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[02:10:44] <Deejay> moin
[02:39:41] <alex_joni> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbfEVtA7JMg
[02:49:08] <MrSunshine> how.. the .. hell
[02:49:35] <MrSunshine> some kind of black mojo there
[03:00:14] <alex_joni> geometry is a bitch
[03:00:37] <LeelooMinai> It seems it overlaps a a "guide" thread on top of the normal one to guid the bit or something like that
[03:00:57] <LeelooMinai> So the result thread is probably not perfect
[03:06:54] <MrSunshine> yeah feels like something has to be comporomized for the speed
[03:22:18] <SpeedEvil> MrSunshine: I'm not awake
[03:22:55] <SpeedEvil> Is that leaving a helical disruption in the thread by plunging, and then simply roll-forming all of the threads at once using half a turn then removing?
[03:34:25] <archivist> and two useless spirals to reduce the thread strength
[03:34:53] <SpeedEvil> Well - yes.
[03:35:07] <SpeedEvil> But by perhaps 20% tops.
[03:35:24] <SpeedEvil> And it's usually not as simple as that because that's not how thread engagement works
[03:35:53] <archivist> it is that simple
[03:36:52] <SpeedEvil> Not if the remaining thread can load the fastner to tensile failure
[03:37:09] <archivist> you then need a more accurate pitch on both parts to get better engagement to retain any strength
[03:38:15] <archivist> then the strain from the force changes all that putting a higher load on the reduced sized out threads
[03:38:22] <archivist> out/outer
[03:52:36] <Tom_shop> i bet that punch tap leaves a ridge inside
[03:54:58] <Tom_itx> used in high production threads, not precision threads
[04:22:19] <alex_joni> "When the tool plunges into the pre-drilled tap-hole, two helical grooves opposite each other are machined. By means of a 180° rotation the thread is cold-formed throughout the entire depth. The tool is now retracted from the thread through the two helical grooves."
[04:23:16] <alex_joni> and they use it for aluminum 7-12%Si only
[04:25:42] <alex_joni> . But does a thread manufactured by a Punch Tap really achieve the
[04:25:42] <alex_joni> same strength as a conventionally cold.formed thread? .The answer is a clear yes. In a transition
[04:25:45] <alex_joni> area with an unusually low screwed.in depth, the conventionally cold.formed thread performs a little
[04:25:48] <alex_joni> bit better under statical conditions which is not surprising and does not have any practical
[04:25:51] <alex_joni> consequences.
[04:26:08] <alex_joni> . The tests show nearly identical
[04:26:08] <alex_joni> strength values of the Punch Tap thread compared to conventionally cold.formed threads. The tests
[04:26:11] <alex_joni> are conducted among others with cylinderheads (workpiece material AlSi7Mg and AlSi10Mg) of AUDI
[04:42:19] <XXCoder> boo
[04:45:59] * Deejay frightens
[04:48:55] <XXCoder> whoa that was too much
[04:48:58] <XXCoder> heh
[04:55:46] <Deejay> ;-)
[04:59:45] <XXCoder> hows things
[05:13:38] <Deejay> little stressful atm
[05:14:14] <Deejay> but its good when the business is going, right? ;)
[05:14:36] <XXCoder> yeah
[05:14:42] <XXCoder> I did pretty well at work today too.
[05:14:51] <XXCoder> finished a job from setup to close
[05:15:00] <XXCoder> then I setup second job and did 1/3 of it
[05:17:37] <Deejay> sounds good :)
[05:17:53] <XXCoder> yeah far better than last week
[05:18:03] <XXCoder> I ruined 3 parts, all by stupid mistakes
[05:20:59] <XXCoder> whooo
[05:21:02] <XXCoder> ksp 1.0 is out
[05:21:14] <Deejay> hopefully you learned something and do better next time ;)
[06:52:14] <_methods> heh been thinking about that tap all the way into work
[06:52:37] <_methods> that spiral lets it make a partial thread form to depth
[06:52:44] <_methods> then it does a thread mill at bottom
[06:53:00] <_methods> then retracts on same pitch out
[06:53:34] <_methods> you'd have to do a tapping cycle to thread final depth, stop, circle mill thread, then tap cycle out
[06:54:15] <_methods> probably have to make a custom macro/canned cycle for that tap
[06:55:14] <_methods> you'd have to do multiple steps for deep tapped holes
[06:55:35] <_methods> would be awesome for shallow blind tapped holes
[06:59:37] <Tom_itx> so get half dozen of em and write us a cycle for it :D
[07:01:27] * jthornton can't visualize that tap in his head
[07:02:06] <jthornton> I think I'm backing up the XP...
[07:03:30] <jthornton> at least backuppc did not have an error yet on the backup
[07:18:19] <_methods> well i think the spiral and thread form cutters are spaced to allow it to cut a single thread form at a high pitch
[07:18:44] <_methods> then when it gets to depth and it's doing a thread/circle mill it's cutting the full thread form
[07:19:09] <_methods> but it's feeding in at like triple pitch initially
[07:19:15] <_methods> and feeding out at triple pitch
[07:21:12] <_methods> i think there's probably very little engagement of the tap teeth on the way in
[07:21:25] <_methods> it's probably cutting at minor dia just barely on the way in
[07:21:59] <_methods> then the thread mill cycle moves out to nominal dia and wipes out the cuts that may have been created on the way in
[07:23:21] <_methods> hmm nm i guess it's fully forming to depth
[07:24:33] <_methods> guess it only works in aluminum with 7-12% si
[07:26:47] <_methods> regular emuge taps are expensive i can only imagine how much those magical taps are
[07:27:47] <_methods> http://punchtap.com/en/download/ZP10093_GB_PunchTap-Flyer.pdf
[07:30:45] <_methods> well those sprial cuts it leaves through the threads will rule them out for any food grade or medical grade products
[07:36:29] <archivist> or high reliability, strength or accurate
[07:39:32] <MarkusBec> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbeb7yRb7M0&channel=1emugefranken
[08:32:56] <jthornton> baa, I'm in data restriction for the rest of the month
[08:33:11] <_methods> wtf?
[08:33:14] <_methods> your isp?
[08:33:24] <jthornton> used up my 10GB
[08:33:33] <jthornton> updating the shop computer
[08:33:59] <jthornton> on a good note I got the XP to backup
[08:34:09] <SpeedEvil> 10 whole gigabytes? Wow.
[08:35:27] <_methods> phone?
[08:35:40] <_methods> mobile data or something?
[08:35:47] <Tecan> 2 dollars a gig after 20 here
[08:35:58] <jthornton> satellite
[08:36:14] <_methods> you can't have the cloud lol
[08:36:16] <_methods> only fog
[08:36:31] <jthornton> lol only mist
[08:36:36] * SpeedEvil has just checked.
[08:36:59] <SpeedEvil> The last three months, I used 280-310gb eacn month.
[08:36:59] <_methods> man wtf you supposed to do with 10gb
[08:37:11] <_methods> yeah that sounds more like it lol
[08:37:14] <SpeedEvil> I have a stream up in the background.
[08:37:33] <Tecan> SpeedEvil i was that way untill they capped it
[08:37:37] <jthornton> your careful what you view like videos and photos
[08:37:42] <SpeedEvil> That's 'only' 110K/s
[08:38:26] <Tecan> jthorton you have the firefox plugin to pick the lower resolution video's on youtube yes ?
[08:38:39] <_methods> 277gb for me this month
[08:38:41] <Tecan> smartvideo for youtube
[08:38:44] <Tecan> its called
[08:39:14] <jthornton> $10 for another GB lol
[08:39:19] <Tecan> ouch
[08:39:20] <_methods> only 2.9tb so far this year lol
[08:39:53] <_methods> sux i lost my 3 years of rrd graphs when i updated my pfsense box
[08:39:58] <Tecan> methods you must be a pirate of somesort, downloading all the linux distro's wouldnt even total that
[08:39:59] <_methods> the rrd data got corrupted
[08:40:08] <jthornton> I have unlimited between 12pm and 5am
[08:40:20] <Tecan> i used to collect books then i stopped
[08:40:21] <_methods> pirate is an understatment lol
[08:40:39] <Tecan> stopped around 2008 when Aren got trialed
[08:40:50] <_methods> i have a plex server that some of my good friends get on and watch movies from that uses a bunch of bandwidth
[08:40:55] <SpeedEvil> ^all the above is legal data.
[08:41:28] <_methods> tor/vpn
[08:41:32] <_methods> FTW
[08:41:51] <_methods> i'm gonna enjoy the wild west as much as i can while it's still the wwild west
[08:42:00] <Tecan> cant says im jelous downloading useless shit takes alot of time
[08:42:23] <Tecan> time better spent coding and making things
[08:42:29] <SpeedEvil> For example, at the moment I'm streaming nasa tV
[08:42:43] <_methods> i like to relax and what a movie or tv show at times
[08:42:44] <SpeedEvil> rather than waiting for updates on the Progress mission which is currently failing
[08:42:49] <_methods> can't be makin chips all the time
[08:43:00] <_methods> s/what/watch
[08:43:11] <jthornton> dang I pay $50 a month for 10GB and $10 equipment leasing fee
[08:43:30] <Tecan> jthorton are you in the stix ?
[08:44:09] <Tecan> you might want to look into waverider hardware setup a unlicenced 900 mhz long range wifi setup
[08:44:11] <jthornton> yea, there is a cable that runs down the highway but it doesn't hook to anything lol
[08:44:24] <_methods> man that's brutal
[08:44:33] <_methods> not sure what i'd do without my internetz
[08:44:45] <Tecan> there are lots of last mile options for highspeed too
[08:44:46] <jthornton> could be worse I could be on Hughes net lol
[08:44:50] <Tecan> adsl2 or vdsl
[08:44:53] <Tecan> xdsl
[08:45:20] <Tecan> think its like 5km range or something
[08:45:29] <Tecan> through a copper twisted pair
[08:45:52] <_methods> all i have at work is dsl and it's painful
[08:45:56] <jthornton> and who would I connect this to?
[08:46:25] <_methods> half the time i have to remote into my home network and do all my downloading thorugh that then at lunch put what i need on a thumb drive
[08:49:07] <Tecan> one thing you will find with downloading is its hard to stop, losses can be catastrophic and it takes lots of time sorting
[08:49:57] <Tecan> before 500 gb harddrives we used to have to store everything on dvd's
[08:52:34] <JT-Shop> my big killer used to be solidworks downloading updates
[08:53:11] <Tecan> apple updates get like that too with alot of devices
[08:53:34] <Tecan> couple phones and an ipad is like 1.5 gb worth of updates every month
[08:54:18] <_methods> 10gb is a sneeze lol
[09:25:30] <cpresser> is there a clever trick for a second set of reverse kinematics?
[09:26:24] <cpresser> i am going to mount a camera to my scara robot, however its not in the controlled point. the offset is fixed in joint coordinates, but not in cartesian.
[09:26:54] <cpresser> but in order to actually use the camera, i need its cartesian xy values.
[09:37:20] <_methods> anyone in here have one of these
[09:37:22] <_methods> http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-shear-press-brake-and-slip-roll-5907.html
[09:59:07] <CaptHindsight> _methods: yes
[09:59:59] <CaptHindsight> got it for something I needed right away, mostly gets tripped over now
[10:04:49] <_methods> ahh
[10:04:56] <_methods> so it pretty much sux?
[10:05:11] <_methods> i wouldn't expect a whole lot more from it
[10:05:29] <_methods> thought it might be nice for making some small enclosures and stuff
[10:15:33] <dirty_d> jbweld to the rescue
http://i.imgur.com/77Nyo6k.jpg
[10:15:57] <dirty_d> never used it before, hopefully it holds up
[10:16:42] <_methods> hahah it always works until you need it
[10:16:49] <_methods> then it blows up on you hehe
[10:17:12] <_methods> jb weld is good buddies with that murphy guy
[10:18:11] <Rab> That Jefferson talisman should bring good luck, though.
[10:18:47] <_methods> heheh
[10:19:23] <_methods> adding money to a project always helps haha
[10:19:28] <dirty_d> it doent have to hold any weight, but its a carb thats bolted to an engine, so i guess it will be vibrating a lot
[10:19:57] <_methods> it will work fine until your wife is about to give birth or something equally important
[10:20:09] <_methods> then it will blow up
[10:21:19] <dirty_d> lol
[10:21:25] <dirty_d> hmm how does this work with no flux? <_methods> it will work fine until your wife is about to give birth or something equally important
[10:21:28] <dirty_d> oops
[10:21:35] <dirty_d> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFf3zO2Ys64
[10:22:16] <_methods> no idea never tried brazing alum
[10:22:32] <_methods> must be something in the stick that shields
[10:23:06] <Rab> I hear you can solder to aluminum, under oil.
[10:23:28] <Rab> I haven't tried it. I assume you have to scrape off the oxide layer under oil first.
[10:24:53] <furrywolf> you can solder aluminum in air just fine with nickel filler
[10:25:07] <dirty_d> this looks like it works better
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrCMMEs5pdI
[10:25:19] <furrywolf> somewhere on the solder - brazing scale, at least.
[10:25:40] <dirty_d> nickel?
[10:25:45] <dirty_d> that melts at like 2500F
[10:26:09] <furrywolf> the aluminum brazing rods are mostly nickel iirc.
[10:27:35] <CaptHindsight> _methods: if you adjust it and get the hang of it then it does its job
[10:27:49] <_methods> like most HF stuff i guess
[10:28:06] <CaptHindsight> _methods: used it to make cold roll and SS enclosures
[10:28:19] <CaptHindsight> I mostly use it as a shear
[10:28:29] <_methods> can it bend 14ga plain carbon?
[10:28:43] <_methods> i'm guessing that would be pushing it
[10:28:49] <_methods> from teh look of the punches and die
[10:29:19] <CaptHindsight> _methods: I'd wear glasses and not do too many
[10:29:35] <_methods> well i won't do that then lol
[10:29:44] <_methods> 16ga?
