#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-06-28

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[00:05:55] <XXCoder> heeeey
[00:05:56] <XXCoder> http://www.sears.com/grizzly-horizontal-stirling-engine-machined-kit/p-SPM1187512214?prdNo=9&blockNo=9&blockType=G9
[00:06:06] <XXCoder> not sure on size though
[00:06:18] <Jymmm> furrywolf cool
[00:06:28] <XXCoder> 9.6 inch base
[00:11:05] <XXCoder> bad reviews on amazon
[00:11:21] <XXCoder> it needs precise drilling for one step which could have done at factory
[00:12:22] <furrywolf> hrmm, I just realized the recent supreme court decision will probably also be used to toss out anti-sex-toy laws...
[00:14:24] <Jymmm> It'll squash a lot of bullshit "decency" laws too
[00:15:45] <XXCoder> two states banned marrage
[00:15:51] <XXCoder> I mean between anyone
[00:15:58] <Jymmm> lol
[00:16:02] <XXCoder> way to be mature, that 2 states
[00:16:12] <Jymmm> whixh two?
[00:16:18] <XXCoder> lemme look
[00:16:40] <XXCoder> some parts of alabama
[00:16:50] <Jymmm> WTH a 5000BTU AC is $150, yet a swamp cooler is $500+
[00:17:17] <Jymmm> XXCoder: No, you cant marry your mother or siste
[00:17:21] <Jymmm> r
[00:17:34] <XXCoder> yeah not planning to anytime soon lol
[00:17:37] <Jymmm> or daughter
[00:17:53] <XXCoder> what I has a kid??
[00:17:56] <XXCoder> wtf
[00:17:57] <Jymmm> not planning, but thinking about it huh?
[00:18:05] <XXCoder> lol
[00:18:12] <XXCoder> seriously though no kids
[00:18:24] <Jymmm> she can be 18
[00:18:36] <Jymmm> or AOC
[00:18:45] <XXCoder> aoc?
[00:18:54] <Jymmm> Age of Consent
[00:19:08] <XXCoder> lol
[00:19:32] <XXCoder> feel free to marry my sister though
[00:19:34] <Jymmm> some states its 16,
[00:19:36] <XXCoder> she'll give you hell
[00:19:45] <Jymmm> I have duct tape
[00:19:50] <furrywolf> is your sister mature, intelligent, sane, and good with a strapon? :P
[00:20:13] <XXCoder> hmm one or two tried duct tape. think theyre still buried somewhere with rolls of duct tape
[00:20:22] <XXCoder> furrywolf: not lesban so far I know
[00:20:50] <zeeshan-lab> see you guys in a bit
[00:20:51] <zeeshan-lab> ;-)
[00:21:54] <XXCoder> Jymmm: other state is michigan
[00:21:59] <XXCoder> glad I dont live at flyover states
[00:22:10] <Jymmm> ah
[00:22:20] <XXCoder> nice people there but some yeah :P
[00:22:39] <furrywolf> I have enough sex toys that I think I'd be a felon in alabama...
[00:23:01] <XXCoder> fur I bet KNOWLEDGE of sex toys makes you a felon there :P
[00:23:12] <XXCoder> or any sex at all :P
[00:23:23] <XXCoder> kidding
[00:24:02] <furrywolf> I need to buy a sex machine... really piss republicans off.
[00:24:14] <XXCoder> michigan made it illegal for anyone whos not part of church to perform marrage
[00:24:22] <XXCoder> or tried to pass?
[00:24:50] <furrywolf> lol
[00:24:51] <XXCoder> easy to get around though
[00:25:00] <XXCoder> form holy A church
[00:27:55] <XXCoder> A means assholes as ones in goverment trying to stop equality
[00:29:38] <furrywolf> tomorrow I need to change spark plugs and wires... and I need to tweak the rear suspension, but I don't think my back can do that now.
[00:32:47] <furrywolf> I also need to adjust the front camber, but that's a major project.
[00:32:55] <XXCoder> fun
[00:33:04] <XXCoder> gonna fix my van evenually
[00:33:15] <XXCoder> it runs fine but bit rough idle. fun. lol
[00:33:31] <XXCoder> need to pump some freon in.
[00:33:35] <XXCoder> is it easy to do?
[00:33:41] <furrywolf> you don't generally pump freon.
[00:34:20] <XXCoder> how refill then?
[00:34:39] <XXCoder> mine vans definitely low, it works perfectly for around 10 minutes then it warms up
[00:35:07] <furrywolf> that could be low, could also be a bad radiator or aux fan
[00:35:28] <furrywolf> do you have an electric fan that runs when the a/c is turned on?
[00:35:45] <XXCoder> good question but it definitely blows air to my face
[00:35:59] <furrywolf> and does it work better when going freeway speed and only fail when stopping?
[00:36:12] <XXCoder> nah it just workjs
[00:37:33] <furrywolf> correctly refilling at home is hard... incorrectly is easy, and sometimes works.
[00:38:10] <furrywolf> is it fast cycling? that is, does the compressor kick on, then kick back off a second or two later?
[00:38:21] <XXCoder> thats not something I can tell
[00:38:39] <furrywolf> hrmm, yeah, I guess you can't hear the click and change in rpm.
[00:38:41] <PetefromTn_> sure it is
[00:38:56] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: how?
[00:38:56] <furrywolf> you'll have to pop the hood and watch the compressor clutch
[00:39:01] <PetefromTn_> its called short cycling and continuosly clicks on and off
[00:39:13] <PetefromTn_> you can usually even hear it inside the car
[00:39:14] <furrywolf> PetefromTn_: he can't hear anything.
[00:39:20] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: click = hear, deaf = no hear
[00:39:22] <PetefromTn_> OOH sorry
[00:39:30] <XXCoder> np :0
[00:39:32] <XXCoder> :)
[00:39:33] <PetefromTn_> you can watch it with the hood open
[00:39:42] <XXCoder> yeah gonna find what it looks like
[00:39:45] <PetefromTn_> you will see the pulley spin then stop etc...
[00:40:00] <XXCoder> my van has ugly belt system
[00:40:05] <XXCoder> and hidden
[00:40:07] <PetefromTn_> what kind of van
[00:40:14] <XXCoder> nissan quest
[00:40:25] <XXCoder> 1996
[00:42:12] <XXCoder> apparently one of possible causes is bad/loose belt
[00:42:17] <XXCoder> all stuff but ac remains working
[00:42:26] <furrywolf> that'll be easy to see watching it
[00:42:43] <furrywolf> if it slows down for no reason, the belt is slipping. :)
[00:42:56] <XXCoder> ok
[00:43:42] <PetefromTn_> its probably on drivers side down near the wheel well
[00:43:46] <PetefromTn_> but not entirely sure
[00:43:54] <furrywolf> follow the hoses. :)
[00:43:57] <XXCoder> indeed
[00:45:23] <PetefromTn_> Cant even find a decent picture of the engine bay
[00:47:18] <PetefromTn_> is it the 3.0 v6?
[00:47:31] <PetefromTn_> looks very similar to the Xterra motor 3.3liter v6
[00:47:48] <XXCoder> yeah nissan quest pics is hard to find
[00:47:56] <XXCoder> ]my van is GXE edition, only one motor type
[00:48:49] <XXCoder> https://i3.ytimg.com/vi/uRFcWtQO9e0/hqdefault.jpg
[00:48:57] <XXCoder> not good picture but there it is
[00:48:58] <PetefromTn_> I love vans but honestly working on the engines is usually a big pain in the ass.
[00:49:03] <XXCoder> it is.
[00:49:14] <furrywolf> minvans are even worse
[00:49:26] <XXCoder> so far I have cleaned trottle, air intake, EGR, IAC
[00:49:32] <XXCoder> new dist cap and spark plugs
[00:49:34] <furrywolf> especially wrong-way engines
[00:49:47] <XXCoder> billion minor issues around body (not really billions)
[00:51:34] <XXCoder> from what I figure
[00:51:40] <PetefromTn_> Damn my wife made a home made cheesecake tonight and I CANNOT guarantee it will last the night LOL
[00:51:41] <XXCoder> nissan quest tend to... not fix it
[00:51:49] <XXCoder> so its near impossible to find pics
[00:51:54] <furrywolf> mmmm, cheesecake...
[00:52:02] * furrywolf eyes pete's cheesecake
[00:52:03] <XXCoder> okay I demend you to get me there now
[00:52:11] <furrywolf> I can guarantee you it won't! :P
[00:52:20] <PetefromTn_> yeah it is her WORLD FAMOUS NY STYLE cheesecake...
[00:52:25] <XXCoder> because I have... vague... threatening words
[00:52:43] <PetefromTn_> it does need to cool tho and sit in the fridge for awhile
[00:52:59] <PetefromTn_> cheesecake has got to be chilled I think...
[00:53:18] <PetefromTn_> altho we went to a local japanese sushi place recently and got some fried cheesecake
[00:53:25] <PetefromTn_> that shit was delicious
[00:53:29] <PetefromTn_> and interesting
[00:53:39] <PetefromTn_> kinda like mexican fried ice cream
[00:53:41] <furrywolf> I make lemon merengue cheesecake... first you make a shortbreak cookie crumble crust, then a layer of dense NY-style cheesecake, then lemon custard, then soft merengue just browned on top...
[00:53:54] <furrywolf> meringue
[00:54:10] <furrywolf> shortbread
[00:54:10] <PetefromTn_> but it appeared to be wrapped in wafer ice cream cone stuff and then fried
[00:54:15] * furrywolf is too tired to type
[00:54:26] <PetefromTn_> that sounds good
[00:55:27] <furrywolf> it's very, very good
[00:55:38] <furrywolf> and way too easy to stuff in your face until you're sick.
[00:56:32] <XXCoder> woooooot
[00:56:37] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRFcWtQO9e0
[00:56:44] <XXCoder> 1:10 or so it shows engine
[00:57:09] <PetefromTn_> I am going to finally order all my electronics components hopefully tomorrow after I go look at this 4x4 I may buy. If it is anywhere near as nice as the guy says I will buy it and should have the cash to buy everything for the lathe and then some...
[00:58:25] * furrywolf is worse than broke
[00:58:33] <furrywolf> can't work...
[00:58:48] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm7FYqedRLQ
[00:58:50] <XXCoder> oh brother
[00:59:16] <PetefromTn_> looks like it might actually be on the passenger side maybe from the lines
[01:00:01] <furrywolf> I could look it up, but the laptop it's on is off, and I'm ready for bed. if you haven't found it by tomorrow, I'll check.
[01:00:53] <PetefromTn_> was just reading another thread on an Xterra forum today
[01:01:16] <PetefromTn_> another SAS build only this time instead of radius arm coil sprung it was leaf sprung
[01:01:19] <XXCoder> furrywolf: thanks and have good rest
[01:01:24] <PetefromTn_> looks pretty nice actually
[01:01:27] <PetefromTn_> and dead simple
[01:01:36] <PetefromTn_> but I always wonder
[01:01:47] <XXCoder> ac isnt my prority just was wondering because dang hot weather
[01:01:58] <XXCoder> east wa has it worse, will have 108 degrees
[01:02:15] <PetefromTn_> every suzuki samurai I have owned and as I recall my jeep wrangler too was setup with a fixed mount behind the front wheel and a shackle in front
[01:02:33] <PetefromTn_> most of the leaf SAS jobs I see they do the opposite
[01:02:37] <PetefromTn_> wondering why
[01:03:37] <furrywolf> I need to do my AC... needs custom hoses.
[01:03:48] <furrywolf> I miss my other subaru. :(
[01:03:55] <XXCoder> just wish car coolers isnt freon based
[01:05:05] <furrywolf> 96 is probably not freon
[01:05:36] <furrywolf> there should be a sticker under the hood (either on the underside of the hood or on top of the radiator support or other easily-findable area) saying what coolant it uses and how much.
[01:05:52] <XXCoder> ok
[01:05:53] <zeeshan> and i'm back :)
[01:06:55] <furrywolf> R143a is most likely
[01:06:59] <furrywolf> 134a
[01:07:02] <zeeshan> wat
[01:07:06] <XXCoder> yeah saw that menioned
[01:07:06] <zeeshan> what did i miss
[01:07:34] <zeeshan> 96 nissan what
[01:07:40] <XXCoder> AC
[01:07:55] <zeeshan> model
[01:08:02] <XXCoder> quest gxe
[01:08:09] <zeeshan> 96 right
[01:08:30] <zeeshan> lol it came with front and rear ac
[01:08:31] <zeeshan> interesting
[01:08:49] <XXCoder> yeah I killed rear heating because it makes knob hot there
[01:08:55] <zeeshan> 7 oz for front ac only r134a
[01:08:58] <XXCoder> bit of electricity issues there
[01:08:59] <furrywolf> my van has front and rear ac... and takes 5lbs of r134a to fill.
[01:09:15] <zeeshan> or for front+rear is 11
[01:09:23] <zeeshan> what exactly is a rear ac?
[01:09:26] <zeeshan> its got 2 ac compressors?
[01:09:44] <zeeshan> or there is extra vents going in the back
[01:09:47] <zeeshan> along with a condenser
[01:09:48] <furrywolf> mine has one compressor, one condensor, two evaporators.
[01:09:49] <zeeshan> off the same unit
[01:09:54] <zeeshan> er evap i mean
[01:10:00] <furrywolf> one evaporator in the dash as usual, another in the rear on long hoses
[01:10:26] <zeeshan> ps. furrywolf glad to see you waking up to a decent time
[01:10:50] <furrywolf> I was just going to bed when xxcoder asked an a/c question, and am about to finish that.
[01:11:08] <furrywolf> bbl
[01:20:38] <XXCoder> zeeshan: whats up
[01:20:56] <zeeshan> food :S
[01:21:05] <XXCoder> otter pops here
[01:21:15] <XXCoder> finally pumping cold air in my room
[01:21:19] <XXCoder> well cooler anyway
[01:26:39] <zeeshan> installed an ac?
[01:27:18] <XXCoder> no
[01:27:21] <XXCoder> night air
[02:00:22] <Jymmm> XXCoder: You could try the copper pipe and ice water thing
[02:00:35] <XXCoder> yeah evenually
[02:00:39] <XXCoder> just not enough room
[02:00:54] <Jymmm> huh?
[02:01:01] <Jymmm> you zip tir it to a fan
[02:01:06] <Jymmm> tie*
[02:01:09] <XXCoder> the bucket :)
[02:01:21] <Jymmm> set the fan on the bucket?
[02:02:35] <XXCoder> fan is on window shelf above me
[02:02:47] <XXCoder> im sitting right next to wall with table
[02:02:53] <XXCoder> wall is behind me too
[02:02:55] <Jymmm> then suffer in heat!
[02:02:56] <XXCoder> so yea lol
[02:02:58] <XXCoder> lol
[02:04:23] <Jymmm> three shots on a 2shit deringer
[02:12:07] <Jymmm> 2 shot*
[02:16:28] <XXCoder> wait till you see whites of eyes
[02:25:29] <Deejay> moin
[02:26:20] <XXCoder> whites of eyes!
[02:26:26] <XXCoder> heh
[03:13:18] <Jymmm> Zombie Walk = ZALARP'ing = Zombie Apocalypse Live Action Roll Play = Dressing up as a zombie then walk around in a group pretending to be a zonbie
[03:14:08] <Jymmm> We're zalarping man...
[03:15:40] <XXCoder> heh
[03:17:27] <Jymmm> It's a line from the movie "Walking with the deceased (2015)" which is a comedy parody of "The Walking Dead" series.
[03:17:38] <Jymmm> up on netflix
[03:18:03] <Jymmm> might also be called "Walking with the Dead (2015)"
[03:19:00] <Jymmm> So far, the punk ass 12yo kid is running a strip joint, and the only living striper in the club is his mom.
[03:19:16] <Jymmm> the rest are zombie strippers
[03:19:33] <XXCoder> lol
[03:20:15] <Jymmm> XXCoder: It's CC'ed
[03:25:26] <XXCoder> cool I guess netflix is very good on captioning
[03:25:35] <XXCoder> bsically only one that does it
[03:25:56] <Jymmm> Really?
[03:25:59] <XXCoder> I think there was attempt to make streaming require cc too but dunno what happened
[03:26:31] <Jymmm> I watch a lot of asian martial art movies, all CC in englsh
[03:26:36] <XXCoder> ahh https://www.fcc.gov/guides/captioning-internet-video-programming
[03:26:54] <XXCoder> did you know 80% of caption users arent deaf?
[03:26:56] <Jymmm> ...on netflix
[03:27:00] <XXCoder> deaf is actually only 20%
[03:27:19] <Jymmm> I think you told me that once before, I still think it's bullshit =)
[03:27:54] <XXCoder> BBC did a study
[03:28:17] <Jymmm> Most of the time, movies (DVD) have the tineyest, hardest to read cc anyway
[03:28:27] <XXCoder> thats subtitle
[03:28:32] <XXCoder> which is not cc
[03:28:34] <Jymmm> yeah
[03:28:48] <XXCoder> cc is always black background with white text
[03:28:54] <XXCoder> well unless you changed tv setting
[03:29:13] <XXCoder> I was pissed when hdmi did NOT provide channel for captions
[03:29:34] <XXCoder> some devices do but it varies witg devices which mean diferent brands = not likely captioned
[03:30:03] <Jymmm> weird, I would think there would be aregs behind that
[03:30:07] <Jymmm> regs
[03:30:12] <XXCoder> apparently not
[03:30:24] <XXCoder> luckly newer devices just push caption in itself
[03:30:32] <XXCoder> so mostly fine now. when hdmi was new...
[03:30:45] <Jymmm> ah
[03:30:59] <XXCoder> it still sucks
[03:31:09] <Jymmm> I guess not many deaf audio enginers
[03:31:13] <XXCoder> roku 3 here works fine mostly
[03:33:08] <XXCoder> netflix didnt do good job apparently http://awkwardnetflixcaptions.tumblr.com/
[03:35:04] <Jymmm> eh, mistakes happen.
[03:35:23] <XXCoder> actually it always happen but there is mistakes then there is... wtfy stuff
[03:36:03] <Jymmm> I still say fuck with y'all my swapping the scripts of other movies =)
[03:36:29] <XXCoder> "But others, hearing impaired and not, are puzzled by the obscurity of some of the errors ("ALL STATIONS PREPARE FOR A HAPPY BIRTHDAY" reads one of Commander Riker's lines, inexplicably, in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.)"
[03:37:08] <XXCoder> sometimes its bad http://media.theweek.com/img/generic/0127Netflix1.jpg
[03:37:26] <XXCoder> it blocks captions with.. caption
[03:43:51] <Jymmm> XXCoder: I think they should just make all CC yoda-speak =)
[03:44:03] <XXCoder> :P
[03:44:14] * XXCoder is glad jym aren't caption worker
[03:45:31] <Jymmm> lol
[03:48:58] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=niLxhiywXqw
[04:03:30] <Jymmm> haha, they're bagging on Myle Cyrus
[04:04:34] <XXCoder> the p[uppy dinner video?
[04:04:58] <XXCoder> whats bit of wtf is that weird dining bowl
[04:05:12] <Jymmm> Cure for being a zombie, just not Myle Cyrus
[04:05:27] <XXCoder> oh
[04:05:36] <XXCoder> spoof of walking dead
[04:05:43] <XXCoder> well im walking deaf lol
[04:07:26] <Jymmm> sitting on your ass deaf ;)
[04:07:40] <XXCoder> true lol
[04:39:37] <Jymmm> Ok, I get that this is huge, but $5000 new, $2000 used? $800 to rebuild a 2HP motor? It's a squirrel cage fan, water pump, float valve and motor?! How are they WAY more expensive than an AC unit???
