#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-06-07

[00:01:56] <Gurwinder> alex4nder: Hi
[00:02:29] <Gurwinder> I am get error of python i.e. pyconfig.h is not found while I run make
[00:02:42] <Gurwinder> I have installed python on my OS
[00:03:04] <Gurwinder> How to get out of it?
[00:03:55] <furrywolf> does whatever you're compiling have a configure script or such that should be ran before running make?
[00:05:01] <Gurwinder> All those dependencies are installed.
[00:05:28] <furrywolf> ... that doesn't answer the question.
[00:06:24] <Gurwinder> I run configure wth --disable python
[00:07:48] <furrywolf> try not doing that? :)
[00:17:26] <Gurwinder> that part ran good but now, error is for
[00:18:00] <Gurwinder> furrywolf: [../lib/python/stepconf/pages.py] Error 1
[00:23:39] <furrywolf> look for the first error
[00:28:41] <Gurwinder> furrywolf: Thanks a lot, linuxcnc is now running successfully :)
[00:29:02] <furrywolf> I'm not sure I helped much... :P
[00:29:53] <Gurwinder> haha
[00:31:26] <Gurwinder> If I made changes in user_intf then how can I just compile that part only?
[00:31:35] <Gurwinder> Or I have to run make again?
[00:32:59] <furrywolf> make generally only recompiles files that changed
[00:33:46] <furrywolf> if you change a file included in lots of places, then it'll have to recompile all of those, of course. but if you just change one .c file, it'll usually recompile only it then relink.
[00:36:08] <Gurwinder> Got it :P
[01:04:42] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[01:21:44] <alex4nder> Gurwinder: hi
[01:22:05] <Gurwinder> alex4nder: hello
[01:22:24] <alex4nder> how's it?
[01:22:35] <Gurwinder> Good :)
[01:23:02] <Gurwinder> I have comiled linuxcnc successfully and linuxcnc is running well
[01:23:54] <Gurwinder> Are you able to gave me some detail about help pages or I have to talk directly with cmorley or other?
[01:24:53] <alex4nder> what do you want to know?
[01:26:18] <Gurwinder> I am going to work on help pages pncconf, but I found that they are well written
[01:26:31] <alex4nder> so you're just looking for work?
[01:26:41] <Gurwinder> Yes
[01:26:55] <Gurwinder> Some development work for GSoC
[01:27:24] <alex4nder> well I have stuff I need
[01:27:25] <alex4nder> haha
[01:27:31] <alex4nder> I just don't have time
[01:28:13] <Gurwinder> :P
[01:28:38] <alex4nder> there's a ton of stuff to work on
[01:28:47] <alex4nder> do you have a CNC project you actually want to build?
[01:29:51] <alex4nder> Gurwinder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mixkLB--_Q4 <- this is what I'm working on right now
[01:32:11] <Gurwinder> Hah, good. But am just want to do work which doesn't require any practical knowledge means to say I have to do that work which should be complete within one month
[01:32:37] <Gurwinder> I found one i.e. developing help page as my first contribution to linuxcnc
[02:09:47] <Deejay> moin
[02:11:22] <XXCoder> no
[04:55:55] <s1dev> I was using a Colchester (manual) lathe earlier today and the powerfeed disengaged when I was parting off after I took too aggressive of a cut which got me wondering: Is the power feed designed to disengage against an endstop or similiar?
[08:06:49] <_methods> some machines are
[08:06:54] <_methods> but never assume they are
[08:06:59] <_methods> or you will wreck things
[11:17:37] <Gurwinder> I am trying to run pncconf.py but got error :> cannot import name pages at line 54
[11:24:46] <andypugh> Gurwinder: How are you starting it?
[11:26:07] <Gurwinder> after compiling it I just go into src/emc/usr_intf/pncconf/ and type pyhton pncconf.py
[11:26:19] <andypugh> (Not that it should matter, the CNC menu entry for it just calls the file in usr/bin without any other setup)
[11:27:18] <tjtr33> Gurwinder, you are working on code for Google Soc? maybe try #linuxcnc-devel
[11:27:40] <Gurwinder> tjtr33: yes
[11:27:49] <Gurwinder> ok
[11:28:29] <tjtr33> i see you had few replies here but andypugh is very knowledgeable
[11:29:03] <andypugh> I am not very knoweldgable about this though.
[11:30:18] <Gurwinder> Ah, then just tell me how I can run pncconf after making some changes in it :P
[11:31:18] <andypugh> ./pncconf.py ought to work. But I am not sure what the error message youa re getting means.
[11:32:17] <tjtr33> ( and dont make changes, try to get it to work without changes, no one can predict result of 'some changes' )
[11:32:19] <Gurwinder> Oh, I think I got it. I'm trying to run pncconf and its htrough bin/ and type pncconf
[11:32:21] <Gurwinder> :P
[11:36:12] <tjtr33> bbl, but try to make your work environment like everyone else's, then other people can share common experience
[11:38:08] <alex4nder> Gurwinder: are you using run-in-place with your build?
[11:40:07] <Gurwinder> alex4nder: Didn't get you
[11:41:43] <andypugh> Generally when compiling from source you end up with what is known as a run-in-place installation in the linuxcnc-dev directory rather than installed in /usr/bin etc.
[11:41:44] <alex4nder> Gurwinder: if you don't provide a --prefix to configure, you can use scripts/rip-environment, and run all your code out of your source tree
[11:42:15] <andypugh> So, to run your own version of the code you need to run the script in linuxcnc-dev/scripts/rip-environment
[11:43:09] <andypugh> The syntax to run the script is a little strange as you need to run it in the context of the shell. So the command is typically . ../scripts/tip-environment
[11:43:22] <andypugh> ie dot space dot slash…
[11:43:55] <Gurwinder> ah, yeah. I'm running it in that way
[11:43:56] <andypugh> (or dot dot slash depending on where you are in the tree when you issue the command.
[11:44:08] <alex4nder> cool
[11:44:34] <andypugh> Well, if that isn’t working then I am out of idea.
[11:45:15] <Gurwinder> andypugh: Its Running successfully :)
[11:45:32] <andypugh> Ah, jolly good.
[14:08:56] * JT-Shop is up to bat again and the score is JT 0 to Squirrels 2
[14:09:58] <andypugh> <cheers for the squirrels>
[14:10:28] <andypugh> Our local squirrel is acting a bit funny today.
[14:11:25] <andypugh> Lying in shady spots with his chin on the ground. To anthropomprhise he looks overheated and down in the dumps.
[14:12:25] <JT-Shop> it's quite warm here today too
[14:12:56] * JT-Shop thinks the squirrels can wait till dinner time like all the other animals
[14:22:05] <furrywolf> no squirrels here today, but I got glomped by the neighbor's puppies again working on this generator.
[14:30:52] <JT-Shop> andypugh, what do you think of the chap trying to get someone to write a gui for Dan Heeks old pocket routine?
[14:31:20] <andypugh> I am not all that sure what is going on there.
[14:31:49] <andypugh> So I have no real thoughts on the matter.
[14:33:48] <JT-Shop> I'm not sure anymore either, at first I thought it was his code but it turns out to be Dan Heeks old code
[14:36:30] <andypugh> Which was never easy to use, so bringing it back out into the open is probably a good thing.
[14:37:51] <JT-Shop> he was just working on the pocket part I think, he linked me to libarea which is the pocket path generator
[14:40:30] <andypugh> My interest is limited now that I have integrated CAM in Inventor. (I just wish I had the Pro version, which oes so much more)
[14:41:21] <andypugh> Alcohol is an anaesthetic and a muscle relaxant isn’t it? Therefore it is bound to be good for my back?
[14:41:44] <cradek> JT-Shop: libarea's code can't be _combined_ with linuxcnc because the licenses are incompatible. but one program generating gcode for the other program to run is NOT combining. so the answer to your question is it depends.
[14:42:53] <cradek> andypugh: it's good for what ails you, whatever that is
[14:43:10] <andypugh> His plan is to have it as an add-in for converstaitonal programming in the controller
[14:43:37] <cradek> I don't know what add-in means exactly
[14:43:37] <andypugh> So integration to LinuxCNC would be more closer than normal.
[14:43:52] <cradek> yeah that might not be possible.
[14:43:59] <andypugh> I think he want to integrate it with Gmoccapy.
[14:44:04] <cradek> again, it depends
[14:44:09] <Tom_itx> andypugh what's that carousel comp you were working on?
[14:44:13] <Tom_itx> tool changer code?
[14:44:20] <andypugh> It’s a comp for carousels :-)
[14:44:26] <Tom_itx> duh
[14:44:28] <cradek> ha
[14:44:48] <cradek> if you get a stupid answer, does that necessarily mean the question was stupid?
[14:44:52] <andypugh> It understands the shortest way to a gray-code tool pocket mainly
[14:45:00] <cradek> (I know the other way is true)
[14:45:44] <Tom_itx> just wondered if it was something tenn pete could use
[14:45:58] <andypugh> Yes.
[14:46:06] <andypugh> Written partly with him in mind
[14:46:14] <Tom_itx> hah
[14:46:29] <andypugh> I just wish he would get on with it.
[14:46:31] <JT-Shop> cradek, I kinda suspected that
[14:46:36] <Tom_itx> don't we all...
[14:47:06] <andypugh> I have written a full Vismach practice model and a new component all to make it easyier for these guys, and they still act scared.
[14:47:24] <JT-Shop> squirrel guard #1 removed and #3 built from the squirrel ruined #2 is in place
[14:47:31] <andypugh> (I don’t even have a toolchanger myself)
[14:48:12] <JT-Shop> I have one but I'd have to replace the spindle motor and drive to use LinuxCNC :(
[14:51:55] <pcw_home> I think Pete go stuck on spindle orient (PID, analog and all) but I really suspect the
[14:51:56] <pcw_home> VFD DC braking function would work OK over modbus if the rotate was slow enough
[14:51:58] <pcw_home> Pete rejected the idea because apparently no-one does it that way
[14:52:24] <andypugh> The Vismach demo comp does orient too.
[14:53:11] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure he's clear how to do it
[14:53:12] <andypugh> Tom_itx: This is the manpage for the carousel comp: http://www.pastebin.ca/3020784
[14:53:21] <pcw_home> That looks really neat
[14:55:00] <Tom_itx> it does
[14:55:42] <andypugh> I think I need to do something about the component name in the manpage…
[14:56:49] <andypugh> It started off as a much more capable component, and then I realised that I had written a two-purpose component that would be better as two separate ones.
[14:57:17] <andypugh> There is a HAL-pin sequencer component too, but I am less sure about the utility of that one.
[14:59:08] <andypugh> Manpage for sequencer: http://www.pastebin.ca/3020789
[14:59:58] <JT-Shop> my VMC has a geneva carousel that "homes" by making a full revolution to find pocket 1 then continue to the pocket currently in use then loads that tool information to the control
[15:00:44] <andypugh> I have wondered if the carousel comp needs to grow a homing mode
[15:02:03] <JT-Shop> I think mine does 8 pockets and starts to count at pocket 1, so I assume there is a sensor or target for pocket 1
[15:02:26] <JT-Shop> and one sensor for the geneva mechanism
[15:10:05] <JT-Shop> I don't see a pin to set the current tool number without calling a TnM6
[15:10:14] <andypugh> OK, so yours might be an “index” encoded carousel rather than a “gray” coded onr
[15:10:43] <andypugh> So it looks for index, then increments every time it sees a tool position go past
[15:12:11] <JT-Shop> yea, it is an index type and I assume it only has one target for tool one
[15:12:41] <JT-Shop> my CHNC is an absolute encoder that uses gray code iirc
[15:13:24] <andypugh> So, you could use my comp on the CHNC, if you wanted to spend ages fixing something that aint broke.
[15:15:49] <JT-Shop> I use wsum to get the number from the 4 inputs and classicladder to do the actual carosel moving
[15:16:39] <andypugh> There is a gray-code HAL comp now too.
[15:17:43] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/gray2bin.9.html But you still need the wsum to assemble the bits.
[15:19:05] <JT-Shop> I'm looking at gray2bin but I'm not sure what it sends out?
