#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-06-13

[00:02:02] <zeeshan|2> abck
[00:03:02] <furrywolf> and I'm off to bed. bbl.
[00:03:26] <furrywolf> I'll tell you all the reasons ball hones suck tomorrow. they've made it pretty far up on my list of tools that shouldn't exist. possibly the top of it.
[00:03:36] <zeeshan|2> lol
[00:14:44] <englishman> i concur, bottle brush is junk
[02:03:00] <Crom> anyone floating away in Ohio yet?
[02:03:18] <Crom> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqDVersUDHM
[02:08:12] <Deejay> moin
[02:50:09] <MrSunshine> hmm would a pc card parport card work for nc applications or is pc card buffered somehow so it wont work ?
[02:50:21] <MrSunshine> (the data buffered i mean then)
[02:50:50] <MrSunshine> tho i guess a laptop is crap anyhow for nc applications? =)
[03:08:57] <archivist> some pc cards are perfect others using particular chips not
[03:28:44] <MrSunshine> ahh
[03:28:50] <MrSunshine> that sucks =)
[05:10:56] <XXCoder> lol
[05:11:06] <XXCoder> a fan listing brags its made from abs
[05:11:17] <XXCoder> really? must be really shitty if its bragging what its made from
[05:56:10] <XXCoder> gonna get myself one of those http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-Wireless-USB-MPG-Pendant-Handwheel-Mach3-For-CNC-Mac-Mach-3-4-axis/32283267897.html
[07:56:03] <JT-Shop> dang Xchat quit working
[07:56:50] <archivist> is it on wandaz?
[07:57:01] <JT-Shop> wheezy
[07:57:20] <JT-Shop> tells me couldn't look up your hostname and no ident response
[07:57:40] <archivist> shut it down restart it...fixes that bug
[07:58:21] <archivist> I think it comes from a poisoned dns cache somewhere
[07:58:41] <JT-Shop> it looks like it is trying again now
[07:59:12] <JT-Shop> nope still broken
[07:59:27] <archivist> gets stuck in the retry loop, kill it restart
[07:59:40] <JT-Shop> ok
[08:00:12] <archivist> been doing that for years :)
[08:29:05] <JT-Shop> hmm Smuxi gives me the same error
[08:33:41] <archivist> has your ISP changed the DNS ip addresses, I have had that happen
[08:58:30] <JT-Shop> a bunch of booting seemed to fix it
[09:18:59] <Tom_itx> i think i was having issues with xchat on wheezy as well
[09:19:31] <Tom_itx> it was on the test ssd so it's hard to say what it was
[09:43:02] <Tom_itx> pcw_home?
[10:14:41] <zeeshan|2> PCW !! :P
[10:14:48] <zeeshan|2> JT-Shop: !!!
[10:18:58] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2!!!!
[10:19:12] <archivist> who!!!!!
[10:20:31] <zeeshan|2> wake up!! :P
[10:20:43] * zeeshan|2 needs help with selecting electronics for cnc plasma
[10:21:03] <Tom_itx> 5i25 stepper combo
[10:21:14] <zeeshan|2> we already have breakout board and stuff
[10:21:18] <zeeshan|2> and stepper drivers
[10:21:19] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2 select round ones
[10:21:29] <zeeshan|2> im just confused on how thcad interfaces
[10:21:45] <zeeshan|2> both these guys have forum posts discussing it, but not from the start
[10:22:05] <Tom_itx> did you check JT's page?
[10:22:09] <zeeshan|2> yea
[10:22:14] <zeeshan|2> useful after you know what you're doing
[10:22:20] <zeeshan|2> not before :P
[10:22:41] * Tom_itx gives zeeshan|2 a tricycle
[10:22:58] * zeeshan|2 drives into wall
[10:23:19] <archivist> give him a unicycle for more lols
[10:24:04] * zeeshan|2 shoves archivist's rear
[10:24:10] <zeeshan|2> with the unicycle!
[10:25:11] <Tom_itx> http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma.xhtml
[10:25:17] <zeeshan|2> yes
[10:25:22] <zeeshan|2> but he has no schematics on his electronics
[10:25:39] <zeeshan|2> i'm confused about how thc works
[10:26:33] <archivist> iirc measures the arc voltage and compensates by changing z
[10:27:09] <zeeshan|2> so you basically feed the torch through the thcad
[10:27:25] <zeeshan|2> which generates a frequency proportional to voltage, which then goes to a mesa encoder input
[10:27:38] <zeeshan|2> and that converts it into a voltage again?
[10:28:04] <archivist> linuxcnc fiddles the height
[10:28:19] <archivist> or can do, there are various methods
[10:29:00] <zeeshan|2> how does the torch not crash into the work piece
[10:29:37] <archivist> because the offset can never be above a certain value I think
[10:30:41] <zeeshan|2> so the only additional component needed is a thcad card
[10:30:41] <zeeshan|2> thats it.
[10:30:56] <zeeshan|2> we got this entire machine at the hackerspace.
[10:31:07] <zeeshan|2> it had 36 stepper motors
[10:31:09] <zeeshan|2> all with encoders
[10:31:19] <zeeshan|2> 2 glass scales (which i took for my lathe)
[10:31:34] <zeeshan|2> a shit load of ball screws and linear rails
[10:31:45] <Tom_itx> send me some ballscrews
[10:31:55] <zeeshan|2> they are small ball screws
[10:31:58] <zeeshan|2> 8" (useless)
[10:32:05] <zeeshan|2> the thompson linear rails are more useful
[10:32:06] <archivist> I like small
[10:32:08] <zeeshan|2> 36" long
[10:32:30] <zeeshan|2> we are converting it to a plasma cutter
[10:32:32] <archivist> just right for small measuring machine
[10:32:41] <zeeshan|2> itll have about 40"x16" of travel
[10:32:43] * Jymmm sends Tom_itx 1000 20lb balls COD... NOW you're screwed ;)
[10:33:00] <zeeshan|2> all components have dates "2009" on them
[10:33:04] <zeeshan|2> so it's not a really old machine
[10:33:10] <zeeshan|2> i dont know why universities throw away machines like this
[10:33:40] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: no immediate use.
[10:33:43] <Tom_itx> ones that get fed grant money
[10:33:44] <SpeedEvil> Or the grant has ended
[10:33:49] <zeeshan|2> they should just give it to me
[10:33:55] <SpeedEvil> If you have a grant, you have grant money
[10:33:56] <zeeshan|2> ive sourced so much stuff from the dumpster so far
[10:33:56] <zeeshan|2> lol
[10:34:12] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: and when you get it, you should just give it to us
[10:34:15] <SpeedEvil> It does not directly help you to have old equipment which can do what you want, when you can purchase new
[10:34:18] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/3EjFA7Z.jpg
[10:34:21] <zeeshan|2> im trhwoing up these on ebay
[10:34:30] <zeeshan|2> i have 20 of these
[10:34:41] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/JvGhcp0.jpg
[10:34:42] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/qWfEBht.jpg
[10:34:45] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: what motors/size?
[10:35:05] <zeeshan|2> they are 2.5A steppers
[10:35:09] <zeeshan|2> by lin engineering
[10:35:11] <Jymmm> NEMA23?
[10:35:15] <zeeshan|2> yes
[10:35:20] <Jymmm> PN ?
[10:35:26] <zeeshan|2> that i dont have on me righ tnow
[10:37:06] <aventtini> nice motors
[10:37:08] <aventtini> :d
[10:38:50] <zeeshan|2> hopefully we can raise enough money to get a MESA 5i25 + 7i76 + thcad
[10:38:54] <zeeshan|2> thats all that is missing i think.
[10:48:39] * Loetmichel just ordered a new mainboard for the CNC cpu at the company
[10:49:08] <Loetmichel> athon x2 6400 -> core2 duo 2,93ghz
[10:49:16] <Loetmichel> and i wuill install 4gbn of ram there
[10:49:31] <Loetmichel> that should be sufficient to uopgrade to the latest liveCD
[10:49:46] <Loetmichel> becaue my machine still runs the ubuntuy 10.04 based system
[10:49:51] <Loetmichel> ... at least i hope so
[10:50:09] * JT-MOBILE needs a better motherboard for the wheezy computer
[10:50:53] <Loetmichel> already remodeled the Fujuzu desktop case to accomdate the new (mini-itx) mobo ;-)=
[10:51:54] <Loetmichel> this one has no atx mainboard inside, so i had to dremel and mill a bit ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14148&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[10:52:25] <Loetmichel> (the box below the blue 4 axis controller)
[10:53:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14118&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- bit of a wiring chaos tho ;)
[10:53:29] <Tom_itx> JT-MOBILE, don't txt n drive !
[10:53:43] <zeeshan|2> JT-MOBILE: halp!!
[10:53:54] <JT-MOBILE> I'm riding
[10:56:54] <JT-MOBILE> zeeshan what's up
[10:57:08] <zeeshan|2> i was wondering if you have any electrical schematics for your plasma cutter
[10:57:15] <JT-MOBILE> Hmm no tab key on a phone
[10:57:18] <zeeshan|2> i really need to see the big picture
[10:57:52] <zeeshan|2> i think some of you guys might appreciate this picture
[10:58:08] <zeeshan|2> for some reason when i was doing this test in the lab it reminded me of the sphere movie
[10:58:14] <zeeshan|2> this thing was at like 40 psi pressure
[10:58:17] <zeeshan|2> and i was poking it haha
[10:58:19] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/kx4jotj.jpg
[10:58:44] <JT-MOBILE> On my Web site
[10:58:44] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: http://previews.123rf.com/images/72soul/72soul1209/72soul120900054/15327862-Illustration-depicting-a-roadsign-with--Stock-Illustration-picture-big-clarity.jpg
[10:59:16] <zeeshan|2> JT-MOBILE: you have all the configuration files
[10:59:20] <zeeshan|2> but no electrical schematics
[10:59:26] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[10:59:57] <zeeshan|2> also no pics of electrical cabinet :(
[11:00:23] <JT-MOBILE> Not much to the electric it's all in a pc case
[11:00:36] <zeeshan|2> how does the thc interface?
[11:00:39] <zeeshan|2> are you using thcad?