[04:39:39] <Jymmm> http://sacramento.craigslist.org/for/5095892786.html
[04:40:25] <Jymmm> the filter media is super cheap, so that's not where the cost is.
[04:41:08] <XXCoder> dang
[04:41:12] <XXCoder> pricy.
[04:41:18] <XXCoder> Oh I always wanted to build a duct type fan
[04:41:31] <XXCoder> convert a duct fan into floor stand fan
[04:41:36] <Jymmm> but why? ALL sized swamp coolrs are expensive
[04:41:43] <XXCoder> nice and powerful fan
[04:42:14] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-5000-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-and-Remote-Control-RWC50/100185332
[04:43:02] <XXCoder> thats basically fan with some system wet
[04:43:11] <XXCoder> ac is harder to build.
[04:43:18] <XXCoder> but then there is ecomony of scale
[04:43:28] <XXCoder> theres lot more factories making acs than that
[04:44:42] <Jymmm> but MORE than a window AC unit?
[04:45:03] <XXCoder> indeed
[04:45:16] <XXCoder> expecially if one is local and one is almost slave labor made
[04:45:41] <Jymmm> but even used markey still pricy
[04:46:02] <Jymmm> and you have to change out the motor/pump valve periodically
[04:46:26] <Jymmm> Only when it rusts out do you get a new one 5-15 years or so
[04:46:43] <Jymmm> and the pads yearly (cheap)
[04:47:25] <XXCoder> wonder how easy just make wood box using motor duck fan and buy cheap filter
[04:48:42] <Jymmm> duct fan???
[04:49:43] <XXCoder> heh probably not best apoplication I agree
[04:51:42] <Jymmm> No, I don't know what a "duct fan" is, unless you mean an inline duct fan
[04:52:36] <XXCoder> more or less, im thinking type at end of duct, blowing air in
[04:53:54] <Jymmm> This says 5000 CFM http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-5000-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-and-Remote-Control-RWC50/100185332
[04:54:15] <Jymmm> I can't even find a blower alone with that cfm
[04:54:29] <XXCoder> few of em?
[04:54:33] <XXCoder> yea probably not
[04:54:50] <Jymmm> NONE, not at grainger ot McMaster
[04:59:12] <XXCoder> lol http://www.surplussales.com/fans-blowers/fansblow-1.html
[04:59:19] <XXCoder> look at bottom right item
[04:59:21] <XXCoder> name
[05:00:01] <Jymmm> deihl?
[05:02:03] <XXCoder> Dual Squirrel Cage
[05:02:13] <Jymmm> better result off ebay actually
[05:02:30] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LAU-INDUSTRIES-38207601-A10-10ACE-BLOWER-WITH-3-4-BB-BELT-DRIVE-/160948960275
[05:02:52] <XXCoder> not bad
[05:03:08] <XXCoder> not in hurry though probably will finally try build it evenually
[05:03:21] <XXCoder> definitely will need to add something to that hole. dangerous lol
[05:03:31] <XXCoder> maybe even filter for nice and dust free air
[05:03:38] <XXCoder> its certainly powerful enouhj
[05:07:49] <XXCoder> dunno this one is little weak for room... http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/fans/blower/sure-flame-20in-construction-fan-5000-cfm
[06:44:12] <jthornton> yea <15.685714286 stone two days in a row
[06:44:28] <archivist> lies
[06:44:57] <archivist> measuring error
[06:46:21] <archivist> I bet the scales are no better than 1%, too many decimal points error
[06:47:36] <jthornton> lol
[06:48:10] <jthornton> well < 220lbs now for two whole days
[06:50:51] <archivist> I remember when I came over to the states how many were on those electric pods at the Dayton hamfest
[06:51:04] <archivist> now they are as common over here
[06:51:21] <jthornton> the 2 wheel things?
[06:52:51] <jthornton> I need to configure my LAN so BackupPC can use the computer names I think
[06:53:55] <archivist> the 4 wheel mobility scooters, belly on the handle bars almost
[06:54:26] <jthornton> oh yea the scooter things
[06:54:34] <archivist> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3606/3321829085_d7c38f2efd.jpg
[06:54:43] <archivist> poor scooter
[06:55:54] <jthornton> as in I'm too fat to walk anymore
[06:59:59] <archivist> must had fun making this one http://woodgatesview.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/chaufered-scooter.png
[07:04:00] <jthornton> lol
[07:39:43] <jthornton> I found DHCP Reservations List... and added each computer to it. Maybe that will give me static IP's
[07:43:44] <SpeedEvil> DHCP reservations - it'll never take off over static IP.
[07:46:45] <JT-Shop> explain please
[07:59:59] <CaptHindsight> do you really need static ip's?
[08:01:06] <archivist> yes if random pc uses any other random pc, needs some sense
[08:01:38] <JT-Shop> What I really need is for BackupPC to be able to find each computer on my LAN
[08:02:31] <archivist> is BackupPC some windows based stuff or better
[08:02:33] <JT-Shop> BackupPC can't find them using the computer name so I use the lan address
[08:02:37] <JT-Shop> linux
[08:03:00] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: I was not being serious, it was ana attempted joke
[08:03:39] <archivist> I used fixed IPs so I can use a name resolver/dns
[08:09:18] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: https://www.noip.com/remote-access can work for you since you get a hostname that gets updated every minute or two
[08:09:56] <CaptHindsight> your hostname stays the same even when your IP changes
[08:11:36] <CaptHindsight> http://lifehacker.com/the-best-free-alternatives-to-dyndns-1561556205
[08:11:43] <archivist> CaptHindsight, it is between internal devices
[08:11:44] <JT-Shop> this is for local LAN use only, I don't want to do anything over the internet
[08:12:57] <CaptHindsight> wow, and there is no setup in the backup software to point to specific IP's?
[08:13:01] <Jymmm> Here we go... A $500 blowjob... http://search.ebay.com/111202571441
[08:13:28] <archivist> CaptHindsight, yes there is that is exactly what he is doing
[08:13:32] <JT-Shop> wow, yes but when the router changes an ip your lost
[08:13:48] <CaptHindsight> I got one at Menards for 1/2 that price
[08:14:00] <archivist> jt just has to learn how to set fixed ip on his machines
[08:14:40] <CaptHindsight> ah built in router/switch/sat modem
[08:15:09] <JT-Shop> yes, I have 2 switches, a router, and a sat modem
[08:15:25] <archivist> you are lost if you let dhcp rule the roost, just set fixed ips on the machines
[08:16:53] <archivist> I hate manuals that dont match the markings on the device, mitsubishi vfd fail
[08:17:22] <JT-Shop> I've tried a few times on the wheezy comps but failed
[08:17:24] <Jymmm> If ALL hosts are behind the router... Setup the router's dhcp pool to 192.168.0.128-254, then you can manually set fixed ip's in the 1-127 range.
[08:18:18] <CaptHindsight> if his router actually does that
[08:18:28] <CaptHindsight> depends on who wrote the firmware in it
[08:18:44] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: It's a dink, you can set the dhcp pool to whatever you like.
[08:18:52] <JT-Shop> DHCP IP range 192.168.0.100 to 199
[08:19:06] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: why?
[08:19:13] <Jymmm> Just split it in half
[08:19:47] <archivist> that still leaves 100 ish spare!
[08:20:13] <archivist> exact split does not matter at all
[08:20:23] <Jymmm> 1-127 fixed, 128-254 dhcp, KISS
[08:21:20] <CaptHindsight> why does his router change ip's to the same MAC addresses? Is there a setting to bind dynamic IP's to Mac addresses?
[08:21:21] <JT-Shop> you would have to ask dlink why
[08:22:06] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: That's admin overhead, especially if he changes out a nic
[08:22:11] <CaptHindsight> they probably couldn't even tell you
[08:22:16] <archivist> these modern router makers make it hard to do manual setup systems
[08:23:24] <archivist> setting the PC should be easy though
[08:23:51] <CaptHindsight> well I guess the majority of users just want to plug things and and have then just work
[08:24:01] <CaptHindsight> then/them
[08:24:45] <Jymmm> page 27 of the maual lets you set the DHCP range
[08:25:16] <CaptHindsight> and hiring an actual firmware dev that understands how it all should work probably costs more $$ since software devs are all the same (from managements perspective)
[08:28:34] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, page 27 says this elect Static IP Address if all the Internet port�s IP information is provided to you by your ISP. You will need to enter in the IP address, subnet mask,
[08:28:35] <JT-Shop> gateway address, and DNS address(es) provided to you by your ISP. Each IP address entered in the fields must be in the appropriate IP form, which
[08:28:35] <JT-Shop> are four octets separated by a dot (x.x.x.x). The Router will not accept the IP address if it is not in this format
[08:30:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Where it says 192.168.0.100, make that 192.168.0.128. Where it says 192.168.0.199, make that 192.168.0.254 http://i.imgur.com/GRZW2G9.png
[08:33:29] <JT-Shop> will that trash all my current connections between computers? I'm in the middle of a backup
[08:33:37] <Jymmm> yep
[08:34:30] <JT-Shop> I better wait a bit
[08:35:29] <Jymmm> Are blowers like that "rated" like chinese batteries are? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Furnace-Blower-Wheel-HQ1054596MN-in-Housing-w-Belt-Drive-Assembly-/261878560104
[08:36:27] <Jymmm> I see swamp coolers being rated for 5000 CFM, but when I look for just blowers, I don't see anything near 5000, more like 1800-2000 if I'm lucky
[08:36:54] <archivist> that is 14 years old!
[08:37:18] <archivist> should be 14.9 dolla
[08:37:31] <Jymmm> what is?
[08:37:57] <archivist> that fan look at the barcode label
[08:38:01] <robinsz> I bought a blower recently ... but it is a bit bigger than that ;)
[08:38:29] <robinsz> 7.5kW motor
[08:38:31] <archivist> I got two free yesterday in a couple of aircons
[08:38:50] <robinsz> mine is a side-channel blower for table vacuum
[08:38:51] <Jymmm> archivist: Yeah, I can't find that PN anyway, might be for an old HVAC OEM part
[08:39:19] <robinsz> which means I have two older ones to move on
[08:39:39] <robinsz> a 2.2kw and a 5.5kw
[08:40:04] <archivist> I imagine your local aircon maintenance place would have something
[08:40:23] <CaptHindsight> how old is 14 years in blower years? ~157
[08:41:10] <CaptHindsight> it's worth $1 unless it NOS
[08:41:22] <archivist> and there is cfm with no resistance and cfm against a pressure
[08:41:26] <Jymmm> archivist: Even at 10HP is still only rated at 2800 CFM. I can't see how a 1/2HP motor in a swamp cooler can be rated for 5000 CFM - http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-5000-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-and-Remote-Control-RWC50/100185332
[08:41:48] <robinsz> depends on backpressure
[08:42:16] <robinsz> 0.001 hp can move 100,000,000 cfm with zero backpressure
[08:42:22] <archivist> the pressure you are working against makes a huge difference
[08:43:10] <Jymmm> archivist: Sure, but I still can't find any blower rated anywhere near 5000 CFM even with only 0.01 SP
[08:43:28] <robinsz> you also want large blades and low rpm for high CFM on low noise
[08:44:53] <robinsz> I have a spare duct blower for the paint booth, that does 20,000 CFM easy ... big 3 phase ...noisy as hell though, but REALLY moves air
[08:50:15] <robinsz> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fantech-Inline-Round-Mixed-Flow-Ventilation-Fan-4274-CFM-16-inch-round-Duct-/281720209862?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4197d541c6
[08:50:28] <Jymmm> WTH?! No CFM/SP listed http://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Blower-5NRD5?opr=APPD&pbi=4TM05
[08:52:11] <robinsz> they can't state the CFM without the motor
[08:52:42] <archivist> they could at a shaft rpm
[08:53:20] <archivist> they have not bothered shaping the out port for low noise
[08:54:27] <Jymmm> Does anyone else sell DAYTON besides grainger?
[08:54:58] <archivist> you are over there and on the net
[08:55:24] <Jymmm> AFAIK Dayton is a Grainger brand
[08:57:39] <JT-Shop> so there is no need to change the range but rather set static ip's outside the CHCP range?
[08:58:55] <archivist> yes
[08:59:04] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: the changes I suggested just split the subnet in half, it's easier to remember that way is all.
[09:00:10] <Jymmm> 100+ static ips, 100+ dynamic ips
[09:03:19] <Jymmm> OH WTH,, NOW they list cfm/sp http://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Blower-1XJY2?nls=1&searchQuery=1XJY2
[09:15:30] <JT-Shop> so that is what I was doing wrong before
[09:17:15] * JT-Shop just checked the tadpole ranch and the tadpoles are happy as tadpoles in water can be with no heron's in sight
[09:18:15] <CaptHindsight> I like mine odd even. odd's are dynamic and even's are static
[09:18:34] <Jymmm> When in the hell don't they have a chart like this for their blowers so you cna select a motor individually?! http://i.imgur.com/udTFwVU.png
[09:19:31] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, once I have static ips set for the LAN I don't have to remember anything right?
[09:20:30] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Well, except for the devices those static ip's are assigned to... printer, etc
[09:22:37] <JT-Shop> hows that?
[09:23:14] <Jymmm> When you install a printer on a host, you need to tell it the ip of the printer.
[09:24:45] <Jymmm> That's the whole purpose of having static ip's... so devices (printers, servers, NAS) can always be located by their ip address
[09:26:36] <Jymmm> You hard code it's assigned static ip on the device.
[09:27:22] <Jymmm> Dynamic (DHCP) address for hosts is so you just plug in a cable and don't have to configure anything manually.
[09:31:52] <Jymmm> There is also "Fixed DHCP", which tells the dhcp server to always assign a certain ip address to a specific machine (by it's MAC address), but if you move or replace the NIC (or mobo in the case of an on-board nic), then you'll have to go into the route and reassign it to the new MAC address.
[09:32:12] <Jymmm> router*
[09:36:49] <Jymmm> But if you are expecting to connect to a machine via it's "name" (printerone, or 'bp-mill'), that has nothing to do with DHCP or IP's, that's DNS and/or SMB/NetBios announcements
[10:02:23] <archivist> or put an entry in the hosts file, bp-mill 192.168.1.23
[10:02:37] <Jymmm> ...oer machine/host
[10:02:43] <Jymmm> ...per machine/host
[10:03:44] <archivist> expecting to be able to use that name/ip
[10:04:41] <archivist> in windoze it is in windows/system32/etc/
[10:04:45] <Jymmm> I really don't know of anyone that remembers the ip of everything on their lan
[10:04:51] <archivist> or something like that
[10:05:06] <furrywolf> Jymmm: I do! :P
[10:05:25] <Jymmm> furrywolf you only have one host huh?
[10:05:39] <Jymmm> 127.0.0.1 ???
[10:06:07] <archivist> I fiddle the hosts file to get the webserver from inside
[10:06:20] <furrywolf> 192.168.0.1 is the wireless hotspot, 192.168.3.1 is the unused wifi router, .3.2 is the other unused wifi router, .3.3 is the currently used wifi router, .3.100 is the router being used as a switch, .3.77 is the nslu2...
[10:06:42] <archivist> dns serves the external ip, too lazy to set up a zone
[10:06:43] <Jymmm> Well, if there are M$ boxes on the lan and or SMB (samba) setup, then WINS takes care of all that (or is suppose to anyway)
[10:06:56] <furrywolf> WINS takes care of making you despise windows.
[10:07:27] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Nah, not WINS, it's the elections that you hate =)
[10:08:02] <Jymmm> furrywolf: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc959896.aspx
[10:08:09] <archivist> who needs elections with a real name server or hosts file :)
[10:08:29] <Jymmm> lol
[10:08:55] <Jymmm> furrywolf: it's a master/slave thing, so you should enjoy it =)
[10:09:22] <Jymmm> furrywolf: very switchy
[10:09:34] <furrywolf> I usually just set up a name server or hosts files and everything works correctly.
[10:09:34] <furrywolf> then again, I usually don't touch windows.
[10:09:34] <furrywolf> which helps. a lot.
[10:10:16] <Jymmm> BONJOR (sp) is the same damn thing
[10:11:02] <furrywolf> never heard of it. (as a computer thing)
[10:11:19] <Jymmm> It's an Apple (OSX) thing
[10:11:35] <furrywolf> also, I'm not much into bondage... no master/slave relationships. peer-to-peer is much better.
[10:13:35] <Jymmm> Whats a good spray coating for a waterpan?
[10:13:56] <Jymmm> to prevent rusting on a swamp cooler
[10:14:06] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: molten zinc?
[10:14:22] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: Nah, will still rust (eventually =)
[10:15:07] <furrywolf> flexseal or other rubber products
[10:15:17] <furrywolf> or POR15 it.
[10:15:49] <Jymmm> Hmmm http://www.nucalgon.com/products/aerosols/specialty-products/pan-spray
[10:15:53] <Jymmm> never heard of that
[10:16:58] <furrywolf> "Our name on the outside means quality on the inside"... /me reads that as "we stick our name on cans of generic product and double the price selling it as a specialty product"
[10:17:12] <Jymmm> hahahaha
[10:20:28] <furrywolf> you can get flexseal at most hardware stores. POR15 is better at preventing rust, but also $$$$.
[10:30:07] <furrywolf> blargh. it seems to be raining outside, and I need to work on my car.
[10:30:51] <furrywolf> and I have stuff out that shouldn't be rained on... guess I need to go make my back hurt more by finding tarps and covering things.
[10:30:51] <furrywolf> bbl
[10:34:14] <furrywolf> back, don't care about the rest.
[10:36:14] <Jymmm> It's fucking June, we shouldn't be having rain. I had to tarp some stuff yesterday
[10:37:19] <Jymmm> Of course AFTER I tarped everything, the rain stopped 30 seconds later. But if I hadn't tarped anything, you know the rain would have lasted 2 hours.
[10:37:21] <furrywolf> I got an RV a/c with plans of sticking it on my roof, but with my back dead, I can't even move it, much less ladder-pack it... just tarped it.
[10:37:57] <Jymmm> furrywolf: RV AC on your house? how many sq ft?
[10:38:41] <furrywolf> dunno. 550?
[10:38:49] <MrHindsight> por15 msds http://www1.mscdirect.com/MSDS/MSDS00018/59505222-20111224.PDF
[10:38:51] <furrywolf> it's a big a/c, about 4ft by 2ft...
[10:39:00] <furrywolf> by 1ft thick
[10:39:36] <Jymmm> furrywolf: RV AC better than window AC ?
[10:40:25] <MrHindsight> looks like an epoxy urethane blend
[10:41:07] <furrywolf> Jymmm: my windows do not open in a style a window a/c fits.
[10:41:21] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: So paint the inside of a swamp cooler with garage floor epoxy?
[10:41:23] <furrywolf> they're all those annoying crank louver ones.
[10:41:38] <Jymmm> furrywolf: oh gawd... I now EXACTLY what you are talking about.
[10:42:19] <furrywolf> no pane of which is large enough for an a/c, and they only open to 45 degrees...
[10:42:42] <MrHindsight> Jymmm: what does por15 sell for a lb/gal/kg?
[10:43:04] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: NFC, furrywolf is the one that suggested it
[10:43:19] <MrHindsight> ah $165/gal
[10:43:34] <Jymmm> I wonder if this would work http://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-Premium-1-gal-902-Slate-Gray-1-Part-Epoxy-Concrete-and-Garage-Floor-Paint-90201/100113293
[10:43:36] <furrywolf> did I mention it was $$$$? :P
[10:43:37] <MrHindsight> ~$40/Kg not too bad
[10:44:04] <furrywolf> I haven't used flexseal, but I've heard it suggested for such applications.
[10:44:05] <furrywolf> it comes in 16oz spray-cans I think.
