#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-01-21

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[00:00:14] <XXCoder> unless its redesigned to radate heat away
[00:00:23] <XXCoder> must have BIGASS radatior
[00:00:25] <PetefromTn_> just saw it in this movie...black VW beelte...perhaps it was an EV conversion LOL
[00:01:03] <XXCoder> well assuming someone added air tank to supply oxy to engine too LOL
[00:01:10] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: most likely ev yes lol
[00:01:58] <PetefromTn_> I must be getting tired...
[00:03:49] <PetefromTn_> cya tomorrow folks.
[00:04:01] <XXCoder> cover your ass tomorrow
[00:04:05] <XXCoder> damn I type slow lol
[02:12:18] <Deejay> moin
[07:26:18] <zeeshan> zzzzzzz
[07:26:21] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/VLUKw5F.png
[07:26:25] <zeeshan> all 3 vfds working
[07:26:29] <zeeshan> !
[07:28:19] <Tom_itx> i see no metal shavings...
[07:28:50] <zeeshan> hehe
[07:28:56] <zeeshan> still a while from there
[07:28:57] <zeeshan> need tool :/
[07:29:14] <zeeshan> prolly get them by next week
[07:29:15] <Tom_itx> is that what your modbus looks like?
[07:29:27] <zeeshan> yes
[07:29:39] <zeeshan> this one spindle vfd was a pain cause it did not use modbus
[07:29:47] <zeeshan> it used its own serial protocol
[07:30:08] <zeeshan> most time consuming part was trying to modify a modbus library to add an extension to it
[07:30:23] <jdh> it isn't a 'pain', it is an opportunity to succeed.
[07:30:47] <zeeshan> its a pain man, regular modbus vfd takes like at most 1hr to write the driver for
[07:30:53] <zeeshan> maybe 4hours
[07:30:58] <zeeshan> this thing took 4 days
[07:31:43] <jdh> how long would it take now.
[07:31:52] <zeeshan> about the same
[07:31:53] <zeeshan> :P
[07:32:20] <Tom_itx> did you save a copy of it?
[07:32:29] <zeeshan> no
[07:32:34] <zeeshan> after work today
[10:00:47] <jdh> oops
[10:06:19] <Jymmm> What you do jdh, WHAT DID YOU DO!!!
[10:07:19] <jdh> not me, he cursed his computer by not saving important work elsewhere.
[10:09:50] <malcom2073> There's a computer joke about "Jesus Saves", but I forget it
[10:10:13] <jdh> save early, save often.
[10:10:21] <archivist> what, you did not back it up?
[10:10:26] <malcom2073> I like that solidworks pops up a window when I haven't saved recently
[10:11:52] <jdh> that's annoying.
[10:11:59] <jdh> auto-save to a recovery file in teh background
[10:12:13] <jdh> I really despise anything that pops up and steals focus
[10:12:48] <malcom2073> It doesn't steal focus
[10:12:54] <malcom2073> just a little window inthe bottom right
[10:13:19] <malcom2073> Not a popup really, part of the main screen, but it "looks" like a window
[10:13:37] <malcom2073> but yeah auto-saving to a recovery file would be cool
[10:17:02] <pcw_home> real operating systems have file versions :-)
[10:18:56] <unfy> as far as focus, my primary hate.... that i still foam at the mouth over to this day.... is the old X11 "sloppy mouse focus" stuff
[10:19:36] <unfy> where the WM moves focus to whatever is beneath the mouse cursor, even without a click. as someone who "tosses his mouse" to the side / corner of screen constantly - that drove me batty
[10:19:52] <malcom2073> I like not having to click on a window to scroll things :/
[10:20:17] <unfy> and - ITS BEING USED TODAY still! folks are doing it in web things! you put your mouse over a search thing, you click on it and get a box. move the mouse away and BAM - it hides the search thing
[10:21:05] <unfy> annnnnnyway. /rant :D
[10:22:25] <archivist> not as bad as the win8 hiding the vertical scroll bar from the screen
[10:23:07] <unfy> "does it need to be there all the time" ... "should it be context aware" ... i dunno.
[10:23:20] <unfy> on a small screen i actually use the auto hide task bar stuff....
[10:23:38] <unfy> sadly, none of the context aware shit ever works correctly ._.
[10:23:45] <archivist> you have to wave right get the bar back to get further down a page
[10:25:03] <unfy> there is much about win8 that attempts to bring the tablet / phone experience to the PC ... which... outside of a tablet pc... makes no sense ._.
[10:25:16] <unfy> i still haven't used win8 for more than an hour overall
[10:25:29] <mozmck> same for gnome3 and unity
[10:25:36] <unfy> ugh ._.
[10:25:38] <_methods> that's why i use xfce
[10:25:41] <_methods> it's all i need
[10:25:42] <_methods> simple
[10:25:44] <_methods> lightweight
[10:25:45] <unfy> xfce <3 window maker <3
[10:25:52] <unfy> (or afterstep heh)
[10:26:08] <Rab> unfy, focus-follows-mouse is the first thing I turn on. I still think it's the best thing since sliced bread. ;)
[10:26:14] <unfy> i wrote several of my own dock apps for as/wm :D
[10:26:25] * unfy chews on rab's corner! nu nu nu nuuuuuuuuu
[10:26:26] <mozmck> and the gnome3 folks attitude is as bad as or maybe worse than microsoft's
[10:27:56] <mozmck> I use xfce, but I use the Nemo file manager (fork of nautilus with all the good features left in etc.)
[10:29:12] <Rab> http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/wmx/
[10:29:17] <Rab> ^^ best WM of all time
[10:31:28] <_methods> hmmm i might try that i just use thunar
[10:32:10] <mozmck> thunar is pretty nice, but I like having tabs in the file manager, so I don't have to open so many windows.
[10:32:45] <unfy> wmx looks a bit beos like....
[10:32:51] <unfy> and.... i think i like it <3
[10:33:11] <unfy> i miss the old days when i had time to mess around with such things
[10:33:34] <mozmck> I also use nemo-terminal which embeds a small terminal at the top of the directory window. Very nice for running a quick command in a directory such as "git pull" :)
[10:34:22] <mozmck> There are also hotkeys to switch between bookmarks and tree view on the left which I don't think Thunar has.
[10:35:34] <mozmck> I also use rabbitvcs which integrates nicely with nemo and shows me at a glance if one of my 40+ projects has changes which are not commited.
[10:43:22] <unfy> so. do i make my own signal generator ... or buy something.... hmmm
[10:44:41] <norias> hello
[10:45:20] <_methods> yeah thunar is pretty basic lol
[10:45:24] <_methods> no frills
[10:50:47] <norias> hmm
[10:50:57] <norias> is the mesa 7i48 fully supported now?
[10:52:27] <jthornton_> Well I've tried Debian Wheezy and Ubuntu 12.04 on this computer and the only one that recognized the monitor is Ubuntu 10.04
[10:52:39] <mozmck> pcw_home: is the order status in your store accurate? does it get updated?
[10:53:35] <mozmck> jthornton_: I wonder if you can have 10.04 write out an xorg.conf that works, then use it in one of the others?
[10:54:05] <jthornton_> everytime I add an xorg.conf file the computer will not boot up
[10:54:26] <mozmck> that's odd.
[10:54:53] <jthornton_> there is no xorg.conf file of any kind on this machine
[10:55:21] <pcw_home> Yes but only when order is entered (We have been doing inventory, but will be done today so the order should be entered/shipped today or tomorrow)
[10:55:58] <jthornton_> mozmck, with 10.04 lspci -k gives me 00:0d.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation C61 [GeForce 6150SE nForce 430] (rev a2)
[10:55:58] <jthornton_> Kernel driver in use: nouveau
[10:55:58] <jthornton_> Kernel modules: nvidiafb, nouveau
[10:56:21] <jthornton_> with wheezy it does not report a kernel driver in use
[10:56:43] <mozmck> inventory does not sound like a fun thing
[10:57:09] <pcw_home> no, its a pain
[10:57:50] <archivist> barcodes and good software to make it easy
[10:57:54] <pcw_home> on the other hand we have about a ton of old parts we will never use again weeded out
[10:58:12] <pcw_home> so made some shelf space
[10:58:30] <mozmck> heh, that's nice anyhow.
[10:58:43] <pcw_home> want 780 74HC14s?
[10:58:52] <mozmck> SMT?
[10:58:57] <pcw_home> no
[10:59:03] <renesis> hmm
[10:59:10] <archivist> I have enough 14s already
[10:59:19] <pcw_home> also all leaded parts are going
[10:59:31] <pcw_home> ~1000 RA BNCs
[10:59:35] <renesis> got any optos?
[10:59:46] <renesis> damn yo those are worth $$$
[10:59:54] <pcw_home> probably not
[11:00:05] <renesis> prob get .20 for each easy
[11:00:12] <mozmck> pcw_home: there's a surplus shop here that might be interested.
[11:00:19] <renesis> unless they have fucked plating
[11:00:37] <pcw_home> they look fine (amp)
[11:01:06] <renesis> wtfif theyre amp, you can prob get like $200 for 1000 easy
[11:01:22] <archivist> I have 114 Texas SN54LS14J
[11:01:28] <mozmck> yeah, get someone to put them on ebay
[11:01:35] <renesis> easy money
[11:01:40] <renesis> you can get way more if you wait
[11:02:03] <archivist> never had a sniff at mine
[11:02:22] <pcw_home> too much to fuss with, anyone in the SFBA is welcome to it if pick up, and they take all ~20 cu ft
[11:02:27] <norias> quick question...
[11:02:35] <norias> if i get a 5i20
[11:02:35] <renesis> 7414? no one wants those
[11:02:48] <norias> can i connect multiple 7i33-ta's to it?
[11:02:57] <pcw_home> yes up to 3
[11:03:00] <norias> wow
[11:03:06] <mozmck> heh, my goal is to stay way away from SFBA :)
[11:03:17] <renesis> 3 hour drive =(
[11:03:24] <archivist> too far to travel :(
[11:04:20] <renesis> like maybe $40 in gas round trip
[11:04:30] <mozmck> pcw_home: you should move to tx, way better taxes and business friendly.
[11:04:36] <renesis> i cant go during the week tho
[11:04:43] <renesis> yeah but youre in tx
[11:04:49] <renesis> bad enough hes in the bay area
[11:05:07] <renesis> you should move to monterey, because its fucking monterey
[11:05:08] <mozmck> tx is big enough I think :)
[11:05:26] <renesis> i dont mean you like, just you
[11:05:32] <renesis> i mean you like, anyone who moves to tx
[11:05:38] <renesis> =(
[11:05:44] <renesis> austin is prob ok
[11:09:37] <Rab> pcw_home, I know people at hackerspaces around there who might be happy to take those parts off your hands...mind if I point them your way?
[11:10:23] <pcw_home> Thats fine as long as they take everything
[11:10:31] <renesis> haha
[11:10:36] <renesis> no shopping!
[11:10:47] <Rab> Cool, thanks!
[11:12:02] <PetefromTn_> This is without a doubt...... bar none........ the STUPIDEST movie I have ever freakin' seen in my entire life.....thanks Valen LOL...
[11:12:02] <JT-Shop> anyone have an idea which image you would download for a wheezy live cd? https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/debian-installer/
[11:13:20] <JT-Shop> never mind I found the page I needed
[11:13:58] <cradek> yeah none of those are live
[11:14:02] <cradek> use https://www.debian.org/CD/live/
[11:14:24] <JT-Shop> thanks
[11:40:23] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4856932465.html is this a good deal?
[11:44:20] <jdh> did you google it?
[11:44:44] <jdh> http://www.amazon.com/Fowler-52-646-400-Extender-Measuring-Graduation/dp/B000XQ2T1E
[11:46:07] <JT-Shop> is there a channel for metal casting?
[11:46:16] <malcom2073> Heh, never used... because he's trying to scam people I guess?
[11:47:14] <PetefromTn_> hehe apparently not...
[11:47:27] <norias> nice
[11:47:53] <jdh> email him with the link and ask if his is the same?
[11:48:10] <PetefromTn_> looks like his comes in that nice plastic box? he
[11:48:35] <PetefromTn_> Ya know I have these copies of digitial machinist magazine here..
[11:48:48] <PetefromTn_> and there are a LOT of ads for the prototrack CNC machines..
[11:48:48] <Rab> The box is included in the Amazon listing.
[11:49:20] <jdh> digital machinist is fairly annoying
[11:49:36] <PetefromTn_> and they all seem to imply that CNC programming is REALLY REALLY difficult and that you don't have time to mess with it. that machinists are not smart enough to learn G code etc..
[11:49:47] <PetefromTn_> there is one I just read that kinda annoyed me LOL.
[11:49:48] <jdh> the "Along the G-Code way" part is particularly offensive.
[11:49:57] <norias> huh?
[11:50:00] <PetefromTn_> yup I read a lot of that..
[11:50:19] <toastydeath> to be honest the new Fanuc g-code is the best i've ever seen for nearly anything
[11:50:22] <PetefromTn_> I mean I understand that the magazine is directed at newbies...
[11:50:26] <jdh> it hasn't had any gcode it in for a couple years. just plastic printing shit
[11:50:38] <toastydeath> compared to the conversational languages of toy controls
[11:50:43] <toastydeath> it just spanks everything
[11:50:50] <norias> hmm, new fanuc?
