#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-03-30

[00:00:24] <renesis> did you ever verify your linked accounts and identify?
[00:00:36] <furrywolf> yes
[00:00:53] <renesis> yeah sounds weird
[00:01:04] <furrywolf> and I was an ebay powerseller
[00:01:26] <renesis> how much did you do a year
[00:01:45] <furrywolf> I called them on the phone a couple of times, and after absurd hold times, everyone flat-out said my account was never working again.
[00:01:56] <furrywolf> not too much. just barely got the bronze rating.
[00:02:32] <renesis> you have balls using ebay without paypal
[00:05:54] <furrywolf> you can google it if you want, apparantly they do it to people randomly... people without social security numbers they insist on a copy of their passports instead...
[00:08:58] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[02:03:33] <Deejay> moin
[02:05:30] <XXCoder1> yo
[02:07:55] <Cromaglious> aloha
[02:08:39] <Cromaglious> hmm gotta order some xh4p plugs
[02:12:43] <Cromaglious> hmm JCS-XH4S
[02:18:59] <XXCoder1> http://www.symscape.com/blog/cfd-analysis-of-a-blower-for-a-small-dust-collector
[02:19:03] <XXCoder1> pretty cool
[07:58:26] <Benjamin23> what is the difference between LinuxCNC and flatcam? Can LinuxCNC work with g-code?
[07:59:05] <archivist> linuxcnc uses gcode to control the paths it follows
[07:59:34] <archivist> flatcam by its name woule be generating paths in the gcode language
[07:59:51] <archivist> linuxcnc is the machine control
[08:01:33] <Benjamin23> what issues would I possibly run in using LinuxCNC and the RAMPS 1.4?
[08:02:19] <Benjamin23> I use RAMPS 1.4 with the 3D printer. I like it as it has command buffering to for real time operation
[08:03:43] <CaptHindsight> RAMPS doesn't run Linux
[08:03:51] <CaptHindsight> Linuxcnc runs on Linux
[08:04:59] <archivist> ramps has a completely broken website so cannot comment on crap
[08:05:41] <CaptHindsight> RAMPS is another *duino
[08:06:05] <archivist> I saw a flash of aaarrrrrghuino
[08:08:58] <CaptHindsight> http://flatcam.org/ FlatCAM: Free and Open-source PCB CAM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer-aided_manufacturing
[08:10:28] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat
[08:10:50] <CaptHindsight> Linuxcnc is open source machine control software that runs on Linux. CNC http://www.technologystudent.com/cam/cnccut1.html
[08:13:00] <CaptHindsight> RAMPS is a toy machine controller board deigned by kids that wanted to make sure that you'd need a PC and their board to operate your CNC glue gun
[08:15:12] <CaptHindsight> http://reprap.org/wiki/RAMPS_1.4
[08:16:25] <SpeedEvil> 'to make sure you'd need a PC' - you're on thin ice in this channel
[08:16:28] <CaptHindsight> http://ultimachine.com/ramps-pre-assembled-kit-complete $185.00
[08:17:28] <archivist> damned expensive for an aaaarrrrrghuino
[08:18:07] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dx.com/p/neje-300mw-mini-diy-laser-engraving-machine-picture-logo-cnc-laser-printer-transparent-379598
[08:18:14] <SpeedEvil> Not sure if I linked this before.
[08:18:58] <SpeedEvil> Note teh CDROM guts
[08:19:02] <Rab> Benjamin23, look into GRBL. There's a port for RAMPS 1.4: http://grblforramps14.sourceforge.net/
[08:19:13] <Hawku> 300mW laser and only USB power?
[08:19:58] <Rab> Benjamin23, LinuxCNC isn't a good fit for controlling Arduino/RAMPS. You will get the worst of both worlds.
[08:20:36] <MarkusBec> Hawku: it is powered by magic
[08:20:53] <CaptHindsight> 6-in-1 http://www.dx.com/p/6-in-1-diy-multi-functional-mini-drilling-sanding-turning-milling-machine-tool-kit-369220
[08:22:21] <CaptHindsight> China clone of RAMPS 1.4 $19 http://store.cutedigi.com/ramps-1-4-reprapp-arduino-mega-pololu-shield-for-3d-printer-rep/
[08:22:48] <CaptHindsight> sorry, just the shield
[08:25:06] <Rab> http://item.ebay.com/371163613762 brings it up to $30, possibly a whopping $40 after you add generic Pololu drivers.
[08:28:07] <archivist> has to be useful before I ever go arrrghuino thinking of this http://egirland.blogspot.it/2014/03/arduino-uno-as-usb-to-gpib-controller.html
[08:31:09] <CaptHindsight> http://slashdot.org/story/15/03/29/128253/arduino-dispute-reaches-out-to-distributors
[08:32:44] <Rab> archivist, looks like a nice effort, but seems unreliable without the proper GPIB transceivers.
[08:33:30] <archivist> Rab, true, I have a pile of the correct parts here but no roundtuit
[08:33:43] <Rab> And obviously you'd be better off with a $5 Arduino Pro Uno clone for on-chip USB.
[08:34:12] <Rab> Tarduino Pro Mini, I guess
[08:34:16] <archivist> I did have a link for another attempt somewhere
[08:35:30] <Rab> In fact I guess the guy has just made a roundabout effort reimplementing the typical Prologix controller without the transceivers.
[08:36:29] <CaptHindsight> http://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GTL-251/ $1080
[08:38:19] <archivist> here is another 488 toy http://www.dalton.ax/gpib/
[08:41:29] <archivist> and code is on github https://github.com/Galvant/gpibusb-firmware
[08:42:32] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: that looked familiar, here's another design using cdrom guts http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150326-maker-creates-sla-3d-printer-using-an-old-projector-10-dollars-in-parts.html
[08:44:31] <archivist> I did buy a tms9914 and drivers when I had a working BBC model B, so long lasting roundtuit
[08:45:11] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: yeah - it's crappy - but I can see it being really useful for teaching kids
[08:45:25] <archivist> and blinding them :)
[08:45:46] <archivist> retina serial numbers ftw
[08:45:47] <SpeedEvil> Teaching them not to look at the laser
[08:46:24] <SpeedEvil> however. 300mW laser - unless it hits a shiny thing and goes into teh eye isn't that dangerous
[08:47:21] <SpeedEvil> Consider that a 300mW laser, 10cm from the laser dot is emitting into 500cm^2 or so. The eye is .5cm^2 or so, so you have .3mW into the eye worst-case if you're looking at it from 10cm.
[08:47:37] <SpeedEvil> If,of course it's spreading evenly)
[08:48:12] <SpeedEvil> Even if you do hit a shiny spot - in reality if you've got a 5mm lens on the laser focussed to a .1mm spot 20mm away, that's quite a divergance
[08:49:59] <SpeedEvil> And is eye safe at ~40cm
[08:50:33] <SpeedEvil> 'eye safe' in that it is not more dangerous than a 1mW laser pointer
[08:50:40] <SpeedEvil> shone at your eye
[09:49:12] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/xdXxqsX
[10:28:06] <ssi> lolwat
[11:42:51] <Loetmichel> *hihi* my ex-apprentice just showed up at the company... "hi, i have some Glass fibre board i need to be cut to be USB mounting plates for my SNES... can you mill that?"
[11:42:52] <Loetmichel> $me:"sure thing!" *milling commences* apprentice: "what are you asking for the work?"
[11:42:52] <Loetmichel> $me: "nothin'"
[11:42:52] <Loetmichel> apprentice: "i thought you would say that.. so i brought you something..." $me just got home with a sixpack german beer (tannenzaepfle) ;-)
[11:46:11] <XXCoder1> Loetmichel: nice
[11:46:29] <eventor> oh, i know "tannenzaepfle" very well... each november we travel to a exhibition in ulm. they have enough tannenzaepfle.
[11:49:00] <Loetmichel> bring the megapack aspirin if you are not used to that stuff ;-)
[11:49:43] <Loetmichel> i just found it nice that my ex-apprentice anticipated my "nothing" and brought something anyways. it wasnt that much work tho
[12:37:59] <FinboySlick> For the electronics heard out there. Say I have an 'irrerplaceable' ATX PSU that went dead. Should I assume that it's a dead capacitor and how would I go about finding which (besides some obvious swollen can syndrome)?