[10:44:15] <MrHindsight> how long do you want it to last? and is it over clean bare metal or?
[10:44:49] <MrHindsight> is it exposed to light/UV?
[10:44:55] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: 2000 years, and it's over cheaply powder coated
[10:45:03] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: Not internally no
[10:45:22] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: the inside of a swamp cooler
[10:45:49] <furrywolf> use it until it rusts out and buy another new unit. it's the american way!
[10:46:04] <Jymmm> MrHindsight: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion-Cooler-5000-CFM-2-Speed-Window-Evaporative-Cooler-for-1600-sq-ft-with-Motor-and-Remote-Control-RWC50/100185332
[10:46:08] <Jymmm> lol
[10:46:29] <MrHindsight> 2-part epoxy coating will be as good as anything or for low $ get a gallon of polyester resin for $40
[10:46:49] <furrywolf> no one likes my flexseal idea? heh
[10:47:02] <MrHindsight> if you add aluminum powder to the resin it will outlast the sheet metal
[10:47:12] <SpeedEvil> I've had good results with cold-galvanising paint
[10:47:15] <SpeedEvil> More seriously
[10:47:23] <furrywolf> anything made with polyester resin cracks
[10:47:53] <furrywolf> it's not stable with time
[10:48:02] <MrHindsight> cold-galvanizing is going to be a resin with zinc particles
[10:48:13] <furrywolf> yes
[10:48:32] <furrywolf> I have a few cans of it. it's also nice because you can weld through it, and it's conductive...
[10:48:33] <MrHindsight> what these chemical co's work out is how to do it with cheap components and make it easy to use for the consumer
[10:48:44] <MrHindsight> the rest is marketing/branding
[10:49:28] <SpeedEvil> MrHindsight: It's basically somnething like (for the cured paint) 95% zinc
[10:49:32] <SpeedEvil> by weight
[10:49:49] <SpeedEvil> - that's not quite as impressive as it sounds, as zinc is very heavy
[10:49:50] <MrHindsight> yeah and a resin to make it stick
[10:51:02] <furrywolf> yeah, it's almost all zinc... it doesn't dry hard like a paint.
[10:51:22] <Jymmm> If I'm going to pay $600 for a brand new POS swamp cooler, I'd like it to last 10(0)+ years before looking like this http://cdn.gogetfunding.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/38483/IMG_0472.JPG
[10:51:39] <furrywolf> and it doesn't burn. and it conducts electricity.
[10:52:11] <furrywolf> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Stops-Rust-11-oz-LeakSeal-Clear-Spray-265495/203165633
[10:53:06] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I wonder if that is just plastidip?
[10:53:21] <furrywolf> no, because that's a different brand. :P
[10:54:09] <MrHindsight> https://www.rustoleum.com/~/media/DigitalEncyclopedia/Documents/RustoleumUSA/TDS/English/CBG/Stops%20Rust/SRT-13_Stops_Rust_Cold_Galvanizing_Spray_TDS.ashx
[10:54:30] <MrHindsight> epoxy + zinc particles with a solvent vehicle
[10:54:54] <MrHindsight> 1 part epoxy
[10:56:50] <furrywolf> one of the products I have has so little binder that it ends up as a soft layer you can scrap through easily...
[10:56:50] <MrHindsight> http://www.rustoleum.com/MSDS/ENGLISH/265495.PDF LEAK SEAL CLEAR
[10:57:00] <furrywolf> scrape
[10:57:11] <furrywolf> like it's just zinc particles barely stuck together
[10:57:15] <MrHindsight> aliphatic urethane
[10:58:05] <Loetmichel> cold zinlc in my book is little moire than zinc power with a weak binder
[10:58:33] <Loetmichel> ir rubs off easily if not covered with paint afterwards
[10:58:36] <Loetmichel> it
[10:58:56] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: thats what the reviews said "scratches easily"
[10:59:27] <furrywolf> http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/download/file.php?id=321&t=1 does that look like an image to anyone?
[10:59:32] <MrHindsight> ahh those are just the vehicles, the actual "rubber" is not hazardous and not mentioned
[10:59:38] <furrywolf> Loetmichel: yep, that's what I have.
[10:59:53] <archivist> a duff image
[11:00:05] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Oleum-Automotive-15-oz-Truck-Bed-Coating-Black-Spray-Paint-248914/202097787
[11:00:22] <furrywolf> http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/download/file.php?id=321&mode=view and that's what you get when you click to enlarge
[11:00:23] <furrywolf> lol
[11:00:49] <MrHindsight> also depends on how often you want to recoat it
[11:00:52] <furrywolf> Jymmm: I'd suggest a rubberized product. bedliner is usually hard and brittle.
[11:01:41] <MrHindsight> fabricate a polypropylene liner for the cooler to replace any sheet metal
[11:02:05] <furrywolf> or... be a good american, use it until it fails, then buy a new one. :P
[11:02:15] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I figur ethe pan of a swamp cooler is going to be in water for years at a time. not much flex going ng to happen
[11:02:31] <archivist> the zinc serves as a sacrificial anode so that even if the coating is scratched, the exposed steel will still be protected by the remaining zinc.
[11:02:57] <Loetmichel> archivist: iirc zinc can protect up to 1,2mm open scratch
[11:03:00] <Loetmichel> on sheet steel
[11:03:01] <Jymmm> where can I get a sacraficial zinc annode?
[11:03:08] <furrywolf> plumbing store
[11:03:25] <furrywolf> or marine store. (multiply price by 10)
[11:04:05] <Jymmm> sea plane store = $^100
[11:04:53] <archivist> the aircons I got yesterday seem to be painted over galvanised steel, and seem to have been made circa 1998, not rusty yet
[11:04:59] <furrywolf> ok, wtf? even their PDFs look like that! http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/download/file.php?id=326
[11:06:22] <Jymmm> $6 http://www.westmarine.com/buy/martyr--zinc-rudder-trim-anodes-with-hex-head-machine-screw--POOO252561
[11:06:55] <Rab> Haha @ Martyr brand sacrificial anodes.
[11:07:15] <furrywolf> give it all a heavy coat of the clear rubber stuff I pasted, or similar product. anodes only help after you have bare metal exposed, and need to be electrically connected...
[11:08:20] <Jymmm> LeakSeal stuff?
[11:08:33] <furrywolf> yes
[11:09:02] <furrywolf> also, lol @ martyr brand sacraficial anodes.
[11:09:28] <Jymmm> And that annode... bolt it to the metal frame of thconductively, within the water?
[11:09:52] <furrywolf> yes
[11:10:02] <furrywolf> and the bolting process will cause the very issue you want to prevent.
[11:10:24] <Jymmm> I have silicone for that
[11:11:36] <CaptHindsight> coat in 20 year silicone
[11:12:53] <Jymmm> I think LeadkSeal or http://www.grainger.com/product/SPRAYON-RTV-Silicone-Sealant-6KDT3 is pretty much that.... Spray on RTV
[11:13:01] <Jymmm> leakSeal*
[11:13:18] <Jymmm> wait, rated for 450F, maybe not
[11:13:19] <furrywolf> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/KIIAAOSwstxVALiG/$_57.JPG "Condition: New" uh-huh.
[11:13:35] <furrywolf> no, leakseal is not going to be silicone.
[11:13:45] <Jymmm> furrywolf: PVC?
[11:13:51] <Jymmm> like plastidip?
[11:13:53] <archivist> new old rusty stock
[11:14:06] <Jymmm> furrywolf: the PIC is new, not the product =)
[11:14:08] <furrywolf> I think someone already said it was urethane-based
[11:14:12] <CaptHindsight> METHYL TRIACETOXYSILANE, AMORPHOUS SILICA
[11:14:26] <CaptHindsight> and ETHYL TRIACETOXYSILANE
[11:14:48] <furrywolf> anyone have a 120/240 autotransformer they want to sell? (or a 120 isolation transformer)
[11:15:02] <CaptHindsight> S00010-RTV/ISD ^^
[11:15:13] <Jymmm> furrywolf: saw three at the fleamarket yeaterday, about 500VA
[11:15:30] <archivist> I have one, postage kills the deal
[11:15:42] <furrywolf> Jymmm: I need another "0".
[11:16:09] <Jymmm> the RV AC ?
[11:16:30] <furrywolf> I want to run 240V tools off my 120V system.
[11:16:43] <furrywolf> I can provide 120V @ 60A...
[11:17:07] <CaptHindsight> how many ohms?
[11:17:57] <furrywolf> a 1.5kva isolation transformer should make a 3.0kva autotransformer, right?
[11:18:31] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Sure, but only ONCE, and for a very short durage of time =)
[11:18:36] <archivist> same rating not double
[11:18:37] <Jymmm> duration*
[11:18:56] <furrywolf> archivist: but when wired as an autotransformer, only half the load actually runs through the transformer.
[11:19:00] <Jymmm> furrywolf: VA/Watts remain constant
[11:19:22] <Jymmm> if it's rated for 1000W it doens't matter whch dirction
[11:19:43] <archivist> furrywolf, there is no such thing as a free lunch
[11:19:51] <Jymmm> 220@1KW = 120@1KW
[11:19:52] <furrywolf> Jymmm: but when used as an autotransformer, if I connect 2000W to it, only 1000W runs through the transformer, the other 1000W is supplied directly from the input.
[11:20:05] <archivist> furrywolf, wrong
[11:20:11] <Jymmm> furrywolf: it's STILL the same KVA
[11:20:37] <furrywolf> archivist: wrong? how so?
[11:20:47] <Jymmm> furrywolf: 220@1KW != 110@2KW
[11:21:05] <archivist> because as an auto you are placing the input half way along the winding
[11:22:30] <Jymmm> 5000VA @ a PF of 1.1 ~= 4500W
[11:23:15] <furrywolf> let's say you have an isolated transformer rated for, say, 8A. if you put 120V into it, you get 120V out of it, at a maximum of about 1kW, running 8A through it. now if you connect one end of that secondary to one end of the input, such that they add for 240V, and you connect an 8A @ 240V load to it, you're getting 2kW... but still only running 8A through the transformer.
[11:23:36] <Jymmm> furrywolf: transformers are rated in VA or Watts, not amps
[11:23:56] <furrywolf> funny, many of the autotransformers sold are rated in amps. :P
[11:24:19] <Jymmm> furrywolf: But to answer you question... http://www.grainger.com/product/SQUARE-D-Transformer-2CN49
[11:26:51] <furrywolf> I didn't ask if grainger had one for sale.
[11:29:03] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Yes you did, you just didn't know it =) http://www.ebay.com/itm/HT-Hanil-Tech-5KVA-220V-Up-Transformer-Portable-Model-HT-5000U-/111689700856 That being a chinese 5KVA =)
[11:29:37] <Jymmm> $40
[11:29:58] <Jymmm> 100% positive feedback
[11:30:33] <furrywolf> it's a pretty color, but I doubt that's a continuous rating...
[11:30:53] <Jymmm> Somehow I don't think that's an inductive load rating
[11:31:17] <Jymmm> and prbably PEAK
[11:31:59] <Jymmm> and when you say 220 tools, I dn't think thats gonna be a soldering iron =)
[11:32:06] <furrywolf> somehow I don't think the power cord could handle that for more than a second... :P
[11:32:30] <Jymmm> It's for those karioky machines =)
[11:32:45] * furrywolf still concludes that the rating schemes for isolation transformers and autotransformers are such that one is double the other
[11:33:05] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Try it =)
[11:33:42] <furrywolf> when you use the isolation transformer as an autotransformer to step up the voltage, only half the output power actually runs through the transformer.
[11:33:47] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Hope you like Rice Krispy cereal
[11:34:10] <furrywolf> rather than being stupid, maybe you should show how I'm wrong?
[11:45:08] <archivist> do you realise when connected like that the input current is ONLY to the centre
[11:45:48] <archivist> so the input coil takes the full 16A to get 8A out
[11:45:55] <furrywolf> the input current goes to the center, and then is split, half going each way, if you want to think of it like that...
[11:46:09] <archivist> no that is not how it works
[11:46:19] <Jymmm> http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/AC/02145.png
[11:47:40] <furrywolf> ignore autotransformer and think about an isolation transformer... the isolation transformer will create an isolated 120V supply. I can pull 1kW from it. now I put that isolated supply in series with another 120V supply, and I can draw 2kW, as the current is the same, but with the two supplies in series, I have 240V instead of 120V.
[11:48:21] <archivist> when wired like that it becomes an auto
[11:48:25] <furrywolf> correct.
[11:48:31] <furrywolf> and I can still pull 2kW. :)
[11:48:35] <archivist> no
[11:48:54] <furrywolf> why? I'm still pulling the exact same current through each winding.
[11:49:01] <archivist> not at all
[11:49:27] <archivist> your input current is twice the output current in an auto
[11:49:34] <furrywolf> correct. my input current is twice.
[11:49:49] <Jymmm> and HALF the voltage
[11:49:50] <furrywolf> but only half of it is running through the transformer
[11:50:05] <archivist> wrong
[11:50:44] <archivist> you pull from both in SERIES
[11:50:56] <furrywolf> right. series is increasing the voltage, not the current.
[11:51:22] <furrywolf> half the voltage is being supplied from the input, half from the transformer.
[11:51:31] <archivist> you are just dreaming wrongly
[11:51:39] <furrywolf> I think I'm thinking correctly. :P
[11:52:53] <furrywolf> again, ignore the autotransformer bit, and just think of an isolation transformer... I can put it in series with any voltage I want, and it'll add (or subtract if wired wrong!) its voltage to whatever the other supply is. I could connect it to a 10kV supply and have a 10120V supply.
[11:53:18] <furrywolf> I can still draw the same 8A through it without it melting.
[11:53:56] <archivist> you need to supply 16A of magnetising at 110 to get 8 at 240
[11:54:08] <furrywolf> that the secondary is connected back to its own primary doesn't change this at all.
[11:54:46] <furrywolf> yes, for an isolated 120-240 transformer, I do. but for a 120-120 transformer wired as an autotransformer, I do not.
[11:54:54] <Jymmm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt8DoNerIPY
[11:55:02] <Jymmm> "Half"
[11:55:57] <furrywolf> when the secondary is put in series with the input, the voltage is added, just like any two supplies put in series.
[11:56:34] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Ok, consider a 1:1 ratio transformer the pri and sec are the exact same
[11:56:44] <furrywolf> yes, that's exactly what I'm considering.
[11:57:05] <Jymmm> No, you are doubling/halfing the voltage on one side
[11:57:29] <furrywolf> no, I'm talking about a 1:1 isolation transformer.
[11:57:41] <furrywolf> note I even mentioned a 120-120 transformer at least once.
[11:57:53] <Jymmm> no you are talking a step up (110 to 220)
[11:58:13] <Jymmm> that aint 1:1 no matter how many wet dreams you have about it =)
[11:58:23] <furrywolf> no, I'm talking about A 1:1 ISOLATION TRANSFORMER.
[11:58:24] <furrywolf> argh
[11:59:02] <Jymmm> You said 110@60A to power your 220V tools
[11:59:06] <furrywolf> yes
[11:59:20] <furrywolf> BY USING A 1:1 ISOLATION TRANSFORMER. like I've said several times.
[11:59:31] <Jymmm> 110 using a 1:1 is still 110
[12:00:09] <furrywolf> correct. now put that 110V output IN SERIES with another 110V supply.
[12:00:16] <furrywolf> presto! you have 220V!
[12:00:22] <Jymmm> anf HALF the current
[12:00:33] <furrywolf> yes
[12:01:12] <furrywolf> or, I can draw the SAME current, and have DOUBLE the input current.
[12:01:20] <furrywolf> but the transformer still sees the SAME current, and does not melt.
[12:01:48] <Jymmm> Ok, you're right.
[12:02:23] <furrywolf> a 1kW isolation transformer can be used to supply 2kW when wired as an autotransformer.
[12:02:49] <furrywolf> since half the power is being provided from the transformer, and the other half directly from the input
[12:04:19] <Jymmm> Do you REALLY think any type of transformer rating is going to be the "perfect" rating, or the MAXIMUM rating (no matter how it's being used)?
[12:05:03] <furrywolf> depends on whether it says USA or CHINA on the sticker. :P
[12:07:00] <Jymmm> http://www.acmetransformer.com/en/t2530144s
[12:08:22] <furrywolf> I want an autotransformer, or a 1:1 isolation transformer of half the size. absolutely no reason to use a part twice as heavy, twice as expensive, and twice as lossy for my application.
[12:10:22] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151727064293 is the best I've found so far
[12:10:42] <furrywolf> that's a nice one with no exposed wiring, too
[12:11:14] <furrywolf> sadly, I used to have that transformer, and sold it about 15 years ago, not thinking I'd ever have a use for it... I think I got $50. :(
[12:11:32] <furrywolf> moral of the story: NEVER GET RID OF ANYTHING.
[12:12:01] <Tom_itx> apply to old gf too?
[12:12:14] <furrywolf> yes.
[12:12:32] * furrywolf puts on winehouse's Back to Black
[12:13:39] <zeeshan> hoarder!
[12:14:30] * Tom_itx misread that
[12:14:51] <furrywolf> ?
[12:17:43] <CaptHindsight> nah it just creates clutter, then 2-4 weeks after selling/recycling/scraping/blowning-up you need it
[12:18:50] <Jymmm> https://www.manualshelf.com/manual/henry/he287sf871/msds-english.html
[12:19:10] <CaptHindsight> there is some inverse rule to whatever you get rid of you will need soon and whatever you hold onto for even years you never end up using
[12:19:29] <furrywolf> bbl, off to my storage unit to unload stuff from the back of my car. it's filled to the roof with car parts.
[12:19:58] * furrywolf would consider that a perverse rule as well as an inverse rule
[12:20:27] <CaptHindsight> acrylic polymer blend , meaning it cures when left open
[12:21:24] <CaptHindsight> the rest is color and calcium carbonate+silica
[12:21:53] <CaptHindsight> chlorothalonil is a fungicide
[12:21:58] <zeeshan> when a person wants 3 different samples of a small pin made out of 316 with the potential of making 600 of each one of these pins in the future
[12:22:03] <zeeshan> how do you charge them? :P
[12:22:36] <CaptHindsight> I'd charge for the work under contract, not potential work
[12:22:54] <furrywolf> you charge them full shop price, with a note that you'll credit that price to their final order when they decide to have you make them
[12:22:56] <zeeshan> and then discount them when the future work comes?
[12:23:09] <zeeshan> cause who knows if the future work comes or not.
[12:23:22] <furrywolf> unless it's a regular customer you know will follow through with the rest of the order
[12:23:43] <CaptHindsight> yeah, it's an easy way to get people to lower their price without making any commitment
[12:23:44] <zeeshan> well he's come to me back a bunch of times, but not with an order like this.
[12:23:52] <CaptHindsight> just the suggestion of a commitment
[12:24:02] <CaptHindsight> I get it all the time
[12:24:26] <CaptHindsight> they want to be your buddy, future partner, big order around the corner etc etc
[12:24:44] <CaptHindsight> so make it part of the deal
[12:25:14] <furrywolf> bbl
[12:25:19] <CaptHindsight> the big order is contingent on you meeting their specs, not them deciding later if they will order more
[12:26:03] <zeeshan> basically told him this
[12:26:08] <zeeshan> ill charge him normal rate for these 3 parts
[12:26:19] <CaptHindsight> it's funny how often the big order story changes when you ask them to put it in writing
[12:26:33] <zeeshan> but if he orders 200 or more in the future, I will discount the rate and also deduct this charge from it.
[12:26:49] <zeeshan> i'm definitely not doing it for free.
[12:26:56] <zeeshan> in anticipation for future orders..
