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[00:43:17] <zeeshan> anyone know what the difference between a ul508 and ul98 disconnect switch is
[00:43:20] <zeeshan> the 98 is huge
[00:43:23] <zeeshan> 508 is compact.
[00:43:42] <zeeshan> the kA rating as a result is much less for the 508
[00:43:57] <zeeshan> i'm not sure what to select for the cnc controller disconnect..
[02:03:47] <Deejay> moin
[07:07:11] <jthornton> hmm a portion of the arc has the same IJK offset so that part is easy
[07:12:38] <jdh> that's what I was thinking.
[07:22:42] <jthornton> hmm the X end point is easy and the Z end point appears to be right angle triangle from the Z start point to the intersection of the arc
[07:24:29] <jthornton> hmm I only know side a and angle C so more study is needed
[07:39:27] * jthornton was looking at the wrong triangle...
[08:22:13] * jthornton dunno why I was making the calculation of the radius so complicated when it is the sq rt of a2 + b2
[08:39:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.itworld.com/article/2861675/cyberattack-on-german-steel-factory-causes-massive-damage.html
[08:39:58] <SpeedEvil> - they couldn't shut down properly, and ended up with a lot of molten steelinthe wrong place. Ooops
[08:43:43] <ssi> eep
[09:24:58] <JT-Shop> quite the challenge to find a point on an arc when both I and K are used...
[09:25:56] <ssi> JT's becoming our geometry savant
[09:26:46] <JT-Shop> lol
[09:42:20] <JT-Shop> anyone have a clue how to solve for Z? in this example:
http://imagebin.ca/v/1lPcT6XoSWtk
[09:43:28] <SpeedEvil> you mean you want to vary K, and get I out?
[09:50:26] <jthornton> I and K are fixed, I know Xs Zs and Xf and Zf and Zo I need to find Z?
[09:50:53] <jthornton> I have calculated the radius of the arc from I and K
[09:50:59] <Tom_itx> you need a bit more to solve the 2nd triangle
[09:51:04] <jthornton> so that is known too
[09:51:22] <jthornton> yea, that's where I'm stuck
[09:51:47] <Tom_itx> did you look in the math of the machinist's handbook?
[09:52:16] <jthornton> those pages are so dog eared from looking at them it ain't funny
[09:52:47] <jthornton> I know it will be easy "once I know how"
[09:55:31] <Tom_itx> http://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/circle-equations.html
[09:56:11] <furrywolf> playing more with latency test... no matter what I do, the highest jitter I can get is ~11us... except for when I first try playing a youtube video. the instant the video starts there's a spike to 25-40us. I'm guessing this is onboard video initializing something? and I'm hoping I can ignore it, as long as I don't plan on starting youtube videos while milling? :)
[09:59:36] <Tom_itx> jthornton, why can't you solve it with one triangle?
[10:00:32] <Tom_itx> you can solve it...
[10:01:25] <Tom_itx> you know K, you know center-X0Z distance you know 90 deg triangle
[10:01:48] <Tom_itx> center X0Z is the same as R
[10:03:47] <Tom_itx> solve the base of the K triangle and subtract it from R
[10:04:04] <Tom_itx> and you will have 2 sides of the other one
[10:05:11] <Tom_itx> http://www.mathopenref.com/coordpointdisttrig.html
[10:07:07] <furrywolf> it's entirely repeatable... the spike is the instant the first frame of the video appears.
[10:07:23] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: html5 or flash?
[10:08:10] <furrywolf> html5
[10:08:41] <furrywolf> well, unless flash is included with the linuxcnc iso... I didn't check... but I sure hope not!
[10:09:00] <SpeedEvil> ah
[10:09:13] <furrywolf> yes, html5
[10:09:34] <SpeedEvil> So - avoid cat videos when CNCing
[10:09:53] <furrywolf> yeah, that's my plan. especially since there's no internet where the mill is.
