#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-01-15

[00:05:49] <XXCoder> OHHH http://hackaday.com/2015/01/14/myst-linking-book/
[00:14:13] <Computer_Barf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kt6c-px2OY
[01:25:52] <unfy> sigh
[01:26:05] <unfy> couldn't take it anymore. grabbed a cheap digital scope
[01:34:35] <zeeshan_> all 3 encoders working
[01:34:36] <zeeshan_> hooray
[01:39:32] <Valen> always handy
[01:48:18] <archivist> it it plugged in?
[01:50:38] <zeeshan_> archivist,
[01:50:40] <zeeshan_> funny guy :)
[01:51:26] <zeeshan_> these scales are super accurate
[01:51:31] <zeeshan_> i got a tenths indicator
[01:51:39] <zeeshan_> its reading dead on
[01:51:56] <archivist> it was a common joke on the bench watching someone trying to trace signals when the device was off
[01:52:21] <zeeshan_> archivist, hahaha
[01:52:30] <zeeshan_> i was chasing my tail earlieron that
[01:52:37] <archivist> everyone does it sometime in their lives
[01:52:37] <zeeshan_> i called myself an idiot when i saw it was unplugged
[02:17:08] <bobo_> zeeshan: glad to hear of the progress . If I was there it would not be that helpfull. keep on keeping on
[02:20:38] <bobo_> when you say encoders , does that mean the heidenhan scales ?
[02:31:54] <zeeshan_> bobo yes
[02:37:15] <Deejay> moin
[07:45:52] <mrsun> have linuxcnc moved from ubuntu now ?
[07:45:57] <mrsun> noticed latest install was debian
[07:54:42] <XXCoder> ubuntu is debian based
[07:55:47] <archivist> ubuntu are screwing with the user interface
[08:11:29] <mrsun> XXCoder: yes i know but now its pure debian it seems? =)
[08:11:36] <mrsun> archivist: how so ?
[08:11:57] <archivist> too windows 8 like from the comments I have seen
[08:12:22] <mrsun> hehe
[08:12:37] <mrsun> yeah .. ubuntu is horrible in that way .. but that doesnt stop anyone from using xubuntu or similiar? =)
[08:12:57] <archivist> it does if the windows manager is broken enough
[08:13:00] <mrsun> but i dont mind debian .. just noticed it when installing =)
[08:13:19] <mrsun> archivist: MATE ... =)
[08:13:53] * jthornton had to try 3 desktop managers in wheezy before I found one I liked
[08:14:06] <jthornton> mate won the trial
[08:14:29] <mrsun> from what i can tell mate is gnome2 continued
[08:15:00] <mrsun> tried gnome 3 .. sure its kinda nice ... can improve some workflow but requires a bit much graphics processing =)
[08:15:08] <mrsun> i like my UI simple, slick and fast =)
[08:15:16] <mrsun> not flashy and full of particle effects :P
[08:15:32] <jthornton> I like one that works
[08:16:13] <micges> for me LXDE won
[08:18:53] <micges> and it's small enough to run acceptably fast on old atoms
[08:35:09] <Loetmichel> i especially liked the 10.04 ubuntu menu structure
[08:35:17] <Loetmichel> have settled with xubuntu for now
[08:39:23] <micges> at least we can choose, not like in win 8...
[08:41:58] <norias> hm
[08:42:10] <norias> to hell with windows
[08:42:11] <JT-Shop> yea, having a choice is much better
[08:42:29] <JT-Shop> archivist, did you see the torch first burn?
[08:42:38] <norias> Windows->"Hey, I'm restarting the computer."
[08:42:47] <norias> Me->"What, why?"
[08:42:59] <norias> Windows->"Sorry, no time to talk!"
[08:45:54] <mrsun> then it sits there for like 3 hours installing updates :P
[08:46:32] <micges> yeah on latest 4 core uberfast notebook :)
[08:47:50] <malcom2073> Maybe you should update more often? :P
[08:48:08] <mrsun> hmm i wonder if i should go down a youtube rabbit hole and see wher ei end up
[08:48:20] <mrsun> malcom2073: hell "security update 273kb" does the same
[08:48:54] <archivist> JT-Shop, yours? no
[08:49:01] <malcom2073> mrsun: Like anything, YMMV. I notice that people that like windows 8 (like me, on my tablet) have no issues, and updates install really fast... butpeople who hate windows 8 seem to have hours-long updates all the time
[08:49:40] <malcom2073> I do like xubuntu though
[08:49:48] <archivist> JT-Shop, or that youtube one, which was nice and blue
[08:49:53] <malcom2073> getting back to the horrible ubuntu thing
[08:50:23] * archivist hates win8 absolutely
[08:50:43] <malcom2073> archivist: Bet updates take days to instal lfor you :P
[08:51:21] <archivist> my occasional job is fixing idiots peeeeceeees
[08:51:27] <malcom2073> eww
[08:51:33] <malcom2073> I couldn't do PC tech support
[08:51:34] <malcom2073> not again
[08:51:50] <micges> I hate win8 too, I tried to install linux on quite new notebook, its a no go
[08:51:54] <archivist> and win8 hit a new low in usability
[08:52:19] <malcom2073> I tried linux on my tablet, it wouldn't work, so I had to do windows, and win8 was free at the time, so meh
[08:52:53] <archivist> hiding the scroll bar while you are reading is appalling so you need to waggle the mouse to scroll
[08:53:12] <malcom2073> archivist: I think 90% of the hate on windows 8, is because people use it with a mouse.
[08:53:16] <malcom2073> i couldn't stand it with a mouse
[08:53:24] <JT-Shop> archivist, this is mine http://imagebin.ca/v/1oAWizKcJBMV
[08:53:41] <JT-Shop> need to open up the vent slot a bit
[08:53:42] <archivist> it was supplied on a mouse only laptop to neighbour
[08:54:07] <malcom2073> Well, microsoft was stupid, as they often are.
[08:54:35] <archivist> JT-Shop, the right blue anyway
[08:55:14] <archivist> I am going to install two win7 boxes tomorrow :)
[08:56:58] <archivist> JT-Shop, did you use the same valve as him? seemed a bit restrictive
[08:57:53] <tjtr33> i put wheezy on a 200$ asus chromebook using chroot system called 'crouton'. not dual boot.
[08:58:19] <tjtr33> works fine for me ( not linuxcnc, but all my std linux apps )
[08:59:04] <Jymmm> Sexual Transmitted Diseases ?
[08:59:15] <malcom2073> Nah, that's GPL
[08:59:23] * malcom2073 runs
[08:59:27] <Jymmm> No, That's Free Love
[08:59:49] <Jymmm> Anyone use Verizon? You'll love this... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/01/verizon-and-turn-break-browser-privacy-protections
[09:03:03] <Jymmm> Need a body scanner? http://www.ebay.com/itm/111519265986
[09:03:35] <malcom2073> "to install VPN, an expensive and difficult option, especially on a mobile phone" rofl
[09:05:24] <Jymmm> malcom2073: ?
[09:05:55] <malcom2073> Jymmm: nevemind
[09:06:12] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Have you tried using a VPN on a mobile?
[09:06:27] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Yeah, I installed openvpn on my phone, typed in the IP address, and it just uh... worked
[09:06:38] <malcom2073> Well, IP and key
[09:06:49] <malcom2073> it's in the play store
[09:06:53] <Jymmm> malcom2073: on a continous basis?
[09:07:12] <malcom2073> Jymmm: I use it ever weekday, it's how I connect to my work network, why?
[09:07:19] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Heh, you trust ANYTHING on the play store?
[09:08:19] <malcom2073> As much as I trust anything on any connected device
[09:09:04] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Google doesn't even fully release android source code.
[09:09:35] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Like I said, as much as I trust anything on any connected device. If you don't want something seen by everyone , don't put it on the internet, that includes phones
[09:10:21] <malcom2073> Jymmm: If you're gonna go down the tin foil hat, we could talk about how trustworthy the debian maintainers are :P
[09:10:38] <malcom2073> Who knows what malicious code they're inserting into the packages hmmmmm?
[09:10:48] <Jymmm> malcom2073: FTR, even using a socks5 proxy is a pita to use.
[09:11:14] <Jymmm> malcom2073: But the debian code base is open to audits being the difference
[09:11:25] <malcom2073> Jymmm: audits by whom? how do you know to trust them?
[09:11:39] <Jymmm> Especially with al the variant flavors of distros using it
[09:11:54] <malcom2073> sorry, I'm trolling at this point, I'll stop.
