#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-02-05

[00:00:06] <furrywolf> it runs to the big diode next to it, and where else?
[00:00:14] <renesis> the big transistor and the little sot23 to the right near the top
[00:00:21] <renesis> something baked there
[00:00:46] <renesis> which is consistent with the pwm getting stuck on and the transistor blowing open
[00:01:20] <zeeshan> what drives me insane is my x and y drives
[00:01:22] <renesis> whats the temp in your cabinet and whats ambient temp this is rated for?
[00:01:26] <zeeshan> have gone through the same number of power cycles
[00:01:28] <zeeshan> and they ahvent blown
[00:01:32] <renesis> theyre different drives
[00:01:34] <zeeshan> renesis: very f'in cold
[00:01:39] <zeeshan> renesis: they're the same drives
[00:01:39] <furrywolf> the transistor didn't blow option. it blew the capacitors because it was shorted.
[00:01:42] <zeeshan> same model.
[00:01:47] <renesis> old pwm smps are like snowflakes
[00:01:48] <zeeshan> same rev
[00:01:57] <furrywolf> s/option/open
[00:02:03] <renesis> every new batch of parts could make them behave differently
[00:02:09] <zeeshan> furrywolf: trying to trace the right leg of inductor
[00:02:22] <furrywolf> you might need to look under the inductor to see where the traces one... I mostly want to know if it runs to the big transistor.
[00:02:26] <renesis> caps look fine in the second blowout?
[00:02:43] <furrywolf> different caps exploded the second time. probably same initial failure.
[00:02:48] <renesis> nothing looks damaged except the overheated area and transistor
[00:03:33] <renesis> also those smd ceramics are known to fail intermittenly in heavy vibration environments
[00:03:36] <bobo_> wonder if there is a sequence start up of the switching supplies ?
[00:03:38] <furrywolf> the failure could well have started somewhere else, with whatever voltage rail the regulator steps down going over or negative.
[00:03:39] <renesis> mostly the higher value ones
[00:03:57] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/DHNQJCv.jpg
[00:04:03] <zeeshan> right leg of inductor goes to that thing called
[00:04:04] <renesis> they make flex term automotive grade ones because of it, and given all the numbers are scraped off this, i doubt they did that
[00:04:04] <zeeshan> t01 c228
[00:04:09] <zeeshan> then it goes to the cap
[00:04:15] <zeeshan> on the very top right
[00:04:18] <furrywolf> vibration did not cause two drives to fail in the exact same fashion during power switching.
[00:04:26] <renesis> sure it would
[00:04:27] <zeeshan> then there is a trace that dissapears under the black ic.
[00:04:32] <renesis> happens in subwoofers with smps
[00:04:37] <zeeshan> renesis: stop it
[00:04:56] <zeeshan> no arguing!
[00:04:58] <renesis> stop what
[00:05:07] <renesis> dude, welcome to engineering and troubleshooting
[00:05:23] <zeeshan> furrywolf: does that help?
[00:05:53] <furrywolf> where else does it go?
[00:06:07] <renesis> anyway, im with bobo and the two other people who suspect power sequencing issues with the smps
[00:06:20] <renesis> which means anything near the smps chip could be the cause
[00:07:01] <furrywolf> why do you suspect that? I can think of lots of other causes.
[00:07:14] <renesis> because its a common issue and it hasnt been eliminated
[00:07:21] <renesis> because the damage is consistent with it
[00:07:26] <renesis> because it happens during power cycling
[00:07:27] <furrywolf> the 15v could be the gate drive for the outputs, and a blown output mosfet gate oxide could be dumping mains back into the gate supply.
[00:07:50] <furrywolf> right, but if it were a design issue like that, it'd affect all the drives, not just ones connected to the z motor.
[00:08:06] <Jymmm> evil mosfets
[00:08:12] <renesis> theyre different drives, no?
[00:08:25] <renesis> the circuit is the same? the enclosures arent and thatll effect it
[00:08:37] <furrywolf> or it could be bucking another internal rail, and that rail is going overvoltage or going negative on shutdown.
[00:08:39] <renesis> we fixed the issue on one pcb by adding a boss to reduce pcb trampolining
[00:08:47] <zeeshan> furrywolf: http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png
[00:08:50] <zeeshan> this is all i can make ou t
[00:08:54] <zeeshan> i think it connects to that chip.
[00:09:23] <renesis> ha
[00:09:30] <renesis> these chips are laser etched
[00:09:36] <renesis> the others ones look sanded
[00:10:21] <unfy> that's it
[00:10:34] <renesis> zeeshan: http://www.ti.com/product/tl494
[00:10:42] <renesis> check pinouts against that datasheet
[00:11:04] <unfy> i'm gonna make me a interface dongle to translate colemak keystrokes into qwerty. this whole back and forth between keyboard layouts here at work for the last few days is driving me bonkers.
[00:11:16] <renesis> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00000958.pdf
[00:11:20] <renesis> and that guy
[00:11:50] <renesis> there are more smps based on those than anything else, and your pinout matches
[00:11:59] <renesis> laters
[00:12:53] <bobo_> zeeshan if you get a chance measure discharge time /volt of the big cap's ---175 ? VDC ones
[00:13:12] <zeeshan> bobo_: im wearing a face shield working on this
[00:13:13] <zeeshan> lol
[00:13:17] <zeeshan> everytime i discharge it
[00:13:19] <zeeshan> i expect it to blow up
[00:13:22] <zeeshan> but it hasnt so far
[00:13:23] <furrywolf> I'm failing at crossreferencing t01 c228, but my suspicion is a schottky diode.
[00:15:16] <bobo_> my thought is let it discharge for some time ----no fast power cycle
[00:15:34] <zeeshan> i have a q
[00:15:36] <furrywolf> this board is intentionally designed to be as difficult as possible to work on.
[00:15:38] <zeeshan> if it is a smps failure
[00:15:49] <zeeshan> will it also destroy those small dinky caps?
[00:15:54] <zeeshan> that happened in my second failure
[00:15:55] <renesis> furrywolf: last thing, i think you would have to concede that something with wiped chip labels could have sourcing or manufacturing issues as easily as design issues, which definitely could affect only some units. kind of the definition of that type of problem
[00:16:20] <bobo_> yes
[00:16:27] <renesis> werent the dinky caps on the regulated side?
[00:16:29] <furrywolf> the smps could fail due to a design flaw, like renesis thinks, or it could fail because power was fed back into its output, or its input could have gone overvoltage or negative.
[00:16:38] <renesis> could have overvolted them
[00:16:40] <zeeshan> well they measure 12.5 v
[00:16:47] <zeeshan> currently
[00:16:48] <furrywolf> if it failed such that the input ran to the output, EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT on its output could be fried.
[00:17:14] <zeeshan> two smps failures in a row
[00:17:17] <zeeshan> seems so weird.
[00:17:17] <zeeshan> :(
[00:17:39] <furrywolf> like I said earlier, if that supply runs the gate drives, a shorted motor could be blowing an output fet which could be dumping mains back into the gate drivers and back to the supply...
[00:17:46] <renesis> not if youre producing conditions that the sequencing isnt immune to
[00:17:59] <zeeshan> well
[00:18:02] <furrywolf> or, if it regulates down another rail, a different failure could be making that rail go overvoltage, or negative.
[00:18:02] <zeeshan> then x and y should blow too
[00:18:04] <zeeshan> in that case
[00:18:15] <renesis> so to check furrys idea, you could pull the fet and check for normal operation
[00:18:22] <renesis> if you have bench supplys
[00:18:31] <furrywolf> the parts are sanded to make it slightly harder for china to produce clones
[00:18:42] <zeeshan> which FET?
[00:18:43] <renesis> zeeshan: x and y are diff drives, no?
[00:18:47] <renesis> the output fet
[00:18:51] <zeeshan> renesis: for the 2nd time!!
[00:18:54] <zeeshan> they are the same!!
[00:18:55] <zeeshan> :P
[00:18:58] <furrywolf> If it is a SMPS issue, you need an oscilloscope to do any real work.
[00:19:07] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he seems to ignore 95% of what people say.
[00:19:21] <zeeshan> furrywolf: so, just to make you repeat again
[00:19:23] <zeeshan> and pull a ren
[00:19:30] <zeeshan> you're saying that if my motor coils are shorted
[00:19:35] <zeeshan> this is the exact type of failure i'd see
[00:19:37] <furrywolf> at this point a 'scope is probably required anyway, since everything to do with smps or transients needs one.
[00:19:46] <renesis> furry seems to exagerate a ton for effect
[00:20:10] <furrywolf> no, I'm saying it's one of many possible theories. it's not what I'd expect a shorted motor to do, but it's a possible theory.
[00:20:25] <zeeshan> well if a shorted motor can blow something like this
[00:20:30] <zeeshan> this is a dog shit drive to begin with
[00:20:33] <renesis> but youve decided that invalidates like 4 others peoples because you dont like me =)
[00:20:37] <zeeshan> even the cheapest eaton vfd
[00:20:44] <renesis> anyway, this is goofy im out
[00:20:47] <zeeshan> has short detection.
[00:20:52] <furrywolf> as I said, it's not what I'd expect. I'm just listing possible options.
[00:21:11] <renesis> zeeshan: what youre doing isnt considered trivial in an engineering lab
[00:21:13] <zeeshan> renesis: i like u!
[00:21:17] <renesis> this is one of the more difficult issues
[00:21:41] <furrywolf> it could indeed be some stupid power sequencing thing like renesis said. but I'm not going to jump to conclusions like he has.
[00:21:42] <renesis> its hard as fuck to design an smps like that that wont fuckup in some condition
[00:21:58] <renesis> the fact that you say these drives are cheap means they had to design cheap
[00:22:04] <zeeshan> they arent cheap new
[00:22:05] <renesis> which is hard =(
[00:22:07] <zeeshan> theyre like 800 bux
[00:22:08] <zeeshan> to 1000
[00:22:14] <renesis> how did that happen
[00:22:22] <furrywolf> it's a simple buck converter, non-isolated, with control circuitry running off the input voltage. this is far easier to make start up properly than an isolated off-mains supply.
[00:22:24] <renesis> maybe yours were known problems someone was trying to off?
[00:22:26] <renesis> or fake?
[00:22:46] <zeeshan> well they sold me 2 good ones :)
[00:22:56] <renesis> furrywolf: yeah but it still looks hella discrete
[00:22:56] <zeeshan> and ive already power cycled this drive im working on
[00:22:58] <zeeshan> 4 times
[00:23:02] <zeeshan> and it hasn't blown up
[00:23:05] <zeeshan> but i guarantee you
[00:23:07] <zeeshan> i put fucking money on this
[00:23:11] <zeeshan> asap i connect it to my system
[00:23:13] <zeeshan> it'll blow the fuck up
[00:23:19] <bobo_> yes zeeshan would need a scope PLUS bunch of other stuff and bunches of AMC drive's to blast away at in finding the cause
[00:23:20] <zeeshan> ill even make a fucking video of it
[00:23:22] <renesis> anyway i thought you meant the spindle drive the whole time
[00:23:24] <zeeshan> because i know it will happen
[00:23:36] <renesis> bobo_: yeah totally
[00:23:40] <furrywolf> it could be some design stupidity like your Z motor has lower resistance which causes it to trip overcurrent before the supply rail is up to full voltage, or any one of a zillion odd things...
[00:23:57] <renesis> well put an x drive on the z and see if it blows up
[00:23:57] <zeeshan> well im measuring 2 ohms or so
[00:24:01] <zeeshan> at the motor leads for z.
[00:24:04] <renesis> then you know its wiring
[00:24:10] <zeeshan> haha renesis
[00:24:12] <furrywolf> ... spindle drive? no, you bloody fucking knew what it was yesterday.
[00:24:22] <renesis> no i didnt
[00:24:30] <renesis> i was looking at the big drive the whole time =)
[00:24:45] <renesis> cmon you can easily talk shit about me being wrong about that without making baseless assumptions
[00:24:52] <renesis> go for the low hanging fruit
[00:25:02] <bobo_> try power cycling on the 6Ga --220 feed. vers wimpy wall outlet
[00:25:23] <zeeshan> i dont wanna abuse my vfds
[00:25:24] <furrywolf> I'm not making a baseless assumption. I'm making a conclusion that anyone who was paying ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to the discussion would have noticed z drive mentioned at least twenty times.
[00:25:25] <zeeshan> for no reason
[00:25:26] <zeeshan> :)
[00:26:10] <zeeshan> i think im just gonna by pass the contactors.
[00:26:19] <zeeshan> fuck it
[00:26:27] <renesis> furrywolf: i hadnt slept in 40 hours
[00:26:33] <furrywolf> does the motor run smoothly during normal use?
[00:26:36] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[00:26:43] <furrywolf> then it's probably not shorted
[00:27:31] <zeeshan> i need to put a timer in line with my e-stop circuit
[00:27:37] <furrywolf> I do think you need a 'scope if you want to actually diagnose the failure process on the board, if you can't find anything wrong with the external parts.
[00:27:43] <zeeshan> that doesn't let me remove power for 10 min after e-stop
[00:27:55] <zeeshan> furrywolf: to be honest with you
[00:27:56] <furrywolf> then it'll just fry when there's a quick power outage or brownout.
[00:27:58] <zeeshan> all i care about is
[00:28:08] <furrywolf> I also think that the manufacturer should be doing this, not you.
[00:28:09] <zeeshan> not having it blow up again
[00:28:13] <bobo_> also said ? mill was operating ie all 3 axis moving
[00:28:19] <renesis> he didnt give the manufacturer money
[00:28:23] <renesis> they owe him nothing
[00:28:38] <zeeshan> oh trust me, if i get have the manufacturer money
[00:28:39] <furrywolf> renesis: so if you haven't slept in 40 hours and your brain isn't functioning, keep the mouth from functioning too.
[00:28:42] <zeeshan> you'd defintely hear about it :)
[00:28:45] <zeeshan> ROFL furrywolf
[00:28:45] <zeeshan> hahaha
[00:28:55] <zeeshan> i already know renesis's comeback
[00:29:04] <renesis> really?
[00:29:07] <zeeshan> yea
[00:29:10] <zeeshan> you're prolly gonna be like
[00:29:11] <renesis> im still thinking of one throw me a bone
[00:29:23] <zeeshan> "i'm typing"
[00:29:24] <zeeshan> or something
[00:29:31] <zeeshan> :P
[00:29:34] <renesis> naw im dont diff, typing and talking
[00:29:47] <renesis> but is a good idea
[00:30:00] <zeeshan> whats a brown out condition
[00:30:03] <renesis> also its not like it changes a ton of what i said
[00:30:10] <zeeshan> to me it sounds like someone having a bad day on the toilet
[00:30:12] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he thinks cars are semitrucks and relays are contactors... you think he's going to discriminate between communication methods?
[00:30:20] <zeeshan> furrywolf: lol
[00:30:20] <renesis> and its not like my main suspisions are diff
[00:30:22] <zeeshan> hahahahaha
[00:30:26] <zeeshan> TWICE in a row
[00:30:26] <zeeshan> diss.
[00:30:40] <renesis> furry thinks a gate blew, so cut the trace to the gate and ohm and diode test it
[00:30:49] <renesis> if it conducts, shes right, if no, move on
[00:30:53] <furrywolf> brownout is when the line voltage dips abnormally low, usually more than 15% under rating. (95V or so)
[00:31:04] <furrywolf> renesis: no, I was just giving other possibilities.
[00:31:05] <zeeshan> this drive has a rating for 25-125VAC
[00:31:16] <renesis> and no furry
[00:31:16] <zeeshan> infact i connected it to a 60VAC supply
[00:31:22] <renesis> i think cars and trucks are both vehicles
[00:31:24] <zeeshan> to test them out when i got em
[00:31:29] <renesis> and that contactors are a type of relay
[00:31:32] <zeeshan> then moved up to 120vac
[00:31:35] <renesis> again, exgeration for effect
[00:31:37] <zeeshan> cause someone told me to take it easy on the caps.
[00:31:53] <renesis> furrywolf: well im giving ways he can test the possibilities
[00:32:04] <zeeshan> furrywolf: remember this blew up
[00:32:06] <zeeshan> on power up
[00:32:08] <zeeshan> not power down
[00:32:12] <furrywolf> and you are running it off 120v, not 240, right? :)
[00:32:16] <renesis> did you test all of them at 60vac
[00:32:17] <zeeshan> yes 120vac sir
[00:32:21] <zeeshan> yea renesis
[00:32:22] <renesis> or just the ones you blew up
[00:32:26] <zeeshan> i let them charge slowly
[00:32:29] <zeeshan> and then 125vac
[00:32:34] <furrywolf> it could have failed on power down, but didn't have any more power to do anything noticable.
[00:32:41] <renesis> ya
[00:32:42] <zeeshan> furrywolf: good pint
[00:33:15] <zeeshan> well guys
[00:33:18] <zeeshan> im gonna hook this drive up.
[00:33:20] <zeeshan> to Z axis
[00:33:23] <PetefromTn_> well guys looks like Georgenz was able to get his X axis servo powered up and locked down with enable. now to get it tuned and ready to install into the machine for a final tuning.
[00:33:25] <zeeshan> and make a video for you of the explosion
[00:33:47] <renesis> dunno how much thats going to help
[00:33:55] <bobo_> zeeshan wate
[00:33:56] <renesis> itll just prove its prob a wiring issue
[00:33:59] <furrywolf> for example, let's say inductive kickback from some component caused the rail being regulated down with this regulator to go negative, frying the control logic. nothing interesting would happen then, since it's a tiny spike that wouldn't cause visible damage, but the damage is done. then, when you power it up, it explodes.
[00:34:20] <zeeshan> what could externally
[00:34:23] <zeeshan> cause the kickback
[00:34:33] <zeeshan> we already found out the motor coil is ok
[00:34:38] <zeeshan> motor winding
[00:34:40] <renesis> and why wouldnt there be a diode to protect from that somewhwre =(
[00:34:55] <renesis> maybe that guy blew up
[00:34:58] <furrywolf> since your drives are isolated, nothing on the input side should matter.
[00:35:17] <bobo_> first power all the drives from same leg ---eithry L1 or L2
[00:35:47] <furrywolf> troubleshooting issues with smpses or transients really needs a 'scope, if it's not something obvious.
[00:35:50] <bobo_> either L1 or L2
[00:35:51] <zeeshan> bobo_: how about this
[00:35:56] <zeeshan> i plug it in my controller
[00:36:04] <zeeshan> with the control stuff not hooked up
[00:36:07] <zeeshan> nor the motor leads
[00:36:09] <zeeshan> and power cycle it.
[00:36:10] <renesis> zee would prob do more damage with a scope than it would help
[00:36:49] <furrywolf> but, the worst part, is you might need to catch it in the act of failing... which means a big stack of disposable drives.
[00:36:55] <zeeshan> lol
[00:37:03] <zeeshan> the question is
[00:37:13] <zeeshan> do you think its something external?
[00:38:03] <furrywolf> unless your motor or tach is shorted to power, I don't know what it could be.
[00:38:04] <renesis> if you swap a drive over and well know but if it is youll be out another drive
[00:38:10] <bobo_> I am still thinking the AC input could use some impedance at start up
[00:39:01] <zeeshan> like a diode?
[00:39:08] <zeeshan> or you mean literally an inductor
[00:39:10] <furrywolf> is the wiring for the brake completely separate from the wiring to the motor?
[00:39:12] <renesis> no like a resistor and a timed relay
[00:39:17] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[00:39:22] <zeeshan> wait
[00:39:23] <zeeshan> no its not
[00:39:25] <renesis> or an NTC
[00:39:28] <zeeshan> its a 5 pin connector
[00:39:51] <zeeshan> 2 pins are motor winding going to drive
[00:40:04] <zeeshan> 2 pins go to brake relays
[00:40:11] <zeeshan> 1 is earth
[00:40:19] <furrywolf> is the motor single or three phase?
[00:40:23] <zeeshan> single
[00:40:30] <zeeshan> dc brush
[00:40:57] <furrywolf> ... what are your x and y motors?
[00:41:02] <zeeshan> dc brush
[00:41:04] <zeeshan> w/ tacho
[00:41:06] <zeeshan> no brake
[00:41:56] <renesis> so you can swap the drive with same motor, or keep the drive and swap motor, and thatll tell you which side externally, but this is all destructuve testing =(
[00:41:59] <furrywolf> the manual suggests it's meant for driving 3ph ac motors. lol
[00:42:14] <zeeshan> furrywolf: nah
[00:42:16] <zeeshan> its for both
[00:42:27] <zeeshan> theres another pdf
[00:42:38] <bobo_> resistor and timed relay is good
[00:42:56] <renesis> better than an NTC, ya
[00:43:10] <zeeshan> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/time-delay-relay-din-rail-38087-2763437.jpg
[00:43:12] <zeeshan> basically one of those
[00:43:24] <zeeshan> so i put that inseries with my e-stop
[00:43:28] <furrywolf> what's your exact model number?
[00:43:36] <renesis> nice they make a little module
[00:43:36] <zeeshan> be25a20acg-inv
[00:43:56] <zeeshan> "delay time set to 10 days"
[00:44:01] <zeeshan> nothings gonna blow up!
[00:44:01] <zeeshan> :P
[00:44:20] <renesis> zeeshan: in series with your power
[00:44:25] <bobo_> in series with servo drivers AC input
[00:44:28] <renesis> you use the relay to short out a series resistor
[00:44:50] <zeeshan> why cant i delay the e-stop button
[00:44:51] <renesis> so when finished powering up, the resistor is not in circuit
[00:45:09] <zeeshan> iguess cause someone can disconnect
[00:45:50] <renesis> you could use that timed relay to to drive a contactor that shorts out a series power resistor
[00:46:15] <bobo_> E stop olly shuts off AC input
[00:46:18] <furrywolf> do you have an inductance figure for your motors?
[00:46:24] <zeeshan> yes furry
[00:46:44] <renesis> zeeshan: do the drives click during powerup?
[00:46:44] <furrywolf> and it is? :)
[00:46:54] <zeeshan> nah
[00:46:57] <zeeshan> only contactors click
[00:47:00] <zeeshan> clunk more like
[00:47:22] <renesis> then they maybe dont have much or anything for inrush protection
[00:47:26] <renesis> oh haha
[00:47:31] <renesis> ya if they use an NTC
[00:47:46] <renesis> then quick power cycling could defeat functionality
[00:47:58] <renesis> because it doesnt have time to cool to hi z again
[00:49:00] <renesis> i imagine it would have to be a rather large ntc in this application, or one so small that it hardly reduces inrush
[00:49:20] <renesis> large in terms of power, small in terms of cold state resistance
[00:50:14] <renesis> also it may not happen if you were to power cycle without letting the temps saturate inside the vfd case
[00:50:22] <zeeshan> 3.4 mH
[00:50:25] <zeeshan> is the inductance
[00:50:25] <renesis> so a quick test may not do it
[00:50:59] <renesis> zeeshan: how long were they one when you power cycled?
[00:51:00] <furrywolf> ok, that's more than the 250uH minimum for the drive. just checking. :)
[00:51:34] <renesis> and NTC is negative temp coefficient resistor (dunno if you know, sorry for assuming you dont)
[00:51:37] <zeeshan> they were on for like
[00:51:41] <zeeshan> 5 min
[00:51:50] <zeeshan> i dont know that renesis
[00:51:53] <renesis> driven at all?
[00:52:00] <zeeshan> yea i drove em around in that 5 min
[00:52:01] <renesis> or idle
[00:52:07] <zeeshan> they idled for like 2 min
[00:52:10] <zeeshan> drove around for 1 min
[00:52:17] <zeeshan> then waited 1 min or so
[00:52:20] <zeeshan> maybe 2m in
[00:52:22] <zeeshan> and power cyclked
[00:52:33] <renesis> did you ever power cycle them cool
[00:52:40] <renesis> like, just idle, unloaded, without issues?
[00:52:53] <zmfg> have anyone tried installing linuxcnc for hardware control into unbuntu 14.04?
[00:52:53] <zeeshan> the first failure was with no running at all
[00:52:55] <renesis> the way am NTC inrush limiter works is when its cold, its high resistance
[00:52:58] <furrywolf> and you're using only the a and b terminals, with the dip switches set like they instruct?