[10:29:58] <_methods> i see the shear has a 22ga max
[10:30:04] <CaptHindsight> the main complaints are poor castings with voids
[10:30:18] <_methods> i saw one guy bitching that the casting snapped in half on him
[10:30:27] <CaptHindsight> I've cut #18 SS
[10:30:38] <_methods> well i could live with #18
[10:30:49] <_methods> that's good enough for what i want to do
[10:31:08] <_methods> if it will shear 18ga ss then it should bend 16ga pcs
[10:31:21] <CaptHindsight> I can try later
[10:31:40] <CaptHindsight> never used the rollers
[10:31:45] <_methods> 16ga is a good thickness for little enclosures
[10:31:48] <furrywolf> http://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-low-temperature-aluminum-welding-rods-44810.html HF sells them as "welding", but it's brazing/soldering.
[10:34:57] <furrywolf> maybe it's zinc not nickel. been a while since I've looked at them.
[10:35:18] <membiblio> Greetings everyone. Have any of you ever run a Frenic 50000 (G9S) manually from the front panel, hit the PROTECTED DATA item and been able to change the device (in reg 200 I think?) to unprotected and then run it manually?
[10:35:28] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: I have those
[10:36:45] <CaptHindsight> works in a pinch to fill voids, not good for sheet unless you get really good since the aluminum melts just above the temp of the rods
[10:36:59] <furrywolf> zinc probably would make more sense. lol
[10:37:27] <dirty_d> hmm, this stuff looks like it works pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iwawTk9gXI
[10:37:40] <CaptHindsight> _methods:
http://imagebin.ca/v/1ztphWKVKTyP used it to make SS enclosures
[10:38:04] <CaptHindsight> save me thousands over off the shelf units
[10:39:14] <_methods> yeah that's what i want it for
[10:39:34] <_methods> be nice to make my own square to rounds and ductwork stuff too
[10:40:00] <CaptHindsight> $200 in SS sheet and $100 in restaurant SS steam table pans
[10:40:03] <_methods> what is that a 3 stage cleaning station?
[10:40:12] <CaptHindsight> water baths
[10:40:30] <_methods> haha sous vide cookers
[10:40:36] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[10:40:53] <_methods> didn't even take the coating off the stainless lol
[10:40:53] <CaptHindsight> also $200ea vs $2k for a lab heater
[10:41:33] <_methods> well that sounds like it would bend whatever i have planned
[10:41:46] <_methods> if i need to bend anything heavier i can just do it at work
[10:42:56] <CaptHindsight> yeah, I figured I'd just get a press brake if I ever needed to make a large run
[10:43:47] <PetefromTn_> Jeez man broke a tap in a stainless part and I GOTTA get it out SIGH!
[10:43:57] <_methods> http://imgur.com/6zqYSod
[10:44:07] <_methods> had to bend that in bench vise lol
[10:44:15] <_methods> ugh broken taps suck ballz
[10:45:10] <PetefromTn_> Indeed
[10:45:17] <_methods> what size tap?
[10:45:28] <CaptHindsight> _methods: should be fine for things like that
[10:45:34] <PetefromTn_> I think it was a 10-32
[10:45:39] <_methods> ouch
[10:45:47] <PetefromTn_> yeah I may be screwd here.
[10:46:04] <PetefromTn_> worst part is it was deep when it broke of course
[10:46:16] <_methods> 1/8" carbide end mill
[10:46:25] <PetefromTn_> I don't have a carbide drill that thin
[10:46:46] <_methods> hmmm
[10:46:49] <_methods> no carbide
[10:46:51] <PetefromTn_> I have some 3 flute carbide maritool endmills
[10:47:04] <PetefromTn_> 1/8 inch
[10:47:09] <_methods> well be prepared to lose some then
[10:47:15] <_methods> those will work just take it slow
[10:47:51] <_methods> how accurate can you locate on the tap now?
[10:48:12] <_methods> 1/8 should wipe out most of the tap i would think
[10:48:13] <PetefromTn_> worst part is the machine is setup with a fixture I don't want to move right now..
[10:48:23] <PetefromTn_> not very unfortunately
[10:48:37] <_methods> yeaht that's usually how it is lol
[10:48:53] <PetefromTn_> I may be able to clamp down another vise on the side and hold the part
[10:49:03] <PetefromTn_> sucks AZZ
[10:49:48] <roycroft> i've decided to be done with breaking taps for a while
[10:49:52] <roycroft> it's too much of a pain in the butt
[10:49:59] <PetefromTn_> I was pleasantly surprised at how good these maritool 4 flute tialn endmills did in that cast iron part yesterday. I figured I would be breaking stuff but it worked beautifully.
[10:50:04] <_methods> nothing like a broken tap to put a grinding halt on all progress
[10:50:19] <_methods> yeah cast iron is usually cake
[10:50:23] <PetefromTn_> whats stupid is it seemed to be tapping really well.
[10:50:24] <_methods> just the dust sux
[10:50:40] <PetefromTn_> then SNAP!
[10:50:56] <_methods> is it a lot of holes?
[10:50:57] <PetefromTn_> just frustrating
[10:51:02] <PetefromTn_> just one
[10:51:14] <_methods> you only have to tap one hole per part?
[10:51:15] <PetefromTn_> its in the side of a radiused piece
[10:51:26] <PetefromTn_> no the part has three holes
[10:51:32] <PetefromTn_> it broke on the last hole
[10:51:41] <_methods> that sux
[10:51:49] <PetefromTn_> big time
[10:52:00] <roycroft> it always breaks on the last hole
[10:52:04] <_methods> yep
[10:52:18] <_methods> one of those life rules lol
[10:52:19] <roycroft> or right after you've done the most difficult machining operation
[10:52:32] <_methods> thy tappeth shall always breaketh upon the lasteth hole
[10:52:45] <PetefromTn_> Well I will try to mill it out with the MPG and that endmill I guess
[10:53:01] <_methods> i hope your not too attached to teh endmill
[10:53:04] <CaptHindsight> that happened to me so often, I now stop before the last hole and take my time
[10:53:16] <_methods> i always seem to snap an endmill gettin one out
[10:53:21] <PetefromTn_> naah I am more attached to the part I think. GOt several of these 3 fluters here..
[10:53:30] <_methods> yeah that's a good situationt hen
[10:53:38] <_methods> drill away
[10:53:42] <CaptHindsight> same for dill bits in SS
[10:54:16] <_methods> i wonder if you could make like a ghetto tap disentegrator with an arc gouge rod turned down to a small diameter
[10:54:28] <_methods> i might have to try that one day
[10:54:35] <CaptHindsight> hand held EDM
[10:54:38] <_methods> yeah
[10:55:31] <tjtr33> MarkusBec, thx, the punch tap is cool. (older techs actually orbit like edm )
[10:56:52] <_methods> PetefromTn_: make sure you bust off as much of the tap stickin out as possible
[10:56:59] <_methods> try to get it as flat as you can
[10:57:31] <CaptHindsight> then put a sticker over it :)
[10:57:36] <_methods> hahahah
[10:57:50] <_methods> now that's a good idea
[10:58:09] <roycroft> i've wondered in the past if a round ended end mill would be good to start grinding down a broken tap while flattening it out
[10:58:40] <roycroft> i've tried using punches and the like to chip away the jagged edge but usually don't end up doing a very good job of it
[10:58:57] <CaptHindsight> end mill vs ball joint caps, the caps win
[10:59:18] <roycroft> then i try an end mill, but as careful as i can be, the end mill often grabs on a jagged bit of the tap and breaks
[11:01:01] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjCytNO1lNU Spark erosion removal of broken thread in turbo charger
[11:01:45] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbeKxFBZrF8 Broken Tap Removal by Metal Disintegration Machine (MDM)
[11:02:46] <tjtr33> mdm aint edm, mdm makes contact, arcs and retracts (rinse repeat ) edm never touches and sparks ( sparks aint arcs ) :)
[11:03:08] <CaptHindsight> yeah, I wasn't gettin picky
[11:03:40] <tjtr33> this week Capt ( recovering still )
[11:03:53] <CaptHindsight> no problem :)
[11:05:29] <_methods> yeah you usually end up losing an endmill when the tap spins in there when you get to the bottom
[11:11:50] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/t-handle-tap-ratchet-wrench-97633.html so far this is the only HF tool that is well worth the $20
[11:12:20] <CaptHindsight> and maybe some hammers
[11:14:18] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/dollies/30-in-x-18-in-1000-lb-capacity-polypropylene-dolly-69565.html and I keep 500lb drums on these without issue
[11:16:27] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/sockets-ratchets.html and these make for great paperweights :)
[11:16:45] <roycroft> i'll buy a hf hand tool once in a while
[11:16:55] <roycroft> when i need a throw-away tool
[11:17:32] <Rab> I have one of their 1/2" deep impact socket sets and honestly, it's been indestructable for automotive stuff.
[11:18:05] <CaptHindsight> the packaged sets of screws, clips, solderless connectors etc are also low cost and handy
[11:18:24] <Rab> I'm more suspicious of that stuff.
[11:18:31] <roycroft> i occasionally have to remove a fastener that i can't access with conventional tools, but if i take an open end wrench and bend and twist it just so i can get a purchase on the fastener
[11:18:35] <Rab> Escpecially anything electrical.
[11:18:36] <roycroft> that's where hf and a torch come in handy
[11:18:57] <roycroft> their marine heat shrink tubing actually works decently
[11:18:58] <CaptHindsight> I use a HF compound miter with a really nice non-ferrous saw blade for cutting extrusions
[11:19:06] <roycroft> and i buy nitrile gloves from hf
[11:19:23] <Rab> ^^
[11:19:27] <CaptHindsight> I thought I'd be returing it after 6 months for the warranty but I haven't even gone through the first set of brushes
[11:19:38] <CaptHindsight> the saw blade cost more than the saw
[11:19:48] <roycroft> their hydraulic body tools are ok too
[11:20:13] <Rab> Oh also, the $15 HF angle grinder is indestructable. I've had a bunch of friends buy them and try.
[11:20:41] <Rab> Pretty good value.
[11:20:45] <CaptHindsight> Rab: electric or pneumatic?
[11:20:49] <Rab> CaptHindsight, electric.
[11:21:10] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/grinders-buffers/4-12-in-43-amp-angle-grinder-60625.html
[11:21:28] <Rab> Yeah, that.
[11:21:49] <roycroft> yes, i buy those, rab
[11:21:53] <roycroft> the grinders
[11:22:06] <CaptHindsight> I tried the band saw and returned it the same day
[11:22:08] <Rab> They have a "heavy duty" one for $5-10 more, but I don't know if the price/disposability calculus makes it worth it.
[11:22:08] <roycroft> i have a set with wire brushes - one for steel, one for ss, and one for aluminium
[11:22:18] <roycroft> and the same with grinding wheels
[11:22:42] <roycroft> the tools are so cheap it's worth having multiples to save having to swap tooling around
[11:22:49] <Rab> Their palm sander is a total POS, don't be fooled. Anything name brand is better.
[11:23:22] <CaptHindsight> no real success with their pneumatic tools
[11:26:30] <_methods> i have this 5 gallon air compressor i got from harbor freight like 10 years ago
[11:26:41] <_methods> damn thing just won't di
[11:26:43] <_methods> die
[11:27:15] <_methods> i've never added oil to it or anything and i've abused the hell out of it hoping it would die so i would have a good excuse to buy a new better compressor
[11:29:21] <Rab> Weird how they're so hit and miss across a line of seemingly equivalent junky products.
[11:31:23] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-double-bevel-sliding-compound-miter-saw-with-laser-guide-system-61969.html got this on special for ~$100 and added
http://tenryusawblades.com/product.php?productid=17913
[11:32:03] <CaptHindsight> the bearings on the rails are a little crunchy but it cuts extrusions like butter
[11:33:28] <CaptHindsight> there's a plastic chip catcher that eventually melts from the hot aluminum chips, but you don't need it anyway
[11:35:04] <CaptHindsight> I don't know if there's anything better until you get into a >$1k cold saw
[11:35:55] <membiblio> Answering my own question via Fuji tech support - To change Frenic 5000 from protected to not - Press the SHIFT plus either UP or DOWN while in the appropriate register. :) Thanks
[11:35:57] <CaptHindsight> all the compound miter saws at Home Depot, Menards, Lowe's etc are all about the same
[11:42:10] <roycroft> are you in minnesota, capthindsight?
[11:42:37] <CaptHindsight> roycroft: Chicago
[11:42:42] <roycroft> oh?
[11:42:52] <roycroft> i didn't think menard's have expanded that far
[11:43:10] <roycroft> it certatinly wasn't there when i lived in chicago
[11:43:11] <CaptHindsight> been around for at least 30 years
[11:43:14] <roycroft> but i haven't lived there since 1980
[11:44:47] <CaptHindsight> most of their tools are HF quality
[11:45:32] <roycroft> i've been to one a few times
[11:45:36] <roycroft> i used to have a gf from north dakota
[11:45:41] <CaptHindsight> they do carry Irwin for tap and dies, but they are always out of whatever size I need
[11:45:43] <roycroft> right on the minnesota border
[11:45:55] <roycroft> and yes, it was pretty crappy stuff
[11:46:00] <roycroft> hf to ace hardware in quality
[11:46:46] <roycroft> stuff a farmer could buy on sunday because he needs it on sunday, but knows it won't last 'til monday
[11:47:01] <CaptHindsight> yeah, open till 10pm
[11:47:13] <roycroft> when that tractor needs fixin' it doesn't matter what day it is
[11:47:56] <CaptHindsight> lower cost than Ace
[11:48:56] <CaptHindsight> Ace carries Craftsman hand tools now
[11:49:41] <jdh> craftsman is owned by k-mart?
[11:49:51] <Rab> Sears?
[11:50:29] <CaptHindsight> sears
[11:50:48] <CaptHindsight> the appeal was the lifetime warranty, no questions asked
[11:50:52] <Rab> membiblio, thanks for posting the answer for posterity!