[12:27:02] <CaptHindsight> yeah, nice try
[12:28:57] <CaptHindsight> I wish I could get free labor and materials as well
[12:30:09] <zeeshan> you know what's worse?
[12:30:16] <zeeshan> you make these 3 parts for him for free
[12:30:22] <zeeshan> and then the final order comes and he doesnt like your prices.
[12:30:27] <CaptHindsight> heh
[12:30:40] <zeeshan> so yea, i'm not wasting my time doing this job at all if he can't agree to it
[12:30:50] <CaptHindsight> I was going to say cancer but yeah that's also not nice
[12:32:19] <CaptHindsight> yeah, otherwise how much skin in the game does he have?
[12:32:46] <zeeshan> yea
[12:32:54] <zeeshan> i just really do want this order because it is $$$$$$$$$44
[12:33:16] <CaptHindsight> dream vs reality
[12:34:26] <CaptHindsight> pretty simple agreement I'd say
[12:34:40] <archivist> when you get a large order, cost it properly for production at that stage you generally make it so much cheaper, real profit
[12:43:30] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, your program & tooling time will be eaten up in the samples
[12:43:57] <Tom_itx> you will still have setup and run time for additional parts
[12:45:02] <Tom_itx> they should be aware of that
[12:47:49] <archivist> making extra profit by good buying after costing for small qty
[12:51:29] <robinsz> is there some way to be able to read some files from 2.7 online? ie configs/sim/axis/moveoff
[12:51:47] <cradek> git.linuxcnc.org
[12:52:20] <cradek> at the bottom click the "tree" by 2.7
[12:52:49] <robinsz> errm
[12:52:56] <robinsz> at the bottom of ?
[12:53:40] <JT-Shop> heads
[12:54:00] <robinsz> oh, to the right of "linuxcnc"
[12:54:04] <JT-Shop> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=tree;h=refs/heads/2.7;hb=refs/heads/2.7
[12:55:10] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you put auto ethx in your config?
[12:55:19] <Tom_itx> that will set it up on boot
[12:55:54] <Tom_itx> i couldn't remember
[12:56:12] <JT-Shop> I was using an address that is on the DH somthing or other not outside the range
[12:56:14] <cradek> first click linuxcnc.git
[12:56:19] <cradek> then "tree" by 2.7
[12:56:25] <JT-Shop> I'll try again in a bit
[12:56:50] <Tom_itx> if you run ifconfig -a it will list ALL the network interfaces
[12:59:43] <JT-Shop> this computer http://pastebin.com/RNJQxH1L
[13:11:37] <robinsz> I wish I understood what the hell this moveoff thing was doing ...
[13:16:55] <jthornton> ask dgarr
[13:17:28] <robinsz> it seems like it might partially do what I want
[13:18:01] <robinsz> but the descriptions seem to assume some level of knowledge I dont have
[13:32:54] <jthornton> it's hard to know what level of knowledge everyone in the world has...
[13:33:36] * jthornton assumes I don't have my ssh key setup anymore on the plasma
[13:33:45] <robinsz> I think I need to combine the z_retract.ini with the no_gui.ini
[13:34:14] <jthornton> what are you trying to do?
[13:34:21] <robinsz> pause a router
[13:34:34] <jdh> why?
[13:34:45] <robinsz> why pause?
[13:34:47] <jthornton> pause movement?
[13:34:51] <robinsz> yes
[13:35:02] <robinsz> for example if a part on the sheet has kicked up
[13:35:28] <robinsz> pause, sort it out, continue
[13:36:02] <jthornton> and the pause key doesn't pause the machine movement?
[13:36:14] <robinsz> yes, but set the building on fire
[13:36:38] <robinsz> its a router, so pause motion, retract z, stop spindle
[13:36:40] <jthornton> that's kinda hard to visualize
[13:36:53] <jthornton> ah so more than just pause
[13:37:10] <robinsz> yeah, I posted a thing ...
[13:37:14] <jthornton> should be pause, stop spindle, jog away?
[13:37:47] <robinsz> not jog, but auto retract Z
[13:37:49] <robinsz> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/10-advanced-configuration/29361-pause-function-for-use-with-a-router
[13:38:13] <robinsz> if I could jog the axes after retract, that would be a bonus
[13:38:15] <jthornton> what if auto retract wrecks the part
[13:38:21] <robinsz> how?
[13:38:34] <jthornton> dunno, part jammed in the cutter
[13:38:58] <robinsz> well, it might be possible with a slot cutter
[13:39:03] <robinsz> but I dont own any
[13:39:13] <robinsz> and just pausing will cause a fire
[13:39:35] <robinsz> 12mm compression cutter in 18mm ply at 18,000 rpm ...
[13:39:56] <jthornton> seems more logical to pause and stop spindle then sort out the problem
[13:40:31] <robinsz> well, thats not how this router worked prior to the control blowing up
[13:40:39] <robinsz> its nto how our multicam works
[13:41:01] <jthornton> multicam would pause the machine?
[13:41:08] <robinsz> and retract
[13:41:35] <robinsz> and then stop spindle
[13:41:51] <jthornton> multicam must be a control program not a cam program then
[13:42:15] <robinsz> its a brand of router
[13:42:37] <robinsz> American, quite nice really
[13:44:57] <robinsz> it looks like the z_retract ini is almost there, pity it is a fixed retract amount though
[13:45:47] <robinsz> I guess that means it will come up to a diffrent point depending on what tool was in, and at what depth it was during the cut ..
[13:46:10] <robinsz> sigh .. and i guess it will explode if I try and pause it while Z is already retracted?
[13:46:49] <jthornton> dunno, might try a sim first
[13:48:54] <robinsz> so if I understand this HAL stuff correctly ... the line: HALCMD = sets external_offset_2 0.1234
[13:49:11] <robinsz> set the retract distancce to 0.1234 mm right?
[13:49:24] <robinsz> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=configs/sim/axis/moveoff/6_zretract.ini;h=ed8d7a9ddfd4dbf43b7d15eaf62d3a9afa1212a4;hb=refs/heads/2.7
[13:49:31] <jthornton> seems that mv.dgb-state changes from 0 to 1 when you pause
[13:50:46] <robinsz> so could I calculate that figure on the fly in HAL and set it to "current axis position - axis fully retracted position" or somehting?
[13:50:59] <robinsz> to get a full retract out of it?
[13:51:04] <jthornton> also mv.move-enable is a toggle
[13:51:30] <robinsz> what does that mean?
[13:52:01] <zeeshan> has anyone used a turn groove tool?
[13:52:20] <jthornton> watching the moveoff pins in a watch window while pausing and enabling I can see their state change and perhaps select one that would work with the and component to control the spindle
[13:52:49] <jthornton> ie, when paused stop the spindle
[13:55:54] <robinsz> is there a way to visualise the hal components?
[13:56:39] <zeeshan> like through a LED?
[13:56:42] <JT-Shop> visualize in what way
[13:56:44] <robinsz> or do you just read the .HAL file and try and figure it out
[13:56:58] <robinsz> somethign that will draw a diagram of the stuff
[13:57:26] <JT-Shop> there is but it seems much too complicated for something as simple as HAL
[13:57:55] <robinsz> so how would you add the AND gate to the spindle?
[13:57:56] <JT-Shop> however I've seen a spreadsheet using connecting lines that was 4' x 10' of a HAL configuration
[13:59:17] <JT-Shop> first how and works http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/hal/basic_hal.html#_and2
[13:59:53] <JT-Shop> so you connect spindle on to in0 and something else to in1 and when both are on the spindle will run
[13:59:59] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, anyone used Kreg "pocket holle" jig maybe? I tried using it today and it didn't work as I expected:/
[13:59:59] <JT-Shop> turn one off and the spindle stops
[14:00:23] <JT-Shop> yea, works for me... what are you drilling into?
[14:01:18] <LeelooMinai> JT-Shop: I wanted to make pocket holes in plain 2x4 pine and it felt like it was not cutting into the wood, but sliding... The bit is new and sharp, and I had to use scarey pressure to progress.
[14:01:54] <JT-Shop> turning the right way with the bit?
[14:02:22] <LeelooMinai> Isn't it like any other drill bit?
[14:05:01] <robinsz> so somwhere in my inifile will be a line that links the spindle to some output or other
[14:05:26] <robinsz> I need to delete that line, add a line linkiing to to the output of an AND gate
[14:05:27] <robinsz> etc etc
[14:06:36] <robinsz> so how do I get the value of a joint position in HAL?
[14:10:54] <robinsz> if I could invert the joint position and feed that value into the external_offset_2 pin, that shoudl do it, right?
[14:15:20] <LeelooMinai> JT-Shop: I went to check and you were right - I was drilling on reverse, like an idiot:)
[14:17:17] <LeelooMinai> "Like an idiot. Touched for the very first time" ♪ ♫
[14:20:41] <Jymmm> Getting drilled backwards... is the like have your cherry UNpopped?
[14:21:15] <LeelooMinai> I guess it was to obvious to occur to me, so I started to make some strange theories:)
[14:21:40] <Jymmm> KISS
[14:23:56] <Jymmm> Alright, how about roofing compounds for swamp cooler coatings?
[14:24:38] <Jymmm> This might make the air smell like pertrolium http://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-208R-0-90-Gal-Rubber-Wet-Patch-Roof-Cement-HE208R142/100041225
[14:25:36] <Jymmm> And I have no clue what this actually is... http://www.homedepot.com/p/Henry-4-75-Gal-287-Solar-Flex-White-Roof-Coating-HE287SF871/100051140
[14:26:43] <Jymmm> Oh, laytex. ok forget that one.
[14:26:45] <humble_sea_bass> uit
[14:27:02] <humble_sea_bass> xit
[14:32:10] <LeelooMinai> White roofs probably look weird.
[14:32:32] <Jymmm> LeelooMinai: this is for coating the inside of a swamp cooler
[14:32:35] <LeelooMinai> But I guess it should reflect sun better.
[14:32:39] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop what did we miss on the setup?
[14:32:50] <Tom_itx> eth1 to eth0?
[14:33:25] <LeelooMinai> Jymmm: I need to google "swamp cooler" :)
[14:34:46] <LeelooMinai> My forst though was "why would anyone need to cool a swamp"
[14:34:49] <LeelooMinai> first*
[14:36:49] <Jymmm> =)
[14:41:12] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop's interweb is on a toggle switch
[14:41:46] <Jymmm> I thought his rocking chair just rolled over the network cable
[14:41:56] <Tom_itx> or that
[14:42:23] <JT-Shop> dunno what is the issue
[14:42:56] <Jymmm> Why was he making changes to his network in the first place?
[14:43:07] <Tom_itx> so he can do backups
[14:43:22] <Tom_itx> without the dynamic ip changing
[14:43:28] <Jymmm> oh
[14:44:00] <Jymmm> did someone suggest to him to just use an ip outside the dhcp pool instead?
[14:44:22] <Jymmm> ...for the backup machine
[14:44:48] <Tom_itx> it can't see the others when they change
[14:45:19] <Jymmm> so he's ging to make evey host static now?
[14:46:05] <JT-Shop> backuppc can't find the other computers if the IP address changes
[14:47:12] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: do the machines you are backing up have some client software on them?
[14:53:25] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: do the machines you are backing up have some client software on them?
[14:53:42] <JT-Shop> no, just a ssh key
[14:57:26] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, what did we miss on the initial static ip? the eth1 to eth0?
[15:00:05] <JT-Shop> yea, also I think it didn't like being in the DHCP IP address range... disconnect city
[15:00:27] <Tom_itx> funny, i put min at the top of it and it works fine
[15:00:33] <Tom_itx> mine*
[15:00:51] <JT-Shop> you have a DIR 632?
[15:01:04] <Tom_itx> a who?
[15:01:05] <Tom_itx> no
[15:01:07] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:01:32] <JT-Shop> mine may be different
[15:01:48] <JT-Shop> D-Link 8 port router
[15:02:36] <Tom_itx> i've got a netgear right now
[15:06:40] <JT-Shop> changing .120 to .90 seems to be liked by the router
[15:07:06] <JT-Shop> it doesn't show up in the router list any more... now to see if I can back this one up
[15:07:10] <Tom_itx> well, glad you got it figured out anyhoo
[15:07:23] <JT-Shop> not done till the fat lady sings
[15:07:39] <Tom_itx> step1
[15:07:42] <Tom_itx> is working
[15:15:07] <zeeshan> heres a challenge for you guys
[15:15:10] <zeeshan> quote this :)
[15:15:50] <Tom_itx> you just want us to do your homework!
[15:16:21] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/X6MGnC3.png
[15:16:25] <zeeshan> no ive already done the quote
[15:16:28] <zeeshan> quote for 600 of these
[15:16:30] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: does it start with "you're driving a bus"?
[15:16:41] <zeeshan> overall dimensions 1" round x 1.375" long
[15:16:44] <zeeshan> 316L
[15:16:52] <zeeshan> to give a sense of material and scale
[15:17:04] <Jymmm> or "A train leaving Boston..."
[15:17:09] <zeeshan> how much would you need to make per part? :)
[15:17:11] <Tom_itx> china would do them for $.50 ea
[15:17:15] <Tom_itx> with free shipping
[15:17:28] <Jymmm> or "If Johnny has 3 apples.."
[15:17:36] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: made in usa / canada
[15:17:37] <zeeshan> :)
[15:17:37] <CaptHindsight> yeah 50 cents with 0.1" tolerance + -
[15:17:49] <zeeshan> tolerance is 0.003 +/- on this
[15:17:49] <XXCoder> .1 tol lol
[15:17:55] <Tom_itx> bar machine could form cut those all but the end
[15:18:35] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: with .1 tol oval version of that part would pass :P
[15:18:44] <Tom_itx> zeeshan what was the quote?
[15:18:48] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: on a manual lathe?
[15:19:01] <zeeshan> i quoted 8.75 per part labour/machining/tool cost
[15:19:03] <Jymmm> If Johnny has 3 apples, and Mary is in Dallas, when did Alice create her third invention?
[15:19:09] <zeeshan> 2$ material cost
[15:19:15] <zeeshan> setup and cam free
[15:19:30] <XXCoder> Jymmm: missing information :P
[15:19:48] <Jymmm> XXCoder: WRONG ANSWER, you lose! Thanks for playing!
[15:19:54] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: sounds like a typical question on a standardized test
[15:19:57] <zeeshan> what do you think tom? :)
[15:20:02] <zeeshan> am i far off
[15:20:12] <zeeshan> too cheap too expensive
[15:20:12] <XXCoder> .0003 is very tight
[15:20:14] <CaptHindsight> it's not supposed to be accurate or logical, just how well you have been trained
[15:20:35] <Tom_itx> zeeshan cnc?
[15:20:39] <zeeshan> yes
[15:20:45] <Tom_itx> i was thinking $10 ea plus setup time
[15:21:13] <Tom_itx> but i like nice round numbers
[15:21:17] <Jymmm> $142 for the first part, $12 for each additional.
[15:21:36] <zeeshan> apparently the end customer (not the guy im dealing with)
[15:21:38] <zeeshan> pays 7.50 per part
[15:21:41] <zeeshan> B.S.
[15:21:47] <zeeshan> its 316L
[15:21:56] <CaptHindsight> if you make 10k of em
[15:21:59] <zeeshan> inncluding material
[15:22:03] <zeeshan> no, for 600
[15:22:05] <Tom_itx> setup / programming probably 2hrs or so
[15:22:10] <CaptHindsight> then it's $4ea
[15:22:14] <Jymmm> zeeshan: I think you are just getting used for your quote
[15:22:56] <Tom_itx> are they supplying material?
[15:23:09] <zeeshan> no, that 7.50 per part includes material apparently
[15:23:16] <Tom_itx> you're getting screwed
[15:23:17] <zeeshan> which i know is around 1.5 to 2 bux per part
[15:23:22] <zeeshan> exactly
[15:23:28] <CaptHindsight> unless i was bored/starving etc I'd go $10+
[15:23:29] <zeeshan> i told him i'd need to be at 10.75 per part
[15:23:33] <zeeshan> otherwise i can't do it
[15:23:35] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[15:23:51] <CaptHindsight> he can find a monkey to make them for $7.5
[15:23:55] <zeeshan> i dont like production work anyway :P
[15:24:06] <XXCoder> heh if I ever start cnc business I would need someone to do negrotation and quotes for me :P
[15:24:11] <XXCoder> I cant do that stuff
[15:24:14] <zeeshan> 10 of something is production enough for me!
[15:24:14] <CaptHindsight> and evidence to the contrary you're no monkey
[15:24:23] <zeeshan> haha CaptHindsight
[15:24:24] <zeeshan> thank you
[15:24:26] <Jymmm> I still say $140 for the first part (includes setup and maybe your cost for some material), then whatever for the rest
[15:24:28] <XXCoder> chrimpzee maybe since no tail
[15:25:10] <CaptHindsight> $3000 at the start, cash on deliver
[15:25:18] <CaptHindsight> +y
[15:25:25] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Hold on there... we don't know that, zeeshan could be part chimp
[15:25:31] <XXCoder> $6000 first part, free next 599 parts
[15:25:42] <XXCoder> (kidding)
[15:25:44] <Jymmm> CBD
[15:25:48] <zeeshan> hahaha
[15:26:47] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3oqRkVzOKg
[15:26:48] <zeeshan> very cool
[15:27:11] <Jymmm> $450 for the first 5 parts, $10.50 each additional
[15:27:53] <zeeshan> the thing is you guys are thinking usd $
[15:28:03] <Jymmm> zeeshan: bananas?
[15:28:14] <zeeshan> 10 bux usd is about 13 bux cad right now
[15:28:15] <XXCoder> $10 first part, $10+(0.10 * number of parts so far)
[15:28:25] <zeeshan> XXCoder: Y= mx + B !
[15:28:31] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: $7.50 Canadian?
[15:28:37] <zeeshan> yes CaptHindsight
[15:28:47] <zeeshan> so basically 6 bux usd
[15:28:54] <zeeshan> no ones gonna do that for that cheap :P
[15:29:13] <XXCoder> 7.50 yen ;)
[15:29:23] <CaptHindsight> unless you are bored/broke/inebriated etc how is it worth it?
[15:29:39] <zeeshan> i look at it is like this
[15:29:51] <zeeshan> i could do 10 custom jobs
[15:30:03] <zeeshan> and make similar $
[15:30:04] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Ask him to show you an invoice with that, and you'll see what you can do to match it, Otherwise, it's $150/1st + $11/each
[15:30:04] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: how long will each piece take on your machine?
[15:30:20] <zeeshan> about 12 min per part if i take it easy
[15:30:22] <zeeshan> 8 min abuse
[15:30:39] <zeeshan> 2 min open chuck and reset part
[15:30:50] <CaptHindsight> thats like $50 an hour
[15:30:56] <zeeshan> Jymmm: i told him to get quotes from other places
[15:31:08] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: yes, i am cheap :)
[15:31:23] <CaptHindsight> not even $50
[15:31:25] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Fuck quotes, have him show you a PAID invoice =)
[15:31:36] <CaptHindsight> closer to $25 with material
[15:31:41] <zeeshan> nahh
[15:31:42] <XXCoder> zeeshan: too bad you dont have autoloader
[15:31:46] <XXCoder> would be hella faster
[15:31:50] <zeeshan> XXCoder: lol yea
[15:31:54] <zeeshan> just let it do the entire work
[15:31:56] <zeeshan> dont even have to be there
[15:32:01] <CaptHindsight> put the file up for bids
[15:32:08] <CaptHindsight> see what people come back with
[15:32:17] <zeeshan> im letting him do that
[15:32:19] <CaptHindsight> bet it's 10-15 ea
[15:32:31] <zeeshan> i already asked another local shop for it
[15:32:39] <zeeshan> they quoted me 18 per part
[15:32:41] <zeeshan> he doesnt believe me :)
[15:32:43] <CaptHindsight> see
[15:32:44] <zeeshan> so let him do the work
[15:33:11] <zeeshan> the only way i can see this being made cheaper is 1. china
[15:33:19] <zeeshan> 2. have a die to forge these into shape
[15:36:32] <XXCoder> complete automation
[15:37:05] <XXCoder> start and forget so basically few minutes work, and only machine time (and its assocated stuff like power usage)
[15:37:07] <CaptHindsight> do you have a few weeks, get them from China
[15:37:22] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: would china do .0003 precision?