[09:12:54] <Jymmm> malcom2073: No, you make a good point, but the thing is it is in thedvelopers best interest to catch snafus, and that in part, is a discovery method
[09:12:59] <malcom2073> my point was, VPN is neither difficult or expensive, any more than installing an operating system on a computer is difficult or expensive. IOW: It can be, it doesn't have to be.
[09:14:05] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Setting up a SOCKS5 proxy on android IS a pita, if not a clusterfuck.
[09:14:18] <malcom2073> I've never tried that, I haven't used SOCKS since before android was a thing
[09:15:23] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Well, for example... I was at the hospital and they use OpenDNS on theri wifi and restrict access to NetFlix, YouTube, etc.
[09:16:55] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I wanted to use my shell accounts to bypass it, but you have to have a ssh client on android that supports it, but that take cpu power for one, plus hte interration into the network stack/config on android
[09:17:51] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I just wanted to watch a movie while waiting, nothing sinister. But frustrating
[09:18:59] <Jymmm> malcom2073: For JePublic, you have to have a VPN to be able to use a cient.
[09:19:05] <Jymmm> client*
[09:19:31] <Jymmm> and thats far less available than a vhost r shell account
[09:19:35] <Jymmm> or*
[09:21:57] <malcom2073> Jymmm: the openvpn app can route all traffic, from all apps, over vpn, so unless they have your vpn connection blocked, it "just works".
[09:22:41] <Jymmm> malcom2073: But you have to have a VPN server somewhere to connect to. If you got fired tomorrow, do you have one?
[09:22:58] <malcom2073> At home, yeah
[09:23:15] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Great, that's a rarity.
[09:23:51] <Jymmm> malcom2073: But it's far more likely ppl will have a vhost somewhere and can shell into it.
[09:24:32] <malcom2073> Anyway, you totally disagree with me, which is fine, I don't need to argue wit hyou :)
[09:24:47] <malcom2073> I have no interest in changing your mind, Iwas just laughing about something I found funy
[09:25:10] <malcom2073> Apolgies if my opinion on that that insulted or in some way inconvenienced you
[09:25:17] <Jymmm> malcom2073: What I'm saying is it's not as easy as hitting INSTALL from the play store, you have to have some infastructure in place.
[09:40:09] <Roguish> hey all. got a problem last evening. was running lcnc, shut it down to make a hardware mod, started up again not get error "can't find hm2_pci.ko" WTF any ideas?
[09:41:03] <Roguish> yes, the file 'hm2_pci.ko' is exactly where it is supposed to be. was first thing i checked.
[09:41:07] * Loetmichel does a bit of Aluminium origami... speakers for 24" tft monitors... 40 pcs ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15538
[09:42:15] <tjtr33> is it a RIP? did you source the environment?
[09:43:23] <Roguish> no, instalalled from the hybrid iso. updated thru regular sys update.
[09:43:52] <Roguish> installed
[09:44:25] <micges> Roguish: any errors in dmesg?
[09:45:05] <Roguish> no, not that i recognized. i even cleared dmesg and ran again.
[09:47:51] <micges> Roguish: try it and pastebin.com both errors from terminal and dmesg
[09:49:07] <Roguish> will do, might take a while. machine is in shop, i'm in the warm. just starting the day. might try thru putty and xlaunch......
[09:51:16] <micges> ok
[10:00:35] <Roguish> micges: ok first errors; http://pastebin.com/srC6BM9v
[10:01:31] <Roguish> micges: ok, now dmesg: http://pastebin.com/M06PGGsN
[10:01:55] <Roguish> got em thru remote login.
[10:02:02] <micges> Error: could not insert module /usr/realtime-3.4-9-rtai-686-pae/modules/linuxcnc/hm2_pci.ko: No such device
[10:02:21] <micges> it's not finding any pci mesa device
[10:03:39] <Roguish> wtf. it's right there. ok, i'll take it out, clean the contacts and reinsert. i did wiggle it already. THANKS.
[10:04:45] <Roguish> if i do a lspci, it should show up, yes?
[10:05:17] <micges> yes
[10:05:19] <pcw_home> Its not even finding the bridge so that points to PCI issues (I'd clean the edge connector _and_ slot with IPA)
[10:05:28] <micges> lspci -vv
[10:06:34] <tjtr33> i always read that as India Pale Ale
[10:06:39] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150115-french-helicopter-manufacturer-turbomeca-begins-3d-printing-flight-ready-helicopter-parts.html
[10:07:10] <pcw_home> India Pale Ale has better uses though
[10:07:28] <skunkworks> and probably not good as a contact cleaner
[10:07:39] <Roguish> ok, heres's lspci: http://pastebin.com/BdynuYKV
[10:08:52] <Roguish> and lspci -vv : http://pastebin.com/jsfrxpLV
[10:13:10] <JT-Shop> the Menards $11 T8 fixture is brighter than the Wal-Mart $11 T8 fixture
[10:13:36] <JT-Shop> we will see how long it lasts...
[10:18:40] <micges> Roguish: yep even bridge on mesa don't show up, clean it like pcw_home said
[10:19:19] <Roguish> ok, will do in a bit after a couple of cups of coffee........oh yeah.
[10:19:56] <Roguish> i can drop it in another cpu board and try it also.
[10:22:06] <PetefromTn_> JT-Shop what are you talking about?
[10:22:51] <micges> Roguish: what mesa do you have?
[10:23:13] <Roguish> 5i20
[10:27:36] <tjtr33> JT-Shop, the 'instant sun' ones? i thought you found led replacements for 11$ :(
[10:27:36] <ssi> JT-Shop: I just went through some lighting discovery last night myself
[10:27:57] <ssi> I've been resistant to the T5s for a long time, but I finally bought in
[10:28:07] <ssi> the T5HO 54W bulbs are holymazing
[10:28:14] <ssi> but they're expensive
[10:33:45] <JT-Shop> yea, that's what I like about the T8 they are cost effective
[10:34:08] <tjtr33> damn sold out 12$ T8 led https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/96868/LED-54104431.html?gclid=CPGf9eqxlsMCFRCLaQodmEkAig
[10:35:20] <ssi> two T5HO bulbs is 8000 lumen
[10:35:52] <Roguish> pcw_home: ok, pulled the 5i20 and put it in a different mainboard. still does not show up in lspci. also, the voltage regulator IC on the back end of the board gets hot. not supposed to is it?
[10:36:01] <JT-Shop> PetefromTn_, http://www.menards.com/main/lighting-fans/indoor-lights/fluorescent/2-light-48-fluorescent-shoplight/p-1848411-c-7495.htm
[10:38:30] <JT-Shop> oh it's this one http://www.menards.com/main/lighting-fans/indoor-lights/fluorescent/2-light-48-white-high-performance-fluorescent-plug-in-shoplight/p-1385009-c-7495.htm
[10:38:54] <JT-Shop> $15
[10:39:32] <tjtr33> how is the fixture brighter? different ballast?
[10:40:10] <tjtr33> 9.99 limit 2
[10:41:56] <tjtr33> 27 in stock :) and just repainted basement all white (puts on shades)
[10:42:13] <tjtr33> thx
[10:43:23] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7Z2k9CIQAAdleV.jpg:large
[10:43:27] <ssi> just hung ligths in here last night
[10:43:35] <ssi> two 2-bulb T5HO fixtures
[10:43:38] <ssi> holy crap they're bright
[10:43:44] <pcw_home> Roguish: If the voltage regulator gets hot and the card does no show up, it likely means the FPGA is toast
[10:43:45] <pcw_home> and is shorting out the local 3.3V regulator (which also powers the bridge)
[10:43:47] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7Z2oHjIEAAyc1m.jpg:large
[10:44:38] <Roguish> dang. repair? and how the heck does that happen? i'm good at it!!!!
[10:44:51] <_methods> yeah man that t5h0 is nice
[10:47:57] <ssi> fixtures were $40 each and the bulbs are $10 apiece, so $60 per fixture :/
[10:48:09] <_methods> yeah little more pricy but much better light
[10:49:02] <ssi> homer has a 4-bulb fixture that puts out 18k lumen... friend at the airport who was helping me with this bought one for his hangar and holy crap it's bright
[10:50:00] <SpeedEvil> 100W LEDs are now ridiculously cheap
[10:50:02] <SpeedEvil> Which is nice
[10:50:12] <SpeedEvil> If only they weren't so mental to heatsink
[10:50:36] <ssi> 100W is a lot of heat to put into a soldered die :P
[10:51:38] <_methods> heh last shop i was at built a new shop for all the cnc machines and put in crazy lighting, super bright and light colored floor
[10:51:47] <_methods> no one could read the control screens
[10:52:02] <_methods> every machine has a cardboard visor over the control now lol
[10:52:25] <ssi> hahah
[10:52:44] <ssi> now the machineshop half seems dark, and I want to go back and hang more lights!