[11:51:03] <jdh> sears is owned by kmart
[11:51:32] <CaptHindsight> you could bring in pair of vise grips welded to something and they would swap it
[11:51:47] <membiblio> You are welcome. I'm converting a Routech 250 Gantry Machine to Linux CNC. :)
[11:52:40] <Rab> CaptHindsight, last I heard they were disputing the exchange of brand new Craftsman tools. I think the value is gone.
[11:53:36] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[11:55:25] <PetefromTn_> well that maritool 3 flute carbide endmill is slowly chewing its way down thru that tap! about a quarter inch down so far...
[11:56:44] <Rab> PetefromTn_, I use carbide dental burs in a dremel tool to chew out the center of the tap until the sides crack.
[11:57:05] <Rab> A little time-consuming.
[11:57:20] <PetefromTn_> 5500 RPM and incremental jogging with mpg in .0001 steps slowly..
[11:57:21] <Rab> But the burs are very robust, and free from my dentist.
[11:57:58] <PetefromTn_> yeah I have actually a US made high quality pencil die grinder and some carbide burrs of different profiles and it did not seem to work too well.
[11:58:13] <PetefromTn_> I don't have a carbide drill that small so I am using the endmill.
[11:58:28] <PetefromTn_> all I know is while slow and tedious it is working.
[11:58:45] <PetefromTn_> if it saves my part it would be worth several of these endmills...
[11:59:08] <PetefromTn_> I stopped for a bit to cool down the part it was getting a bit hot
[11:59:10] <_methods> yeah as long as you go slow
[11:59:12] <_methods> should be fine
[11:59:15] <Rab> I've broken carbide drills in screws and taps; then the cure is worse than the disease. ^_^
[11:59:19] <Connor> PetefromTn_: Broke a tap off ?
[11:59:24] <PetefromTn_> its about as slow as I can go..
[11:59:37] <_methods> yeah you should be good just watch out at the bottom
[11:59:42] <PetefromTn_> Connor Hey man yeah I broke a 10-32 off in a stainless part damnit...
[11:59:42] <_methods> the tap will break free and spin
[11:59:46] <_methods> and break the end mill
[11:59:47] <Rab> PetefromTn_, using any kind of liquid coolant?
[12:00:03] <PetefromTn_> I tried with and without coolant
[12:00:18] <PetefromTn_> and it seems to actually cut better without it...just the part gets hot after a bit
[12:00:30] <Connor> You break it hand tapping or with the machine ?
[12:00:55] <PetefromTn_> I have done it this way at the other shops I worked in and it seems to get the job done.
[12:01:04] <PetefromTn_> actually this one was hand tapped unfortunately...
[12:01:19] <PetefromTn_> It is DEEP so I wanted to do it by hand to have some more control...
[12:01:26] <PetefromTn_> you can see how that worked for me ;)
[12:01:38] <Connor> Yup. :)
[12:01:49] <PetefromTn_> It's a pisser..
[12:01:54] <Connor> You going to drill it and make it a bigger screw size ?
[12:01:55] <PetefromTn_> but shit happens..
[12:02:00] <PetefromTn_> dunno yet
[12:02:09] <PetefromTn_> depends on how much of the tap gets removed
[12:02:27] <PetefromTn_> I tried to line up the hole as good as I can but I think it is slightly off from center...
[12:02:46] <PetefromTn_> if I can punch thru with the endmill I will try to pick out the pieces and then drill it.
[12:02:49] <_methods> that's actually ok
[12:02:53] <Rab> Should be salvageable in SS. 10-32 doesn't have to get that deep before you break the fastener, so I wouldn't think the threads need to be perfect all the way down.
[12:02:55] <_methods> the thin side will come out easier
[12:03:06] <PetefromTn_> If I CAN get it out I will probably drill oversize and then retap
[12:03:17] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is kinda what I am hoping ;)
[12:03:58] <PetefromTn_> I have gotten a lot better at tapping and seldom break a tap off anymore but it is gonna happen unfortunately
[12:04:13] <_methods> i just had to do the same thing the other day
[12:04:14] <PetefromTn_> Quality taps make all the difference usually but this was totally my fault
[12:04:17] <_methods> busted an m4 tap
[12:04:23] <_methods> i knew i should have stopped
[12:04:28] <_methods> but i was like meh i got this
[12:04:30] <PetefromTn_> I know right
[12:04:43] <PetefromTn_> it got kinda tight just before but it SEEMED like it was still cutting...
[12:04:51] <PetefromTn_> then SNAP!!
[12:05:10] <PetefromTn_> Frackin' frustratin'
[12:05:15] <archivist> I just take part with dead tap to the local shop with an edm to get it burnt out
[12:05:35] <Rab> 7 threads of 10-32 is .219, so anything over .250 is probably just for fun. ^_^
[12:05:51] <PetefromTn_> agreed I did not need to go that deep typically
[12:06:02] <PetefromTn_> but this is sort of a clamp situation
[12:06:18] <CaptHindsight> the worst is breaking a tap with the part still attached to the machine or vehicle
[12:07:08] <PetefromTn_> archivist what do they usually charge you for that?
[12:07:27] <archivist> a note, I think a tenner
[12:07:48] <PetefromTn_> how much is that US LOL?
[12:07:49] <archivist> very cheap to save a part
[12:07:58] <archivist> 15 dolla
[12:07:59] <_methods> http://imgur.com/jdtsSrI
[12:08:05] <_methods> there's my fun tap
[12:08:22] <PetefromTn_> LOL that is almost EXACTLY what this part looks like hehehe
[12:08:29] <_methods> got it out and ran a tap right back thru
[12:08:30] <Connor> _methods: Ouch
[12:08:31] <_methods> good to go
[12:08:45] <archivist> edm will get that out easy _methods
[12:08:47] <_methods> lost an end mill though
[12:08:47] <PetefromTn_> damn that is a good result...
[12:09:14] <PetefromTn_> I don't care about the endmill really...these are not that expensive.
[12:09:15] <Connor> could you not back it out with vise grips? Looks like a stub stick up.
[12:09:40] <_methods> nah
[12:09:51] <_methods> and there was a lot in there
[12:09:55] <_methods> it was at full depth
[12:10:04] <Connor> Ouch
[12:10:22] <CaptHindsight> do they ever break with less than 50% in?
[12:10:24] <_methods> i just drilled it out with an 1/8" carbide end mill
[12:11:14] <Connor> okay. JT-Shop is giving me a head-ache
[12:11:21] <CaptHindsight> it supposed to be the last hole and clean break (no stub) with full depth
[12:11:34] <archivist> CaptHindsight, yes if hand held in a battery drill :)
[12:12:09] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: are you stuck in the door?
[12:12:41] <CaptHindsight> I think he's on satellite
[12:12:43] <archivist> he broke his internetz
[12:13:27] <CaptHindsight> maybe something nesting on the antenna
[12:13:32] <_methods> he's kicked off of satellite
[12:13:40] <_methods> he maxed out his 10gb
[12:14:26] <archivist> his chips are flying and screening the signal
[12:16:05] <CaptHindsight> 10GB, we do that some days without trying
[12:18:45] <Jymmm> I thought about going 4/3g but I didn't have any idea how much bandwidth I used on dsl. Yeah wireless got gonna happen, at least not at 30GB/Day on avg.
[12:20:21] <Connor> I switched from WoW to Comcast.. (Ugg.. don't ask) and was watching alot of shows from amazon Prime.. bust my 300GB cap 2 days ago..
[12:24:32] <CaptHindsight> had 4G for a few years with Clear
[12:24:57] <CaptHindsight> was hit or miss for speed, mostly used it for backup when ATT was down
[12:25:55] <Jymmm> I just wish that they would finally make "unlimited", well, unlimited for a flat rate price. No games, no fine print.
[12:26:40] <CaptHindsight> maybe after the revolution
[12:27:21] <CaptHindsight> I have a choice now of 4 crappy services
[12:27:44] <CaptHindsight> all about the same price with various level of cap or throttling
[12:32:09] <_methods> heh get all 4 and lagg them
[12:32:57] <CaptHindsight> I just can't bring myself to sign up for Comcast
[12:35:19] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KLNJ8d8Vqc Kirkham Motorsports University CNC Billet Aluminum 427 FE Engine Block 1 of 3
[12:37:42] <_methods> wow just think what they could do if they had a real cnc lol
[12:38:09] <Connor> CaptHindsight: I had no choice.. WoW dropped BBCA Can't go without my Doctor Who. I still have internet via WoW. So, I'm now triple redundant.
[12:43:44] <archivist> _methods, or a real cameraman
[12:43:52] <_methods> haha
[12:45:15] <PetefromTn_> got about another .1" or so to go... hehe
[12:45:45] <Rab> ...stay on target...
[12:45:46] <PetefromTn_> its actually working quite well so far thankfully. There may be hope for this damn part yet
[12:45:56] <PetefromTn_> LOL STAY ON TARGET!!
[12:46:15] <PetefromTn_> You've switched off your targeting computer!
[12:47:26] <PetefromTn_> giving it a break and having a beverage
[12:48:39] <_methods> hehe
[12:49:02] <_methods> you might have enough out now you can start peelin it out
[12:50:00] <PetefromTn_> I dunno I have been progressing .040" at a time and then stopping to cool and so far it is working. Got to get all the way thru I think before i start screwing with it manually no?
[12:50:16] <_methods> not necessarily
[12:50:32] <PetefromTn_> Beotch is deep!
[12:50:33] <_methods> if you can start peelin it out it might release enough that the rest of the tap will break up
[12:50:57] <_methods> i don't know i have apile of mold ejector pins for chippin stuff out like that lol
[12:51:03] <PetefromTn_> I know I am kinda pushing my luck here drilling deeper all the time LOL
[12:51:33] <PetefromTn_> It's hard to look down in the damn hole while its inside the machine
[12:51:54] <PetefromTn_> I have been putting an allen wrench down in there to guage depth
[12:52:09] <PetefromTn_> aside from the DRO's in case the cutter start slipping.
[12:53:46] <PetefromTn_> If the damn endmill breaks I think I will run out and start rioting and looting ;)
[12:58:58] <_methods> yeah i busted my end mill when i got to the bottom of mine
[12:59:06] <_methods> i had a little seizure
[12:59:33] <_methods> kinda upgrades the problem from bad to worse if you end up with a pile o' carbide in there
[12:59:50] <PetefromTn_> don
[12:59:58] <_methods> you could always whip up an edm real fast
[12:59:59] <PetefromTn_> don't even say that shit man
[13:00:00] <_methods> http://cscott.net/Projects/FabClass/final/edesign1.html
[13:00:31] <PetefromTn_> yeah right... I'll just whip one up LOL
[13:00:37] <CaptHindsight> http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/04/ap_ap-photo1501-640x436.jpg after game party or riot?
[13:00:46] <_methods> well i just went to town with a hammer and cold chisel on the carbide
[13:00:56] <_methods> luckily it breaks up better than a tap hehe
[13:01:36] <PetefromTn_> LOL thats a funny picture
[13:01:39] <_methods> maryland crab cake judo chop
[13:01:56] <PetefromTn_> the fat guy sitting at the table with all the beers looks like "Damn dude this is NOT good LOL"
[13:02:06] <PetefromTn_> I LOVE CRAB CAKES!
[13:02:18] <_methods> who doesn't
[13:03:03] <PetefromTn_> Oh I am sure there are a few misguided souls out there...Oh and my Son in law is allergic to seafood poor bastard.
[13:03:52] <_methods> mr krabs is a crab and even he likes crab cakes
[13:03:59] <PetefromTn_> Well gonna keep drilling here..BB in a bit.
[13:05:10] <_methods> good luck
[13:21:48] <t12> anyone use vicor ac -> dc supplies for servos?
[13:25:22] <CaptHindsight> t12: I've used lots of their FlatPAC in the past but not for servos
[13:25:32] <CaptHindsight> http://www.vicorpower.com/flatpac
[13:28:17] <CaptHindsight> we used them since they were off the shelf, and had a conduction cooling version
[13:30:30] <t12> what do people tend to use for 300-400vdc servo supplies?
[13:53:24] <CaptHindsight> t12 often the power supply is in the servo drive
[13:54:14] <CaptHindsight> the drives run off 120/240/480 1phase or 3 phase AC
[13:55:03] <CaptHindsight> t12 have an example servo motor?
[13:56:01] <PetefromTn_> AWESOME!!! Drilled right thru the tap and actually was able to retap the hole securely with the same size!! WIN!!!!!
[13:58:44] <CaptHindsight> t12: AC servo or DC
[14:01:14] <PetefromTn_> Endmill has seen better days but it did not break heh
[14:03:29] <_methods> right on
[14:03:42] <_methods> yeah usually if you just take it slow the end mill will live
[14:03:48] <_methods> but i always get too impatient
[14:04:09] <_methods> the same thing that got me into the broken tap situation usually
[14:04:37] <PetefromTn_> LOL I was pretty surprised that I could retap it the same size without issues... Just lucky I guess.
[14:04:53] <PetefromTn_> Gotta pickup my kids at school BB in a bit.
[14:06:53] <JT-Shop> I look at my taps under the microscope before using them and I stopped breaking them
[14:10:29] <Rab> PetefromTn_, great!
[14:11:06] <cpresser> any hints on how to handle a 'hm2/hm2_5i25.0 Smart serial card error = (13) Communication Error'?
[14:11:26] <cpresser> what could cause this? i already shielded all motor wires
[14:11:54] <JT-Shop> are your DC 0v tied to ground?
[14:12:11] <cpresser> yes
[14:12:19] <cpresser> at least field-voltage DC
[14:12:52] <cpresser> 0V for the encoders/7i76 is most likely grounded via the PC
[14:13:07] <cpresser> PC and machine share the same cabinet
[14:14:05] <_methods> JT-Shop: yeah inspecting the taps doesnt seem to ever stop me from being an idiot and continuing to use them for "just one more hole"
[14:14:09] <cpresser> what is the recommendation for grounding stuff?