[10:10:24] <furrywolf> glxgears and other graphics tasks don't cause a problem, it's only initializing videos.
[10:10:55] <SpeedEvil> Even ~40us is ~12ksteps/s safely orso
[10:10:57] <furrywolf> otherwise after an hour of testing I haven't found anything else that gets it over 11us... 3d, wireless, power management, etc all work fine.
[10:11:21] <SpeedEvil> err
[10:11:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[10:11:39] <SpeedEvil> And at 400steps/s that's still 1800RPM
[10:11:49] <SpeedEvil> /rev
[10:12:04] <furrywolf> when using doublestep, it generates both halves of the pulse during a single base thread run, right?
[10:12:13] <SpeedEvil> Unsure
[10:13:29] <furrywolf> and, related to that, with only a 1us dirhold for my drivers, does it gurantee that in a single base thread run too?
[10:13:31] <furrywolf> hrmm
[10:20:52] <CaptHindsight> video drivers, X and browsers now access hardware directly
[10:21:17] <furrywolf> yes.
[10:21:49] <CaptHindsight> and it's too late to get those devs to stop doing so
[10:21:55] <furrywolf> lol
[10:23:13] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, I'm not following you
[10:24:30] <furrywolf> well, since it sounds like this system is indeed suitable for running my machine, next step is to actually install rather than run livecd...
[10:25:10] <furrywolf> ouch! ok, apparantly switching to battery generates substantial spikes sometimes too.
[10:26:19] <furrywolf> wow. running off battery does... weird things. really weird things.
[10:26:52] <furrywolf> it runs FASTER. the 25us base thread runs every 9us off battery. wtf?
[10:27:15] <furrywolf> as soon as I plug the adapter back in, it goes back to 25us...
[10:27:20] <pcw_home> Clock Speed switching is often done when running off batteries
[10:27:56] <pcw_home> so all speed calculations are bithash
[10:28:19] <furrywolf> yeah, I know... but I'd expect it to run slower, not faster. :)
[10:28:45] <furrywolf> I'm not too worried, since if I lose AC I'll be losing spindle/axis/etc too, and losing steps will be a non-issue...
[10:28:59] <pcw_home> Might be running slower...
[10:29:08] <furrywolf> heh, on a side note, 9us base thread makes videos slow down to about 2fps. :)
[10:29:20] <pcw_home> _all_ speed calculations are bithash
[10:29:57] <CaptHindsight> you don't want your cpu cores changing speeds
[10:30:07] <CaptHindsight> so you'll have to fix that
[10:31:02] <furrywolf> not sure how... is the kernel doing it, or bios/
[10:31:04] <furrywolf> ?
[10:31:25] <furrywolf> the bios has roughly no options whatsoever.
[10:31:41] <pcw_home> There are often windows utilities to adjust power saving utilities, may or may not be Linux equivs
[10:31:46] <furrywolf> but, as I said, if it only does it on ac power loss, the mill is stopping then anyway.
[10:34:38] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, I changed the drawing a bit
http://imagebin.ca/v/1lPsPaRtLxDk
[10:36:47] <PetefromTn_> JT-Shop Whatcha workin' on ?
[10:37:24] <JT-Shop> lathe G code generator, you feed it the profile and few things and it spits out the roughing and finishing G code
[10:37:36] <PetefromTn_> Sweet
[10:37:36] <JT-Shop> trying to find the Z? in the image
[10:38:35] <JT-Shop> with only an I offset it is dead simple, when you add a K offset it shifts the center of the arc
[10:42:01] <furrywolf> hrmm, I guess I don't understand what those offsets mean enough to know what you're doing.
[10:42:47] <furrywolf> so you're trying to get the Z position given the X position, of an arc of some form?
[10:43:22] <furrywolf> do these offsets affect the shape of the arc, or can they just be subtracted?
[10:43:52] <furrywolf> this is standard gcode arcs, right?
[10:44:00] <PetefromTn_> is this going to be added to that lathe conversational setup you use?