[00:53:05] <zeeshan> furrywolf: exactly
[00:53:08] <renesis> then when current goes through it warms up and lowers its resistance for normal use
[00:53:19] <renesis> so if it stays warm between power cycling, it wont work
[00:53:39] <renesis> if it doesnt click, it doesnt have relay/resistor inrush limiting, so an NTC is an alternative to that
[00:53:51] <zeeshan> honestly
[00:53:54] <zeeshan> there is no reason during e-stop
[00:54:02] <zeeshan> that i should be cutting power to the mains of the servo drives
[00:54:09] <zeeshan> i think its a shitty way of doing e-stop
[00:54:13] <zeeshan> and i always thought this in the beginning
[00:54:14] <renesis> it doesnt matter you have to make sure it doesnt die in an outage
[00:54:22] <zeeshan> people in here convinced me, that it is the proper way to do it.
[00:54:28] <zeeshan> to me it makes no sense
[00:54:38] <zeeshan> they're NORmally disabled!
[00:54:42] <zeeshan> so the servo's CANT run
[00:54:49] <renesis> as opposed to sending modbus stop?
[00:54:56] <zeeshan> this has nothing to do w/ modbus
[00:54:57] <zeeshan> thats the vfd
[00:55:02] <zeeshan> this is purely the servo drives
[00:55:07] <zeeshan> in an emergency, when you press e-stop
[00:55:11] <zeeshan> you should be sending a drive disable
[00:55:14] <renesis> so you just let them idle?
[00:55:28] <zeeshan> not killing the power to the drive
[00:55:34] <renesis> if the reason you estopped is because one of them is misbehaving, then your estop wouldnt be effective
[00:55:42] <renesis> i think thats where people are coming from
[00:55:51] <zeeshan> well if one of them is misbehaving
[00:55:53] <zeeshan> and you press e-stop
[00:55:58] <zeeshan> it'll force all drives to disable
[00:56:11] <renesis> what if its broken and ignores disable
[00:56:31] <zeeshan> i guess that would suck
[00:56:32] <zeeshan> haha
[00:56:52] <renesis> a lot of safety related design is to deal with shit that almost never ever happens
[00:56:57] <renesis> but would be really bad if it did
[00:57:11] <furrywolf> is the brake part of the motor, or completely separate?
[00:57:12] <zeeshan> i just wanna use my machine :(
[00:57:15] <zeeshan> furrywolf: part of motor
[00:57:26] <furrywolf> and you're positive there's no hidden switch in the motor?
[00:57:38] <zeeshan> what do you mean a hidden switch
[00:57:51] <furrywolf> that disconnects the motor when the brake is on
[00:58:26] <renesis> turn the brake on check resistance
[00:58:27] <zeeshan> that is a good q.
[00:58:36] <zeeshan> renesis: rewrite that please
[00:58:38] <zeeshan> that doesnt make sense haha
[00:59:03] <renesis> turn the brake on and check resistance across the motor coils
[00:59:09] <furrywolf> he's saying to measure the motor coil resistance while turning the brake on and off, and make sure it doesn't go open, short, or do other weird things.
[00:59:10] <renesis> and see if theyre open
[00:59:25] <renesis> haha yeah if it goes short theres your fuckin problem!
[00:59:26] <zeeshan> good idea
[00:59:35] <zeeshan> i got some pics for you guys
[00:59:39] <zeeshan> sorry about the german
[00:59:52] <furrywolf> I've never seen one with such a switch, but I'm trying to think of all the options I can. :P
[01:00:07] <renesis> well its easy to test so not a bad idea to make sure
[01:00:13] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ieOhxuJ.png
[01:00:14] <bobo_> block the tabel
[01:00:20] <zeeshan> right is the brake
[01:00:23] <zeeshan> left is the tachogen.
[01:01:23] <zeeshan> gonna test out the brake theory
[01:01:24] <zeeshan> brb :P
[01:03:20] <bobo_> wish there was a arc suppresor located at brake coil
[01:04:26] <renesis> zee should prob get a handheld scope
[01:05:03] <renesis> hell blow shit up trying to troubleshoot this with a normal scope, kinda hard not to
[01:05:15] <renesis> and i dont think he can afford an isolated diff scope
[01:05:39] <renesis> prob cost as much as the mill, way more for a tektronix one
[01:05:50] <renesis> prob even used =(
[01:05:59] <renesis> those things are so fuckin badass for audio tho
[01:06:07] <furrywolf> as long as you don't connect two probe grounds at once, you're not going to blow anything up.
[01:06:30] <bobo_> scope + big box of scope leads to learn about gnd loops
[01:06:30] <renesis> what do you mean?
[01:06:36] <renesis> if the scope is floated yeah
[01:06:42] <renesis> but were not trying to kill zee
[01:06:42] <furrywolf> yes
[01:06:51] <renesis> i fuck with him because i want him to become less of an ass
[01:06:58] <furrywolf> I have a 10A isolation transformer for when I need to do things like that. :P
[01:07:01] <renesis> not because i want him to die
[01:07:09] <toastydeath> zzzzap
[01:07:18] <renesis> yeah i dont think he has one of those
[01:08:06] <furrywolf> I often float my 'scopes...
[01:08:15] <toastydeath> whaaaat
[01:08:18] <toastydeath> why on earth
[01:08:31] <renesis> haha i once kill a $2500 active speaker amp because i rung out an amp output for ground and connected scope
[01:08:35] <renesis> and it blew up
[01:08:50] <bobo_> isolation Xfmr are great only if you pay close attention
[01:08:51] <renesis> and i checked again and the dmm beeped because the speaker was 8 ohm and it beeped under 10
[01:08:54] <renesis> =(
[01:09:09] <furrywolf> I blew a nice fisher hifi amp that way once... don't remember the exact circumstances, but I thought it was floating, when it wasn't.
[01:09:13] <renesis> toastydeath: its actually very common in audio
[01:09:17] <renesis> ive done it
[01:09:37] <renesis> but its dangerous as fuck to use cheater plugs, kill the next person to use the gear
[01:09:48] <toastydeath> except every scope mfg warns people not to do that
[01:10:06] <renesis> right because it can kill mfkrs
[01:10:27] <renesis> but some of the best techs (like, CTO genius types) will have a floated scope at the bench all the time
[01:10:36] <renesis> scary shit
[01:11:04] <toastydeath> i'm not saying there's never a reason to do it, but i'd not want to make a habit of it under anything but extraordinary circumstances
[01:11:12] <renesis> like, you shouldnt handle live smps because the rectified mains can kill you
[01:11:25] <renesis> but ive shorted out 360V charged caps across my hand prob a dozen time
[01:11:35] <renesis> only dropped the psu a couple of those times!
[01:11:54] <toastydeath> hahaha
[01:11:55] <renesis> toastydeath: sadly safety often gets trashed when schedules are involved, shrug
[01:12:11] <renesis> not like im proud of it but gotta get shit done with what you got
[01:12:35] <renesis> when you have money you just buy a battery powered diff scope with isolated channels
[01:12:56] * furrywolf doesn't have money
[01:13:05] <renesis> i dont but some of the places i worked for did
[01:13:18] <furrywolf> I'm going to be seriously screwed next month... losing a $2500/yr contract, and I do not have $2500/yr spare.
[01:13:19] <renesis> the places that do overnight shipping every time will buy you a floated diff scope
[01:13:26] <renesis> the places that think twice about 2nd day air wont
[01:13:40] <toastydeath> tru
[01:13:50] <toastydeath> although i've seen isolation amps on ebay for not a ton of dollars
[01:13:56] <renesis> shipping method seems to be a really good gauge of company finances, heh
[01:14:10] <renesis> yeah but theyre a bitch to move around
[01:14:18] <renesis> which is a dumb excuse but the truth
[01:14:36] <toastydeath> ..?
[01:14:45] <toastydeath> isolation amps are hard to move?
[01:14:53] <toastydeath> the ones I've seen are like, half the size of a scope or less
[01:15:08] <renesis> i dunno we always had big high current ones around
[01:15:28] <renesis> would be almost the size of a regulated mains ac power supply
[01:15:40] <toastydeath> we may be talking about different things, i'm talking about a scope probe amplifier
[01:15:49] <renesis> and you can get cheater plugs at a hardware store in 15 minutes for $2
[01:15:50] * furrywolf wonders if zee managed to electrocute himself, since this should have been a 30-second test.
[01:16:00] <renesis> ooooh
[01:16:25] <toastydeath> optoisolation amp/whatever you want to call it
[01:16:32] <renesis> yeah sorry i read over the 'amp' part, and yeah that shit always breaks
[01:16:36] <renesis> like current probes
[01:16:59] <renesis> most of the ones ive seen in labs were old, broken, or just laughably off in measurements
[01:17:20] <furrywolf> isolation often leads to being laughably off. isolation is hard.
[01:18:34] <renesis> like, they were using a current probe for measurements for psu spec at one job for years
[01:18:37] * furrywolf pokes zee with an insulated stick
[01:18:42] <renesis> and it didnt match up with my sense resistor reading
[01:19:12] <renesis> and i checked the rating of the probe, and they had been using it at constant duty for a current level it was rated at ms for
[01:19:32] <renesis> theyre like BUT IT SAYS THIS MANY CURRENTS and i am like YA BUT THERES A CURVE!
[01:19:36] <furrywolf> so, theories? did he find the problem? did he electrocute himself? did he get distracted watching cat videos on youtube?
[01:19:59] <renesis> maybe went to sleep
[01:20:07] <renesis> maybe tried swapping vfd or motors
[01:20:09] <renesis> shrug
[01:20:19] <renesis> my friend died i dont want to do homework
[01:20:20] <renesis> =(
[01:20:24] <furrywolf> which I should have done two hours ago, but was trying to help him...
[01:20:38] <bobo_> cat videos
[01:20:39] <renesis> its a fun prob to troubleshoot
[01:25:10] <zeeshan> nothin
[01:25:14] <zeeshan> out of the ordinary
[01:25:21] <zeeshan> sorry i was playing around with the x and y
[01:25:27] <zeeshan> and killing power on them rapidly
[01:25:30] <zeeshan> they didnt blow up
[01:25:38] <zeeshan> and the other drive thats my last spare drive
[01:25:46] <zeeshan> i power cycled that like a mad man using a wall outlet
[01:25:53] <zeeshan> i pulled the plug, 2 sec later plugged it in
[01:25:57] <zeeshan> 5 sec pulled it out
[01:25:59] <furrywolf> so motor readings did nothing odd when switching the brake on and off?
[01:26:01] <zeeshan> then 20 sec plugged it in
[01:26:03] <zeeshan> it doesnt blow up
[01:26:05] <zeeshan> i did this like 8 times
[01:26:21] <zeeshan> well when the brake is disabled
[01:26:26] <zeeshan> the z axis is going to move a little
[01:26:34] <zeeshan> so it tries to go to 0 ohms
[01:26:48] <zeeshan> but when i keep the axis stationary
[01:26:56] <furrywolf> does it stabalize at normal once it's sitting on your block?
[01:26:58] <zeeshan> it stays at the 1-2 ohm reading im geting.
[01:27:13] <zeeshan> ofcourse the motor will generate voltage
[01:27:14] <zeeshan> when its moving
[01:27:19] <furrywolf> and it stays the same putting the brake on, right?
[01:27:24] <zeeshan> which was inthe realm of .8-2volts max
[01:27:30] <zeeshan> yes
[01:27:57] <furrywolf> ok, now you know another problem it's not. :)
[01:27:59] <furrywolf> bbl, sleep.
[01:28:02] <zeeshan> gnite!
[01:28:07] <bobo_> AC source impedance
[01:28:14] <zeeshan> bobo_: it didnt blow up!! :P
[01:28:39] <anarchos2> anyone want to buy some stepper motor covers? i bought the wrong ones :(
[01:28:56] <zeeshan> anarchos2: we dont buy in here
[01:29:01] <zeeshan> we get donations :-)
[01:29:11] <renesis> 11:12:27 < bobo_> AC source impedance
[01:29:14] <renesis> ^
[01:29:17] <bobo_> wall outlet vers at mill
[01:33:15] <zeeshan> Do not reverse the power supply leads! Severe damage will result! • If using relays or othe r means to disconnect th e motor leads, be sure the drive is disabled before reconnecting the motor leads to the drive. Connecting the motor leads to the drive while it is enabled can generate extremely high voltage spikes which will damage the drive.
[01:33:29] <zeeshan> hm
[01:33:38] <zeeshan> nm thats about output side
[01:34:10] <renesis> so bad connection could blow it
[01:34:36] <bobo_> same stuff for a VFD
[01:34:51] <zeeshan> yea but at least in the vfd case
[01:34:52] <zeeshan> it has protection
[01:35:01] <zeeshan> if it detects a motor disconnection
[01:35:05] <zeeshan> it'll go in limp mode automatically
[01:35:09] <zeeshan> ive tested this before
[01:35:23] <renesis> i wonder if thats actually furrys name
[01:35:23] <zeeshan> and if you try to short the phases
[01:35:31] <zeeshan> it'll detect a phase fault
[01:35:37] <zeeshan> randy g?
[01:35:37] <zeeshan> :P
[01:35:46] <renesis> thats my name
[01:35:51] <zeeshan> seriously?
[01:35:52] <zeeshan> lol
[01:35:56] <renesis> not the g part
[01:35:59] <zeeshan> haha
[01:36:21] <zeeshan> protection mechanisms:
[01:36:50] <zeeshan> over-voltage, under voltage, over-current, overheating, and short circuits across motors, ground and power leads
[01:36:53] <zeeshan> SO ITS NONE of those.
[01:37:05] <renesis> naw thats not true
[01:37:17] <renesis> that just means in test conditions in a lab they got a few of them to pass
[01:37:29] <renesis> dont assume protection will always work
[01:37:41] <zeeshan> well w/ industrial stuff you usally can
[01:37:46] <zeeshan> they're vigorously tested
[01:37:53] <renesis> also note it doesnt say inrush protection
[01:37:54] <zeeshan> i just really think this drive is shit.
[01:38:05] <renesis> dude its got wiped chips
[01:38:22] <zeeshan> theyre so fucking dumb
[01:38:24] <zeeshan> if someone wants to copy it
[01:38:29] <zeeshan> they really will copy it by reverse engineering it
[01:38:32] <zeeshan> yea it makes it harder
[01:38:33] <renesis> like, if your kevtris that makes sense
[01:38:35] <zeeshan> but if you're real;ly determined
[01:38:42] <renesis> if youre rolling standard circuits, its just weird
[01:38:55] <renesis> its a china thing, its how they hide sketchy sourcing
[01:39:06] <zeeshan> well you saw a couple of the chips
[01:39:09] <zeeshan> they said ST
[01:39:09] <zeeshan> on em
[01:39:16] <renesis> and typically you dont look to deep into the contract manufacturers sourcing
[01:39:18] <zeeshan> maybe theyre fucking knockoff chips
[01:39:28] <renesis> because youll find endless problems and never ever ship
[01:39:39] <renesis> are these made in asia?
[01:39:52] <zeeshan> nah
[01:39:57] <zeeshan> "proudly made in usa"
[01:40:02] <zeeshan> infact they made a comment about why they hide their chips
[01:40:06] <zeeshan> they dont want others to copy.
[01:40:08] <zeeshan> sounds like a whole lot of dog shit
[01:40:33] <zeeshan> what is a "shunt resistor"
[01:40:42] <renesis> parallel resistor
[01:40:46] <Jymmm> big ass resistor
[01:40:50] <renesis> its a very generic term
[01:41:02] <renesis> usually it would be big, yeah
[01:41:02] <zeeshan> it says
[01:41:05] <bobo_> My harley is made in USA
[01:41:06] <zeeshan> "internal shunt regulator"
[01:41:12] <zeeshan> and "internal shunt resistor"
[01:41:15] <toastydeath> a shunt is used as a current measurement point
[01:41:17] <zeeshan> is that some protection shit?
[01:41:20] <renesis> ?
[01:41:33] <toastydeath> it's a very low resistance and very high current
[01:41:38] <Jymmm> a current shunt or a shunt resistor?
[01:41:40] <renesis> shunt regulator just sounds like crazy cheap regulator
[01:41:40] <toastydeath> low, but known fairly accurately
[01:41:44] <toastydeath> *known
[01:41:50] <Jymmm> echnically the same thing, but used differently
[01:41:52] <toastydeath> so you measure the voltage drop across the shunt and you can tell the current
[01:42:06] <toastydeath> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_%28electrical%29
[01:42:16] <Jymmm> Very low resistance high wattage = current shynt resistor
[01:42:39] <Jymmm> Like .1 or .01 or .05 ohms
[01:42:42] <zeeshan> okay so it just means you can measure current
[01:42:44] <zeeshan> on the drive
[01:42:51] <zeeshan> through some accessory pin
[01:43:33] <renesis> yeah so in this case its a shunt in parallel with current measurement circuits
[01:43:39] <zeeshan> i dont see any ratings
[01:43:41] <zeeshan> about "in rush current"
[01:43:56] <renesis> its not something you typically advertise
[01:43:58] <toastydeath> it's probably "a fuckin' lot"
[01:45:38] <renesis> like, ive seen straight parallel zener regulators called shunt regulators
[01:45:52] <toastydeath> for surge?
[01:46:05] <renesis> the zener 'shunts' extra current away from the load
[01:46:05] <toastydeath> cuz they'll break down and let shit through
[01:46:16] <renesis> no for normal regulation
[01:46:19] <toastydeath> oh
[01:46:32] <renesis> but i think they prob mean current regulation based on feedback from a shunt resistor
[01:47:23] <renesis> shunt just means parallel resistor, like 'put a shunt resistor' is often used to say load down a power supply or amp circuit
[01:48:46] <zeeshan> so its definitely not my wiring
[01:48:51] <zeeshan> it would have a short circuit fault too
[01:49:05] <zeeshan> maybe it was just 2 bad drives :(
[01:49:17] <zeeshan> w/ bad caps
[01:49:22] <bobo_> your wiring is TOO good
[01:49:32] <renesis> yeah that might be the case
[01:49:41] <zeeshan> so when caps blow
[01:49:45] <zeeshan> trhey can take out other shit with them?
[01:49:48] <renesis> low z, you turn it on at the peak of the mains voltage wave
[01:49:48] <zeeshan> wouldnt they act like a fuse
[01:49:51] <renesis> and boom
[01:51:08] <renesis> ask the manufacturer about inrush limiting if theyre talking
[01:51:51] <bobo_> you went to some effort to get large wre size for drives AC input plugs
[01:52:11] <zeeshan> haha you remember that?
[01:52:17] <renesis> they might have always tested with cheap 16awg IEC cables
[01:52:18] <zeeshan> these guys were using the stupid connector
[01:52:33] <zeeshan> im using 14 awg
[01:53:04] <renesis> man i cant think i dont know if im going to be able to do homework
[01:53:11] <zeeshan> go to sleep man
[01:53:12] <renesis> this has actually been a good distraction
[01:53:16] <zeeshan> dont stay up
[01:53:18] <renesis> i dont think ill be able to
[01:53:23] <zeeshan> what hw do you have
[01:53:31] <renesis> i dont know if i said i just found out a mentor type person died
[01:53:41] <renesis> chem stuff not a big deal
[01:53:43] <zeeshan> :\
[01:53:45] <zeeshan> old?
[01:53:52] <renesis> due tomorrow night i think
[01:54:04] <renesis> yeah but not super old, maybe 50s
[01:54:10] <zeeshan> damn
[01:54:36] <renesis> 60 max, hes had heart issues as long as ive known him, like 7 years ago we met
[01:54:53] <zeeshan> heart attacks?
[01:55:01] <renesis> acoustic engineer for loudspeakers, they tend to live fast
[01:55:07] <renesis> yeah had a pacemaker
[01:55:26] <zeeshan> 60 is still too young to die in this day and age
[01:55:34] <renesis> he got laid off from a place i did later, and he went on surfing vacations
[01:55:36] <zeeshan> people live to like 70s-80s
[01:56:13] <renesis> big into dirtbiking, did track days with a vette, lots of semi auto rifles, did competitive pistol shooting
[01:56:35] <renesis> he was a big guy and didnt want to deal with that
[01:56:47] <renesis> which is something i need to watch out for
[01:56:59] <zeeshan> work out
[01:57:02] <zeeshan> school makes you fat!
[01:57:06] <renesis> yeah i should
[01:57:09] <renesis> school gym is nice
[01:57:14] <zeeshan> dude my buddy
[01:57:16] <zeeshan> that ive known forever
[01:57:23] <zeeshan> he was a mechanic and started doing engineering at 28
[01:57:30] <zeeshan> he gained over 80 lb
[01:57:33] <zeeshan> in first 2 years of eng
[01:57:34] <zeeshan> lol
[01:57:48] <zeeshan> for me , i stayed the same weight
[01:57:51] <zeeshan> but lost hair!
[01:58:00] <renesis> yeah im a pc potatoe already so i dont think its an issue
[01:58:02] <zeeshan> luckily its just thin now :p
[01:58:24] <renesis> like, 10 hour PCB editor sessions was pretty standard for me even 8 years ago
[01:58:47] <zeeshan> i kinda wish i had more idea about electronics after this stuff :P
[01:58:53] <renesis> my hairlines is maybe 1/4" back from where it was 5 years ago
[01:59:05] <renesis> it takes like 3 or 4 years
[01:59:16] <renesis> because you can kind of see electronics in an intuitive way
[01:59:24] <renesis> thats pretty consistent for the people in #electronics
[01:59:40] <renesis> a lot of those guys started as kids
[01:59:45] <zeeshan> we just did basic r-c-l circuits
[01:59:50] <zeeshan> and some 3 phase
[01:59:53] <zeeshan> but im mech eng
[01:59:57] <zeeshan> so we never did stuff like op amps
[02:00:02] <renesis> the basics are everything
[02:00:13] <zeeshan> or digital circuits or transistors
[02:00:23] <zeeshan> never even came close to power supplies either
[02:00:28] <renesis> like, you can opamp without understanding basics, but you wont be able to troubleshoot it if shit goes wrong
[02:00:47] <renesis> power electronics are a beast
[02:00:55] <zeeshan> i have this radio shack book
[02:00:58] <zeeshan> "how to build a power supply"
[02:01:03] <zeeshan> its really not too noob friendly
[02:01:08] <renesis> but its easy to grasp, RF is as crazy but very abstract
[02:01:11] <zeeshan> i follow the part about a linear supply w/ a basic transformer
[02:01:17] <zeeshan> cap and i believe a resistor
[02:01:21] <zeeshan> and bridge recitifer
[02:01:26] <zeeshan> asap they get into smps
[02:01:27] <zeeshan> i get lost
[02:01:29] <renesis> diode bridge, caps, done
[02:01:45] <renesis> you need to understand linear voltage regulators first
[02:01:57] <toastydeath> Art of Electonics
[02:02:00] <toastydeath> go big or go homeeeee
[02:02:01] <CaptHindsight> a rectified oscillator
[02:02:05] <renesis> and have intuitive understanding of how caps and inductors work
[02:02:10] <renesis> but for an ME thats easy
[02:02:17] <renesis> inductor is a turbine
[02:02:17] <zeeshan> i get caps and inductors
[02:02:23] <renesis> its inductance value is the turbines mass
[02:02:24] <Jymmm> I gotta say, I'm impressed with the sheer light output of this 20W LED module
[02:02:32] <renesis> caps are membranes or pistons
[02:02:52] <renesis> their capacitance is how much the can stretch or how far the piston can move
[02:03:05] <CaptHindsight> the swicthmode supplies just rectify modulation
[02:03:17] <renesis> well, their voltage really, the rigidity of the membrane or mass of the piston is related to capacitance
[02:03:26] <zeeshan> i think what confuses me is when you look at say a meanwell 24vdc supply
[02:03:29] <zeeshan> its got so much shit in it
[02:03:34] <zeeshan> on paper it looks simple
[02:03:36] <renesis> jymmm: yeah above like 3W theyre pretty nuts
[02:03:37] <zeeshan> but in practical psu
[02:03:39] <zeeshan> its crazy
[02:03:48] <renesis> 20W has got to be insane
[02:03:51] <toastydeath> better to look at the block diagram
[02:04:05] <toastydeath> because a lot of that shit is additional filtering/regulation and safety
[02:04:10] <renesis> see to me a mean well supply is stripped out
[02:04:18] <renesis> they take exactly what they need
[02:04:32] <renesis> and theres a lot of unpopulated parts\
[02:04:38] <renesis> theyre very good supplies
[02:04:43] <Jymmm> renesis: It is, but not in the way you think it would be. It "floods" so well it's impressive how much is actualy lit up
[02:05:11] <zeeshan> http://www.synchronics.co.in/Media/Images/2697.jpg
[02:05:12] <zeeshan> like that
[02:05:17] <zeeshan> so much stuff in it
[02:05:25] <renesis> yeah i had an array of maybe 10 5W LEDs on an aluminum U channel
[02:05:25] <toastydeath> that's not a ton of stuff?