[10:53:25] <archivist> excessive contrast is a mistake :)
[10:54:05] <JT-Shop> tjtr33, dunno why but the bulbs are brighter than the wal mart fixtures
[10:54:19] <JT-Shop> it does say "performance shop light"
[10:55:32] <ssi> the ballast makes a big difference
[10:55:42] <ssi> I've tried to avoid buying cheap lights cause the ballasts are terrible
[10:55:46] <ssi> less output and they die more easily
[10:59:17] <SpeedEvil> I cheated.
[10:59:32] <SpeedEvil> My local supermarket was selling CFLs subsidised - philips - at 49p each
[10:59:38] <SpeedEvil> I bought ~100
[10:59:54] <SpeedEvil> 30*22W energy saving bulbs is really effective shop lighting.
[11:00:11] <SpeedEvil> But - perhaps misses out slightly on the point of 'energy saving'
[11:00:20] <ssi> hahaha
[11:00:32] <archivist> I got a load of the Morrisons ones too :)
[11:13:28] <JT-Shop> 28 x 32w T8's are plenty bright when needed
[11:16:19] <SpeedEvil> I was cheap - I soldered them along a bit of flex
[11:25:59] <archivist> I think my garage is too wet to do that unless I silicon the joints......
[11:27:43] <zeeshan> ssi!
[11:28:03] <tjtr33> when you turn on a room full of flourescents, and its real quiet, theres a nice noise as each fires up ( univ texas labs 1960s)
[11:28:14] <zeeshan> you didnt posts pics of that bad ass plane youre building
[11:29:03] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzjOsLJyeGs
[11:29:15] <zeeshan> PCW_home hi
[11:29:31] <pcw_home> Hi
[11:30:04] <zeeshan> i hooked up the absolute encoders and coupled X-axis motor. when i try to do analogout0 1
[11:30:15] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, thats a crap ballast, the noise i remeber is like a chandelier in wind
[11:30:19] <zeeshan> or even 10, the motor spins super slow
[11:30:25] <zeeshan> and starts making weird noises ocassionally?
[11:31:02] <zeeshan> (this is in open loop)
[11:31:09] <zeeshan> for position that is.
[11:32:19] <tjtr33> zeeshan, no idea of scale, 1 and 10 both maybe miniscule, and you may only be seeing drift, not even speed
[11:33:00] <zeeshan> at 0 it doesnt really move
[11:33:17] <zeeshan> i didnt modify a scale parameter
[11:33:35] <zeeshan> even if i type 200 in analogout0 it doesnt do much
[11:34:02] <tjtr33> measure the output w halmeter and/or vmeter?
[11:34:31] <zeeshan> output of what in halmeter
[11:34:39] <zeeshan> if im saying 200 wouldnt it be 200V?
[11:34:50] <zeeshan> i was thinking that analogout should only be between -10 and 10
[11:34:51] <CaptHindsight> is there anything at Radio Shack worth buying at >50% off?
[11:35:50] <zeeshan> im kinda wondering if i tuned the velocity drive correctly.
[11:36:16] <zeeshan> i just turned up gain till it started making noises at the motor. and from that point rotated the point 1 full turn
[11:37:25] <tjtr33> zeeshan, i dont think 200 means 200volts. can you read the docs and see if its a value of PWM ( like a duty cycle maybe )
[11:39:04] <zeeshan> (float in) .7i77.0.1.analogoutN: (N = 0 to 5) This controls the analog output of the 7i77.
[11:39:08] <zeeshan> thats all it says in the manual
[11:39:43] <tjtr33> ok so this is a mesa card with a 7i77 daughter
[11:39:48] <zeeshan> yes
[11:43:37] <tjtr33> i cant find "analogout" in the 7i77 manual, where is it?
[11:43:43] <pcw_home> each sserial scalar output has 3 parameters that set scaling and bounds
[11:43:47] <zeeshan> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/sserial.9.html
[11:44:42] <tjtr33> in the man page ok
[11:45:01] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i am kinda at a lost point right now. can you please confirm if tuning the drive for velocity mode is as simple as turning up the gain till motor makes noise
[11:45:12] <zeeshan> and then removing the drift by using the offset pot on the drive
[11:45:31] <zeeshan> i did that w/ the motor decoupled.
[11:45:59] <pcw_home> well that should be close, you also have to set the tachometer gain (so 10V in = max motor RPM)
[11:46:01] <zeeshan> now i coupled the motor and want to use the glass scale to show me any oscillation in the velocity feedback loop
[11:46:13] <zeeshan> to help me tune velocity mode even more.
[11:47:03] <pcw_home> You need to set the tachometer gain first
[11:47:21] <zeeshan> by tachometer gain, you mean:
[11:47:22] <zeeshan> Reference gain. Adjusts the ratio between input signal and output variables (voltage, current, or velocity).
[11:47:32] <zeeshan> that is set to 0 almost now.
[11:48:01] <pcw_home> no the tachometer input gain
[11:48:05] <zeeshan> the gain i tuned till oscillation was thisone: "Loop gain adjustment for duty cycle / velocity modes. Turn this pot fully CCW in current mode. "
[11:48:13] <tjtr33> no thats cmd gain, and why you get zippo response. we used to setthe tacho gain using open loop and a handheld tachometer. ran the dvice at rated rpm, recorded the actual tacho voltage. used that actual volatge for actual rpm to set tacho gain.
[11:48:58] <zeeshan> i tuned this pot to remove drift: Offset / Test. Used to adjust any im balance in the input signal or in the amplifier. Can also be used as an on-board signal source for testing purposes
[11:49:07] <zeeshan> there is no pot for adjusting tacho gain
[11:49:55] <pcw_home> thats... odd
[11:49:58] <zeeshan> the only note i saw about it in the manual was scalling your tachoimeter input gain.
[11:50:09] <zeeshan> if the feedback signal is not +/-60vdc
[11:50:14] <zeeshan> mine is +/- 60vdc already
[11:50:40] <zeeshan> to adjust tachometer input gain scaling you need to add a resistor in parallel.
[11:51:00] <zeeshan> but that is only if your tachometer output is not +/-60v
[11:51:23] <pcw_home> ok so if that is close and you know your motors max RPM you should be able to set the input (command) gain
[11:52:09] <pcw_home> apply say 5V to analog input, then set input gain for 1/2 full speed
[11:53:02] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3929/14912261923_61f7e29cbd_b.jpg --- correct me if im wrong but in this it says 20mVmin .. max rpm of motor is 3000 , 3000*20 = 60000mV = 60V
[11:53:30] <pcw_home> (measure with tachometer voltage since you know the tachometer scale)
[11:54:14] <zeeshan> should i do this coupled on decoupled
[11:55:03] <pcw_home> decoupled is safer (and load will not make a difference)
[11:56:12] <zeeshan> ".7i77.0.0.spinout-scalemax:"?
[11:56:16] <pcw_home> it does look like 60V full scale so you should adjust for 30V at 5V in
[11:57:03] <pcw_home> yes that sets the output scaling (which is unrelated to tachometer scaling)
[11:57:09] <zeeshan> erm
[11:57:48] <zeeshan> which parameter is the input gain related to the tachometer
[11:58:08] <pcw_home> thats all local to the drive
[11:58:52] <pcw_home> drive needs to be set up so 10V is full speed (before worryin about anything in linxcnc)
[11:58:53] <zeeshan> theres only 3 parameters i can change on the drive. loop gain, reference gain and offset
[11:59:29] <pcw_home> You set 10V full scale with reference gain
[12:00:02] <pcw_home> (and a voltmeter on the tacho leads)
[12:00:08] <zeeshan> if i disconnect the tachometer it will go crazy
[12:00:26] <tjtr33> <zeeshan> Reference gain. ...<zeeshan> that is set to 0 almost now you are multiplying the velocity command by almost 0, and you get no motion. that is what you should expect. increase the reference gain some
[12:00:35] <zeeshan> tjtr33: ah.
[12:00:54] <zeeshan> im gonna have to retune X axis. i already messed with loop gain
[12:00:57] <zeeshan> thinking it was something to do with it haha
[12:01:02] <zeeshan> its prolly really sluggish responding now
[12:01:14] <zeeshan> can i clean up loop gain wit hthe motor coupled after?
