#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-01-13

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[00:00:02] <[cube]> any recommendation for anoother plastic to work with?
[00:00:18] <[cube]> a spool of nylon 645 will cost me $50 shipped :x
[00:00:37] <[cube]> i've also got ABS...which i haven't tried yet
[00:00:56] <Computer_Barf> im not sure , i dont know how abs is affected by oil , but ABS can be made water tight with misting, or a misting chamber with acetone
[00:01:10] <[cube]> yeah i can see that
[00:01:34] <Computer_Barf> i mean oil is usually stored in hdpe but its shit for printing
[00:01:44] <[cube]> ever thoguth of making your own PVA dissolvable support filament?
[00:02:08] <Computer_Barf> it shrinks at least 1 percent , so it pops off the bed or warps badly
[00:02:28] <[cube]> hmm
[00:02:43] <[cube]> could desing that into the part and add a thick base layer?
[00:02:52] <Computer_Barf> no ive not considered it, do you suppose pva is available in powder or pellets?
[00:02:56] <[cube]> just asking because it's crazy expensive
[00:03:20] <[cube]> not sure, all I know is its available in liquid jugs
[00:03:29] <[cube]> and that wood glue is mostly pva (i think)
[00:03:36] <Computer_Barf> do you have a mill or router or anything like that
[00:03:53] <[cube]> nothing CNC (yet)
[00:04:00] <Computer_Barf> you could try 3d milling your part
[00:04:02] <[cube]> just manual mill, manual lathe, and 3d printer
[00:04:46] <[cube]> i wonder if you could mix sawdust and wood glue
[00:04:49] <[cube]> and extrude that
[00:04:53] <[cube]> that would dissolve nicely
[00:05:33] <Computer_Barf> I save the polyproplene containers from our household waste, and use a pid'd kiln outside to melt them into an oiled aluminum tray into a big block
[00:06:01] <Computer_Barf> ive not yet milled it but i have a nice stack of polyproplene blocks ready for when i get my mill cnc'd
[00:06:19] <[cube]> for practice or parts?
[00:07:31] <Computer_Barf> I saw a guy on youtube that was melting down his skeletans from previously cutt polyproplene, and he melted them back into blocks , and then milling them into parts. I wasn't able see the surface quality clearly in his videos but
[00:07:40] <Computer_Barf> Im curious to try myself when I can
[00:07:46] <Computer_Barf> so basically I was just prepping that
[00:08:07] <[cube]> ah
[00:08:46] <Computer_Barf> when i found out that laywood filament is just polyproplene + fine mesh sawdust , I also had it occur to me that it would be interesting to try to make sawdust/plastic blocks to mill
[00:09:53] <Computer_Barf> the thing is , I only have one extruder and making some of the parts were major pain of the ass without a mill/lathe , so I'm hesitant about pumping just anything into my nozzel
[00:09:57] <XXCoder> his skel melted down
[00:10:01] <XXCoder> sounds painful lol
[00:10:02] <[cube]> let me know if you ever get to extruding your own laywood
[00:10:12] <[cube]> would be very cool to see that
[00:10:27] <Computer_Barf> skeleton plastic remnants
[00:10:47] <Computer_Barf> don't know how else to describe it. cnc leftovers
[00:11:16] <Computer_Barf> jesus christ , i like the auto play feature they added to youtube, but not when i've lost the tab
[00:11:31] <XXCoder> lol ok
[00:11:39] <XXCoder> probabloy structural support stuff
[00:11:48] <CaptHindsight> are the FDM printers that print directly from pellets getting popular with filament fetish crowd?
[00:12:21] <[cube]> there's one commerical one out there
[00:12:28] <[cube]> that sells for aobut 100k
[00:12:52] <XXCoder> theres also unprinters
[00:12:53] <Computer_Barf> I saw one recently that looked interesting but
[00:13:01] <[cube]> parts it makes (from a variety of plastic stock) are supposed to be 80% the strutural integrity of an injection molded part
[00:13:03] <CaptHindsight> abs, pla and many thermoplastics are <$4/lb in pellet form
[00:13:09] <Computer_Barf> I didn't see it actually printing, just extrusion tests
[00:13:30] <XXCoder> http://deltaprinter.co.za/filamentextruder/index.html
[00:13:31] <[cube]> http://www.arburg.com/en/products-and-services/additive-manufacturing/akf-process/
[00:13:44] <Computer_Barf> $4/lb is still the ripoff rate. You want to talk someone into selling you half a ton.
[00:13:54] <XXCoder> another version http://www.filastruder.com/
[00:14:01] <Computer_Barf> but .. still half a ton is alot
[00:14:05] <CaptHindsight> $1-2/Lb
[00:14:19] <[cube]> i think those are all based on the lyman design
[00:14:23] <CaptHindsight> but for hobbyist quantity ~$/lb
[00:14:34] <CaptHindsight> ~$4/lb
[00:14:34] <XXCoder> 2 lb * 2000
[00:14:37] <Computer_Barf> you can get a 1000lbs of polycarbonate pellets for about a dollar a lb
[00:14:42] <XXCoder> = $4,000
[00:14:48] <Computer_Barf> well 90 something cents per
[00:14:50] <XXCoder> but damn you will never run out of em
[00:15:03] <XXCoder> expecially if you make some unprinter
[00:16:01] <Computer_Barf> I like to go to plastic distrubuters, tell them about my project and convince them to let me buy a few dozen kilograms for testing. It doesn't always work.
[00:16:47] <Computer_Barf> they are understandably used to high volume clients
[00:17:12] <CaptHindsight> heh, well most fdm printer "start-ups" are full of doodoo
[00:17:24] <CaptHindsight> same for SLA
[00:17:47] <Computer_Barf> so what success I've had is mostly ppl humoring me and finding it somewhat entertaining that i've built a tiny filment producing injection machine
[00:19:59] <XXCoder> when you finally buy that one ton bulk, swim in it first lol
[00:20:13] <Computer_Barf> LOL
[00:20:34] <Computer_Barf> I was thinking of making a giant bean bag
[00:20:44] <Computer_Barf> or multiple ones , filling them with the pellets
[00:21:56] <Computer_Barf> idk if I said it but
[00:22:13] <Computer_Barf> pet prints pretty well , its just a pain to break down bottles
[00:23:10] <Computer_Barf> on a personal basis it seems realistic that if I could get around turning it into a powder , then I could casually print alot of stuff essentially free
[00:23:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Item-6521-Extruder-Plastic-Welex-2-50mm-Plastic-24-1-/281338578010
[00:24:15] <Computer_Barf> 50 mm barrel you might as well mill some plastic moulds and start manufacturing
[00:25:00] <Computer_Barf> although they usually use steel, aluminum moulds can still produce thousands of parts
[00:25:11] <Computer_Barf> probably tens of thousands
[00:25:14] <XXCoder> lol yeah bit overkill there
[00:25:22] <XXCoder> did you see my links?
[00:25:47] <Computer_Barf> which ones?
[00:25:58] <XXCoder> http://deltaprinter.co.za/filamentextruder/index.html
[00:26:02] <XXCoder> another version http://www.filastruder.com/
[00:26:19] <Computer_Barf> oh yeah i looked at that when i was researching my design
[00:27:13] <[cube]> the one that russ made...
[00:27:14] <Computer_Barf> the filastuder operates at a really slow pace though
[00:27:17] <[cube]> is that a solid design?
[00:27:27] <[cube]> i saw a video of him testing it once
[00:27:29] <Computer_Barf> well it was essentially a junk build and
[00:27:38] <Computer_Barf> he built it with like
[00:27:42] <[cube]> was spitting out filament super fast
[00:27:46] <Computer_Barf> huge steel plates and
[00:27:47] <[cube]> but the tolerances were all off
[00:27:55] <Computer_Barf> yeah he got it better later
[00:28:00] <[cube]> cool
[00:28:23] <Computer_Barf> he prints fairly routinely with his now but for god sakes he needs to correct his retraction
[00:28:44] <Computer_Barf> ive been watching him print stringy stuff for like a year now
[00:28:55] <Computer_Barf> its not his filament
[00:29:05] <Computer_Barf> its just he hasn't caliberated his delta
[00:29:24] <Computer_Barf> i mean thats a common problem with deltas but its not like this impossible thing to fix
[00:29:26] <XXCoder> filastruder is $300 but then you would evenually save enogh money
[00:30:06] <Computer_Barf> the filastruder though like.. you might as well build a layman
[00:30:30] <Computer_Barf> laymans design is better for a slow one
[00:30:37] <XXCoder> 309.99 with all options
[00:30:41] <XXCoder> as well as go all way
[00:31:04] <Computer_Barf> i wouldn't trust to just buy an extruder without a puller
[00:31:09] <[cube]> then you need some kind of device to pull and wind
[00:31:31] <XXCoder> http://www.filastruder.com/collections/spare-parts/products/filawinder
[00:31:35] <XXCoder> 160
[00:31:37] <Computer_Barf> if your concerned about having consistent tolerances , you need a puller at minimum
[00:32:08] <[cube]> that price actually isnt bad...
[00:32:21] <[cube]> oh
[00:32:22] <Computer_Barf> the puller on my machine actually measures the filament, and speeds up and slows down on a pid loop accordingly
[00:32:23] <[cube]> nvm
[00:32:28] <[cube]> i thought it said $59.99
[00:32:28] <[cube]> :x
[00:32:38] <XXCoder> its if you make your own parts
[00:32:54] <XXCoder> and if you has functional 3dprinter its better optiion
[00:33:13] <[cube]> i bet theres multiple versions on intructables/thingiverse
[00:33:36] <Computer_Barf> I don't personally believe that there are any commercial small scale machines that would satisfy me
[00:33:43] <XXCoder> I bet cube
[00:34:10] <XXCoder> well night
[00:34:16] <[cube]> night
[00:34:18] <Computer_Barf> http://i.imgur.com/euYNny3.jpg
[00:34:31] <Computer_Barf> took this when I got done printing the hopper
[00:34:50] <Computer_Barf> took fucking 4 days to print it, in 5 parts that bolt together.
[00:35:02] <[cube]> hah
[00:35:04] <[cube]> looks nice
[00:35:14] <Computer_Barf> i would like to eventually mill it out of aluminum
[00:35:15] <[cube]> whats teh diameter of the widest part?
[00:35:38] <[cube]> do you have a lathe?
[00:35:40] <Computer_Barf> the auger tube is .75" if that helps with scale
[00:35:46] <Computer_Barf> no
[00:35:51] <[cube]> you could cast the printed part in aluminum
[00:35:57] <[cube]> then clean up on a lathe
[00:36:11] <[cube]> probably have to revise the part's design to be lathe friendly
[00:36:17] <Computer_Barf> well thats not a perfect cone , it has some funky geometry
[00:36:26] <[cube]> yeah
[00:36:47] <Computer_Barf> my g0704, I intend to add a 4th axis
[00:36:57] <Computer_Barf> or maybe get a lathe idk
[00:37:05] <[cube]> its funny...all my solidworks parts have 'geometric edges' on round profiles generated inside the program
[00:37:21] <[cube]> but when i for example import an illustrator-generated dwg/dex, the circles are much rounder
[00:37:23] <Computer_Barf> or maybe turn the head sideways on the mill and put a toolpost on the bed for some things
[00:37:32] <[cube]> *dxf
[00:39:15] <Computer_Barf> yeah those geometrics "low res" style for the hopper was me adapting a rectangle at the bottom to a circle on the top. I drew it in sketchup. I know what your talking about, but in this case it was somewhat intentional. I am interested in figuring out how I will get smooth stuff on the mill in cad/cam
[00:39:50] <[cube]> yeah
[00:40:04] <[cube]> apparently you really need to measure and accoutn for your backlash
[00:40:04] <Computer_Barf> http://i.imgur.com/syT9N8s.png
[00:40:11] <[cube]> if youre doing a mill conversion
[00:40:19] <[cube]> specifically for round passes
[00:40:37] <[cube]> otherwise you could break something
[00:40:56] <[cube]> nto sure if im going to cnc my mill
[00:41:06] <Computer_Barf> here was the start of the heatblock. I don't have pictures of everything but that was the start of the head
[00:41:07] <[cube]> heating block?
[00:41:12] <[cube]> nice
[00:41:20] <Computer_Barf> I had to do the stainless flanges and aluminum block with a file
[00:41:26] <Computer_Barf> A FILE!
[00:41:31] <[cube]> lol...
[00:41:47] <[cube]> crazy
[00:42:07] <Computer_Barf> yeah. I wish i had a picture of the nozzel
[00:42:17] <[cube]> i'm using an airbrush nozzle
[00:42:19] <[cube]> on my printer
[00:42:28] <[cube]> to get a 0.3mm extrusion
[00:42:40] <Computer_Barf> at one point I put a bolt though the nozzel and stuck it on my drill press and used the file on it to make the nozzel cone.
[00:42:48] <[cube]> i've got a 0.2 that i havent bothered to try yet
[00:42:54] <[cube]> i dont need anything that precise
[00:43:03] <[cube]> ha
[00:43:58] <Computer_Barf> yeah If I ever want to make any quantity of these machines I will seriously need a mill and a lathe cause that whole ordeal was hell
[00:44:14] <[cube]> why would you make many?
[00:44:21] <[cube]> to sell or to just make more filament?
[00:44:27] <Computer_Barf> stainless steel when you drill big holes in plate it work hardens if you don't keep it cool
[00:44:31] <Computer_Barf> so thats great.
[00:45:09] <[cube]> yeah
[00:45:19] <Computer_Barf> well I mean, idk. the amount of money i put into making mine suggested I was going to really need to do some good sourcing to make my design commercially
[00:45:21] <[cube]> i know first hand whats its like 'machining' metal withoutthe proper tools
[00:45:29] <Computer_Barf> idk if selling them will be profitable
[00:45:51] <Sairon> probably not
[00:46:01] <Sairon> likely have to be completely re-engineered
[00:46:12] <[cube]> the hot end mount for my printer is a joke :P
[00:46:15] <[cube]> but works great!
[00:46:28] <[cube]> put some file time and elbow grease into that
[00:46:43] <Computer_Barf> I do know I want multiple assemblies of the main shaft , nozzels , filter assemblies, flanges just so im not experementing with only one
[00:46:58] <Computer_Barf> i mean, like you suggested pva
[00:47:20] <Computer_Barf> but when i switch plastics i basically need to extrude a bit to get it to clear
[00:47:37] <Computer_Barf> which is fine going from abs to polycarbonate
[00:47:43] <Computer_Barf> or polycarbonate to pet
[00:48:08] <Computer_Barf> but I want to have multiples to switch out so I can try random shit
[00:48:43] <Computer_Barf> you suggested non-thermo extrusion , glue and sawdust
[00:49:02] <[cube]> yeah
[00:49:08] <[cube]> not sure where to start with that
[00:49:17] <[cube]> all I know is laywood is too expensive for me to even consider buying
[00:49:27] <Computer_Barf> yeah
[00:49:38] <[cube]> i could, but i'd feel stupid
[00:49:44] <Computer_Barf> i would like to try to make it on my own but
[00:50:49] <Computer_Barf> ill need a hammer mill, a mesh filtering system of some sort , and additional hotend assemblies for the filament extruder. some experements will proabably end up with having to fully clean out the barrel
[00:51:12] <Computer_Barf> maybe I could heat it red hot with that guys propane torch to clean it out
[00:51:34] <Computer_Barf> but still probably would have to get the carbon out
[00:52:27] <Computer_Barf> im just anticipating that messing around with particulates or stuff that dries like glue will probably involve multiple failures along the way
[00:53:07] <[cube]> no doubt
[00:53:18] <[cube]> the makers of laywood claim its a 'big secret'
[00:53:47] <Computer_Barf> yeah the msds says polyproplene , wood fibers
[00:54:03] <[cube]> yeah its probably like 15% wood
[00:54:17] <Computer_Barf> I think its more than that
[00:54:22] <Computer_Barf> but i ultimately don't know
[00:54:39] <Computer_Barf> im certain it has to be broken down very small
[00:54:56] <[cube]> diy dissolvable would be a better find
[00:55:01] <Computer_Barf> im sure there is oppertunity to try all sorts of other powders
[00:55:05] <[cube]> could do some really cool/complex stuff with that
[00:55:23] <Computer_Barf> so many things to try
[00:55:33] <[cube]> i guess you could use abs as your support then bathe it in acetone, but that sounds messy
[00:56:04] <[cube]> and you're probably changing the properties of your principal plastic
[00:56:11] <Computer_Barf> yes
[00:56:19] <Computer_Barf> abs turns into something else
[00:56:32] <[cube]> PLA turns rubbery
[00:56:44] <[cube]> and weakens it
[00:56:48] <[cube]> but doesnt dissolve
[00:57:10] <Computer_Barf> I dont have time for it but
[00:57:53] <Computer_Barf> it would be awsome if someone rewrote slic3r so that you could use an injector
[00:58:02] <Computer_Barf> to do a honeycomb infill and then
[00:58:19] <Computer_Barf> fill the honeycomb voids with a mek free epoxy
[00:58:35] <[cube]> you could do that with slic3r now
[00:59:00] <[cube]> take a syringe and control the feed with stepper/threaded rod?
[00:59:21] <Computer_Barf> i dont know how you could pinpoint the center of all the honeycombs
[00:59:28] <[cube]> the nozzzle could be remotely fed
[00:59:47] <[cube]> andjust a small tube/nozzle laying down the epoxy
[00:59:59] <Computer_Barf> you would have to insert something that would stop the print before the top several layers that close it in, and have it fill the empty honeycombs, before then printing over it.
[01:00:17] <Computer_Barf> yes im not saying the epoxy injection would be the problem
[01:00:20] <[cube]> ah yeah
[01:00:22] <Computer_Barf> just knowing where to point the needle
[01:00:25] <[cube]> ok, sorry was thinkging of something else
[01:00:52] <[cube]> that's actually not a bad idea...
[01:01:03] <[cube]> hit 'pause' and fill them in yourself :P
[01:01:05] <Computer_Barf> i dont just mean epoxy, any sort of hardening liquid infill
[01:01:09] <Computer_Barf> lol
[01:01:10] <[cube]> wait a few hours and resume
[01:01:31] <[cube]> im totally serious :P
[01:01:35] <Computer_Barf> or I could go back to building things with a file
[01:01:36] <Computer_Barf> lol
[01:01:59] <[cube]> i'd only do that for like 1 massive cavity
[01:02:12] <[cube]> i wouldnt sit there start stopping all day lol
[01:02:22] <Computer_Barf> it just seems if youcould go in that direction , you could significantly speed up print speeds and end up with objects that are more solid.
[01:02:35] <[cube]> yeah
[01:02:38] <Computer_Barf> well i mean
[01:02:48] <[cube]> bet you could do it with some minro code changes to marlin
[01:02:51] <[cube]> *minor
[01:03:10] <[cube]> people have modified marlin/sprinter to control laser cutters
[01:03:36] <Computer_Barf> add in stuff like carbon fibers embeded in the plastic you are extruding, add some sort of epoxy..
[01:03:44] <Computer_Barf> and bam you've printed a stealth fighter.
[01:03:59] <[cube]> 1:32 lol
[01:04:12] <Sairon> wonder how you get powders
[01:04:19] <Sairon> for metal injection molding
[01:04:43] <Computer_Barf> you mean plastics with powdered metal in it?
[01:05:15] <Computer_Barf> like the brass one?
[01:06:29] <Sairon> sure
[01:06:32] <Computer_Barf> http://www.fabbaloo.com/blog/2014/12/21/first-copper-and-bronze-theres-now-brass-3d-printer-filament
[01:06:37] <Sairon> plastics with powdered metal...
[01:06:49] <Sairon> i was really thinking of just powdered metal
[01:06:52] <Sairon> but i'll take that
[01:06:59] <Computer_Barf> oh you mean like for sintering
[01:07:11] <Sairon> yeah
[01:07:14] <Sairon> exactly
[01:07:30] <Computer_Barf> their is powdered metal on the market used for a variety of things
[01:07:40] <Computer_Barf> in diffrent mesh sizes
[01:07:50] <Computer_Barf> I presume alot of it is made in ball mills
[01:08:18] <Computer_Barf> you can like, for instance get zinc powder, or iron powder
[01:08:38] <Computer_Barf> but i dont know what they use for sintering applications specifically
[01:08:50] <Computer_Barf> i looked at the requirements for 3d metal printing and it was insane
[01:09:02] <Computer_Barf> some of those machines actually have to be kept under vacuum
[01:09:56] <Sairon> i bet
[01:10:08] <Computer_Barf> ill put that firmly in the too hard to start category
[01:10:09] <ds3> I don't see why a syringe type extruder + metal clay can't be used
[01:10:46] <Computer_Barf> well yeah like a paste yes but it won't retain the properties of the metal alone
[01:11:28] <Computer_Barf> or do you mean to heat it to fuse the metals
[01:11:28] <[cube]> wonder if you could extrude a clay like substance like metal weld and then bake it in akilne to harden
[01:11:42] <ds3> 3D print metal clay then sinter it
[01:12:02] <ds3> non noble metals apparently only need a reducing atmosphere for sintering
[01:12:17] <[cube]> sintering prints still need to be infused with a brass powder and melted in i think
[01:12:42] <[cube]> to retain any kind of strength
[01:13:07] <Computer_Barf> I've seen machines that essentially tig weld with metal rod fed from a spool, then go back and mill the surface
[01:13:32] <ds3> at least for jewery, it seems to work fine as is
[01:13:38] <Computer_Barf> i have no idea how the metal + clay would sinter
[01:13:44] <Computer_Barf> i mean it might crack
[01:13:48] <ds3> not metal + clay
[01:13:50] <ds3> metal clay
[01:13:59] <[cube]> i've seen that machine!
