#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-02-15

[00:30:21] <witnit_> Is this the same as a regular A/B encoder with 5v? http://www.gagemall.co.kr/images/pdf/LinearGage.pdf
[00:30:38] <witnit_> something i can connect direct to an encoder input?
[00:31:17] <zeeshan> looks like it outputs square waves
[00:31:56] <witnit_> right
[00:31:58] <zeeshan> wow those are good for upto 590 ipm
[00:31:59] <zeeshan> nice
[00:31:59] <witnit_> so im good right?
[00:32:05] <zeeshan> just check
[00:32:07] <zeeshan> if its a 5v signal
[00:32:10] <witnit_> 90 phase difference, differential square wave
[00:32:10] <witnit_> differential square wave (RS-422A equivalent)
[00:32:10] <witnit_> (RS-422A equivalent)*
[00:32:16] <witnit_> was what i was looking at
[00:32:29] <witnit_> and was unsure if that was same as AB square
[00:33:03] <zeeshan> 90 degree phase difference
[00:33:07] <zeeshan> is a quadrature style encoder :)
[00:33:10] <zeeshan> so youre right
[00:33:23] <zeeshan> it looks like it operates on 5v
[00:40:10] <witnit_> hooray
[00:40:13] <witnit_> I want some
[00:40:46] <XXCoder> some 5v? sure (goes Emperior style lighning hands)
[00:41:14] <XXCoder> hopefully that charged you right up ;)
[00:41:22] <RyanS> ooo http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/pins-the-alternative-to-parallels
[00:42:12] <XXCoder> looks almost like huge 123 blocks
[00:43:02] <RyanS> 'built-in' parallels
[00:43:29] <MacGalempsy_> hey guys
[01:52:08] * zeeshan is looking at building an enclosure
[01:52:09] <zeeshan> http://www.toth-maschinenhandel.de/images/produkte/TN3/600_2028129288.jpg
[01:52:12] <zeeshan> this one looks so nice
[01:52:24] <Jymmm> http://cdn3.image.bored.com/thumbnails/dog-sign__big_no.jpg
[01:52:33] <zeeshan> lol
[02:12:51] <witnit_> look how they do the control panel
[02:12:53] <witnit_> http://www.nowakproducts.com/davenport/O10.jpg
[02:13:23] <witnit_> zeeshan, ^^full swing
[02:13:38] <zeeshan> oo thats nice
[02:14:11] <witnit_> keeps it "right there"
[02:14:17] <witnit_> you know how that is
[02:14:31] <zeeshan> i have a rolling cart
[02:14:32] <zeeshan> w/ my comp
[02:14:38] <witnit_> exactly
[02:14:41] <witnit_> one cord in the way
[02:14:45] <witnit_> and you have problems
[02:14:54] <zeeshan> yea its one umbilical going to it
[02:15:02] <zeeshan> but it serves as my tool cart too
[02:15:04] <witnit_> i have this huge box and bad floors :(
[02:15:34] <zeeshan> i was thinking of mounting the umbilical on the ceiling
[02:15:37] <zeeshan> so that it falls straight down
[02:15:45] <zeeshan> that way it doesnt get in the way
[02:15:54] <zeeshan> i agree, it is annoying :P
[02:24:40] <Deejay> moin
[06:11:33] * jthornton just woke up and thought it was Monday
[06:11:45] <Jymmm> It is.
[06:47:08] <marmite_> jupp
[06:47:09] <marmite_> it is
[09:58:30] <JT-Shop> brrrrr
[10:01:57] <furrywolf> I have a kerosene shop heater. you can have it if you pay shipping. :P
[10:02:55] <JT-Shop> I have a bullet heater too, but I heat the shop with wood
[10:04:12] <furrywolf> never heard one called that before...
[10:10:09] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop have you done pid on any of your spindles?
[10:10:35] <Tom_itx> looking into that for a learning experience on mine
[10:12:44] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, no, mine is a vfd driven by the gs2 component
[10:14:18] <furrywolf> mine's a single-phase capacitor-start motor. :(
[10:14:49] <JT-Shop> there is a bit of info on this page about spindles http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/index.html
[10:17:17] <Tom_itx> ok
[10:18:04] <furrywolf> hrmm, harbor freight doesn't seem to have a test indicator. so much for squaring my mill up today.
[10:18:28] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure i'd trust one of those from there
[10:19:23] <furrywolf> I don't think my crappy chinese mill will hold tolerances tighter than I could measure by eye... a finger indicator is just a formality. heh.
[10:22:38] <furrywolf> yay, more broken web design. a search on hf's website I did returns three pages. clicking to the next page says there's no results for your search.
[10:22:39] * JT-Shop pokes at the fire again
[10:23:36] <Tom_itx> fire up the smelter
[10:24:10] <furrywolf> oh well, looks like I'm ordering my indicator online. around here, if it's not available at ace hardware or harbor freight, you're ordering online. heh.
[10:25:18] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/images/3-D%20Printing/JT%20Kossel/JT%20Kossel%20Frame%2001.JPG
[10:25:43] <JT-Shop> the furnace would warm it up guick in here
[10:25:48] <JT-Shop> quick
[10:26:24] <Tom_itx> goin with a delta?
[10:26:54] <JT-Shop> thinking about it
[10:27:32] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure how well those work in comparison to the others
[10:27:37] <JT-Shop> seems to be the simple design when you look at them
[10:27:49] <Tom_itx> the 2nd gen one probably works good
[10:27:56] <Tom_itx> yeah
[10:28:17] <Tom_itx> the other one isn't complicated, just alot of belt
[10:29:01] <furrywolf> so, for the same price, should I pick up a brand new chinese indicator, or a beat up starrett? I'm leaning towards the latter...
[10:29:08] <JT-Shop> yea the core xy is a bit more complicated
[10:29:21] <Tom_itx> you like a challenge...
[10:29:49] <JT-Shop> I'm still waiting on my steppers to show up
[10:30:01] <Tom_itx> where'd you get em?
[10:30:44] <JT-Shop> the link you gave me
[10:30:59] <Tom_itx> well at least you beat their new year stall
[10:31:39] <JT-Shop> yea
[10:31:50] <JT-Shop> I need a nema 17 solid model
[10:31:57] <Tom_itx> i'm waiting on some relays from there
[10:32:06] <Tom_itx> double stack
[10:32:35] <JT-Shop> lol I forgot
[10:32:49] <Tom_itx> http://grabcad.com/library/stepper-motor-nema-17
[10:32:54] <Tom_itx> solidworks..
[10:33:56] <JT-Shop> you have to register to d/l
[10:34:02] <Tom_itx> crap
[10:34:08] <Tom_itx> lemme find another one
[10:34:16] <JT-Shop> it says they shipped on 2/4
[10:34:33] <Tom_itx> NY starts the 19th
[10:35:16] <Tom_itx> http://www.quicksilvercontrols.com/SP/CAD/CAD.html
[10:35:47] <Tom_itx> those mostly look like servo
[10:36:14] <JT-Shop> yea
[10:36:50] <Tom_itx> http://www.linengineering.com/stepper-motors/4018.aspx
[10:36:57] <JT-Shop> says they are 42 x 42 x 48
[10:37:19] <Tom_itx> the hole pattern would be the same
[10:37:28] <Tom_itx> you can fiddle with the length
[10:37:58] <Tom_itx> no cad on the last link
[10:38:04] <_methods> you till need nema17 model?
[10:38:21] <_methods> i think i have one i can put on dropbox for you if you don't want to login anywhere
[10:39:18] <JT-Shop> I might have one
[10:39:23] <_methods> what format you want?
[10:39:26] <Tom_itx> https://www.inventables.com/technologies/stepper-motor-nema-17
[10:39:31] <Tom_itx> can you import .step?
[10:39:35] <JT-Shop> solidworks if you have it
[10:39:44] <JT-Shop> sw can import most formats
[10:39:58] <Tom_itx> ^^ there's one
[10:39:58] <_methods> i got sldprt if you need it
[10:40:11] <JT-Shop> sldprt is good
[10:40:14] <_methods> Tom_itx got ya i guess
[10:40:36] <_methods> if not let me know i have nema17 and nema23 models
[10:43:37] <Tom_itx> http://my.solidworks.com/reader/3dccparts/catalogid%253D171%2526id%253D553243
[10:44:03] * furrywolf buys a new shars, hoping it's at least marginally better than the ones shipped straight from china
[10:44:09] <Tom_itx> :( login req
[10:45:07] <JT-Shop> _methods, if you have a sldprt of a 17 that would be great
[10:45:13] <_methods> yeah i got ya one sec
[10:45:52] <JT-Shop> ok thanks
[10:47:58] <furrywolf> bbl, laundry and playing with mill
[10:48:32] <_methods> sorry had to run upstairs to my drafting computer
[10:48:39] <_methods> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23537674/User%20Library-stepper-motor-nema17-fl42sth47-1684A-01.SLDPRT
[10:48:42] <_methods> there ya go
[10:48:52] <_methods> you want nema23 too?
[10:49:10] <JT-Shop> sure
[10:50:21] <_methods> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23537674/Lin-5718L%20NEMA%2023%20Stepper.sldprt
[10:50:27] <_methods> there ya go
[10:50:49] <PetefromTn_> oooooohh
[10:52:01] <JT-Shop> thanks
[10:52:19] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, I see a design flaw with my frame...
[10:52:35] <Tom_itx> how so?
[10:53:13] <JT-Shop> _methods the 17 would not open
[10:53:35] <JT-Shop> my bracket is wrong it puts the sides in the wrong place
[10:53:47] <_methods> the nema17 won't open?
[10:54:06] <JT-Shop> it says contact tech support
[10:54:11] <_methods> hmm
[10:54:13] <_methods> weird
[10:54:29] <JT-Shop> what version are you using?
[10:54:34] <_methods> 2015
[10:54:42] <_methods> that might be a problem lol
[10:54:44] <Tom_itx> save it as iges
[10:54:50] <JT-Shop> oh I was using 2014
[10:54:52] <_methods> i can't save it down to 2014
[10:55:01] <Tom_itx> iges will work
[10:55:04] <JT-Shop> I can open it up in 15 and save it as an iges
[10:55:08] <_methods> k
[10:55:34] <JT-Shop> I can't use 15 if I want to machine the parts as onecnc won't open a 15 sw file
[10:55:57] <Tom_itx> always some sort of hitch...
[10:58:38] <JT-Shop> tracking says my steppers have departed Suzhou sorting center LOL
[10:58:56] <Tom_itx> they're very slow updating that information
[10:59:05] <Tom_itx> you may only get 1 or 2 updates
[10:59:18] <Tom_itx> next time you see it probably will be in the US
[10:59:34] <Tom_itx> mine sat in chicago for a week
[11:01:41] <JT-Shop> it only shows tracking while in China
[11:02:01] <Tom_itx> usps should show it
[11:02:39] <t12> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVuKp5M3de8
[11:03:16] <JT-Shop> sure enough usps shows tracking
[11:03:43] <JT-Shop> looks like it is in New York
[11:03:49] <Tom_itx> yay!
[11:40:47] <PetefromTn_> you can take this cold and shove it where the sun don't shine Mr. Winter... LOL
[11:41:30] <_methods> no doubt
[11:42:17] <JT-Shop> 4-6 inches of snow expected here tonight
[11:42:38] <PetefromTn_> I REALLY REALLY gotta get this house sold and move the hell back to Florida.. it was -3 here with wind chill this morning!!
[11:43:11] <_methods> um yeah F that
[11:43:18] <_methods> it's 30 here and i'm about to quit
[11:43:28] <PetefromTn_> they are saying we should be getting snow here tomorrow sometime
[11:47:41] <_methods> i got a turkey on the egg right now
[11:47:56] <_methods> 2 hours left
[11:53:15] <JT-Shop> the barbie got to 700F last night when the grease caught on fire
[11:53:24] <JT-Shop> that will make you pucker upu
[11:53:25] <JT-Shop> up
[11:55:34] <_methods> yeah that will melt some stuff
[11:56:14] <JT-Shop> I was only gone about 3 minutes...
[11:56:49] <Tom_itx> good the tank didn't get that hot..
[11:57:16] <JT-Shop> yea, I threw the dog water on it after shutting the burners off and moving the meat
[11:57:32] <_methods> heheh
[11:57:33] <JT-Shop> slammed the lid and waited for the super heated steam to slow down
[11:57:41] <JT-Shop> steaks came out great
[11:57:50] <Tom_itx> remember that recipe :)
[11:58:20] <JT-Shop> I think I have the layout right now http://gnipsel.com/images/3-D%20Printing/JT%20Kossel/JT%20Kossel%20Frame%2001%20Rev%202.JPG
[11:59:30] <Tom_itx> what linux app will open .docx?
[11:59:33] <PetefromTn_> dog water?
[11:59:38] * JT-Shop wanders inside for a short nap
[11:59:52] <JT-Shop> yea the water dish for the dog, only water handy
[12:00:01] <_methods> libre office
[12:00:06] <_methods> or whatever they call it now
[12:00:10] <_methods> open office
[12:03:25] <Rab> Yeah, LibreOffice...Koffice as well.
[12:04:50] <PetefromTn_> is it a bad thing if I actually like my kids favorite cartoon adventure time?
[12:05:57] <Rab> Haha, it has its moments for a cartoon created by stoners for stoners.
[12:06:20] <Rab> (Maybe that's all cartoons.)
[12:06:26] <PetefromTn_> it is kinda funny sometimes
[12:07:24] <PetefromTn_> I could imagine the writers sitting around stoned writing it tho it is REALLY WIERD
[12:09:43] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4892668333.html...
[12:10:05] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4892668333.html wonder if this is useful for ANYTHING?
[12:10:39] <XXCoder1> yes
[12:10:44] <XXCoder1> it keeps dust off surface
[12:10:48] <XXCoder1> some of surface.
[12:11:32] <tjtr33> PetefromTn_, love the buttons, your fingers wont get lost finding them in the bottom of those cones?
[12:11:48] <tjtr33> PetefromTn_, you know its a mechanical duplicator device
[12:12:05] <Rab> PetefromTn_, not since the development of CNC I'm afraid. I'll bet it was a game-changer in 1955.
[12:12:17] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know what it is..
[12:12:23] <tjtr33> its like a touch probe.... hmm wonder if you could linuxcnc up a tracer
[12:12:39] <PetefromTn_> just wondered if there is anything useful for ANYTHING... LOL
[12:12:41] <XXCoder1> good for cnc history place I guess
[12:12:44] <XXCoder1> assuming one exists
[12:12:46] <tjtr33> just using the probe routines
[12:13:16] <Rab> I've seen electronic tracer systems. You would probably want a 3D probe.
[12:13:22] <tjtr33> its auto-reverse engineering, no cad or lasers needed. helen keller follow the leader
[12:13:59] <tjtr33> but it was 2d, then you lowered the knee and ran again
[12:14:05] <Rab> Honestly you would probably rather capture offline, clean up and edit the toolpath, and run as a job, rather than do live tracing.
[12:14:14] <tjtr33> yah
[12:14:44] <Rab> Rigging the mill up for hydraulic control would be nightmarish, I wonder what could go wrong with that setup.
[12:16:23] <Rab> Those sure are some classy nameplates in the ad.
[12:17:02] <tjtr33> so the probe tip moved and opens a port to drive the respective axis. easy to dupe in HAL , might be fun, make sand cast forms from old parts
[12:18:45] <tjtr33> dont use hydraulis at all, nice clean electric probe and hal comps to jog the axis
[12:18:54] <furrywolf> probably could build one using three power steering gearboxes.
[12:19:35] <Rab> I wonder how to reuse the original probe. Might be able to use a set of pressure transducers for a proportional reading from compressed air.
[12:20:36] <Rab> Or, rig the probe directly to a 6dof pointing device: http://www.3dconnexion.com/products/spacemouse/spacenavigator.html
[12:21:24] <tjtr33> bet the probe pushes a pin that is a spool valve, chd the pin to make a contact. write the game style 'fill' routin that finds the included shape at that level
[12:21:39] <furrywolf> going to compressed air is asking for problems... if you really want to use the probe, find a way to hide direct pressure sensors in it somehow.
[12:22:42] <tjtr33> no air no oil just use a tipping electrical probe that returns the trip direction, then command your normal drives, stepper or servo
[12:23:42] <furrywolf> I've never taken one apart, but it must have either very tiny valves, or a very large lever... if there's enough travel, even simple pots might work.
[12:24:17] <Rab> Apparently the full True Trace setup was typically a double-headed mill: http://www.lislesurplus.com/2/28-tracer-mill-bridgeport-tru-trace-3DA-tra/picture-1.jpg
[12:24:31] <tjtr33> yes one [probes one cuts
[12:25:12] <Rab> Looks like two copies at once to me.
[12:25:16] <tjtr33> you cut (say) right till you bump the trip.
[12:25:31] <tjtr33> one is the model the other is the stock being cut
[12:25:43] <PetefromTn_> LOL I was just kidding guys..
[12:26:18] <Rab> Wonder if they could be rigged up to do scaling.
[12:26:23] <Rab> The Devil's Pantograph.
[12:26:42] <furrywolf> you could always rig up a small hydraulic pump and just screw pressure transducers into all the ports.
[12:27:15] <tjtr33> if it ran by numbers, you can scale rotate and translate
[12:27:17] <Rab> Yeah, that would work without modifying the priceless True Trace probe.
[12:28:38] <furrywolf> of course, there's plans for DIY touch probes that could be built in a lot less time and with a lot less money than a hydraulic supply and transducers. :)
[12:29:40] <XXCoder1> two wow
[12:32:02] <tjtr33> lathe tracers too http://www.mimiktracer.com/
[12:34:04] <tjtr33> yeah they use spool valves like in (Moog or Pegasus hydraulics ) "When the stylus comes in contact with the template it moves spools within the valve."
[13:07:07] <furrywolf> heh, looking at the list of mythbusters episodes... the latest is "Can you drift into a parallel parking space without hitting the adjacent cars or the curb?". I don't need to watch it to know the answer to that, because I've seen it done.
[13:08:34] <furrywolf> care of a friend that got his license taken away for too many speeding tickets. :)
[13:09:33] <furrywolf> now his wife gets to drive him everywhere, and will for a couple more years still...
[13:14:29] <XXCoder1> ow
[13:17:02] <XXCoder1> interesting http://hackaday.com/2015/02/14/fixing-a-toyota-camry-hybrid-battery-for-under-ten-dollars/
[13:22:59] <furrywolf> should have used tinned busbars.
[13:24:11] <furrywolf> my nife bank came with half tinned busbars and half bare copper... guess which half I'll need to hit with a wire brush when I put it back together? heh
[13:24:51] <XXCoder1> vingear, bush, base
[13:24:58] <XXCoder1> *brush
[13:25:07] <furrywolf> I don't want acid anywhere near them without a face shield.
[13:25:40] <XXCoder1> vingear isnt very acidic but have to really clear em out so it dont keep corrading
[13:25:52] <XXCoder1> baking soda is really powerful base
[13:26:02] <furrywolf> they'll keep corroding anyway. I just need to clean some of it off around the terminals. heh.
[13:26:11] <XXCoder1> thats bit more tough
[13:26:33] <furrywolf> keep in mind these are flooded batteries, happily gassing KOH bubbles out onto the busbars...
[13:27:13] <XXCoder1> lol hacks http://hackaday.com/2015/02/15/home-brew-vibration-cleaner-leaves-your-sla-prints-squeaky-clean/
[13:27:54] <furrywolf> I have a small ultrasonic cleaner, and want a larger one.
[13:28:18] <XXCoder1> disk sander apparently works
[13:28:49] <furrywolf> yes, for about ten minutes. encasing it in foam is a bad idea. :P
[13:31:08] <XXCoder1> oh its for print cleaning not for batteries
[13:32:00] <furrywolf> ...