[15:19:52] <andypugh> If the input is up to 32 bits of gray-code the output is the binary equivalent
[15:21:46] <JT-Shop> I need it the other way around, I get the binary from the 4 inputs and convert that to decimal for my classicladder comparison
[15:21:58] <andypugh> so… Gray-code decimal 5 is 0111. If you pass binary 0111 (normally decimal 7) the output is 0101 (decimal 5)
[15:29:06] * JT-Shop goes to fill up the corn feeder and see if it becomes JT1 Squirrels 2
[15:33:34] <furrywolf> meh. good news: generator runs great, puts out full power, etc. bad news: the oil smoke cloud obscures the neighborhood in the process.
[15:33:35] <andypugh> You could just change your project to be squirrel-feeding.
[15:34:16] <Tom_itx> squirrel-carousel
[15:34:24] <furrywolf> I'm guessing a broken oil ring or something. it burns a LOT of oil. like, impressive that it stays running.
[15:35:31] <furrywolf> there's no blowby at all, though. wtf?
[15:37:06] <SpeedEvil> miht it just be oil in the exhaust?
[15:37:21] <furrywolf> nah, I ran it for 15 mins with no change at all, just to be sure.
[15:38:14] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Ah - so your neighbourhood looks better when obscured by choking clouds of smoke?
[15:38:51] <SpeedEvil> If california mandates extra clean air features - maybe this is the Beijing setting?
[15:38:56] <furrywolf> it's a brand new head, valves, stem seal, etc, so I don't think the oil is coming from the head...
[15:42:59] <andypugh> Have you accidentlly fuelled it with diesel?
[15:43:39] <furrywolf> no
[15:43:46] <furrywolf> fresh gasoline
[15:46:16] <JT-Shop> well that didn't take long JT vs Squirrels is now 0 - 3
[15:46:45] <JT-Shop> I feed the squirrels once a day, trying to stop them from unloading the feeder all at once
[15:47:19] <JT-Shop> time for my B game... I don't feel like cleaning a bunch of squirrels
[15:48:52] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Have you seen this? Squirrels are not stupid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsuVLsDyln4
[15:49:36] <furrywolf> so, should I spend $22 for a new honda ring set, or $10 for a complete aftermarket piston with rings?
[15:50:31] <JT-Shop> I havn't seen that and I can verify that tree rats are smart little buggers
[15:53:34] <furrywolf> that video shows why it's impossible to keep squirrels out of bird feeders.
[15:54:13] <furrywolf> also, that squirrels would be good at playing super mario world.
[15:54:40] <JT-Shop> well it's not impossible to keep them out...
[15:58:36] * furrywolf doesn't feed wild animals, and thus doesn't have to worry
[15:59:51] <furrywolf> if we have wolves or coyotes, I might consider it, but squirrels and birds? fuck no.
[16:00:49] <Roguish> little GLADE heolp please. when I open any example GLADE file (even while lcnc is running) I get error '....required catalogs are unavailable: gladevcp' waz up?
[16:02:03] <andypugh> GladeVCP spews out lots of error messages that can be ignored. Does it actually work?
[16:02:23] <andypugh> (Sorry, I mean Glade, not GladeVCP_
[16:02:53] <Roguish> GLADE runs, but can't find the gladeVCP widgets.
[16:04:30] <andypugh> I used to know the answer to this.
[16:05:31] <andypugh> Have you checked the things here? http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/gladevcp.html#gladevcp:Prerequisites (glade-gtk2)
[16:06:49] <Roguish> oh, yeah, been all over that. actually have 2 glade installs now. the latest apt-get installs 3.12.1
[16:08:25] <Roguish> have 2 lcnc installs. both master. 1 is regular updater. the other is a git pull and compiled.
[16:08:45] <Roguish> same issue with both
[16:11:48] <Roguish> ok, watched a bit closer. secondary error ( or maybe the real thing) 'tool-sensor.glade targets Gtk+2.16' and 'but this version of glade is for Gtk+3 only'
[16:14:23] <Roguish> ok, if I go back the the previous Glade of 3.8, it seems to work. moral of story: don't update GLADE.
[16:14:44] <furrywolf> "don't update anything" seems to be a common theme with linuxcnc.
[16:15:44] * JT-Shop just learned something about new mower spindles... the grease fittings are finger tight and there is no grease on the inside
[16:16:16] * furrywolf isn't sure they're supposed to be that way
[16:16:19] <JT-Shop> Roguish, did you install dev?
[16:16:45] <Roguish> JT-ShopL what do you mean dev?
[16:17:01] <Roguish> sorry, fat fingers......
[16:18:00] <zeeshan> linuxcnc-dev
[16:18:25] <Roguish> yes. have a dev install.
[16:18:33] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PISTON-KIT-for-Honda-GX200-GX-200-6-5HP-ENGINE-RINGS-PIN-CLIP-M-PK15-/360603282374 it's really hard to justify $22 for rings vs $11 for complete piston...
[16:19:25] <furrywolf> it's actually illegal to put that piston in this engine, but I don't think CARB is going to be checking generators. :P
[16:20:27] <zeeshan> ha ha
[16:20:28] <zeeshan> you live in cali
[16:20:33] <furrywolf> yes :P
[16:20:39] <zeeshan> the worst place for emissions
[16:20:49] <zeeshan> modify your car? BAM ticket
[16:20:58] <zeeshan> actually more like bam impound
[16:21:11] <andypugh> I suspect that CARB would be happy with any new piston in your particular engine.
[16:21:19] <furrywolf> and the particular generator I'm working on now is the california-specific version, complete with a special piston with extra rings (lower oil consumption), a charcoal canister and a complete evap system...
[16:21:27] <zeeshan> wow
[16:21:28] <Roguish> zeeshan: not really, just keep out of state plates like so many do.....
[16:21:42] <furrywolf> andypugh: honda sells a special california-only version of this generator, with a very different piston.
[16:22:06] <andypugh> Yeah, but your _particular_ piston is currently an emissions nightmare,
[16:22:12] <furrywolf> I can convert to a non-california piston for a lot less than I can buy the special rings for the california piston for.
[16:22:15] <Roguish> violate the 10 day grace period for new residents
[16:22:51] <furrywolf> zeeshan: this part of california isn't as bad, as we only have emissions inspections on vehicle purchase, not repeatedly like the southern part of the state.
[16:22:58] <zeeshan> ah
[16:23:11] <JT-Shop> wonderful the new spindles have metric grease fittings and the old spindles have inch grease fittings and my box of grease fittings are all inch...
[16:23:26] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: lol
[16:23:46] <furrywolf> I guess I need to pop the piston out and inspect it... it's burning a LOT of oil. like, there may be serious damage hidden down there.
[16:23:52] * JT-Shop goes back to bat against the squirrels
[16:23:56] <furrywolf> I've never seen such oil smoke before.
[16:23:59] <andypugh> furrywolf: We have vehicle inspections annually here, anf have had for 50 years. It’s probably a good thing.
[16:23:59] <Tom_itx> don't mix the grease either.. metric grease just won't work on an inch fitting
[16:24:06] <Roguish> furrywolf: where the heck is that? gotta pass smog test every other year everywhere
[16:24:22] <furrywolf> andypugh: eh, as long as your vehicle isn't a danger to others, none of the government's business.
[16:24:48] <andypugh> Yeah, well, our inspection is mainly to check that the brakes work and the wheels won’t fall off.
[16:25:08] <furrywolf> Roguish: the northern part of the state. once you get up to humboldt, del norte, trinity, etc counties, you only smog on purchase. (in theory, the seller smogs, but in reality, the buyer does)
[16:25:19] <andypugh> But excessive emissions can be conisidered a danger to others.
[16:25:22] <Roguish> cal doesn't inspect that any more. just smog
[16:25:53] <Roguish> furrywolf: i'm in the bay area for 30 years now.
[16:25:54] <andypugh> Ah, inspecting emissions but not safety sounds daft to me.
[16:26:04] <furrywolf> yep. we don't care if you have brakes, as long as the emissions are good. :P
[16:26:17] <furrywolf> it doesn't even have to be drivable. they'll smog a vehicle on a trailer. :P
[16:26:23] <Roguish> decades ago there were safety inspections.
[16:27:14] <zeeshan> hmm where to buy a 3/4"x.032"x93" bandsaw blade right now!
[16:27:21] <Roguish> no longer. at least in the Bay Area. just smog, every other year. and pretty hard to get around. (no impossible though)
[16:27:25] <zeeshan> the store i'd go to just closed :/
[16:27:55] <Deejay> gn8
[16:28:17] <furrywolf> harbor freight has a few sizes, but I don't know about that one
[16:28:29] <zeeshan> i wonder if homedepot will have
[16:29:22] <andypugh> Talking about cars. For reasons I can’t recall now, I watched Fast and Furious last night. It was just like all the old car films, where 120 is needle-bending fast and any car can always go faster by changing down a gear.
[16:29:27] <furrywolf> "Certified for All States Except California, High quality aftermarket short block" lol
[16:30:44] <furrywolf> http://www.hlsproparts.com/Honda-GX200-6-5-HP-Shortblock-p/h01200.htm is too cheap
[16:31:32] <andypugh> Though for a sense of real speed on residential streets, and all legal: https://youtu.be/9LB2KI9PX2w
[16:31:51] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: silver solder is awesome
[16:31:59] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: solder it back together
[16:32:00] <furrywolf> I don't know if I'd trust a china engine for generator duty, though.
[16:32:06] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: 2 teeth are broken
[16:32:13] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: solder them back on!
[16:32:14] <zeeshan> it works okay in horizontal mode, but in vertical mode
[16:32:22] <SpeedEvil> :)
[16:32:23] <furrywolf> ... a bandsaw blade with two broken teeth is perfectly usable.
[16:32:24] <zeeshan> its impossible to hold the piece if pipe im cutting
[16:32:31] <zeeshan> (of
[16:32:40] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: run the blade backwards
[16:32:44] <SpeedEvil> (probably kidding)
[16:32:56] <furrywolf> the one in my saw is down to about half the teeth, and it still cuts... :P
[16:33:11] <zeeshan> its not fun when the broken teeth pass you
[16:33:13] <furrywolf> in one spot there's 6" with no teeth
[16:33:15] <zeeshan> and jump the work piece
[16:33:36] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: I wonder if a simple properly sized hole with the pipe through it would help
[16:33:59] <zeeshan> its mandrel bends
[16:34:02] <zeeshan> not just straight pipe
[16:34:06] <SpeedEvil> ah
[16:34:58] <furrywolf> sawzall
[16:35:18] <Tom_itx> zeeshan how'd those pipes come out?
[16:37:10] <andypugh> Can you cut-out the broken teeth and re-weld shorter?
[16:37:40] <furrywolf> does have have a band welding machine? :P
[16:37:43] <furrywolf> he have
[16:37:57] <andypugh> (Assuming you have a proper bandsaw with a blade-welder on the side)
[16:38:47] <furrywolf> at that size, my guess is "no"
[16:39:03] <Tom_itx> we all live in 500 yr old houses too :)
[16:39:03] <andypugh> I cut everything with a hacksaw. It’s bearable up to about 3” bar.
[16:39:27] <furrywolf> you're in better shape than I am. I cut anything thicker than a 1/4" grade 3 bolt with a power tool. :P
[16:40:21] <furrywolf> I had to cut some hollow 3/8" bushings today... I parted them on the lathe after deciding the hacksaw was too much work.
[16:41:09] <furrywolf> speaking of which... how do I stop my cutoff tool holder from randomly rotating? even if I tighten the screw to where I'm close to snapping it, it tends to rotate when pushed into the workpiece, since the blade is on one side and the screw is in the center...
[16:41:51] <zeeshan> which pipes Tom_itx
[16:41:55] <furrywolf> it'd be nice if sherline had machined a key into the bottom of the holder or something...
[16:41:59] <zeeshan> the notches?
[16:42:07] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am not able to visualise the situation
[16:42:28] <XXCoder> same
[16:42:46] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/urYCtja.jpg <- notches tacked ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr4yJXRdc6Q <- video of notching
[16:43:15] <XXCoder> furrywolf: any pics?