[12:41:02] <XXCoder1> FinboySlick: wonder if multimeter could test capactors
[12:43:29] <MrFluffy> Nice walkthrough of psu repair, but I would never bother for a atx personally
[12:43:44] <MrFluffy> I did the one in my nec pc98, but that really is unobtanium...
[12:43:57] <MrFluffy> whoops forgot the url http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/atx-power-supply-repair-guide.html
[12:46:17] <jdh> it would have to be really weird to not find one you could adapt
[12:46:40] <MrFluffy> question for the experienced people here, what would be a good starting debounce value for hal signal debounce? Im getting random limit switch errors when the spindle is cutting. Ive jumpered them all in turn but it seems to be noise from the vfd rather than a bad switch being vibrated.
[12:47:23] <cradek> MrFluffy: it's better to fix the hardware (fix shielding and grounding, or power line filter on the vfd)
[12:47:43] <cradek> MrFluffy: but if you must use debounce why not trigger on your noise with halscope and then choose the time constant based on that
[12:50:16] <MrFluffy> The limit switches are wired with grounded FTP with the shields grounded out one end only, but the vfd has no powerline filtering on it and lives in the same machine cabinet as the bob and other stuff.
[12:50:40] <cradek> which end of the shields is grounded?
[12:50:50] <MrFluffy> cabinet end only
[12:51:20] <cradek> sounds pretty correct doesn't it
[12:51:46] <MrFluffy> on reflection its probably picking up the noise at the BOB which isnt shielded itself... Ill make a box from copper clad board to cover it I think.
[12:54:22] <MrFluffy> It doesnt happen often, every 5 minutes or so on average I get a joint error when the axis are nowhere near the switches. Maybe a switch is bad too, they are the original limits wired NC into one all-home signal.
[12:55:19] <FinboySlick> Well, it's a 1U ATX.
[12:55:39] <FinboySlick> And pretty old.
[12:56:05] <FinboySlick> There are some on ebay, but if I can get a quick fix, I'd have a working box while I wait.
[12:56:25] <MrFluffy> something odd with weird latches for hotswap like a dell poweredge one?
[12:57:12] <FinboySlick> MrFluffy: It's a Tyan Transport GX-28. Pretty sure they're relatively standard but still not that easy to find.
[12:57:32] <FinboySlick> They were standard way back in those days.
[12:59:34] <FinboySlick> It's a 24+8 setup and all I seem to have is 24+4.
[13:00:53] <XXCoder1> not adoptable?
[13:01:06] <FinboySlick> Might be.
[13:02:39] <FinboySlick> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Emacs-P1M-6400P-1U-Server-400-Watt-Power-Supply/371039395372
[13:05:06] <MrFluffy> AMD cpu...
[13:08:14] <FinboySlick> MrFluffy: Back then, they were the bomb.
[13:08:35] <XXCoder1> whats best cpu nowdays
[13:08:47] <FinboySlick> Depends on what you do with it, really.
[13:09:00] <XXCoder1> desktop pc
[13:10:52] <MrFluffy> FinboySlick: Yes, its relevant because it will mean it is probably a ATX12V-GES psu for a dual cpu board. And you can get adaptor cables to use a normal one but have to be careful as they have quite a heavy draw on some of the lines to do the extra core hence the extra pins to carry the current.
[13:12:25] <MrFluffy> I like atoms, fanless because theyre quiet :)
[13:12:46] <FinboySlick> Hehe, and they're almost as strong nowadays as that AMD dual socket thing.
[13:13:17] <FinboySlick> Well, okay, maybe not quite.
[13:14:52] <FinboySlick> I'll see if I can convince the board to start with a single 4pin thing, at least to confirm that it is the PSU that is dead.
[13:16:30] <MrFluffy> its always worth a pop the cover off for a quick looksee if its anything easy too
[13:16:48] <MrFluffy> I have been lucky in the past many times more than I deserve...
[15:40:34] <MrFluffy> andypugh: fixed the spindle thingy, though now it feels like cheating to run the machine remote watching via a ip cam.
[15:41:49] <LeelooMinai> As opposed to what, holding the toolbit with hand? :)
[15:42:00] <andypugh> halcmf -kf / loadusr halmeter -s pin motion.program-line
[15:42:41] <XXCoder1> hey LeelooMinai hows your project
[15:43:02] <LeelooMinai> A, got distracted by other projects...
[15:43:19] <MrFluffy> Ive only just got a dro on my universal mill, this def feels like cheating in comparison :)
[15:43:46] <_methods> beats the hell out of crankin handles
[15:44:42] <LeelooMinai> I will definitelly instal a camera on my cnc - so I can sit at the pc and watch the machine that is 3meters from me:)
[15:45:10] <MrFluffy> Im in the house 30m away, I cant even hear it running from here. Its odd.
[15:45:10] <XXCoder1> lol
[15:45:31] <XXCoder1> I probably will do so too since my cnc will be in garage while my pc is some distance away.
[15:45:54] <XXCoder1> MrFluffy: maybe some barrier between you and it
[15:46:00] <XXCoder1> do a sound survey
[15:46:38] <MrFluffy> No I mean for years Ive been stood there getting chips on me, this all feels a bit clinical, draw, click and go
[15:46:57] <XXCoder1> oh lol
[15:47:18] <MrFluffy> I run a cnc wire too, but I stand over that babysitting it because water escaping in random directions can get interesting.
[15:47:49] <archivist> still have to stand over the stop button to catch your cockups
[15:48:34] <MrFluffy> Yes I aircut the program before touching off for real. Toolchain isnt that proven yet...
[16:18:09] <skunkworks> !seen swpadnos
[16:18:09] <the_wench> last seen in 2013-10-31 00:54:44GMT 838:59:59 ago, saying Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]
[16:18:27] <archivist> same in any channel
[16:18:32] <Deejay> gn8
[16:18:41] <skunkworks> oh - duh
[16:38:06] <XXCoder1> insane.
[16:38:08] <XXCoder1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=73txXT21aZU
[16:56:26] <MrFluffy> Do I class as a heretic if I mention the runout on the crank?
[17:04:41] <andypugh> One could make a much better glass steam engine by machining the glass. But that would seem to be missing the point.
[17:12:16] <Connor> XXCoder1: I like Elbow engines..
[17:13:32] <MrFluffy> I like ones you can pour more methanol in until they go bang
[17:16:14] <MrFluffy> that sounds purile, but I build the engines for my funnybike
[17:40:20] <furrywolf> I think the point is to show off his glass skills, not build a commercially successful steam engine.
[18:54:25] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I wanted to ask you about your satellite internets
[18:54:48] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Can you dl an iso quickly?
[18:55:26] <JT-Shop> ul and dl depend on the weather and I'm supposed to get some speed I forget but I don't get that fast
[18:56:03] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: weather as in cloud cover?
[18:58:49] <JT-Shop> I assume it is moisture not just clouds
[18:59:17] <Jymmm> ah. goes dead, or just dawg slow or same difference?
[19:00:16] <JT-Shop> all of the above
[19:00:24] <furrywolf> and, if you consider your data cap to your monthly bill, how much does downloading an iso cost? :)
[19:00:40] <JT-Shop> just depends on how much moisture is between me and the satellite I assume
[19:00:44] <Jymmm> Heh, ok. and you get 5GB for $60/mo?
[19:01:03] <JT-Shop> I can download unlimited at night with a scheduler
[19:01:23] <JT-Shop> I'm on the 10GB plan, I think it's the min
[19:01:35] <Jymmm> $60?
[19:01:37] <furrywolf> JT-Shop: sounds like your dish is misaimed, you have bad cabling, or another problem... some slowdown is normal during bad weather, completely going dead is not.
[19:01:54] * JT-Shop hears the dinner bell
[19:02:08] <JT-Shop> could be the installer was from Arkansas
[19:02:31] <JT-Shop> furrywolf, you have satellite?
[19:02:33] <furrywolf> I used to install satellite internet, and never saw a good-condition system competely drop. I did, however, see a fuckton of mis-aimed dishes and bad cabling.
[19:02:46] <furrywolf> no, but I spent three years installing it.
[19:02:46] <JT-Shop> ok
[19:02:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I hve no idea what that means, jsut wondering how much it was monthly
[19:02:54] <furrywolf> WildBlue, to be specific.