[02:05:29] <Jymmm> renesis: This 1/2 by 7" long module lit up a solid dark patio that's 12 x 24 ft
[02:05:32] <zeeshan> its a ton of stuff to me!
[02:05:33] <renesis> no lenses, shit lit up the entire fuckin room
[02:05:40] <renesis> like bounced off the cieling and lit behind it
[02:05:48] <Jymmm> no roof
[02:05:58] <renesis> ha cool
[02:06:04] <Jymmm> no bouncing off walls
[02:06:08] <Jymmm> no lenses
[02:06:09] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: yeah it's too late for you buddy, you missed all the secret handshakes
[02:06:16] <zeeshan> lol
[02:06:16] <renesis> zeeshan: yeah at first, but when you start seeing subcircuits as units, things get much simpler
[02:06:25] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you need to figure out what the block structure is
[02:06:33] <renesis> yup
[02:06:33] <zeeshan> the only thing i can recognize
[02:06:36] <zeeshan> is the capacitor bank
[02:06:36] <toastydeath> start at the inputs and outputs
[02:06:39] <zeeshan> and bridge recitifer
[02:06:41] <renesis> thats what learning to see electronics is about
[02:06:41] <zeeshan> thats IT!
[02:06:46] <Jymmm> renesis: no mounting holes either =) http://www.dxsoul.com/product/diy-20w-6500k-2100lm-white-light-cob-led-module-12-14v-170-x-15mm-901199875
[02:06:48] <renesis> reducing schematics to functional blocks
[02:06:53] <zeeshan> i dont know wh tehre are 4 inductors inthere
[02:06:59] <CaptHindsight> IT is pretty much magic after that
[02:06:59] <zeeshan> and why one is a fancy toriod
[02:06:59] <renesis> wow cheap
[02:07:08] <toastydeath> zeeshan, possibly switchmode power supply
[02:07:10] <Jymmm> renesis: and not very hot either
[02:07:17] <renesis> jymmm: how you mounting?
[02:07:23] <Jymmm> renesis: SUPER thin, less than 1/8"
[02:07:25] <renesis> this was the thermal adhesive application?
[02:07:27] <zeeshan> at the very right i see a voltage regulaktor
[02:07:36] <Jymmm> renesis: silicone to aluminim plate
[02:07:42] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you're looking at it at the wrong level
[02:07:48] <renesis> hardcore
[02:08:19] <toastydeath> look for things like continuity, to figure out what's a cap and what isn't, and start to draw a schematic
[02:08:42] <renesis> zeeshan: im getting errors on the link you posted
[02:08:55] <toastydeath> almost all the caps are probably filtering various things
[02:09:03] <Jymmm> renesis: If you get two of these 10W, then you can have a LOW/HI, front/back setup http://www.dxsoul.com/product/diy-10w-6000k-1050lm-white-light-cob-led-module-12-14v-901199871
[02:09:12] <zeeshan> emi filter -> active inrush current limiting -> auto switch || rectifier & filter -> power switch -> OLP , PWM control
[02:09:13] <zeeshan> interesting
[02:09:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: the curly thing that looks like a spring is probably an inductor
[02:09:16] <zeeshan> all that stuff is on the AC side.
[02:10:12] <toastydeath> what do you mean by "the ac side"
[02:10:24] <zeeshan> the hv side
[02:10:28] <zeeshan> before step down transformer
[02:10:30] <Jymmm> renesis: Or even space them out to cover a longer area.
[02:10:52] <bobo_> active inrush current limiting -------do it !
[02:11:20] <toastydeath> NO!
[02:11:38] <renesis> zeeshan: it has pwm on the ac side before a transformer?
[02:11:38] <toastydeath> zeeshan, is it really a stepdown transformer or is it the filter for the pwm
[02:11:46] <Deejay> moin
[02:11:51] <renesis> yeah how many pins
[02:12:26] <renesis> thats not what blew up, but its maybe what caused the voltage regulator on the secondary side to blow up
[02:12:27] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: the --| |-- is most likely a condenser (or capacitor if you're not an auto mechanic)
[02:12:29] <zeeshan> that i dont know lol
[02:12:43] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: || OR!
[02:12:47] <toastydeath> look on the underside of the pcb and try to figure out how many points it connects to on the board
[02:13:10] <zeeshan> f electronics
[02:13:14] * zeeshan runs away
[02:13:20] <renesis> <3 electronics
[02:13:26] <CaptHindsight> WWWWWW is a resistor
[02:13:26] <toastydeath> i really like electronics repair so far, but I need to get some more equipment
[02:13:35] <zeeshan> toastydeath: fix these drives
[02:13:37] <zeeshan> :-)
[02:13:39] <renesis> i hate zag resistor symbols
[02:13:40] <toastydeath> I'd try
[02:13:44] <renesis> all about boxes
[02:13:53] <toastydeath> I'm decent so far but i haven't tried anything crazy difficult
[02:13:55] <toastydeath> i also don't have a scope
[02:14:00] <toastydeath> which is somewhat limiting
[02:14:03] <zeeshan> im gonna replace the caps
[02:14:04] <zeeshan> and power it
[02:14:07] <toastydeath> wat
[02:14:09] <zeeshan> likely blow it up even more
[02:14:14] <zeeshan> then send it to you
[02:14:16] <renesis> the pass transistor is blown
[02:14:23] <renesis> you need to replace it
[02:14:34] <toastydeath> i don't have any of the shit to diagnose a power supply efficiently
[02:14:38] <CaptHindsight> XXXX is a quad flux gate
[02:14:40] <zeeshan> renesis: im referring to second failure
[02:14:48] <zeeshan> are you too?
[02:14:52] <renesis> yeah thats what looked blown
[02:14:53] <toastydeath> so a transistor blew, what's upstream of it
[02:15:04] <toastydeath> is there a voltage regulator?
[02:15:08] <renesis> http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png
[02:15:18] <renesis> the transistor is burnt
[02:15:22] <toastydeath> figure out the continuity around the transistor
[02:15:26] <toastydeath> and see what's connected to it
[02:15:32] <renesis> pcb is toasty, solder reflowed quickly
[02:15:32] <toastydeath> look for something that's gone retarded
[02:15:57] <CaptHindsight> so Mexico is not the problem?
[02:16:24] <renesis> oh shit
[02:16:24] <zeeshan> no ideal
[02:16:26] <toastydeath> i'd fucking love an in-circuit lcr meter
[02:16:32] <zeeshan> how i'll figure out what chip that is
[02:16:32] <zeeshan> :P
[02:16:38] <renesis> theres like, a trace thats gone?
[02:16:47] <zeeshan> where?
[02:17:36] <CaptHindsight> why are all the part numbers missing from the tops of the packages?
[02:17:43] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: ask amc
[02:17:59] <zeeshan> ask them why that didnt stop the chinese from copying their design
[02:18:02] <CaptHindsight> talk about anal
[02:18:49] <CaptHindsight> and thats why I wouldn't worry about China
[02:18:56] <toastydeath> cuz the chinese have electron microscopes and ovens to bake the thing open
[02:19:13] <CaptHindsight> JFC, just make your own design
[02:19:14] <toastydeath> and they know what most devices look like on silicon
[02:20:39] <renesis> http://imgur.com/MKulEdF
[02:20:59] <renesis> zeeshan: boxed stuff that shows burnt transistor and overheating
[02:21:05] <renesis> but the really, really weird thing
[02:21:09] <renesis> bottom right box
[02:21:13] <renesis> that trace goes nowhere
[02:21:22] <zeeshan> lol
[02:21:39] <toastydeath> how many layers is the board?
[02:21:46] <zeeshan> looks like front and back side
[02:21:46] <renesis> theres no via!
[02:21:56] <renesis> and it looks like it got hot
[02:21:57] <toastydeath> weird!
[02:22:01] <CaptHindsight> buried or blind vias?
[02:22:10] <renesis> zeeshan: take closer pic?
[02:22:21] <zeeshan> no
[02:22:22] <zeeshan> i am tired now
[02:22:25] <zeeshan> f electronics
[02:22:29] <renesis> it doesnt look sike solder mask was lifted
[02:22:32] <zeeshan> gonna chuck this drive at students tommo
[02:22:53] <CaptHindsight> don't make me drive to tronto
[02:23:06] <bobo_> bus
[02:23:31] <renesis> that trace is weird
[02:23:48] <renesis> its the same on the other board
[02:23:55] <renesis> maybe its a tiny via
[02:24:10] <renesis> it doesnt look like it
[02:24:12] <renesis> wtf is that
[02:24:21] <CaptHindsight> http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png this pic?
[02:24:24] <renesis> oh
[02:24:26] <renesis> its a shield
[02:24:42] <renesis> no the other blown drive
[02:24:44] <toastydeath> oh, the trace in the middle of the thing?
[02:24:54] <renesis> http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[02:24:56] <toastydeath> like vertically centered?
[02:25:07] <renesis> yeah its just a shield its connected to the ground plane
[02:25:27] <zeeshan> shield?
[02:25:36] <toastydeath> Shields and guards!
[02:25:46] <zeeshan> so voltage cant jump over?
[02:25:56] <CaptHindsight> the smoke was released
[02:26:00] <renesis> no for RF
[02:26:00] <toastydeath> a shield is a wire connected to the ground plane to reduce capacative coupling
[02:26:06] <zeeshan> ah
[02:26:21] <toastydeath> instead of coupling to the other signal, most of it dumps to ground and goes nowhere
[02:26:23] <renesis> it basically capacitively couples to ground instead
[02:26:36] <zeeshan> just to fucking piss off amc
[02:26:43] <toastydeath> a guard is the opposite, it's sitting at the high voltage.
[02:26:44] <zeeshan> i wanna spend 6 months reverse engineering this
[02:26:44] <renesis> it can also move interference to random parts of the board if its not adequate
[02:26:49] <zeeshan> and releasing the entire schematic online
[02:26:51] <zeeshan> and emailing it to them too
[02:26:55] <zeeshan> bastards
[02:27:32] <renesis> on the other board it looks like it got hot at the end but its unrelated
[02:28:03] <zeeshan> if i just replace that one cap
[02:28:06] <zeeshan> it'll just blow up again?
[02:28:17] <Jymmm> renesis: http://www.dxsoul.com/product/jrled-3w-300lm-6500k-21-cob-led-white-light-modules-white-beige-5-pcs-dc-10-11v-901357211
[02:28:21] <zeeshan> if i dont replace that black transistor / voltage regulator thing
[02:28:44] <toastydeath> how are we supposed to know, it's likely gonna blow again but who knows
[02:28:53] <toastydeath> until you find out more, there's no way to know
[02:28:57] <renesis> jymmm: wow neat
[02:29:02] <zeeshan> worth a shot then
[02:29:02] <zeeshan> :)
[02:29:04] <zeeshan> nothing to lose
[02:29:05] <renesis> i like the package on those
[02:29:19] <toastydeath> zeeshan, except you could damage more shit
[02:29:19] <Jymmm> renesis: undercabinet or even tool light or workbench
[02:29:26] <zeeshan> toastydeath: yea its scrap to me anyway
[02:29:30] <renesis> zeeshan: it might not doing anything different whan when you plug it in now
[02:29:41] <zeeshan> when i plug it in right now
[02:29:43] <zeeshan> it blows a fuse
[02:29:48] <zeeshan> well actually
[02:29:50] <zeeshan> i dont know that
[02:30:16] <renesis> fixing cap might fix that for a half second until the cap blows again
[02:30:57] <toastydeath> what does it do when you have power on it
[02:31:02] <toastydeath> what's the no load draw
[02:31:11] <toastydeath> do you have a variac with a current meter
[02:31:21] <zeeshan> no
[02:31:38] <zeeshan> <- not electronics savvy
[02:31:39] <zeeshan> :)
[02:32:41] <toastydeath> is the fuse actually blown?
[02:32:47] <zeeshan> not the internal one
[02:32:53] <zeeshan> just my upstream fuse
[02:32:58] <toastydeath> ...what upstream fuse?
[02:33:18] <zeeshan> -> l2 -> 15A cc fuse -> drive [internal 16A fuse]
[02:34:09] <toastydeath> l2?
[02:34:19] <zeeshan> leg 2
[02:34:22] <zeeshan> of split phase
[02:34:22] <toastydeath> o
[02:34:28] <toastydeath> why is that fuse there
[02:34:43] <toastydeath> is the internal fuse slow blow?
[02:34:47] <zeeshan> yes
[02:34:53] <toastydeath> is your external fuse slow blow?
[02:34:56] <zeeshan> no
[02:35:07] <toastydeath> ...
[02:35:09] <zeeshan> thats why it prolly protected stuff from more damage
[02:35:21] <toastydeath> so you need to get that shizz on a variac and turn it up slow
[02:35:30] <toastydeath> and see what the running condition is
[02:39:01] <bobo_> he wants to power cycle the AC input
[02:39:21] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/TCJY336M025R0070/478-9507-1-ND/5001719
[02:39:22] <zeeshan> 2 bucks!
[02:39:41] <zeeshan> theyre only rated for 2000 hrs
[02:39:47] <zeeshan> oh at 85c.
[02:54:25] <RyanS> does a boring head spec of 50mm mean the max. radius, or diameter of hole?
[02:55:29] <archivist> neither it depends on how you fit the tools
[02:57:20] <RyanS> erm, or i see thats simply diameter of the head
[03:16:56] <anarchos2> does anyone here sync their tool table with their CAD/CAM table some how?
[03:22:00] <Tom_itx> anarchos2, i somewhat do that manually
[03:56:55] <anarchos2> Tom_itx, i might try to whip up a script to do it automagically from solidworks
[03:57:07] <anarchos2> i'd have to see what kind of output SW would give me, though.
[07:16:59] <_methods> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v518/n7537/full/nature14144.html
[07:24:54] <unfy> and i've broken two cheap p.o.s. chinese clamps tonight :D
[07:25:17] <unfy> at different times, without putting alot of force on them, while actually tightening them down heh
[07:53:24] <_methods> chinese clamps?
[07:53:30] <_methods> harbor freight clamps hehe
[08:08:13] <XXCoder> interesting guy just left
[08:09:01] <XXCoder> _methods: interesting article
[08:15:18] <_methods> yeah i wonder how easy it isto mass produce
[08:15:28] <_methods> the excerpt said in cold rolled sheet
[08:15:53] <_methods> so i'm assuming that they will be able to integrate it into existing processes
[08:16:41] <_methods> titanium strength sheet metal that is ductile and 1/10 the price of titanium
[08:16:46] <_methods> sign me up
[08:28:59] <archivist> _methods, just the sort of structure to later suffer from stress corrosion cracking
[08:48:02] <_methods> well it looks like it has high ductility
[08:48:09] <_methods> but i'm not paying for the pdf lol
[08:48:21] <_methods> so i don't know for sure what it's material characteristics are
[08:50:03] <archivist> if the price was right everyone would be happy to buy
[09:00:15] <_methods> well its supposedly 1/10 the price of titanium sheet
[09:00:35] <_methods> so i would imagine it has quite a lot of aeronautical types quite interested
[09:01:20] <archivist> I doubt the rust will interest them
[09:12:22] <ssi> morn
[09:15:03] <PetefromTn_> http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/morn/calltoarms_826.jpg
[09:16:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038%2Fnature14144 lower cost version of the pdf
[09:52:54] <_methods> CaptHindsight: thx
[09:53:33] <_methods> archivist: i don't know with the nickel and everything else in there
[09:57:00] <furrywolf> how do you get a pdf from that url? all I have is a box saying to install flash player. flash isn't pdf. heh.
[09:58:10] <PetefromTn_> works fine here
[09:58:45] <furrywolf> you get a pdf file?
[09:59:47] <PetefromTn_> no actually it opens some kinda read cube page but there is a download link for the .pdf
[10:00:13] <furrywolf> without flash, the page seems to do nothing.
[10:00:49] <PetefromTn_> I am using Chrome dunno what to tell ya..
[10:01:14] <furrywolf> it tells me you have flash installed, since you're getting a page, not a message telling you to install flash. :P
[10:05:27] <furrywolf> as far as I can tell, readcube is another scam trying to get money from you.
[10:06:50] <furrywolf> well, if you can save a pdf, want to send me a copy? ;P
[10:06:51] <furrywolf> :P
[10:08:40] <furrywolf> blah, bbl, time for work.
[10:40:56] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel2: are there any mil spec laptops with 17"+ screens
[10:41:18] <CaptHindsight> rugged/mil spec getac, toughbook etc
[10:45:55] <FinboySlick> Do you want the 17" for the size itself or just the resolution? I don't really know of any mil-spec that size but some 15" offer you 1920x1080 in a tough format.
[10:46:48] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: size and res
[10:47:16] <CaptHindsight> LCD makers have finally broken the 1080p barrier
[10:48:01] <FinboySlick> Precision are fairly durable considering that they're Dell. I'd typically prefer lenovo, but they're pretty far in the race the bottom too apparently.
[10:48:06] <CaptHindsight> LG 2560×1700 13″ 3:2 WQXGA for instance
[10:48:45] <CaptHindsight> designing and building my own now
[10:48:55] <CaptHindsight> laptops, not displays
[10:49:22] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Oh, that project with memleaks you mentioned last week?
[10:49:34] <CaptHindsight> yes
[10:49:55] <FinboySlick> I'm not in the market for a laptop but if I were, I'd be pretty interested.
[10:50:10] <CaptHindsight> makes things like this easier
[10:51:11] <CaptHindsight> big displays are like carrying a pizza box or suitcase around
[10:54:05] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: know anything about these boards? I got a coupon and can get this for $9 http://www.frys.com/product/8136085?site=premail020515
[10:54:34] <CaptHindsight> between cnc machining and SLA, laptop enclosures can be made in small runs
[10:55:27] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: don't have that exact board but those are nice
[10:55:51] <CaptHindsight> socket AM1 do the APU's are low cost
[10:55:55] <CaptHindsight> do/so
[10:57:06] <mozmck> I might have to pick up one or more then at that price.
[10:57:23] <CaptHindsight> a bargain
[10:57:39] <mozmck> will those run linuxcnc well?
[10:59:02] <CaptHindsight> yes
[10:59:58] <CaptHindsight> http://www.frys.com/product/8080894 dual core $35
[11:00:30] <CaptHindsight> the RTAI in the latest live cd is a bit old
[11:00:42] <mozmck> what is the difference between athlon and sempron?
[11:01:09] <CaptHindsight> memleak sorted out the scheduler so it has low latency and smooth accel video at the same time
[11:01:36] <mozmck> nice, I think I'll try and pick one up
[11:02:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/amd-introduces-2014apr9.aspx
[11:28:14] <Connor> PetefromTn_: What E-Stop switch did you end up getting?
[11:29:15] <PetefromTn_> that cheapass one everyone is lamenting LOL
[11:29:40] <Connor> Yea, I don't know which one that is or where they're getting it from.
[11:29:51] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/xPJm85t.jpg
[11:30:16] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261623325153?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
[11:31:37] <zeeshan> i have that ateact one
[11:31:37] <zeeshan> lol
[11:31:37] <Connor> this is the one I have. or very similar http://www.ebay.com/itm/22MM-Emergency-Stop-Switch-Red-380V-Max-NO-NC-10A-Contacts-E-stop-Twist-Release-/291280899817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d1b1cee9
[11:31:57] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-CUTLER-HAMMER-EATON-PUSH-BUTTON-KEY-SWITCH-LIGHTS-E22D-E22B1-E-STOP-MORE-/201280099553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edd3a94e1
[11:31:58] <zeeshan> get proper ones!
[11:32:11] <PetefromTn_> I'm fine with it heh
[11:35:26] <CaptHindsight> they look SLA printed http://images.sciencedaily.com/2015/02/150204144517-large.jpg
[11:36:02] <CaptHindsight> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150204144517.htm Smartphone, finger prick, 15 minute diagnosis for HIV and syphilis biomarkers
[11:43:25] <TekniQue> finally a viable alternative to the condom
[11:46:04] <roycroft> i thought the pocket protector was the best alternative to the condom
[11:46:37] <TekniQue> haha
[12:33:39] <assanaway> i've recompiled linuxcnc to lastest version but now i get "can't get module 'par_port' in /linuxcnc/rtlib"
[12:44:32] <Connor> zeeshan: any news on the driver issues ?
[12:55:11] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Maybe try ##electronics - flip of a coin, but maybe worth a try:)
[13:11:10] <zeeshan> connor nah
[13:11:12] <zeeshan> pretty much lost
[13:21:48] <Tom_itx> Connor, one of those relays is tied to the pwm signal.
[13:22:19] <Tom_itx> it flips once lcnc is loaded and responds to M3 M4
[13:44:26] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, do you speak Arduino?
[14:36:16] <Tom_itx> i try not to but i know avr fairly well
[14:38:34] <Tom_itx> bbl if you need help...
[14:40:29] <jdh> JT: what are you looking for?
[14:40:51] <Tom_itx> i think he probably want's to compile marlin and set up his graphic display
[14:40:54] <Tom_itx> if i were guessin
[14:42:07] <Tom_itx> there's a configuration.h file you will need to look at for some settings...
[14:42:13] <Tom_itx> bak in a couple hrs
[15:09:34] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I have questions
[15:10:26] <tjb1> or jthornton
[15:13:32] <tjb1> JT-Woods: ?
[15:13:42] <JT-Woods> Yep
[15:13:50] <tjb1> You do any sand casting?
[15:14:10] <tjb1> green sand
[15:14:30] <JT-Woods> Do I need to use win doze to load firmware into the ramps
[15:14:39] <tjb1> you need Arduino IDE
[15:14:48] <JT-Woods> I will do sand casting
[15:14:56] <JT-Woods> Ok
[15:14:58] <tjb1> You never have before though?
[15:15:12] <JT-Woods> No
[15:15:22] <tjb1> Do you have any of the sand?
[15:15:51] <JT-Woods> I think I have the ide from playing with the uno
[15:16:14] <JT-Woods> 100 mesh sand and bentonite
[15:16:31] <JT-Woods> And a muller
[15:16:54] <tjb1> Trying to find a solution to keep the silver solder from getting in the order hole in the carbide bushing
[15:17:13] <tjb1> oxide paint isnt working very well
[15:17:35] <tjb1> thinking we are going to try packing the carbide with casting sand and then brazing them in
[15:18:34] <CaptHindsight> whats the size of the hole?
[15:18:39] <tjb1> CaptHindsight: varies
[15:18:40] <JT-Woods> You can get two different casting sand
[15:18:55] <tjb1> JT-Woods: I found a source for water bonded and ordered that today
[15:19:03] <JT-Woods> Water based and oil based
[15:19:15] <tjb1> Problem is I don't know if the operator can properly wet it when it dries out
[15:19:40] <JT-Woods> It needs to be mulled after use
[15:19:53] <tjb1> what does the mulling do exactly?
[15:20:34] <JT-Woods> Forces the bentonite to surround the sand particles
[15:20:54] <tjb1> What processes can do that?
[15:21:02] <JT-Woods> Look like a drum with two wheels
[15:21:32] <zeeshan> tjb1: it just mixes the sandf up
[15:21:44] <tjb1> Can it be done by hand?
[15:21:50] <JT-Woods> Or in my case a concrete mixer and a cannon ball
[15:21:52] <tjb1> I mean the max hole size is maybe an inch or so
[15:21:54] <zeeshan> yea
[15:21:58] <zeeshan> but youre arms are gonna kill!
[15:21:58] <tjb1> so not very much sand will be used
[15:22:01] <JT-Woods> Not very well
[15:22:26] <JT-Woods> Just toss it and use fresh
[15:22:39] <tjb1> This is for carbide guide bushings
[15:22:59] <zeeshan> youre casting carbide?
[15:23:02] <tjb1> no
[15:23:08] <tjb1> brazing the carbide into the collet
[15:23:55] <tjb1> zeeshan: trying to find a way to prevent the solder from getting into the hole
[15:24:00] <JT-Woods> Any way to not get flux into the center
[15:24:24] <tjb1> JT-Woods: not really, only around .010 tolerance between carbide and hole
[15:24:39] <JT-Woods> Ok
[15:25:23] <tjb1> Guess we will try packing with sand
[15:25:33] <tjb1> Might be cheaper than the oxide paint they use
[15:25:40] <tjb1> so maybe it will be consumable
[15:25:49] <JT-Woods> Yea
[15:26:19] <tjb1> next issue is finding a way to center the carbide
[15:27:32] <JT-Woods> I'd need a picture to visualize that
[15:28:41] <tjb1> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wpHEUEGnL._SX342_.jpg
[15:28:44] <tjb1> probably not big enough
[15:29:05] <tjb1> carbide is sometimes getting pushed off to side of hole
[15:29:37] <tjb1> solution is much harder due to the fact that the through hole has been measured to have .009" runout on the last few samples
[15:29:40] <toast-work> tjb1: is the hole already in the carbide?