[16:43:20] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/H5jA7IE.jpg
[16:43:29] <zeeshan> fuel lines, brake likes, leak checks done
[16:43:29] <zeeshan> :D
[16:43:40] <furrywolf> andypugh: http://www.sherline.com/3002pg.htm screws to the t-slots on the table with one screw on one side. the blade is on the other side. when you push it into the workpiece, it gets bumped counterclockwise, even if I tighten the screw really tight.
[16:43:43] <zeeshan> gotta fix up those obnoxious red and blue hoses
[16:45:14] <XXCoder> hey zeeshan can you fix my van? lol
[16:45:19] <XXCoder> make it kickass ;)
[16:45:29] <zeeshan> lol
[16:45:33] <zeeshan> put a jet engine in it
[16:45:41] <XXCoder> nah
[16:45:44] <XXCoder> helicoper engine
[16:46:27] <XXCoder> furrywolf: any space to add clamps that push on sides so can't rotate?
[16:46:40] <XXCoder> those t slot clamps
[16:46:45] <furrywolf> I'm tempted to mill a slot in the bottom of it and key it to the t-slot, but it seems there must be a simpler way, as sherline isn't known for defective-by-design.
[16:47:01] <andypugh> furrywolf: See how this actually-engineered toolpost has holes for location dowels? You could add them. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/seeking-multifix-advice-209324/index2.html
[16:47:02] <furrywolf> all my hoses are black. :P
[16:47:22] <zeeshan> yea i want black hoses
[16:47:31] <zeeshan> i put those hoses 2 years ago. was all i had
[16:47:37] <zeeshan> blue line is air hose line lol
[16:47:43] <zeeshan> that im using for pcv and breather
[16:48:27] <andypugh> But a millled slot and a higher-than-normal T-nut would be a good solution.
[16:48:36] <furrywolf> I could machine a fancy little holder piece... a tab on one side the width of the t-slot, and a square recess on the other that the cutoff tool holder fits into snugly...
[16:48:56] <andypugh> The tool block on my CNC lathe works that way.
[16:50:15] <andypugh> (to avoid ambiguity, a long and high T-nut that fits in a slot in the tool-block base)
[16:50:21] <furrywolf> I just can't shake the feeling it's either a very simple fix that's needed or it's something I'm doing wrong... sherline is generally known for quality and not stupidity...
[16:52:12] <zeeshan> whats the trade off for having more teeth on a bandsaw blade
[16:52:42] <furrywolf> hrmm, the rear-mount spacer block uses TWO t-nuts...
[16:52:50] <Jymmm> zeeshan: finer cuts
[16:52:56] <Jymmm> err finish
[16:53:14] <XXCoder> more teeth to resharp heh
[16:53:17] <Jymmm> zeeshan: less teeth = rip as fast as you can
[16:53:47] <zeeshan> theres better engagement
[16:53:52] <Jymmm> http://www.gsmarena.com/huawei_ascend_mate2_4g-5949.php
[16:53:56] <zeeshan> wondering 14tpi vs 18tpi
[16:54:05] <Jymmm> for?
[16:54:11] <zeeshan> metals
[16:54:16] <Jymmm> alum?
[16:54:30] <Jymmm> bandsaw or table saw?
[16:54:57] <furrywolf> <zeeshan> whats the trade off for having more teeth on a bandsaw blade
[16:54:59] <zeeshan> nm found my answer.
[16:55:20] <Jymmm> 60 tooth carbin tipped on a table saw does a FANTASTIC finish
[16:55:24] <furrywolf> not <zeeshan> whats the trade off for having more teeth on a table saw blade
[16:55:27] <Jymmm> on aluminum
[16:55:30] <zeeshan> lol furrywolf
[16:55:31] <zeeshan> :D
[16:56:05] <XXCoder> oh yeah, apparently my van started burning oil a little bit
[16:56:16] <XXCoder> Im guessing its block cracked or seals failed
[16:56:18] <furrywolf> so, should I tear this generator all apart now and see what the piston looks like, or just order a kit and deal with it when it gets here?
[16:56:26] <zeeshan> tear it aAPRT!
[16:56:30] <zeeshan> so you can order more shit!
[16:56:34] <XXCoder> indeed
[16:56:34] <furrywolf> a cracked block doesn't cause oil burning. more than likely you have worn rings or valve guides.
[16:56:36] <Jymmm> XXCoder: like blue smoke?
[16:56:46] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah take pictures in way in too
[16:56:53] <zeeshan> XXCoder: 100% worn rings
[16:56:55] <Jymmm> or a bad head gasket
[16:56:56] <XXCoder> Jymmm: nope just smell.
[16:56:58] <zeeshan> or broken ring
[16:57:05] <zeeshan> if it came all the sudden, its broken ring
[16:57:11] <furrywolf> bad head gaskets don't cause oil burning.
[16:57:28] <zeeshan> if it happened over a couple weeks then worn ring
[16:57:31] <zeeshan> furrywolf: depends on block!
[16:57:38] <XXCoder> if it is indeed piston rings theres not much I can do besides just keep driving
[16:59:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I've never seen one... the head gaskets seem to always blow between combustion and water, or very rarely combustion and pushrods... never seen one with a combustion-to-pressurized-oil failure... and it'd probably carbonize and seal itself anyway...
[16:59:10] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i totally agree
[16:59:14] <furrywolf> my truck doesn't even have pressurized oil in the head gasket. :)
[16:59:16] <zeeshan> i kaboomed one on the mitusbishi before
[16:59:24] <zeeshan> it was mixing oil coolant and burning it
[16:59:24] <zeeshan> lol
[16:59:51] <furrywolf> my favorite is still the injector cups on a powerstroke... when they go, it pumps the oil into the cooling system. all of it.
[16:59:59] <zeeshan> lol
[17:00:08] <zeeshan> XXCoder: the saying goes..
[17:00:10] <XXCoder> zeeshan: I remember my old car. it had so nearly no power, it was mixing oil water and sending it into cynders and burning em
[17:00:15] <XXCoder> that was fun one
[17:00:15] <zeeshan> drive it to the ground
[17:00:37] <zeeshan> when youre replacing 1 quart every 500 miles
[17:00:40] <zeeshan> its time to call it a day
[17:00:42] <furrywolf> my truck uses a hydraulic hose from the block up to the head, with only oil drainback in the headgasket.
[17:00:42] <XXCoder> odd thing is it didnt smoke anything
[17:00:56] <zeeshan> XXCoder: did it come all the sudden?
[17:01:00] <zeeshan> or gradual
[17:01:08] <XXCoder> zeeshan: I was adding quart a week and I drive maybe 50 miles a week back then. couldnt afford new car
[17:01:09] <zeeshan> you might be lucky and it might be your PCV system
[17:01:20] <furrywolf> of course, the engine in my truck is fairly unique. :P
[17:01:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: f150?
[17:01:32] <XXCoder> pcv hmm researching now
[17:01:42] <zeeshan> XXCoder: an easy way to check if it's bad rings
[17:01:55] <zeeshan> open the oil cap while the car is running
[17:02:03] <zeeshan> and put your hand on it, if you feel strong pulses
[17:02:06] <furrywolf> zeeshan: jeep 230 tornado. first production overhead cam engine.
[17:02:11] <zeeshan> you have worn out rings
[17:02:20] <zeeshan> to quantify "strong" compare it to one of your family members cars
[17:02:21] <XXCoder> nice I will do that today
[17:02:29] <furrywolf> eh, strong pulses is normal. if smoke comes out rather than air goes in, then you have a problem.
[17:02:37] <zeeshan> nahh man
[17:02:45] <XXCoder> other 2 my bro's cars is post 2010
[17:02:49] <zeeshan> broken rings / worn out rings really have a shit load of blowby
[17:02:53] <zeeshan> you can feel it from a mile away
[17:02:55] <XXCoder> 2015 and umm 2013 I think
[17:02:57] <zeeshan> its almost like exhaust pulses
[17:03:03] <zeeshan> that strong..
[17:03:24] <zeeshan> and youre right, youll also see a lot of white smoke
[17:03:28] <zeeshan> white/blue
[17:03:38] <furrywolf> zeeshan: that's what I don't get about this generator... it has NO blowby. like, none. which I find hard to correlate with the horrible level of oil burning presumably from the rings...
[17:03:43] <zeeshan> (a bit of white smoke is okay, that is just condensation )
[17:04:02] <zeeshan> haha
[17:04:05] <zeeshan> maybe its a blocked pcv?
[17:04:16] <zeeshan> that stuff will launch puffs of blue smoke everywhere
[17:04:22] <furrywolf> it's somehow getting lots of oil into the cylinder, but no exhaust out...
[17:04:23] <zeeshan> theres gotta be some sort of crankcase ventilation
[17:04:35] <XXCoder> I think my van has broken TPS too, idle vary a little and sometimes gray smoke which apparently means fuel is too rich
[17:04:38] <furrywolf> the ventilation is a hose from the valve cover to the air box. that's what I pulled to check for blowby.
[17:04:51] <zeeshan> well both of you guys need to do a leak down test
[17:04:55] <zeeshan> or just a simple compression test
[17:05:01] <furrywolf> XXCoder: grey can also be oil, and a bad TPS doesn't tend to cause running rich.
[17:05:03] <zeeshan> before you start taking things apart :P
[17:05:30] <XXCoder> furrywolf: hmm gray smoke isnt very common from my van, just once a long while
[17:05:37] <XXCoder> and small amount
[17:05:45] <furrywolf> running rich at idle, without a minimum fuel trim reached obdii code, is probably oxygen sensors.... if it's not oil smoke instead.
[17:06:13] <zeeshan> lemme find a video of my rx7 burning oil
[17:06:16] <XXCoder> I'll check what zee said first
[17:06:20] <zeeshan> (engine has perfect compression, nothing to do with rings)
[17:06:26] <furrywolf> with a closed-loop system, no bad sensor other than an oxygen sensor will cause a prolonged rich condition without the ecu getting pissed off when it reaches its minimum fuel trim.
[17:06:29] <XXCoder> and maybe clean pcv (shouldnt be too hard)
[17:06:34] <zeeshan> it was pressurizing the turbo seals
[17:06:38] <zeeshan> and burning oil out the exhaustr
[17:06:56] <furrywolf> unfortunately, this generator doesn't have turbo seals... likely related to it not having a turbo.
[17:07:09] <XXCoder> furrywolf: would oxy sensor cause what I call "pissed off idle" which means once a while rough idle as it stays parked waiting
[17:07:19] <andypugh> Just to point out that it is possible, my bike has a completely dry head gasket. The only holes in it are for cylinders and head studs (and the cam-chain tunnel)
[17:07:31] <XXCoder> almost like its angry on not moving for a while
[17:08:00] <zeeshan> damn it where is this video
[17:08:12] <furrywolf> XXCoder: it could, yes. what year is it, and do you have an obdii scanner fancy enough to show real-time sensor info?
[17:08:21] <zeeshan> andypugh: that is bad ass
[17:08:25] <XXCoder> it is. what should I look for
[17:08:28] <zeeshan> i wish engines were more like that.
[17:08:38] <zeeshan> and used an external serviceable passage for coolant/oil to head.
[17:08:45] <XXCoder> its bluetooth and I use troque which can show real time info
[17:08:54] <zeeshan> not passing them through an area that is critical.
[17:08:57] <furrywolf> my truck uses a hydraulic hose to get oil to the head, then lets it drain back with a drain at the rear and the timing chain at the front.
[17:09:22] <zeeshan> furrywolf: do a compression test
[17:09:42] <furrywolf> zeeshan: compression test is always crap because, like most small engines, it has a decompressor.
[17:10:00] <zeeshan> leak dwon!
[17:10:03] <zeeshan> leak down
[17:10:06] <furrywolf> you'll only get a lower-than-the-normal-really-low if it has no rings or other stupidity...
[17:10:32] <zeeshan> i cant find the oil burning video, but i did find something else
[17:10:33] <furrywolf> it holds the exhaust valve open for the first half of the compression stroke... good for pullstarting, bad for a compression test. :)
[17:10:33] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXLXl6G-fvU
[17:10:34] <zeeshan> haha
[17:10:42] <zeeshan> im so stupid to start it without heads, but i did :)
[17:11:16] <furrywolf> I wish I'd taken a video of an rx7 I saw once... the second you started it, it shot the oil dipstick about 10ft into the air.