[11:51:00] <PetefromTn_> but those prototrak ads always feature some old guy that is in business and implies he never needs to learn G code LOL...
[11:51:01] <norias> how about, implement the standard?
[11:51:22] <toastydeath> nobody implments the standard, so why start now
[11:51:28] <toastydeath> plus the shit they're adding is incredible
[11:51:37] <norias> lol
[11:51:38] <norias> fair
[11:51:41] <PetefromTn_> what shit who is addins?
[11:51:45] <PetefromTn_> adding?
[11:51:54] <toastydeath> Fanuc basically implemented conversational g-code
[11:51:58] <norias> yeah, what are they adding?
[11:52:21] <toastydeath> up in the g300 range, there's g-code canned cycles for all kinds of stuff similar to lathe canned cycles for roughing and finishing
[11:52:31] <toastydeath> like facing, pocketing, contouring
[11:52:39] <norias> yeah
[11:52:41] <toastydeath> they also added some virtual path controls
[11:52:48] <PetefromTn_> in conversational?
[11:52:51] <norias> oh
[11:52:52] <toastydeath> no, it's all in g-code
[11:52:53] <norias> eh.
[11:52:59] <norias> i've been doing that forever
[11:53:02] <toastydeath> but the control itself has live documentation
[11:53:02] <PetefromTn_> well yeah
[11:53:08] <norias> just write a generic sub
[11:53:12] <norias> for like pockets
[11:53:15] <PetefromTn_> most manufacturers have their own particular bent on G code...
[11:53:29] <PetefromTn_> many are quite interesting and useful.
[11:53:31] <toastydeath> of course they do, and i'm saying i've used a shitload of controls
[11:53:37] <toastydeath> and the new fanuc shit is amazing
[11:53:45] <norias> at the end of the day, if g-code is implemented well
[11:53:48] <toastydeath> by comparison to the piddly options other manufacturers have
[11:53:51] <norias> i.e. has loops, logic control
[11:54:03] <norias> calling of subs that can pass args
[11:54:09] <norias> the sky's the limit
[11:54:11] <PetefromTn_> I just get amused by those prototrak ads...
[11:54:34] <toastydeath> everyone can do that, and that's not impressive
[11:54:37] <norias> i get very unexcited by additional g-code commands
[11:54:41] <norias> that aren't portable
[11:54:50] <PetefromTn_> the idea that anyone who is smart enough to be a machinist would have issues with learning something that is not conversational..
[11:55:00] <PetefromTn_> cracks me up..
[11:55:17] <norias> i've met some dumb machinists
[11:55:24] <toastydeath> I think that's coming mostly out of the printing movement where people want parts but don't want to have to learn anything
[11:55:36] <PetefromTn_> my brother in law has a prototrak equipped CNC knee mill. When I was out there in Norcal visiting he showed it to me...it was not too impressive really.
[11:57:19] <PetefromTn_> well gotta go meet my wife for lunch.. BBL
[11:57:24] <norias> enjoy
[11:57:30] <PetefromTn_> THANKS!
[11:59:06] <norias> wtf is DDR3 long ram?
[11:59:12] <norias> is there a long and short?
[11:59:49] <LeelooMinai> If you hacksaw a module in half it's short:)
[11:59:49] <CaptHindsight> norias: have a link?
[12:00:03] <norias> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157565&cm_re=j1900-_-13-157-565-_-Product
[12:00:11] <archivist> laptop v stuff in towers
[12:00:15] <norias> i'm thinking about building my controller around that
[12:00:26] <norias> and just don't get what they are saying about the ram
[12:00:48] <archivist> laptops use a short version
[12:01:37] <LeelooMinai> They just mean that although the board is tiny, it can use normal ram modules from desktops
[12:01:40] <DaViruz> i've never seen it referred to as long dimm, usually it's dimm or so-dimm
[12:02:26] <norias> last computer i built was a... 486
[12:02:29] <norias> so.. yeah
[12:02:34] <LeelooMinai> Look at those ram slots - they are huge in comparison to the board - so it's a "feature"
[12:03:32] <pcw_home> Yeah a lot of the mini-itx boards use the SO-DIMMs so you cant borrow from normal desktop MBs
[12:03:58] <norias> hmm, ok
[12:04:56] <norias> how much ram should i get for linuxcnc?
[12:05:05] <norias> i'd assume 1G is more than enough...
[12:06:25] <pcw_home> can you even get 1G sticks anymore?
[12:06:50] <norias> yeah
[12:06:52] <norias> $17
[12:06:56] <norias> on newegg
[12:07:03] <norias> i know, i was surprised
[12:26:55] <norias> wtf
[12:27:06] <norias> they sell SSD's on PCI cards now?
[12:29:20] <pcw_home> PCIE probably
[12:29:38] <pcw_home> also miniPCIE
[12:30:17] <norias> yeah
[12:30:22] <norias> that's insane
[12:30:40] <norias> is that a good or bad idea for linuxcnc?
[12:30:43] <norias> or indifferent
[12:33:36] <pcw_home> Ive never used one but it probably shows up as a normal disk controller
[12:35:01] <norias> sounds nice to not have another cable running around
[12:35:15] <norias> two, really
[12:35:23] <norias> because i guess you wouldn't need a power cable for it
[12:38:36] <pcw_home> Yeah
[12:46:55] <mozmck> would PCIE be as fast as SATA? faster?
[12:49:52] <norias> i'm not even sure
[12:50:01] <norias> i'm still trying to comprehend this stuff
[12:50:19] <norias> last computer i built had an IDE connector for the HD
[12:50:27] <norias> i'm lost in the sauce
[12:52:02] <toastydeath> one pcie 2.0 lane is just barely slower than SATA
[12:52:31] <CaptHindsight> pcie has more bandwidth than SATA since you can have multiple lanes
[12:52:56] <toastydeath> it, however, does not matter for pretty much any drive except SSDs
[12:52:58] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#History_and_revisions
[12:53:20] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#Revisions
[12:54:11] <toastydeath> you should not worry about it even for ssds, however
[12:56:17] <CaptHindsight> do all the PCIe SSD's make themselves look like SATA drives?
[12:56:40] <norias> i like the idea of a PCIe not having cables
[12:56:43] <toastydeath> I don't know how they present themselves to the bios, i'm not familiar with the pcie handshake/probing
[12:56:48] <pcw_home> I would expect so
[12:57:18] <norias> does the motherboard have to have special support for the PCIe HD?
[12:57:25] <norias> or is it largely plug and play
[12:57:35] <pcw_home> PNP
[12:57:39] <norias> no kidding
[12:57:56] <norias> i think
[12:58:03] <norias> i'm going to document this build really well
[12:58:04] <pcw_home> PCI/PCIE stuff is pretty much all PNP
[12:58:07] <norias> for the benefit of others
[12:58:12] <CaptHindsight> SATA Express
[12:58:22] <CaptHindsight> PCI Express standard for solid state memory
[12:58:28] <norias> i'm thinking PCI E SSD
[12:58:44] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATA_Express
[12:58:55] <pcw_home> Yeah, though not too common yet
[12:59:04] <norias> no?
[12:59:05] <norias> hmm
[12:59:14] <norias> at the same time
[12:59:19] <norias> it's industrial so...
[12:59:27] <norias> it's probably going to be there for a while
[12:59:34] <pcw_home> SATA_Express is not too common I mean
[12:59:41] <norias> ahh
[13:00:05] <norias> or maybe i just put up with two more cables
[13:00:08] <norias> and save some cash
[13:00:29] <pcw_home> a SATA drive is more portable
[13:00:36] <norias> fair
[13:01:04] <pcw_home> (works on any vaguely modern MB)
[13:01:11] <norias> i'm surprised no one makes a linuxcnc box
[13:01:23] <norias> just , buy this box, slap it on your machine, wire up and go
[13:01:27] <mozmck> anyone have experience with this MB? Pretty good price right now: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135391
[13:01:40] <norias> linuxcnc preinstalled and pre-configured for the hardware
[13:02:20] <CaptHindsight> norias: too many variations, plus most people handy enough to use Linuxcnc are handy enough to build their own
[13:03:44] <CaptHindsight> plus lots of users are on tight budgets, if there was a $499 linuxcnc box with $475 in parts you'd hear about the $24 markup
[13:04:08] <norias> ha!
[13:04:18] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt
[13:04:24] <norias> same could be said about linux generally
[13:04:26] <SpeedEvil> this is some of the issues in making modern computer hardware
[13:04:37] <norias> why doesn't everyone just compile their own kernel?
[13:04:44] <SpeedEvil> this was wrtitten about mobile phone class hardware.
[13:04:49] <SpeedEvil> But the same pretty much applies.
[13:04:56] <norias> right on
[13:05:11] <SpeedEvil> The basic problem is a 'compile' of a linuxcnc capable motherboard may be the thick end of a thousand dollars.
[13:05:41] <norias> i think the value is in "tested and known to work"
[13:06:11] <SpeedEvil> The problem with tested and known to work hardware is that the manufacturer is normally under no obligation not to change it.
[13:06:17] <norias> i.e. don't spend a bunch of time on irc and forums finding the right hardware
[13:06:25] <norias> no, and that's fair, too
[13:06:32] <pcw_home> and your thousands of dollars and months of time have gone into something thats obsolete
[13:06:51] <norias> where do the thousands of dollars come from?
[13:06:57] <norias> i see boards for... $60
[13:07:00] <SpeedEvil> Now, there are vendors out there that guarantee to sell parts for extended periods.
[13:07:02] <SpeedEvil> They are not cheap
[13:07:08] <norias> i think this machine, altogether, will cost $500
[13:07:22] <pcw_home> (that was about building from scratch)
[13:07:27] <norias> oh, heck with that
[13:07:32] <SpeedEvil> norias: In order to sell a motherboard for $60, you need to build 50K of them
[13:07:48] <norias> i'm saying start with something relatively simple
[13:07:52] <norias> one class of stuff
[13:07:59] <pcw_home> the J1800/J1900 MBs are decent, low power and cheap
[13:07:59] <norias> oh, i'm not saying make the boards
[13:08:09] <roycroft> you find a cheap system board that works with linuxcnc
[13:08:12] <roycroft> for <$100
[13:08:13] <norias> i'm saying buy stuff off newegg
[13:08:17] <roycroft> then you buy two of them
[13:08:20] <norias> put it together in a box
[13:08:23] <roycroft> leave the other one in a box
[13:08:27] <norias> test it out well
[13:08:31] <roycroft> when the first one dies, you install the second one
[13:08:33] <CaptHindsight> laptops and some servers have 100% margins or more where desktop parts are in the few % range
[13:08:36] <norias> and offer it as the "no research" options
[13:08:37] <roycroft> and start looking for another board that works
[13:08:55] <SpeedEvil> norias: and you're selling that, and then the manufacturer changes the BIOS
[13:09:02] <SpeedEvil> norias: and it goes from 10us latency to 5ms
[13:09:12] <norias> i know tons of people in to cnc as hobby
[13:09:18] <norias> that don't want to learn all that stuff
[13:09:31] <roycroft> the other option is to find a machine that works and that the federal government buys
[13:09:32] <pcw_home> If you are not after really low latency for software stepping, almost anything can be made to work
[13:09:37] <norias> or, machine shops with dead machines
[13:09:48] <roycroft> the government requires parts availability for five years
[13:09:54] <roycroft> as part of its contract
[13:09:57] <norias> right
[13:10:07] <norias> i think it's doable
[13:10:09] <roycroft> so you if you use a governement model you can be sure to get it fixed for five years
[13:10:16] <norias> i don't think you'd make tons of money
[13:10:45] <norias> but if you had, say, two tested mobo's
[13:10:45] <roycroft> but almost any computer will work for linuxcnc with a mesa board, won't it?
[13:11:01] <SpeedEvil> norias: It's all doable.
[13:11:06] <norias> if supplier A changes
[13:11:07] <roycroft> you're offloading the real time stuff to the mesa board
[13:11:09] <norias> switch to B
[13:11:10] <SpeedEvil> norias: the problem is - is it doable at a profit.
[13:11:18] <norias> oh, really?
[13:11:27] <pcw_home> My experience is that almost any newer Intel MB will work
[13:11:31] <norias> i think it is if you don't dive in to it deep
[13:11:40] <SpeedEvil> norias: if you're using an off-the-shelf board, what's to stop people just seeing 'oh - they've used board X' - I will buy that board - and not paying you
[13:11:41] <norias> if it's just a side thing
[13:11:45] <pcw_home> and many AMDs will also
[13:11:53] <SpeedEvil> And that too.
[13:11:53] <norias> sure, some people would do that
[13:12:09] <SpeedEvil> 'guaranteed' - when most motherboards work to a reasonable degree is a questionable thing
[13:12:23] <SpeedEvil> The sane thing is probably to make a nice USB controller.