[11:00:45] <zeeshan|2> and using thc.9 component
[11:02:11] * cpresser is finally making progress with the scara robot arm: https://imgur.com/a/hMXxF
[11:02:30] <cpresser> welding the part didnt work, so i had to glue it with reinforcement
[11:02:32] <zeeshan|2> nice!
[11:02:41] <zeeshan|2> is that aluminum?
[11:02:47] <cpresser> cast aluminium
[11:02:50] <zeeshan|2> send it to me
[11:03:00] <zeeshan|2> speciality of mine haha
[11:03:11] <zeeshan|2> (too late you already glued it)
[11:03:33] <cpresser> i had two 'specialists' fuck it up.
[11:03:53] <cpresser> you can see the welding marks on the first picture.
[11:04:13] <zeeshan|2> cpresser i work with a lot of cast aluminum
[11:04:22] <zeeshan|2> cause it's 90% of car stuff now
[11:04:26] <zeeshan|2> from intercooler end tanks
[11:04:33] <zeeshan|2> to transmission housings to intake manifolds
[11:04:39] <zeeshan|2> to oil pans
[11:05:06] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/KOjtGim.jpg
[11:05:10] <zeeshan|2> this is as ugly as it will get
[11:05:19] <zeeshan|2> (this was my oil pan which was exposed to oil)
[11:05:25] <zeeshan|2> it's super hard to weld it
[11:05:30] <zeeshan|2> but got it done :p
[11:05:48] <cpresser> i guess nothing beats experience :)
[11:06:22] <zeeshan|2> i would think the arm would be easier because it never saw coolant or oil
[11:07:45] <cpresser> the first guy i asked to do it didnt even bother to test the material (there are a few places on the part where i dont mind welding fuckup). he started welding at point where it broke. and fucked it totally up
[11:08:01] <zeeshan|2> =/
[11:08:11] <cpresser> now I am thinking to learn welding myself :)
[11:08:29] <zeeshan|2> i would, it's an important skill
[11:08:31] <Tom_itx> don't start with aluminum or stainless...
[11:08:35] <zeeshan|2> fu!
[11:08:37] <zeeshan|2> start with aluminum
[11:08:43] <norias> lol
[11:08:48] <zeeshan|2> thats how i started
[11:08:53] <zeeshan|2> it gives you the rhythm
[11:08:59] <zeeshan|2> and will quickly show you u're doing it wrong
[11:09:07] <zeeshan|2> if you start with steel, you'll form habits you'll never recover from
[11:09:12] <zeeshan|2> or will take a long time to get rid of the habit
[11:09:38] <zeeshan|2> i still to this day hold the torch like i did the first day i held it
[11:09:40] <cpresser> would you recommend searching a tutor, or is wachting youtube videos sufficient?
[11:09:43] <zeeshan|2> (it's not completely right)
[11:09:51] <zeeshan|2> cpresser if you have a friend
[11:09:53] <archivist> aluminium mig is completely different to steel stick
[11:09:59] <zeeshan|2> just watch them lay down beads
[11:10:01] <JT-MOBILE> Zeeshan I'll get back later
[11:10:07] <zeeshan|2> jthornton: thanks!
[11:10:21] <zeeshan|2> you need to see how they hold the torch, how the weld puddle forms, and how they move the filler and torch
[11:10:24] <Tom_itx> is there a rule of thumb for gas pressure?
[11:10:27] <archivist> cpresser, helps to watch a good welder a few times
[11:10:31] <JT-MOBILE> Shopping from a to z lol
[11:10:42] <zeeshan|2> not that i know of, i use the miller calculator
[11:10:46] <zeeshan|2> but usually 20cfh works
[11:11:08] <Tom_itx> i want enough but don't want to waste it
[11:11:22] * cpresser is going to ask around if somebody can show me the basics
[11:11:54] <archivist> cpresser, here is the best stick vid I have seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFZ__4t7ck
[11:28:34] <Loetmichel> hmm.
[11:28:45] <Loetmichel> anyone knows where to get 1mm thick sticks for a stick welder?
[11:28:51] <Loetmichel> tio weld really thing sheet metal?
[11:29:10] <Loetmichel> i know, better to dat with MAG or TIG, but i wnat to test the limits ;)
[11:29:21] <Loetmichel> to... thin
[11:31:35] <Loetmichel> or lets ask the other way around: whats the thinnest sheet stee weld did you do with sticl?
[11:31:42] <Loetmichel> stick
[11:32:22] <Loetmichel> cpresser: you dont need a tutorm, but it makes the learning easier
[11:32:47] <Loetmichel> my first "thin stick welds" looked awful, but now i can weld 1mm sheet steel pretty well
[11:33:09] <Loetmichel> will try 0,5mm car sheet steel soon
[11:33:16] <Loetmichel> (as soon as i find 1mm sticks)
[11:33:55] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9181&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- first try in some 0,5mm carbon steel blades ;-)
[11:34:00] <Loetmichel> MAN what ugly ;-)
[11:34:09] <Loetmichel> no pics of the better welds tho ;-)
[11:34:54] <SpeedEvil> heatsink backing can hep
[11:35:04] <Loetmichel> copper plate on the back?
[11:35:33] <archivist> I glued my car last year to get it though the annual test used about 50 sticks
[11:35:41] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:36:28] <Loetmichel> i am pretty well used to a MAG
[11:36:39] <Loetmichel> but stick is something i am out of practice by far
[11:37:18] <archivist> too easy to burn holes with stick on thing sheet
[11:37:24] <archivist> thin
[11:37:27] <Loetmichel> i can use oxy-acytelene as well, works nicely on cars, too, especuially if you use brass rods and solder instead of welding
[11:37:56] <Loetmichel> never had the money to buy a tig tho
[11:38:40] <Loetmichel> eyeing a tig/mig/mag/stick/plasma torch set for about 2 years now, but 2kEur is a bit much for to be used about once a year
[11:38:50] <archivist> gas axe also is good for setting the car on fire
[11:39:09] <Loetmichel> archivist: that works well with stick or mag, too
[11:39:35] <Loetmichel> accidentally forgot to remove the carpet inside when welding the undercarriage from the outside once...
[11:39:38] <archivist> gas is far better for fire... dont ask how I know
[11:39:42] <Loetmichel> wanmst pretty what was left of the car
[11:39:48] <Loetmichel> wasnt
[11:40:19] <archivist> we used powder to put the carpet out on a car, what a mess
[11:40:31] <Loetmichel> since then i always have a c02 extinguisher handy when welding a rac
[11:40:33] <Loetmichel> car
[11:41:33] <Loetmichel> the stick inverter i am using atm is a cheap chinese one
[11:42:06] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9184&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- can do 80A ... so says the datasheed
[11:42:38] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9187&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- chinese are very confident for which size of wiring can hold 80A ;-)
[11:43:09] <Loetmichel> but besides that its surprisingly comforting to use that little thing
[11:44:22] <Loetmichel> put in a 1mm or 1,5mm stick, set it to 45A and go welding like a crazy... and its lightweight enough to have it sitting on the shoulder with its strap and the 230V extension cord clipped to your truusers belt while welding
[11:45:00] <Loetmichel> and it has a function to start the arc and one to prevent the stick from getting stuck
[11:45:18] <Loetmichel> MUCH improvement over a iron core transformer
[12:00:37] <JT-MOBILE> zeeshan I use the thcad card with the thc component
[12:01:15] <zeeshan|2> is that all that you need that interfaces between linuxcnc and the plasma cutter?
[12:01:24] <zeeshan|2> do you use a gpio for turning on the torch?
[12:01:52] <JT-MOBILE> My plasma has an arc ready output
[12:02:01] * zeeshan|2 checks mine
[12:02:43] <JT-MOBILE> I connect M3 to an output that goes to the torch
[12:03:44] <zeeshan|2> ok i have a rear socket that says "CNC"
[12:03:46] <zeeshan|2> it has 12 pins.
[12:04:02] <zeeshan|2> pin 1 is "start" pin 2 is "stop"
[12:04:40] <JT-MOBILE> Mine just has start
[12:04:49] <zeeshan|2> theres a buncha other stuff..
[12:05:05] <zeeshan|2> 1/16 or 1/50 divided arc voltage
[12:05:10] <zeeshan|2> 100k ohm in- series
[12:05:26] <zeeshan|2> pin 5 and 7 is undvided arc voltage. (raw)
[12:05:36] <zeeshan|2> "this is the actual cutting voltage"
[12:06:07] <zeeshan|2> wait since i have a 1/50 divided option, whats the point of thcad then?
[12:06:39] <JT-MOBILE> To get a frequency into lxnc
[12:08:23] <zeeshan|2> can you not just directly input a voltage? :D
[12:09:04] <JT-MOBILE> Only if you have an analog input
[12:09:06] <zeeshan|2> apparently my plasma cutter has the following specs:
[12:09:23] <zeeshan|2> @ 240v supply ac voltage, it does 50A at 100V
[12:09:35] <zeeshan|2> so 100/16 = 6.25V
[12:09:42] <zeeshan|2> can't you just feed that directly to the encoder inputs
[12:10:01] <zeeshan|2> i thought the 7i67 had an analog input
[12:10:06] <zeeshan|2> for spindle encoder
[12:10:08] <JT-MOBILE> That is not a pulse stream
[12:10:35] <zeeshan|2> so basically i need an analog to digital converter is what youre saying
[12:10:41] <JT-MOBILE> An encoder is digital0
[12:10:43] <zeeshan|2> (or just simply use thcad)
[12:10:52] <JT-MOBILE> Aye
[12:11:19] <zeeshan|2> this is the only extra thing needed relative to a cnc mill for example?
[12:11:28] <zeeshan|2> i saw limit switches on your thc
[12:11:35] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[12:11:49] <zeeshan|2> are you using them for homing
[12:11:56] <JT-MOBILE> My floating torch holder?
[12:12:03] <zeeshan|2> yes
[12:12:30] <JT-MOBILE> Z has a limit and a touch off switch
[12:12:59] <zeeshan|2> okay can you describe a typical operation
[12:13:01] <JT-MOBILE> The lower one is the touch off
[12:13:03] <zeeshan|2> do you first home it
[12:13:14] <JT-MOBILE> Yea
[12:13:14] <zeeshan|2> then after that you manually touch workpiece to get your Z offset
[12:13:24] <zeeshan|2> and then thc takes over from there?