[10:44:10] <JT-Shop> the I and K offsets describe the center of the arc
[10:44:30] <JT-Shop> yes it is a G code arc
[10:45:06] <JT-Shop> I need to find the point on the arc where X Offset intersects the arc
[10:45:12] <furrywolf> so why can't they just be subtracted, if they only affect the center? or, since you seem to be trying to find the distance along an arc, do they cancel out?
[10:45:18] <JT-Shop> this is my Z postion to rough to
[10:45:52] <JT-Shop> subtract what?
[10:46:30] * furrywolf re-rtfms on arcs, having not done any gcode in ~5 years
[10:46:50] <JT-Shop> this is geometry not g code
[10:47:40] <JT-Shop> if I can solve the short side of the right most triangle I have my answer to Z?
[10:50:20] <Tom_itx> i think so
[10:51:22] <furrywolf> looks like you only know one side to me...
[10:52:20] <JT-Shop> yea, one side and 90
[10:52:22] <Tom_itx> but you changed the example
[10:52:34] <JT-Shop> yes to simplify it I hope
[10:52:36] <Tom_itx> which is more like the 2nd link i posted
[10:52:39] <furrywolf> shouldn't the triangle be back to the center point? I know the sin-1 (or is it cos-1) will give you the angle given the z position, then the cos/sin will give you the x...
[10:52:42] <furrywolf> but you should be able to do it with triangles instead of inverse trig.
[10:53:08] <furrywolf> swap z and x, forgot which way you were going.
[10:54:20] <JT-Shop> if I go back to the center I don't know the angle only the 2 sides which are equal to R
[10:54:39] <Tom_itx> and K
[10:55:58] <furrywolf> something like sin(cos-1((x+i)/r))*r+k
[10:56:25] <furrywolf> -k
[10:57:22] <JT-Shop> which x?
[10:57:58] <furrywolf> my trig is rusty too... last time I had a problem like this it was a surface approximated with a zillion polys, requiring a 3d tree structure to effeciently figure out which one of them it was intersecting... but that was years ago too.
[10:58:17] <furrywolf> the one labeled as x offset on your diagram
[10:58:22] <JT-Shop> my trig is freshly unknown
[10:58:43] <JT-Shop> let me give that a whirl
[10:59:09] <furrywolf> I may well have signs wrong or other problems... I just typed something out, not actually tried it. :)
[10:59:51] <JT-Shop> I know the answer from the cad so I can check the result is == .30056
[11:00:33] <furrywolf> this is pissing me off... I used to be able to do stuff like this without even needing to think, but that was a long time ago...
[11:00:39] * furrywolf hates having a useless brain
[11:01:21] <furrywolf> I did this in 3d using vectors, and I can't for the life of me remember even a single step.
[11:03:18] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: It's called getting old:p
[11:03:44] <furrywolf> is that way my back hurts and I can't lift with my right knee, too? :P
[11:12:14] * furrywolf should fire up the lathe to make some suggestive aluminum toys just to scare LeelooMinai off
[11:12:47] <LeelooMinai> With the lathe or toys? :)
[11:13:37] <furrywolf> with the toys. I know how fond you are of them. :P
[11:15:16] <LeelooMinai> It seems not all of your brain gets old at the same rate...
[11:15:17] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Stainless steel is much more saleable.
[11:16:11] <furrywolf> lol
[11:16:19] <furrywolf> I'm not trying to sell them, just annoy leeloo.
[11:18:35] <furrywolf> first step, however, is actually installing linuxcnc rather than running it off the usb key... seems like this system should be suitable, as long as I avoid certain things while it's running.
[11:20:56] <furrywolf> right now I only have one stepper wired, and it's just with test wiring...
[11:22:49] <furrywolf> manually generating steps resulted in severe oddities, but I'm hoping they go away with a pc driving it instead of a switch.
[11:29:22] <SpeedEvil> You know about switchbounce?