[14:16:06] <JT-Shop> I've always tied all 0v to ground to avoid a floating 0v
[14:16:25] <cpresser> JT-Shop: thats the machine:
http://imgur.com/IcwFAHu,5L9kzKv,eEtsOcK
[14:16:31] <JT-Shop> _methods, I toss them in the "Hand Tap Only" box
[14:16:55] <_methods> yeah
[14:16:56] <t12> capt: ac
[14:17:04] <_methods> pull tester?
[14:17:08] <cpresser> JT-Shop: well, grounding everything sounds like a good idea anyway
[14:17:11] <cpresser> _methods: ack
[14:17:13] <JT-Shop> a tensile tester
[14:17:17] <t12> looking to power an 8i20
[14:17:25] <_methods> haha science words
[14:18:02] <PetefromTn_> Thanks Rab... yeah I am pretty pleased with that.
[14:18:21] <PetefromTn_> Now if I can just find the damn setscrew I dropped that is supposed to go in that damn hole LOL
[14:18:32] <JT-Shop> it's under the machine
[14:18:33] <_methods> hahah
[14:18:47] <_methods> or in the puddle of tears from when the tap broke
[14:18:49] <PetefromTn_> probably
[14:18:50] <cpresser> magnets FTW
[14:18:57] <JT-Shop> all low to the floor things have a universal attraction for small objects
[14:19:04] <PetefromTn_> I swear I cried like a bitch too hehe
[14:19:46] <PetefromTn_> I have machined out a bunch of taps but I am usually not that lucky with the smaller ones like this.
[14:19:48] <cpresser> this is my new toy:
https://ca.rstenpresser.de/blag/2015/04/hirata-ar-c270-scara-robot-retrofit-part1/
[14:20:53] <_methods> all hail carbide hehe
[14:21:10] <PetefromTn_> Yeah man the almighty carbide!!
[14:21:17] <PetefromTn_> Win Maritool!
[14:26:13] <JT-Shop> I wonder how long the 1.5MB download will take while being throttled
[14:26:28] <XXCoder> 10.1 decade
[14:27:19] <JT-Shop> 56kb per second lol
[14:28:28] <_methods> ouch
[14:28:34] <_methods> 56k modem
[14:28:35] <_methods> lol
[14:28:44] <XXCoder> yeah
[14:29:30] <Cromaglious_> heh I found a 300 direct connect modem the other day
[14:30:00] <Cromaglious_> so much faster than the 110baud aucustic coupler
[14:31:04] * Jymmm new paper shredder... http://www.wimp.com/shreddertrees/
[14:53:15] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/wq6ErPk.jpg My hero
[15:03:24] <_methods> HEHE
[15:08:54] <MrHindsight> _methods: just checked, that brake from HF did 18ga cold roll without issue
[15:21:35] <MrHindsight> _methods: 16ga was a bit harder (0.064') 1900 box cover
http://imagebin.ca/v/1zvE84S8Bcz2
[15:23:02] <MrHindsight> you might have a problem if it's 24" wide
[15:27:25] <Cromaglious_> wooo ultimate steam punk earrings. Miniture radiometer earrings
[15:27:56] <Cromaglious_> The guy that invented them had a tie stick pin with one.
[15:28:23] <Cromaglious_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0f5i7r02dg
[15:41:47] <Computer_barf> if you already have the configuration files, and you run PNCconf, you can essentially go through the wizard with whatever fields are already filled out from the configuration files?
[15:43:31] <cpresser> Computer_barf: not really. the wizards loads its data from a wizard-config file, not the actual machine config
[15:43:45] <cpresser> so if you did any changes manually, the wizard will overwrite them
[15:45:25] <_methods> MrHindsight: thx that will work
[15:45:39] <_methods> if it can bend a galv outlet box blak
[15:45:46] <_methods> blank
[15:46:00] <Computer_barf> ahh, yeah I have some configuration files pcw posted on the forum for the mesa 7i76e, im a noob so i dont really know what im looking at. I have three files 7i76e.txt , 7i76es1.ini and hm2pidstepper.hal
[15:46:23] <Computer_barf> i don't believe the first one is named what it should be
[15:46:39] <Computer_barf> it starts with "Configuration Name: HOSTMOT2"
[15:48:22] <Computer_barf> i believe this file delineates all the pins, but i imagine I need to change its title
[15:49:53] <JT-Shop> The following items were successfully performed:
[15:50:03] <JT-Shop> Failed to install printer driver
[15:51:16] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, bad connection today?
[15:51:47] <JT-Shop> lol I have the printer disk and I'm throttled to 56k the rest of the month
[15:52:20] <Tom_itx> heh
[15:54:39] <Cromaglious_> Jt can you receive pictures on your phone?
[15:54:51] <jthornton> yea
[15:55:09] <Cromaglious_> I could text you a driver rename blah.jpg
[15:55:18] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you finally get xp to backup?
[15:55:27] <jthornton> almost
[15:56:06] <jthornton> I went to HP and they don't have a driver for 7 for my printer... I wonder how it worked before
[15:56:19] <Cromaglious_> which printer?
[15:56:22] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, have you run 2.7 on a machine yet?
[15:56:39] <Tom_itx> i loaded it last night but won't be able to try it for a while
[15:56:44] <Cromaglious_> is it PCL 5, 5e, or 6?
[15:56:48] <jthornton> deskjet 1220c
[15:57:06] <jthornton> so I was searching for a 1200c no wonder I could not find it
[15:57:28] <jthornton> Tom_itx, yes my plasma is running 2.7 pre 6 or something like that
[15:57:28] <Tom_itx> i had a similar problem... they suggested one that was close to mine and it works fair
[15:57:31] <Cromaglious_> win7 x64?
[15:57:53] <Tom_itx> mine was a deskjet 6122
[15:58:01] <jthornton> yea, I'll look in the morning again when I have unlimited download
[15:58:29] <Tom_itx> you likely already have the driver
[15:58:37] <Tom_itx> just finding a compatible printer
[15:58:39] <Cromaglious_> May 1st is Thursday isn't it
[15:58:45] <jthornton> yea, I just looked for the wrong one
[15:59:03] <jthornton> Friday
[15:59:03] <Tom_itx> iirc i wound up using something like a 990 or such
[15:59:18] <Cromaglious_> I don
[15:59:28] <Cromaglious_> I don't do inkjets... Only lasers
[15:59:33] <jthornton> be back later, going to the other shop to dl my SW service pack
[15:59:40] <Cromaglious_> Much cheaper in the long run
[16:00:51] <Cromaglious_> ugh... Wish the postalworker would get here... See if I got my ATmega386p Arduino
[16:01:02] <Cromaglious_> it'll probably be another week
[16:01:12] <Tom_itx> they had some strange installation procedure too
[16:02:04] <Tom_itx> ms says the 1220c is win7 compatible
[16:02:56] <Tom_itx> i bet you could find it on the win7 disk
[16:03:51] <Tom_itx> mine was _almost_ compatible.. i had to adjust some forms etc for margins
[16:06:37] <Tom_itx> HP says to connect the USB cable and windows update will find the driver
[16:13:01] <Cromaglious_> grbl requires a ATmega328p chip, the ATmega2560 will not work, so my Mega is SOL
[16:18:07] <_methods> eww grbl
[16:25:15] <Tom_itx> Cromaglious_ you can't port it?
[16:25:28] <Tom_itx> shouldn't be that difficult
[16:27:09] <Tom_itx> mmmmm. maybe not
[16:29:17] <Deejay> gn8
[16:29:19] <Computer_barf> pcw around?
[16:35:47] <Cromaglious_> I probably could given 5 years
[16:38:22] <Cromaglious_> grbl allows up to 50khz timing. vs the 17khz this computer does
[16:39:09] <Tom_itx> get some mesa boards
[16:39:52] <Cromaglious_> $$$$ which I don't have
[16:39:53] <malcom2073> grbl does 30khz
[16:40:01] <malcom2073> About the same as a decent PC out of a parallel port
[16:40:13] <Cromaglious_> I don't have decent PC's
[16:40:25] <Jymmm> Rust-Oleum® Aircraft Remover removes powder coating
[16:40:25] <malcom2073> Go buy one? I get mine for $5 from yardsales usually
[16:40:27] <malcom2073> :P
[16:40:58] <Cromaglious_> That requires a drivers license
[16:41:39] <malcom2073> What are you running at that speed anyway?
[16:42:43] <Cromaglious_> trying to see if higher amperage will aloow faster stepper speeds
[16:43:24] <Cromaglious_> I do see I need to upgrade from the TB6560 to TB6600's
[16:44:13] <Tom_itx> Cromaglious_, higher voltage will
[16:44:33] <malcom2073> higher voltage gives you higher speed before torque dropoff, higher current gives you higher torque rating... before torque dropoff
[16:45:07] <malcom2073> Be aware, grbl does some nasty things with acceleration when you use junction deviation, not a problem for milling machines, but anything fast like a laser or 3d printer you may see it
[16:48:49] <Cromaglious_> hmmm so I need to find a 48v supply
[16:49:07] <Cromaglious_> my 19v is to low of voltage
[16:49:17] <Cromaglious_> s/ to / too /
[16:49:53] <Cromaglious_> laptop supply
[16:54:12] <malcom2073> 36v bricks are fairly cheap on amazon, not sure about 48v
[16:54:33] <Computer_barf> hm2-pidstepper.hal:42: Can't find modules 'hm2_eth' in /user/realtime-3.4-9-rtai-686-pae/modules/linuxcnc4362
[16:56:55] <Cromaglious_> well my 4 relay arduino module showed up and my 7 piece mm er11 collet set as well
[16:56:58] <Rab> Cromaglious_, how much current? There are a bunch of 48V SMPSs on eBay, "for LED strip".
[16:57:40] <Cromaglious_> hmm at least 400w I think
[16:58:26] <Rab> http://item.ebay.com/321687502604
[16:59:34] <Rab> "110/220V Input--Zero line and FireWire are not differentiate
[16:59:49] <Rab> I guess they're trying to say it's non-polarized?
[17:00:11] <Rab> FireWire = Hot? lol
[17:00:35] <malcom2073> My guess they're seing that 220 is not a split-phase
[17:00:43] <malcom2073> it's 0-220 instead of -110-110?
[17:00:55] <Rab> hmm
[17:01:09] <malcom2073> Odd
[17:01:17] <Cromaglious_> hehe
[17:01:58] <Cromaglious_> well I just got 250' of SOOW 10/4 for $537 for the shakespoeare company... OPM Other Peoples Money
[17:03:01] <Cromaglious_> running 120v on 2 circuits and breaking those out into Aa Ab, and Ba and Bb circuits at the breakout
[17:04:09] <Cromaglious_> A and B can pull 28amps each, a and b combined can pull 28 amps, up to 20amps per a or b
[17:04:58] <Cromaglious_> ideally should have gotten 8/4 but that was another $250 on top of the 537
[17:06:31] <Cromaglious_> now to find a hand truck to butcher to make a rolling stand for the wire reel. The boxes are going on the side of the reel so I don't have to have slip rings or another plug and socket
[17:13:57] <PCW> "hm2-pidstepper.hal:42: Can't find modules 'hm2_eth' in /user/realtime-3.4-9-rtai-686-pae/modules/linuxcnc4362"
[17:13:59] <PCW> is expected if you try to run hm2_eth under RTAI
[17:14:00] <PCW> (the uspace version of linuxcnc (that hm2_eth needs) is only supported with Preemt-RT for real time
[17:20:20] <cpresser> PCW: any hints on how to handle a 'hm2/hm2_5i25.0 Smart serial card error = (13) Communication Error'?
[17:21:03] <cpresser> PCW: what do you recommend for grounding? Vfield and PC-ground together?
[17:27:58] <PCW> Normally there's no reason to ground them together (they are completely isolated)
[17:31:28] <PCW> if you have sserial communication errors with a 7I6 or 7I77 , its normally 1 of 2 things
[17:31:29] <PCW> 1: Marginal 5V power on the 7I76.7I77
[17:31:31] <PCW> 2: A ground loop so HF noise is severe enough to generate more
[17:31:33] <PCW> than about 1V ground differential between the 7I76,7I77 and the FPGA card
[17:46:17] <cpresser> PCW: so an additional 5V PSU and grounding everything should do the job?
[17:47:15] <cpresser> is EMI an issue?
[17:48:46] <PCW> Yes, if its coupled into the 5i25/7I76/77 cable
[17:50:35] <PCW> is this a 7I76 or 7I77?
[18:19:26] <cpresser> PCW: 7i76 with 6i25
[18:22:40] <PCW> maybe a grounding issue (Usually cable power is OK for a 7I76)
[18:22:54] <PCW> when do you see the error?
[18:23:02] <cpresser> besides, there is only one encoder connected to the 5V rail
[18:23:30] <cpresser> as a fact, i didnt do proper grounding for all parts of the machine. i will do so next
[18:25:41] <PCW> if substantial ground current (especially HF from drives or a VFD) ends up flowing in the parallel cable you can get serial errors
[18:25:43] <PCW> (Usually extra char errors or CRC errors)
[18:26:20] <cpresser> its an extra char error, so that seems plausible
[18:31:19] <cpresser> PCW: another question regarding the 7i77 (different machine). the servo-amps have 2 analog and 3 enable inputs. so far i figured that one analog is velocity. the 3 digital inputs seem to be some kind of enable. one switches relais on the driver (labeled RDY), the other two are labeled 'STOP' and 'GC'. any idea what those might be?
[18:31:47] <cpresser> i put some of my findings up here:
https://ca.rstenpresser.de/blag/2015/04/hirata-ar-c270-scara-robot-retrofit-part1/
[18:33:11] <cpresser> the other unknown analog-input is labeled 'REF'. with the original control it was stuck at 0V all the time (estop, idle, motion)
[18:33:11] <JT-Shop> PCW, is there an isolation board that helps with that?