[17:11:24] <zeeshan> lol
[17:11:33] <furrywolf> about as much exhaust came out the dipstick tube as did the tailpipe.
[17:12:01] <XXCoder> this is different model than my car but very similiar engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=W63W3DtBCwA#t=255
[17:12:14] <XXCoder> pcv is that hose connection near tool
[17:12:30] <furrywolf> eh? start it without heads? that looks like starting an engine with no exhaust.
[17:12:50] <furrywolf> generally engines need at least one head to start. :)
[17:12:57] <zeeshan> i mean no exhaust
[17:12:58] <zeeshan> whops
[17:13:00] <furrywolf> and very few will start without all the heads!
[17:13:12] <zeeshan> i meant to say headers,
[17:13:12] <zeeshan> :[
[17:13:28] <furrywolf> I've started engines with no exhaust plenty of times
[17:13:32] <furrywolf> the loudest was a ford 460
[17:13:43] <XXCoder> muffler?
[17:13:45] <zeeshan> its not good for the valves when they get hot
[17:13:51] <zeeshan> thermal fatigue the crap out of em
[17:14:13] <furrywolf> the neatest was a ford 5.0 with the factory manifolds on, but nothing on the collectors... each cylinder would emit an exhaust pulse in a different direction, hitting the ground in a different spot.
[17:14:15] <zeeshan> fak i wanna run it rich without headers and see more flame balls
[17:14:58] <furrywolf> it was very interesting to see a single pipe making four separate spots on the dirt
[17:15:01] <zeeshan> nice furrywolf
[17:15:07] <zeeshan> that is interesting
[17:15:17] * zeeshan is getting back into cars
[17:15:21] <zeeshan> i missed them after a 2 year break
[17:15:46] <furrywolf> something about how the waves bounced around the stock manifolds. one of those things headers are probably supposed to fix. :)
[17:16:15] <zeeshan> it's kinda cool to realize how an engine is basically pulsing.
[17:16:24] <zeeshan> you really see it when you start it without headers
[17:16:30] <zeeshan> you can see each individual flame ball
[17:17:10] <zeeshan> if it wasnt for a flywheel
[17:17:16] <zeeshan> you'd be feeling th at nonsense :p
[17:17:18] <furrywolf> nah. it'd be cooler (no pun intended) if they DIDN'T pulse. that's wasted energy there. an ideal engine would open the valves at 0psi. :)
[17:17:53] <zeeshan> thats true
[17:17:55] <zeeshan> impossible!
[17:17:57] <furrywolf> (the pun, of course, being that letting the exhaust gasses expand fully would lower their temperature)
[17:18:57] <furrywolf> and that combustion is still occuring even after the gasses are in the exhaust system shows there's even more energy being wasted...
[17:19:48] <XXCoder> nissan quest pcv is just few bucks
[17:20:10] <zeeshan> XXCoder: got an air compressor?
[17:20:17] <XXCoder> nope unfortunately
[17:20:25] <zeeshan> wanna blow with your mouth?
[17:20:27] <XXCoder> should get one. isnt it like $20?
[17:20:28] <zeeshan> (ive done it)
[17:20:29] <zeeshan> haha
[17:20:48] <zeeshan> you just pull out the valve, put some hose on it(clean!)
[17:20:51] <zeeshan> and blow into it,
[17:20:57] <zeeshan> it should only let air flow in one direction
[17:21:20] <zeeshan> (towards the plenum/intake manifold)
[17:21:25] <XXCoder> ok
[17:22:01] * furrywolf resists the obvious jokes
[17:22:35] <zeeshan> yes it looks like you're blowing a black guy
[17:22:41] <zeeshan> but shit's gotta be diagnosed.
[17:22:42] <zeeshan> :p
[17:23:01] <zeeshan> man when winter comes
[17:23:10] <zeeshan> it will be back into linuxcnc mode
[17:23:21] <zeeshan> i want a surface grinder
[17:23:30] <XXCoder> furrywolf: https://aestheticsofthenerdy.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/blow_me_nes_t_shirt_logo.jpeg
[17:23:38] <XXCoder> so I have experence already lol
[17:24:43] <zeeshan> about my earlier q
[17:24:43] <zeeshan> http://www.waybuilder.net/free-ed/Resources/Trades/Indust/machinist01/pics/ch06.h29.gif
[17:25:03] * zeeshan definitely has the wrong blade on there
[17:25:28] <andypugh> 28 litres. 4 Cylinders., no exhaust. Narvellous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlPbhGeMu4U
[17:25:40] <zeeshan> nice!
[17:26:12] <zeeshan> i wonder what those firefly things are
[17:26:16] <zeeshan> mine shot those out too
[17:26:25] <andypugh> Lumps of coke, I reckon
[17:27:02] <zeeshan> so areas of combustion that produce speckles of carbon
[17:27:06] <zeeshan> that are glowing cause of the temp?
[17:27:29] <andypugh> Yes. It’s hard to get good combustion in a 7-litre cylinder.
[17:27:45] <zeeshan> haha
[17:27:51] <zeeshan> dude even my dinky little cylinders were producing it
[17:28:00] <zeeshan> .75l
[17:28:22] <zeeshan> i was scared at the time it was part of my valves metal pieces.
[17:28:29] <zeeshan> +thinking
[17:28:42] <furrywolf> andypugh: eh? there's marine diesels getting excellent combustion in a cylinders closer to 7000l... :P
[17:29:05] <andypugh> Not with carbs though.
[17:30:00] <zeeshan> andypugh: you work with controls
[17:30:06] <andypugh> I do, yes.
[17:30:13] <zeeshan> do you know of a cheap way to monitor cylinder pressures
[17:30:27] <zeeshan> other than drilling a spark plug and putting some crazy expensive transducer
[17:30:51] <andypugh> There are instrumented glow-plugs aimed at production use now. Possibly also spark plugs
[17:30:55] <furrywolf> yeah, you put a cheap transducer. :P
[17:31:01] <zeeshan> it cant be cheap
[17:31:04] <zeeshan> cause it needs the response time
[17:31:26] <zeeshan> i'd REALLY love to have full access to #7 cylinder pressure profile
[17:31:27] <andypugh> If it is aimed for production fit (to close the fuelling loop) then they can’t be _that_ expensive.
[17:31:36] * furrywolf remembers marine engines with mechanical pressure plotters...
[17:31:43] <zeeshan> and compensate my ign timing if its showing signs of det
[17:32:05] <andypugh> I think the transducers we fit (by driling the head) cost about £120 each.
[17:32:15] <zeeshan> thats not bad
[17:32:23] <zeeshan> the ones i was looking at were in the 1400$ range per plug
[17:32:41] <andypugh> But we need to machine the head to fit them.
[17:32:41] <zeeshan> by optrand
[17:32:49] <zeeshan> hm
[17:32:53] <furrywolf> why not use a microphone knock sensor like most production vehicles?
[17:33:01] <zeeshan> knock sensors dont give you the profile
[17:33:11] <zeeshan> you can predict knock happening well before a knock sensor will pick it up
[17:33:15] <zeeshan> by using asensitive tranducer
[17:33:26] <zeeshan> (really useful when youre tuning the car)
[17:33:58] <zeeshan> http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/detonation/crank.gif
[17:34:03] <zeeshan> youll see that
[17:34:04] <andypugh> Cylinder pressure transducers are our number-one tool
[17:34:11] <furrywolf> I wonder if you could deduce it by monitoring the crank rotation with enough precision...
[17:34:17] <zeeshan> andypugh: can you rob me one?
[17:34:18] <zeeshan> :-)
[17:34:33] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i dont want it for ongoing knock protection
[17:34:37] <zeeshan> like a knock sensor does well for that
[17:34:43] <zeeshan> but when youre tuning a car, you dont wanna rely on the knock sensor
[17:34:46] <Timbo> huh, that's really interesting
[17:34:50] <andypugh> It’s not impossible. I can keep an eye out for some in the skip
[17:34:50] <zeeshan> it'd be nice to have concrete numbers
[17:35:04] <zeeshan> andypugh: so i would need to drill a hole and tap this sensor?
[17:35:08] <zeeshan> what dia hole roughly?
[17:35:22] <andypugh> Yes. The hard part is missing the water jacket and oilways.
[17:35:36] <andypugh> We have a 3D model of the head, so know where to drill.
[17:35:39] <zeeshan> i have a spare head
[17:35:49] <zeeshan> that i can cut up and see whats up
[17:36:07] <andypugh> Yes, that works too. Cut the head into slices.
[17:36:16] <furrywolf> or build some fancy spark-plug-thread adapter that still doubles as a spark plug...
[17:36:28] <zeeshan> optrand drills like a .010" hole in the spark plug
[17:36:40] <zeeshan> and then puts a tiny little fiber optic or something like that transducer
[17:37:27] <zeeshan> sorry 1/16".
[17:37:30] <zeeshan> not 0.010"
[17:37:43] <furrywolf> what about applying something funky like measuring the current of repeated high voltage pulses to the spark plug, or something?
[17:37:57] <andypugh> http://www.kistler.com/gb/en/applications/automotive-research-test/engine-research-development/cylinder-pressure-indication-for-test-bench/
[17:38:04] <zeeshan> lol dont give me a kistler page
[17:38:10] <zeeshan> they make top notch stuff
[17:38:20] <zeeshan> but they prolly are like 10,000-20,000$
[17:38:21] <zeeshan> easily
[17:38:27] <XXCoder> my van pcv apparently is a nightmare http://www.answers.com/Q/Where_is_the_PCV_valve_on_a_1996_Nissan_Quest
[17:38:36] <andypugh> We use Kistler gauges. Those are the ones that cost is £120 or so.
[17:38:43] <zeeshan> what!
[17:38:50] <furrywolf> a higher cylinder pressure probably causes a higher breakdown voltage... if you applied a few thousand very brief hv pulses and measured the current or breakdown voltage of each one...
[17:38:59] <zeeshan> kistler has a patent on that quartz crystal orientation/technique
[17:39:08] <zeeshan> for load cells
[17:40:59] <furrywolf> hrmm, now I'm curious what my theory above would actually look like. :)
[17:41:20] <andypugh> furrywolf: It would work, but could it sample every crank-degree at 5000 rpm?
[17:42:06] <furrywolf> andypugh: dunno. how about every one revolution plus one degree, for 360 revolutions? :)
[17:42:06] <zeeshan> 83hz
[17:42:21] <zeeshan> is 5000 rpm, so you'd want like
[17:42:34] <zeeshan> hm. nm :p
[17:43:18] <zeeshan> andypugh: the problem with drilling a hole into the combustion chamber is you might change the flame propagation
[17:43:24] <zeeshan> i think thats why optrand is $$$
[17:43:26] <furrywolf> I wish I had time to play with engine design.
[17:43:47] <furrywolf> I still want to build my vane pump rotary. :)
[17:44:03] <andypugh> furrywolf: Yes, that would work, though then every measurment takes 9 seconds.
[17:44:20] <zeeshan> http://www.intertechnology.com/Kistler/Pressure_Model_6115A.htm
[17:44:21] <zeeshan> !
[17:44:35] <zeeshan> 100khz natural frequency
[17:44:36] <zeeshan> nice.
[17:44:42] <furrywolf> andypugh: that's good enough for many purposes. not all, but many. it'd characterize a given set of static parameters nicely.
[17:44:52] <andypugh> zeeshan: Yes, we have to flush-fit the sensors to the head surface or we see “organ pipe” resonances.
[17:45:06] <zeeshan> ah
[17:45:29] * zeeshan wants the kistler 6115a
[17:45:32] * zeeshan looks up price
[17:46:20] * furrywolf suspects the price is "click here to have a representative call you"
[17:46:37] <zeeshan> 2800 euro
[17:46:37] <zeeshan> LOL
[17:46:50] <zeeshan> 3100 usd
[17:46:54] <andypugh> $1200 at a guess. The bare sensors are not so bad. But when combined with special fittings (of which they sell many fewer) the money gets big, fast.
[17:47:08] <andypugh> Ah, OK. Even more than instrumented glow plugs.
[17:47:22] <zeeshan> looks like they edm it
[17:47:28] <zeeshan> that hole for the esnsor
[17:47:29] <andypugh> But for the people who really need that, it’s worth the money.