[12:13:29] <JT-MOBILE> No
[12:14:32] <JT-MOBILE> My touch off sub does a probe move to find z0
[12:14:41] <zeeshan|2> how does it know to stop
[12:15:26] <JT-MOBILE> The switch on the floating head is connected to probe input
[12:16:17] <JT-MOBILE> When the torch touches it moves up and trips the switch
[12:16:36] <zeeshan|2> ahhhh
[12:17:06] <JT-MOBILE> The sub moves up and sets zo
[12:17:26] <JT-MOBILE> Look at touchoff.ngc
[12:17:34] <zeeshan|2> i did, i was a bit confused :)
[12:17:56] <zeeshan|2> i dont understand your floating head :P
[12:18:08] <zeeshan|2> (how does it lock in place)
[12:18:39] <JT-MOBILE> It's on a slide and has a down stop only
[12:18:53] <JT-MOBILE> It's free to move up
[12:19:29] <zeeshan|2> i see a video of something similar
[12:19:41] <zeeshan|2> it slides up and toucvhes a switch
[12:19:45] <zeeshan|2> and the weight of the torch brings it back down
[12:19:52] <JT-MOBILE> Yea
[12:20:24] <JT-MOBILE> I have some putube videos showing it
[12:20:29] <zeeshan|2> whats your channel
[12:21:30] <JT-MOBILE> lol I can't remember look for plasma first move
[12:22:01] <zeeshan|2> too many come up!
[12:25:03] <JT-MOBILE> http://s47.photobucket.com/user/johnplctech/media/Plasma%20Cutter/Plasma001.jpg.html
[12:25:12] <JT-MOBILE> Some photos
[12:25:20] <JT-MOBILE> Looking
[12:26:36] <zeeshan|2> why do you have to probe before you cut every time
[12:26:42] <zeeshan|2> why not just set the height of the work piece manually?
[12:27:28] <JT-MOBILE> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DqlXCdfPsQUU&ved=0CBwQtwIwAGoVChMI7_y8xJONxgIVwXySCh2huAAM&usg=AFQjCNG9ClClXp2iRFEBfo2QbAgy1fZAiA
[12:27:54] <JT-MOBILE> Hope that link works
[12:27:57] <zeeshan|2> it does
[12:28:12] <JT-MOBILE> The material may be warped
[12:30:21] * zeeshan|2 is trying to imagine the operation
[12:30:27] <zeeshan|2> i see it now in your video
[12:31:01] <zeeshan|2> so im assuming the distance from the limit switch to the tip of the torch is constant
[12:31:07] <zeeshan|2> then when the limit switch gets hit
[12:31:20] <zeeshan|2> you subtract that distance and now you know where the work piece is
[12:31:47] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[12:31:55] <t12> have some robot marketing
[12:31:56] <t12> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3XyDLbaUmU
[12:32:52] <zeeshan|2> thanks man!
[12:33:20] <JT-MOBILE> No problem
[12:33:32] <zeeshan|2> we're gonna have a 16x40" plasma
[12:33:35] <zeeshan|2> small, but better than nothing
[12:33:39] <zeeshan|2> cut all my flanges on it
[12:33:41] <JT-MOBILE> Clear as mud now?
[12:33:44] <zeeshan|2> yes
[12:33:48] <zeeshan|2> im gonna steal all your configs
[12:33:49] <zeeshan|2> :D
[12:33:57] <zeeshan|2> "copy paste"
[12:34:09] <zeeshan|2> main difference is you're using servos
[12:34:11] <zeeshan|2> we're using steppers
[12:34:25] <JT-MOBILE> Make the frame so you can slide bigger sheets i
[12:34:38] <zeeshan|2> hopefully we sell some of these parts we scavenged, and can get a 7i76 and 5i25 and thcad
[12:34:44] <JT-MOBILE> Mine is steppers
[12:34:46] <zeeshan|2> oh
[12:34:55] <zeeshan|2> well shit you're moving REALLY fast
[12:34:59] <zeeshan|2> like 400 ipm?
[12:35:12] <JT-MOBILE> 500ipm
[12:35:17] <zeeshan|2> we have some nema 23 250 oz-in
[12:35:19] <zeeshan|2> whats your stepper spec?
[12:35:46] <JT-MOBILE> Nema23 triple stack I think
[12:36:07] <JT-MOBILE> I can look it up when I get home
[12:36:22] <JT-MOBILE> Most important is the voltage
[12:36:27] <zeeshan|2> ok sweet
[12:36:33] <zeeshan|2> these guys were running them off a 24vdc supply
[12:36:36] <zeeshan|2> the (machine they came off)
[12:36:58] <zeeshan|2> im gonna test them later tonight when i get to the makerspace
[12:36:58] <JT-MOBILE> That will be slow
[12:37:05] <zeeshan|2> im throwing them on the frame
[12:37:08] <zeeshan|2> and seeing what ipm i can get
[12:37:27] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking 48V is needd.
[12:37:30] <zeeshan|2> *needed
[12:37:41] <JT-MOBILE> What stepper drive
[12:37:46] <zeeshan|2> unknown brand haha
[12:37:49] <zeeshan|2> it came on the machine
[12:37:58] <zeeshan|2> we might pick up some keling drives
[12:38:02] <JT-MOBILE> I'm running 68v
[12:38:04] <zeeshan|2> wow
[12:38:18] <JT-MOBILE> Gecko 203v
[12:38:51] <JT-MOBILE> Up to 80v
[12:38:55] <zeeshan|2> ni e
[12:38:57] <zeeshan|2> *nice
[12:39:11] <JT-MOBILE> The wiki has some calculators
[12:40:04] <zeeshan|2> from what i remember about steppers
[12:40:08] <zeeshan|2> the back emf limits top speed
[12:40:17] <zeeshan|2> so you need to overcome it with a larger supply
[12:41:00] <zeeshan|2> ok ill be back
[12:41:02] <zeeshan|2> thanks again
[12:41:08] <JT-MOBILE> Voltage is king with stepper and acceleration
[12:42:12] * JT-MOBILE hope they get the car dome soon
[12:56:56] <garfong> anyone have any luck with machinekit on a beaglebone black?
[12:57:51] <pcw_home> Lots of people but they are likely here:
[12:57:52] <pcw_home> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/machinekit
[12:58:03] <Tom_itx> pcw_home,
[12:58:26] <Tom_itx> is it safe to power the 7i90 without the buss chips? i wanted to check the 5v with them removed
[12:59:14] <garfong> ah ok ty
[13:02:27] <pcw_home> Sure no problem with chips removed (well other than no I/O)
[13:02:51] <Tom_itx> right, it's just a 5v test... was getting ~1.4 before
[13:03:10] <Tom_itx> verifying that was all that is bad
[13:07:24] <Rab> garfong, zero luck, give up now.
[13:07:35] <garfong> lol
[13:08:06] <garfong> I was kind of hoping it was the octoprint of CNC routing
[13:08:26] <Rab> garfong, that is, I spent several weeks evaluating that configuration before giving up and buying a cheap PC with a parallel port. I gently recommend that course of action unless you have special needs specific to the BBB.
[13:08:52] <garfong> No, that sounds like the direction I'll go then
[13:08:58] <garfong> thanks for the headsup
[13:09:29] <Rab> It works OK, it's just underpowered; hard to configure; and is not a direct port of LinuxCNC, so low-level documentation doesn't apply.
[13:11:22] <Rab> Charles S. and the other folks have put a lot of work into it, and it does work OK, but I wanted to work on the machine and not the platform/software.
[13:12:07] <garfong> yah, I was flirting with switching to linuxcnc from mach since I would have to get another pc anyway
[13:12:45] <garfong> I had such great luck with octoprint for the 3d printer, I thought I could save space in the garage
[13:12:54] <garfong> oh well
[13:12:57] <garfong> thanks for the info
[13:13:11] <garfong> time to make a run to microcenter :)
[13:13:53] <Rab> The Axis GUI is also pretty slow on the BBB. Like 10 FPS. It was rather frustrating.
[13:15:13] <Rab> garfong, you may want to read up on latency so you can select good hardware. Faster isn't necessarily better. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Latency-Test
[13:16:19] <Rab> E.g. laptops aren't usually a good fit for real time requrements because there's a lot of disruptive power management activity.
[13:21:06] <pcw_home> sometimes OK: linuxcnc running on a a Dell E6420
[13:21:07] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/linuxcnc.png
[13:21:09] <pcw_home> latency:
[13:21:10] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/e6420.png
[13:21:56] <pcw_home> (but you cannot change from battery to line power or vice versa without bad latency spikes)
[13:30:23] <Rab> pcw_home, I know some people have had trouble just with the battery installed; the BIOS does some charging top-off activity every few seconds.
[13:30:55] <Rab> Removing the battery solves that problem.
[13:31:20] <pcw_home> Yeah depends, Seems like some newer Intel laptops are ok
[13:32:10] <pcw_home> notice that latency test, thats 4 hours with videos running etc
[13:34:28] <pcw_home> This is with Preemt-RT which seems to run better on faster hardware
[13:35:50] <pcw_home> Preemt-RT on a faster machine:
[13:35:52] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258-preemt-rt.png
[14:42:46] <tjtr33> PCW, is that last plot for H97 chipset and g3258 cpu?