[15:37:32] <XXCoder> that is just very precise
[15:37:37] <zeeshan> 0.003
[15:37:43] <XXCoder> oh misread
[15:37:46] <CaptHindsight> sure they have the same machines there
[15:37:50] <XXCoder> .003 still pretty precise
[15:38:01] <zeeshan> china can do it for cheap
[15:38:01] <XXCoder> sure but will they make sure?
[15:38:03] <zeeshan> and hold that tolerance
[15:38:07] <zeeshan> but only on 20% of the parts
[15:38:07] <zeeshan> lol
[15:38:09] <CaptHindsight> you just order 900 to get 600 :)
[15:38:16] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: exactly lol
[15:38:21] <XXCoder> and still make money? probably yes
[15:38:34] <zeeshan> it wont be 316L either
[15:38:39] <zeeshan> it will be 316chinaL
[15:39:01] <XXCoder> zeeshan: has a way to test material?
[15:39:02] <CaptHindsight> if you don't notice why does it matter? :)
[15:39:16] <zeeshan> these are used as pins
[15:39:22] <zeeshan> to hold fancy sewage covers
[15:39:26] <zeeshan> so they see a rough life
[15:39:42] <CaptHindsight> so the 0.003 doesn't last anyway
[15:39:42] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: depen on where actually
[15:40:01] <zeeshan> i have a mass spectrometer at school
[15:40:07] <zeeshan> but i wouldnt use it for business reasons
[15:40:12] <zeeshan> personal yes, but not business :P
[15:40:16] <zeeshan> thats a big conflict of interest
[15:40:16] <CaptHindsight> the parts will start at 0.003" then get dropped on the floor
[15:40:41] <CaptHindsight> swept up into a pail with a straw broom after somebody else welded nearby
[15:40:52] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: you're thinking too long term !
[15:40:59] <zeeshan> they'll be gone the minute they're put into the ground
[15:41:03] <zeeshan> by some metal scrappers haha
[15:41:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: I'm talking about the factory in China :)
[15:41:17] <zeeshan> oh
[15:41:44] <CaptHindsight> like all the bearings and ball screws we get, pre-cruchyfied
[15:42:10] <CaptHindsight> were fine but stored in a filthy environment
[15:42:42] <zeeshan> rusty?
[15:43:10] <XXCoder> bearings I got wasnt rusty but it sure was chunchy till I cleaned em out
[15:44:23] <CaptHindsight> http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/26394190/2/stock-photo-26394190-streetview-of-machine-shop-worker-in-china.jpg the kids that usually operate the press we on break for the photo
[15:44:44] <XXCoder> that's too high, lower it more
[15:45:26] <zeeshan> rofl
[15:45:36] <zeeshan> at least hes wearing a glove
[15:45:44] <zeeshan> i like how safety glasses are non heard of there
[15:45:59] <XXCoder> chinese goverment is slowly starting to crack down
[15:46:08] <XXCoder> but too late, the standards will be low there
[15:46:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.scottosphere.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/widelux-machineshop-nov2009.jpg most shops there I've seen look like this
[15:46:19] <XXCoder> and chinese is now focusing on pollution cuts
[15:47:18] <CaptHindsight> https://rcoates.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/chinese-machine-shop-2.jpg
[15:47:22] <LeelooMinai> CaptHindsight: They have surface plates even - so probably even do quality tests:)
[15:47:53] <zeeshan> http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/201206/155039648.jpg
[15:47:55] <CaptHindsight> I've been in their QC rooms where I had to wear the socks over my shoes and it was temp controlled
[15:48:01] <zeeshan> if she's making my parts in china
[15:48:05] <zeeshan> IM DEFINTELY sending EM
[15:48:11] <CaptHindsight> the gauges were in a temp controlled safe
[15:48:34] <CaptHindsight> I never saw any of it used however but it is there
[15:48:36] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: youve gone to china?
[15:48:51] <CaptHindsight> I have an office there
[15:48:54] <LeelooMinai> CaptHindsight: Socks over shoes? It was that cold? :)
[15:49:04] <CaptHindsight> they gave us $$, money and factory space
[15:49:05] <XXCoder> interesting, QA at place I work is definitely temp controlled in room but we dont need to use socks and such
[15:49:33] <CaptHindsight> antistatic stretch socks
[15:52:58] <XXCoder> guess they has issue with static there
[15:54:08] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/26pSIEbxrGnR this what most new factories look like there when you get the space
[15:54:18] <zeeshan> wow
[15:54:19] <zeeshan> that looks nice
[15:54:26] <CaptHindsight> limited elevators
[15:54:40] <zeeshan> are the columns stuffed with garbage?
[15:55:15] <zeeshan> http://justreveal.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/china_bridge2.jpg
[15:55:18] <LeelooMinai> THose are not columns - those are elevators for stuff.
[15:55:18] <zeeshan> http://www.weirdasianews.com/2010/02/05/shanghai-wonderbridge-trash-collapses/
[15:56:22] <LeelooMinai> Styrofoam concrete - pretty space-age
[15:56:28] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/26pT5Fk3JFqs typical outside
[15:56:40] <zeeshan> why pink
[15:56:43] <zeeshan> =/
[15:57:02] <LeelooMinai> Probably pink in China means something else
[15:57:10] <zeeshan> breast cancer awarness?
[15:57:39] <CaptHindsight> it's harder to find spaces with high ceilings, the standard ceiling height is 3m
[15:58:01] <LeelooMinai> "Red is the cultural color of the Chinese people. It symbolises fire, vitality, happiness and celebration."
[15:58:07] <CaptHindsight> pink in pink zone, yellow in yellow zone etc
[15:58:15] <LeelooMinai> So maybe that pink was a shade of red
[15:58:27] <CaptHindsight> red is lucky
[15:58:30] <zeeshan> must feel great supporting communism
[15:58:31] <zeeshan> :-)
[15:58:54] <CaptHindsight> in the US?
[15:59:02] <zeeshan> buying chinese stuff
[15:59:45] <CaptHindsight> you trade one set of problems for another
[16:00:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.chinalawblog.com/2015/03/china-factory-problems-always-your-fault.html
[16:00:31] <SpeedEvil> Recommended reading
[16:00:40] <CaptHindsight> commie capitalists = bad, vs crony capitalists = good
[16:01:19] <SpeedEvil> http://www.chinalawblog.com/2013/08/how-to-get-good-product-from-china-specificity-is-the-key-to-your-oem-agreement.html
[16:01:29] <CaptHindsight> it's funny when I watch the news here or there, it's all so slanted
[16:01:45] <CaptHindsight> the other guys are always bad
[16:02:49] <CaptHindsight> when CCTV or RT does a story on the US, but ignore what they do, similar to CNN, ABC etc here
[16:03:22] <CaptHindsight> wish there was a unbiased Martian network
[16:04:26] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: reading over that info really applies to non Chinese trying to do business there
[16:04:44] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: It depends.
[16:05:02] <SpeedEvil> A lot of it also applies to chinese, but chinese people mostly know how the system works.
[16:05:12] <furrywolf> how to get a good product from china: make it somewhere else
[16:05:19] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: all news is slanted
[16:05:36] <CaptHindsight> what good products, who still makes any?
[16:05:46] <SpeedEvil> For example, a chinese company is not going to screw up on letting employees work without contracts.
[16:05:47] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i disagree
[16:05:52] <zeeshan> china makes plenty of good stuff
[16:06:00] <SpeedEvil> Because the penalties are too high.
[16:06:06] <zeeshan> i just have a hard time buying them without a g uilty conscience
[16:06:16] <zeeshan> cause im supporting communism by doing so :P
[16:06:23] <zeeshan> and taking away business from canada/usa
[16:06:39] <zeeshan> but when a deadblow hammer is $70 made in usa
[16:06:42] <zeeshan> vs $1.99 made in china
[16:06:47] <Deejay> gn8
[16:06:47] <zeeshan> it's hard not to.
[16:07:27] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/Estwing-CCD53-Deadblow-Hammer-53-Ounce/dp/B00DPL0Y98
[16:07:40] <zeeshan> http://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/1-lb-dead-blow-hammer/A-p2943280e
[16:07:40] <XXCoder> zeeshan: freight harbour $5 or so but yeah chinese made
[16:07:42] <zeeshan> its not on sale
[16:07:45] <zeeshan> but $2 on sale
[16:07:50] <SpeedEvil> Then there is the point that a $1.99 one, made in teh USA will employ abou tthe same number of americans as the chinese factory - plus or minus rounding errors
[16:08:25] <zeeshan> standard of living is much diff
[16:09:06] <CaptHindsight> standard or cost of living?
[16:09:16] <zeeshan> both
[16:09:39] <furrywolf> it has nothing to do with specificity. you do not need to specify "do not substitute counterfeit components", "do not leave out half the parts", "do not use floor sweepings", "do not also make them for other people", "all parts should make tolerances on diagrams", etc.
[16:09:41] <CaptHindsight> depends on what you define as "living" :)
[16:10:09] <SpeedEvil> http://www.clb.org.hk/en/view-resource-centre-content/100206
[16:10:28] <CaptHindsight> it;s difficult to just go to China and start to have parts made well
[16:10:40] <CaptHindsight> you have to develop relationships
[16:11:21] <CaptHindsight> when i hard these stories about people hiring some company to make some widget and pay them $500k it's just insane
[16:11:29] <CaptHindsight> hard/hear
[16:12:17] <CaptHindsight> you have to understand the culture there, it's not the west
[16:12:38] <furrywolf> "but you didn't tell us not to replace the traces on the circuit board with recycled tire belting! it's your fault!"
[16:13:02] <CaptHindsight> to them it's the same thing
[16:13:09] <CaptHindsight> if it works it works
[16:13:35] <furrywolf> no, it's "how can we get away with everything we possibly can so we can screw the customer as much as possible".
[16:14:23] <CaptHindsight> they wonder why we would not like that if it works, same for $1.99 hammer, how many times will you use it?
[16:14:38] <CaptHindsight> if you don't notice or care why should they?
[16:14:49] <furrywolf> I've broken most of the chinese hammers I've used.
[16:14:54] <furrywolf> I do not buy them.
[16:15:07] <zeeshan> stop abusing your hammers !
[16:15:18] <furrywolf> my Eastwing doesn't say china on it, and hasn't broken.
[16:15:21] <CaptHindsight> I have some pics from Chinese infomercials
[16:15:29] <zeeshan> ive never broken a hammer
[16:15:30] <zeeshan> EVER
[16:15:33] <zeeshan> and i abuse mine
[16:15:38] <CaptHindsight> fat reducing spray is my favorite
[16:15:38] <zeeshan> both china, mexico , usa
[16:15:39] <zeeshan> !2
[16:15:41] <zeeshan> !!
[16:16:41] <furrywolf> "if the customer doesn't specify it, do a good job" is how things should be made. "if the customer doesn't specify it, do it as absolutely fucking wrongly as possible" is how china factories do it.
[16:17:02] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/26pZJmLlUDTB
[16:17:22] <CaptHindsight> the next frame was a thin stomach
[16:17:52] <CaptHindsight> they even sprayed a slab of pork on a scale and it lost a few Kg before your eyes
[16:17:54] <furrywolf> next time your customer wants something made in stainless, make it in stainless plated pot metal. say their contract didn't specify it had to be solid stainless. see how well that goes over...
[16:18:04] <zeeshan> lol
[16:18:05] <zeeshan> i like
[16:18:17] <zeeshan> its technically true!
[16:19:34] <malcom2073> The best kind of true
[16:19:36] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: The problem is that in china, if you do that, the court may side with the factory
[16:19:47] <malcom2073> s/may/will
[16:20:00] <SpeedEvil> In the US, the court would side with the purchaser - for people dealing in the same country
[16:20:02] <SpeedEvil> not international
[16:20:15] <malcom2073> There was a documentary on intellectual property rights, and factories in china... went into some of that stuff, it's interesting over there
[16:20:19] <SpeedEvil> Chinese courts do not read in 'reasonableness' provisions into contracts
[16:20:36] <SpeedEvil> You want it in the contract, you put it in the contract
[16:20:40] <CaptHindsight> why would you pay them 100% in advance?
[16:21:12] * furrywolf will have no dealings with a culture where "do the absolute worst job you can get away with" is considered acceptable.
[16:21:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: so you dont deal with americans?
[16:21:36] <zeeshan> :-)
[16:21:43] * zeeshan hides1
[16:21:47] <CaptHindsight> why would you place an order with a company you have no experience or have nobody else that has?
[16:22:31] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: that is wierd.
[16:22:44] <SpeedEvil> People seem to not do due dilligence they'd normally do in the states
[16:23:25] <CaptHindsight> and even then you have to stay on top of them, come in for QC, build a relationship
[16:23:36] <furrywolf> if I ever get into mass production, it will be IN HOUSE. if I can't make a profit, then I won't make. not going to deal with china.
[16:23:36] <CaptHindsight> heck even Apple has QC problems
[16:23:55] <CaptHindsight> get a Chinese partner
[16:24:01] <zeeshan> furrywolf: why so worked up
[16:24:24] <furrywolf> zeeshan: that blog blames the problems on the customer, and acts like it's acceptable to rip people off.
[16:24:40] <zeeshan> f that blog
[16:25:42] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: that is not where it's coming from - it's from the perspective of a firm that picks up the pieces after it all goes wrong.
[16:27:38] <CaptHindsight> I got some raw material in last week from a distributor in Florida that is made in China. the drum was not clear it was slightly brown...
[16:28:04] <CaptHindsight> when I poured half of it out there was grass/straw in it
[16:28:20] <furrywolf> It's your fault for not specifying the drum shouldn't be half-filled with straw.
[16:28:55] <CaptHindsight> the disti in FL had a similar story
[16:29:06] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: ow
[16:29:29] <CaptHindsight> so it's not a Chinese problem
[16:30:02] <CaptHindsight> a regular supplier in China would fix the problem to keep the relationship
[16:30:18] <CaptHindsight> my Florida distributor just cares about profit
[16:30:45] <CaptHindsight> my -ex distributor
[16:31:48] <furrywolf> sure them
[16:31:49] <furrywolf> sue
[16:32:21] <furrywolf> unless you were ordering bales of hay, a reasonable judge will figure "not filled with hay" to be implied.
[16:32:50] <CaptHindsight> it was a test order to work out all the kinks
[16:33:09] <CaptHindsight> they were removed from the supply chain
[16:33:55] <CaptHindsight> week late, straw, every excuse except for "the dog ate it"
[16:34:46] <CaptHindsight> so you have to vet every supplier everywhere
[16:35:29] <CaptHindsight> I think many of the China investments go bad due to greed from the investors
[16:36:19] <CaptHindsight> they think that they are going to make so much money off of dumb chinese workers that they do their due diligence and then complain about the Chinese
[16:36:54] <MrFluffy> Lao wai hen sha, hen hao pian...
[16:37:01] <CaptHindsight> read over the complaints, the one guys put the condo in his girlfriends name to find out that he didn't have to
[16:37:20] <CaptHindsight> did he check with a lawyer first?
[16:38:03] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: My general point should probably be summed up as 'Why the hell are you ordering from a supplier when you don't fully understand the legal, practical, and contractual relationship between you'
[16:38:08] <MrFluffy> CaptHindsight, it means roughly foreigners are stupid, easy to cheat... I work with some chinese vendors...
[16:38:12] <SpeedEvil> Which probably works anywhere.
[16:38:23] <CaptHindsight> "The guy who “invested” $500,000 into a China business because the owner of the Chinese business was allegedly the son of a five-star general" I'd run from that one from the start
[16:38:59] <CaptHindsight> "The countless people who call my firm after having sent tens of thousands of dollars (sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars) to someone in China for a product that never arrives." why would you do this?
[16:39:02] <SpeedEvil> Without a decent contract in chinese, you're pretty much boned if it comes to trying to sue.
[16:39:27] <MrFluffy> if you go into business in china with a western mindset on ethics and expectations, you will be screwed
[16:39:39] <CaptHindsight> "The US company that used its joint venture partner’s local Chinese lawyer (what was this company thinking?). The Chinese lawyer drafted up agreements that involved the American company giving its critical technology to the joint venture permanently, without getting any real influence or control in the venture."
[16:39:40] <SpeedEvil> Especially if you also try to use western contracts.
[16:39:45] <SpeedEvil> Which may actually be illegal
[16:41:13] <MrFluffy> its just a different world
[16:41:53] <MrFluffy> the potential gains are so massive people loose their heads and forget to nail everything down
[16:42:27] <MrFluffy> and the rules are stacked against western companies in any dispute with their chinese local partners
[16:42:27] <CaptHindsight> I've purposely had Chinese partners keep my name off the corporate docs there to see how they behave if they have the power
[16:43:26] <CaptHindsight> so you go in knowing that
[16:43:58] <CaptHindsight> saving face is a big thing there
[16:44:05] <MrFluffy> its not just your partners though , its the entire supply chain
[16:44:29] <CaptHindsight> so you have to be part of the group there, yeah you have to vet all the suppliers
[16:44:38] <MrFluffy> I have a friend who went in to set the dyno rooms up for a well known car maker who moved lines there, and they were seeing 40%+ failure rate in test on the engines
[16:44:48] <MrFluffy> same lines, same qc
[16:44:55] <MrFluffy> different suppliers of raw materials...
[16:45:00] <CaptHindsight> I arrived a few days before a trade show to be sure I'd have all the equipment working
[16:45:24] <CaptHindsight> it arrived the day before and things didn't fit
[16:45:26] <zeeshan> lol my gf gave me her pants with asecurity tag that the clerk forgot to take off
[16:45:35] <zeeshan> these things are so easy to break
[16:45:41] <zeeshan> you just chip the head with a side cutter
[16:45:45] <zeeshan> and it pops off
[16:45:54] <CaptHindsight> i was up till 3am machining in the bathroom
[16:46:35] <MrFluffy> and now, china is becoming too expensive for the real bottom feeder companies, and theyre moving on to africa now
[16:46:36] <CaptHindsight> never used that supplier again
[16:47:02] <CaptHindsight> yeah 300m+ in their middle class now
[16:47:58] <CaptHindsight> on the other hand, western bands have fooled them
[16:48:23] <CaptHindsight> they think anything with a western brand name is good and a status symbol
[16:48:53] <CaptHindsight> even if made in China
[16:49:01] <MrFluffy> hehe in the local supermarket they have imported tee's with "english" text on them
[16:49:23] <CaptHindsight> I pay more for some things there than when back in the states
[16:49:35] <CaptHindsight> Engrish
[16:49:37] <MrFluffy> I'm in france, so it seems nobody but me spots that the language is miles off being correct...
[16:49:45] <CaptHindsight> they call it Chinglish
[16:49:58] <MrFluffy> there was a site for that in japan, engrish.com or something
[16:50:13] <CaptHindsight> but they are equal opportunity typoists
[16:50:44] <CaptHindsight> we bought some bags with Spanish typos in HK
[16:50:48] <furrywolf> my new laptop proudly claims to be made in japan with no chinese components. I find this amusing.
[16:50:56] <MrFluffy> hah they have moved with the times and now have a chinglish section
[16:53:59] <furrywolf> I should be working on my car, but my neck is hurting a lot... I probably should lie down instead.