[13:12:24] <pcw_home> I think you are worrying too much about PC choice
[13:12:28] * roycroft dosn't see a significant market for linuxcnc-specific machines
[13:12:31] <norias> maybe i am
[13:12:49] <SpeedEvil> Which can run most of the hard-realtime algorithms on that, and has full linuxcnc support
[13:12:54] <norias> i think after i build this machine
[13:13:01] <roycroft> i agree about worrying too much about the peecee
[13:13:08] <norias> i'll just make a second controller box
[13:13:12] <norias> stick it on my website
[13:13:15] <norias> and see if someone bites
[13:13:46] <norias> i'd have about $500 in, and if it doesn't sell
[13:13:47] <norias> eh
[13:13:58] <norias> sell the mesa cards to someone
[13:14:02] <norias> and i've got a little computer
[13:14:05] <norias> pretty low risk
[13:14:43] <pcw_home> J1800/1900/2900s work fine
[13:14:45] <pcw_home> AMD A4-6800 works finr
[13:14:46] <pcw_home> Old off lease core-duos work fine
[13:14:48] <pcw_home> G3220,G3258s/I3/I5/I7s H81/H85 work fine
[13:15:39] <pcw_home> if you are doing software stepping you have to be fussier
[13:19:49] <pcw_home> on AMD I meant A68N-5000 is fine
[13:22:32] <zeeshan> pcw_home: sorry for asking this again, i cant find the damn answer in the irc logs
[13:22:51] <zeeshan> encoder inputs require PNP type sensor?
[13:25:06] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, i used pullups on mine
[13:25:46] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: i always get confused between TTL and pull u p
[13:25:46] <zeeshan> lol
[13:26:03] <Tom_itx> mine are open collector output
[13:26:12] <pcw_home> encoder inputs are TTL or differential
[13:26:13] <pcw_home> if jumpered for TTL inputs they have pullups
[13:32:16] <pcw_home> so if you have a sensor connected to an encoder input (and the encoder input is jumpered for TTL mode)
[13:32:18] <pcw_home> the sensor has to pull down (NPN output)
[13:32:19] <pcw_home> On the other hand if these are really slow sensors for a low res encoder, you may be better off using field I/O inputs
[13:32:21] <pcw_home> read at the servo thread rate
[13:33:16] <zeeshan> these are spindle encoder
[13:33:18] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/5xLMEDp.png
[13:33:20] <zeeshan> 100 ppr
[13:33:53] <zeeshan> response time in "light recieved 20us", under light interrupted 100us or less
[13:34:35] <zeeshan> so basically goo upto 60000 rpm
[13:34:49] <zeeshan> er
[13:34:53] <zeeshan> 60000 / 1000
[13:34:58] <zeeshan> sdsalkdjsa 100.
[13:35:17] <zeeshan> must be doing math wrong somewhere
[13:35:43] <Tom_itx> x4 for quadrature
[13:35:44] <pcw_home> Yeah you can do that but the encoder input needs a pulldown for a PNP sensor
[13:36:04] <pcw_home> 400 counts/rev
[13:36:56] <zeeshan> can i hook up to mpg input?
[13:37:09] <pcw_home> no index
[13:37:32] <pcw_home> if you have the PNP sensors just use a pulldown
[13:37:50] <zeeshan> 200 ohm you said right?
[13:39:04] <Tom_itx> i used 1k on mine
[13:39:35] <pcw_home> Tom_itx: those were probably pull-ups
[13:39:40] <Tom_itx> yes
[13:40:01] <Jymmm> Heh, 1K is the magic resistance, works for LEDs too, doesn't matter the color
[13:40:09] <Tom_itx> does the 7i84 have pulldowns on the io pins?
[13:40:30] <pcw_home> The encoder inputs have fixed 2K pullups you have to swamp them
[13:40:36] <Tom_itx> yeah
[13:40:50] <pcw_home> pulldowns on inputs, yess
[13:41:30] <Tom_itx> 22k ... i had made a note of it
[13:41:45] <Tom_itx> just double checking
[13:42:19] <pcw_home> and input threshold is ~50% of Vfield
[13:42:44] <pcw_home> (60% going high, 40% going low)
[13:43:28] <pcw_home> so at 24V thats 14.4V high and 9.6V low
[14:06:24] <zeeshan> can these sensors be wired for differential?
[14:06:46] <zeeshan> since output 1 and output 2 are always the opposite of each other :)
[14:10:39] <zeeshan> i dont think i can use these sensors anyway
[14:10:53] <zeeshan> theyre too slow for a 100 slot trigger wheel
[14:10:57] <zeeshan> at 5000 rpm
[14:12:36] <zeeshan> whoops nm
[14:17:20] <Nick001-shop> <PCW> Have you had a chance to test out the 5i24 card?
[14:24:46] <zeeshan> i think i finally understand this pull up / pull down stuff
[14:25:17] <zeeshan> so currently on the encoder inputs there are pull up resistors between vcc (5v) and the pin.
[14:26:42] <zeeshan> 2K ohms if jumpered in TTL , so i ned to provide a path to ground now to make it at logic state low
[14:26:50] <zeeshan> if i directly connected a wire to ground, it would be a short circuit
[14:27:25] <zeeshan> i dont get why it needs to be a 22k ohm resistor though
[14:29:42] <PetefromTn_> hehe it's magic man...just go with it.
[14:29:46] <zeeshan> haha
[14:31:53] <zeeshan> just to triple confirm........... i would use encoder 5's ground terminal on the 7i77
[14:32:29] <zeeshan> for one leg of the resistor, the other leg would go to qb5, another at qa5, another at idx5
[14:32:53] <PetefromTn_> met my wife for lunch today...SUSHI!! Damn was that delicious.
[14:34:37] <zeeshan> nice
[14:35:55] * jthornton had sushi once in Puerto Rico
[14:37:04] <PetefromTn_> there is a place called HANA of japan not far from her work we never tried before. We got two rolls one called the superman and the other called the New York. Both were shrimp and crabmeat based. Really really yummy and filling but not exactly cheap.
[14:37:12] <Rab> pcw_home, can you PM me contact info? My friend in the Bay is interested in the parts.
[14:44:26] <PetefromTn_> jeez never thought choosing a motor for the lathe would be this difficult hehe
[14:46:50] <jdh> does it have a motor?
[14:47:27] <PetefromTn_> why would I be choosing a motor if it had a motor?
[14:47:56] <PetefromTn_> the machine came to me without a spindle motor, Z axis motor, or Z ballscrew.
[14:49:11] <PetefromTn_> I got information from the manufacturer about the original motor and it apparently came with a three speed 3ph motor and the part number does not even come up in a google search.
[14:49:28] <zeeshan> lol PetefromTn_
[14:49:45] <PetefromTn_> it is a C frame or face mount motor but the motor mount plate does not seem to match any of the standard frame sizes..
[14:49:53] <PetefromTn_> at least not any that I come across...
[14:50:04] <zeeshan> do you have a drawing of the flange for your machine
[14:50:17] <jdh> fortunately, you have a VMC and can make an adapter plate.
[14:50:21] <zeeshan> yea
[14:50:25] <PetefromTn_> I posted the information here before..
[14:50:29] <zeeshan> thats what i had to do on my old manual bridgeport clone
[14:50:40] <zeeshan> and used a standard c frame motor
[14:50:41] <PetefromTn_> yeah I can make anything but I would like to find something that is made to fit
[14:50:49] <zeeshan> why
[14:50:59] <zeeshan> usually that is the expensive route :P
[14:51:03] <PetefromTn_> so I don't have to screw with stuff just bolt the damn thing in..
[14:51:13] <PetefromTn_> yeah probably...
[14:51:24] <PetefromTn_> honestly I am not averse to making mods to the plate
[14:51:28] <zeeshan> electric motors are so stupid expensive new
[14:51:29] <jdh> and, you like making things
[14:51:42] <PetefromTn_> but the plate has a large hole with four bolt holes outside of it...
[14:51:48] <zeeshan> pics would help! :P
[14:55:29] <PetefromTn_> I had some pictures somewhere..
[14:56:01] <PetefromTn_> http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s83/matospeter/IMAG0202_zpswkmpi2qz.jpg
[14:57:55] <PetefromTn_> as you can see the large center hole is pretty big and most of the motor frame sizes are too small for that plate. or the bolt holes do not line up...
[14:59:56] <PetefromTn_> MPM1901FRM381 that is the Custom Servo Motors part number for the original spindle motor.
[15:07:27] <MC500> I just watched the video on LinuxCNC working with a MESA 7I92 Ethernet card which was over a year old, does anyone know if that card is fully supported yet?
[15:11:17] <skunkworks> MC500, mesa ethernet cards are supported 2.7 and on.
[15:12:24] <MC500> all of them? even the 7I76E? that seems like an awsome card..
[15:13:48] <MC500> when is 2.7 going to be released? is it still in beta?
[15:22:56] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: think the bolt circle is 9"?
[15:23:20] <zeeshan> looks very much like a 284T frame motor
[15:25:36] <PetefromTn_> large hole is about 7 1/8" and bolt circle is about 8.5"
[15:26:36] <PetefromTn_> 284 T does not even appear to be a face mount frame?
[15:26:37] <zeeshan> http://www.hydramount.com/products/cmotor.php
[15:26:40] <zeeshan> have you seen that?
[15:27:09] <zeeshan> tc i meant
[15:28:28] <PetefromTn_> in that graph the AJ dimension would need to be the 8.5" and the AK or register would need to be the 7 1/8"...
[15:29:13] <PetefromTn_> I assume the bolt pattter diameter is measured from the center of the bolt holes not the outer edge right?
[15:29:22] <zeeshan> yea center to center
[15:30:23] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is what I figured..
[15:30:50] <PetefromTn_> so like I said the main hole is 7.125 and the bolt circle diameter is 8.5"
[15:31:00] <PetefromTn_> which does not seem to fit any of those frame styles
[15:31:22] <PetefromTn_> and even if I wanted to make it fit I would be looking at making an entirely new plate basically..
[15:32:45] <PetefromTn_> Dunno what frankenstein motor they put in this thing but it does not seem to be anything normal heh
[15:32:55] <zeeshan> show pin
[15:32:57] <zeeshan> er
[15:34:55] <PetefromTn_> notice from the diagram picture that the register ring is outside of the bolt hole pattern whereas my plate is the opposite.
[15:40:01] <zeeshan> custom adapter plate time! :P
[15:40:19] <zeeshan> the benefit of that would be if you ever had to replace it too
[15:40:25] <zeeshan> you can buy a standard motor
[15:40:35] <zeeshan> bridgeport clone is the exact same way :/ weird motor type
[15:41:26] <PetefromTn_> honestly I have found a couple local motors that are the right speed and HP for good prices but none are face mount they are all foot mount. I would need to fabricate a custom mount and try to ensure it is horizontal perfectly....would rather not screw with that if possible.
[16:04:26] <Deejay> gn8
[16:08:57] <PCW> it was probably a rectangular servo motor not a normal frame
[16:10:11] <Tom_itx> MC500, you can load 2.7
[16:11:07] <PetefromTn_> PCW apparently not it was a 3 speed 3phase motor but I cannot find ANYTHING about it online anywhere
[16:12:19] <PCW> Are you sure? lots of spindle motors are rectangular servo frame type
[16:13:05] <Tom_itx> MC500, it's still 'pre': http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/getting-started/index.html#_updating_linuxcnc
[16:13:27] <Tom_itx> you must update from 2.5x to 2.6 first though
[16:13:46] <PetefromTn_> MPM1901FRM381 that is the part number I got from Standard Modern. I honestly would love to find some information about it but so far nothing.
[16:14:41] <PCW> Parker MPM1901 series
[16:16:21] <zeeshan> man that is BAD ASs
[16:16:26] <PCW> 190 is 190 MM
[16:16:30] <zeeshan> i love spindles with servo motors
[16:16:41] <Tom_itx> heh
[16:16:46] <PetefromTn_> it was apparently sold along with the anilam control and equipped with Custom Servo Motors parts
[16:16:55] <zeeshan> that is very cool dude
[16:17:05] <zeeshan> you have crazy indexing abilities :P
[16:17:13] <zeeshan> without the induction motor slip bs
[16:17:14] <PetefromTn_> it would be if the motor was still in there heh
[16:17:28] <PCW> pretty sure Custom Servo Motors was bought out by Parker
[16:17:29] <zeeshan> its prolly gone cause its 1000bux
[16:17:30] <zeeshan> :P
[16:17:52] <PetefromTn_> why would they put an encoder on the spindle if they used a servo for a spindle motor?
[16:18:07] <zeeshan> prolly external edcnoder
[16:18:21] <PetefromTn_> the spindle has a really nice timing belt driven encoder
[16:18:33] <PetefromTn_> on a servo motor?
[16:19:05] <zeeshan> im talking out of my butt :)
[16:20:22] <PetefromTn_> I dunno I am sure the thing COULD have had a servomotor for the spindle but I seriously doubt that is what I will be putting back into the machine. If that is the case it would explain the non standard motor mount plate but not the spindle mounted encoder
[16:20:51] <PCW> It may have been induction motor (but check the mounting Ill bet thats the frame)
[16:20:54] <PetefromTn_> I will be lucky if I can afford to put back a quality 7.5hp low RPM AC 3phase motor and drive
[16:21:27] <PetefromTn_> I have no information on the original motor frame size other than it MAY have been made by parker as you suggest.
[16:22:15] <PCW> you have the bolt circle and 8" servo motor PDFs
[16:22:36] <PetefromTn_> I do? where?
[16:23:59] <Tom_itx> the bolt circle is on the machine isn't it?
[16:24:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah the large circle hole is 7.125" and the bolt circle is 8.5"
[16:26:09] <PetefromTn_> just called my contact at Parker servomotors I contacted about the axis servo motors they are apparently going to be calling me back here. I hate to contact them because I know I will probably NOT be buying anything from them but they may at least be able to tell me something about the original motor.
[16:27:35] <MC500> I am running a cnc program in a loop 100 times, is there any way to see what the count is?