[11:30:13] <XXCoder1> furrywolf: lol making stuff just to annoy others
[11:30:51] <furrywolf> speedevil: I tossed a 10uf capacitor on the driver input...
[11:31:37] <furrywolf> it'd work fine 99% of the time, but occasionally the motor would suddenly jump a very large amount (a quarter turn once) in a random direction... I'm hoping it was just my crappy step input annoying the driver.
[11:34:00] <furrywolf> 8A/phase at 40V does some impressive jumping. :)
[11:35:00] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:35:50] <furrywolf> hrmm. bug in the debian graphical installer partman. even if you tab to the continue button on the bottom of the screen, space and enter both act on the currently selected item in the partition list.
[11:37:24] <furrywolf> I'm not sure which supply I'll use when I have it more built... I have a choice of 54V @ 25A switcher, or 60V @ 15A unregulated.
[11:38:07] <furrywolf> I'm tempted to go with the unregulated and save my nice switchers for something that cares.
[11:38:31] <XXCoder1> in least protect from peaks though
[11:38:58] <furrywolf> I have a 75V 5W zener for each driver
[11:39:31] <pcw_home> a big that capacitor slows the input slew rate may cause multiple pulses on a step drive
[11:40:44] <XXCoder1> you mean "that big capactor..."?
[11:40:45] <furrywolf> pcw: yep. but it worked a lot better than the undebounced switch. I was really just making sure the motor and driver were functional, which they appear to be.
[11:40:49] <furrywolf> ebay parts....
[11:41:13] <XXCoder1> you mean "that big a* capactor..."?
[11:41:31] <pcw_home> yes
[11:41:43] <XXCoder1> ok. sometimes my esl shows lol
[11:42:25] <furrywolf> got some pacsci steppers (8.6A/phase, 1.3mH) and centent cn0165 drivers.
[11:43:21] <furrywolf> 940ozin.
[11:49:38] <XXCoder1> I might get a new job at another company
[11:50:00] <XXCoder1> better pay, and more perment job and not intern
[11:50:31] <XXCoder1> if so I might finally have better budget and start buying 8020 beams to build my router, bypassing wood frame
[11:50:54] <FinboySlick> XXCoder1: was just about to mention 'increase in tool budget' ;)
[11:51:44] <furrywolf> I need more money... my job sucks, and I can barely pay the bills...
[11:53:26] <XXCoder1> that sucks
[12:00:09] <furrywolf> hrmm. now that I actually installed it, reboot doesn't work... just hangs at a black screen. have to do the 3sec power button to turn it off, then turn it on.
[12:26:11] <jthornton> I think I need to calculate the cord length of the end point and subtract that from the cord length of the start point
[12:26:54] <Tom_itx> jthornton, what exactly are you trying to find out?
[12:26:58] <Tom_itx> the endpoint?
[12:27:14] <Jymm> Tom_itx: How long to leave the roast in the oven for.
[12:27:22] <Tom_itx> oh
[12:27:33] <jthornton> the Z end point of part of the arc
[12:27:39] <Jymm> Tom_itx: (ndc, he's not making much sense =)
[12:27:47] <Tom_itx> is the rotissary on a cnc run by linuxcnc?
[12:28:01] <Jymm> lol
[12:28:12] <Jymm> No, but the smoker is
[12:34:48] <PetefromTn_> My machine made a fine smoker for about five seconds or so awhile back ;)
[12:37:38] <jthornton> I got it :)
[12:37:55] <PetefromTn_> LIGHT BULB!!
[12:39:14] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHaERIvFNE
[12:39:36] <jthornton> Tom_itx,
http://pastebin.com/ExbU6Y4K
[12:46:42] <furrywolf> $!#[15;2~%#%$$#%!!!!!
[12:46:48] <furrywolf> my breakout board just exploded.
[12:48:23] <jthornton> furrywolf, did you see I figured out the solution?
[12:49:25] <furrywolf> no
[12:49:42] <furrywolf> and right now I'm trying to find bits of my breakout board, and hoping I don't have hearing injury.