[14:43:03] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d62D3Et8zs8
[14:43:10] <SpeedEvil> Cogging Torque Ripple Minimization via Position Based Characterization
[14:45:44] <pcw_home> yes ASRock H97M Pro4 with G3258
[14:52:25] <tjtr33> thx
[14:53:09] <tjtr33> i had read that the Z97 chipset usually had more ports on the mobos
[14:58:34] <tjtr33> nice. 2pci 2 pcie a parport hdr and the ps2 split for 2 devices in 1 port ( just built a frankenstein kbd/mouse into a single cnxr )
[14:59:06] <pcw_home> well the AsRock MB is nice because it has 2 PCI slots, Intel MAC, parallel and serial and is cheap
[15:00:19] <pcw_home> also the G3258 is as fast per core as just about anything
[15:00:50] <pcw_home> (and is cheap, any of the G32XXs are probably similar)
[15:01:16] <pcw_home> plus RTAI latency is great
[15:01:27] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258.png
[15:02:33] <tjtr33> wow thats too clean
[15:03:20] <tjtr33> thx for testing these
[15:04:03] <pcw_home> also its fast enough to runs servo threads to say 8 KHz
[15:06:19] <tjtr33> i remember PMAC bragging about 32uS update rates
[15:06:46] <tjtr33> but i dont have a machine that respond that fast anyway
[15:06:56] <pcw_home> probably important if its running a current loop
[15:07:24] <pcw_home> not important for the velocity loop or below
[15:09:55] <pcw_home> current loop typically runs at the PWM rate (in the drive)
[15:09:57] <pcw_home> velocity loop typically runs at say 2 to 10 KHz in the drive or external
[15:09:58] <pcw_home> position loop typically runs at 1 to 4 KHz in the drive or external
[15:12:35] <pcw_home> unless you are running something very fast like a galvanometer or something
[15:12:37] <pcw_home> very fast and precise at the same time there's not really any advantage of running faster
[16:48:49] <robinsz> so, tell me, how easy is it ot change the labels in the GUI?
[16:50:16] <robinsz> there are basically 3 functions I need, mist (ok, thats there already) vac clamp and dust exract
[16:50:53] <robinsz> I was going to use the "flood" M code and buttonf for the vac clamp, just need to re-label it
[17:22:25] <Deejay> gn8
[17:39:22] <furrywolf> got very little at yard sales today... a cobra 140gtl for $1, a pair of jackstands for $3, and a couple small handtools for $2.
[17:39:55] <furrywolf> finally have a ssb cb again... my other one went awol a while ago...
[17:40:27] <furrywolf> need to mount it in my truck
[17:41:38] * furrywolf doesn't see why ALL cbs aren't ssb
[17:50:59] <SpeedEvil> yay
[18:09:29] <furrywolf> really... plain AM is so far inferior there's not really any reason to sell am-only cbs...
[18:11:31] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: PEP is much higher.
[18:12:01] <SpeedEvil> Historically, it's not been possible to do SSB to adequate frequency resolution without tuning
[18:12:53] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Are you still off the water grid?
[18:13:03] * SpeedEvil reads about water cuts.
[18:14:45] <furrywolf> yes
[18:14:52] <furrywolf> and there's no water shortage here
[18:15:41] <furrywolf> in fact, today's paper announced that we got the exemption to the state water reduction crap... rather than having to reduce our water usage 25%, we have to reduce it 4%. and, of course, that's only for people with city water, not wells.
[18:16:25] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:18:35] <furrywolf> we got the exemption because we're not part of the same water system as the rest of the state, we do not have a water shortage, and we have more than four years of water in reserve, that is, we could go more than four years at our current water usage rate, without a drop of rain, before the reservoir got low...
[18:19:47] <furrywolf> while reservoirs in the rest of the state are quite low, ours has been overflowing all winter
[18:20:02] <furrywolf> full to the spillways every time it rains
[18:21:00] <furrywolf> this, of course, means that in the long term southern california will hatch some plan to steal our water and pipe in their way, then act like it's our problem we don't have enough water, but for now, water is plentiful...
[18:22:37] <furrywolf> (note that's what they've done to the rest of the state - many other parts of the state would have plenty of water if it wasn't for it being piped down south)
[18:24:07] <furrywolf> water in california involves way too much politics, and the water tends to follow the money, usually to the detriment of smaller communities, the environment, the indian tribes, etc.
[18:24:29] <furrywolf> massive fish kills due to low water flows, etc.
[18:25:31] <SpeedEvil> The gravity maps are striking
[18:26:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/december/nasa-analysis-11-trillion-gallons-to-replenish-california-drought-losses/
[18:26:33] <furrywolf> just talked to the guy I got the generators from... going to head over there monday and pick up two more eu3000ises
[18:26:50] <SpeedEvil> :)
[18:27:01] <SpeedEvil> Why does he have so many - was trying to repair then health failed?
[18:27:52] <furrywolf> se up on the northern coast, where the trend is "0"? that's where I am.
[18:27:55] <furrywolf> see
[18:28:07] <furrywolf> it's a repair shop that closed a location, and this was the pile of crap in the back room.
[18:28:19] <XXCoder> was was thinking repair shop lol
[18:29:01] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:29:37] <furrywolf> we do not have a water shortage. this year was a little dry, like last year, but still something like 80% of our mean rainfall.
[18:32:06] <furrywolf> I want to see large nuclear desalination plants. If you want to build a city in the desert, you're required to build them and their required infrastructure, sufficient to generate all your own water.
[18:32:20] <furrywolf> rather than seeing which other parts of the state you can steal water from
[18:32:32] <SpeedEvil> Well, regular solar desalination also would work
[18:32:49] <XXCoder> furrywolf: that'd be great
[18:32:55] <furrywolf> sure, if you have a few million acres spare...
[18:33:47] <furrywolf> what'd be even better is nuclear fusion powered desalination, but so far we haven't quite gotten that to work. I think japan holds the record for the longest self-sustaining fusion reaction, at under a minute...
[18:34:07] <XXCoder> im sure fusion we are going down wrong track
[18:34:17] <XXCoder> hopefully some new discovery would help
[18:34:46] <furrywolf> you can extract your fusion fuel efficiently from the desalination brine, with no waste, making it a completely self-contained building that magically outputs fresh water with no input but sea water...
[18:34:52] <XXCoder> unless holycrap someone discovered zero point power
[18:34:59] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: we have
[18:35:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: test facilities were in Bikini Atol
[18:35:35] <furrywolf> yes, note I mentioned LONGEST. that was a very quick fusion reaction. :P
[18:36:58] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULjMjK5lCI oh god. The stupid - it burns.
[18:37:05] <SpeedEvil> Nuclear Hoax - Nukes Do Not Exist!
[18:37:28] <XXCoder> prymid power!
[18:37:39] <furrywolf> XXCoder: japan has gotten very close to a successful research-sized fusion plant, so that would be good evidence the current track may work. it may not be optimal, but it may work.
[18:37:44] <XXCoder> maybe scientists should put fusion under prymid lol
[18:38:01] <XXCoder> furrywolf: indeed just hope find much better method
[18:38:20] <SpeedEvil> We've had nuclear breakeven in fusion.
[18:38:39] <SpeedEvil> But this is some ways from energy breakeven in a reactor, and even further from commercial realisation
[18:38:49] <XXCoder> I would laugh so hard if someone finds actual gravity power
[18:39:27] <XXCoder> aka all them crackpot overunity stuff
[18:39:39] <furrywolf> no, we've had a self-sustaining, contained, controlled fusion reaction, on the order of a minute, in a test reactor.
[18:39:49] <furrywolf> very close to break-even.
[18:40:39] <SpeedEvil> yeah - not the tabletop ones
[18:40:41] <SpeedEvil> JET
[18:40:52] <SpeedEvil> JET is not tabletop
[18:41:02] <SpeedEvil> Unless you have an awesome table
[18:41:12] <furrywolf> when did anyone ever mention tabletop?
[18:41:23] <furrywolf> I was talking about desalination facilities capable of supplying a city
[18:41:43] <SpeedEvil> I misread - and I thought XXCoderwas referring to 'fusor'
[18:42:03] <XXCoder> lol
[18:42:53] <furrywolf> ITER claims to be aiming for a self-sustaining reaction, but they seem to be taking an awful lot of money to get there.
[18:42:55] <XXCoder> theres also other important discovery that definitely need fusion - em drive
[18:43:10] <XXCoder> it used to be crackpot but then chinese then nasa proved it works
[18:43:20] <furrywolf> ... they have not "proved it works"
[18:43:31] <furrywolf> any more than I've looked out the window today and proved it never rains anywhere in the world
[18:44:00] <XXCoder> well they proved it moves under power
[18:44:31] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: No, they haven't.
[18:44:58] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: In order to prove something works, you need multiple people to test a thing, and get similar results to witnin the bounds of error.
[18:45:02] <SpeedEvil> This has not happened.
[18:45:17] <furrywolf> they proved their test apparatus measured a very, very tiny force. they have not proven this force was the result of the claimed effect, and not due to unaccounted environmental factors, such as interaction with the earth's magnetic field.
[18:45:32] <SpeedEvil> The chinese and the NASA effects are _significantly_ different in orders of magnitude
[18:45:44] <furrywolf> in fact, their dummy device, designed to NOT show the claimed effect, registered the same force.
[18:45:46] <XXCoder> well one thing is that it is more than just crackpot
[18:46:10] <XXCoder> I just hope it turns out to be effective long term
[18:46:22] <XXCoder> we REALLY need drive that dont throw stuff behind
[18:46:37] <furrywolf> much, much more testing is needed before claiming it's been proven to work.
[18:46:47] <XXCoder> indeed
[18:46:53] <furrywolf> the fact that the dummy test showed the same force is closer to proving it DOESN'T work...
[18:47:00] <SpeedEvil> The EM drive is also a free energy device.
[18:47:15] <SpeedEvil> If indeed it produces constant thrust at any speed.
[18:47:19] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: what no
[18:47:24] <XXCoder> it needs MASSIVE power input
[18:47:38] <XXCoder> its huge drain not free energy
[18:47:39] <SpeedEvil> At thrust / watts in m/s you can connect a generator to it, and get breakeven.
[18:47:46] <XXCoder> nah
[18:47:51] <SpeedEvil> At twice that speed, you get the same amount of power out as in
[18:48:01] <XXCoder> it barely moves (assuming it actually does) so you can maybe get 1 watt
[18:48:06] <XXCoder> compared to huge amount in
[18:48:23] <SpeedEvil> One newton per 10000W equals breakeven at 10km/s.
[18:48:39] <SpeedEvil> This is as engineering annoying.
[18:49:25] <XXCoder> its not 100% conversion of power to speed
[18:49:27] <furrywolf> Japan believes their fusion test reactor is capable of generating 1.25 times the energy put into it, being self-sustaining. but, it's not set up to handle the fuel needed to do so. they're working on upgrades....
[18:49:59] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: If you are claiming that force varies with speed, you've just reinvented the aether.