[19:03:07] <JT-Shop> that's what I have wildblue
[19:03:44] <JT-Shop> come by my shop and check my antenna LOL
[19:04:08] <furrywolf> dish must be sturdily mounted, and pass a push-pull signal test. the $5 cheapo signal meters, with the wildblue pointing aid, work _better_ than a $400 birddog. cabling should be quad-shielded solid copper, with properly installed compression terminations. wildblue is VERY picky about terminations.
[19:04:11] * JT-Shop hears grumbling now from behind the belt
[19:04:23] <furrywolf> crimping the cable, including stapling it instead of using flexclips, will kill your signal.
[19:05:09] <JT-Shop> it's solid mounted and the installer was very specific about grounding, I recall that much
[19:05:25] <furrywolf> no, no matter how much you want it to, it won't get a good signal through tree branches or your neighbor's house. lol
[19:05:52] <JT-Shop> where mine is mounted it is clear of land based objects
[19:06:14] <JT-Shop> chow time for me
[19:06:29] <furrywolf> depending on when it was installed, they had a ton of problems with defective TRIAs (the part on the dish), with many years being recalled. but, this was 5+ years ago.
[19:06:30] <JT-Shop> maybe the shop tilted over the last few years
[19:06:35] <furrywolf> and I need to run errands and go to work... bbl
[19:06:45] <JT-Shop> see you later
[19:09:08] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCy0NEbJf4s
[19:09:19] <_methods> 3d cheese
[19:17:10] <CaptHindsight> a device worthy of a *duino controller
[19:18:30] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYB559Is9Y0 sadly NASA funded
[19:25:21] <_methods> astronauts gotta have pizza man
[19:25:39] <CaptHindsight> totally
[19:26:08] <andypugh> The Cheese one is funny. He _can’t_ be taking himself seriously.
[19:28:42] <_methods> yeah stepper attached to arm.....
[19:28:53] <_methods> classic 3d printer crowd work
[19:31:10] <andypugh> And not even a sensible geometry
[19:31:44] <andypugh> He could have done a lot better with a bit of bent coat-hanger, but they don’t think that way.
[19:33:10] <_methods> or a piece of wood with a hole in it lol
[19:33:40] <_methods> they love to make crazy rube goldberg contraptions to perform simple tasks for some reason
[19:34:00] <andypugh> Well, to be honest, so do I. :-)
[19:34:04] <_methods> i think the plastic fumes affect their spatial reasoning skills
[19:34:26] <_methods> haha
[19:38:19] <Rab> Like any of you yahoos wouldn't leap at the chance to mill some exotic Easy Cheese dispensing linkage out of billet 7075-T6 and/or stainless steel, with oven-baked hammertone paint in some historically-correct color, etc etc.
[19:39:45] <_methods> i'd give anything just to be a part of easy cheese history
[19:41:15] <andypugh> I like to use Brass.
[19:42:24] <andypugh> I shovelled several kg of brass swarf off of the machines last night. I probably should either melt it down or cash it in as scrap.
[19:43:46] <andypugh> Not the most material-efficient way to make brackets: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/NerACar?noredirect=1#6112525165061477682
[19:47:29] <_methods> where's the cheese wiz
[19:49:44] <andypugh> Well, quite. But I rather feel that headlight brackets would need to be parmesan for stiffness.
[19:51:12] <Rab> Here is some quality 3D-printed cheese: http://www.cyclonecnc.4fan.cz/portalcyclone/
[19:59:35] <andypugh> I don’t see the advantage in putting lightening holes in light, but not-stiff material.
[20:30:31] <andypugh> Sometimes I just want to say “F-off and buy Mach, see if you get better support there” http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/29026-first-time-user-with-first-cnc?start=10#57323
[20:31:33] <zeeshan> http://gyazo.com/c5dca7f5eef386107fbc9f2d97f51787
[20:31:41] <zeeshan> anyone forsee problems ?:p
[20:32:33] <zeeshan> i wish i could easily make a sliding door for it
[20:33:00] <Rab> zeeshan, that's for your lathe?
[20:33:03] <zeeshan> yea
[20:33:14] <zeeshan> the bottom door i think will be latched on all the time
[20:33:23] <zeeshan> will open it for chip cleaning after a while
[20:33:31] <zeeshan> the left door is the most important
[20:33:35] <zeeshan> for tool changes
[20:36:02] <andypugh> zeeshan: The door overlaps are the wrong way round for coolant splash.
[20:37:12] <andypugh> Flanges on the bottoms of the top doors are probably all that it needs though.
[20:38:57] <zeeshan> andypugh: hmm
[20:39:33] <andypugh> I quite like the gas-strut up-and-away covers that Denford used: This is a mill, but I think I have seen it on lathes: http://www.ppauctions.com/_assets/archived/machinery_formerly_maintained_by_cnc_machine_tools_ltd_25/lot_142_8960.jpg
[20:39:53] <zeeshan> andypugh: that works well i think for smaller lengths
[20:40:04] <zeeshan> i think it might be a pain in the rear for doing simple tool changes
[20:40:17] <zeeshan> but ive never owned one so i cant fully say :P
[20:40:27] <andypugh> Hard to split, thinking about it.
[20:40:43] <andypugh> Hey, M6 could raise the cover for you :-)
[20:41:12] <zeeshan> ROFL
[20:41:15] <andypugh> (and pulling it down triggers tool-changed)
[20:41:20] <zeeshan> that would BE BAd ass
[20:41:44] <zeeshan> i'd prolly get wacked in the face by it
[20:41:45] <CaptHindsight> http://shop.agic.cc/collections/everything/products/agic-circuit-printer-starter-set
[20:43:00] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: That’s rather interesting, but rather expensive.
[20:43:12] <malcom2073> Evaporust trials: Wrapped: http://mikesshop.net/millcleanup/DSCN1972.JPG Unwrapped: http://mikesshop.net/millcleanup/DSCN1976.JPG After cleaning up with steel wool: http://mikesshop.net/millcleanup/DSCN1978.JPG
[20:43:18] <malcom2073> The CNC is getting closer and closer to running!
[20:44:13] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: well anything inkjet is generally priced high and they act like silver ink is made of gold :)
[20:44:50] <andypugh> I can imagine that silver inkjet ink is genuinely expensive. Even normal pigments are not cheap.
[20:45:06] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: they actually are
[20:45:23] <zeeshan> malcom2073: nice!
[20:45:31] <zeeshan> that really cleaned up
[20:45:41] <andypugh> (I single toner cartridge for my laser printer is £175, but that just means that when one runs out I will scrap the printer)
[20:45:44] <malcom2073> Turns out they're brushed DC servos and servo drives
[20:46:01] <zeeshan> malcom2073: i think that was the stadnard back in the day
[20:46:06] <zeeshan> from what ive learned :p
[20:46:13] <zeeshan> resolvers or tachogenerators with dc brush servos
[20:46:39] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: if you want to diy your own silver ink http://jordanbunker.com/archives/41
[20:46:55] <malcom2073> Has both, encoder and a tachogenerator, 10,000rpm per volt it says lol. The drivers are +/-10v analog input though, so easy mesa hookup :-D
[20:47:23] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Well, OK, the pigments may be, but they know how to charge for cartridges. In the context of printer consumables that looks almost fair for actual silver conductive ink. I am actually astonished that you can inkjet conductive ink at all.
[20:48:13] <andypugh> malcom2073: Keep the tach to driver link. That is old school but effective
[20:48:33] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: besides spark timing in autos, what is are the shortest response times you've seen required with EFI?
[20:48:54] <malcom2073> andypugh: I'm leaving the wiring alone, it worked with EMC, so I'm not touching much electrically
[20:49:21] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: yeah, aqueous inkjet ink is 95% water and a few $$ per liter in materials
[20:50:12] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Injection timing is tighter than spark timing because it sets fuel volume. Resolution is about 100uS I think (I can check if it really matters)
[20:50:40] <malcom2073> andypugh: Only for direct injection engines
[20:50:48] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: I'm look at various EFI controllers for custom projects
[20:50:54] <CaptHindsight> look/looking
[20:51:35] <andypugh> There are off-the-shelf options, any reason not to just buy an Emerald or similar?
[20:51:41] <CaptHindsight> I've seen 100uS in some of the timer source for min resolution
[20:51:48] <malcom2073> Ah, accuracy of the pulse width vs accuracy of the cycle timing, nm
[20:52:02] <malcom2073> 100uS is not nearly enough for spark
[20:52:09] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: not flexible enough and prices
[20:52:11] <malcom2073> Or rather, is way too much
[20:52:51] <CaptHindsight> take max rpm and 720 deg
[20:53:58] <Tom_itx> might be something useful in here for somebody here: http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz/
[20:54:17] <Tom_itx> old legacy dos programs
[20:54:30] <Tom_itx> most run under windows cmd prompt
[20:55:18] <andypugh> Yes, you are right, 100uS is 6 crank degrees at 10,000 rpm. Bear with me, I brought the laptop home.