[13:32:03] <furrywolf> lol?
[13:32:37] <CaptHindsight> why are so many people buying that crappy Form1? SLA with DLP or LCD is so much faster
[13:32:52] <furrywolf> bbl, need to unload yard sale crap from my van.
[13:33:07] <CaptHindsight> and now Form1 is not letting users adjust the print rates and laser output power
[13:34:27] <CaptHindsight> 20-minute alcohol bath?! you just need a quick soak or washdown
[13:35:57] <CaptHindsight> a cheapo ultrasonic bath costs the same as a sander
[13:36:20] <XXCoder1> but if already own one
[13:36:30] <XXCoder1> cost is literal zero
[13:36:53] <XXCoder1> I do want to own ultrasonic cleaner though
[13:37:05] <CaptHindsight> but now you have wasted a baking pan
[13:37:23] <CaptHindsight> and a sander
[13:37:25] <XXCoder1> why? its still alum pan
[13:37:30] <XXCoder1> sander still sander
[13:37:39] <CaptHindsight> covered in foam
[13:37:55] <CaptHindsight> remind me not to eat your baked goods :)
[13:38:22] <XXCoder1> actually can make mold (by using plast sheets tape and well sander itself) foam up, clean out
[13:38:26] <XXCoder1> its now reusable
[13:38:34] <XXCoder1> I would not use kitchen pan actually
[13:38:43] <XXCoder1> just go to value vallage get pan for less than $1
[13:39:03] <CaptHindsight> why not make a pan?
[13:39:15] <CaptHindsight> why always spending money? :)
[13:39:22] <XXCoder1> lol
[13:39:35] <CaptHindsight> it dosn't grow on tress yah know
[13:40:26] <XXCoder1> that seal is pretty good
[13:40:36] <XXCoder1> consiering just clips and rubber lol
[13:41:30] <XXCoder1> roughly same volume http://www.amazon.com/Ivation-IVUC96S-Ultrasonic-Adjustable-Auto-Shut-off/dp/B00E5PCX1A/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_2_2
[13:49:01] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9eAiy0IGBI jump to 1:24, not to far off a guess from 1930
[14:05:18] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, http://gnipsel.com/images/3-D%20Printing/JT%20Kossel/JT%20Kossel%20Frame%2002.JPG
[14:05:26] <JT-Shop> and tjb1 ^^
[14:17:11] <tjb1> JT-Shop: what is your idea for motors and idlers?
[14:17:22] <furrywolf> I love my ultrasonic cleaner. You dump in greasy, rusty, dirty crap, and it comes out shiny.
[14:17:37] <furrywolf> and just using soap, no solvents.
[14:17:57] <renesis> i need one of those for my dishes
[14:18:19] <furrywolf> if your dishes are rusty, may I suggest switching to stainless and/or keeping them seasoned? :P
[14:18:46] <furrywolf> also, they have them. they're called "dishwashers".
[14:19:29] <ReadError> wives?
[14:19:46] <furrywolf> ...no
[14:19:58] <JT-Shop> tjb1, I'm thinking of putting the motors on top and put the idler in the bottom stop for the linear rail
[14:20:12] <JT-Shop> I still have the inside bracket to draw for the stepper
[14:20:33] <JT-Shop> I think I have the proportions close now
[14:21:09] <furrywolf> hrmm, I should have put up a larger load. today is very sunny.
[14:21:19] <furrywolf> I love my washerdryer, but it sure does use a lot of power. heh.
[14:21:48] <renesis> my dishes arent rusty
[14:21:55] <renesis> theyre just dirty
[14:22:00] <renesis> 00:04:03 < ReadError> wives?
[14:22:05] <renesis> yeah seriously
[14:22:12] * furrywolf points renesis to the ":P", indicating humor
[14:22:16] <JT-Shop> dang the best price for a set of hiwin mgn-12h 400mm is $300
[14:22:48] <renesis> my place wouldnt fit a dishwasher
[14:22:56] <renesis> i dont even have double sink
[14:23:26] <furrywolf> get a portable one. that's what I have. it's a freestanding thing with a butcherboard countertop square on top, and screws to the kitchen sink faucet to use it.
[14:23:48] <renesis> wouldnt fit
[14:23:59] <renesis> i would have to run the line like across the stove
[14:24:17] <furrywolf> it has wheels. you roll it out of the way, then roll it over to the sink to use it.
[14:24:30] <JT-Shop> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Sets-400mm-Linear-Bearing-MR12-MGN12C-HIWIN-Kossel-Reprap-3D-Printer-US-Ship-/181228469450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a320efcca
[14:24:30] <furrywolf> you also can get countertop dishwashers, if you have very few dishes.
[14:24:49] <JT-Shop> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400mm-linear-rail-with-MGN12H-size-Carriage-3-sets-for-Mini-Kossel-3D-Printer-/201259532835?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edc00c223
[14:25:40] <JT-Shop> PLEASE NOTE: These are low cost Chinese made linear recirculating ball carriages and rails, please accept they will not be as smooth as the NSK/Thomson/HIWIN units. Each unit is checked prior to shipping to ensure they are sufficiently smooth for building a Kossel Mini 3D printer without any issues.
[14:25:56] <furrywolf> http://www.livingdirect.com/Koldfront-6-Place-Setting-Countertop-Dishwasher-Black-PDW60EB/PDW60EB,default,pd.html?mtcpromotion=PLA%3EHome_Appliances%3EDishwashers%3ECountertop%3EPDW60EB&src=SHOPPING&kpid=PDW60EB&CAWELAID=120128520000036489&CAGPSPN=pla&kpid=PDW60EB&gclid=CLCKrsrf5MMCFUiEfgodkqoAlg like that. You can get even smaller ones, but I just clicked a random google result.
[14:31:34] <JT-Shop> tjb1, you familiar with kbell enterprises in St Louis?
[14:32:37] <CaptHindsight> <$100 version http://www.rubbermaid.com/Assets/images/Product/2212-xlarge.jpg + https://dcmcmillen.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/sprinkler1.jpg
[14:33:05] <furrywolf> lol
[14:34:57] <renesis> actually that plus a dish drying rack seems pretty reasonable
[14:35:24] <renesis> $20 hydro pump, heh
[14:35:31] <CaptHindsight> submitting it to hack-a-day as we speak
[14:36:25] <CaptHindsight> with 3d printed dish reack
[14:36:29] <CaptHindsight> rack
[14:37:38] <furrywolf> lol
[14:38:40] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/celf-centering-vise-for-milling-drilling-set-up-etc-bridgeport-/231450396116 hrmm, do I need a home-made vise for my chinese mill?
[14:39:08] <Rab> JT-Shop, seems like the rotating mass of the motors would cause less vibration of the frame from the fixed base, rather than up top.
[14:39:44] <furrywolf> renesis: also, if you want to save space, I can confirm the combo washer/dryers work just fine, even off 110v power.
[14:40:18] <renesis> not happening, me or the landlord wont pay for that
[14:41:20] <renesis> fuck i gotta do laundry
[14:41:37] <furrywolf> you put clothes in, add soap, press two buttons, and 2.5-4.5 hours later (the 110v models aren't the fastest drying...) you have clean and dry clothes.
[14:41:50] <renesis> some girl in my classes all excited to get out of the dorms
[14:42:11] <renesis> im like, you got meal plan, washers and dryers, how can you comaplain
[14:42:50] <furrywolf> meh, even well-used name-brand vises are a lot more than I can afford. probably going to get more chinese products.
[14:43:58] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bridgeport-Milling-Machine-Vise-6-Wide-/291346676414 that's probably an ok deal, but it looks too large for my machine.
[14:44:32] <renesis> might buy sherline vises for my thing
[14:44:34] <jdh> how big?
[14:44:51] <renesis> the small toolmakers vise i have for it is too big
[14:44:51] <CaptHindsight> http://www.squeegi.com/video.php?v=fb958aa6-eb6f-11e0-b88f-00259002621a Ronco Shower and Blow Dryer in a Briefcase
[14:45:02] <furrywolf> mine or renesis's?
[14:45:14] <furrywolf> I have a sherline vise on my sherline... it's little.
[14:45:17] <jdh> yes
[14:46:03] <furrywolf> I wouldn't suggest it on anything much larger.
[14:46:34] <furrywolf> jdh: are you asking how big mine is or how big renesis's is?
[14:48:08] <renesis> i bet mine is bigger than furrywolfs
[14:49:23] <JT-Shop> Rab, interesting thought
[14:49:50] <JT-Shop> I'm thinking the shorter the belt the better... having belts on the plasma table
[14:54:48] <zeeshan> T16L250V isn't a damn common fuse
[14:54:49] <zeeshan> :/
[14:55:06] <_methods> wow i just had to use a cold chisel as a drift key
[14:55:17] * _methods needs to find or buy a new drift key
[14:56:05] <zeeshan> make one
[14:56:06] <zeeshan> :D
[14:56:40] <_methods> i did with a cold chisel lol
[14:58:44] <furrywolf> I had to drop my drawbar down the spindle and hammer on it the other day. unacceptable. will pick up some cold-rolled rod for next time.
[14:59:01] <zeeshan> wut
[14:59:49] <renesis> sometimes shit gets stuck yo
[15:00:07] <renesis> i use the black side of the plastic hammer first
[15:00:21] <furrywolf> I used my _threaded_ drawbar as a hammering aid. that damages the threads. hence the picking up of a piece of rod to use next time.
[15:00:25] * renesis try medium hammer solution before big
[15:00:28] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0034.3129/486-1228-ND/639763
[15:00:31] <zeeshan> is this a common fuse?
[15:00:33] <XXCoder1> furrywolf: I always use deadblow hammer to loosen em from spidle at work
[15:00:36] <XXCoder1> ever time
[15:00:53] <renesis> zeeshan: i dont see why not?
[15:01:03] <XXCoder1> just loosen a little, deadblow from top, remove em then loosen all way to remove chuck
[15:01:08] <zeeshan> doesn't look like something you can pick up at the local store
[15:01:18] <renesis> the fuse you want is never available
[15:01:26] <furrywolf> XXCoder1: no, not using the drawbar on a part the drawbar threads into. using it on a standard tapered shank with a tang, no threads.
[15:01:27] <renesis> this is a general rule in electronics
[15:01:38] <zeeshan> lol
[15:01:45] <XXCoder1> ahh
[15:02:09] <renesis> most stores wont stock every fuse in every size ever, because store isnt a fuse warehouse
[15:02:21] <zeeshan> then its not a common fuse
[15:02:33] <zeeshan> i can get cc and class j fuses like at 29083210 places
[15:02:46] <renesis> i dunno man 'common' kind of depends on your fuse and your local sources of fuses
[15:03:03] <jdh> not much here. home stores or auto stores maybe
[15:03:09] <furrywolf> I hammer on mine to loosen the things it threads into every time... but it's a very bad thing to hammer its threaded end against a tang.
[15:03:13] <renesis> ive had trouble finding 5x20 mm in 1.5A
[15:03:27] <jdh> use a 5 A instead
[15:03:31] <renesis> ikr
[15:03:47] <XXCoder1> indee
[15:04:14] <renesis> zeeshan: electronics come from the internet, you dont live in china, hong kong, or taiwan
[15:04:30] <jdh> I wonder if radio shack sold fuses
[15:04:54] <XXCoder1> yeah internet land is found at 2 places, north of north pole and south of south pole.
[15:04:54] <renesis> 5x20 is going to have a lot less selection than the 1/4" deals or automotive at local places
[15:05:04] <renesis> because 5x20 is for electronics geeks
[15:05:19] <furrywolf> radioshack has a decent selection
[15:05:22] <renesis> jdh: they did
[15:07:38] <renesis> zeeshan: are you asking if that type of fuse package is common?
[15:08:22] <renesis> 5x20 mm is common, its what you put in IEC input module fuse boxes
[15:08:31] <zeeshan> yea
[15:08:39] <renesis> its a normal fuse
[15:09:01] <renesis> 1/4" fuses are huge and the shit you mentioned is just goofy big
[15:09:15] <renesis> 5x20 mm is kind of normal
[15:09:22] <zeeshan> to me cc fuses are normal
[15:09:32] <zeeshan> i guess idont really work with dinky electronics :P
[15:09:55] <renesis> no just big retarded electronics
[15:10:22] <zeeshan> no, just power distribution
[15:10:27] <zeeshan> cc is on the smaller end of fuses in that context
[15:10:45] <renesis> so its on the smaller end of big retarded electronics
[15:10:55] <zeeshan> do you even know what electronics means
[15:11:10] <zeeshan> oh nm
[15:11:22] <zeeshan> i forgot you relays are contactors to you
[15:11:24] <zeeshan> =D
[15:11:37] <renesis> contactors are a type of relay
[15:11:43] <renesis> not all relays are contactors
[15:11:44] <XXCoder1> contractor contactors
[15:11:48] <zeeshan> and contactors and relays
[15:11:50] <zeeshan> are english to you
[15:11:51] <zeeshan> i forgot!
[15:12:33] <renesis> dont even know where youre going with that
[15:12:56] <zeeshan> some power distribution uses electronics yea
[15:13:00] <renesis> a contactor is a lot more a relay than a solid state relay is a relay
[15:13:03] <XXCoder1> no idea, my commet was just silly
[15:13:22] <zeeshan> that doesn't make fuses mean for power distributionit "
[15:13:24] <renesis> no i mean zeeshan noting that were speaking english
[15:13:24] <zeeshan> as
[15:13:26] <zeeshan> " on the smaller end of big retarded electronics"
[15:13:35] <renesis> sure it does
[15:13:46] <zeeshan> the only thing retarded is you
[15:13:53] <zeeshan> go back to your chem hw :P
[15:14:02] <renesis> if youre calling electronics 'dinky electronics' and electrical 'big retarded electronics'
[15:14:14] <JT-Shop> got a bit more drawn up http://gnipsel.com/images/3-D%20Printing/JT%20Kossel/JT%20Kossel%20Frame%2003.JPG
[15:14:29] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: 3d printer?
[15:14:30] <renesis> man gettin all personal
[15:15:09] <JT-Shop> yea
[15:15:36] <renesis> and todays homework is calc
[15:16:17] <zeeshan> ive never seen the kossel before
[15:16:20] <zeeshan> that is a cool design
[15:17:25] <JT-Shop> the challenge is to make it without a printer to print the parts LOL
[15:17:39] <zeeshan> you have enough cnc machines :-)
[15:17:57] <zeeshan> the other day when my trigger wheel was made wrong
[15:18:09] <zeeshan> i was like "Damn it i have to wait another week to get another one cut on the waterjet"
[15:18:14] <zeeshan> then i realized i have a cnc mill
[15:18:15] <zeeshan> :-)
[15:18:15] * furrywolf sorta remembers some calc...
[15:18:20] <XXCoder1> kessel run in 12 parsics
[15:18:44] <XXCoder1> zeeshan: exactly you need cnc machine to make another
[15:18:50] <XXCoder1> im trying to start from bare lol
[15:18:59] <XXCoder1> drill press and table saw thats ut
[15:19:40] <furrywolf> you can pick up a cheap ($40-ish new) xy table for your drill press, if you need any basic machining tasks.
[15:19:59] <zeeshan> i wouldnt be using a drill press to mill
[15:20:18] <furrywolf> I mean just for the construction of the cnc machine.
[15:20:48] <renesis> i dont think you need a cnc mill to make a mill
[15:20:50] <XXCoder1> yea thats what I always suspected - first drill press, drill with xy, mill machine, automatic manual mill, cnc mill, cnc router
[15:20:55] * JT-Shop should be assembling dual fills
[15:20:56] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-4-Cross-Drill-Press-Vise-X-Y-Clamp-Machine-Slide-Metal-Milling-2-Way-HD-/271595016820 like that
[15:21:07] <renesis> manual machines could do it
[15:21:22] <XXCoder1> not bad actually
[15:21:35] <XXCoder1> I need to make wood parts though
[15:21:48] <XXCoder1> and well I forgot almost all skills from hs school lol
[15:22:11] <furrywolf> I have one of those cheapo xy tables... they're total, utter crap. but they will cut slots, etc.
[15:22:11] <XXCoder1> ill keep it in mind though :)
[15:22:21] <renesis> heh, the wheel for the x looks a bit inconvenient
[15:22:30] <zeeshan> they'll also pull out your morse taper
[15:22:30] <XXCoder1> renesis: look other side
[15:22:31] <zeeshan> :-)
[15:22:44] <furrywolf> they have no form of antibacklash of any kind, and you have about an eighth inch of backlash, between plain nuts, and the shafts just held in by c-clips with plenty of room.
[15:23:28] <XXCoder1> slightly bigger http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-5-Cross-Drill-Press-Vise-X-Y-Clamp-Machine-Slide-Metal-Milling-2-Way-HD/271595032748?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28810%26meid%3Dd3f9b78e892247318fb3da2374ce89fc%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D271595016820&rt=nc
[15:25:14] <furrywolf> that one looks like it might have bearings and gibs, and suck less than mine.
[15:25:15] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop looks like you're gettin there
[15:25:39] <Tom_itx> you might consider the belt lengths you have readily available on that too
[15:27:17] <JT-Shop> I think you can get some pretty long lengths of gs2 belting
[15:27:41] <JT-Shop> but moving the idler up to just below the end of the linear will shorten it some
[15:27:45] <Tom_itx> they have them available for the delta bots somewhere
[15:27:52] <Tom_itx> i'm sure you can source it yourself
[15:28:27] <JT-Shop> the belt will be 900mm instead of 1200mm
[15:28:30] <Tom_itx> probably with the idlers etc too
[15:30:06] <JT-Shop> wow when I open one of the stl parts up in SW it is 10 times too big I think
[15:30:33] <XXCoder1> that or all rest oif is is 1/10 ;)
[15:31:26] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: have you made a lot of flanges?
[15:31:29] <zeeshan> on your mill
[15:32:53] <JT-Shop> flanges?
[15:33:08] <zeeshan> http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/vibtif1431_v1.jpg
[15:33:10] <XXCoder1> had to google it too lol
[15:33:21] <zeeshan> thinks similar to that geometry
[15:33:37] <zeeshan> http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.turbo-flanges.com/images/LS1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.turbo-flanges.com/product_info.php?products_id%3D36&h=480&w=640&tbnid=w3DXnqgOIbScVM:&zoom=1&docid=lz042qop5Rnh1M&ei=0QvhVNzRCcGxyASeiIHwAQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CBsQMygAMAA
[15:33:39] <zeeshan> er
[15:33:42] <zeeshan> http://www.turbo-flanges.com/images/LS1.jpg
[15:34:27] <JT-Shop> I've made parts similar to those but not for autos
[15:34:42] <zeeshan> in the rectangular case
[15:34:44] <zeeshan> whats the best way to hold it?
[15:34:53] <zeeshan> you have to machine both outside and inside
[15:35:01] <zeeshan> say you're starting with flatbar
[15:35:06] <zeeshan> i feel like im doing it wrong
[15:35:33] <JT-Shop> drill the holes then bolt it onto a sacrificial aluminum bar
[15:35:36] <Tom_itx> drill the holes first and use them for clamps
[15:35:40] <Tom_itx> :)
[15:35:44] <Tom_itx> great minds...
[15:35:53] <zeeshan> how do you align it
[15:35:55] <JT-Shop> that way you can cut the outside profile
[15:35:59] <zeeshan> w/ the fixture
[15:36:19] <Tom_itx> the same way you align it in the model?