[01:14:09] <[cube]> i've been looking for that video ever since...
[01:14:12] <[cube]> know what its called?
[01:14:17] <Sairon> metal + plastic
[01:14:20] <[cube]> the machine was making liek a valve for a ship or something
[01:14:22] <ds3> metal clay is powder metal + organic binder + water to create a clay like consistancy
[01:14:22] <Sairon> or metal + wax
[01:14:46] <Sairon> 3d print
[01:14:49] <[cube]> weld/extruded the metal then cleaned up on a 5+ axis mill
[01:14:51] <Computer_Barf> cube: damn its probably buried in a pile of links somewhere
[01:15:00] <Sairon> sinter in microwave
[01:15:10] <[cube]> i was blown away by that thing
[01:15:16] <Computer_Barf> freaking lazers
[01:16:34] <Computer_Barf> search hybrid addative and subtractive machine on youtube
[01:16:45] <Computer_Barf> *additive
[01:17:08] <The_Ball> Computer_Barf, yeah it's amazing
[01:17:39] <Computer_Barf> cube, its manufactured by a company called DMG
[01:18:26] <[cube]> okay, thanks
[01:18:27] <[cube]> will look
[01:18:39] <Sairon> heh
[01:18:47] <Sairon> now it's mori-seiki-dmg
[01:18:54] <[cube]> foudn it!
[01:18:55] <[cube]> :D
[01:18:56] <[cube]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA
[01:19:00] <Computer_Barf> laser metal deposition
[01:19:01] <Sairon> fuckers
[01:19:05] <Sairon> good idea, too
[01:19:43] <Computer_Barf> how is the metal diposition, uh dipositionated?
[01:19:56] <Computer_Barf> i thought it was a tig but I guess its a laser
[01:20:24] <Computer_Barf> i don't really see where the new material is coming from
[01:20:41] <Computer_Barf> probably sorcery
[01:20:42] <[cube]> i've seena similar machine
[01:20:50] <[cube]> that shows how the stock is fed
[01:21:03] <[cube]> they were making a car exhaust in one piece i think
[01:23:00] <[cube]> looked just like welding rods
[01:23:28] <Computer_Barf> god I wish I could just have a few weeks to print on a machine like that
[01:23:56] <Computer_Barf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qt5ui3P9QA
[01:24:01] <Computer_Barf> holy crapy this guy is insane
[01:24:31] <Computer_Barf> god that looks like death or at least a head injury
[01:24:41] <[cube]> lol...
[01:24:53] <[cube]> reminds me of those guys who turn tree stumps
[01:25:15] <[cube]> saw one guy bolt a stump to his wheel bearings
[01:26:14] <[cube]> very cool how he's cot the pattern there
[01:26:17] <[cube]> *got
[01:26:48] <Computer_Barf> yeah. I've seen some interesting devises like that lately
[01:28:50] <Computer_Barf> there is a guy on youtube who makes wood bowls and he uses some crazy contraption to cut out shapes from the bowls and then cut the same shapes from boards to create matching inserts. its like a multidirectional lever seesaw that follows a pattern on one side, with a router on the other side. made of 80/20 extrusoin
[01:29:22] <Computer_Barf> but god the start of that video I thought I was about to watch an accident
[01:29:23] <[cube]> neat
[01:29:40] <[cube]> must be a really beefy router
[01:30:51] <Computer_Barf> you know, I bet he could automate that whole process with two steppes so he could leave the room
[01:31:22] <Computer_Barf> you know, if the bannister market really starts kicking in gear.
[01:32:00] <[cube]> lol no doubt
[01:32:19] <[cube]> poker tables come back into fashion
[01:32:59] <Computer_Barf> Batman needs his mansion stairway redone
[01:33:18] <[cube]> haha
[01:33:21] <[cube]> he did too...
[01:33:25] <[cube]> when it burned down
[01:33:28] <Computer_Barf> lol
[01:33:33] <Computer_Barf> or arrow
[01:33:50] <Computer_Barf> well i think he had to move out of that house
[01:34:29] <Computer_Barf> Ahh yes, i do wood working, but only for billionares..
[01:35:03] <[cube]> hehe
[01:37:50] <Computer_Barf> I have a theory.
[01:38:04] <Computer_Barf> Ned Stark is secretly a skywalker.
[01:38:15] <Computer_Barf> Nailed it.
[01:40:26] <[cube]> and a 00 agent
[01:40:50] <[cube]> and a tetra grammaton cleric
[01:55:16] <Computer_Barf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Ukt7y23wc
[01:55:23] <Computer_Barf> when i watch this guys videos
[01:56:09] <Computer_Barf> i keep on thinking
[01:56:12] <Computer_Barf> http://zombiesruineverything.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/aph_6.jpg
[01:56:16] <[cube]> this guy's chromakey skills need some work lol
[01:56:32] <[cube]> haha
[01:56:38] <[cube]> dana carvey
[02:34:14] <Deejay> moin
[09:22:11] <JT-Shop> zeeshan, the nut is off of the coil wire on the starter solenoid!
[09:22:29] <JT-Shop> now to find a way to get my hand in there and replace it
[09:22:45] <Sairon> get someone with a smaller hand
[09:22:52] <Sairon> that's what i usually do
[09:27:18] <SpeedEvil> Or chop off some extra fingers.
[09:31:43] <Sairon> oh, true
[09:31:54] <Sairon> that'd make the hand fit in smaller places
[09:32:16] <malcom2073> Play with heavy machines, it'll happen eventually on its own
[09:32:34] <PetefromTn_> Oh shit don't say that man..LOL
[09:33:43] <Sairon> i'm a decade in
[09:33:50] <Sairon> and i still have all my digitis
[09:34:35] <malcom2073> I took a chunk out of my finger checking out a mill, before I even bought it! :/
[09:34:46] <Sairon> maybe i should quit soon
[09:35:00] <_methods> better to bleed a little bit every day than bleed a lot all at once
[09:35:37] <malcom2073> true
[09:53:25] <Sairon> bleed!
[10:13:35] <zeeshan-laptop> CaptHindsight: are you there
[10:30:05] <JT-Shop> wrong guess, the solenoid is the 4 terminal type
[10:30:32] <mozmck> JT-Shop: is your plasma table a dual motor gantry?
[10:31:00] <JT-Shop> shaft drive
[10:31:53] <mozmck> I see. avoids the dual motor problems.
[10:32:09] <mozmck> does that work well for you?
[10:32:13] <JT-Shop> yes, makes life much easier\
[10:32:23] <malcom2073> JT-Shop: What do you mean shaft drive?
[10:32:32] <malcom2073> Shaft between the two sides?
[10:32:48] <JT-Shop> yes, the clue was to use a thin wall tube to span the distance
[10:33:10] <malcom2073> Ah cool
[10:34:41] <JT-Shop> solid rod would torque up
[10:34:57] <mozmck> you mean twist?
[10:35:04] <JT-Shop> yea
[10:35:13] <mozmck> is the tube the same diameter as the solid shaft was?
[10:35:50] <JT-Shop> no, the tube is 1" in diameter and I don't recall the shaft size exactly but something like 3/8"
[10:36:11] <mozmck> I see. I bet a solid shaft 1" would have done fine too ;)
[10:36:18] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: sort of
[10:36:31] <mozmck> might have added a bit of un-wanted weight though!
[10:36:35] <zeeshan-laptop> JT-Shop: did you fix your van?
[10:36:46] <JT-Shop> yes, but I was trying to keep the moving weight of the gantry down
[10:37:16] <mozmck> Yep, acceleration is important for plasma, and you don't wanter a 20hp motor on the gantry!!!
[10:37:17] <JT-Shop> no, I got it jacked up and it's a 4 wire solenoid so I was looking at the unused terminal
[10:37:35] <malcom2073> I really like that idea, was looking at different options to drive my gantry
[10:37:37] <mozmck> wanter??? want i mean
[10:37:43] <malcom2073> JT-Shop: Is the motor on one side, or in the middle of the gantry?
[10:37:45] <pcw_home> ISTR that torsional stiffness goes up with the 4th power of diameter so the stuff in the middle is just dead weight
[10:38:17] <zeeshan-laptop> istr? :P
[10:38:42] <JT-Shop> malcom2073, http://gnipsel.com/shop/machine-shop.xhtml
[10:39:05] <malcom2073> ooohhh machine porn. Thanks JT-Shop I'll look that over :)
[10:39:07] <pcw_home> I seem to recall
[10:39:35] <zeeshan-laptop> ou hav
[10:40:27] <zeeshan-laptop> are you talking about polar moment of area
[10:40:31] <zeeshan-laptop> J? :P
[10:41:00] <zeeshan-laptop> i need to kill an hour before a seminar
[10:41:10] <zeeshan-laptop> i wish i was home :/ id finish up the glass scale wiring
[10:57:27] <zeeshan-laptop> im taking bets
[10:57:34] <zeeshan-laptop> when i power up the cnc mill controller for the first time
[10:57:41] <zeeshan-laptop> who thinks there will be an explosion
[10:57:46] <SpeedEvil> It gains sentience, and kills us all.
[10:59:03] <zeeshan-laptop> im going to be so pissed off if i blow up the 7i77
[10:59:16] <zeeshan-laptop> i triple checked polarities , jumpers
[11:00:38] <zeeshan-laptop> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7471/16081023790_45f09fc8a3.jpg
[11:00:46] <zeeshan-laptop> anyone see anything wrong!
[11:01:10] <zeeshan-laptop> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7480/16082519967_4b00ab7e34_b.jpg
[11:01:25] <zeeshan-laptop> i did single point the servo motor case grounds at a diff location than my ground bar
[11:01:47] <zeeshan-laptop> got lazy
[11:02:56] <CaptHindsight> have you tested each motor controller/driver with motor separately yet?
[11:03:03] <zeeshan-laptop> yes before hand
[11:03:14] <zeeshan-laptop> only thing i did not test is the z - brake
[11:03:24] <zeeshan-laptop> im prety sure its like bobo said. its a solenoid driven brake
[11:03:49] <CaptHindsight> I'll often bring up all the low power stuff first, then start adding drives one by one
[11:03:57] <zeeshan-laptop> there are 5 leads coming from the motor harness, 1 is earth, measuring ohms between two wires i get like 1.2 ohms which should be my coil
[11:04:06] <zeeshan-laptop> and other 2 wires gives 28 ohms which should be solenoid
[11:04:51] <zeeshan-laptop> okay ill remove the fuses for the servo drives
[11:04:54] <zeeshan-laptop> and bring em up one by one
[11:05:14] <zeeshan-laptop> i should first get communication working with 7i77 and test sensors
[11:05:33] <zeeshan-laptop> then vfds, then servos
[11:05:43] <JT-Shop> well crap the van fixed itself... I really don't like that
[11:05:50] <zeeshan-laptop> JT-Shop: haha
[11:06:06] <zeeshan-laptop> maybe the starter gear was mis aligned?
[11:06:11] <zeeshan-laptop> needed to hammer it
[11:06:25] <malcom2073> Or the solenoid stuck?
[11:06:31] <zeeshan-laptop> yea
[11:06:37] <malcom2073> I had one where the solenoid stuck off, and Ihad to hit it with a wrench to get it to start
[11:07:07] <CaptHindsight> starter solenoid replacement is one of the things I do with any new (used) car
[11:07:47] <CaptHindsight> same with brushes on the alternator
[11:09:13] <PetefromTn_> seriously? you change the brushes?
[11:09:45] <CaptHindsight> yeah, tends to be the only thing that kills them besides the regulator
[11:09:46] <archivist> I only change brushes when the fail
[11:09:48] <malcom2073> heh
[11:10:05] <PetefromTn_> I only change the whole damn alternator...
[11:10:14] <malcom2073> I don't know that I've ever changed brushes, then again the only alternators I've had fail were in old chevys, and they're like $20 for a ne wone
[11:10:19] <PetefromTn_> and only then when it pukes...
[11:10:29] <CaptHindsight> I do preventative maintenance, the brushes usually cost ~$5
[11:11:28] <_methods> heh i just had to change my alternator the brushes were good
[11:11:54] <_methods> i didnt check to see if the voltage regulator was out i just replaced
[11:12:05] <CaptHindsight> the regulators usually sell for more than the cost of a whole new alternator
[11:12:26] <_methods> cleaned the armature and checked the brushes
[11:12:33] <archivist> often the brush ring dies at the same age as the brushes
[11:12:35] <_methods> i think one of the owindings was shorted
[11:13:12] <_methods> took it in for core charge and they tested it and it was whining horrible
[11:13:57] <_methods> only 100k on the car too
[11:14:04] <_methods> i'll never buy a toyota again
[11:14:17] <archivist> toymota
[11:14:20] <_methods> got 2 of them and they're both junk
[11:14:28] <PetefromTn_> my wife's trooper was runnning like it had a miss the other day. Swapped in new plugs and cleaned up the TB etc etc. Then it STILL had a miss. Swapped the coil pack plug all in one unit from the number 2 to the number four position and put dielectric grease on the boots and now it runs perfectly.. Kind of a PIA TO diagnose tho....
[11:15:15] <_methods> wtf is that about?
[11:15:29] <PetefromTn_> if it were not for the code telling me cylinder 2 had a misfire I would have chased tail for awhile because the plugs looked okay altho old..
[11:15:37] <_methods> why would the coil pack work on one but not the other
[11:16:20] <PetefromTn_> no idea but it COULD be that the dielectric grease and repositioning caused it to STOP an arcin'g boot or something.. I hate stuff that is not cut and dry
[11:16:21] <zeeshan-laptop> maybe crack in boot
[11:16:36] <zeeshan-laptop> causing intermittent spark jumping
[11:16:39] <CaptHindsight> it might have been poor connections that were fixed by the swapping, juggling, cleaning etc
[11:16:41] <PetefromTn_> yup possibly
[11:17:06] <CaptHindsight> I have one now by Mr. Nissan that doesn't like aftermarket coils
[11:17:07] <archivist> look at it in the dark to see tracking
[11:17:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is a possibility too but honestly the connections are pretty solid push click type..
[11:17:23] <PetefromTn_> I did that actually..
[11:17:29] <PetefromTn_> did not see anything obvious
[11:17:30] <CaptHindsight> runs fine but the resistance of the coils are out of spec
[11:18:17] <CaptHindsight> complaints and a class action suit got them to drop that code from the ECU
[11:18:19] <PetefromTn_> frackin' coil packs are very expensive so I was happy it fixed it by just swapping around.
[11:19:07] <CaptHindsight> Nissan wants $700 a set, aftermarket are only $100
[11:19:27] <PetefromTn_> for one or all?
[11:19:35] <CaptHindsight> $100 for all 6
[11:19:35] <zeeshan-laptop> f oem
[11:19:40] <zeeshan-laptop> they dont even build their own parts anymore
[11:19:41] <PetefromTn_> jeez thats cheap
[11:19:53] <PetefromTn_> the trooper ones are $90.00 each
[11:19:56] <zeeshan-laptop> they just buy from a manufacturer and up the cost by 10x
[11:20:03] <CaptHindsight> yup
[11:20:17] <zeeshan-laptop> the worst is when they use a fancy bolt
[11:20:20] <zeeshan-laptop> that you cant find anywhere
[11:20:26] <CaptHindsight> I usually buy oem for my landcruiser
[11:20:32] <zeeshan-laptop> m11 torx head
[11:20:33] <zeeshan-laptop> lol
[11:20:41] <_methods> man i want this screwdriver set so bad but if my wife finds out how much it costs she'll probably stab me in my sleep
[11:20:43] <zeeshan-laptop> internal torx
[11:20:46] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wiha-92092-50-Piece-ESD-Safe-Master-Technicians-Precision-Screwdriver-Tool-Set-/151291710901
[11:20:51] <zeeshan-laptop> rofl methods
[11:20:58] <zeeshan-laptop> wow those are expensive
[11:21:03] <CaptHindsight> it will outlast me or gas under $6/gal
[11:21:11] <_methods> i love wiha
[11:21:17] <_methods> they make great tools
[11:21:19] <PetefromTn_> I like Kleins...
[11:21:34] <zeeshan-laptop> i like old kleins
[11:21:39] <zeeshan-laptop> the new stuff feels cheap
[11:21:50] <zeeshan-laptop> some of it
[11:22:04] <PetefromTn_> I have some I got years ago I keep in a safe place LOL
[11:22:12] <CaptHindsight> I just put an alligator clip/jumper from the shafts to ground
[11:22:14] <PetefromTn_> used to use them in my old job
[11:22:19] <zeeshan-laptop> nice
[11:22:24] <CaptHindsight> makes just about any ESD safe
[11:23:57] <PetefromTn_> Oh look the scorpion king episode 18 is on redbox LOL
[11:25:08] <_methods> the non esd ones are only $10 cheaper
[11:25:22] <_methods> $7
[11:41:25] <robin_sz> eveny
[11:54:45] <robin_sz> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Haas-VF2-3-axis-CNC-mill-with-toolchanger-/261733563510?
[11:54:53] <robin_sz> go on ... you know you want it
[11:55:59] <malcom2073> I'm thinking of trying to design an auto-tool changer for an ISO30 power drawbar. It won't work with every endmill holder, but I can make it work with most of the ones I have I think, terrible idea?
[11:56:28] <archivist> want!=afford
[11:58:05] <jthornton> archivist, neat and simple new burner design http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?10200-New-burner-design
[12:02:35] <archivist> what a dangerous place for the lathe motor switch
[12:03:17] <jthornton> you noticed that too
[12:06:15] <malcom2073> Is it possible to do an auto-changer with a power drawbar that is a screw (NMTB30/ISO30 type)? Or is there risk of cross threading the bar?
[12:06:49] <cradek> certainly better to use knobs, but there are many designs for homemade screwing power drawbars
[12:07:00] <SpeedEvil> As a zeroth level asnwer - you can easily monitor torque
[12:07:05] <malcom2073> This machine has a screwing power drawbar already
[12:07:30] <cradek> people have been duct-taping air wrenches to their bridgeport heads since the beginning of time
[12:07:37] <malcom2073> heh
[12:07:58] <malcom2073> I mean a factory installed screw power drawbar
[12:08:02] <malcom2073> atl east, it seems to be so
[12:08:37] <malcom2073> Is the screw kind still called a power drawbar?
[12:12:16] <tjtr33> power drawbars negate basic rite of passage. when apprentice forgets wrench on drawbar and turns on spindle :)
[12:12:17] <tjtr33> a sound you remember forever
[12:12:35] <malcom2073> Haha
[12:12:38] <malcom2073> I'll bet
[12:12:51] <robin_sz> does it have tool in, clamps open and clamps fully closed sensing?
[12:13:59] <robin_sz> and if not, does it have a full enclosure with minimum 6mm Lexan windows?
[12:14:05] <malcom2073> Huh?
[12:14:17] <tjtr33> you an sense closing with pressure drops and levels, a missing or cocked tool can leak, a solid clamp will raise back pressure over a give short period of time ( few mS)
[12:14:40] <[cube]> i 3d printed a wrench for my spindle yesterday
[12:14:41] <[cube]> http://i.imgur.com/AM4TKWZ.jpg
[12:15:01] <[cube]> works well, really strong
[12:15:08] <robin_sz> malcom2073, basically, if it doenst have proper tool sensing, you need an enclosure
[12:15:31] <[cube]> doesnt scratch up the spindle and lets you tighten the drawbar with enough torque
[12:15:44] <robin_sz> malcom2073, as when it half-engages a tool, you won't want to be catching it in your teeth when the spindle spins up ...
[12:16:11] <PetefromTn_> thats quite a visual mental image..
[12:16:16] <malcom2073> Heh indeed, though with a power drawbar like that, it either engauges, or crossthreads, and that's my worry
[12:16:20] <robin_sz> malcom2073, if you've never seen a ISO40 toolholder leave a spindle at 12,000 rpm and embed itself in the workshop wall ...
[12:17:00] <robin_sz> 6mm lexan (polycarbonate) will stop it
[12:17:03] <malcom2073> I'll look to see if I can pressurize the column to test for a solid tool seat, but how do I prevent cross threading?
[12:17:10] <robin_sz> or 2mm steel
[12:17:17] <mrsun> hmm i wonder if 10GB/s will be enough to transfer my gcode to the cnc computer...
[12:17:28] <jthornton> is cross threading a problem now?
[12:17:34] <malcom2073> jthornton: I don't know
[12:17:35] <malcom2073> I'm asking
[12:17:38] <robin_sz> mrsun, depends
[12:17:44] <PetefromTn_> andypugh made a neat knob type PDB puller for his mill conversion...
[12:17:55] <archivist> its all inline how can you get cross threading
[12:18:11] <malcom2073> archivist: not sure, I've not stuck a tool up there yet to see how straight it is when it engauges :P
[12:18:14] <malcom2073> http://mikesshop.net/mill/image014.jpg
[12:19:02] <malcom2073> <- not a machinest, I'm in WAY over my head :)
[12:19:05] <robin_sz> just buy my haas :)
[12:19:58] <malcom2073> robin_sz: I paid less than 5% of your haas price for this :-P
[12:20:09] <R2E4> Hi all
[12:20:18] <robin_sz> thats fair
[12:20:22] <robin_sz> bridgeport?
[12:20:34] <R2E4> ANyone fabricate z zero probe?