[12:01:21] <zeeshan> and use the glass scales to show me "oscillation"
[12:01:29] <zeeshan> like ill monitor encoder position
[12:01:45] <zeeshan> and see if it looks like a oscillating wave ratehr than relying on sound
[12:02:10] <tjtr33> dunno, try 1 thing at a time. begin with controllable motion, then move on
[12:02:17] <zeeshan> okay
[12:02:43] <tjtr33> and your idea is what mfctrs do ( monitor least detectable unit of motion )
[12:03:25] <pcw_home> you do _not_ disconnect the tachometer you disconnect the analog input, apply 5v to the drive and check for 30V across the tachometer leads
[12:03:56] <tjtr33> correcct sorry i didnt see him open the drive loop
[12:03:56] <zeeshan> pcw_home: the reason i cant do that easily is because its one big ass molex connector that holds both tacho signal and analoginput.
[12:04:16] <zeeshan> i'd have to de-pin the analog input.
[12:04:37] <zeeshan> can i not just use analogout in hal to output 5V?
[12:04:46] <pcw_home> yes
[12:05:04] <pcw_home> but you still need to measure the RPM somehow
[12:05:34] <zeeshan> can't rely on the spec on the tachometer on the motor nameplate?
[12:05:41] <zeeshan> it should be 1500 rpm..
[12:06:34] <tjtr33> you pragmatically give it a velocity command and measure the actual rpm and note the tacho. the mfctr stuff is close, not exact
[12:06:45] <zeeshan> how are you supposed to measure it
[12:06:55] <zeeshan> i only have one of those retarded roller type handheld tachs.
[12:07:33] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7480/16082519967_4b00ab7e34_b.jpg
[12:07:39] <zeeshan> this is what i am dealing with
[12:07:46] <zeeshan> the red spade terminals are for the tachometer.
[12:07:55] <tjtr33> tacho output and velocity command with voltmeter, rpm with handheld tach. your work is as good as you can measure.
[12:07:58] <zeeshan> i can prolly stick a probe in there to measure voltage
[12:08:08] <zeeshan> i can set analogout to 5
[12:08:46] <tjtr33> oh you used the spade terminals, now you need 'volkswagon adapter'm at auto sture. they allowed dxtra devices to attach to fuse panels
[12:09:17] <tjtr33> they'll allow you to monitor the volatge w/o destroying the comnnections
[12:09:57] <zeeshan> the probe can stick from the butt side of the spade connector
[12:10:09] <zeeshan> the analog out will be hard to measure accurately ..
[12:10:16] <zeeshan> i can only measure it at the mesa terminals.
[12:10:21] <zeeshan> 7i77 terminals i mean
[12:10:34] <zeeshan> so it doesnt really account for the small voltage drop in the 3 feet of wire :)
[12:11:16] <tjtr33> vw adapters are male spade and female spade all on a short pc of metal, bent like a V, an 'intraconnector'
[12:11:26] <zeeshan> never seen those before
[12:11:42] <tjtr33> not finding pic yet
[12:12:14] <zeeshan> if i dont setup reference gain accurately
[12:12:36] <zeeshan> ie just rely on the fact that at 5v it should output 30V and assume thats 1500 rpm
[12:12:39] <zeeshan> is that a big deal?
[12:12:53] <zeeshan> (in terms of positional accuracy) later on
[12:14:14] <zeeshan> Turning this potentiometer counter-clockwise decreases the reference in gain, while setting this potentiometer in the fully clockwise position makes the whole range of drive output available. This potentiometer may be left in the fully clockwise position if a controller is used to close the velocity or position loops.
[12:14:35] <tjtr33> http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/product/737038/Uninsulated-Multi-Connector-Crimp-Vogt-Verbindungstechnik-383860
[12:14:36] <zeeshan> i somehow missed this in the manual lol
[12:14:47] <zeeshan> lol tjtr33
[12:14:54] <zeeshan> i've never seen that!
[12:16:35] <mozmck> pcw_home: are the 7i92 ready to sell yet?
[12:17:47] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: shoot, I need the ones that are the other way around
[12:18:08] <zeeshan> okay i'm about to do this (advise me not to if i'm doing something wrong!) .. my logic: in decoupled state: adjust loop gain pot on drive till motor oscillates, adjust offset gain pot on drive till little to no drift is present. adjust reference gain by giving a 5V signal from 7i77 (check this with a voltmeter too) and ensuring that tach output is 30V. after all this is done........
[12:18:52] <zeeshan> i can couple the motor back again to machine and retune loop gain and offset using the absolute encoder position to detect any motor movement.
[12:19:03] <zeeshan> after this, i am ready to get to the position loop tuning.
[12:19:23] <zeeshan> seems okay?
[12:20:32] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight:i think that thing tjtr33 posted can be built by using two spade connectors :D
[12:20:47] <zeeshan> and tack welding them :D
[12:27:42] <pcw_home> mozmck: yes they will be added to the store today
[12:28:53] <mozmck> pcw_home: can I call and order now?
[12:29:55] <Roguish> pcw_home: what's the good replacement for the 5i20? 5i24-16 or ???
[12:30:34] <Roguish> without a lot of rewiring....
[12:34:35] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: thanks for email
[12:37:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: no worries
[12:38:39] <PetefromTn_> Zeehshan congrats man it sounds like you are getting to the nitty gritty of setting up the machine. I am sure you are excited to see it moving finally LOL Good luck with it!
[12:38:56] <zeeshan> thanks PetefromTn_
[12:39:03] <zeeshan> did you have to do this when your cinci?
[12:39:28] <PetefromTn_> well yes and no.
[12:39:48] <PetefromTn_> because I bought motors that were matched to the drives and PRE-setup I avoided a lot of that stuff
[12:39:56] <zeeshan> ahhh
[12:40:07] <PetefromTn_> mostly what we had to do was get the linuxCNC to play nice with them and some mild tuning
[12:40:07] <zeeshan> you only pretty much had to do positional loop tuning
[12:40:15] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[12:40:32] <PetefromTn_> when I powered up the motors and drives the first time they locked down and were almost ready to run already
[12:40:37] <PetefromTn_> outside of the machine
[12:40:38] <zeeshan> haha so lucky!
[12:40:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah but that came at a cost
[12:40:59] <zeeshan> lots of$$?
[12:41:01] <PetefromTn_> luckily I was able to sell off a lot of the original parts and pay for it
[12:41:32] <zeeshan> were they like 1000 bux each? :)
[12:41:36] <PetefromTn_> yeah but honestly it is worth it to have premade cables, preset drives, and whatnot
[12:41:40] <PetefromTn_> yeah about that
[12:41:56] <PetefromTn_> if I can swing it for the lathe I plan to do the same thing..
[12:41:57] <zeeshan> well ill tell you what
[12:42:00] <zeeshan> this is definitely a learning exp.
[12:42:06] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know
[12:42:10] <PetefromTn_> been listening
[12:42:11] <zeeshan> a pain in the ass too
[12:42:20] <PetefromTn_> I am sure
[12:42:23] <malcom2073> Can't wait until I get to go through the same pain zeeshan :-D
[12:42:32] <zeeshan> if i can make this work, i can help others too :)
[12:42:39] <PetefromTn_> exactly...
[12:42:55] <zeeshan> haha malcom2073
[12:43:16] <malcom2073> Two weeks and I'll have my machine here. I plan on unmount the servos and fiddle with them in parallel to taking it apart and cleaning the rust off
[12:43:27] <jdh> what machine?
[12:43:34] <zeeshan> jdh
[12:43:36] <zeeshan> lathe progress?
[12:43:42] <malcom2073> got a clausing/kondia mill
[12:43:42] <zeeshan> still diving season?
[12:43:56] <jdh> freezing season right now.
[12:43:58] <zeeshan> hahaha
[12:44:06] <jdh> it got down to 0c here :(
[12:44:08] <zeeshan> jdh: i'd really like to redo my x-axis..
[12:44:13] <jdh> me too
[12:44:19] <zeeshan> it makes the footprint of the machine a lot lamer.
[12:44:33] <jdh> fortunately, I have such limited options that I don't have to worry much about it.
[12:44:50] <zeeshan> i'm thinking of just making a custom slide
[12:44:54] <jdh> I shall hang the motor off the back and mount the screw on teh tailstock slide.
[12:44:56] <zeeshan> to ride on the carriage.. with adequate clearance.
[12:45:09] <jdh> that would be the best solution.
[12:45:21] <jdh> without the compound, there is no need for it to be that thin
[12:45:27] <zeeshan> yea
[12:45:45] <PetefromTn_> just finished milling another Picatinny rail mount
[12:45:51] <jdh> it is currently build-a-new-bike season.