[18:50:08] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: and now have a whole heap of other seperate problems.
[18:50:10] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: what if it's determined to become less efficient as its speed increases? after all, we're inventing physics here, might as well invent something to balance them out... :P
[18:50:34] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: im just saying that constant force means speed increase, and force needs whole heaps of power
[18:51:10] <XXCoder> which means its way less than 1% effecient
[18:51:18] <furrywolf> 1% of what?
[18:51:18] <SpeedEvil> No, it doesn't.
[18:51:31] <furrywolf> how do you measure the efficiency of converting energy to force? what is your reference?
[18:51:34] <SpeedEvil> 1N per 10000W of power is not any % efficient.
[18:52:00] <SpeedEvil> The efficiency depends on speed. At 1000m/s it's 10% efficient. At 10000m/s, 100%. 20000m/s 200%
[18:52:57] <furrywolf> XXCoder: as I've said, I'd love if it works... but I'm not believing it does without substantially more testing, and the results of that testing will need to alter currently understood physics.
[18:53:18] <XXCoder> furrywolf: it might be case of seperate frame of reference for light
[18:53:44] <XXCoder> or maybe it pushes on vacuum parcles and it disappears before hitting other end hence cancelling motion
[18:54:01] <XXCoder> really they got no idea why it works atm
[18:54:05] <furrywolf> or maybe it has little hamsters running around inside the photons making them roll faster
[18:54:12] <XXCoder> makes it tough on how to improve it
[18:54:19] <XXCoder> lol yeah force is that small
[18:54:36] <XXCoder> it could bve hamster rolling a whille causing angular troque
[18:54:40] <XXCoder> *wheel
[18:54:45] <furrywolf> I'm not commenting on the size of the force. I'm commenting on the utterly inventedness of any theories as to its operation.
[18:55:16] <XXCoder> indeed
[18:56:22] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: im still not understanding your idea - seems youre saying that device allows anyone to set it to any speed using same amount of energy?
[18:56:24] <furrywolf> if it works, it'll change physics as we know it. that's certainly happened plenty of times throughout history, and is not impossible. but such changes require much more testing.
[18:56:27] <XXCoder> because thats not the case
[18:56:33] <XXCoder> indeed
[18:57:03] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: the problem is if it does not produce the same thrust at any speed, it requires an aether to push against
[18:57:12] <XXCoder> ah trolling
[18:57:17] <SpeedEvil> which then raises the awkward question of why this aether is co-rotating with earth
[18:57:53] <SpeedEvil> The earth is rotating around the sun at ~40km/s and around the galaxy at ~150km/s
[18:58:06] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: there's plenty of theories involving modern versions of aether to explain its operation
[18:58:07] <SpeedEvil> why should the thrust be proportional to speed at earth.
[18:58:21] <furrywolf> I'll be especially amused if it turns out Tesla's aether-based claims were right after all. :)
[18:59:16] <XXCoder> furrywolf: another interesting thing I hope would be discovered is tachyon
[18:59:38] <furrywolf> on the fusion power topic, they're now claiming ITER will be ready to start testing things in 2020... seems that date keeps getting pushed back, and the dollar requirement up, but slowly getting there.
[18:59:53] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: slowdowns cause spending to rise.
[19:00:16] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Plus, unfortunate pork-barrel stuff that's in many ways worse than NASA - which takes some doing
[19:00:25] <SpeedEvil> 'we need 12 of these'
[19:00:34] <SpeedEvil> So, let's order 3 from japan, 3 from france, ...
[19:00:57] <furrywolf> if they really do get out what their predictions say, ten times output than input, it'll demonstrate a commercial plant to be feasable...
[19:01:56] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[19:02:16] <XXCoder> yeah I wouldnt think 1.5x is suffecent
[19:02:19] <SpeedEvil> At which point, solar+battery will be economical, so they can not bother building it
[19:02:31] <SpeedEvil> (not quite serious - but ...)
[19:02:40] <XXCoder> telsa is building home battery system
[19:02:45] <XXCoder> using their famous car batteries
[19:03:07] <furrywolf> XXCoder: no, it needs a lot more, due to the inefficiencies at various steps of the process... like using heat to generate power to generate microwaves to generate heat...
[19:03:09] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: the cost of the electricity in general exceeds $.40/kWh for most reasonable use-cases
[19:03:18] <furrywolf> tesla's home battery system is available, and it's crap.
[19:03:25] <SpeedEvil> It's not crap.
[19:03:29] <SpeedEvil> It's uneconomic
[19:03:42] <furrywolf> the cost substantially exceeds other vendors' batteries, with piss-poor specs.
[19:04:06] <furrywolf> stupidly high internal resistance. I'm not sure how they managed to do that, given as their electric car packs would require low internal resistance...
[19:04:30] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I don't think they quote internal resistance
[19:04:54] <furrywolf> no, they quote a maximum current, which is stupidly low, which implies it must have a stupidly high internal resistance, and melts or droops over that.
[19:04:54] <SpeedEvil> If you mean the low charge/discharge - then that's to extend life
[19:05:21] <SpeedEvil> i would be very surprised if the cells couldn't do 200kW pulses on the 10kWh pack
[19:05:22] <XXCoder> oh yeah keep forgetting this
[19:05:30] <XXCoder> furrywolf: how much KWH for home would be suffecent?
[19:05:36] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: it depends.
[19:05:53] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: Are you in a nice solar area, where the worst-case annual dip in sunlight is 50%
[19:06:14] <SpeedEvil> Or do you live in a place where you need to be able to run from two days sun for a week.
[19:06:30] <XXCoder> summer former winter latter
[19:06:31] <furrywolf> and how many kw does your home draw? :P
[19:06:37] <SpeedEvil> 'how much kWh' depends a lot on stuff.
[19:06:50] <XXCoder> indeed thats part of my question - how to know that
[19:06:53] <SpeedEvil> It can reasonably go from about 1kWh/day to 200kWh/day
[19:07:06] <SpeedEvil> depending on assumptions and your house style
[19:07:38] <furrywolf> are you willing to sit in the dark? do you want to go entirely solar, which is more expensive but quiet and clean, or use a backup generator for long unsunny periods, which is cheaper, but noisy, dirty, requires fuel supplies, maintenance, etc?
[19:08:01] <SpeedEvil> 1kWh would be an efficient multi-occupant home, not heating or cooling electrically, and with a small room to yourself with LED and tablet.
[19:08:26] <furrywolf> I'm electrically cooling right now. :P
[19:08:43] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I was thinking enough to cover peaks and lessen cooling/heating costs
[19:08:48] <furrywolf> the nice thing about electrically cooling is that demand and supply tend to align better than most loads
[19:09:08] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: also in principle for solar concentration too
[19:09:10] <XXCoder> maybe sometimes cover power needs completely (summer easily can do that, its sunny a lot then)
[19:09:22] <furrywolf> for off-grid, keep in mind the cost of batteries exceeds the cost of grid power.
[19:09:25] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I've wondered about your standard panel, with a couple of wings for 3* sun, and a big fan
[19:09:46] <furrywolf> that is, it's cheaper to sell your extra to the grid and buy your nighttime power, than it is to store it in batteries.
[19:10:04] <XXCoder> yea was wondering about that
[19:10:14] <SpeedEvil> Batteries make sense - if the alternative is generators
[19:10:18] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: concentrated solar is nothing new
[19:10:24] <furrywolf> I even have some panels from the carizzo plant, where they aimed sun at them until they baked.
[19:10:27] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: no, it's not
[19:10:36] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I mean using stock panels not rated for it
[19:10:43] <furrywolf> yes
[19:11:39] <SpeedEvil> what concentration were they using?
[19:11:46] <furrywolf> plenty of tests have been done on this. they work well, IFF, and that's a big IFF, you have direct sunlight. doesn't help when your light source is diffuse light, like on overcast, cloudy, foggy, rainy, etc days.
[19:12:00] <XXCoder> if thats 1kw I wonder how much space it would need for say 50kw (wild guess half of house needs)
[19:12:03] <SpeedEvil> and yes, concentration obviously works.
[19:12:20] <furrywolf> so you end up getting more power when you already have plenty of power (clear days), and not getting any benefit at all on days where you could actually use the extra power.
[19:12:21] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning with stock non-concentrated panels
[19:12:32] <SpeedEvil> for AC loads
[19:12:42] <SpeedEvil> It is - almost - useless here.
[19:13:08] <XXCoder> big window AC needs 1 kw
[19:13:19] <furrywolf> concentrating solar is a good idea for power plants in desert areas. I don't think it's useful for most home systems.
[19:13:21] <XXCoder> centeral AC needs 3.5kw
[19:13:34] <furrywolf> also consider concentrating solar requires tracking for most cases
[19:13:42] <XXCoder> wow if just cover serious power needs of nice AC system, just need say 4 panels
[19:13:46] <furrywolf> adding to costs, both upfront and ongoing.
[19:13:49] <XXCoder> more if charging battery at same time
[19:13:59] <XXCoder> how long do panels last
[19:14:02] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: typical panels are 250W
[19:14:10] * furrywolf has no idea what xxcoder is talking about anymore
[19:14:10] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: plus, you need an inverter.
[19:14:24] <XXCoder> furrywolf: power needs and solar panels
[19:15:09] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: yea I saw 1kw panels on a site
[19:15:21] <XXCoder> more expensive than 100w ones but way less area
[19:15:26] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: I'm not saying they don't exist, but they don't exist.
[19:15:35] <furrywolf> lol
[19:15:40] <XXCoder> :P
[19:15:46] <SpeedEvil> 1kW panels would be around 5m^2
[19:15:59] * furrywolf googles and confirms the non-existance of 1kw panels
[19:16:00] <SpeedEvil> This is ~8 feet on a side.
[19:16:20] <SpeedEvil> And weigh ~200kg or so
[19:16:33] <XXCoder> that may be case yes
[19:16:50] <SpeedEvil> They're so much harder to handle, and transport that it's not going to happen.
[19:16:58] <SpeedEvil> Unless as very special niches.
[19:17:05] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LBSolar-1KW-Off-Grid-Solar-Power-Generator-System-Kit-with-1000W-Inverter-Internal-Installed-12V20A-Controller/32361235927.html
[19:17:05] <furrywolf> I've seen an impressively large panel, but not that big.