[17:47:47] <furrywolf> eh, with a glow plug, it doesn't need to actually work as a glow plug... just start the engine on a bit of ether. :)
[17:48:28] <andypugh> For cold-start investigations (where we use sensors extenisvely) the glow-plug not only has to work, but has to work identically to a real one.
[17:48:31] <furrywolf> tell your university you need one for monitoring the pressure in your shape memory polymer test apparatus
[17:48:39] <zeeshan> bhahaah
[17:48:47] <zeeshan> "why does it looks like a sparkplug"
[17:48:49] <zeeshan> "no comment"
[17:49:57] <zeeshan> andypugh: i guess only option is what you suggested
[17:50:01] <zeeshan> drill hole, put sensor, flush it
[17:50:23] <zeeshan> i think ill only need to do it on #7 cylinder cause it is the hottest cylindfer
[17:50:23] <andypugh> How many people out there do you think know what a spark plug looks like?
[17:50:29] <zeeshan> and likely to blow up
[17:51:24] <furrywolf> what about a microphone coupled to the spark plug somehow? maybe remove the tungsten core from a spark plug, widen the insulator slightly, reinsert the rod with some kind of vibration isolating material around it (it doesn't need to survive long), and bond a piezo sensor directly to it? it wouldn't give an absolute pressure reading, but it might copy the high frequency bits from knocking excellently...
[17:51:36] <XXCoder> furrywolf: isnt sound conductive
[17:51:48] <XXCoder> though solid that nis
[17:51:57] <zeeshan> i think the acoustic sensors are tuned for acoustic frequencies
[17:52:08] <zeeshan> i want cylinder pressure vs crank angle
[17:52:27] <zeeshan> cause the profile is pretty standard
[17:52:49] <zeeshan> so you can see the absolute numbers and profile and know you're in the money zone
[17:53:00] <furrywolf> the money-spending zone? :)
[17:53:03] <alex4nder> laf
[17:53:15] <zeeshan> cause you keep increasing ignition timing and you notice the pressures increasing
[17:53:20] <zeeshan> and the peak pressure moving
[17:53:35] <zeeshan> at some point the peak pressure drops, and soon after that if you increase timing further, it shows those spikes
[17:54:01] <zeeshan> sometimes it wont even drop, so you'd need to experiment :p
[17:54:06] <alex4nder> zeeshan: we just increase the timing, until the increase in peak torque starts diminishing
[17:54:15] <alex4nder> and call it a day
[17:54:15] <zeeshan> alex4nder: sometimes that doesnt happen
[17:54:25] <alex4nder> zeeshan: thankfully I never ran into that. :)
[17:54:28] <zeeshan> youll knock before that happens on high compression cars
[17:54:33] <furrywolf> sure it does. if you increase the timing enough, the torque WILL drop. :P
[17:54:36] <XXCoder> man I usually love google
[17:54:50] <XXCoder> but car stuff? google suck so hard, unless vacuum then it blows hard
[17:54:52] <alex4nder> zeeshan: we were tuning high-ish compression 13Bs
[17:55:02] <alex4nder> it was good enough for government work
[17:55:02] * furrywolf demonstrates by setting it to 180btdc, and observing zero torque
[17:55:03] <zeeshan> alex4nder: those arent meant to last more than 500 miles
[17:55:06] <zeeshan> :-) jk
[17:55:09] <alex4nder> haha
[17:55:12] <zeeshan> damn rotaries
[17:55:17] <alex4nder> the opposite, any fuckup, and you're done
[17:55:22] <alex4nder> but when they're setup right, they run forever
[17:56:04] <furrywolf> ... rotaries do NOT run forever. as evidence, I cite my observation that everyone I know who's ever owned one is in the process of rebuilding it more often than driving it. the only thing worse is air-cooled VWs. :)
[17:56:37] <alex4nder> furrywolf: blah blah they're not maintaining them properly blah blah
[17:56:40] <XXCoder> just rebuild engine each 2 years your beetle will last forever
[17:56:46] <zeeshan> lol what
[17:56:58] <zeeshan> are we going to do a rotary bashing today
[17:56:59] <XXCoder> billion miles later your vw beetle will work
[17:57:01] <zeeshan> =D
[17:57:07] <alex4nder> zeeshan: I hope not.. it's tired
[17:57:30] <alex4nder> the final argument is "you'd be better with a small block swap"
[17:57:36] <furrywolf> lol
[17:57:36] <alex4nder> and then people draw guns
[17:57:54] <furrywolf> I hear a SBC fits the rx7 pretty well... :P
[17:57:57] <zeeshan> hahahah
[17:57:59] <zeeshan> it sure does!
[17:58:13] <alex4nder> see
[17:58:21] <zeeshan> and you feel less guilty about it asap you drive it and it doesnt go kaboom
[17:58:28] <zeeshan> :-)
[17:59:06] <alex4nder> it's cool
[17:59:19] <alex4nder> I was looking at 2JZ-into-R32 GT-R swaps last night
[17:59:21] <furrywolf> you should find some industrial turboshaft engine that fits the rx7 nicely...
[17:59:25] <alex4nder> that really pisses people off
[17:59:39] <zeeshan> alex4nder: its a dumb swap
[17:59:52] <zeeshan> especially when you have the rb26dett
[17:59:53] <alex4nder> zeeshan: not any dumber than an SBC into an RX-7. ;)
[18:00:02] <zeeshan> which is a perfectly capable engine
[18:00:08] <zeeshan> alex4nder: okay so you do wanna start rotary bashing
[18:00:10] <furrywolf> a turboshaft rx7 would be an actually cool swap
[18:00:11] <zeeshan> :-)
[18:00:30] <zeeshan> maintain a perfectly good rotary engine still means it's going to fail catastrophically
[18:00:38] <alex4nder> zeeshan: I love rotaries, and I love V8s.
[18:00:43] <alex4nder> bashing either is stupid
[18:00:59] <zeeshan> alex4nder: i've built rotaries for like 5 years
[18:01:03] <zeeshan> i hate them
[18:01:07] <SpeedEvil> What about rotary V8?
[18:01:11] <zeeshan> lol
[18:01:12] <zeeshan> what
[18:01:46] <alex4nder> zeeshan: that's cool. I've had zero turbo 13B blow-ups. I love 'em.
[18:01:48] <zeeshan> i think i get ticked off by rotaries cause of the experience i've had with them
[18:01:59] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pratt-Whitney-T-34-Turboshaft-Engine-Controllers-Pr-/360244320658 you need to make that fit in something. I don't know what, but something.
[18:01:59] <zeeshan> alex4nder: how many miles on the engine?
[18:02:00] <alex4nder> I've killed more turbos than 13Bs.
[18:02:26] <zeeshan> furrywolf: XXCoder's van
[18:02:38] <zeeshan> will fit perfect
[18:02:46] <andypugh> FWIW we mainly use cylinder pressure as a proxy for cylinder temperature to keep the pistons from melting.
[18:02:51] <XXCoder> yeah just $2000 will buy it lol
[18:02:56] <furrywolf> how about an xj12 with the stupidly long hood? it'd hide nicely under those, and the xj12 only lasted about 50k anyway...
[18:02:57] <zeeshan> alex4nder: more like you've killed a 13b which killed your turbine wheel
[18:03:02] <zeeshan> when the apex seal exited :)
[18:03:03] <zeeshan> jk
[18:03:06] <alex4nder> haha
[18:03:10] <zeeshan> thats happened to me twice
[18:03:20] <zeeshan> 700$ rebuild for a gt35r
[18:03:20] <zeeshan> each time
[18:03:23] <alex4nder> no, I killed the turbo by messing around with anti-lag
[18:03:28] <alex4nder> (the last turbo I killed)
[18:03:32] <zeeshan> unusable rotor housing
[18:03:43] <zeeshan> they're not cheap to maintain
[18:03:46] <andypugh> It’s fin when the compressor seals go on a diesel. You get a ton of power. Whether you want it or not.
[18:03:56] <zeeshan> regular piston engine, rebore it, move on :p
[18:04:08] <furrywolf> andypugh: that's when you hop out and shove a rag down the aircleaner. ask me how I know. :P
[18:04:24] <andypugh> I was already doing 50mph.
[18:04:31] <furrywolf> lol
[18:04:41] <alex4nder> zeeshan: these engines all had different mileage
[18:05:01] <XXCoder> jets bag
[18:05:03] <XXCoder> *bah
[18:05:11] <XXCoder> Helicoper engine https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cORGMdOVTEQ/TWV4Ldo2VAI/AAAAAAAEBuI/j79pCSwnEI4/s800/mini_jet-small%2Bcopy.jpg
[18:05:24] <andypugh> I just put the car in neutral and stopped. Apparenly 7200 rpm is enough to kill a 5000rpm diesel. It never ran right again.
[18:05:43] <zeeshan> compressor seals?
[18:05:59] <furrywolf> andypugh: you're supposed to just step on the brakes and stop against the engine. all vehicles have brakes more than capable of stopping the engine, especially if you get it into high gear.
[18:06:15] <andypugh> Yes, so engine oil is injected into the boost air.
[18:06:37] <furrywolf> zeeshan: the compressor side of the turbo. the diesel is perfectly happy burning your engine oil as fuel, and revs up as long as it keeps getting oil.
[18:06:48] <zeeshan> rofl
[18:06:49] <zeeshan> nice
[18:07:29] <furrywolf> you have to either stall the engine with the brakes, cut off the air supply, let it run out of oil (and ruin itself), or let it overrev (and ruin itself)...
[18:07:55] <furrywolf> co2 fire extinguishers work too. I haven't done it myself, but I saw a video of someone using one to stop a runaway diesel once.
[18:08:17] <andypugh> furrywolf: I was more interested in stopping than saving the engine. And it was a useful test of the emergency-shutdown software. (engine revs > redline and no pedal input? Close the intake throttle and turbo-vanes.
[18:08:51] <zeeshan> how can you choke the air
[18:08:55] <zeeshan> when the tb usually always has a gap
[18:08:56] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A_z-cRifcvo#t=139
[18:09:04] <zeeshan> for idle air by pass
[18:09:08] <zeeshan> or is it diff for diesel
[18:09:17] <furrywolf> on a related note, I learned a couple days ago that the e-brake on my subaru holds stronger than the clutch on the engine... yay subaru e-brakes.
[18:09:18] <andypugh> Different for diesl.
[18:09:36] <furrywolf> zeeshan: diesels have no throttle. they're controlled entirely by the amount of fuel injected.
[18:09:48] <zeeshan> theres gotta be a throttle plate!
[18:09:48] <zeeshan> :p
[18:09:53] <andypugh> The throttle is 100% open nearly all the time, but can close completely for engine-stop.
[18:09:53] <furrywolf> no
[18:09:59] <furrywolf> they always get full air
[18:10:13] <zeeshan> so when you press the throttle pedal
[18:10:21] <furrywolf> ok, andy apparantly works on some weird diesel that has a throttle. no diesel I've ever seen has a throttle. :P
[18:10:22] <zeeshan> the fuel amount is making you accelerate
[18:10:28] <zeeshan> not the air rushing in
[18:10:29] <furrywolf> yes
[18:10:42] <furrywolf> correct. they always get the same amount of air, you only vary the fuel.
[18:10:54] <zeeshan> did not know that! :D
[18:11:36] <andypugh> The throttle is for secondary functions. To liimit airflow to force more EGR, to improve heater performance, to increase exhaust temp for particulat filter regeneration, to make the engine stop gently without rock-back and shake.
[18:11:45] <furrywolf> and with always having an abundant supply of air, if they get any extra fuel (of which your engine oil is a perfect substitute for), they'll happily act just as if you were stepping on the gas enough to add that much fuel...
[18:12:26] <furrywolf> none of the diesels I've worked on have egr, airflow heaters (although I have heard of them), particulate filters, or gentle starts and stops. :)
[18:12:29] <andypugh> furrywolf: Except there can be even more fuel than the system normally allows.
[18:13:12] <andypugh> When mine ran away it wa smaking a _lot_ of power.
[18:13:16] <zeeshan> other than the diesel cycle being more efficient
[18:13:24] <zeeshan> diesel fuel has more energy yea?