[20:55:39] <CaptHindsight> thanks
[20:56:29] <malcom2073> <1uS is a good target, but you're not going to see that except in
[20:56:38] <malcom2073> dual core systems
[20:56:52] <malcom2073> like the s12x and the like
[20:57:22] <malcom2073> The *duino ecu guys get by with a lot less, but they're not running very sensitive engines heh
[20:57:57] <malcom2073> I keep wanting to get one of the arm/fpga boards and play around with it, be perfect for that sort of application
[20:58:43] <CaptHindsight> comparing stm32F4 and also SmartFusion
[20:58:59] <CaptHindsight> cortex-m3 with FPGA
[20:58:59] <malcom2073> I was eying up the SmartFusion, cheap dev board
[20:59:10] <malcom2073> Looked fairly promising
[20:59:27] <CaptHindsight> how much can just be put in fpga?
[20:59:51] <malcom2073> I figure trigger wheel reading, and output timing would be the only things needed
[21:00:15] <malcom2073> Just havet he ARM proc tell it what degree to fire on, the fpga would track the engine position itself
[21:00:35] <malcom2073> Parallel it, one pipe for each input and output
[21:00:55] <malcom2073> <- no FPGA experience though, so its pure thought
[21:01:02] <CaptHindsight> MC9S12XDP512 is the other micro some projects are using
[21:01:12] <CaptHindsight> http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=S12XD
[21:01:23] <malcom2073> Yeah, the problem with that, is you have to write assembly for the xgate. I think the C compiler is $$$
[21:01:34] <malcom2073> (xgate being the secondary timing processor)'
[21:01:46] <CaptHindsight> yes, no open compiler for the X
[21:02:01] <malcom2073> Now, some have written timing stuff for the xgate, and it seems to work pretty well
[21:02:11] <CaptHindsight> with hand packing they have 6cyl engines going
[21:02:29] <malcom2073> v8's with sequential and COP spark
[21:02:33] <CaptHindsight> freeems, libreems
[21:02:34] <andypugh> The old Ford ECU is almost Open nowadays.
[21:02:45] <CaptHindsight> rusefi uses stm32f4
[21:02:46] <furrywolf> most uCs can generate quite accurately timed pulses.
[21:02:54] <furrywolf> any uC with hardware timers...
[21:02:58] <malcom2073> furrywolf: You can run a car on an arduino
[21:03:00] <malcom2073> it's been done
[21:03:20] <furrywolf> I can run a car by sitting on top of the engine and dribbling fuel out of a jerry can. I've done it. that doesn't mean it works well. :)
[21:03:24] <CaptHindsight> it starts to feel like Linuxcnc
[21:03:30] <andypugh> (the name of it might come back to me)
[21:03:31] <malcom2073> freeems doesn't use the xgate so is limited to 6, libreems uses the xgate, so can do v12 sequential and up.
[21:03:42] <malcom2073> Yeah, it's very open sourcy
[21:03:43] <malcom2073> the whole thing
[21:03:44] <furrywolf> eec-iv?
[21:04:02] <CaptHindsight> speeduino
[21:04:07] <malcom2073> Yeah eev-iv is pretty well hacked, as is the OBD1 GM stuff
[21:04:15] <CaptHindsight> https://github.com/noisymime/speeduino
[21:04:18] <malcom2073> yeah
[21:04:28] <furrywolf> old eec-iv is speed-density and very easy to make work.
[21:04:31] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EEC
[21:04:43] <CaptHindsight> http://www.megamanual.com/MSFAQ.htm MegaSquirt
[21:05:04] <malcom2073> Megasquirt is a decent closed source diy one
[21:05:15] <malcom2073> Not hackable, if you hack it, they go after you with lawyers lol
[21:05:27] <CaptHindsight> https://code.google.com/p/open5xxxecu/
[21:05:34] <furrywolf> but, as I was saying, most uCs can generate very accurately timed pulses, both start and duration. You set them up in advance using the hardware timers. The software might have crap timing, but as long as it can set the hardware timer up in advance, that's irrelevant.
[21:05:40] <malcom2073> Yeah o5e died sadly, they had a really good idea, I got one of their dev boards
[21:06:04] <malcom2073> I keep bugging the lead dev to start it back up, but he's lost interest I think
[21:06:10] <malcom2073> It was supposed to be "pro"
[21:06:15] <furrywolf> 1us is dead easy.
[21:06:17] <malcom2073> aiming to take on the $10k ecu's at a $2k price
[21:06:29] <CaptHindsight> http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page rusEfi
[21:06:44] <malcom2073> That's the stm32 one?
[21:06:50] <CaptHindsight> yea
[21:06:51] <malcom2073> yeah
[21:07:06] <malcom2073> Never played much with stm32, I suppose it's not better or worse than the others? dunno
[21:07:25] * furrywolf gives up, and decides everyone here wants to throw way too much processor power at it and bit-bang the timers, rather than properly use hardware timers
[21:07:31] <malcom2073> Tbh I still think the dual core (I have a LPC4370 sitting here....) is the way to go
[21:07:44] <CaptHindsight> why SmartFusion is also interesting
[21:07:44] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Nah, there's no chip with enough hardware timers
[21:07:50] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: FPGA scares me some
[21:07:58] <malcom2073> But that would work better than dual core
[21:08:10] <CaptHindsight> I don't mind, it's just more work for me vs some software dev
[21:08:12] <furrywolf> how many hardware timers do you need? my math says about two.
[21:08:42] <furrywolf> one for fuel, one for spark. which cylinder for each is selected by a 3:8 demux on low-speed io pins.
[21:08:50] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Depends on if your hardware timers support masked compare interrupts
[21:09:38] <furrywolf> you could get that down even lower if you did the ford thing and fired the injectors in two sets instead of individualy, or if you had a wasted-spark ignition system that only needed half as many coil transistors...
[21:09:56] <malcom2073> Sequential is where it's at, no reason with modern power to do batch fire
[21:10:19] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: this might be the way to get those small diesel 4cyl engines to work without the factory ECU's tied to them
[21:10:48] <CaptHindsight> unless they have encryption in the injectors
[21:10:51] <malcom2073> But yeah, you can do it with single timers, one for fuel and one for spark and demuxers, that's what the arduino does afaik
[21:11:07] <andypugh> I wrote a spark/injection timing thing for Arduino mega and a V10 if anyone cares :-)
[21:11:58] <malcom2073> Heh
[21:12:09] <andypugh> (furrywolf might be pleased to know that it clocks-through a table on crank-pulse interrupt with a non-realtime thread populating the tables)
[21:12:14] <malcom2073> Like furrywolf said, jerry can
[21:12:15] <malcom2073> :P
[21:12:18] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: working on a Viper?
[21:12:40] <andypugh> http://www.f1-2000.co.uk
[21:12:48] <furrywolf> most of my timer experience is on the hc11, and on those, it's trivial to set a timer to raise a pin at a certain time and lower it at a later time, without needing any interrupts or other processing...
[21:13:20] <andypugh> furrywolf: Yes, but, in an engine it makes sense to trigger on crank position.
[21:13:27] <furrywolf> malcom2073: I've done that for short-distance moves of vehicles with fuel system issues... as long as you get the fuel flow reasonable... :P
[21:13:32] <malcom2073> Heh
[21:15:06] <furrywolf> andypugh: it makes sense NOT to directly use any sensor inputs. if you have a hardware dependency on the crank position sensor, you can't them limp-home with just the cam position sensor, etc.
[21:15:18] <furrywolf> s/them/then
[21:15:25] <andypugh> I have looked around on the laptop and it looks like injection timing has moved to the supplier layer, and we only get to request a fuel mass now, and can’t tweak the mass-to-timing maps.
[21:16:11] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am not sure that you ever can limp home on cam sensor only.
[21:16:32] <andypugh> (granted you stand more chance with that than crank-only)
[21:16:34] <malcom2073> andypugh: You should be able to, but you'd be limited to batch fire and wasted spark if the hardware is capable
[21:16:54] <andypugh> Sparks? what are those?