[18:33:26] <JT-Shop> I still get it from time to time even with a 5v power supply
[18:34:53] <cpresser> JT-Shop: yes, there is a "7I77ISOL" card on the website
[18:36:30] <JT-Shop> hmm I need 650MB of windoze updates before I can install my printer
[18:37:17] <cpresser> get a new printer :)
[18:38:01] <Tom_itx> yeah after installing win7 i spent day an a half doing 200 updates
[18:38:04] <Tom_itx> go figure
[18:38:31] <Tom_itx> and it's still asking for more hdd space
[18:38:48] <JT-Shop> yea the printer driver is only in windoze update, you can't download it
[18:42:07] <Computer_Barf1> https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RT_PREEMPT_HOWTO im trying to follow this link to create a patched kernel so i can install an rt-prempt kernel on my debian linuxcnc machine
[18:43:15] <Computer_Barf1> however , the instructions on how to patch it are based on a command like : bzcat ../patch-2.6.23.1-rt1.bz2 | patch -p1
[18:43:58] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop i think it's their way of keeping track of you
[18:44:13] <Computer_Barf1> however , when i navigate to the files on kernel.org, none of the recent patches for the more recent kernals are composedness with .bz2
[18:44:19] <Computer_Barf1> they are all .gz
[18:44:40] <Computer_Barf1> so i have no idea what command I am supposed to issue to patch the kernel with
[18:44:44] <cpresser> Computer_Barf1: WE
[18:44:52] <Computer_Barf1> WE?
[18:45:01] <cpresser> typo, mom...
[18:45:51] <cpresser> i was about to say: well, if you cant figure that out yourself you will need to invest a lot of time
[18:45:57] <cpresser> use zcat instead of bzcat
[18:46:12] <PCW> JT-Shop: yes, the isolation board helps
[18:47:17] <cpresser> Computer_Barf1: compiling a kernel is not that simple. but dont get discouraged. try to google your problems :)
[18:48:19] <Computer_Barf1> I tried to do it with Ketchup but that wasn't working either. I think the paths to the kernel.org server have changed since they developed ketchup
[18:49:37] <PCW> cpresser: not sure what STOP and GC mean, any hope on finding a drive manual?
[18:49:37] <Computer_Barf1> ok that worked
[18:49:49] <Computer_Barf1> it appears to have patched it
[18:50:17] <cpresser> PCW: nope, unfortunately there is none. i talked to the company which made them about 20years ago. they cant help
[18:50:40] <Computer_Barf1> it seems strange that they do not simply provide prepatched kernels
[18:51:18] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/rtconfig is approximately right
[18:51:22] <cpresser> PCW: the STOP and GC signals are routed to some hybrid-modules under a layer of expoxy. so there is no easy way to guess the function by looking at the pcb
[18:52:01] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/makert
[18:52:03] <PCW> I mean
[18:52:28] <cpresser> i will wire those signals to some gpios and switch them around to guess the function then :)
[18:52:35] <Computer_Barf1> was that directed at me PCW?\
[18:52:59] <PCW> if he original control works those are probable worth checking with a voltmeter
[18:53:35] <PCW> yes, Computer_Barf1: freeby.mesanet.com/makert
[18:54:19] <cpresser> PCW: did that. i also disassembled the original control and traced the pins to some optos. they are switched on as soon as motion starts, but are switched of then the machine is not moving
[18:54:57] <jthornton> baa I can't even send an email while 7 is trying to update
[18:55:09] <Computer_Barf1> PCW: i found a .ini file for the 7i76e that you had posted on the forum, so I had put that in my linuxcnc configuration folder , and ran that. I got some errors that basically lead me to needing to installing RT-net
[18:55:26] <Computer_Barf1> im a pretty basic linux user so im just trying to figure it out
[19:00:17] <PCW> Umm no, RT net is not used at all
[19:00:33] <Computer_Barf1> sorry
[19:00:41] <Computer_Barf1> rt-prempt
[19:00:51] <Computer_Barf1> confusion of words
[19:01:40] <PCW> Yes you can also start by installing the linuxcnc-uspace package which will bring in a preemt-RT kernel
[19:02:13] <Computer_Barf1> that list of commands is working so far but make xconfig had errors , im probably missing whatever is needed to compile it
[19:02:41] <PCW> xconfig needs QT-dev or some such
[19:03:05] <cpresser> try 'menuconfig'. it only needs ncurses-dev
[19:03:36] <PCW> if you fetch rtconfig its probably pretty close
[19:04:13] <Computer_Barf1> apt-get QT-dev didn't work
[19:04:18] <Computer_Barf1> nor menuconfig
[19:04:34] <cpresser> 'make menuconfig'
[19:04:59] <cpresser> and QT-dev is most likely "libqt4-dev" or libqt-dev"
[19:05:14] <Computer_Barf1> In file included from scripts/kconfig/mconf.c:23:0:
[19:05:14] <Computer_Barf1> scripts/kconfig/lxdialog/dialog.h:38:20: fatal error: curses.h: No such file or directory
[19:05:14] <Computer_Barf1> compilation terminated.
[19:05:51] <cpresser> Computer_Barf1: try to google that. its quite simple
[19:06:05] <cpresser> and perhaps helps you understand what went wrong :)
[19:06:09] <Computer_Barf1> apt-get libqt4-dev is installing
[19:07:01] <Computer_Barf1> isn't build-essentials part of that? I think I've done that in the past on other machines
[19:09:18] <Computer_Barf1> tried to make xconfig again after installing libqt4-dev , got qconf: cannot connect to X server
[19:09:29] <Computer_Barf1> perhaps because I'm doing this over ssh?
[19:15:06] <furrywolf> yay! even better than yard sale stuff, I just got free stuff!
[19:15:25] <furrywolf> I answered a craigslist ad for a free drywall hoist. it's like-new, in box. also got a free like-new toro lawnmower, two free 10gal fuel tanks with nozzles, hoses, etc, a free snap-on made-in-usa extra-large floor jack, a free milk crate of tools (about half craftsman), two free halogen worklights (one tripod, one with built-in 50ft cord reel), and a bunch of other free stuff.
[19:15:43] <furrywolf> I tried giving the guy money, but he refused to take it.
[19:16:47] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/bumble-bee-foods-2-managers-charged-death-man-cooked-tuna-n349641
[19:16:55] <SpeedEvil> why safety interlocks matter
[19:17:53] <LeelooMinai> What a lousy way to die - cooked with tuna...
[19:18:25] * furrywolf is in a good mood
[19:18:25] * furrywolf likes free tools!
[19:19:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: what about slightly contaminated free tuna?
[19:19:24] <furrywolf> argh. that page is even more broken than usual.
[19:20:10] <furrywolf> that has nothing to do with interlocks at all. that's a lockout/tagout issue.
[19:20:26] <furrywolf> anyone entering the oven should have locked it out.
[19:21:20] <furrywolf> the worker should have had his own padlock set. before entering the oven, his lock should have been put on the disconnect for it. no one else should be able to remove his lock.
[19:21:47] <furrywolf> most likely, he was officially supposed to do this, but management said it wasted time and anyone doing it would be fired.
[19:22:01] <LeelooMinai> Well, or both of the methods in case one forgets...
[19:22:35] <LeelooMinai> And maybe a third automatic that would detect people inside:)
[19:22:42] <malcom2073> Managers also often have keys to their employees lockout locks
[19:22:55] <furrywolf> there's no interlock to detect humans apart from tuna... it's purely a lockout issue.
[19:22:58] <malcom2073> But there are explicit procedures for a manager unlocking
[19:23:07] <malcom2073> typically requiring getting the guy on he phone and/or in person first :P
[19:23:19] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Sure there is - tuna usually does not enter the oven by itself and alive:p
[19:23:34] <malcom2073> How about an audio sensor? If it detects screaming, open
[19:23:42] <furrywolf> lol
[19:23:46] <LeelooMinai> What if the worker is mute:p
[19:24:27] <malcom2073> hmmm
[19:24:35] <furrywolf> if it was a space designed for routine entry, it'd probably have alarms, flashing lights, and an interior shutdown and door opening mechanism... but it's not. he was performing maintenance. he should have locked it out before entering.
[19:24:37] <malcom2073> ah he got 6 tons of tune dumped on him
[19:24:39] <malcom2073> not much would solve that
[19:24:47] <malcom2073> tuna
[19:24:54] <malcom2073> fortunatly that likely killed him before the cooking
[19:25:19] <furrywolf> now, while he should have locked it out, it's quite likely, if not most likely, management objected to proper safety practices, which is why he didn't.
[19:25:53] <malcom2073> hence like,y the managers being charge
[19:25:58] <LeelooMinai> Now I will not eat tuna ever again
[19:26:00] <Rab> Scream sensor would false positive on the screaming of the sea kittens.
[19:26:22] <malcom2073> "Open the door Hal...."
[19:26:23] <furrywolf> if you touch a piece of equipment at the local mill without locking it out, you'll be fired on the spot. this is called "safety culture"...
[19:26:37] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Same for the machine shop in our building.
[19:26:46] <furrywolf> something some places have, and others don't. heh.
[19:26:47] <malcom2073> Plus, if you touch someone elses tag (they're not actually locks), you get fired
[19:26:58] <furrywolf> yep
[19:27:01] <LeelooMinai> With a flame thrower? That's a bit extreme, but ok...
[19:27:17] <malcom2073> LeelooMinai: LeelooMinai Safety third, behind revenge, and profit
[19:27:35] <furrywolf> probably depends on the size of the equipment. for example, the mill here has a bandsaw >3 stories tall. actual locks are more appropriate. :)
[19:27:56] <malcom2073> haha yeah, our biggest machine isn't big enough for someone to be "inside", eg: not visible from the lockout tag
[19:27:59] <furrywolf> 15ft drive wheels...
[19:28:30] <LeelooMinai> O, right, it probably has a tiny blade like that:
http://tic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/100_2010_1-e1298415709345.jpg
[19:28:35] <furrywolf> when you build a mill to cut >>10ft diameter trees, everything is big. :)
[19:29:05] <furrywolf> heh, yep, that's exactly what is uses. maybe a little larger. lol
[19:29:20] <furrywolf> it's REALLY impressive when it breaks.
[19:29:36] <LeelooMinai> Yes, it can cut your whole finger
[19:29:55] <malcom2073> by finger, you mean torso?
[19:30:01] <furrywolf> they have an employee whose entire job is maintaining the band.
[19:30:24] <LeelooMinai> I wonder if Home Depot carries those
[19:30:27] <furrywolf> they swap them out, so while they're cutting with one, he's sharpening, repairing, etc the others. full-time job.
[19:30:53] <furrywolf> and if he works on it without locking it out... he'll be looking for a new full-time job!
[19:31:01] <LeelooMinai> It probably costs as much as a car too
[19:31:22] <LeelooMinai> Well, expensive car:)
[19:32:49] <furrywolf> you can be sure bumblebee management is going to blame the employee when it goes to a judge... "our policy says he was required to lock out the oven's power before entering. it's not our fault he decided to recklessly endanger his own life."
[19:33:51] <Computer_barf> meh.. not the first time someone has been cooked in an industrial pressure cooker
[19:34:24] <LeelooMinai> "At that day he was wearing a t-shirt that was making him look like a big tuna. We don't know why he did that, but our employees were not able to distingush him from real tuna."
[19:34:42] <Computer_barf> im surprised no one has designed an internal interrupt for them
[19:35:02] <malcom2073> They may have one, but it's likely hard to reach when 6T of tune gets dumped on your head
[19:35:06] <malcom2073> like freezers have internal releases heh
[19:35:28] <Computer_barf> i dont think he was in there with a bunch of tuna. they usually have big rolling shelfing units that they put in there stacked with cans of tuna
[19:35:45] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Did you read the article, or pull a facebook and just the title? :-P
[19:36:03] <furrywolf> I was once at a job working on a roof... the manager started out with "for safety, osha says you need to wear a harness. if I catch you doing this, you can go wear your harness somewhere else and waste someone else's time."
[19:36:09] <Computer_barf> well just that's typically how tuna is cooked
[19:36:52] <Computer_barf> pressure sterilizing tuna in such a way wouldn't be effective
[19:38:01] <Computer_barf> thats kind of how those tuna companies doe it, i think if the article says he was in there with x tons of tuna, they mean, in there with the stacks
[19:38:59] <Computer_barf> "filled the pressure cooker with 12,000 pounds of canned tuna and it was turned on. "
[19:39:12] <Computer_barf> canned tuna.. the cans. Not loose tuna.
[19:42:50] <Computer_barf> http://imagizer.imageshack.us/scaled/landing/21/5498067415f6be4a8a4a1.jpg
[19:43:24] <Computer_barf> this is what they look like, they have big shelfing units that they roll in there. It's not like they dump raw tuna in there.
[19:43:43] <LeelooMinai> Well, too bad than - he was cooked alive
[19:44:08] <Computer_barf> I can't remember where I first heard of those things. I think it was dirty jobs.
[19:44:16] <Computer_barf> I believe they mentioned this problem too
[19:44:49] <LeelooMinai> Accidentally cooking workers? :)
[19:45:04] <Computer_barf> that you have to be careful and not let the door shut on you
[19:45:09] <Computer_barf> or else you'll get cooked
[19:45:26] <Computer_barf> 200 degree steam is injected
[19:45:44] <furrywolf> lockouts!
[19:45:52] <Computer_barf> you would probably pass out pretty quick
[19:46:29] <Computer_barf> maybe they could impliment some sort of rfid solution
[19:46:56] <Computer_barf> some high pressure resistent reader inside, that if detected wouldn't allow the machine to turn on
[19:47:13] <Computer_barf> but then again, back to workers being incompetent and not wearing their badges
[19:47:17] <LeelooMinai> Yes, and if your tag does not work, bye bye:)
[19:47:26] <jdh> someone woudl override it for testing
[19:47:39] <furrywolf> lockouts work well. before entering, put your padlock on something that prevents its operation, such as a power disconnect, steam valve, door mechanism, etc.