[19:17:21] <XXCoder> claims there any good heh
[19:17:30] <furrywolf> kit != panel.
[19:17:34] <SpeedEvil> 'solar power 200W'
[19:17:35] <XXCoder> I kniow
[19:17:47] <SpeedEvil> the panel is 200W, not 1kW
[19:17:51] <furrywolf> also,that's only a 200W panel kit. lol
[19:17:53] <XXCoder> theres panel only one thats 1kw too
[19:18:03] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I know!
[19:18:04] <SpeedEvil> that will have four or five panels
[19:18:08] <furrywolf> and that's a shit price
[19:18:25] <furrywolf> you can get panels from the US substantially cheaper
[19:18:26] <XXCoder> I was wondering merits of entry not wheather its 1kw panel or not
[19:18:33] <XXCoder> yeah? nice
[19:18:43] <XXCoder> sources? I wanna do some research
[19:19:17] <furrywolf> you need to start with research on basic fundamentals, not pricing. you research pricing after you have some clue what you're looking for and at.
[19:19:17] <SpeedEvil> $1/W i can get locally on ebay, free delivery
[19:19:26] <SpeedEvil> And yeah - that.
[19:19:40] <SpeedEvil> A reasonable starting point is working out what your baseload is.
[19:19:43] <furrywolf> no offense, but... you do not have this clue. at all.
[19:19:49] <SpeedEvil> And what approvals you would need to connect to the grid.
[19:20:04] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah I wanted to ask how to figure stuff out
[19:20:28] <XXCoder> lets assume 50kw
[19:20:38] <XXCoder> how do I start looking around
[19:20:47] <furrywolf> 50kw is a very large solar system, more suitable to a small commercial installation.
[19:21:07] <XXCoder> lets do large bump down
[19:21:10] <XXCoder> 10kw?
[19:21:12] <SpeedEvil> I suspect he may be confusing kW and kWh
[19:21:20] <furrywolf> http://www.civicsolar.com/product/canadian-solar-cs6p-255p-255w-poly-blkwht-quartech-solar-panel 84 cents/watt, not too bad....
[19:21:27] <XXCoder> actually that may be case SpeedEvil
[19:21:37] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: Where do you live?
[19:21:43] <XXCoder> kilowatt a hour
[19:21:58] <XXCoder> washington state, the not desert side - west
[19:22:06] <furrywolf> http://www.civicsolar.com/product/canadian-solar-cs6p-260p-260w-poly-blkwht-solar-panel-blemished 68 cents/watt if you don't mind blemished panels
[19:22:25] <furrywolf> the "solar is a bad investment" zone? :)
[19:22:48] <XXCoder> furrywolf: thats why I was wondering about it as "cover the cooling costs" option rather than whole house
[19:23:14] <SpeedEvil> First step - what is your electricity bill for AC
[19:23:39] <SpeedEvil> Then it's likely that minor improvements in insulation, or shading could help way cheaper than solar
[19:23:49] <XXCoder> makes sense
[19:23:53] <XXCoder> thanks
[19:23:55] <furrywolf> when talking about system kw, you need to specify if you're talking about solar kw or inverter kw.
[19:24:06] <XXCoder> so housing power bills usually is in kwh correct?
[19:24:12] <XXCoder> so I need to figure solar kwh and so on
[19:24:13] <furrywolf> yes
[19:24:26] <SpeedEvil> One kWh is one kW for one hour
[19:24:55] <XXCoder> yeah units easy to figure for me, just thought kw is usual unit to use
[19:25:25] <XXCoder> http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/start-here/offgrid-calculator
[19:25:35] <XXCoder> brb
[19:25:48] <furrywolf> affordable-solar says they have nice panels for $0.74/W...
[19:26:38] <SpeedEvil> There are a lot of panels around that price here on ebay in ones, pickup only.
[19:26:55] <SpeedEvil> Entirely unrelated - there have been thefts from large solar farms.
[19:27:26] <furrywolf> there was a solar panel theft here a number of years back
[19:27:49] <furrywolf> some guy got a used caltrans truck, an orange vest, and went around in broad daylight and stole all the panels off road signs. :)
[19:29:29] <furrywolf> apparantly a bright orange truck and reflective vest is the best camouflage you can get. :)
[19:29:55] <SpeedEvil> yeah :)
[19:42:54] <Roguish> hey all. In gmoccapy, using the DRO tab, how can I change it to show inches, rather than metric?
[19:44:33] <XXCoder> furrywolf: sad
[19:44:49] <XXCoder> but yeah professional looking, knowin what to do is best defense for criminal
[19:46:33] <furrywolf> that gets into social engineering rather than garden-variety criminality.
[19:47:02] <SpeedEvil> Having the legislature respond to your lobbying is the best defense for a criminal.
[19:48:47] <furrywolf> lol
[19:49:40] <furrywolf> one of california's water saving measures is that restaurants are not allowed to give customers drinking water without the customer asking for it. I can only imagine how much money the soft drink industry spent to get that tossed in there...
[19:50:20] <SpeedEvil> Wow.
[19:50:25] <SpeedEvil> That is just fucking mental
[19:50:36] <furrywolf> no, it's a quite intelligent plant to boost soda sales.
[19:50:46] <SpeedEvil> yes - I mean that it could pass
[19:51:29] <furrywolf> you had faith in our government? that's sad.
[19:52:34] <XXCoder> hmm 17 kwh, lets assume 35kwh peak, now figuting solar stuff lol
[19:53:05] <XXCoder> well its not major water saving but less water wastage is good anyway
[19:53:21] <XXCoder> but want to save calfornia? kick almonds farms out
[19:53:26] <XXCoder> its HUGE water usage
[19:53:27] <furrywolf> it's a non-existant water saving. the same customer drinking soda uses more water.
[19:53:42] <XXCoder> yeah but water thown away is water wasted
[19:53:52] <furrywolf> however, the same customer drinking soda makes a bunch of people more money, while them drinking water does not.
[19:54:07] <XXCoder> peak sun hours 3.5 hours lol place I live sucks for solar
[19:54:30] <XXCoder> minium system size for 100% 21904 watts
[19:54:36] <XXCoder> 110 panels
[19:54:36] <furrywolf> it has nothing to do with water saving... it has to do with groups that stand to make money on soft drink sales finding a sneaky way to get a law passed to discourage water consumption.
[19:54:43] <furrywolf> 17kwh a day?
[19:54:52] <XXCoder> apparently
[19:54:58] <XXCoder> $200 a month
[19:55:01] <furrywolf> you must have electric heat and air conditioning?
[19:55:08] <furrywolf> wtf? $200 a month on electricity?
[19:55:18] <XXCoder> I suspect somethings wrong with power system here
[19:55:29] <XXCoder> BIG house though
[19:55:32] <furrywolf> yeah, like every other house on your block is wired to your meter...
[19:56:01] <XXCoder> here power price is hugh
[19:56:03] <XXCoder> high
[19:56:04] <furrywolf> unless you're running electric hear and a/c.
[19:56:10] <furrywolf> heat
[19:56:15] <XXCoder> lemme check power
[19:56:32] <furrywolf> do you have electric heat and a/c?
[19:56:44] <XXCoder> heat yeah ac I dont think so
[19:57:04] <furrywolf> ... you don't think so? lol
[19:57:10] <XXCoder> I was consering adding centeral but high power cost
[19:57:14] <furrywolf> electric heat is probably why your bill is so high
[19:57:21] <XXCoder> 110 panels is nuts lol
[19:57:27] <XXCoder> why would we have it on now?
[19:58:02] <SpeedEvil> 110 panels would provide 20kW peak, or about 80kWh for 4 hours of sun.
[19:58:47] <furrywolf> I don't know why you'd have it on, but I can't imagine any other way you'd use 17kwh/day.
[19:59:09] <XXCoder> actually that may be average
[19:59:16] <XXCoder> year around
[19:59:17] <furrywolf> do you have 1700 cfl or led lamps running 24/7? :P
[19:59:27] <XXCoder> lol
[19:59:41] <XXCoder> that means winter heating is killer though
[20:00:29] <XXCoder> linux calculator sucks
[20:00:42] <XXCoder> furrywolf: know of better calculator than mint stock?
[20:00:49] <SpeedEvil> bc
[20:01:10] <XXCoder> shell interesting
[20:01:53] <furrywolf> I have no idea what calculator mint comes with. I use bc and units for my calculation needs.
[20:02:15] <XXCoder> 510 kwh a month gives me 17 kwh and 25 panels
[20:02:18] <XXCoder> more reasonable
[20:02:36] <XXCoder> peak uses would need grid power but otherwise not too bad
[20:02:42] <SpeedEvil> Can you net meter where you are.
[20:02:51] <SpeedEvil> That is almost the most important number
[20:02:53] <SpeedEvil> err
[20:02:54] <SpeedEvil> feature
[20:02:56] <SpeedEvil> thingy
[20:02:59] <furrywolf> first, keep in mind panels only put out half their rating.
[20:03:04] <XXCoder> if more expensive 310 watt 16 panels
[20:03:14] <furrywolf> their rating is for a cold panel perfectly aimed at the noon sun at the equator.
[20:03:28] <XXCoder> furrywolf: makes sense
[20:03:37] <SpeedEvil> half is not a bad average for a sunny day.
[20:03:43] <XXCoder> always wondered if could use stirling to cool panels lol
[20:03:51] <SpeedEvil> On a non-sunny day - way worse than that. Fan is a plus.
[20:03:56] <SpeedEvil> Anything more is overkill
[20:03:58] <SpeedEvil> Or a chimney
[20:04:06] <furrywolf> your panels will be hot (GREATLY lowers output), not aimed anywhere near the sun (unless you have a tracker), and not at the equator.
[20:05:00] <SpeedEvil> However, panels today are so cheap that trackers - with their severe added mounting unreliability, complexity and wind-catchability are often uneconomic versus mounting more panels pointing the way you want
[20:05:00] <XXCoder> though minor thing I want is just add small stand solar panels in backyard and use it to power ac lol
[20:05:53] <furrywolf> are you planning on grid-tie of off-grid? off-grid requires substantial oversizing to deal with multiple cloudy days.