[15:29:43] <tjb1> yes
[15:29:53] <toast-work> what's the tolerance on the diameter
[15:30:05] <toast-work> (of that center hole)
[15:30:06] <JT-Woods> Arg can't dl photo not enough signal
[15:30:08] <tjb1> Supposed to be .002 but I dont think the supplier is holding it
[15:30:28] <tjb1> oh the center hole? we grind that after brazing
[15:30:44] <toast-work> what I suggest is turning a carbon rod into a very gradual taper (like .010 over 5-6 inches)
[15:30:46] <toast-work> and plug the hole
[15:31:02] <toast-work> the brazing won't stick to the carbon and you can just pull it out
[15:31:36] <tjb1> Ill check on that tomorrow
[15:31:45] <tjb1> I think we have around 40 different carbide inserts though
[15:31:57] <toast-work> that's generally how repair shops operate when they have to braze things like gears
[15:32:04] <toast-work> they use a lot of carbon shims/etc
[15:32:43] <tjb1> thanks toast-work, that's a good one
[15:32:57] <toast-work> no probs
[15:33:16] <tjb1> we already work with carbon for the EDMs
[15:33:35] <tjb1> well graphite
[15:33:38] <toast-work> same thing
[15:33:45] <toast-work> (close enough for this, anyway)
[15:33:51] <witnit_> jb1 do you guys cut form tools hss?
[15:33:53] <tjb1> I think they mentioned for the smaller ones they were putting pencil lead in them and it wasnt working
[15:34:03] <toast-work> pencil lead is heavily clayed
[15:34:08] <tjb1> witnit_: ??
[15:34:18] <toast-work> also if you can, tap the graphite out while the thing is still hot
[15:34:19] <witnit_> with edm, to you cut sutom forming tools
[15:34:22] <witnit_> custom
[15:34:28] <tjb1> witnit_: I dont know, I dont deal with any of that
[15:34:31] <toast-work> otherwise you're going to shrink fit to the graphite
[15:34:48] <tjb1> toast-work: I know they brought a few in today that had .018 holes in the carbide
[15:34:59] <tjb1> but those holes are finished on the EDM so it doesnt matter
[15:35:34] <JT-Woods> Gotta go battery running low ttyl
[15:36:02] <tjb1> cya JT-Woods
[15:36:07] <witnit_> gwon need a crank charger :)
[15:36:50] <tjb1> toast-work: they braze them with a tocco
[15:37:02] <toast-work> don't know what a tocco is
[15:37:04] <toast-work> sry
[15:37:32] <tjb1> coil generates magnetic field around it
[15:37:59] <witnit_> induction brazing?
[15:38:06] <tjb1> yes
[15:38:58] <tjb1> I'll have to find out what the smallest hole we grind is and look into the carbon rods
[15:42:38] <tjb1> toast-work: the graphite on mcmaster says the max temperature is 800F
[15:46:24] <toast-work> look for carbon, but I don't know what they mean by "max" here
[15:46:36] <toast-work> graphite will handle temps way over 800F
[15:46:46] <toast-work> i'm not sure if they've got some weird mucked up graphite?
[15:47:00] <toast-work> personally I'd buy it and give it a shot anyway because i don't trust that rating
[15:48:42] <CaptHindsight> will the carbon burn?
[15:49:02] <CaptHindsight> I wonder if they use a binder and thats why it has the temp rating
[15:49:51] <toast-work> carbon "burns", yes
[15:49:57] <toast-work> it erodes in high temp over time
[15:49:59] <toast-work> (co2)
[15:50:17] <toast-work> but you usually see that in direct-arc type situations
[15:50:30] <CaptHindsight> in the plasma
[15:51:01] <toast-work> not necessarily, just on the hot end of it
[15:51:04] <toast-work> not because of the plasma
[15:51:35] <toast-work> few other situations wind up with really hot blocks of carbon in contact with oxygen and not much else
[15:52:56] <tjb1> Getting tired of ordering carbide centers
[15:53:08] <tjb1> Need the dummies to stop smacking them and cracking them
[15:53:29] <toast-work> hahaha
[15:53:36] <toast-work> why carbide centers?
[15:53:56] <tjb1> grinding hard collets
[15:54:01] <tjb1> all dead
[15:54:22] <toast-work> ah
[15:54:53] <tjb1> my boss is real happy he has to order another $1k in centers because the other manager ordered the wrong ones
[15:55:49] <Jymmm> sarcasium?
[15:55:53] <tjb1> yes
[15:56:01] <tjb1> I assume they are going to have a nice talk
[15:56:08] <Jymmm> cant return the other ones?
[15:56:16] <tjb1> since I handle all the shop fixturing/tooling so he should have went through me
[15:56:19] <tjb1> no, they are custom
[15:56:28] <Jymmm> Lovely
[15:56:44] <Jymmm> sell em on ebay
[15:56:50] <tjb1> too big for that Jymmm
[15:56:59] <Jymmm> cragislist?
[15:57:04] <tjb1> the company is too big
[15:57:09] <tjb1> they dont do stuff like that
[15:57:28] <Jymmm> Eh, take the profits and throw a company party
[15:57:35] <tjb1> probably end up sending them somewhere in the shop where they might be used and ordering the other ones anyway
[15:58:46] <tjb1> was brought up today that they should maybe stop grinding the tailstocks to the point where we can no longer use standard centers and just rebuild the tailstock instead
[15:59:35] <witnit_> if they can be reworked for a similar job, your supplier might be happy to take them back
[16:00:02] <tjb1> witnit_: I doubt it, I have enough trouble getting quotes from them
[16:00:03] <witnit_> just not at much value of course
[16:00:15] <toast-work> tjb1: are you looking for the positional accuracy of the center, or rotational accuracy
[16:00:30] <witnit_> do you have the power to change suppliers?
[16:00:33] <tjb1> toast-work: rotation
[16:00:39] <tjb1> witnit_: not many that do custom carbide centers
[16:00:42] <tjb1> I only know of Riten
[16:00:42] <toast-work> so this may sound again like an oddball suggestion
[16:00:52] <tjb1> toast-work: make a sleeve?
[16:01:02] <toast-work> i used to work in a shop that made air bearings
[16:01:10] <toast-work> and they're stupid easy to make, especially oriface-type bearings for spindles
[16:01:53] <toast-work> I'd make a MT5 (or whatever) taper air bearing, and put a thrust bearing on the back end of it - that would give me rotational accuracy much better than .00001, and i could tension it with a washer sitting on the thrust bearing off the back
[16:02:29] <toast-work> lap the two together for a bit, turn the air on.
[16:02:37] <tjb1> taper has air cushion between center and sleeve?
[16:02:53] <witnit_> tjbi whats the largest diameter on those
[16:03:00] <tjb1> witnit_: on what?
[16:03:01] <toast-work> tjb1: yep
[16:03:02] <witnit_> hahaha i get your name wrong everytime
[16:03:04] <toast-work> except it's not a cushion
[16:03:11] <witnit_> just the centers
[16:03:17] <toast-work> in most cases it's quite a deal more rigid than the equivalent ball bearings
[16:03:25] <tjb1> toast-work: that wont fly, too many machines
[16:03:26] <toast-work> esp when you add preload
[16:03:27] <furrywolf> today is a good day to not go outside. $#@ing rain.
[16:03:36] <toast-work> ah
[16:03:49] <tjb1> toast-work: does grinding grit affect it?
[16:03:55] <toast-work> negative, they're non-contact
[16:03:59] <tjb1> many of these run dry
[16:04:08] <toast-work> surface finish is much better, and rotational accuracy is much better
[16:05:06] <toast-work> like, rotational accuracy in the millionths of an inch
[16:05:29] <toast-work> an operator touching the bearing affects the bearing more than any error in the bearing itself
[16:06:30] <furrywolf> that's true of cars too. a very large portion of the bad bearings I've seen has been becuase someone touched them. lolk
[16:06:47] <toast-work> (from the heat deforming it)
[16:07:09] <toast-work> but the constant inflow of air means grit/abrasives stay out
[16:07:09] * furrywolf has a very, very low opinion of your average mechanic.
[16:07:24] <toast-work> and you can regrind a soft steel center right on the machine
[16:07:29] <toast-work> and it won't affect anything
[16:07:46] <tjb1> toast-work: how do you grind the center if that applies a side load?
[16:07:51] <toast-work> ?
[16:08:18] <tjb1> Guess I dont really understand how the air is used in the center
[16:08:19] <toast-work> let me mspaint something real fast
[16:09:42] <witnit_> this should be good
[16:09:43] <witnit_> :)
[16:10:06] <furrywolf> yay, several flood watches issued today.
[16:10:33] <tjb1> furrywolf: You could come here, its 13F...no worry of rain
[16:10:50] <furrywolf> we're supposed to get 8-12" of rain by tomorrow night.
[16:10:55] <CaptHindsight> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-poem-that-passed-the-turing-test I for one welcome our new poetry writing overlords.
[16:11:49] <tjb1> furrywolf: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zc7qb37mgs9sv6/2015-02-02%2015.43.45.jpg?dl=0
[16:13:38] <furrywolf> yes. one inch of rain is 13 inches of snow. we're getting water equivalent to 9-13ft of snow.
[16:14:30] <toast-work> so i can't really draw well enough
[16:14:37] <furrywolf> also, that looks like pretty thin snow, and plowed. :P
[16:15:00] <toast-work> tjb1: the air is a fluid film that provides a bearing
[16:15:05] <toast-work> like a hovercraft
[16:15:10] <toast-work> so the spindle floats in the taper
[16:15:36] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepsnow02.jpg last time I did any driving in real snow... that's heading back over my own tire tracks.
[16:15:40] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Just goes to show that people just don't have taste, and any amount of poo can indeed smell like a rose.
[16:15:45] <toast-work> however, with high pressure air and preload (something pulling the center into the spindle taper), the gap between the center and the spindle is very, very small
[16:15:49] <toast-work> and it takes a huge amount of force to move
[16:16:19] <toast-work> think of a balloon; the walls of the balloon are being pushed away by air
[16:16:37] <toast-work> if you pop a hole in the side of the balloon, the air starts to go out and it deflates
[16:16:40] <Jymmm> nitrogen
[16:16:58] <toast-work> but if you inject air back into the balloon at the same speed (or faster) as it escapes, the balloon remains inflated even though it's leaking air
[16:16:59] <Jymmm> I refer inny-outty
[16:17:25] <Jymmm> Beans Beans the musical fruit, the more you eat, the more you toot!
[16:17:58] <toast-work> so what's happening is you're injecting air into this gap between the spindle and center, and it's applying whatever pressure it's at on the walls
[16:18:20] <furrywolf> I think that's a sad comment on poetry and art, rather than a positive comment on artificial intelligence... that most poetry is so bad that no one would notice if it were written by a machine.
[16:18:42] <Jymmm> Like a mudder in law
[16:20:08] <Jymmm> toast-work: I'ma assuming you are taking about spindle that "floats" on air?
[16:20:29] <toast-work> Jymmm: standard oriface air bearing
[16:20:35] <Jymmm> toast-work: ah
[16:21:12] <Jymmm> toast-work: I wonder if floating magnetic is practical for bearings
[16:21:14] <toast-work> except the spindle in this case would be a center, floating in a stator that was MT5 or whatever
[16:21:39] <toast-work> with tension provided by a rear thrust air bearing with a bolt going through it into the center
[16:21:51] <furrywolf> I would think that for high rigidity, you'd want to use oil instead of air, or you'd need pretty high pressure air.
[16:22:09] <toast-work> nope
[16:22:12] <toast-work> oil gaps have to be very large
[16:22:44] <toast-work> and the design of the oriface and pad is much more involved (there's passive feedback hydraulic circuits in an oil bearing that's fully static)
[16:22:50] <Jymmm> I wonder if different inert gasses would have dirrct efects
[16:22:52] <furrywolf> perhaps, but oil gets dragged along with rotating parts and is hard to squish out, while air squishes out really easily.
[16:23:11] <toast-work> air also gets dragged along, and works just as well in that regard
[16:23:29] <furrywolf> usually I think of air bearings for low force applications (like overpriced hifi turntables), or things with really high rpm, where the air doesn't squish out as relatively quickly.
[16:23:30] <toast-work> the advantage to oil is higher pressure and thus more load bearing before ground out; the bearing overall is less accurate and less stable
[16:23:51] <toast-work> on any decent size bearing air works just fine
[16:24:03] <toast-work> way more accurate, less complicated bearing design, more rigid
[16:24:29] <toast-work> the only downside is the ground out force is lower, but if you're injecting 120 psi air into the pad, that's plenty of force for most applications
[16:25:18] <furrywolf> even if you have a dozen square inches of surface area, and precisely drilled orifices off an abundant air supply, you're still taking a thousand pounds of force before it mashes into the side and chews itself to bits... and while that may sound like a big number, it's probably not in machining terms, especially if something goes wrong.
[16:26:07] <toast-work> it's actually plenty in most machining cases?
[16:26:33] <toast-work> I used to work for a company that made air bearings, so I am at least semi-familiar with what they can and can't do
[16:27:10] <tjb1> thanks for the ideas toast-work, going to go play with printer now
[16:27:11] <furrywolf> heh. I think they have their uses, but I don't expect to see them in your average machine shop any time soon.
[16:27:33] <toast-work> don't expect to see oil bearings either, for all the same reasons
[16:30:01] <furrywolf> I use oil bearings to get to and from my machine shop, does that count? :)
[16:30:34] <toast-work> nope
[16:31:25] <toast-work> the oil bearing in your car has absolutely nothing in common with the oil bearing you'd find in a big machine tool
[16:31:44] <furrywolf> if you ever need proof that fluid bearings work, just consider that car engines are swinging around pistons with thousands of pounds of force exploding against them, with nothing but a thin film of oil holding it apart.
[16:31:46] <CaptHindsight> I use air bearings all the time in printers. There's no contact like with cutting tools but we whip axes around at a few G's
[16:32:04] <toast-work> where did you get the idea i said fluid bearings don't work?
[16:32:38] <furrywolf> "if you ever need", not "you need now" :P
[16:32:40] <toast-work> CaptHindsight: we remade these giant bearings for a paper mill
[16:33:01] <toast-work> like 10" in diameter, 18" long or so
[16:33:06] <CaptHindsight> toast-work: did they make paper or mill it? :)
[16:33:09] <toast-work> no idea
[16:33:14] <furrywolf> lol
[16:33:22] <toast-work> making paper, I believe? they were for rolls?
[16:33:32] <toast-work> for calendaring the paper
[16:34:18] <CaptHindsight> I once updated a big paper slitter that held several ton rolls
[16:35:09] <CaptHindsight> forgot how many RPM it would spin 4-5' diameter rolls
[16:35:19] <CaptHindsight> but that thing would really move
[16:36:39] <Deejay> gn8
[16:36:51] <furrywolf> big paper machines are impressive... many many years of fine-tuning designs to make them work well.
[16:37:43] <furrywolf> unfortunately, they closed down the local pulp mill, which was the closest thing we had to any of that. heh.
[16:38:28] <furrywolf> the owners simply abandonned it, and now the county and epa are having to dismantle, clean up, and scrap everything.
[16:38:51] <furrywolf> they abandonned it with all the chemicals still on-site, in rusty leaking tanks.
[16:39:28] <furrywolf> the epa got to clean up 3 million gallons of chemicals.
[16:40:48] <Jymmm> Anything worth having?
[16:40:58] <Jymmm> Halon? 111?
[16:41:00] <cradek> yeah, the epa
[16:41:11] <Jymmm> MEK?
[16:41:17] <furrywolf> probably not.
[16:41:24] <Jymmm> bummer.
[16:42:12] <Jymmm> I'm saving my 111 for a special occasion
[16:42:29] <furrywolf> they found another pulp mill two states away that would take the chemicals free if they were trucked up there... so we trucked 3 million gallons of chemicals from california to washington.
[16:43:37] <Jymmm> tanker or trailer?
[16:44:10] <furrywolf> trucked.
[16:44:17] <Jymmm> ah
[16:44:24] <furrywolf> ... tanker trailers. :P
[16:44:38] <Jymmm> box trailer or milk truck basically
[16:45:25] <furrywolf> http://lostcoastoutpost.com/media/uploads/post/11185/10155020_10203280214663261_737326788_n.jpg there's the back of one.
[16:45:30] * furrywolf can't find a photo of a whole one
[16:45:53] <Jymmm> OH, so a tanker afterall. YEOW
[16:46:15] <malcom2073_> Haha
[16:46:20] <malcom2073_> that dude is totaly questioning his life decisions
[16:46:20] <Jymmm> 4300 gallon undrground tank... ya know that thing leaked
[16:47:07] <Jymmm> malcom2073_: Shit, I have a P95 respirator, which I had a fully self-contained one
[16:47:13] <Jymmm> wish*
[16:47:29] <furrywolf> they ALL leaked. note the stains down the side in random places.
[16:47:36] <Jymmm> Damn, he duct taped his wrists too
[16:47:59] <furrywolf> the owners abandonned the plant in a state of disrepair, with over three million gallons of chemicals and hazardous waste on-site...
[16:48:16] <Jymmm> then disolussioned the company
[16:48:21] <furrywolf> some of the tanks had the tops cave in and were overflowing as the rainwater ran in....
[16:48:31] <Jymmm> Nice
[16:50:30] <furrywolf> apparantly the plant was poorly inspected, and no one knew how bad its condition was until the owners abandonned it... after it was clear it wasn't re-opening, various agencies started to notice it was a serious hazard, and the epa was called in.
[16:54:58] <furrywolf> the epa is trying to bill the previous owners some number of millions of dollars for the cleanup project, but as you can guess, it ain't happening. the county is footing a lot of the bill.
[16:56:12] <furrywolf> the local seafood farm, in the bay next to the pulp mill, loaned the county $1.25m to get the cleanup started, because the tanks were starting to leak right into the bay...
[16:58:00] <JT-Shop> tjb1, a carbide liner in the collet?
[17:00:09] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you get your ardweenie questions figured out?
[17:00:29] <JT-Shop> no, I was out in the woods
[17:00:37] <JT-Shop> well maybe
[17:00:53] <Tom_itx> just download their ide and install it on winblows
[17:01:02] <Tom_itx> they use avrdude to download
[17:02:13] <JT-Shop> I think I have it down in the beer cave, when playing with the uno
[17:02:44] <Tom_itx> the last one i downloaded was 2.3... no idea what rev they're up to now
[17:03:16] <JT-Shop> I'll just d/l it out here tomorrow
[17:03:20] <Tom_itx> they hide the .hex file once you compile it though
[17:03:46] <Tom_itx> it's in some obscure user directory iirc
[17:04:15] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, do you have the arduino 2560?
[17:04:30] <Tom_itx> probably, since you have the ramps 1.4...
[17:05:04] <Tom_itx> i got one of the 2560 boards but never got the ramps
[17:05:11] <Tom_itx> just to mess with
[17:05:41] <JT-Shop> yea, a 2560
[17:05:42] <furrywolf> heh! did some more reading, apparantly the executives of the company that owned the mill have fled the country, presumably to make sure the epa never gets repaid for the cleanup.
[17:07:28] <furrywolf> run the mill into the ground, take the money and run. sounds like a plan.
[17:08:15] <tjb1> JT-Shop: swiss guide bushings
[17:08:41] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[17:10:04] <georgenz> Hey guys... i finally have gotten a servo motor and drive talking to the pc... its hunting really badly, whats the best method to tune?
[17:10:30] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/index.html
[17:11:22] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop that programmer you got from me some time back should work on that if you need one
[17:11:47] <JT-Shop> tjb1, do I need the taurinopower drivers ?
[17:11:52] <georgenz> Thx...
[17:11:55] <tjb1> JT-Shop: yes
[17:12:01] <JT-Shop> ok
[17:12:03] <tjb1> JT-Shop: http://arduino.cc/en/main/software
[17:12:08] <tjb1> you can get it for linux
[17:12:54] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, can't you use the USB to u/l the program?
[17:13:04] <Tom_itx> you should be able to
[17:13:31] <Tom_itx> tjb1 do they use serial to talk to their bootloader? i can't remember.. it's been too long
[17:13:41] <Tom_itx> or can you use a regular ISP programmer?
[17:14:29] <Jymmm> http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ArduinoISP
[17:14:35] <JT-Shop> tjb1, it looks easier to use my windoze computer to u/l the program, the linux one needs all sorts of stuff
[17:14:40] <Tom_itx> pretty sure you can just upload since the code comiles to load in regular flash
[17:14:53] <Tom_itx> you just don't want to overwrite their bootloader
[17:14:55] <Jymmm> This allows you to use the board to burn the bootloader onto an AVR
[17:15:03] <Tom_itx> yes
[17:15:19] <Tom_itx> you can also upload the program with ISP too
[17:15:26] <Tom_itx> it just has to load in the right place
[17:15:40] <Jymmm> that's what that link says confirming what you said
[17:16:00] <Tom_itx> yes, you need ISP to upload their bootloader initially
[17:16:23] <JT-Shop> gotta run but I have the IDE up and running on my windoze box
[17:16:28] <Tom_itx> their uno emulated a serial connection
[17:16:34] <JT-Shop> more fun tomorrow
[17:16:43] <Tom_itx> i can dig my board out if need be
[17:16:49] <Tom_itx> it's just collecting dust
[17:18:05] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Digispark-Kickstarter-ATTINY85-Arduino-General-Micro-USB-Development-Board-/301374892391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462b57e967
[17:18:44] <georgenz> Am trying to tune out the oscillating in my servo... i have tried setting P from 0.1 to 100 but just oscillates faster or slower... any suggestions?
[17:19:32] <JT-Shop> your drive may not be tuned
[17:21:50] <georgenz> Ok... ill try read the manual, anyone familiar with teco drives?
[17:22:21] <furrywolf> rtfming is often a good step. :)
[17:22:43] <_methods> pretty sure pete is
[17:22:49] <_methods> i think he's got teco drives
[17:23:09] <georgenz> Except when the manual is verbose and in comprehendable
[17:23:52] <PCW> do your drives have tachometers?
[17:24:00] <furrywolf> hrmm... engrish? graduese?
[17:25:07] <georgenz> Engrish
[17:26:41] <PCW> a velocity mode drive with no working tachometer (or encoder velocity) feedback will be hard to tune
[17:28:37] <furrywolf> hrmm, engrish drive manual... for most happy drive, the connection motor lead must follow complete sequence. to complete begin of rotational harmonizing, initial ampere profit adjustment of potential should be fixed to half position. if motor is ill, fix the ampere profit adjustment to a reduced allocation. if the motor is...
[17:29:16] <georgenz> Haha
[17:29:34] <georgenz> Diagrams dont correlate to plugs etc
[17:29:45] <georgenz> It has an encoder on back
[17:29:58] * furrywolf has had to translate some quite interesting engrish over the years
[17:30:42] <georgenz> I bought it frm machmotion n would have assumed it wss ready to go. It oscillates real bad then trips on motor overload
[17:31:22] <furrywolf> sounds like some gain setting set wrong, but I've never tuned a servo.
[17:32:42] <furrywolf> and, sadly, those instructions I wrote look way too much like things I've had to read. lol
[17:34:09] <georgenz> Haha
[17:34:35] <witnit_> I went through a very professional approach tuning my servos, I put my hand on the motor and started changing variables one at a time until it "seemed right" hahaha
[17:34:51] <georgenz> I would have thought everything would autotune these days... we r not in the 80s
[17:34:55] <furrywolf> yeah, that's where I'd start too.
[17:37:11] <PCW> if these are modern TECO drives make sure you set them into velocity mode
[17:37:17] <witnit_> dont let your motors set there and vibrate due to overcorrecting. i can say its not good on them
[17:37:25] <witnit_> on the amps and such anyhow
[17:37:44] <furrywolf> dunno, I could think of a use for some strong vibrations...
[17:37:44] <georgenz> I jst flip them on and off they r set to velocity mode
[17:37:57] <witnit_> ajahjahjaa youuuuuu
[17:39:05] <PCW> do you all PID params set to 0 except P?
[17:39:17] <PCW> do you have ^
[17:39:34] <furrywolf> does it oscillate even if you ground the control input?
[17:40:49] <georgenz> Hold on... i will check
[17:41:27] <PCW> disconnect from source before shorting :-)
[17:41:57] * furrywolf just wants to check if the oscillations are coming from the software side or the tach loop side
[17:42:25] <PetefromTn_> sorry guys
[17:42:32] <PetefromTn_> I was out in the shop running these parts
[17:42:37] <witnit_> its okay pete we forgive you
[17:42:46] <witnit_> dont we guys
[17:42:54] <witnit_> guys?