[15:36:29] <JT-Shop> on the one with 4 I would mill some bosses that fit the large holes
[15:36:30] <Tom_itx> index off one of the holding holes
[15:37:04] <zeeshan> so then you'd need to drill and ream
[15:37:05] <zeeshan> the holes
[15:37:07] <furrywolf> a bit of drill rod the same size as one of the holes, or a coaxial indicator, or find a couple edges...
[15:37:08] <zeeshan> so you can fix it
[15:37:13] <JT-Shop> I make my fixtures to some repeatable dimension from the left and rear edge
[15:37:13] <zeeshan> *fit it
[15:37:27] <zeeshan> ah i see
[15:37:44] <Tom_itx> dowel pin the edge of the mateial and define it in your cad model
[15:37:52] <zeeshan> if you put dowel to the edge
[15:37:54] <zeeshan> you cant machine it
[15:37:59] <zeeshan> without moving em
[15:38:01] <JT-Shop> yup
[15:38:27] <zeeshan> ive seen people do this in one setup
[15:38:35] <zeeshan> i can't recall how :P
[15:38:50] <XXCoder1> clamo change without moving part?
[15:38:53] <XXCoder1> clamps
[15:38:58] <Tom_itx> waterjet? :)
[15:39:01] <zeeshan> yea maybe it was like that
[15:39:04] <zeeshan> no Tom_itx, on a mill
[15:39:24] <Tom_itx> either way you're gonna have to move a couple clamps once
[15:39:57] <furrywolf> I've done stuff like that just clamping the outside and cutting the part free... make sure the last step is to get the spindle out of there asap, as otherwise it'll chew into the part when the part comes loose.
[15:40:05] <Tom_itx> several ways you can approach it
[15:40:16] <zeeshan> furrywolf: the inside yea
[15:40:35] <zeeshan> is that how you guys do the internal feature?
[15:40:37] <zeeshan> you just contour it
[15:40:49] <zeeshan> or would you use trochiodal milling
[15:40:51] <zeeshan> so make a bigger slot
[15:40:53] <XXCoder1> on cnc tend to cut interior and holes first
[15:40:56] <XXCoder1> then outside
[15:41:11] <XXCoder1> sometimes after adding screws to inside holes
[15:41:14] <zeeshan> yes but how is it being clamped when its being cut interior and holes
[15:41:17] <XXCoder1> clamps sometimes
[15:41:25] <XXCoder1> outside clamps
[15:41:26] <zeeshan> id like to make 10 of these
[15:41:36] <zeeshan> and theyre out of stainless 1/2"
[15:41:45] <XXCoder1> outside clamps while inside cut then put inside clamps with outside clamps still on
[15:41:48] <zeeshan> so i need the clamping to be pretty secure
[15:41:53] <XXCoder1> make sure its secure then remove outside clamps
[15:42:01] <Tom_itx> use 3 dowels for alignment, clamp the outside of the material, mill the holes and move to internal clamps threaded inside the holes and finish the profile
[15:42:13] <XXCoder1> tend to not use pins here lol
[15:42:27] <XXCoder1> depends of course
[15:42:29] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: thats how i have my fixture made
[15:42:31] <zeeshan> 3 dowels
[15:42:31] <Tom_itx> they're not even close to the cutter if you do it right
[15:43:10] <Tom_itx> make sure your zclear is high enough
[15:43:45] <XXCoder1> yeah lol I had to modify one really bad program, it went too close to one edge so cant clamp there
[15:44:07] <XXCoder1> so I added m00 to adjust clamps so em wouldnt hit em, AND increase z clearance over those
[15:44:13] <XXCoder1> so it hops over
[15:44:14] <Tom_itx> option 2 is align the holes over prethreaded holes in your plate. drill them and add bolts, remove all other clamps and mill the holes and profile
[15:44:37] <Tom_itx> 3 bolts would be enough probably
[15:44:49] <XXCoder1> most common way for me to secure parts before border cut'
[15:44:59] <JT-Shop> zeeshan, http://ibin.co/1rmN9LYNeYGr
[15:46:12] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop do you put that in stepjaws?
[15:46:25] <Tom_itx> parallels...
[15:46:38] <zeeshan> looks like that goes ina vise
[15:46:38] <zeeshan> :P
[15:46:46] <zeeshan> and his edges of the fixture are machiend nice
[15:46:47] <Tom_itx> that's what i meant
[15:46:49] <zeeshan> so you can reference off em
[15:47:10] <JT-Shop> yea, in a vise with parallels under
[15:47:11] <Tom_itx> you'd have too much overhang on your part though
[15:47:25] <zeeshan> im talking about the square one :)
[15:47:27] <zeeshan> or rect
[15:47:28] <Tom_itx> oh
[15:47:49] <JT-Shop> the long one you use more than one vise
[15:47:59] <zeeshan> id need to reindex that part
[15:48:02] <zeeshan> my machine only travels 15"
[15:48:09] <zeeshan> part is 17" i think
[15:48:10] <zeeshan> lol
[15:48:16] <Tom_itx> diagonal
[15:48:20] <XXCoder1> get bigger xy
[15:48:25] <Tom_itx> who says it has to be in x or y?
[15:48:32] <zeeshan> haha tom
[15:48:39] <Tom_itx> you think i'm kidding?
[15:48:40] <zeeshan> i didn't think about that :-)
[15:48:50] <Tom_itx> i make s*it work
[15:49:00] * zeeshan looks up dimensions
[15:49:17] <Tom_itx> add the tool diameter in your calcs too
[15:49:25] <Tom_itx> it's the path not the part
[15:49:33] <zeeshan> yea
[15:50:57] <furrywolf> my machine also travels 17", but it only has 11" overhang, so that's the largest area you can actually machine...
[15:52:06] <JT-Shop> for parts longer than your travel you need to be able to pick up some machined features from the first half on your fixture
[15:52:29] <zeeshan> yea to reindex
[15:52:48] <Tom_itx> yeah we've done parts over 100" long that way
[15:53:04] <zeeshan> tom
[15:53:10] <zeeshan> it works diagonal
[15:53:11] <zeeshan> good job :-)
[15:53:38] <zeeshan> i love running ideas by here
[15:53:48] <furrywolf> I might need to make a 16" diameter disc on my 11x10" mill... would have to mill it in quarters.
[15:53:48] <zeeshan> always come up with something better than i initially thought
[15:55:09] <furrywolf> the good part of it is that all four quarters are identical, and the first step is drilling 8 evenly-spaced holes, convienently indexing the next three steps...
[15:56:55] <Deejay> gn8
[16:01:19] <JT-Shop> dang the only drawings of the hiwin rail is on grabcad
[16:01:36] <zeeshan> grabcad ftw
[16:11:57] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak21wDMAQuA
[16:12:02] <zeeshan> this video might help .
[16:12:24] <zeeshan> looks like he's done the internal features and exterior in one go
[16:12:33] <zeeshan> but how did they put the holes in to hold the part onto the aluminum fixture?
[16:12:46] <zeeshan> complete seperate operation?
[16:14:06] <XXCoder1> zeeshan: maybe
[16:14:26] <XXCoder1> few jobs I do it usually drill holes not for part holes but for bolts
[16:14:30] <PetefromTn_> I need to make some parts like that...
[16:14:46] <zeeshan> im gonna do asmall run
[16:14:48] <zeeshan> for the local guys
[16:15:18] <zeeshan> XXCoder1: so i guess ill need 2 fixtures
[16:15:27] <zeeshan> or a smart way to hold it inthe same fixture
[16:15:28] <zeeshan> :)
[16:15:32] <PetefromTn_> why
[16:15:36] <XXCoder1> yeah why
[16:15:48] <zeeshan> one to hold it down while i machine the bolt holes
[16:16:01] <zeeshan> a quick setup type fixture
[16:16:03] <XXCoder1> just use hand clamps for that
[16:16:14] <zeeshan> yea but then ill need to square thwe work piece
[16:16:18] <PetefromTn_> yeah just clamp it down drill then screw it down
[16:16:18] <zeeshan> to the mill
[16:16:26] <XXCoder1> not if you cut all around
[16:16:38] <XXCoder1> precision when all outside is cut off isnt very needed
[16:16:48] <XXCoder1> just make sure all around will cut off
[16:16:49] <zeeshan> yes but the bolt holes need to be lined up
[16:16:51] <zeeshan> relative to each other
[16:16:58] <zeeshan> like if the work piec eisn't square
[16:17:02] <XXCoder1> just drill from those holes then tap em
[16:17:10] <XXCoder1> then put part on it and drill same places
[16:17:15] <PetefromTn_> not sure what you mean
[16:17:18] <XXCoder1> it will automically be aligned
[16:17:27] <XXCoder1> since its drilled same places
[16:17:28] <zeeshan> okay break this down into small steps
[16:17:34] <zeeshan> flat bar 1/2" x 18"
[16:17:41] <zeeshan> i need to mount this diagnonally on my mill
[16:17:55] <XXCoder1> zee first, use alum to make fixture, it should be pretty precise since you need to set x and y zero on it
[16:18:01] <zeeshan> i mount it directly to the table using regular clamps
[16:18:13] <XXCoder1> then drill holes and tap and store x and y for those holes
[16:18:38] <XXCoder1> with stock on that fixture, use clamps and program it to drill holes at same x, y (dont forget to set z)
[16:18:38] <zeeshan> yea
[16:18:49] <XXCoder1> bolt, remove clamps, then let it mill rest
[16:19:06] <XXCoder1> fixture is reuseable forever
[16:19:38] <zeeshan> so how am i lining up the stock
[16:19:39] <zeeshan> to the fixutre?
[16:19:57] <zeeshan> eyeballing it?
[16:20:12] <XXCoder1> yeah
[16:20:12] <PetefromTn_> If you machine the fixture with the go around pass deep enough to leave an impression so you can line it up that usually works.
[16:20:49] <XXCoder1> PetefromTn_: thats smart idea
[16:20:51] <PetefromTn_> also if you want to reuse the fixture you can machine a slot along the X axis kinda shallow which will not interfere with the milling
[16:20:54] <XXCoder1> cut outline on fixture
[16:21:01] <zeeshan> outline of what?
[16:21:06] <zeeshan> the raw stock is a rectangular plate.
[16:21:06] <XXCoder1> parts
[16:21:07] <PetefromTn_> the final part
[16:21:15] <zeeshan> how does an outline onthe fixture help line it up?
[16:21:30] <XXCoder1> stock must be over all lines
[16:21:30] <zeeshan> im thinking of a raw stock
[16:21:37] <zeeshan> ah okay
[16:21:41] <XXCoder1> if you can see lines part will be bad
[16:21:47] <zeeshan> gotcha :P
[16:21:58] <PetefromTn_> if you can see where the outline of the part will be you can line it up easily unless you are really pushing the size of material to part ratip
[16:22:02] <PetefromTn_> ratio
[16:22:08] <zeeshan> its stainless
[16:22:14] <XXCoder1> fixture must be bigger than part of course
[16:22:14] <zeeshan> so id like to keep stock as small as possible
[16:22:15] <zeeshan> !
[16:22:32] <ssi> hi
[16:22:35] <zeeshan> hi
[16:22:43] <PetefromTn_> hi
[16:22:51] <ssi> :D
[16:22:57] <zeeshan> im thinking 1/2" rougher
[16:23:00] <zeeshan> then 1/2" finisher
[16:23:02] <PetefromTn_> should be pretty easy to line up the stock on the outline
[16:23:53] <PetefromTn_> like I said if you cut a slot along the X and machine a precise hole for location you should be able to relocate the part fixture back on the table later on with those two datums.
[16:24:10] <XXCoder1> PetefromTn_: easiest would be just cut air
[16:24:31] <XXCoder1> even normal part height it should slightly be lower than surface of fixture
[16:24:45] <XXCoder1> so it will cut a little into fixture the first time
[16:25:02] <PetefromTn_> isn't that what I said already?
[16:25:03] <XXCoder1> then its visiable and can align stock to it
[16:25:10] <zeeshan> just fyi
[16:25:15] <XXCoder1> I know, im adding air cut idea
[16:25:18] <zeeshan> my fixture won't be perpendicular to the table
[16:25:19] <zeeshan> er
[16:25:20] <zeeshan> to the axios.
[16:25:23] <zeeshan> itll be diagognal
[16:25:29] <zeeshan> lsdkjsd i cant type for shit today
[16:25:34] <PetefromTn_> I am talking about using the slot for picking up the fixture later on...
[16:27:08] <XXCoder1> zeeshan: why cant be set flat?
[16:27:25] <zeeshan> not enough travel :)
[16:27:29] <zeeshan> without having to index
[16:27:56] <PetefromTn_> basically, clamp down your substrate fixture, locate and drill all the holes and machine the perimeter of the actual part profile into the surface of the fixture maybe .020 deep, then machine an XY zero hole for reaquisition of the fixture and finally machine a shallow slot with say a quarter inch endmill along the X axis so you can pickup the exact angle the next time you want to machine one of those parts..
[16:28:49] <PetefromTn_> this is all of course with your substrate fixture set at the angle you need to reach all around the part inside your travel limits.
[16:30:30] <XXCoder1> or just get new xy lol
[16:34:59] <zeeshan> yes let me buy anotehr mill
[16:35:04] <zeeshan> ! :P
[16:35:13] <XXCoder1> yeah worth it LOL
[16:39:14] <Tom_itx> think inside the box... (just don't forget it has corners)
[16:39:47] <PetefromTn_> never have a big enough machine LOL
[16:40:07] <XXCoder1> even if your cnc mill could mill a alum building its not big enough LOL
[16:40:18] <Tom_itx> we used to run parts with the side doors open hanging out
[16:40:33] <Tom_itx> like 6 or so vises on the slab
[16:41:26] <Tom_itx> some darn wing stringer parts or something... i forget now
[16:41:49] <zeeshan> i kinda used all your ideas
[16:41:53] <zeeshan> and came up with something
[16:43:04] <PetefromTn_> I need to make windows on my mill for that it has solid steel sheetmetal sides. I figure if I ever get a job that needs that I will come up with something...
[16:43:18] <ssi> I have removable side panels on mine
[16:43:23] <ssi> but they're solid sheetmetal panels
[16:43:32] <PetefromTn_> but even inside the enclosure I can do something quite large..
[16:43:39] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/lg6Bt4O.png
[16:43:45] <ssi> yea
[16:43:46] <zeeshan> the flat corner highlighted
[16:43:51] <ssi> can do an engine block on it no problem
[16:43:52] <zeeshan> ill use to reline the fixture with the table
[16:43:59] <zeeshan> the hole to get origin
[16:44:00] <zeeshan> for g-code
[16:44:15] <PetefromTn_> should work I think..
[16:44:33] <zeeshan> its not super accuirate anyway
[16:44:37] <PetefromTn_> might want to put the slot across the whole width to ensure you have enough distance to get a good X alignment
[16:44:38] <zeeshan> +/-10 thou ok
[16:44:48] <Tom_itx> we cut some of those from SS once
[16:44:56] <Tom_itx> i forget what engine it was for
[16:44:59] <zeeshan> ls
[16:45:14] <zeeshan> a lot of gm use it
[16:46:23] <zeeshan> i stil gotta put the recess for the sch40 pipe
[16:46:41] <furrywolf> the rule for automotive stuff seems to be to make every hold a sixteenth too large, so it all lines up even with non-perfect tolerances.
[16:46:42] <furrywolf> hole
[16:47:03] <zeeshan> well to me the most important is the bores.
[16:47:06] <furrywolf> or more. :)
[16:47:09] <zeeshan> i dont want to port match by hand
[16:47:12] <zeeshan> cause thats annoying
[16:47:47] <furrywolf> heh. I've always labeled that as "too much work for not much gain".
[16:48:05] <zeeshan> well in a turbo system
[16:48:24] <zeeshan> it makes difference in the pressure between the exhaust valve and turbine blades
[16:48:35] <zeeshan> its already a havoc in there :P
[16:48:52] <zeeshan> any edges become hot spots too
[16:49:08] <ssi> fortunately turbo systems are pretty insensitive to exhaust flow divergence issues
[16:49:09] <furrywolf> hrmm, my internet connection is suddenly sucking.
[16:49:24] <ssi> NA engines respond more heavily to backpressure tuning and such
[16:50:37] <furrywolf> I've never been into speed enough to care about the relatively small gains such tuning gives.
[16:50:57] <zeeshan> what is exhaust flow divergence
[16:51:04] <zeeshan> that sounds like a nozzle
[16:51:06] <zeeshan> :-)
[16:51:09] <ssi> things like badly matched ports
[16:51:22] <furrywolf> I did an engine swap on my subaru, got 60% more horses... not going to spend a month to get another 5% on top of that. heh.
[16:51:24] <ssi> where you get a sharp corner that causes turbulent divergence
[16:51:25] <zeeshan> you still notice issues on turbos
[16:51:36] <zeeshan> the manifold pressure is unnecessarily high
[16:51:43] <zeeshan> edges retain more heat
[16:51:51] <zeeshan> exhaust gas temp goes lame
[16:51:55] <ssi> this is true
[16:52:06] <zeeshan> but you just turn up the boost
[16:52:11] <zeeshan> and bam its all good
[16:52:17] <ssi> more boost is always good :D
[16:52:18] <zeeshan> ive had issues with my car with too much heat
[16:52:21] <zeeshan> typical turbo bullshit
[16:52:28] <ssi> my last car ran 29psi :P
[16:52:32] <zeeshan> lol
[16:52:48] <zeeshan> with v8 unless you want like 1500hp
[16:52:56] <zeeshan> 29 psi is too much!
[16:52:59] <ssi> it wasn't a v8 ;)
[16:53:01] <furrywolf> my car runs 14.5psi... oh, wait, you mean gauge, not absolute. :P
[16:53:03] <ssi> it was a 2.0 i4
[16:53:26] <zeeshan> my junker eclipse was turbo for a while
[16:53:28] <zeeshan> 2.4L turbo
[16:53:28] <ssi> furrywolf: you must live relatively close to sea level :)
[16:53:36] <ssi> 2.4?
[16:53:39] <ssi> what gen?
[16:53:39] <zeeshan> yea
[16:53:41] <zeeshan> 3rd gen
[16:53:42] <ssi> the neon motor?
[16:53:44] <zeeshan> no
[16:53:45] <zeeshan> lol
[16:53:45] <ssi> o
[16:53:47] <zeeshan> 4g64
[16:53:47] <furrywolf> ssi: 16ft, I think.
[16:54:13] <ssi> yeah I forget sometimes that atlanta is the second highest elevation major metropolitan city
[16:54:16] <zeeshan> its was my fun car 18-24
[16:54:29] <zeeshan> now its collecting rod on my driveway
[16:54:45] <ssi> zeeshan: every DD I've had for the last almost 20 years has been turbo :P
[16:54:54] <zeeshan> my current dd is turbo too haha
[16:54:55] <furrywolf> going to do another subaru engine swap soon on someone else's car... 230hp with no turbo. :P
[16:55:01] <zeeshan> but i don't intend to modify it at all
[16:55:10] <zeeshan> no need for multiple projects :P
[16:55:10] <ssi> the last one was 425hp awd
[16:55:15] <ssi> was fun til I got a street racing ticket :P
[16:55:18] <zeeshan> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/setup2007woot1.jpg
[16:55:20] <zeeshan> eclipse!
[16:55:30] <zeeshan> fak that pic is old
[16:55:38] <ssi> I never liked the 3gs
[16:55:46] <zeeshan> i liked it
[16:55:48] <ssi> buddy had a 3g 3.0l gt back in the day
[16:55:49] <zeeshan> just didnt like it was fwd
[16:55:52] <ssi> when I had my 1g gst
[16:55:56] <zeeshan> just spun wheels all the time
[16:55:57] <zeeshan> and broke axles
[16:56:08] <zeeshan> and if it wasn't axles it'd be the transmission
[16:56:09] <ssi> yeah that's why I got the R, for the awd
[16:56:18] <ssi> but honestly awd wasn't as awesome as I hoped
[16:56:18] <zeeshan> typical longitudal transmission bs
[16:56:24] <ssi> it didn't spin tires enough haha
[16:56:33] <zeeshan> have you driven a subie awd?