[20:06:07] <XXCoder> yeah on grid more like i
[20:06:12] <furrywolf> for grid-tie, you need to investigate the rate structure of your local utility.
[20:06:20] <XXCoder> off grid for shed anyway need lights and basic stuff thats all
[20:06:45] <furrywolf> if they only pay you 1/10th what they charge you, there's not much point in oversizing your system at all, as it's just throwing money away.
[20:06:55] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Well, yes and no.
[20:07:07] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: It means you can offset baseload very easily
[20:07:18] <furrywolf> also plan on adjusting your usage to correspond to sunny days. for example, I only do laundry when it's sunny...
[20:07:18] <SpeedEvil> But going to much more than baseload is questionable
[20:07:51] <furrywolf> if I have to do a load of laundry when it's cloudy, I won't have enough power to tumble dry.
[20:07:57] <furrywolf> unless I run the generator.
[20:08:02] <XXCoder> interesting
[20:08:06] <furrywolf> (dryer is a big load)
[20:08:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: why tumble-dry, and not a greenhouse drier say
[20:08:37] <furrywolf> because if there's no sun, any sun-based drying won't work any better? :P
[20:08:48] <furrywolf> keep in mind it's usually 90% or so humidity here. clothes don't dry on their own.
[20:08:51] <SpeedEvil> Very limited sun can get to +10C
[20:08:52] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:09:10] <SpeedEvil> +10C means you're at 50% humidity or less
[20:09:16] <SpeedEvil> Even with 90% outside
[20:09:33] <furrywolf> I have a greenhouse. it's more humid than anywhere else. :P
[20:09:34] <SpeedEvil> I dry in surprisingly cold and dull weather in my greenhouse and it works well
[20:09:44] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I don't actually grow stuff in it
[20:09:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:09:50] <XXCoder> furrywolf: check this http://www.mdpub.com/suntracker/
[20:09:57] <XXCoder> he used solar paels as tracker
[20:10:10] <XXCoder> read to bottom for upgrades he did to make it work better
[20:10:27] <furrywolf> yes, I know how solar trackers work.
[20:10:37] <SpeedEvil> The hard part isn't getting it to work.
[20:10:37] <XXCoder> not this one
[20:10:39] <furrywolf> I also know, as speedevil already said, they're not useful at current panel prices.
[20:10:49] <SpeedEvil> The hard part is getting it to work for 20 years and not blow away.
[20:10:51] <furrywolf> yes, I know how THAT ONE works, because you've pasted it before.
[20:11:04] <XXCoder> ahh more clear. ok lol
[20:11:53] <XXCoder> its not worth for house but portable yea
[20:11:58] <SpeedEvil> Plus - he uses an antenna rotator.
[20:12:09] <SpeedEvil> Where exactly would you source 25 antenna rotators cheap?
[20:12:24] <furrywolf> unless you build a piece of crap, which is a bad idea when you're talking a thousand pounds of panels, the upfront cost exceeds the upfront cost of additional non-tracking panels to get the same output, while adding issues of structural support, maintenance, repairs, storm damage, additional room to allow for movement, etc.
[20:13:11] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: 25? looks like he used only one?
[20:13:13] <furrywolf> the morning and evening sun aims through a lot of atmosphere (and associated weather), and depending on your areas, trees, neighbor's houses, etc... you don't get much extra in most areas.
[20:13:28] <furrywolf> XXCoder: because he only has 1/25 the panel area you're talking about.
[20:13:35] <SpeedEvil> Plus - more non-tracked panels means better performance on very dull overcast days
[20:13:46] <XXCoder> interesting
[20:13:48] <XXCoder> thanks guys
[20:14:37] <furrywolf> trackers were a great idea when panels were $10/watt. now that they're $0.80/watt, it's a lot cheaper to just add a few more panels.
[20:15:11] <SpeedEvil> Vertical tracking may or may not be worth it
[20:15:16] <furrywolf> note that new commercial installations either use very, very large trackers (taking advantage of economy of scale), or fixed panels.
[20:15:17] <SpeedEvil> - where you adjust for summer or winter
[20:15:34] <SpeedEvil> manually
[20:15:43] <XXCoder> place I work at has HUGE roof space
[20:15:53] <furrywolf> does it point the right direction?
[20:16:06] <XXCoder> so big that it could probably power must everything under it even pointing up
[20:16:30] <XXCoder> I would just add enough solar panels to power lights
[20:16:40] <XXCoder> because good grief theres so many lights.
[20:17:03] <furrywolf> there's a cheaper device for that. it's also 5+ times more efficient.
[20:17:06] <SpeedEvil> Pointing flat up actually works more-or-less OK here.
[20:17:08] <furrywolf> it's called a skylight.
[20:17:22] <XXCoder> yeah my old place had it
[20:17:27] <XXCoder> pretty good
[20:17:31] <furrywolf> actually, more like 50 times as efficient
[20:17:32] <XXCoder> *work place
[20:17:48] <XXCoder> my current work place dont have en
[20:17:49] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: not 50 times.
[20:18:00] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: More like 20 times.
[20:18:00] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: you're right, more than 50 times. :P
[20:18:08] <XXCoder> old place had em, and it can pop up for cooling
[20:18:18] <furrywolf> 20 times? where are you getting these >25% efficient light emitters?
[20:19:07] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Corretion ~8 times
[20:19:46] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Sunlight is 130klm/m^2. A good panel will put out 190W/m^2. This - with 100lm/W LEDs can get you to 19klm.
[20:20:20] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: theres now led "bar lights" (dunno what its proper name is? them glass tubes)
[20:20:45] <XXCoder> price has lowered a whole lot but still bit more money than cheap mecury containing ones
[20:20:48] <SpeedEvil> 100lm/W LEDs are 'low end' now.
[20:21:01] <SpeedEvil> (on a component level)
[20:21:26] <furrywolf> a good panel is 14% efficient. a good inverter is 90-95% efficient. a good LED lamp is... blah, I can't find a quick number googling.
[20:21:41] <XXCoder> led varies a lot too
[20:21:51] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming DC inverter to LEDs and 95%
[20:22:20] <SpeedEvil> But it's clearly better than 10 - best case.
[20:22:30] <SpeedEvil> best actually manufacturable case.
[20:22:34] <furrywolf> I think there's some math error there, because led efficiencies are sill only around 10% iirc.
[20:23:03] <SpeedEvil> The 'error' is as a lot of light is in IR, and the solar panel uses some of that too.
[20:23:13] <SpeedEvil> Plus, modern LEDs are a bit better than 10%
[20:23:27] <SpeedEvil> Exactly how you measure them is hard.
[20:23:51] <XXCoder> dunno if useful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy
[20:23:56] <XXCoder> it has leds
[20:23:57] <SpeedEvil> Quality of white matters.
[20:25:37] <furrywolf> ok, found a forum page that says 683 lm/w would be a 100% efficient light source. so 100lm/watt is 15% efficient
[20:25:51] <SpeedEvil> It's not that easy
[20:25:54] <SpeedEvil> that's for pure green
[20:26:10] <furrywolf> which means white is even less efficient. :P
[20:26:22] <SpeedEvil> 5800 K black-body truncated to ≥5% photopic sensitivity range - is probably a sane comparator
[20:26:25] <XXCoder> that wiki says max theoretical white led is 46%
[20:26:34] <XXCoder> and rest is far below it
[20:26:39] <SpeedEvil> this is a spectrum which is virtually indistinguishable from the sun
[20:27:09] <SpeedEvil> And can be 340lm/W. Best 'white' LEDs are somewhat north of 150lm/W.
[20:27:12] <furrywolf> 1/(.15 * .95 * .15) makes skylights 47 times as efficient
[20:27:44] <SpeedEvil> This makes it 40% - but the reason for the difference is they are not solar identical.
[20:28:16] <furrywolf> best != available at walmart
[20:28:19] <SpeedEvil> If you are simply asking for 'how much area of solar panel + LED do I need to equal a window'
[20:28:32] <furrywolf> also, plugging 40% in still means 18 times less efficient
[20:28:43] <SpeedEvil> - and come out as sort-of-white - you get ~8 times.
[20:29:13] <furrywolf> now, let's look at $/lm... :P
[20:29:33] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: That can be complicated, as windows can thermally screw your design
[20:31:25] <furrywolf> a 1m2 skylight costs about $100, and gives you, by your math, 130klm. that's $0.77/klm. a 1klm LED bulb is $10, and needs $30 of solar panel to run it, plus $10 of inverter, $5 of mounting,...
[20:32:15] <SpeedEvil> I'm ignoring commercially available LEDs, and consireding what I can make.
[20:33:00] <furrywolf> and given how much more solar installers cost than roofers, figure it's $75 for 1klm of solar led, vs $0.77 for the 1klm of skylight... or about 1/100th the cost to put in a skylight vs grid-tie solar panels running lights. :)
[20:33:03] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/XHP70A-01-0000-0D0BN20E1/XHP70A-01-0000-0D0BN20E1CT-ND/5051097 * 16 will run one square meters worth of solar panels, and produce 25klm
[20:33:37] <XXCoder> whats that
[20:33:48] <SpeedEvil> For about $400
[20:33:52] <XXCoder> oh led
[20:34:09] <SpeedEvil> In small quantity.
[20:34:16] <furrywolf> 6500k, 70cri? fuck that
[20:34:20] <furrywolf> even costco led lamps are pushing 90cri.
[20:34:26] <SpeedEvil> And yes, this is bad white light
[20:34:43] <SpeedEvil> you can drop quite a lot.
[20:34:46] <XXCoder> I love my costco fake tube lights leds
[20:34:47] <SpeedEvil> er
[20:34:49] <SpeedEvil> err
[20:34:52] <XXCoder> nice lights
[20:35:06] <SpeedEvil> I mean - knock a third off the lumens if you want nice whites
[20:35:18] <furrywolf> Feit (the generic crap costco sells) has "92+" CRI...
[20:35:55] <CaptHindsight> what makes a white bad vs nice? evil vs good?
[20:36:16] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: you can make a light which looks visially white with a yellow and a blue - two pure colours.