[12:45:57] <zeeshan> jdh: hehe
[12:46:08] <zeeshan> nice pete
[12:46:31] <jdh> the guys that weld Ti bikes do an amazing job
[12:46:52] <zeeshan> i have never tried welding titanium
[12:47:02] <zeeshan> shielding it doesnt work at all
[12:47:03] <PetefromTn_> I have Tig welded some steel recumbent bikes for my friends company before..kind of a PIA
[12:47:07] <zeeshan> i have tried. but never succesfully..
[12:47:20] <zeeshan> you gotta pretty much do this:
[12:47:25] <PetefromTn_> they had a massive steel plate fixture..
[12:47:27] <zeeshan> https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8p1OBrhU.CcA_qKJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzOTNvZG9kBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAM2MTk4YTJiN2ZiZWRiNTNkMGMzZGY0YWJkN2FjODZkYQRncG9zAzE0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Dtitanium%2Bwelding%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D14&w=2560&h=1920&imgurl=www2.vistal.pl%2Fwp-
[12:47:29] <zeeshan> er.
[12:47:34] <zeeshan> https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608005221646467286&pid=15.1&P=0
[12:47:48] <jdh> no you don't
[12:48:16] <PetefromTn_> no bubble boy?
[12:48:16] <zeeshan> how do you stop it from going white
[12:48:31] <zeeshan> my welds instantly went white with a gas lens
[12:49:22] <jdh> http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/weld-ti-630px-2.jpg
[12:49:36] <zeeshan> do you know what titanium alloy?
[12:49:57] <jdh> 3al/2.5v
[12:50:17] <zeeshan> hm
[12:50:21] <zeeshan> im just a fail then :)
[12:51:38] <CaptHindsight> have you tired welding it in an oxygen free atmosphere?
[13:02:56] <_methods> you shouldh't have told him to go to an oxygen free environment
[13:03:31] <pcw_home> :-(
[13:06:56] <CaptHindsight> lol
[13:08:48] <CaptHindsight> no wonder we have to keep hiring new welders
[13:09:32] <jdh> better training perhaps.
[13:17:35] <_methods> heheh
[13:29:29] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/S6SIdyW.jpg http://i.imgur.com/RJPKdHj.jpg Another set of Picatinny Feinwerkbau rails completed!! Going out this afternoon..
[13:32:35] <jdh> Pretty.
[13:32:44] <jdh> you need an anodizing line
[13:34:13] <PetefromTn_> yup sure do.
[13:34:18] <PetefromTn_> Working on that actually.
[13:34:42] <PetefromTn_> I really am going to be needing it once the CNC lathe comes online the race shop guys have a lot of COLOR requests..hehe
[13:34:54] <jdh> they are ADDICTED to it
[13:35:11] <PetefromTn_> LOL I see what you did there...
[13:35:31] <jdh> heh... I saw their ad for your battery covers.
[13:35:51] <jdh> it's not really stalking
[13:36:40] <PetefromTn_> yeah they make some cool stuff and are some nice guys. I am hoping to be doing a lot more work with them in the future.
[13:37:51] <PetefromTn_> I swear once you have a working program for a cool part it is just nice to sit there and watch it work and make your part. This is one of several I made and the only differences are the droop compensation angles...
[13:39:41] <jdh> anyone know of vendors that could put a GUI front end on a Tormach or something similar size for a dedicated engraving machine (0.074" wide cut in 304SS)
[13:40:38] <PetefromTn_> you bought a tormach? hehe
[13:40:59] <jdh> nope, but it would fit nicely and would be adequate for the task.
[13:41:41] <PetefromTn_> I do a lot of engraving with this .020" tip single point setup in the Cinci but have not tried stainless yet. I am sure it would work tho..
[13:43:01] <jdh> this is a plain 3-flute centercutting end mill
[13:44:08] <zeeshan_> ok guys
[13:44:12] <zeeshan_> theyre finally tune.
[13:44:14] <zeeshan_> TUNED
[13:44:22] <zeeshan_> reference gain was the problem
[13:47:16] <tjtr33> <rimshot>
[13:47:21] <zeeshan_> hehe
[13:47:29] <PetefromTn_> nic
[13:47:31] <PetefromTn_> nice
[13:47:35] <zeeshan_> can finally get to position tuning
[13:47:46] <PetefromTn_> get er done man!
[13:47:49] <zeeshan_> yea!!
[13:47:56] <zeeshan_> i thought the servos were bad or something
[13:48:00] <zeeshan_> but they were just oscillating
[13:48:08] <zeeshan_> it almost sounds likea bearing grinding
[13:48:30] <zeeshan_> i was expecting more of a loud humm during oscillation
[14:13:43] <zeeshan> might be a silly q
[14:14:00] <zeeshan> but is there anyway to figure out what the motor scale is without knowing specs of the pulleys?
[14:14:09] <zeeshan> screw is likely 5mm pitch
[14:15:06] <skunkworks> heh - your going to have to know one of the two...
[14:15:27] <zeeshan> well im pretty sure its 5mm pitch
[14:15:48] <zeeshan> how i found it was like this:
[14:15:55] <skunkworks> well - I guess you could just physically measure an abitrary move and figure it out
[14:16:06] <zeeshan> put in dial indicator on the table. rotated screw
[14:16:08] <zeeshan> moved 10 thou
[14:16:18] <zeeshan> er. nm
[14:16:25] <zeeshan> that was to check encoder scale.
[14:16:46] <zeeshan> skunkworks: yea im thinking it should be possible :D
[14:17:45] <zeeshan> do i need to close the position loop first
[14:18:03] <zeeshan> i think i am confusing myself :)
[14:19:27] <zeeshan> i did open loop test in pncconf and verified when moving to +x encoder count is also +
[14:19:52] <zeeshan> stuck on the scale part
[14:22:14] <zeeshan> also to double check , does linuxcnc use right hand rule to determine axes directions? if you're facing the machine, +x tmoves table to your right, +y moves table away from you, +z moves table up
[14:22:48] <cradek> yes it's right-handed, but you're confused about what that means
[14:22:59] <cradek> it's the TOOL motion that is right-handed
[14:23:19] <cradek> so if the tool is still and the table moves, +X makes the table move left so you CUT to the right
[14:23:52] <PetefromTn_> yup
[14:25:24] <zeeshan> whoops you're right
[14:32:03] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: go with solvent dye vs water dye baths for anodizing, you'll be able to do all sorts of things that not many can
[14:32:09] <zeeshan> cappt...
[14:32:09] <zeeshan> hi!
[14:32:13] <zeeshan> can you use fedex?
[14:32:21] <zeeshan> i got the the info for fedex..
[14:32:24] <zeeshan> school doesnt use ups
[14:32:37] <CaptHindsight> I HATE Fedex, but I can use them
[14:32:46] <zeeshan> :(
[14:32:56] <zeeshan> im gonna forward you the email
[14:32:57] <CaptHindsight> lousy service here
[14:34:26] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: you guys do fancy s tuff at your company
[14:34:51] <zeeshan> hi andy!
[14:35:26] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight Thanks for the tips man..
[14:35:33] <PetefromTn_> do you do a lot of this?
[14:35:40] <andypugh> I am confused by G3
[14:35:52] <zeeshan> g-code?
[14:35:57] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: you can brush, spray, dip, splash, etc it on
[14:36:00] <andypugh> Though the problem might just have ocurred to me.
[14:36:15] <PetefromTn_> got a link to the type you are recommending?
[14:36:44] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: and you don't have to worry about temp, ph, or how it's been since it was anodized, I can still color stuff years old and then seal
[14:37:15] <PetefromTn_> sweet sounds like you have a lot of experience with this.
[14:37:27] <PetefromTn_> Do you have pictures of your anodization station setup?
[14:37:40] <andypugh> http://imagebin.ca/v/1oGV3BuEoYon ?
[14:37:53] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: it's like any other lab setup, only without color tanks
[14:37:53] <zeeshan> hey.
[14:37:56] <zeeshan> inverted sine wave.
[14:38:07] <andypugh> Not what I expected
[14:38:10] <CaptHindsight> you can screen print or even inkjet it on
[14:38:31] <zeeshan> andypugh: help me tune :(
[14:38:33] <PetefromTn_> what do you use for a power source for the anodes?
[14:38:47] <andypugh> I am not a tuning expert
[14:38:51] <zeeshan> liues
[14:38:51] <cradek> andypugh: in the wrong plane?
[14:38:54] <andypugh> Have you seen JTs tutorial?
[14:39:05] <zeeshan> yes i have
[14:39:10] <zeeshan> im stuck at the preliminary steps.