[16:56:36] <zeeshan> its completely different
[16:56:37] <ssi> and the fuel economy penalty sucked
[16:56:38] <ssi> yeah I have
[16:56:42] <zeeshan> symmetric awd ftw
[16:56:44] <ssi> I'm not a big fan tbh
[16:56:51] <furrywolf> someone I know has a toyota matrix... zippier than I expected. 180hp, NA.
[16:56:52] <zeeshan> i love my subie
[16:57:00] <ssi> I was planning on doing the race haldex controller, which would have given me adjustable balance
[16:57:05] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I have two subies. :)
[16:57:10] <zeeshan> which ones?
[16:57:18] <ssi> new stis are far too expensive
[16:57:18] <furrywolf> '83 and '84 wagons
[16:57:23] <ssi> $10k more than the R was, and slower
[16:57:24] <zeeshan> ah cool
[16:57:34] <furrywolf> the '84 is now a '96 imprezza under the hood...
[16:57:42] <zeeshan> fak subie motors though
[16:57:48] <zeeshan> well not just subie
[16:57:51] <zeeshan> but boxer engines in general
[16:57:54] <zeeshan> retarded design
[16:57:55] <ssi> lol the airplane I was flying today used to have a subie motor
[16:57:59] <ssi> which was a terrible idea
[16:58:02] <zeeshan> to put the piston pin
[16:58:06] <zeeshan> you gotta struggle lol
[16:58:08] <furrywolf> ... retarded because they run smooth with a nice low CG?
[16:58:12] <zeeshan> no
[16:58:15] <zeeshan> because they're a shit design
[16:58:19] <zeeshan> for assembly
[16:58:21] <zeeshan> and rebuilding
[16:58:49] <ssi> zeeshan: most airplane engines are boxers
[16:58:49] <furrywolf> eh? you use a big hex driver to pull out the plugs on the back and under the water pump, pop the c-clips, and the pins pull out...
[16:58:49] <zeeshan> they're also notorious for oiling issues
[16:58:56] <ssi> but they're aircooled with removable cyls
[16:58:57] <ssi> :D
[16:59:12] <zeeshan> im biased
[16:59:14] <zeeshan> i like my regular engines
[16:59:18] <zeeshan> theyre so easy to work on
[16:59:21] <zeeshan> fuck rotarys too
[16:59:22] <zeeshan> lol
[16:59:29] <furrywolf> I've worked on a couple subie engines, no complaints yet.
[16:59:30] <ssi> yeah fuck rotarys right in the ear
[16:59:49] <Tom_itx> i had a friend that raced those
[16:59:52] <Tom_itx> he liked em
[16:59:58] <zeeshan> i had a rotary for a longgg time
[17:00:04] <zeeshan> 3 of them
[17:00:08] <zeeshan> boom
[17:00:09] <zeeshan> boom
[17:00:10] <zeeshan> BOOM
[17:00:12] <ssi> I have a friend that had a couple of them
[17:00:18] <ssi> had an FD
[17:00:21] <zeeshan> apex seal out
[17:00:21] <furrywolf> just put together an ea81, going into an old brat that had an ea81. we're making a bellhousing adapter and a flywheel spacer to make it bolt to the old-style bellhousing.
[17:00:29] <ssi> and a 911 with a 13b in it
[17:00:30] <zeeshan> turbine blade disintigration!
[17:00:35] <ssi> yep
[17:00:51] <zeeshan> they also use fuel atomizer plates
[17:00:58] <zeeshan> that are made out of plastic and fall into the intake
[17:01:03] <zeeshan> and kaboom the apex seal too
[17:01:06] <furrywolf> with everyone I know, they've had about a half dozen rx7s... none of them seemed to be on the road more than six months at a time.
[17:01:13] <zeeshan> LOLfurry
[17:01:14] <zeeshan> it's true
[17:01:20] <zeeshan> i was one
[17:01:31] <zeeshan> v8 in rx7
[17:01:33] <furrywolf> kinda like air-cooled VWs. :P
[17:01:35] <zeeshan> is the best thing ive ever done
[17:01:49] <zeeshan> it makes me never want to modify anything else
[17:02:09] <zeeshan> iit's just really REALLY hard
[17:02:14] <zeeshan> to build a twin turbo setup for it
[17:02:21] <zeeshan> that is easy to work on and compact
[17:02:23] <ssi> why, space?
[17:02:26] <zeeshan> theres not much room at all
[17:02:29] <ssi> yea
[17:02:35] <zeeshan> my turbos last year were mounted too low
[17:02:37] <ssi> I used to do a lot with Z31s
[17:02:40] <furrywolf> someone I know now has an ls1 (or one of the other shiny SBCs, don't remember which) in an ancient jag xj12... bored and stroked, with a big aftermarket fuel injection system. much more power than the stock 12cyl. heh.
[17:02:41] <ssi> they have plenty of room :DH
[17:02:44] <zeeshan> so i had to use a scavenge pump to evacuate oil
[17:02:54] <zeeshan> which causes a shit load of issues
[17:03:15] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yea the lsx is a whore motor
[17:03:16] <zeeshan> it's in everything
[17:03:20] <zeeshan> from dune buggys
[17:03:22] <zeeshan> to snowblowers
[17:03:28] <ssi> lsx swaps bore the shit out of me
[17:03:28] <zeeshan> to boats to cars, to lawnmowers
[17:03:29] <zeeshan> hahaha
[17:03:38] <zeeshan> its a good motor
[17:03:41] <ssi> it is
[17:03:44] <ssi> and it's simple to do
[17:03:44] <zeeshan> even though its a pushrod v8
[17:03:45] <zeeshan> hahaha
[17:03:51] <ssi> step 1: buy crate motor
[17:03:54] <ssi> step 2: install
[17:03:57] <ssi> step 3: fast
[17:04:00] <ssi> BORING
[17:04:08] <zeeshan> yea i did my swap in like 3 months
[17:04:15] <zeeshan> but the twin turbo is what excited me
[17:04:19] <zeeshan> i like fabricating
[17:04:26] <ssi> now, a rb26dettr
[17:04:29] <ssi> that's an interesting swap
[17:04:29] <ssi> :D
[17:05:08] <zeeshan> to be honest i was considering doing a 4 banger in the rx
[17:05:12] <zeeshan> but f doing custom mounts
[17:06:02] <zeeshan> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/null_zps533f3917.jpg
[17:06:05] <zeeshan> where be the turbos?!
[17:06:10] <zeeshan> cant even see em
[17:06:12] <zeeshan> =D
[17:06:14] <furrywolf> my subaru swap wasn't too bad. plasma cut a bellhousing adapter, redrilled the flywheel, made a bunch of spacers for motor and tranny mounts, etc, built custom mounts for the shift linkage (I swapped in a tranny that fit neither the car nor the engine - needed adapters to the engine and to the car), built an air intake (with AEM dryflow), carefully disected the fuel injection wiring harness and re-wired it to work with the carb body, c
[17:06:40] <ssi> I did a subaru swap into a ferrari 308gts a couple years ago :P
[17:06:53] <zeeshan> f subaru motors!
[17:06:58] <zeeshan> you guys love your boxers eh
[17:07:08] <ssi> cause the only thing better than a ferrari is a ferrari that sounds like a drowning retard
[17:07:20] <furrywolf> I re-engineered the cats to make them fit under the old body, but haven't gotten around to anything past the cats yet. it's loud. :P
[17:07:33] <XXCoder1> meow
[17:08:23] <ssi> http://www.motivateusnot.com/resize.php?name=LzM3OC9SaXZlcnMtSXQncy13aGF0LW1ha2VzLWEtU3ViYXJ1LWEtU3VibWFyaW5lLTRiMWQ2OGQ2MjU1ZGMuanBn&w=550&h=9999&extension=.jpg
[17:08:49] <zeeshan> LOL
[17:08:53] <furrywolf> it only has 140hp, but it's reasonably zippy... I was happy when I did a test the other day... going up a hill at 40mph in 4th, dropped it into 2nd, and proceeded to spin both front wheels until I let off the gas...
[17:09:00] <zeeshan> furrywolf: turbo?
[17:09:04] <zeeshan> thats gotta be n/a
[17:09:06] <furrywolf> hell no
[17:09:07] * furrywolf likes NA
[17:09:38] <ssi> NA is boring :)
[17:09:51] <zeeshan> at least hes not driving a prius
[17:10:01] <furrywolf> ... that is NOT how you make a subaru a submarine. someone here built a "submaru" for the kinetic sculpture race. :P
[17:10:04] * JT-Shop hates google groups
[17:10:24] <ssi> zeeshan: what's wrong with prius?!
[17:10:31] <zeeshan> nothing
[17:10:33] <furrywolf> a lot. a whole lot.
[17:10:35] <ssi> hahah I'm just kidding
[17:10:36] <zeeshan> moar gas for me
[17:10:39] <furrywolf> worst car I've ever driven.
[17:10:42] <ssi> f priuses
[17:10:44] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/GL1wjt1.jpg
[17:10:46] <zeeshan> thats my subiee
[17:10:58] <furrywolf> and I've driven a tracker, a metro, a vw bug...
[17:11:08] <furrywolf> and the prius is worse than all of them.
[17:11:08] <zeeshan> i kinda want an exhaust on it
[17:11:10] <ssi> I had an '89 pontiac lemans
[17:11:12] <ssi> which was a rebranded metro
[17:11:18] <ssi> and I'd rather drive it than a prius
[17:11:24] <ssi> I paid $100 for it
[17:11:58] <zeeshan> haha
[17:12:09] <furrywolf> I did a major drivetrain upgrade on the '84 subaru... new engine, new transmission (NOT the one that goes with the engine, or the car - too easy!), new rear axle, 2" of lift, rear disc brakes,...
[17:12:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: the one thing id like to do on this car
[17:12:33] <zeeshan> is put a front diff.
[17:12:41] <zeeshan> the newer subies dont have vlsd
[17:12:43] <zeeshan> annoying
[17:12:55] <furrywolf> mine doesn't have lsds either.
[17:13:04] <zeeshan> you can't really say you got an awd then! :P
[17:13:12] <furrywolf> I didn't. :P
[17:13:12] <zeeshan> its more like 2 wheel drive
[17:13:12] <XXCoder1> lsd
[17:13:14] <zeeshan> orhaha
[17:13:31] <zeeshan> we go to a steep hill in deep snow
[17:13:32] <furrywolf> also, the tranny I put in is real 4x4, not awd. :)
[17:13:33] <zeeshan> and see who can make it up
[17:13:47] <ssi> what is "deep snow"?
[17:13:54] <zeeshan> 6" minimum
[17:13:59] <furrywolf> when the car was made, the options were a 4x4 4spd, or a 2wd 5spd... I swapped in a newer 4x4 5spd...
[17:14:02] <ssi> I didn't know they even made it that thick
[17:14:02] <furrywolf> 6" is not deep.
[17:14:09] <furrywolf> that won't even rub my diffs. :P
[17:14:14] <zeeshan> not in georgia :D
[17:14:16] <ssi> :)
[17:14:45] <furrywolf> I should have gone with 3" lift instead of 2". I might re-lift it.
[17:15:02] <zeeshan> wtf
[17:15:05] <zeeshan> you lifted your subie?
[17:15:05] <zeeshan> ahha
[17:15:14] <furrywolf> 3" makes fabbing the steering shaft slightly harder, and that was the most annoying part of the 2" lift already.
[17:16:38] <furrywolf> I had to make a lot of bits to adapt the various parts... custom power steering hoses, etc too.
[17:16:41] <furrywolf> I swapped in power steering while I was at it - the original car was manual steering, but with the big(ish) tires the lift lets you put on, figured power would be nice.
[17:16:57] <furrywolf> but, of course, no one ever made a hose to connect a '96 pump to a '82 (I think it was) gearbox.
[17:18:20] <zeeshan> just us ss teflon hose
[17:18:20] <furrywolf> let me guess, you're one of those weird people who likes cut springs and thinks sidewall is an evil that should be eliminated? :P
[17:18:31] <zeeshan> use
[17:18:38] <zeeshan> and an adapter fittings
[17:18:49] <zeeshan> cuts springs?!
[17:18:52] <zeeshan> wut
[17:19:00] <ssi> aeroquip 303 hose and 491 fittings :P
[17:19:09] <zeeshan> haha ssi
[17:19:13] <zeeshan> i knew you'd know your hose
[17:19:16] <zeeshan> you damn aircraft people
[17:19:22] <ssi> :)
[17:19:29] <ssi> hoses are expensive!
[17:19:33] <furrywolf> ... both of those are unneeded. power steering needs neither stainless braid nor teflon. I just used sae 100r5 hose.
[17:19:47] <ssi> I had to replace my oil cooler hoses this year due to 8yr AD
[17:19:54] <ssi> to buy them from a hose shop is about $600
[17:19:54] <zeeshan> furrywolf: its easy to work with
[17:19:55] <zeeshan> and cheap
[17:20:07] <ssi> I bought some 303 hose and reused the fittings and firesleeve and made my own
[17:20:16] <zeeshan> wtf
[17:20:17] <ssi> 303 is neither stainless braided nor teflon
[17:20:19] <zeeshan> thats too much money hose
[17:20:21] <zeeshan> for hose
[17:20:25] <ssi> but it's oil rated, fuel rated, pressure rated
[17:20:31] <zeeshan> i use aeroequip.cc
[17:20:43] <zeeshan> www.aeroquip.cc
[17:20:51] <ssi> furrywolf: https://scontent-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10917296_410114125823017_3758359561834189446_n.jpg?oh=db5c8ca94f0ac4e3c99706aecaf7a198&oe=554826B4
[17:20:58] <ssi> zeeshan: I use aircraftspruce.com :)
[17:21:03] <ssi> except I go there in person and buy it
[17:21:03] <zeeshan> :P
[17:21:05] <ssi> because I'm awesome like that
[17:21:10] <ssi> there's two in the country
[17:21:12] <ssi> one in Corona, CA
[17:21:16] <ssi> one in Peachtree City, GA
[17:21:36] <ssi> it's a 30m drive, or I can takeoff from the airport I live at, and by the time I hit 1500' AGL, I can glide into peachtree city airport
[17:21:40] <ssi> and walk to spruce
[17:21:50] <zeeshan> haha
[17:21:52] <zeeshan> nice
[17:21:57] <zeeshan> yea its better to buy stuff in real life
[17:22:01] <zeeshan> i try to do that as much as i can
[17:22:08] <ssi> I've gotten so close with the will call sales manager that I go over to his house on weekends and play music with him :D
[17:22:11] <zeeshan> but unfortunately, aerqouip hoses
[17:22:14] <zeeshan> and madnrel bends are 2 things
[17:22:18] <zeeshan> i can never find cheap locally.
[17:22:25] <zeeshan> the aluminum aeroquip that is
[17:22:30] <ssi> the thing that sucks about making hoses with aeroquip fittings is the tools
[17:22:36] <zeeshan> why
[17:22:38] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/aqmandrel.php?clickkey=37524
[17:22:41] <ssi> cause they're SPENSIVE
[17:22:43] <zeeshan> you can use the aluminum wrenches
[17:22:45] <zeeshan> i made some
[17:22:46] <ssi> I actually made my own
[17:22:48] <zeeshan> yea
[17:22:48] <zeeshan> ahha
[17:22:51] <furrywolf> I had to get my fittings from a couple different places, since no place had all of them at a reasonable price. the long 90 was the hardest to find.
[17:22:51] <zeeshan> and a vise
[17:22:59] <zeeshan> ive never used that mandrel before
[17:23:00] <zeeshan> whats that for
[17:23:03] <ssi> but I have some aeroquip mandrels now
[17:23:10] <ssi> that's how you install and remove 491 fittings
[17:23:19] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/aq491.php?clickkey=18886
[17:23:21] <zeeshan> okay they must be diffrent from what i use
[17:23:34] <ssi> see how the black part is tapered and threaded?
[17:23:44] <ssi> the 303 hose is rubber with a steel braid inside
[17:23:51] <ssi> you wrap tape around it, use a cutoff wheel to cut it square
[17:23:53] <ssi> take the tape off
[17:24:00] <ssi> then the gold part reverse threads onto the hose
[17:24:02] <zeeshan> thats what i do
[17:24:07] <zeeshan> i dont see where that mandrel comes in
[17:24:10] <ssi> then you tighten the black part on the mandrel real tight
[17:24:19] <furrywolf> http://hosewarehouse.com/190260-16S-SAE-JIC-37-Deg-Swivel-90-Degree-Long-Fitting-100R5-Reusable those, with a long run before the bend.
[17:24:21] <ssi> that allows you to thread the black part into the gold and the hose
[17:24:31] <ssi> you have to lube up the black part's stem
[17:24:37] <ssi> and then use a ton of force while you thread it in
[17:25:37] <ssi> you must use 816 fittings or something
[17:25:37] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/aq816.php?clickkey=11680
[17:25:49] <ssi> those go on the braided stainless hose
[17:25:52] <zeeshan> i honestly dont use anything but SS teflon
[17:25:54] <zeeshan> for most of my stuff
[17:25:56] <zeeshan> its not as flexible
[17:25:59] <zeeshan> but its the only hose i know of
[17:26:02] <zeeshan> that doesnt smell like fuel
[17:26:08] <ssi> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=4470821001
[17:26:08] <zeeshan> after a while
[17:26:09] <furrywolf> yeah, I used reusable fittings on mine too.
[17:26:53] <zeeshan> most of that ss braider rubber
[17:26:56] <furrywolf> -6 100r5 (which is 5/16") for the pressure, -6 (which is 3/8") and tranny cooler line for return.
[17:26:57] <zeeshan> of nylon braided rubber
[17:27:02] <zeeshan> permeates fuel after a while
[17:27:07] <zeeshan> fuel vapor that is
[17:27:09] <furrywolf> the stuff I used is steel braided
[17:27:47] <furrywolf> no, I don't know why -6 100r5 is smaller than 6/16ths. I bet ssi does. :P
[17:28:07] <ssi> I don't deal with 100r5
[17:28:16] <zeeshan> f sae
[17:28:20] <ssi> agreed :)
[17:28:20] <zeeshan> jic ftw
[17:28:25] <ssi> AN ftw
[17:28:26] <ssi> heh
[17:28:38] <zeeshan> doesnt sae use a 45 degree taper
[17:28:40] * furrywolf notes the main difference between jic and an is the price.
[17:28:41] <zeeshan> vs the 37 degree an uses
[17:28:46] <zeeshan> no
[17:28:49] <zeeshan> its a much better sealing system
[17:28:52] <zeeshan> cause of that taper angle
[17:28:56] <zeeshan> its like r8 vs cat40!
[17:28:56] <zeeshan> :P
[17:29:03] <furrywolf> jic is the same taper as an, no?
[17:29:06] <zeeshan> no
[17:29:08] <zeeshan> its 37 deg
[17:29:11] <zeeshan> sae is 45 degree
[17:29:16] <furrywolf> jic != sae.
[17:29:27] <zeeshan> i know :P
[17:30:01] <ssi> zeeshan: you watch that video I linked?
[17:30:42] <furrywolf> JIC and AN are both 37 degrees.
[17:30:51] <furrywolf> and, as far as I know, completely compatible.