[16:27:59] <Tom_L> add a loop counter?
[16:28:12] <PetefromTn_> apparently that .pdf from parker does not contain the model number of my original motor..
[16:28:13] <Tom_L> in the program somewhere increment something and display it
[16:28:13] <MC500> where would that display?
[16:29:55] <Tom_L> on the right column possibly wiht pyvcp?
[16:30:11] <Tom_L> haven't tried it...
[16:33:24] <Tom_L> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/gladevcp.html#_persistent_variables_in_gladevcp
[16:33:27] <Tom_L> possibly.
[16:36:32] <PCW> 190 frame = 7.087" hole 8.464" bolt circle
[16:36:50] <PetefromTn_> that sound about exactly right..
[16:37:46] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/A06B-0853-B190-3000-GE-FANUC-AC-SERVO-SPINDLE-REMANUFACTURED-/360978109470?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item540bf8d41e NICE AND CHEAP!!
[16:38:15] <Tom_L> MC500, display the variable you use to increment the loop
[16:39:00] <Tom_L> you'd think there would be an easy way...
[16:39:32] <PCW> probably the original would be a bit more HP than you can comfortably run
[16:39:47] <PetefromTn_> apparently 7.5 HP
[16:39:55] <PetefromTn_> according to the nameplate
[16:40:09] <PetefromTn_> what makes you say that?
[16:40:20] <malcom2073> Heh, price to pixel ratio on that auction is funky
[16:41:26] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONTROL-TECHNIQUES-190EZB301CAAAA-AC-SERVO-MOTOR-3000-RPM-NEW-/321577096905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4adf7d16c9
[16:41:33] <PCW> just because most of the servo motors in that size are 12 or more HP
[16:41:35] <PetefromTn_> another high priced option
[16:42:00] <Tom_L> that one looks wicked
[16:42:16] <PetefromTn_> I am hoping that the narrow square frame type of the original motor will not preclude my inserting a typical 3 phase face frame mount motor in there...
[16:42:23] <PCW> probably about 20 HP
[16:43:16] <Tom_L> stall 43.2 Nm
[16:43:30] <PetefromTn_> I suppose If that happens I will be forced to make a custom mount that holds the motor 180 degrees the other way
[16:43:34] <PCW> If it was a induction motor, it would have a lower rating so it probably was an induction motor in the frame
[16:44:38] <PetefromTn_> that part number I posted is the one I got from the Manufacturer.. I will be hearing hopefully from Parker here soon and I will know the particulars of the motor.. all I know is it was 7.5HP
[16:45:51] <PetefromTn_> it would be my luck to buy a lathe that had an uber expensive servomotor in it that has been removed. going back with one is basically out of the question as far as price is concerned.
[16:47:16] <PCW> it likely was a induction motor, just wounds on a a rectangular 190 mm frame
[16:47:21] <PetefromTn_> I am going to take some quick measurements of the motor housing area to see what I am up against here. Looks like I will absolutely have to modify that mounting plate which is not really a big deal but I was hoping to be able to just buy a nice AC motor and vector drive and be done with it.
[16:49:36] <PetefromTn_> shit...
[16:49:54] <PetefromTn_> the rectangular opening where the motor goes in is only about 9" wide...
[16:50:19] <PetefromTn_> almost ANY 3 phase induction motor I buy will be wider than that I am sure..
[16:50:30] <Tom_itx> need a bit of room around it for cooling too
[16:51:08] <PetefromTn_> well actually there is a LOT of room inside there but the openining you have to stick it thru is only 9" wide
[16:51:47] <SpeedEvil> Grease the edges of the hole.
[16:52:14] <PetefromTn_> fortunately there is an enclosure on the headstock side of the machine that houses the spindle encoder and some other things that is more than long enough to mount the motor opposite to it's typical mounting
[16:52:22] <PetefromTn_> Lemme snap some photos .
[16:58:18] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/eIIs1UI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eGsCj8a.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TG6WLPR.jpg
[16:59:19] <PetefromTn_> you can see the large enclosure outside of the rectangular hole where the motor goes.
[16:59:47] <zeeshan> HEHEhe something intriguing about watching the serial port for communication
[16:59:52] <PetefromTn_> you can also see that there are sliders to allow you to easily insert the motor and then load the belts and adjust it to tension without it falling thru
[16:59:58] <zeeshan> buncha 0s and 1s :)
[17:01:47] <PetefromTn_> you can see the lower rectangular hole has four bolt holes around the edge that is where the mount plate goes.
[17:03:20] <PetefromTn_> perhaps I should just take that plate and make a weldment on it horizontally that places the motor outside of the hole and locates the motors shaft in the same plane it would be if it were inside the hole.
[17:34:52] <zeeshan> how do i post stuff on wiki.linuxcnc.org ?
[17:35:10] <mozmck> login and start typing!
[17:35:38] <zeeshan> i really feel retarded but i dont see the login on this link: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl
[17:36:06] <zeeshan> oh i see it now., under preferences
[18:00:34] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: where is the latest rtai stuff memleak did?
[18:31:41] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[18:31:49] <zeeshan> someone give me a file host!
[18:31:57] <zeeshan> so i dont have to upload code like this lol
[18:37:11] <mozmck> zeeshan: I've seen several wiki pages with attachments - maybe you could look and see how they did that?
[18:37:39] <jthornton> you just "upload" the file to the wiki
[18:38:01] <zeeshan> i also have a zip file for another vfd
[18:39:35] <zeeshan> i hate uploading to the internet to a random spot
[18:39:37] <zeeshan> cause links then get broken
[18:40:38] <jthornton> random?
[18:43:24] <zeeshan> random to me is a site that dies off after a couple years :)
[18:44:36] <mozmck> the wiki hasn't died off yet
[18:44:39] <zeeshan> upload:nfx9000rtu.zip
[18:44:45] <zeeshan> sorry i wasnt talking about the wiki
[18:44:48] <mozmck> :)
[18:44:54] <zeeshan> i didnt realize you could upload directly to it
[18:45:24] <zeeshan> there is no overwrite check though
[18:54:17] <PCW> I overwrote a check a few times...
[18:59:25] <zeeshan> okay i think this turned out better
[18:59:27] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[18:59:32] <zeeshan> the upload really helped!
[19:06:17] <zeeshan> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7500/16309734886_42a18d9ca9_o.jpg
[19:06:22] <zeeshan> anyone know what kind of fitting this is?
[19:06:30] <zeeshan> it almost looks like a bubble flare from a car's brake lines
[19:06:34] <zeeshan> this is all over my lubricator stuff
[19:07:24] <Tom_itx> looks like a standard compression fitting
[19:07:40] <Tom_itx> or at least one of those should work there
[19:08:01] <Tom_itx> like on your refrigerator water line
[19:08:01] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7471/16335687835_2247afe9d8_k.jpg
[19:08:08] <zeeshan> i thought it was a bubble flare
[19:08:11] <zeeshan> till i saw this thing..
[19:08:32] <Tom_itx> dunno
[19:23:02] <CaptHindsight> moz
[19:23:22] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: I'll get you the link, it's on the forums
[19:30:45] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI
[19:31:41] <roycroft> so for you folks with a 7x12 bandsaw, i was talking to a guy in the parts department at grizzly today, finding out when my replacement gear would ship
[19:31:54] <roycroft> (it was waiting at my door when i got home, so the call was premature)
[19:32:10] <roycroft> he told me they've sold twice as many steel replacement gears as they've sold 7x12 saws
[19:32:21] <roycroft> and the purchasers are not repeat customers for that part
[19:32:43] <roycroft> so they are selling them for all the other brands that still ship with the brass gear
[19:33:17] <roycroft> http://www.roycroft.us/7x12Gear.jpeg
[19:33:30] <roycroft> in case you didn't see before, that's the gear i'm talking about
[19:40:44] <kengu> what kind of filter you have in your laser cutter exhausts?
[19:41:13] <kengu> tenants complaining the smoke from cutting acrylic
[19:42:33] <LeelooMinai> kengu: Just wait a bit more - the smoke will eventually kill them
[19:43:23] <kengu> yeah but some officials also noted the smoke..
[19:43:36] <kengu> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?202214-Lasercutter-fume-exhaust-filters-and-cleaning-them
[19:43:51] <kengu> (not my topic)
[20:03:21] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: thanks. I did see there was a linuxcnc branch in the shabbyx/rtai repository, do you know if that's the same one?
[20:03:38] <mozmck> Looks like the last commit in both places is the same....
[20:28:19] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: I wouldn't count on the shabbyx/rtai tree
[20:28:32] <mozmck> ok
[20:29:10] <CaptHindsight> https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI use this if you want support or possible answers to questions
[20:32:07] <mozmck> ok, thanks!
[20:37:58] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_:
[20:38:01] <zeeshan> i was looking for you!
[20:38:51] <PetefromTn_> hehe OK
[20:39:04] <zeeshan> have you used / do you have end mill holders?
[20:39:10] <PetefromTn_> sure
[20:39:21] <zeeshan> ive always used er collets for holding end mills
[20:39:31] <zeeshan> today i found out that anything larger than 1/2" for r32
[20:39:32] <PetefromTn_> I use both
[20:39:38] <zeeshan> er32 is askin for trouble at high feeds
[20:39:42] <zeeshan> in aluminum
[20:39:55] <zeeshan> i've nevver ever used an end mill holder before
[20:40:04] <zeeshan> is the bore precisely reamed for the end mill shank?
[20:40:09] <zeeshan> and you use a set screw to lock it in place?
[20:40:59] <PetefromTn_> yeah generally unless it is shrink to fit
[20:41:56] <zeeshan> http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders-CAT40-End-Mill-Holders/c23_25_43/p16434/CAT40-5/8-END-MILL-TOOL-HOLDER-.625-2.5/product_info.html
[20:41:58] <zeeshan> for example this thing
[20:42:12] <zeeshan> i see a set screw on there
[20:42:31] <skunkworks> make sure the mills have flats for the set screws. (or grind them in...)
[20:42:36] <PetefromTn_> yup I have several like that
[20:42:41] <zeeshan> are they accurate?
[20:42:55] <zeeshan> i really thought a collet had more clamping power
[20:43:10] <PetefromTn_> yeah I think so but I have not really gone crazy checking them with a DTI
[20:43:45] <zeeshan> whats the point of er32 tools then?
[20:43:48] <zeeshan> for a cnc?
[20:44:00] <zeeshan> im trying to decide whether to buy a bunch of er32 stuff
[20:44:01] <skunkworks> we have used both - make sure you tighten them hard enough - they will be fine..
[20:44:03] <zeeshan> or just grab end mill holders
[20:44:09] <PetefromTn_> I have never had a problem with them on any of the machines I have run
[20:44:26] <zeeshan> skunkworks: the collets?
[20:44:37] <PetefromTn_> if you REALLY REALLY kill them there is always a possibility of pull out with any collet based holding
[20:44:46] <zeeshan> yea
[20:44:49] <zeeshan> thats what guys are talkin about
[20:44:55] <zeeshan> in aluminum the 2 fluter pulls out
[20:45:49] <PetefromTn_> I have never really experienced that with my ER32 or ER20 collets...but I don't run the piss out of them either.
[20:45:54] <skunkworks> poppy - they are not tightening them enough.. ER 32
[20:45:54] <skunkworks>
[20:45:54] <skunkworks> slotted
[20:45:54] <skunkworks>
[20:45:54] <skunkworks> 100 ft/lbs
[20:46:15] <skunkworks> thats right - 100ft/lbs...
[20:46:33] <zeeshan> how the heck do you do that with a 9" wrench
[20:46:33] <zeeshan> haha
[20:46:47] <PetefromTn_> put a pipe on the end LOL
[20:46:50] <zeeshan> hahaha
[20:47:16] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/wrenchscale.JPG
[20:47:30] <zeeshan> jeez
[20:47:44] <PetefromTn_> seriously tho even in a goof where I ran the cutter thru too deep a cut I never had one pull out but I am kinda used to tightening the shit out of things...heh
[20:48:16] <LeelooMinai_> So what is a "pull out"? When the tools goes out of the holder or what?
[20:48:33] <zeeshan> im thinking of grabbing: 5x er32 holders
[20:48:44] <PetefromTn_> yeah the shape of the cutter wants to pull it down out of the holder....
[20:48:54] <zeeshan> 1/2"(x2) 3/8 5/16 1/4
[20:48:56] <zeeshan> collets
[20:49:04] <zeeshan> and then one end mill holder for 3/4"
[20:49:09] <zeeshan> and a shell mill holder
[20:49:23] <zeeshan> that should get me started i hope
[20:49:33] <skunkworks> zeeshan, nice job getting the machine moving!
[20:49:40] <zeeshan> thanks skunkworks!
[20:50:08] <PetefromTn_> personally I love the collet holders.. they are so useful.
[20:50:34] <zeeshan> lemme show you something.
[20:50:38] <zeeshan> b rb
[20:55:17] <PetefromTn_> Hey ROB!!
[20:56:13] <Rob___> Hi Allm,
[20:56:38] <Rob___> Sam reminded me that IRC exists :)
[20:56:54] <skunkworks> Oh - Rob as in new TP rob!!
[20:57:24] <skunkworks> Did you get my last email about the splits?
[20:57:50] <Rob___> Yeah, I just ran your high-speed config and saw that error
[20:57:52] <Rob___> so close :)
[20:58:00] <skunkworks> (I cannot live without irc...)