[12:49:57] <jthornton> http://pastebin.com/ExbU6Y4K
[12:50:01] <furrywolf> one of the chinese caps exploded hard enough to rip parts off...
[12:50:24] <furrywolf> there's bits of capacitor all over the ROOM.
[12:50:55] <jthornton> I calculated the cord length of the section of the circle and used that to find the Z position
[12:51:24] <furrywolf> I was playing with the maximum step rate I could get... I was up to 15 in/s...
[12:51:57] <furrywolf> seems the chinese caps don't like any ripple on the power supply input
[12:54:09] <furrywolf> brb, fetching camera from car, to send ebay seller very nasty email.
[12:57:56] <jthornton> when roughing on a lathe and the roughing steps is not evenly divisible into the distance to rough is it better to:
[12:58:07] <furrywolf> they're fucking counterfeit capacitors. "rulycon" instead of "rubycon".
[12:58:14] <jthornton> A step over until distance is less than step then take last distance
[12:58:30] <jthornton> B divide distance by step and take ceil
[12:58:38] <jthornton> C divide distance by step and take floor
[13:01:55] <archivist> I am not sure you can easily program roughing because the shape and stiffness of the part affects what you can/should do
[13:02:52] <jthornton> say for example you determine that you want to take 0.025" per pass and it does not divide up evenly into 0.2165
[13:03:21] <jthornton> do you take 0.025" for each pass except the last one?
[13:04:19] <jthornton> or take a little less each pass to take the same amount for each pass?
[13:04:26] <archivist> or slowle reduce the cuts as the part gets smaller, like the threading does
[13:05:05] <jthornton> that could be an option
[13:05:33] * jthornton goes to check the smoker
[13:06:11] <Jymm> jthornton: What?! Non g-code of smoker.status ?
[13:06:16] <Jymm> no*
[13:06:42] <jthornton> 4.5 degrees and it is nap time
[13:10:03] <furrywolf> suggestions for a MADE IN USA breakout board with non-counterfeit components, at a price someone with no money can afford?
[13:11:19] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: lolz
[13:11:29] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: practically - replacing the input caps may be sane.
[13:12:04] <furrywolf> this board exploded with less than a half hour of use
[13:12:43] <furrywolf> looks like no other parts were actually broken off, just one of the optos bent outwards on its legs... couldn't really tell until I scraped off capacitor remains.
[13:12:44] <PetefromTn_> furrywolf get some mesanet cards and be happy LOL
[13:12:55] <furrywolf> so I'll probably replace the caps, but it still pisses me off.
[13:14:00] <furrywolf> I can't find the cap's shell... it's probably in some inaccessible corner under something.
[13:15:22] <archivist> just putting that type on backwards can make it fly, one nearly missed my head one day on its way to the ceiling
[13:16:24] <XXCoder1> cap rocket
[13:16:26] <archivist> I have seen red and black wires swapped on a chines motor controller
[13:16:56] <furrywolf> from what's left of the wrapper, it's in the right way around.
[13:17:12] <furrywolf> they're 50V caps, I was running at 30V.
[13:17:27] <furrywolf> the real problem is they're ruLycon, not ruBycon.
[13:17:46] <furrywolf> rulycon being a known counterfeit/knockoff/fake brand
[13:18:20] <pcw_home> I used to work at a sound effects hardware company and have seen test technicians
[13:18:22] <pcw_home> chasing assembly people around the tables after a reversed electrolytic blew up in their face...
[13:19:16] <Jymmm> DIY Air Dryer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfRH4Ol7x1Q
[13:20:53] <furrywolf> it's nothing to do with assembly... it's a counterfeit component.
[13:21:06] <furrywolf> the component is of the proper rating and installed correctly.