[12:20:35] <malcom2073> Clausing/Kondia
[12:20:53] <robin_sz> oh, american junk
[12:20:56] <malcom2073> knee mill though
[12:20:57] <robin_sz> ;)
[12:21:06] <malcom2073> Spanish junk :)
[12:21:09] <robin_sz> heh
[12:21:25] <robin_sz> R2E4: I did a pushbutton one once
[12:21:38] <robin_sz> used a stanless steel bell-push
[12:21:42] <robin_sz> on a router
[12:22:12] <R2E4> I need one I can place on top of stock to set my Z zero. I dont have tool changer working and tool offset, tool table , setup.
[12:22:27] <robin_sz> the other way is a steel block with a piece of PCB material
[12:23:00] <R2E4> I have phenolic
[12:23:04] <robin_sz> when the tool touches the copper, circuit completes, ta da. lots of wood router do this, eg Multicam
[12:23:29] <robin_sz> you need a piece of PCB material, coper one side, insulator under
[12:23:47] <R2E4> yeah but i want a spring action type. My machine's Z would crush it....lol
[12:23:56] <PetefromTn_> R2E4 I have design started for a table mounted tool probe it is dead simple but should work...I have already got the materials here but just have not gotten around to making it yet.
[12:24:04] <robin_sz> wut?
[12:24:34] <R2E4> Pete, ah cool. I was just checking out the probes people are working on also.
[12:24:56] <robin_sz> R2EF: no, it approaches it slowly and stops the instant contact is made ... Multicam use this on all their CNCs, the block is usually un-marked even after years of use
[12:25:23] <PetefromTn_> the tricky bit is getting it to work very clean and reliable switch open and closing without debounce
[12:25:43] <robin_sz> you can use a mechnical one, but they are not very accurate,
[12:26:00] <robin_sz> unless you have linear up/down motion
[12:26:49] <R2E4> was thnking tube in a tube with spring under it and prox sensor sideways.
[12:27:01] <robin_sz> prox sensor?
[12:27:02] <robin_sz> no
[12:27:14] <robin_sz> repeatability is poor
[12:27:15] <R2E4> use delrin on sides to keep from wobbling inside tube.
[12:27:19] <PetefromTn_> I actually started with a piece of ground rod and a linear bearing atop a custom base..
[12:27:39] <robin_sz> yeah, it has to be linear motion
[12:27:41] <PetefromTn_> this keeps things very vertical and allows smooth movement
[12:27:44] <R2E4> robin_sz: oh yeah? thats bad
[12:27:45] <robin_sz> yes
[12:27:58] <robin_sz> best is electrical pad
[12:28:12] <robin_sz> or a Rennishaw ;)
[12:28:19] <R2E4> PetefromTn_: tell me more. pics?
[12:28:20] <PetefromTn_> the plan is to use an isolated contact pad attached to the base of the ground rod and touching something setup in the base.
[12:28:58] <PetefromTn_> renishaw is the top dog but also very expensive... especially the table probing.. it is capable of length and diameter probing.
[12:31:16] <R2E4> inputs on the 7i77 fast enough?
[12:32:30] <PetefromTn_> standby..
[12:34:22] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/oNPGqn1.jpg that is as far as I have gotten...
[12:36:28] <R2E4> thats going to go in a housing? contacts on the bottom so when it goes down and touch it, you get input. no?
[12:36:29] <PetefromTn_> basically the rod needs to have a mushroom press fit cap made from delrin or something to keep the debris and coolant out of the socket as much as possible. the rod is spring loaded upwards and there are two contact rings one on the bottom of the rod and the other inside the base supported atop some sort of isolation
[12:36:31] <R2E4> Thats cool
[12:36:57] <PetefromTn_> actually the contacts need to be UP it needs to be closed until the tool touches it..
[12:37:36] <R2E4> ok, that would be the ground to trigger?
[12:38:12] <R2E4> of course, that type of design works. you going to use that as tool offset?
[12:39:34] <PetefromTn_> yeah well actually right now when I touch off tools I make the machine go to G59.3 which I setup at the back right corner of the table. Then I load the tool, and bring it down to the table on top of a 123 block
[12:39:43] <PetefromTn_> then I touch off the tool to the tool table
[12:39:56] <PetefromTn_> this would be the same basic thing only I would want to automate it somehow...
[12:41:53] <tjtr33> do it slow, touch, back off, cut speed in half, repeat 3x. then repeat whole process with a small allowable difference tolerance ( or rest assured its too dirty/loose )
[12:42:41] <PetefromTn_> fer sure..
[12:42:51] <PetefromTn_> that is how HAAS does it only they do it twice
[12:43:18] <PetefromTn_> I think my design should work well if I get some time to build it.
[12:43:25] * Tom_itx smiles: http://theawesomer.com/insane-homebrew-rocket/303503/
[12:43:40] <PetefromTn_> now that I am waiting for my CNC lathe to be retrofit it is going to be awhile before I can machine the parts....
[12:44:34] <tjtr33> Tom_itx, been there, its insane! loads of stupid fun
[12:44:59] <tjtr33> old stuff was std linear rokets on ramps, these ufos are new
[12:47:03] <R2E4> anyone have backissues of digital machinist? vol6 #4.... lol
[12:47:28] <PetefromTn_> I have some not sure what years but I got them awhile ago...
[12:47:33] <roycroft> i'm sure i do, somewhere
[12:47:41] <roycroft> you can subscribe to the digital edition and get access to back issues
[12:47:50] <PetefromTn_> REALLY?
[12:47:55] <roycroft> yeah
[12:47:55] <PetefromTn_> how much is it?
[12:48:09] <roycroft> i don't recall, but i'm pretty sure it's less than the print edition
[12:48:21] <PetefromTn_> nice gonna have to check that out..
[12:48:21] <roycroft> they do a bundle where you can get both print + digital too
[12:48:26] <R2E4> I'll find out here in a minute
[12:48:41] <PetefromTn_> I kinda like that magazine...
[12:48:55] <roycroft> iirc they make it really difficult to download the digital versions though
[12:49:01] <PetefromTn_> bought a bunch of them at holstons and whatnot over the years whenever I am in there.
[12:49:03] <roycroft> yeah, i've been getting it since the first issue
[12:49:08] <PetefromTn_> had a subscription for awhile..
[12:49:22] <roycroft> i just renewed mine last night
[12:49:34] <PetefromTn_> whats it cost now?
[12:49:44] <roycroft> it was $38 for two years
[12:49:53] <PetefromTn_> not bad really
[12:50:04] <PetefromTn_> but is it still only bimonthly?
[12:50:14] <roycroft> quarterly
[12:50:19] <roycroft> hsm is bimonthly
[12:50:34] <roycroft> there has been a number of articles about linuxcnc in dm
[12:50:52] <R2E4> the one I am looking for is the one with the D probe.
[12:51:22] <R2E4> by Arnie Minear
[12:52:32] <R2E4> 5.00 electronic version of backorder and 6.50 for the paper version.
[12:53:15] <R2E4> cheaper than the subscription, just backorder once a QUARTER...LOL
[12:55:24] <PetefromTn_> I have one with a probe of some sort.. not sure about D probe... it is a simple spindle probe tho.
[12:56:18] <R2E4> I'm stuck in a surfing vortec.
[12:56:27] <R2E4> about probes
[12:56:42] <robin_sz> Peter: yeah, I have a rennishaw on that haas
[12:57:02] <PetefromTn_> they are nice for sure...
[12:57:08] <PetefromTn_> what are you selling it for?
[12:57:23] <malcom2073> robin_sz: Idon't suppose you know of any information off hand on DIY auto-changer spindle safety stuff?
[12:57:37] <robin_sz> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTAwWDE2MDA=/z/piIAAOSwxYxUtVSQ/$_57.JPG
[12:57:41] <malcom2073> Or even terminology to search for
[12:58:10] <PetefromTn_> nice. that looks like the older version
[12:58:46] <robin_sz> malcom2073, ive only played with HSD auto spindles, they have clamp open, clamp closed and empty, clamp closed with something in it
[12:58:48] <R2E4> http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?products_id=323
[12:58:52] <R2E4> shouldnt be that hard to make
[12:59:20] <malcom2073> robin_sz: You say clamp, are they they gripping ball kind?
[12:59:46] <robin_sz> malcom2073, the danger is that the ball puller grabs the top of the ball, so its held the tool 3 or 5mm too loow, it spins up, wobbles and lets fly
[13:00:19] <malcom2073> Yeah, that makes sense
[13:00:33] <robin_sz> Peter: I was just ging to let it go with the mill, i have th 4th axis, will sell that separate
[13:00:34] <malcom2073> I wonder if I just measure current on the drawbar motor, I can tell if a tool is seated
[13:01:01] <robin_sz> no, that will just tell you if the thread has a lump of swarf on it, or the tool is seated
[13:01:17] <R2E4> put a encoder on the drawbar.
[13:01:28] <robin_sz> malcom2073, the big problem in all CNC;s is swarf getting into the tool holders ...
[13:01:50] <malcom2073> R2E4: not a bad idea either, except what if it doesn't engauge in the same thread each time?
[13:02:01] <malcom2073> robin_sz: I assume that's why most of them have the powerful air blasts out the hole?
[13:02:29] <robin_sz> and they usually have the toolholders under some sort of cover
[13:02:36] <malcom2073> right
[13:02:39] <robin_sz> and a door opens at tool change time
[13:02:47] <R2E4> malcom2073: doesnt care, you have to know where it is when the machine starts. just counts.
[13:03:12] <R2E4> yeah your right
[13:03:35] <robin_sz> right, back to DSP coding ..
[13:03:49] <malcom2073> yeah I'll have it under cover, and have a door protecting it for sure, I'll have to see if I can blast air down the hole the screw is in
[13:15:46] <malcom2073> on the other hand, I wonder how much of a hassle it would be, to convert over to a ball and grabber style setup, which would be easier to work in detection with
[14:25:53] <G0704> hi
[14:26:15] <JT-Shop> low
[14:26:25] <R2E4> mid
[14:26:35] <G0704> I'm finished today the ballscrew installation
[14:26:44] <G0704> and It's work,
[14:27:10] <G0704> the Z axis is very hard to tern.
[14:27:24] <G0704> about 5/Nm
[14:27:50] <G0704> turn*
[14:30:47] <G0704> There is a problem to work with motor that is't too big?
[14:31:40] <G0704> someone?
[14:34:54] <PetefromTn_> not sure what you are asking?
[14:36:30] <LeelooMinai> I think the question is if the ballscrew doesn't work smoothly, will the small motor have problems with it.
[14:37:56] <LeelooMinai> 5 N/m sounds a bit scary though, doesn't it?
[14:38:18] <LeelooMinai> It's like hanging 1kg package on 0.5m stick:)
[14:52:59] <G0704> the torqe meter show 5 N/m on the X axis, if i will take 8 N/m motor it will work.
[14:54:46] <G0704> now my question is, for the X and Y axis i need about 2 N/m motor, so it's better to go with smaller motor, or to buy 3 motors of 8N/m
[14:55:58] <LeelooMinai> Is there something heavy that ballscrew drives? I may be wrong, but shouldn't the no-load torque be much smaller?
[14:59:33] <G0704> LeelooMinai: the Z axis contain of motor and iron..
[15:00:22] <LeelooMinai> Youwrote it's on X axis too
[15:02:13] <G0704> no, on the X and Y it just 2 N/m
[15:02:32] <LeelooMinai> I see, ok
[15:03:01] <G0704> i want to know if i need smaller motor for them?
[15:03:08] <G0704> LeelooMinai: ^
[15:03:08] <R2E4> Your Z motor have electromech brake on it?
[15:03:33] <G0704> R2E4: no
[15:04:01] <G0704> the rails it's dove tails and I've open the gibs.
[15:04:13] <G0704> the machine is G0704
[15:04:21] <R2E4> ah
[15:08:10] <LeelooMinai> How does one measure torque on a ballscrew? With what tool?
[15:08:11] <PetefromTn_> G0704 This machine has been converted by many many folks now I would investigate what they have done and use similar sized motors...
[15:09:09] <G0704> so 3 8 N/m motors? or 1 8N/m and 2 small ones?
[15:10:09] <G0704> PetefromTn_: you know what motors they uses?
[15:11:18] <PetefromTn_> well Connor here has one and he has some steppers on it you would have to ask him the sizes. I saw it working in person and he has made parts with it so I know it works however he has recently torn it down to add ballscrews and MEsanet cards.
[15:13:10] <Connor> 570oz Steppers on all 3 axis, direct drive will work just fine.
[15:14:57] <Connor> From http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/
[15:15:09] <LeelooMinai> So what are the methods of measuring no-load torque on ballscews?
[15:17:37] <SpeedEvil> put the rod in, balanced fore and aft, spin it, measure spin-down?
[15:18:17] <LeelooMinai> Well, ok, assume that it cannot be done - there's something attached
[15:18:18] <PetefromTn_> in/lb torque wrench?
[15:19:04] <PetefromTn_> assuming the axis is attached to the movement just the ballscrew with nut has almost zero LOL...
[15:19:07] <LeelooMinai> Well, and how would you connect that wrench... it's not like there's some nut on it
[15:19:36] <PetefromTn_> where there is a will there is a way..
[15:20:14] <G0704> hi again
[15:20:28] <G0704> electricity problem..
[15:20:32] <LeelooMinai> I am more thinking of measuring what torque the whole acis requires to move
[15:20:37] <LeelooMinai> exis*
[15:20:42] <LeelooMinai> axis*:)
[15:21:06] <LeelooMinai> So that is ballscrew with some table on rails
[15:21:26] <LeelooMinai> Cannot really do it with a torque wrench
[15:24:00] <G0704> It's torque meter not torque wrench
[15:24:41] <G0704> I'ts give you the max force that you use to turn the shaft.
[15:24:48] <LeelooMinai> PetefromTn_ sugested using a wrench
[15:26:19] <G0704> http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/torque/torque.htm
[15:26:45] <G0704> it's look similar to this device
[15:27:08] <LeelooMinai> Is it expensive?
[15:27:40] <R2E4> 150 list
[15:28:33] <LeelooMinai> So maybe the correct name is "torque sensor"?
[15:30:40] <G0704> it's basically a load cell with fancy display..
[15:31:38] <R2E4> You can buy a G0&04 allready done for 4200 bangers.... http://www.engineeringforless.com/g0704.html
[15:32:54] <R2E4> The Z is f=driven by a 1200oz/in stepper while the x and Y are 425 oz/in
[15:34:29] <PetefromTn_> hehe
[16:01:54] <roycroft> so the difference in specs between the 12x36 lathe and the 13x40 that i'm looking at (grizzly) are not great
[16:02:01] <roycroft> except the 13x40 has a foot brake
[16:02:19] <roycroft> i rarely have used the foot brake on a lathe, but my shop instructor was adamant that one should have one
[16:02:24] <roycroft> any thoughts on that?
[16:02:36] <roycroft> is it worth spending an extra $600 for a foot brake?
[16:03:02] <roycroft> the extra swing and distance between centers is nice, but not a big deal to me at all
[16:03:16] <roycroft> and certainly not worth $600 by themselves
[16:25:34] <Deejay> gn8
[16:28:38] <G0704> hi again.. hope now it will stay..
[16:47:06] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: how accurate do you need to measure it
[16:47:26] <LeelooMinai> Was just wondering if ther
[16:47:33] <Tom_itx> bumpy ride on freenode today
[16:47:39] <LeelooMinai> If there's some cheap way of doing it in general
[16:47:52] <zeeshan> yea there is
[16:48:10] <zeeshan> attach a pulley to your ball screw end, peferrably a sprocket
[16:48:24] <zeeshan> take a string, keep adding weights
[16:48:40] <zeeshan> when the pulley moves, you found your force
[16:48:51] <zeeshan> multiply by radius of the pulley at attachement point and you got torque
[16:49:06] <LeelooMinai> Right, a ghetto way - I know:) I could also use dynamopmeter at the end.
[16:49:12] <zeeshan> well you said cheap
[16:49:15] <zeeshan> thats why i asked.
[16:49:27] <zeeshan> its not ghetto
[16:49:30] <zeeshan> theres many labs that do it
[16:49:44] <zeeshan> you can get it within +/-1 ft-lb with calibrated weights.
[16:50:08] <zeeshan> you have two sources of error yea? distance of pulely and weight
[16:50:12] <zeeshan> and human factor :P
[16:50:15] <LeelooMinai> I thought that maybe there's some tool that is like torque wrench, but instad can be clamped to any round shaft and when you apply force it shows you the reading
[16:50:16] <zeeshan> so i guess 3
[16:50:30] <zeeshan> you can use a torque wrench..
[16:50:34] <zeeshan> indicator style
[16:50:48] <zeeshan> and keep your eye on the indicator and notice the reading asap it moves the ball screw
[16:50:52] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but it has the end that is not really clampable to anything:)
[16:50:54] <zeeshan> but itll be less accurate i'd think
[16:50:54] <Tom_itx> with a slide on it so it will hold the highest reading
[16:50:57] <archivist> there are a number or torque meters on the market
[16:50:59] <zeeshan> and requries a torque wrench
[16:51:07] <zeeshan> keyword was cheap
[16:51:08] <zeeshan> thats why i asked
[16:51:21] <Tom_itx> is there a bird in here?
[16:51:28] <Tom_itx> i keep hearing cheap cheap cheap cheap
[16:51:41] <zeeshan> i was trying to prepare myself to help
[16:51:41] <PetefromTn_> frugal
[16:51:46] <archivist> measure by adding strain gauges
[16:51:46] <zeeshan> cause helping LeelooMinai is like...
[16:51:54] <zeeshan> no comment :P
[16:52:29] <zeeshan> archivist: have you hooked up bondeded type strain gauges before?
[16:52:32] <Tom_itx> so zeeshan when are you gonna power up your control?
[16:52:41] <Tom_itx> i think you should go before me
[16:52:44] <zeeshan> haha
[16:52:50] <PetefromTn_> light em up!!
[16:52:52] <zeeshan> want me to blow it up first?
[16:52:53] <zeeshan> :D
[16:53:01] <Tom_itx> i was doing some more rewiring last night
[16:53:16] <Tom_itx> yeah you can appease the smoke gods for me
[16:53:23] <archivist> zeeshan, no, but the company I worked for made torquemeter electronics for a mechanical company
[16:53:27] <zeeshan> ssi did that for all of us
[16:53:28] * zeeshan hides
[16:53:33] <Tom_itx> haha
[16:53:52] <PetefromTn_> I made my own sacrifices to the smoke gods....
[16:54:11] <zeeshan> archivist: i have never hooked up a strain gage from scratch before
[16:54:22] <zeeshan> i always wonderd if there was a cheap daq you could hook it up to
[16:54:25] <zeeshan> and get the info on a comp
[16:54:33] <zeeshan> the national instruments ones are $$$$
[16:54:40] <zeeshan> too much for hobby use
[16:54:55] <archivist> the torque meters measured the phase of two spaced gears
[16:55:10] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: haha
[16:55:16] <zeeshan> did your 7i77 get repaired??
[16:55:19] <zeeshan> i forget
[16:55:57] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: i have two options: finish wiring up 8 wires for each glass encoder
[16:55:59] <Tom_itx> well they demanded one smoked board from me
[16:56:00] <zeeshan> will take like 2 hours
[16:56:06] <PetefromTn_> yeah sure did. I have it here now waiting patiently for money to buy the rest of the schtuff necessary for my Lathe retrofit
[16:56:07] <zeeshan> or just run the flex conduit and call it a day
[16:56:14] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: sweet man!
[16:56:16] <Tom_itx> they wanted 2 but i said no you can only have one
[16:56:51] <zeeshan> dude the other day my dad gave me a board from an xray controller
[16:56:54] <zeeshan> and hes like can you fix this?
[16:57:10] <zeeshan> without saying anything, i passed him my burnt speed controller board
[16:57:13] <zeeshan> he walked away :)
[16:57:30] <zeeshan> microelectronics is confusing
[16:57:52] <Tom_itx> there are a few rules to follow
[16:57:52] <zeeshan> if i touched that xray board, it'd prolly make the xray generator spit out 23902380389023x more radiation
[16:58:11] <archivist> diagnosis makes fault finding easy enough
[16:58:34] <zeeshan> diagnosis in what sense?
[16:58:42] <zeeshan> probing chip by chip, component by component?
[16:59:10] <archivist> signal path by division
[17:01:20] <archivist> I would regard a power supply as just a big signal that effects all the other related signals when fault finding
[17:02:17] <Jymmm> archivist+++
[17:02:44] <Jymmm> I like that, I really do!
[17:03:04] <_methods> hehe i'm gonna start calling all my power supplies signal generators
[17:03:22] <roycroft> i was about to say affect not effect, but a power supply actually does both
[17:03:30] <Jymmm> Troubleshooting diagonstics steps:
[17:03:47] <Jymmm> Step 1. Did you pay the electric bill?
[17:04:02] <roycroft> step 2. is the magic smoke already gone?
[17:04:03] <zeeshan> lol
[17:04:23] <Jymmm> roycroft: FAIL! Back of the line
[17:04:29] <archivist> before you open the box is the power light on? that checks incoming power cable transformer switch nearly half the psu
[17:04:31] <Jymmm> Step 2. Is it plugged in?
[17:05:18] <archivist> could be a battery device!
[17:05:35] <malcom2073> Is the power source connected to it?
[17:05:37] <malcom2073> :P
[17:05:52] <Jymmm> archivist: Is the battery plugged in?
[17:06:03] <Jymmm> Step 3: Is it turned ON ?
[17:06:07] <archivist> is there an audible noise when you switch the power
[17:06:33] <Jymmm> Y'all are giving em way too much credit.
[17:07:00] <Jymmm> I can't tell you how many times I've isolatd over the photne that it wasn't plugged in or turned on.