[14:39:20] <zeeshan> i'm confused on how to figure out my encoder scale
[14:39:26] <andypugh> cradek: I reckon that is the problem. But I would expect an error, not a sine wave...
[14:39:28] <zeeshan> i dont have specs on the pulleys.
[14:39:41] <cradek> isn't it several helixes?
[14:39:55] <cradek> full circle (J only) with Z offset makes a helix
[14:40:34] <cradek> not that I transcribed and loaded your gcode
[14:40:59] <andypugh> Yes, being in the right plane and using K rather than J has the right effect.
[14:41:58] <andypugh> I guess a helix makes sense, but it is interesting that a Y-word in lathe G-code is an error, but a helical move in Y insn’t.
[14:42:07] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: you can mix your own colors using Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black and only mix what you need, not a whole bath
[14:42:09] <cradek> it's a bug (missing error check) that you're given Y motion when you have no Y
[14:42:23] <andypugh> Pretty, though.
[14:42:35] <cradek> you happened to get it without typing "Y" into your gcode, which is what gives you the "wtf y" error
[14:42:40] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMYK_color_model
[14:42:41] <cradek> clever of you!
[14:43:06] <andypugh> Whenever you make things idiot-proof the universe makes a better idiot.
[14:43:30] <PetefromTn_> you said solvent dye's what brand and source?
[14:44:20] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: if you want to test it out you can buy some shoe dye and mix it with methanol (denatured alcohol)
[14:44:29] <andypugh> zeeshan: zero the encoders (setp hm2…..encoder.00.reset 1 ) then move the axis exactly 1” on a dial gauge by hand.
[14:44:30] <zeeshan_> im a prime example of andy's comment
[14:44:46] <CaptHindsight> if you want to get dry powder by the Kg I can hook you up
[14:44:59] <PetefromTn_> I would definitely like to test it out but what I am asking is what brand and source do you use and where do you get it
[14:45:00] <zeeshan_> andypugh, okay
[14:45:02] <zeeshan_> that makes sense.
[14:45:07] <andypugh> See how many counts you see. Then try to figure out a round number that explains that
[14:45:13] <PetefromTn_> so it comes as a dry powder?
[14:45:18] <zeeshan_> andypugh, just wanna make sure also when i press +x in pncconf, table moves left
[14:45:24] <zeeshan_> and my encounter position is increasing
[14:45:43] <zeeshan_> i can still expect a run away despite those being the same?
[14:45:48] <andypugh> Ah well, in that case just guess something about right.
[14:45:51] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: we make our own, I can get you the dye. You can by denatured alcohol locally
[14:45:58] <zeeshan_> when the pos feedback loop comes into play
[14:45:59] <PetefromTn_> nice
[14:46:31] <PetefromTn_> I am trying to figure out what is best to use for the power supply I have seen folks use the larger car battery chargers etc...
[14:46:59] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: I Kg of dye powder will make you 55-200 gallons of dye that where you have virtually no waste
[14:47:11] <PetefromTn_> probably just want some red/blue/black to start playing with it..
[14:47:45] <PetefromTn_> it is probably expensive tho huh..
[14:47:49] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: yeah, for just getting the feel of it you can use battery chargers
[14:48:02] <PetefromTn_> what do you use?
[14:48:18] <zeeshan_> 0.060" = 0.0599216
[14:48:19] <zeeshan_> lol
[14:48:21] <CaptHindsight> we build our own supplies
[14:48:22] <zeeshan_> how is this already scaled
[14:48:38] <zeeshan_> i GUESSED that number.
[14:48:42] <zeeshan_> based on whati thought pulley sizes were
[14:48:45] <PetefromTn_> the supply is based on the part size I suppose?
[14:49:02] <CaptHindsight> yes, current vs area
[14:49:08] <CaptHindsight> http://www.caswellplating.com/electroplating-anodizing/power-supplies.html
[14:49:54] <CaptHindsight> or even http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/mastech-power-supply
[14:50:50] <PetefromTn_> you have seen most of the parts I make a lot of them are around ten inches long or so and usually 2-3" wide or less. Got a recommendation?
[14:51:42] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: ebay... let me see
[14:52:01] <PetefromTn_> do you just use some rubbermaid containers or do you have something specific?
[14:52:18] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: we have PP tanks
[14:52:34] <CaptHindsight> but the tough rubbermaid will work if you support them
[14:52:49] <CaptHindsight> they get flexible when warm
[14:52:53] <PetefromTn_> OK I can get some tough rubbermaid containers at Wally world
[14:53:02] <CaptHindsight> and you don't want acid bath on your floor and feet
[14:53:05] <PetefromTn_> or home depot
[14:53:20] <PetefromTn_> no definitely not
[14:53:52] <CaptHindsight> you can also find used chillers on ebay or use an aquarium type
[14:54:06] <PetefromTn_> so you have a clean bath, the anodizing tank, then a desmut, another cleaning tank etc?
[14:54:35] <PetefromTn_> temp is important huh?
[14:54:56] <CaptHindsight> for water color baths it's critical
[14:55:12] <CaptHindsight> for anodizing you want to keep the temp from getting to hot
[14:55:48] <PetefromTn_> but you are using this solvent bath colorization right does it also need to be cooled?
[14:56:01] <CaptHindsight> you can actually get a small tank to near boiling, temp effects the buildup of the anodic layer
[14:56:17] <CaptHindsight> solvent doesn't need any temp control
[14:56:52] <PetefromTn_> but you don't want it hot right? I watched a couple videos about it but just getting started to look into this.
[14:56:56] <CaptHindsight> you don't even need a bath for it, spray booth, or a tank to catch it when you sponge or brush it on
[14:57:05] <dr0w> if part is 6000/7000 series you don't need to desmut
[14:57:08] <PetefromTn_> oh nice.
[14:57:17] <CaptHindsight> anodizing produces heat
[14:57:28] <PetefromTn_> most of the stuff I make is 6000/7000
[14:57:37] <PetefromTn_> sure
[14:58:10] <CaptHindsight> temperature effects the pore size and rate of growth
[14:58:17] <dr0w> if you want to anodize small parts, you can get consistent good results in a garage..
[14:58:28] <PetefromTn_> define small
[14:58:31] <CaptHindsight> if it gets too hot you won't get a good anodic layer
[14:58:38] <dr0w> otherwise get a handful together as the anodizing shops charge per lot
[14:58:48] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: your size parts
[14:58:55] <PetefromTn_> OK
[14:59:04] <CaptHindsight> not 4 x 8' sheets or aluminum
[14:59:10] <CaptHindsight> or/of
[14:59:12] <PetefromTn_> yeah I have a source for sending stuff out I have not used yet
[14:59:59] <PetefromTn_> but I really want to do it in house and experiment with splash anodizing etc.
[15:00:28] <dr0w> if the parts are fairly small (again.. relative) you can get away with a car charger
[15:00:55] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: you can solvent dye certain areas and then water bath dye the whole part/background
[15:01:05] <CaptHindsight> thats how they do the splash
[15:01:05] <dr0w> also if they are small relative to your acid bath tank, you won't have to deal with heat issues
[15:01:06] <PetefromTn_> I have a small one but I understand the larger wheeled ones are more suited to this. Honestly with the prices of those from automation whatever it is pretty cheap.
[15:01:49] <dr0w> rit clothes dye works, but it isn't UV resistant
[15:02:02] <CaptHindsight> rit is water based
[15:02:28] <PetefromTn_> so the splash is solvent first?
[15:02:57] <dr0w> the last tank is a nickel acetate solution to seal the dye in
[15:02:59] <CaptHindsight> yes, solvent splash then dry (1 minute) it stays in the pores blocking the next step...
[15:03:05] <CaptHindsight> water based dye bath
[15:03:15] <dr0w> it's the 'hot' tank
[15:03:31] <CaptHindsight> the solvent dye won't wash out when placed in the water dye bath or sealing tank
[15:03:55] <CaptHindsight> thats another reason why it's easier to get very dark/saturated colors with solvent dye
[15:04:27] <zeeshan_> 25400
[15:04:32] <CaptHindsight> all dyes are not UV resistant
[15:04:45] <PetefromTn_> OK so the brighter and deeper colors will block the water based ones.
[15:05:10] <CaptHindsight> dyes actually go into solution so you end up with dye molecules that are rather easily broken down by UV exposure
[15:05:24] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: any solvent will block water based
[15:05:31] <CaptHindsight> so color doesn't matter :)
[15:05:53] <PetefromTn_> after you apply the solvent dye do you need to remove it or dip it in something before you do the water based dye?
