their investment
[13:37:35] <CaptHindsight> sadly
[13:37:36] <SolarNRG> trading property for fiat sounds like a very bad deal to me
[13:38:00] <CaptHindsight> it's long past that even mattering
[13:38:22] <CaptHindsight> Cambrian wasn't making a profit yet
[13:38:40] <CaptHindsight> they investors can only go by what they think will happen
[13:38:49] <t12> to turn a profit requires ALOT of capital
[13:38:54] <t12> that noone was willing to put in
[13:39:01] <t12> primarily due to lack of faith/ability to fundraise by management
[13:39:25] <t12> the lack of faith being pretty justified by behavior
[13:39:31] <CaptHindsight> you mean the Peach scent for women wasn't a hit?
[13:39:37] <t12> hahah
[13:39:38] <t12> negative
[13:39:42] <CaptHindsight> heh
[13:40:01] <SolarNRG> easy way to turn profit is to buy property inner city and set up a shop
[13:40:02] <CaptHindsight> so no adults in charge
[13:40:14] <SolarNRG> another easy way, buy crap in bulk from china, flog on ebay
[13:40:19] <t12> no adults in charge, but thats all of the bay area
[13:40:26] <t12> demanding adults be in charge doesnt work either
[13:41:10] <CaptHindsight> how do we form a review panel?
[13:41:26] <CaptHindsight> I never see any real martian tech
[13:41:51] <CaptHindsight> the investors don't seem to be able to break down the tech into simple parts
[13:43:11] <SolarNRG> You know I'd love to own a slot machine laundry with a pinball machine and a vending machine in
[13:43:13] <CaptHindsight> but I guess f you walk in with a patent on the obvious that is impressive
[13:43:27] <SolarNRG> people would just come in and insert coins
[13:43:50] <t12> investors are driven by forces that have nothing to do with the companies
[13:44:02] <t12> like they're investment return cycles
[13:44:18] <t12> they pass some threshold or another on a pool of investments and they get $
[13:44:37] <t12> so if it takes forcing your company through a shitty acquistion/sale to do so, they will
[13:44:44] <t12> even if it means destroying the tech
[13:45:19] <CaptHindsight> yeah it's just a statistic
[13:45:25] <t12> unfortunately capital outside of this model seems annoying to come by
[13:45:34] <SolarNRG> you want to be buying shares in your own company ASAP
[13:45:37] <CaptHindsight> heh yeah
[13:45:40] <SolarNRG> more control
[13:45:48] <t12> investment == loss of control
[13:45:52] <t12> unless you're really lucky
[13:46:10] <SolarNRG> it's all about performing a SHOW a CIRCUS for the investors
[13:46:17] <SolarNRG> convinving them to invest more and more and more
[13:46:25] <t12> yup
[13:46:33] <CaptHindsight> well Uber is doing a good job
[13:46:47] <SolarNRG> ppl don't wanna hear "sorry, um err" they wanna see big smiles laughs, funny cat videos
[13:46:48] <t12> well uber effectively does solve a problem
[13:46:59] <t12> its sustainability is another matter
[13:47:13] <CaptHindsight> whats the current valuation?
[13:47:17] <SolarNRG> cops in LA are doing sting operations busting Uber users for unlicensed taxiing, Uber should be sued for entrapment
[13:47:21] <t12> but i bet every single VC investor has missed a meeting due to not being able to get a car
[13:47:28] <t12> regardless of their infinity $
[13:48:00] <SolarNRG> umm, get a skateboard!? you can take it on the bus
[13:49:45] <SolarNRG> or get a motorbike, quicker, less fuel usage, easier to park
[13:51:11] <t12> finn: happy to tour next week sometime
[13:51:19] <t12> s/finn/fenn
[13:51:25] <fenn> ok cool
[13:51:41] <fenn> i'm in berkeley so i's a short train ride
[13:51:47] <CaptHindsight> t12: was looking at inkjetting to make the beads
[13:51:59] <t12> for the manufacture of the beads?
[13:52:06] <t12> or surface treating
[13:52:20] <CaptHindsight> make the oligos on beads
[13:52:23] <t12> fenn: my time is going to be confusing for a while, but just send a msg or something when you have free time
[13:52:41] <t12> like anchor starting material
[13:52:45] <t12> and cycle chemistry over the beads?
[13:52:54] <CaptHindsight> t12, yes
[13:53:17] <t12> why on bead and not on some other substrate
[13:53:44] <CaptHindsight> can be a tray, slide etc
[13:54:05] <CaptHindsight> beads are easy to handle
[13:54:22] <CaptHindsight> same for a slide
[13:54:46] <t12> what would the bead post-processing be
[13:55:45] <CaptHindsight> some QC and then laser launcher
[13:56:17] <CaptHindsight> then ligation to form the longer segments
[13:56:21] <t12> why laser instead of some other handling
[13:56:27] <t12> what kind of QC?
[13:56:35] <t12> qc being the brutally complicated part
[13:56:36] <CaptHindsight> laser is easy
[13:56:56] <CaptHindsight> laser vs pick-n-place robot
[13:57:07] <fenn> more reliable at least
[13:57:40] <t12> the general layout of the synthesis issues
[13:57:51] <t12> is that you have a per-base error rate
[13:57:58] <t12> once you reach 100's of bases you're mostly wrong
[13:58:02] <CaptHindsight> why is the nanopore so poor at QC?
[13:58:23] <t12> for example on the customarrays, you might be 30% error-free (of 100k strands) per well
[13:58:35] <t12> high A content and you're even worse
[13:58:40] <CaptHindsight> yeah we've been looking at that and I'm going by what other have gotten their error rates below
[13:58:55] <t12> fortunately assembly is somewhat selecting
[13:59:07] <fenn> stringent hybridization?
[13:59:08] <t12> like major truncated peices hopefully dont participate in assembly
[13:59:34] <t12> like if you've aborted halfway through and a ligation or primer region or whatever its really called is missing
[14:00:01] <t12> the QC problem is that you get an ensamble of errors syntheized on your bead
[14:00:11] <t12> spelled right
[14:00:21] <CaptHindsight> ideally a nano-machine that does ligation and QC
[14:00:23] <t12> so really one bead is no better than another bead
[14:00:36] <t12> and one batch isnt going to be much statisticlly better than another batch
[14:00:45] <t12> batch == independent pile of beads, chemistry cycles
[14:00:49] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[14:01:07] <CaptHindsight> I thought all this was already worked out
[14:01:15] <CaptHindsight> I'm new to this
[14:01:17] <t12> its what we spent all our time working out
[14:01:34] <t12> the real guts for us lie in emulsion pcr techniques
[14:01:38] <t12> which are a nightmare to develop
[14:02:18] <t12> so theres all kinds of expensive/slow cleanups you can do
[14:02:37] <t12> like you can gel purify what you've made on the beads to select for some length
[14:02:39] <PetefromTn_> can you make a pure oxygenated flourocarbon emulsion?
[14:02:54] <CaptHindsight> are the nanopore sequencers just poorly made?
[14:03:21] <t12> nanopores are just finnecky as hell
[14:03:23] <t12> and very high error rates
[14:03:28] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, possibly with steam distillation and using the highest grade of stainless steel even then, fluorine is a particularly volatile substance so be careful
[14:03:36] <CaptHindsight> why is what I'm wondering
[14:03:43] <t12> cause its essentially a picoammeter on silicon measuring a reaction wiggling around
[14:03:50] <CaptHindsight> yes
[14:03:59] <t12> theres just barely any signal
[14:04:07] <t12> lots of tiny biochemical things to go wrong
[14:04:12] <PetefromTn_> Didn't you ever see the movie The AByss?
[14:04:14] <CaptHindsight> so it's like reprap mill vs Cincinnati
[14:04:19] <t12> apparently you can do it with a patchclamp rig though
[14:04:30] <t12> nah its just like
[14:04:41] <t12> you're counting integer hydrogens and such
[14:04:43] <t12> its just really hard
[14:05:11] <CaptHindsight> how many times to get an average?
[14:05:34] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, are you referring to that breathable liquid? I head the navy tried something like that and killed 2 sailors from pneumonia
[14:05:39] <CaptHindsight> why not multiple pores in series?
[14:05:48] <PetefromTn_> BINGO!! LOL
[14:05:52] <t12> that can be done
[14:05:58] <t12> i think theres a company around here that does it
[14:05:59] <CaptHindsight> doesn't like sailors :)
[14:06:06] <t12> its just that it doesn't compete with traditional SBS sequencing
[14:06:11] <PetefromTn_> my SON is a sailor
[14:06:14] <PetefromTn_> I was a sailor
[14:06:20] <SolarNRG> I'm a channel swimmer :)
[14:06:23] <t12> it will get there eventually, maybe
[14:06:30] <t12> and for specific kinds of sequencing
[14:07:06] <CaptHindsight> t12: how many people do you think are actually working on this?
[14:07:11] <t12> on nanopore?
[14:07:17] <CaptHindsight> looks like very few
[14:07:22] <PetefromTn_> nanoprobes?
[14:07:27] <CaptHindsight> the whole tech in general
[14:07:35] <t12> dna synthesis tech?