[16:54:36] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Is anything getting a little better?
[16:54:47] <SpeedEvil> Or is it still at the 'getting worse' phase.
[16:55:01] <furrywolf> some things better, some things worse
[16:55:32] <furrywolf> the front of neck muscle pain has mostly gone away, replaced by a generalized entire neck pain...
[16:55:48] <furrywolf> the back pain is now a few spots, one on my left lower back and one on the right upper back.
[16:56:04] <zeeshan> insurance claim?!
[16:56:54] <furrywolf> I have to work tomorrow, as I couldn't get anyone to fill in for me... that's going to suck.
[16:57:28] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/26plPPkjAEEH my favorite, but what if i walked and didn't bring a bike?
[16:57:50] <JT-REMOTE> Zeeshan pm me
[16:58:20] <zeeshan> done
[16:58:57] <zeeshan> whoops resend that message
[16:58:58] <zeeshan> plz
[16:59:02] <zeeshan> accicdently x'ed
[16:59:25] <zeeshan> (doing solidworks and hit esc while the screen popped up )
[17:10:34] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: it dont say physical bicycle
[17:10:41] <XXCoder> so just take off your imangary bicycle
[17:11:28] <furrywolf> it also doesn't tell you not to get back on
[17:11:36] <XXCoder> lol indeed
[17:12:42] <CaptHindsight> but they were polite
[17:13:52] <XXCoder> I remember one silly comic where one "villian" polately requested that he take over, and they was stuck with cultural norms so they gave country to him
[17:20:43] <zeeshan> man there is something appealing about being abile to compile and run eand execute some code
[17:20:59] <zeeshan> on a computer and apparatus that is 45 min away from me
[17:21:33] <furrywolf> I think linode has servers in japan... you can compile stuff really far away from you. :P
[17:21:55] <zeeshan> lol
[17:22:06] <zeeshan> im learning c#
[17:22:22] <CaptHindsight> wasn't there a website with a built in 3d model viewer?
[17:22:28] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/08aGAK2.png
[17:22:32] <zeeshan> look on the bottom right
[17:22:42] <zeeshan> that's what my pressure transducer is outputting in the lab :D
[17:23:43] <furrywolf> ... you're running c# exes on linux?
[17:24:17] <zeeshan> yesir
[17:24:27] <zeeshan> using mono
[17:24:32] <furrywolf> ... lol?
[17:24:32] <XXCoder> uing mono?
[17:24:35] <XXCoder> guessed so
[17:24:35] <furrywolf> why the hell would you do that?
[17:24:36] <furrywolf> lol
[17:24:42] <zeeshan> the libraries are for c# only
[17:24:43] <zeeshan> thats why
[17:24:50] <zeeshan> not for c
[17:24:50] <zeeshan> =/
[17:25:08] <furrywolf> and they do not have c++ bindings?
[17:26:53] <zeeshan> not that ive seen
[17:28:10] <CaptHindsight> spacex boom go again
[17:28:17] <XXCoder> linjk?
[17:28:30] <CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2015-06-spacex-failure-rocket-erupts.html
[17:29:54] <XXCoder> space is hard
[17:29:58] <zeeshan> video?
[17:35:12] <furrywolf> bbl, plugs and wires for subaru
[17:36:00] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: https://youtu.be/Upt7ZTvcriY?t=7s similar
[17:36:14] <zeeshan> :(
[17:37:41] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: actual vid https://youtu.be/PuNymhcTtSQ?t=3m5s
[17:37:55] <zeeshan> good job sir
[17:39:00] <XXCoder> sucks
[17:39:20] <CaptHindsight> how many did we lose in the 60's?
[17:40:15] <CaptHindsight> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents
[17:44:30] <XXCoder> not surpised
[17:44:32] <XXCoder> space is hard
[17:44:45] <XXCoder> I didnt realize how hard it was till I played ksp[
[17:45:09] <XXCoder> and thats just getting to space and design using existing parts. making new parts is way harder
[17:55:36] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTom8xVzFdo - in slowmo
[17:57:55] <SpeedEvil> Stage two issue releasing LOX at the top of the rocket. Cloud of vapour. Stage two unzips, and dumps all contents, stage 1 flies through, and ignites cloud. Stage 1 still working up until several seconds later
[18:07:27] <CaptHindsight> I found the comments in Czech and Italian to be the least helpful
[18:09:07] <CaptHindsight> and FeststoffBoostern the most amusing
[18:12:11] <_Sync_> hmm, wtf I have an old krollmorgen servo with an AC tach unit
[18:12:37] <_Sync_> which outputs three phase voltage
[18:13:45] <archivist> resolver
[18:16:38] <_Sync_> no
[18:16:41] <_Sync_> it is not a resolver
[18:16:43] <_Sync_> it is a tach
[18:18:14] <_Sync_> because it also does not output a high quality sine
[18:19:45] <pcw_home> An AC tach will be a permanent magnet generator
[18:19:55] <_Sync_> yeah
[18:20:04] <_Sync_> just never seen that
[18:20:21] <pcw_home> 3 phase means only a few percent ripple
[18:20:40] <pcw_home> and no brushes
[18:22:12] <_Sync_> well, it outputs a very flat top sine and they have an additional hall pos sensor on there
[18:23:04] <pcw_home> it may have optimized pole pieces for minimum ripple
[18:27:26] <_Sync_> probably
[18:31:55] <robin_sz> it looks like I may have a solution in the z_retract thing
[18:35:33] <cpresser> CaptHindsight: whats so amusing about feststoffboster?
[18:36:14] <furrywolf> well, that was pretty painless. subaru has new plugs and wires now. I had to use a u-joint for the two under the intake piping and MAF, but it was a relatively straight shot with no annoyances.
[18:37:09] <Jymmm> You had to undo a ujoint to replace sparkplugs?????????????
[18:37:39] <furrywolf> ... no, I use to USE a u-joint.
[18:38:22] <Jymmm> those funky ass bendy wrench socket thingies?
[18:38:27] <zeeshan> yes
[18:38:29] <furrywolf> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-3-8-in-Drive-Universal-Joint-H3DUNIV/202913556
[18:38:30] <zeeshan> they let you angle
[18:38:37] <furrywolf> you don't actually know anything about vehicles or tools, do you? :P
[18:38:37] <zeeshan> easy to snap :)
[18:39:29] <archivist> I had a pin drop out of one
[18:39:30] <Jymmm> I done work on cars that you need funky ass tools to replace spark plugs, or shit like take of the FL tire to replace the oil filter.
[18:39:39] <Tom_itx> wobble socket
[18:39:39] <Jymmm> off*
[18:39:47] <_Sync_> didn't have to use the obligatory 1" oil drain screw impact wrench furrywolf?
[18:40:09] <furrywolf> u-joints are not "funky ass". I could have undid the two hose clamps holding the intake pipe in place, but a u-joint was easier.
[18:40:26] <Jymmm> furrywolf: THIS ujoint http://shop.broncograveyard.com/images/1310ujoint.jpg
[18:40:32] <_Sync_> that's not really shit after all Jymmm, if you do an oilchange on a hoist (which every shop does), the tire is easy enough to remove
[18:40:44] <furrywolf> _Sync_: no. the spark plugs were a bit stuck, but nothing the 3/8" drive ratchet couldn't get out.
[18:41:16] <Jymmm> _Sync_: There are soem GM cars you have to jack up the engine to replace the il filter
[18:41:25] <_Sync_> yeah but that is GM
[18:41:30] <furrywolf> yes, I know what other types of u-joints there are. context is your friend. as is reading what people write.
[18:42:13] <Jymmm> furrywolf: YEah, you mention MAF, intake piping, fuck why not have to take apart ehe axle to replace a spark plug too
[18:42:27] <_Sync_> what most people don't realize working on cars is that they are optimized for assembly speed, not to maintain them efficiently
[18:42:31] <Tom_itx> seems fair to me
[18:42:39] <furrywolf> my car has 8 CV joints (4 rzeppa, 4 tripod), 3 big u-joints, and 3 little u-joints.
[18:43:22] <Jymmm> furrywolf: how many times have you replaced the CV boots?
[18:43:22] <furrywolf> Jymmm: the intake piping is held on with a hose clamp on either end. it would have taken less than 30 seconds to remove. but it takes less than 10 seconds to stick a u-joint on the extension.
[18:43:34] <furrywolf> zero. one needs replacing at the moment.
[18:43:38] <jdh> my daughters PoS chrysler requires removing the front wheel to change the battery
[18:44:01] <Jymmm> furrywolf: cheaper to just replace the whole shaft?
[18:44:02] <furrywolf> Jymmm: trust me, as cars go, this was an EASY spark plug job.
[18:44:15] <furrywolf> ... why would it be cheaper to replace a $90 shaft instead of a $9 boot?
[18:44:34] <_Sync_> jdh: with the transmission control module in the inner fender?
[18:45:12] <zeeshan> furrywolf: lies
[18:45:15] <zeeshan> easiest is 4g64
[18:45:25] <zeeshan> pop off plujg boots
[18:45:27] <zeeshan> replace plugs!
[18:45:34] <furrywolf> jdh: no issues with changing the battery on my subaru. and it takes an 85Ah deepcycle. :P
[18:45:59] <zeeshan> btw
[18:46:05] <zeeshan> how are you working on a car with a busted body
[18:46:08] * zeeshan detects insurance scam
[18:46:14] <zeeshan> :]
[18:46:20] <jdh> it was cheap and she's a student. she can buy a real on in 1.5 years
[18:46:21] <furrywolf> zeeshan: this motor probably would have been that easy in the original vehicle. the original motor in this car was that easy too.
[18:46:21] <furrywolf> I routed the intake plumbing where it is.
[18:46:35] <furrywolf> zeeshan: painfully
[18:46:38] <zeeshan> :(
[18:46:47] <furrywolf> just because something hurts doesn't mean you can't do it. heh.
[18:47:03] <Jymmm> zeeshan: furrywolf in in NorCal
[18:47:58] <Jymmm> zeeshan: pot is legal here =)
[18:48:09] <furrywolf> it was missing if you lugged the engine, felt like it might be secondary ignition... the spark plugs look very old, and the gap was 2-3 times what it should be. haven't done a test drive yet, but I'd wager it's fixed.
[18:48:10] <furrywolf> I might have just pulled oem spark plugs. lol
[18:48:32] <zeeshan> :D
[18:48:43] <furrywolf> engine has 130K on it IIRC.
[18:49:43] <_Sync_> nice
[18:49:54] <furrywolf> don't remember for sure, and any records thereof are long gone.
[18:50:14] <_Sync_> I really notice the sparkplug change in my golf
[18:50:18] <_Sync_> in the DSM, not so much
[18:50:53] <furrywolf> I've never noticed any change other than misfires. if it sparks, it works the same, regardless of what plug did the sparking.
[18:51:07] <_Sync_> spark energy changes
[18:51:13] <furrywolf> fancy spark plugs are primarily a way to extract money from people, imho.
[18:51:30] <_Sync_> in the golf the fuel consumption drops and it idles smoother
[18:51:58] <_Sync_> the dsm dynos 2hp higher with new plugs
[18:52:14] <_Sync_> which is insignificant tho
[18:52:20] <_Sync_> although it is repeatable
[18:52:51] <furrywolf> I've only ever used the butt dyno, and haven't noticed plugs making a difference.
[18:53:14] <zeeshan> you got a talon?
[18:53:20] <_Sync_> no
[18:53:25] <zeeshan> what dsm
[18:53:35] <_Sync_> mitsu colt
[18:53:38] <zeeshan> cool!
[18:53:53] <_Sync_> with a 4G63T waiting for it
[18:54:05] <furrywolf> I'm working on a '84 subaru with a '96 EJ22 in it.
[18:54:33] <furrywolf> out of a rolled impreza
[18:54:37] <_Sync_> but now it has the 4G93 DOHC in it which is fun enough
[18:54:44] <_Sync_> for the summer
[18:54:58] <_Sync_> love the oldschool 16V sound
[18:55:30] <furrywolf> how many horses and how much does the car weigh?
[18:55:42] <zeeshan> ius the colt awd
[18:55:43] <zeeshan> or fwd
[18:55:44] <zeeshan> i forget
[18:56:00] <malcom2073> Car weighs 3.4 horses
[18:56:10] <_Sync_> 1650 lbs and 140hp
[18:56:16] <_Sync_> it is fwd
[18:56:16] <zeeshan> lol
[18:56:18] <furrywolf> usually 0wd, because they're crappy cars that never run...
[18:56:19] <zeeshan> nice
[18:56:26] <zeeshan> wat
[18:56:29] <_Sync_> but I have half a lancer around
[18:56:33] <zeeshan> the fwd's run forever
[18:56:39] <_Sync_> there *was* an AWD colt
[18:56:40] <zeeshan> its the awd that are on jackstands
[18:56:48] <_Sync_> tho they only made 80
[18:56:57] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/2rkWE7Y.png
[18:56:57] <furrywolf> I have 2190lbs and 140hp... but that extra weight is a large station wagon and 4-wheel-drive. :P
[18:57:00] <zeeshan> attention programmers
[18:57:02] <zeeshan> what am i doing wrong
[18:57:13] <_Sync_> > station wagon
[18:57:16] <zeeshan> i need a carriage return between sample # xxxxx
[18:57:19] <zeeshan> and AI value
[18:57:21] <furrywolf> you're programming in a language no one uses
[18:57:26] <zeeshan> if i put \n
[18:57:33] <zeeshan> it all fails
[18:57:39] <zeeshan> furrywolf: this is a pretty standard console q
[18:57:44] <zeeshan> that goes across many langauges :)
[18:58:45] <furrywolf> yeah, and you need \n on linux and \r\n on windows, and you're trying to run a windows exe on linux, so who the fuck knows. :P
[18:59:00] <zeeshan> when i put \n
[18:59:02] <zeeshan> it goes crazy
[18:59:03] <zeeshan> starts flooding
[18:59:13] <furrywolf> also, don't increment variables in print statements. it may work, but that's how you write unmaintainable code. :P
[18:59:17] <Jymmm> zwon what line#?
[18:59:27] <Jymmm> zeeshan: on what line#?
[18:59:44] <furrywolf> so you're intentionally using just a \r to overwrite the same line repeatedly?
[18:59:50] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[18:59:54] <zeeshan> i wanna keep em in the same position
[19:00:01] <furrywolf> time for you to learn curses (the terminal interface, not the language additions).
[19:00:29] <furrywolf> or hard-code terminal escapes for whatever terminal emulator you're using.
[19:00:34] <_Sync_> lel
[19:00:43] <_Sync_> I'd rather use \r
[19:01:19] <furrywolf> \r won't magically go up a line. :)
[19:01:27] <zeeshan> how do you go up one line
[19:01:28] <zeeshan> ?!?!
[19:01:48] <furrywolf> you use ncurses or hard-coded terminal escapes.
[19:01:52] <_Sync_> yeah
[19:02:08] <_Sync_> this a client side issue more or less
[19:02:24] <_Sync_> throw raw bytes over serial and make the client work it
[19:02:36] <zeeshan> what b a terminal escape? :)
[19:02:53] <Jymmm> zeeshan: redraw the screen =)
[19:02:58] <zeeshan> haha
[19:04:46] <zeeshan> a terminal escapes are "\r" etc
[19:05:16] <furrywolf> no, that's a control character.
[19:05:20] <furrywolf> an escape is more complicated.
[19:05:56] <toner> basically the raw output of ncurses
[19:05:58] <toner> http://www.termsys.demon.co.uk/vtansi.htm
[19:08:58] <toner> tho \r is nice for things like updating bar graphs, or status updates on a single line
[19:09:13] <zeeshan> lol i hacked it
[19:09:15] <zeeshan> Console.Clear();
[19:09:26] <toner> redraw? :P
[19:09:28] <zeeshan> haha yea
[19:10:00] <zeeshan> theres also a Console.SetCursorPosition
[19:10:01] <furrywolf> all that does is generate an appropriate terminal escape sequence... hopefully in a platform-independent termio-using way, but not likely. lol
[19:10:45] <toner> :)
[19:10:54] <toner> yeah, raw vt100 codes are not portable
[19:11:25] <furrywolf> s/termio/termcap
[19:11:26] * furrywolf is tired
[19:14:30] <zeeshan> got it
[19:14:32] <zeeshan> all i had to do was
[19:14:38] <zeeshan> Console.SetCursorPosition(0, 10);
[19:14:42] <zeeshan> and spit out the output
[19:14:50] <zeeshan> much faster refreshing than console clear
[19:15:35] <furrywolf> as I said, be warned that may be implemented in a non-portable fashion. I don't know how mono does it.
[19:15:46] <zeeshan> dude
[19:15:50] <zeeshan> i aint writing an app for the masses
[19:15:53] <zeeshan> do i look like a programmer! :P
[19:16:00] <zeeshan> !!
[19:16:06] <furrywolf> good point. you're writing C#...
[19:16:07] <zeeshan> im jerry rigging this shit
[19:16:07] <zeeshan> hahaha
[19:16:13] <zeeshan> i know python
[19:16:15] <zeeshan> not C#!
[19:16:25] <furrywolf> heh, the last program I wrote like that just prints repeatedly and lets it scroll. :P
[19:16:25] <Tom_itx> what do you look like??
[19:16:34] <furrywolf> FX port 1, inv 0.0A, chg 0.0A, buy 0.0A, sell 0.0A, load 0.0A, in 0.0V, out 122.0V, batt 29.4V, mode 2, ac 0, error 0x00, warning 0x00, misc 0x08.
[19:16:34] <furrywolf> MX port 2, chg 14.0A, pv 0.0A, batt 29.4V, pv 32.0V, daily 0.0kWh 9999.0Ah, aux 0, error 0x00, charger 2.
[19:16:34] <furrywolf> FN port 3, A 8.2A (enabled), B 0.0A (disabled), C 0.0A (disabled), batt 29.0V, btemp 99.0C, SOC 100.0%, flags 0x01, extra id 5, data 0.00.
[19:16:36] <furrywolf> like that. :P
[19:16:46] <zeeshan> haha
[19:16:54] <zeeshan> wtf
[19:17:04] <zeeshan> you have a battery charger program?
[19:17:15] <furrywolf> I wrote a program to monitor my solar system
[19:17:19] <zeeshan> ah
[19:17:35] <furrywolf> FX is inverter, MX is charge controller, FN is dc monitor.
[19:17:42] <furrywolf> (outback's product codes)
[19:19:39] <furrywolf> the inverter only has 1A granularity on the currents... I'm printing the first decimal place because I plan to add some logic and filtering that tries to get better accuracy. this is why they all read 0, even though I'm using power...
[19:20:31] <furrywolf> there was a description on the forums with a table showing which values to add 0.5 to in which modes to result in a marginally less inaccurate result.
[19:20:40] <zeeshan> you have some adc
[19:20:47] <zeeshan> to grab the current?
[19:21:39] <furrywolf> it's all using outback's products. the DC monitor (the third row, FN) is the current shunt monitor for the batteries. everything else is the devices reporting themselves over the communications bus.
[19:21:54] <zeeshan> what kind of comm bus
[19:22:39] <furrywolf> dunno. couldn't find specs on line, and I'm too lazy to 'scope it. I'm using outback's box that gives you data over rs232.
[19:22:54] <zeeshan> its gotta be some standard protocol
[19:23:15] <furrywolf> doubtful, since it also does the phase synchronization over it, which implies hard real time...
[19:24:08] <furrywolf> it would be very amusing if bus collisions resulted in parallel inverters getting out of phase. :P
[19:24:24] <zeeshan> canbus can do realtime
[19:24:45] <furrywolf> it uses a hub, I know that much.