[17:30:57] * JT-Shop gives up and goes inside
[17:31:20] <ssi> lol
[17:31:33] <zeeshan> thats pretty much the same way i assemble hose
[17:31:35] <zeeshan> in that video
[17:31:37] <furrywolf> the main difference being the price. :P
[17:31:40] <zeeshan> where is he using the mandrel
[17:31:43] <zeeshan> i dont have sound right now
[17:31:44] <ssi> you see what the mandrel does now?
[17:31:47] <zeeshan> he's driving
[17:31:48] <zeeshan> LOL
[17:31:49] <zeeshan> he's driving it
[17:31:55] <ssi> yeah you have to
[17:31:56] <zeeshan> i just use a wrench
[17:32:02] <ssi> the black part is two pieces
[17:32:07] <ssi> the B nut spins freely on the stem
[17:32:12] * furrywolf waits for zee to disagree about jic and an
[17:32:17] <ssi> if you didn't have a mandrel there'd be no way to spin the stem in
[17:32:27] <zeeshan> there is silly
[17:32:39] <ssi> not on these fittings
[17:32:40] <zeeshan> just tighten it to a plug fitting
[17:32:41] <zeeshan> :P
[17:32:46] <ssi> well yeah you could do that
[17:32:50] <ssi> same thing really
[17:32:53] <ssi> but the mandrels are nice to have
[17:32:58] <zeeshan> this poor guy
[17:33:01] <zeeshan> is giving his entire force
[17:33:04] <zeeshan> to turn that thing haha
[17:33:08] <ssi> also the mandrel has a shaft that runs all the way through the stem
[17:33:14] <ssi> to keep the stem from crushing
[17:33:18] <zeeshan> ah
[17:33:21] <ssi> and yes, it takes a LOT of force
[17:33:25] <ssi> the stem actually threads into the hose ID
[17:33:35] <furrywolf> mine weren't too hard to get together... greased them well, pushed hard.
[17:33:58] <furrywolf> then flushed the grease and crap out of the finished hose when done
[17:34:00] <zeeshan> ss
[17:34:05] <zeeshan> aeroquip performance fittings are diff
[17:34:07] <zeeshan> for racing
[17:34:14] <ssi> which fitting number do you use
[17:34:25] <furrywolf> I used -6 for my power steering.
[17:34:29] <ssi> -6 is the size
[17:34:33] <zeeshan> http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Faeroquipperformance.com%2Ffile%2F2767-StartLite%25C2%25AE%2BRacing%2BHose%2Bwith%2BReusable%2BFittings.pdf&ei=AyjhVJr4I4z-yQTS2YGgDg&usg=AFQjCNGx8sl9SCLbnwZCLotpgerZC96o8Q&bvm=bv.85970519,d.aWw&cad=rja
[17:34:36] <zeeshan> see if that opens a pdf
[17:34:42] <zeeshan> look at step 5
[17:34:44] <ssi> ya
[17:34:46] <furrywolf> ok, what do you mean by fitting number, then? :P
[17:34:52] <zeeshan> thats where their fancy thing wrenches come in play
[17:34:57] <furrywolf> http://hosewarehouse.com/190260-6S-SAE-JIC-37-Deg-Swivel-90-Degree-Long-Fitting-100R5-Reusable is the only one I remember the part number of
[17:35:01] <furrywolf> because it was annoying to find.
[17:35:03] <zeeshan> so they got an extra hex
[17:35:05] <zeeshan> fixed to the stem
[17:35:08] <ssi> furrywolf: the ones in that video were 491-4
[17:35:09] <zeeshan> unlike the fittings you posted
[17:35:14] <ssi> aeroquip 491 series, -4 size
[17:35:28] <furrywolf> the "video" is a box saying "please use a different OS with our proprietary software installed".
[17:35:49] <zeeshan> i didnt know you could put jic fittings
[17:35:53] <zeeshan> on sae hose
[17:35:56] <zeeshan> interesting
[17:36:35] <ssi> hm
[17:36:37] <furrywolf> the long 90 is much, much harder to find than the short 90. :)
[17:36:40] <ssi> those teflon racing fittings are kind apricey
[17:36:46] <zeeshan> depends on where you get em
[17:36:47] <zeeshan> ! :P
[17:36:53] <ssi> and that's coming from an airplane guy hahahah
[17:36:58] <furrywolf> lol
[17:37:27] <zeeshan> http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/s.nl/it.A/id.67563/.f?sc=23&category=553478
[17:37:29] <ssi> yea the 816 fittings sorta work the same way as your racing fittings
[17:37:31] <zeeshan> i use "Fragola" performance sometimes
[17:37:33] <zeeshan> theyre made in usa
[17:37:39] <ssi> 491 fittings are much simpler, cheaper, and hold higher pressure I think
[17:37:39] <furrywolf> I used nice fittings for the pressure line, for the return I just used generic chinese AN fitting...
[17:38:07] <furrywolf> hrmm, I probably have a picture of my gearbox around somewhere...
[17:38:21] <zeeshan> http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aer-fbm1122/overview/
[17:38:26] <zeeshan> 20 bux for the aeroequip brand
[17:38:29] <zeeshan> -6
[17:38:51] <ssi> zeeshan: retail on the 491-6 fitting is $13.50
[17:38:53] <zeeshan> use the straights when you can
[17:38:55] <ssi> and that's for a FAA-PMA part
[17:39:07] <ssi> I pay about $9 with my dealer discount
[17:39:09] <zeeshan> for a 90degree?
[17:39:16] <zeeshan> or straight
[17:39:19] <ssi> they don't come in 90 degree, they're all straight
[17:39:28] <zeeshan> oh straight -6 from aeroequip is 6.97
[17:39:29] <ssi> you'd use a 90 degree AN elbow with it
[17:39:35] <zeeshan> http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aer-fbm1103/overview/
[17:39:41] <zeeshan> but definitely not faa approved :P
[17:39:43] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/an822.php?clickkey=13804
[17:39:54] <zeeshan> yea thats a big no no for car guys
[17:39:55] <zeeshan> haha
[17:40:00] <ssi> btw
[17:40:01] <zeeshan> we like our mandrel 90s!
[17:40:05] <ssi> summit racing is also within 20 minute drive for me
[17:40:14] <zeeshan> i love summit racing
[17:40:16] <zeeshan> they are canada friendly
[17:40:24] <ssi> I went down there and bought four of their fuel jugs last weekend
[17:40:25] <zeeshan> they even do all your customs paper work for you
[17:40:34] <zeeshan> the vp racing fuel jugs?
[17:40:38] <ssi> vp style ones
[17:40:38] <zeeshan> for race fuel?
[17:40:41] <zeeshan> haha nice
[17:40:41] <ssi> but they're summit brand
[17:40:52] <furrywolf> I like my mandrel 90s too. :P
[17:40:52] <ssi> they're great for tankering fuel in the airplane :D
[17:41:03] <zeeshan> furrywolf: they're pretty!
[17:41:04] <zeeshan> :P
[17:41:17] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B96_gg5IYAA4fne.jpg:large
[17:41:34] <furrywolf> at some point a picture of my gearbox will upload... internet connection sucking today.
[17:41:34] <zeeshan> nice
[17:41:40] <zeeshan> brb
[17:41:54] <ssi> it's been a long time since I bought so much blue gas :P
[17:41:56] <ssi> it's cheap these days
[17:41:57] <furrywolf> or, at least, a picture of a very small part of it, because there's no angle you can see anything more than a little bit of it at once from.
[17:42:35] * furrywolf should have downsampled, but was lazy
[17:43:26] <ssi> oh here we go
[17:43:30] <ssi> stratoflex 680 fittings
[17:43:33] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/strato680.php?clickkey=13804
[17:43:47] <ssi> only $119 for -6 90 degree
[17:43:47] <ssi> :D
[17:43:57] <furrywolf> lol
[17:43:59] <furrywolf> I was annoyed mine cost $15.
[17:44:28] <ssi> I never use stratoflex shit.... the prices are stupid
[17:44:50] <ssi> even their firesleeve costs more than aeroquip
[17:45:04] * furrywolf thinks everything to do with airplanes, boats, or RVs is stupidly overpriced.
[17:45:31] <ssi> with airplanes it's mostly because of the damn PMA regs
[17:45:37] <ssi> cost of certification is a big part of it
[17:45:56] <jack16> so, today made first presentable piece. I like it! https://www.dropbox.com/s/ut1h8in1n3m7ibj/IMG_20150216_022143.jpg?dl=0
[17:46:08] <ssi> we were talking about that today; the -6 I 've been flying has a SPRL fuel valve in it
[17:46:15] <ssi> and it's the "cheap" option, at $160
[17:46:16] <furrywolf> and not all to do with "because our customers obviously have too much money", like the other two? :P
[17:46:20] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sprlfuelvalves.php?clickkey=9216
[17:46:32] <ssi> I have the andair valve for mine
[17:46:33] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/fs20tYPE4.php?clickkey=9216
[17:46:38] <ssi> which is "expensive" at $280
[17:46:43] <ssi> but it's WORTH the extra 50%
[17:47:26] <ssi> andair is a small company making bespoke airplane parts, and I know what goes into making small runs of custom parts like that
[17:47:27] <furrywolf> STILL uploading a 2mb image...
[17:47:35] <ssi> so I don't gripe too much about prices on things like that
[17:48:25] <furrywolf> except you can buy an automotive fuel valve for $10... sure the aerospace version is going to be a bit better, but is it 28 times better? heh
[17:48:39] <ssi> yes.
[17:48:54] <furrywolf> and rather than a small run subject to inter-batch tolerances and such, they're produced by a machine by the million, and will all work.
[17:48:58] <ssi> http://www.jmsonline.net/moeller-4-way-shut-off-valve-moe-03330410.htm?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=CLvn7JSN5cMCFVQ2gQod_mwAdA
[17:49:03] <ssi> that's the valve that vans supplies with the kits
[17:49:38] <ssi> if you're the kind of person who will spend 5-10 years and >$80,000 building an airplane
[17:49:41] <ssi> and cheap out on a fuel valve like that
[17:49:52] <ssi> then you deserve what you end up with :)
[17:49:54] <furrywolf> no load. and I don't think it's my connection.
[17:50:12] <ssi> http://www.starmarinedepot.com/moeller-brass-four-way-valve/pzz5385.html?gclid=COfjjLuN5cMCFS1o7Aod9gsAvQ
[17:50:15] <ssi> try that one
[17:50:55] <furrywolf> lol, I have a couple of those. except I didn't get them from a marine place, so they were a third the cost. :P
[17:51:12] <ssi> well I have a couple of them as well, and I didn't pay anything for them
[17:51:17] <furrywolf> I also have the version with 6 fittings.
[17:51:19] <ssi> but I'm not putting them in a $120,000 airplane
[17:51:29] <ssi> http://www.europa.com/~swayze/RV-7A/Fuselage/100_7788%20(Small).JPG
[17:51:42] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/Suabru%20PS%2002.jpg fittings on my gearbox. finally!
[17:51:48] <ssi> http://www.europa.com/~swayze/RV-7A/Fuselage/100_7375%20(Small).JPG
[17:51:51] <ssi> looks so much better
[17:51:57] <ssi> feels better, positive actuation with stops
[17:53:03] <furrywolf> see, I don't have $120k to spend on anything, much less transportation.
[17:54:00] <ssi> me either
[17:54:07] <ssi> that's why I built it, $6000 at a time :P
[17:54:42] <furrywolf> if I ever have an aircraft, it'll probably be because I pirated a copy of the ch 701 skyjeep blueprints and built it from scrap metal.
[17:54:57] <ssi> "scrap metal"?
[17:55:10] <furrywolf> ... metal found at the local scrapyard
[17:55:18] <ssi> god help us all :P
[17:55:55] <ssi> btw the metal is the cheapest part by a long sho
[17:56:09] <furrywolf> http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/7drawings.html you can buy just the plans. :P
[17:56:13] <ssi> I'm aware
[17:56:53] <ssi> it's really not hard
[17:57:14] <ssi> and if your scrapyard has 2024-t3 alclad in the approprate thicknesses and big enough, I guess have at it
[17:57:15] <XXCoder1> design for plane??
[17:57:35] <furrywolf> and, fortunately, due to their shape, power/weight, and reliability, subaru motors are quite popular for DIY aircraft... and I can work with one with my eyes closed. heh.
[17:57:44] <ssi> ugh don't do a subaru
[17:57:51] <ssi> the plane I was flying today used to be a subaru
[17:58:00] <ssi> til it failed and went down in a field
[17:58:07] <ssi> and was sold for next to nothing, and rebuilt with a proper engine
[17:58:16] <XXCoder1> planes. dang you guys is rich
[17:58:22] <furrywolf> mechanical failure, or user error, like keeping the automotive electronic ignition? heh
[17:58:24] <ssi> it costs more to do a subaru than a lycoming
[17:58:29] <ssi> mechanical failure
[17:58:31] <ssi> PSRU failure
[17:58:51] <furrywolf> XXCoder1: read the whole conversation. like the bit about how if I ever have a plane, it'd need to be built from scrap metal and car parts.
[17:59:04] <ssi> it was FORTY KNOTS slower with the subie than it is with a 150hp lycoming
[17:59:10] <ssi> had holes in the bottoms of the wings for radiators
[17:59:12] <XXCoder1> ahh
[17:59:26] <ssi> a PSRU for a subaru installation costs more than a used lycoming
[17:59:28] <ssi> just don't do it :P
[17:59:34] <furrywolf> psru? as in a prop gearbox, not the engine itself?
[17:59:37] <ssi> correct
[17:59:45] <furrywolf> ... so nothing made by subaru failed, then. :P
[18:00:07] <ssi> and that changes the situation how, exactly?
[18:00:16] <furrywolf> don't blame subaru. :)
[18:00:20] <ssi> I'm not blaming subaru
[18:00:35] <ssi> I'm blaming people who insist on using subarus in aircraft installations :P
[18:00:51] <XXCoder1> onder if can build plane with lathe and mill lol
[18:00:55] <furrywolf> well, people have put them in the ch701, and reported good performance...
[18:01:02] <ssi> XXCoder1: you can build a plane with tinsnips and a file
[18:01:09] <furrywolf> XXCoder1: and an air rivet gun.
[18:01:17] <XXCoder1> lols ok
[18:01:29] <ssi> most builders actually don't have machine tools
[18:01:48] <furrywolf> an air nibbler will probably make your life much better too.
[18:02:27] <XXCoder1> I always wanted to fly a plane
[18:02:31] <XXCoder1> just once or something
[18:02:33] <ssi> so do it
[18:02:42] <XXCoder1> nah cant
[18:02:45] <ssi> why not
[18:02:49] <XXCoder1> I cant talk by radio
[18:02:54] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: Fuck a plane, get a squirrel suit!
[18:02:54] <furrywolf> "just once" takes, what, $45k? :P
[18:03:01] <ssi> what do you mean?
[18:03:03] <XXCoder1> and money yes lol
[18:03:09] <ssi> what city are you in?
[18:03:12] <XXCoder1> ssi: I has no spoken native language
[18:03:28] <XXCoder1> my spoken language is "none of the above"
[18:03:33] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: Well, if it's JUST ONCE, that are alternative options available.
[18:03:36] <ssi> that shouldn't be an issue for "just once"
[18:03:39] <Jymmm> there*
[18:03:45] <ssi> what city are you in
[18:03:55] <XXCoder1> yeah would have to have someone else start fly then I take over for a bit
[18:04:00] <furrywolf> I really like the ch701's sub-100ft takeoff... and that building it is easy, as no metal needs to be bent in more than one direction. :)
[18:04:01] <XXCoder1> but money still a issue
[18:04:19] <XXCoder1> furrywolf: ever seen bush plane?
[18:04:23] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: takeoff/flying is easy it's landing that's a bitch =)
[18:04:34] <XXCoder1> it could literally land ontiny strip on hill and fly off
[18:04:49] <ssi> XXCoder1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeQP-H_31JQ
[18:04:54] <XXCoder1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13NubUmsBXk
[18:04:54] <ssi> one of my favorites
[18:05:04] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: But you said JUST ONCE, you never said anything about landing
[18:05:28] <furrywolf> heh, they point out that just because you stuff in a larger engine, doesn't mean the Vne goes up. I wonder how many people forget that? :)
[18:05:57] <XXCoder1> ssi looking
[18:06:00] <ssi> furrywolf: not only that
[18:06:05] <ssi> Vne is in true airspeed
[18:06:08] <ssi> and most people don't know that
[18:06:20] <ssi> because it's marked on an airspeed indicator, people assume it's in indicated airspeed
[18:06:30] <ssi> most airplanes can't fly high enough and/or fast enough to make that an issue
[18:06:33] <ssi> but a lot of experimentals can
[18:06:42] <ssi> and people blow through vne without realizing it
[18:07:01] <furrywolf> that would seem logical... and the only airspeed calibration cable I've seen was only a couple knots...
[18:07:31] <DaViruz> that deadstick takeoff seems a tad.. suicidal
[18:07:36] <ssi> true diverges from inidicated with decreased density
[18:07:40] <ssi> ie altitude
[18:07:45] <XXCoder1> DaViruz: did you see my video?
[18:07:47] <XXCoder1> pretty nasty
[18:07:52] <ssi> DaViruz: it's awesome!
[18:07:53] <XXCoder1> theres lots bush pilot stuff
[18:08:15] <DaViruz> ssi: sure, suicidal and awesome aren't mutually exclucive.. :)
[18:08:19] <furrywolf> I don't recall the absolute ceiling of the 701, but I'd bet it's pretty low. heh.
[18:08:27] <ssi> yea it's pretty low
[18:08:30] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: just toss a flar into the fuel tank, no need to deal with landing then.
[18:08:35] <ssi> this is more in the context of RVs
[18:08:42] <ssi> service ceiling on a 200hp RV is like 26,000
[18:08:49] <ssi> Vne is 200kt
[18:09:19] <ssi> but at 18,000', 150kt indicated is 204kt true
[18:09:21] <ssi> ie over Vne
[18:09:52] <ssi> calibrated airspeed corrects for installation and angle of attack errors
[18:10:06] <XXCoder1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPhhFPTWq4k ending bit scary
[18:10:09] <ssi> for instance, the RV6 I was flying today has a weird pitot installation
[18:10:17] <ssi> was doing slow flight today, and it was flying indicating BELOW 0kt
[18:10:19] <furrywolf> hrmm, I didn't realize indicated and true differed by that much. static-pitot sucks more than I thought. :)
[18:10:29] <ssi> it's not pitot-static's fault
[18:10:38] <ssi> it's the fact that at 18k the air density is reduced by half
[18:10:40] <DaViruz> ssi: you must've put it in reverse accidentally
[18:10:51] <ssi> true airspeed is the speed that air molecules are traveling past the wing
[18:10:57] <ssi> indicated airspeed is dynamic pressure
[18:11:02] <ssi> which depends on density
[18:11:11] <ssi> DaViruz: heheh
[18:11:16] <ssi> gps was showing 38kt ground speed
[18:11:22] <furrywolf> probably put your static port somewhere that wasn't static... or your pitot iced up.
[18:11:24] <ssi> but at that high angle of attack, the pitot is pointing more up than forward
[18:11:41] <ssi> THAT is what calibrated airspeed is for
[18:11:43] <XXCoder1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOZTzQrz014 more extreme
[18:11:51] <ssi> convert KIAS to KCAS, then convert KCAS to KTAS
[18:12:08] <furrywolf> if I remember right, pitot icing will show as decreasing/negative airspeed as you descend...
[18:12:16] <ssi> in normal flight regimes KIAS and KCAS are very close for reasonable installations
[18:12:29] <ssi> pitot icing can do all kinds of crazy shit
[18:12:32] <ssi> normally it'll actually go up
[18:13:18] <ssi> I had water in my pitot in the cherokee the other day after a kid washed it for me, and it was showing 50kt on the ground
[18:13:21] <ssi> stationary
[18:14:12] <ssi> http://jdfinley.com/what-happened-to-the-subaru-aircraft-engine/
[18:14:30] <furrywolf> what did the kid do, aim the hose in it? normal water should drain out, that sounds like water stuck in a loop in the tubing.