[21:17:00] <CaptHindsight> Infineon Tricore http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/microcontroller/32-bit-tricore-tm-microcontroller/channel.html?channel=ff80808112ab681d0112ab6b64b50805
[21:17:01] <malcom2073> Heh
[21:17:10] <malcom2073> They're what people who use lesser fuels have to do to ignite them :P
[21:17:18] <furrywolf> andypugh: sure you can. timing will suck, but just retard it enough you won't cause damage, and it'll limp home fine.
[21:17:35] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Nice, three cores. 4 is next!
[21:17:53] <CaptHindsight> featuring dual lockstep cores!
[21:18:10] <andypugh> Today I ran an engine at full load for 20 minutes with no coolant at all. Bizarrely it was fine.
[21:18:29] <furrywolf> heh, on a vehicle that would limp on just cam but fail on just crank, I always figured they should have added a crank-position-sensor-only limp-home mode... while you're cranking it, every couple revolutions alter the guess of where you're at by one cylinder. repeat until engine catches. :)
[21:18:52] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Amusingly enough, I ran my car like that for a while
[21:19:00] <malcom2073> crank for a while, if it didn't catch, reboot ecu and try again
[21:19:06] <furrywolf> andypugh: I do that with my lawnmower all the time! oh, you mean one that's supposed to have coolant... :)
[21:19:08] <malcom2073> had a 50/50 chance of getting it each time
[21:19:14] <furrywolf> lol
[21:19:35] <malcom2073> I've since re-wired the injectors so that it doesn't matter
[21:19:37] <andypugh> furrywolf: There was discussion of that. Delete the cam sensor, try every TDC, work out which one works and stick with it. Sae $5 per car. Proift.
[21:20:09] <furrywolf> andypugh: works great until you miss a couple crank pulses and forget where you are...
[21:20:26] <malcom2073> If you forget where you are, the car shuts off anyway
[21:20:27] <andypugh> The missing-tooth index will save you
[21:20:48] <furrywolf> if I remember right, this vehicle didn't have one, instead relying on the cam sensor for that.
[21:20:55] <zeeshan> fin mitsubishis
[21:21:01] <zeeshan> cam and crank sensor sync issues! :P
[21:21:49] <zeeshan> im working on my brakes
[21:21:59] <furrywolf> it had three (6cyl) identical sets of notches around the flywheel.
[21:22:02] <zeeshan> deciding on if i should go with cu ni line or just good ol steel
[21:22:05] <zeeshan> w/ polymer coating
[21:22:17] <furrywolf> but, yeah, you could probably do away with the cam sensor and just use crank sensor.
[21:22:23] <andypugh> I keep meaning to add missing-tooth index to LinuxCNC. The magnetic crank sensors are _perfect_ for a lathe spindle (big thorugh-hole) and are bidirectional now on a single channel. One pulse per mark, direction indicated by mark-space ratio, missing tooth as index. So, index + direction for only one wire and IO pin.
[21:24:10] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150325-new-gizmo-3ds-super-fast-dlp-3d-printer-creates-objects-in-6-minutes.html still layers but the Z just moves continuously
[21:24:22] <CaptHindsight> and only useful for low viscosity resins
[21:25:12] <CaptHindsight> this is similar to how we print the cell phone and laptop cases
[21:25:18] <ffurrywol> <furrywolf> but, yeah, you could probably do away with the cam sensor and just use crank sensor.
[21:25:20] <ffurrywol> <furrywolf> I've always used steel.
[21:25:35] <ffurrywol> <furrywolf> especially if your ecu was one that killed its own power rather than being directly switched by the key, so you could watch the crank sensor on shutdown and stuff it in keepalive memory, to avoid any delay on next startup. it's still possible the engine could rotate afterwards, but not often, so it wouldn't cause extended starts except in very rare circumstances.
[21:25:45] <CaptHindsight> only we add inserts or other steps in between layers
[21:26:07] <zeeshan> ffurrywol: thats what the mitusbishi ecu does
[21:26:16] <zeeshan> tracks the sensor even when the car shuts off
[21:26:21] <zeeshan> so the next start up is pretty instant
[21:26:30] <zeeshan> when people swap to an aem ems , they lost this ability
[21:26:32] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: I am not seeing what is new there.
[21:26:49] <furrywolf> also, I hate 3g.
[21:27:04] <andypugh> I have already written the LinuxCNC module to do that, and the Inventor Macro to make the SVG.
[21:27:17] <furrywolf> why can they route your call between two towers, but they have to drop all your connections every time anything at all changes?
[21:27:37] <andypugh> And a friend is printing top-down with LinuxCNC and continuous Z-motion right now.
[21:28:02] <zeeshan> 39.567x 9.055
[21:28:36] <andypugh> (it took me some effort to persuade him to remove the colour wheel, but that’s given him a 5x speed boost)
[21:28:36] <furrywolf> I've often thought about building my own ECU... if I ever get a subaru diesel motor, I might do so. it's supposed to be a pain to make the stock ecu work - you have to swap in way too many parts of the original car. although some minor hacking would probably fix that...
[21:29:34] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: sounds like he was using resins sensitive to well under 420nm
[21:29:46] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: The problem with those printers is that it costs thousands to fill the vat
[21:30:17] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: I make my own
[21:30:36] <andypugh> (The chap I am working with has found a way to float the resin on an inert and dense liquid)
[21:30:41] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: how big is his vat?
[21:31:20] <andypugh> It’s not huge. 10 litres or so?
[21:31:46] <furrywolf> I've never understood why photopolymers are so expensive. I don't think the materials or processes needed are any more costly than other materials available much, much cheaper, so it must be "because we can" pricing.
[21:31:47] <CaptHindsight> $500 in resin
[21:32:30] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: it depends on the resin, some components are $2/lb others $20
[21:32:31] <andypugh> furrywolf: It’s the photo-catalyst part.
[21:33:17] <CaptHindsight> nah photoinitiators are 25 cents per liter of resin
[21:33:33] <andypugh> Oh, OK.
[21:33:58] <furrywolf> I think it's "we're selling to researchers, corporations, and educational institutions, so we can add another zero".
[21:34:42] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: So, do your home-made ones cost $50 / litre?
[21:34:44] <CaptHindsight> some of the fancy ones are a few $ per liter of resin
[21:35:12] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: not home made, I mix them by the drum http://bucktownpolymers.com/
[21:36:26] <furrywolf> if you can make them that cheaply, you should start selling them to hobbyists at much, much less than market prices.
[21:37:19] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: we do, but hobby is lots of work for little return
[21:37:52] <CaptHindsight> $100 or resin for $200 in consulting time
[21:38:01] <andypugh> Ooh! Look at the time!
[21:38:07] <andypugh> Time I was asleep.
[21:38:23] <Cromaglious> ugh broke another program... it want's QT4:4.7.x
[21:38:25] <CaptHindsight> don;t you have to be up soon?
[21:39:16] * furrywolf will need to keep CaptHindsight in mind if ever building a stl machine
[21:40:31] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: commercial accounts buy 200Kg at a time
[21:41:31] <furrywolf> only raw material I've ever bought 200kg at once of was mild steel.
[21:41:36] <furrywolf> and wood.
[21:42:16] <Cromaglious> I usually get gravel 4 to 12 tones at a time
[21:42:31] <furrywolf> I've never bought gravel. that's something you get free.
[21:43:24] <Cromaglious> not clean crushed gravel. I can't use river rock, caleche, or base
[21:43:59] <furrywolf> ah. I had a friend that worked at the quary, and he'd be happy to fill your truck up with anything they had a big mound of.
[21:44:09] <furrywolf> all I ever got was road base...
[21:44:15] <Cromaglious> natural pea gravel is too smooth and won't pack tight enought
[21:44:26] <furrywolf> the stuff that's pointy and has lots of clay, so it packs together tight and stays that way.
[21:44:39] <Cromaglious> I can't use base since to much clay. I need the fill to perk
[21:44:52] <Cromaglious> Perculate - drain
[21:45:16] <furrywolf> yes, I know.
[21:45:38] <furrywolf> actually, come to think of it, I did buy gravel once... for the filter pack at the bottom of my well. but that was a few bags, not 200kg. :)
[21:45:59] <CaptHindsight> what does gravel for, per (2k lb) ton?
[21:46:09] <CaptHindsight> sell for
[21:46:12] <Cromaglious> french drains I use smooth pea gravel, great filter
[21:46:29] <furrywolf> yeah, I used smooth washed pea gravel too.