[13:21:11] <XXCoder1> yummy fake cap rockets
[13:21:52] <pcw_home> not counterfeit (counterfeit would be labeled Rubycon)
[13:22:50] <pcw_home> maybe should be named unrulycon
[13:24:03] <furrywolf> I guess I'll recap it, and make sure to run the breakout board off a separate supply to prevent any driver ripple from reaching it...
[13:24:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: wash the board in hot soapy water
[13:24:26] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: then dry in an oven at 80C or so for several hours
[13:24:29] <XXCoder1> dishwashing is everywhere
[13:24:34] <SpeedEvil> you do not want the capacitor juice on the board
[13:24:38] <furrywolf> I'll probably run it through my sonicator. it's pretty badly slimed. I'm uploading pictures now...
[13:24:46] <SpeedEvil> that works too
[13:24:52] <XXCoder1> cap juice a day keep doctor near
[13:25:23] <furrywolf> uploading 6 full-camera-res jpgs on my connection is a bad idea. I should have resampled them. oh well.
[13:25:31] <furrywolf> maybe in ten minutes you'll get macro porn...
[13:25:53] <XXCoder1> macro upload
[13:26:52] <furrywolf> I can only imagine it's a ripple current issue... or, of course, it could just be an entirely defective part. I followed centent's guidelines and put a >470uf capacitor right at the driver, in this case a 1000uf 100v...
[13:27:02] <furrywolf> so there shouldn't have been toooo much ripple.
[13:27:09] <furrywolf> said cap at the driver is ice cold, too.
[13:27:16] <furrywolf> so could be just defective.
[13:27:37] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: heating with two caps in parallel is primarily onthe good one, not the bad one
[13:27:45] <furrywolf> so much for cnc projects today.
[13:28:02] <furrywolf> and here I was so happy I was getting 15in/s out of my steppers!
[13:28:41] <XXCoder1> interesting idea, but way too expensive, jeez.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1329423847/mind4-worlds-first-android-based-smart-drone?ref=category_location
[13:28:46] <furrywolf> I obviously wouldn't get that on the actual mill, but it's still nice.
[13:28:55] <XXCoder1> 15 in/s?
[13:29:16] <XXCoder1> thats .85 mph. pretty impressive
[13:29:17] <furrywolf> 15 in/s with a 2:1 pulley and 10tpi leadscrews.
[13:29:52] <furrywolf> works out to... *math*... 18000rpm.
[13:30:28] <furrywolf> but it's just a bare motor with a piece of tape on the end of the shaft. not indicitave of actual machine performance.
[13:30:51] <furrywolf> I was using the axis test function and running it back and forth as fast I could get it to.
[13:31:47] <XXCoder1> hmm probably bit slower when it has to actually move stuff
[13:32:11] <furrywolf> probably quite a bit. :)
[13:32:30] <furrywolf> 20in/s made it lose steps audibly
[13:33:12] <XXCoder1> thats one of the problems I need to figure how to know. its impossible for me to know if its making noise that shows its missing steps.
[13:33:12] <furrywolf> I'd probably trash the machine trying to run it that fast anyway... big off-balance handwheels, plain brass leadscrew nuts, etc.
[13:33:30] <furrywolf> switch to servos. :)
[13:33:56] <XXCoder1> nah dont need fancy servos on my tiny router cnc
[13:34:10] <XXCoder1> I did setup and test and tuned it using feeling
[13:34:27] <XXCoder1> it ran pretty smooth but cant really know till its all together and running
[13:35:06] <furrywolf> if you just want to do a test to see if you lose steps in general, use an accurate micrometer or calipers to measure the current table position off the column/headstock/whatever is appropriate for your machine and axis, then run the axis test function that runs it back and forth at full speed repeadly... let it run for a few hours... return to start, and measure again.
[13:35:43] <XXCoder1> cool
[13:36:01] <furrywolf> if they don't match, you lost steps. if they do, you probably didn't.