[14:07:39] <SolarNRG> los alamos is doing secret research in this field
[14:07:53] <SolarNRG> billion dollar field shrouded in secrecy
[14:08:02] <CaptHindsight> fast reliable accurate sequencing and synthesis
[14:08:10] <SolarNRG> wouldn't surprise me at all if they had already built non-working prototypes of nanobots by now
[14:08:11] <t12> not many
[14:08:15] <PetefromTn_> not much of a seceret then heh
[14:08:28] <t12> sequencing and synthesis are very seperate markets
[14:08:34] <SolarNRG> PetefromTn_, we knew in the 60's area 51 was working on "flying saucers" that later became the B2
[14:08:47] <CaptHindsight> well you need QC in the synthesis
[14:08:51] <PetefromTn_> my uncled worked on those
[14:09:09] <SolarNRG> I heard the groom lake bar plays the worst game of liars dice in the world
[14:09:10] <t12> theres many people who can do the QC, and do a good job, and do a good job at cleaning up
[14:09:13] <t12> like IDT, geneart, etc
[14:09:20] <t12> its just it doesnt scale up well
[14:09:42] <t12> and ultimately for cell work, people are cloning and resquencing to meet their needs
[14:09:43] <SolarNRG> I also heard the underground of that facility only really began in the late 60's after the soviet spy satellites were becomign too much of a paint
[14:09:44] <SolarNRG> pain
[14:09:49] <t12> so they only need so good of purity
[14:10:01] <t12> ultimately purity limits the maximum error-free construct length though
[14:10:10] <t12> that market is kinda plodding, not that i have data to back that up
[14:10:32] <CaptHindsight> t12: yes for hybrids and cloning, I was thinking about full custom strands but that's a different market
[14:10:51] <t12> also the base cost is high
[14:11:11] <t12> https://www.idtdna.com/pages/products/dna-rna/ultramer-oligos
[14:11:44] <CaptHindsight> t12: I see lots of this crossing over into non-bio apps
[14:11:54] <t12> like?
[14:12:00] <CaptHindsight> tailor made oligomers
[14:12:10] <CaptHindsight> nano-machines
[14:12:16] <t12> could be
[14:12:23] <CaptHindsight> self assembling or reproducing
[14:12:26] <t12> note that for stuff like the dna-oragami
[14:12:33] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[14:12:41] <t12> they're incredibly hard to synthesize and handle
[14:12:49] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder when it will truly be consumer. - a $100 box I can stick a sample of leaf in, and it'll tell me species and fungus info
[14:12:53] <t12> the things that make them do the oragami, make them behave poorly in pcr and synthesis
[14:13:00] <CaptHindsight> have to make it easier
[14:13:00] <t12> like the dna folding back on itself
[14:13:17] <fenn> usb stick dna sequencers exist already...
[14:13:44] <t12> theres likely weird custom synthesis/solid phase pcr methods that work good for the oragami stuff
[14:13:45] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, for starters being able to atom by atom engineer a machine that at that nanoscopic level is a pain because of the pathetic vacuums we can produce even now, secondly at that scale things don't behave at the level we perceive, look up the "vann der wall's force" spelling IIRC!?
[14:13:51] <t12> its a pretty purely academic thing right now, i think
[14:14:17] <SolarNRG> also it's evil tech, they'll inject it into our kids and use it to rewire our brains so we willingly hand over all our pin codes and work as mindless zombies
[14:14:50] <SolarNRG> nanobots will turn humanity into the borg, listen to my old professor at Reading, Pr Kevin Warwick, he prophecises a cyborg future for humanity
[14:15:06] <CaptHindsight> t12: looks close but it also looks like it's not coming together
[14:15:11] * fenn roots for the nanobots
[14:15:14] <SolarNRG> mind u, with all these iphones everyone's on now, we're already halfway there
[14:15:33] <CaptHindsight> I see lots of hacky bio-printers
[14:15:38] <SolarNRG> fenn, you would turn off free will at the flick of a switch!?
[14:15:50] <fenn> sure
[14:15:56] <SolarNRG> a$$hole
[14:16:11] <CaptHindsight> jesus my gardener does not agree
[14:16:25] <t12> something cool will likely come out of it
[14:16:29] <t12> but the issues are pretty hard
[14:16:47] <SolarNRG> a tank that can't be destroyed for at least a year until we come up with nano-virus missiles
[14:16:51] <t12> like even not-quite-denovo protein design is a nightmare
[14:16:54] <CaptHindsight> not really my background, but I'm trying to see where the hangups are
[14:16:55] <SolarNRG> like self repairing armour
[14:17:04] <t12> is there a reason to believe that we're going to be able to do a better job with DNA?
[14:17:10] <t12> i guess the throughput could be higher in the DNA case, expirementally
[14:17:28] <CaptHindsight> have to define "better"
[14:17:32] <t12> i'd say the hangups are first how to actually design the machine, second is successfully building them
[14:18:02] <t12> like in the protein world taking a structure and rationally making it be better at some thing is very hard
[14:18:06] <t12> and kinda laughed at
[14:18:19] <t12> how it seems to really be done is maybe some human guidance, and alot of shotgun expirements and screening
[14:18:46] <t12> mutagenesis expirements cover the problem space faster than human mind rationality
[14:18:56] <CaptHindsight> t12: it's similar in the industrial oligomer world
[14:19:26] <CaptHindsight> more seat of pants than actual testing and evaluation
[14:19:55] <t12> the materials science world is a better about this
[14:20:02] <CaptHindsight> Bayer did an example a few years ago, they started mass testing of resin formulations
[14:20:08] <t12> like actually having math/simulation models to predict the behavior of NLOs and whatever
[14:20:15] <CaptHindsight> more my current area
[14:20:30] <CaptHindsight> why I'm interested
[14:20:49] <t12> oh like
[14:20:56] <t12> just do a zillion random search expirements
[14:20:59] <SolarNRG> well microorganisms have figured all this shit out billions of years ago, you telling me a machine made by man could do any better?
[14:21:01] <t12> for a resin with whatever property
[14:21:08] <CaptHindsight> to me DNA and proteins are another branch of materials science
[14:21:20] <t12> agree
[14:21:31] <t12> they're just governed by much more annoying constraints
[14:21:32] <zeeshan> they are nonlinear viscoelastic
[14:21:32] <zeeshan> ;D
[14:21:44] <CaptHindsight> heh, an understatement
[14:21:45] <t12> mainly being in liquid phase
[14:21:54] <SolarNRG> zeeshan I need to read about 40 pages to even understand what those 4 words even meant brb
[14:22:00] <t12> where everything becomes conformational ensamble and statistics and such
[14:22:12] <zeeshan> they are 2 words!
[14:22:12] <zeeshan> :P
[14:22:25] <SolarNRG> you lost me at they
[14:22:47] <PetefromTn_> Bla Bla bla blablabla
[14:23:06] <zeeshan> t12 if you look at quantum mechanics
[14:23:09] <SolarNRG> so cum is a very ciscoelastic substance
[14:23:15] <SolarNRG> viscoelastic
[14:23:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.cancer.duke.edu/btc/modules/Research3/index.php?id=41 Targeting Cancer with Genetically Engineered Poliovirus
[14:23:40] <zeeshan> and the experiments done for the basis of quantum , it's quickly found that thing's behave very different from our intuition
[14:23:50] <zeeshan> and probabilities must be used to explain things
[14:23:54] <zeeshan> :D
[14:24:15] <CaptHindsight> i was surprised that we understood the virus and associated mechanisms so well already
[14:24:47] <t12> yeah some viruses are very well studied
[14:24:49] <t12> its a weird field
[14:25:06] <CaptHindsight> is anyone working on the Vir-o-matic?
[14:25:13] <t12> ?
[14:25:26] <CaptHindsight> synthesize the virus needed for each form of cancer
[14:26:55] <CaptHindsight> or correcting other mutations that cause illness
[14:26:55] <SolarNRG> so let met get this straight, viscoelastic substances mean that like when you pour a jar of honey but not honey the longer the string is the stronger the force is pulling against gravity and nonlinear means basically quadratic or logarithmic or some other non linear relationship between the viscous liquids elasticity and how far the drip has poured, right?
[14:27:08] <SolarNRG> this is a totally new concept to me
[14:27:52] <t12> virus gene delivery is kinda sloppy
[14:28:01] <t12> there have been some very bad mistakes regarding it
[14:28:08] <SolarNRG> t12, might not be bad for embryos
[14:28:09] <t12> ie cure the disease, induce fatal cancer simultaniously
[14:28:14] <zeeshan> SolarNRG: its not that simple
[14:28:26] <t12> crispr/cas9 is the hot shit in that field right now
[14:28:29] <SolarNRG> zeeshan, enlighten me
[14:28:35] <t12> and its not as magic bullet as made out to be of course
[14:28:40] <t12> not to say its nor important or useful or better
[14:28:43] <zeeshan> first start w/ the basics
[14:28:46] <t12> s/nor/not
[14:29:01] <CaptHindsight> t12: I just though the ground up assembly was further along than it is
[14:29:09] <CaptHindsight> though/thought
[14:29:20] <zeeshan> elastic is something when you pull and release, it comes back to its original shape
[14:29:54] <zeeshan> like a spring
[14:30:11] <SolarNRG> ok, but springs are more for compression, elastics are more for tension
[14:30:20] <CaptHindsight> t12: interesting, thanks for the input, now I understand your interest and comments on inkjets
[14:30:21] <zeeshan> no they are for both
[14:30:22] <t12> i think the part that people coming from software/computer world tend to miss
[14:30:34] <SolarNRG> got that from a level 1st year phys, easy enough concept
[14:30:35] <t12> is how sequence dependent dna's behavior is
[14:30:41] <t12> np, happy to discuss whenever
[14:30:41] <zeeshan> springs can be both compressed and expanded
[14:30:56] <t12> tbh i'm more talk than hard knowledge on these matters, but i've been exposed to it alot now
[14:31:02] <SolarNRG> I understand viscous liquids are more like honey less like olive oil or water
[14:31:09] <CaptHindsight> sure, good insight
[14:31:11] <SolarNRG> like they pour slower
[14:31:21] <zeeshan> exactly
[14:31:22] <t12> and with that time to go to the lab
[14:31:24] <t12> and sift through junk
[14:31:26] <CaptHindsight> t12: especially since you're not from a Bio background
[14:31:27] <zeeshan> the more viscous something is, the slower it pours
[14:31:39] <t12> yeah i kinda wish i had a better wetlab background
[14:31:39] <archivist> thixotropic is odd
[14:31:43] <t12> it just takes so many years to obtain that
[14:31:44] <zeeshan> viscoelastic is take that metal spring and now put a shock absorber with it
[14:31:46] <SolarNRG> so when a viscoelastic liquid pours it will reach a point where it can;t pour anymore
[14:31:47] <t12> years and years of benchwork
[14:31:48] <zeeshan> when you try to pull on it
[14:31:49] <zeeshan> what happens?