[20:58:28] <skunkworks> Rob___, doesn't seem to effect motion (no vel/acc violations..)
[21:03:32] <PetefromTn_> Well I have been doing some research on the CNC lathe motor options I have
[21:03:47] <PetefromTn_> wanting to stay with the 7.5HP that it came with if possible.
[21:03:54] <zeeshan> is it common to use mt3 drills w/ cat40
[21:04:18] <PetefromTn_> like I posted earlier some photos of the opening where the original motor went
[21:04:38] <PetefromTn_> never heard of using morse taper drills in a mill really
[21:05:18] <PetefromTn_> anyways it seems like the 213 TC frame motors MIGHT just fit in the original location.
[21:05:31] <PetefromTn_> I would have to modify or machine a new mounting plate but that is no big deal
[21:06:02] <PetefromTn_> the folks at Parker tried to call me back but somehow I missed the call and it went right to voicemail unfortunately
[21:06:31] <PetefromTn_> I would like to know about the servo motor they chose for it and what kind of motor shaft torque they were using.
[21:07:02] <PetefromTn_> I am fairly confident that a 7.5HP induction motor with a reduction ratio should be all the power I will ever need on a lathe of this size.
[21:07:42] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16335979011/in/photostream/
[21:07:43] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321172469980?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Kinda like the looks of this one.
[21:08:43] <PetefromTn_> it is inverter duty continuous duty rated and if I do some slight trimming of the hole in the base it should fit in the original location.
[21:08:49] <zeeshan> that looks nice
[21:09:12] <PetefromTn_> yeah and it is not terribly expensive
[21:09:18] <zeeshan> thats too expensiv elol
[21:09:19] <PetefromTn_> I asked about a shipping quote
[21:09:25] * zeeshan wouldnt pay more than 60$!
[21:09:29] * zeeshan is cheap
[21:09:52] <PetefromTn_> I would love to be able to get the motor shipped here for $300 or less
[21:10:02] <PetefromTn_> I have some paypal money burning a hole heh
[21:10:59] <zeeshan> buy me a shank for ths face mill!
[21:11:01] <PetefromTn_> if I can get the 7.5hp motor for under 3 bills I can probably get the drive for around $700 or so making the power side of things just at a grand.
[21:11:15] <PetefromTn_> better yet send it to me I have a shank that will fit it LOL
[21:11:21] <zeeshan> hahah
[21:11:22] <zeeshan> damn it
[21:11:26] <zeeshan> i have all this r8 shit
[21:11:26] <PetefromTn_> what size is it
[21:11:27] <zeeshan> thats completely uselkess
[21:11:33] <PetefromTn_> sell it off
[21:11:34] <zeeshan> looks like a .75 shell mill holder
[21:11:42] <PetefromTn_> LOL thats what I have
[21:11:51] <zeeshan> i need two of em
[21:11:52] <PetefromTn_> I have two .75" shell mill holders
[21:12:11] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7479/16336867522_e0a3f1350c_h.jpg
[21:12:16] <zeeshan> ive been DIEING to use this one
[21:12:19] <zeeshan> since it has round inserts
[21:12:20] <PetefromTn_> one of them is holding my DIY stainless bodies fly cutter
[21:12:40] <PetefromTn_> what is that other one above it?
[21:12:51] <zeeshan> the iso40 holder?
[21:12:54] <zeeshan> thats a clarkson autolock
[21:13:00] <PetefromTn_> oh
[21:13:18] <zeeshan> boring heads use a shell mill holder too i think
[21:13:19] <zeeshan> i need 3!
[21:13:55] <PetefromTn_> if I can get the motor power completed for a grand I can probably get the axis drives working for another grand or so... I already have most of the PC side of stuff and I have the 5i25/7i77
[21:14:07] <zeeshan> you have axis motors?
[21:14:11] <PetefromTn_> no they have a special threaded one
[21:14:16] <zeeshan> oh yea youre right
[21:14:29] <PetefromTn_> no I am going to buy motors and matching drives like I did before
[21:14:47] <PetefromTn_> MIGHT even try some of those closed loop steppers in a large size.
[21:15:04] <PetefromTn_> if I do that I would need to swap the 7i77 for a 7i76 somehow.
[21:16:38] <zeeshan> dont you want pwm or analog output
[21:16:41] <zeeshan> for closed loop
[21:16:43] <zeeshan> not step/dir
[21:17:25] <PetefromTn_> I would rather have closed loop servos but after watching some videos about those closed loop steppers that looks pretty impressive.
[21:18:03] <PetefromTn_> I don't know shit about steppers tho and not sure you even needed the 7i76 or not with those closed loop drives
[21:18:11] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16311796716/in/photostream/
[21:18:14] <zeeshan> whats the best way to hold these
[21:18:30] <zeeshan> the middle 3
[21:18:41] <zeeshan> they all have straight shank
[21:18:45] <zeeshan> with aflat
[21:18:50] <zeeshan> im thinking end mill holder?
[21:18:50] <PetefromTn_> either a big endmill holder or a collet chuck I guess
[21:19:11] <zeeshan> i dont even know what the middle tool is for.
[21:19:16] <zeeshan> with the yellow inserts
[21:19:28] <zeeshan> the chamfer one i want to use
[21:19:46] <t12_> face mill?
[21:20:05] <zeeshan> lemme look closer. might have markings
[21:20:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah looks like some sort of shell mill/face mill kinda thin
[21:20:49] <PetefromTn_> what kind is that silver one on the R8 shank
[21:25:26] <LeelooMinai> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yven682L_8I <- Scary stuff:)
[21:26:54] <zeeshan> 2 of the chamfring mills are 3/4" shank
[21:27:11] <zeeshan> the one diamond shape insert is 1"
[21:27:14] <zeeshan> all have flats..
[21:27:20] <zeeshan> so meant for end mill holders?
[21:30:56] <zeeshan> last q
[21:31:00] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16151554189/in/photostream/
[21:31:02] <zeeshan> how would you hold these
[21:31:06] <zeeshan> they dont even have a flat on em
[21:31:07] <PetefromTn_> man I can't wait for this CNC lathe to be working..
[21:31:13] <zeeshan> meant for shrinkfit holders?
[21:31:48] <PetefromTn_> they're just insert endmills no?
[21:31:55] <zeeshan> yes
[21:31:57] <zeeshan> but no flats on em
[21:32:08] <zeeshan> apx3000 series
[21:32:09] <PetefromTn_> you can grind a flat pretty easily if you wnat to
[21:32:15] <zeeshan> that seems like a crime
[21:32:16] <zeeshan> :(
[21:32:25] <PetefromTn_> why?
[21:32:41] <PetefromTn_> we do it all the time a lot of endmills do not come with flats
[21:32:49] <zeeshan> end mill that you can throw away yea
[21:32:53] <zeeshan> but not an indexable tool :P
[21:32:56] <zeeshan> just feels weird
[21:33:07] <PetefromTn_> why would you throw it away
[21:38:01] <zeeshan> will mill a flat :P
[21:38:51] <PetefromTn_> some hard shit.. easier to put it on the surface grinder in a collet fixture and grind a flat...
[21:39:03] <zeeshan> i dont have a surface grinder :P
[21:40:54] <PetefromTn_> maybe setup a little toolpost grinder on your lathe and hold the bit in the lathe...
[21:41:26] <zeeshan> i can use maybe the school surface grinder
[21:41:45] <zeeshan> tooling is going to cost a lot :/
[21:41:52] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is...
[21:42:04] <zeeshan> the 2 face mills i know i want working
[21:42:08] <zeeshan> without a face mill, game over!
[21:42:26] <PetefromTn_> heh I don't have a facemill
[21:42:31] <zeeshan> !
[21:42:37] <zeeshan> flycutter/face mill
[21:42:40] <zeeshan> you need something
[21:42:50] <PetefromTn_> yeah I have a shop built flycutter
[21:42:53] <PetefromTn_> works great
[21:43:01] <zeeshan> i bought these cheapo ones
[21:43:06] <zeeshan> that take the hand ground holders
[21:43:11] <zeeshan> 1/2" shank
[21:43:17] <PetefromTn_> mounted on a 3/4 shaft shell mill holder
[21:43:20] <zeeshan> i think i can throw those in a collet.
[21:45:36] <bobo_> zeeshan Hyd fittings try -Adapt All .
[21:45:48] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15717807143/in/photostream/
[21:45:53] <zeeshan> can you tell what kind of shank that is?
[21:45:56] <zeeshan> looks like morese taper 2
[21:46:29] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-Arrow-500-CNC-Vertical-Machining-Center-/191487880510?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276
[21:46:51] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: buying another mill? :D
[21:46:52] <zeeshan> haha
[21:46:57] <zeeshan> hi bobo
[21:46:58] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[21:47:02] <Tom_itx> not sure why you'd use a MT2 for a mill holder
[21:47:14] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: that is a drill chuck
[21:47:16] <PetefromTn_> thought it was a drill chuck
[21:47:23] <zeeshan> dork
[21:47:32] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16311793816/in/photostream/
[21:47:35] <zeeshan> i need to organize this
[21:47:39] <zeeshan> see my big end mills?
[21:47:42] <zeeshan> they were new old stock
[21:47:51] <zeeshan> i soaked them in paint tinner
[21:47:55] <zeeshan> to gasoline
[21:47:58] <zeeshan> that shit is not coming off
[21:48:01] <Tom_itx> couldn't tell from the photo angle
[21:48:08] <Tom_itx> but i still couldn't see why
[21:48:49] <Tom_itx> pickling
[21:48:52] <bobo_> Zeeshan : www.adaptall.com
[21:49:08] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-Arrow-500-CNC-Vertical-Machining-Center/151419439109?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27673%26meid%3Dba4bf0146e864fe39baaff63990af3bd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D191487880510&rt=nc PRETTY!!
[21:49:40] <Tom_itx> pete's on an arrow hunt
[21:49:58] <PetefromTn_> I could really use that nice keyboard mount on that one..
[21:50:07] <Tom_itx> make one
[21:50:17] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: do you ever need a boring head anymore?
[21:50:19] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[21:50:32] <PetefromTn_> actually yeah but I sold mine like a dumbshit
[21:50:38] <zeeshan> really?
[21:50:40] <zeeshan> cant interpolate?
[21:50:42] <PetefromTn_> the machine is amazingly accurate
[21:50:45] <Tom_itx> along with his manual lathe
[21:50:50] <PetefromTn_> and interpolated holes are tight
[21:50:59] <zeeshan> so why do you need it then?
[21:51:02] <zeeshan> for deep holes?
[21:51:09] <PetefromTn_> but boring a deep hole is really needed a head
[21:51:10] <bobo_> Pete Mom said you can't buy any more mills untill the changer is fully working !
[21:51:18] <PetefromTn_> heh
[21:51:20] <zeeshan> okay i wont get an adapter for it yet
[21:51:21] <PetefromTn_> I hear ya
[21:51:38] <XXCoder> no more heads for ya!
[21:51:52] <PetefromTn_> Connor bought a REALLY REALLY big boring head that is too big for his machine and I tried to talk him out of it LOL
[21:52:22] <PetefromTn_> isn't that a pretty Cincinatti arrow 500
[21:52:32] <Tom_itx> that last one looks almost new
[21:52:38] <Tom_itx> wonder why they're selling it
[21:52:39] <PetefromTn_> yeah it does
[21:52:49] <PetefromTn_> mine is clean but that thing is spankin'
[21:53:00] <Tom_itx> the shop looks awfully clean too
[21:53:14] <Tom_itx> but then our shop was pretty clean
[21:53:19] <PetefromTn_> that is a great price for a machine like that..
[21:53:42] <Tom_itx> he had one he sold because it had windows on it
[21:53:50] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-CAT-40-Shank-Adapters-1-7-8-For-1-1-2-18-Boring-Head-V-FLANGE-CHUCK-NEW-/350267091420
[21:53:53] <zeeshan> do you see free shipping ?
[21:54:33] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgbgBl6HkAE
[21:54:34] <Tom_itx> free Expedited Shipping
[21:54:46] <zeeshan> damn it.
[21:54:50] <zeeshan> i need 50bux
[21:55:08] <PetefromTn_> thats cheap
[21:55:49] <PetefromTn_> that is the exact same machine I have...
[21:56:19] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: you hold your taps in a collet?
[21:56:22] * Tom_itx closes PetefromTn_'s brouser.. it's embarrasing to see drool from a man's chin
[21:56:29] <zeeshan> ahah
[21:56:55] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[21:57:18] <PetefromTn_> I REALLY need to figure out spindle orient here so I can get the toolchanger working
[21:57:30] <Tom_itx> so what you waitin for?
[21:57:51] <PetefromTn_> don't even know where to begin with it really.
[21:58:06] <Tom_itx> start with the spindle index mark
[21:58:15] <Tom_itx> tell it to stop there
[21:58:22] <PetefromTn_> how?
[21:58:23] <Tom_itx> on an M6
[21:58:31] <Tom_itx> that's the mystery
[21:58:49] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: you already have everything hooked up
[21:58:57] <Tom_itx> i was gonna look into the innards of the M6
[21:58:58] <zeeshan> setup your pid loop for spindle :P
[21:59:30] <PetefromTn_> OK I need to figure out how to do that.