[17:07:58] <Jymmm> "Has anything changed recently?" "No nothing at all?" 20 minutes later.... "Oh yeah, they moved my desk to another building"
[17:08:04] <archivist> I was a radio and TV engineer, then later fixed electronic kits made by noobs
[17:08:58] <archivist> have a photographic memory of the items you normally repair, the faults jump out at you
[17:09:07] <zeeshan> archivist: youre an expert
[17:09:11] <zeeshan> no wonder its easy to you :P
[17:09:57] <Jymmm> Chassis handles / control guards ss http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/90038541/
[17:10:34] <archivist> that last one was a kit I repaired hundreds of, had 240 resistors and 20 quad opamps
[17:11:23] <archivist> some bought ready made so we built them too
[17:11:45] <zeeshan> SMT ?
[17:13:26] <archivist> nah, this was in the 1970-80s
[17:13:43] <Jymmm> Just curious, does anyone know how to heatsink TO-252's by chance? I have three next to each other, apx 120W total
[17:14:03] <Jymmm> max.
[17:14:48] <_methods> screw em to a chunk of alum
[17:15:08] <LeelooMinai> You normally heatsink them by soldering to big plane on the pcb (ground plane)
[17:15:36] <_methods> or that
[17:15:43] <archivist> or both
[17:15:43] <LeelooMinai> They are not really designed to be screwed as they don't have hole in them:) SMD
[17:15:46] <zeeshan> archivist: lies :P you have that fancy microscope
[17:15:52] <zeeshan> but i guess you use thatr for watch making
[17:16:11] <_methods> i've seen them attached to an alum plate taht was screwed down
[17:16:25] <archivist> microscope is useful for finding PCB shorts on new boards
[17:16:29] <Jymmm> LeelooMinai: Thanks, I'll look at the PCB when it arrives, but I believe they'll need additional cooling as well.
[17:16:57] <_methods> glue a heatsink on top of it
[17:17:13] <_methods> http://www.fischerelektronik.de/en/latest-news/press-releases/releases/smt-heatsinks-for-d-pak/
[17:17:13] <LeelooMinai> That would not work that well
[17:17:17] * Jymmm glues a heatsink on _methods
[17:17:34] <_methods> how's that cement cnc coming along lol
[17:17:39] <malcom2073> That's hot.
[17:17:59] <Jymmm> LeelooMinai: Saw those, they need to be soldered to the pcb
[17:18:05] <LeelooMinai> Yes, not how those heatsinks don't even have contact with the package - they transfer heat from the solder pad underneath the package
[17:18:13] <LeelooMinai> not=note
[17:18:40] <Jymmm> I guess I'll just sandwich together
[17:18:50] <_methods> i bet you will
[17:19:08] <Jymmm> _methods: how much?
[17:19:08] <_methods> i'm a piece of white bread, you're a piece of white bread
[17:19:30] <_methods> soup sandwich time
[17:20:04] <_methods> don't listen to Jymmm he doesn't even know how to solder
[17:20:43] <Jymmm> ope, never soldered anything in my life
[17:20:46] <Jymmm> Nope*
[17:20:48] <_methods> hehe
[17:22:25] <_methods> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqR,!i4E9ef4lmJJBPd0lRJ)Gw~~60_35.JPG
[17:22:42] <_methods> they even anodized them lol
[17:23:09] <Jymmm> _methods: Yes, aluminum oxidizes if not.
[17:23:42] <LeelooMinai> Those are pretty bad heatsinks though - those packages are not designed to be cooled like that
[17:23:48] <Jymmm> _methods: the oxidation is a poor thermal conductor.
[17:24:18] <archivist> the oxidation is identical to anodising but thinner!
[17:24:20] <_methods> yeah i guess they normally clear coat them
[17:24:29] <_methods> clear anodize
[17:25:00] <Jymmm> archivist: I've had poor electrical conductivity on heavily oxidized alumiun
[17:25:59] <archivist> you have to cut through to get a good connection always
[17:27:32] <Jymmm> archivist: This was REALLY bad, It was in the scrap bin of the metal supply and they just gave it away
[17:31:53] <Jymmm> Yes, that's right, I have to SMUGGLE in a lamp to Kommiefornia *sigh* http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20110903/
[17:32:42] <SpeedEvil> rectally?
[17:32:59] <_methods> it's the only way to get agood reading
[17:33:11] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: I think I'm already fscked, so, um, yeah!
[17:33:24] <Jymmm> *sadly enough*
[17:33:38] <Jymmm> an ILLEGAL lamp, really?!
[17:37:24] <SpeedEvil> They just need to throw a CFL into the box to make it legal
[17:37:58] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: "Light bulbs are sold separately"
[17:38:45] <SpeedEvil> exactly
[17:38:50] <SpeedEvil> you can't do that with title 20
[17:39:16] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: ?!
[17:39:34] <Jymmm> You cant sell a lamp without a light bulb?
[17:40:12] <SpeedEvil> yes - it has to have an energy saving light bulb
[17:40:23] <SpeedEvil> or a socket which can only accept them, or a LED fixture
[17:40:33] <Jymmm> Oh gawd
[17:41:13] <_methods> hehe
[17:41:20] <_methods> black market lamps
[17:41:41] <malcom2073> LOL
[17:41:49] <Jymmm> _methods: You know how sad that sounds?
[17:42:04] <_methods> brawndo.....it's got 'lectrolytes
[17:42:32] <_methods> that stupid?
[17:42:42] <Jymmm> I can see it now... interior designs doing dark alley deals...
[17:42:57] <_methods> they already do that
[17:43:05] <_methods> they're interior designers
[17:43:33] <malcom2073> I hear your city has a..... designer problem
[17:43:35] <Jymmm> Some thug wearing casmeir on the corner around the corner from a box truck
[17:43:57] <_methods> hahah
[17:44:44] <Jymmm> some tactical vest wearing rookie cop shoots suspect in an attempted illegal lamp purchase...
[17:45:12] <Jymmm> "It didn't have a orange tip, I thought it was a weapon"
[17:45:32] <_methods> the war on lamps
[17:45:43] <Jymmm> "The officer did what he was trianed to do"
[17:46:01] <malcom2073> Riots ensue, looting of home decoration stores
[17:46:21] <_methods> hehe first world problems
[17:46:37] <Jymmm> outlet strips fill the streets as rioters attempt to use their illegal lamps
[17:49:42] <The_Ball> Is there generally a difference between center drills and spot drills?
[17:50:20] <jdh> yes
[17:50:59] <jdh> but I only have center drills so I use them for both.
[17:52:01] <JT-Shop> center drills are used to make a place for the center to fit, spot drills are use to keep a drill bit on center when it starts
[17:52:26] <SpeedEvil> z
[17:52:36] <SpeedEvil> What I want is a lefty drill.
[17:52:39] <The_Ball> huh, wikik says: "Most modern solid-carbide bits should not be used in conjunction with a spot drill bit or a center drill bit, as solid-carbide bits are specifically designed to start their own hole. Usually, spot drilling will cause premature failure of the solid-carbide bit and a certain loss of hole quality."
[17:52:46] <SpeedEvil> that will make a pilot hole for a bit a little to the left
[17:57:34] <PetefromTn_> sure but most modern solid carbide drills are very expensive and only used for precision machining or the occasional drilling out a broken tap LOL
[18:02:49] <_methods> yeah i just snatch all the "dead" drill from work
[18:03:13] <_methods> yg-1 dream drills and osg lol
[18:03:27] <_methods> they'll last forever with me
[18:06:52] * SpeedEvil idly wonders about a machine to wire EDM carbide drills.
[18:08:03] <PetefromTn_> funny you mention yg1 we use them a lot around here and they are reasonably priced it seems.
[18:08:11] <_methods> yeah great drills
[18:08:13] <_methods> i love em
[18:08:37] <_methods> i use osg for crazy stuff
[18:08:49] <_methods> but everyday drilling it's the dream drills
[18:10:38] * SpeedEvil wishes 'small parts' on amazon would ship to him.
[18:11:45] <PetefromTn_> they make a decent coated carbide endmill too I have several here.
[18:11:56] <_methods> yg?
[18:12:09] <_methods> i've tried their end mills
[18:12:14] <PetefromTn_> yeah I think so..
[18:12:17] <_methods> they were as good as anything else
[18:12:24] <PetefromTn_> yg1
[18:12:28] <_methods> i stick to the hanita varimills though
[18:12:35] <PetefromTn_> not even sure where they are made but they sure cut good
[18:13:07] <PetefromTn_> I hear they are good too but have not tried them personally in my machine. Had a few odd ones in the shops I worked in that seemed okay.
[18:13:46] <_methods> well they had the patent on the variflute thing for a long time
[18:13:50] <_methods> but now anyone can make it
[18:13:59] <_methods> so it really doesnt matter too much anymore
[18:14:39] <_methods> i havne't tried one of the varimill II series yet though
[18:14:45] <_methods> http://www.widia.com/en/products/29388747/29665015/29665021/38346376/100007244.html
[18:15:59] <_methods> i guess widia bought hanita out or something
[18:17:42] * SpeedEvil ponders sanity.
[18:17:57] <SpeedEvil> I'm considering building a thermal probe - inside a 20 guage needle.
[18:18:29] <SpeedEvil> I guess I should try soldering up some parts first to see if it's doabe.
[18:20:18] <_methods> can't you get somethign like that off the shelf?
[18:21:54] <_methods> i guess 20ga in kinda small
[18:29:38] <SpeedEvil> _methods: I want a thermal impedence probe. That is - stick it in - measure the temperature, apply a .05W heater, and measure the rate of temperature increase and the peak
[18:29:49] <SpeedEvil> To measure thermal insulation properties
[19:11:15] <Connor> Man, RVing in the Winter SUCKS!!! :(
[19:13:11] <LeelooMinai> It's better than sleeping in a tent
[19:13:48] <_methods> or a dead ton-ton
[19:14:22] <PCW> Connor: is it you that got molded out of your house?
[19:14:24] <PetefromTn_> You're Ton ton will freeze before you reach the first marker.....Then I'll see you in HELL!!
[19:14:34] <_methods> hehe
[19:14:43] <Connor> Yea. Really hard on the Wife (having fibromyalgia and all)
[19:14:59] <Connor> PCW Yea. In week 2 of RV hell while they're working on it.
[19:15:09] <PCW> Sorry sounds like a trial
[19:15:39] <Connor> They were not able to do anything Friday because too cold and nothing yesterday because of the Rain. (Soda blasting requires dry, non-freezing conditions)
[19:16:15] <Connor> Yea. We had 6 years left on the house, but, this is going to set us back another 10 years.
[19:16:17] <PetefromTn_> that sux
[19:16:21] <Connor> over 30k worth of damage.
[19:16:43] <_methods> wow that's horrible
[19:16:53] <_methods> and i'm sure insurance won't cover shit
[19:17:01] <Connor> not a dime.
[19:17:02] <_methods> i'm so glad i pay for that worthless stuff
[19:17:07] <Tom_itx> PCW, are those jtag boards smt or thru hole?
[19:17:27] <Tom_itx> i have an old schematic here for one somewhere...
[19:18:48] <Connor> So, whats up in linuxcnc world? :)
[19:19:07] <PetefromTn_> well I think I found my dog!?
[19:19:18] <Connor> PetefromTn_: That's good.
[19:19:54] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is.... lady found him this afternoon and took him to a local pet spa until tomorrow morning.
[19:20:26] <Connor> Oh Good deal.
[19:22:19] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/GHz1Qxy.jpg Also made this prototype Protective Lower intake Manifold Cover for the RX7 guys yesterday.. Seemed to fit perfect LOL
[19:22:55] <_methods> nice
[19:23:16] <_methods> looks like a wwf belt
[19:23:30] <PetefromTn_> thanks man I designed it from a photo of the original LIM gasket...
[19:23:54] <PetefromTn_> I kinda thought it looked like a BATARANG!!
[19:23:59] <_methods> i hate machining thin shit like that
[19:24:12] <PetefromTn_> yeah it's kind of a bitch
[19:24:13] <_methods> chattery ass nightmare
[19:24:38] <PetefromTn_> I told the customer if they want them they need to order in QUANTITY and I figure I will make a nice little vacuum hold down fixture for making them.
[19:25:05] <_methods> or get them lasered out and engrave them later
[19:25:55] <PetefromTn_> naah the cutting was real quick and easy this is the kind of thing I can make some decent money on in reasonable volumes... I would make the fixture to hold like four or five at a time.
[19:26:45] <_methods> right on
[19:27:23] <PetefromTn_> when I was over there they were dyno testing a big turbo RX7 and DAMN was that thing sounding badass....
[19:28:37] <_methods> i got a tuner shop next to my place they drive me nuts comin over asking for stupid custom one off stuff
[19:29:04] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know right.. At least these guys are aiming for more production pieces...
[19:29:06] <_methods> they never want to pay for it either
[19:29:16] <PetefromTn_> Did you see my small run of battery trays?
[19:29:24] <_methods> i wouldn't mind if they would bring me a real print
[19:29:37] <_methods> but they come over with a damn part and say make this
[19:29:47] <PetefromTn_> hehe I hear that these guys basically need me to design everything.
[19:29:51] <_methods> i think so but not sure
[19:30:40] <Jymmm> _methods: You just have to star having them pay in advance, or 50% down, 50% on completion
[19:30:47] <PetefromTn_> right now we are working on another item that will need to be 3d designed and prototyped I am supposed to go over there at the end of the week and work with them on getting the particulars ironed out.
[19:30:51] <_methods> i love doing prototype stuff but no one ever wants to pay
[19:31:11] <_methods> we always end up eating tons of R&D
[19:31:13] <PetefromTn_> Actually everything I have made for them so far they paid 100% in advance believe it or not.
[19:31:39] <_methods> well i think that they call that a good customer
[19:31:42] <_methods> so i'd keep them lol
[19:31:55] <PetefromTn_> I WISH I could get this damn CNC lathe up and running they have a bunch of parts they want turned
[19:32:01] <Jymmm> _methods: and DOUBLE your normal price too
[19:32:08] <PetefromTn_> LOL yeah I like the guys too they are pretty cool
[19:32:35] <PetefromTn_> the cars they are building are kickass.... I drool like crazy over there it's like a candy store
[19:32:50] <Jymmm> _methods: Either you'll start getting paid, or they'll stop leeching =)
[19:32:58] <_methods> yeah
[19:35:01] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4845929078.html
[19:35:45] <_methods> lol
[19:35:51] <_methods> $50?
[19:36:06] <_methods> no plasma cutter lol
[19:36:22] <_methods> but you can have the shitty table lol
[19:36:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah and for the low low price of only $6k
[19:37:25] <_methods> gotta go to atlanta on thursday and get that granite surface plate
[19:37:33] <_methods> 4'x8'x16" lol
[19:37:37] <PetefromTn_> better limber up heh
[19:37:40] <_methods> yeah
[19:37:45] <malcom2073> Woohoo, my 2600mm THK rails arrived
[19:37:48] <_methods> i got 2 lista cabinets for $50/ea
[19:38:03] <PetefromTn_> where's my $50.00 fourth axis dude?!
[19:38:05] <_methods> they bid the vidmars up and everyone ignored the listas
[19:38:20] <_methods> i'm watchin for you
[19:38:32] <malcom2073> Course... now I don't need the damn rails for a while :/
[19:38:34] <_methods> but i've been in hell all this week with this paint catastrophe
[19:39:00] <PetefromTn_> ?
[19:39:18] <_methods> 4 pallets of parts came back with paint chippin off
[19:39:24] <_methods> about $50k worth of stuff
[19:39:39] <PetefromTn_> machined part you made?
[19:39:40] <_methods> but it's holding up like 3 p.o.'s for quailty
[19:39:44] <_methods> so it's more like $200k
[19:39:52] <_methods> quality even
[19:39:57] <_methods> yeah the parts are fine
[19:40:02] <_methods> it's the damn paint
[19:40:12] <_methods> our painter is a maroon
[19:40:14] <PetefromTn_> shoulda coated em
[19:40:24] <_methods> they're carc'd
[19:40:49] <_methods> something was contaminated
[19:41:03] <PetefromTn_> easy to do with paint
[19:41:05] <_methods> his air compressor died and the moron used a diesel compressor
[19:41:48] <_methods> he had the nerve to call askin for money today too lol
[19:43:15] <PetefromTn_> well that much screw up can maybe put a small shop under quick
[19:43:21] <_methods> yeah
[19:43:28] <_methods> hell we may not make it
[19:43:35] <_methods> he's definitely gone
[19:43:43] <_methods> after we back charge his ass
[19:43:59] <PetefromTn_> does not sound like fun
[19:44:02] <_methods> we gotta get it all blasted and repainted
[19:44:22] <_methods> and the aluminum parts wont' survive blasting
[19:44:26] <_methods> so we gotta remake all them
[19:44:38] <_methods> which is about 1000 parts lol
[19:44:43] <malcom2073> Damn
[19:44:48] <malcom2073> that's a hell of a mess :/
[19:44:58] <_methods> yeah
[19:45:00] <_methods> it sux
[19:46:12] <PetefromTn_> what sort of parts are they if you can say?
[19:46:22] <_methods> a bunch of diff brackets
[19:46:29] <_methods> nothing crazy
[19:46:32] <_methods> all sheet metal
[19:46:54] <_methods> but a lot of them have pems in them
[19:47:05] <XXCoder> 1k parts remade damn
[19:47:14] <_methods> probably about 400 parts had 8pems+ each
[19:47:18] <XXCoder> parts mats may be cheap bu8t its labor
[19:47:27] <PetefromTn_> how much time in the 1k parts?
[19:47:30] <_methods> but we may be able to save them
[19:47:30] <XXCoder> labor is worth 75% by time its ready to paint
[19:47:32] <_methods> oh man a lot
[19:47:45] <_methods> laser, brake, pems
[19:47:54] <XXCoder> 75% is a guess, likely more
[19:47:55] <_methods> luckily none of them are weld
[19:48:02] <XXCoder> _methods: what about chemical dissolve
[19:48:11] <PetefromTn_> soda blast?
[19:48:16] <XXCoder> alum is p0retty good on acid resistant
[19:48:22] <XXCoder> coke heh
[19:48:29] <_methods> they're all carc'd
[19:48:40] <XXCoder> carc'd?
[19:48:51] <_methods> carc paint
[19:48:57] <_methods> chemical resistant
[19:49:05] <_methods> nuclear biological chemical
[19:49:20] <XXCoder> ohhh
[19:49:25] <XXCoder> tough
[19:49:37] <_methods> yeah 2 part epoxy/polyester
[19:49:58] <_methods> it's a decent clusterfuck
[19:50:20] <_methods> i did about that many parts one time that all got welded and anodized
[19:50:29] <_methods> and the welders used the wrong rods
[19:50:36] <_methods> hehe parts with all kinds of labor in them
[19:50:39] <XXCoder> careful on handling though its illegal to charge workers for damage say
[19:50:42] <_methods> come back from anodize
[19:50:51] <_methods> and all the welds are a totally diff color
[19:51:07] <_methods> oh we subbed this out
[19:51:10] <_methods> we don't paint
[19:51:32] <_methods> that was a real disaster with the anodize
[19:51:51] <_methods> hardcoat black anodize lol
[19:53:02] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/TTYNFOK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LgNBd5E.jpg
[19:53:23] <XXCoder> nice job but not sure what it is
[19:53:34] <jdh> battery holder?
[19:53:44] <XXCoder> might be
[19:54:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah it is a custom battery tray that houses a very small car battery
[19:54:18] <_methods> yeah pretty
[19:54:43] <PetefromTn_> not bad..
[19:54:43] <jdh> how long for the engraving?
[19:54:59] <PetefromTn_> the engraving on each plate takes like a minute or three
[19:55:20] <jdh> looks cool
[19:55:24] <PetefromTn_> thanks
[19:55:49] <PetefromTn_> I worked hard on the them and they are now finally selling some so I will probably be making more once these are gone.
[19:56:01] <XXCoder> nice
[19:56:08] <XXCoder> dammit I need my own machine
[19:56:16] <PetefromTn_> To give an idea of size the top plate and bottom plate are the same size and are like 6.375x9.5"
[19:56:16] <XXCoder> im too lazy to work on mine :(
[19:56:32] <zeeshan> how much pete
[19:56:38] <_methods> pete you want a 12" hrt 310?
[19:56:38] <jdh> you need a cnc lathe with bar feeder for the supports
[19:57:07] <PetefromTn_> LOL actually I machined the supports/standoffs vertically in the mill and rigid tapped the 3/8-16 holes
[19:57:15] <PetefromTn_> but yeah a CNC lathe is COMIN'
[19:57:48] <XXCoder> whiloe tour I saw this weird hack - handdrill redesigned into a cnc tool
[19:58:00] <XXCoder> apparently it turns as needed so it can do 90 degree drills
[19:58:02] <PetefromTn_> Zeeshan not sure what they sell them for but if you really want one I will make you one for my price to them probably.
[19:58:05] <XXCoder> its seperately powered
[19:58:18] <XXCoder> 3 axis cnc
[19:58:23] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: just curious :)
[19:58:29] <PetefromTn_> ah
[19:58:31] <zeeshan> those like 200$ batterty covers!
[19:58:37] <zeeshan> looks great
[19:59:01] <zeeshan> but if its for a custom application
[19:59:04] <zeeshan> you can probably get more money?
[19:59:32] <zeeshan> ahve you seen the ones on the market?
[19:59:47] <PetefromTn_> yeah I am sure they probably are... LOL but they do look real nice.. These are only custom in that they have their name on them they could fit in almost any car. The other version was designed to fit in the stock RX7 Gen3 FD location...