[14:31:57] <CaptHindsight> t12: catching up myself
[14:32:09] <zeeshan> the spring and dampener pulls very slowly -- you've effected the rate of deformation
[14:32:29] <zeeshan> but when you release it, it comes back to its original shape
[14:32:32] <zeeshan> but slowly!
[14:32:36] <archivist> really viscous
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment
[14:32:51] <CaptHindsight> t12: harder when the papers are written with the benefit of an editor
[14:33:02] <CaptHindsight> with/without
[14:34:00] <SolarNRG> so it's like a heavily damped elastic band
[14:34:35] <zeeshan> yea
[14:34:39] <SolarNRG> reminds me of 2nd year uni laplacian transforms trying to understand damping as forces both in the static, linear and quadratic level
[14:34:42] <zeeshan> that is a linear viscoelastic
[14:34:45] <archivist> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy
[14:34:56] <zeeshan> nonlinear is a bit different
[14:35:09] <zeeshan> like, let me clarify something
[14:35:18] <zeeshan> the faster you pull the linear viscoelastic material
[14:35:23] <SolarNRG> well I understand quadratics very well from designing solar parabola y = ax^2 +bx +c
[14:35:24] <zeeshan> the harder it is to pull it
[14:35:32] <zeeshan> have you seen a stress strain curve before?
[14:35:35] <zeeshan> its so much easier to explain it using it
[14:35:36] <SolarNRG> sure
[14:35:43] <SolarNRG> 2nd year a level physics
[14:36:25] <SolarNRG> there reaches a point where you pull the material under heat so much it just snaps but that point is when hte material is its strongest and hardest
[14:36:44] <zeeshan> you dont need to always snap it
[14:36:45] <SolarNRG> like fiber optic cables are glass that has been pulled to that point but not beyond
[14:36:51] <zeeshan> you can load and unload it
[14:36:55] <zeeshan> and plot out the stress strain behaviour
[14:37:18] <zeeshan> ofcourse i cant find a curve
[14:37:20] <zeeshan> when i need to find it
[14:37:20] <zeeshan> lol
[14:37:26] <SolarNRG> I know what ur on about tho
[14:37:38] <zeeshan> the most confusing part i found was
[14:37:41] <zeeshan> linear vs nonlinear viscoelastic
[14:37:46] <zeeshan> it took me a couple hours to figure it out
[14:37:50] <SolarNRG> so how are viscoelastic materials relevent to nanotech?
[14:37:53] <archivist> we tried thixotropic grease to reduce resonance of a stepper gear train....what a mess :)
[14:38:10] <zeeshan> SolarNRG: tissue etc
[14:38:14] <zeeshan> act visco elastically
[14:38:35] <SolarNRG> I can imagine it having enormous potential in the field of personal body armour
[14:39:00] <zeeshan> http://pubs.rsc.org/services/images/RSCpubs.ePlatform.Service.FreeContent.ImageService.svc/ImageService/Articleimage/2010/SM/c0sm00097c/c0sm00097c-f2.gif
[14:39:04] <zeeshan> beautiful graph
[14:39:09] <zeeshan> showing linear visco elastic material
[14:39:19] <SolarNRG> what material is that?
[14:39:19] <zeeshan> notice even though the stress strain curve is nonlinear
[14:39:23] <zeeshan> it's still a linear viscoelastic material
[14:39:30] <zeeshan> cartiladge
[14:39:31] <SolarNRG> linearish
[14:39:45] <zeeshan> its most definitely not linear in stress strain!
[14:39:53] <zeeshan> maybe upto .2 is lienear
[14:40:02] <zeeshan> from .3 to .6 its definitely changing shape
[14:40:30] * zeeshan cant explain nonlinear vs linear without talking math
[14:40:52] <SolarNRG> talk math then, it is god's language
[14:41:22] <zeeshan> like for me, im ballooning film up in the lab
[14:41:49] <zeeshan> if i ramp pressure at 0.025psi/s
[14:42:02] <zeeshan> upto 2.5psi, i get one of those curves
[14:42:10] <zeeshan> but if i ramp it to 5psi at the same rate
[14:42:21] <zeeshan> i get a curve thats translated
[14:42:24] <zeeshan> maybe i can post it
[14:42:53] <SolarNRG> anyway I thought long and hard for well over a decade about the whole brain-->computer interface thing and I figured you'd need to keep the head like totally still whilst a micrometer thick plastic plate with a billion tracks tailor made that connected to every neuron was inserted into the brain
[14:43:01] <SolarNRG> nanobots are not the way to go
[14:43:14] <SolarNRG> immune system would absorb them
[14:43:34] <SolarNRG> I mean such an interface would likely be fragile as heck
[14:43:56] <SolarNRG> and it would have to talk to ALL not just some but every central neuron in the body
[14:44:03] <SolarNRG> periphiral nerves won't matter
[14:44:34] <SolarNRG> and even then we'd only be scratching the surface of consciousness
[14:44:51] <zeeshan> :D
[14:44:52] <SolarNRG> we'd likely need some form of super AI to figure out 80 billion neuron's worth of information
[14:45:13] <SolarNRG> plus we'd need a separate system to detect hormones, and other chemicals like nitrogen
[14:46:04] <SolarNRG> kevin warwich who I knew well and spoke 1 on 1 face to face with many times had a peripheral neuron to comuter interface and I eagerly asked him over a decade ago about when we're gonna do a central nervous system interface
[14:46:10] <SolarNRG> they've now done it but it's crap
[14:46:41] <SolarNRG> I can't even weld anything thinner than 4mm without burning holes in it, you need to engineer a system that is like nanometer perfect
[14:47:19] <SolarNRG> the positioning of this interface would have to perfectly correspond to the exact position of each neuron in the head and be inserted slice by slice micrometers apart
[14:47:27] <SolarNRG> without killing the connectivity of each neuron
[14:47:44] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: the nanobots would not even be noticed by the immune system
[14:48:26] <CaptHindsight> storm coming my way, sirens are going off
[14:48:36] <CaptHindsight> day is night, cats are dogs.........
[14:49:04] <kanzure> SolarNRG:
https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
[14:54:35] <fenn> SolarNRG: optogenetics obviates some of the problems with having to connect to every cell; different modes of laser light coming out of a fiber optic cable will only light up one cell in the vicinity that reacts to that particular wavelength, and use mode switching and wavelength switching to address different cells
[14:55:00] <fenn> you would still need a crapton of fiber optic cables though
[14:55:47] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, if you believe evolution is correct why did nature not make enzymes capable of doing the things nanobots supposedly are?
[14:56:23] <fenn> but enzymes DO make atomically perfect macro-structures (DNA)
[14:56:31] <SolarNRG> the smaller you go the stranger things behave
[14:56:34] <SolarNRG> that's all I know
[14:57:02] <SolarNRG> fenn ur right, in which case nanobots already exist we just gotta program our own enzyme production directly
[14:57:52] <SolarNRG> fenn I need a few days to get back to you on optogenetics I need to read more
[14:58:50] <SolarNRG> so like cones and rods in the retina then?
[15:00:49] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: look up lasers and waveguides like fiber
[15:01:30] <JesusAlos> by
[15:01:33] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, I understand lasers very well as for waveguides I was doign a module on terraherz radiation and carving out waveguides was one way of turning em waves into terraherz
[15:02:30] <SolarNRG> isn't this a bit like how radiotherapy causes more cancer than it cures? I mean em waves directly messing about with the DNA!?
[15:02:50] <CaptHindsight> lots of sirens
[15:04:49] <CaptHindsight> going down to my root cellar
[15:05:59] <CaptHindsight> I certainly hope that 20ft of concrete and steel 50 ft under ground wasn't a waste of money :)
[15:11:59] <tjtr33> what and miss all the free ions? its just the bi-hourly thunderstorm. < 1 min of rain but a great show
[15:14:29] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: much more excitement to your north
[15:15:16] <tjtr33> I likes lightnin' but i expected hail with the temp drop
[15:16:56] <SolarNRG> CaptHindsight, prepping for ww3?
[15:25:48] <CaptHindsight> twister missed me by a few miles
[15:27:12] <SolarNRG> you jammy git
[15:27:38] <SolarNRG> im surprised your phone lines are intact
[15:27:41] <fenn> SolarNRG: viruses bind to specific neuron cell types and inject an engineered genetic payload that produces some proteins that cause the cell to fire when a certain wavelength of light hits it
[15:28:14] <fenn> if the virus concentration is dilute enough you only get a single cell in the neighborhood of your optical fiber
[15:28:21] <CaptHindsight> it's mostly underground around here
[15:28:29] <fenn> so you can turn a single cell on and off without being in physical contact with it
[15:28:37] <SolarNRG> holy shit that might actually work, like mutating key neurons into basically cone cells then firing lasers at them so they fire the signal you want
[15:28:57] <fenn> physical electrode stimulation tends to kill cells because the cells are squishy and the electrodes are hard, so the cells think they are not supposed to be growing there and die
[15:29:00] <SolarNRG> how do you get around the virus mutating?
[15:29:16] <fenn> it's a one-shot virus, a gene therapy vector
[15:29:25] <SolarNRG> sounds risky
[15:29:29] <fenn> the virus can't replicate in human tissue
[15:29:51] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG: some of the devs don't mind self testing
[15:30:07] <CaptHindsight> so the problem solves itself :)
[15:33:22] <PetefromTn_> jeez man what is it fantastical and amusing tech discussion day today on IRC??? :D
[15:35:22] <fenn> yes everyone should join ##hplusroadmap and leave these poor machinists alone
[15:36:26] <XXCoder> theres this another amazing discovery - medicine that reverses disfigured prions that cause alizer's. (mispelled)
[15:36:34] <XXCoder> it resets those to correct shape
[15:37:07] <fenn> haven't heard about that
[15:37:23] <XXCoder> mouse tests is successful
[15:37:37] <XXCoder> they are working on human trials
[15:37:42] <XXCoder> havent started
[15:39:05] <fenn> is it based on heat shock proteins?