[18:13:28] <furrywolf> the original powerstrokes are the newest I've worked on... most of my experience is on the ford/international idi.
[18:13:30] <zeeshan> thats why people get better mpg
[18:13:44] <andypugh> It is partly more efficient because there is no throttle plate so fewer pumping losses.
[18:13:48] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you're working on some old stuff
[18:13:49] <zeeshan> haha
[18:13:55] <zeeshan> cars now days even have DEF
[18:14:02] <zeeshan> that truck i drove had it
[18:14:14] <zeeshan> the system malfunctioned.. and i was stuck on the corner of the road
[18:14:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan: they may be old, but you might notice a LOT of those idis are still on the road. they were reliable engines.
[18:14:20] <zeeshan> that was my first and last time driving a diesel haha
[18:14:35] <furrywolf> why the heck would a def issue leave you stuck?
[18:14:38] <zeeshan> dude
[18:14:41] <zeeshan> it went into limp mode
[18:14:44] <furrywolf> it's only emissions, not functionality.
[18:14:52] <andypugh> Those still running, maybe. Ford had a big falling-out with International about that engine. ]
[18:15:00] <zeeshan> let me drive 20 more min before reducing vehicle speed to 5 mph max.
[18:15:07] <zeeshan> thats quite unsafe for middle of highway
[18:15:17] <furrywolf> then that's an intentional bit of brain-damage on the part of the manufacturer. the DEF is _not_ required for any part of the engine functionality.
[18:15:25] <zeeshan> its something about burning your CATs
[18:15:32] <andypugh> furrywolf: When we can we leave the car running. The exception is emissions problems where there are legally-mandated failure reactions.
[18:15:33] <zeeshan> or some other very expensive missions part.
[18:15:54] <furrywolf> zeeshan: lawyers are expensive emissions parts, I suspect.
[18:16:41] <furrywolf> sigh, what to do about this generator... I'm annoyed. I worked too hard on it, and now I need to tear it all back apart it seems...
[18:17:33] <furrywolf> plus I don't think I can hone the cylinder without taking it really, really apart... do you really need to hone when you put in new rings? :)
[18:18:12] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i think youre right
[18:18:19] <zeeshan> but apparently it blows up your catalyst
[18:18:26] <zeeshan> and on that truck it costs like 2k to replace
[18:18:55] <zeeshan> (at least thats what the manual said)
[18:19:07] <zeeshan> (i downloaded the factory service manual for it while i was stuck)
[18:19:16] <zeeshan> i tried resetting the battery, didnt by pass it
[18:19:17] <zeeshan> lol
[18:19:20] <furrywolf> my cylinder has a nice shiny mirror finish... that's an acceptable substitute for a clean crosshatch, right? :)
[18:19:29] <zeeshan> rental truck company paid towing etc for it
[18:19:39] <zeeshan> nop!
[18:21:31] <furrywolf> I'm still not sure what I'm going to find when I pull it apart... I've never seen an engine burn as much oil as this one does and keep running.
[18:21:41] <furrywolf> it runs PERFECTLY, too. and has no blowby.
[18:22:33] <zeeshan> i dunno your engine
[18:22:37] <zeeshan> but does it have valve stem seals?
[18:22:52] <zeeshan> those failing give nice puffs of smoke too
[18:23:08] <Tom_itx> moreso on startup
[18:23:34] <furrywolf> it's a brand new head, with brand new valves, and a brand new stem seal. (only uses one on the intake)
[18:23:47] <furrywolf> also, it burnt oil with the old head, so I doubt it's a defective head...
[18:24:18] <furrywolf> I know it burnt oil before because the original (since replaced) muffler had about a quarter inch layer of black glop all over it, inside and out...
[18:24:46] <furrywolf> my guess is I'm going to find the combustion rings in good shape, and the oil ring severely damaged.
[18:25:18] <zeeshan> that makes sense
[18:25:25] <zeeshan> cause its supposed to scrape the oil off
[18:25:27] <zeeshan> way back down
[18:25:37] <zeeshan> way up should deposit oil into the cross hatches
[18:26:02] <furrywolf> if the compression rings were bad, I'd expect to have some blowby. it has absolutely none.
[18:26:21] <furrywolf> it doesn't have crosshatches anymore. it was nice and shiny...
[18:26:45] <furrywolf> I suspect it has a lot of hours. :)
[18:26:56] <zeeshan> whats your end goal for this thing
[18:27:52] <furrywolf> working!
[18:28:01] <zeeshan> to do what with it
[18:28:13] <furrywolf> probably give it on long-term loan to a relative for use during winter power failures
[18:29:45] <furrywolf> or craigslist.
[18:30:05] <furrywolf> neither one of which it is suitable for now... sure, it puts out full power, but you can't see the generator while it's doing it. :P
[18:30:26] <XXCoder> filter its output lol
[18:30:32] <zeeshan> im only asking cause i always wanted a generator
[18:30:36] <zeeshan> but not sure what i'd use it for :P
[18:30:36] <furrywolf> bbl, undoing all my careful assembley...
[18:31:27] <furrywolf> zeeshan: they're good for lots of things. you can run power tools in areas with no power. you can keep your refrigerator running while the power is out, as well as computers and whatever else you need. if you have a solar power system, you can use it as a backup for long storms or equipment failures.
[18:32:03] <furrywolf> I once went with a friend to look at a fire truck for sale... the alternator was bad. so he stuck his generator on the roof, with a big battery charger, and was driving it like that. :P
[18:33:45] <XXCoder> heh
[18:33:54] <XXCoder> rube goldeberg
[18:34:08] <XXCoder> in least no mouse or balls lol
[18:34:21] <zeeshan> hahah
[18:35:56] <furrywolf> some people like generators when camping, especially in an rv.... me, I consider camping to not need power.
[18:36:31] <XXCoder> furrywolf: all I need is ereader device
[18:36:52] <XXCoder> I got this really nice solar charger - with ereader low power needs I would be able to camp forever
[18:37:03] <XXCoder> in least till books ran out lol
[18:37:56] * JT-Shop has a 10kva 3 phase diesel generator that can run the whole house
[18:38:21] <furrywolf> there are a lot of books. I suspect they're being written faster than you can read them.
[18:39:03] <XXCoder> indeed but im assuming no internet access
[18:39:12] <XXCoder> kindle can hold a lot but not infinite lol
[18:39:33] <XXCoder> right now my kindle has entire series of discworld series plus few others
[18:40:02] <furrywolf> bbl, undoing all the careful assembly I did the last two days.
[18:40:12] * furrywolf grabs impact wrench
[18:50:08] <XXCoder> just reminded myself of maxamium overdrive lol
[18:50:13] <XXCoder> now that was silly movie
[18:52:19] <XXCoder> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091499/trivia?tab=gf&ref_=tt_trv_gf interesting goofs
[19:02:28] <XXCoder> whoa
[19:02:30] <XXCoder> https://littleblogofhorror.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/1003808_10151648004440808_878758196_n1.jpg
[19:02:37] <XXCoder> someone rebuilt the goblin head for truck
[19:03:17] <XXCoder> http://littleblogofhorror.com/2013/09/29/maximum-overdrive-goblin-head-resurrected-interview-with-tim-shockey/
[19:04:19] <XXCoder> https://littleblogofhorror.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/625499_351135338337897_1651645939_n.jpg
[19:12:45] <furrywolf> ok,.... wtf? I went to start it and it wouldn't start, so I began tearing it apart. ran it with the valve cover off... the exhaust valve is sticking, badly. if you push the exhaust valve down, it spends a half second slowly closing!
[19:13:57] <andypugh> This is your new head?
[19:14:25] <XXCoder> broken spring?
[19:14:43] <XXCoder> dunno if exhust uses similiar method to close as intake
[19:15:18] <furrywolf> brand new head and valve
[19:15:24] <furrywolf> spring is fine.
[19:15:36] <furrywolf> it closes, just slowly
[19:15:42] <XXCoder> weird
[19:15:43] <furrywolf> takes lots of force to open, too
[19:15:43] <andypugh> Wierd
[19:15:55] <furrywolf> it moved freely when I put it together.
[19:16:04] <zeeshan> not using enough nitrous
[19:16:13] <furrywolf> intake still moves freely
[19:16:19] <zeeshan> your valve is bent
[19:16:24] <furrywolf> it's acting like it's all gummed up, but it's only been ran 15 minutes...
[19:16:31] <furrywolf> it LOOKS gummed up...
[19:16:31] <zeeshan> ^
[19:16:45] <furrywolf> zeeshan: it didn't bend itself, and it was fine when I put it together.
[19:18:53] <andypugh> Well, just possibly you were buring enough oil to gum it up?
[19:19:05] <furrywolf> XXCoder: "We also have bottles of “Goblin Dust” which is dust from where we sanded on the Green Goblin head while restoring it. " LOL. fans are weird.
[19:19:26] <furrywolf> it's possible, but... 15 minutes from a new head to failed?!
[19:19:26] <XXCoder> of course
[19:19:39] <XXCoder> there is fracial structure to fans
[19:19:40] <zeeshan> interfernce engine?
[19:19:49] <furrywolf> I wish I could sell random bottles of fiberglass sanding dust to people. :P
[19:19:53] <furrywolf> zeeshan: no
[19:19:56] <XXCoder> from basic fans to smaller but more crazy fans, and more down
[19:20:09] <XXCoder> furrywolf: im sure theres more smaller but more crazy fans to furry too
[19:20:12] <zeeshan> hm
[19:21:12] <andypugh> furrywolf: People are wierd. I just realised that 7 years ago I bought a mini lathe for £200 to build a clock I had an idea for. Then I decided it should be bigger, and CNC. Now I just paid £200 for a toolpost for my 4th lathe, and the clock still hasn’t even been started.
[19:21:17] <furrywolf> I don't think I own any interference engines... maybe my van?
[19:21:54] <furrywolf> andypugh: now you just need to sell your lathe swarf to people.
[19:22:20] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah theres people who want aluminium swarf for their crazy crystal stuff
[19:23:11] <andypugh> We could always give bits of dead robot away
[19:23:16] <furrywolf> XXCoder: no, no... you need to sell it as a priceless collectable, complete with a genuine certificate of authenticity saying it's actually from making some random part of a clock...
[19:23:20] <XXCoder> https://i1.ytimg.com/vi/AE5YBKmGjFY/hqdefault.jpg
[19:23:47] <XXCoder> more crazy stuff http://www.soul-guidance.com/orgonite/orgonitepic/orgonitepieces.jpg
[19:24:08] <andypugh> When it got really wierd was when folk were asking me for my autograph “But I am just a wierdo with spare time and a workshop, why would you want my autograph"?
[19:24:35] <XXCoder> the copper wire brings it home even more lol http://thepromiserevealed.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/OrgonePersonalPyramid.jpg
[19:24:58] <XXCoder> there really is no end http://www.orgonotica.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Coiled-TBs-together-1024x576.jpg lol
[19:25:15] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah thats better plan than buying into that crazy syiff
[19:25:40] <furrywolf> hrmm, I need to pick up a dingleberry hone...
[19:25:41] <XXCoder> I do like the look of them things it looks nice but not buying into crazy crystal stuff lol
[19:26:00] <andypugh> That reminds me. Some friends just celebarated their Silver Wedding. No! I said, it’s your 25th anniversary, that’s Manganese, and sent them some.
[19:26:50] <furrywolf> I'm surprised harbor freight doesn't sell them.
[19:28:09] <zeeshan> lol
[19:28:23] <XXCoder> them crystals furrywolf ?
[19:28:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: ?
[19:28:37] <furrywolf> oh, no, not crytals, dingleberry hones.
[19:28:41] <XXCoder> ahh
[19:30:08] <furrywolf> I don't want to use my 3-sided stone one, as I want to give it just a very light crosshatch, not take a lot of metal off...
[19:31:36] <andypugh> wrap the three-sided thing in emery paper?
[19:32:35] <andypugh> Or build a CNC laser device to do the job properly :-)
[19:33:14] <XXCoder> fur, I was really wondering about your region if you was surpised your local harbor freight didnt supply crystals LOL
[19:34:00] <furrywolf> there's plenty of other stores here selling hippie crystals.