[19:47:54] <furrywolf> the problem isn't the technology. the problem is failure to properly follow safety procedures.
[19:47:56] <LeelooMinai> But one can forget doing that
[19:48:15] <furrywolf> you can only forget it once, because at a responsible company, you'll be promptly fired.
[19:48:16] <Computer_barf> here's the thing.. If you worked with these machines you would think you would be super paranoid about keeping someone aware your inside
[19:48:24] <jdh> nobody forgets, they just don't do it.
[19:48:25] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Or cooked
[19:48:43] <furrywolf> lockouts are not considered optional at a responsible company. if you fail to lock/tag equipment out, or tamper with someone else's locks, you're fired.
[19:48:44] <Computer_barf> i wonder if they keep cameras on it
[19:48:57] <Computer_barf> you could do a system that counts bodies
[19:49:10] <Computer_barf> lol i don't mean cooked bodies
[19:49:11] <furrywolf> now, at irresponsible companies, management will try to prevent the use of lockouts, as they take more time and add more hassle.
[19:49:43] <Computer_barf> what is that visual library
[19:50:00] <Computer_barf> for computer vision programming
[19:50:17] <Computer_barf> i think that might be a good solution , something that counts people going in and out
[19:50:30] <furrywolf> locking out/tagging out takes time, and creates hassle, such as someone going home for the day with a piece of equipment still locked. even if they know you went home, they're still not allowed to remove your lock without a major procedure. bad management therefor tries to prevent the use of safety procedures.
[19:50:34] <Computer_barf> you could just require a bright color jumpsuit
[19:50:55] <LeelooMinai> Computer_barf: Doesn't really sound like cheap/easy foolproof solution...
[19:51:31] <Computer_barf> hell I think the employer should just be allowed to have some sort of contractual protection
[19:51:46] <Computer_barf> you take the job you agree to accept the liability
[19:52:00] <malcom2073> Can't sign away your right to life
[19:52:05] <Computer_barf> and if people don't take the jobs, then they can impliment a system people are willing to contract for
[19:52:16] <furrywolf> I think employers who try to prevent proper safety procedures should be painfully injured, preferably by the equipment they manage.
[19:52:27] <Computer_barf> life as a right is failure to understand what a right is
[19:52:27] <malcom2073> +1
[19:52:40] <malcom2073> Safety, properly implemented, takes so little time compared to the time lost when injury happens
[19:52:58] <LeelooMinai> How about there is one key to the thing and if you open it, well, you are the only one that can close it
[19:53:29] <LeelooMinai> That would be pretty simple and foolproof
[19:53:41] <furrywolf> I also note the involved workers have mexican names, which then gets into the whole immigration status stuff... I know at least two local companies have been investigated for telling immigrants they'll be deported if they follow the law.
[19:54:13] <Computer_barf> too many people use the term right in a sense that isn't classically valid. their's no such thing as right to work, right to life, right to healthcare, right to housing
[19:54:36] <Computer_barf> it has to be something that is innate to you as a human
[19:54:43] <furrywolf> a truck company was making them work >20 hours/day under threat of deportation, and a chinese restaurant was paying $1.50/hour.
[19:55:00] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: A right as in something that is enforcable in a court of law. Life counts
[19:55:38] <Computer_barf> meh, courts don't define rights. You can't grant something you don't have.
[19:56:22] <LeelooMinai> Sure they can - societal rights
[19:56:25] <malcom2073> Semantics, we're talking about different rights.
[19:56:36] <theorbtwo> Somewhat random (and on-topic, hey!) question for you guys: I'm pondering making a little PCB mill/drill thing. I know my way around the reprap ecosystem pretty well, but not much about serious machining. Is linuxcnc a good place to start?
[19:56:38] <Computer_barf> your confusing privileges with rights. No constitution grants rights, it recognizes them
[19:56:58] <malcom2073> Semantic arguments are the ammunition of the weak, don't play that game
[19:56:59] <malcom2073> :P
[19:57:03] <Computer_barf> it is semantical, in that the word has a meaning, you've lost sight of its meaning.
[19:57:11] <LeelooMinai> "you have the privilage to remain silent"... lol
[19:59:02] <theorbtwo> There's different sorts of semantic arguments. This is the boring kind, where the two parties simply disagree about what the meaning of a word is, and know it.
[19:59:18] <malcom2073> Anyway, in my country, our constitution recognizes the right to life, so to me, it's a right.
[19:59:20] <Computer_barf> right to remain silent is yes, an inumerated right, it was recognized as being innate. It's not just something that is made up like "human rights", which hinge on a living document overseen by the united nations.
[20:00:06] <Computer_barf> these are important distinctions as otherwise your rights are hinged on the whims of the current ruling class. Rights are derived from natural rights.
[20:00:20] <theorbtwo> It was most certianly made up, and the constitution of the united states is a living document too.
[20:00:38] <LeelooMinai> And then you have to define "natural"
[20:00:51] <malcom2073> natural rights are, like the rights written into a constitution, subject to human interpretation
[20:01:20] <LeelooMinai> What for one person is natural may be very innatural for another
[20:01:26] <Computer_barf> its not a living document as much of the neo-liberals regard it, thats why constitutional conventions exist
[20:01:54] <Computer_barf> people want to alter long standing amendments as if they are fluid like that , which wasn't the original intent
[20:02:08] <Computer_barf> there is a format for doing it though
[20:02:10] <malcom2073> That has nothing to do with rights though
[20:02:34] <furrywolf> clientId : "q3r9p989687p496no2s92p9r84s779qp",
[20:02:35] <furrywolf> clientSecret : "789r9n607poo4s9no6998771s969o630",
[20:02:48] <furrywolf> am I the only one who thinks things named "secret" shouldn't be hard-coded in source? lol
[20:02:54] <malcom2073> lol nonsense
[20:03:04] <malcom2073> it's transfered to github over ssh, it's safe
[20:03:31] <theorbtwo> Computer_barf: Oh, I quite agree that you shouldn't ignore what the consitution says. I really do hate it when people, of any political flavour, try to do that. The US constitution has an amendment process.
[20:04:25] <Computer_barf> yeah much of what I've been saying is a reflection of the minarchist perspective of the united states constitution , I don't personally hold this view anymore but if you believe in government, you should play by its actual rules
[20:06:32] <Computer_barf> I personally view constitutions as permission slips gangs grant to themselves powers they never had individually , it's a scam.
[20:07:13] <Computer_barf> but at the time the us constitution was adopted , natural rights were widely perceived as the the basis for the bill of rights
[20:09:01] <Computer_barf> its just silly to reinterpret, the content should be based on its historical context. This whole game where government endlessly expand their powers beyond what is explicitly innumerated is bullshit that will only end in tears.
[20:10:02] <Computer_barf> aside malcon2073's conception of all that is needed for a a desire to be met is for it to be defined as a right defies what economics has known for well over a thousand years. It's not a matter of what you want.
[20:10:47] * furrywolf waits for Computer_barf to come up with a solution instead of a description of the problem, and meanwhile goes back to reading about spotify apis
[20:10:53] <malcom2073> Heh
[20:11:11] <malcom2073> Well, I'm happy, people around me are happy, so my rights seem to be working pretty good for me
[20:11:13] * LeelooMinai went back to designing a pcb 5 minutes ago
[20:11:13] <malcom2073> :P
[20:11:34] <malcom2073> The fact that you don't recognize them as rights inconveniences only you
[20:12:18] <furrywolf> lol! about the clientsecret above... the docs say "Always store the client secret key securely; never reveal it publicly! If you suspect that the secret key has been compromised, regenerate it immediately by clicking the link on the application details page."
[20:12:25] <malcom2073> lol
[20:12:31] * furrywolf suspects including it in the source code counts as revealing it publicly
[20:12:33] <malcom2073> Hopefully they regenerated it!
[20:12:35] <Computer_barf> furrywolf: such solutions are only ever the result of capital exchange, even when the government is used to coerce others into providing them for you.
[20:14:21] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: something working is not the measure of what is moral. I can murder my neighbor and take his money , and that works. That does not mean force is an innately legitimate basis for society to operate on.
[20:15:26] <Computer_barf> when a government starts defining rights that don't innately belong to people , it becomes necessary that in order for a government to give to one, they must first take from another.
[20:15:54] <Computer_barf> so say you make it a right that everyone gets a car
[20:16:01] <Computer_barf> where does the car come from?
[20:16:04] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Legitimacy of actions is an entirely different discussion, since morals and values are extremely dependant on the person
[20:16:48] <Computer_barf> I just like philosophical consistency
[20:17:00] <Computer_barf> i think if its wrong for me to rob my neighbor
[20:17:02] <malcom2073> There's nothing consistant about philosophy
[20:17:10] <Computer_barf> it should also be wrong for government to do the same under diffrent names
[20:17:28] <malcom2073> Ah, this is a thinly veiled attack against the government?
[20:17:29] <malcom2073> I miss that
[20:17:31] <malcom2073> missed*
[20:17:40] <malcom2073> I thought we were talking about rights
[20:17:53] <Computer_barf> I think i make my positions pretty explicit
[20:18:18] <furrywolf> I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to say, so... maybe you think it was explicit...
[20:18:18] <Computer_barf> yes i mentioned that what I had previously said was under the lexicon of minarchism ,which i don't personally believe in anymoe
[20:18:24] <LeelooMinai> I knew it would end like that long time ago:)
[20:18:26] <malcom2073> Your position on government actions in relation to theft, has little to do with my belief that life is a right, which afaik is what this conversation is about?
[20:19:09] <Computer_barf> I just had said that if you believe in government, you should at least expect it to follow it's own rules
[20:19:32] <Computer_barf> I realize this gets complex when we are discussing multiple territories
[20:20:20] <Computer_barf> but our original discussion on rights i was speaking from a minarchist constitutional, united states perspective
[20:20:23] <malcom2073> I never claimed to "believe in government", but to group the entire administration structure (of hundreds of thousands of people) together, you're bound to find something you don't like.
[20:20:48] <malcom2073> I believe that I have a right to life, and that the government will protect that right.
[20:21:23] <Computer_barf> don't you recognise that what the government is capable of doing is limited by what it can actually control?
[20:21:37] <Computer_barf> i mean if you set out a rule that must be upheld by the government
[20:21:45] <Computer_barf> thats limited by what is actually economically possible
[20:22:02] <Computer_barf> not to mention that open ended economic demands like that are risky
[20:22:13] <malcom2073> Well of course. If the economy of the government collapses, they'll be in no position to protect anyones rights
[20:22:20] <Computer_barf> i mean what if the government needs to spend all of everyones money to make sure that one person does not die
[20:22:43] <Computer_barf> I just see people using this rights trope
[20:23:01] <Computer_barf> as if proclaiming a right makes the government capable of anything
[20:23:02] <malcom2073> The government doesn't spend everyones money, it spends its own money, which people pay to it to live here. Important distinction. The money is the governments to do with what it wants (which people majority voted for mind you)
[20:23:30] <malcom2073> proclaiming a right displays the intention of the government to do things.
[20:23:33] <Computer_barf> which isn't really true , its not really possible. They are always limited by the funds they can siphon off from their population.
[20:23:58] <malcom2073> True, but unless you know of a case where the government refused to prosecute someone for killing someone else due to a lack of funds?
[20:24:23] <Computer_barf> sure
[20:24:27] <Computer_barf> yes absolutely
[20:24:54] <Computer_barf> prosecutors charge by discretion in governments all over the world
[20:25:10] <malcom2073> Tin foil hat, not what I asked
[20:25:23] <Computer_barf> tin foil hat is not an argument
[20:25:40] <Computer_barf> think about early release
[20:26:10] <Computer_barf> or when a crime is so prevalent that the government doesn't bring charges for practicality reasons
[20:26:36] <malcom2073> I'm talking about the right to life
[20:26:40] <malcom2073> so, murder
[20:26:45] <malcom2073> not manslaughter, murder
[20:26:51] <malcom2073> It's not black and white
[20:27:11] <Computer_barf> yes but assigning a right by desire rather than its innateness is what I pointed out
[20:27:18] <Computer_barf> you've decided on life
[20:27:34] <Computer_barf> but someone else could decide that they have a right to a million dollars
[20:27:47] <Computer_barf> think about how that would go apon implimentation
[20:27:54] <malcom2073> I've not decided on life, the government has decided on life
[20:28:01] <malcom2073> if the government decides on a million dollars, then we'll talk :P
[20:28:35] <Computer_barf> lol im just trying to illustrate the problematic nature of defining rights as something you want rather than a property of the nature of humans
[20:28:59] <Computer_barf> i mean technically we could argue that there is no such thing as rights at all
[20:29:27] <malcom2073> You're illustrating it by providing examples that make no sense. Provide an example of something I consider a right, that is not governmentally enforced.
[20:29:39] <malcom2073> Hint: No such thing, because I wouldn't consider it a right
[20:30:19] <Computer_barf> im giving the example not to criticise things as they are , im doing it to exemplify the problem of granting things you don't possess
[20:30:54] <Computer_barf> do you personally possess immortality or immutable force to prevent death?
[20:31:02] <malcom2073> I never said the constitution granted rights
[20:31:17] <Computer_barf> then how would the government , being made up of individuals, hold such a right?
[20:31:24] * Tom_itx wonders wtf channel he is in...
[20:31:28] <Computer_barf> lol
[20:31:31] <Computer_barf> hahah
[20:31:37] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: They enforce it, they don't grant it
[20:31:50] <malcom2073> They ensure it exists
[20:31:53] <Computer_barf> yes I realise we're way off topic and anyone would "have the right" to tell us to stfu
[20:31:58] <malcom2073> lol
[20:32:18] <Computer_barf> i believe the stfu clause would be an extension of property rights
[20:33:05] <furrywolf> and where do property rights come from?