[15:39:46] <XXCoder> http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/15/scientists-fix-damaged-protein-linked-to-alzheimers-and-brain-injuries/30155889/
[15:41:01] <XXCoder> it dont heal damage but in least it stops it
[15:41:08] <SolarNRG> TBH I'd be happy if I could engineer 19th century tech to enrich my own life
[15:41:40] <SolarNRG> all this tech is fantastic but I can;t make any of it nor can I afford any of it
[15:42:01] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: biomachining and nanomachines
[15:42:06] <fenn> antibody to the misfolded form of the protein
[15:42:27] <CaptHindsight> I'm still using Linuxcnc for controls so it still fits in here :)
[15:42:52] <SolarNRG> sorry you can use linuxcnc for genetic resequencing!?
[15:43:01] <SolarNRG> did I hear that right?
[15:43:30] <XXCoder> there is more and more cnc at dna labs because they do hard work of dropping in each vial
[15:43:33] <CaptHindsight> sure, motion control, ladder logic for valves/solenoids etc
[15:43:51] <XXCoder> fenn: nope not antibody
[15:44:01] <XXCoder> it flips misfolded ones to regular ones
[15:44:16] <CaptHindsight> SolarNRG:
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/f5dupaq9bxn0jad/AADqcynzb0moLhlQv3XNxoIRa look at all the motion components
[15:44:26] <XXCoder> fenn: basically repair not removal
[15:44:56] <fenn> according to the USA today article the antibody causes the protein to fold back to normal, but i haven't confirmed this in the original scientific paper yet
[15:45:02] <CaptHindsight> gantry robots, linear positioners, pick-n-place etc
[15:45:14] <XXCoder> indeed
[15:45:29] <SolarNRG> shit, an actual cnc gene lab
[15:45:34] <SolarNRG> sweet
[15:45:56] <CaptHindsight> that why a nice easy to use G-code generator would be handy
[15:45:59] <SolarNRG> probably doesn't need very tough motors, just very precise ones
[15:46:18] <XXCoder> yeah thats application where preciseness is important
[15:46:25] <CaptHindsight> I've been handing people Linuxcnc on a PC and the G-code wiki
[15:46:55] <fenn> machining tolerances are lower than pipetting tolerances
[15:47:12] <SolarNRG> you should apply for a job with syngenta or monsanto, they love all this gene modification shit
[15:47:41] <CaptHindsight> it's mostly move XY wait, move XY, open a valve/solenoid, move XY, rinse repeat
[15:47:44] <XXCoder> fenn: ahh ok, thought you meant usual antibodies: removal agents :)
[15:47:46] <SolarNRG> dupont are at it too in a big way to make "copyright seeds", i.e. ones that you can't make a 2nd generation from
[15:48:16] <CaptHindsight> laboratory robotics
[15:48:21] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: I truly lothe copyright dna and limited generation seeds
[15:48:35] <XXCoder> suppose most of farm stuff had it, and company goes under?
[15:48:39] <fenn> XXCoder: i think the journalist just got it wrong, and the antibody removes the misfolded protein
[15:48:43] <XXCoder> boom in generation or w theres no food
[15:48:44] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: maybe cures with a time limit
[15:49:00] <SolarNRG> XXCoder, me too the local grocery store now has a GM foods isle and has labelled all the kellogs, betty crocker, heinz products as GM
[15:49:02] <CaptHindsight> say you buy it in 5 year blocks
[15:49:34] <fenn> SolarNRG: that's amazing; how do they know which ones have GMO ingredients in them?
[15:49:42] <SolarNRG> websites probably
[15:49:58] <SolarNRG> I was surprised to see colemans mustard in that isle too
[15:50:20] <CaptHindsight> cancer or CF, no problem 5 year cure for $100K, 5 more for only $89,995, but if you order now....
[15:50:39] <SolarNRG> billions of tonnes of gm food fewer and fewer people will eat
[15:50:56] <fenn> CaptHindsight: why stop there, just install time bombs in people's homes
[15:51:03] <SolarNRG> I think our own fussiness will result in mass hunger again
[15:51:13] <XXCoder> orginial article if you guys has Nature access.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature14658.html
[15:51:19] <fenn> "you were going to die eventually"
[15:51:20] <CaptHindsight> fenn: I think thats already patented :)
[15:52:04] <SolarNRG> how sweet would it be if we could engineer a cnc immortality machine that rebuilt parts of our body as we wanted
[15:52:29] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: there may be secrets we can use in naked mole cat, lobsters and one other
[15:52:39] <XXCoder> they regenerate telmates after cell division
[15:53:00] <t12> gantry robots are the bane of sbs plate handling
[15:53:02] <XXCoder> and naked mole? its largely immune to cancer. cancer can't grow
[15:53:08] <t12> what i want is a high quality 96tip head
[15:53:15] <XXCoder> s/cat//
[15:53:22] <t12> as and end effector on welding style arm
[15:53:23] <SolarNRG> death seems to be when any machine or body has sustain sufficient damage that it can no longer function so maybe we just got to keep ourselves well oiled, well maintained and replace aging parts frequently and we'll live as long as possible
[15:53:34] <t12> and then all the deck/nest issues go away
[15:53:42] <t12> and you have built in plate moving between all your equipment
[15:53:42] <CaptHindsight> t12: what has been the problem?
[15:53:47] <t12> noones bothered to build it
[15:53:48] <t12> thats all
[15:53:48] <CaptHindsight> ah
[15:53:49] <XXCoder> SolarNRG: so far anyone knows lobsters dont die of old age.
[15:53:53] <t12> that + software
[15:54:09] <t12> the software isnt so bad, the GUI and UX is, if bio end users are the target
[15:54:09] <SolarNRG> neither do monkey puzzle trees nor banyan trees
[15:54:25] <CaptHindsight> t12: I offer this stuff but people don't want to pay for it
[15:54:25] <t12> i may try and build that robot
[15:54:35] <SolarNRG> so that's why spongebob's boss is so rich :D
[15:54:42] <SolarNRG> he's been earning money the longest
[15:54:44] <t12> yeah instead they hand thermo like 4million dollars
[15:54:51] <t12> to buy random gantry robots and 8020 and such
[15:54:56] <t12> and glue it all together
[15:55:04] <fenn> people in charge of purchasing are usually not the people doing the lab work
[15:55:14] <fenn> so they don't realize that the machine sucks, there's no learning
[15:55:14] <XXCoder> theyre designing general skill robot now too
[15:55:14] <t12> people in the bio lab are trapped in the bio lab mindset
[15:55:22] <t12> they really need to learn from the industrial automation world
[15:55:32] <XXCoder> there was one robot that learned how to use mill
[15:55:46] <fenn> i'm not sure industrial automation is a good role model either
[15:55:55] <t12> by industrial i mean
[15:56:04] <XXCoder> fenn: its bit more than automaton, they learn how to use
[15:56:05] <t12> the people who with a pile of pneumatics, plcs, 8020, fixtures, etc
[15:56:08] <fenn> lots of proprietary lock-in, ancient protocols, overpriced machinery
[15:56:14] <t12> build machine that does whatever
[15:56:27] <PetefromTn_> Lobsters die on my plate!!
[15:56:37] <CaptHindsight> fenn: I've been using Linuxcnc to make all those things
[15:56:42] <PetefromTn_> and DAAAAMMMMMNNNN are they good
[15:57:11] <t12> another way to view it is the automation market is just too small
[15:57:13] <t12> to do a good job at it
[15:57:15] <t12> or a cheaper job at it
[15:57:16] <fenn> well i meant "the industrial automation world" of which linuxcnc is a tiny hair-thin sliver
[15:57:18] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: yeah unless you're DEATH, its still not dead by aging ;)
[15:57:20] <t12> and the buyers are too rich
[15:57:29] <CaptHindsight> fenn: the only problem is getting the lab techs to be able to write G-code
[15:57:38] <XXCoder> (gonna love discworld)
[15:57:42] <PetefromTn_> don't care as long as I got some drawn butter
[15:58:39] <fenn> CaptHindsight: a lot of academic labs can't afford a pipetting robot
[15:58:45] <fenn> because they are overpriced
[15:58:48] <CaptHindsight> I know
[15:58:58] <t12> used they're not bad
[15:59:00] <t12> 5-10k
[15:59:11] <t12> they take about that much again before they're useful
[15:59:13] <CaptHindsight> I've used ebay for sourcing and built them for $5k
[15:59:33] <fenn> so that seems like a lot of money to me, but meh
[15:59:43] <t12> thats nothing for wetlab
[15:59:54] <CaptHindsight> did you see the startup in Brooklyn?
[16:00:01] <fenn> at least now we have reprap style things if someone wants to go that route
[16:00:02] <t12> a single 384well plate of qpcr reagents is like $500
[16:00:05] <t12> for one expirement
[16:00:46] <CaptHindsight> OpenTrons
[16:01:03] <CaptHindsight> http://www.opentrons.com/
[16:01:31] <CaptHindsight> looks like what they have done is write an easy use use front end and people can share lab routines
[16:01:34] <t12> the real wetlab automation issues are
[16:01:42] <t12> that for some work your expirement changes every time
[16:01:46] <t12> in not very predictable ways
[16:01:51] <t12> if thats the case, automation is a waste
[16:02:07] <t12> for scale up, screening, many parallel expirements it does matter
[16:02:12] <CaptHindsight> "Download and share biology protocols to run on the OT.One. "
[16:02:15] <t12> its just thats not what most wetlab research is
[16:02:25] <t12> its easier to just do it with your hands if its a 1 or 2 off expirement
[16:02:26] <CaptHindsight> robot arms
[16:02:38] <t12> vs trying to navigate describing to the computer how to do it
[16:03:49] <CaptHindsight> you just need one with a hot body for guys
[16:04:34] <t12> opentrons is pretty on their press game
[16:05:06] <CaptHindsight> yeah when I mention a easy to use front end the machinists all say just learn G-code
[16:05:19] <fenn> g-code is the wrong interface for this
[16:05:23] <t12> agree
[16:05:32] <t12> theres sort of an insane number of variables in a single pipette move
[16:05:41] <t12> it doesn't immediately seem like there would be, but there are
[16:05:43] <CaptHindsight> but like industrial inkjet operators you can't expect that
[16:05:47] <CaptHindsight> from them
[16:06:52] <t12> this project very much feels like more computer people pretending they understand the issues in bio
[16:07:01] <CaptHindsight> move pipette to XY, lower Z , vacuum on, see if the fluid is there, hold vacuum, move Z ....