[17:43:00] <witnit_> =D
[17:43:13] <PetefromTn_> georgenz you need to open that machine_ calibration tab
[17:43:30] <PetefromTn_> and tell us what you have in there for the axis you are working on presuming X axis..
[17:44:08] <PetefromTn_> understand that even tho my drives were pre tuned by machmotion they WILL vibrate really bad once linuxCNC enables them if your linuxCNC PID tuning settings are not correct.
[17:44:22] <PetefromTn_> There is a tutorial JT did somewhere that we followed on mine.
[17:45:00] <PetefromTn_> I would go ahead and assume Machmotion did their job because they told me they do that to alll the drives they sell when packaged as a motor/drive/cables combo like I got and I believe you bought the same thing.
[17:46:12] * furrywolf didn't get enough sleep last night (thanks zee!), and now is unmotivated, and not working on the mill...
[17:46:38] <PetefromTn_> some others on here are better at the tuning work than I am for sure and maybe they can chime in here.
[17:46:44] <witnit_> I think pcw is having him ground the input to see if they are going to oscl8 without linuxcnc interfering
[17:46:59] <witnit_> or any stray noise for that matter
[17:47:22] <furrywolf> no, that was me, and I already said I'm not the most clueful when it comes to tuning. heh.
[17:48:03] <PetefromTn_> well he surely knows better than I do about this so I bow to his prodigious knowledge...I'm not worthy LOL
[17:48:06] <georgenz> When disconnected and grounded, the motor doesnt vibrate much, slowly rotates
[17:48:08] <witnit_> one thing i did was mount a servo to my desk and just play with different tuning, then i attached a load to it and tried again
[17:48:20] <witnit_> you seem to learn alot when there is a load with inertia on it
[17:48:23] <furrywolf> slowly rotates is normal
[17:48:29] <PetefromTn_> he has the servos inside the machine but not hooked to the screws yet.
[17:48:37] <PCW> do you have all PID params set to 0 except P?
[17:48:39] <georgenz> That is the analog input to the drive
[17:49:05] <furrywolf> how slow is slowly? I'd figure a couple rpm tops.
[17:49:06] <PetefromTn_> georgenz in case you are not aware PCW here is Pete from Mesa and knows EVERYTHING basically..
[17:49:28] <PCW> tuning will be harder with bare motors
[17:49:33] <georgenz> Ok cool
[17:49:44] <PetefromTn_> go ahead and open that calibration tab and tell us what your settings are for the X
[17:49:51] <PCW> Yeah
[17:50:04] <georgenz> I will jst plug back in.. i had had petes pid settings, i will reset all
[17:50:33] <PCW> creeping slowly is a good sign for velocity mode when enabled but 0 input
[17:50:37] <PetefromTn_> you can start with them but hard to tell if they will be right. There is a specific order of adjustment on themm.
[17:50:56] <PetefromTn_> trying to find that damn page JT made
[17:51:04] <PetefromTn_> or was it cradek..
[17:52:02] <Jymmm> Servoe Tuning Tutorial http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[17:52:10] <PetefromTn_> thank you jymm
[17:52:16] <Jymmm> Servo Tuning Tutorial http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[17:52:17] <Jymmm> np
[17:53:17] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: BTW... https://www.google.com/search?q=pid+tuning+linuxcnc
[17:53:39] <georgenz> Ok... all are now 0 except P which is 12
[17:54:18] <georgenz> Thx Jymmm will bookmark
[17:54:57] <Jymmm> =)
[17:55:41] <PetefromTn_> basically what you want to do as I recall is increase P until you get oscillation and then back off then add a small amount of FF1 until it smooths out basically...
[17:55:51] <PCW> is this an inch or mm machine?
[17:56:03] <georgenz> mm
[17:56:06] <PetefromTn_> understand that you do not need to restart to make changes..
[17:56:18] <PetefromTn_> yeah his machine is metric ON PURPOSE LOL
[17:56:31] <georgenz> I now have P set at 1, oscillation is much reduced
[17:56:51] <georgenz> Well, why would I want to change a good thing??
[17:57:09] <furrywolf> my machine reads inches on x and y, mm on z. yay china.
[17:57:13] <PCW> are there any filter options on the velocity input
[17:57:47] <PetefromTn_> when you say oscillation do you mean just the dithering noise or is it vibratory movement back and forth bad
[17:58:07] <PCW> actually before that is the axis scaling correct?
[17:58:25] <georgenz> Yes the axis scaling is correct
[17:59:00] <PCW> what are encoder counts per turn?
[17:59:01] <georgenz> It was bad... now is good, P is now on , everything else 0
[17:59:19] <georgenz> I think it was not setting everything else to 0 that caused my problems
[17:59:22] <georgenz> 2500
[18:00:09] <PCW> velocity mode drives are tuned mostly with P and FF1
[18:00:28] <PCW> (and a bit of FF2 when close)
[18:00:34] <georgenz> Ok... i have never heard og the FF b4 now
[18:01:21] <PCW> feedback is great but its always late :-)
[18:01:37] <PetefromTn_> read that tuning tutorial you need to jog the motor a bit to see the results of the P adjustment really
[18:01:43] <PetefromTn_> it is more than just making it quiet
[18:01:54] <georgenz> So I have it stable with P of 6, which FF do I play with to reduce motor noise?
[18:02:06] <PCW> FF is not for that
[18:02:09] <PetefromTn_> then keep increasing it until oscillates and back off
[18:02:51] <georgenz> Yeah... starts to oscillate at 7
[18:03:06] <PCW> FF1 is for forwarding the velocity command to the drive
[18:03:12] <PetefromTn_> it doesn't have to be whole numbers either
[18:03:14] <witnit_> you do not have a load on the motors at all?
[18:03:16] <furrywolf> pete: what is your P?
[18:03:27] <PetefromTn_> mine will be completely different now
[18:03:47] <PCW> you should be able to use higher P when you have a load
[18:03:48] <georgenz> Ok
[18:03:52] <witnit_> this process will have to be done all over when you have the load
[18:03:53] <PetefromTn_> he has all the metric numbers I had he has ALL of my config files and everything
[18:04:06] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[18:04:13] <georgenz> That is fine... as long as I get a handle on it now
[18:04:18] <PetefromTn_> the Z is the worst....
[18:04:33] <PetefromTn_> almost terrifying tuning that bastard LOL
[18:04:34] <PCW> you can make the PID numbers the same by scaling properly
[18:04:39] <georgenz> Is the Z pitch the same as xy?
[18:05:06] * furrywolf could use some Zs... thanks to a trying to help someone here way too late at night.
[18:05:14] <witnit_> I printed off the some parts of the chat log and stapled it to my PID tuning manual when I started out. it helped me make sense of what parts were on my amp and what parts were on linuxcnc
[18:05:29] <PetefromTn_> how can you view a freakin' INI file in wordpad without it running on like a bitch.
[18:06:38] * furrywolf wonders what "running on like a bitch" is
[18:06:53] <witnit_> something like "throw like a girl" i bet
[18:06:57] <witnit_> =D
[18:07:08] <PetefromTn_> http://pastebin.com/rsAMMJiC
[18:07:13] <Jymmm> witnit_++
[18:07:18] <PCW> a gain of 6 means that a ~1.6mm position error results in a full scale velocity command
[18:07:45] <PCW> (with analog out scaling of 10)
[18:07:55] <PetefromTn_> thats my old .ini file
[18:08:07] <PetefromTn_> it appears the encoder scaling is the same for all axes...
[18:09:17] <georgenz> Thought so
[18:09:42] <georgenz> So do the motors always make that faint noise when stationary??
[18:10:17] <PetefromTn_> yeah they kind of make a little noise sort of a light dithering especially the Z axis..
[18:10:54] <georgenz> Or does that noise mean they r not quite rite?
[18:13:07] <georgenz> Excellent, thanks for the help everyone I'm gonna wire up the other motors now.
[18:13:53] <tjb1> Anyone here good with Marlin?
[18:14:17] <PetefromTn_> sure man good luck
[18:14:29] <PCW> unless you have very high res encoders you will always get noticeable dithering in some circumstances
[18:16:06] <Nick001-shop> How many line encoder are you calling high res encoders?
[18:16:06] <witnit_> petefromtn_ do you mean this? http://malektips.com/windows-8-wordpad-remove-space-paragraph.html#.VNQClmOaRzA
[18:17:47] <PetefromTn_> I don't think so witnit. basically when I dump an INI or HAL file into wordpad it just makes everything one big block of text and kind of ignores the spacing between the lines that puts it into a vertical column when viewed in linux
[18:17:53] * furrywolf has never used wordpad, but doesn't see how anything can fail at showing a simple text file
[18:18:03] <witnit_> wordwrap?
[18:18:11] <furrywolf> you mean proportional vs fixed width fonts?
[18:18:12] <witnit_> sounds like wordwrap to me
[18:18:19] <furrywolf> and 8-char tabs?
[18:18:21] <PetefromTn_> nope
[18:18:44] <PetefromTn_> tried it with it on and off and it is both wrong but different
[18:19:21] <PetefromTn_> without word wrap it makes the test again one big block but it runs way off to the right and makes the block less tall if that makes any sense..
[18:19:38] <furrywolf> oh! newline conversion.
[18:19:50] <andypugh> That is because Wordpad expect CR/LF and Linux unses CR only. (Or is it LF only?)
[18:20:02] <furrywolf> you're using a defective OS that requires a \r\n to end a line, while every other OS only uses a \n.
[18:20:28] <andypugh> Use notepad++, It’s a lot better than Notepad and understands all types of line endings.
[18:20:35] <PetefromTn_> is it free
[18:20:46] <andypugh> So is Notepad++
[18:20:56] <furrywolf> why are you trying to to use windows to edit linux files?
[18:21:11] <andypugh> Notepad++ also does syntax highlighting and side-by-side view.
[18:21:17] <PCW> Nick001-shop: say 64K count or above
[18:21:26] <PetefromTn_> why are you asking stupid questions LOL
[18:21:52] <PetefromTn_> thanks andy will try it here soon as I can DL it
[18:22:09] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: I am writing this as a troll question of the week:)
[18:22:43] <furrywolf> ... it was a serious question. why would you edit linux files from windows, rather than linux? heh
[18:23:13] <LeelooMinai> There's only 1001 valid scenarios for that:p
[18:23:29] <furrywolf> nothing a bit of partition editing can't fix. :P
[18:23:32] <Nick001-shop> <PCW> and that will give 512K lines per rev of encoder?
[18:24:02] <andypugh> furrywolf: I don’t have a Linux machine with a keyboard :-)
[18:24:14] <furrywolf> heh
[18:24:33] <furrywolf> my windows machines are single-task machines for non-WINEable software, and turned off unless that specific program is needed.
[18:24:35] <PCW> no 64k count and up (which would be a 16K line encoder if they made such a hing)
[18:25:22] <furrywolf> that's a lot of lines.
[18:25:33] <PCW> I have a 16M count/turn encoder on my desk ATM
[18:25:44] <furrywolf> that's a whole lot of lines.
[18:25:46] <witnit_> how much do those cost?
[18:26:01] <Nick001-shop> <PCW> guess I'll live with some jitter when at rest. - anything on that 5i24 ?
[18:26:21] <PCW> on Ebay if you are lucky ~150
[18:26:41] <LeelooMinai> Are those encoders talks here always in context of servos in machining?
[18:26:41] <furrywolf> I have one windows machine for running my sherline, as it's currently stuck with flashcut until I build a new stepper box and linuxcnc it, and another for alldata and ondemand.
[18:26:50] <witnit_> I thought i had problems with jitter at rest, turns out my encoder setscrew was loose and it was just over compensating and bouncing hahahahahahah
[18:27:39] <PCW> No we have been behind and I've been drafted into testing
[18:27:47] <furrywolf> I can't imagine actually, you know, USING windows.
[18:28:11] <PetefromTn_> andypugh Thanks man that notepad ++ is much better..
[18:28:17] <LeelooMinai> Depends for what. I cannot imagine using Linux for desktop for example:)
[18:28:19] <renesis> thats where all the function programs live
[18:28:25] <PCW> Ill check the 5i24 resolver code tomorrow, Friday is usually slow
[18:28:31] <renesis> not trying to run solidworks or EDA packages in the lunix
[18:28:33] <_methods> sublime is nice too
[18:28:35] <renesis> geda is so sad =(
[18:28:37] <witnit_> pcw hire more people
[18:28:52] <renesis> *functional
[18:28:56] <LeelooMinai> PetefromTn_: It's pretty decent for a general, programmer-like, editor
[18:29:14] <PetefromTn_> yeah beats the shite out of the old one... I like it so far..
[18:29:28] <LeelooMinai> What old one? :)
[18:29:34] <PetefromTn_> notepad
[18:29:39] <_methods> some really good plugins for notepad++ too
[18:29:45] <_methods> code highlighting and stuff
[18:29:56] <witnit_> notepad++ is gooooooood
[18:29:59] <PetefromTn_> I like how it puts the little colored bars at the tops of headings
[18:29:59] <renesis> ya
[18:29:59] <LeelooMinai> lol... If notepad was more basic it would disapper pretty much - it's close to unusable, always was.
[18:30:05] <Nick001-shop> <PCW> - I thought that was being tested. I'm asking because I need to get going on this second Hardinge. I've already ordered the 2 card driver for the steppers on the Bridgeport.
[18:30:06] <witnit_> gcode highlighting too right?
[18:30:24] <witnit_> ooh nick what hardinge you have?
[18:30:34] <PetefromTn_> Nick001-shop You got ANOTHER Hardinge man?> NICE...
[18:30:38] <furrywolf> notepad, at least last time I used it, was just a text box with open and save...
[18:30:40] <andypugh> renesis: I just checked, the Geda developer isn’t on here now, but he used to be :-)
[18:30:51] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Did not change much...
[18:30:55] <furrywolf> and I mean text box as in a standard text box widget, not a generic term.
[18:30:59] <Nick001-shop> CHNC with AB controls
[18:31:03] <renesis> andypugh: there was only one!?
[18:31:07] <witnit_> I want pictures nick you got?
[18:31:08] <renesis> because that would explain a lot
[18:31:10] <PetefromTn_> I have been running these parts today and so far the machine is running perfect as usual LOL
[18:31:15] <LeelooMinai> Notepad++ shares only name with it - it's not Microsoft's doing, just some independent freeware
[18:31:18] <renesis> and geda was such a loose collection of non integrated tools
[18:31:20] <andypugh> renesis: Dunno.
[18:32:31] <renesis> if i needed eda for free again id prob try kicad, seems to have come a long way since i tried it forever ago
[18:32:40] <Nick001-shop> I actually have 3 of them - all with dead AB controls. The first one I did has Pico cards in it and I want to try Mesa's stuff in the next one.
[18:33:12] <andypugh> renesis: I am liking DesignSpark (though windows only, I think)
[18:33:14] <renesis> and i dont think there is anything comparable to solidworks for linux
[18:33:15] <PetefromTn_> mesa rocks man..
[18:33:19] <LeelooMinai> Ok, so encoders - are they only use in machining with servos?
[18:33:25] <LeelooMinai> used*
[18:33:27] <PetefromTn_> no
[18:33:38] <LeelooMinai> What else?
[18:33:42] <PetefromTn_> encoders are used in spindle motors and whatnot too
[18:33:52] <PetefromTn_> basically anywhere you need to track speed or position
[18:33:54] <PetefromTn_> on a motor
[18:34:03] <LeelooMinai> But arent's spindle motors rotating according to AC frequency anyways?
[18:34:14] <renesis> you can put them on steppers for error detection, i dont think itll use them for feedback
[18:34:14] <Nick001-shop> I also have a Bridgeport series 1 that seems to have died. Can't get it out of Estop so it's time for that one also.
[18:34:14] <furrywolf> no
[18:34:32] <PetefromTn_> I understand that the Hardinge CNC lathes have some real funky motors on them with a special sort of resolver or something
[18:34:55] <furrywolf> induction motors slip and spin at less than the ac frequency, may be variable speed, and for operations such as threading, their exact position needs to be known.
[18:35:14] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, my AC spindle has two drilled dots on the side of the collet nut - I was wondering if they did it to balance it or maybe there's some attachment that could use them for counting rpm
[18:35:15] <PetefromTn_> and the pneumatics are quite elaborate as they control the drawbars as well as the toolchangers etc. etc.
[18:36:06] <Nick001-shop> the motors are ok and they do have resovers instesd of encoders. The mesa cards would be cost effective for the resolvers which are good.
[18:37:19] <LeelooMinai> Found a similar image. They look like this: http://i.imgur.com/gRkfq65.png
[18:37:35] <LeelooMinai> Any idea what's the purpose of those?
[18:37:38] <PetefromTn_> I am glad I got the lathe I have here but I seriously think I may have to have one of those CHNC's in the shop at some point LOL
[18:37:41] <Nick001-shop> Just want to get rid of the tachs as they are always needing to be cleaned and they are a PITA to get at.
[18:38:10] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is what I was thinking..
[18:38:16] <furrywolf> hrmm. I'm not sure why you'd try balancing the nut, which would be tightened in different positions, so... no idea.
[18:38:20] <PetefromTn_> the tacks are a bitch I hear.
[18:38:27] <andypugh> Nick001-shop: I like the 7i49. Lots of effective encoder counts.
[18:38:41] <furrywolf> unless the nut is really out of balance...
[18:38:50] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Chinese tend not to add things that are unnecessary, so I guess they are for... something...
[18:38:55] <Nick001-shop> The one I have converted will split a tenth like they originally did
[18:39:01] <andypugh> furrywolf: ER nuts are inherently out of balance
[18:39:08] <renesis> leeloominai: reused scrap!
[18:39:38] <PetefromTn_> that's so kickass man..
[18:39:41] <andypugh> There is an eccentric collar in an ER nut to extract the collet. So they don’t balance
[18:39:50] <furrywolf> ah
[18:39:58] <furrywolf> so, in that case, they're probably for balance. :P
[18:40:00] <LeelooMinai> I had strange idea that maybe one can use IR emitter/receiver put on those dots to count revolution, but it's a bit far fetched:)
[18:40:01] <mozmck> I've used kicad quite a bit, and it has improved a lot over the last few years.
[18:40:24] <andypugh> That’s the first one I have seen with holes to compensate, but it makes perfect sense. A sign of unusually hivgh quality. :-)
[18:40:29] <renesis> mozmck: yeah lots of people say so
[18:40:31] <PetefromTn_> MMmmmmm Ravioli's...
[18:40:36] <renesis> when i tried it most of the docs were in french
[18:40:39] <mozmck> They plan another stable release before long now - after deciding people didn't need one a while back :)
[18:40:56] <Nick001-shop> andyugh - I want to keep the resolvers so I also need a 7i49HV to drive them
[18:40:59] <LeelooMinai> I recommend DipTrace over KiCAD, as always:)
[18:41:09] <renesis> meh @ dicktrace
[18:41:31] <renesis> i did some layouts for someone in it, and the amount of frustration was mind blowing
[18:41:41] <LeelooMinai> KiCAD is too much like any other Linux GUI application - a bit of usability abomination
[18:41:41] <renesis> like, it would constantly reposition my traces
[18:42:11] <renesis> id spend 3 minutes dropping a trace over and over trying to figure out how to get it to let me keep the one i laid down previously
[18:42:27] <renesis> from what ive heard they added some sort of ctrl function to disable that
[18:42:28] <LeelooMinai> renesis: Not sure what you were doing there, but DipTrace is probably one of the most user-friendly EDAs ther
[18:42:30] <PetefromTn_> that shit sounds painful
[18:42:34] <mozmck> heh, I've used linux for my desktop for years, and windows plenty as well. usability is nothing more than whatever you are used to.
[18:42:39] <renesis> leeloominai: right, it was thinking to hard for me
[18:43:03] <renesis> i just wanted it to do what i said not try to optomize position based on some random fuckin algorithm
[18:43:38] <LeelooMinai> What were you autorouting or something? :) No one does that...
[18:43:51] <renesis> it wasnt horrible, i finished the projects quick enough to equate to like $40-50/hr, but it pissed me off compared to eagle
[18:43:57] <renesis> no normal routing
[18:44:05] <renesis> eagle felt like EDA for kids
[18:44:14] <LeelooMinai> https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5582/14248405503_a47ed6bb0f.jpg :)
[18:44:18] <renesis> which is a lot like multisim/ultiboard
[18:44:21] <furrywolf> I've never used an eda program I liked.
[18:44:34] <renesis> but electronics workbench just handled ease of use better
[18:44:40] <renesis> i like eagle
[18:44:46] <LeelooMinai> I tried all of them. Liked DipTrace the most. Use pirated Altium:)
[18:44:47] <renesis> less since they made the UI more intuitive
[18:44:56] <andypugh> As I said, designspark is pretty much OK. It’s free from RS.
[18:45:00] <renesis> the UI was a bit crackish to learn, but its console cad
[18:45:09] <renesis> incredibly fast once you have the control down
[18:45:42] <renesis> and you can do damn near anything, i think the only issue was creative hacks for arbitrily shaped smd pads
[18:45:44] <LeelooMinai> Console CAD...
[18:45:52] <renesis> you had to fake it and ignore some of the DRC errorsa
[18:45:59] * LeelooMinai tries to imagine routing traces with commands
[18:46:14] <renesis> ive done it a ton
[18:46:15] <LeelooMinai> "must be some Linux thing"
[18:46:19] <andypugh> If anyone is interested: http://www.rs-online.com/designspark/electronics/eng/page/designspark-pcb-home-page
[18:46:20] <renesis> also component placement
[18:46:26] <mozmck> I used kicad because the free version of eagle would not let me make the first project I needed to make (too large a board), beside the fact that I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
[18:46:29] <renesis> leeloominai: multiplatform
[18:46:29] <andypugh> But as I said, Windows only.
[18:46:41] <renesis> mozmck: yeah thats an issue
[18:46:47] <renesis> but eagle pricing is very, very fair
[18:46:47] * furrywolf isn't interested in more windows software
[18:46:53] <andypugh> (Suits me as I get most of my components from RS too)
[18:46:53] <LeelooMinai> renesis: Ever try to become a pianist? :)
[18:46:55] <renesis> it runs in linux native?
[18:46:59] <furrywolf> in fact, I'm quite intent on getting rid of the two windows boxes I'm stuck with.
[18:47:01] <renesis> also macs
[18:47:16] <renesis> so im not sure what youre referring to
[18:47:21] <Connor> RadioShack Declares bankruptcy, Sells 2400 stores to Sprint, remaining to be closed.
[18:47:31] <renesis> closed is official now?
[18:47:31] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: You will be left with a monitor and terminal windows:)
[18:47:42] <furrywolf> "World’s first truly FREE and unrestricted electronics design software." ... lol
[18:47:45] <andypugh> Connor: Radio Spares, Not Radio Shack
[18:47:50] <renesis> the WSJ article like an hour ago didnt mention what they would do with the remaining stores
[18:48:22] <andypugh> Connor: They trade as “Allied” in the US I think.
[18:48:29] <furrywolf> it's not the first free-as-in-beer program, and it's not free-as-in-speech. so... that's total bullshit.
[18:48:35] <renesis> leeloominai: no i just like holding down the synth keys and playing with the knobs!
[18:48:51] <renesis> eagle? or kicad?
[18:49:08] <renesis> eagle isnt free, ir just runs on linux and macs and is very capable, very fairly priced
[18:49:09] <andypugh> Eagle is restricted in the free version.
[18:49:11] <furrywolf> the one andy pasted
[18:49:18] <furrywolf> that's a quote from their website.
[18:49:22] <Connor> Well... I buy stuff from them around 6 or more times a year... kinda sucks.. we have no Frys or anything near by..
[18:49:27] <renesis> oh, yeah never used it
[18:49:44] <renesis> i would go there when i needed RCA to BNC adapters in less than an hour
[18:49:49] <renesis> maybe every couple years
[18:49:59] <renesis> i was prob one of the more consistent customers, haha
[18:50:14] <Connor> The 4 pin CB connectors... relays, project boxes.. PCB Proto boards..
[18:50:18] <andypugh> You are talking about RadioShack now?
[18:50:23] <renesis> ya
[18:50:33] <andypugh> RS is not at all the same thing.
[18:50:36] <renesis> connor: at like 500% markup =\
[18:50:46] <renesis> no radioshack just declared bankruptcy
[18:50:48] <Connor> yea, But, I'm impatient.