[21:59:58] <Tom_itx> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/orient.9.html
[22:02:03] <bobo_> Pete Laptop to the mill time . don't forget camera . and change your shirt too.
[22:02:16] <zeeshan> who wears a tshirt in the garage
[22:02:18] <zeeshan> i work in my boxers
[22:02:23] <PetefromTn_> Hey man I am up for it..
[22:02:41] <PetefromTn_> it seems like we would need to add some components there.
[22:03:59] <PetefromTn_> I often work out there in sweatpants and tee shirt heh
[22:04:09] <PetefromTn_> my wife thinks I am crazy
[22:04:16] <PetefromTn_> but I often work late into the night
[22:04:26] <PetefromTn_> I am NOT a morning person
[22:04:58] <bobo_> Zeeshan did you notice the adapt all web site ? yet ?
[22:05:41] <Tom_L> http://www.linuxcnc.org/lucid/index.php/english/forum/10-advanced-configuration/26073-spindle-orientation
[22:07:49] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#sec:M19
[22:09:14] <norias> hi
[22:09:35] <PetefromTn_> it sounds as if all of the components are already in master
[22:09:36] <norias> finally "requested" the purchase of my hardware for linuxcnc today at work
[22:09:51] <norias> i have a feeling IT is going to make this difficult
[22:09:55] <pcw_home> wheres the example hal file that uses spindle orient? :-(
[22:09:57] <pcw_home> seems like in addition to orient you need a mux comp to select who controls the spindle velocity
[22:10:07] <Tom_L> good q pcw
[22:10:38] <pcw_home> (PID or motion)
[22:11:21] <PetefromTn_> do you guys think you can help me try to get it setup on the machine? I am not too good with the programming end.
[22:11:43] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
[22:11:51] <Tom_L> is that part of it as well?
[22:12:09] <pcw_home> yes
[22:12:30] <Tom_L> wow that's got a load of parameters
[22:12:33] <zeeshan> 2/j33
[22:14:07] <Tom_L> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SpindleOrientation
[22:14:35] <pcw_home> the orient component looks like a helper comp but theres still a lot of hal wiring
[22:14:37] <pcw_home> (not to mention the tool change logic which probably needs a custom comp or CL)
[22:15:34] <PetefromTn_> I think Connor already has a working toolchanger program setup and simulated based on my machines inputs and outputs
[22:15:43] <PetefromTn_> he was just unsure about how to orient
[22:16:07] <PetefromTn_> if we could get orient to work it would be a big step forward and we could move on to trying his information.
[22:16:44] <pcw_home> Ahh some example code (but it seems to be pre- orient comp so maybe more complicated)
[22:18:02] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/emc2hal.html
[22:20:03] <Tom_L> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/examples_spindle.html
[22:20:09] <Tom_L> probably a bit newer
[22:20:56] <Tom_L> that's more for sync motion i think
[22:21:24] <PetefromTn_> I do need to implement the spindle at speed component on my machine.
[22:22:09] <PetefromTn_> Connor made a PyVCP setup with sliders to show spindle speed and load but the spindle speed meter only shows commanded speed right now.
[22:23:23] <PetefromTn_> sounds like it is setup to disconnect the spindle speed control during the orient procedure and switch to the PID component for orient
[22:23:53] <Tom_L> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control
[22:24:45] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlW1s2BNixo Robh's VMC kicks some ass it seems LOL...
[22:25:02] <Tom_L> PetefromTn_ that's somewhat what i was saying a few days ago about the M6 command
[22:25:35] <PetefromTn_> what is
[22:25:36] <Tom_L> wasn't sure how to implement it but something like call a sub to spin a slow speed and stop at the index mark
[22:25:53] <Tom_L> then return to the M6
[22:27:30] <zeeshan> connor!~
[22:27:36] <zeeshan> since when did your name become tiffany
[22:27:39] <Connor> Yo
[22:27:41] <zeeshan> :-)
[22:28:24] <PetefromTn_> :D
[22:28:42] <zeeshan> in the trailer?
[22:28:47] <Connor> On the wife's laptop.
[22:28:50] <Connor> still in the RV
[22:29:19] <Tom_L> at least you're not paying campground fees
[22:29:36] <PetefromTn_> Connor Hey man you would be proud of me...I figured out how to get my machine converted from Metric to Imperial with some help here...
[22:30:05] <Connor> Yea, I saw something about that on Facebook the other day. Contracts
[22:30:20] <PetefromTn_> yeah man it is SO much nicer this way.
[22:30:21] <Connor> Tom_L: No, but, renting the RV for $130.00 a nite is not nice
[22:30:37] <PetefromTn_> holy crap thats expensive
[22:30:52] <Tom_L> a hotel would be cheaper
[22:30:53] <zeeshan> what
[22:30:57] <zeeshan> you could be at a hotel
[22:30:57] <zeeshan> lol
[22:33:53] <PetefromTn_> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/emc2hal.html this seems to have the pins and hal stuff for orient..
[22:34:01] <zeeshan> http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
[22:34:02] <PetefromTn_> how does the M19 work?
[22:34:05] <zeeshan> this website is so CHEAP
[22:34:23] <PetefromTn_> is the M6 macro including that or would you have to call it.
[22:35:06] <PetefromTn_> wow that is cheap..
[22:35:17] <zeeshan> type cat40 in search
[22:35:34] <zeeshan> er collet chucks $45
[22:35:37] <zeeshan> 32.
[22:35:40] <PetefromTn_> they got a decent looking replaceable jaws 8" three jaw lathe chuck
[22:35:41] <Connor> Tom_L Not with 5 dogs.
[22:35:44] <PetefromTn_> for cheap
[22:35:51] <zeeshan> connor why do you have 5 dogs
[22:36:03] <PetefromTn_> actually some hotels allow dogs..
[22:36:05] <Connor> zeeshan: Because we don't have childreen?
[22:36:14] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/hardy/dapper/index.php/english/forum/30-cnc-machines/27634-brother-tc-211?start=250#51172
[22:36:42] <Connor> Just way too much trouble with the dogs.. we have RV setup with temp fencing that allows the dogs access to the back yard.. much easier thay trying to take 5 dogs outside all the time.
[22:37:03] <Connor> plus, I'm very close to the house so we can keep a eye on what's going on.
[22:37:13] <PetefromTn_> man I swear I came within a hair's breath of buying one of those Brother drill and tap machines.. they kick ass.
[22:37:25] <Tom_L> pete, read that last post
[22:37:30] <Tom_L> for better understanding
[22:37:41] <Connor> PetefromTn_: I have to install kitchen cabinets in the near future.
[22:38:53] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, "from Metric to Imperial" is nothing to be proud of ;)
[22:39:35] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is...
[22:39:38] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[22:39:42] <LeelooMinai> It's called "deevolution" :)
[22:39:53] <PetefromTn_> Connor... I have installed TONS of kitchen cabinets LOL
[22:40:04] <PetefromTn_> it's called a step in the right direction
[22:40:35] <LeelooMinai> 1 feet ahead, 1 meter back
[22:40:42] <LeelooMinai> foot*
[22:41:53] <PetefromTn_> yeah well like I said EVERY machine I am used to running in the PRO shops I have been working in is setup this way...so I am used to it.
[22:42:05] <PetefromTn_> all you backwards people will have to just deal LOL
[22:43:29] <PetefromTn_> do you think we can try to add the spindle-orient stuff to my setup and try it?
[22:44:35] <Tom_L> pete, read andy's post on it... it's informative
[22:44:37] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, what are you trying to do?
[22:45:06] <PetefromTn_> like zeeshan said since I already have spindle feedback working and it seems to work great we just need to add the PID loop setup. I dunno how M6 works but I would assume it would need to slow the spindle to less than say 100 RPM and then switch to the orient PID and start looking for the index pulse
[22:45:14] <PetefromTn_> I did read it..
[22:45:43] <PetefromTn_> The_Ball SPindle orient for toolchange on a Cincinatti Arrow 500 Vertical Machining center running under linuxCNC
[22:45:44] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai:
[22:45:47] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: updates?
[22:46:31] <LeelooMinai> Not really - I need to wait for more money to move ahead:/
[22:47:03] <LeelooMinai> Good news is that all is left is VFD really.
[22:47:09] <zeeshan> you got the spindle?
[22:47:30] <LeelooMinai> It's in the mail still, but maybe 1-2 weeks.
[22:47:57] <LeelooMinai> In the meantime I have been doing some EE project/PCB designs
[22:48:40] <zeeshan> once you get the drive
[22:48:48] <zeeshan> pretty much need to wire it up and imachine? :D
[22:49:15] <LeelooMinai> In theory - ne3ed to buy that clamping set maybe too.
[22:50:17] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, ah is that where you need to move the spindle to X degrees for the toolchange
[22:50:27] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[22:50:35] <PetefromTn_> that is next on the hit list
[22:50:41] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, and you are doing this with a VFD?
[22:50:44] <PetefromTn_> before I can attempt a toolchange
[22:50:49] <PetefromTn_> trying to
[22:51:02] <PetefromTn_> Hitachi WJ200-110LF sensorless vector drive
[22:51:32] <The_Ball> cool, I have no experience with it
[22:52:00] <PetefromTn_> well WHY NOT!! ;)
[22:52:18] <LeelooMinai> Tool changing requires some specialized holders, right?
[22:52:30] <PetefromTn_> cat40
[22:52:34] <norias> hmm
[22:52:38] <norias> not necessarily
[22:52:53] <LeelooMinai> Well, unless you make a robot:)
[22:52:57] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: nahh
[22:52:58] <norias> naw
[22:53:06] <norias> i saw a toolchanger setup
[22:53:07] <zeeshan> ive seen some tool changers where the table holds all the tools
[22:53:12] <norias> made for an r-8 spindle
[22:53:19] <PetefromTn_> that CDC tools website has Cat40 boring heads with the shank for only $88!!
[22:53:19] <norias> at a local tool and die shop
[22:53:21] <toastydeath> r8 sux
[22:53:30] <LeelooMinai> Ok, but how will it "fix" something that sits in a collet for example?
[22:53:33] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: they look like bad quality though
[22:53:37] <norias> aye, but if you've already got r-8
[22:53:39] <zeeshan> :(
[22:53:47] <PetefromTn_> meh typical chinese schtuff
[22:53:48] <toastydeath> cat30 4 lyfe
[22:54:01] <norias> LeeLooMinai: eh? not sure i undersand
[22:54:03] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: this is a GOOD pic
[22:54:09] <PetefromTn_> how precise does a boring head need to be really...
[22:54:11] <zeeshan> showing you GOOD quality taiwanese/chinese
[22:54:15] <zeeshan> vs mainland shit chinese
[22:54:18] <zeeshan> http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/zinga14/87942481-e6ac-48c8-98c1-a2a69672e5ea_zps2ac58112.jpg
[22:54:23] <archivist_> there are dead length ER collets for tool changing
[22:54:23] <zeeshan> left is phase 2 right is cdco.
[22:54:27] <zeeshan> you cant even see that is grinded
[22:54:27] <zeeshan> lol
[22:54:38] <zeeshan> http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/zinga14/IMG_0520_zps6cc3b9ac.jpg
[22:54:41] <LeelooMinai> norias: I mean when you have just a collet and nut to fix it, I do not see how to change the bit in easy way.
[22:54:58] <norias> uh, well
[22:55:10] <norias> there's er-32 collect chucks for r-8
[22:55:15] <PetefromTn_> look about the same to me heh
[22:55:18] <norias> stick a pull stud on that
[22:55:18] <zeeshan> dude
[22:55:22] <zeeshan> how can you not see the difference
[22:55:24] <zeeshan> one is ground!
[22:55:34] <toastydeath> r8 as a spindle taper sucks
[22:55:43] <norias> so it does
[22:55:45] <zeeshan> the other isnt even ground
[22:55:48] <norias> but if that's what you've got
[22:55:51] <norias> roll with it
[22:55:54] <zeeshan> you can still see the milling lines on it
[22:55:54] <PetefromTn_> they both look ground one is just coated..
[22:56:03] <toastydeath> doesn't really matter if the holder is ground
[22:56:15] <zeeshan> it does for cnc
[22:56:23] <PetefromTn_> why?
[22:56:30] <zeeshan> you f up your tool offset
[22:56:32] <archivist_> collets and fixed length http://www.genswiss.com/er_taper_integrated_tiloc_tooling.htm
[22:56:37] <PetefromTn_> as long as it loads the same position
[22:56:54] <toastydeath> the type of toolpost matters waaaaaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more
[22:56:56] <PetefromTn_> which has more to do with the dimensions and taper
[22:56:59] <zeeshan> i agree toastydeath
[22:57:04] <toastydeath> piston-based toolholders will always fuck it up
[22:57:07] <PetefromTn_> wedge type are better
[22:57:16] <zeeshan> they're not as bad as peoople make them out to be though
[22:57:19] <LeelooMinai> Looking at those cat40 holders or what they are and not sure how they work. How are they detached/attached without an intervention?
[22:57:22] <zeeshan> i can hold a thou no problem with piston style
[22:57:23] <toastydeath> and dovetail/wedge/whathaveyou fuck it up way less
[22:57:52] <PetefromTn_> the piston type I hear can kinda tilt a bit
[22:57:53] <norias> fucking machining debates
[22:58:02] <PetefromTn_> the wedge type locks down better
[22:58:10] <zeeshan> they tilt in the same position
[22:58:11] <zeeshan> lol
[22:58:16] <norias> machinists are the most opiniated assholes i've ever met
[22:58:18] <zeeshan> at least thats what i've found
[22:58:19] <norias> as a group
[22:58:28] <zeeshan> toastydeath: youre all over the internet
[22:58:35] <zeeshan> i was searching some machine related stuff
[22:58:37] <PetefromTn_> norias your point?