[20:33:15] <malcom2073> The laws that enforce them :-P
[20:33:16] <furrywolf> why do you have any right to any property of any kind, ever?
[20:33:34] <Computer_barf> i believe that property rights are derived from nature
[20:33:36] <Tom_itx> you are merely visitors passing thru
[20:33:39] <furrywolf> lol
[20:33:42] <Computer_barf> that they are innate to us
[20:33:43] <malcom2073> Lol
[20:33:55] <Computer_barf> even animals practice property rights to an extent
[20:33:57] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Who's property, your property?
[20:34:21] <malcom2073> How much property are you innately garunteed?
[20:34:24] <Computer_barf> well your persuing a line of questioning I've already conceded
[20:34:54] <Computer_barf> I pointed out that im not personally an adherent to the minarchist perspective
[20:35:02] <Computer_barf> I am a propertarian though
[20:35:17] <Computer_barf> and I admit my affinity to it is purely deontological
[20:35:25] <Jymmm> Is that like being jewish or something?
[20:35:29] <Tom_itx> if i purchase a home and it is paid in full why do i still pay property tax on it if i own it?
[20:35:32] <Computer_barf> I possess no logical proof of rights
[20:35:40] <Tom_itx> who really own's anything...
[20:35:41] <Computer_barf> im just saying if someone is going to declair life a right
[20:35:44] <malcom2073> And a sesquipedalian a that
[20:35:49] <malcom2073> :P
[20:35:54] <Computer_barf> then you should at least play by the rules
[20:35:58] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: read your deed
[20:36:03] <Tom_itx> naw
[20:36:04] <malcom2073> you don't "own" the property perse
[20:36:13] <Computer_barf> i think rights in those contexts are bastardisations of history, but that's also because im in the us
[20:36:33] <Jymmm> See also: eminent domain
[20:36:51] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Yep
[20:37:03] <malcom2073> Anyone who purchases property, then gets angry when they lose it to that, are idiots.
[20:37:08] <Computer_barf> eminent domain would be a pretty good example of the harms of reinterpretatoin
[20:37:50] <Computer_barf> i mean idk about you but most of my government hinges on powers it reinterpreted into existence.
[20:37:59] <Jymmm> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/eminent-domain-being-abused/
[20:38:17] <malcom2073> Yes, it, like any law, object, person, organization, etc, has been abused.
[20:38:23] <malcom2073> There's not a thing in the world that hasn't been abused
[20:38:34] <Computer_barf> in the us there are juristdictions that use eminent domain to seize property based on economic productivity
[20:38:50] <Computer_barf> as in taking a business to give to another business
[20:39:11] <Computer_barf> on the basis of oh this company will use this land better
[20:39:24] <Computer_barf> that to me seems pretty far off from needing to build a bridge
[20:39:47] <Computer_barf> damn all this talking and my kernel is still building
[20:40:04] <malcom2073> lol
[20:40:08] <malcom2073> Get a faster PC :P
[20:40:14] <malcom2073> I have the right to a fast compile!
[20:40:20] <Computer_barf> lol
[20:40:37] <Computer_barf> right to internet!
[20:41:33] <Computer_barf> that's the thing about assigning rights to desires , ask yourself if someone in the 1700's would think the idea is absurd
[20:41:58] <Computer_barf> people might have been displeased with their conditions but no one protested poverty because they knew it was absurd
[20:42:04] <Jymmm> Computer_barf: There was homesteading in the 1700's
[20:42:16] <Computer_barf> you could pass the entire regulatory body and that wouldn't mean air conditioners would magically appear
[20:43:01] <Computer_barf> Jymm: are you bringing that because you believe Im committed to lockean homesteading?
[20:43:51] <Computer_barf> i mean that would possibly be perceptive of you, although im not committed to such a model, but regardless technology is at where it is at.
[20:45:12] <Computer_barf> homesteading as a basis for property rights makes more sense to me relative to the government blocking off vast swaths of land and ocean.
[20:45:55] <Computer_barf> but im not committed to that as an idea of the origin of property rights. I do like some of the principles.
[20:46:11] <Computer_barf> such as earliest claim
[20:48:01] <Computer_barf> hmmmm
[20:48:14] <Computer_barf> I think JT-Shop is suck in some sort of loop
[20:50:30] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: still compiling , i got a group of people together, we all signed a document and made some rules, we got people together and voted on it, and you weren't there, none the less we've taken over a geographical territory
[20:50:43] <malcom2073> Cool, good for you.
[20:51:06] <Computer_barf> we've declaired a monopoly on the use of force in this territory, and wrote some legislation
[20:51:13] <Computer_barf> it says we own your computing cycles
[20:51:22] <malcom2073> Cool. Now enforce it.
[20:51:29] <Computer_barf> so we'll be sending some thugs to go get it
[20:51:48] <malcom2073> K, they will, of course, have to abide by the laws of my government, or face prosecution
[20:51:49] <Tom_itx> baltimore thugs?
[20:51:55] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: I'm like... 40 miles from there
[20:51:57] <malcom2073> :P
[20:51:59] <malcom2073> So could be
[20:52:15] <malcom2073> Or in the case of b-more thugs, face "room to be violent"
[20:52:17] <Computer_barf> wouldn't be the first time states have overlapped
[20:52:51] <Computer_barf> oh im not on the side of baltimore thugs
[20:53:03] <Computer_barf> I view that as pretty sadly misplaced
[20:53:36] <Computer_barf> doesn't help that the media only frenzies over certain types of police violence
[20:54:00] <malcom2073> Violence is money to the media
[20:54:18] <Computer_barf> not all kinds
[20:54:56] <malcom2073> The kind that incites more violence
[20:55:07] <Computer_barf> some is inconvenient to the medias relationship with the establishment
[20:55:39] <Computer_barf> he was black? lets talk about it for days!
[20:55:56] <Computer_barf> just regular police abuse? meh.
[20:56:28] <malcom2073> The media has found a money button, and will keep pressing it until it breaks
[20:56:59] <PetefromTn_> smash that thing hehe
[20:57:30] <malcom2073> Woot! Got my unit tests working!
[20:57:34] <malcom2073> What a nightmare that was
[20:57:48] <Computer_barf> well , the more they break it , the more the police will get federalized
[20:58:13] <malcom2073> Wasn't it a james bond movie, where the media mogul tried to start a war for ratings?
[20:58:34] <Computer_barf> government funding is predicated on perpetually broken things as justification for more funding.
[20:58:53] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: I believe you are referring to the iraq war
[20:59:39] <Computer_barf> man i had no idea how long making the kernel could take
[20:59:53] <malcom2073> What are you compiling it on? Normally takes me 10-15 minutes
[21:00:23] <Computer_barf> asrock q1900
[21:00:37] <Tom_itx> you like that MB?
[21:00:46] <Computer_barf> well idk
[21:01:06] <Computer_barf> i mean im still compiling my kernel for just now setting up linuxcnc
[21:01:11] <Computer_barf> so i can't really comment on it
[21:01:12] <malcom2073> Oh celeron, yeah
[21:01:14] <malcom2073> that'll do it
[21:01:30] <malcom2073> You doing make -j4 or higher?
[21:01:33] <malcom2073> Or just make?
[21:01:51] <Computer_barf> someone else with a mesa ethernet card recommended it so i went with it
[21:01:57] <Tom_itx> what's -j4 do?
[21:01:58] <Computer_barf> just make
[21:02:03] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Parallel building
[21:02:11] <Computer_barf> ahh yeah that would have been wise
[21:02:14] <malcom2073> Yeah
[21:02:21] <Computer_barf> ill live
[21:02:30] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Make can build things that aren't dependant on each other in parallel with the -j flag, speeds things up amazingly
[21:02:36] <Computer_barf> its not like i went off on a half hour political rant
[21:02:39] <malcom2073> lol
[21:02:45] <Tom_itx> so just add that to the make line??
[21:02:47] <malcom2073> Yeah, at least THAT didn't happen :)
[21:02:49] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Yeah
[21:02:52] <Tom_itx> make xxx -j4?
[21:02:56] <Computer_barf> i gotta say you guys tolerated it like champs
[21:02:58] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: make MyMakefile -j4
[21:03:03] <Tom_itx> huh
[21:03:07] <malcom2073> 4 means 4 parallel threads. I do 10, since I have 8 threads
[21:03:08] <Tom_itx> i'll have to remember that
[21:03:18] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Be aware, it *CAN* screw things up in some projects/situations
[21:03:30] <malcom2073> So, if you encounter a failure, clean, and rebuild with less, or no parallels
[21:03:46] <Computer_barf> sure I could go to a political room but sometimes its more fun to see how other people respond
[21:03:50] <Tom_itx> so on a dual core you could -j2?
[21:04:12] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Dual core non hyperthread 2 or 3, I've always *heard* you should do 50% more than the threads you have available, bu never did any real tests
[21:04:22] <Computer_barf> does this command apply to other applications or just make
[21:04:40] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: make, others may implement such things, but this isa make thing
[21:04:50] <malcom2073> jom (make for MSVC in windows) also has it.
[21:05:20] <Tom_itx> well if either of these Q1900 ever make it to linux i'll remember that
[21:06:24] <Computer_barf> JT-Shop: stop that
[21:07:46] <Tom_itx> he's on limited bandwidth until month end
[21:07:58] <malcom2073> Maybe he shouldn't leave IRC on then?
[21:08:06] <Tom_itx> could be
[21:08:07] <malcom2073> connecting/disconnecting uses a couple K each time for the MOTD/etc
[21:08:14] <Tom_itx> i'm sure he's asleep by now
[21:08:19] <malcom2073> yeah
[21:11:13] <Computer_barf> i wonder if there is a temporary ignore command
[21:12:15] <malcom2073> You can disable join/parts on your client
[21:12:23] <malcom2073> if you have a nice client, it'll let you ignore just him and stop that too
[21:12:53] <Computer_barf> yeah i just don't want to forget later
[21:13:04] <Computer_barf> and have permanently blocked some poor random
[21:13:05] <Computer_barf> lol
[21:13:31] <Computer_barf> unlikely i would need to talk to him, i don't know him, but there is that small worry that he might have the keys to the kingdom
[21:13:48] <malcom2073> lol
[21:13:55] <Tom_itx> if you are into linuxcnc you will likely want to talk to him eventually
[21:14:05] <Computer_barf> see
[21:14:08] <Computer_barf> instinct validated
[21:14:14] <Computer_barf> he is the keymaster
[21:14:22] <Computer_barf> i was being tested
[21:14:37] <Tom_itx> go study for your driving test
[21:15:46] <Computer_barf> i would say something snarky about the goverment and permission to move around but that would just be too in character
[21:16:07] <malcom2073> lol
[21:16:50] <Computer_barf> someone should post another link like the tuna thing
[21:17:17] <Tom_itx> or we could stray back on topic
[21:17:26] <Tom_itx> and discuss something relevant
[21:17:34] <Computer_barf> oh hell no im gonna talk about my gardinia tree
[21:17:38] <Computer_barf> its in bloom
[21:17:50] <Computer_barf> it smells like a thousand high class hookers in here.
[21:18:05] <malcom2073> I need to clean my mill
[21:20:13] <Computer_barf> how did it get dirty
[21:20:24] <malcom2073> It was apparently left outside for a year or so
[21:20:31] <Computer_barf> oh damn
[21:20:38] <Computer_barf> i wouldn't advise that
[21:20:41] <malcom2073> I did evaporust on it, it took a LOT of the rust off, need to do it again
[21:20:59] <Computer_barf> i thought you had chips on it or something
[21:21:01] <malcom2073> haha
[21:21:02] <malcom2073> nooo
[21:21:21] <Computer_barf> i was interested if you were making something cool
[21:21:26] <malcom2073> I've not cut yet, clean rust, clean outside, clean flood coolant system (that's gonna not be fun), then buy mesaboard and get the thing running
[21:22:04] <Computer_barf> oh get the 7i76 so if I can't figure it out,
[21:22:19] <Computer_barf> then you'll be able to tell me what i did wrong
[21:22:27] <malcom2073> Getting a 7i77 :)
[21:22:30] <Computer_barf> it's my right!
[21:22:33] <malcom2073> My dad has a 7i76 he wants me to set up
[21:22:36] <malcom2073> lol
[21:24:04] <Computer_barf> i found a file on the forums that PCW posted
[21:24:08] <Computer_barf> a .ini
[21:24:19] <malcom2073> Seems legit
[21:24:24] <Computer_barf> for the 7i76e
[21:24:37] <Computer_barf> ive no idea what will be sufficient to get it working
[21:24:52] <malcom2073> I should read into that stuff sometime :/
[21:25:04] <malcom2073> Not looking forward to that, I've done some digging into HAL before, it's unfun
[21:25:29] <Computer_barf> i do know that linuxcnc won't start and is throwing errors about some modules that needed rt-prempt
[21:25:48] <malcom2073> Out of curiosity, why are you recompiling instead of using a pre-made image?
[21:26:14] <Computer_barf> well i thought it was just a matter of adding the sources for buildbot
[21:26:26] <Computer_barf> and following the commands on that page
[21:26:36] <Computer_barf> but this appears to not be so
[21:26:43] <malcom2073> hmm
[21:27:16] <Computer_barf> and since ive done other stuff since installing onto a copy of wheezy from the site...
[21:27:23] <Computer_barf> it would seem that this is the easier path
[21:27:43] <Computer_barf> and i suppose a very up to date kernel wouldn't hurt
[21:31:14] <PCW> well the current (3.18.11-rt7) Preemt-RT kernel seems to run on most everything so it got that going for it
[21:31:16] <PCW> (plus its RT performance is better than the stock 3.2.something)
[21:31:25] <PCW> bbl dinner
[21:59:32] <norias> hello
[22:01:12] <PetefromTn_> hello
[22:03:38] <norias> how goes, Pete?
[22:03:53] <PetefromTn_> meh not bad
[22:03:55] <PetefromTn_> you?