[18:14:32] <XXCoder1> ssi: did you see my recent loink lol
[18:14:47] <ssi> watching now
[18:15:34] <ssi> same guy as the other vid heh
[18:15:51] <XXCoder1> one lanbding on river to bank?
[18:15:56] <ssi> ya
[18:16:00] <XXCoder1> ahh cool
[18:16:30] <ssi> if you like stol stuff, these are pretty cool
[18:16:31] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZouzzfZcrg
[18:16:38] <XXCoder1> looking
[18:17:11] <XXCoder1> sigh youtube center is bit buggy
[18:17:18] <zeeshan> random q
[18:17:20] <zeeshan> what do you guys eat?
[18:17:23] <zeeshan> :-)
[18:17:26] <zeeshan> i need some food ideas
[18:17:36] <XXCoder1> soylent for breakfast and whatever my sis in law cooks for dinner
[18:17:42] <ssi> zeeshan: small knowitall mechanical engineers
[18:17:47] <zeeshan> lol
[18:18:05] <ssi> I brought a frozen chicken pot pie to work with me :P
[18:19:19] <furrywolf> zeeshan: curry!
[18:19:48] <ssi> the guy that owns the RV6 I've been flying this week wants me to buy it from him
[18:19:57] <zeeshan> lol
[18:19:58] <ssi> said he'll give it to me for what he's got in it, which is $33k
[18:20:01] <zeeshan> you guys suck at cooking
[18:20:02] <ssi> it's tempting
[18:20:07] <zeeshan> until i see a cnc cooker
[18:20:11] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9gMdjZIQAAlRQ0.jpg:large
[18:20:12] <zeeshan> i wont be impressed
[18:20:15] <XXCoder1> cnc cooker
[18:20:21] <ssi> zeeshan: have you seen the food 3d printers?
[18:20:26] <furrywolf> curry is possibly the best food in existance.
[18:20:26] <zeeshan> haha yea
[18:20:28] <zeeshan> but its not the same
[18:20:31] <zeeshan> i want one to make lasagne for me
[18:20:36] <renesis> yellow curry sucks
[18:20:37] <zeeshan> furrywolf: im brown
[18:20:39] <ssi> I have a cnc machine that makes lasagna
[18:20:40] <zeeshan> i naturally eat curry
[18:20:41] <renesis> green curry > all curry
[18:20:42] <zeeshan> but i cant make it
[18:20:52] <ssi> it's called a microwave
[18:20:56] <ssi> you put a stouffers box in it
[18:20:59] <ssi> and out comes lasagna
[18:21:03] <renesis> ssi: do you isolate your cheese and sauce layers?
[18:21:14] <renesis> or do you layer sauce onto cheese
[18:21:30] <ssi> renesis: lol I never considered it
[18:21:35] <renesis> if you just stouffers it you do not isolate
[18:21:41] <ssi> then there's your answer
[18:21:44] <renesis> but stouffers is pretty good shit
[18:21:49] <ssi> yeah it really is hehe
[18:21:52] <renesis> i isolate
[18:22:01] <ssi> dammit now you're making me wish I'd brought stouffers lasagna instead of chickin pot pie
[18:22:17] <XXCoder1> garfield loves em
[18:22:24] <renesis> garfield knows whats up
[18:22:33] <furrywolf> my internet connection seems to be sucking too badly to participate in conversations. "��� CTCP PING reply from furrywolf: 109.089 seconds"
[18:22:44] <ssi> lame
[18:22:54] <renesis> thats what my shell is like sometimes
[18:23:08] <zeeshan> lol
[18:23:09] <XXCoder1> ssi: awesome but whats up with nazi getup
[18:23:22] <ssi> they were german recon planes
[18:23:32] <ssi> fieseler storch
[18:23:59] <furrywolf> hrmm, you don't want curry... how about pho? pho is good. :P
[18:24:00] <renesis> im totally doing bacon fried rice once dishes are clean
[18:24:09] <ssi> BACON FRIED RICE!?
[18:24:10] <renesis> pho is good but bun is better
[18:24:10] <XXCoder1> sraracha
[18:24:34] <renesis> bun with beef w/ cutup egg rolls is how i test vietnamese place
[18:24:51] <renesis> (bun is vermicelli noodle salad)
[18:25:13] <renesis> ssi: whats wrong with bacon fried rice?
[18:25:24] <ssi> the fact that I have none in front of me, obviously
[18:25:27] <renesis> bacon and toasted almond fried rice is better but i dont have almonds
[18:25:42] <ssi> I'm coming over to your house for dinner from now on
[18:25:42] <renesis> but i has onions and eggs
[18:26:05] <renesis> cool because its hard to cook cheap for 1
[18:26:20] <renesis> i always make too much rice because wtf is a half cup of rice
[18:26:33] <ssi> heheh
[18:26:42] <ssi> cooking for one is very hard
[18:26:46] <ssi> I've never been good at it w
[18:26:51] <XXCoder1> I dont bother
[18:26:51] <renesis> and beans i gotta make a weeks worth because its like a 3 hour drama to cook beans
[18:26:55] <XXCoder1> I just drink soylent
[18:26:57] <ssi> which is why I eat a lot of fast food and frozen dinners :(
[18:26:59] <XXCoder1> boom all what I need
[18:27:12] <renesis> i kind of want to try one of the soylents
[18:27:19] <XXCoder1> one flaw is that it takes long time to get first order
[18:27:21] <renesis> not actual soylent tho, i dont think
[18:27:26] <XXCoder1> then finally can get em
[18:27:47] <XXCoder1> renesis: one tip, first order just order one week worth
[18:27:55] <furrywolf> bbl, errands
[18:27:58] <ssi> "f you are a real experimenter, have an airframe that has superb engine out/off field capabilities, have another airplane to actually fly (if that is a goal), don’t mind tinkering for the next 5-6 years, and don’t mind throwing it all away in the end, the Egg engine might be an acceptable starting point. If it were me, I would stay away from them. (my apologies to the guys that are trying to unload these FWF packages)"
[18:27:59] <XXCoder1> if its fine prder month worth and it will take only week say
[18:28:03] <renesis> i was going to try 100% food or something similar
[18:28:04] <ssi> lol
[18:29:18] <renesis> i tried carne asada from trader joes
[18:29:24] <renesis> fuckin $8/lb
[18:29:29] <andypugh> Quiche in oven. Watch TV, put salad stuff on a plate, get quiche out of oven. Meal. (not a Real Man meal though)
[18:29:32] <XXCoder1> trader joe is ripoff
[18:29:34] <renesis> but yeah, definitely tastey
[18:29:42] <renesis> how is trader joes a ripoff?
[18:29:48] <renesis> its usually cheaper than normal supermarket
[18:29:59] <renesis> whole foods is kind of a ripoff
[18:30:21] <XXCoder1> hmm remembered em as ripoff but may be misremembering with whole foods
[18:30:36] <ssi> all food is a ripoff
[18:30:36] <ssi> hahaha
[18:30:37] <renesis> usually people who say trader joes is a ripoff dont shop there
[18:30:51] <renesis> i go there because the only shit cheaper is the absolute cheapest shit at reg market
[18:30:55] <XXCoder1> ssi: soylent isnt bad, around $3.5 each meal usd
[18:30:55] <renesis> and not even then, sometimes
[18:31:08] <renesis> its like $300-400 month
[18:31:09] <ssi> XXCoder1: does it taste horrible?
[18:31:11] <renesis> 3 meals
[18:31:41] <XXCoder1> ssi: its netual really. you need to add stuff to make it nasty
[18:31:43] <XXCoder1> tasty
[18:31:48] <XXCoder1> either way you like
[18:31:51] <ssi> haha
[18:31:57] <zeeshan> i think im gonna make some garlic shrimp
[18:31:58] <ssi> "mmmm, let's make it nasty"
[18:32:04] <zeeshan> doesnt feel like enough food :/
[18:32:10] <zeeshan> is there a side that typically goes with it?
[18:32:14] <XXCoder1> I usually use milk chocuate powder to make it yummy
[18:32:24] <ssi> zeeshan: pasta maybe
[18:32:34] <renesis> or do rice with the shrimp broth
[18:32:39] <zeeshan> plain rice?
[18:32:40] <renesis> and lots of butter
[18:32:42] <ssi> renesis loves his rice
[18:32:44] <zeeshan> lol
[18:32:50] <renesis> rice is fast and cheap yo
[18:32:50] * XXCoder1 hates butter
[18:32:53] <ssi> indeed
[18:32:59] <renesis> so is pasta, shrimp sucks tho
[18:33:00] <ssi> hates butter?
[18:33:00] <XXCoder1> butter does number on my guts
[18:33:02] <ssi> who hates butter?!
[18:33:04] <ssi> haha
[18:33:09] <malcom2073> I miss shrimp
[18:33:12] <renesis> only bacon fat > butter
[18:33:16] <ssi> :D
[18:33:19] <malcom2073> Got allergic to my favorite food suddenly two years ago
[18:33:23] <XXCoder1> ssi: actuall I do like butter but like I said..
[18:33:29] <ssi> I used to be allergic to shrimp
[18:33:31] <ssi> and grew out of it I guess
[18:33:37] <XXCoder1> malcom2073: try allegric to my most favorite fruit of all
[18:33:39] <XXCoder1> lemon
[18:33:39] <ssi> cause i ate shrimp on my sailing trip in december and didn't die
[18:33:42] <malcom2073> ssi: Damn you, you gave me your allergy!
[18:33:45] <XXCoder1> and second, orange
[18:33:46] <ssi> yep!
[18:33:50] <ssi> I hope you enjoy it :)
[18:33:50] <XXCoder1> left me with no favorites
[18:33:56] <malcom2073> XXCoder1: wanna be allergic to shrimp?
[18:33:59] <malcom2073> Lookin to pass this one on :)
[18:34:08] <XXCoder1> sure if you wanna be allegric to cirtu
[18:34:16] <ssi> "One airplane I heard about in Camarillo, CA had a very minor problem with an injector or spark plug, and the engine's computer went into the "limp home" mode, where it only made 25% power, and lit up the "service engine light". This was apparently not a welcome event just after he took off, so the airplane slowly settled back into a farm field with the pilot unable to do anything but not turn the airplane and sit there screaming. Lesson learned: disabl
[18:34:19] <XXCoder1> minor one, headaches and bit dizzy but yeah
[18:34:24] <malcom2073> I'm ok with that, I can't eat citrus anyway, mouth swells up from the acidity
[18:34:28] <andypugh> I already am allergic to prawns (which are exactly the same thing in a different dialect)
[18:34:33] <XXCoder1> lol ok
[18:34:52] <XXCoder1> disable...
[18:35:04] <ssi> andypugh: haha
[18:35:12] <malcom2073> andypugh: aren't prawns crayfish?
[18:35:36] <CaptHindsight> sea spiders?
[18:35:41] <andypugh> No, pwawns are just big shrimps.
[18:36:03] <XXCoder1> big lobsers this side of usa
[18:36:05] <XXCoder1> tiny crab
[18:36:06] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prawn
[18:36:10] <XXCoder1> other side is opposite
[18:36:24] <XXCoder1> I once almost got job at maryland
[18:37:20] <malcom2073> I lived in MD mosto f my life, love crabs
[18:38:53] <Jymmm> malcom2073: you have crabs?
[18:39:07] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Not anymore, I got allergic :-P
[18:39:14] <malcom2073> little soap and water cleared it right up
[18:39:18] <XXCoder1> crabs lol
[18:39:28] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Nice.
[18:39:51] <Jymmm> malcom2073: How much are crabs by you?
[18:40:17] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Not a clue, been allergic for the past several years, but I'm 10 minutes from maryland, so they're heap
[18:40:23] <malcom2073> cheap*
[18:40:28] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Would it be worth buying shipping a case to calif?
[18:40:58] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Like $8/lb here iirc, probably higher now.
[18:40:59] <malcom2073> Jymmm: I'm sure there are places in MD that ship
[18:41:57] <Jymmm> malcom2073: No, I don't want "places", I want straight off the dock/boat (wholesale)
[18:42:04] <malcom2073> Heh
[18:42:24] <malcom2073> Most of these places are pickup trucks on the side of the road, I never went all the way down to the harbor, live crabs are live crabs
[18:42:32] <malcom2073> at least in MD
[18:42:34] <andypugh> Buy scuba gear and eat them raw underwater :-)
[18:42:49] <Jymmm> malcom2073: back of a truck works too =)
[18:43:13] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Would not be the first nor the last time I bougt food out of a car/parling lot
[18:43:25] <malcom2073> Jymmm: That's the only way to buy crabs in MD :-D
[18:44:02] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I will never know =)
[18:44:21] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Find a reason to visit MD sometime, the capitol is a nice place
[18:44:32] <Jymmm> Yeah, no.
[18:45:00] <Jymmm> Ok, I lied, I'd like to see NE in the Autumn leaves, but that's it.
[18:45:16] <Jymmm> s/in/for/
[18:45:19] <malcom2073> No interet in museums, historic battlefields, whatnot?
[18:45:36] <Jymmm> Nope, just the autumn leaves.
[18:45:54] <Jymmm> Which I suspect is not crab season
[18:46:52] <malcom2073> Heh to each their own. I love checking out interesting stuff everywhere I go, it's amazing what you can find
[18:48:02] <malcom2073> Wandered around the largest collection of petroglyphs in the western hemisphere last time I was out in CA
[18:56:06] <Jymmm> Thre's LOTS of stuff here for ppl to see, nothing I can think of in MC, sorry.
[18:56:13] <Jymmm> MD*
[19:20:57] <MrFahrenheit> does anyone know anything about these couplings (at least a proper name) http://www.fscoupling.com/95mm-to-95mm-flexible-clamp-shaft-coupling-38-95x95mm-encoder-shaft-coupler-connector-diameter-25mm-length-30mm-p-138.html
[19:21:16] <MrFahrenheit> they look like standard spiral beam couplings, but they're not spiral
[19:21:30] <MrFahrenheit> some places seem to call them parallel flex coupling
[19:25:03] <tjb1> JT-Shop: jthornton no, neever heard of them
[19:26:11] <MrFahrenheit> too bad (I assume you're replying to me, otherwise I'm a bit confused :P)
[19:27:25] <Tom_itx> never used em
[19:40:10] <MrFahrenheit> thanks for the replies
[21:53:06] <zeeshan> zZzZ
[22:05:57] <PetefromTn_> trying to decide if I should fill up my kerosene container tonight before the shitty weather gets here overnight. My heater is full and I got like a half a container here in the keg hehe
[22:10:11] <zeeshan> dude
[22:10:15] <zeeshan> its so cold here its incredible
[22:10:47] <zeeshan> my car gauge says -26C
[22:10:57] <zeeshan> -14.8 f
[22:11:11] <Jymmm> It was 78F here today, I was running around in shorts and sandals.
[22:11:12] <zeeshan> weather.ca says feels like -35
[22:11:23] <Jymmm> 90F in SoCal
[22:11:45] <PetefromTn_> we got pretty damn cold here last night down into the single digits
[22:11:45] <Jymmm> Yes, i know, I'm a bastard =)
[22:12:25] <PetefromTn_> it is supposed to get even colder tonight and we are apparently getting a lot of precipitation that will be an icy wintery mix which sucks pretty bad.
[22:12:30] <zeeshan> pete
[22:12:38] <zeeshan> i didnt know it got cold in the south :P
[22:12:44] <zeeshan> mid south :p
[22:12:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know right
[22:12:58] <PetefromTn_> we usually only get a couple days a year of this stuff
[22:13:08] <zeeshan> lol
[22:13:09] <PetefromTn_> but this is supposed to be pretty bad they are predicting
[22:13:14] <zeeshan> its 0C in memphis
[22:13:17] <zeeshan> :P:p
[22:13:24] <PetefromTn_> at least the kids are out of school for the next two days
[22:13:44] <PetefromTn_> I probably should just go get the kerosene in case the wires freeze and we loose power
[22:14:01] <PetefromTn_> lose
[22:14:07] <zeeshan> yea
[22:14:10] <zeeshan> better to be safe than sorry
[22:14:42] <PetefromTn_> well like I said my non electric kerosene heater is totally full and my can is able halfway
[22:14:59] <PetefromTn_> I wish I had another can I could empty it into and refill the big can completely
[22:15:05] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_ how's that global warming feelin about now?
[22:15:13] <PetefromTn_> heh right
[22:15:16] <zeeshan> one thing i dont understand is
[22:15:21] <zeeshan> if the winter solstics is like december something
[22:15:27] <zeeshan> why does it get so cold in feb?
[22:15:32] <PetefromTn_> Oh wait I know I can fill up my electric kerosene heater that dies on me
[22:15:32] <zeeshan> if we're physically getting less light
[22:15:36] <zeeshan> is it something to do w/ the distance?
[22:15:45] <PetefromTn_> died on me
[22:15:56] <PetefromTn_> and then fill the bottle completely
[22:16:15] <PetefromTn_> I have a kerosene suction pump for removing it from the other heater if I need to..
[22:17:22] <PetefromTn_> ya know it's funny the other day I watched that movie Brick mansions or whatever it was called with Paul Walker and all that free running stunts
[22:17:34] <zeeshan> that movie was pretty good
[22:17:48] <PetefromTn_> and tonight I clicked on this movie district 13 which I THOUGHT was that alien space movie
[22:17:57] <zeeshan> its AWESOME
[22:18:04] <zeeshan> i dont know if theyre gonna make a sequel
[22:18:06] <PetefromTn_> but it is some kinda french version of the same brick mansions movie
[22:18:06] <zeeshan> they should :/
[22:18:14] <PetefromTn_> I never saw the end of it..
[22:18:18] <PetefromTn_> whats it called again?
[22:18:42] <zeeshan> district 13?
[22:18:53] <PetefromTn_> It even has the same actor that played in brick mansions the free runnner althlete guy
[22:19:13] <PetefromTn_> Thats what I thought it was called too but this is ALSO called District 13.
[22:19:16] <ssi> it's supposed to get all the way down to 28F tonight
[22:19:24] <PetefromTn_> It is funny the story line is almost exactly the same
[22:20:30] <PetefromTn_> just doesn't have Paul Walker in it and the girl is kind of an asian chick...
[22:20:41] <zeeshan> wish he didnt die
[22:20:43] <zeeshan> he was a cool guy
[22:21:03] <PetefromTn_> agreed it was a shame...
[22:21:11] <zeeshan> he wasnt even driving!
[22:21:17] <zeeshan> this is why i hate riding with my friends
[22:21:21] <zeeshan> when theyre in their fast cars
[22:21:41] <zeeshan> if im gonna die, itll be in my own hands!
[22:21:48] <zeeshan> in a racing accident that is
[22:21:48] <zeeshan> :P
[22:22:24] <PetefromTn_> what was the name of that alien movie?
[22:22:48] <zeeshan> district 13!!
[22:22:49] <zeeshan> :P
[22:23:13] <PetefromTn_> yeah but if you do a google search for that you get this movie I am watching right now..
[22:23:20] <zeeshan> fuck sorryu
[22:23:27] <zeeshan> district 13 is another movie
[22:23:29] <zeeshan> that is bad ass
[22:23:37] <zeeshan> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1136608/
[22:23:38] <zeeshan> there we go
[22:23:49] <PetefromTn_> That's the one LOL
[22:24:02] <zeeshan> lol the n ame got me too!
[22:24:03] <zeeshan> damnit
[22:24:20] <PetefromTn_> damn its not on netflix right now
[22:24:56] <PetefromTn_> this movie is EXACTLY like Brick Mansions I swear...