[13:37:42] <furrywolf> actually, I don't know if the axis test keeps track of position... but it's easy enough to write some gcode to g0 back and forth a hundred times. :)
[13:37:57] <XXCoder1> indeed
[13:38:03] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/bbcaps/ exploded capacitor porn
[13:38:24] <XXCoder1> wow fibers everywhere
[13:38:37] <XXCoder1> literally
[13:39:04] <furrywolf> all over the board, my workbench, ME....
[13:39:20] <furrywolf> my jacket caught most of them
[13:40:55] <furrywolf> I'm somewhat worried about sonicating it with the relay... might trap moisture.
[13:46:41] <XXCoder1> HMMM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/620560346/101touch-the-new-generation-of-keyboard?ref=category_recommended
[13:47:32] <LeelooMinai> Tactile feedback level - zero :p
[13:47:44] <XXCoder1> thats the biggest flaw
[13:47:54] <furrywolf> I like clicky keyboards with mechanical switches. IBM Model M++.
[13:49:31] <furrywolf> nasty email sent to ebay seller. I told him to send me a board with non-fake capacitors on it. I highly doubt this will happen.
[13:50:40] <LeelooMinai> I have a nice keyboard idea that is better than that kickstarter.
[13:50:48] <LeelooMinai> imho at least:)
[13:51:08] <Connor1> LeelooMinai: and the idea is ?
[13:51:29] <LeelooMinai> The idea is good? :)
[13:53:10] <LeelooMinai> The lack of tactile feedback is not the only problem with that kicstarter keybord.
[13:53:29] <LeelooMinai> The other is, that you don't really want to look at the keyboard when using it.
[13:53:57] <furrywolf> I hate all touch things, such as touchscreens.
[13:54:16] <furrywolf> other than on very small devices
[13:54:20] <pcw_home> My neck already hurts looking at that thing
[13:54:27] <Connor> http://www.cnet.com/news/a-keyboard-that-rises-up-from-flat-touch-screens/
[13:54:29] <LeelooMinai> Not only have you move your eyes up and down, but also constantly refocus - that's kind of silly and will strain the eyes very quickly.
[13:55:55] <furrywolf> qwertz, eh?
[13:55:58] <Connor> I like the lcards layout on it.
[13:56:09] <XXCoder1> it could be great second keyboard
[13:56:13] <XXCoder1> custom for games and such
[13:56:37] * furrywolf has never seen a qwertZ keyboard.
[13:56:39] <XXCoder1> for example in ksp mode I would have 1-0 buttons display custom action #1 so on
[13:57:11] <XXCoder1> Connor: yeah would love that!
[13:57:19] <LeelooMinai> So my idea is pretty simple - use normal querty keyboard and have a sensor on it that will "image" the hands position on it. Some kind of infrared sensors probably. And then you can have the keyboard with hands displayed either on the main screen or some secondary close to it, and show how keys are remapped - using graphics, or whatever. You will have visual feedback where your hand is over they keyboard and you won't need to look
[13:57:20] <LeelooMinai> at it at all.
[13:57:43] <furrywolf> slovakian, apparantly.
[13:57:45] <LeelooMinai> The hands would be translucent of course.
[13:57:46] <Connor> It's nothing more than a touch screen monitor thats the size of a keyboard.. running android..
[13:57:58] <XXCoder1> Connor: and probably very hackable
[13:58:15] <XXCoder1> I wonder if it can be turned into "tablet" lol
[13:59:21] <furrywolf> I want to make laptops with real clicky keys, with a fancy collapsible mechanism to retract them when shutting the lcd so they don't make the laptop stupidly thick. (*cough* msi *cough*)
[14:00:08] <Connor> Their use to be a laptop with a split keyboard that would pop out wider than the laptop.. I don't remember who made it..