[22:58:38] <zeeshan> and you keep popping up
[22:58:43] <norias> just saying, it's true
[22:58:53] <toastydeath> norias, when you're in charge of machining things that twenty grand each, you tend to be opinionated
[22:58:53] <toastydeath> *cost twenty
[22:58:54] <zeeshan> norias: i'm glad im not a machinist then!
[22:59:00] <PetefromTn_> you calling me an asshole? an opinionated one at that?
[22:59:10] <zeeshan> no PetefromTn_ you're just an a hole
[22:59:11] * zeeshan hides
[22:59:12] <zeeshan> :-)
[22:59:13] <toastydeath> I'M CALLIN U AND UR MUM, MATE
[22:59:42] <CaptHindsight> don't be a doody head
[22:59:53] <norias> when i teach machining classes...
[22:59:55] <PetefromTn_> hell everyone here is a doody head
[22:59:55] <zeeshan> toastydeath: find me some .75" cat 40 shell mill holders
[23:00:03] <norias> i state upfront that i'm totally opinionated
[23:00:04] <zeeshan> cheap!
[23:00:13] <zeeshan> norias: why
[23:00:19] <zeeshan> its more fun seeing them fail
[23:00:19] <norias> because it's true
[23:00:32] <zeeshan> when they are know it all
[23:00:33] <zeeshan> :-)
[23:00:53] <zeeshan> i have friends that are in their final year right now
[23:01:13] * LeelooMinai decides to stick with lil ER11 for now - baby steps
[23:01:15] <zeeshan> they designed a part, thought they were perfect, didnt bother reviewing and asking experienced people who build shit
[23:01:21] <PetefromTn_> I wonder how bad that $80.00 cat40 3 inch boring head is...
[23:01:23] <zeeshan> now they have parts that dont fit together
[23:01:24] <zeeshan> hahahaha
[23:01:28] <toastydeath> i can find you a 4" cat 50 shell holder
[23:01:36] <zeeshan> toastydeath: too big :[
[23:01:42] <toastydeath> 4y
[23:01:56] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: its a boring head
[23:01:58] <zeeshan> it doesnt need to be precise
[23:02:03] <norias> machining students are way better than newly graduated mechanical engineers
[23:02:04] <zeeshan> you can adjust it :P
[23:02:07] <PetefromTn_> thats what I kinda think...
[23:02:13] <zeeshan> mine is chinese
[23:02:18] <PetefromTn_> as long as it slides and locks down good..
[23:02:25] <toastydeath> http://i.imgur.com/3dCJoIm.jpg
[23:02:27] <zeeshan> the only problem with it was it wasn't loking in place.
[23:02:29] <zeeshan> it had play in it.
[23:02:35] <zeeshan> found out the slit in it had chips in it
[23:02:39] <zeeshan> not allowing it to clamp
[23:02:46] <zeeshan> toastydeath: haha
[23:02:55] <PetefromTn_> I have used cutters like that before
[23:03:36] <norias> damn
[23:03:46] <norias> differential equations just made sense to me
[23:03:49] <PetefromTn_> so about this orient thing.....
[23:03:49] <norias> for a moment
[23:04:09] <norias> orient is the opposite of occident
[23:04:30] <zeeshan> DEs are awesome!
[23:04:59] <norias> i'm learning this
[23:05:04] <toastydeath> differential equations are the worst branch of mathematics ever
[23:05:08] <norias> lol
[23:05:23] <norias> well, i'm doing this economic... analysis
[23:05:25] <toastydeath> everything is either linear, and you've reduced the problem to linear algebra or some linear transform
[23:05:30] <norias> for oure suply chain
[23:05:35] <toastydeath> or it's not linear and everything becomes complex analysis and series solutions
[23:05:41] <norias> and it seems like DE is the way it goes
[23:05:52] <toastydeath> DE is the way nearly all physical models go
[23:05:57] <norias> fair
[23:06:07] <norias> so, yeah, now i need to learn that
[23:06:19] <norias> senior machinist, indeed
[23:06:33] <toastydeath> learning DE is a bit of a misnomer
[23:06:43] <toastydeath> anything that can be solved straightaway pretty much has been
[23:07:02] <toastydeath> and anything complicated (series solutions) require a shitload more math than the average person/engineer has access to
[23:07:15] <PetefromTn_> AND.....spindle orient!?
[23:07:16] <norias> wel, maybe it will be complicated
[23:07:20] <norias> but, i doubt it
[23:07:38] <zeeshan> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzYyWDEwODY=/z/nvEAAOxycmBS4G7N/$_57.JPG vs http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CAT40-3-4-Diameter-Caterpillar-V-Flange-Shell-End-Mill-Holder-6780-7102-/161505969931
[23:07:42] <zeeshan> can you spot a difference?
[23:07:43] <norias> i'm really doing a pretty simple model
[23:07:55] <norias> i could almost approximate it linearly
[23:08:00] <norias> and find the error
[23:08:12] <norias> i think
[23:08:15] <zeeshan> toastydeath: what are you talking about
[23:08:20] <zeeshan> most of the pdes i deal with are non linear
[23:08:43] <toastydeath> zeeshan, ....
[23:08:45] <toastydeath> where did i say that?
[23:09:22] <zeeshan> above
[23:09:29] <zeeshan> that everything gets transformed into a linear problem
[23:09:34] <zeeshan> thats cause it's easy to solve
[23:09:39] <zeeshan> and get an idea of whats going on
[23:09:47] <toastydeath> please copy paste what you're referring to because I have no idea what you're actually responding to
[23:09:58] <zeeshan> 23:44:42] <toastydeath> differential equations are the worst branch of mathematics ever
[23:09:59] <zeeshan> [23:45:02] <toastydeath> everything is either linear, and you've reduced the problem to linear algebra or some linear transform
[23:10:19] <toastydeath> keep going
[23:11:23] <zeeshan> it just sounded to me that you thought there was no benefit in a linear pde
[23:11:24] <zeeshan> de
[23:11:39] <toastydeath> that is not at all what I said, though - i have no idea how you'd get that conclusion out of what i wrote
[23:11:55] <zeeshan> why is it the worst branch then
[23:12:22] <toastydeath> as a branch of mathematics, it's the ugliest collection of hyperspecific solutions to edge cases that exists anywhere
[23:12:44] <toastydeath> where there are general solutions, they either come out of linear algebra (anything that is linear or can be reduced to it for your purposes)
[23:13:00] <PetefromTn_> who gives a shit hehe
[23:13:34] <toastydeath> or the problem is nonlinear and can't be reduced within your error tolerance, and then you have a horrifying series solution and are praying to the gods of complex analysis
[23:13:38] <zeeshan> i don't think finding a solution is _necessary_
[23:13:43] <zeeshan> using analytical methods
[23:14:31] <toastydeath> uh, yes it is - that's where you get the numeric approximation from
[23:14:51] <zeeshan> analytical method just means you have an exact answer
[23:14:56] <zeeshan> but your exact answer is bs to begin with
[23:15:01] <zeeshan> cause your model was likely wrong to begin with.
[23:15:05] <zeeshan> +/-10% is good enough
[23:15:18] <zeeshan> the only problem is computation time
[23:15:24] <toastydeath> I'm glad that you, a student and not a working engineer on any critical project, think 10% error is okay
[23:15:30] <norias> lol
[23:15:32] <zeeshan> toastydeath: thats practical life.
[23:15:40] <zeeshan> +/- 10% is accepted in engineering practice
[23:15:44] <toastydeath> I am also glad that you do not seem to understand how the software you use arrives at those pretty pictures showing stress
[23:15:52] <zeeshan> infact that was one of the words of the builder of the candu reactor.
[23:15:55] <norias> another shit storm
[23:16:05] <zeeshan> toastydeath: i understand it really well.
[23:16:09] <zeeshan> i know there is error.
[23:16:17] <toastydeath> then why on earth do you think you don't need a solution?
[23:16:29] <zeeshan> you don't need an exact solution always.
[23:16:31] <zeeshan> it's nice to have
[23:16:33] <toastydeath> do you not understand what it means in mathematics, to have a solution?
[23:16:35] <toastydeath> it appears not
[23:16:53] <zeeshan> what difference does it make if the stress is 105 kpsi
[23:16:57] <zeeshan> vs 102?
[23:17:01] <zeeshan> vs 115?
[23:17:16] <zeeshan> you're going to test the structure anyway
[23:17:22] <toastydeath> the problem here is that you don't understand what it means to have a solution
[23:17:24] <toastydeath> it does not mean "a number"
[23:17:47] <zeeshan> i'm simplifying it
[23:17:48] <toastydeath> the array of numbers you get out of the simulation software is NOT the solution
[23:17:51] <zeeshan> it could mean the displacement field
[23:18:06] <toastydeath> the solution is the thing you put INTO the simulation software -to calculate the approximation from-
[23:18:21] <toastydeath> lots of software will calculate a solution from a raw DE for you
[23:18:35] <toastydeath> and then go through the long and annoying business of calculating the approximation from that
[23:18:38] <zeeshan> you havent done finite difference method have you?
[23:18:43] <toastydeath> oh my god.
[23:18:49] <toastydeath> okay, I'm done with this
[23:18:52] <zeeshan> i'm completely lost what youre babbling about
[23:19:12] <zeeshan> if you have y'+y" + x = sinx + e^x
[23:19:20] <zeeshan> and you wanted to find a solution for that
[23:19:27] <zeeshan> say you couldn't solve that analytically
[23:19:36] <zeeshan> i'd use numerical methods to solve it and get a close enough answer
[23:19:40] <toastydeath> oh my god.
[23:19:41] <zeeshan> that answer isn't a soltuion?
[23:19:56] <toastydeath> you have no idea what these terms mean with respect to differential equations
[23:19:59] <PetefromTn_> hehehehe
[23:20:01] <zeeshan> it gives me the behaviour and everything i needed to know.
[23:20:15] <toastydeath> I understand you are coming from an engineering background and "it works" is good enough for you when it comes to math
[23:20:16] <toastydeath> really, i get it
[23:20:36] <toastydeath> I am coming from the mathematics background and actually having to understand why you can do what you're doing
[23:20:38] <zeeshan> toastydeath: what's funny is i found a post of you
[23:20:43] <zeeshan> talking about machining at your school shop
[23:20:54] <zeeshan> from like 2012
[23:21:00] <zeeshan> you're a professional machinist now
[23:21:05] <toastydeath> 2012?
[23:21:08] <toastydeath> earlier than that, dude
[23:21:28] <toastydeath> and no, I left machining
[23:21:49] <zeeshan> i'll just say
[23:21:51] <zeeshan> "who gives a shit"
[23:21:54] <zeeshan> as pete put it
[23:22:00] <zeeshan> as long as i can get a reasonable answer
[23:22:01] <zeeshan> i'm happy
[23:22:06] <toastydeath> the people who have to fucking write your software and then listen to dipshit responses about how it works
[23:22:07] <PetefromTn_> :)
[23:22:24] <zeeshan> toastydeath: i can write my own numerical methods software
[23:22:26] <toastydeath> i don't have a problem with anyone using the methods and not getting how they work
[23:22:28] <zeeshan> infact i have many many times
[23:22:43] <zeeshan> i don't trust most commercial software
[23:22:47] <toastydeath> i have a problem with someone asserting they know how it works and not understanding the basic terminology of the subject
[23:22:53] <zeeshan> for something in unchartered terrotories
[23:23:47] <zeeshan> toastydeath: go back to your theoretical math world :)
[23:24:16] <toastydeath> I'd love to, but weirdly i keep getting morons speaking out of their depth trying to correct me
[23:24:29] <zeeshan> whats your definition of a solution again?
[23:25:18] <toastydeath> any expression (not necessarily analyric or elementary) that satisfies the differential equation.
[23:25:25] <toastydeath> *analytic
[23:25:31] <toastydeath> fuck.
[23:26:06] <The_Ball> arguing on the internet is like competing in the paralympics, even if you win you're still retarded
[23:26:26] <zeeshan> haha im just in an arguing mode
[23:26:34] <zeeshan> haven't done it in a while
[23:26:45] <zeeshan> mx" + cx' + kx = 0
[23:26:47] <toastydeath> recursive functions and series solutions (both of which are used for numeric solvers) count as solutions - "a solution" does not mean you're able to write down some expression in terms of polynomials and the basic trigonometric functions
[23:26:47] <zeeshan> lets say that is our de
[23:27:02] <zeeshan> one non trivial solution can be in terms of sin and cos
[23:27:06] <zeeshan> that is not a solution?
[23:27:17] <toastydeath> sure is a solution
[23:27:51] <zeeshan> those are basic trig functions
[23:27:55] <toastydeath> yep, they sure are.
[23:27:55] <zeeshan> that give you the solution to that DE
[23:28:03] <PetefromTn_> jeez..... this is freakin' annoying
[23:28:03] <toastydeath> absolutely!