[18:50:48] <renesis> why its a topic
[18:51:00] <renesis> right, thats when i would use radioshack
[18:51:07] <renesis> when i wouldnt wait for digikey or mouser
[18:51:16] <Connor> andypugh: RadioShack Declares bankruptcy, Sells 2400 stores to Sprint, remaining to be closed.
[18:51:23] <furrywolf> meh, radio shack is dead? while I've never loved them, that's still sad.
[18:51:24] <PetefromTn_> thats how I feel about fastenal..
[18:51:25] <renesis> like, im at work and i want to connect the DUT to the test gear without making a stupid cable
[18:51:25] <andypugh> RS is a huge electronics and industrial catalogue, I think they sell a slightly wider range than Farnell
[18:51:38] <renesis> furrywolf: they had it coming, honestly
[18:51:45] <furrywolf> fastenal pisses me off. every time I go in there, I leave empty handed, and annoyed.
[18:51:48] <renesis> theyve spent the last 20 years living on 100 years of momentum
[18:52:09] <PetefromTn_> I was in there today buying fasterners..
[18:52:13] <furrywolf> despite their name, they have LESS selection that a generic hardware store, and if you try ordering anything, their prices and ordering fees are fucking stupid.
[18:52:19] <furrywolf> s/that a/than a
[18:52:21] <Connor> They could have made a massive turn around in the past 5 years with the Maker Movement...
[18:52:33] <andypugh> I guess they were killed by teh interweb, because I get the impression that electronics hobby-ism is on the way up.
[18:52:34] <renesis> theyre managed by old people, is my guess
[18:52:48] <PetefromTn_> maybe in your store but the one near me is pretty nice and well stocked with hardware
[18:52:54] <Connor> if they had better positioned themselves and priced stuff more competitively.. and stocked up on more useful stuff..
[18:53:04] <furrywolf> connor: radio shack was just now getting into the maker stuff... one of the local stores was installing a public-use 3D printer, an electronics workbench with power supplies, breadboards, bins of parts, etc,...
[18:53:15] <renesis> instead of cell phones and cheap a/v accessories...
[18:53:16] <Connor> I know.
[18:53:21] <Connor> err. furrywolf I know.
[18:53:24] <renesis> they tried to get into 3d printing but their prices are dumb
[18:53:28] <XXCoder> just read news that they may close half and sell rest to some company?
[18:53:30] <Tom_itx> the one around here turned into mostly a phone and toy store
[18:53:32] <renesis> you want a tip for an extruder? $40
[18:53:35] <Rab> Connor, surely you jest. They tried that, they've been selling Arduinos and Parallax stuff for a while. Hobby electronics isn't going to sustain 2,400 stores.
[18:53:36] <renesis> for just the screw in tip
[18:54:03] <renesis> if they had an extruder assembly, which i would consider buying, they would prob charge $200
[18:54:08] <furrywolf> sprint is probably going to ditch the electronics entirely and just turn them into cell phone stores...
[18:54:11] <PetefromTn_> we had one in the Mall here and it was kinda like that tom
[18:54:12] <Connor> Rab: I don't think they tried hard enough. Sure, they carried some of that stuff.. but not enough..
[18:54:18] <renesis> furrywolf: i believe thats the plan
[18:54:33] <renesis> i dont think they are making any attempt to salvage the business
[18:54:42] <furrywolf> this means that a large portion of the population will no longer have any local option to buy any electronics components.
[18:54:55] <Rab> Connor, if they had, you'd be able to buy it on clearance soon. ;)
[18:54:57] <renesis> just more accessory and cell plan shops, i think the biggest gain for them is their name on more minimall signs
[18:55:17] <Connor> Rab: I'll be able to buy some stuff at clearance.
[18:55:24] <renesis> rab: i wonder, or if they just sell it all bulk to surplus or who knows
[18:55:38] <XXCoder> radiohack brand phones :P
[18:55:42] <Connor> Probably not worth shipping some of it back.
[18:55:47] <Rab> Probably some deals to be had.
[18:55:48] <renesis> i dont even think they had a brand?
[18:55:56] <Rab> Archer, Realistic
[18:55:59] <PetefromTn_> hard to compete with online electronics suppliers no matter what you do....
[18:56:01] <Connor> I have a nice digital Solder Iron that's branded Radioshack
[18:56:02] <renesis> they would just sell othger companies plans, i cant imagine they made a ton of money on sales
[18:56:29] <renesis> rab: they sold cell phones under those names?
[18:56:40] <Rab> renesis, not AFAIK.
[18:56:43] <Connor> PetefromTn_: My problem with online is that it requires planning... When you in the middle of a project and you forget or Run out of Crimps, or need a project box.. you have to wait 3 days ?
[18:56:58] <PetefromTn_> yup
[18:57:05] <tjtr33> the asian electronics stores are fulla hackers. they got pcbs for all hi-d smts plus chips programmers scopes probes. and if theres 1 store, the whole block is those stores. asia will have the inventors and we wont.
[18:57:06] <PetefromTn_> but it is what it is..
[18:57:07] <renesis> okay ya, i just knew those as their a/v brands
[18:57:23] <renesis> tjtr33: truth
[18:57:25] <PetefromTn_> I can count on two hands the number of times I ran to that store for stuff tho over the years..
[18:57:42] <renesis> my friend said when he lived in hong kong, when the schools let out, the electronics shops would be flooded with kids
[18:57:45] <PetefromTn_> often they did not have what I needed anyway
[18:57:47] <renesis> i bet thats never been the case here
[18:57:50] <furrywolf> three days only if you pay for express shipping... otherwise wait a week! or three if you get economy shipping.
[18:58:09] <furrywolf> smartpost 7-21 days, ups ground 6-8 days,...
[18:58:19] <Connor> I uses USPS when ordering most of my stuff.. it's pretty quick.. 3 days
[18:58:25] <PetefromTn_> you must live in alaska or something LOL
[18:58:26] <Connor> smartpost BLOWS CHUNKS
[18:58:35] <furrywolf> I use usps whenever I can, but some places insist on using UPS.
[18:58:38] <renesis> petefromtn_: rural n cali is not that bad, but its close
[18:58:45] <PetefromTn_> LOL
[18:58:50] <furrywolf> UPS is so bad I actively avoid shopping at any place that only ships UPS unless I can't find another option.
[18:58:53] <PetefromTn_> I get most stuff within a week easy
[18:58:57] <Connor> I like McMaster, I can have stuff here next day.
[18:59:00] <renesis> USPS was sometimes overnight in los angeles
[18:59:06] <PetefromTn_> yeah mcmaster kicks ass...
[18:59:22] <furrywolf> mcmaster is too expensive to shop at. I've never ordered from them to see what their shipping time is.
[18:59:23] <renesis> connor: ya! they would deliver to me in a van same day, dude with a clipboard
[18:59:27] <Rab> I'm 200 miles from Allied and Mouser, parts come next day with ground shipping. ^_^
[18:59:28] <renesis> was like, wow really?
[18:59:38] <Connor> You live in Atlanta ?
[18:59:48] <renesis> me?
[18:59:51] <Connor> yea.
[18:59:55] <PetefromTn_> you get what you pay for...
[18:59:57] <renesis> no i lived in los angeles
[19:00:00] <Connor> Oh.
[19:00:09] <furrywolf> I'm 200 miles from the same thing I'm 2 miles from... lots of trees.
[19:00:12] <renesis> sometimes they would need to ship out of their other warehouse
[19:00:22] <renesis> but like 90% of the stuff came local, day to deliver tops
[19:00:26] <Rab> McMaster has regional warehouses. There's a big one in GA, and another one northeast...not sure where else.
[19:00:28] <renesis> cheapest ship option
[19:00:28] <tjtr33> mcmaster is next day on front porch in chicago
[19:00:37] <renesis> rab: def one in los angeles
[19:00:39] <Rab> Must be west coast too.
[19:00:41] <renesis> big one
[19:00:49] <Connor> I like getting stuff from New Egg.. Memphis and NJ are close..
[19:00:56] <renesis> almost none of my stuff is split into other shipments
[19:01:08] <renesis> like, i order a tiny loctite tube, and that shit will come out of GA
[19:01:13] <renesis> rest of the order, same day
[19:01:37] <furrywolf> USPS Priority is here in 3 days... ups ground is always a week, and smartpost always two or more.
[19:01:44] <furrywolf> smartpost is THE FUCKING WORST mail system ever.
[19:01:51] <Rab> The GA warehouse doesn't seem to stock a lot of raw materials, those tend to come elsewhere if more than qty 1 or so.
[19:01:54] <renesis> i dont even know what smartpost is
[19:02:03] <furrywolf> I think they're slower than the 1800s horseback mailmen...
[19:02:06] <Connor> Smartpost is Fed Ex crap.. UPS has something like it too that's a tad better.
[19:02:22] <furrywolf> UPS Mail Innovations I've only seen once, and it was just as bad as smartpost.
[19:02:26] <Connor> renesis: They FED EX the package to the local USPS and let USPS do last mile delivery.
[19:02:26] <renesis> i dont like how ups and fedex use usps for last mile now
[19:02:29] <Rab> Haha, it's FedEx's deal with USPS to race to the bottom.
[19:02:31] <renesis> they will dick you areound on tracking
[19:02:32] <andypugh> Super-wasteful, look at the pile of swarf, but I got the job done at last. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fvoINILA3ftJANrzevmNI9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[19:02:37] <renesis> neither side takes responsibility
[19:02:38] <furrywolf> UPS took, if I remember right, a week and a half to go 500 miles.
[19:02:50] <CaptHindsight> heh gmail tosses anyone sending from yahoo mail into the spam folder
[19:03:03] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Yes, that’s Yahoos fault.
[19:03:04] <Connor> renesis: Yea.. Last Mile Fed Ex via USPS is SmartPost
[19:03:07] <Rab> Amazon uses Smartpost and Mail Innovations for their free shipping, it stinks.
[19:03:13] <renesis> ups does it too
[19:03:21] <PetefromTn_> nice andy
[19:03:25] <renesis> rab: ive gotten shit from amazon on sunday
[19:03:26] <CaptHindsight> yeah the two worst mailing co's
[19:03:30] <renesis> its like, cmon guys, rest
[19:03:33] <Connor> renesis: Yes, but it's called something else, and is a tad faster..
[19:03:34] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: It’s only messages that have been munged by a mailing list, which breaks some stupid security tag that Yahoo have
[19:03:35] <PetefromTn_> whaddahell is it?
[19:03:39] <tjtr33> pretty andy
[19:03:46] <Rab> renesis, same, USPS as carrier. I think they're really hungry.
[19:03:50] <furrywolf> much of smartpost isn't fedex. they sub all the transport out to other companies on an available-space basis, so they can make sure their trucks are full. if no partially full trucks are available, it can sit around indefinitely.
[19:03:55] <renesis> rab: its kind of scary
[19:04:10] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: I was wondering why only some people on the mailing list were always getting dropped
[19:04:14] <renesis> they went from, were gonna stop on saturdays, to fuckit well do sundays
[19:04:22] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Details here: http://thehackernews.com/2014/04/yahoos-new-dmarc-policy-destroys-every.html
[19:04:35] <andypugh> Gmail are doing exactly what Yahoo say they should...
[19:04:42] <furrywolf> it works for other transport companies, because they can put the spare space on their trucks to use, albeit at a piss-poor rate. it works for fedex, because they can get away with barely paying, but still get stuff moved around. it works for companies, because they can advertise "standard shipping" without telling you what it is, and fuck you over.
[19:05:09] <renesis> i dont feel fucked over furrywolf
[19:05:14] <renesis> i got packages on sunday
[19:05:21] <renesis> in two days, for cheapest shipping
[19:05:22] <Connor> renesis: Via Smartpost ?
[19:05:34] <renesis> i dont remember if it was initially ups or fedex
[19:05:43] <furrywolf> I feel fucked over when a place tells me "standard shipping", and it takes THREE FUCKING WEEKS to get here, care of fedex, when I could have ordered it straight from china for half the cost and half the time to get it.
[19:05:50] <Connor> Oh and FedEx home delivery sucks too.
[19:05:57] <furrywolf> smartpost isn't standard shipping. it's substandard shipping.
[19:06:00] <renesis> standard shipping means roll dice
[19:06:08] <CaptHindsight> Fedex for me is usually bad
[19:06:22] <renesis> if it doesnt say a timeline, i wouldnt expect it to hold to any
[19:06:26] <PetefromTn_> the lady across the street from me is a fedex driver...she's realy nice and hand delivers everything to me LOL
[19:06:36] <renesis> haha cool
[19:06:36] <Connor> PetefromTn_: ROFL
[19:06:47] <PetefromTn_> I'm serious!
[19:06:56] <Connor> Okay, so from RadioShack closing, to Shipping companies..
[19:07:02] <Connor> how about packages via Drones! :)
[19:07:18] <furrywolf> in fact, someone on ebay is about to get negative feedback for smartpost. I bought a listing where the shipping information said usps first class. they shipped it smartpost instead. so far it's taken a week to go from IL to TX.
[19:07:25] <furrywolf> lying about shipping method -> negative feedback.
[19:07:28] <zeeshan|2> what kind of carbide
[19:07:30] <CaptHindsight> fedex from China is the worst, customs will want some simple 1 page form and Fedex will take 3 days or 1 hour on the phone to tell me about it
[19:07:31] <zeeshan|2> er
[19:07:38] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: FIX FOR ME!!
[19:07:47] <zeeshan|2> rab connor fix for me!!
[19:07:56] <Connor> zeeshan|2: Fix what ?
[19:08:02] <PetefromTn_> dafuq?
[19:08:05] <zeeshan|2> explain why drive blow up
[19:08:09] <CaptHindsight> his broken shite
[19:08:14] <Connor> AMC not said anything yet ?
[19:08:19] <Rab> zeeshan|2, third one died?
[19:08:20] <zeeshan|2> she wanted more info
[19:08:23] <tjtr33> drone delivery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHwXf8JUOw
[19:08:26] <zeeshan|2> rab haven't plugged it in
[19:08:31] <zeeshan|2> w/ z motor stuff
[19:08:38] <zeeshan|2> Please answer the additional questions I asked you below. I think there is a potential grounding issue. Is this a system that was running for some time before it failed or is this a completely new application?
[19:08:47] <Connor> zeeshan|2: What more info she want ?
[19:08:54] <zeeshan|2> serial #
[19:08:57] <zeeshan|2> wiring diagrams
[19:09:15] <Connor> Well Good! They're working with you!
[19:09:17] <zeeshan|2> i gave her additional info too
[19:09:20] <zeeshan|2> servo motor winding resistance -- 1.8 ohm (in spec) servo motor winding to servo motor case resistance -- 8.8 Mohm servo motor case to earth resistance - 0.2 ohm servo motor brake coil to servo motor case resistance -- infinite servo motor tachometer winding to servo motor case resistance -- infinite
[19:09:20] <CaptHindsight> Question #4 Do you like to watch Gladiator films?
[19:09:21] <Rab> Those seem like reasonable things to request.
[19:09:45] <PetefromTn_> hehehehe
[19:09:45] <zeeshan|2> i asked her what the component under the 4700 mH inductor is too
[19:09:55] <zeeshan|2> i know mr furry requested that info
[19:09:56] <zeeshan|2> :P
[19:10:16] <furrywolf> ask them for a schematic. :P
[19:10:19] <zeeshan|2> haha
[19:10:23] <zeeshan|2> yea i doubt they'll give that!
[19:10:28] <zeeshan|2> im gonna double check the motor again
[19:10:31] <zeeshan|2> with 2 diff multimeters
[19:10:39] <furrywolf> sure they will! they'll just redact all the symbols and part numbers. :P
[19:10:44] <furrywolf> just like the board. heh.
[19:11:07] <zeeshan|2> a diode will be shown as a polygon
[19:11:19] <zeeshan|2> a resistor will have a capacitance value
[19:11:23] <CaptHindsight> schematic without part numbers or part values
[19:11:39] <zeeshan|2> by grounding issue
[19:11:47] <furrywolf> capt: have you seen the board? they sanded the top off EVERY non-trivial part.
[19:11:48] <zeeshan|2> she means the drive ground to earth?
[19:11:51] <furrywolf> even things like transistors
[19:11:57] <CaptHindsight> yeah, saw the parts
[19:12:17] <CaptHindsight> yeah top secret
[19:12:43] <CaptHindsight> one step from placing parts that do nothing just to throw you off
[19:12:53] <zeeshan|2> lol
[19:13:38] <furrywolf> I have some stepper drives that are potted with aluminum oxide filled epoxy, to resist grinding and dissolving.
[19:13:40] <XXCoder> wonder if can find semeric online based on model #
[19:13:42] <Connor> Just be glade they didn't use negative voltage mil-spec stuff..
[19:13:47] <andypugh> zeeshan|2: http://xkcd.com/730/ ?
[19:13:49] <XXCoder> work by some people annoyed by sanded off chips
[19:14:15] <CaptHindsight> ecl soviet surplus
[19:14:29] <zeeshan|2> rofl AndChat|31961
[19:14:30] <zeeshan|2> andypugh:
[19:15:19] <andypugh> Talking about parts that do nothing… I read about someone who used a genetic algorithm to produce an FPGA layout. He ended up with something really good, but with a bunch of random unconnected stuff too, so he removed all that. And it stopped working..
[19:15:33] <furrywolf> lol
[19:15:48] <furrywolf> I've played with generic algorithms like that, and yes, most of it ends up being dead.
[19:15:54] <zeeshan|2> https://www.dropbox.com/s/abmmue9j5bwostk/Master%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf?dl=0
[19:15:57] <zeeshan|2> Q for you guys
[19:16:00] <Connor> andypugh: So, Um, it did something ?
[19:16:02] <zeeshan|2> looking at my load diagram
[19:16:26] <zeeshan|2> when i power off spindle vfd, hyd pump coolant pump , x drive y drive
[19:16:30] <zeeshan|2> (a c are not powered)
[19:16:31] <andypugh> Connor: Yeah, probably some wierd coupling on the board or in the chip. Probably unreliable as hell too.
[19:16:38] <zeeshan|2> theres a load misbalance of like 20 A
[19:16:42] <zeeshan|2> could this cause the drive to blow up
[19:16:55] <zeeshan|2> because for a second or so
[19:16:55] <Rab> zeeshan|2, between L1 and L2?
[19:17:00] <zeeshan|2> the neutral goes to 20A.
[19:17:05] <zeeshan|2> rab yes
[19:17:12] <Rab> I doubt it, but I dunno.
[19:17:22] <furrywolf> only if you have a bad neutral. which I asked you several times to make sure was good. :P
[19:17:26] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan|2: I can hardly read the text, can you please try a different shade of white text on a white background? :p
[19:17:36] <zeeshan|2> CaptHindsight: have you seen the zoom button on the top?
[19:17:37] <zeeshan|2> :)
[19:17:45] <zeeshan|2> and the background option in adobe? :)
[19:17:48] * zeeshan|2 hides
[19:17:51] <Tom_itx> does steplen and stepspace set the frequency for stepgen?
[19:18:07] <zeeshan|2> i forgot
[19:18:10] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Only indirectly
[19:18:11] <zeeshan|2> the people in here are 80 years old!
[19:18:12] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[19:18:14] <zeeshan|2> jk
[19:18:29] * zeeshan|2 needs to make lame jokes to feel better about the problem i have
[19:18:33] <Rab> You'll get there soon enough.
[19:18:34] <CaptHindsight> <--- uses Okular
[19:18:37] <Tom_itx> andypugh, what sets the frequency then?
[19:18:44] <furrywolf> <-- uses xpdf
[19:18:51] <andypugh> Tom_itx: If you want a fixed frequency use a velocity-mode stepgen and a velocity input pin appears
[19:18:56] <zeeshan|2> you different wannabe ppl!
[19:19:02] <Tom_itx> i have it set for velocity mode
[19:19:08] <Tom_itx> i'm not getting any output yet
[19:19:15] <andypugh> Then there should be a velocity pin
[19:19:16] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: what do i need to check for neutral
[19:19:34] <furrywolf> a 'scope. :P
[19:19:39] <furrywolf> or a meter with a fast min/max mode.
[19:19:44] <zeeshan|2> it didnt blow up the bulb i put in place
[19:19:47] <zeeshan|2> for l2
[19:19:51] <furrywolf> then it's probably fine.
[19:19:54] <CaptHindsight> which drive in the diagram blowded up?
[19:19:56] <zeeshan|2> Z
[19:20:02] <zeeshan|2> A and C are unconnected
[19:20:13] <furrywolf> because any device that runs off mains power and can't handle a surge too small to blow a lightbulb shouldn't be sold. heh.
[19:20:25] <atom1> net spindle-freq <= scale.2.out => hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.stepgen.03.velocity-cmd
[19:20:35] <furrywolf> did the light bulb ever flash brightly?
[19:20:39] <zeeshan|2> no
[19:20:55] <furrywolf> then it's probably not a mains power surge.
[19:20:55] <Tom_itx> i'm not exactly what the scale should be on this though
[19:21:09] <furrywolf> also, the way it's built, I'd expect a mains surge to blow the onboard shunt regulator first...
[19:21:14] <CaptHindsight> oh you wired all the drives up the same way and only Z blew up?
[19:21:26] <zeeshan|2> capt yea only exception is l2 for z
[19:21:30] <furrywolf> capt: it blew, then its replacement blew.
[19:21:32] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: i read the device spec sheet
[19:21:40] <furrywolf> l2, and being connected to the z motor.
[19:21:42] <Rab> zeeshan|2, was power applied to the A and C drives when Z blew?
[19:21:44] <zeeshan|2> it has overcurrent, shortcircuit protection for servo
[19:21:51] <zeeshan|2> undervoltage and overvoltage protection for mains
[19:21:59] <zeeshan|2> and also overvoltage protection for back feeding from motor
[19:22:11] <zeeshan|2> rab a and c are always unconnected
[19:22:14] <zeeshan|2> fuse removed
[19:22:43] <PCW> Tom_itx_ if you want 25KHz for example set the scale to 25000 and then a velocity of 1 will get you 25 KHz
[19:22:48] <zeeshan|2> i dunno how to check for grounding
[19:22:57] <zeeshan|2> other than measure resistance between drive chassis to earth bar
[19:23:02] <zeeshan|2> or motor case to earth bar
[19:23:10] <atom1> PCW, i'm starting from the example they had for this board
[19:23:25] <andypugh> Time to be gone.
[19:23:29] <zeeshan|2> nite AndroUser2
[19:23:31] <zeeshan|2> andy
[19:23:44] <atom1> PCW, http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
[19:23:44] <CaptHindsight> and you are really really sure that you had L1 IN to Line 2 and Neutral to Neutral?
[19:24:01] <atom1> they're using a parport though
[19:24:47] <PCW> yeah dont set steptime to 1 :-)
[19:25:06] <atom1> steplen?
[19:25:12] <PCW> yeah
[19:25:26] <atom1> that would be a very short pulse
[19:25:55] <CaptHindsight> what section of the drive blew up? I saw the pics but what area is that?
[19:26:09] <atom1> PCW, i wonder why they have stepspace set to 0 too
[19:26:10] <PCW> yep (probably rounded up by the driver to the resolution so 10 ns )
[19:26:42] <PCW> they are relying on thread/parallel port timings
[19:27:36] <atom1> i'll post what i have
[19:28:01] <PCW> so if its 25 KHz max maybe set steptime for 50% duty cycle at 25 KHz = 20000 ns
[19:29:33] <PCW> probably dont need the scaler component if the position scale is set right
[19:29:53] <atom1> for each steplen and stepspace?
[19:30:04] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan|2: any idea was area those parts that blew up are in? http://imagebin.ca/v/1qfI8FWlLp12
[19:30:47] <Rab> CaptHindsight, power supply filter capacitors for MOSFET drivers, among other things.
[19:31:40] <Rab> There's a switch-mode PS in the upper right, filter cap and pass transistor blew on at least one of the boards.
[19:31:55] <atom1> PCW, i'm not exactly sure what they're doing with the scale component there
[19:32:11] <PCW> bbl Dinner!
[19:32:29] <CaptHindsight> looks like overvoltage on those caps
[19:32:35] <furrywolf> I suspect everything on that power rail is blown.
[19:33:04] <CaptHindsight> did the drive ever work or did it die on first try?
[19:33:14] <furrywolf> it's not shown on that diagram.
[19:33:26] <furrywolf> capt: it worked until power off and back on. same with the second one.
[19:34:28] <CaptHindsight> isolation options and grounds are not connected
[19:34:40] <renesis> yo, anyone knows how to do win7 smash to border half maximize when you have double monitors?
[19:34:44] <furrywolf> argh! cnn has joined the list of idiotic websites that display a position:fixed bar over the top of articles that breaks scrolling.