[16:07:13] <CaptHindsight> t12: they are
[16:07:16] <t12> various liquids have diffnt viscosities
[16:07:27] <t12> based on the liquid class, pipette paramaters vary
[16:07:28] <CaptHindsight> yes, that adds to the fun
[16:07:32] <t12> liquid class may change when you mix liquids
[16:07:41] <t12> for smaller or larger volumes your CV's vary alot
[16:07:48] <t12> you may need tip touches for some cases
[16:07:50] <fenn> autoprotocol from transcriptic is the right direction:
http://autoprotocol.org/specification/
[16:07:56] <t12> or non-contact dispenses for other cases
[16:07:57] <CaptHindsight> people think that inkjets are just ink squirters
[16:08:01] <t12> blowout preload, actual blowout
[16:08:16] <t12> issues revolving around bubbles in liquid
[16:08:25] <t12> issues with static charges on pipette tips
[16:08:25] <fenn> but there also needs to be a GUI for rapid point-and-click operation of the machine
[16:08:32] <t12> detection of tip loss, tip failure
[16:08:46] <t12> coordinated pipetting + z motion
[16:08:55] <t12> liquid level handling
[16:08:58] <t12> it goes on forever
[16:09:36] <fenn> static charges, haven't heard of that one
[16:09:44] <CaptHindsight> we've been doing this for for pharma co's for years, yes it's lots of subtle tech
[16:10:11] <t12> yeah sometimes you get charge on the tips from handling
[16:10:17] <t12> eject them, and they fly somewhere unexpeceted
[16:10:24] <t12> you can get static-free tips for $$$$
[16:10:36] <t12> can ion gun them if thats feasable, another step though
[16:10:36] <CaptHindsight> we were printing them
[16:11:02] <CaptHindsight> conductive oligomers
[16:11:07] <t12> i guess my point in this rant is that
[16:11:20] <t12> attempts to abstract what the machine is doing for the sake of the programmer/operator
[16:11:25] <t12> dont work very well for liquid handling
[16:11:37] <t12> all the details matter, and need to be dealt with directly
[16:11:52] <CaptHindsight> I'd say it depends on who is doing it and who is going to operate it
[16:12:11] <t12> yeah, conditional of course
[16:12:27] <CaptHindsight> I have customers with multiple PhD's that crash robots or call me for their Root passwords
[16:12:54] <t12> i've fortunately yet to see a pipette tip through the hand
[16:13:00] <t12> alot of these robots could easily do it
[16:13:22] <CaptHindsight> the Apollo, Gemini generation of scientists and engineers are just about gone
[16:13:41] <CaptHindsight> I'm often the old guy in the room now
[16:14:50] <CaptHindsight> and management just look at all engineers ans scientists the same
[16:15:09] <CaptHindsight> how much salary for the job
[16:15:23] <t12> yeah i've been feeling more and more disdain for businesspeople lately
[16:15:24] <CaptHindsight> they can't tell if you have a clue or not
[16:15:28] <t12> now that i've been having to deal with them intensely
[16:15:44] <CaptHindsight> they also use the 1000 monkeys approach
[16:15:48] <t12> i think most of what i say they hear as peanuts wwhowhwhwohwohwo
[16:16:08] <t12> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04
[16:16:28] <CaptHindsight> use 1000 inexperienced engineers to do the job of a few that actually have the know how
[16:16:41] <t12> their credentials are based on headcount, not success
[16:16:48] <CaptHindsight> like PC's and most consumer products
[16:16:52] <t12> managed 200 person engineering team etc etc
[16:17:00] <CaptHindsight> and it's the same in the lab
[16:17:24] <t12> on the upside, its kinda sweet when you
[16:17:31] <t12> get to be the employee they're using to pad their promotion
[16:17:36] <t12> and theres no actual work for you
[16:18:01] <CaptHindsight> I'm a miracle worker but they don't want to pay for it, but it's not miracles, I've just spent 30 years making mistakes
[16:18:32] <CaptHindsight> t12: yeah there are worse jobs
[16:21:05] <CaptHindsight> heh, sirens are back and my phone went off as well
[16:21:11] <CaptHindsight> those pesky storms
[16:21:20] <XXCoder> yay got my power source and router/grinder at same time!
[16:21:29] <XXCoder> I'll definitely be busy!
[16:21:34] <XXCoder> laters
[16:30:56] <CaptHindsight> t12: looks easy if you have little lab experience and just have to write applications
[16:31:29] <CaptHindsight> that's one reason Linuxcnc works so well, it's written by machinists
[16:32:15] <CaptHindsight> one lesson that the glue gun crowd hasn't learned
[16:35:23] <Deejay> gn8
[16:37:56] <syyl> its rapidprototyping, CaptHindsight!
[16:38:20] <syyl> machining is for dirty blue collar guys
[16:39:02] <syyl> not for the gluegun crowd.
[16:40:16] <CaptHindsight> heh
[16:43:09] <t12> lol thats going to be my new putdown
[16:43:13] <t12> gluegun operator
[16:45:36] <CaptHindsight> LOL
[16:57:08] <CaptHindsight> Help Wanted 2nd shift: Glue gun Operator Programmer, must not use PC's ever
[16:57:15] <syyl> :D
[16:57:21] <syyl> thats great
[16:57:30] <syyl> have gluegun, will travel.
[17:16:53] <Tom_itx> 97°F
[17:16:59] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop
[17:31:21] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx,
[17:31:35] <JT-Shop> 92F
[17:37:00] <Jesseg> Is this a full valid circle?
http://pastebin.com/XUSgmMv0
[17:39:45] <JT-Shop> valid in what way?
[17:40:24] <Jesseg> In a way that a correctly operating machine would mill a full circle .01 deep?
[17:40:52] <Jesseg> I'm a bit shaky on GCodes :)
[17:41:43] <JT-Shop> yes that will be the same as G2 J-1 P1
[17:42:52] <Jesseg> What's P? I heard of J and I and R for arcs
[17:44:03] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G2-G3-Arc
[17:44:24] <Jesseg> Thanks!
[17:50:37] <Jesseg> So without specifying P, there's no way to specify a zero length arc, right?
[17:52:18] <JT-Shop> I would assume a zero length arc would be an error
[17:52:37] <JT-Shop> try it in a sim
[18:05:28] <Jesseg> What's a good free sim?
[18:09:22] <Tom_itx> one you create with linuxcnc sim
[18:20:49] <andypugh> Just choose a sim config from the config picker.
[18:21:15] <Jesseg> JT-Shop, hmmm. How could a zero length arc be an error if it was the exact same code for a 360 arc (assuming one does not mention P)
[18:23:07] <andypugh> The sim configs do everything that real configs do except they don’t try to move real hardware. (some move graphical represntations of hardware, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZwpjUs1xI
[18:23:46] <andypugh> The tool path og a 360 arc is not the same as a zero arc. One makes a circle, one doesn’t/
[18:24:17] <Jesseg> True, but what's the difference between the GCode representation of each, without mentioning P?
[18:25:01] <Jesseg> cool video btw
[18:26:50] <andypugh> If the start and end are the same, but the arc has a radus (IJ or R) then it is a full circle.
[18:27:58] <Jesseg> Okay so there is no way to specify a zero length circle, unless you specify P0. Good enough. Thanks!
[18:27:59] <andypugh> (Actually, I don’t think you can do a full-circle R arc, as all possible circles are valid)
[18:28:19] <Jesseg> correct I did read that in my searches
[18:31:25] <os1r1s> andypugh: Are you familiar on using the hb04 pendant with linuxcnc/
[18:31:26] <andypugh> Can I ask why you want a zero-length circle? It seems that a blank line has the same effect, at less cost :-)
[18:31:43] <andypugh> os1r1s: sorry, not at all.
[18:31:47] <os1r1s> k, thx
[18:33:47] <Jesseg> andypugh, absolutely. I'm making a simple open source 2D cad program for linux and I'm making an export-to-gcode option so I need to understand how it works so I can make it translate correctly. As a data-handler, my conversion routine needs to be able to correctly translate even if it happens to be a zero length line or arc. A zero length arc may serve no purpose, but it can exist in the native format, so my handler needs to deal with it without crashi
[18:33:47] <Jesseg> ng or creating an invalid or incorrect gcode file:)
[18:35:36] <Jesseg> so I guess to notate a zero length arc I would use P0, or just turn it to an XY
[18:36:21] <cradek> did you test what a P0 arc does?
[18:36:31] <andypugh> It seems to me that if an arc is zero length then you should create no G-code from it.
[18:36:33] <Jesseg> cradek, no.
[18:36:44] <cradek> do the docs say what it does?
[18:37:07] <Jesseg> andypugh, yes, and if a line is zero length, I should create no G-Code for that either ;) and a number of other optimizations.
[18:37:09] <andypugh> It may be a “real†artifact in the input file, but it makes no sense to create a G-code move from it.
[18:41:49] <PetefromTn_> os1r1s I think Connor bought one of those possibly maybe ask him about it..