[23:28:24] <zeeshan> so i just did exactly what you said icouldnt
[23:28:31] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan where is the video of your damn machine moving
[23:28:36] <toastydeath> i didn't exclude those from the realm of possibility, i am saying solution doesn't mean you HAVE to be able to write it down
[23:28:57] <PetefromTn_> I don't think it actually moves I think you are full of shit and just making it up hehe
[23:29:03] <toastydeath> for instance, y'' + sin(y) = x
[23:29:25] <toastydeath> Not a thing you're gonna be able to write down in terms of elementary functions (polynomials, trig)
[23:29:45] <toastydeath> actually, the trig functions are a good elementary example for this problem
[23:29:52] <toastydeath> say you got a DE whose solution was y = sin(x)
[23:29:57] <zeeshan> why i can't i use finite difference method
[23:30:04] <zeeshan> to approximate the solution to that
[23:30:11] <zeeshan> it's an approximate solution
[23:30:14] <toastydeath> sure can!
[23:30:16] <zeeshan> not exact
[23:30:20] <zeeshan> so why can't i call that a solution
[23:30:32] <toastydeath> it's not a solution - it doesn't satisfy the DE.
[23:30:39] <toastydeath> it's a numerical approximation of a solution
[23:30:45] <toastydeath> Totes valid, but not a solution
[23:30:51] <zeeshan> fair enough
[23:30:55] <toastydeath> FDM also diverges wildly
[23:31:05] <toastydeath> so it's not generally used unless it's known the DE is well behaved for some reason
[23:31:08] <zeeshan> but at the end of the day
[23:31:11] <zeeshan> i get the information i need right?
[23:31:30] <PetefromTn_> Well Goodnight!
[23:31:35] <toastydeath> only if you know it's well behaved - don't apply it to an arbitrary DE.
[23:31:36] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: !
[23:31:51] <PetefromTn_> ?!
[23:32:00] <toastydeath> more generally, what's done (by actual software) is they generate s non-elementary solution to the DE
[23:32:04] <zeeshan> sorry for ruining your night haha PetefromTn_
[23:32:06] <toastydeath> *a
[23:32:31] <toastydeath> which is usually a recursive function, y(x + 1) = y(x) of some sort
[23:32:41] <toastydeath> or a function that is an infinite series
[23:33:04] <zeeshan> almost everything i know of ends up doing a taylor series expansion
[23:33:50] <norias> hmm
[23:34:00] <norias> i totally forget how to do taylor series expansion
[23:34:08] <toastydeath> sorry about that, keyboard locked up
[23:34:12] <norias> that's why i hated my calculus class
[23:34:20] <norias> i felt like we were just memorizing stuff
[23:34:25] <norias> and not learning how it worked
[23:34:27] <toastydeath> but the taylor expansion is very similar, yes
[23:34:31] <zeeshan> norias: you'll forget it
[23:34:33] <zeeshan> if you dont use it
[23:34:35] <norias> that's why i'm a machinist!
[23:34:42] <norias> take stuff apart, learn how it works
[23:34:44] <zeeshan> but i bet you'll know how to do it
[23:35:07] <toastydeath> you can also wind up with intergral solutions
[23:35:08] <zeeshan> i can't do ts expansion right off the top of my head right now
[23:35:18] <zeeshan> but i know its rewriting the function in terms of its derivatives
[23:35:24] <norias> hmm
[23:35:29] <norias> i should check that out
[23:35:34] <norias> might be useful for this problem
[23:35:41] <toastydeath> so you basically have an expression that IS an exact solution, but can't be written down usefully
[23:35:50] <toastydeath> so you expand it numerically and run that.
[23:35:52] <zeeshan> yea because its infinite
[23:36:05] <zeeshan> but thats why you have truncation errors
[23:36:08] <zeeshan> and all that fancy stuff
[23:36:28] <zeeshan> i always used to wonder why analytical solutions were needed so badly.
[23:36:28] <norias> uh, you know, at the end of the day
[23:36:30] <zeeshan> it just makes life easier
[23:36:35] <norias> i'm just doing some simple guidance
[23:36:36] <toastydeath> definitely
[23:36:36] <zeeshan> and less computationally demanding
[23:36:46] <zeeshan> look at CFD stuff
[23:36:52] <zeeshan> simulations still take years
[23:36:55] <zeeshan> :D
[23:37:12] <zeeshan> norias: simple guidance?
[23:37:15] <toastydeath> yep, and it's those long-running, fine-grained simulations that can't handle methods that diverge
[23:37:21] <toastydeath> (like finite difference)
[23:37:46] <norias> ok, so
[23:37:47] <toastydeath> you'll hear stuff like Runge-Kutta 4th order
[23:37:55] <norias> basically i know yields on processes
[23:37:59] <norias> and i want to say
[23:38:09] <norias> if you want $.01 change in final part cost
[23:38:37] <norias> you need this much change in yield
[23:39:14] <norias> sounds relatively simple
[23:39:21] <norias> (i bet it actually is for ya'll)
[23:39:33] <toastydeath> calculus
[23:39:33] <zeeshan> im absolutely terrible with economics related problems
[23:39:37] <zeeshan> fin hate it
[23:39:40] <norias> lol
[23:39:46] <toastydeath> you're talking about marginal cost and marginal profit
[23:39:46] <norias> i think what makes it complicated
[23:39:58] <norias> is yields on multiple processes
[23:40:04] <norias> that are inputs to the next
[23:40:05] <norias> etc
[23:40:12] <toastydeath> vector calculus :D
[23:40:19] <norias> never got that far
[23:40:28] <toastydeath> or lord save you, tensor calculus
[23:40:33] <norias> i'm not dealing with the profit side
[23:40:37] <norias> i'm doing the cost side
[23:40:41] <XXCoder> I went as far as linear algbera
[23:40:50] <norias> i got roped in to
[23:40:52] <XXCoder> I bet that would be fun... if I didnt get sucky teacher\
[23:40:56] <norias> 1. because i think it's interesting
[23:41:05] <norias> 2. because one of the operations is stamping
[23:41:16] <norias> and well, i used to work in a die shop
[23:41:17] <toastydeath> XXCoder, lin alg is one of my favorite subjects
[23:41:20] <zeeshan> toastydeath: have you looked at finite strain theory?
[23:41:24] <norias> so i'm the relative expert in stamping
[23:41:31] <toastydeath> zeeshan, negative
[23:41:34] <norias> linear algebra seems neat
[23:42:11] <zeeshan> toastydeath: its kinda cool because its prety new to me
[23:42:21] <zeeshan> usually you would say strain = du / dx
[23:42:34] <zeeshan> (you ignore rotational effects, only consider translational)
[23:42:43] <zeeshan> but now you have this non linear term at the end
[23:43:06] <zeeshan> no longer can use superposition
[23:43:15] <zeeshan> and all those fancy regular mechanics stuff :D
[23:43:19] <XXCoder> toasty I bet
[23:43:47] <toastydeath> this looks like continuum mechanics
[23:43:52] <toastydeath> (another subject i've never studied)
[23:44:14] <toastydeath> also XXCoder, it's very cool. once you get past the relatively boring stuff about matrices there's a lot of bizarre things you can do with it
[23:44:26] <norias> :( i like matrices
[23:44:29] <XXCoder> I remember some of it
[23:44:31] <toastydeath> fourier transforms and signal analysis are all linear algebra
[23:45:21] <norias> hmm
[23:46:22] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you've worked with tensors?
[23:46:28] <zeeshan> yes
[23:46:32] <zeeshan> just 2nd order
[23:46:33] <toastydeath> i see this is mostly tensor analysis
[23:46:47] <toastydeath> you have me beat there, I've got a book on the subject but have never opened it
[23:47:29] <zeeshan> dude
[23:47:40] <toastydeath> ?
[23:47:47] <zeeshan> im not really crazy mathematical , so i need a more backwards approach in understanding stuff
[23:47:54] <zeeshan> for a long time, i was like 'wtf is this tensor shit'
[23:48:04] <zeeshan> after reading for like 6 months
[23:48:08] <zeeshan> i finally got my answer..
[23:48:13] <zeeshan> and it wasn't anything spectacular
[23:48:15] <toastydeath> oh, i wasn't trying to be confrontational or anything on this (sorry if it came across that way)
[23:48:21] <zeeshan> no i know
[23:48:23] <zeeshan> im just venting
[23:48:27] <zeeshan> cause i spent a long time to figure them out
[23:48:36] <toastydeath> yeah, multilinear algbera.
[23:48:37] <zeeshan> it took me 6 months to figure out that
[23:48:39] <zeeshan> all tensors are
[23:48:54] <zeeshan> in terms of 2d rank, and stress and strain and continuum mechanics
[23:49:01] <zeeshan> is a frame work that allows you to represent an element
[23:49:13] <zeeshan> without letting transalation or rotation effecting that frame work
[23:49:30] <zeeshan> ^ took 6 mo to figure that out
[23:50:24] <toastydeath> the translation and rotation are encoded in the tensor, right?
[23:50:34] <toastydeath> (it includes everything?)
[23:50:46] <zeeshan> yes
[23:50:55] <zeeshan> like when you perform a rotation on a tensor
[23:50:56] <toastydeath> that's what I thought; i come at it from the math side
[23:51:04] <zeeshan> you'll notice the previous matrix and after translation matrix
[23:51:07] <zeeshan> have invariants
[23:51:20] <zeeshan> after rotation i mean
[23:51:27] <zeeshan> translation is easier to see.
[23:52:47] <zeeshan> i honestly dont get math from a mathematical stand point
[23:52:48] <toastydeath> i wish i knew enough engineering to look at the stress tensor and know what the terms are, because there's a related subject
[23:52:52] <zeeshan> i can do calculations and shit
[23:53:00] <zeeshan> but i try to learn in terms of physical stuff
[23:53:04] <zeeshan> like when someone says PDES to me
[23:53:08] <zeeshan> i think navier stokes
[23:53:10] <toastydeath> called multilinear algebra, where instead of a single vector being the solution at a point (of a vector function)
[23:53:15] <toastydeath> you get a whole set of vectors
[23:53:17] <zeeshan> or transient heat conduction
[23:53:37] <zeeshan> that sounds very much like a tensor
[23:53:39] <toastydeath> apparently the stress tensor is actually this sort of construction, called a blade
[23:53:50] <toastydeath> BUT what I'm curious about is this
[23:53:55] <toastydeath> if you have 3 vectors in the tensor
[23:54:17] <toastydeath> is one of those vectors the force/translation, and the other two defining the direction and magnetude of the rotation at that point?
[23:55:13] <zeeshan> thats too hardcore of a question for me
[23:55:14] <zeeshan> haha
[23:55:18] <toastydeath> (because two vectors at a single point in multilinear algebra create something that is VERY similar to a cross product)
[23:55:33] <toastydeath> there's a whole generalization of the cross product to something much more beautiful/simple
[23:55:45] <toastydeath> using these tensors/blades
[23:56:11] <toastydeath> but yeah I went into math because the pure math side of it is really about developing new... mental models?
[23:56:23] <toastydeath> don't get me wrong I loved the limited amount of engineering i did
[23:56:27] <toastydeath> 60 credits or so
[23:56:32] <toastydeath> still simple shit
[23:56:54] <toastydeath> but the models and how people came up with ways to think about the problems drew me away
[23:56:55] <zeeshan> the second order tensor i deal with
[23:57:10] <zeeshan> you can get by doing the dot product of 2 vectors
[23:57:14] <zeeshan> i dont know if that helps answer your q
[23:57:17] <zeeshan> lol
[23:57:29] <toastydeath> dot product or cross?
[23:57:30] <zeeshan> but its 1 kind of 2nd order tensor
[23:57:32] <zeeshan> dot product
[23:57:34] <zeeshan> er
[23:57:34] <toastydeath> weird
[23:57:37] <zeeshan> cross product
[23:57:37] <toastydeath> that makes no sense
[23:57:38] <zeeshan> not DOT
[23:57:38] <zeeshan> wtf
[23:57:41] <toastydeath> ahahha whew
[23:57:42] <toastydeath> okay
[23:57:48] <zeeshan> dot product of two vectors will give a damn scalar
[23:57:51] <toastydeath> so yes, I understand what kind of object that is
[23:58:10] <zeeshan> btw ive never heard of the term blade in my life
[23:58:11] <zeeshan> haha
[23:58:21] <zeeshan> you're really into that theoeretical frame work stuff
[23:58:21] <toastydeath> it's fairly obscure, a vector is a 1-blade
[23:58:29] <zeeshan> like that PURE math
[23:58:30] <zeeshan> REAL math
[23:58:31] <toastydeath> two vectors is a 2-blade, etc
[23:58:40] <Connor> anyone here know anything about duct work and HVAC systems ?
[23:58:49] <toastydeath> true, but it grazes applied shit pretty often in physics
[23:59:09] <toastydeath> physicists are the ones who are driving research in topology and blades/multilinear algebra
[23:59:10] <zeeshan> im not saying it has no significance
[23:59:11] <zeeshan> without it
[23:59:14] <zeeshan> we wouldn't have engineering
[23:59:15] <zeeshan> OR
[23:59:16] <zeeshan> physics
[23:59:31] <zeeshan> the framework is inherently in what we use
[23:59:34] <toastydeath> but you know how you do cross products, and you get a vector?
[23:59:45] <zeeshan> yea you do the loop rule!
[23:59:46] <zeeshan> haha
[23:59:52] <toastydeath> And the direction it points is normal to the plane of rotation (or whatever)
[23:59:55] <zeeshan> i have no idea how you get it from a framework perspective