[15:06:01] <CaptHindsight> you can solvent dye light pastel and then have a black water dye and it won't cover the solvent areas
[15:06:13] <PetefromTn_> nice
[15:06:34] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: no, you just wait for it to dry, the methanol evaporates out
[15:08:13] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: the solvent dye stays in the pores and blocks any water dye from entering
[15:08:59] <CaptHindsight> the problem with water dye is that it tends to leach out during the sealing step
[15:09:26] <zeeshan> andypugh: after doing a couple tests, i keep getting encoder scale 25400
[15:09:34] <furrywolf> I've found most annodized things to be extremely NOT uv-resistant... leave an annodized part outside for a summer and the color is gone.
[15:09:42] <zeeshan> is it a concidence its a multiple of 25.4 lol
[15:09:50] <cradek> uhh no
[15:09:58] <CaptHindsight> UV resistant anodizing is something I don't share the secrets to
[15:09:59] <cradek> that's a micron
[15:10:01] <cradek> it's not an accident
[15:10:05] <andypugh> No, it probably means that you have metric screws and 1000 pulses per rev.
[15:10:19] <zeeshan> i figured the inch to mm part
[15:10:20] <andypugh> Or are these linear scales?
[15:10:22] <zeeshan> but the 1000 part makes sense.
[15:10:26] <zeeshan> andypugh: yes linear scales
[15:10:27] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: yes, since dyes are not UV resistant
[15:10:43] <andypugh> If you had said that we could have told you the encoder scale immediately...
[15:10:43] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: you have to color the anodize differently
[15:11:17] <PetefromTn_> Thanks Capt I am going to watch some more youtube vids and when I get something put together here I will get with you about maybe getting some of that powders..
[15:11:21] <zeeshan> andypugh: how?
[15:11:25] <zeeshan> still dont know the pulley size
[15:11:33] <andypugh> You don’t need to.
[15:11:42] <andypugh> The encoders are 100% independent of the pulleys
[15:11:46] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: anodize a few pieces and then try the shoe dye first
[15:11:48] <zeeshan> duhh
[15:11:48] <zeeshan> hahaha
[15:12:01] <zeeshan> i'm so stupid sometimes.
[15:12:03] <zeeshan> i need to think
[15:12:08] <PetefromTn_> why?
[15:12:10] <zeeshan> brian is in shutdown mode lately
[15:12:15] <zeeshan> *brain
[15:12:21] <furrywolf> lol! my neighbor has reached a new level of redneckness... his car leaks power steering fluid. the leak has been getting worse. rather than fixing it, he bought a couple 5gal pails of hydraulic fluid from the tractor store.
[15:12:30] <zeeshan> i need to go TA right now, im gonna tune more after
[15:12:33] <zeeshan> thanks guys.
[15:12:34] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: the main thing you'll have to be concerned with are the methanol fumes
[15:12:53] <furrywolf> if you have only linear encoders, and no rotary encoders, the pulley size isn't something you need to know exactly...
[15:12:57] <dr0w> the fumes from the anodizing tank aren't awesome ;)
[15:12:59] <CaptHindsight> they may ignite
[15:13:12] <PetefromTn_> Oh that's not good heh
[15:13:15] <zeeshan> yea you just need to know pulses.
[15:13:18] <furrywolf> that's ok. just tell the fire department your still exploded.
[15:13:18] <zeeshan> which i didnt know
[15:13:22] <zeeshan> makes sense.
[15:13:25] <CaptHindsight> but it's like working with any other solvent based ink, paint or coating
[15:13:31] <zeeshan> im retarded =)
[15:13:46] <PetefromTn_> I am kinda used to spraying solvent based finishes and whatnot here...
[15:13:47] <CaptHindsight> use proper ventilation, no smoking or welding nearby etc
[15:14:04] <PetefromTn_> sure
[15:14:51] <CaptHindsight> or lasers :)
[15:15:02] <zeeshan> how does linuxcnc know to output 5V for how long
[15:15:07] <zeeshan> = movement of x amount?
[15:15:19] <Jymmm> zeeshan: VooDoo
[15:15:22] <PetefromTn_> my wife has this big stainless pot she gets at the local kitchen supply that is pretty big would that be usable for this or not?
[15:15:25] <zeeshan> Jymmm: haha
[15:15:56] <zeeshan> see coming from steppers has thrown me off.
[15:16:05] <zeeshan> im assuming the way it does it is through feedback.
[15:16:17] <zeeshan> it keeps turning the motor at the desired speed and continuously monitors encoder
[15:16:26] <zeeshan> and stops when it gets to a range of the target
[15:16:39] <furrywolf> now you need to read up on pid tuning.
[15:16:41] <zeeshan> im so just to thinking the stepper rotation dicates movement
[15:16:41] <zeeshan> haha
[15:16:47] <zeeshan> *used
[15:16:50] <Jymmm> zeeshan: wait till you see the whites of their eyes
[15:17:01] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i have done all this stuff in theory
[15:17:10] <zeeshan> but really you get to see how well you understand it in practice
[15:17:14] <furrywolf> in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice.
[15:17:15] <zeeshan> clearly i didnt understand it that well!
[15:17:29] <PCW> Both feed forward and feedback are used
[15:17:31] <PCW> when you command a move, the PID component forward the proper velocity command to the drive (via the FF1 term)
[15:17:37] <PCW> forwards
[15:17:43] <Jymmm> furrywolf: You'll love this... HTTPS EVERYTHING https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/certificate-authority-encrypt-entire-web
[15:17:56] <zeeshan> i always asked the question -- why do we need control theory
[15:18:00] <zeeshan> and today i finally understand it.
[15:18:21] <zeeshan> you need control theory whenever you have a feedback loop
[15:18:35] <zeeshan> even though i knew that before word for word, i didnt understand that
[15:18:44] <zeeshan> till seeing it in practice. this is really good exp.
[15:20:07] <PCW> Since there are small errors in the velocity, these are corrected in the position loop (via the P term)
[15:20:41] <zeeshan> yea i noticed the encoder position moving slightly even in open loop
[15:20:46] <zeeshan> cause i dont have drift completely eliminated
[15:21:26] <zeeshan> will follow jt's tuning guide when i come home
[15:21:31] <zeeshan> hopefully idont crash anything!
[15:21:32] <PCW> there is drift and the fact the velocity scaling is never perfect
[15:21:53] <furrywolf> blocks of softwood at the ends of your travel.
[15:22:02] <zeeshan> furrywolf: they are there :)
[15:22:14] <PCW> (this is true of all digital drives as well velocity sensing always goes to hell at lower speeds)
[15:22:36] <zeeshan> PCW: in school they taught is in terms of disturbances
[15:22:55] <zeeshan> but they explained in terms of temperature, pressure fluctuation
[15:23:18] <PCW> yes for example cutting forces are a disturbance input
[15:23:52] <zeeshan> im so suprised that i completely got A- in that course, understood is really well in terms of theory
[15:23:57] <zeeshan> but never closed the link between practice and theory
[15:24:59] <zeeshan> okay enough ranting :)
[15:26:28] <mozmck> From all I hear that is quite typical for college education.
[15:28:17] <mozmck> PCW: the blue text on your webstore is hard to read against the grey background.
[15:28:55] <PCW> I thought they changed that, let me take a look
[15:29:12] <mozmck> oh interesting - that is only in grid view
[15:29:21] <mozmck> list view looks fine.
[15:37:57] <bobo_> PetefromTn: methanol fire is not as readly seen by me as other burning stuff. also think about acid fumes munching on that Cinn. borrow Conners R.V.?
[15:38:17] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: for coloring yes, not for anodizing
[15:39:24] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: methanol doesn't do much to the rubbermaid containers
[15:40:32] <dr0w> they will munch on your clothes too ;)
[15:41:04] <CaptHindsight> the solvent doesn't have to be methanol, it's just cheap and easy to get
[15:41:31] <bobo_> CaptHindsight What Voltage and Current would Pete need ? DC i think , but how about ripple values
[15:42:53] <CaptHindsight> http://www.luster-on.com/AnodizingbyConstantCurrentDensity_001.pdf
[15:43:19] <CaptHindsight> http://www.anodizing.org/Anodizing/processes.html
[15:47:04] <PetefromTn_> just watched a video by caswell plating where they used entirely 5 Gallon buckets.. I suppose that if it works for them it would work for me?
[15:48:57] <dr0w> probably mostly dependent on your part geometry
[15:49:27] <PetefromTn_> Well I gotta head down to the post office to mail out this part I machined today. Be back in a bit. Thanks for all the help Captain and others..