[18:42:11] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: I've got it working ok, but for some reason the Y axis goes the wrong way
[18:42:30] <os1r1s> X and Z both increase when you turn to the right. But Y decreases
[18:42:37] <andypugh> Maybe you are turning the knob the wrong way :-)
[18:43:21] <os1r1s> Well, I would expect them all to function the same way. To the right should increase all, to the left should decrease. Does that sound incorrect?
[18:44:20] <andypugh> No, I was being faceitious
[18:44:25] <os1r1s> :) Ok
[18:44:45] <andypugh> You may need to negate a scale somewhere, but I am not sure where.
[18:45:11] <os1r1s> andypugh: The newest config for it is dynamic tcl, so its a bit more complex
[18:45:45] <andypugh> You might have to ask one or both of the world’s remainign TCL coders then :-)
[18:46:24] <os1r1s> hehe
[18:46:45] <os1r1s> Could be a cruel Chinese joke too since this thing is straight from China
[18:47:13] <os1r1s> Other question is, can linuxcnc filter a noisy index sensor? Instead of putting circuitry in place to clean it up
[18:49:40] <andypugh> Yes, look at the “lowpass†HAL component
[18:49:55] <os1r1s> andypugh: Cool. Thx
[18:52:09] <andypugh> Right, time to leave. Night all
[18:56:54] <CaptHindsight> http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/infrastructure/plastic-roads-sound-like-a-crazy-idea-maybe-arent
[19:06:23] * PetefromTn_ tries to brainstorm about a NEW product that I can machine on the linuxCNC Cincinatti Arrow 500....HMMMMmmmmmmmm
[19:08:04] * PetefromTn_ finds his head might just explode trying :D
[19:13:35] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: Any new anodizing?
[19:13:58] <PetefromTn_> nothing new to report :D
[19:14:17] <PetefromTn_> finished that big job and got it anodized and shipped yesterday
[19:14:18] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: tools for the left handed
[19:15:05] <PetefromTn_> ya know I would honestly LOVE to make things for disabled people or something like that. I just know there is a lot of legalities involved.
[19:15:59] <CaptHindsight> metal prosthetic's
[19:16:30] <PetefromTn_> yeah altho much of that seems to be getting done by GGG's nowadays it seems
[19:16:59] <CaptHindsight> call your's the T1000's
[19:17:02] <os1r1s> GGGs?
[19:17:24] <CaptHindsight> oh T800
[19:17:33] <PetefromTn_> Glorified Glue Guns
[19:17:38] <CaptHindsight> the T1000's were lquid
[19:17:55] <PetefromTn_> I'll be back ;)
[19:18:20] <CaptHindsight> http://s019.radikal.ru/i618/1206/28/93fa4c4551eb.jpg
[19:18:25] <os1r1s> The company I work for makes implants. Ankles, shoulders, etc, etc. Cool stuff
[19:19:34] <PetefromTn_> honestly it would not have to be something so technical and internal as an implant...really just something that would help them in any way would make me pretty pleased to make them.
[19:20:02] <os1r1s> You should look at the plans for the e-nable and see what you can fabricate
[19:20:23] <PetefromTn_> wth is that?
[19:20:41] <CaptHindsight> http://enablingthefuture.org/upper-limb-prosthetics/the-raptor-hand/
[19:20:45] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: Its one of the hands people build on 3d printers
[19:20:59] <PetefromTn_> yeah I don't have a 3D printer
[19:21:10] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: But you can take the plans and adapt it to the mill
[19:21:13] <PetefromTn_> I am talking about some 3d milled part on the VMC
[19:21:21] <os1r1s> Right. Mill the parts :)
[19:21:23] <CaptHindsight> make improved versions
[19:21:37] <PetefromTn_> that is probably not something people would want made from metal
[19:21:37] <os1r1s> I've printed one. I dont' think any of the parts are that complex
[19:22:04] <PetefromTn_> I recently met a fellow who was in a tragic car crash and he is mostly unable to walk
[19:22:16] <CaptHindsight> also attachments, whisk, spatula, brush, hook, slicer, horn, banjo incinerator etc
[19:22:27] <PetefromTn_> he has some problems with standing up
[19:22:37] <PetefromTn_> and he is a pretty big guy
[19:23:01] <CaptHindsight> or exoskeletons
[19:23:16] <PetefromTn_> the stand that he uses to learn balance again was marginal in it's ability to keep from falling over should he loose it badly
[19:23:48] <PetefromTn_> I offered to help and fabricated some outriggers for the stand that helped him and made them adjustable so they could move it from room to room in their house.
[19:23:55] <CaptHindsight> http://rewalk.com/rewalk-robotics-unveils-sixth-generation-personal-system-home-community-use-rewalk-6-0/
[19:24:19] <CaptHindsight> http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/medical-robots/rewalk-robotics-new-exoskeleton-lets-paraplegic-stroll-the-streets-of-nyc
[19:24:35] <PetefromTn_> things like this altho something a bit more generic and able to be adapted to many peoples uses
[19:24:38] <CaptHindsight> they should have these at walmart
[19:25:06] <PetefromTn_> this is awesome
[19:25:36] <PetefromTn_> I would give my eye teeth to be a part of a project like that which allows me to help people and make some money at the same time.
[19:26:08] <CaptHindsight> or a segway version
[19:26:33] <CaptHindsight> I'm not sure what the battery life is on the walker
[19:28:02] <fenn> the DEKA iBOT could go up stairs and balance on one wheel but it was discontinued and lots of people are upset that they can't get them
[19:28:20] <fenn> sort of a segway wheelchair
[19:28:42] <CaptHindsight> investors pull the plug?
[19:29:31] <CaptHindsight> fenn: where is medicine on repairing nerve damage it spinal injuries?
[19:29:34] <SpeedEvil> I wanna cargolifter.
[19:29:43] <CaptHindsight> it/in
[19:29:57] <CaptHindsight> no nerve splicer yet?
[19:32:57] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22302646 Rapid, effective, and long-lasting behavioral recovery produced by microsutures, methylene blue, and polyethylene glycol after completely cutting rat sciatic nerves.
[19:34:03] <fenn> they can heal severed spinal cords in mice and humans, and someone is talking about doing a head transplant
[19:34:37] <fenn> most spinal injuries entail a lot of trauma to the spinal cord which makes it unfeasible to repair
[19:34:42] <CaptHindsight> head or body :)
[19:34:57] <CaptHindsight> depends on what they save afterwards
[19:36:51] <fenn> lots of references here about spinal cord fusion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4322377/
[19:37:31] <CaptHindsight> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11672996/Russian-man-to-undergo-worlds-first-full-head-transplant.html
[19:40:46] <fenn> there's also been quite a bit of progress with growing back fingers using cellular scaffolding, growth factors (special proteins), stem cells, and electric stimulation
[19:42:08] <fenn> http://drjamesbaum.com/2012/08/can-humans-regrow-fingers/
[19:44:06] <CaptHindsight> you'd think that projects like these would become national projects like going to the moon
[19:44:45] <fenn> lee and alan spievack
[19:46:08] <X2FreakBuilder> I was wondering if anyone on here had any advice on what to do when my parallel port pci card reads "disabled" in the terminal? I can't get LinuxCNC to communicate with my drivers
[19:47:31] <cpresser> X2FreakBuilder: where exactly do you see 'disabled'?
[19:47:39] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: does it happen when the system is running? at first install?
[19:48:36] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: pastebin.ca (or similar) what you have in the terminal
[19:48:55] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: Yes. I'm in my LinuxCNC build and in the command prompt i type "lspci -vv"
[19:49:31] <X2FreakBuilder> Here is a link to a post I made on the forums:
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/49-basic-configuration/29432-pci-parallel-port-card-disabled
[19:49:45] <X2FreakBuilder> That has what was returned about the controller
[19:52:02] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: does this happen every time it boots?
[19:52:24] <CaptHindsight> sudo modprobe paraport
[19:52:29] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: Yes. I have yet to successfully communicate with the controller.
[19:52:37] <CaptHindsight> ^^ should load the lpt kernel module
[19:53:56] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: This is what I get with that command: FATAL: Module paraport not found
[19:54:28] <CaptHindsight> sudo modprobe parport
[19:54:33] <CaptHindsight> sorry my typo
[19:54:43] <CaptHindsight> one to many a's
[19:55:12] <X2FreakBuilder> I'll try that in just a second. I'm restarting the machine as I had tried a few different things to get the drivers working and may have made some changes.
[19:58:09] <X2FreakBuilder> It asked for my admin password. I put that in. It went through but no output in the terminal
[19:59:45] <CaptHindsight> sounds normal
[20:00:12] <CaptHindsight> run " lspci -k " and post the pastebin
[20:00:20] <CaptHindsight> no quotes
[20:01:10] <CaptHindsight> ooh is NetMos Technology Device 9900 even supported and know to work?
[20:01:59] <X2FreakBuilder> I saw someone using it over the course of my googling
[20:03:58] <X2FreakBuilder> http://pastebin.com/aKNLGUc6
[20:04:06] <X2FreakBuilder> That is the output of lspci -k
[20:04:18] <CaptHindsight> might not be a kernel driver for that version card
[20:04:43] <CaptHindsight> didn't load
[20:05:08] <CaptHindsight> after you rebooted
[20:05:22] <CaptHindsight> did you run the sudo modprobe parport ?
[20:05:22] <X2FreakBuilder> Is there anything I can do to fix that or do I need to buy a different card?
[20:05:33] <X2FreakBuilder> ahh. No i didn't run that after the reboot. Let me try that
[20:05:38] <CaptHindsight> that loads the driver if it's there
[20:06:00] <CaptHindsight> try that and then pastebin the lspci -k
[20:06:39] <CaptHindsight> if it's not there after that, then the driver is not in the kernel
[20:07:31] <CaptHindsight> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/18-computer/15955-moschip-mcs9901-problem-with-the-installation
[20:07:58] <CaptHindsight> 4 years ago it was noticed that the driver only worked with older kernels, <2.6.11
[20:10:43] <X2FreakBuilder> Is there any way to downgrade or should I just buy a new parallel card
[20:10:45] <X2FreakBuilder> ?