[19:24:52] <furrywolf> I have a 4-port hub, they also have a 10port available.
[19:26:05] <furrywolf> bbl, store, food, shower.
[19:47:43] <Jymmm> store food shower? Does it was the inside of can goods too?
[19:47:46] <Jymmm> wash*
[19:48:10] <Jymmm> like those spraers in the pridce dept
[19:48:14] <Jymmm> sprayers
[19:48:29] <Jymmm> produce*
[19:49:19] * Jymmm ponders if dsylexic fingers is a real thing?
[19:50:46] <LeelooMinai> Porablby not
[19:51:06] <Jymmm> if it is, I caught it from you =)
[19:52:10] <malcom2073> haha
[19:53:33] <Jymmm> I wonder if this is a repackaged roofing coating? http://www.amazon.com/Dial-Evaporative-Cooler-Coating-Black/dp/B000BQUUT4/
[19:54:46] <malcom2073> Wait, I thought swap coolers were just a thing rednecks did with their spare ice, that's actually a *thing*?
[19:55:17] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Oh yeah, especially in low humidity cliamtes like AZ NV NM
[19:55:34] <malcom2073> I guess living in such a high humidity area it never occured to me that people would actually do that
[19:55:58] <Jymmm> They work REALLY well too
[19:56:21] <Jymmm> drop temps at least 30 degrees F
[19:56:38] <malcom2073> Wow nice
[19:56:54] <Jymmm> Water is an exceptional heat sink
[19:57:11] <malcom2073> Yeah I just started wikipeding about it heh
[19:57:31] <Jymmm> Now, during the monsoon season in AZ each year. forget it... hit the AC!!!
[19:59:15] <Jymmm> You'll have heavy calcium deposits each year, and you replace the pads each year. but thats about it.
[19:59:29] <malcom2073> Hmm, cool
[19:59:40] <malcom2073> shame it never hits below 50% humidity here
[19:59:41] <Jymmm> But on roof top units, many dont do maintance like that
[19:59:59] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Whaere are you and on how many acres?
[20:00:20] <malcom2073> South central PA, and only 1.5 acres
[20:00:29] <malcom2073> I've thought about doing geothermal cooling using trench dug lines
[20:00:40] <malcom2073> Can be DIY'ed with a ditch witch and a weekend
[20:00:42] <Jymmm> malcom2073: You know, that 6ft below you is 58F
[20:00:46] <malcom2073> Yep
[20:01:25] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Just dig a well, toss some tubing down it, and youre good summer and winter
[20:01:30] <malcom2073> Have to convert to central air to take real advantage of that though, or find some creative way of piping the cool water to distribution units in each room. It's a project that will someday be done heh
[20:01:39] <Jymmm> in the summer, you can even do solar
[20:01:44] <malcom2073> Yeah, a $200 ditch witch rental, or $4000 well drill :-P
[20:02:09] <malcom2073> You need a decent amount of linear footage underground to absorb the heat
[20:02:13] <Jymmm> OH, use one of those fiber optic drillers
[20:02:14] <malcom2073> otherwise that patch of ground will get warm
[20:02:25] <Jymmm> have you seen them?
[20:02:32] <malcom2073> No, do tell?
[20:02:44] <malcom2073> Ohhh directional drilling
[20:02:46] <malcom2073> I've heard of that before
[20:03:04] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: http://www.dialmfg.com/Technical%20Assistance/MSDS/Cooler%20Coating_files/2012%20Cooler%20Coating%20MSDS%205347-5351-5366.pdf
[20:03:05] <Jymmm> Ueah, it's shallow, just drills a holehoritontally
[20:03:07] <malcom2073> It's all the craze nowadays in cheaply laying cable without digging up road/driveways/etc
[20:03:34] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Yep, that is EXACTLY what it is, roof coating
[20:03:40] <Jymmm> bastards =)
[20:03:54] <malcom2073> I wonder if you can rent a directional driller
[20:03:57] <CaptHindsight> uhmerikan kapitalists
[20:04:01] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Glad I caught it BEFORE buying the roof coating =)
[20:04:31] <Jymmm> I'm still pondering gargae floor exoxy paint
[20:04:48] <CaptHindsight> probably the best price
[20:05:04] <CaptHindsight> but not formulated to flex much
[20:05:21] <Jymmm> http://www.amazon.com/Rubberized-Spray-Coating-16-Aerosol/dp/B000R84CA4
[20:05:58] <CaptHindsight> that the one we didn't know what the actual "rubber" is
[20:06:25] <Jymmm> I saw this too, still not sure http://www.amazon.com/Packaging-300-0-1-Qt-Submarine-Sealer/dp/B00GVKV0NY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_60_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0F8M893E04DBP0RNDSNW
[20:06:31] <malcom2073> ohhhhh sunbelt might rent them
[20:06:47] <CaptHindsight> automotive undercoating
[20:07:22] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Funny thing, the conduit they use to protect fiber optic cable is the EXACT same HDPE /pex crap just in 2" form
[20:07:25] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: have a pic of the cooler?
[20:07:48] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Nice. Yeah sunbelt rents a 2" horizontalboring tool (I assume that comes with the power feed? I'd have to check) for $200 a day
[20:07:56] <malcom2073> Though tbh
[20:08:07] <malcom2073> where I'd put it, is a large flat area. Probably easier to just dig a trench
[20:08:09] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: It's really any cooler, this is a random pic I found http://cdn.gogetfunding.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/38483/IMG_0472.JPG
[20:08:56] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: http://modesto.craigslist.org/app/5086711325.html
[20:09:01] <malcom2073> Hmm, trenchers only go down to 36" :/
[20:09:16] <CaptHindsight> some duct tape and super spray rubber sealer and it's good to go 5 + more years
[20:09:26] <Jymmm> hahaha
[20:09:49] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: no rubber sprayjust use plastic sheet
[20:09:56] <Jymmm> and red duct tape
[20:10:44] <Jymmm> I still have no clue why a HDPE swamp cooler hasn't been made yet
[20:11:10] <CaptHindsight> https://img0.etsystatic.com/003/0/5647924/il_fullxfull.379120464_mvmp.jpg the pattern confuses the gremlins so they don't attack it
[20:11:12] <Jymmm> IF they can make jumbo trashcans and palyhouse out of the shit, why not a rust proof swamp cooler
[20:11:42] <CaptHindsight> that would be like making razor blades that don't get dull
[20:11:58] <CaptHindsight> silly idea
[20:12:00] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Yeah, you're right, wtf was I thinking
[20:12:48] <CaptHindsight> F*** you thats why, just give us your money
[20:12:49] * Jymmm whsitle while hiding the sheets of HDPE
[20:12:56] <CaptHindsight> like everything else
[20:13:36] <Jymmm> Honestly though, at $600 for a swamp cooler, I could make a $800 one and it would sell
[20:13:53] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: the sad part is that there's hardly anyone left that would actually care about products that last
[20:14:01] <malcom2073> Looks like minimum of 3ft
[20:14:02] <CaptHindsight> the brand name is far more important
[20:14:24] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: sad, but true
[20:14:49] <Jymmm> That's why I NEVER loan out tools. Some of which I can never replace
[20:15:03] <CaptHindsight> remember when there were TV commercials about being best, most reliable etc etc
[20:15:13] <CaptHindsight> it's odd to watch them now
[20:15:15] <malcom2073> Heh, remember Maytag? Nobody else does
[20:15:17] <Jymmm> Disposable society
[20:15:28] <CaptHindsight> Maytag exactly
[20:15:41] <malcom2073> Maytag repairman nowadays isn't bored for lack of breaking, he's bored for lack of work, since people just throw out and buy new
[20:15:43] <Jymmm> The lonely maytag repair man
[20:16:07] <Jymmm> nobody gets a tv/stereo fixed
[20:16:35] <malcom2073> On the bright side, craigslist has lots of broken stuff forcheap
[20:17:19] <Jymmm> My phone audio went bad, but I have a MasterCard warranty. They wanted a repair estimate, I went to 5 places, nobody gives repair estiamtes
[20:17:30] <CaptHindsight> even large machine tools get written off after ~10 years
[20:18:04] <Jymmm> I wnet back to frys, talked to the store manager, as they are a licensed electronics rapair center "we dont repair phones",
[20:18:14] <CaptHindsight> I know this great cell phone repair mall in HK
[20:18:20] <CaptHindsight> they have all the parts
[20:18:25] <malcom2073> heh
[20:18:27] <Jymmm> He wrote me a repair quote for the time
[20:19:04] <Jymmm> I submitted it to the insurance comapny, they called the store, I explained that is the best I could do, nobody does this kind of repair.
[20:19:37] <Jymmm> They called the manufcturer, they said they dont do repairs either, the insurance company is sending me a check for the full purchase price.
[20:19:43] <malcom2073> lol nice
[20:19:59] <Jymmm> But, to beign the claim, they HAD to have a repair estimate.
[20:20:07] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBMevfUGsHQ heh a video
[20:20:46] <CaptHindsight> those are HK $ prices
[20:21:11] <Jymmm> I'm liking my Huawei Ascend MAte 2
[20:21:15] <CaptHindsight> ~7.7:1
[20:21:29] <malcom2073> I need to get a new phone, this republic wireless crap is getting annoying
[20:21:50] <Jymmm> 6.1" screen, unlocked, and I got the bootloader unlock code from the factory too
[20:22:13] <malcom2073> Bet you look like a right trendy fool with that thing on your ear
[20:22:19] <Jymmm> They are really trying to get into the US market
[20:22:44] <Jymmm> I could care less, I can read the screen without xooming of scrolling =)
[20:22:51] <CaptHindsight> falls back to Sprint's cellular network
[20:22:51] <malcom2073> lol
[20:23:19] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I'm 6'4", so it's actually "my size" scale wise
[20:23:41] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: yeah, but the service isn't the issue, it's the constantly switching between wifi/cell, dropping calls when doing so, and preferring to rely on a shitty wifi connection with bad call quality that annoys me
[20:23:43] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Haha
[20:23:43] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: how often are calls actually over wifi?
[20:23:54] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Most of the time, since I work from home
[20:24:08] <Jymmm> malcom2073: not holding a dinky toy phoen to my ear
[20:24:08] <CaptHindsight> why not Skype at home
[20:24:24] <CaptHindsight> and just get a real 3/4g phone for away
[20:24:34] <malcom2073> Or I get a 3/4g phone for both away and home?
[20:24:46] <malcom2073> I have shitty internet
[20:24:49] <malcom2073> it doesn't like doing phone calls
[20:24:51] <CaptHindsight> if you have coverage
[20:24:56] <malcom2073> I do
[20:24:58] <malcom2073> The coverage isn't the issue
[20:25:02] <Jymmm> malcom2073: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ML5GyPn4QI
[20:25:15] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I can charge OTHER devices FROM the phone
[20:25:20] <malcom2073> lol
[20:25:29] <Jymmm> 4000mAh battery
[20:25:46] <malcom2073> Yeah that's nuts huge
[20:27:02] <malcom2073> Tbh, price is more key to me than the phone itself
[20:27:13] <malcom2073> I'm thinking of doing straighttalk, pay as you go
[20:27:23] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I got it for $195 + a $25 gift card
[20:27:28] <malcom2073> NOt bad
[20:27:31] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I AM using prepaid
[20:27:35] <malcom2073> Lotta phone (size!) for the money
[20:27:35] <malcom2073> heh
[20:28:20] <malcom2073> Like I said, the phone doesn't matter that much to me
[20:28:26] <malcom2073> I use my phone for phone,txt, and email. That's really it
[20:28:37] <malcom2073> Pretty much any smart phone does that
[20:28:55] <Jymmm> I watch netflix on it
[20:29:00] <malcom2073> Yeah I have a TV for that :-P
[20:29:06] <Jymmm> I dl movies to it
[20:29:08] <malcom2073> But at 6.1", why not
[20:29:35] <Jymmm> and a 4AH battery =)
[20:30:21] <malcom2073> Glad you like it so much :P
[20:30:42] <Jymmm> I can't see paying $600 for aphone that you are going to replace in a year
[20:30:46] <malcom2073> Me neither
[20:30:58] <Jymmm> electronics have no residual value these days
[20:31:00] <malcom2073> I think I paid $100 for mine, 3 years ago heh
[20:31:23] <CaptHindsight> heh smartphones are becoming less voice call friendly
[20:31:28] <malcom2073> They really are
[20:31:39] <malcom2073> iphone is the only one I've ever been able to just pick up, and make a phone call on without having to fiddle with :/
[20:31:44] <malcom2073> Which is a shame because of how expensive they are
[20:31:52] <Jymmm> I have a draw full of phones, thay all work, the problem? cant rpelace the batteries or are too costly to repace
[20:32:09] <Jymmm> with REAL batteries, not chinese ones
[20:32:17] <CaptHindsight> it's like they only poll teens that text about how to improve the phone app in android
[20:32:48] <malcom2073> It's android, most of the apps are written by teens
[20:32:57] <CaptHindsight> sure seems that way
[20:33:45] <Tom_itx> i bet i'll never know half my phone's capabilities
[20:33:50] <CaptHindsight> speaking of apps I need one for IOS and Android that takes a picture of your shirt and tells you if it's dirty
[20:34:06] <malcom2073> Obvious troll is obvious? Or were you serious?
[20:34:17] <CaptHindsight> for people that need to told what do do, drink, eat, etc
[20:34:36] <CaptHindsight> like those water bottles on poopstarter
[20:34:47] <malcom2073> Ah ok the conversation is going there.
[20:35:02] <malcom2073> Jymmm: What pay as you go service do you use?
[20:36:15] <CaptHindsight> oh, or an app that tells you when your phone is obsolete, out of fashion, no longer a status symbol etc
[20:36:41] <CaptHindsight> hey loser, get a new phone
[20:36:58] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, that's pretty easy... just a soon as the next one is available
[20:37:23] <malcom2073> Oh nice, so most of these plans, offera set amount of 4g service, then they downgrade you to "low speed" for the rest of the month. Which is classified as 128kbps. Wtf happened to 3g?
[20:37:28] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: but it should use public ridicule if you don't conform
[20:40:13] <Tom_itx> i want an app that will send a wifi message to a LED billboard so i can send a message on the fily
[20:40:16] <Tom_itx> fly*
[20:41:35] <Tom_itx> think of the possibilities that could open up
[20:44:14] <CaptHindsight> billboard along the highway or similar?
[20:44:20] <Tom_itx> yes
[20:44:33] <CaptHindsight> very handy
[20:45:11] <CaptHindsight> or one that mutes the sound on the car stereo next to you in traffic
[20:45:30] <Tom_itx> then kills it's ignition
[20:50:56] <jdh> s/ignition/driver/
[20:51:41] <Tom_itx> hah!
[20:58:28] <Valen> I think those are called EMP guns ;-P
[20:58:47] <Valen> I have always wanted to strap a tesla coil to the roof of a car and drive down the highway
[21:11:01] <Jymmm> Valen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2wBLgONB8
[21:11:46] <Jymmm> better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUOuu34TqF8
[21:12:29] <Jymmm> Valen: MASSIVELY LOUD, just radiates thru the whole store
[21:14:09] <malcom2073> Not a microphone in the world that will do tesla coils justice
[21:14:48] <Jymmm> I like how they have a neon sign just sitting in there not conected to anything =)
[21:19:40] <Valen> guy next door keeps complaining of ADSL line dropping out and nobody can work out why? ;-P
[21:20:15] <Jymmm> oh it's SERIOUSLY grounded with faraday cage
[21:21:09] <Jymmm> I dont think I've ever seen 1" ground cables before
[21:23:01] <Tom_itx> maybe the lawyers insisted
[21:30:47] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT5EJYY_6HQ short range emp
[21:32:14] <CaptHindsight> only available to mil/law?
[21:33:46] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ibssigma.com/en/products/eureka-aerospace-high-power-electromagnetic-system-hpems-immobilizer Request a Quote
[21:34:17] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ibssigma.com/images/products/eureka-aerospace-high-power-electromagnetic-system-hpems-immobilizer/eureka-aerospace-hpems-immobilizer.jpg it looked smaller in the video :)
[21:36:07] <malcom2073> Heh, I remember seeing that on the science channel
[21:39:06] <zeeshan> pcw_home: you around?
[21:39:24] * zeeshan needs your expertise
[21:39:54] <pcw_home> Yeah
[21:40:44] <zeeshan> i need help with an algorithm
[21:40:50] <zeeshan> i think you know :)
[21:42:20] <pcw_home> Algol Rhythm
[21:42:21] <pcw_home> Algol Music
[21:42:23] <pcw_home> Algol My girl
[21:42:24] <pcw_home> Who could ask for anything more?
[21:42:33] <zeeshan> haha
[21:42:38] <zeeshan> dude so i have all this stuff interfaced
[21:42:41] <zeeshan> 2 solenoids that let air in and out
[21:43:08] <zeeshan> and temperature set point ability for environmental chamber and feedback from chamber for process value (current temp)
[21:43:20] <zeeshan> im trying to figure out the best way to control it in the code now
[21:43:49] <zeeshan> i was thinking of having two functions, one for pressure_control and one for temperature_control
[21:44:06] <zeeshan> so if i called pressure_control(5,0.25)
[21:44:16] <zeeshan> target is 5psi, and it'll do it .25psi/min
[21:44:50] <zeeshan> in pressure_control it'd turn each solenoid on and off to maintain that..
[21:45:02] <zeeshan> (this is where things get blurry for me)
[21:45:03] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: you any good at troubleshooting weird efi problems? between 1000 and 1500 rpm, the car misses at wide open throttle. below and above those rpms it works. replacing all ignition components made no difference, even though it feels like a secondary ignition problem.
[21:45:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: that is a transition point from idle to part throttle
[21:45:33] <zeeshan> it might be something to do with idle
[21:45:53] <furrywolf> except it's firing the exact same injectors, reading the exact same maf sensor, etc...
[21:46:05] <pcw_home> one soleneoid is high pressure source and one is low?
[21:46:28] <zeeshan> pcw_home: one solenoid has line pressure of 50psi on it and other side connects to chamber
[21:46:37] <zeeshan> the second solenoid connects to chamber and other port is vent to atmosphere
[21:46:49] <furrywolf> get another pid controller? :)
[21:46:49] <zeeshan> i'd like to keep a 1psi deadband between the two
[21:47:12] <zeeshan> furrywolf: honestly, im pretty useless at diagnosing cards without a wideband
[21:47:23] <zeeshan> with a wideband you'd see right away if its going too lean or too rich
[21:47:45] <zeeshan> lean likely means you got some issue with the stepper motor/servo sticking
[21:47:48] <pcw_home> right so since they are not metering valves the need some scheme like PWM for proportional control
[21:47:54] <pcw_home> they need
[21:47:57] <furrywolf> ... what stepper motor/servo? lol
[21:48:07] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you said efi! i assumed
[21:48:07] <furrywolf> it has a butterfly, and fuel injectors.
[21:48:17] <furrywolf> the butterfly has a cable connected to it.
[21:48:24] <zeeshan> pcw_home: by pwm control you mean
[21:48:36] <zeeshan> i can turn on solenoid a for 0.1 sec and shut it off for 0.5s
[21:48:41] <zeeshan> and monitor pressure
[21:48:51] <zeeshan> if pressure isn't what it is, then i do the same?