[21:46:52] <Cromaglious> depends on hard far it travels... $15 to $60 a yard
[21:47:11] <Cromaglious> yard ~= 3300#'s
[21:47:24] <Cromaglious> s/hard/how/
[21:47:47] <furrywolf> someone I know decided to fill his f250 with road base... and I mean fill. it drove, kinda... lol
[21:47:53] <zeeshan> damn it
[21:47:54] <zeeshan> andy left
[21:48:07] <furrywolf> 8x5x3ft of road base >> 3/4 ton. :)
[21:48:11] <roycroft> gravel sells by the yard here, not the ton
[21:48:12] <CaptHindsight> well like 3:30 in the UK
[21:48:19] <Cromaglious> base is fun... Jello when damp, rock when dry
[21:48:21] <roycroft> 3/4 minus is $12.50/yard in small quantities
[21:48:35] <CaptHindsight> I'm not sure if he sleeps more than 4 hours a night
[21:49:12] <Cromaglious> 3/4- is great for dryways, not for pools
[21:49:18] <zeeshan> fuck i hate solidworks fea
[21:49:22] <furrywolf> I think that was the worst-overloaded full-size pickup I've ever seen.
[21:49:43] <Cromaglious> we usually get it via screen size here
[21:51:02] <furrywolf> come to think of it, this is the same friend that managed to roll his pickup trying to move a 40ft conex box on a 20ft trailer...
[21:51:27] <CaptHindsight> as a kids my friends dad would load up his VW bus with gravel, I don't know how we survived those trips back
[21:51:39] <Cromaglious> HAHA and you clame him as a friend. Not aquaintence?
[21:52:10] <Cromaglious> VW bus are rated at 1 ton
[21:52:16] <furrywolf> free advise: if you've loaded a trailer such that your back wheels are trying to lift up off the ground just sitting there, you're doing it wrong. :)
[21:52:19] <furrywolf> advice
[21:52:21] <Cromaglious> more than a 3/4 ton ford
[21:52:29] <CaptHindsight> i think the gravel was heavier than the whole VW bus
[21:52:58] <furrywolf> with the 40ft box on the 20ft trailer, >2/3rds of the weight was behind the axle on the trailer... meaning about -2000lbs tongue weight.
[21:54:10] <Cromaglious> 40' hmm tare on those is like 6800#
[21:54:49] <Cromaglious> never ever buy the short ones, get the 9.5' tall sea bins/connex/shipping container
[21:54:55] <furrywolf> the place he was getting the box from told him it was a fucking stupid idea. "it'll be fine". one of his other friends told him it'd be a fucking stupid idea. "it'll be fine!". "ok, I'm getting out my phone and filming it...".
[21:55:09] <furrywolf> he made it about a block, then tried turning. rear wheels lifted up, container kept going straight...
[21:55:10] <Cromaglious> hehe
[21:55:45] <furrywolf> the highway patrol was too dumbfounded to write him a ticket.
[21:55:47] <Cromaglious> he really needed a mule
[21:55:47] <Jymmm> Cromaglious: how much?
[21:55:59] <furrywolf> Cromaglious: "high cube".
[21:56:34] <Cromaglious> down here you can get a 40' painted in decent condition for $5K delivered
[21:56:59] <Jymmm> Cromaglious: decent? minmal dentss? rust?
[21:57:18] <furrywolf> the highway patrol apparantly had some comments along the lines of "what were you thinking?!"
[21:57:26] <Cromaglious> boss got 2 40's cut down to 30' painted and delivered for 12K
[21:57:54] <Jymmm> painted to get rid of the markings?
[21:57:58] <Cromaglious> no holes no rust through
[21:58:08] <Jymmm> nice
[21:58:13] <Cromaglious> floor w/ no holes
[21:58:28] <furrywolf> I've always thought my friend would fit in very well in rural russia.
[21:58:34] <Cromaglious> nah, slow down rust and make them look better
[21:58:41] <Jymmm> ah ok
[21:58:58] <furrywolf> the land of "hold my vodka and watch this".
[21:59:11] <Jymmm> Cromaglious: corigated floor or plywood covered?
[21:59:19] <Cromaglious> alot of cities around here say you can't have them in residential areas, but don't say anything if they look pretty
[21:59:29] <Cromaglious> plywood
[21:59:33] <Jymmm> k
[21:59:37] <furrywolf> all the ones I've seen have been plywood. didn't know they made metal floored ones.
[21:59:43] <Jymmm> or, even make them you house =)
[21:59:53] <Cromaglious> I think it's Miller
[22:00:03] <furrywolf> no, they do not make good houses. that is a myth spread by wannabe hippies.
[22:00:14] <zeeshan> any of you guys recycle transformers before?
[22:00:27] <Cromaglious> no Marten
[22:00:29] <Jymmm> zeeshan: define recycle?
[22:00:31] <furrywolf> by the time you get it to a stage where you're not just living in a box, you've spent just as much as building a normal structure.
[22:00:35] <zeeshan> scrap
[22:00:38] <zeeshan> make money
[22:00:47] <furrywolf> sure I've recycled them... by taking them to the local scrapyard and putting them in a pile on their scale.
[22:00:51] <zeeshan> i went through my tansformers today along wit hthe scrap i got
[22:00:58] <zeeshan> they weight 650lb~
[22:01:01] <Jymmm> zeeshan: No, I just harvest the copper and out in a 5gal bucket
[22:01:10] <Jymmm> put*
[22:01:15] <zeeshan> im wondering if i can scrap them as is and make money
[22:01:19] <Cromaglious> martin http://www.container.com
[22:01:25] <zeeshan> without havning to through the hassle of going through breaking em apart for the copper
[22:01:36] <Jymmm> zeeshan: you'll make more money seperating the copper from the steel
[22:01:47] <zeeshan> the laminated steel isnt worth anything?
[22:01:51] <furrywolf> depends on what your time is worth.
[22:01:55] <zeeshan> that shit costs a fortune when you wanna buy some
[22:01:57] <zeeshan> for custom winding
[22:01:58] <Jymmm> zeeshan: if you have a lot of steel it is
[22:02:00] <furrywolf> the laminated steel is worth about $80/ton.
[22:02:11] <zeeshan> i found this one site near by that says this:
[22:02:38] <Cromaglious> clean copper is $2 a #,
[22:03:00] <furrywolf> Cromaglious: to buy, maybe... scrap prices have gone back down lately.
[22:03:15] <tjtr33> anyone know a model of 1 wire crankshaft sensor like andypugh was talkin bout? ~"direction based on mark/space"
[22:03:18] <Cromaglious> crap..
[22:03:19] <zeeshan> http://bomet.ca/files/20120427_BOMET_Price_Sheet_CAM_1255.pdf
[22:03:23] <zeeshan> oh nm
[22:03:26] <zeeshan> that price sheet is old as crap
[22:03:43] <Cromaglious> 2012 hehe sure is
[22:03:44] <furrywolf> I was amazed when I was shopping the other day, and they were selling 50ft 12/3 extension cords for $19.99 again.
[22:03:55] <zeeshan> but they they were giving 56 cents a lb
[22:04:58] <Cromaglious> tjtr33, hmmm must be some sort of inductance w/ a magner in the crank
[22:05:32] <zeeshan> http://www.scrapmonster.com/scrap-metal-prices/copper-scrap/copper-transformer-scrap/32
[22:06:47] <tjtr33> Cromaglious, thx, i understand the tech, but the direction isnt mention by Allegro in 1 wire . i was wondering who made it
[22:07:29] <furrywolf> I've dumped about 2lbs of scrap metal in the ditch out front in the last two weeks... electrolysis rust removal sure eats anodes!
[22:09:07] <Cromaglious> you tell direction by which way current goes or rise time... it's freacky math... My uncle actaully used it in a hard drive to tell wether a error was on the outside of the head or inide of the head on the platter
[22:09:51] <tjtr33> ok but he was saying it comes out mark/space like serial communication
[22:10:12] <tjtr33> i'll ask tomorry
[22:11:18] <furrywolf> hrmm, how could you implement limp-home on a car with only a crank sensor and no cam sensor? the best I've thought of is monitoring the battery voltage during cranking to determine compression strokes, repeatedly guessing which cylinder until it catches, then trying to watch for exhaust strokes with the o2 sensors (or their heaters) or similar funkyness...