[16:10:21] <andypugh> PCW: Have you seen the VMC retrofit thread? He is looking to use Mesa boards, but can’t decide between keeping the encoders and finding EXE boxes or replacing the encoders. Do you have any thoughts?
[16:10:48] <andypugh> Encoders are 128 line sinusoidal Heidenhain.
[16:14:14] <PCW> I guess it depends on the cost/trouble to install new encoders vs the cost of exe boxes
[16:14:55] <PCW> (sometimes very cheap on Ebay)
[16:15:45] <andypugh> I know a guy using the ichaus demo boards
[16:15:56] <andypugh> (I just remembered)
[16:22:04] <LeelooMinai> Can I get some rough tips as to small end mills for aluminum? (ER11, so I think up to 8mm or 5/16 inch) What am I looking for in terms of material, number of flutes maybe, or geometry?
[16:22:46] <cradek> can you use 3/8? there are lovely 3/8 roughers
[16:23:44] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, I just bought 15 piece collet set from China. Let me see.
[16:24:32] <LeelooMinai> Seems like 1/4 inch, then 6.5 and 7mm are the biggest ones, so maybe not
[16:25:05] <cradek> how fast is your spindle?
[16:25:12] <LeelooMinai> But you know, I can always buy smaller ones
[16:25:38] <LeelooMinai> The spindle is in the mail:), but it's one of the CHines 800watt, 24krpm spindles with 4 bearings
[16:25:56] <LeelooMinai> And will have VFD for that, eventually
[16:27:04] <LeelooMinai> Are mills like that suitable/useful? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-6mm-Four-4-Flute-HSS-Aluminium-End-Mill-Cutter-CNC-Bit/1194966125.html
[16:28:07] <cradek> for 1/4" on aluminum I'd try to find 3 flute actually
[16:28:09] <LeelooMinai> Do I want 4 flutes for alu, or less... I don't know:) Need to start with something.
[16:28:14] <cradek> if you can't find 3, 2 is better than 4
[16:28:16] <andypugh> HSS bits tend to be harder to break than carbide ones
[16:28:42] <cradek> those are so small that solid carbide is cheap
[16:28:45] <LeelooMinai> Yes, well, I won't be milling steel - not sure if I need carbide for alu... maybe not?
[16:28:56] <cradek> depends how much stickout you need
[16:29:17] <cradek> at 1/4 HSS gets floppy really fast, carbide is much stiffer
[16:29:54] <LeelooMinai> Why is less flutes better? The get clogged with aluminum?
[16:29:59] <cradek> yes
[16:30:02] <cradek> you need the chips to come out
[16:30:14] <cradek> are you cutting dry or flooded?
[16:30:48] <LeelooMinai> It's a small setup in my room - if I can get away with fluids it would be nice.
[16:30:55] <LeelooMinai> without*
[16:30:57] <cradek> enco doesn't have roughers smaller than 3/8 shank
[16:31:01] <andypugh> Don’t buy these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121260862810
[16:31:24] <cradek> nor aluminum cutting
[16:31:26] <LeelooMinai> They look rough:)
[16:31:30] <cradek> hmm
[16:31:37] <andypugh> Yes, they look horrible if you zoom in
[16:31:51] <LeelooMinai> Like some filed tham by hand:p
[16:32:32] <LeelooMinai> Ok, how about different types of those end mills. I understand there are some for rough work and some for finishing?
[16:32:48] <cradek> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=619-1355&PMPXNO=16719108&PARTPG=INLMK32
[16:33:11] <cradek> roughers have teeth on them and they chew through material really nicely but leave a jagged finish
[16:33:21] <LeelooMinai> I am in Canada, so I cannot really biy anything from US
[16:33:34] <cradek> but I don't know if 1/4 roughers exist.
[16:33:41] <cradek> ah so you do actually want metrics
[16:33:59] <LeelooMinai> lol, you think Canada is metric?
[16:34:24] * cradek shrugs
[16:34:41] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: Try eBay
[16:34:42] <LeelooMinai> Well, when I arrived in Canada once I though so too... then went to some hardware store and spoke in mm and everyone thought I am an alien.
[16:34:43] <cradek> I suppose it's an uncomfortable mishmash like here, except maybe different
[16:35:23] <andypugh> Bathroom scales come with a stones and pounds setting. As far as I know that is ony for old UK folk.
[16:35:26] <LeelooMinai> Probably 90% or more imperial
[16:35:58] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-863/CARBIDE-ENDMILL-HRC50--dsh-/Detail
[16:36:44] <LeelooMinai> So this "normal" kind is for more or less good finish?
[16:36:50] <cradek> andypugh: wow those ebay endmills are amazing
[16:36:57] <cradek> it's like they forgot some manufacturing steps
[16:37:11] <andypugh> I am surprised they have the nerve to put up a photo
[16:37:38] <LeelooMinai> Well, I guess sometimes even such end mills can be useful - like milling wood or something:)
[16:38:01] <andypugh> _Maybe_ modelboard
[16:38:28] <LeelooMinai> I don't think anyone sane would buy them to mill stainless steel or something like that:p
[16:40:11] <LeelooMinai> btw, today I broke a small drill and it got stuck in an alu plate... Is there any way of removing those?
[16:40:35] <andypugh> Drill through from the other side and push it out?
[16:40:40] <LeelooMinai> Or I should leave it there if I can make the hole in other place?
[16:41:13] <LeelooMinai> Right, from the other side, ok
[16:41:15] <cradek> put it in alum+water and heat it in the oven for a few hours
[16:41:32] <cradek> it will rust away
[16:41:37] <andypugh> One of my stepper mounts has a broken drill in it, and an allen-head screw head glued over the top :-)
[16:41:42] <cradek> haha
[16:42:04] <LeelooMinai> andypugh: ...
[16:42:32] <cradek> (my answer is serious, by the way)
[16:42:58] <LeelooMinai> cradek: Doesn't look like so:)
[16:43:13] <cradek> I've done it with brass and gold, but not aluminum, but I bet it works
[16:43:34] <andypugh> No, I have heard that you can rust-out steel in aluminium. You only need to shrink it enough to come loose
[16:43:41] <LeelooMinai> Assuming the drill bit rusts at all...
[16:43:46] <cradek> oh it will
[16:44:02] <LeelooMinai> It was one of those titanium coated ones
[16:44:10] <cradek> lots of alum (a whole container from the spice aisle at the grocery) and heat
[16:44:11] <LeelooMinai> titanoum oxide that is
[16:44:31] <Deejay> gn8
[16:44:38] <cradek> the broken part is not coated
[16:44:44] <cradek> you might have to be patient
[16:44:53] <LeelooMinai> Wait, you can buy aluminium at grocery store? :p
[16:45:00] <cradek> ALUM not aluminum
[16:45:07] <cradek> you use it to make pickles or something
[16:45:17] <LeelooMinai> lol
[16:45:49] <cradek> bbl
[16:46:13] <furrywolf> yeah, those ebay endmills... maybe they were told make roughing ones, but just made rough ones instead? lol
[16:46:21] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum#Culinary
[16:47:21] <furrywolf> you can buy tap dissolver, but it's stupidly expensive.
[16:48:12] <furrywolf> if you have access, drill from the back, then punch it out.
[16:48:52] <furrywolf> doesn't need to be a full-size hole, just big enough to get a punch in
[16:49:12] <SpeedEvil> EDM isn't that hard to make
[16:49:15] <cradek> "Alum solution has the property of dissolving steels while not affecting aluminium or base metals, and can be used to recover workpieces made in these metals with broken toolbits lodged inside them [5]"
[16:49:52] <cradek> and at the bottom [5] says "cradek says so"
[16:52:02] <furrywolf> I think those chinese endmills are the ones they use to make chinese products intended for export, from the machining I've seen on things I've bought...
[16:59:22] <roycroft> i tell you, the fit and finish of the chinese stuff varies quite a bit
[16:59:28] <roycroft> with grizzly and jet being amongst the best
[16:59:40] <roycroft> but the fasterners they use are utter crap, no matter what quality you get
[16:59:59] <roycroft> when i buy a chinese machine i plan on replacing every nut, bolt, washer, and screw immediately
[17:00:18] <roycroft> i think they make their fasteners out of pot metal
[17:00:58] <furrywolf> my favorite is still the bolts on certain chinese satellite dish to pole mount adapters... they were 5/16" bolts, nickel plated, about 2" long. you'd put a ratchet on them, go to tighten them,... and they'd instantly bend 90 degrees, flat against the surface. wtf?!
[17:03:28] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, this looks like it may work well: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-outlets-D150-W16-d12-7-Grit-180-diamond-resin-grinding-wheel-carbide-Sharpening/1377943189.html