[21:49:22] <pcw_home> Hmm wonder why my wife says I have to go outside if it practice playing my goodwill trumpet
[21:49:37] <zeeshan> haha
[21:50:11] <furrywolf> lol
[21:50:22] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: what part of efi involves steppers or servos? heh
[21:50:29] <zeeshan> the idle air control motor
[21:50:48] <zeeshan> i dont know what it is on the subaru
[21:50:53] <zeeshan> i know on the mitsu it was stepper
[21:50:56] <zeeshan> on the nissan 240 its a solenoid
[21:51:01] <pcw_home> No I meant that for proportional control your PID output (which is proportional to the error and error rate) controls a PWM signal; to the valve)
[21:51:09] <furrywolf> it's a servo of some variety, however it is utterly irrelevant when the 2.something inch throttle butterfly is wide open.
[21:51:18] <furrywolf> also, all it does is let air past the throttle butterfly.
[21:52:29] <zeeshan> pwm confuses me
[21:52:32] <pcw_home> how much air volume is in the chamber?
[21:52:38] <zeeshan> not much
[21:52:55] <zeeshan> to give you a feel for it
[21:53:03] <zeeshan> when i manually trigger the inlet solenoid on and off
[21:53:05] <zeeshan> within say 0.5s
[21:53:07] <furrywolf> it behaves just like an ignition issue... at full throttle it misses (sometimes completely - no cylinders firing at all), if you let off the throttle a bit it starts to catch, if you let off more it runs fine. same for as the rpms rise - it runs better until it runs perfectly around 1500rpm.
[21:53:19] <zeeshan> the pressure only jumps by 0.4psi
[21:53:29] <zeeshan> with a line pressure of 15psi.
[21:53:46] <zeeshan> furrywolf: that sounds a lot like going lean
[21:53:56] <furrywolf> yes, but I can't figure out WHY.
[21:54:08] <pcw_home> OK so should be pretty easy any maybe OK with just bang-bang control
[21:54:17] <pcw_home> and maybe
[21:54:45] <furrywolf> it's not a maf issue, as other combinations of throttle and rpm that would give the same airflow (like half throttle at twice the rpm) work perfectly...
[21:54:58] <furrywolf> it's not a fuel supply issue, as you use less fuel at low rpms like that...
[21:56:40] <zeeshan> with bang bang control, assuming 5psi target, 1psi/min, i would basically go "inlet solenoid on for 0.1s" - monitor pressure "is it the correct amount?") , yes-> turn it on again for 0.1s
[21:56:50] <furrywolf> and... I'm out of ideas.
[21:57:20] <furrywolf> do PID control where the output is the length of time until the next measurement
[21:57:23] <pcw_home> bang bang is just two comparators to try
[21:57:25] <pcw_home> so if pressure < setpoint -.5 PSI open inlet solenoaid
[21:57:26] <pcw_home> and if pressure > setpoint +.5 PSI open outlet solenoid
[21:57:48] <zeeshan> but the thing is i wanna control the rate too..
[21:57:49] <furrywolf> that way if you want a big pressure change, it'll run the solenoid on for a while, rather than cycling needlessly.
[21:58:03] <zeeshan> i wanna increase it only say 1psi/min
[21:58:14] <zeeshan> so i need to sample it at least once every second
[21:58:19] <pcw_home> then you need the PWM
[21:58:38] <zeeshan> pwm confuses me because in that case
[21:58:44] <zeeshan> wouldn't you be opening the inlet solenoid a LOT?
[21:59:01] <zeeshan> or would you keep the on duration say 10ms
[21:59:04] <furrywolf> you need to adjust your setpoint slowly, then let the control loop make it happen. you don't want to change the setpoint suddenly then make the control loop deal with doing it slowly.
[21:59:40] <zeeshan> can you guys guide me on what to search for
[21:59:46] <zeeshan> "PWM Control of a solenoid"?
[21:59:52] <zeeshan> would give relevant stuff?
[22:00:11] <furrywolf> say have a timer every second that changes your setpoint by changeperminute/60 until it reaches the final setpoint.
[22:00:38] <pcw_home> Yeah rate control is via the setpoint ramping
[22:00:56] <zeeshan> can't i do setpoint ramping and use bangbang control?
[22:01:17] <furrywolf> I'd make the control system a basic PID or PI system, with the output being the length of time to run the solenoid for.
[22:01:22] <furrywolf> then tune it like any other loop
[22:01:40] <pcw_home> Yes, it should work, proportinal woudl be needed for more accuarate control and to avoid overshoot
[22:01:41] <furrywolf> (target pressure - current pressure) * P would be a good start.
[22:01:51] <zeeshan> the thing is
[22:01:53] <zeeshan> if i do it very slowly
[22:01:58] <zeeshan> wouldn't i minimize overshoot?
[22:01:59] <furrywolf> where a larger P results in a longer solenoid open time before measuring again.
[22:02:00] <furrywolf> yes
[22:02:03] <pcw_home> yes
[22:02:09] <furrywolf> which is why using just P or PI might work well.
[22:02:24] <zeeshan> why is P or PI control better than bang bang
[22:02:37] <furrywolf> "bang bang" is a pretty nonspecific description.
[22:02:50] <furrywolf> "bang bang" is a poorly tuned P loop. :)
[22:03:14] <zeeshan> well to me bang bang other than the sexual context is the fact that you have a setpoint , then you check if you've met that set point
[22:03:28] <pcw_home> well for a first order system bang-bang worked well
[22:03:35] <pcw_home> works
[22:03:55] <pcw_home> it has severe overshhot for second order systems
[22:04:01] <zeeshan> the only thing is, if the setpoint is not met, do you try to add a lot more pressure
[22:04:23] <pcw_home> the valve is on until the setpoint is met
[22:04:23] <zeeshan> or do you just blindly keep adding the same amount
[22:04:37] <furrywolf> that's why you use a P loop... if you only need a little more pressure, you only run the solenoid very briefly. if you need a lot more pressure, you run the solenoid longer.
[22:04:55] <zeeshan> okay then simple proportional control will be okay then
[22:05:08] <zeeshan> as long as my general ramping of target setpoint
[22:05:09] <zeeshan> is slow
[22:05:09] <pcw_home> what pressure accuaracy do you require?
[22:05:14] <zeeshan> .5psi would be nice
[22:05:22] <furrywolf> for an accurate pressure, an I term is helpful too.
[22:05:23] <zeeshan> my pressure transducer accuracy is only 0.1psi
[22:05:40] <furrywolf> especially with a very slowly changing setpoint
[22:06:06] <zeeshan> with I , what is physically happening
[22:06:06] <zeeshan> i get P
[22:06:41] <zeeshan> control systems are confusing :P
[22:06:42] <furrywolf> I says "it's been off the setpoint for too long". it's P with a time factor added.
[22:06:46] <zeeshan> but i think after implementing one
[22:06:49] <zeeshan> ill have a good understanding
[22:07:31] <zeeshan> well didnt you say that was P?
[22:07:34] <furrywolf> I helps with making sure you end up at the exact setpoint rather than just under/over it.
[22:07:42] <pcw_home> I suspect for .5 PSI accuracy (~.5 seconds vavle time) bang-bang would be fine
[22:07:43] <pcw_home> since your control loop will be much faster
[22:08:07] <zeeshan> if target is 0.5psi, and current value is 0.1psi
[22:08:18] <zeeshan> P would be like "listen you had to be at 0.5psi 5 seconds ago!"
[22:08:29] <zeeshan> open the valve for x amount
[22:09:18] <furrywolf> I is "you're pretty close, but you're not quite getting there, and it's been that way for a while... open the valve more"
[22:09:18] <zeeshan> when you say control loop
[22:09:27] <zeeshan> are you referring to the feedback from thje pressure transducer?
[22:09:46] <zeeshan> okay so thats why they say
[22:09:49] <pcw_home> Yes and how fast the valve reacts to the control signal
[22:09:50] <zeeshan> I works using accumulated error
[22:09:54] <furrywolf> control loop is, as its name implies, a loop. software -> valves -> transducer -> software...
[22:11:03] <zeeshan> i think i need to review m y control book again
[22:11:11] <zeeshan> i need to revise t he basic definitions
[22:11:11] <furrywolf> no, you need to write code.
[22:11:26] <furrywolf> you could have had it working by now. :P
[22:11:31] <zeeshan> lol
[22:12:15] <pcw_home> try the bang-bang first, thats PID with just P and infinite gain
[22:12:59] <zeeshan> so 0.5 target, 0.1 actual , what would be the valve opening time?
[22:13:04] <zeeshan> take that as an example
[22:13:44] <pcw_home> until pressure rises to .5 ...
[22:14:01] <zeeshan> lol
[22:14:32] <furrywolf> proportional = set_pressure - current_pressure; integral += proportional; valve_time = proportional * P + integral * I; if(valve_time > deadband || valve_time < -deadband) if(valve_time > 0) turn_on_pressure(valve_time); else turn_on_vent(-valve_time);
[22:16:17] <furrywolf> where P and I are in units of milliseconds per psi, and valve_time and deadband in milliseconds.
[22:16:29] <zeeshan> those are things to tune
[22:16:29] <zeeshan> yea?
[22:16:32] <furrywolf> yes
[22:16:58] <pcw_home> minimum solenoid on/ off time is probably 50 ms or so
[22:17:01] <furrywolf> start with I as 0 so it ignores it, and make sure your deadband is larger than the solenoid response time.
[22:17:28] <furrywolf> now, there's a whole shitload of math involved in making PID loops theoretically perfect... skip that and play with the numbers until it works well. :P
[22:17:41] <zeeshan> thsi only captures one solenoid
[22:17:54] <Jymmm> "tune" a solenoid ?¿
[22:18:35] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: ?
[22:18:41] <Jymmm> apply power, remove power. what more is there?
[22:18:41] <zeeshan> this is the inlet solenoid
[22:18:42] <furrywolf> captures a solenoid?
[22:18:53] <zeeshan> if overshoot happens
[22:18:54] <furrywolf> my pseudocode works both solenoids
[22:19:02] <zeeshan> the outlet solenoid needs to turn on only in that situation
[22:19:07] <Jymmm> ignore me
[22:19:20] <furrywolf> Jymmm: I think that was our plan already.
[22:19:31] <zeeshan> lol
[22:19:37] <Jymmm> furrywolf: did you say something?
[22:20:57] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: if the result is positive, turn on the pressure solenoid, if the result is negative, turn on the vent solenoid.
[22:21:05] <furrywolf> make sure the deadband applies to both.
[22:21:10] <furrywolf> I think my pseudocode works. :P
[22:21:14] <zeeshan> there has to be a deadband in pressure though
[22:21:28] <zeeshan> to stop them from fighting with each other
[22:21:32] <zeeshan> when the setpoint is close
[22:21:35] <zeeshan> to actual
[22:23:22] <furrywolf> my code has a deadpoint on time... with an I factor it may slowly cycle between very quick solenoid actuations. you could specify a separate pressure deadband to prevent this. if(proportional < deadband && proportional > -deadband) don't do anything.
[22:23:23] * zeeshan reads book
[22:23:46] <zeeshan> you understand it
[22:23:47] <zeeshan> i dont
[22:23:53] <zeeshan> i need to approach it slowly :)
[22:24:27] <furrywolf> probably make it not update the integral term would be easiest... if(proportional > pressuredeadband || proportional < -pressuredeadband) integral += proportional;
[22:24:39] <furrywolf> this way it won't slowly cycle as long as the pressure is close enough.
[22:25:47] <furrywolf> and set pressuredeadband to maybe 0.05psi.
[22:26:08] <zeeshan> the pressure sensor
[22:26:17] <zeeshan> fluctuates by +/-0.1 psi
[22:26:22] <zeeshan> so it has to be more than that i'd think
[22:26:29] <zeeshan> around 0.3psi
[22:26:36] <zeeshan> overall resolution is only .5psi
[22:26:43] <furrywolf> ok, so .2psi then.... but if it's just noise, you could lowpass your pressure sensor.
[22:28:05] <zeeshan> thats a good idea
[22:28:09] <zeeshan> i should be filtering it
[22:28:35] <zeeshan> the problem with not using linuxcnc is
[22:28:40] <zeeshan> i dont have the fancy builtin lowpass filters!
[22:28:44] <zeeshan> and halSCOPE! :(
[22:29:42] <furrywolf> filteredpressure = filteredpressure * (1 - tweakablefactor) + currentpressure * tweakablefactor;
[22:32:31] <zeeshan> https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/fp/Definition_Simplest_Low_Pass.html
[22:32:32] <zeeshan> ah
[22:33:29] <XXCoder> woot
[22:33:38] <XXCoder> got my cnc router motor mounts milled!
[22:33:42] <XXCoder> fits well now
[22:33:45] <furrywolf> geee, doesn't that say EXACTLY WHAT I SAID? :P
[22:34:03] <zeeshan> i need to se where it comes from
[22:34:07] <zeeshan> not just you telling me it! :P
[22:34:26] <zeeshan> furrywolf: its like you asking me
[22:34:29] <zeeshan> how much will this beam deflect
[22:34:30] <furrywolf> hrmm, actually, no, that doesn't. they're using an array and averaging over the array.
[22:34:31] <zeeshan> and i tell you
[22:34:41] <zeeshan> y= Lx^4/IE
[22:34:52] <zeeshan> :P
[22:35:17] <furrywolf> a trivial running filter like I gave is much simpler
[22:35:33] <furrywolf> for your situation where you're doing something repeatedly over time
[22:36:14] <furrywolf> also, I removed the s from https, and it fucking redirected me back to https!
[22:37:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vox.com/2015/6/28/8857415/cnn-isis-dildo-gay-pride-flag - heh
[22:38:54] <furrywolf> that page isn't loading properly.
[22:39:00] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: heh
[22:39:09] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: It's quite picture heavy
[22:39:11] <cradek> that's amazing
[22:39:19] <XXCoder> cnn and certain faux news is worth crap
[22:39:33] <furrywolf> AND it has a fucking bar across the top that breaks scrolling
[22:39:40] * furrywolf never visits vox.com again
[22:39:52] <XXCoder> no bar here
[22:39:56] <XXCoder> but same time I use noscript
[22:40:00] <SpeedEvil> Nor here
[22:40:01] <SpeedEvil> I don't
[22:41:22] <furrywolf> I have a 3/4" tall white bar saying Vox on it.
[22:41:32] <zeeshan> whats a QUICK way to upload 1 simple file from terminal
[22:41:33] <furrywolf> slightly tansparent, maybe 85% opacity
[22:41:38] <zeeshan> using ssh
[22:41:42] <furrywolf> upload to what?
[22:41:47] <zeeshan> to my comp
[22:41:50] <zeeshan> i wanna throw it in matlab
[22:41:51] <zeeshan> see the graph
[22:41:57] <zeeshan> i logged the voltage
[22:42:01] <furrywolf> scp furryporn.jpg whatever:yiff/
[22:42:31] <furrywolf> s/whatever/wherever
[22:42:40] <zeeshan> hopefully this works over a tunnel
[22:42:51] <XXCoder> yiff yiff
[22:42:52] <XXCoder> :P
[22:43:00] <furrywolf> don't have spaces or other special characters in the file or path name. scp's handling of them is broken as fuck.
[22:44:08] * furrywolf gives up on loading that page
[22:44:12] <zeeshan> wtf
[22:44:17] <zeeshan> asking me my password!
[22:44:54] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: thanks for article, definitely funny
[22:44:58] <XXCoder> cnn what a joke.
[22:45:28] <XXCoder> thats what happens when news bends over for certain people. they get fucked!
[22:49:27] <furrywolf> it's cnn... sex toys are probably just as evil as arabs to them.
[22:49:45] <furrywolf> keep in mind alabama still has a ban on sex toys because they're so evil.
[22:50:45] <XXCoder> isis flag + dilios and plugs = double evil!!!
[22:51:24] <XXCoder> its about fake isis flag at gay pride, it looks kinda same but had dilios plugs son on making words
[22:51:34] <XXCoder> nobody was fooled
[22:51:39] <XXCoder> that is except cnn
[22:51:43] <furrywolf> yes. I googled and found another article on a functional website about it.
[22:52:13] <Jymmm> georgia too
[22:52:28] <Jymmm> you can not get a Sears catalog in GAbecuae they sell bras
[22:52:41] <Jymmm> and thats porngraphic
[22:52:42] <furrywolf> and, amazingly, I don't own most of those toys. :P
[22:52:52] <Jymmm> ...yet
[22:54:13] <furrywolf> nah, most of them I think are either fictional or aimed at gay men...
[22:54:48] <Jymmm> fictional toys, and non fictional price tags
[22:55:13] <furrywolf> yep. toys are very expensive. :(
[22:55:35] <XXCoder> lathe
[22:55:42] <Jymmm> just plastidip your 220v jackhammer
[22:55:55] <furrywolf> good ones, at least.
[22:56:15] <Jymmm> keep dipping till desired diamteter
[22:56:32] <XXCoder> 3d printer :P
[22:56:45] <Jymmm> so it can delaminate?
[22:57:09] <furrywolf> we've had the 3d-printing-not-suitable-for-sex-toys discussion before.
[22:58:10] <Jymmm> hawt damn! Found a HDPE fabrication guide!
[23:02:10] <XXCoder> lol
[23:03:23] <Jymmm> XXCoder: ?
[23:04:01] <XXCoder> that was to fur jy
[23:04:51] <Jymmm> XXCoder: if you know the temps for welding hdpe, please let me know
[23:05:03] <furrywolf> "until it melts"
[23:05:26] <XXCoder> I do know it. exactly the melting temp of hdpe. ;)
[23:05:31] <Jymmm> furrywolf: BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, but thanks for playing!
[23:05:42] <Jymmm> XXCoder: and for bending?
[23:05:51] <Jymmm> and vacum forming?
[23:05:53] <XXCoder> less but not that far less
[23:06:04] <XXCoder> nice generic nonanswer answer lol
[23:06:34] <Jymmm> XXCoder: it jumps from 260f to 750 depending
[23:08:13] <Jymmm> Hey, that's an idea.... collect all the giant recycling bins and turn them into swamp coolers =)
[23:09:07] * Jymmm looks up "temp to melt off "City of _________" embossed printing"
[23:10:10] <Jymmm> imported from beverley hills
[23:10:19] <zeeshan> furrywolf: still there?
[23:10:21] <zeeshan> Lol
[23:10:23] <furrywolf> homeless people here steal them to sleep in
[23:10:31] <zeeshan> remember we were talking about noise? ;-)
[23:10:45] <furrywolf> your sensors or jymmm?
[23:11:40] <zeeshan> mine
[23:11:42] <zeeshan> i just plotted out the log
[23:11:47] <zeeshan> (wow plots REALLY do help)
[23:11:48] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/iRKRjEy.png
[23:11:49] <XXCoder> Jymmm: lol
[23:11:57] <XXCoder> it will go great till caught
[23:12:28] <zeeshan> sure as hell looks like noise to me!
[23:12:37] <furrywolf> yep
[23:13:47] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I got you a present... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP2ZDZO
[23:13:48] <zeeshan> the filter code you posted
[23:13:52] <zeeshan> what type of filter is that?
[23:14:06] <furrywolf> don't remember the name
[23:15:23] <zeeshan> im just gonna use an averaging filter
[23:16:50] <os1r1s> Does anyone know if the bbb based linuxcnc variants (machinekit) support usb/ethernet mesa cards?
[23:17:59] <pcw_home> Not sure (USB is a non starter though)
[23:18:16] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Why?
[23:18:31] <pcw_home> non real time
[23:18:55] <os1r1s> pcw_home: So the 7i43h won't work with linuxcnc?
[23:19:27] <pcw_home> nope (well not for motion anyway)
[23:20:01] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Gotcha. Thanks for that catch :)
[23:35:07] <XXCoder> this guy is idiot http://www.newscaststudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/peacock.png
[23:36:29] <XXCoder> http://www.newscaststudio.com/2015/06/27/view-mistakes-nbc-peacock-for-gay-pride-avatar/
[23:48:14] <os1r1s> pcw_home: What is "uspace" realtime?