[19:34:48] <renesis> i want to smash to the middle
[19:35:09] <renesis> right now i have to smash left and drag over
[19:35:16] <PetefromTn_> jeez man Andypugh did some amazing work on that neracar project... Man's got SKEELS...
[19:37:13] <CaptHindsight> radio shack is soon to be no more
[19:37:53] <CaptHindsight> alibaba should but them as retail locations for cheap electronics
[19:38:05] <furrywolf> lol
[19:38:11] <furrywolf> or ebay
[19:38:39] <CaptHindsight> just think if they sold stuff you wanted to buy
[19:38:41] <Rab> CaptHindsight, that's the best continuation plan I've heard so far.
[19:38:57] <CaptHindsight> unlocked phones, media players, tablets and popular parts
[19:39:43] <furrywolf> I've gotten pretty fed up with buying chinese stuff these days.
[19:39:52] <furrywolf> now it has to be really cheap and for something I don't care if it works.
[19:40:03] <CaptHindsight> cables, head phones, chargers, batteries at fair/low prices
[19:40:14] <XXCoder> furry or something you could rebuild?
[19:40:37] <XXCoder> think capt here was one who bought chinese router and rebuilt it to good one
[19:40:48] <furrywolf> cables? half the chinese cables I've bought don't work.
[19:41:01] <furrywolf> I got USB cables with no shield, audio cables that were dead shorts,...
[19:41:18] <zeeshan|2> sorry waas checking grounds
[19:41:28] <furrywolf> batteries, if they even work out of the box, tend to be substandard and low-capacity or quickly failing.
[19:41:40] <zeeshan|2> 0 ohms from motor chassis to earth bar
[19:41:49] <zeeshan|2> 0 ohms from drive case to ground
[19:41:54] <furrywolf> for example, a chinese laptop battery I got lasted about ten cycles, dropping from 7 hours to 30mins...
[19:42:08] <XXCoder> dang
[19:42:42] <furrywolf> bbl, time for work
[19:42:47] <CaptHindsight> yeah thats what Radiobaba could offer, a place with a reputation for low cost and good parts
[19:42:48] <zeeshan|2> work at 8 pm?
[19:42:49] <zeeshan|2> lol
[19:43:01] <furrywolf> 5:30pm
[19:43:02] <furrywolf> bbl
[19:43:08] <CaptHindsight> or AliShack?
[19:43:21] <XXCoder> lol
[19:43:31] <XXCoder> hey CaptHindsight was it you who rebuilt a chinese router cnc
[19:43:44] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: yes
[19:43:47] <witnit_> "I can't believe its not Radioshack"
[19:43:48] <XXCoder> coo
[19:43:52] <XXCoder> *cool
[19:44:13] <CaptHindsight> took if from crap to craptatsic
[19:44:29] <PetefromTn_> heh
[19:44:29] <XXCoder> lol
[19:44:31] <CaptHindsight> craptastic
[19:44:42] <renesis> capthindsight: +2 on ali express retail
[19:45:09] <PetefromTn_> some pro level turd polishing going on there hehe
[19:45:11] <renesis> i would even invest in that shit if i could afford it
[19:45:37] <CaptHindsight> a place to return items for warranty or just returns
[19:47:32] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: before and after
[19:48:28] <CaptHindsight> most if the fasteners had red oxide coatings and the Y and X had 1mm lash
[19:49:01] <PetefromTn_> 1MM !!!!
[19:49:15] <XXCoder> crazy
[19:49:32] <zeeshan|2> lol 1mm
[19:49:44] <CaptHindsight> yes, no nuts on the ball screw ends and the end play was >1mm
[19:50:31] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/1qfOShvdGarY
[19:51:07] <witnit> ;(
[19:51:09] <PetefromTn_> all that aluminum and not a nut in sight tsk tsk tsk....;)
[19:51:38] <witnit> are you insisting aluminum threads stretch out under pressures? :)
[19:52:44] <Rab> CaptHindsight, hahaha
[19:53:10] <PetefromTn_> well.......10 down.....40 more to go LOL
[19:53:15] <CaptHindsight> the coupler on the motor shaft end of the screws would act like a spring to keep the screw pressed towards the motor
[19:53:34] <CaptHindsight> that was their faith based ball screw ends fixity solution
[19:53:40] <PetefromTn_> no bearing on that side?
[19:54:29] <PetefromTn_> it's like a CNC router......kit....sorta.
[19:54:34] <CaptHindsight> bearings on both side but floating axially
[19:55:32] <PetefromTn_> nobody needs a Holley Check valve????? hehe
[19:55:49] <CaptHindsight> using Belleville Washers would have helped
[19:56:16] <CaptHindsight> or even lock washers to add pressure
[19:56:40] <PetefromTn_> no angulars then huh.
[19:56:49] <CaptHindsight> they didn't even try
[19:57:11] <PetefromTn_> how much was that thing?
[19:58:24] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/kl3040-cnc
[19:58:43] <CaptHindsight> was maybe $700 without the controller
[19:59:26] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router you really don't want to see any of these up close
[19:59:45] <CaptHindsight> ugly, painted with mops
[20:00:02] <CaptHindsight> over spray everywhere
[20:00:09] <CaptHindsight> rusty fasteners
[20:00:12] <PetefromTn_> typical chinese
[20:00:31] <CaptHindsight> nothing adjusted for 0 lash
[20:00:43] <new2cnc> Hi, can I do a precompile install of linuxcnc if I have a source compile linxcnc(run-in-place) already in my ubuntu system or would be wiser to remove the run-in-place first
[20:01:51] <CaptHindsight> new2cnc: you can choose between running a sim and real hardware
[20:02:53] <CaptHindsight> new2cnc: you mean installing...
[20:03:51] <CaptHindsight> did you use the package manager to install your version that you compiled?
[20:03:58] <tjtr33> new2cnc, i think the rip doesnt use any of the installed, thats why you have to source the environment to use the rip ( as in 'ignore the installed version ' )
[20:05:55] <XXCoder> http://www.sbnation.com/2014/11/26/7281129/radioshack-eulogy-stories
[20:05:58] <XXCoder> dang
[20:11:13] <CaptHindsight> just think is RadioBaba carried the top 250 products that sell on alibabab right now
[20:11:18] <CaptHindsight> is/if
[20:11:36] <XXCoder> s/if/of
[20:12:01] <XXCoder> unless you meant what if..
[20:12:11] <CaptHindsight> it would full of tablets phones cables etc
[20:12:33] <XXCoder> yeah all of em is full of unsalable stuff
[20:14:03] <XXCoder> heh that site has secton about cuecat. I own one and love it
[20:14:11] <XXCoder> makes scanning books in much easier
[20:14:12] <CaptHindsight> check out the electronics section at Costco or Sams Club
[20:14:24] <XXCoder> costco is yull of awesome
[20:14:32] <XXCoder> s/yull/full
[20:15:07] <CaptHindsight> Sprint was talking about buying some of the stores
[20:15:15] <XXCoder> they are
[20:15:21] <XXCoder> over 1,000 of em
[20:15:40] <CaptHindsight> too bad Sprint is so bad
[20:15:45] <XXCoder> radio hack will be 1/3 sprint stuff and they wont sell other service (like verizon) anymore
[20:15:56] <CaptHindsight> they took over Clear and Clearwire
[20:15:57] <XXCoder> depends on where, here sprint is pretty darn good
[21:02:21] <DGMurdockIII> where do you buy your cnc bdrill bits
[21:02:24] <DGMurdockIII> at
[21:03:51] <tiwake> MSC normally
[21:04:17] <DGMurdockIII> link
[21:06:46] <DGMurdockIII> http://www.mscdirect.com/?
[21:07:44] <tiwake> yeah, thats correct
[21:08:00] <tiwake> they might be USA only though... donno
[21:08:54] <DGMurdockIII> im in usa
[21:10:15] <unfy> msc is a good choice
[21:11:28] <witnit_> DGMurdockIII what size, type etc are you looking for exactly?
[21:11:51] <DGMurdockIII> just looking for a good place to buy bits
[21:12:00] <witnit_> what are you drilling?
[21:12:06] <witnit_> dont say holes
[21:12:07] <witnit_> hahahahaha
[21:12:13] <witnit_> materials
[21:12:26] <tiwake> enh
[21:12:39] <tiwake> most of the time you just want a cobalt screw machine drill
[21:13:01] <tiwake> parabolic in certain cases
[21:13:34] <tiwake> most of the time carbide drills chip too easily
[21:14:48] <witnit_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-POUND-MIXED-TOOLING-LOT-CARBIDE-MICRO-100-SGS-DENSCO-ALU-POWER-NACHI-/371247337340?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item567010cf7c
[21:14:55] <witnit_> industrial grade brands
[21:15:01] <witnit_> are best always
[21:15:10] <witnit_> so find what is best for you and go from there
[21:15:45] <witnit_> often you can get good carbide with industrial grade coatings in lots if you know which brands are worth it
[21:15:51] <tiwake> witnit_: nice find
[21:15:55] <DGMurdockIII> no wood metial
[21:16:03] <DGMurdockIII> plastic
[21:16:08] <witnit_> nachi is all searched for
[21:16:19] <tiwake> DGMurdockIII: drilling through wood and plastic?
[21:16:59] <DGMurdockIII> cutting drilling same think
[21:17:03] <witnit_> but if your machine or working holding is not rigid it will not matter the brand or grade carbide will break if improperly used
[21:17:40] <witnit_> work-holding*
[21:17:54] <LeelooMinai> True, always buy premium-grade tape
[21:18:31] <witnit_> a good tap is worth all your time and effort you have invested in the part you are tapping.....
[21:19:04] <tiwake> heh yeah
[21:19:14] <tiwake> using a $50 tap right now actually
[21:19:23] <LeelooMinai> I meant workholding tape:)
[21:19:48] <tiwake> 5/16-24 extra long tap
[21:19:52] <witnit_> I have a tapgrinder for reworking it :)
[21:21:09] <witnit_> tiwake what is your project?
[21:22:01] <tiwake> a startup company is having me make high end bow products
[21:22:27] <tiwake> he brought a couple more drawings over earlier today
[21:23:49] <tiwake> some sort of counterbalance weight system... I donno... I don't show bow, much less professionally or competitively
[21:24:13] <witnit_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walton-Tools-40090-9-Piece-Tap-Extension-Set-/291359087725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d65adc6d
[21:24:25] <witnit_> sometimes these work depending on shank
[21:24:42] <tiwake> no, the hole is too small
[21:24:48] <witnit_> I figured
[21:25:39] <tiwake> hehe
[21:25:43] <witnit_> I wonder if there is a company that makes indexable taps, that would have a whole throught them so you can hold them to any shank
[21:25:49] <witnit_> hole*
[21:26:06] <literally_h1tler> yes, they're used in screw machines and are called collapsing taps
[21:26:46] <witnit_> no not quite like that
[21:28:13] <witnit_> more like......http://www.ebay.com/itm/INDEXABLE-DRILL-1-2-DIA-8XD-COOLANT-THROUGH-KENNAMETAL-2-DRILL-TIPS-NEW-132-00-/251424742887?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3a8a151de7
[21:28:21] <witnit_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/INDEXABLE-DRILL-1-2-DIA-8XD-COOLANT-THROUGH-KENNAMETAL-2-DRILL-TIPS-NEW-132-00-/251424742887?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3a8a151de7
[21:28:49] <witnit_> but a tap instead
[21:32:11] <tiwake> ponies
[21:40:46] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1CMSV81_ws
[21:51:02] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/uXD5hKe.jpg parts are getting done with the vacuum setup!!
[21:51:15] <unfy> pete: !
[21:51:27] <PetefromTn_> yeah man
[21:52:03] <witnit> hey those turned out great :)
[21:52:07] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-M5S32oYg&feature=youtu.be Sorry for the dark cellphone video..
[21:52:27] <unfy> methods: i do feel a bit sorry for the round it's chewing up :D
[21:52:36] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: nice job
[21:52:38] <unfy> unless that's just dirt
[21:52:53] <_methods> hehe looks like quicksand
[21:53:17] <PetefromTn_> thanks witnit
[21:54:05] <zeeshan|2> glad it worked out
[21:54:08] <zeeshan|2> :)
[21:54:12] <Tom_itx> ok i need to figure out the scale for this pwm
[21:55:10] <PetefromTn_> I still have to be careful when I plunge thru for all the holes....it ALMOST feels like it is gonna go flying but so far it has stayed put.
[21:55:13] <Tom_itx> S281 = 1v ; S950 = 10v
[21:55:21] <Tom_itx> i need S5000 for the top end
[21:55:31] <Tom_itx> and 0 near the bottom
[21:55:54] <Tom_itx> it works fine until i invert the signal but if i don't the speed is reversed from what it should be
[21:59:56] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6YPJ0rnZPo&feature=youtu.be
[22:00:34] <unfy> Pete: nice, but learn to hold a camera steady :P
[22:00:40] <XXCoder> tripod
[22:00:44] <XXCoder> but yeah very nice
[22:00:47] <unfy> or that :)
[22:01:22] <pcw_home> is it PWM not a stepgen?
[22:01:40] <Tom_itx> i went back to pwmgen ... i wasn't getting anywhere with stepgen
[22:02:02] <Tom_itx> at least with pwmgen i get an output voltage
[22:02:35] <Tom_itx> from what i can tell the pulse width doesn't vary much for full swing
[22:02:36] <PetefromTn_> sorry man I am not a videographer heh
[22:03:02] <pcw_home> what is pwm scale now
[22:03:25] <Tom_itx> -5000
[22:03:38] <pcw_home> Minus?
[22:03:49] <Tom_itx> i was trying that to see if it would invert the signal
[22:04:08] <pcw_home> that only changes the diretion pin
[22:04:10] <Tom_itx> i had 5000 originally but the S word was backward
[22:04:29] <Tom_itx> so low rpm gave me 10v and high rpm gave me near 0
[22:04:50] <Tom_itx> i tried inverting the IO and that was a fail
[22:04:56] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: try this sequence 0,6,5,7,4,8,3,9,2,0 see if it accuracy stays?
[22:05:02] <XXCoder> er stays accurate
[22:05:25] <pcw_home> inverting the output bit should work, thats weird
[22:05:44] <Tom_itx> it didn't work
[22:05:58] <pcw_home> so its not really PWM
[22:06:06] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure what it is
[22:06:17] <Tom_itx> the output signal is pwm
[22:06:21] <PetefromTn_> I have no idea what you are talking about
[22:06:31] <Tom_itx> and it behaves like pwm but i'm questioning the dac input
[22:06:48] <pcw_home> Didn't someone else give up on that BOB?
[22:06:54] <Tom_itx> connor did
[22:06:57] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: it's just movement pattern, sometimes sequence works but different pattern exposes problem
[22:07:25] <Tom_itx> PCW, wanna swap 7i47 for a spindle out one?
[22:07:32] <Tom_itx> it's still in the bag :)
[22:07:45] <Tom_itx> i'm using the old one still
[22:08:09] <pcw_home> well since its sort of working, you might try setting scaling to 25000
[22:08:19] <Tom_itx> hmm
[22:08:20] <PetefromTn_> I guess man... it just shows the positional accuracy and repeatability as well as backlash accuracy it reverses several times dunno what moving to different positions would show that this video does not really.
[22:08:46] <XXCoder> what it baically does is start with short distances then increasing
[22:09:35] <new2cnc> CaptHindsight: Sorry I went out for lunch. nope I didn't use any package manager to install it. I am thinking of doing it now rather than using over the rip version cos I having a few problem with rip version
[22:10:17] <Tom_itx> PCW that's alot better
[22:10:28] <Tom_itx> i can invert the output now and get a decent signal
[22:10:40] <Tom_itx> it's not within the board specs yet but closer
[22:11:18] <Tom_itx> min pulse is 3µs
[22:11:38] <Tom_itx> i'm getting 6 at 4000 rpm
[22:11:59] <Tom_itx> and 1.6 at 1000 rpm
[22:12:15] <Tom_itx> 1.6v at 1000 rpm
[22:12:29] <Tom_itx> 8.27 at 4000
[22:12:50] <Tom_itx> 10v at 5000
[22:13:03] <Tom_itx> 8µs pulse at 10v
[22:13:12] <pcw_home> you can offset the PWM if you like or run the spindle command through lincurve and fix multitude of sins
[22:13:40] <Tom_itx> i considered running the ouput thru scale then out
[22:13:47] <Tom_itx> output*
[22:13:59] <pcw_home> I dont mind swapping a 7I47 (or I may have something in the junk box maybe a proto SPINX1)
[22:14:01] <Tom_itx> and scale it there
[22:14:19] <Tom_itx> i haven't even taken it out of the bag
[22:14:25] <Tom_itx> what io is the pwm on?
[22:14:36] <Tom_itx> i may have to swap stuff around
[22:14:43] <Tom_itx> i have this one on io 20 21
[22:15:06] <Tom_itx> i'll jack with this board a bit longer and see where i get
[22:15:30] <Tom_itx> i haven't hooked hardware to it yet, just looking at voltage and Logic signals
[22:16:17] <Tom_itx> i kinda hate to do that but it might be a last resort
[22:16:27] <Tom_itx> at least i know your stuff works :)
[22:16:53] <Tom_itx> that 25000 scaling helped quite a bit
[22:17:06] <pcw_home> well we guarantee 1% linearity and offset
[22:17:10] <XXCoder> perfect plan http://buttersafe.com/2010/05/27/spring-cleaning/
[22:17:40] <Tom_itx> i can't get below 1000 rpm before the pulses get too narrow for it
[22:17:46] <Tom_itx> and that's not good
[22:17:54] <pcw_home> spunde workable, spindle speed is seldom critical
[22:18:11] <Tom_itx> i can lower the frequency
[22:18:23] <Tom_itx> to get the bottom rpm lower i think
[22:18:30] <Tom_itx> it's at 25khz now
[22:18:45] <pcw_home> what does it really want?
[22:19:09] <Tom_itx> they say 25Khz with a min 3usec pulse
[22:19:28] <pcw_home> but they say its PWM
[22:19:32] <pcw_home> ?
[22:19:40] <Tom_itx> they don't say much
[22:19:44] <Tom_itx> yesh pwm
[22:19:48] <Tom_itx> yes*
[22:20:11] <Tom_itx> their hal example uses stepgen though
[22:20:17] <Tom_itx> thru the parport
[22:20:20] <pcw_home> weird
[22:20:25] <Tom_itx> very
[22:20:48] <Tom_itx> it should be able to be scaled
[22:20:58] <Tom_itx> i can get the 0-10v range
[22:21:04] <pcw_home> is it just a opto followed by filter
[22:21:08] <pcw_home> ?
[22:21:13] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:21:28] <Tom_itx> schmitt trigger buffer behind that
[22:21:32] <pcw_home> fast OPTO?
[22:21:44] <Tom_itx> i don't know what they put on it
[22:22:05] <pcw_home> try 5 KHz or so
[22:22:41] <Tom_itx> LTV847 maybe it it...
[22:22:45] <Tom_itx> liteon
[22:23:02] <pcw_home> thats not fast I dont think
[22:23:12] <Tom_itx> i'm not surprised
[22:24:34] <Tom_itx> does the S board take the same bit files?
[22:24:59] <pcw_home> no it needs the PWM gen on the 7I47S PWM pins
[22:25:07] <Tom_itx> well i can fix that
[22:25:18] <Tom_itx> i'm using pwmgen on 20 21 right now
[22:25:41] <furrywolf> meh. I must be the only person unhappy that radioshack is gone.
[22:27:16] <zeeshan|2> why furrywolf
[22:27:19] <zeeshan|2> digikey
[22:27:34] <XXCoder> im not happy but not sad either
[22:27:45] <zeeshan|2> to behonest with you
[22:27:49] <zeeshan|2> i was sad when they moved out of canda
[22:27:52] <zeeshan|2> *canada
[22:28:31] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, looks like it may be using IO 17 18 19 for the pwm
[22:29:29] <Tom_itx> i'll have to see if that leaves me enough io
[22:29:36] <zeeshan|2> anyone here do investigative electronics? :-)
[22:29:42] <zeeshan|2> fix my problem!!
[22:29:43] <Tom_itx> heh
[22:30:12] <zeeshan|2> how can you easily find a short
[22:30:24] <zeeshan|2> i know there is one because at the power entry side i get 0 ohms
[22:30:40] <zeeshan|2> i was told a thermal imaging camera
[22:30:46] <zeeshan|2> + constant current supply can help
[22:31:00] <zeeshan|2> but i guess even if i find the short, i dont know what caused it :/
[22:31:13] <mozmck> pcw_home: using the 7i92 files you sent - with modifications, I can now get motion - in one direction only :)
[22:32:07] <mozmck> why would it do that?
[22:32:20] * LeelooMinai emerges after some work on the table
[22:32:41] <zeeshan|2> LeelooMinai: figure out failure!
[22:32:53] <LeelooMinai> It's almost ready, tomorrow I will attach extrusions and I will have a table... lol
[22:33:04] <skunksleep> direction pin not correct?
[22:33:14] <LeelooMinai> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/16266704098/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/16268492337/
[22:33:15] <Tom_itx> PCW, yours uses the pwmgen for the pulse right?
[22:33:17] <LeelooMinai> Baby steps
[22:33:47] <zeeshan|2> looks nice
[22:34:04] <Tom_itx> i would lose TX8-11 but i think i could get by that
[22:34:09] <pcw_home> mozmck: signal levels maybe... what is the 7I92 driving?
[22:34:41] <XXCoder> LeelooMinai: nice
[22:35:09] <LeelooMinai> I wish I could somhow attach it so it's easier to assemble/disassemble, but could not come up with anything easily done.
[22:35:38] <LeelooMinai> Unless I had a hole in the middle of the stand or something:)
[22:35:46] <pcw_home> if you have 5V referenced OPTO LEDs you normally have to use open drain mode on the step/dir outputs
[22:35:59] <furrywolf> zeeshan: lots of reasons. online ordering is slow, and for small orders, more expensive due to shipping. without radioshack, most people will no longer have any local access to electronics parts, greatly reducing the number of children introduced to them.
[22:36:04] <zeeshan|2> btw guys
[22:36:06] <zeeshan|2> i fried a 3rd drive
[22:36:19] <furrywolf> ... did you connect it to the z axis?
[22:36:23] <Tom_itx> you're not supposed to do that zeeshan|2
[22:36:35] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Children nowadays show online anyways:)
[22:36:49] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: Going for a Guiness record? :)
[22:37:07] <LeelooMinai> shop*
[22:37:11] <XXCoder> LeelooMinai: just use noneucludian access method ;)
[22:37:12] <Tom_itx> enough for one day...
[22:37:16] <furrywolf> did it fail during your power plugging tests, or did you plug the motor in?
[22:37:36] <zeeshan|2> it failed the same way
[22:37:48] <furrywolf> again, plugged in to the motor, or not?
[22:37:53] <zeeshan|2> plugged in
[22:37:56] <zeeshan|2> everything plugged in
[22:38:08] <furrywolf> what is your most expensive ohmmeter?
[22:38:17] <furrywolf> specifically, any that do 4-wire ohms?
[22:38:26] <zeeshan|2> nothing like that
[22:38:43] <zeeshan|2> im just plagued to never run this machine
[22:39:01] <XXCoder> LeelooMinai: still building or starting to run test it?
[22:39:06] <LeelooMinai> O, I thought it was a joke... You killed 2 of them? :)
[22:39:17] <XXCoder> 3 now
[22:39:19] <LeelooMinai> XXCoder: Close, but not yet - need VFD
[22:39:20] <furrywolf> ok... clip whatever meter you have to the motor, take the brake off, and SLOWLY (i.e. ONE RPM. take a full minute to rotate the shaft one turn) rotate the motor while watching the resistance.
[22:39:42] <furrywolf> if you can't do this due to the axis falling, block the axis and uncouple the motor.
[22:40:01] <zeeshan|2> that is a real pain in the ass to decouple
[22:40:03] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: It did not occur to you do analyze the fault after killing, I don't know, maybe first two? :p
[22:40:04] <mozmck> pcw_home: driving an HCT14
[22:40:20] <zeeshan|2> LeelooMinai: ... what the heck do you think i've been trying to do
[22:40:22] <zeeshan|2> for the last 3 days?
[22:40:34] <zeeshan|2> there were no external faults detected
[22:40:35] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: I don't know... killing stuff it seems:)
[22:40:41] <zeeshan|2> if you can't be useful
[22:40:43] <mozmck> pcw_home: then to gecko drives
[22:40:43] <zeeshan|2> don't comment, thanks
[22:40:50] <zeeshan|2> i'm already upset
[22:40:54] <zeeshan|2> i dont need witty comments
[22:41:04] <pcw_home> step timing marginal?