[19:35:10] <XXCoder> yeah but I would really wonder if tools stores was expected to have em too lol
[19:41:38] <zeeshan> use a ball hone
[19:41:48] <zeeshan> dont f around with a flat hone
[19:41:52] <zeeshan> =/
[19:42:07] <zeeshan> furrywolf: how many cylinder is this engine
[19:46:14] <furrywolf> 1
[19:46:40] <zeeshan> cute
[19:46:40] <zeeshan> haha
[19:46:55] <zeeshan> you know how we were talking about service manuals andypugh
[19:46:56] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/AlMidJe.png
[19:47:02] <zeeshan> look at how childish gm's manual looks
[19:47:03] <zeeshan> lol
[19:47:20] <zeeshan> it looks SO boring
[19:47:31] <XXCoder> fancy
[19:47:34] <zeeshan> when you zoom in the image
[19:47:38] <furrywolf> eh, looks fairly normal to me.
[19:47:41] <XXCoder> it even includes vowels!
[19:47:41] <zeeshan> the text is not vector graphics
[19:47:43] <zeeshan> its chopped up
[19:48:26] <furrywolf> so you're complaining about the pirated digital copy, not about GM's efforts designing the manual.
[19:48:38] <furrywolf> if you want vector diagrams, pay for ondemand/shopkey. :P
[19:48:50] <zeeshan> this is their official manual..
[19:49:09] * furrywolf notes ondemand has really shiny color svg wiring diagrams
[19:49:20] <zeeshan> gm manual?
[19:49:37] <furrywolf> dunno, and I'm not going to go fetch my laptop just to check for you. :P
[19:50:50] <zeeshan> this is what im complaning about
[19:50:57] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/RjF4bFX.png <- gm garbage
[19:51:05] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/o01dSeV.png <- subaru soothing to the eyes
[19:51:39] * zeeshan ends complaints
[19:52:24] <Tom_itx> boreing
[19:52:56] <zeeshan> im trying to make a standalone hardness for the engine
[19:53:00] <zeeshan> it is tedious work
[19:53:03] <zeeshan> and boring
[19:53:06] <zeeshan> :-)
[19:55:11] <furrywolf> sec, uploading the ondemand ones I used for my subaru
[19:55:24] <zeeshan> nice
[19:55:30] <furrywolf> when I was making my engine swap harness
[19:55:58] <furrywolf> I found them on the backup of my old laptop drive
[19:56:12] <furrywolf> it's around 2.5MB, so it'll be a while...
[19:57:16] <furrywolf> these are pngs I made for printing... I later figured out how to print the svgs directly, but these still show the style of the diagrams nicely.
[19:58:13] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/eng1-crop1.png http://fw.bushytails.net/eng1-crop2.png
[19:58:40] <zeeshan> very nice.
[19:58:43] <furrywolf> grr
[19:58:44] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/eng1-crop1.png http://fw.bushytails.net/eng2-crop1.png
[19:58:55] <andypugh> zeeshan: The Yamaha ones (from 10 years ago) are surprisingly good. http://imagebin.ca/v/24TH9USAxXYK
[19:59:02] <XXCoder> very nicely styled
[19:59:08] <zeeshan> broken link and
[19:59:10] <andypugh> (you need to click the link and download, I think)
[19:59:28] <furrywolf> the color is very nice when you're holding a 2" bundle of wires and trying to figure out what to do next. :P
[19:59:44] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i always try to isolate each circuit
[19:59:49] <zeeshan> not cross wires like you've got
[19:59:55] <zeeshan> it takes more space , a lot more
[19:59:59] <zeeshan> but its easier to follow for me
[20:00:06] <furrywolf> I didn't make the diagrams. lol
[20:00:09] <zeeshan> oh
[20:00:10] <andypugh> zeeshan: ie, click the missing-link question mark
[20:00:13] <furrywolf> those are the ones ondemand/shopkey gives
[20:00:33] <zeeshan> andypugh it downloads a file with no extension
[20:00:33] <zeeshan> lol
[20:00:37] <furrywolf> they also have individual diagrams for subsystems that are a lot less congested... that's the engine management overview diagram.
[20:00:37] <zeeshan> what was the original extension
[20:00:43] <andypugh> pdf
[20:00:55] <zeeshan> wow dude
[20:00:57] <zeeshan> that is NICE
[20:01:18] <zeeshan> that is really impressive
[20:01:25] <zeeshan> they even color the connectors.
[20:01:50] <andypugh> It helps that there are not _that_ many wires in a bike.
[20:02:06] <zeeshan> instead of numbers
[20:02:10] <zeeshan> it';d be nice to have labels there for the loads
[20:02:39] <furrywolf> alldata gives diagrams like the gm one you pasted, ondemand gives the shiny color svg ones...
[20:02:47] <furrywolf> having both is often helpful.
[20:02:54] <XXCoder> you has access to either now?
[20:03:01] <furrywolf> not in front of me
[20:03:04] <XXCoder> ok
[20:03:17] <zeeshan> lemme show you mitusbishi.
[20:03:28] <zeeshan> i think they are really top notch diagrams, minus the fact they dont have color like andy's
[20:03:34] <zeeshan> if they had that, they would be perfect.
[20:03:36] <furrywolf> bbl, I should be dicking around with the generator, not ircing...
[20:04:26] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/dksaVDc.png
[20:04:44] <zeeshan> cmon, you gotta be impressed by it
[20:11:09] * Tom_itx ponders clicking on the 'get windows 10' icon that just appeared
[20:12:45] <zeeshan> dont do it!
[20:20:42] <andypugh> zeeshan: It’s a decent diagram
[20:21:15] <andypugh> We got the development ones as ludicrously large TIFFs. Like, a 20MB image.
[20:21:54] <zeeshan> you guys design all of ford's electrical stuff?
[20:21:55] <andypugh> You need a special viewer to open them. I have no idea whay they can’t use something sensible.
[20:22:40] <andypugh> I don’t design any electrical stuff, but I think the wiring is all designed on-house, but made extrnally.
[20:24:57] <zeeshan> makes more sense to outsource it
[20:25:10] <zeeshan> theres companies that specifically make harnesses
[20:25:13] <andypugh> I think the looms are mainly made by Lear
[20:25:15] <zeeshan> we used anixter
[20:26:09] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ozwxnur.png
[20:26:10] <andypugh> Lear employ nearly as many people as Ford
[20:26:16] <zeeshan> im so rusty in reading diagrams
[20:26:25] <zeeshan> kinda lost as to what is going on with the ign s/w
[20:26:51] * zeeshan hasn't heard of lear before
[20:27:14] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lear_Corporation
[20:27:17] <zeeshan> looks like they do seats too
[20:27:38] <andypugh> That’s a terrible diagram of the ignition switch
[20:27:43] <zeeshan> i agree
[20:27:51] <zeeshan> im lost when the switch goes from off to "ACC"
[20:27:54] <zeeshan> what is exactly being powered
[20:28:11] <zeeshan> they dont have a line going to anything :p
[20:28:31] <zeeshan> i think when it's in "ig2" both ACCessory and the engine fuse 15A sees power
[20:28:42] <zeeshan> and when ig1 , the starter gets power.
[20:28:49] <andypugh> I guess that the arrow swings from off, to Acc, to IG2 to Sart
[20:29:07] <zeeshan> but why the "starter cut relay"
[20:29:14] <zeeshan> its normally closed..
[20:29:41] <zeeshan> so when you're in start mode, as long as you got the clutch depressed, it powers the stater solenoid
[20:29:48] <andypugh> Opened by the PCM to inhibit start maybe?
[20:29:57] <zeeshan> but when you're in ig2 mode, it opens up
[20:30:06] <XXCoder> interesting. http://hackaday.com/2015/06/07/diy-mdf-cnc-machine-is-small-and-solid/
[20:30:12] <XXCoder> be back
[20:30:17] <zeeshan> yes, but wouldn't switching from start to ig2 disable the starter by itself?
[20:30:23] <zeeshan> or they being paranoid :p
[20:31:12] <andypugh> They want to be able to stop you cranking too long and melting the motor, amongst other things.
[20:32:08] <andypugh> You need to try quite hard to re-start after tripping the crash switch (you can, but the standard is to make you try a few times)
[20:32:57] <Tom_itx> preventing hit and runs?
[20:33:07] <andypugh> And driving off half-dead
[20:33:30] <andypugh> Or with fewer wheels than normal
[20:34:03] <andypugh> A lot of this stuff has accreted as standards and is law, or nearly law
[20:34:04] <Tom_itx> i suppose they wouldn't get far anyway
[20:40:44] <andypugh> Right, time to stop this
[20:58:41] <cradek> that's what she said
[21:01:24] <furrywolf> engine all apart, piston out... nothing majorly wrong... except the oil ring assembley seems to be the exact same diameter as the piston!
[21:01:40] <zeeshan> look at the gap
[21:01:49] <zeeshan> how are you measuring diameter
[21:01:52] <zeeshan> that thing is a flimsy pos
[21:01:53] <zeeshan> ;p
[21:02:18] <furrywolf> eye. it's not stuck - I can wiggle it side to side freely - but it doesn't extend past the sides of the groove at all when centered.
[21:02:29] <cradek> that ain't right
[21:02:50] <zeeshan> https://www.hastingsmfg.com/dev/images/Aftermarket_new/pic_oil_rings.jpg
[21:02:53] <zeeshan> does it look like this
[21:03:05] <zeeshan> http://www.handymanlyness.com/archives/auto/repair/engine_mech/rebuild_01/02/emcrrb14bro_engine_rebuild_99_Jimmy.jpg
[21:03:16] <furrywolf> yes
[21:04:01] <furrywolf> I don't need to measure the gap to know that a ring that doesn't stick out past the groove isn't doing its job. :)
[21:05:25] <furrywolf> the bore is glazed but no major damage. a few light scrapes and a few spots that looks like it rusted briefly, but nothing that won't vanish with the first pass of a ball hone.
[21:05:31] <humble_sea_bass> what kind of engine are you working over
[21:05:45] <furrywolf> humble_sea_bass: a honda eu3000is generator, with a gx200 engine.
[21:05:51] <zeeshan> heres a sample
[21:06:03] <zeeshan> piston ring end gap standard value 0.004 - 0.0015
[21:06:07] <zeeshan> service value 0.03
[21:06:10] <zeeshan> "
[21:06:18] <zeeshan> 0.015 not 0.0015
[21:06:27] <furrywolf> I think mine is closer to .1. :P
[21:06:31] <zeeshan> hahaha
[21:06:40] <furrywolf> for the oil ring. I didn't compress the compression rings to check them.
[21:06:41] <humble_sea_bass> those are fun little engines
[21:06:49] <Tom_itx> 2 rings offset with a spring spacer?
[21:06:51] <zeeshan> put the piston upside down and measure it
[21:06:55] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: yes
[21:07:06] <Tom_itx> parts available?
[21:07:07] <zeeshan> by upside down i mean shove the ring in the bore
[21:07:08] <humble_sea_bass> they remind me of the briggs & strattons we used to use in college for crappy racers
[21:07:11] <zeeshan> and use the piston to square it
[21:07:12] <zeeshan> and measure
[21:07:14] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: yes
[21:07:29] <Tom_itx> spin them so the gap is opposite and you may get a few more days from it
[21:07:59] <furrywolf> humble_sea_bass: imho, the hondas are a lot better built than a briggs. heh. briggs are nice in that you can abuse them and they keep working, but they really aren't built that well... and whomever designed the pulsajet carb needs to be clubbed.
[21:08:22] <furrywolf> briggs are really good at mostly working.
[21:08:31] <furrywolf> they're not very good at really working. :P
[21:08:45] <humble_sea_bass> agreed. The briggs are just SAE student car standard usually
[21:09:18] <humble_sea_bass> you can fiddle with them all you want, and trying to get proper injection working is something a lot of students waste a lot a time on
[21:09:33] <furrywolf> the big end has some slight scuffs, but nothing I'd feel bad about putting back together.
[21:10:02] <furrywolf> unfortunately, rings for this particular piston are expensive. I can buy a complete chinese piston, rings, rod, etc set for the same price. not sure which I should do.