[22:12:18] <Cromaglious> unless your magnets are segemented and you're getting a puuuulse-pulse-pulse on direction and pulse-pulse-puuuuulse the other
[22:12:48] <furrywolf> ohh! sample battery voltage fast enough to pick up the alternator 3ph ripple, then use the compression strokes monitored during cranking to determine the belt ratio.
[22:13:46] <furrywolf> would still need to detect exhaust somehow... maybe run alternate cylinders rich and lean?
[22:14:12] <Cromaglious> on limp home, doesn't matter if you're on exhaust or compression... you fire plug at both times, and time mpi or tpi based on TPS
[22:14:33] <furrywolf> Cromaglious: but with no crank sensor, you have to determine where the engine is somehow. :)
[22:14:51] <Cromaglious> using crank sensor
[22:15:13] <furrywolf> ... limp-home mode for a failed crank sensor.
[22:15:33] <furrywolf> and, no, displaying "call AAA" on the dash doesn't count.
[22:15:39] <Cromaglious> ahh... redundent
[22:16:05] <Cromaglious> hmm multiple crank sensors
[22:16:47] <Cromaglious> you need timing unless you'
[22:16:55] <furrywolf> if you ran alternate cylinders rich and lean, with a modern lambda sensor, you should be able to detect their exhaust strokes, and derive timing from that... during cranking the battery voltage dips quite strongly with compression strokes...
[22:18:13] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG1X2sPU4LY
[22:18:13] <zeeshan> jeez
[22:18:15] <zeeshan> this guy is crazy
[22:18:27] <Cromaglious> induction sensor looking for counter weight on harmonic balancer
[22:18:59] <furrywolf> yes, I know how to add more sensors. I mean how to NOT add more sensors. lol
[22:19:04] <Cromaglious> I still say use redundent systems for crank positioning
[22:19:20] <zeeshan> fuck now i want to find a friend with one of those crushers
[22:19:27] <zeeshan> to just throw all these in
[22:19:31] <furrywolf> hrmm, not your typical scrapper. around here there's a lot of overlap between scrappers and tweekers...
[22:19:40] <Cromaglious> magnet and a bolt with a coil is about as foolproof as you can get
[22:19:44] <zeeshan> and use magnet to sort out the steel
[22:21:03] <Cromaglious> I'm presuming no distributor body
[22:23:54] <Cromaglious> 1 wire is a bolt with a coil grounded by the bolt. trigger by a magnet on a spinning part, crank, cam, distrbutor shaft, magnito drive, ....
[22:26:10] <ffurrywol> <furrywolf> yes, again, I know how to add sensors. andy was talking about eliminating sensors to save money. I'm thinking about how limphome for a failed crank position sensor could be implemented with no additional sensors.
[22:27:51] <ffurrywol> zeeshan: build an inert gas filled furance, melt out the copper, cast it into blocks? :)
[22:27:54] <Cromaglious> So what sensors do we have
[22:28:02] <zeeshan> haha furrywolf
[22:28:04] <zeeshan> that would be sweet
[22:28:09] <zeeshan> but im afraid that'd take more energy!
[22:29:14] <ffurrywol> several people here are doing casting...
[22:29:49] <Cromaglious> you could kinda guess crank position from manifold pulses...
[22:30:36] <furrywolf> Cromaglious: hrmm... throttle position, mass airflow, manifold pressure (maybe - still needed with maf?), intake air temp (integrated into maf), coolant temp, o2, and a failed crank position.
[22:30:58] <Cromaglious> anything off the engine would have to do a cogged belt
[22:31:25] <Cromaglious> O2 is too slow reacting
[22:31:51] <furrywolf> modern o2 sensors are pretty fast, and wide-range.
[22:32:00] <Cromaglious> it would have to be map and maf
[22:32:13] <zeeshan> why eliminate sensorz
[22:32:16] <zeeshan> they are so cheap!
[22:32:19] <zeeshan> junkyard win
[22:32:20] <furrywolf> I don't think a hotwire maf can respond fast enough to get any timing info
[22:32:44] <zeeshan> you dont need map w/ maf
[22:32:52] <zeeshan> a lot of mafs have a differential pressure sensor
[22:32:53] <Cromaglious> MAP does
[22:32:55] <zeeshan> for altitude compensation
[22:33:08] <zeeshan> but unless you're really in some mountainous area
[22:33:11] <zeeshan> i dont think that's needed
[22:33:13] <zeeshan> nor is intake air temp
[22:33:26] <furrywolf> what about half the cylinders rich, half lean? even a slow o2 sensor might notice that...
[22:33:42] <furrywolf> intake air temp is a fundamental part of hotwire maf sensors, so it's free
[22:33:50] <zeeshan> im talkin about maf
[22:34:13] <zeeshan> you're metering the actual air flow
[22:34:18] <zeeshan> so theres no guessing needed like with amp
[22:34:19] <zeeshan> *map
[22:34:32] <Cromaglious> yepfrom temp and mass and amount of air flow we can get RPMs
[22:34:33] <furrywolf> yes, I know. again, intake air temp is measured as part of how the maf sensor functions.
[22:34:43] <zeeshan> ?
[22:35:17] <zeeshan> you must be thinking of a hotwire sensor
[22:35:21] <zeeshan> im thinking of a karman vortex
[22:35:28] <Cromaglious> use MAP to figure where crank is in cycle.
[22:35:29] <renesis> i think most maf are just flaps?
[22:35:41] <renesis> on a pot, maybe a hall sensor
[22:35:45] <Cromaglious> hot wire
[22:36:00] <Cromaglious> all the ones I ever see are all hot wire
[22:36:10] <renesis> shrug
[22:36:19] <furrywolf> I think I only said hotwire like four times. :P
[22:36:23] <zeeshan> yea mitsus, beamers and toyotas
[22:36:29] <zeeshan> seem to be the ones using karman vortex
[22:36:39] <zeeshan> my ls engine used to use a cold wire
[22:36:41] <furrywolf> flap-based sensors are very outdated, and I don't know if they've been put on anything in 30 years...
[22:36:45] <zeeshan> my 240sx used a hot wire
[22:37:03] <renesis> ha, all the shit ive worked on is about that old
[22:37:09] <renesis> my newer shit just worked
[22:37:36] <furrywolf> I've never seen a vortex sensor... I've seen them for measuring flow in industrial plumbing, but never in a car.
[22:37:58] <zeeshan> theyre a pain in the ass
[22:38:09] <zeeshan> if you provide turbulent airflow
[22:38:12] <zeeshan> they go nuts
[22:38:22] <furrywolf> I know they make them, I've just never seen one. heh.
[22:38:33] <furrywolf> yeah, it seems like a finnicky design.
[22:39:15] <zeeshan> know the big problem with maf?
[22:39:16] <furrywolf> hrmm, how about a knock sensor? I bet you could get timing out of it.
[22:39:16] <zeeshan> vac leak
[22:39:18] <zeeshan> bam they got nuts
[22:39:23] <zeeshan> *go
[22:39:42] <renesis> http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/afm/afm[1].gif
[22:39:44] <renesis> haha 280z
[22:39:50] <Rab> Volvo changed from flap (K-Jet) to hot wire (Bosch L-Jetronic) in 1983, IIRC.
[22:39:56] <zeeshan> my understanding of knock sensors are they are tuned to resonate at a particular frequency
[22:40:13] <renesis> rab: yeah my volvo just worked until it blew head gasket
[22:40:14] <furrywolf> k-jet should DIE. every car with k-jet should be crushed, then burned, just to make sure no part of it ever operates again.
[22:40:18] <renesis> not an efi issue, heh
[22:40:25] <Rab> I fit an '84 engine into an '82 240, merging the wiring harnesses was interesting.
[22:40:52] <Rab> furrywolf, I know people who love k-jet, but my first-hand experience tends to agree.
[22:41:17] <renesis> i couldnt remember how the crx was done and then i remembered it had a carb
[22:41:19] <renesis> =\
[22:41:24] <Cromaglious> KJet 2.0, 2.2, and 2,4liter H4 vw bus/type 4, 914 engines were a fire waiting to happen
[22:41:27] <furrywolf> I've never seen a k-jetronic vehicle operating at even the level a dirty, gummed-up carb would provide.
[22:41:27] <zeeshan> i think crx is a map sensor
[22:41:29] <zeeshan> a lot of hondas are map
[22:41:38] <renesis> 50mpg factory! 35mpg driving it into the dirt!