[22:05:47] <norias> a little sleepy
[22:05:49] <norias> overall
[22:05:51] <norias> decent
[22:10:17] <PetefromTn_> Just finished working on a prototype for a customer. Got four different parts of a complete program made up and now I am Stitching it together into a complete final program. Hopefully it will be perfect tomorrow and I can start making them for the customer.
[23:03:57] <norias> oops
[23:04:02] <norias> sorry, wandered away
[23:30:38] <harold> hi
[23:31:06] <harold> you guys have probably seen
[23:31:12] <harold> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knuz38oT2kc ? -- 'hypermill'
[23:31:21] <harold> a 5-axis milling machine
[23:31:28] * furrywolf doesn't tend to use youtube, and thus hasn't seen many things on it
[23:32:08] <harold> well anyway, my question is: for something in United States, what's the best cnc milling machine available that costs around $20K USD?
[23:32:16] <harold> s/something/someone
[23:32:35] <zeeshan> new?|
[23:32:59] <harold> uhmmm, isn't getting a non-new cnc milling machine a complicated process?
[23:33:03] <harold> where would you get it from? ebay?
[23:33:31] <harold> but I think yes, new is better (it's for work, getting a non-new machine will be a confusing process for me )
[23:33:50] <furrywolf> ebay, craigslist, local equipment auctions, used equipment dealers,...
[23:33:59] <harold> alright
[23:34:15] <zeeshan> 20k isn't enough for a real cnc machine
[23:34:21] <zeeshan> if youre looking for a hobby type
[23:34:22] <harold> btw when I said "best cnc milling machine" what did you guys think?
[23:34:22] <zeeshan> tormach
[23:34:30] <harold> a 5-axis milling machine?
[23:34:39] <zeeshan> not 5 axis...
[23:34:49] <harold> why not?
[23:35:05] <furrywolf> since best is highly application and user dependent, we thought "a useless question with no answer".
[23:35:40] <harold> not useless, juist misguinded and uninformed!
[23:35:43] <harold> hey im new at this okay!
[23:36:18] <harold> anyway - it seems that hypermill goes for around $26,000
[23:36:31] <harold> and... well, it seems to produce top notch results
[23:36:34] <harold> what do you guys think of it?
[23:36:37] <zeeshan> LOL
[23:37:00] <harold> wat
[23:37:26] <harold> are you LOL'ing at me?
[23:37:35] <zeeshan> im loling at you thinking
[23:37:41] <zeeshan> the dmu60p by deckel
[23:37:47] <zeeshan> (the machine in that video) costing 20k
[23:37:50] <zeeshan> er 26k
[23:37:57] <furrywolf> how big of parts do you need to make? do you need 3, 4, or 5 axis? what kind of control system do you want? are you making big flat things better done with a cnc router, plasma, or laser table? what kind of tooling do you plan on using? do you need a tool changer? pallets?
[23:38:11] <zeeshan> hypermill is a CAM software
[23:38:13] <zeeshan> not a cnc machine.
[23:38:18] <furrywolf> are you budgeting in the cost of tooling, which can easily run many thousands?
[23:39:15] <norias> hypermill?
[23:39:44] <norias> oh, right, CAM
[23:39:57] <norias> deckel makes some serious machines
[23:40:41] <zeeshan> http://www.machmarket.com/en/millers/OTHER/DECKEL-MAHO/AS3808/29
[23:40:49] <zeeshan> notice the cost for the used version of that machine in that video
[23:40:53] <zeeshan> about 350000 usd
[23:41:06] <harold> furrywolf: the parts i want to make almost never exceed 15x15x15"; I think I need a 5 axis; I don't know what kind of control system I want; the things I'm making are often not flat -- here's a screenshot of my solidworks dir -- these parts are all parts i printed with a 3dprinter, i will be printing similar things:
http://i.gyazo.com/f2b84dc433bcccdf90a215b7ea7c7f6f.png
[23:41:21] <norias> hmm
[23:41:31] <norias> why... do you think you need 5 axis?
[23:41:57] <zeeshan> i havent seen a 5axis
[23:42:00] <zeeshan> less than 200k
[23:42:00] <zeeshan> new
[23:42:03] <norias> i'm definitely not seeing 5 axis here
[23:42:08] <norias> not these parts
[23:42:14] <furrywolf> 15x15x15 puts you larger than most hobby machines. 5 axis is expensive. most expensive machines come with proprietary control systems and additional costs. a used machine with an outdated control system, converted to linuxcnc, is much cheaper.
[23:42:19] <zeeshan> norias i see 5 axis for the "tony big box thing small.sldprt"
[23:42:23] <zeeshan> you could make that part in 1 setup
[23:42:31] <zeeshan> would be nice to have
[23:42:42] <norias> sure
[23:42:47] <norias> but you can do it 3 axis
[23:43:16] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/yjWp29D.jpg
[23:43:23] <zeeshan> i got an interesting pattern today with my film testing
[23:43:46] <norias> harold, i don't think you need a 5 axis
[23:43:56] <norias> 20k is going to be hard to hit for a new machine
[23:44:08] <norias> i usually budget machine cost x2
[23:44:10] <harold> norias: oh, btw the main reason we're interested in getting away from 3dprinting is: we want to be able to print stuff other than pla/albs -- aluminum is what we want; and most importantly: we want higher resolution parts
[23:44:14] <norias> for machine, tooling, install
[23:44:31] <furrywolf> harold: I think you're greatly underestimating the cost of a machine with the features you're thinking of.
[23:44:36] <norias> how many machinists do you have, harold?
[23:44:37] <harold> norias: hmm, okay. I recall reading somewhat that the hypermill I linked to was $26,000. you say it's 200k?
[23:44:42] * zeeshan is offendend at machining being called printing
[23:44:43] <zeeshan> :[
[23:44:50] <norias> hypermill is software
[23:45:01] <norias> that you use to program the machine
[23:45:10] <harold> zeeshan: i never called machining printing. I said we want to move away from printing for reasons i cited
[23:45:11] <norias> the machine you showed us is made by deckel
[23:45:17] <harold> norias: ahhhh
[23:45:22] <norias> and they usually do run in the 200K + realm
[23:45:29] <harold> norias: god that's a phenomenol mistake isn't it
[23:45:38] <norias> happens, man, no sweat
[23:45:43] <zeeshan> you can find a 5 axis used for around 80000
[23:45:45] <zeeshan> to 90000
[23:45:46] <harold> norias: so the damn software itself costs $20K huh, jesus
[23:45:50] <norias> yeah
[23:45:58] <norias> you can do with less
[23:46:09] <norias> you need $20k software to run $200k machines
[23:46:18] <norias> you can get less expensive software
[23:46:22] <norias> for less expensive machines
[23:46:32] <norias> but still what you are proposing could get expensive
[23:46:44] <harold> norias: have you heard of these new things on the block -- the carbide3d, the shapeoko, etc.?
[23:46:55] <harold> which cost only $3K and such?
[23:46:59] <norias> yeah
[23:47:05] <harold> what are your thoughts onthat?
[23:47:15] <norias> cool for really small parts, i guess
[23:47:20] <norias> maybe some aluminum
[23:47:38] <norias> i'd say convenient for a bunch of engineers to get something better than 3d printing
[23:47:41] <norias> if you work at it
[23:48:07] <norias> may i ask why you don't want to 3d print
[23:48:09] <norias> to check design
[23:48:17] <norias> then get a prototype made at a machine shop?
[23:48:25] <norias> is it time, or money?
[23:48:54] <zeeshan> http://carbide3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/qualityandcraftsmanship_LQ.jpg
[23:48:56] <harold> we don't want to 3d print, because
[23:49:02] <zeeshan> you really think this machine is going to cut aluminum norias? :d
[23:49:18] <norias> i think it will cut aluminum
[23:49:19] <norias> slowly
[23:49:33] <harold> our 3dprinter (the ultimaker 2) isn't giving us high enough resolution parts. secondly, we often find ourselves wanting stronger material -- like aluminum, instead of plasticy things like abs and pla
[23:49:40] <norias> i'm not certain it will achieve excellent tolerances
[23:49:41] <zeeshan> its held up by 2 c channel
[23:49:42] <zeeshan> !
[23:49:50] <norias> hah
[23:50:06] <norias> harold: why not send it to a machine shop?
[23:50:14] <harold> norias: we actually did,
[23:50:18] <norias> what happened?
[23:50:27] <harold> norias: they made beautiful parts
[23:50:31] <norias> great!
[23:50:53] <harold> norias: but it cost us 2 weeks. we're a research lab, we want the part tomorrow if not tonight
[23:51:02] <norias> ok, that's fair
[23:51:14] <norias> i used to run a machine shop that did parts for a research lab
[23:51:18] <norias> i understand your concern
[23:51:25] <norias> so, time is the problem
[23:51:33] <zeeshan> research labs outsource their parts manufacturing? :p
[23:51:46] <norias> research labs need all sorts of little bits made
[23:51:49] <norias> for their labs
[23:51:57] <norias> special fixtures, etc
[23:51:57] <zeeshan> i wish my lab would outsource shit
[23:52:05] <zeeshan> so i wouldnt have to machine all this stuff :/
[23:52:19] <norias> lol
[23:52:27] <harold> and money. before we were 3dprinting parts, we used to get parts printed at makerbot. for 7 hours worth of printing time they charged us like 300 dollars. we print things all the time on our printer, and it costs us pennies usually (literally)
[23:52:29] <zeeshan> they must be trolling me
[23:52:30] <zeeshan> :{
[23:52:54] <furrywolf> I wish I could work in a research lab.
[23:53:06] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you will need edumucation!
[23:53:22] <harold> you don't need edumucation to work in a research lab, you need 'contacts'
[23:53:24] <norias> harold... doing machining in house
[23:53:30] <harold> yes?
[23:53:30] <norias> won't save you much money
[23:53:32] <norias> honestly
[23:53:40] <zeeshan> harold depends on research lab
[23:53:41] <zeeshan> lol
[23:53:41] <norias> baseline, you probably need...
[23:53:47] <harold> that's ok, money-saving is a secondadry concern
[23:53:51] <norias> $20k Used Haas VF-2
[23:54:01] * harold googles
[23:54:02] <norias> you could look at the VF-1 also
[23:54:06] <zeeshan> unless youre a technician working there
[23:54:13] <norias> but then you also get about $20k worth of stuff
[23:54:16] <norias> to make it work
[23:54:20] <norias> someone has to crane it in
[23:54:20] <zeeshan> almost all these guys are phd
[23:54:29] <norias> it needs special power supply
[23:54:45] <norias> you need to learn cam
[23:54:52] <norias> and machining
[23:54:56] <norias> then run the parts
[23:55:02] <norias> unless you hire a machinist
[23:55:04] <zeeshan> norias machining is ez
[23:55:08] <zeeshan> so is cam
[23:55:09] <norias> budget $50k a year for that
[23:55:10] <zeeshan> you can learn it in 2 days
[23:55:24] <norias> :)
[23:55:31] <norias> true, zeeshan
[23:55:32] <furrywolf> zeeshan: eh, I find I learn at least as quickly actually doing things rather than being edumucated on things.
[23:55:37] <harold> I learned solidworks from scratch in about 4 months, I bet I can learn cam \o/. (but seriously: you'd agree that the skill required to be able to print a part is similar to program cam? I hope it is)
[23:55:57] <norias> i think it's about another ... 2 months?
[23:55:59] <furrywolf> no, cam is harder than printing.
[23:55:59] <zeeshan> harold are you master at solidworks now
[23:56:13] <norias> to put it in perspective
[23:56:17] <harold> zeeshan: I would say so! my boss sure is impressed with the parts I've been able to print
[23:56:17] <norias> people that do this for a living
[23:56:22] * zeeshan is in troll mode
[23:56:28] <norias> often go through a 4 year apprenticeship
[23:56:29] <zeeshan> harold when youre making boxes with holes in it
[23:56:33] <zeeshan> solidworks is pretty easy :p
[23:56:50] <norias> are you in the US, harold?
[23:57:08] <harold> zeeshan: the parts we intend to machien will not be remarkably harder than the parts we're already printing, so I don't need to be a master-master
[23:57:15] <harold> I'm in US, but I'm asian.
[23:57:21] <norias> ok, what state?
[23:57:24] <harold> MA
[23:57:29] <norias> oh, perfect.
[23:57:38] <harold> we're having a party?
[23:57:42] <zeeshan> furrywolf: fortunately or unfortunately, you need the paper to get in
[23:57:43] <harold> my house?
[23:57:44] <norias> I'm going to recommend against getting a machine
[23:57:51] <norias> it's a much much bigger investment
[23:57:54] <norias> both in money
[23:57:57] <norias> and learning curve
[23:58:01] <norias> than printing
[23:58:03] <harold> ok? great. this is like the time I went to #dlprinting and people dissuaed me from getting a makerbot
[23:58:21] <norias> makerbot is cool, sure
[23:58:25] <harold> no it isn't
[23:58:27] <norias> i'm saying, i've done this
[23:58:30] <zeeshan> harold i think you should buy the hypermill cnc machine
[23:58:32] <zeeshan> for 25000
[23:58:33] <harold> anyway go on
[23:58:35] <zeeshan> and start machining parts
[23:58:39] <norias> i've done 3d printing
[23:58:43] <norias> i'm a machining
[23:58:45] <harold> zeeshan: not without your help
[23:58:47] <norias> i'm a machinist
[23:58:49] <norias> blah
[23:59:01] <norias> let me help you find a good shop
[23:59:07] <norias> that will turn parts around in days
[23:59:08] <harold> norias: sure. no really don't mind me, I know I'm a newb. :)
[23:59:24] <norias> it's cool, man. this is what i do.
[23:59:35] <harold> are you in east coast?
[23:59:38] <norias> yes.
[23:59:50] <norias> I am on the east coast, and I have contacts with machine shops
[23:59:56] <norias> on both coasts, actually