[20:00:48] <PetefromTn_> there are some for the Optima batteries I saw that were quite reasonably priced. Probably made in bulk in China... but this is MUCH much smaller than those.
[20:00:49] <zeeshan> the ones ive seen are flimsy pos -- but are billet too
[20:00:53] <zeeshan> yours is nice
[20:01:08] <XXCoder> usa made nice.
[20:01:31] <PetefromTn_> Oh let me tell you these are STOUT! They were designed to stand up to hard cornering and house the battery snugly and solidly...
[20:01:32] <jdh> $375 for tray and battery
[20:01:46] <zeeshan> http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ml9vyi6ARstc-oTQIUji1Eg.jpg
[20:01:48] <zeeshan> im talking about those
[20:01:51] <zeeshan> they are like 70$
[20:01:54] <zeeshan> and a royal piece of ..
[20:02:54] <XXCoder> HMMM http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CNC-router-kit-metal-milling-machine-metal-engraving-machine-3050116C/32262332104.html
[20:03:32] <XXCoder> tiny though lol
[20:03:36] <CaptHindsight> it's sooo cute!
[20:04:53] <CaptHindsight> what is the knob for on the back of one of the stepper motors?
[20:05:24] <CaptHindsight> I see two with knobs and dials
[20:05:28] <XXCoder> manual im sure
[20:06:11] <CaptHindsight> looks like Acme screws
[20:07:03] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan Yeah that looks like a kinda flimsy sheetmetal thing.
[20:08:25] <CaptHindsight> good for milling custom chocolates
[20:08:37] <XXCoder> I bet yeah lol
[20:09:32] <CaptHindsight> the Chocomill-o-matic
[20:10:13] <CaptHindsight> stands up to the toughest darks, milk and even nut filled chocolates
[20:10:57] <_methods> heheh
[20:11:43] <PetefromTn_> I saw a thing recently where a guy used a little CNC router to make a chocolate MOLD for custom candy making that was kinda cool.
[20:12:36] <CaptHindsight> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mini-cnc-milling-machine-kit-D1-S-DIY-cnc-router-machine-3d-wood-carving-machines-3050115C/32261893250.html looks like this one comes without any of those pesky motors that just burn out
[20:13:11] <PetefromTn_> that thing looks like a miniature
[20:13:39] <CaptHindsight> converts any cheese slices into swiss in seconds
[20:14:18] <PetefromTn_> it slices......it dices........it juliennes!
[20:14:47] <SpeedEvil> I was actually considering making a CNC breadmachine earlier
[20:15:02] <SpeedEvil> As the ones I can find have totally stupid pans designed to fail.
[20:15:20] <SpeedEvil> And annoy me every time as I can't get the paddle out of the loaf cleanly
[20:15:22] <zeeshan> experts i need this clarified again
[20:15:38] <zeeshan> if you're working on shady electrical components with likely a 220vac to metal case short, and the metal case might be improperly grounded
[20:15:39] <PetefromTn_> operator error heh
[20:15:54] <zeeshan> do you guys as a safety check measure voltage between metal case and your body part with a mutimeter first?
[20:16:04] <zeeshan> same goes for say a neutral bus bar and your body
[20:16:07] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: NO
[20:16:17] <_methods> only if you want to be one with the metal
[20:16:29] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: your body is at a poorly defined voltage, possibly not well connected to anything
[20:16:38] <zeeshan> whats a good way to check
[20:16:40] <SpeedEvil> you care most about the voltage of the metal relative to adjacent metal
[20:16:57] <zeeshan> measure voltage between metal case and a known good ground?
[20:17:05] <CaptHindsight> well if it is a hot case or chassis then it won't be grounded
[20:17:09] <SpeedEvil> Step 0.
[20:17:18] <CaptHindsight> if that's the design intent
[20:17:19] <SpeedEvil> Turn off the electricity, do a ground test
[20:17:50] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i dont see why probing between case and your body
[20:17:55] <zeeshan> will shock you
[20:18:09] <zeeshan> hold red probe of multimeter to case
[20:18:16] <zeeshan> hold black to your body
[20:18:22] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: what body part do you have touching or protruding into the case?
[20:18:28] <zeeshan> not using autoranging
[20:18:38] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: not for cnc
[20:19:02] <zeeshan> i need tro test 3 things tomorrow suction pump, xray and compressor
[20:19:07] <zeeshan> all from unknown origins
[20:20:54] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it won't shock you
[20:20:59] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: that's the problem
[20:21:05] <zeeshan> whoops wrong chan
[20:21:09] <zeeshan> how do you do the ground test
[20:21:13] <zeeshan> i wanna make sure its what i have in mind
[20:21:48] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: if you are not well connected to ground, and you measure from your body to ground, you might get 10V. If you touch a hot machine, and actual ground (which would have measured 100VAC to ground - you may die.
[20:22:13] <SpeedEvil> Actual gloves are a reasonable precaution.
[20:22:33] <SpeedEvil> Some means of measuring from a known good ground connection in the building to the case of the machine
[20:22:52] <zeeshan> so ground in wall outlet
[20:23:03] <zeeshan> to case
[20:23:14] <zeeshan> with the plug disconnected
[20:23:20] <zeeshan> that doesnt make sense in my head lol
[20:24:03] <zeeshan> but yea i understand your concern.
[20:24:19] <zeeshan> where i am standing might have an influence on the return part of ground
[20:25:25] <SpeedEvil> Err - no - with the ground connected
[20:25:38] <zeeshan> that just tests ground is working
[20:25:41] <SpeedEvil> if you do that - you need to actually measure the ground on the outlet
[20:25:50] <SpeedEvil> that's OK too
[20:26:03] <SpeedEvil> but you then need to test the connection from the plug to the machine
[20:26:06] <zeeshan> how can i probe for short circuit
[20:26:11] <SpeedEvil> measure resistance
[20:26:14] <zeeshan> the only way i can think of is measureing the resistance
[20:26:14] <zeeshan> yea
[20:26:20] <zeeshan> between 1 live lead to chassis
[20:26:25] <zeeshan> if there is continuity, we have an issue.
[20:26:30] <SpeedEvil> that too
[20:26:37] <zeeshan> but see in a 110vac thats a bit misleading
[20:26:42] <zeeshan> i found this out the otehr day when testing my breaker panel
[20:27:03] <zeeshan> if you have 110vac device connected to the wall and you try to measure resistance between l1 at the terminal bus bar
[20:27:05] <zeeshan> to ground
[20:27:11] <zeeshan> you'll measure resistance.
[20:27:24] <zeeshan> it's making a return path all the way through the device, back the neutral
[20:27:32] <zeeshan> and bonded at ground at the panel
[20:28:03] <zeeshan> i'm just trying to come up with a procedure that works in most cases
[20:28:17] <zeeshan> 1. measure resistance between known hot lead and metal chasis of LOAD disconnected from wall
[20:28:24] <zeeshan> (obviously, you will blow up your meter)
[20:28:31] <zeeshan> if you try to connect it to a live load.
[20:28:40] <zeeshan> 2. measure neutral to case.
[20:29:13] <zeeshan> 3. turn of branch breaker, plug in device to wall. measure resistance between known good earth and case to ensure return path to earth
[20:29:28] <zeeshan> i think if you follow these 3 steps, you should never get shocked
[20:29:48] <zeeshan> ps. i hate working on shady used components :/
[20:30:14] <cpresser> laser ftw: http://imgur.com/a/JmoYv
[20:30:33] <zeeshan> wow thats cool
[20:30:51] <malcom2073> That reminds me, I saw a $500 version of the $700 bluebox chinese special the other day
[20:31:07] <malcom2073> Wow, that is really cool
[20:31:20] <zeeshan> people who work on smt electronics amaze me
[20:32:25] <zeeshan> i found a fault with my 3 step procedure
[20:32:25] <cpresser> a microscope does help a lot. at least for jobs like this one
[20:32:29] <zeeshan> it does not test insulation.
[20:32:33] <zeeshan> :-(
[20:32:59] <zeeshan> cpresser: did you do that yourself?
[20:33:30] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/uQL8pMi.jpg Nice pic of my dog that scared us running away today that my wife took back in the summer. We got him back tho... crazy dog.
[20:35:03] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5-hp-electric-motor-213t-or-213tc-1800-rpm-severe-duty-two-year-warranty/271615655871?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27673%26meid%3Dfb42a983a4684154930f91482595214f%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161411123169&rt=nc I need one of these for like half price LOL...
[20:36:55] <cpresser> zeeshan: yes, just an hour ago
[20:37:14] <cpresser> zeeshan: but i am also the person which fucked it up in the first place :D
[20:37:30] <jdh> what did you do to it?
[20:38:10] <_methods> he broke it
[20:38:17] <_methods> lol
[20:39:36] <cpresser> solder with 450°Celsius. because i didnt look at the setting on the iron
[20:40:31] <cpresser> that did delaimate some pads, so i had to work around that
[20:41:26] <_methods> well that is one impressive fix
[20:42:10] <jdh> yep
[20:42:54] <_methods> you sir are an electrical god
[20:43:08] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsudakoma-4th-Axis-Rotary-Table-/251686632028?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3a99b13a5c NICE,,
[20:43:32] <zeeshan> cpresser that is very impressive man.
[20:43:34] <_methods> way too clean
[20:43:36] <_methods> that scares me
[20:44:23] <_methods> but for that price screw it
[20:46:35] <jdh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261728258693
[20:46:38] <PetefromTn_> too clean?
[20:47:15] <XXCoder> cleaned to hide extreme damage
[20:47:18] <_methods> yeah clean paint lol
[20:47:28] <XXCoder> like brust oil hoses or something
[20:47:49] <PetefromTn_> heh still it looks nice.
[20:47:51] <zeeshan> honestly i dont like these lathes
[20:48:03] <zeeshan> they dont have the center to center distance
[20:48:12] <zeeshan> theyre good if youre making little stuff
[20:48:25] <PetefromTn_> a lot of turning centers are like that.
[20:48:29] <zeeshan> yea man
[20:48:37] <zeeshan> its hard to find one with a 36" c-c even
[20:48:40] <PetefromTn_> only the big ones usually have tailstocks and long Z travels
[20:48:44] <zeeshan> yea!
[20:48:47] <jdh> it's $800, who cares.
[20:48:50] <zeeshan> daewoo makes one
[20:48:53] <PetefromTn_> which is why I chose the lathe I did..
[20:48:54] <_methods> puma
[20:48:58] <_methods> puma is a good lathe
[20:49:04] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: yea your lathe is good
[20:49:13] <zeeshan> but problem with your lathe is its not slantbed
[20:49:15] <PetefromTn_> its okay for what I need to do with it.
[20:49:24] <zeeshan> so it limits the ATC options
[20:49:28] <PetefromTn_> I got a floor jack
[20:49:31] <_methods> daewoo/doosan makes great lathes
[20:49:38] <zeeshan> _methods: really?
[20:49:45] <_methods> they used to do the castings for okuma and stole all their designs lol
[20:49:57] <PetefromTn_> I will be adding a cross slide mounted toolchanger at some point.
[20:50:01] <XXCoder> make a huge lathe or something lol
[20:50:02] <_methods> japan outsourced all their castings to korea back in the day
[20:50:16] <_methods> and they ripped all of okuma's designs lol
[20:51:05] <_methods> so if you get a daewoo/doosan you're basically getting an okuma with a fanuc controller on it
[20:51:13] <_methods> instead of the fancy okuma controller
[20:51:56] <zeeshan> after seeing ssi's dealings with fanuc
[20:52:03] <zeeshan> they seem hard to retrofit
[20:52:42] <zeeshan> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-buy-sell-other/mississauga-peel-region/emcoturn-340-cnc-lathe/1038272981?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
[20:52:44] <zeeshan> i was looking at this
[20:52:54] <zeeshan> i dont see how this small lathe has a 30" distance between centers
[20:54:18] <_methods> it probably does without that collet chuck in there
[20:54:56] <_methods> and i'd bet they are measuring to the spindle face without chuck or something cheesey like that
[20:55:03] <zeeshan> yea
[20:55:07] <zeeshan> it doesnt seem that big
[20:55:13] <zeeshan> that almost looks as big as the machine jdh posted
[20:55:42] <_methods> for $800 that old mazak isn't bad
[20:55:53] <_methods> i may hate mazatrol but they do actually make solid machines
[20:59:25] <zeeshan> _methods: are you a cnc machinist
[20:59:30] <_methods> yeah
[20:59:39] <zeeshan> youve ran various machines :)
[20:59:50] <zeeshan> i only have experience with sinumerik and fanuc i series control
[20:59:59] <PetefromTn_> the last shop I worked in had a large mazak lathe and it was pretty nice...
[21:00:04] <_methods> i've ran alot of diff machines
[21:00:23] <zeeshan> i was an "operations technician"
[21:00:33] <zeeshan> had to fix those machines reading manuals that were huge
[21:00:38] <_methods> haas, enshu, meldas, cinci, amada, trumpf, mitsubishi.............
[21:00:41] <_methods> on and on
[21:00:47] <zeeshan> but usually most of the time it was issues with stupid things
[21:00:53] <zeeshan> like operator not checking fluid level
[21:00:55] <_methods> it's always something stupid
[21:00:56] <zeeshan> machine goes in limp mode
[21:01:15] <zeeshan> i think the worst two jobs was
[21:01:21] <zeeshan> replacing the 300 lb grinder wheel
[21:01:29] <zeeshan> and when someone decided to crash the spindle
[21:01:35] <zeeshan> replace the spindle
[21:01:40] <_methods> almost lost my arm in a mazak ajv
[21:01:44] <zeeshan> ajv?
[21:01:49] <_methods> yeah
[21:01:56] <zeeshan> vmc
[21:01:57] <_methods> it's a vmc with a pallet changer
[21:02:13] <zeeshan> ours were emags vl5
[21:02:18] <_methods> guy comes and gets me and tells me the machine quit workin and he can't figure out why
[21:02:31] <_methods> i go over there and take a look and see the tool changer door is open
[21:02:35] <_methods> chips had it stuck
[21:02:49] <_methods> i wasn't thinkin and grabbed a chip hoe and freed the door
[21:02:58] <_methods> didn't hit estop like an idiot
[21:03:08] <_methods> tool changed and pallet while i was in machine
[21:03:59] <PetefromTn_> HOLY CRAP
[21:04:07] <_methods> it was fjv
[21:04:08] <PetefromTn_> you are lucky it did not squash your ass
[21:04:09] <_methods> not ajv
[21:04:11] <_methods> yeah
[21:04:21] <_methods> it ripped my shirt off and a chunk out of my shoulder
[21:04:21] <zeeshan> _methods: nice
[21:04:36] <_methods> i hated that machine before that
[21:04:42] <_methods> setup was a nightmare
[21:04:47] <zeeshan> it got its revenge on you!
[21:04:49] <zeeshan> for hating it
[21:04:49] <_methods> everything was backwards from how you set it up
[21:05:00] <zeeshan> you shoulda melted it
[21:05:06] <PetefromTn_> when I was working in that last shop the guy I worked with was machining a large tall radiused arc piece and the machine had a swingarm toolchanger..
[21:05:27] <PetefromTn_> when the program moved the part to the left the tool swingarm was in interference with the part
[21:05:38] <PetefromTn_> and that freakin' swingarm is FAST
[21:05:43] <zeeshan> _methods: out of curisouty, was this a iso9001 facility
[21:05:48] <_methods> yeah
[21:05:58] <zeeshan> im suprised they dont have strict procedures?
[21:06:13] <norias> i'm not
[21:06:25] <zeeshan> like at the company i was at
[21:06:27] <PetefromTn_> luckily it is also powerful and just snapped the freakin' tool off and loaded the new tool
[21:06:29] <XXCoder> lol I saw hurco vm2 (old machine) with tall tooling in it. it was so tall tool swing arm would hit it if it ever changed tools. thankfully program dont
[21:06:31] <zeeshan> if you didnt put a lock on the cage..
[21:06:32] <norias> hmm
[21:06:37] <zeeshan> you would get fired on the spot
[21:06:40] <zeeshan> (robot cage)
[21:06:41] <norias> iso 9001 basically says
[21:06:45] <norias> write down what you do
[21:06:46] <XXCoder> but yeah guy would have to move it all way down to other end to change tools lol
[21:06:49] <norias> do what you wrote down
[21:07:07] <PetefromTn_> scared the crap out of us for a minute there LOL..
[21:07:16] <_methods> http://www.mastergroup.it/scheda_tecnica.asp?Id=1081&lang=it
[21:07:20] <norias> so, if you write down "Sam looks at the setup and gives a thumbs up or down, and we record that."
[21:07:21] <_methods> there that bastard is
[21:07:25] <norias> and if that's what you do
[21:07:31] <norias> iso 9001 for you!
[21:07:36] <_methods> i'd love to buy one just to go all office space on it
[21:08:32] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: scary heh
[21:08:35] <PetefromTn_> It's big enough to put your office in it heh
[21:09:07] <PetefromTn_> yeah man pucker factor was high on that one. if the tool came loose it would have thrown it Lord knows where...
[21:09:13] <zeeshan> _methods ROFL
[21:09:16] <XXCoder> one of minor annoyances of machine I work on - once a rare while it would fail to turn completely and tool holder drops tool expecting holder to be there
[21:09:19] <zeeshan> you really hate it
[21:09:26] <PetefromTn_> how'd ya like a Cat50 sammich...
[21:09:28] <XXCoder> it usually dents part iim making
[21:09:50] <_methods> it was so horrible that thing changing tools you have to get in machine and the damn coolant is drippin all over your head and back
[21:11:43] <PetefromTn_> when I ran that VF6 it was like that. The table is so big and the spindle so far away from the OP position you pretty much have to crawl inside to reach it..
[21:12:07] <norias> ahh yes, vf-6
[21:12:12] <PetefromTn_> someone needs to make some kinda reach arm to load tools...
[21:12:14] <XXCoder> how the hell do you find x,y,z with spidle meters away
[21:12:16] <_methods> well i don't mind on giant VMC like VF6
[21:12:33] <norias> we ran the doors on those open
[21:12:34] <_methods> but the fjv was like climbing into a nasty stinky coolant cave
[21:12:35] <PetefromTn_> well honestly you climb your ass in there and do it LOL
[21:12:49] <XXCoder> jeez lol
[21:12:49] <norias> i'd sit on the door ledge
[21:13:10] <PetefromTn_> there are actually little tread plates on each side of the apron for you to stand on and supposedly they are out of the danger area
[21:13:32] <zeeshan> _methods: do you like haas machines?
[21:13:38] <PetefromTn_> there sure is something to be said about that table's acreage tho...
[21:13:52] <_methods> haas is the only machine i'd never buy
[21:13:54] <PetefromTn_> its like the deck of an aircraft carrier
[21:14:03] <norias> hmm
[21:14:05] <zeeshan> _methods: thats what ithought
[21:14:09] <zeeshan> any professional cnc machinists i talk to
[21:14:10] <zeeshan> hate haas
[21:14:24] <norias> i'm ok with haas
[21:14:27] <_methods> our piece of shit sl-30 is down right now
[21:14:29] <norias> i heard all the nit-picks about them
[21:14:31] <zeeshan> ive been do a lot of different automotive parts tier 1 suppliers
[21:14:35] <zeeshan> and have never seen a haas there
[21:14:37] <_methods> vector drive shit the bed
[21:14:39] <PetefromTn_> I hear that a lot but honestly what I have seen of them has been nothing but positive
[21:14:43] <norias> but they hold decent tolerances
[21:14:51] <_methods> there is only one good thing about haas
[21:14:51] <norias> they are maint. heavy, though
[21:14:52] <XXCoder> haas meh. it has weird gui but then im used to hurcos
[21:15:04] <_methods> they break so much the maintenance guys are freakin incredible
[21:15:07] <zeeshan> i wonder why the tier 1 guys dont use them?
[21:15:08] <zeeshan> ah
[21:15:10] <XXCoder> norias: no kidding.
[21:15:10] <zeeshan> not reliable
[21:15:13] <norias> ha!
[21:15:21] <norias> ours is always...
[21:15:22] <_methods> they can build a whole haas from all their trucks
[21:15:26] <PetefromTn_> never really seen that either
[21:15:33] <norias> i think it doesn't like our 3-phase
[21:15:37] <zeeshan> hahaha
[21:15:38] <zeeshan> thats funny
[21:15:39] <norias> i think it would be a decent machine
[21:15:44] <norias> if i replaced the controller
[21:15:45] <XXCoder> zeeshan: $100k for huge car sized cnc router compared to 500k for tiny hurco vm10. yeah
[21:15:50] <XXCoder> much lower quality
[21:15:53] <norias> the place i work in
[21:16:00] <norias> has good reason to have weird power
[21:16:06] <roycroft> does anyone know where to get seamless square tubing (1018)?
[21:16:09] <norias> we basically charge and discharge huge batteries
[21:16:13] <norias> on random cycles
[21:16:18] <PetefromTn_> three different shops here I worked in have mostly HAAS VMC's and I don't think I ever saw but one time they had the service guys there...
[21:16:22] <norias> gives that machine fits
[21:16:28] <_methods> well they are lucky
[21:16:33] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: one I toured has all haas
[21:16:33] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: they dont use their machines enough
[21:16:35] <_methods> we got a haas horizontal
[21:16:38] <_methods> and sent it back
[21:16:39] <zeeshan> :)
[21:16:43] <PetefromTn_> like hell
[21:16:47] <_methods> they actually had to come take their machine back
[21:16:49] <XXCoder> from acient one with monocolor tube montiors
[21:16:50] <_methods> funny as fuck
[21:16:56] <zeeshan> for tier 1 suppliers
[21:17:03] <zeeshan> the poor machines are doing the same operation again and again
[21:17:05] <PetefromTn_> the first shop I worked in had like twenty of them runnning 24/7
[21:17:06] <_methods> that was the only time i'd ever seen that
[21:17:29] <norias> i've only worked in two shops with haas
[21:17:43] <_methods> i've had them in every shop i've ever worked in
[21:17:47] <_methods> at least 1
[21:17:48] <norias> the first one was all haas, and i was only there a couple months as a temp
[21:17:56] <norias> but we have one in the shop i run now
[21:18:00] <norias> and it's...
[21:18:06] <_methods> there's 2 machines i'd never buy i lied earlier
[21:18:15] <_methods> i'd NEVER EVER buy an esab
[21:18:15] <norias> it did good for a while
[21:18:15] <norias> but i'm always buying parts for it
[21:18:27] <PetefromTn_> I will say that two of the three shops I worked in had all BRAND NEW HAAS machines that were less than two years old or newer...
[21:18:30] <norias> i bought some ... old milltronics machine
[21:18:34] <_methods> that esab was a steaming pile of shit
[21:18:49] <norias> the milltronics held up pretty good, and is a neat controller
[21:18:53] <_methods> yeah
[21:18:57] <PetefromTn_> what about these machines was so shitty methods?
[21:19:02] <_methods> which one
[21:19:03] <_methods> the esab
[21:19:03] <norias> but now it's dead :(
[21:19:09] <norias> and it's getting linuxcnc
[21:19:11] <_methods> the esab wow where to begin
[21:19:14] <norias> (hence me being here)
[21:19:28] <zeeshan> from my understanding methods is saying is haas machines are unreliable in his exp
[21:19:40] <zeeshan> methods what do you think of makino
[21:19:42] <PetefromTn_> yeah we got that thanks
[21:19:48] <_methods> makino is good
[21:19:54] <_methods> for high production small parts
[21:19:55] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: then why ask ?
[21:20:22] <_methods> yes i've had horrible luck with haas
[21:20:22] <PetefromTn_> I was interested in specifics
[21:20:27] <_methods> the esab
[21:20:54] <XXCoder> haas had its motors overheat in shop I work at. it's still less than year old
[21:21:01] <zeeshan> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/why-does-haas-have-bad-rep-some-people-227911/
[21:21:03] <zeeshan> lol
[21:21:05] <XXCoder> it was fixed and modified to keep cooler
[21:21:11] <zeeshan> "Mostly because they only build light weight machines. All their spindle data is inflated and they are not rigid enough to be dedicated steel milling machines IMO."
[21:21:22] <_methods> oh man the controller was fucked, there was no cooling in the drive cabinet over the gantry on plasma/oxy, they packed the cable carrier so tight the hoses all abraded and we had an oxy acetylene leak
[21:21:26] <_methods> that was a fun one
[21:21:27] <zeeshan> people just have mixed experiences
[21:21:45] <XXCoder> ouch metho
[21:21:50] <norias> i dunno
[21:21:51] <_methods> and esab is 45min away
[21:21:55] <PetefromTn_> thats funny because the first shop I worked in ONLY made tool steel parts predominately
[21:22:04] <_methods> and it took them 3 weeks to come fix the oxy acetylene leak
[21:22:16] <zeeshan> Haas spindle, 10HP "rated", in the cut tested with actual load, MRR, and other calculated data, actual output was 3HP!!!!! WOW, special!! That was all it would handle before stalling the spindle. Mori spindle, 10HP "rated" BUT is constant HP all to way from 500-6000rpm. This is because that 10HP Mori is actually using a 35HP spindle motor tuned in so it will produce an increase in torque when the
[21:22:18] <zeeshan> interesting
[21:22:24] <norias> i've done quite a bit of tool steel on our haas
[21:22:27] <zeeshan> ok f this comparison
[21:22:37] <zeeshan> i just know haas hasnt been used at a tier 1 suppleir
[21:22:39] <norias> issue is, a lot of folks don't understand how to program
[21:22:39] <zeeshan> so something is up
[21:22:40] <norias> i think
[21:22:50] <zeeshan> tier 1 suppliers cant afford breakdowns
[21:23:05] <_methods> tier 1 you'll see okuma, dmg, mori
[21:23:13] <zeeshan> methods pretty much what isaw
[21:23:14] <zeeshan> and "emag"
[21:23:16] <norias> i honestly think it's the controllers
[21:23:18] <zeeshan> even those they are a royal pos.
[21:23:20] <PetefromTn_> I have heard about the inflated power number and don't know what to say about it really..
[21:23:30] <XXCoder> zeeshan: so far hurco is good experence for me, but even used one is pricier than new cars
[21:23:43] <zeeshan> XXCoder: im sure its great
[21:23:48] <_methods> personally i think the best bang for the buck is doosan
[21:23:55] <_methods> doosan/daewoo
[21:23:56] <zeeshan> i havent seen one at a tier 1 supplier though
[21:24:01] <_methods> but that's just my take
[21:24:03] <_methods> you won't
[21:24:13] <_methods> they're not tier 1 level
[21:24:14] <PetefromTn_> daewoo is nice they have one here
[21:24:15] <zeeshan> its pretty much dMG DMG DMG
[21:24:18] <zeeshan> mori mori mori
[21:24:24] <_methods> like i said all you'll see is okuma dmg and mori
[21:24:25] <zeeshan> these guys literally buy a machine
[21:24:28] <PetefromTn_> Kia makes a decent machine too
[21:24:29] <zeeshan> run it to the ground for 3 years
[21:24:31] <zeeshan> replace it
[21:24:33] <zeeshan> and repeat.
[21:24:50] <_methods> and now mori is dmg
[21:24:57] <_methods> or dmg is mori?
[21:24:57] <XXCoder> heh theres unknown brand router table at place I work at - its 11 years old
[21:24:58] <_methods> lol
[21:25:07] <XXCoder> it just got refabished
[21:25:27] <XXCoder> bad issues with ball screws and such
[21:25:31] <norias> anyway i was saying
[21:25:43] <norias> i think haas doesn't have a complete enough product line
[21:25:54] <norias> for a tier 1 shop to buy in to
[21:25:54] <PetefromTn_> the guy that owns the shop with the twenty or more HAAS machines swears by them
[21:26:03] <_methods> we don't have much at the shop i'm at now but we have flow waterjet, komatsu plasma, trumpf laser, and 3 haas, and one yama seiki
[21:26:04] <zeeshan> norias: maybe they dont have the relaibility record
[21:26:08] <norias> maybe
[21:26:12] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: but that is bias right?
[21:26:24] <norias> but i think retraining is a bigger concern
[21:26:30] <norias> buy stuff from the same company
[21:26:32] <zeeshan> thats a good point
[21:26:34] <norias> they all work the same
[21:26:36] <norias> etc
[21:26:40] <zeeshan> the thing is..
[21:26:42] <PetefromTn_> bias how? his father has been in the trades for years and they setup with all HAAS
[21:26:51] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: hes only ever bought haas
[21:26:52] <zeeshan> thats why
[21:26:55] <PetefromTn_> no
[21:26:57] <norias> so, i think if you are starting from scratch
[21:27:07] <norias> and the line offering of haas fits your business
[21:27:11] <norias> then it can work
[21:27:15] <zeeshan> norias: honestly i dont know if retraining is a big deal
[21:27:20] <norias> but they make a kind of limited line
[21:27:22] <PetefromTn_> his father still runs a big shop in NY and they have all sorts of machines there apparently..
[21:27:23] <norias> well...
[21:27:28] <_methods> i agree i'd use a haas if i had to
[21:27:30] <_methods> we do it every day
[21:27:35] <norias> so, thing is
[21:27:37] <XXCoder> norias: with very good maintance person sure
[21:27:43] <_methods> but if I had to choose and i had other options i'd take them
[21:27:44] <zeeshan> like the machine operators at these places are usually just pushing cycle start and doing spc checks
[21:27:50] <XXCoder> if shop is big enough for one probably better get better ones thouggh
[21:27:54] <norias> i've gotten a view of how board room shit works
[21:27:55] <norias> etc
[21:27:57] <zeeshan> i guess the operation technicians need to relearn the controls
[21:28:07] <norias> spec'd out a shop with a VP of a new company
[21:28:17] <norias> they pretty much think machinists are dumb
[21:28:23] <zeeshan> norias: they do haha
[21:28:31] <norias> at least this guy did
[21:28:36] <zeeshan> _anyone_ on the floor is expendable
[21:28:38] <zeeshan> :(
[21:28:54] <norias> so i buy the argument that they just don't think
[21:28:58] <norias> if you run a haas one day
[21:29:05] <norias> you can run a dmg the next
[21:29:18] <norias> now, if you've been a machinist and are starting your own shop
[21:29:24] <norias> you know that's a dumb assumption
[21:29:28] <zeeshan> yea i totally agree
[21:29:35] <PetefromTn_> why?
[21:29:38] <zeeshan> to them it almost becomes a liability
[21:29:44] <zeeshan> cause if someone kills themself on the new machine
[21:29:50] <zeeshan> and they didnt provide adequate training
[21:29:51] <zeeshan> they cvan get owned
[21:30:02] <norias> sort of
[21:30:07] <PetefromTn_> who the hell puts an untrained machinist on a machine?
[21:30:08] <norias> it's also easier on supply chain
[21:30:14] <norias> they just buy the same shit
[21:30:15] <_methods> yeah shit don't work that way in a job shop lol
[21:30:17] <norias> you make a del
[21:30:20] <norias> deal
[21:30:27] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: when youre pressing cycle start
[21:30:29] <zeeshan> and doing spc checks
[21:30:30] <_methods> maybe in giant drone factories
[21:30:33] <zeeshan> it doesnt matter what machine youre running
[21:30:33] <norias> for a certain number of years
[21:30:43] <zeeshan> thats pretty much what most machine operators do
[21:30:46] <_methods> those are button monkeys
[21:30:47] <norias> PetefromTn_: define trained machinist
[21:31:02] <zeeshan> you will RARELY find machine operators doing that at a tier 1 place
[21:31:03] <zeeshan> they cost too much
[21:31:25] <zeeshan> _methods: how much do you think those button monkeys make
[21:31:25] <zeeshan> haha
[21:31:27] <PetefromTn_> if you are simply talking about heavy production and preprogrammed parts then yeah
[21:31:41] <_methods> depends on where you're at
[21:31:42] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: thats tier 1 pretty much
[21:31:48] <zeeshan> same old shit every day
[21:31:53] <_methods> at bosch here they make maybe $16/hr
[21:32:02] <zeeshan> _methods: up here they make 22 bux an hour
[21:32:09] <zeeshan> for spc check and running 3 machines each
[21:32:12] <_methods> for a button monkey?
[21:32:15] <zeeshan> YEA
[21:32:21] <norias> same old shit is reliable profit
[21:32:21] <PetefromTn_> but the convo is not just about tier 1 you keep bringing up
[21:32:21] <norias> cash flow
[21:32:21] <norias> plus if i'm your customer
[21:32:25] <norias> i don't want shit programmed on the shop floor
[21:32:29] <_methods> well that's not too bad not sure what the cost of livin is up there
[21:32:40] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: for me tier1 matters a lot
[21:32:49] <zeeshan> cause its _what the main thinks is good_
[21:32:53] <zeeshan> mainstream
[21:33:00] <XXCoder> tier 1,2,3 so on means what?
[21:33:01] <PetefromTn_> that is a good wage around here button pushers here make less than half that much sometimes..
[21:33:14] <zeeshan> XXCoder: tier 1 supplier will directly ship parts to ford
[21:33:32] <zeeshan> so say youre making a transmission , tier 1 will make the gears etc
[21:33:39] <Jymmm> Any idead on how to get 12VDC from somethng the rough size of 2 or 3 AA batteries?
[21:33:41] <zeeshan> tier 2 might make the harness for the tier 1 supplier's transmission
[21:33:53] <_methods> boost regulator
[21:34:01] <XXCoder> ahh thanks
[21:34:04] <zeeshan> with ford.. if you ship 10 bad transmissions in 1 month
[21:34:06] <Jymmm> _methods: tyvm
[21:34:09] <zeeshan> you lose your q1 certification
[21:34:33] <zeeshan> (you need to meet six sigma qualification)
[21:34:43] <Jymmm> _methods: I knew there's a reason I keep you around ;)
[21:34:45] <zeeshan> basically if yuou lose that, you company cant ship parts to ford anymore
[21:34:48] <_methods> hehe
[21:34:53] <_methods> trying to find you a good one now
[21:35:17] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Boost-Buck-Step-Up-Step-Down-Voltage-adjustable-5V-12v-24v-/251081920849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a75a61151
[21:35:40] <_methods> 3.5v in
[21:35:47] <norias> won't that destroy batt life?
[21:36:02] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Boost-Converter-3-12V-to-12V-12W-Step-up-Mobile-Power-Supply-Module-/300843367313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460ba97b91
[21:36:20] <_methods> he just said he wanted to boost to 12v
[21:36:25] <_methods> not extend battery life lol
[21:36:25] <Jymmm> _methods: It's got to be long and skiny (like 1xAA battery)
[21:36:26] <norias> fair
[21:36:39] <_methods> that 2nd one is kinda skinny
[21:36:44] <_methods> they're pretty small
[21:36:54] <norias> <- works at a battery company
[21:37:06] <Jymmm> oh dimensions!!!
[21:37:11] <Jymmm> norias: int he USA?
[21:37:12] * PetefromTn_ thinks JYMM is making the SUPER vibrator for himself LOL
[21:37:19] <norias> Jymmm: yes.
[21:37:25] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-1-5V-to-12V-1200mA-max-DC-Converter-Boost-Step-up-Power-Supply-Module-/190898613298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7271ac32
[21:37:31] <_methods> that one is really cool
[21:37:33] * furrywolf wouldn't mind a super vibrator
[21:37:33] <XXCoder> zeeshan: any way to recover? heh
[21:37:35] <_methods> looks super small
[21:37:42] <norias> i know more about some batteries than i ever wanted to
[21:37:46] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Nah, your wife placed a special order for 100 units...
[21:37:50] <zeeshan> XXCoder: absolutely 0 idea on that
[21:37:50] <zeeshan> haha
[21:37:57] <XXCoder> lol ok
[21:38:11] <PetefromTn_> heh
[21:38:19] <furrywolf> speaking of super vibrators... zeeshan: what's this about having a fiance that can build things? I want one too!
[21:38:29] <XXCoder> I dont think I will get to professional machine my own level but I do want small projects stuff
[21:38:29] <zeeshan> hahaha
[21:38:38] <Jymmm> _methods: .75" maybe, thank you.
[21:38:44] <_methods> the pcb on that last on is 23mm x 13mm
[21:38:45] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Sorry, couldn't resist
[21:39:00] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know you are that guy man...LOL
[21:39:18] <PetefromTn_> but I laid it out for ya
[21:39:21] <_methods> heheh
[21:39:22] <zeeshan> theres two people who are master trolls in this channel
[21:39:25] <zeeshan> Jymmm and jdh
[21:39:26] <zeeshan> lol
[21:39:30] <PetefromTn_> and Zeeshan
[21:39:34] <zeeshan> sometimes :/
[21:39:39] <Jymmm> norias: Like AA or car SLA type batteries?
[21:39:41] <Jymmm> zeeshan: ?
[21:40:00] <Jymmm> iron?
[21:40:02] <norias> Jymmm: hmm, like big batteries that ...
[21:40:14] <norias> power houses and up
[21:40:22] <Jymmm> norias: Iron?
[21:40:27] <norias> similar cost structure to lead acid
[21:40:27] <Jymmm> Fe
[21:40:31] <norias> eh
[21:40:35] <furrywolf> norias: want to send me some? my solar system is sucking care of failed batteries.
[21:40:39] <norias> we call it Aquious Hybrid Ion
[21:40:59] <Jymmm> norias: Ah, I'm looking for a couple iron bateries is all
[21:41:04] <norias> furrywolf: we just got a distributor for solar systems... i'd have to look for that name
[21:41:15] <norias> brb
[21:41:18] <PetefromTn_> I got a project a good customer wants me to work on here.
[21:41:30] <PetefromTn_> it is a somewhat complex project
[21:41:48] <PetefromTn_> that requires two joints that move in the same plane arc
[21:42:10] <PetefromTn_> yet it has to lock in positions along that arc.
[21:42:12] <Jymmm> _methods: That might work perfectly, I can just shrinkwrap the entire thing
[21:42:17] <_methods> yeah
[21:42:18] <PetefromTn_> so basically two pivot points
[21:42:21] <_methods> they usually do
[21:42:31] <_methods> for those quadcopter esc's
[21:42:32] <PetefromTn_> on one arm
[21:42:39] <furrywolf> hrmm, I'm not familiar with that chemistry at all.
[21:42:47] <_methods> you can search esc and find them already shrinkwrapped probably
[21:43:03] <Jymmm> _methods: Nah, I need to solder leads on
[21:43:17] <_methods> k
[21:43:34] <PetefromTn_> trying to think of a good mechanism that can have a good movement yet lock down tight at most angles and stay put.
[21:43:43] <Jymmm> out from one module into that, out to another =)
[21:44:19] <Jymmm> Then attempt to break Faraday's Law =)
[21:44:23] <norias> back
[21:44:39] <Jymmm> WB
[21:44:47] <norias> furrywolf: it's brand new. just on the market like... this yearish
[21:44:55] <furrywolf> hrmm
[21:44:58] <norias> yeah
[21:45:17] <furrywolf> so completely untested with no real-world performance data. :P
[21:45:25] <norias> how many kwh do you use?
[21:45:29] <norias> not quite
[21:45:38] <norias> we.. have sent them all over the world
[21:45:40] <norias> for beta testing
[21:45:49] <norias> over the past... i want to say three years
[21:46:00] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4846015421.html It's like a box of Chocolates....ya never know what you are gonna get...
[21:46:30] <norias> how old are your batteries? lead acid?
[21:46:54] <furrywolf> my current bank, pre-failure, was 400Ah @ 24V... double would be better.
[21:47:00] <norias> hmm
[21:47:02] <XXCoder> haas ui http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f43/35769d1308930298-why-does-haas-have-bad-rep-some-people-haas_crash.jpg
[21:47:06] <XXCoder> welcome to dos
[21:47:08] <norias> that's small
[21:47:12] <XXCoder> or windows 2
[21:47:22] <furrywolf> lead-acid, various ages, all purchased used, all at the end of their life...
[21:47:29] <norias> ahhh
[21:47:49] <norias> yeah, and then you are cycling them in likely an evil cycle regime
[21:47:51] <furrywolf> I also have 600Ah @ 24V of NiFe, but they need an electrolyte change, which is ~$1000 and a weekend of mixing buckets of caustic chemicals.
[21:47:59] <norias> nice
[21:48:06] <PetefromTn_> that is just one screen and looks like the toolpath viewer..which is very limited really..
[21:48:16] <norias> hmm
[21:48:23] <norias> are those running on the same inverter?
[21:48:29] <furrywolf> No idea if they work. I got them from someone who got them in the mid '80s, used them until they stopped working in the mid '90s, then let them sit outside until I got them two years ago... where they now sit outside in a box.
[21:48:34] <norias> oh, ok
[21:48:36] <furrywolf> they're not running at all. I've never connected them.
[21:48:43] <norias> i'm not a huge battery expert
[21:48:49] <norias> but i've learned a couple things
[21:49:01] <norias> and, i dunno, if your lead acid is various ages
[21:49:15] <norias> the shit ones could be over stressing the decent ones
[21:49:20] <XXCoder> https://skagit.craigslist.org/tls/4805665823.html
[21:49:21] <norias> and taking them down the tubes with them
[21:49:26] <XXCoder> NEW one 35k
[21:49:31] <furrywolf> pete: I wouldn't pay 5/8ths retail for ANYTHING.
[21:49:32] <norias> i'd rather have less capacity with better batteries
[21:49:53] <furrywolf> that's not how it works... the shit ones over-stress themselves and self-destruct.
[21:49:57] <PetefromTn_> huh?
[21:50:06] <norias> how are they wired?
[21:50:32] <norias> oh, nm
[21:50:33] <furrywolf> pete: the box of tools... I wouldn't pay $500 for tools that cost $800, but are now used and lacking warranty, and may be damaged, out of calibration, etc.
[21:50:34] <norias> dumb question
[21:50:44] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: what ya think lol
[21:50:50] <PetefromTn_> oh yeah that what the joke...
[21:51:24] <norias> it's really from the mismatch
[21:51:32] <furrywolf> right now it's three L16s in series with 3 golf cart batteries in parallel... I swapped the mostly-toasted golf cart batteries in place of a L16 that failed. another L16 is in the process of failing.
[21:51:35] <norias> they're probably on the same charge controller
[21:51:44] <PetefromTn_> those do not look like top quality tools but I do see what looks like a Starrett box so who knows..
[21:51:50] <furrywolf> no, mismatch has nothing to do with it. I've had completely matched sets of batteries fail too. :P
[21:52:09] <norias> batteries always fail
[21:52:09] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder of what?
[21:52:14] <PetefromTn_> the router?
[21:52:18] <XXCoder> yeah lol
[21:52:33] <norias> it's just how many cycles to fail at what charge / discharge regime
[21:53:01] <furrywolf> is this aquion? I note a distinct lack of prices.
[21:53:03] <PetefromTn_> Looks pretty heavy duty for a CNC router.. nice Z height never run one like that tho so no idea..
[21:53:07] <norias> ha
[21:53:09] <norias> is aquion
[21:53:23] <norias> we only sell through like... one distributor right now
[21:53:33] <Jymmm> norias: Begin charge when battery is at 0.3V @ 200A ;)
[21:53:47] <norias> otherwise, we sell to systems integrators who do entire solar installs
[21:54:07] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: if I wanted to just start and has money I'd go for it
[21:54:09] <norias> Jymmm: sounds about right. That should last a while.
[21:54:15] <XXCoder> but its 34,000 more than I can afford LOL
[21:54:23] <Jymmm> norias: What regions are using batteries vs direct grid tie?
[21:54:25] <Jymmm> norias: =)
[21:54:34] <norias> good question
[21:54:34] <PetefromTn_> I guess it would depend on my needs and uses..
[21:54:41] <norias> you mean our batteries?
[21:54:56] <PetefromTn_> honestly while I would love a larger machine my little Cincinatti Arrow 500 has done well for me so far.
[21:55:02] <Jymmm> norias: I see a lot of solar installs in the SF Bay Area, but many are just grid tie
[21:55:09] <norias> we have some folks in northern california that replaced their generators
[21:55:13] <norias> with solar
[21:55:25] <norias> running power up the hill was too expensive, i guess
[21:55:27] <PetefromTn_> I kinda wish I had 30" X tho.. a 30x20 would be a great little starter machine..
[21:55:40] <norias> we have quite a few on islands in the pacific via...
[21:55:49] <norias> midnight solar? out of australia
[21:55:55] <Jymmm> norias: Typical capacity in generator replacement?
[21:55:58] <norias> they do that in places that just don't have grids
[21:56:10] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: what I would love is full 4'x8' router
[21:56:12] <norias> damn, how much money you got?
[21:56:15] <norias> :)
[21:56:16] <XXCoder> have fun with full ply sheets
[21:56:37] <norias> answers i honestly should have, but don't
[21:56:44] <PetefromTn_> you can build one pretty easily...
[21:56:52] <norias> i deal with the insides of the batteries
[21:57:06] <norias> well, and the cases
[21:57:12] <PetefromTn_> if I were to build a CNC router ( and I probably will at some point) it would be able to cut at LEAST 4x8
[21:57:16] <norias> i can find out, though
[21:57:17] <Jymmm> norias: No worries, I was more curious than anything else. I've been testing solar here for summer/winter cycles, etc
[21:57:23] <furrywolf> 30 to 60V? that's a pretty wide voltage swing. that'll make it hard to use with off-the-shelf equipment.
[21:57:28] <SpeedEvil> A 'jointer' might be nice too.
[21:57:33] <norias> our marketing / sales director guy
[21:57:40] <norias> is huge on the idea of grid defection
[21:57:43] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: issue is more my movation than anything really. well and money for such big screws
[21:57:59] <SpeedEvil> That is - you apply the end or side of a bit of wood up to say 6"6", and it makes a mortice, tenon or box joint at whatever angle and offsets you want.
[21:58:06] <norias> furrywolf: are we saying 30 to 60? I don't read the website
[21:58:07] <PetefromTn_> most larger format routers do not use screws
[21:58:12] <furrywolf> lol
[21:58:18] <Jymmm> norias: I've been trying to get thru the hype and get "real" numbers
[21:58:30] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: rails?
[21:58:36] <Jymmm> norias: so I can call em on their shit ;)
[21:58:37] <norias> i can get you real numbers for our stuff
[21:58:45] <norias> but most of our installs
[21:58:52] <norias> have either been pretty huge
[21:58:56] <norias> or rich people's houses
[21:58:56] <PetefromTn_> rack and pinion, belt drive, even chain drive on some
[21:59:04] <Jymmm> norias: define huge?
[21:59:09] <norias> small village
[21:59:15] <Jymmm> norias: 12KVA ?
[21:59:20] <Jymmm> battery banks
[21:59:20] <norias> could be
[21:59:30] <XXCoder> makes sense I guess. no need to push hard on screw on such massive machine gantry
[21:59:44] <SpeedEvil> I was looking into making my own batteries, but I couldn't work out how to get them to not explode :)
[21:59:45] <Jymmm> norias: Well, anytime you need a battery beta bitch, let me know ;)
[21:59:48] <furrywolf> your pdfs also lack of a lot of useful figures. from the "current vs discharge duration" graph, I get the feeling you have very high internal resistance?
[22:00:00] <norias> honestly, the infrastructure isn't there for normal homes yet
[22:00:04] <PetefromTn_> oh now that BIG ASS machine you just posted probably has screws but that is kind of a mill/router machine
[22:00:13] <norias> siemens is still playing with inverters, etc
[22:00:20] <norias> it's a brand new technology
[22:00:32] <norias> so, we got with some bigger installers
[22:00:39] <norias> made friends with siemens, etc
[22:00:43] <SpeedEvil> The cost of decent batteries is alas huge.
[22:00:54] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: yeah haas router at work has inch thick screws
[22:00:59] <SpeedEvil> As in - well over grid cost for capacity * cycles
[22:01:08] <norias> i can't even get them in my house yet
[22:01:12] <norias> working on it, though
[22:01:45] <norias> furrywolf: i think... they make the pdf's that way on purpose :)
[22:02:07] <norias> relatively speaking, yeah, high internal resistance
[22:02:18] <norias> i'm working on that
[22:02:28] <norias> a good bit of it is actually at the terminals
[22:02:34] <furrywolf> your peukert effect looks fucking horrible. heh. even at 0.2C they're down to half capacity...
[22:02:48] <norias> good battery terminals are a remarkably difficult engineering problem
[22:02:56] <norias> yeah, well
[22:02:59] <norias> water
[22:03:26] <furrywolf> compare this to, say, edison, who gave the stated capacity of his batteries AT 0.2C. heh.
[22:03:32] <norias> this is great, though
[22:03:43] <norias> i'm on the battery design team
[22:03:49] <norias> so, the feedback is really interesting
[22:04:00] <SpeedEvil> It depends where you are on solar.
[22:04:28] <PetefromTn_> well goodnight folks
[22:04:28] <SpeedEvil> If you're at 'I want to cycle the batteries 50% on a good day' - then .2C may bother you
[22:04:34] <norias> oh, with refference to the peukert, also
[22:04:38] <norias> that's old data
[22:04:41] <SpeedEvil> If you want independance for 3 days of poor weatehr, not so much
[22:05:08] <furrywolf> I don't think your batteries are suitable for many off-grid systems... from the specs you've published, which I assume are optimistic and for a brand new battery, they have absolutely no ability to supply surge loads... you'd have to greatly oversize the capacity to provide the required current for intermittant large loads. well pumps, etc, are a good example.
[22:05:32] <norias> totally agree
[22:05:37] <norias> based on published specs
[22:05:45] <norias> it sucks for quite a few use cases
[22:05:45] <SpeedEvil> norias: I missed the PDF - what battery tech?
[22:05:57] <furrywolf> or, to use my system... just running a few lights and the laptop, I pull about 5A. if I run the microwave while the dryer is running, it's over 200A. :)
[22:06:12] <norias> aquion energy
[22:06:16] <norias> no idea where the pdf is
[22:06:20] <norias> never look at the website
[22:06:31] <furrywolf> so what's a M100 run anyway? :P
[22:06:36] <norias> some background, i'm a machinist whole prototyped all the hard parts
[22:06:37] <SpeedEvil> Interesting
[22:06:42] <SpeedEvil> norias: :)
[22:06:43] <norias> and eventually got on to the engineering team
[22:06:59] <SpeedEvil> norias: I was looking at DIYing a large battery at home. Molten lithium salt though
[22:07:06] <SpeedEvil> Surprisingly possible.
[22:07:08] <norias> don't know anything about that
[22:07:12] <norias> scares the hell out of me
[22:07:21] * furrywolf wants to know what one costs
[22:07:23] <norias> furrywolf: hmm...
[22:07:34] <norias> m100 would be 12 stacks
[22:07:37] <SpeedEvil> Teeny annoying failure mode - if the metals mix (seperated by a liquid layer, and liquid metals) - they ahve enough energy to heat up to 2200C
[22:07:45] <norias> stacks are... i think around $1500 right now
[22:08:00] <norias> so, $18,000 plus some odds and ends
[22:08:11] <norias> (did i math that right?)
[22:08:13] <roycroft> so you can cook dinner on your battery, in about 3 ms
[22:08:53] <SpeedEvil> roycroft: :)
[22:08:58] <norias> furrywolf: economics on them sucks right now.
[22:09:05] <norias> let's be real
[22:09:14] <norias> it's called a minimum viable product for a reason
[22:09:25] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[22:09:32] <SpeedEvil> The economics of stuff varies wildly
[22:09:35] <XXCoder> lol http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Metal-Motorized-Mini-Lathe-Machine-Ship-from-USA/191089035551?_trksid=p2054897.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D98a1fb3c196c4c318fc527ca420d6b88%26pid%3D100204%26rk%3D12%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D321133076742
[22:09:39] <XXCoder> TINY
[22:09:41] <norias> they are great in africa
[22:09:44] <norias> or on an island
[22:09:48] <XXCoder> dilios for ants tiny
[22:09:49] <SpeedEvil> 'Grid competitive' doesn't so much matter if you have no grid
[22:09:50] <norias> where replacing batteries is a nightmare
[22:10:09] <norias> that said, at the individual battery level
[22:10:16] <furrywolf> so that's $20kish for 27kwh, or about $740 per kwh. I can get leadacid for $60/kwh retail at a local store, less if I order a pallet. that means they have you outlast leadacid by 12 times, and you have to live long enough and have the project long enough to do that. :)
[22:10:17] <norias> we have a bunch of room for optimisation
[22:10:23] <norias> oh shit
[22:10:24] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: I see you that, and raise you http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Lathe-mini-ManSon-restored-antique-micro-Monarch-10EE-jewelers-watch-/231414756807
[22:10:27] <norias> 740 kwh?
[22:10:36] <norias> hmm, that doesn't sound right
[22:10:41] <norias> maybe i have the wrong numbers
[22:10:47] <furrywolf> $740 per kwh.
[22:11:00] <norias> should be closer to $400
[22:11:02] <XXCoder> wow lol speed
[22:11:12] <furrywolf> that's still non-cheap.
[22:11:16] <norias> $60 / kwh?
[22:11:25] <norias> that's nutty
[22:11:29] <norias> really?
[22:11:36] <furrywolf> yep, that's the advantage of lead-acid... cheap.
[22:11:43] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: are these rated deep cycle batteries?
[22:11:57] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: can you explain this to me:
[22:11:58] <furrywolf> golf cart batteries are $83 each retail... I don't recall the prices on larger cells, but they're in the same $/kwh range.
[22:11:59] <zeeshan> http://ecmweb.com/basics/calculating-single-and-3-phase-parameters
[22:12:11] <zeeshan> why 3 phase calcualtions have 1.732 :P
[22:12:21] * zeeshan got reminded by kwh
[22:12:36] <norias> damnit
[22:12:45] <norias> i'm going to stop talking about the stuff i don't know well
[22:12:50] <furrywolf> Interstate wants ~$125/kwh for L16s, but they overcharge. :)
[22:12:54] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: sin(60 or something)
[22:13:03] <norias> ask me how much resistance is in the current collector!
[22:13:05] <norias> i know that!
[22:13:06] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: each phase is 120 degree offset
[22:13:15] <furrywolf> lol
[22:13:34] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: im still trying to understand the VFD issue.
[22:13:50] <zeeshan> yea if you have lets say 1000W available, it doesnt matter if its single or 3 phase.
[22:13:52] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: fundamentally, power into a VFD can be the same as power out.
[22:13:52] <zeeshan> power is power
[22:13:56] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: doing so costs.
[22:14:02] <zeeshan> but the thing is the currents are not the same.
[22:14:06] <furrywolf> do they need watering, or is your cell voltage (1.5V/cell?) low enough they don't gas much? platinum recombiner?
[22:14:15] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you don't care about the currents, you care about the developed watts.
[22:14:28] <norias> furrywoolf: no watering. sealed.
[22:14:33] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: 'real' watts
[22:14:38] <norias> yeah, cell voltage is... more like 1.3V
[22:14:47] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: but the thing is the current that is generating that watts
[22:14:48] <norias> they do gas some
[22:14:57] <zeeshan> is 360/2 apart (single phase)
[22:15:07] <zeeshan> and the current it needs to generate is 360/3 apart
[22:15:10] <norias> but the loss on it is pretty low
[22:15:15] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Current * voltage = volt-amps. Only in the case that volts and amps are in phase is this the same as real watts.
[22:15:32] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: real watts are what you actually care about when calculating maximum efficiency.
[22:15:35] <zeeshan> yea for purely resistive load
[22:15:52] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i'm not wondering about efficiency
[22:15:56] <zeeshan> im wondering how its physically possible
[22:16:11] <zeeshan> in a single phase circuit for a given 1/60 period
[22:16:13] <furrywolf> are they waterable? if they have loss, and no way to add water, they're going to fail if you run them hot...
[22:16:18] <zeeshan> you have a specific current wave, specific voltage wave
[22:16:29] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: how is it possible that the sum of two adjacent sides of a triangle is 2, whereas the diagonal is sqrt(2)?
[22:16:37] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's exactly the same problem
[22:16:40] <norias> furrywolf: that's a big debate right now. we really designed them for a 20 hour cycle
[22:16:41] <furrywolf> also, I love the wording "UL Recognition Targeted". aka "not approved, but we tried"? :P
[22:16:59] <norias> now, we're getting asked to do higher rates, so... a few parameters are changing
[22:17:15] <norias> i.e. other stuff should die before they need rewatered
[22:17:24] <SpeedEvil> 20 hour cycle - utility load leveling?
[22:17:26] <norias> oh, ul thing is
[22:17:38] <norias> basically, if you look at the UL categories
[22:17:41] <norias> we're a new one
[22:17:45] <SpeedEvil> norias: fun!
[22:17:49] <norias> we're working with UL on how to make that work
[22:17:59] <furrywolf> for my ni-fe, I started building a RO-DI system for my own water, as they use stupid amounts.
[22:18:21] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: im gonna post a plot cause im a visual person :/
[22:18:23] <norias> SpeedEvil: yeah
[22:18:36] <furrywolf> even just playing with some of my smaller cells, you can go through water at unbelievable speeds. I think they make just as effective of electrolysis cells as they do batteries.
[22:18:40] * SpeedEvil ponders posting plot.
[22:18:47] <norias> SpeedEvil: problem is, they want to buy in bigger lots than we can supply right now
[22:19:14] <SpeedEvil> yeah - utilities may actually be interested in buying a GWh
[22:19:21] <norias> so, we have to do a quicker charge / discharge that will get us in smaller unit markets
[22:19:41] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/NAIQEeR.png
[22:19:49] <zeeshan> top is the 3 phase, buttom 3 phase
[22:19:53] <SpeedEvil> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/phase.html#c2
[22:19:55] <zeeshan> bottom is single phase i mean
[22:20:13] <norias> SpeedEvil: yeah, well, they want a Gwh demo unit
[22:20:16] <norias> to look at
[22:20:18] <norias> and think about
[22:20:29] <norias> that's a lot of cash to put in to a demo unit
[22:20:30] <zeeshan> you basically have 1 voltage wave, that you need to generate 3 from.
[22:20:32] <norias> for a new compan
[22:20:33] <norias> y
[22:20:37] <zeeshan> i dunno i give up
[22:20:48] <zeeshan> :)
[22:21:34] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you need to integrate teh voltage and current multipled to get RMS watts out on each wave. This is real watts without any imaginary component. Now, simply sum the three phases. And compare to the input
[22:21:48] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Fundamentally - there are no losses inherent in the process.
[22:22:01] <SpeedEvil> Imagine you have 1kW input to the VFD, a motor, and then a generator
[22:22:16] <SpeedEvil> you must be able to connect a 1kW load to the generator - or there are losses somewhere
[22:22:31] <furrywolf> the biggest thing your batteries have doing for them is cycle life... but I don't see a cycle life vs dod vs temperature chart in the specs...
[22:23:03] <norias> you have all the good questions, furrywolf
[22:23:12] <norias> i'm going to get you pics of the lab
[22:23:13] <SpeedEvil> That was the nice thing I found about the lithium batteries.
[22:23:17] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: okay that makes sense
[22:23:18] <norias> since you seem so in to batteries
[22:23:19] <furrywolf> what kind of cell pressure are you running? the case design looks like it's scary.
[22:23:21] <SpeedEvil> All the compoennts are liquid.
[22:23:27] <zeeshan> what doesnt make sense is the ratings vfd manufacturers supply
[22:23:36] <zeeshan> they rate input current to 20A for example
[22:23:36] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Oh - sure it does.
[22:23:41] <norias> cell pressure is way high
[22:23:42] <zeeshan> and output current is 20/1.73
[22:23:45] <zeeshan> approx.
[22:23:55] <zeeshan> why the huge drop in current output
[22:24:02] <zeeshan> for the same voltage
[22:24:02] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's the difference between what is possible in theory, and what is possible cheaply
[22:24:04] <norias> we basically have huge ass springs compressiong everything
[22:24:12] <furrywolf> lol
[22:24:21] <furrywolf> getting it high enough for the h/o to recombine?
[22:24:23] <norias> we called the same people that make springs for trucks
[22:24:28] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: so you're saying theyre not using fancy capacitors that can keep up with the switching demand?
[22:24:28] <norias> no, actually
[22:24:30] <furrywolf> or is it some other operational requirement?
[22:24:33] <norias> to overcome contact resistance
[22:24:33] <SpeedEvil> I'm reminded of reading a recent report into the 787 battery fire.
[22:24:42] <furrywolf> hrmm...
[22:24:44] <norias> interfacial resistances
[22:24:49] <SpeedEvil> Battery contacts and internal pressure was a secondary issue
[22:25:07] <norias> i could see that
[22:25:15] <norias> it's also full of freaking lithium
[22:25:19] <norias> so
[22:25:28] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: its very odd that almost all vfd amnufacturers
[22:25:33] <SpeedEvil> they actually saw degraded overheating contacts on the top of the battery, but diddn't consider it a concern as it 'only' happened at 110% of nominal
[22:25:39] <zeeshan> outputs are off by a factor of 1.732
[22:25:39] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you need extra stages.
[22:25:52] <zeeshan> so they all pretty much use the same method to generate 3 phase
[22:26:09] <zeeshan> ive seen like maybe 50~ diff spec sheets
[22:26:13] <zeeshan> from diff companies, diff models
[22:26:15] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: To cope with non zero power factor, you need to not only be able to simply set the voltage - you also need to be able to redirect the current to one or other of teh rails.
[22:26:18] <norias> speedevil: degraded contacts only get worse, no?
[22:26:22] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: now - this is all quite possible.
[22:26:36] <SpeedEvil> norias: It was claimed that the degradation only ahppened outside service conditions
[22:26:58] <norias> eh
[22:27:14] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: the problem is that it adds effectively another power converter stage to the inverter, and adds maybe 5-10% on the price and the design effort
[22:27:22] <norias> that doesn't follow with what i understand
[22:27:33] <SpeedEvil> norias: the contact degradation was not the main issue
[22:27:41] <norias> no, i hear you
[22:27:51] <norias> what was the main issue, incidentally?
[22:27:59] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: makes sense
[22:28:05] <zeeshan> i think the key to understanding is
[22:28:10] <SpeedEvil> that was a side-issue found during investigation The main one was wrinkles during battery assembly, causing one third of a cell to go short circuit.
[22:28:11] <zeeshan> power doesnt change regardless of 3 phase or single
[22:28:18] <zeeshan> thats where i was going wrong
[22:28:25] <norias> ahhh
[22:28:43] <norias> short circuit -> thermal runaway?
[22:28:45] <SpeedEvil> That third of a cell then rapidly overheated, taking out the other three. And 'vent with flame' wasn't adequately coped with in the specs, and the one cell cooked off the rest
[22:29:30] <norias> some of the folks i work with have done lithium ion
[22:29:35] <norias> say it's a nightmare
[22:29:41] <norias> from a qc perspective
[22:30:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AIR1401.pdf - fascinating
[22:30:19] <zeeshan> does total power remaind constant in single phase?
[22:30:21] <norias> i will read
[22:30:36] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Sort-of, power factor hits there too.
[22:30:43] <zeeshan> well thats the thing i keep reading
[22:30:47] <zeeshan> that in 3 phase it is
[22:30:53] <zeeshan> but apparently in single phase it isnt
[22:30:55] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's the reason inverters 'volt amp' figures make a difference rather than watts
[22:31:00] <zeeshan> but i cant find references to math
[22:31:13] <furrywolf> your website's video makes your production plant look way too shiny for a battery plant.
[22:31:30] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: you've been looking at pictures of Edisons plant though.
[22:31:41] <SpeedEvil> Full of 12 year-old american lads with no shoes and a pipe.
[22:31:47] <furrywolf> lol
[22:31:52] <norias> lol
[22:31:56] <norias> it's brand new
[22:32:29] <zeeshan> do you know the pf of a typical single phase motor
[22:32:31] <zeeshan> vs 3 phase
[22:32:36] <zeeshan> its like .9 vs 1?
[22:32:49] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it varies depending on load and the design of the motor
[22:32:50] <zeeshan> at full load
[22:32:51] <furrywolf> so why do they cost so much, anyway? your raw materials are cheap, your cases plastic, and your factory highly automated...
[22:32:56] <zeeshan> yea i know :P
[22:32:57] <zeeshan> haha
[22:33:02] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Factories are expensive
[22:33:09] <zeeshan> im just trying to get an idea of something with no fancy capacitors added
[22:33:11] <XXCoder> its people
[22:33:15] <XXCoder> its made from people!
[22:33:15] <zeeshan> and wound the same way
[22:33:30] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: there are 'no' single phase motors
[22:33:43] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: single phase induction motors are actuall two-phase cap motors
[22:33:55] <zeeshan> yea if it was single
[22:33:56] <zeeshan> it wouldnt spin.
[22:33:57] <norias> furrywolf: oh gosh. you really want to talk about cost?
[22:34:02] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: single phase 'universal' motors aren't really - because they'd run just fine on DC
[22:34:08] <norias> i'm working on that right now
[22:34:48] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor 'The power factor of induction motors varies with load, typically from around 0.85 or 0.90 at full load to as low as 0.35 at no-load
[22:34:58] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: thank you for clarifying this stuff
[22:35:01] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: np
[22:35:02] <furrywolf> at least you're cheaper than iron edison... they want $5000 for a 48V 100Ah pack. heh.
[22:35:20] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: now find me a 1hp 110vac motor!
[22:35:23] <zeeshan> vfd
[22:35:24] <zeeshan> :D
[22:35:34] <norias> our price will come down over time
[22:35:39] <norias> we're at one line right now
[22:35:45] <norias> we break even at like 3
[22:35:52] <norias> shits capital intensive
[22:35:55] <SpeedEvil> norias: gigafactory an issue you're thinking of?
[22:36:09] <SpeedEvil> Musk is doing some _scary_ shit.
[22:36:19] * zeeshan needs to stick to mechanical eng
[22:36:20] <SpeedEvil> (for entrenched vendors)
[22:36:23] <norias> it's interesting
[22:36:23] <zeeshan> damn EE schools me
[22:36:35] <furrywolf> last I heard, he was planning on flooding the market with cheap lifepo4.
[22:36:50] <norias> yeah, well
[22:36:54] <norias> elon is smart
[22:36:57] <SpeedEvil> In that he's ~halved the cost of rocketry. And this year comes another ~halving. And that's before reusability of rockets kicks in propelry.
[22:37:10] <norias> but build a battery factory is just dirty, hard, shitty drudgery
[22:37:17] <SpeedEvil> And he's just announced that he's going into satellite production.
[22:37:23] <norias> and honestly
[22:37:30] <norias> there are only so many people he can hire
[22:37:38] <SpeedEvil> True.
[22:37:39] <norias> people go to school wanting to design rockets
[22:37:45] <furrywolf> of course, I would like to point out, even changhong, the primary chinese ni-fe supplier, publishes pdfs with about twenty times the details of your pdfs. :P
[22:37:49] <norias> people don't do that with batteries
[22:38:09] <norias> furrywolf: well... dang
[22:38:13] <norias> i don't write the pdf's
[22:38:33] <furrywolf> marketing people write the pdfs, from what I can guess reading them. :)
[22:38:40] <norias> yes, actually
[22:38:47] <norias> they believe whatever we tell them :)
[22:38:58] <norias> and write what they think they understand
[22:39:07] <norias> i don't ever see that stuff
[22:39:15] <norias> i could, i just don't look
[22:39:28] <SpeedEvil> The chinese market is interesting in many ways.
[22:39:36] <SpeedEvil> 'internal' documentation gets sprayed _everywhere_
[22:39:36] <norias> i make the little parts better, cheaper, etc
[22:39:55] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
[22:39:57] <norias> i'm the guy that deals with the injection molding companies, etc
[22:40:20] <SpeedEvil> Injection moulding? Bah - buy a 3d printer!
[22:40:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:40:33] <norias> lol
[22:40:35] <norias> we have a couple
[22:40:38] <SpeedEvil> There are some really cool ones - some can do inconel.
[22:40:47] <norias> we don't have that budget
[22:40:50] <SpeedEvil> (the process then is quite warm)
[22:40:52] <furrywolf> well, other than a few issues, they sound like a good product... but you don't have any graphs or details to qualify the marketing claims, which always make me very, very suspicious. what's the cycle life go down to when hot? etc.
[22:41:01] <SpeedEvil> yes - if you made inconel battery cases, people would look at you funny.
[22:41:13] <norias> furrywolf: fair points.
[22:41:24] <norias> it's... hard to market the graphs
[22:41:27] <norias> i think
[22:41:34] <norias> because it's rapidly evolving
[22:41:41] <SpeedEvil> These are all reasonable points if your customer is the CEO. And the next step is 'have your people talk to my people'
[22:41:51] <norias> right
[22:42:01] <SpeedEvil> It's less reasonable if it's individuals or small companies wanting to perhaps buy a pallet.
[22:42:08] <furrywolf> speedevil: edison's nickel plated steel cases with gas-welded seams are a work of art, imho.
[22:42:10] <norias> that's not happening much right now
[22:42:16] <norias> the batteries we are making
[22:42:18] <norias> right now
[22:42:27] <norias> are way better than the ones marketing used for their data
[22:42:42] <norias> they are constantly evolving, it's not a fixed product yet
[22:42:49] <SpeedEvil> Great!
[22:42:54] <norias> we're marketing... s10, right?
[22:43:02] <norias> or are those data sheets for s20?
[22:43:03] <SpeedEvil> As long as you're understanding why they're better.
[22:43:05] <norias> er, b10
[22:43:07] <furrywolf> I know! why don't you send me a M100, and I'll give it a real-world test in a solar system. :P
[22:43:11] <norias> :)
[22:43:19] <furrywolf> S20
[22:43:22] <norias> i'm trying to get an m100 in my house
[22:43:23] <norias> oh, ok
[22:43:38] <norias> s20 will effectively have a market life of... 3 months?
[22:43:46] <norias> i'm wrapping up details on s30 now
[22:43:49] <furrywolf> lol
[22:44:02] <norias> now, after s30, it slows down
[22:44:07] <norias> changes get more costly
[22:44:28] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: by 3D printer you mean cnc glue gun or actual additive manufacturing equipment?
[22:44:47] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: 'CNC glue gun' is a perjorative term.
[22:45:13] <CaptHindsight> filament fetish, sounds more derogatory
[22:45:21] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: It is a tool. Just like a hammer, a file, or a 6 axis machining center that can do 10m props.
[22:45:27] <CaptHindsight> yet I still hear the wooosh
[22:45:44] <norias> furrywolf: some of the changes from s20 to s30 are like...
[22:45:52] <CaptHindsight> you mean it won't save the world?
[22:45:58] <SpeedEvil> For example - even with 'glue' - lost glue casting is interesting
[22:46:02] <norias> "Hey, we can get current collectors double the thickness for not double the cost..."
[22:46:07] <norias> "Nuh uh."
[22:46:19] <SpeedEvil> norias: pricing of stock is funny.
[22:46:22] <norias> "Yeah, huh. Makes the battery better, too."
[22:46:33] <furrywolf> tell the marketing people to stop using the term "salt electrolyte". unless it uses NaCL, that's just misleading, because nicd etc are all salt electrolytes too...
[22:46:35] <SpeedEvil> As is working out just how to make stuff with the least wate.
[22:46:53] <CaptHindsight> you mean salts vs NaCl?
[22:47:07] <SpeedEvil> NaCl is a salt - it's not the only salt.
[22:47:16] <norias> who says we aren't using nacl?
[22:47:18] <SpeedEvil> Also - aren't NiCd KaOh?
[22:47:28] <SpeedEvil> that'snot typically thought of as a salt. But an alkaline
[22:47:29] <furrywolf> "a unique saltwater electrolyte battery technology" may be technically correct, but terms like "saltwater" are misleading. my KOH batteries are saltwater too by that definition...
[22:47:31] <CaptHindsight> there ya go gettin all upidty with the science stuff
[22:47:40] <norias> yeah, yeah
[22:47:41] <SpeedEvil> Ah - yeah. 'saltwater' is wrong.
[22:47:47] <SpeedEvil> 'salt water' ok
[22:47:56] <norias> ahh, i see what you mean
[22:48:05] <norias> i'll mention that
[22:48:06] <SpeedEvil> but that's only something a chemist would actually care about.
[22:48:07] <norias> wish me luck
[22:48:08] <CaptHindsight> vs saline?
[22:48:38] <SpeedEvil> The important bit is actual life graphs - as much as possible - over temperature and DOD
[22:50:13] <norias> yeah
[22:50:20] <furrywolf> and any efforts to improve the discharge rate... selling a 250lb battery with an inline 15A fuse is just pathetic. :)
[22:50:28] <norias> ha!
[22:51:00] <furrywolf> I have bigger connectors on my solar panels than you have on the batteries... and my batteries are all 5/16 studs and 4/0 wire. :P
[22:51:24] <norias> who's cost targets did you have to work to? :)
[22:51:41] <norias> oh, wait, didn't you say the batteries are too expensive?
[22:51:47] <furrywolf> lol
[22:51:59] <furrywolf> too expensive AND incapable of running many loads is a bad combination. :)
[22:52:22] <furrywolf> for most off-grid systems, they'd need to be greatly oversized to be able to supply peak loads...
[22:52:41] <norias> peak, what 2A?
[22:52:50] <furrywolf> I have my batteries fused at 250A not 15A... and I think I could blow that fuse if I tried.
[22:53:07] <norias> 15A per 8 batteries
[22:53:14] <SpeedEvil> If they were cheap enough though - a LiFePO4 bank to last for peak loads would help lots
[22:53:16] <norias> 2A per bat
[22:53:24] <norias> so, it's sized about right
[22:53:25] <Jymmm> _methods: Looky wat I found... http://search.ebay.com/351278658010
[22:54:04] <furrywolf> you might consider marketing them combined with an ultracapacitor bank for peak/startup loads.
[22:54:15] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: I consider that to be really unlikely
[22:54:30] <furrywolf> you might even be able to make the capacitors... your cells sound a little like ELDCs to me...
[22:54:34] <norias> furrywolf: I mentioned that. not our market.
[22:54:41] <norias> if upstream wants to do it, so be it
[22:54:49] <norias> we decided we're just a battery company
[22:54:58] <furrywolf> heh, so you already thought of this. :P
[22:55:01] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: if you have the KV meter, bring it on =)
[22:55:02] <norias> just these batteries
[22:55:24] <SpeedEvil> norias: do you do free shipping to scotland? :)
[22:55:31] <norias> doubtful
[22:55:40] <norias> well, how many modules do you want?
[22:55:55] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: maybe those cheap stun guns?
[22:56:32] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: ah yeah. 'discharging distance' - 1-2cm.
[22:56:39] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: 40kV - OK - that's reasonable
[22:56:45] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: =)
[22:56:46] <SpeedEvil> 400KV - no way
[22:56:58] <furrywolf> I want however many you'll ship me for testing. :P
[22:57:02] <CaptHindsight> 400KV at 10MHz
[22:57:34] <norias> furrywolf: just depends on how many you buy :)
[22:58:27] <furrywolf> ...buy? :)
[22:58:49] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: those are Chinese volts
[22:59:39] <furrywolf> does your sodium sulfate precipitate out in cold temperatures?
[22:59:41] <SpeedEvil> I actually have a 200KV/1kW power supply as one of my stack of projects.
[23:00:07] <SpeedEvil> Using a microwave oven 'inverter' power supplyt.
[23:00:12] <CaptHindsight> well it might be a 133,333:1 step up transformer
[23:00:15] <unfy> don't become part of some sci fi "melding of man and machine" :P
[23:00:24] <norias> i saw some crap about
[23:00:30] <norias> using microwave ovens
[23:00:34] <norias> to sinter metals
[23:00:37] <SpeedEvil> yea
[23:00:37] <unfy> microwave transformers are scary beasts.
[23:00:39] <norias> i.e. powdered metals
[23:01:00] <SpeedEvil> norias: there is a limited range of conductivities alas
[23:01:09] <SpeedEvil> the most fun application I saw was to make nanotubes.
[23:01:11] <SpeedEvil> Process:
[23:01:12] <unfy> and do becareful with the microwave generator itself. the ceramic material is toxic (ie: don't go breaking it)
[23:01:21] <SpeedEvil> Take carbon fibre. Rinse off with acetone, dry.
[23:01:28] <SpeedEvil> Dip in ferrocene, dry.
[23:01:36] <SpeedEvil> microwave for 45 seconds
[23:01:53] <SpeedEvil> This 'functionalises' the CF with little sticky-out nanotubes
[23:01:54] <CaptHindsight> do the metal particles a) absorb the microwave energy or b) does the friction from the particles oscillating generate the heat?
[23:02:23] <SpeedEvil> Broadly speaking - all heating in a microwave oven is not due to resonant effects
[23:02:36] <SpeedEvil> it's soley due to large electrical currents flowing in the material
[23:02:45] <CaptHindsight> what resonance?
[23:03:02] <CaptHindsight> the materials (hardly) the what?
[23:03:05] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: it's a common misconception that water resonates in a microwave
[23:03:24] <SpeedEvil> I thought that was what you were referring to
[23:03:25] <CaptHindsight> well there are far too many 20 something on IRC
[23:04:05] <CaptHindsight> you don't often realize you don't know anything until 30 or 40
[23:04:12] <SpeedEvil> yup
[23:06:33] * furrywolf double-checks the soluability of na2so4 in water, and suspects these batteries are for temperate climates only!
[23:12:24] * furrywolf tries to figure out what "synthetic cotton" is, and why they show a picture of a cotton plant...
[23:14:50] <SpeedEvil> GM
[23:15:45] <norias> where's that from, furrywolf?
[23:16:34] <furrywolf> all over the place
[23:16:39] <norias> ok
[23:17:01] <norias> we put some of the real early ones outside
[23:17:04] <norias> during the winter
[23:17:12] <norias> just to see what'd happen
[23:17:18] <norias> electrolyte froze
[23:17:30] <norias> then we cut one open on the bandsaw
[23:17:44] <norias> looked pretty neat
[23:17:51] <furrywolf> neat != good. :P
[23:17:59] <norias> then someone decided to duct tape the two halves together
[23:18:04] <norias> and but it on test
[23:18:08] <norias> put
[23:18:16] <norias> apparently it worked for a while
[23:18:57] <furrywolf> fortunately that's probably something that could be cured with an additive... something to lower the freezing point without altering cell chemistry...
[23:19:21] <norias> yeah
[23:19:31] <norias> that was like... 3 years ago
[23:19:45] <furrywolf> because a battery you can't use in half the country limits your market a bit.
[23:20:06] <norias> put it inside
[23:20:13] <norias> dogs and batteries
[23:20:14] <norias> inside
[23:20:40] <norias> it's not going to explode
[23:20:41] <furrywolf> lol
[23:21:06] <furrywolf> yeah, it does sound like it emits a bit fewer corrosive fumes than lead-acid...
[23:21:29] <furrywolf> although... does electrolysis of sodium sulfate produce sulfuric acid? my chemistry is too rusty to remember.
[23:22:06] <norias> doutbful
[23:22:10] <norias> also, not a chemist
[23:22:21] <norias> however, have taken these batteries apart
[23:22:24] <norias> numerous times
[23:22:42] <norias> and didn't have to take any real safety precautions
[23:23:01] <furrywolf> yeah, sodium sulfate is pretty nontoxic. which is a definite plus.
[23:23:25] <SpeedEvil> I should check out the patents I guess
[23:23:28] <norias> oh snap
[23:23:31] <norias> there is a video
[23:23:47] <furrywolf> the one that makes your factory look way too shiny?
[23:24:26] <norias> no, it actually does look like that
[23:24:49] <norias> they aren't showing powders processing
[23:25:25] <norias> oh! scott is on the internets!
[23:25:41] <norias> based on this video
[23:25:46] <norias> three people make all the stuff
[23:25:54] <roycroft> scotty was just on sttng
[23:26:31] <norias> wow, that's crazy
[23:27:27] <norias> we have a website with videos and such
[23:28:32] <furrywolf> I like how the "why they're better than lead-acid" page repeatedly points out that lead-acid loses half their life at 10C hotter... while very carefully giving no specs whatsoever on your own batteries.
[23:28:38] <furrywolf> lol
[23:28:47] <furrywolf> you didn't know this? :)
[23:28:55] <norias> uh
[23:29:02] <norias> it's just crazy
[23:29:19] <norias> i was like, employee #15
[23:29:35] <norias> there was ... nothing
[23:29:41] <norias> well, some offices
[23:29:42] <norias> and a lab
[23:29:48] <norias> and i built the machine shop
[23:30:05] <norias> now there's a factory, on a video, on a website
[23:30:07] <norias> nuts
[23:30:28] <norias> oh, you're worried about 10C hotter?
[23:31:04] <furrywolf> no, I'm amused that you point out deficiencies with other batteries while carefully avoiding give any details about yours at all for comparrison.
[23:31:17] <norias> yeah
[23:31:21] <norias> well, S20
[23:31:33] <norias> i dig what you're saying on that
[23:31:41] <norias> but at the same time
[23:31:49] <norias> why write all this stuff up now
[23:31:58] <norias> when we're just about to iterate the thing
[23:32:02] <norias> to something better
[23:32:09] <norias> but we cant publish the better specs now
[23:32:10] <furrywolf> because people who might send you money are smart enough not to take marketing fluff at face value.
[23:32:15] <norias> because we're not selling that
[23:32:29] <norias> you also won't send money without talking to a sales engineer
[23:32:39] <norias> who will give you ever data sheet you want
[23:33:06] <norias> eventually, if you are a "qualified buyer"
[23:33:14] <furrywolf> lol
[23:33:15] <norias> i.e. you actually can afford this stuff
[23:33:31] <norias> and you ask the sales guy something he doesn't know
[23:33:38] <norias> he says, "I dunno, but I know who does."
[23:33:47] <norias> Then a guy named Eric Weber emails you.
[23:33:54] <norias> and just tells you all the stuff you want to know
[23:34:03] <norias> which is good
[23:34:11] <norias> you want to deal with an eric weber
[23:34:16] <norias> he's fucking smart
[23:34:25] <furrywolf> heh
[23:34:55] <norias> it's a company full of really smart people
[23:34:57] <norias> and everyone says
[23:35:05] <SpeedEvil> Depends on how retail you want to get I guess.
[23:35:07] <norias> "Eric Weber? He's really smart."
[23:35:12] <norias> We don't.
[23:35:20] <norias> We want someone else to retail it
[23:35:24] <norias> as a part of their package
[23:35:29] <furrywolf> the idea sounds like it has potential, but actual real-world test results are always the final answer...
[23:35:45] <norias> hah
[23:35:46] <norias> potential
[23:35:47] <furrywolf> give iron edison a call. they like selling alternative batteries
[23:36:23] <SpeedEvil> ion also sounds like iron
[23:36:37] <furrywolf> they have something like four different product lines right now... chinese nife, usa nifi, lifepo4, and something I don't remember... or maybe they only have three.
[23:36:44] <norias> idea has potential
[23:36:47] <furrywolf> s/nifi/nife
[23:36:50] <norias> it's at a high state of charge
[23:37:02] <SpeedEvil> norias: sounds like a very fun place to work.
[23:37:16] <norias> yeah, it's been a good ride
[23:37:57] <SpeedEvil> Probably not going for the EV market. Well - unless it's long-haul trains. :)
[23:38:09] <norias> yeah, ev...
[23:38:11] <norias> not our thing
[23:38:19] <norias> wee bit... heavy... for that
[23:38:29] <SpeedEvil> http://ironedison.com/iron-edison-usa-series-nickel-iron-nife-battery Oh right - neat
[23:38:33] <SpeedEvil> made in USA
[23:39:51] <furrywolf> I'm guessing if you use thinner plates in a greater number, you end up with better 5-hour rates, but worse cycle life?
[23:40:30] <norias> not necessarily
[23:40:49] <norias> cycle life has a few different... failure modes
[23:40:59] <norias> depends on which one wins
[23:41:15] <furrywolf> now this part sounds interesting. :)
[23:41:18] <norias> and also what cycle life you really need
[23:41:24] <furrywolf> forever!
[23:41:30] <norias> yeah, so...
[23:42:05] <norias> thinner also make a more expensive battery
[23:42:40] <norias> active material to everything else ratio
[23:43:46] <norias> current collectors in lead acid are interesting
[23:44:42] <SpeedEvil> carbon fibre additives?
[23:44:54] <norias> what?
[23:45:00] <furrywolf> my favorite is still original Edison batteries. you could individually unscrew each plate. :)
[23:45:10] <SpeedEvil> never mind - I thought you were referring to CF additives in the lead acid matrix
[23:45:19] <SpeedEvil> lead
[23:45:33] <SpeedEvil> it helps keep the battery connected even in the face of extreme sulphation
[23:45:33] <norias> i just meant the shape
[23:45:40] <norias> some of the cost effort there
[23:45:43] <SpeedEvil> ah
[23:46:05] <norias> take out the material that doesn't effect bulk resistance
[23:46:08] <furrywolf> norias: if you want to see beautiful engineering, take apart an Edison battery.
[23:46:24] <norias> you want to see beautiful engineering
[23:46:29] <norias> take apart and aquion battery
[23:46:33] <norias> squint your eyes
[23:46:40] <norias> and only look at the parts i worked on
[23:46:45] <furrywolf> lol
[23:46:48] <norias> :P
[23:48:00] <furrywolf> http://jamesdjulia.com/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/146/images/org/1740.jpg google to the rescue!
[23:55:34] <norias> http://www.altestore.com/store/Deep-Cycle-Batteries/Batteries-Saltwater-Technology/c1260/
[23:57:23] <furrywolf> "worlds first green battery" ... nickel-iron is plenty green.