[20:11:02] <CaptHindsight> new card for $10
[20:11:25] <CaptHindsight> pci or pcie?
[20:11:36] <X2FreakBuilder> Pci-e 1x hopefully
[20:11:53] <X2FreakBuilder> and it needs to be a short card, and have a low profile adapter since the pc I'm using is compact
[20:12:21] <X2FreakBuilder> http://www.amazon.com/SD-PEX10005-PCI-Express-Parallel-MCS9900-Chipset/dp/B003D3MFHC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1437266953&sr=8-1&keywords=pci-e+1x+parallel&pebp=1437266953662&perid=1HQPWH4G5K9C8J4FXYKS
[20:12:25] <X2FreakBuilder> That is the one I bought
[20:14:07] <CaptHindsight> I get mine on ebay for $10
[20:14:16] <CaptHindsight> let me find a link....
[20:14:44] <X2FreakBuilder> I just went to amazon since I have prime shipping and I was ordering it thursday night hoping to get it running by today so I wanted it here asap
[20:19:00] <CaptHindsight> yes, and some LPT chips don't support EPP mode. Are you using this with a fpga card or just a breakout board with steppers?
[20:19:35] <X2FreakBuilder> Does EPP mode need to be turned on? Because I believe I turned that off in the BIOS while tinkering trying to get this wo work
[20:19:39] <CaptHindsight> I wish manufacturers would post linux driver info vs just "supports Linux"
[20:19:48] <X2FreakBuilder> What is an FPGA card?
[20:20:01] <X2FreakBuilder> Basically I'm going from this parallel port to a Gecko 540
[20:20:27] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: the BIOS would only have info on the onboard LPT controller
[20:20:41] <CaptHindsight> which mainboard is this?
[20:21:12] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: you're not using an FPGA card so it doesn't matter
[20:22:07] <X2FreakBuilder> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883280382&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-BensBargains.com-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=404255&SID=437746_desktop
[20:22:13] <X2FreakBuilder> That is the machine I bought to run it
[20:22:29] <X2FreakBuilder> It wasn't that price on sale, but it was that machine
[20:24:58] <CaptHindsight> slow site tonight
[20:25:55] <X2FreakBuilder> Did you happen to find an example of one that will work for my setup?
[20:26:29] <X2FreakBuilder> I'm on ebay and amazon and I'm having a tough time finding one
[20:26:58] <CaptHindsight> was waiting for newegg to load, 1 sec
[20:27:02] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: In order to drive my g540 from an lpt port I needed epp mode
[20:28:30] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Parallel-Port-DB25-LPT-Printer-to-PCI-E-Express-Card-Converter-Adapter-w-Lo-/251789168552?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9fcdcfa8
[20:28:43] <PetefromTn_> X2FreakBuilder Are you building a copy of the HOSS X2 Freak or it this just a good name
[20:29:02] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Port-DB25-LPT-Printer-to-PCI-E-Express-WITH-LOW-PROFILE-BRACKET-A119-/331350157742
[20:29:11] <X2FreakBuilder> PetefromTn: Building a copy of his X2 Freak
[20:29:19] <PetefromTn_> aah interesting
[20:29:26] <PetefromTn_> but running it on LinuxCNC?
[20:30:15] <CaptHindsight> this is the one I used last year several times
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parallel-Port-DB25-LPT-Printer-to-PCI-E-PCI-Express-Card-Adapter-Converter-/170992964709
[20:31:26] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: What about those ones tells you that they work? Is it the chipset that I should be looking at?
[20:31:54] <CaptHindsight> avoid anything Moschip
[20:32:12] <X2FreakBuilder> PetefromTn_: Yeah. I ordered his plans from his website, and they're quite good. For the time being I'm going with LinuxCNC until I decide to upgrade to Mach4 with an ethernet controller
[20:32:38] <CaptHindsight> upgrade!?
[20:32:41] <PetefromTn_> LOL
[20:32:55] <X2FreakBuilder> PetefromTn_: For now I'm 3d printing the motor mounts for a standard x2 using the leadscrews. Then I'm going to use that CNC functionality to cut the pieces for the X2 Freak. Already have the ballscrews for the Freak in hand
[20:32:57] <_methods> buwhahahahha
[20:32:57] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: I'm going the opposite way. Ripping mach out and putting linuxcnc in
[20:33:05] <CaptHindsight> _methods: lol
[20:33:18] <_methods> i had to stop wahat i was doing for that
[20:33:31] <PetefromTn_> _methods HIGH FIVE!
[20:33:36] <CaptHindsight> mach hit my bed, twice!
[20:34:09] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: Haha. The idea was that Mach4 would be a bit easier to use for my dad. The wizards for cutting pockets and engraving look super convenient as he doesn't use CAD
[20:36:02] <X2FreakBuilder> However I will say that LinuxCNC caught me offguard with how easy it was to set up and run on my other computer. I had motors moving in 15 minutes. Unfortunately that PC won't be used for the CNC machine
[20:36:28] <CaptHindsight> Try to avoid the 9805 and 9815 chips which are quite old and were a bit flakey, often difficult to set as input.
[20:36:28] <CaptHindsight> The 9845, 9865 and 9901 chips (often designated MCS9845, MCS9865 and MCS9901) work fine
[20:37:10] <CaptHindsight> MCS9901 was fine with the old kernels
[20:37:47] <CaptHindsight> ok Saturday night, time to get my dancin shoes on
[20:38:21] <X2FreakBuilder> I'm trying my hardest to find one on Amazon or Newegg since I get 2 day shipping on both of those.
[20:38:40] <CaptHindsight> not easy at times
[20:38:55] <PetefromTn_> It's really hard to beat linuxCNC/Mesanet combo IMHO
[20:39:23] <X2FreakBuilder> I keep seeing mesanet, but I don't know what that is
[20:39:37] <PetefromTn_> mesanet.com
[20:40:41] <PetefromTn_> quality components for a reasonable price that implement with LinuxCNC very quickly and easily that have TONS of I/O options
[20:41:20] <X2FreakBuilder> Are they an alternative to something like an Ethernet SmoothStepper?
[20:41:44] <PetefromTn_> honestly they make the smoothstepper look like a joke really.
[20:42:05] <X2FreakBuilder> Or are they a replacement for the PCI card I'm looking for?
[20:42:24] <X2FreakBuilder> So would I need a PCI parallel card AND a mesanet component of some kind?
[20:42:33] <PetefromTn_> I am running a Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC with a 5i25/7i77 combo and it pretty eaily runs the entire machine
[20:42:38] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: The smoothstepper has a very different mindset from a mesa board.
[20:42:51] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: For your g540 you just need a 6i25 of 5i25
[20:42:54] <os1r1s> Thats it
[20:43:30] <X2FreakBuilder> And what would one of those run?
[20:43:35] <X2FreakBuilder> And does it run from an ethernet interface?
[20:43:42] <PetefromTn_> did not realize you were using a G540 but I am sure there are options from mesanet
[20:43:59] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: That a PCI or PCIe card that plugs into the G540
[20:44:02] <PetefromTn_> you might ask PCW here as he is the resident expert
[20:44:04] <os1r1s> And supports linuxcnc well
[20:45:04] <X2FreakBuilder> Honestly their website makes it hard to see what I'm even looking at.
[20:45:41] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: I have an ethernet smoothstepper and usb smoothstepper that I'll be selling shortly. And I have a 6i25 on order.
[20:46:01] <X2FreakBuilder> I'm having a tough time. What does their 6i25 run?
[20:46:09] <X2FreakBuilder> and their 5i25 actually?
[20:46:15] <CaptHindsight> thats a FPGA card
[20:46:19] <os1r1s> One is PCI, one is PCIe
[20:46:26] <os1r1s> You use linuxcnc to drive either
[20:46:32] <CaptHindsight> you plug in daughter cards to the FPGA cards
[20:46:43] <CaptHindsight> daughters for steppers, servos, IO etc
[20:46:54] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: Or you can go straight to a G540
[20:47:07] <CaptHindsight> yes with an LPT card
[20:47:11] <PetefromTn_> can you? That would be awesome
[20:47:22] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: You can plug it directly in
[20:47:33] <CaptHindsight> do the G540's work ok with a good LPT vard?
[20:47:39] <CaptHindsight> *card
[20:47:56] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: It works fine for me. But I'm moving to the 6i25 which should plug directly into it
[20:48:32] <X2FreakBuilder> This is all new to me, but it looks like they're all around $100 or so, so I guess if one of those will fit in my machine I may just get one of those
[20:48:43] <CaptHindsight> I hear stories (tall tales) about Gecko issues
[20:49:16] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: Mesa also has an ethernet version FPGA card
[20:49:23] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: I may convert later. But I have two machines using G540s both running from linuxcnc now.
[20:50:22] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: Moving from mach3 to linuxcnc was a pretty significant move all by itself.
[20:50:39] <X2FreakBuilder> So are these cards that are installed in the computer, or could I put them in an external enclosure?
[20:50:44] <X2FreakBuilder> Space is at a premium in my case
[20:51:07] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: You just need 1. If you have a spare connector it can support two connections.
[20:51:31] <X2FreakBuilder> os1r1s: But does it go inside the case of the computer?
[20:51:35] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: Yes
[20:52:14] <X2FreakBuilder> os1r1s: That may be a problem. The machine I bought to run this is a flat one that I don't believe will fit a full length PCI card. That is why I bought the card I did. Because it is short and goes in a low profile hole
[20:52:39] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: Both the 6i25 and 5i25 are low profile
[20:52:42] <os1r1s> Or can be
[20:53:03] <CaptHindsight> they give you the option of either bracket
[20:53:06] <X2FreakBuilder> Is this the one:
http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&filter_name=6i25&sort=p.price&order=ASC&product_id=58
[20:53:27] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: If you have PICe available
[20:53:29] <os1r1s> PCIe
[20:53:54] <CaptHindsight> yeah and the 6i24 has more IO if you need that
[20:53:57] <X2FreakBuilder> I do have a slot available, but it needs to use an extension cable, as the PCIe slot is not perpendicular to the motherboard
[20:54:14] <CaptHindsight> $10 on ebay
[20:54:18] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: An extension cable or bracket?