[21:10:17] <furrywolf> $#@$@#ing california-only piston.
[21:10:33] <humble_sea_bass> wait cali has different pistons
[21:10:36] <furrywolf> hrmm, or is it the california one? sec, checking book.
[21:11:10] <furrywolf> humble_sea_bass: yep. lower oil burning, less blowby to meet ca emissions requirements, at the expense of power, economy, and life expectancy...
[21:11:59] <humble_sea_bass> i had no idea that the piston was the sacrificial lamb in the Cali emissions pire
[21:12:43] <zeeshan> found out the reason for the starter cut relay.
[21:12:47] <zeeshan> it's for antitheft.
[21:13:49] <humble_sea_bass> If the bore is the same, what keeps a man from just ordering a non-cali piston and letting that engine live the rest of its life in peace
[21:14:03] <furrywolf> yes, it's the california piston. it has thinner rings. top .96mm instead of 1.46mm, second .95mm instead of 1.45mm, oil .405mm instead of .46mm.
[21:14:31] <furrywolf> an extra 1mm of space between the top ring and the top of the piston
[21:15:42] <furrywolf> the other big difference is the generator has a complete evap system, with a charcoal canister, sealed fuel cap, vent lines, purge lines, etc.
[21:21:43] <furrywolf> what does thinner rings do, exactly? my best guess is the thinness makes them scrape the cylinder wall tighter, but then I figure the extra spring of the thicker ring would make it balance out...
[21:31:03] <zeeshan> yea i'd think that too!
[21:31:09] <zeeshan> less surface area of contact of the ring
[21:31:11] <zeeshan> so more pressure
[21:31:14] <zeeshan> i dunno :P
[21:37:11] <furrywolf> I just know I hate california more the longer I live here. :P
[22:12:01] <CaptHindsight> http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/02/how-piston-rings-affect-horsepower/
[22:12:50] <CaptHindsight> I wonder if there are more difference in the cylinders and pistons that you haven't realized yet
[22:13:59] <CaptHindsight> my guess is that they are more paranoid/concerned about keeping oil out of the combustion and also combustion out of the oil
[22:16:37] <furrywolf> zeeshan: as I expected, with feelers in the end gap, it's not "which", but "how many"... top to bottom .025, .058, .045. service manual says .040 is the limit, but the oil rings are so bad they simply drop into the cylinder...
[22:17:14] <englishman> haha nice
[22:17:57] <furrywolf> As I said before, I didn't need to actually measure to know that any ring that doesn't stick out beyond the piston is seriously worn. :)
[22:18:14] <cradek> what can cause that? is it just wear?
[22:18:19] <furrywolf> yes
[22:18:50] <furrywolf> generators here are often used by pot growers, who run them 24/7 at as much power as they can without the overload tripping.
[22:19:19] <cradek> it's surprising it was run for very long in the "fogging the whole neighborhood" condition
[22:19:24] <furrywolf> one of the other ones I have in the pile has an hour counter... I don't remember the exact number, but around 9000 hours.
[22:19:31] <cradek> wow
[22:19:39] <furrywolf> cradek: the "neighborhood" is usually on the back side of a hill with no neighbors for miles.
[22:19:51] <cradek> I guess excessive power use is a way they find the growers
[22:20:04] <cradek> not excessive gasoline use (which is totally american)
[22:20:10] <furrywolf> the one with 9000 hours seems to have a bad inverter. I haven't done any testing of the engine yet.
[22:20:35] <furrywolf> the people with generators often don't have power available. too far in the woods. this is a very rural area.
[22:21:04] <furrywolf> specifically, the guy I got it from said the inverter was bad, and I stuck the inverter in another unit with a good engine and no power came out...
[22:21:26] <CaptHindsight> I'd think that someone would have spliced the genes responsible for THC production into garden plants by now
[22:21:44] <furrywolf> you think potheads can do complex things? :P
[22:22:02] <furrywolf> getting between the sofa and the fridge for more munchies is hard enough...
[22:22:58] <englishman> id think pot growers would just buy new stuff
[22:23:13] <furrywolf> and they do. which is why I have a pile of 8 broken generators. :P
[22:23:23] <englishman> aha
[22:23:33] <furrywolf> actually, 7 broken generators. I moved one of them to the "working" pile. so far it's the only one there.
[22:23:34] <englishman> :)
[22:25:58] <furrywolf> it needs a couple fine-tuning things - the valve cover gasket seeps slightly, and I got the mounting bushings for the starter assembley in backwards - but it's otherwise ready to go.
[22:26:34] <furrywolf> (the bushings go in either way, and it works perfectly this way, but I checked the diagram afterwards and it says they're backwards, so I figure I might as well flip them over...)
[22:28:16] <furrywolf> so... should I just buy rings, or should I get a complete chinese piston with rings?
[22:28:45] <furrywolf> the chinese new piston with new rings, new pin, new rod, and new gaskets, costs $2 less than new rings for this piston.
[22:28:52] <Tom_itx> how much wear is on the ring lands?
[22:29:03] <furrywolf> they look fine, but I didn't measure.
[22:29:05] <englishman> china piston every time
[22:29:05] <Tom_itx> the piston is probably ok
[22:29:18] <Tom_itx> skirt worn?
[22:29:23] <englishman> better if you can get jug with it
[22:29:31] <furrywolf> normally I figure oem lasts longer, but this is the stupid california piston with extra-thin rings...
[22:30:07] <englishman> after 9000 hours the cylinder is probably egg shaped
[22:30:21] <furrywolf> skirt has a bit of polishing, enough that the lathe-turned texture on the non-loaded sides is not visible.
[22:30:38] <furrywolf> this isn't the one with 9000 hours. it doesn't have an hour counter.
[22:33:21] <furrywolf> it has enough hours I was able to stick two .010s, a .011, a .012, and a .013 in the .020 end gap... or maybe it was a .015 or something. I don't remember. lol
[22:34:31] * furrywolf already could see by eye that the gap was way too large, so wasn't paying too much attention measuring
[22:45:08] <tjtr33> an interesting analog i/o dev card using fpga redpitaya.com ( red pitaya is the 'dragon fruit' weird red skinned white polka dotted flesh fruit )
[22:45:28] <tjtr33> 500$ or so, but very flexible
[23:25:55] <chopper79> Hello, I was wondering if anybody could help me out real quick. I have a 5i25 with a 7i76 plug and play combo. I can not get pncconf to show the smart serial tab in the setup. I have applied field power to the 7i76 but it does not activate the smart serial tab in pncconf. Any ideas?
[23:27:04] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVrJUbeuG44&feature=youtu.be
[23:27:08] <XXCoder> lazer power
[23:30:06] <pcw_home> chopper79: I dont think pncconf looks at anything live related to sserial
[23:30:15] <furrywolf> it needs an auto-focus system
[23:30:59] <englishman> anyone got any serious opinions or experience with cnc6040 stuff
[23:32:13] <chopper79> pcw_home: when I choose the 5i25 and then the 7i76x2 daughter board I get the two i/o connector tabs but that is it. I have selected 1 encoder and that encoder does not show up on the i/o tabs. I figured it would have a smart serial tab like my 5i25-7i77 setup
[23:33:48] <pcw_home> did you select
[23:33:50] <pcw_home> Board name: 5i25 internal data
[23:33:51] <pcw_home> Firmware: 7i76x2 With One 7i76
[23:33:53] <pcw_home> and then accept selections
[23:34:52] <pcw_home> If I do that I get 3 tabs, con 2, con 3 and 7i76 I/O SS#0
[23:35:11] <chopper79> pcw_home: Yes to all, but no ss tab
[23:35:35] <chopper79> I have con 2 con 3 and that is all
[23:35:48] <pcw_home> must be a pncconf bug (it works on the latest)
[23:36:04] <pcw_home> (I'm running master)
[23:37:04] <chopper79> im on 10.04 (2.5) still. My 5i25/7i77 setup configures fine on 10.04 (2.5) so I figured this setup would also.
[23:37:13] <chopper79> different pc though
[23:37:34] <chopper79> maybe the pc is not seeing the 5i25?
[23:37:45] <pcw_home> Yeah pncconf bug probably should update pncconf
[23:37:56] <chopper79> lspci -v does not list a mesa card by name anyway
[23:38:03] <furrywolf> I should get a hot tub.
[23:38:21] <pcw_home> (not hardware related I can run PNCCONF here and get the ss tab without a 5i25 at all)
[23:38:24] <chopper79> I have no lights on the 5i25 either. Only on initial fire up on pc then the leds go out.
[23:38:31] <chopper79> oh..ok
[23:38:34] <pcw_home> thats correct
[23:39:30] <chopper79> the 7i76 has both yellow led . w2 is getting power from 5i25 and the field is powered with 12v.
[23:40:08] <chopper79> I guess i need to upgrade to the new version maybe. worked fine on other pc, just no this one i guess
[23:40:14] <pcw_home> lspci -v shoud show the PCI/DevID
[23:40:24] <chopper79> one sec i will check
[23:40:46] <pcw_home> Theoretically you could just update pncconf
[23:41:32] <pcw_home> lspci -vn | grep 2718:5125
[23:42:05] <chopper79> the only thing that seems like it would be the 5i25 is the following: dpio module: device 2718:5125
[23:42:17] <chopper79> yup i guess it sees it
[23:42:22] <pcw_home> Yep thats it
[23:42:31] <chopper79> Well I will upgrade pncconf then
[23:42:47] <chopper79> just upgrade through terminal?
[23:42:53] <furrywolf> I need to upgrade my mesa board to "existant".
[23:43:13] <pcw_home> Like I said pncconf should run to that point even without the card at all
[23:43:17] <rootB> is anyone here LinuxCNC?
[23:43:19] <chopper79> sudo apt-get upgrade pncconf ?
[23:43:26] <pcw_home> maybe
[23:43:27] <rootB> I own a Shapeoko 2 myself, a small CNC DIY machine
[23:43:38] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah green dead tree and wool minerials is required as reagents to summon one
[23:43:41] <XXCoder> heh
[23:43:46] <rootB> But I've notice that calibrating it and adjusting it is a pain in the ass and since I've use it for projects there's a lot of busted things in it
[23:43:56] <rootB> Would you guys suggest me to fix it up or buy another one?
[23:44:33] <chopper79> well i typed that and its doing something... I will report back in a couple minutes.
[23:46:57] <rootB> Or would you guys need pictures to help me out?
[23:49:09] <chopper79> rootB: I say if the frame is good, buy some new electronics and fix it up. I did a conversion for a buddy on a shapeoko to linuxcnc and he has not looked back since
[23:49:52] <chopper79> pcw_home: it may be a bit, looks like a lot of upgrades going on
[23:49:56] <rootB> The rails are good and so, I'd need to replace the delrin wheels and the screws since they're not precision screws
[23:50:19] <rootB> get a new board and NEMA 23 motors
[23:51:11] <chopper79> yup, fix up what you have if you can. the buddy I did the conversion for is wicked happy running linuxcnc on his.
[23:51:51] <rootB> Alright
[23:51:56] <rootB> does he mill metal on his machine?
[23:52:31] <chopper79> He has tried but the machine is to flimsy for that (personally)
[23:52:46] <rootB> I see
[23:52:54] <rootB> I've seen some people cutting aluminium with it and so
[23:53:51] <chopper79> yeah , people have and do. they also wear out their machines fast. To cut metal and have a good finish you need mass to absorb the cut forces involved when cutting metals.
[23:54:14] <rootB> I see
[23:54:34] <rootB> So the most effective way to mill metal is with a plasma cutter then?
[23:54:39] <chopper79> I have multiple machines and I sometimes cut aluminum but it still does not cut as good as a small bench top mill
[23:54:47] <chopper79> depends on your needs
[23:55:41] <rootB> Alright, well Im gonna try to upgrade my machine when I got the money
[23:55:53] <chopper79> plasma is nice, but i see plasma as weld ready parts and will not have a machine type finish
[23:57:14] <furrywolf> you don't really "mill" with a plasma cutter. not only a very different process, but plasma is a 2d method, while milling is 3d.
[23:57:42] <chopper79> im beginning to think i upgraded the wrong thing.....
[23:58:00] <chopper79> yes ...good correction furrywolf