[22:41:05] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: After the first one I would get really paranoid:)
[22:41:17] <furrywolf> I'm wondering if you don't have a single shorted pole in the motor, that's been missed during tests...
[22:41:18] <zeeshan|2> ignore works good
[22:41:21] <witnit_> zeeshan if its brush dc you could drive it back and forth with just dc and monitor everything without the risks
[22:41:46] <XXCoder> single pole in spidle shorted?
[22:41:59] <furrywolf> yes, that'd work too. run the motor off a low voltage DC source with a light bulb in series with it, and observe brightness changes while letting it slowly rotate.
[22:42:02] <mozmck> pcw_home: I'll check that - I have an led panel that shows step and dir activity though, and it only showed steps in one direction
[22:42:03] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: You have few more of those to test?
[22:42:13] <zeeshan|2> what kind of lightbulb
[22:42:23] <XXCoder> LeelooMinai: think zee is ignoring you now but thwen his statement was vague
[22:42:30] <zeeshan|2> i have a 125v 1.75W bulb ithink
[22:42:31] <XXCoder> or maybe me lol
[22:42:33] <furrywolf> a car taillight bulb would be good.
[22:43:07] <furrywolf> you want lower voltage and more watts... you need to be able to get enough power through it to make the motor turn. :)
[22:43:11] <witnit_> furrywolf good for 14v up to lots of amps right
[22:43:27] <LeelooMinai> Sometimes when things explode, it's good to set up some safe testing environment
[22:43:51] <zeeshan|2> so i need to turn the motor slowly
[22:44:01] <zeeshan|2> and have an ohmmeter hooked up and watch for resistance changes
[22:44:09] <furrywolf> witnit: a taillight bulb is about 1A, which, at a very rough guess, is a good current to make his motor turn at a reasonable speed.
[22:44:09] <zeeshan|2> you're basically trying to see if there is an intermittent short
[22:44:13] <furrywolf> correct
[22:44:21] <LeelooMinai> 1.75 bulb is pretty tiny...
[22:44:33] <witnit_> if you can set up a toggle switch and get it to revers the direction of your motor every few rotations it would be nice to automate while you spec eeverything out
[22:44:42] <zeeshan|2> here's a question for you
[22:44:48] <zeeshan|2> since i have to decouple the motor
[22:44:51] <zeeshan|2> using the second idea
[22:44:55] <zeeshan|2> i have a 12v car battery
[22:45:05] <furrywolf> since it didn't melt without the motor plugged in, despite all your best efforts to make it melt, then promptly did so when you plugged the motor in, it's really got to be something with that motor...
[22:45:05] <zeeshan|2> can i not just spin the motor at 12v
[22:45:22] <pcw_home> yep
[22:45:31] <furrywolf> you can spin the motor at 12v, but you need the 12v light bulb too to easily see current changes.
[22:45:33] <mozmck> pcw_home: G251 has a min 1 microsecond pulse width, and the ini is set to 2500 ns
[22:45:34] <zeeshan|2> but the thing is
[22:45:35] <XXCoder> furrywolf: is what LeelooMinai said possible, one pole being shorted?
[22:45:38] <zeeshan|2> it's short circuit protected..
[22:45:50] <furrywolf> xxcoder: I'm the one that said that, and yes, it's possible.
[22:45:51] <zeeshan|2> the drive would go in fault mode
[22:45:56] <zeeshan|2> so i dont understand why all these tests
[22:46:10] <LeelooMinai> They are called sanity checks:)
[22:46:11] <zeeshan|2> (not trying to argue)
[22:46:15] <zeeshan|2> (trying to be logical)
[22:46:22] <mozmck> pcw_home: this is the hm2-pidstepper.hal I added stuff for the charge pump...
[22:46:26] <XXCoder> furrywolf: oh oops misread
[22:46:28] <furrywolf> zeeshan: it could be it doesn't fault correctly on power up, or something... also, manufacturers often make claims that do not fully correspond to the real-world operation of the product.
[22:46:56] <zeeshan|2> fair enough
[22:46:58] <pcw_home> did you invert the step pulses (default at the FPGA pins is active high)
[22:47:05] <zeeshan|2> furry decoupling the motor is a pain
[22:47:09] <zeeshan|2> i think ill let the axis fall slowly.
[22:47:12] <zeeshan|2> with a jack under it
[22:47:22] <zeeshan|2> that way i can control the rate of fall
[22:47:24] <furrywolf> for example, the manual says it's protected in all those ways, then also says the drive will be damaged if you connect a motor below the minimum rated impedance. a motor with too low of impedance SHOULD trip the short-circuit protection... but it doesn't, since they say it'll damage the drive!
[22:47:26] <zeeshan|2> and monitor the terminal
[22:47:29] <witnit_> you dont have to uncouple if you have the amps to move the work around
[22:47:31] <LeelooMinai> power jack? :)
[22:47:52] <mozmck> pcw_home: no, but that should not have affected my blinky LED board.
[22:48:00] <XXCoder> jack in box
[22:48:07] <mozmck> and the motors run fine one direction.
[22:48:08] <furrywolf> a short circuit happens to have a rather low impedance, and the manual says a low impedance will damage it, despite earlier saying it shouldn't....
[22:48:19] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: good point
[22:49:06] <furrywolf> it's got to be something about that motor or its wiring, even though everything seems to test good.
[22:49:19] <furrywolf> if it were just smps startup issues or something, your cord plugging test would have fried it.
[22:50:19] <zeeshan|2> is there any tests i can do for the tachometer
[22:50:21] <zeeshan|2> while im doing this
[22:50:31] <pcw_home> mozmck: weird
[22:50:59] <pcw_home> Ill have to try tommorow
[22:51:09] <furrywolf> I don't think a tachometer issue, other than being shorted to a source of power (such as the motor or brake circuits), could fry the drive.
[22:51:38] <zeeshan|2> i really appreciate the help
[22:51:44] <zeeshan|2> its the only thing that makes me feel better about these blow ups
[22:51:44] <zeeshan|2> lol
[22:52:00] <pcw_home> you could short the motor leads and it should drop slowly and smoothly
[22:52:06] <furrywolf> so far none of my help has resulted in diagnosis of a problem, so don't appreciate it too much. :P
[22:52:10] <mozmck> pcw_home: I'm about to knock it off here too, I'll look at it again tomorrow
[22:52:19] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home, talking to me?
[22:52:44] * LeelooMinai helps by quoting a saying "Three times a charm"
[22:53:05] <furrywolf> pcw: that won't let him measure for any problems, though, and probably would be spinning too fast to visually see them in the speed.
[22:53:24] <pcw_home> it will not spin fast shorted
[22:53:42] <zeeshan|2> to get an idea
[22:53:43] <zeeshan|2> http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a161/Stacker22/Motorlayout.jpg
[22:53:51] <zeeshan|2> thats what my motor looks like inside?
[22:53:53] <furrywolf> he doesn't have a 'scope, much less one with a current probe. letting it fall and watching it won't tell him anything. :)
[22:54:24] <pcw_home> Not true a shorted or open segment will be noticeable
[22:55:19] <zeeshan|2> http://www.edisontechcenter.org/ElectricMotors/UniversalMotor600.jpg
[22:55:21] <furrywolf> hrmm, that's a good point... the drive could fry on open too, if it were sufficiently poorly designed. they do have a large warning not to put a switch on the motor side of the drive or it fries... could even just be bad brushes if the drive fries that easily.
[22:55:22] <zeeshan|2> what part would be shorting?
[22:55:24] <zeeshan|2> the commutator?
[22:55:37] <XXCoder> furrywolf: sometimes line of question hekpos
[22:55:53] <furrywolf> the commutator can have metal filings stuck in the bars, or the windings could have overheated and shorted together.
[22:55:55] <pcw_home> Thast kind od why i suggested checking the commutator/brushes
[22:56:05] <pcw_home> thats kind of why
[22:56:05] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: how can i dothat
[22:56:08] <zeeshan|2> without taking it apart
[22:56:16] <furrywolf> I still think watching the resistance is the next test. it's pretty simple.
[22:56:20] <LeelooMinai> By taking the brushes off?
[22:56:21] <zeeshan|2> yea ill do the resistance test
[22:56:23] <zeeshan|2> but i want more than one :)
[22:56:27] <zeeshan|2> while im dirtaaayy
[22:56:30] <zeeshan|2> ill check other things too if i can
[22:56:53] <zeeshan|2> ill do the motor lead short test too
[22:56:56] <zeeshan|2> and let it fall
[22:57:13] <zeeshan|2> when i short the motor winding
[22:57:22] <zeeshan|2> it should act like a magnet inside an aluminum tube?
[22:57:26] <furrywolf> do the resistance test first. letting it fall, or running it off a car battery, could clear the short instead of diagnose it.
[22:57:32] <zeeshan|2> you will have eddy currents forming?
[22:57:34] <pcw_home> mozmck: its my fault
[22:57:49] <mozmck> oh?
[22:57:51] <LeelooMinai> He does not have a DMM or what?
[22:57:51] <zeeshan|2> the running off car battery
[22:57:56] <zeeshan|2> I MUST, put a bulb in series?
[22:58:01] <zeeshan|2> otherwise it'll draw too much current?
[22:58:09] <zeeshan|2> and im watching out for the bulb to go dimmer?
[22:58:18] <zeeshan|2> for a short period -- indicating there is a short ?
[22:58:18] <pcw_home> I think the demo hal file sets up the stepgen in quadrature mode
[22:58:20] <furrywolf> if it's shorted, it'll draw way too much current, yes. but it won't damage a healthy motor.
[22:58:41] <furrywolf> if it flashes dimmer, you have an open winding or bad brushes/commutator, if it flashes brighter, you have a short.
[22:58:44] <zeeshan|2> i gotta figure out how to disable the brake on this thing
[22:58:57] <furrywolf> power it up, turn brake off? heh
[22:59:05] <zeeshan|2> its not that easy
[22:59:09] <mozmck> pcw_home: I wondered about the mode, but had not looked up to see what the differences are yet.
[22:59:13] <zeeshan|2> the brake and motor winding pins
[22:59:15] <zeeshan|2> are on the same connector
[22:59:23] <zeeshan|2> i'd need to power up the machine to release the brake
[22:59:24] <zeeshan|2> nm
[22:59:26] <zeeshan|2> im dumb
[22:59:29] <furrywolf> in series, the more current you draw, the brighter the bulb is. if it dims, it means you're drawing less current. if it gets brighter, it means you're drawing more current....
[22:59:29] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[22:59:39] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: yes
[22:59:48] <zeeshan|2> not sure why i was thinking opposite
[22:59:49] <furrywolf> they're on different connectors at the motor drive, unless I very much misunderstand your wiring.
[22:59:57] <zeeshan|2> ok resistance test, motor power test w/ bulb
[23:00:02] <zeeshan|2> i hope this shwos the problem.
[23:00:20] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: you're correct.
[23:00:37] <zeeshan|2> brb this will take a while |:P
[23:00:42] <furrywolf> I like bulbs. a 'scope would give you much much more accurate results... but a bulb is easy to see major problems with visually and quickly.
[23:00:58] <furrywolf> ok. I can't stay up late again tonight, so if it takes more than 30 mins, I'll be in bed.
[23:01:04] <zeeshan|2> okay
[23:01:05] <furrywolf> I was useless today due to insufficient sleep.
[23:01:22] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|2: You will be stuck with me helping you then
[23:01:49] <furrywolf> if you want to take the motor apart and test it, I've got a growler you can borrow... but that's extreme, and it's fucking heavy. :)
[23:02:57] <mozmck> pcw_home: step_type is set to 1 which looks like UP/Down mode whatever that is
[23:03:04] * furrywolf checks for a video so people can see how to use a growler, since it's a tool most people haven't used
[23:03:24] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXQ0heuV6VE
[23:03:27] <furrywolf> also, that's a sexy motor.
[23:03:40] <pcw_home> you're making me sleepy...
[23:04:25] <mozmck> heh, I'm going to bed, I'll get back at this in the morning. Thanks.
[23:06:57] <pcw_home> up/down is CW/CCW mode
[23:07:30] <pcw_home> sorry must have come from an example for someone that needed that
[23:07:36] <Connor> Tom_itx: pcw_home: Yea, the C6 just totally sucked.. the C41 worked way better.
[23:08:14] <pcw_home> input signal needed seems a bit dorky
[23:08:21] <PetefromTn_> Ok thats enough I'm shuttin' this baby down for the day LOL...
[23:08:32] <Connor> It's a Pulse Step at 25khz
[23:09:47] <Connor> Tom_itx: http://linuxcnc.org/dapper/emc2/index.php/russian/forum/10-advanced-configuration/11151-adding-a-c6-speed-control-board
[23:09:53] <Connor> You can try that maybe...
[23:10:19] <Connor> stepgen must be in velocity mode...
[23:11:38] <pcw_home> sounds like its a charge pump system rather than PWM
[23:12:22] <pcw_home> sleeeepppyyyyyy....................
[23:12:28] <pcw_home> nite all
[23:12:44] <furrywolf> pcw: if where you are is anywhere like here, you can probably find some meth within 5 minutes.
[23:13:26] <PetefromTn_> Gn8 Pete
[23:13:50] <pcw_home> used to be across the street till the police/hazmat people took its all away
[23:13:58] <pcw_home> bbl
[23:14:10] <furrywolf> it'll keep you up all night... all week if you want! :P
[23:14:15] <furrywolf> cyas
[23:15:00] <furrywolf> meh, batts at 23.4V... might need to run the genny a bit tomorrow. this storm just keeps going on.
[23:15:15] <Connor> furrywolf: ??
[23:15:21] <furrywolf> the forecast for now through tomorrow is 4-8" of rain...
[23:16:22] <XXCoder> flood warning around here
[23:16:41] <XXCoder> good thing while I am very close to inlet sea, I live at pretty high area
[23:16:43] <Connor> furrywolf: What batteries ?
[23:16:54] <furrywolf> flood watch near here, hasn't been upgraded to a warning yet.
[23:17:05] <furrywolf> not for my area, a bit away
[23:17:21] <furrywolf> connor: the assortment of crappy failing leadacid ones that make my solar system work.
[23:17:34] <Connor> Oh. Didn't know you had solar.
[23:17:35] <XXCoder> oops watch not warning
[23:17:46] <XXCoder> gonna love washingrton foreverain
[23:18:05] <furrywolf> is it different than california foreverrain?
[23:18:22] <XXCoder> you mean forevernorain?
[23:18:24] <furrywolf> they call it the pacific northwet for a reason. :)
[23:18:35] <furrywolf> ... some places here get over 200" a year.
[23:18:40] <XXCoder> I hear california is under super massive drought
[23:18:51] <furrywolf> you seem to be confusing california with SOUTHERN california.
[23:18:54] <XXCoder> no rain at all Jan, first in over hundred years
[23:18:55] <furrywolf> they don't get much rain.
[23:20:05] <furrywolf> eh? my weather station shows rain in jan...
[23:21:39] <furrywolf> the northern part of california is the same climate as oregon and washington coast... rain most of the year, often plentiful.
[23:21:47] <XXCoder> ahh san francisco
[23:21:59] <XXCoder> first jan with no rain there in 165 years
[23:22:13] <furrywolf> we are _not_ in a drought here, and weren't at any point recently. our reservoir was full to the brim, and has been overflowing already this winter.
[23:22:23] <XXCoder> nice
[23:22:25] <renesis> ?
[23:22:28] <furrywolf> yeah, that's six hours south of here, and a very different climate.
[23:22:33] <renesis> way to be part of the team furry
[23:22:43] <XXCoder> yeah I used to live at south calfornia
[23:22:56] <renesis> but yeah, northwest cali is pretty green, and rest of the state doesnt steal from them as much
[23:22:56] <XXCoder> it was in middle of minor drought, it never rained entire year I lived therwe
[23:23:17] <XXCoder> and then day before I got plane ride to washington, it finally rained. massive
[23:23:35] <renesis> i guess reservoir in butte county is crazy low
[23:23:42] <furrywolf> here we have giant redwoods, that thrive on all the moisture, both rain and fog.
[23:23:48] <renesis> cachuma near santa barbara is almost dry
[23:24:04] <renesis> theres a reservoir east of monterey that way low last time i drove by
[23:24:16] <XXCoder> renesis: http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexnaidus/california-drought-images#.bcdjRNwKw
[23:24:22] <renesis> yeah where furry lives is a lot more like the pacific northwest
[23:24:30] <XXCoder> man been a long while since I last saw redwoods
[23:24:35] <furrywolf> pacific northwet, please. :P
[23:24:50] <renesis> yeah oroville is the butte county one i mentioned
[23:25:34] <renesis> furrywolf: youre being inappropriate!
[23:25:51] <furrywolf> ?
[23:25:54] <renesis> cachuma has been low as long as i can remember
[23:26:02] <renesis> furrywolf: im being inappropriate
[23:26:12] <furrywolf> ruth lake is the one here, and it's currently overflowing.
[23:26:23] <renesis> but lately, there are huge sections that are dry lake beds, just the lowest parts still have water
[23:26:29] <renesis> water from that res is hard as fuck
[23:26:55] <renesis> didnt get the stains off my dishes until i moved up here (im near the oroville reservoir, prob where my water comes from, dunno really)
[23:27:16] <furrywolf> last summer where people were complaining there was a water emergency, our reservoir was full, and had three years of water stored at current usage rates, with no conservation, even if there was no rain at all those three years...
[23:27:42] <renesis> is your county doing rationing like everyone else?
[23:27:59] <XXCoder> night
[23:28:03] <renesis> night
[23:28:05] <XXCoder> dream of plenty of water lol
[23:28:22] <furrywolf> the state kept telling us to save water. we didn't.
[23:28:31] <renesis> yeah how does that work?
[23:28:40] <renesis> are they trying to fine people?
[23:28:57] <furrywolf> all they did was publish the state-required things, like not overwatering lawns. no enforcement.
[23:29:14] <renesis> yeah they only enforce in some districts in LA
[23:29:27] <renesis> theyre paying people to tear up grass
[23:29:34] <renesis> which i think is long overdue
[23:29:46] <furrywolf> the biggest water problem here is the rest of the state stealing it.
[23:29:52] <renesis> i think rock and gravel gardens with wildflowers and succelents are much more appropriate
[23:30:00] <renesis> yeah but you guys get paid, no?
[23:30:08] <furrywolf> no
[23:30:14] <renesis> wtf
[23:30:29] <renesis> its just considered a state owned resource?
[23:31:04] <renesis> you guys dont do heavy ag, i dont think you should be penalized because of it
[23:31:48] <renesis> furrywolf: do you have problems with oil company waste?
[23:32:20] <furrywolf> ... oil companies?
[23:32:26] <renesis> i think thats mostly east of you area, you guys might end up the only source of clean water in the north
[23:32:37] <furrywolf> there are no oil companies around here.
[23:32:45] <renesis> yeah theres an EPA dispute because of poor contract documentation
[23:33:06] <renesis> EPA and state dont agree on where its okay for oil company to pump waste water into the ground
[23:33:45] <renesis> state and EPA have diff copies of the same doc where state was given control of regulating oil company waste water
[23:34:04] <renesis> EPA is pissed, oil companies say its the safest way to get rid of the waste
[23:34:20] <renesis> and ground water pollutants are rising in those areas
[23:34:29] <renesis> i think its mostly around the central valley
[23:35:49] <renesis> furrywolf: im pretty sure you have rigs off the coast
[23:36:11] <furrywolf> you're pretty sure of a lot of things.
[23:36:13] <renesis> usually that stuff is piped to some distribution hub on the coast, but its not necessarily refined there
[23:36:33] <renesis> ya because i dont have a photographic memories, if you care i can find the article
[23:38:39] <renesis> http://rt.com/usa/194620-california-aquifers-fracking-contamination/
[23:38:41] <furrywolf> SF may not have had rain last month, but the log for the local airport says 2.07", which is about what my weather station says.
[23:39:04] <renesis> were supposed to get like 5" this weekend
[23:39:12] <furrywolf> we're getting 3-9".
[23:39:19] <renesis> hardcore
[23:39:39] <furrywolf> yes, that article is nowhere near here.
[23:40:19] <zeeshan|2> yea.
[23:40:25] <zeeshan|2> nothing spectacular found
[23:40:42] <zeeshan|2> seems to run fine
[23:40:54] <zeeshan|2> so i got fedup and decided to plug in one of the older drives back into the power
[23:40:55] <renesis> trying to find the one that mentions the disputed regions in the contracts
[23:41:02] <zeeshan|2> and suprisngly, no fuse blew
[23:41:08] <zeeshan|2> nor did anything else explode.
[23:41:14] <zeeshan|2> or smoke
[23:41:15] <renesis> everything that was going to die may have blown open
[23:41:26] <zeeshan|2> ive only tried this w/ one board
[23:41:52] <zeeshan|2> renesis: but im meaasuring 0 ohms.
[23:41:56] <zeeshan|2> @ the power entry
[23:42:00] <zeeshan|2> that indicates a short circuit
[23:42:09] <zeeshan|2> unless im intrepreting that wrong
[23:42:11] <furrywolf> resistance was nice and constant at all angles?
[23:42:16] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: no
[23:42:18] <zeeshan|2> it changes
[23:42:25] <furrywolf> oh?
[23:42:26] <zeeshan|2> depending on how quickly iturn it
[23:42:34] <furrywolf> measure while it's stopped. :)
[23:42:42] <zeeshan|2> while it's stopped its the same
[23:42:45] <zeeshan|2> +/- 0.5 ohm
[23:42:53] <furrywolf> ok
[23:43:00] <zeeshan|2> the bulb test also showed nothing fancy
[23:43:03] <furrywolf> so... what about that motor blows drives? lol
[23:43:12] <zeeshan|2> i dont know
[23:43:13] <zeeshan|2> its plagued
[23:43:13] <zeeshan|2> haha
[23:43:14] <furrywolf> bulb was a constant brightness the whole time, no bright flickers?
[23:43:19] <zeeshan|2> yea
[23:43:30] <zeeshan|2> i really think i either need a scope
[23:43:32] <zeeshan|2> :P
[23:43:43] <zeeshan|2> im more interested in frying these drives more
[23:43:47] <furrywolf> or you need to make the drive manufacturer fix their drives. heh.
[23:43:58] <zeeshan|2> out of warranty
[23:43:59] <zeeshan|2> :P
[23:44:16] <zeeshan|2> what i dont get is why when i plug this bad drive in
[23:44:18] <zeeshan|2> there is no fire
[23:44:19] <zeeshan|2> or smoke
[23:44:31] <furrywolf> because parts have opened
[23:44:38] <zeeshan|2> but i measure 0 ohms!
[23:44:41] <zeeshan|2> at power entry
[23:44:57] <furrywolf> maybe it has a hidden internal fuse, maybe the input rectifier blew, who knows.
[23:45:06] <zeeshan|2> input rectifier didnt blow
[23:45:08] <furrywolf> still measures 0 ohms?
[23:45:09] <renesis> zeeshan|2: how long did you measure zero ohms?
[23:45:09] <zeeshan|2> i measured the output voltage
[23:45:15] <zeeshan|2> like 10 sec?
[23:45:21] <renesis> no change?
[23:45:30] <zeeshan|2> ill need to do it again, i wasnt paying attention
[23:45:34] <zeeshan|2> i just probed it quickly
[23:45:47] <renesis> might just be discharged caps
[23:46:14] <furrywolf> bbl, time for bed. I'll try to think of more tests that'll rule out problems. eventually you'll eliminate so many possible problems that whatever remains must be the problem. :P
[23:46:25] <renesis> leave the meter on it and if ohms rise at a steady rate, its just caps
[23:46:29] <furrywolf> renesis: most multimeters test at too low of a voltage to get through the input bridge
[23:47:19] <renesis> 1.4V isnt huge and it could be schottky
[23:47:47] <furrywolf> it's not going to be schottky on a mains input, and most meters are <0.5V, intentionally so they do not make semis conduct.
[23:47:53] <furrywolf> bbl
[23:49:25] <zeeshan|2> haha furrywolf
[23:49:27] <zeeshan|2> thanks man
[23:49:37] <zeeshan|2> i left it on for 30 seconds
[23:49:43] <zeeshan|2> reads 0
[23:50:07] <renesis> then why are you not flipping breakers or fuses
[23:50:28] <zeeshan|2> i dont know :-)
[23:52:01] <zeeshan|2> im gonna try plugging the other drive in
[23:52:34] * LeelooMinai waits for smoke
[23:52:36] <renesis> are you sure the meter doesnt say OL