[22:25:08] <zeeshan> yea just with aliens
[22:25:08] <zeeshan> lol
[22:25:18] <zeeshan> i really liked it a lot
[22:25:18] <PetefromTn_> no there are no aliens!
[22:25:38] <zeeshan> in district 9 there is
[22:25:44] <PetefromTn_> I am talking about the District 13 compared to Brick Mansions.. it is the same damn movie LOL..
[22:25:48] <zeeshan> oh
[22:26:00] <PetefromTn_> instead of Paul Walker there is some shaved head french guy...
[22:26:27] <PetefromTn_> and instead of the black drug dealer guy there is a guido looking white guy...
[22:26:33] <zeeshan> lol
[22:27:41] <PetefromTn_> with subtitles heh
[22:29:06] <zeeshan> pete
[22:29:09] <zeeshan> have you watched the sphere?
[22:29:14] <zeeshan> "the sphere"
[22:29:20] <zeeshan> if you like sci fi movies
[22:29:20] <ssi> as opposed to "sphere"?
[22:29:21] <PetefromTn_> no I don't think so.
[22:29:23] <zeeshan> thats a good one
[22:29:26] <zeeshan> i highly recommend it
[22:29:31] <zeeshan> and another one is
[22:29:33] <zeeshan> "the abyss"
[22:29:38] <PetefromTn_> We watched a kevin Costner movie earlier
[22:29:42] <zeeshan> which one?
[22:29:43] <PetefromTn_> 3 days to die
[22:29:45] <zeeshan> hes awesome
[22:29:47] <PetefromTn_> it was pretty good
[22:29:49] <zeeshan> ah
[22:29:53] <zeeshan> i love his coastguard movie
[22:29:58] <PetefromTn_> I will see if sphere is in there
[22:30:02] <PetefromTn_> LOL
[22:30:08] <furrywolf> argh! too heavy!
[22:30:10] <PetefromTn_> I was IN the Coast Guard...
[22:30:14] <zeeshan> nice!
[22:30:24] <furrywolf> I decided to buy the planer. checked the manual, 460lbs.
[22:30:27] <ssi> PetefromTn_: did I tell you about getting interdicted by the coast guard on the gulf when I was on my sailing trip?
[22:30:38] <furrywolf> having someone to help unload would have made it much easier.
[22:30:43] <PetefromTn_> yeah you posted it on Facebook as I recall
[22:30:45] <ssi> heheh
[22:30:49] <ssi> those bastards are fast!
[22:31:16] <PetefromTn_> they have some fast boats most are just the motor lifeboat style.
[22:31:16] <ssi> it was one like this
[22:31:16] <ssi> http://www.davesems.com/files/USHLScggun.jpg
[22:31:27] <PetefromTn_> Oh an RHI
[22:31:30] <furrywolf> ssi: I solved the subaru airplane engine problem.
[22:31:48] <ssi> furrywolf: I hope your solution was "sell the subaru, buy a lycoming" ;)
[22:31:49] <PetefromTn_> we used to use the smaller version as a small boat to do boardings from our Coast Guard Cutter.
[22:32:30] <furrywolf> ssi: nope. subaru diesel! it has all the power at perfectly prop-matching rpms. :P
[22:32:33] <PetefromTn_> http://www.uscg.mil/pacarea/cgcsteadfast/img/ste_02.jpg I lived and served aboard this vessel for 2.5 years
[22:32:34] <furrywolf> and you can run it on jet-a.
[22:32:41] <ssi> getting closer
[22:32:46] <ssi> there are still problems though
[22:33:05] <ssi> the crank and thrust bearing probably won't hold up to airplane use
[22:33:27] <ssi> direct drive you have the entire static thrust pulling on the thrust bearing
[22:33:34] <ssi> plus there's the gyroscopic loads of the prop itself, which are significant
[22:34:06] <ssi> the front bearing in a lycomic is HUGE
[22:34:06] <furrywolf> hrmm. no idea what kind of thrust bearings it has. could probably rig up a couple bearings and a shaft coupler, or use a fixed-speed prop that already has bearings built into the hub around the hydraulic seals...
[22:34:46] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: what did you do
[22:34:49] <zeeshan> rescue missions?
[22:34:50] <furrywolf> you'd probably only need to add one bearing actually, and just adjust it well.
[22:34:53] <ssi> redrive would be necessary, and then you're adding the same sort of torsional resonance problems that led to issues with the PSRUs in the first place
[22:35:16] <ssi> trust me, you're not the first person to have this idea
[22:35:18] <PetefromTn_> yeah, rescue missions, drug interdiction, fisheries patrols...
[22:35:19] <ssi> we've talked about it at length
[22:35:24] <zeeshan> nice
[22:35:28] <zeeshan> which water body
[22:35:50] <furrywolf> someone else wanted to use the subaru diesel? most people don't know they exist...
[22:35:57] <ssi> not the subaru diesel
[22:36:00] <ssi> bmw diesel
[22:36:03] <ssi> vm diesel
[22:36:05] <ssi> it's been discussed
[22:36:06] <zeeshan> wtf
[22:36:11] <zeeshan> diesel in airplane?
[22:36:14] <zeeshan> asking for a plane crash
[22:36:15] <zeeshan> :-)
[22:36:18] <ssi> http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Field%20Overhaul/overhaul-Fig-4.png
[22:36:21] <ssi> three bearings
[22:36:27] <ssi> two regular mains and the front, which is like 4" long
[22:36:51] <ssi> and is thrust in both directions
[22:37:05] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/FRR33cJ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xloz7aU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/I6PFZmO.jpg
[22:37:16] <ssi> zeeshan: all jets run on diesel :P
[22:37:25] <ssi> there are diesel aircraft engines out there
[22:37:30] <ssi> thielert makes the most popular
[22:37:45] <zeeshan> lol
[22:37:47] <PetefromTn_> The USCGC Steadfast was patrolling the caribbean out of St. Petersburgh, Florida port
[22:37:48] <furrywolf> so bolt a pair of tapered roller bearings to the bellhousing, with a preload nut (with appropriate safety wire, etc), and shims to position it within the engine's endplay.
[22:38:05] <ssi> the diamond DA-42 twinstar uses thielert diesels
[22:38:09] <ssi> and it's a pile of problems
[22:38:14] <ssi> friend of mine did his multi training in one
[22:38:16] <PetefromTn_> It has since been decomissioned, redone, and recommissioned and it is now apparenlty up in washington state
[22:38:20] <zeeshan> um wtf
[22:38:22] <ssi> multi training consists of ten or so hours of simulated engine failures
[22:38:26] <zeeshan> you know those 1 plug into 3
[22:38:29] <zeeshan> things ?
[22:38:32] <zeeshan> mine just blew the fuck up
[22:38:32] <zeeshan> wtf
[22:38:35] * furrywolf realizes this looks remarkably like a car wheel hub, available from same donor vehicle. :P
[22:38:42] <ssi> the only thing tha makes a multi different than a single is what happens when an engine fails
[22:38:52] <ssi> well, he had three REAL engine failures in ten hours in a twinstar
[22:39:01] <ssi> one of them happened while he had the other one shut down and was landing
[22:39:05] <furrywolf> now I have got to bolt a wheel hub onto the back of an engine just to show it can be done. :P
[22:40:00] <ssi> furrywolf: it can be done, just remember that it has to be able to support a 600lb aluminum disk that's trying to bend 90 degrees away from the plane of rotation
[22:40:12] <PetefromTn_> I think I saw that Sphere movie actually Dustin Hoffman etc..
[22:40:19] <furrywolf> ssi: they can support a car being driven by rednecks on dirt roads.
[22:40:21] <zeeshan> yes PetefromTn_
[22:40:21] <zeeshan> tis old
[22:40:36] * furrywolf is such a redneck, and has bounced cars over plenty of waterbars at speed
[22:40:40] <ssi> yes but that's plain radial load
[22:40:44] <ssi> gyroscopic load is ugly
[22:40:48] <PetefromTn_> Good movie but I can't remember the story right offhand.
[22:40:54] <furrywolf> no different than when you crank the steering wheel around hard
[22:41:11] <zeeshan> ssi:
[22:41:15] <zeeshan> is this regarding using a subie engine
[22:41:17] <zeeshan> for a plane?
[22:41:18] <furrywolf> there's enough force on a sharply cornering car wheel to easily snap a prop at the hub.
[22:41:23] <zeeshan> or diesel engines?
[22:41:25] <ssi> zeeshan: yeah he's really hung up on it
[22:41:33] <zeeshan> well if you thrust is a big problem
[22:41:37] <furrywolf> nah, now I'm mostly just being annoying. :)
[22:41:38] <zeeshan> cant you buyild an adapter bearing
[22:41:39] <ssi> even though dozens of people have lost their airplanes and some their lives trying it
[22:41:41] * furrywolf can't afford to actually build a plane
[22:41:51] <zeeshan> for the extra loading
[22:41:57] <zeeshan> to reduce the loading on the crank
[22:42:03] <ssi> zeeshan: you can, but torsional resonances are an issue
[22:42:23] <ssi> and it's extra complexity
[22:42:29] <zeeshan> torsional resonance
[22:42:31] <furrywolf> from what I keep hearing about here, your standard GA engine is WORSE. we just has a pilot die a month or two ago after an engine failure, think it was in a cessna...
[22:42:36] <ssi> you know what else you could do? just design your engine for the application in the first place
[22:42:37] <zeeshan> as in a natural ferquency mode
[22:42:40] <zeeshan> thjat goes in twisting the crank ?
[22:42:51] <zeeshan> back and forth
[22:43:08] <zeeshan> yea, for air planes that makes the most sense
[22:43:10] <ssi> zeeshan: yes, there's complicated interplay between cylinder impulses and prop blade loading
[22:43:12] <zeeshan> retrofitting seems dangerous :P
[22:43:23] <furrywolf> so who wants to help me move this planer? it's 460lbs. I unloaded it from the car (subaru!) by myself, but it sucked.
[22:43:51] <ssi> zeeshan: they already exist direct drive, when you couple a redrive in the middle there's extra frequency modes to deal with
[22:43:58] <zeeshan> yea
[22:44:00] <zeeshan> extra dof
[22:44:22] <ssi> airplane engines have the crank desigcned to directly drive a prop, and have appropriate bearings for that load
[22:44:27] <ssi> car engines simply don't
[22:44:34] <ssi> they're designed to drive something via a spline
[22:44:38] <zeeshan> yea
[22:44:57] <ssi> so they have radial loads only, no significant thrust loads or bending loads
[22:45:40] <ssi> a 60lb prop is a huge gyroscope with a lot of energy, and if you perform a quick pitch up maneuver for instance, you get very large precession bending moments on the crank flange
[22:45:42] <furrywolf> airplane engines also cost more than the entire plane I'd be considering.
[22:45:53] <ssi> they cost less than a PSRU for a subaru
[22:46:14] <furrywolf> right, which is why I thought of a low-rpm subaru motor. :P
[22:46:38] <ssi> how low
[22:47:16] <furrywolf> peak torque is 1800rpm, trying to find a power curve but not seeing one.
[22:47:32] <ssi> how much power at 2700rpm
[22:47:45] <ssi> and how much does the engine weigh
[22:47:56] <ssi> and how much would the cooling system weigh, including the coolant
[22:48:52] <furrywolf> http://rototest-research.eu/spec/view/png/graph/STR-08100601-kW-Nm-C.png like that, apparantly. 2700rpm approximately 95kw, or 130-ish hp.
[22:49:17] <furrywolf> actually, that's measured at the rear wheels, engine output will be higher.
[22:49:54] <furrywolf> the upper grey line I guess is estimate at engine
[22:49:56] <ssi> ok let's be generous and say it's comparable to a 150hp O320
[22:50:19] <furrywolf> no, the grey line is subaru's published spec. my bad.
[22:50:58] <furrywolf> that's a '08, they've improved them a little since then.
[22:52:22] <ssi> how much is it going to cost to acquire the engine?
[22:52:26] <ssi> how much does it weigh
[22:52:44] <ssi> how much is it going to cost to build a redrive for it
[22:52:58] <furrywolf> not finding a weight... one person estimates 300lbs, which seems a little heavy.
[22:53:06] <ssi> sounds about right
[22:53:11] <ssi> diesels are heavy
[22:53:15] <ssi> iron blocks generally
[22:53:37] <ssi> what's the displacement on it?
[22:53:54] <furrywolf> ok, found a spec saying it's 380lbs complete including exhaust. would be stripping a lot of that off for non-car use. don't need a/c, etc.
[22:54:10] <furrywolf> and probably a much much simpler exhaust, without particulate filter and cats...
[22:54:14] <furrywolf> 2.0L
[22:54:27] <ssi> does that include cooling system?
[22:54:29] <furrywolf> it's all aluminum. I don't know if subaru ever made an iron engine. :)
[22:54:30] <ssi> probably not
[22:54:47] <ssi> let's call it a wash and say teh cooling system INCLUDING COOLANT will weigh what the stuff you removed did
[22:55:04] <ssi> O320 is 244lb dry
[22:55:15] <ssi> so you're 136lb heavier right from the start
[22:55:46] <ssi> if you scrounge (and considering you built your airplane from scrap metal, I'd say that's likely), you can get a perfectly serviceable O320 for about $3000
[22:56:15] <ssi> I paid twice that for a 200hp anglevalve IO360
[22:56:28] <ssi> which is the most expensive lycoming 4cyl in existence
[22:56:32] <ssi> they're about 60k new
[22:57:17] <ssi> so anyway, I dunno how much your subie diesel (which doesn't exist in the US) cost you to acquire
[22:57:34] <ssi> and I dunno how much time and effort and money goes into building the redrive to make it suitable to drive a prop
[22:57:53] <ssi> but I do know that now you're trusting your safety to a redrive that you designed and built
[22:57:58] <ssi> I hope you at least got zeeshan to look over the design
[22:58:04] <ssi> since everyone knows he's the ace ME
[22:58:25] <furrywolf> how much do you save with the lower fuel requirements? kerosene is marginally heavier than avgas, but you might get rather impressively low fuel consumption. on a thread on a diesel conversion done to a cessna, consumption dropped from 11gph to 8gph...
[22:58:50] <ssi> O320s only burn 7-8gph to begin with
[22:59:10] <furrywolf> also, no fair comparing a dry weight to a wet weight. :P
[22:59:31] <ssi> was your weight wet weight?
[22:59:36] <ssi> cause the only difference in a lyco is the oil
[22:59:39] <ssi> it's air cooled remember
[22:59:51] <ssi> I figured your number was dry also, wrt oil
[23:00:06] <ssi> here's where it gets fun
[23:00:24] <ssi> the CH701 is nominally 580lb empty, 1100lb gross
[23:00:38] <ssi> and that's with a 185lb engine
[23:00:49] <ssi> so your engine will weigh TWO HUNDRED POUNDS more
[23:00:55] <ssi> which means you can take one fewer passenger :D
[23:01:23] <furrywolf> heh
[23:01:24] <ssi> your engine will add almost 50% to the empty weight of the airplane
[23:01:48] <furrywolf> the ch701 also has a big warning not to use an engine over 100hp, and says it's fine at 50hp, so it's obviously more suited to a larger plane.
[23:02:01] <ssi> sure, so let's say RV6 instead
[23:02:08] <ssi> I've been flying an RV6 with a 150hp O320 on it
[23:02:17] <ssi> it's 980lb empty, 1600lb gross
[23:02:26] <ssi> still adding 20% to the empty weight
[23:02:36] <ssi> as an amusing anecdote
[23:02:47] <ssi> with the lyco it does 155kt on 150hp
[23:02:54] <furrywolf> the ch701 I like because it's the only plane I've seen that looks like it can be built with exactly zero specialist tools.
[23:02:54] <ssi> it was originally built as a subaru
[23:03:06] <ssi> and according to the records he registered it with the horsepower listed as 400
[23:03:23] <ssi> according to the owner, the original builder said it never flew faster than 117kt
[23:03:45] <PetefromTn_> well I better go get this kerosene filled BBL
[23:03:51] <furrywolf> ... 400 from a subaru motor?
[23:03:59] <ssi> yea I dunno, that's just how he registered it :)
[23:04:06] <ssi> either way, 117kt in an RV is absurdly slow
[23:04:12] <ssi> I blame the radiators in the lower wing skins
[23:04:28] <ssi> 155kt in the RV6 is actually on the slow side
[23:04:35] <ssi> it's a simple build, fixed pitch wood sterba prop
[23:04:39] <ssi> 150hp
[23:04:51] <ssi> my RV7 is set up 200hp, constant speed hartzell, and I expect 185-190kt
[23:05:27] <ssi> anyway... I'm honestly not trying to piss in your cheerios
[23:05:33] * furrywolf expects not to be able to afford any of them
[23:05:38] <ssi> there are people out there who have built and flown subie powered planes
[23:05:45] <ssi> and some of those people are happy with them
[23:05:59] <ssi> but LOTS of those people are not happy with them
[23:06:02] <furrywolf> yeah, found one guy saying he's got 1300hrs on it with no work whatsoever...
[23:06:06] <ssi> and some of them are dead
[23:06:23] <ssi> same goes for LS1 conversions
[23:06:35] <ssi> the best auto conversions out there are the corvair and aerovee and such
[23:06:54] <furrywolf> I'd never put a chevy in an airplane. I like staying in the air. :P
[23:06:59] <ssi> same here
[23:07:03] <ssi> but I also say the same thing about subies :)
[23:07:11] <ssi> and like I said earlier, it's no knock against subaru
[23:07:15] <ssi> they build a decent engine
[23:07:20] <ssi> but they don't build airplane engines
[23:07:25] <ssi> I bet if they did, they'd be excellent
[23:07:44] <ssi> but they build engines which are suited to a task that is drastically different than the conversions use them for
[23:07:50] <ssi> already harped on bearing issues
[23:07:54] <ssi> there's also duty cycle issues
[23:08:04] <ssi> a lyco will run 100% power for 2000 hours in really shitty adverse conditions
[23:08:09] <ssi> will a subie?
[23:08:20] <furrywolf> yes. :)
[23:08:24] <ssi> you sure about that?
[23:08:35] <furrywolf> I've lugged mine up enough hills 8 hours a day...
[23:08:50] <furrywolf> I used to drive an ea81 1000mi/week in the hills.
[23:08:56] <ssi> I seriously doubt you actually managed to lug up a hill without stopping at >75% power for 8 hours
[23:09:03] <ssi> because that's exactly what airplane engines do
[23:09:13] <furrywolf> no, but 30 mins, yes.
[23:09:16] <ssi> not the same
[23:09:45] <ssi> most airplane engines will go five or six or eight hours at 75% power and not reduce below tchat til it's time to land
[23:09:51] <ssi> and that's standard operating profile
[23:09:52] <furrywolf> yes, I know this.
[23:10:10] <ssi> they're huge bore, low-rpm, high clearance engines
[23:10:16] <ssi> they're extremely simple
[23:10:24] <ssi> no electrical requirement whatsoever
[23:10:38] <Valen> magnetos do crap out sometimes though ;-P
[23:10:43] <ssi> they sure do
[23:10:47] <furrywolf> hrmm, yeah, the diesel has some pretty steep electrical...
[23:10:48] <ssi> and that's why we have two of them :)
[23:10:51] <ssi> and check them every flight
[23:11:18] <Valen> you know I would rate a modern electrical engine against many aero engines in terms of reliability
[23:11:32] <furrywolf> of course, it's no worse than fadec... except automotive grade isn't quite aerospace grade when it comes to testing. :)
[23:11:48] <ssi> the thielert issues I was talking about earlier were largely related to fadec
[23:11:50] <SpeedEvil> And it all doesn't help if the pilots turn off the wrong one.