[20:36:23] <furrywolf> http://www.feit.com/led-lamps/Enhance_LED_A-Bulbs except I bought a stack of those at costco and half them promptly failed with ballast issues. fortunately costco has an excellent returns policy, and gave me all my money back.
[20:36:39] <XXCoder> my room has those lights
[20:36:41] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: whites are never bad. only blacks are bad. just ask the police.
[20:36:41] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: it looks white to the eye - but of course is terrible if you actually want to look at stuff under it.
[20:36:51] <XXCoder> 5 of em, 2 of em used as alarm lights
[20:37:11] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: CRI - colour rendition index - is how similar colours look under it to sunlight.
[20:37:19] <SpeedEvil> Or is it tungsten - I forget
[20:37:43] <furrywolf> both tungsten and sun have excellent CRIs, just different color temperatures...
[20:38:09] <CaptHindsight> but but warm whites are best for womens powder rooms, so isn't this subjective?
[20:38:13] <SpeedEvil> I should look at the definition of CRI and understand it.
[20:38:26] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: To a degree, yes
[20:39:04] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: But a light that looks sufficiently wierd can be not actually very useful or restful to be under.
[20:40:04] <furrywolf> my favorite color quality issues is a flatbed scanner I used to have that scanned someone's colored pencil drawing with all the colors severely wrong, such as yellow as black. because the pigment reflected a specific actual yellow wavelength, and neither red nor green...
[20:40:26] <furrywolf> it's the same way with LEDs... cheap ones cause colors to look very, very wrong.
[20:42:12] <furrywolf> wow, apparantly you can get 97 CRI LED lamps now
[20:42:23] <furrywolf> 98, even
[20:42:37] <SpeedEvil> remote phosphor lamps are pretty awesome
[20:43:35] <furrywolf> http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting example
[20:44:12] <XXCoder> still unsure what CRI is
[20:44:26] <XXCoder> oh site has answer
[20:44:36] <XXCoder> "CRI (color rendering index) is a measure of how accurately a light source illuminates objects' true colors. Our LED lights have CRI values of up to 98, indicating that our LED lights are able to produce white light that approximates halogen or incandescent lighting and natural daylight. "
[21:10:06] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0-Sf8ohG2aY dang
[21:13:47] <XXCoder> oh furrywolf how do I tell if theres illegal taps on house electric system
[21:14:24] <furrywolf> http://images.craigslist.org/00C0C_ahGf3JNVLCT_600x450.jpg lol, shiny
[21:14:44] <XXCoder> whats it
[21:15:17] <furrywolf> "bontanical extractor"
[21:16:46] <furrywolf> for extracting active ingredients from botanicals.
[21:17:44] <XXCoder> pot?
[21:17:55] <humble_sea_bass> bong
[21:18:13] <XXCoder> furrywolf: my bro finally found it. it was indeed close to what I calculated
[21:18:24] <XXCoder> 2375 kwh a month
[21:18:44] <furrywolf> yes, pot. lol
[21:19:05] <XXCoder> 2375 kwh dunno if thats normal
[21:19:23] <furrywolf> for $5000 you too can make hash oil...
[21:19:57] <furrywolf> http://humboldt.craigslist.org/for/5073071864.html some fancy plumbing there
[21:22:11] <XXCoder> furrywolf: youre right house is using way too much kwh
[21:22:19] <XXCoder> its more than double average
[21:23:05] <malcom2073> Lol
[21:23:17] <SpeedEvil> Twice average doesn't mean that much
[21:23:34] <SpeedEvil> you really want to know what the comparators are for your property type
[21:23:56] <furrywolf> about once a month around here someone manages to blow up their house making hash oil. it's somewhat amusing. it's worse than moonshine still explosions...
[21:23:57] <SpeedEvil> it's clearly ridiculous for a small, well-insulated single room apartment without any AC needs.
[21:24:14] <malcom2073> Worse than meth lab explosions?
[21:24:29] <XXCoder> meth heh even if its not exploding it kills house anyway
[21:24:54] <SpeedEvil> I have problems making drugs.
[21:25:01] <malcom2073> SpeedEvil: You should stop
[21:25:09] <SpeedEvil> I couldn't legitimately sell stuff without a GC/MS/...
[21:25:43] <humble_sea_bass> 10lb botanical closed loop extractor ONE TIME DEAL - $5000 (Anywhere you want it)
[21:25:47] <humble_sea_bass> i love the title
[21:26:01] <humble_sea_bass> humbold gonna be humbold
[21:26:03] <XXCoder> http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/whyhigh.html nice gonna read it
[21:26:15] <furrywolf> a month or two ago two hash labs blew up less than an hour apart, in different cities, spreading the fire department out...
[21:27:13] <t12> theyre not hash labs theyre butane enthusiasts!
[21:27:17] <humble_sea_bass> what do they make hash oil with? dont they use butane or some quick boiling hydrocarbon or some such
[21:27:34] <malcom2073> XXCoder: killawatt, best $20 I ever spent
[21:27:40] <malcom2073> in terms of finding out what's using energy
[21:27:42] <XXCoder> malcom2073: has it yeah
[21:27:52] <XXCoder> hmm wonder where its at now
[21:27:54] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I want to make aerogel with the alcohol process
[21:27:58] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: which is similarly fun
[21:28:19] <SpeedEvil> ~600PSI/300C
[21:28:46] <furrywolf> the hash people use large amounts of butane... any leak quickly reaches the LEL...
[21:29:00] <t12> supercrit co2 is the real way to do it
[21:29:14] <t12> diy supercritical co2 is way more dangerous than butane though
[21:29:18] <XXCoder> heh if I designed hash lab, I would make it vent out fast
[21:29:20] <t12> in noncommercial rig
[21:30:06] <humble_sea_bass> explosion proofing is a costly endeavour
[21:30:40] <humble_sea_bass> lately I've been learning about fluid collections storage because of work with two different natural history museums
[21:31:25] <humble_sea_bass> a lot of specimens are preserved in methanol and ethanol
[21:31:52] <furrywolf> both of which stay liquid much better than butane does. )
[21:31:53] <furrywolf> :)
[21:32:20] <humble_sea_bass> so you can try and suppress the flashpoint by keeping the collections and labs at 55 degrees
[21:32:27] <XXCoder> one of things I want to play with is striling for making liquidfied air
[21:32:55] <humble_sea_bass> furrywolf: with out a doubt. open air butane is a crazy hazard
[21:33:38] <furrywolf> it's not intentionally open air...
[21:34:18] <humble_sea_bass> well i mean some jamoke watches it evaporate and they assume it is going away to the sky to see jesus
[21:34:29] <furrywolf> lol
[21:34:29] <humble_sea_bass> when in actuallity it is heavier than air
[21:34:44] <furrywolf> that's why you use a shiny stainless closed-loop system
[21:34:52] <humble_sea_bass> so every single outlet at std height is an ignition source
[21:35:49] <humble_sea_bass> so for labs. all outlets are omitted for storage, and the working areas have explosion proof outlets that still sit above the work bench
[21:36:32] <humble_sea_bass> using the closed loop system entails one being a sophisticated hash oil manufacturer.
[21:36:59] <humble_sea_bass> i'm sure they are all *watch a you tube video* -> EXPERT
[21:37:03] <furrywolf> lol
[21:37:16] <furrywolf> which they probably watch while sampling previous product...
[21:37:22] <humble_sea_bass> and the alure of a big boiler pot is just so damn great
[21:37:52] <humble_sea_bass> if i can make soup with it, then I can make hash, right!?
[21:38:12] <furrywolf> my solution is to have absolutely nothing to do with it. growing, using.. no.
[21:38:52] <humble_sea_bass> it is a good move to keep explosive and illegal things outside of the homestead
[21:44:36] <XXCoder> infinite of infinities https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mhkou9vxSMY
[21:45:24] * furrywolf just finds it amusing the variety of things that show up on craigslist
[22:31:44] <XXCoder> furrywolf: finally figured why it was so high
[22:31:47] <XXCoder> its bimonthly bill
[22:31:54] <XXCoder> so its actually half that amount lol
[22:33:31] <furrywolf> lol
[22:34:01] <XXCoder> yeah and half the amount IS somewhat close to average
[22:34:10] <XXCoder> bit high but large house too
[22:34:25] <XXCoder> winter 2 month bill was near 5k lol due to heat cost
[22:34:32] <XXCoder> 5k kwh
[22:34:47] <furrywolf> yeah, electric heat does that.
[22:35:01] <furrywolf> I have wood heat, although I never use it.
[22:35:13] <furrywolf> it doesn't get cold enough here to need heat...
[22:35:25] <XXCoder> wonder if centeral air conditioner uses less power or not
[22:38:19] <XXCoder> anyway yeah seems winter is major problem for this house
[22:38:26] <XXCoder> hard to get things war,
[22:38:28] <XXCoder> warm
[22:39:19] <furrywolf> then your best bet for saving money might be adding insulation (under floor and in attic, for example), installing double-glazed windows, installing window curtains, installing/replacing door weatherstripping, etc.
[22:39:41] <furrywolf> it's often much easier and cheaper to save power than to generate more
[22:39:46] <XXCoder> yeah not on house we dont own :)
[22:39:55] <XXCoder> we are considering moving next summer
[22:40:00] <XXCoder> because this house sucks
[22:40:05] <XXCoder> and this time, own
[22:40:21] <furrywolf> I wish I could afford a house.
[22:40:32] <XXCoder> well theres those tiny houses... lol
[22:40:50] <furrywolf> those don't count. :P
[22:40:59] <furrywolf> also, there's nothing tiny about my collection of tools and other crap.
[22:41:10] <XXCoder> honestly if I can let go crap I could own tiny house
[22:42:13] <furrywolf> that means you need more toys.
[22:42:28] <XXCoder> lol
[22:42:31] <XXCoder> no, I dont
[22:43:20] <furrywolf> how do you fit the bridgeport, plasma table, etc in the tiny house? :P
[22:43:35] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: tiny bridgeport house
[22:43:41] <XXCoder> actually if I had tiny house I would make shop
[22:44:04] <XXCoder> honestly all I need is microwave, oven, bedroom, restroom
[22:44:55] <furrywolf> lol
[22:45:14] <XXCoder> other option is earthship