[20:54:36] <X2FreakBuilder> Extension cable. I already have one that I bought for this Parallel card that doesn't work
[20:54:52] <X2FreakBuilder> Depth in the case is going to be the main point. Trying to find dimensions on their website
[20:55:03] <CaptHindsight> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=83_85&product_id=300 if you think that you need more IO
[20:55:37] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: But then you have a hard time doing something with those 50 pin plugs
[20:56:03] <CaptHindsight> up to you and how much IO you need
[20:56:08] <X2FreakBuilder> What is the advantage of one of these mesanet cards VS just using a parallel card to the gecko?
[20:56:35] <os1r1s> X2FreakBuilder: The step timing loop is done on the card. So its more accurate.
[20:56:39] <CaptHindsight> parallel port card uses software stepping
[20:56:57] <CaptHindsight> limited by RT kernel and hardware/BIOS
[20:57:08] <PetefromTn_> NIGHT AND DAY
[20:57:22] <X2FreakBuilder> So will the machine run faster, or is it a tolerances thing on the final cut piece?
[20:57:29] <CaptHindsight> FPGA allows for faster stepping even on slow responding hardware
[20:57:31] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: I'm curious why you think night and day.
[20:57:44] <PetefromTn_> well I have had both
[20:58:03] <PetefromTn_> harware stepping versus software stepping
[20:58:07] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: run the latency test on your machine
[20:58:09] <PetefromTn_> no comparison
[20:58:24] <CaptHindsight> see what you get
[20:58:26] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: I've ordered one so I'm sold on it. I'm just curious about your experience :)
[20:59:08] <PetefromTn_> I thought you said you had mesanet cards on your machines/
[20:59:31] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: I ordered a 6i25 to drive my g540. I am using an LPT port presently.
[20:59:41] <os1r1s> (Two G540s on two LPT ports)
[21:00:02] <os1r1s> But I'm waiting on the shipment. So I'm curious what advantage I will see when it gets here :)
[21:00:04] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: I ran it earlier and I want to say I was at 11800 if that makes sense?
[21:00:13] <PetefromTn_> I have no experience with the G540 but I did have a machine running servos and G320x's
[21:00:28] <PetefromTn_> now I have a commercial machine runnning linuxCNC and Mesanet cards/servos
[21:01:24] <os1r1s> The speeds on that commercial machine probably smoke anything you would do on a desktop mill though
[21:01:37] <X2FreakBuilder> Anyone have any idea how long these Mesa cards are? I'm trying to see if one will fit in the case
[21:01:44] <PetefromTn_> if you are using steppers on parallell port now and switch to mesanet hardware stepping I would be surprised if you were not able to see a marked difference in speed/performance assuming your setup was not already maxed out/optimized
[21:01:49] <CaptHindsight> 11800 nS = 11.8uS, thats great for stepping
[21:02:47] <PetefromTn_> os1r1s My RF45CNC conversion would run ALMOST 300IPM which was quite fast for what it was
[21:02:57] <CaptHindsight> 6i25 is 5"
[21:03:03] <PetefromTn_> my CIncinatti ARROW 500 VMC can run up to 735IPM
[21:03:14] <PetefromTn_> but I keep it about 300 max to help my sanity
[21:03:17] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: I'm at 15uS latency running GLXgears and flipping it between screens. But I still expect it to be smooth.
[21:03:25] <os1r1s> 735 is crazy
[21:03:51] <PetefromTn_> could probably go faster never pushed it past that when we were setting up the machine
[21:04:08] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: wimp :)
[21:04:20] <PetefromTn_> 20x20x20 envelope really 4-500 is PLENTY
[21:04:21] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: Would this card work?
http://www.amazon.com/Vantec-1-Port-Parallel-PCIe-UGT-PCE10PL/dp/B00EA0WKIG/
[21:04:28] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight YUP whats it to ya ;)
[21:04:44] <os1r1s> PetefromTn_: Whats the fastest cutting speed you have used?
[21:04:54] <os1r1s> Not just rapids
[21:05:12] <PetefromTn_> I have run a 3d cut at like 300 or so but my spindle only runs 6k max so it is kinda pointless
[21:05:55] <PetefromTn_> I have a heavy duty router spindle setup for engraving and light milling I could probably take advantage of much faster feedrates but I only used it twice so far hehe
[21:06:38] <CaptHindsight> oh looks like an OXP chipset
[21:06:53] <CaptHindsight> OXP 9522
[21:08:00] <CaptHindsight> PCIe840/952 PCI Express Parallel
[21:08:16] <CaptHindsight> C) Copyright 2007 Oxford Semiconductor Ltd.
[21:08:59] <PetefromTn_> I need a little amp for my home powered subwoofer. The amp in it died...
[21:09:31] <Tom_itx> mine was built in the sub
[21:09:41] <PetefromTn_> so was this
[21:09:47] <PetefromTn_> but it died after a LONG time
[21:09:52] <PetefromTn_> so now I need another one
[21:10:55] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: can you afford the $16.15?
[21:11:33] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: The price doesn't really matter a ton. I'm just trying to get it here as fast as possible
[21:11:36] <CaptHindsight> I can't say for sure but I don't see it on the BAD list to avoid
[21:12:05] <X2FreakBuilder> I would consider one of the FPGA cards, but I can't find any info on the dimensions so I can't know if it will fit in the PC case
[21:12:57] <Tom_itx> the pdfs have dimensions
[21:13:03] <CaptHindsight> <-- going to see if there is a driver for the kernel for that chip
[21:13:26] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: it's 5" long, the 6i25
[21:13:33] <CaptHindsight> low profile
[21:13:59] <CaptHindsight> http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/parallel/6i25man.pdf it's also in this doc
[21:14:52] <CaptHindsight> I'm pretty sure there is a config to make the 6i25 have the same pinout as a LPT port
[21:15:06] <CaptHindsight> or is that the default config?
[21:15:24] <Tom_itx> i think it is but not positive
[21:15:36] <Tom_itx> it's listed in the bitfile
[21:15:54] <Tom_itx> the IO as well as the pin
[21:16:12] <X2FreakBuilder> So I yanked the side off the PC case and there is plenty of space in the case as long as the Mesa cards don't run super hot. Do they run hot?
[21:16:18] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: the oxford semi LPT chip is in the latest kernel
[21:16:28] <CaptHindsight> oxi 945
[21:17:00] <CaptHindsight> have to check the 3.4 kernel git to see if it was included there
[21:17:04] <CaptHindsight> and it is
[21:18:00] <CaptHindsight> I'm assuming oxi945 since that was referenced in the windows drive
[21:18:05] <CaptHindsight> +r
[21:18:18] <os1r1s> CaptHindsight: There is a G540x2 config for the 6i25
[21:18:44] <CaptHindsight> oxi 952 and 954
[21:19:12] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: so you have a choice, that LPT card or Mesa 6i25
[21:19:54] <PetefromTn_> Man I love Pandora
[21:20:20] <X2FreakBuilder> Is the LPT card the one I sent a link to on Amazon? The Vantec
[21:22:20] <SKiTZO> I have some existing 5-phase steppers in my mill that I would like to control using LinuxCNC. They are Nema 23. What is my best option?
[21:23:39] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: yes the last vantec one
[21:24:08] <CaptHindsight> X2FreakBuilder: unless they changed what is in the box
[21:24:22] <CaptHindsight> vantec site had a driver for win
[21:24:30] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: If they changed it Amazon is great about taking returns on their dime.
[21:24:39] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[21:24:50] <CaptHindsight> ok time for dancing shoes
[21:24:54] <CaptHindsight> hasta banana
[21:25:02] <X2FreakBuilder> CaptHindsight: If I went with one of the Mesa cards would an 5i25 or a 6i25 both work with my Geck 540?
[21:26:04] <CaptHindsight> same db25 iirc, one is PCIe and the other PCI
[21:26:13] <X2FreakBuilder> Gotcha. Thanks for the info
[21:26:40] <CaptHindsight> mucho bean
[21:32:15] <t12> yay i now have a real grinder
[21:32:22] <t12> automationdirect 3ph vfd works nicely
[21:33:59] <t12> i like the braking
[21:35:48] <PetefromTn_> is it automationdirect branded?
[21:36:54] <t12> yeah
[21:37:24] <PetefromTn_> wonder if they have a 15hp model for a good price heh
[21:39:24] <t12> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_(230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control)#Horsepower_s=%2215%22&start=0
[21:40:49] <PetefromTn_> damn that is more expensive than the Hitachi WJ200 I have been using for awhile now.
[21:56:24] <SKiTZO> CaptHindsight, I cant seem to find anything when I search for vantec
[21:56:58] <SKiTZO> oh. he left
[22:22:42] <CaptHindsight> http://www.vantecusa.com/en/product/view_detail/573
[22:22:48] <gene_> Lo all
[22:25:22] <gene_> Can someone drop a pin?
[22:47:57] <bobo_> PetefrumTn_ A very Merry Happy Born day to you . At your advanced age ,may I suggest using a fire ext on the burthday cake .
[22:54:30] <bobo_> PetefrumTn_: A very Merry Happy Born day to you . At your advanced age ,may I suggest using a fire ext on the birrthday cake .
[22:59:04] <bobo_> PetefromTn_: ^^
[23:03:44] <PetefromTn_> LOL thanks Bobo
[23:38:32] <XXCoder> woot found 14 gauge blue wire
[23:38:38] <XXCoder> missing wire color I wanted
[23:59:33] <justanotheruser> Is a CNC mill that can make small watch gears like this realistic?
https://web.archive.org/web/20141012085840/http://web.ticino.com/dcorson/watch/WatchNet-5_files/WN5.htm
[23:59:56] <XXCoder> yeah