[23:12:00] <ssi> its fadec system shuts the engine down if any abnormal condition arises
[23:12:05] <ssi> which is not a good thing in an airplane
[23:12:08] <furrywolf> Valen: I would too. you're always hearing about light airplanes having engine failures, despite having very expensive purpose-built engines.
[23:12:26] <Valen> I think much of the issue is with them getting pulled apart all the time
[23:12:40] <furrywolf> as I said earlier, we had a pilot die here a month or two ago due to an engine failure... he tried ditching in a river and didn't make it.
[23:12:45] <ssi> yeah they don't usually run news stories about the cessna that went 4000 hours without an overhaul
[23:12:58] <ssi> not even on slow news days :P
[23:14:10] <ssi> here's a fun stat
[23:14:26] <ssi> However, most NTSB accident reports list the type of engine. We can easily determine how often a loss of power was the cause of the accident, and compare the rates for traditionally powered aircraft with those mounting auto-engine conversions. Obviously, a higher percentage means a higher relative number of engine failures.
[23:14:27] <furrywolf> most engine failures are due to forgetting to add fuel? :P
[23:14:28] <Valen> but an automotive engine doing 4000 hours (200,000km / 50km/hr) without anything more than oil and plugs is a non event
[23:14:31] <ssi> While we’re at it, let’s show the two-stroke engine results as well.
[23:14:33] <ssi> Traditional Aircraft Engines: 12.2%
[23:14:33] <ssi> Two-Stroke Engines: 28.9%
[23:14:34] <ssi> Auto Engine Conversions: 30.5%
[23:15:03] <Valen> I'm not saying to use an auto engine in a plane, in drop in type conversion
[23:15:24] <ssi> it's just not apples to apples
[23:15:44] <ssi> 4000 hours in an airplane is a lifetime
[23:15:45] <ssi> literally
[23:15:47] <Valen> I was suggesting updating an aero engine with fuel injection, VCT, all those good things wouldn't inherently be a bad thing
[23:15:54] <ssi> my 1973 cherokee has about 4000 hours total time on the airframe
[23:16:03] <ssi> they've had fuel injection since the 30s
[23:16:09] <ssi> VCT isn't useful in an airplane engine
[23:16:14] <ssi> even the subie guys rip it out
[23:16:41] <Valen> I guess if you sit at the one RPM all the time
[23:16:43] <ssi> about the only significant upgrade to current airplane engines is electronic ignition
[23:16:47] <ssi> exactly
[23:17:02] <Valen> why would electronic ignition be better than a magneto at a fixed RPM?
[23:17:15] <ssi> because magnetos have fixed timing
[23:17:23] <furrywolf> 4000 is a lifetime? the ones at work all have >30000...
[23:17:24] <ssi> airplane engines don't run at a fixed RPM, they run at constant RPM
[23:17:25] <ssi> it's not the same :)
[23:17:45] <ssi> furrywolf: let me know when you've surpassed 4000 hours
[23:17:55] <Valen> what is the difference?
[23:18:11] <furrywolf> of course, they've been through more than a few rebuilds... one of them they let get so bad that on a still day, you could see exactly where it taxied by the opaque blue trail...
[23:18:37] <ssi> Valen: running 2500rpm for two hours, then running 2300rpm
[23:18:39] <ssi> for two hours
[23:18:54] <ssi> it didn't run "at a fixed rpm", it ran at several different rpms
[23:19:06] <Valen> VCT would help then ;-P
[23:19:06] <ssi> but the speed was constant for the duration
[23:19:15] <ssi> not enough to justify the complexity
[23:19:36] <ssi> electronic ignition has proven gains
[23:19:46] <ssi> hotter spark, finer control over timing for EGT and power
[23:19:47] <Valen> heres one I've always wondered, why don't they run mufflers on the exhaust of light aircraft?
[23:19:51] <ssi> teh ability to run auto plugs
[23:19:58] <ssi> most have mufflers
[23:19:59] <ssi> some don't
[23:20:27] <ssi> my cherokee has one stock, mine's ben upgraded with an aftermarket exhaust with tuned muffler that adds a fair bit of power
[23:20:34] <ssi> my rv has no muffler, striaght four pipe exhaust
[23:20:37] <ssi> and it's loud as balls
[23:20:41] <Valen> one to make it quieter i mean ;-P
[23:20:53] <ssi> it's not a loudener :P
[23:20:55] <Valen> the ones I've seen all seem to just have the 4 pipes ;->
[23:20:56] <ssi> it's a muffler
[23:21:20] <ssi> which ones have you seen? :P
[23:21:45] <Valen> mostly cesnas from a decade ago when I did my student pilots licence ;->
[23:22:22] <ssi> I am pretty sure 172s have mufflers
[23:22:47] <ssi> http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/DRW-33/DSC01010.jpg
[23:23:15] <Valen> I have been pondering an aircraft, (experimental) for speed and giggles
[23:23:25] <ssi> do it
[23:23:41] <ssi> experimental is the way to go
[23:24:00] * furrywolf thinks aircraft are still reserved for rich people
[23:24:01] <Valen> lightweight auto engine + modest battery pack (15 minutes or so flight time) and electric powered props
[23:24:11] <Valen> prop rather
[23:24:19] <ssi> battery pack?
[23:24:20] <furrywolf> hybrid offers no benefit to airplanes
[23:24:46] <ssi> agreed
[23:24:48] <furrywolf> hybrid is good for frequent speed and power changes. see above discussion about keeping constant rpm hours at a time.
[23:24:49] <Valen> the idea was for it to be quiet getting on and off the ground so as not to upset the neighbours
[23:24:49] <ssi> think energy density
[23:25:01] <ssi> half the noise is the prop
[23:25:09] <Valen> right, so its half the noise ;->
[23:25:17] <Valen> but thats not the giggles part
[23:25:23] <ssi> get better neighbors :P
[23:25:30] <furrywolf> I think more than half is the prop...
[23:25:47] <Valen> the giggles part would be when you fire up the ramjet ;->
[23:26:07] <Valen> did i mention making the thing out of stainless?
[23:26:11] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf2gquYDBss
[23:26:31] <ssi> sonex makes some ugly ass airplanes :)
[23:26:43] <Valen> that is ugly
[23:26:56] <furrywolf> jet airplanes have a history of dead test pilots. just saying.
[23:26:58] <Valen> and it has a terrible rattle there
[23:27:08] <ssi> it's not much quieter than an equivalently powered gas burner
[23:27:09] <furrywolf> ramjet
[23:27:19] <furrywolf> and rocket
[23:27:26] <Valen> furrywolf: the best part is you pretty much need to be supersonic for it to work ;->
[23:27:43] <Valen> actually listening to that thing take off it was pretty darn quiet
[23:28:02] <ssi> at that distance though, it's not much quieter
[23:28:11] * Valen used to live under the flight path of a light aircraft airport, that thing is way quiet lol
[23:28:41] <ssi> it's only 80hp
[23:28:50] <Valen> I think its the tone of it, the noise is "smooth" if you will
[23:28:54] <ssi> a 75hp cub is just as quiet
[23:29:02] <Valen> no bangy noises
[23:29:46] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BY4mDAiy6Q
[23:29:51] <Valen> The other reason for having the hybrid system was fault tolerance, you can handle one electric motor failing, the petrol engine failing or the battery pack failing
[23:30:06] <ssi> so what, twin props?
[23:30:18] <Valen> 2 motors one shaft
[23:30:28] <Valen> if you fry a motor you can still spin it as a rule
[23:30:32] <ssi> two electric motors on one shaft, plus the engine is just a generator?
[23:30:45] <Valen> that was my plan yeah
[23:30:57] <Valen> lots more bits to go wrong of course
[23:31:00] <ssi> I think the engineering on that is gonna get away from you in a hurry :)
[23:31:03] <furrywolf> crap efficiency, too.
[23:31:15] <ssi> weight is a real thing!
[23:31:36] <ssi> how much power do you anticipate per motor
[23:31:45] <furrywolf> 1/2 engine. :P
[23:31:46] <Valen> furrywolf: in the dream aeroplane the goal of all that crap was to get off the ground, to altitude and off the coast
[23:32:05] <Valen> ssi: no maths been done, only fantasy so far ;->
[23:32:13] <ssi> and fantasy it's likely to stay :)
[23:32:17] <Valen> it wasn't going to be a small craft by any stretch
[23:32:20] <Valen> most likley ;->
[23:32:37] <ssi> the challenges go up exponentially with weight
[23:32:38] <furrywolf> see, at least my mental designs would result in a functioning aircraft. :P
[23:32:45] <ssi> furrywolf: yeah you're closer to sanity
[23:32:49] <Valen> furrywolf: once off the coast you dive to gain speed then light the ramjet ;->
[23:32:53] <ssi> but still not in the realm of practicality
[23:32:59] <Valen> ssi: mine is *way* more fun though right?
[23:33:09] <ssi> parts of it are
[23:33:14] <ssi> I'm not crazy about the hybrid thing
[23:33:21] <ssi> electric systems have crap energy density
[23:33:21] <Valen> I wasn't wedded to it
[23:33:32] <Valen> it's not going to be a small craft anyway
[23:33:45] <ssi> now you're carrying battery packs with crap power density, plus fuel for the genny, plus fuel for the ramget
[23:33:52] <ssi> plus FOUR engines
[23:34:12] <ssi> I'd love to have you put some numbers down and start working the math
[23:34:16] <ssi> the math on this stuff is enlightening :)
[23:34:22] <ssi> see what I want to do
[23:34:28] <Valen> or enheavying as the case may be?
[23:34:32] <furrywolf> skip the ramjet and go nuclear thermal... refuel every ten years. :P
[23:34:35] <ssi> is design and build a single seat airplane with a spitfire planform
[23:34:45] <ssi> retractable gear, 180-210hp
[23:34:48] <ssi> and make it go 350mph
[23:34:48] <furrywolf> lol
[23:34:50] <ssi> that's my goal
[23:34:53] <SpeedEvil> Ramjets are _hideously_ fuel inefficient at under mach 2
[23:34:57] <ssi> and it's steeped in reality
[23:35:07] <Valen> certain regulatory issues with that one furrywolf, though locmart are working on it ;-P
[23:35:39] <SpeedEvil> ssi: full sale?
[23:35:41] <Valen> SpeedEvil: yep ;-> lots of nice heat tolerant stainless steel in the construction ;->
[23:35:42] <ssi> yes
[23:36:14] <ssi> I want to build a seat mockup, put my wide ass in it, and esentially design the cockpit around me
[23:36:16] <SpeedEvil> ssi: Well - 1500hp or so is needed
[23:36:18] <ssi> then design the airplane around the cabin
[23:36:27] <ssi> SpeedEvil: how do you figure?
[23:36:34] <ssi> oh I don't mean fullscale as in spitfire sized
[23:36:41] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:36:43] <ssi> I thought you meant full scale as opposed to RC
[23:37:01] <ssi> I just want to borrow the planform
[23:37:02] <ssi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire#mediaviewer/File:Spitfire_mk2a_p7350_arp.jpg
[23:37:06] <furrywolf> ssi: now, for experimental craft, I want to build an external-energy-source rocket.
[23:37:21] <Valen> ssi: any paticular reason?
[23:37:22] <ssi> spitfires are 1500hp because they're HEAVY
[23:37:28] <ssi> 6700lb MTOW
[23:37:38] <ssi> Valen: because it's BEAUTIFUL
[23:37:44] <furrywolf> first stage will be an externally heated jet engine... :P
[23:37:45] <ssi> Valen: because the elliptical wing is the most efficient
[23:37:47] <Valen> that is totally a legit reason ;->
[23:37:50] <ssi> theoretically perfect lift distribution
[23:38:06] <Valen> I like the noise of the merlin too much though ;->
[23:38:14] <Valen> (now *that* would piss off the neighbours)
[23:38:22] <ssi> I can't afford a merlin
[23:38:29] <ssi> I want to go 350mph on a 4cyl lycoming
[23:38:32] <ssi> which I can afford :)
[23:38:54] <ssi> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_Nemesis
[23:38:57] <ssi> is proof that it's feasible
[23:39:01] <ssi> 292mph on 100hp
[23:39:04] <Valen> this is totally worth the 3 minutes with headphones on btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6c3v9iihgw
[23:39:20] <Valen> no music or any crap over them
[23:39:30] <ssi> Valen: we don't get many spits in the US
[23:39:37] <ssi> I've seen two togehter in person, that's it
[23:39:49] <ssi> but I have watched fifty P51 mustangs start, taxi out, and takeoff together
[23:39:59] <ssi> in person
[23:40:00] <Valen> I've only ever seen one i think in person, not flying
[23:40:22] <Valen> I'd love to hear one do a flyover, without some asshat blasting noise over it
[23:40:45] <ssi> https://plus.google.com/photos/109878413921179873667/albums/5636833338900729857?banner=pwa
[23:40:50] * furrywolf likes quiet
[23:41:01] <Valen> I do too, but I still love that sound
[23:41:27] <ssi> there's nothing like it
[23:41:44] <ssi> radials too
[23:41:46] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9gWEdzIEAAs-BB.jpg:large
[23:41:50] <ssi> I got to fly that last weekend :D
[23:42:37] <Valen> you better paint it in cammo and put some pipes sticking out of the wings ;->
[23:42:43] <ssi> heheh
[23:42:53] <ssi> i probably will have to do a spit scheme if I build the damn thing
[23:42:54] <ssi> would be amazing
[23:43:32] <Valen> how would you go about getting a ramjet aircraft off the ground and up to a decent altitude in a way not likely to cost squillions?
[23:44:05] <ssi> I'd try to build a DIY version of the J58 :)
[23:44:38] <ssi> start with a small low- or no- bypass jet of some kind
[23:44:39] <Valen> hah *way* too complex
[23:44:58] <ssi> and try to come up with the ability to make it scram capable
[23:44:59] <ssi> I dunno
[23:45:00] <ssi> hehe
[23:45:24] <ssi> I don't tend to think beyond mach 1
[23:45:36] <ssi> there's a lot more problems there than just ghetting it off the ground and to altitude :)
[23:46:08] <ssi> I'm pretty good at this stuff for someone who's not an actual AE, but I'm not that good
[23:46:27] * furrywolf is pretty good at rednecking things
[23:47:04] <ssi> rednecking airplanes happens, but you have to be a bit more cautious :)
[23:47:26] <furrywolf> from what I've seen at the local ga field, it happens fairly often. :P
[23:47:42] <SpeedEvil> ssi: http://www.monfortonpress.com/ oooh
[23:47:58] <ssi> furrywolf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkXX2Gu-bfg
[23:48:14] <ssi> SpeedEvil: nice :D
[23:49:06] <SpeedEvil> The spitfire cockpit doesn't look 'roomy' - if you want to simply scale it.
[23:49:24] <furrywolf> yeah, that's fairly redneck.
[23:49:31] <Valen> I was liking that with my setup was the redundancy, lots of things can break without causing you to go splat by necessity ;->
[23:49:38] <ssi> I don't really intend to build a scale spit
[23:49:42] <ssi> just borrow its planform
[23:49:48] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:50:17] <SpeedEvil> Can always go multi-engine.
[23:50:18] <SpeedEvil> http://www.electravia.fr/CriCri/fwztu_ip01.png
[23:51:17] <ssi> I can't fit my ass in a cricri
[23:51:41] <ssi> the original cricri design used chainsaw engines :D
[23:52:01] <ssi> also the designer won't sell plans to americans anymore because he thinks they're too litigious
[23:52:04] <ssi> he's probably not wrong :P
[23:52:18] <furrywolf> some chainsaws have an impressive power/weight ratio. my 80cc mcculloch was scary...
[23:52:30] <Valen> I was estimating my fantasy plane would probably weigh something in the 5000-8000kg range btw
[23:52:43] <Valen> I was somewhat basing it off the lockheed D-21
[23:52:53] <SpeedEvil> ssi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kKRjcE9Vnk - wood powered chainsaw
[23:53:11] <ssi> Valen: lawd
[23:53:21] <Valen> hey if you are gonna do it ;->
[23:53:34] <furrywolf> why stop there? build a sr-71 clone to get your ramjet up to speed
[23:53:37] <ssi> that's so heavy you'd need a type rating to fly it
[23:53:39] <Valen> http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/071025-F-1234S-009.jpg
[23:53:47] <ssi> >12,500lb requires a type rating
[23:53:52] <Valen> dang :-<
[23:54:17] <Valen> well that does squeek in the lower end, 5669kg ;->
[23:54:24] <SpeedEvil> There is a bug in the UK air regulations.
[23:54:25] <Valen> D-21 is only 5000 ;->
[23:54:35] <SpeedEvil> You can take a 10kg quadcopter, take off.
[23:54:36] <ssi> yea that's only 11,000lb
[23:54:42] <Valen> and I was thinking shorter range
[23:54:42] <ssi> so you'd sneak in under the type rating limit :P
[23:54:44] <Valen> and lower speed
[23:54:47] <ssi> but that's TEN TIMES what my RV7 weighs
[23:54:56] <SpeedEvil> Now, winch up more engines and props and fuel tanks. And then a seat and a pilot.
[23:55:10] <SpeedEvil> And you're still an unmanned small aircraft that is exempt and under the same rules as RC
[23:55:14] <ssi> so I hope you're planning on 3000hp or more
[23:55:27] <SpeedEvil> And has basically no rules.
[23:55:30] <ssi> SpeedEvil: that's just silly
[23:55:35] <furrywolf> lol @ the wood gas chainsaw
[23:55:51] <SpeedEvil> Silly, but legal. (for a very short period till they change it)
[23:55:55] <furrywolf> the satellite tv dish mast chimney is great.
[23:56:09] <ssi> in the US there are very few regs on ultralights
[23:56:13] <Valen> I imagine you would wind up falling afowl of their general "don't be a dick" regulations ;-P
[23:56:17] <ssi> but ultralights are pretty fucking light
[23:56:28] <ssi> I think it's like 254lb empty, 510lb gross
[23:56:30] <ssi> something like that
[23:56:30] <SpeedEvil> Valen: there aren't any - I've read the whole regulations.
[23:56:47] <Valen> there is nothing there about "dangerous operation" or anything like that?
[23:56:53] <Valen> endangering the public
[23:56:55] <SpeedEvil> Valen: yes, there is.
[23:56:55] <ssi> and being a big guy, I can't imagine flying an airplane that weighs less than I do
[23:57:21] <Valen> ssi: they have ultralight rules here that are similar, they do rather feel yiccky in that sense ;->
[23:57:23] <SpeedEvil> Valen: the fun part is that the 'model aircraft' bits say all of the rest of the regulations don't apply as long as you're a model airraft
[23:57:36] <SpeedEvil> Valen: and the above fits unambiguously into the definition
[23:58:30] <ssi> I kinda want to build tnhis wood gas chainsaw
[23:58:31] <ssi> amazing
[23:58:37] <ssi> you can use it to cut up fuel for itself
[23:58:37] <Valen> so there's nothing saying you can't operate a model aircraft in a way that endangers the public?
[23:58:52] <ssi> need to build a bigger robot that can run around and devour forests simply to power its own destructive needs
[23:58:53] <SpeedEvil> Valen: it's not quite framed that way.
[23:59:11] <SpeedEvil> Valen: It's 'you must not fly it over people or houses (paraphrasing)
[23:59:24] <Valen> pretty sure they would get you even on laws not relating to aircraft
[23:59:33] <Valen> "disturbing public order"
[23:59:48] <ssi> SpeedEvil: in the US, the federal aviation regs are almost exclusively written to regulate things which endanger other people and property
[23:59:53] <ssi> they could care less about whether you kill yourself