[22:41:56] <renesis> zeeshan: i had an HF, it had a cvcc head
[22:42:11] <furrywolf> they're fucking ALWAYS lean, rich, hard to start, flooding, leaking, needing seals, needing cold start solenoids, failing emissions miserably, surging, stalling,...
[22:42:33] <renesis> the first time i had the valve cover off the first reaction was OH SHIT HEADS ON BACKWARDS, silly intake ports on the wrong side
[22:43:27] <furrywolf> needing stupid fuel regulator, needing pumps, needing hoses, needing o-rings, dumping fuel in the oil, dumping fuel on the engine, failing to provide full fuel flow, hesitating,...
[22:43:41] <furrywolf> I mean, is there any problem k-jetronic _doesn't_ always have?
[22:43:53] <Rab> furrywolf, that's normal operation. There are also awesome failure modes, eg when the system frontfires and slams the flap shut, breaking its stop and destroying normal operation with that system forevermore.
[22:44:02] <furrywolf> lol
[22:44:17] <renesis> cant you glue a new stop?!
[22:44:25] <furrywolf> actually, I think that is a backfire... out the exhaust is a frontfire...
[22:44:38] <renesis> wot
[22:45:01] <Rab> It's all pot metal, you would have to get really creative with some JB Weld or something. And the seat has to be pretty close to airtight.
[22:45:05] <furrywolf> renesis: it's not an external part that's broken. it's a part built into the fuel distributor. and other stuff would break too...
[22:45:43] <furrywolf> k-jet is by far the least reliable fuel system I've ever seen. it makes an old hit-and-miss engine look like mpfi...
[22:46:08] <Rab> furrywolf, your usage of backfire/frontfire is entirely novel to me.
[22:46:16] <renesis> k jet is 2nd bosch system?
[22:47:10] <furrywolf> renesis: k is the continuous injection system, where they used a vane to operate valves to meter fuel without the use of any electronics.
[22:47:20] * furrywolf googles on backfires
[22:47:25] <renesis> hmm weird
[22:47:43] <renesis> i thought 914 used 1st and 2nd bosche efi systems
[22:47:53] <furrywolf> mechanical fuel injection, no electronics at all.
[22:48:14] <renesis> but i think 914 used D and L, so skipped K
[22:48:16] <Rab> renesis, like this: http://s146.photobucket.com/user/smak101/media/fuel_dissy.gif.html
[22:48:47] <renesis> heh
[22:50:30] <furrywolf> wikipedia says backfire is in the intake, afterfire is in the exhaust
[22:50:45] <renesis> so D is analog electronics manifold pressure based, and L is that plus flap flow sensor
[22:50:58] <Rab> Only until they revert your edit. ;)
[22:52:04] <renesis> guys should i sell the totally reliable sportish toyota thing and buy a 914?
[22:52:10] <renesis> i have no place to work on a car
[22:52:16] <Rab> That does look like a long edit, though.
[22:52:30] <furrywolf> you're welcome to google it, just like I did. lol
[22:52:50] <renesis> fuck what wiki says a backfire is a car fart
[22:52:56] <renesis> it comes out the exhaust
[22:53:25] <furrywolf> no, a backfire is where the fire travels _back up the intake_.
[22:53:26] <renesis> intake backfire is just a noise that sounds like a backfire
[22:53:47] <renesis> that makes sense but youre still wrong
[22:53:48] <renesis> i decided
[22:53:49] <furrywolf> afterfire is when the exhaust, after the engine, re-fires. heh.
[22:53:51] <furrywolf> lol
[22:54:05] <furrywolf> best. argument. ever.
[22:55:07] * furrywolf will now use "that makes sense but youre still wrong" "i decided" to end arguments.
[22:55:39] <renesis> you will need to pay licensing fees
[22:55:53] <furrywolf> http://www.6crew.com/forum/showthread.php?21978-Tech-Info-Afterfire-vs-Backfire-%28Clearing-up-the-common-Misconception%29 seems to have a nice writeup on it
[22:56:04] <renesis> or after saying it you can say an sponsor slogan
[22:56:08] <renesis> like wesley willis
[22:56:46] <furrywolf> as a note, I've seen actual backfires plenty of times... including having to snuff out several burning carbs.
[22:57:06] <Rab> You never truly own a vehicle until you've set it on fire.
[22:57:29] <furrywolf> "quick, crank it again, so it sucks the flame back down before the filter catches" is standard response, but if that doesn't work, a towel or gloved hands are next.
[22:59:08] <renesis> or i could buy a 928
[22:59:20] <renesis> i will prob have to replace all the electrical things
[22:59:43] <renesis> and probably most of the mechanical things
[23:00:13] <renesis> need like a 2 parts car magazine in that parts cannon
[23:00:25] <furrywolf> if you want to replace all the electrical things, buy a jag.
[23:00:28] <furrywolf> lucas++
[23:00:40] <renesis> or i could buy a 914 and then just buy the wheels from a 928
[23:00:52] <renesis> why would i want to blow time and money on a jag
[23:00:59] <renesis> when youre done, you have a jag
[23:01:24] <furrywolf> you buy a jag because you want to replace every single part that involves electricity
[23:01:28] <renesis> http://www.928motorsports.com/identify/928-sdiagram.jpg
[23:01:48] <renesis> i wanna hug it and take it for walks in the park and roll around with it in the grass
[23:02:22] <renesis> and thats just standard with 80s luxury stuff
[23:02:24] * furrywolf googles for a page of lucas jokes
[23:02:29] <renesis> none of that shit works anymore
[23:02:55] <renesis> and lucas is prob so bad for flat 4 air cooling
[23:03:08] <furrywolf> http://www4.ncsu.edu/~mtmorris/index3.html
[23:04:05] <furrywolf> as a general rule, you can expect to find any vehicle with lucas electrics to have most things nonfunctional, and about half the wiring harness burnt.
[23:04:37] <renesis> yes but you dont understand
[23:04:58] <renesis> after fixing all the things, you have a v8 front engine porsche that looks crazy sexy
[23:05:08] <renesis> honestly a 924 would be more responsible
[23:05:25] <furrywolf> I've owned a couple german vehicles. I never will again.
[23:05:27] <renesis> and they have the 50/50 weight transaxle thing
[23:06:04] <renesis> heh, my dads 914 caught on fire
[23:06:28] <renesis> my brothers didnt tho!
[23:06:59] <renesis> or i can get another 280z
[23:07:22] <renesis> magical death trap
[23:07:52] <renesis> now i can afford one without rusty floorboards and black widows
[23:08:16] <renesis> i prob just buy a miata
[23:08:21] <renesis> =\
[23:09:34] <furrywolf> buy a subaru wrx. it's faster than all those and doesn't suck.
[23:20:56] <renesis> they break
[23:21:01] <renesis> i dont really want awd
[23:21:16] <renesis> i do want reference handling and interface
[23:23:02] <renesis> fuck
[23:23:16] <renesis> i wonder if its bad to ask a dead friends wife if you can buy his car
[23:23:35] <renesis> he has a black wrx
[23:24:54] <CaptHindsight> what is the appropriate amount to wait until it's ok to ask?
[23:25:07] <renesis> i dunno
[23:25:25] <CaptHindsight> few weeks?
[23:25:30] <renesis> maybe already sold, but i dont think they were hurting for money
[23:25:48] <renesis> well ceramony was not even two weeks ago
[23:26:07] <renesis> i would have to get her email from someone
[23:27:15] <CaptHindsight> wasn't this a Seinfeld episode?
[23:27:26] <furrywolf> it depends on how you word it. "now that that prick's gone, can I get his car?" won't go over well. "I've been thinking that if you need help clearning out his belongings, I'd be interested in purchasing his vehicle" might go over better.
[23:27:27] <renesis> with cars? i dont remember
[23:27:40] <renesis> we were both into driving
[23:28:14] <renesis> i would just ask if it wasnt sold already
[23:29:01] <CaptHindsight> roses are read violets are blue now that hes gone are you going to drive two?
[23:29:15] <furrywolf> lol
[23:29:21] <CaptHindsight> nah too halmark
[23:29:40] <renesis> if its just sitting there im sure my friend and the car would be happier if it was being used
[23:29:51] <renesis> and i dont think i would even have to convince her of that
[23:30:19] <renesis> i think he finally sold it tho
[23:33:41] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime