#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-01-11

[01:44:00] <norias> hi
[01:44:15] <XXCoder> hey
[01:44:30] <norias> how's it going?
[01:45:21] <XXCoder> not much
[01:45:25] <XXCoder> http://makezine.com/2015/01/06/formlabs-releases-draft-mode-and-smart-supports/ wow though
[01:46:32] <norias> heh
[01:47:01] <XXCoder> oh you got any health potions? im low on hearts LOL
[01:47:05] <XXCoder> being sick sucks
[01:47:12] <norias> sorry
[01:47:18] <norias> no potions
[01:47:38] <norias> hmm
[01:47:48] <norias> i think i know the guy that wrote the article you linked to
[01:48:01] <XXCoder> the weird smile guy?
[01:48:08] <norias> yeah
[01:48:13] <norias> looks familiar
[01:48:22] <norias> then i noticed he goes to hackpittsburgh
[01:48:26] <norias> which i haven't been to
[01:48:43] <norias> but i've been to a bunch of different maker events in pittsburgh
[01:49:22] <norias> i never liked their kinda communist looking icon
[01:49:35] <XXCoder> meh
[01:50:07] <norias> what's the deal with grbl?
[01:50:56] <XXCoder> dunno what grbl is
[01:51:18] <norias> oh, fair
[01:51:30] <norias> apparently g-code interpretation for..
[01:51:36] <norias> atmega chops
[01:51:45] <norias> chips
[01:52:22] <norias> i.e. arduino
[01:53:00] <norias> hmm
[01:53:08] <norias> looks like it's really for controlling steppers
[01:53:15] <XXCoder> interesting
[01:53:23] <norias> although, i bet some parts of the code would be useful for not-steppers
[01:54:15] <norias> MIT licensed
[01:57:20] <XXCoder> cool
[01:58:07] <norias> yeah
[01:58:17] <norias> i think becoming familiar with the code
[01:58:40] <norias> would support my goal of designing / making some hardware for controllers
[01:58:54] <norias> and generally knowing way more about what cnc controllers do with my g-code
[01:59:58] <norias> anyhoo
[02:00:01] <norias> time to sleeo
[02:00:09] <XXCoder> night
[02:38:36] <Deejay> moin
[03:21:06] <Jymmm> alex_jon1: When you made you're netradio, what did you use for the encoder, an ardunio?
[03:21:31] <Jymmm> alex_jon1: to interfacce with the optical encoder that is
[09:59:41] <JT-Shop> oh I probably need to figure out cron and zsync
[10:01:47] <JT-Shop> well maybe not cron that is for doing something a lot
[10:16:42] <JT-Shop> uget seems to fit the bill
[10:40:04] <Tom_L> JT-Shop, all 3 md5sums match their target iso files
[10:40:56] <Tom_L> 2.5 & 2.6 on the main page and 2.7 on the Getting started page
[10:49:17] <tjtr33> the app 'alarm clock' can run a script at a time & date, repeatedly or 1 off. simple tiny gui. the script is up to you.
[10:51:08] <tjtr33> alarm-clock in synaptic
[10:51:30] <norias> hmm
[10:51:37] <norias> cnc record making machine?
[10:51:47] <JT-Shop> I found uget and you can schedule a download for the "free" times
[10:52:11] * JT-Shop just screwed up the tool offsets on the lathe again
[10:52:21] <Tom_L> 2.7 won't fit on a cd now though
[10:52:28] <JT-Shop> dvd
[10:52:31] <Tom_L> yes
[10:57:45] <pcw_home> usb stick
[10:58:54] <archivist> norias, should be simple as it has two main axes and a cutter
[10:59:10] <norias> yeah, seems like it
[10:59:57] <norias> cutting a record and all
[11:01:07] <norias> well, now i want to play guitar
[11:03:28] * JT-Shop thinks a nap is in order now that the offsets are hosed on the lathe again
[11:47:58] <norias> no doors or drawers policy
[11:47:59] <norias> hmm
[11:48:01] <norias> like the idea
[11:49:02] * zeeshan is getting excited
[11:49:11] <zeeshan> today wiring will be done
[11:49:12] <zeeshan> for cnc
[11:49:13] <norias> whatcha excited about?
[11:49:14] <zeeshan> finally TESTING
[11:49:14] <norias> oh
[11:49:17] <norias> nice
[11:49:56] <zeeshan> does anyone know if you can still use a reduced size ground wire
[11:50:06] <zeeshan> if something is hooked up to a 100A breaker
[11:50:11] <zeeshan> i know for a subpanel, you can
[11:50:41] <Tom_itx> i did
[11:50:48] <Tom_itx> on a sub pannel
[11:50:57] <zeeshan> 250.122 says:
[11:51:06] <Tom_itx> frame, not neutral
[11:51:15] <zeeshan> 70-100 awg "minimum size equipment grounding conductor"
[11:51:18] <zeeshan> 8awg
[11:51:35] <zeeshan> awg = amp. 70-100amp
[11:51:43] <zeeshan> yea neutral has to be full sized
[11:52:12] <Tom_itx> they are generally tied together at the pannel anyway
[11:52:30] <zeeshan> at the main panel yea
[11:52:51] <zeeshan> well it makes no sense to me to run anything larger than 6 awg
[11:52:56] <zeeshan> because for sub they say 6awg..
[11:53:11] <zeeshan> i wish i could find a damn 80 amp breaker
[11:53:14] <zeeshan> but its impossible to find.
[11:53:38] <Tom_itx> go to an electrical supply
[11:53:42] <zeeshan> i did
[11:53:49] <zeeshan> to 3 diff authorized distributors
[11:53:54] <zeeshan> they go right from 60 amp
[11:53:59] <zeeshan> to 100 amp. one had 70
[11:54:06] <zeeshan> theyd idnt know that 80 amp breakers existed lol
[11:54:09] <zeeshan> i had to give them the part number
[11:54:20] <Tom_itx> what brand pannel?
[11:54:27] <zeeshan> siemens eql8100d
[11:54:30] <zeeshan> why do i have this memorized
[11:57:15] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16251091345/
[11:57:21] <zeeshan> i cant even find a lug for the neutral
[11:57:31] <zeeshan> that lets me put a bigger wire through
[11:57:38] <zeeshan> home depot doesnt have it
[11:58:00] <Tom_itx> no appliance uses 80A
[11:58:04] <zeeshan> yea haha
[11:58:18] <zeeshan> even 4 awg is an uncommon size for supply houses to cary
[11:58:21] <zeeshan> they go from 6awg to 3
[11:59:18] <zeeshan> i just dont wanna have to wire twice
[11:59:21] <zeeshan> i had a 100 amp breaker
[11:59:28] <zeeshan> so i figure ill run 3awg wire since i already have it
[11:59:44] <zeeshan> its just that it wont fit inthe lug :)
[11:59:50] <zeeshan> for neutral
[11:59:50] <Tom_itx> drill it out
[11:59:53] <Tom_itx> :D
[11:59:55] <zeeshan> haha
[12:00:05] <zeeshan> i know they make a replacement lug
[12:00:13] <zeeshan> homedepot says they dont carry it anymore
[12:00:29] <Tom_itx> they don't carry much of anything anymore
[12:00:43] <Tom_itx> of the 'useful' stuff
[12:01:17] <norias> heh
[12:01:23] <norias> i see that as a...
[12:01:25] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-ECLK2-4-2-Neutral-Lug/dp/B004H61F2K
[12:01:26] <norias> hmm
[12:01:26] <zeeshan> this is it
[12:01:37] <norias> reaction to the dumbing down of society
[12:01:53] <zeeshan> OMHG
[12:01:54] <norias> people don't buy that sort of stuff
[12:01:57] <zeeshan> i HAVE an extra pone
[12:02:00] <zeeshan> on my other sub panel!
[12:02:05] <norias> so, home depot doesn't stock it
[12:02:33] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, a guy with a good cnc could make one
[12:02:44] <zeeshan> haha Tom_itx
[12:02:52] <zeeshan> SOON!!
[12:04:21] <zeeshan> panel off time
[12:09:15] <norias> hmm
[12:35:32] <zeeshan> yay
[12:35:35] <zeeshan> lug stolen
[12:36:12] <furrywolf> ?
[12:36:22] <zeeshan> i needed a neutral lug
[12:36:26] <zeeshan> so i stole it from my main panel
[12:36:29] <zeeshan> it wasnt being used :)
[12:36:53] <furrywolf> ah
[12:37:02] <furrywolf> and here I was thinking you interrupted someone taking the wheels off your car.
[12:37:14] <zeeshan> lol
[12:39:29] <furrywolf> brb, off to storage to fetch a usb hub and take pulley measurements on my mill
[13:11:36] <zeeshan> i think instead of running flex conduit
[13:11:39] <zeeshan> from sub panel to cnc..
[13:11:43] <zeeshan> ill just buy some tek cable.
[13:31:48] <zeeshan> does anyone know if soow cable for a permanent installation
[13:31:51] <zeeshan> is a violation of code
[13:39:24] <XXCoder> soow?
[13:44:41] <JT-Shop> snow?
[13:47:22] <zeeshan> http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/006ecmCBfig2x.jpg
[13:47:27] <zeeshan> this is what worries me :P
[13:48:03] <XXCoder> don't do third one and you'll be fine heh
[13:48:30] <zeeshan> yea but i dont know where the heck you'd fine a 100A receptacle.
[13:48:30] <zeeshan> lol
[13:48:38] <zeeshan> or even 80
[13:48:51] <XXCoder> just write a fine you'll do just fine ;)
[13:50:05] <zeeshan> http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=27909
[13:50:07] <LeelooMinai> OK, ##electronics failed again
[13:50:08] <zeeshan> wow
[13:50:23] <ReadError> lol ##electronics is such a joke
[13:50:29] <LeelooMinai> I will try this here then:)
[13:50:31] <LeelooMinai> Any ideas why 110V VFD(single phase) to 220V 3 phase drives end up being rated only for 750watt, though the input side has 1600watt potential? I know about current problems, etc., but in theory, since there's a DC bank in between both side, shouldn't it be possible to match more or less both sides as to the power?
[13:50:54] <zeeshan> i already answered this
[13:50:54] <zeeshan> lol
[13:50:59] <zeeshan> but you dont believe me
[13:51:05] <zeeshan> you have an oscilloscope , hook up your vfd
[13:51:08] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: No, you think you fif:)
[13:51:09] <zeeshan> and measure the current
[13:51:13] <zeeshan> i told you!
[13:51:28] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: I know the theory, etc., but the above is still valid.
[13:51:42] <zeeshan> its not about the power.
[13:51:51] <zeeshan> its about 3 phase current vs single
[13:52:20] <pcw_home> Its about ripple current on the filter capacitor
[13:52:37] <LeelooMinai> But I am not asking about problems normal VFDs here, just why they cannot solve them.
[13:52:41] <LeelooMinai> here=have
[13:52:42] <SpeedEvil> Ripple current can be arbitrarily small
[13:52:50] <SpeedEvil> all you need is a PFC stage first
[13:52:53] <SpeedEvil> this costs some $
[13:53:08] <pcw_home> ummm no...
[13:53:11] <zeeshan> 1 hp motor , 3 phase (750watt) , draws 3.6A @ 230V (NEC table FLA motor currents 3 phase)
[13:53:28] <LeelooMinai> So I am right that this is limitation imposed by shortcomings in VFDs, not absolute limitation?
[13:53:49] <SpeedEvil> fundamentally - peak watts in = peak watts out
[13:53:55] <SpeedEvil> - neglecting 10% or so losses.
[13:54:01] <zeeshan> according to the same nec table, single phase motor draws 8A @ 230V and three phase motor draws 16A @ 115V.
[13:54:01] <pcw_home> Its a limitation of single phase power
[13:54:02] <LeelooMinai> IN theory one couild create VFD that would run 1500watt 3 phase 220V motor from 110V mains?
[13:54:08] <zeeshan> the reason these numbers change is
[13:54:13] <zeeshan> because of polyphase math.
[13:54:15] <SpeedEvil> LeelooMinai: if you're happy with very slow start.
[13:54:28] <pcw_home> Sure but it woudl cost a lot more
[13:54:33] <LeelooMinai> Right, do such VFDs even exist? :)
[13:54:34] <SpeedEvil> Indeed
[13:54:38] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: You see - I told you:)
[13:55:04] <zeeshan> you told me what?
[13:55:09] <zeeshan> these guys are talking about a different aspect
[13:55:11] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: That it's possible
[13:55:18] <zeeshan> im talking about simple 1 phase current to 3 phase current conversion
[13:55:25] <pcw_home> the problem with single phase power is it disappears 120 times a second
[13:55:31] <zeeshan> EXACTLY
[13:55:39] <zeeshan> its due to the fact that the wave is 120deg apart
[13:55:52] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but if you store the energy in the DC bank in the middle, it does not matter
[13:55:55] <zeeshan> when you work out the math , you see the conversion between single to 3 phase is
[13:55:57] <zeeshan> 1.73x.
[13:56:04] <LeelooMinai> I know that 3 phase has much better rms
[13:56:04] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: it wont keep up
[13:56:15] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: It will, if it's big enough
[13:56:27] <pcw_home> Yes but the DC filter needs to be _MUCH_ bigger on single phase
[13:56:40] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but it can be...
[13:56:55] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, use flexible conduit and hard wire for that application
[13:56:59] <pcw_home> not without ~doubling the cost
[13:57:01] <LeelooMinai> They just don't put those bigger components into those vfds
[13:57:04] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: can i use teck
[13:57:15] <Tom_itx> you have my permission
[13:57:18] <zeeshan> :)
[13:57:26] <zeeshan> i think itll be the easiest
[13:57:38] <LeelooMinai> pcw_home: Sure, but in some cases double the price would be worth it - for example much cheaper for me than paying $1000 or more for running 220V upstairs:/
[13:57:39] <zeeshan> i dont understand something
[13:57:47] <zeeshan> even if you had a large storage capacitor at the dc link
[13:57:51] <Tom_itx> i wired my compressor the 3rd way :)
[13:57:57] <zeeshan> hwo does that change the rate of current on the input side?
[13:58:05] <LeelooMinai> I ordered 0.8kW spindle yesterday anyways:(
[13:58:11] <LeelooMinai> Because what can I do.
[13:58:28] <pcw_home> buying a bigger VFD and dealing with the derating is probably the easiest
[13:58:43] <zeeshan> pcw_home: shes limited to 15A 115V
[13:58:45] <zeeshan> thats the problem
[13:59:01] <LeelooMinai> pcw_home: They don't have 110V VFDs larger than 0.75kW out
[13:59:09] <zeeshan> they dont for a very good reason :P
[13:59:30] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: DOn't confuse me again - if they wanted they would make it work with 1.5kW:)
[13:59:36] <zeeshan> they cant
[13:59:42] <LeelooMinai> They can
[14:00:07] <zeeshan> 15A/2 = 7.5A current avaiable when you go from 115V to 230V
[14:00:11] <LeelooMinai> 1500watt -> circuit voodoo -> 1500watt with some small loss:)
[14:00:32] <zeeshan> when you go from single phase 230V to three phase 230v , 7.5A / 1.73 = 4.33A
[14:00:34] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: You know that your CPU uses 100A current?
[14:00:36] <zeeshan> available max
[14:00:49] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: nope
[14:00:53] <zeeshan> but i bet it doesnt do it at 115v.
[14:00:55] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: How do you think it happend if it comes from 15A socket? :)
[14:01:04] <zeeshan> cause its at a much lower voltage
[14:01:10] <zeeshan> you dont seem to understand simple math
[14:01:10] <Tom_itx> it doesn't _use_ it
[14:01:18] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Yes, but that's power - I am not talking about taking 1500watt and creating 2000watt
[14:01:19] <pcw_home> Sure but theres probably no market for larger 110V VFDs
[14:01:48] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: I tell you, I understand the math:)
[14:01:50] <zeeshan> pcw_home: what i'm saying is youre limited by the current output if your 15A 110V socket
[14:02:00] <zeeshan> and when you work out the math, it works out to 4.33A
[14:02:05] <zeeshan> 3 phase
[14:02:19] <zeeshan> which works out to a motor max size of 1Hp
[14:02:27] <zeeshan> if you had a 20A 115V socket, it'd be a diff story
[14:02:48] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Are you talking about what is possible in theory or in practice? :)
[14:02:52] <zeeshan> in practice.
[14:02:59] <zeeshan> i sized electrical systems that went backwards
[14:03:03] <zeeshan> three phase to single phase
[14:03:03] <PetefromTn_> Don't ya have a drier or oven on 220v?
[14:03:11] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: And I am talking about a VFD that could be made.
[14:03:21] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: you're limited by the current.
[14:03:22] <pcw_home> well ~1600 W is ~1600W so ~2HP max but about 1 HP realistically
[14:03:36] <zeeshan> pcw_home: that's assuming youre not going from 115v to 220v
[14:03:40] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: No you are not, not in the theoretical setup.
[14:03:48] <zeeshan> 220V single phase to 220 three phase
[14:03:51] <zeeshan> you can easily do 2hp.
[14:03:56] <pcw_home> could be made but not enough market
[14:04:15] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Do you agree that such VFD can be made or not? :)
[14:04:20] <zeeshan> they can be made
[14:04:24] <zeeshan> as long as you can draw more than 15A .
[14:04:32] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Not true...
[14:04:33] <zeeshan> if you had a 20A socket, you'd have no problem
[14:04:48] <JT-Shop> new parting tool leaves a much better finish on the back side of the part :)
[14:04:49] <zeeshan> ok believe what you want
[14:04:51] <pcw_home> since a 110V --> 230V motor VFD needs a capacitive voltage doubler thats a lot of the cost
[14:04:51] <zeeshan> i dont really care
[14:05:13] <zeeshan> some people just need to discover answers themself :P
[14:05:16] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: You can get 1600watt from 110V socket, so in theory you can drive 1500watt mottor
[14:05:24] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you're oversimplifying things
[14:05:37] <zeeshan> Yea, if you were staying single phase.
[14:05:43] <zeeshan> and running a 110Vac motor.
[14:05:44] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: yes, it is significantly more complex to make a 1500W (out) inverter.
[14:05:45] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: No, any phase number
[14:05:52] <pcw_home> But 1500W motors need 2-3 x more for short times or they are not being used well
[14:06:00] <zeeshan> you're forgetting the fact
[14:06:05] <zeeshan> that that power is a result of a wave.
[14:06:10] <zeeshan> that wave has a certain duration
[14:06:20] <zeeshan> voltage wave and current wave
[14:06:24] <pcw_home> your outlet is ~1500W peak
[14:06:26] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: err - no.
[14:06:40] <zeeshan> you can't change this fact.
[14:06:44] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: I am not forgeting anything:) I am just saying that if you want you can buffer energy between the two sides. Will not be maybe cheap, but you can do it.
[14:06:46] <SpeedEvil> pcw_home: it's 1500W average. It's significantly more than this peak (for the several milliseconds around.
[14:07:00] <zeeshan> that when you go from a single phase wave to a 3 phase wave
[14:07:02] <zeeshan> current wave
[14:07:06] <zeeshan> the conversion is 1.73
[14:07:21] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: 'conversion' ?
[14:07:38] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: When you buffer energy between two sides, all of thise current/wave things becomes irrelevant really.
[14:07:41] <pcw_home> no need to singe 3 phase conversions power is all that needed
[14:07:42] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: if you're talking about power factor/phase difference - it doesn't work like that
[14:07:52] <PetefromTn_> the answer is simple...just get some dilithium crystals and build a simple warp core power plant..
[14:08:42] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: I think you base all of your statement on the assumption that you cannot overcome 15A max limit from the input side
[14:08:44] <_methods> just build yourself a small fusion reactor and none of this will matter
[14:08:49] <pcw_home> A well used 2 HP (1500W motor) may deliver 5KW for 30 seconds, the outlet wont
[14:08:55] <zeeshan> okay guys
[14:09:02] <zeeshan> forget all the math
[14:09:39] <SpeedEvil> There is 3000W max from a 1500W socket at wave peak.
[14:09:42] <LeelooMinai> Because, well 1 phase 110V is rms, but it's just one sine wave, but 3 phase uses 3 waves shifted by 120 deg and the sum of squares is constant at 1.5 I think the specified voltage
[14:09:43] <Tom_itx> zeeshan my question to you is:
[14:09:52] <pcw_home> so a 15 A 110 outlet is not really suitable for a 1500 W motor
[14:09:54] <Tom_itx> when are you ever gonna power your cnc up?
[14:09:57] <PetefromTn_> just need a Mr. Fusion and some old bananna peels..
[14:09:58] <zeeshan> http://electricaltechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/electrical-requirements-httpelectricalt-echnology1.blogspot.com_..-motor-formula-input-breaker-size-copper-wire-size-for-single-phase-and-three-phase-motors-300x205.jpg
[14:10:01] <zeeshan> just look at that chart
[14:10:10] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: which is not actually relevant.
[14:10:11] <zeeshan> explain to my why the 1hp single phase 230V motor FLA
[14:10:11] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Irrelevant:)
[14:10:17] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: wire sizing makes many assumptions
[14:10:19] <zeeshan> is different from 3 phase 1hp
[14:10:26] <zeeshan> er
[14:10:27] <zeeshan> wrong chart
[14:10:51] <SpeedEvil> And startup currents change it dramatically.
[14:10:58] <zeeshan> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/elctrical-motor-full-load-current-d_1499.html
[14:10:59] <zeeshan> here we go
[14:11:04] <zeeshan> these are FLA.
[14:11:10] <zeeshan> explain the difference please
[14:11:35] <zeeshan> why does one say 8A ?
[14:11:38] <zeeshan> and the other says 3.6A?
[14:11:44] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: the tables are basically inventing shit.
[14:11:50] <zeeshan> they are not.
[14:11:56] <zeeshan> go read the FLA motor plate rasting
[14:12:01] <SpeedEvil> Single phase motor - 1hp - 16A at 115V
[14:12:03] <zeeshan> of a single phase 1hp motor vs 1hp 3 phase
[14:12:05] <zeeshan> i can take some pics for you
[14:12:11] <SpeedEvil> That is starting amps.
[14:12:14] <zeeshan> infact ill draw them both and measure the current
[14:12:28] <zeeshan> drive them
[14:12:46] <pcw_home> power factor (the VFD will have bad power factor also though in the opposite direction)
[14:12:53] <SpeedEvil> You are claiming that motors are 30% efficient
[14:13:04] <pcw_home> power factor
[14:13:18] <LeelooMinai> Reading above I feel a bit better being confused by that VFD stuff before:)
[14:13:19] <SpeedEvil> pcw_home: it can have power factor of unity - if it has a PFC stage first
[14:13:33] <SpeedEvil> pcw_home: As it will be required to have in some markets
[14:13:43] <pcw_home> sure for a _LOT_ more money
[14:14:00] <SpeedEvil> quite
[14:14:11] <pcw_home> a bargain VFD will not have this
[14:15:22] <LeelooMinai> Too bad I have not seen even non-bargain ones that can do better than that 0.75kW
[14:15:37] <LeelooMinai> What do I have to build it myself? :)
[14:15:58] <pcw_home> even at unity power factor ~800W is about the limit if you want to get any use of your motor (max ~2x torque for tough spots)
[14:16:05] <Tom_itx> just have 3phase brought into your house
[14:16:27] <LeelooMinai> Tom_itx: You have the "just" part wrong though:)
[14:16:43] <Tom_itx> i'm aware what's involved
[14:16:57] <LeelooMinai> Yes, not very practical in my case
[14:16:58] <PetefromTn_> drier/oven 220v bigass extension chord....
[14:17:07] * furrywolf doesn't even have 1ph supplied!
[14:17:17] <LeelooMinai> PetefromTn_: Right, if it was not across the whole house from my CNC
[14:17:25] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, do you live in a cave?
[14:17:34] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf wishes she lives in a cave.
[14:17:35] <LeelooMinai> Antarctica I believe
[14:17:38] <PetefromTn_> mine was... thus the bigass extension chord.. worked fine even in our rental house.
[14:18:07] <LeelooMinai> PetefromTn_: My mom would kill me if it was running across the house like that:p
[14:18:25] <LeelooMinai> ^ You see, Antarctica internet connection
[14:19:50] <PetefromTn_> explain to her that you are building a BORG automaton recharging port and that it will be cleaning the entire house while she is at work....
[14:20:08] <LeelooMinai> She is like 65... not working any more:)
[14:20:34] <PetefromTn_> even better she can direct the cleaning and cooking operations!
[14:20:49] <LeelooMinai> I don't think she can be fooled at this stage... She knows how all my ideas end - with messing her house up:)
[14:21:15] <Tom_itx> hide it under the carpet
[14:21:20] <PetefromTn_> don't you have a garage? Basement?
[14:21:37] <norias> hmm
[14:21:39] <norias> machining dynamics
[14:21:40] <LeelooMinai> No carpets:) And I have all the things in my room and I want it that way.
[14:22:27] <LeelooMinai> Maybe I should by a human-size capactor and store energy there first.
[14:22:27] <PetefromTn_> then save your pennies and have a 220v power receptacle brought into your room by a certified electrician. If what you have ALREADY done in your room is any indication of the future you will want it anywyaya LOL...
[14:22:56] <norias> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HRVER68/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B00HRVER68&link_code=as3&tag=blue039-20
[14:23:06] <LeelooMinai> PetefromTn_: I am even scared to think how much that would cost:/
[14:23:17] <pcw_home> big flywheel...
[14:23:51] <LeelooMinai> Who would think that powering a silly cnc spindle can be so problematic...
[14:24:05] <LeelooMinai> It's more complicated than building the whole CNC:)
[14:24:24] <PetefromTn_> get a stationary bike and hook your belt drive to the output?
[14:24:44] <PetefromTn_> pedal yer ass off!
[14:24:48] <LeelooMinai> I can generate maybe 1000watt in short burst
[14:25:02] <LeelooMinai> Not enough:)
[14:25:17] <Tom_itx> get 2 and invite your friend over
[14:25:25] <Rab> Might be more efficient to belt the bike straight to the spindle.
[14:25:30] <furrywolf> 1000W would put you into world-class cyclist territory, methinks.
[14:25:43] <Rab> Yeah, I think 100W is more typical.
[14:25:47] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Nah, not in short burst. The top sprinters can do 2000
[14:26:07] <LeelooMinai> 100watt can be done by average person easily
[14:26:24] <LeelooMinai> At long distance
[14:26:47] <zeeshan> subpanel: http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7561/16251091345_498a51f72d_h.jpg
[14:26:48] <furrywolf> theoretical output > output after gearing, generating, etc losses.
[14:26:50] <LeelooMinai> Best cyclists can do 450-500 at one hour
[14:27:11] <zeeshan> location of machine in relation to subpanel : http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8668/16251092485_617a7233df_k.jpg
[14:27:27] <LeelooMinai> Trained ones can usually do 200watt + at one hour, 300watt+ if they are very good
[14:27:28] <zeeshan> what is the easiest way to power the machine up
[14:27:32] <zeeshan> solid conduit to machine?
[14:27:46] <zeeshan> (i still need to level the machine, so solid conduit might be a bad idea)
[14:27:47] <furrywolf> easiest? SOOW
[14:27:54] <zeeshan> soow can't be used according to code
[14:27:58] <zeeshan> i want it to be legal too :)
[14:28:05] <furrywolf> leeloo: what problem are you having that can't be solved by wire? heh
[14:28:07] <Tom_itx> you must have one wide ass lens on that camera
[14:28:15] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: pan photo
[14:28:19] <furrywolf> ... you must have weird codes where you are. you sure about that?
[14:28:22] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Look at your socket there - it's appaled at your job:)
[14:28:24] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i posted it
[14:28:50] <zeeshan> http://ecmweb.com/site-files/ecmweb.com/files/archive/ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/006ecmCBfig2x.jpg
[14:29:01] <PetefromTn_> hey ya got a little RF31 cool!
[14:29:06] <zeeshan> i dont think that applies to teck wire though.
[14:29:23] <zeeshan> teck wire is expensive =[
[14:29:37] <furrywolf> that only says you have to have a plug.
[14:29:44] <zeeshan> yes
[14:29:54] <zeeshan> 80A plug is hard to find
[14:29:56] <zeeshan> 100A plug is expensive
[14:30:05] <zeeshan> i know my thing might draw 70A at most
[14:30:12] <furrywolf> anderson 175A powerpoles are ul approved to 600V, and $5 each. :P
[14:30:13] <zeeshan> so running a 60A might be cutting it close
[14:30:17] <Tom_itx> zeeshan that isn't wired to code
[14:30:24] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: what isnt
[14:30:38] <Tom_itx> the receptacle
[14:30:43] <zeeshan> why
[14:31:13] <Tom_itx> it should have a bare gnd wire going to the case and GND lug
[14:32:15] <pcw_home> I dont like the expression on the outlet
[14:32:35] <Tom_itx> and the wire doesn't have the required slack inside the box
[14:33:06] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: im pretty sure i read you cant run bare for branch breakers
[14:33:10] <zeeshan> branch circuits i mean
[14:33:30] <PetefromTn_> yeah but you missed the absolute WORST mistake...
[14:33:43] <PetefromTn_> that damn Mazda has a CHEVY motor in it JEEZ!!!
[14:33:50] <zeeshan> haha
[14:33:50] <_methods> hahahhahaha
[14:33:54] <Tom_itx> that's an improvement
[14:34:05] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: would you run teck?
[14:34:08] <zeeshan> if it was your panel
[14:34:13] <zeeshan> what are the alternatives
[14:34:14] <Tom_itx> where?
[14:34:19] <zeeshan> between that sub to the machine
[14:34:20] <furrywolf> zee: http://www.andersonpower.com/files.php?file=DS-PP120(9).pdf
[14:34:22] <_methods> not for the motor
[14:34:22] <CaptHindsight> the conduit isn't square to the box
[14:34:25] <Tom_itx> i would
[14:34:36] <PetefromTn_> LOL
[14:34:38] <Rab> zeeshan, why can't you use flexible conduit?
[14:34:51] <zeeshan> Rab: very expensive
[14:34:55] <zeeshan> its like a 100 bux for 50 feet
[14:35:00] <zeeshan> i dont even need 50 feet, i need like 15
[14:35:25] <zeeshan> thats why im trying to figure out the legal ways to do it and choose the cheapest :)
[14:36:21] <furrywolf> anderson plugs are usually used for battery cables, but they are ul approved, 600v rated, and available in touch-proof versions if you have a dickhead inspector...
[14:36:30] <furrywolf> they're also CHEAP.
[14:36:39] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, it looks fine actually. im just stalling to start working on mine
[14:37:13] <zeeshan> furrywolf: that is interesting
[14:37:17] <zeeshan> never seen this connector before
[14:37:48] <furrywolf> they're also hermaphroditic, which makes them useful for a lot of other things, like dc wiring, because you can connect any two plugs together and + and - still match up. :)
[14:37:51] <zeeshan> so far i think its between flex conduit + thhn
[14:37:53] <zeeshan> or teck
[14:38:03] <Rab> zeeshan, surely you have a Habitat for Humany or similar building surplus place around?
[14:38:12] <zeeshan> Rab: maybe
[14:38:13] <zeeshan> they'd have it? :)
[14:38:18] <Rab> Maybe!
[14:38:29] <Rab> What dia would you need? 1"?
[14:38:34] <furrywolf> look for people scrapping RVs.
[14:38:37] <zeeshan> 1-1/4"
[14:38:37] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, they would typically run steel flex conduit to a machine
[14:38:50] <furrywolf> 4/4 in aluminum flexible conduit is popular for wiring RVs to the panel on a pole.
[14:39:35] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: better put some cardboard over those open panels until the covers go on, so drunken children could slip and fall into them and be electrocuted
[14:39:51] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: only way drunken children will learn
[14:39:57] <zeeshan> a little bit of 240v
[14:40:27] <zeeshan> its all covered
[14:40:34] <zeeshan> no kids in the house yet
[14:44:52] <norias> hmm
[14:44:56] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: start working!
[14:45:01] <norias> wonder what sort of feedback can be observed
[14:45:16] <norias> from say spindle current or axis motor current
[14:45:30] <norias> that is different between smooth and chatter cutting
[14:45:39] <furrywolf> norias: monitoring for crashes/dull tools/broken tools is common, but I don't think you get much precision for anything else.
[14:46:30] <zeeshan> norias: only limited to those? :)
[14:46:36] <zeeshan> accelerometer?
[14:46:36] <pcw_home> sound card -->> FFT ==> chatter detect
[14:46:40] <zeeshan> yea!
[14:46:46] <norias> oh, good idea on that one
[14:46:55] <furrywolf> pcw: any word on a used 7I76E?
[14:47:24] <pcw_home> i forgot to look last week, will check on Monday
[14:47:26] <norias> doing research in machining
[14:47:30] <norias> has long been a dream of mine
[14:47:32] <furrywolf> k, thanks.
[14:47:41] <zeeshan> norias: academic research?
[14:47:50] <norias> yeah, if i could get in to it
[14:47:59] <norias> i don't have academic credentials, though
[14:47:59] <furrywolf> you could mount a good accelerometer to the spindle, like zee suggested.
[14:48:13] <norias> that's not a bad idea
[14:48:30] <furrywolf> chatter will register pretty clearly I suspect.
[14:48:32] <norias> i bet you could actually get a decent idea of the harmonics in the system
[14:48:41] <norias> with piezo's mounted to the machine base
[14:48:50] <norias> like in the spindle housing
[14:48:53] <skunkworks> pcw_home: what about the 7i73? :)
[14:48:59] <zeeshan> norias: at one job in the past the cnc grinders had an accel that would monitor vibration of the machine
[14:49:06] <zeeshan> and compensate for it lol
[14:49:08] <norias> neat
[14:49:26] <pcw_home> Some machines use piezos for fast fine tool movement to tune out chatter
[14:49:42] <zeeshan> you can also pick up chatter on a load cell in a lathe for example
[14:49:58] <norias> all good points
[14:50:15] <norias> i bought a gage once
[14:50:17] <norias> with a ...
[14:50:34] <norias> basically a vise handle with a torque wrench built in to it
[14:50:47] <norias> and i'd calibrate the vise handle with the gage in the vise
[14:50:52] <LeelooMinai> How about some active dampener - that monitors the vibrations and vibrates to cancel them? :)
[14:50:53] <norias> and track that force with jobs
[14:51:00] <pcw_home> skunkworks: yeah at a high servo thread rate you can get this into HAL in real time with a A-D
[14:51:22] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: thats actually something a grad student presented 4 weeks ago in a seminar
[14:51:33] <LeelooMinai> Wasn't me!
[14:51:35] <zeeshan> they were machining thin parts that could not be rigidly mounted
[14:51:43] <pcw_home> there has been some work used piezos with resistors across for passive damping
[14:51:44] <zeeshan> they were using a magnetic field to add dampening
[14:51:45] <zeeshan> was cool
[14:51:48] <skunkworks> pcw_home: I meant - are they close to being in stock... :)
[14:51:48] <zeeshan> er eddy currents.
[14:51:52] <norias> well, neat
[14:52:54] <pcw_home> Oh no 7I73s for a while, we've been so busy with some larger OEM orders that little stuff is lagging
[14:53:59] <pcw_home> I think I may have one around from photog box, Ill check monday
[14:54:04] <LeelooMinai> I was wondering actually - you think if I wattached a rear wheel oil dambener to the cnc and to the wall, it would work well at dampening vibrations? Kind of McGyver cheap style:)
[14:54:14] <LeelooMinai> dampener*
[14:54:31] <Tom_itx> pcw_home you got alot to remember come monday :)
[14:54:38] <skunkworks> heh
[14:55:32] <LeelooMinai> I mean somethink like this, but not as expensive: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Rockshox-Kage-RC-Rear-Shock-Downhill-DH-Bike-Suspension-Damper-Unit-Black-/311085081526
[14:55:36] <LeelooMinai> thing*
[14:56:15] <LeelooMinai> May be not good at high frequencies maybe, right?
[14:56:52] <norias> http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1607/2459/original.jpg
[14:57:40] <pcw_home> Yeah wrong impedance
[14:58:00] <LeelooMinai> I think they can be tuned a bit
[14:58:40] <pcw_home> needs to be ~1000x stiffer and ~1000x smaller range of motion
[14:58:43] <Rab> LeelooMinai, since you don't actually want travel either, I'm not sure that gives you anything more than a solid strut.
[14:59:20] <LeelooMinai> Well, it has dampening action due to oil there
[15:01:32] <LeelooMinai> It's designed for large "swings", but probably works decent for small vibrations too - just not sure how small.
[15:01:46] <Rab> But any travel represents a loss of rigidity and wasted energy. I think piling sandbags around your mill would be more effective.
[15:02:02] <zeeshan> only way to do it
[15:02:04] <zeeshan> is test :)
[15:02:23] * LeelooMinai imagines puting sandbags in her bedroom
[15:02:29] <LeelooMinai> Maybe not...
[15:03:18] <LeelooMinai> Maybe some huge sprintgs with elastomer inside attached to the wall:)
[15:03:19] <Tom_itx> we filled a cavity with pennies once to mill the outside of it. it was free but the bank didn't think much of all the coolant on the pennies when we went to cash them back in
[15:03:24] <furrywolf> no sandbags in my bedroom. lol. it's small enough as it is!
[15:04:01] <LeelooMinai> I have actually sand inside my frame
[15:04:13] <LeelooMinai> DId not go to the vibration in practice part yet though
[15:04:24] <furrywolf> chinese quality sand casting? :P
[15:04:25] <norias> so
[15:04:27] <norias> i'm thinking
[15:04:44] <LeelooMinai> No, playground sand in aluminum tubes:)
[15:04:46] <norias> there should be some sort of vibration just due to the spindle / tool holder / tool combo
[15:04:59] <norias> that gives you information about the performance in a given material
[15:05:09] <norias> so, if the spindle was able to collect the right data
[15:05:10] <Nick001-shop> pcw_home - got some question for Hardinge cards - need to make sure 'm getting everything I need
[15:05:27] <norias> you can spin the tool up, ramping through different rpm ranges
[15:05:39] <norias> and have a baseline to adjust against
[15:05:44] <norias> once the tool contacts material
[15:05:56] <furrywolf> I have plenty of silicone in my bedroom, it's probably good at dampening vibrations too... especially the vixskin, that stuff is squishy.
[15:06:47] * LeelooMinai decides it's better not ask details
[15:07:39] <furrywolf> lol
[15:09:16] <pcw_home> Nick001-shop: ask away, I'm here until SO drags me away to do shopping
[15:09:39] <Tom_itx> ugh
[15:13:16] <Nick001-shop> got a list 7i49, 7137TA, 7i49HV, I think 7i29 to drive the 2 axis motors from the 107vdc power supply for the spindle.
[15:13:47] <Nick001-shop> is that all I need?
[15:14:25] <pcw_home> You dont have the original analog drives?
[15:15:04] <Nick001-shop> yes - I'm elimination the AB servo drives
[15:15:17] <Nick001-shop> eliminating
[15:16:03] <Nick001-shop> also the tachs have to go and I'm keeping the resolvers
[15:16:38] <pcw_home> Its more than a little awkward to use resolvers and a 7I29
[15:17:38] <pcw_home> you might be better off (assuming the drives are bad), replacing the drives with analog drives like AMC and retaining the tachometers
[15:20:03] <Nick001-shop> the tachs have always given me problems with getting oil in them and having to disassemble them to clean.
[15:22:28] <zeeshan> what kind of servos Nick001-shop
[15:22:52] <Nick001-shop> I remember being told I could run them in velocity mode with the resolvers and no tachs.
[15:23:05] <furrywolf> I know! I'll pay shipping cost for your complete servos, tachs, and drives, then you can replace all the parts with stuff you like.
[15:23:26] <zeeshan> lol
[15:23:55] <Nick001-shop> <zeeshan> AB servo drivers
[15:24:21] <zeeshan> you cant replace the seal?
[15:24:39] <zeeshan> reason i ask is cause i have siemens servo drives
[15:24:47] <zeeshan> and the resolver looks like its sealed pretty good
[15:24:50] <zeeshan> hopefully i dont get that isue!
[15:24:54] <zeeshan> resolver = tachometr i mean
[15:25:18] <Nick001-shop> No seals - just a shielded bearing that a mist can get around
[15:25:48] <pcw_home> probably not great for the motor brushes eaither
[15:26:00] <furrywolf> mill a plate with a seal recess in the middle and a couple holes to match some part of it with screws, press in seal, put on shaft?
[15:26:08] <Nick001-shop> never had a problem with a resolver on these machines
[15:27:20] <pcw_home> resolvers can run submerged in oil, they are just transformers
[15:30:21] <Nick001-shop> I guess that's why I haven't had a problem
[15:31:40] <pcw_home> in any case I would suggest using analog drives in velocity mode either with the
[15:31:41] <pcw_home> tachometer velocity feedback or feedback from a spare analog output channel
[15:31:43] <pcw_home> if you use simulated tachometer feedback with a spare output you will probably
[15:31:44] <pcw_home> need to bump the servo thread rate up to 4 KHz or so
[15:33:33] <Jymmm> pcw_home: 4KHz?! That's faster than the speed of light!!!
[15:35:07] <furrywolf> ... ?
[15:35:41] <Nick001-shop> And how do I actually do this - in machinist terms -)
[15:36:02] <furrywolf> Nick: first step, /ignore Jymmm
[15:36:26] <Jymmm> \ignore furrywolf
[15:36:31] <pcw_home> do what set the servo thread rate?
[15:37:52] <Nick001-shop> I have one Hardinge going with pico boards and a resolver converter on the spindle but 2 encoders on the axis's
[15:39:19] <Nick001-shop> Want to try mesa cards because of the resolver issues
[15:40:35] <pcw_home> My only generic advice is its going to be easier to use some decent analog drives than 7I29s in this situation
[15:43:25] <rob_h> what machine are you converting
[15:44:06] <furrywolf> yay, shopmaster is sending me a new z timing belt, which will hopefully be the right length, unlike the last one.
[15:44:35] <Nick001-shop> would the Pico servo amp qualify?
[15:45:50] <pcw_home> its not an analog velocity drive, I was thinking more like a AMC drive
[15:46:32] <Nick001-shop> <rob_h> Hardinge CHNC with Aleen Bradley controls
[15:47:50] <rob_h> aah nice, nice simple machine todo
[15:48:16] <rob_h> ours had the crappy simens 810T but no more :)
[15:48:31] <Nick001-shop> How come the Pico drive works - Will AMC drives take the 107 vdc?
[15:48:45] <bobo_> nick why not use filtered air for presserizing motor end cap , keep out oil etc. ?
[15:50:12] <Nick001-shop> <bobo_> The X axis has an air motor exhaust inside the enclosures
[15:50:49] <Nick001-shop> and an air cushion for the turret stop
[15:50:51] <pcw_home> most any drive will work I'm just saying what I think is cleanest implementation with our cards
[15:52:16] <rob_h> why not just go AC servos?
[15:52:31] <pcw_home> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMC-ADVANCED-MOTION-CONTROLS-Brush-Type-PWM-Servo-Amplifier-25A20T-LF3-/381113369212?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58bc20827c
[15:52:31] <Nick001-shop> Need to have something to do the voltage
[15:52:32] <pcw_home> a bargain!
[15:52:48] <zeeshan> so cheappp
[15:53:18] <pcw_home> that is a real bargain...
[15:53:20] <bobo_> nick air motor hooked to resolver ?
[15:53:27] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, would that work for a spindle control on a DC brushed motor?
[15:53:34] <pcw_home> Yes
[15:53:36] <Tom_itx> cool
[15:53:44] <pcw_home> thats 250V 20A
[15:53:57] <Tom_itx> aww crap, i need 90v
[15:54:13] <Tom_itx> they reduce mains down in the current control
[15:54:19] <pcw_home> 250V _max_
[15:54:29] <Tom_itx> i'd still need a source
[15:54:34] <Tom_itx> transformer or something
[15:54:40] <pcw_home> Yeah
[15:55:45] <rob_h> i have a DC servo motor 52V 90amp stall love find a AMC drive for them
[15:55:58] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: they make a version w/ a builtin supply..
[15:56:16] <pcw_home> sorry 25A peak 200V
[15:56:18] <Tom_itx> once i get the control back up i'll finish my spindle encoder update and i'll be one step closer to rigid tapping
[15:56:31] <Tom_itx> just need to find a reverse drive for the spindle
[15:56:33] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: brushed spindle?
[15:56:45] <Tom_itx> yes 90v DC brushed motor
[15:56:51] <Tom_itx> low amps
[15:57:07] <zeeshan> B25A20AC similar to what i have
[15:57:10] <zeeshan> but thats a massive drive lol
[15:57:19] <zeeshan> thats the smallest one i see with ac ps built in
[15:57:39] <Tom_itx> that says brushless
[15:57:59] <zeeshan> will drive both brushless and brush
[15:58:06] <zeeshan> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/support/an-007.pdf
[15:58:24] <zeeshan> i tested them on my brush drives
[15:58:32] <zeeshan> brush motors i mean
[15:58:33] <Tom_itx> i'm not spending $500 on it
[15:58:38] <zeeshan> lol
[15:58:45] <zeeshan> i wouldnt suggest it if it was 500
[15:58:57] <Tom_itx> https://www.servo2go.com/product.php?ID=100482
[15:59:15] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Advanced-Motion-Controls-brushless-PWM-servo-amplifier-BE25A20ACQ-INV-/221658626927?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339be23b6f
[15:59:17] <zeeshan> i got 5 for 200
[15:59:25] <Tom_itx> send me one
[15:59:29] <zeeshan> no!
[15:59:44] <zeeshan> 5 axis :D
[15:59:55] <zeeshan> they come up for 40 bux sometimes
[16:00:01] <Tom_itx> what about brake?
[16:00:15] <zeeshan> the be25a20ac has internal brake
[16:00:25] <zeeshan> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be25a20ac.pdf
[16:00:32] <zeeshan> "Built-in brake/shunt regulator '
[16:00:36] <zeeshan> "Internal brake/shunt resistor"
[16:01:03] <zeeshan> im sure there are other drives, but after ssi told me about these
[16:01:08] <zeeshan> i couldnt find any others that were cheap
[16:01:12] <zeeshan> and could handle all sorts of servos
[16:01:33] <pcw_home> What i am suggesting to Nick001-shop is that that drive on Ebay is a near drop-in replacement for his AB drives and will work well with the mesa card set
[16:02:23] <pcw_home> (since he already has the DC supply)
[16:03:29] <pcw_home> and its hard to beat $29 BIN (not sure if they will be scummy about combining shipping)
[16:04:34] <Nick001-shop> What voltage does this take? I have 107VDC and that datasheet says AC voltage
[16:05:03] <pcw_home> 200V max
[16:05:35] <pcw_home> AMC has the data sheet
[16:06:54] <pcw_home> actually 40 to 190 VDC
[16:07:25] <pcw_home> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/25a20.pdf
[16:07:32] <Tom_itx> pcw_home do you remember the ratio going from AC to DC volts?
[16:08:03] <pcw_home> with capacitor input filter is sqrt(2) X RMS
[16:08:37] <Nick001-shop> I guess thats the one - I'll email the seller and see if he'll ship on my UPS account
[16:12:58] <pcw_home> so 120vac --> about 165V DC after diode drops and misc losses
[16:19:24] <Deejay> gn8
[16:21:08] <Nick001-shop> Using the AMC drive - does that eliminate the need for the 7i29 card?
[16:29:31] <Nick001-shop> <pcw_home> BTW - data sheet says tach feedback - how will that be eliminated - or does the 7i49HV card take care of that?
[16:36:50] <pcw_home> Yes, the AMC drive replaces 1/2 of a 7I29 and yes you can use a spare analog channel to simulate a tachometer
[16:40:12] <Nick001-shop> How about the rest of the cads I think I need - 7i49, 7i37TA, and 7i49 HV
[16:40:55] <Nick001-shop> do I need a 5i20 thrown in there?
[16:41:32] <Nick001-shop> cards
[17:01:30] <bobo_> Tom_itx: what machine are you working on?
[17:04:12] <Tom_itx> a little sherline mill
[17:04:28] <bobo_> neat
[17:05:33] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/psu_index.php
[17:05:35] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/new_pulleys/timing_pulley_index.php
[17:05:44] <Tom_itx> some of what i've been doing to it
[17:06:43] <bobo_> you have been busy
[17:07:39] <Tom_itx> it's like putting a bigblock chevy in a pinto
[17:09:13] <furrywolf> worst I've seen is a sbc in a metro.
[17:09:16] <bobo_> I was sorry to hear of the passing of "Mr. Sherline"
[17:10:17] <bobo_> another worth while person gone
[17:12:08] <bobo_> how about the big block chev push snow blower?
[17:13:48] <furrywolf> I need to find a good piece of metal to mount my power supply to.
[17:13:50] <furrywolf> I wish I had a brake.
[17:14:36] <furrywolf> a piece of sheet aluminum with an l bend, with one side about 7"x3" and the other 3x3"...
[17:14:42] <furrywolf> 7"x3"
[17:14:47] <furrywolf> grrr
[17:14:51] <furrywolf> the other 7"x7"
[17:14:58] * furrywolf should stay off irc while tired
[17:16:02] <furrywolf> i.e. cut a 7" x 10" piece, stick it 3" in the brake, and bend 90 degrees. except the only brake I have is harbor freight's $20 one, which is worthless.
[17:17:56] <furrywolf> http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-bending-brake-39103.html works great if you need to bend tinfoil, sloppily!
[17:18:35] <furrywolf> "The bending brake’s design allows for a full 90º capacity in steel as thick as and can handle stock up to 18 in. wide." LOL! they removed the numbers for how thick it could bend, poorly.
[17:18:59] <furrywolf> both of the places that say the thickness it can bend are missing
[17:19:06] <norias> lol
[17:19:21] <norias> i had one in a shop i worked at
[17:19:24] <norias> broke it pretty quick
[17:19:35] <norias> someone brazed it back together
[17:19:38] <norias> broke again
[17:21:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: 2*4, jeep
[17:21:17] <SpeedEvil> = brake
[17:22:41] <furrywolf> that won't make neet bends on a 3" wide piece of aluminum
[17:23:33] <furrywolf> also, it's raining outside.
[17:26:59] <Tom_itx> drive it in your front room then
[17:27:38] <furrywolf> it'd go through the floor.
[17:28:50] <furrywolf> using non-shielded wire between the power supply and the stepper drivers won't be a problem, right?
[17:29:07] <Tom_itx> it could be
[17:29:30] <Tom_itx> i went shielded all the way
[17:29:40] <furrywolf> not between drivers and motors, just power supply and drivers... and I have some nice red-black zip cord...
[17:32:30] <Tom_itx> you could try it
[18:02:02] <alex_joni> Jymmm: no, an atmega microcontroller
[18:02:28] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Would an arduino work?
[18:02:36] <alex_joni> sure
[18:02:43] <alex_joni> I think (although I never used one)
[18:03:07] <alex_joni> but an encoder turned by hand should be slow enough
[18:03:19] <Jymmm> alex_joni: is your atmel code available?
[18:03:31] <alex_joni> huh.. I wonder if I still have it
[18:03:44] <Jymmm> alex_joni: dont worry about it, not a biggy
[18:03:53] <Jymmm> alex_joni: What did you use for a PA ?
[18:04:07] <Jymmm> amp
[18:04:10] <Jymmm> audio
[18:04:33] <alex_joni> http://juve.ro/blog/projects/radio
[18:04:58] <alex_joni> I used one of those cheap usb/audio cards
[18:05:06] <alex_joni> then connected some speakers to it
[18:05:13] <alex_joni> nothing beyond that
[18:05:37] <Jymmm> oh so not very loud at all then
[18:06:33] <alex_joni> no.. regular amplified speakers (5$ or so)
[18:06:41] <zeeshan> something is up with my wiring for my lubricator
[18:06:48] <alex_joni> I doubt I would build one today :)
[18:06:51] <zeeshan> the resistance check doesnt make sense at the connector
[18:06:53] <Jymmm> oh powered speakers, yeah, ok YUCK =)
[18:07:11] <alex_joni> I mean the radio..
[18:07:15] <Jymmm> I have some JBL satellite speakers I'd wan tto use
[18:07:22] <alex_joni> simpler to get an older cellphone and just use that
[18:07:34] <alex_joni> has wifi/streaming/interface, etc
[18:08:21] <Jymmm> alex_joni: True, I might use a mechless car stereo for the amp
[18:08:41] <Jymmm> 45W
[18:09:30] <alex_joni> yup
[18:09:33] <furrywolf> 99.9% of car stereos are ~18W, not 40, 45, 50, 60...
[18:09:37] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Hmmm, those cheap tablets might work too, 7" screen
[18:09:44] <alex_joni> right
[18:09:54] <alex_joni> and less hassle
[18:10:17] <Jymmm> basically you wouldn't do it again is what you're saying =)
[18:10:30] <furrywolf> anything greater than (12/sqrt(2))^2/4 is marketing. :P
[18:11:46] <Jymmm> alex_joni: On sale for $20 USD and USB power too http://www.frys.com/product/7172722?site=sa:adpages%20page:P6_FRI%20date:010915
[18:12:44] <Jymmm> alex_joni: gut that sucker... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxMjAw/z/pAMAAMXQ74JTWHEJ/$_3.jpg
[18:16:36] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7561/15208336383_d3278eb644_b.jpg
[18:16:39] <zeeshan> can someone tell me
[18:16:50] <zeeshan> since in the main diagram 6 & 7 are shorted
[18:17:03] <zeeshan> that means its using spannung I (wiring diagram 1)
[18:17:04] <zeeshan> ?
[18:17:57] <Jymmm> zeeshan: Yes, 220VAC is 6/7 are shorted
[18:18:06] <Jymmm> if*
[18:18:10] <zeeshan> whats confusing is what is l1 and l2?
[18:18:16] <zeeshan> 5 has a "N" under it
[18:18:30] <Jymmm> 11 12 ?
[18:18:44] <zeeshan> mains line 1 and mains line 2
[18:18:48] <zeeshan> for 220v
[18:18:58] <Jymmm> ?
[18:19:05] <zeeshan> the only thing that makes sense is i hook power up to pin 4 and pin 5
[18:20:13] <Jymmm> if that cord coming in is mians power cable, looks like it's currently ired to 1 and 3
[18:20:43] <Jymmm> I only see two wires GRN and BRN
[18:20:58] <zeeshan> the top side is where the wires are coming from the connector
[18:21:00] <zeeshan> its a 6 pin connector
[18:21:14] <zeeshan> i mapped out 3 of the pins. they are the control side, the other 3 are unknown. trying to trace them now
[18:22:45] <Jymmm> I have no idea in the 6p connecotr has any corilation to the diagram pinout
[18:23:29] <Jymmm> I kust see 8 screw terminals
[18:23:32] <Jymmm> just*
[18:23:56] <bobo_> in europe isn't one side of 220voltcommon ?
[18:25:01] <bobo_> vers U.S. 220volt
[18:25:42] <Jymmm> spannung = voltage
[18:27:02] <furrywolf> if you want to gut a mechless radio, I have two semi-operational ones that can be had for the cost of shipping and my time to go to the post office.
[18:27:55] <bobo_> europe neutral =us common
[18:30:42] <bobo_> zeeshan what is ohm meter reading from term 5 to metal ?
[18:33:53] <bobo_> in europe 0 volt-------------220volt in U.S. 220 volt-----------0 volt ---------220volt , zero volt = neutral = common
[18:34:30] <kengu> hmm
[18:43:26] <bobo_> US. is realy 110----------------0-----------------110 ,but the meaning is --in U.S 220 is not between one Xfmr term(service xfmr)and common as it is in europe
[18:53:39] <zeeshan> its toasting in the garage
[18:53:43] <zeeshan> 21.6C
[18:53:51] <zeeshan> 71 f
[18:53:56] <zeeshan> bobo_: hi
[18:54:16] <zeeshan> bobo that makes sense
[18:54:20] <zeeshan> so L1 is 220v.
[18:54:24] <zeeshan> in europe.
[18:54:30] <kengu> zeeshan: yes
[18:54:39] <zeeshan> pin 5 to metal is nothing
[18:54:56] <zeeshan> pin 4 is L1. pin 5 is neutral
[18:55:05] <zeeshan> so that accounts for 5 of the pins on this 6 pin connector
[18:55:23] <zeeshan> the 6th pin on the connector goes to pin 8 on that diagram
[18:55:25] <zeeshan> im not sure why?
[18:55:54] <zeeshan> all you need is pin 4 and pin 5 to power this up..?
[18:58:39] <bobo_> Yea
[18:58:49] <zeeshan> whats pin 8's purpose though
[18:59:34] <kengu> used in 110v config?
[18:59:35] <bobo_> 8 and 4 are hooked together
[18:59:44] <zeeshan> yes through a switch
[18:59:50] <zeeshan> but i dont understand why they're sending pin 8
[18:59:52] <zeeshan> to the connector?
[19:00:00] <zeeshan> im gonna disconnect it :P
[19:00:07] <zeeshan> and short it to make it work in 110v config
[19:00:14] <bobo_> 8 is for remote switch ie. controller
[19:00:24] <zeeshan> OHHH
[19:00:26] <zeeshan> that makes sense now.
[19:00:38] <zeeshan> so with pin 4 connected to L1. ONLY DK switch will turn it on
[19:00:54] <zeeshan> you actually want to connect pin 8 to L1
[19:00:59] <zeeshan> (from a relay)
[19:02:03] <bobo_> maho-----lub has to work before motion
[19:02:15] <zeeshan> bobo_: mine is going to a relay right now
[19:02:19] <zeeshan> and mesa will switch it
[19:02:25] <zeeshan> im doing the logic inside linuxcnc
[19:05:25] <bobo_> also runs for fixed time at first turn on then every so offten but also dependent on amount of xais motion and also more often if small
[19:06:51] <bobo_> contiounios motion----------digging small block/rectangle
[19:08:08] <malcom2073> zeeshan: Got pics of the mill I got, they're uploaing now
[19:08:26] <malcom2073> I neglected to resize them because I'm a tool :/ lol
[19:08:56] <bobo_> i want to see two/also
[19:13:45] <furrywolf> three inline capacitors completed... the manual for my stepper drivers wants me to install a capacitor as close to the driver as possible... so I slit the zip cord, stripped a little section, wrapped it around the cap legs, and soldered. :)
[19:13:54] <furrywolf> never would fly in a commercial product...
[19:14:44] <bobo_> will in pack i stand
[19:15:41] <furrywolf> ?
[19:16:02] <bobo_> near india
[19:16:18] <furrywolf> ok, pakistan.
[19:17:10] <malcom2073> Here's the mil as it stands: http://mikesshop.net/mill/
[19:18:15] <furrywolf> pakistan has excellent food. :)
[19:18:24] <zeeshan> malcom2073: that rust! :P
[19:18:25] <zeeshan> must fix
[19:18:33] <zeeshan> looks nice though
[19:18:42] <malcom2073> zeeshan: I'm going to take it completly apart and clean the rust ouf of the whole thing
[19:18:45] <malcom2073> taking the knee off even
[19:18:47] <furrywolf> "This linear toroidal unregulated power supply is perfect for demanding motion control projects. With 60VDC/20A power handling, your large steppers or servos will always have clean, stable, un-switched power.
[19:18:49] <furrywolf> "
[19:19:13] <furrywolf> ... linear unregulated, eh? someone does not know what that word means, methinks. as to clean, stable, and unregulated...
[19:19:17] <zeeshan> ball screws are good :D
[19:19:37] <malcom2073> Indeed. It was run off EMC with an old ISA card years an years ago running the servos, so it shouldn't be hard to hook up to a mesa board nowadays
[19:19:38] <furrywolf> http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?products_id=460?osCsid=fa8cbdb65048893f46f7c5a2094a5d58 competence lacking.
[19:19:49] <malcom2073> I got the origonal Delta10 control box :-
[19:19:53] <malcom2073> :-D
[19:20:25] <zeeshan> http://mikesshop.net/mill/image043.jpg
[19:20:26] <zeeshan> what is that
[19:20:37] <bobo_> malcom looks great
[19:20:48] <malcom2073> The back of the spare servo that was sitting on the table
[19:21:06] <malcom2073> I believe it's identical to the three servos installed
[19:21:12] <zeeshan> that looks like heidenhain optical encoders
[19:21:22] <malcom2073> Also got a box of 16 assorted endmill/drill/collet holders
[19:21:35] <zeeshan> bobo
[19:21:37] <malcom2073> That fit the ISO30 spindle
[19:21:38] <zeeshan> im about to fire up the lubricator
[19:21:45] <zeeshan> if im not back in 20 min call 911
[19:21:46] <zeeshan> jk :P
[19:21:52] <malcom2073> lol
[19:22:01] <zeeshan> yea that looks iso30
[19:22:06] <furrywolf> do I really have to use glass fuses for the drivers, or can I get away with using 32V automotive blade fuses on 54V? heh
[19:22:06] <zeeshan> spindle looks in excellent condition
[19:22:07] <zeeshan> rust wise
[19:22:26] <zeeshan> furrywolf: lol
[19:22:29] <malcom2073> It does, it's fully retracted too, and rotates fairly easy with no *noticable* play
[19:22:33] <furrywolf> wouldn't surprise me if the "spare" servo is really the "replaced because it's broken" servo...
[19:22:38] <bobo_> photos needed of event horz
[19:22:39] <malcom2073> Probabl
[19:22:57] <zeeshan> malcom2073: why did they get rid of machine
[19:22:59] <zeeshan> what happened
[19:23:44] <furrywolf> do I even need separate fuses per driver? I'll be using 10A fuses, and the transformer is only rated for 15Aish... and will have an ac input fuse...
[19:24:00] <zeeshan> furrywolf: why are you fusing each driver?
[19:24:04] <zeeshan> they dont have internal fuses?
[19:24:14] <malcom2073> zeeshan: The delta10 electronics died, so the orig. owner hired the guy I bought it from to retrofit EMC (back in the day). He did, and the orig owner could never get the hang of it (he was a "wtf is a pc" kinda guy). So the guy I bought it from operated it for him for a while, but eventually the orig owner lost his shop, wife, sad story.
[19:24:26] <malcom2073> So he gave it to the guy I bought it from for really cheap, as partial payment for some services
[19:24:33] <zeeshan> malcom2073: ah
[19:24:36] <furrywolf> zeeshan: no
[19:24:43] <malcom2073> The guy I bought it from intended to upgrade to a newer linucnc with a mesa, and never got around to it
[19:24:43] <furrywolf> the manual says each one should get its own fuse..
[19:24:49] <zeeshan> furrywolf: doh
[19:24:53] <zeeshan> 54VDC?
[19:25:01] <furrywolf> 40VAC rectified and filtered
[19:25:45] <furrywolf> I guess I should head to ratshack and pick up a glass fuse holder and some fuses...
[19:25:52] <zeeshan> yea im sure those will be ok
[19:25:57] <zeeshan> just look at the ratring
[19:26:15] <zeeshan> if they arent rated for the voltage you're looking for, they will go kaboom during a fault
[19:26:41] <bobo_> malcom that mill can rotate the ram which i think is very good
[19:27:04] <furrywolf> s/will/might. :P
[19:27:31] <malcom2073> bobo_: Yes, the ram can rotate
[19:27:35] <furrywolf> I'm sure I have the right fuses in storage somewhere, but it's cheaper to buy new ones than my time to look for the ones I have... I wish I had a shop. :(
[19:27:53] <malcom2073> Gonna yank the whole ram off before I move it
[19:28:36] <bobo_> also ram can move in / out --another big plus
[19:29:12] <malcom2073> Yeah, I saw that, makes it easier to work on large pieces
[19:29:23] <malcom2073> Plus, you can get up to 200mm ram height spacer to make it taller iirc
[19:30:08] <bobo_> dont let it tip over with ram out
[19:30:43] <bobo_> extended out
[19:30:45] <malcom2073> Lol yeah
[19:32:44] <furrywolf> bbl, radio shack.
[19:33:58] <bobo_> 30 taper is better than R8 but not as available on used market
[19:34:22] <malcom2073> NMTB30 fits them
[19:34:32] <malcom2073> They're cheap enough on ebay, and I got a pile of them with it
[19:36:04] <bobo_> quick switch /kwick switch is nice but very expensive
[19:37:51] <s1dev> does anyone have any suggestions on how much to undersize the bore for pressing in a bushing?
[19:38:02] <s1dev> (bore is .750")
[19:39:12] <bobo_> usualy oversize bushing is better
[19:40:32] <bobo_> ie . measur bore and size o.d. of bushing for press fit
[19:41:41] <bobo_> o.d. easer to work down to size needed
[19:42:33] <bobo_> file/sand O.D.
[19:44:30] <bobo_> steel hole brass short bushing around 1 to 2 thow
[19:46:58] <bobo_> for hole of 1.75 inch or less
[19:57:19] <bobo_> zeeshan: 911 is on the way
[19:58:03] <bobo_> eta about sun up
[20:06:49] <bobo_> *bobo thinks zeeshan walked thru the event horizion
[21:11:44] <zeeshan> lol
[21:11:48] <zeeshan> bobo it worked.
[21:12:05] <zeeshan> so yea dk switch needs its own non-relayed power
[21:13:24] <zeeshan> https://pdf.yt/d/BFCdKhm0xVeG8823
[21:13:29] <zeeshan> you can see circuit diagram here
[21:15:56] <zeeshan> http://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8637/15640074813_9fdd581803_b.jpg
[21:16:14] <zeeshan> out of all my limit switches, one is a proxmitiy switch
[21:16:14] <zeeshan> hmmm
[21:16:37] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7464/16072613900_1eb1985853_b.jpg
[21:17:14] <Jymmm> thats sick man!
[21:18:29] <zeeshan> looks like top wire is brown. middle is black..
[21:19:01] <zeeshan> how do you determine if this is a npn or pnp sensor :/
[21:31:10] <zeeshan> pcw_home: awake? :D
[21:43:20] <bobo_> zeeshan what is that proxmity switch for ?
[21:43:29] <zeeshan> x axis limt
[21:43:35] <zeeshan> slash home
[21:43:44] <bobo_> ok
[21:43:53] <zeeshan> i dont think i can hook this up directly to 7i77
[21:43:55] <zeeshan> cause its pnp
[21:44:01] <zeeshan> mesa needs npn
[21:44:07] <zeeshan> ill need to do some pull up resistor stuff..
[21:45:11] <furrywolf> http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=912;sa=showPosts some people really, really should not wire their own power supplies.
[21:48:36] <zeeshan> almsot done wiring..
[21:48:40] <zeeshan> minus the damn x axis sensor :P
[21:48:51] <zeeshan> cant wait to try this out!
[21:49:36] <furrywolf> I have no idea when/if I'm adding switches... looks like a pain. the machine obviously wasn't meant for them.
[21:49:51] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you can do it :P
[21:50:00] <zeeshan> doouble sided tape!
[21:50:00] <zeeshan> lol
[21:50:03] <furrywolf> I know I can, I just don't know if I want to. :P
[21:50:13] <zeeshan> i ran the lathe without sensors for a while
[21:50:21] <zeeshan> but man , homing on a lathe is so nice to have
[21:50:25] <zeeshan> so i added em
[21:51:07] <furrywolf> are they accurate enough to turn a part to diameter?
[21:51:28] <zeeshan> yes
[21:51:33] <zeeshan> just regular limit switches
[21:51:46] <zeeshan> i think i made a video of it
[21:52:51] <bobo_> zeeshan I was thinking on the lub systems plastic tubes. to see if or which ones are not flowing ? trying to add say red air condition dye
[21:53:12] <zeeshan> bobo you can kinda see it
[21:53:15] <zeeshan> with the air bubbles moving :P
[21:53:20] <zeeshan> but red dye would work
[21:54:11] <bobo_> but do not want to eat up the seals or tercite
[21:54:37] <zeeshan> im sure they make a proper dye for this purpose
[21:55:08] <furrywolf> ATF?
[21:56:41] <bobo_> so you have lub oil dripping onto machine base and out the two base holes -----as of now?
[21:57:07] <zeeshan> bobo_: i have the main line disconnected
[21:57:11] <zeeshan> fluid line
[21:57:13] <pcw_home> zeeshan: 7I77 inputs want PNP proxes
[21:57:13] <zeeshan> i can see it flowing
[21:57:20] <zeeshan> pcw_home: oh.
[21:57:26] <zeeshan> so this should be plug and play
[21:57:36] <zeeshan> now i remember, the encoder side was npn.
[21:57:51] <pcw_home> if it sources ~24V when on, yess
[22:00:32] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7472/16258489741_f522a2516e_b.jpg
[22:00:42] <zeeshan> sorry for the crappy diagram
[22:01:00] <zeeshan> so the black wire will go to 7i77?
[22:01:03] <zeeshan> input
[22:01:24] <pcw_home> yes
[22:01:36] <zeeshan> thanks a lot!
[22:02:46] <Jymmm> "cut the red wire... 5... no the green wire... 4... I mena yellow... 3... "
[22:02:53] <zeeshan> lol
[22:03:28] <Jymmm> wanna know the funny thing?
[22:04:00] <zeeshan> yes? :D
[22:04:00] <Jymmm> If there's a red Light, they all looks the same =)
[22:05:26] <Jymmm> I have a multi colored flashlight, it's interesting what you see under different color light.
[22:05:51] <Jymmm> ^visible
[22:05:55] <Jymmm> ^visible light
[22:06:12] <XXCoder> yeah
[22:06:26] <Jymmm> some things competely disappear, othe rthings predominantly stand out "glowing"
[22:07:58] <Jymmm> I love this flashlight, but it's just too unique a thing to carry around.
[22:08:32] <Jymmm> If you come across one, pick it up.
[22:09:13] <SpeedEvil> I want a proper laserpointer.
[22:09:24] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: no you don't
[22:09:25] <SpeedEvil> 1AA cell, 100nm-100um, 0-1000W.
[22:09:56] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: 0.00000001nS
[22:10:23] <Jymmm> that would be firing duration =)
[22:10:46] <SpeedEvil> Today you can get 3W visible lasers in that form factor
[22:11:01] <Jymmm> and?
[22:11:08] <SpeedEvil> And yes - I don't expect theabove to arrive.
[22:11:15] <SpeedEvil> I want many things that are unlikely
[22:11:16] <XXCoder> 1 mW laser ;)
[22:11:19] <XXCoder> and shark for it
[22:11:28] <Jymmm> XXCoder: hang on...
[22:11:29] <SpeedEvil> Normal health, for one.
[22:12:07] <Jymmm> XXCoder: http://i48.tinypic.com/ea096f.jpg
[22:12:25] <XXCoder> nixe
[22:12:28] <XXCoder> *nice
[22:12:40] <Jymmm> =)
[22:13:08] <Jymmm> XXCoder: So now you have your 1MW laser with shark, what are you going to do now Pinky?
[22:13:49] <XXCoder> take over the world of course, brainy!
[22:14:10] <Jymmm> GOOD ANSWER!!! GOOD ANSWER <audiance applause>
[22:14:27] <Jymmm> XXCoder: NARF!!!
[22:14:34] <XXCoder> lol
[22:14:50] <XXCoder> check this out though http://www.cracked.com/article_20382_5-fan-theories-about-cartoons-that-will-ruin-your-childhood_p2.html
[22:17:18] <furrywolf> a) those greatly postdate my childhood, and b) who the hell cares?
[22:19:29] <furrywolf> I can't imagine a theory about a cartoon affecting anyone's childhood, or memories thereof.
[22:20:15] <XXCoder> yeah its all in fun lol
[22:22:25] <furrywolf> also, the site uses lazyloading, which is enough of a reason to ignore all future links to it, as if the content weren't enough...
[22:22:43] <XXCoder> lazyloading?
[22:23:37] <furrywolf> not loading stuff until you scroll to it.
[22:23:48] <furrywolf> which, on a slow connection, really means "long after you'd have wanted to be past it".
[22:24:21] <XXCoder> ahh yeah I have decent connection and I still hate it
[22:24:27] <XXCoder> amazon is very very bad on it
[22:24:38] <XXCoder> stuff keep moving around as I try to click
[22:24:43] <XXCoder> I hate i
[22:24:45] <XXCoder> it
[22:24:56] <furrywolf> it could also mean "we know our articles are so worthless that most people will do something else after the first paragraph, so we'll save the bandwidth of the rest of the article."
[22:25:27] <SpeedEvil> Well - the obvious clickbait title should be the first clue
[22:26:11] <XXCoder> cracked is humor site
[22:26:28] <XXCoder> always 3 or 4 new articles a day
[22:27:24] <furrywolf> 0 of which are interesting?
[22:27:41] <XXCoder> actually in least one good one everyday
[22:28:01] <furrywolf> example? :P
[22:28:19] <XXCoder> the crazy fan theories one I linked to is pretty good but hold on
[22:28:43] * furrywolf didn't find it good
[22:29:04] <XXCoder> they also host photoshopping fun often and winner gets money. for example http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_1268_how-world-would-look-without-guns/
[22:29:12] <XXCoder> no guns world one is pretty good funny lol
[22:30:35] <furrywolf> ... we have different ideas of what a good article is.
[22:31:47] <furrywolf> see, with a title like that, it could be something interesting, like an analysis of how wars and crime might differ...
[22:32:06] <XXCoder> cracked is a humor site
[22:32:47] <furrywolf> then it could be a satirical article.
[22:32:53] <XXCoder> they do present history sometimes in funny way http://www.cracked.com/humor-history.html
[22:33:51] <furrywolf> I think we also have different senses of humor.
[22:36:06] <furrywolf> also, all those articles seem to have idiotic list formats for no useful reason.
[22:36:20] <XXCoder> its just how cracked work
[22:36:43] <XXCoder> cracked actually is pretty old
[22:36:51] <XXCoder> they just adopted to internet
[22:38:35] <XXCoder> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracked.com
[22:39:22] <furrywolf> yes, I've heard of them before... and never saw any reason to go there.
[22:39:25] <furrywolf> and I still don't.
[22:39:44] <XXCoder> yeah im not worried :)
[22:39:52] <XXCoder> lazyloading is annoying though
[22:41:04] * furrywolf finds the register much funnier, and they're a real news site.
[22:41:05] <XXCoder> researching on disable lazy load
[22:41:14] <XXCoder> ahhyeah register
[22:41:17] <XXCoder> love that site
[22:42:55] <XXCoder> BOFH is fun
[22:44:50] <furrywolf> the funniest thing I've read lately is the book Ignition.
[22:46:04] <furrywolf> yes, it is possible to make a text on rocket fuels humorous. :P
[22:46:21] <XXCoder> "The last half of your senior year of high school is supposed to be easy. Jes Anderson was looking forward to a relaxing final semester, followed by a lazy summer before heading off to college. Instead, she's been having nightmares of fire and brimstone, while her best friend Amanda is harassing her to find a boyfriend. As if that weren't annoying enough, a group of students from a rival town is temporarily transferred to Jes' high
[22:46:21] <XXCoder> school. Despite herself, she can't help but take an interest in Seth Thomas. Jes can tell there is something unusual about him. But what exactly? He's handsome and charming on the surface but Jes can't quite figure out if she likes him or hates his guts. And he seems to be hiding something. So much for an easy semester."
[22:46:33] <XXCoder> Ignition trilogy book 1 lol
[22:47:01] <XXCoder> You meant Ignition!?
[22:47:08] <furrywolf> no
[22:47:27] <furrywolf> no ? :P
[22:47:28] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Ignition-informal-history-liquid-propellants/dp/0813507251
[22:47:46] <XXCoder> the ? is not title but my question mark lol
[22:47:48] <furrywolf> yes, that one
[22:48:10] <XXCoder> it gets odd when title itself has stuff like ? ! so on
[22:48:26] <XXCoder> cheap at $3,115
[22:50:01] <XXCoder> found pdf
[22:50:30] <XXCoder> thanks, will read it later
[22:51:27] <furrywolf> yeah, I read the pdf too.
[22:51:41] <furrywolf> $3115? lol
[22:51:45] <XXCoder> physical copy must be rare
[22:52:14] <furrywolf> methinks someone missed a decimal point.
[22:52:19] <XXCoder> not so
[22:52:25] <XXCoder> its cheap compared with other book
[22:52:30] <furrywolf> $31.15 would be a much more reasonable price.
[22:52:31] <XXCoder> that ones over 7k
[22:53:30] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ignition-An-Informal-History-of-Liquid-Rocket-Propellants-by-John-D-Clark-/221619601860?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item33998ec1c4
[22:53:37] <furrywolf> last one on ebay sold for $10. :P
[22:54:19] <XXCoder> yeah no idea why prices so insane on amazon. someone probably typo 7k one and other went for less than half price of 3,115 lol
[22:54:27] <furrywolf> lol
[22:56:53] <furrywolf> http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf
[22:56:54] <furrywolf> $0
[22:57:06] <XXCoder> thats where I downloaded it lol
[22:57:41] <furrywolf> I didn't expect what sounded like a chemistry textbook to be funny.
[22:58:16] <furrywolf> having passed at least basic chemistry is required to understand much of the non-funny parts, however.
[23:00:11] <furrywolf> to quote a review, "this book was far more interesting and enjoyable than a book about liquid rocket propellants has any right to be."
[23:00:23] <XXCoder> yah saw that lol
[23:01:27] <furrywolf> I still want to design a completely different rocket... but that takes time and money. I want to make external energy supply actually work - carrying only reaction mass onboard.
[23:01:42] <furrywolf> beam rider prototypes always seem to work, then they always vanish.
[23:03:32] <furrywolf> laser thermal, microwave thermal, or a combination thereof...
[23:06:32] <XXCoder> theres one reactionless drive thats probably bullshit
[23:06:50] <XXCoder> chinese just validifed, so either its real or they got fooled
[23:07:12] <XXCoder> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive
[23:08:09] <XXCoder> 2500W just for 720mN
[23:08:17] <furrywolf> I'll wait for more verification... as I remember, it's just the same type of things that didn't work with spinning gyroscopes and crap, but with electrons.
[23:08:58] <furrywolf> I suspect they'll eventually find it's just pushing off the earth's magnetic field or such.
[23:09:10] <XXCoder> possibly
[23:09:48] <furrywolf> or it's propelling the air around it
[23:09:49] <furrywolf> or etc
[23:10:21] <XXCoder> world be strange if idea was wrong in unexpected way
[23:10:31] <XXCoder> for example if it actually works by disorting space around it
[23:10:40] <furrywolf> of course, it'd be great if it actually worked.
[23:11:11] <furrywolf> however, no matter how great its working may be, I'll wait until there's substantial confirmation of that fact.
[23:11:22] <XXCoder> same
[23:11:37] <XXCoder> even with low power it would be very fast long term
[23:11:52] <XXCoder> because as long as its making power it can constantly fire
[23:12:05] <XXCoder> even xenon ion engine can't run tht long
[23:12:58] <furrywolf> it would have an infinite specific impulse, which is something I automatically don't like. :P
[23:13:13] <XXCoder> as long as it has power
[23:14:20] <furrywolf> if it works, the laws of physics will require updating. that's, of course, not impossible, but should be carefully demonstrated first.
[23:15:07] <XXCoder> I recall it got something to do with light having its own frame of reference so its "outside" the "engine" tank
[23:16:04] <furrywolf> a good series of tests might include operating it in a hard vacuum, flipping it 180 degrees and testing again, replacing it with a dummy load and testing again, etc.
[23:16:31] <XXCoder> or just two engines pointed opposite directions connected by pole sideways
[23:16:35] <XXCoder> if it spins it works
[23:17:00] <furrywolf> for example, the power wires feeding it may be generating magnetic fields, and interacting with the test apperatus or the earth's field.
[23:17:32] <XXCoder> it'll have to travel out some distance
[23:17:42] <XXCoder> so earth magnet field appoch zerp
[23:17:44] <XXCoder> zero
[23:17:56] <furrywolf> or just use enough carefully designed tests to detect that.
[23:18:05] <XXCoder> indeed
[23:18:28] <furrywolf> deep space is obviously the real test, but would require demonstrating first.
[23:18:53] <furrywolf> testing it aligned in various directions with the earth's field should help see if that's what it's doing.
[23:19:39] <XXCoder> can always just put cluster of test stuff on xenon ion drive, after it uses up all xenon eject it then test reactionless drive. if it works great! if it does not well it'll still useful and has power source
[23:19:41] <furrywolf> if its peak thrust is in one direction, and it's nil 90 degrees from that direction, you can be pretty sure it's just an expensive electromagnet. :)
[23:19:56] <XXCoder> thats great idea yeah
[23:20:04] <furrywolf> unfortunately, "just" implies it's easy, and doesn't account for the costs and risks of space launches. heh.
[23:20:13] <XXCoder> always unfortunately
[23:20:38] <XXCoder> too bad we cant make wormholes. even tiny ones with special equipment both ends
[23:21:20] <XXCoder> because even if machine is heavy once its in orbit it has unlimited fuel because well wormhole can pump in more fuel lol
[23:21:58] <furrywolf> yeah, that's still well within the realm of scifi rather than science.
[23:22:10] <XXCoder> very theorical still
[23:22:10] <furrywolf> if the emdrive works, there will be major changes to physics as we know it. I just don't know if it works yet. :P
[23:22:17] <XXCoder> not major actually
[23:22:41] <XXCoder> just bit tweaks and discovery of more facets
[23:22:46] <SpeedEvil> The 'NASA;'test was ridiculously flawed.
[23:23:07] <SpeedEvil> They spend 2/3 of the paper explaining their exquistitely complex vacuum chamber setup
[23:23:25] <furrywolf> the one they didn't bother actually pumping down? :P
[23:23:31] <SpeedEvil> And there are a couple of sentances saying 'but we couldn't find a vacuum rated amplifier, so we diddn't use it'
[23:23:32] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:23:52] <XXCoder> oh brother
[23:23:53] <SpeedEvil> I mean - fill it with helium, or pump down to half
[23:24:06] <SpeedEvil> Even if you can't find an actual vacuum rated amp.
[23:24:10] <XXCoder> well
[23:24:20] <XXCoder> just buy one? unless its insanely expensive?
[23:24:31] <SpeedEvil> Though it should take anyone with a clue 20 minutes to make a vacuum amp with stuff from the grocery store
[23:24:52] <XXCoder> NASA? Clue? they lost it some decades ago.
[23:25:00] <XXCoder> they was amazing during moon landing. now pfft
[23:25:16] <SpeedEvil> SpaceX is doing really, really cool things.
[23:25:30] <furrywolf> given as we're launched plenty of high-power RF amps into space (probably fifty times more of them than we've launched satellites!), they're obviously not a rare commodity.
[23:25:31] <SpeedEvil> On the path to 100 ton payload to mars.
[23:25:31] <roycroft> the mars rovers have been pretty darn impressive
[23:25:42] <XXCoder> it's because they know space (and life in general) is risk
[23:26:00] <XXCoder> roy there is that
[23:26:13] <furrywolf> yeah, opportunity is STILL going...
[23:26:17] <XXCoder> indeed
[23:26:23] <SpeedEvil> The specified criteriafor 'man rating' - makes it for astronauts that fly 12 times a year - they are safer than some jobs in the US market.
[23:26:31] <SpeedEvil> And regrettably - not lumberjacks.
[23:26:35] <SpeedEvil> Librarians.
[23:26:39] <SpeedEvil> yes - really.
[23:26:58] <XXCoder> ow
[23:27:08] <furrywolf> ... since when did librarians have an abnormally high death rate?
[23:27:18] <furrywolf> from what, dropping books on their heads?
[23:27:20] <SpeedEvil> (lookin gat beurau of labour statistics for death at work of librarians
[23:27:46] <roycroft> logging would be a safe occupation if loggers weren't doing it
[23:27:56] <furrywolf> if anything, I suspect it's an anamoly due to the average age and health of librarians vs other professions.
[23:28:29] <SpeedEvil> No, librarian is pretty much one of the safest professions
[23:28:32] <furrywolf> librarians are often older and in poor shape, and like working until they drop dead instead of retiring.
[23:29:00] * SpeedEvil sighs at low-grade food poisoning.
[23:29:07] <furrywolf> we just had someone killed at the local lumber mill, speaking of lumberjack death rates.
[23:29:13] <SpeedEvil> I'mnot really feeling like puking.
[23:29:18] <SpeedEvil> But I'm kinda wishing I was.
[23:29:51] <furrywolf> ... except it wasn't actually an employee of the mill. it was an osha-hired contracted safety inspector, who when inspecting a manlift, ran it into the big powerlines to the nearby power plant.
[23:30:04] <SpeedEvil> oops
[23:30:04] <XXCoder> speed better than actual sick like me
[23:30:14] <XXCoder> furr what the hell
[23:30:26] <XXCoder> its like that gun instuctor who shot himself
[23:30:31] <furrywolf> a couple fingers down your throat will fix that nicely. :P
[23:30:35] <XXCoder> while teaching class
[23:30:39] <furrywolf> xxcoder: yep
[23:30:41] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: yeah - it's not quite that bad
[23:31:45] <furrywolf> you can see how it happened... since it was an osha person with no knowledge of the plant, they didn't know where the hazards were, and since they do the same tests all day, didn't do a proper pre-test hazard analysis...
[23:31:58] <furrywolf> complacency combined with unfamiliarity.
[23:32:07] <XXCoder> too bad
[23:32:11] <furrywolf> ... the kind of things safety people tell you not to do. heh.
[23:33:09] <furrywolf> apparantly one of the mill employees even suggested he do the tests somewhere else, just saying there was a lot of stuff around, but not explicitly pointing out the power lines. inspector wanted to save time and not drive it around...
[23:33:23] <XXCoder> fun start at 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng0891334oo
[23:35:24] <XXCoder> jeez
[23:38:13] <furrywolf> and so, his final task as safety inspector, was giving a very good lesson on why you identify hazards before operating, not after.
[23:41:13] <furrywolf> other than the low efficiency, what keeps the emdrive from being a perpetual motion machine?
[23:41:37] <furrywolf> he claims new designs will have much higher efficiency, on the order of several newtons per watt.
[23:42:13] <furrywolf> by some very rough mental figuring, if it works, it's also a free energy device.
[23:42:33] <furrywolf> which immediately places it into another category of nonfunctioning crackpot devices.
[23:44:15] <XXCoder> well if it equals how much energy it takes to move then no
[23:44:31] <XXCoder> if it somehow takes less energy than theorical, then yes
[23:44:46] <XXCoder> and less well reality its always less due to losses like heat
[23:44:50] <XXCoder> noise so on
[23:48:16] <furrywolf> I have a spare microwave oven and a milling machine... but no vacuum chamber. oh well.
[23:48:31] <XXCoder> can always build one
[23:48:39] <XXCoder> you got mill
[23:48:44] <Jymmm> 8" pvc pipe with screw caps
[23:49:19] <XXCoder> Jymmm: http://hackaday.io/project/1023-low-cost-co2-laser-build
[23:49:30] <XXCoder> laser using pvc lol
[23:49:55] <furrywolf> micronewton torsion balances are way too much work. putting it on a float in a draft-tight box with water in the bottom is much easier. :P
[23:50:03] <Jymmm> It's possible, but the gasses will leak quickly
[23:51:51] <furrywolf> could also be doing something stupid like knocking ions out of the stainless... the thrust produced is so small that even very tiny side-effects could account for it.
[23:52:01] <furrywolf> or maybe he invented a new x-ray generator
[23:53:45] <furrywolf> does "quantum vacuum plasma" sound way too much like "aether" to anyone but me?
[23:53:55] <XXCoder> maybe heh
[23:54:34] <furrywolf> let's invent an undetectable fluid to explain what we're acting on!
[23:55:27] <XXCoder> I wish guy there explained more on how he built that laser thing
[23:55:31] <XXCoder> I do want to try it
[23:56:56] <furrywolf> doesn't sam's laser faq have a whole section on diy lasers?
[23:57:30] <XXCoder> http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm ?
[23:57:55] <furrywolf> yes
[23:58:23] <furrywolf> something you should read if you have any interest in homebrew lasers. if I remember right, it even has a whole section on how to build a co2 laser...
[23:59:34] <furrywolf> http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasercc2.htm#cc2toc there you go