[14:00:15] <XXCoder1> that android keyboard thing definitely isnt good keyboard but it can be GREAT second keyboard
[14:00:39] <XXCoder1> I mean, use regular for usual, but gaming with custom keyboard? heck yes
[14:00:50] <furrywolf> connon: ibm thinkpad
[14:00:52] <furrywolf> connor
[14:01:03] <furrywolf> how the fucking hell do people use an irc client with no tab complete
[14:01:18] <Connor> furrywolf: I don't. and language please. :)
[14:01:20] <XXCoder1> no idea. I use one that supports auto complete tab lol
[14:01:32] <XXCoder1> just use flipping in place of f*ing
[14:01:35] <furrywolf> xxcoder: don't gamers want nice fast tactile keyboards they don't have to look at?
[14:01:43] <XXCoder1> usually yes
[14:01:46] <XXCoder1> for me not so much
[14:01:53] <LeelooMinai> XXCoder1: Imho that idea is useless as I just described:)
[14:01:56] <furrywolf> for some reason debian no longer includes bitchx, so I installed epic on here... and it has no tab complete.
[14:02:12] <XXCoder1> furrywolf: hexchat
[14:02:15] <jdh> I used epic for 10 years or so
[14:02:25] <LeelooMinai> No gamer will take their eyes from the screen to touch some silly touchpad-keyboard:)
[14:02:32] <Connor> I use Pidgin
[14:02:37] <XXCoder1> lee thats for twitch gamers
[14:02:38] <XXCoder1> Im not
[14:02:46] <jdh> I use irssi in screen(1) now
[14:02:47] <LeelooMinai> Same with games as warcraft
[14:02:54] <LeelooMinai> MMOs
[14:03:06] <XXCoder1> all unplayable
[14:03:09] <XXCoder1> for me that is
[14:03:22] <LeelooMinai> You would go crazy if you had to constantly touch some weird-ass keyboard:)
[14:03:52] <LeelooMinai> And probably end up cross-eyed or something:p
[14:04:12] <furrywolf> xxcoder1: hexchat appears to be a graphical irc client with a windows focus. both of the clients I just mentioned are console *nix clients...
[14:04:22] <XXCoder1> ahh
[14:04:26] <XXCoder1> console
[14:04:33] <furrywolf> jdh: irssi is evil, but that's an argument I'm not in the mood for right now. :P
[14:04:42] <XXCoder1> LeelooMinai: first result of weird-ass keyboard lol
https://i.imgur.com/J18Pci9.jpg
[14:04:50] <jdh> there is no evil
[14:05:05] <furrywolf> irssi... let's use all the same commands and ideas that normal irc clients use, but make them behave slightly differently so nothing you're used to actually works!
[14:05:30] <jdh> I have not experienced that.
[14:05:57] <XXCoder1> LeelooMinai: know what I really want?
[14:06:08] <XXCoder1> I want eink screen on each button keyboard
[14:06:09] <furrywolf> have you been using bitchx/epic-derived clients for a gazillion or so years? :)
[14:06:26] <jdh> ircII-epic for 10+years
[14:06:31] <furrywolf> xxcoder: I designed one of those the other day. (mentally, not actually built)
[14:06:34] <LeelooMinai> XXCoder1: That's pretty old - maybe not eink, but oled on each key
[14:06:45] <XXCoder1> LeelooMinai: I know of oled one. it sucks
[14:06:57] <XXCoder1> I dont want glowy keyboard
[14:06:58] <furrywolf> xxcoder: I couldn't decide between eink and lcd... eink wouldn't play well with backlight.
[14:07:19] <XXCoder1> furrywolf: kindle paperwhite works well with backlight so you probably can figure
[14:07:26] <LeelooMinai> It's still the same problem - you don't want to look at the keyboard and screen all the time.
[14:07:43] <XXCoder1> yeah but then it can be set to whatever you want
[14:07:52] <furrywolf> xxcoder: ok, then, eink it is. :P
[14:08:02] <furrywolf> I also designed it to be completely and totally waterproof.
[14:08:07] <furrywolf> AND clicky!
[14:08:10] <XXCoder1> daviok keyboard without pulling all keys and put em right places? hell yes
[14:08:25] <XXCoder1> waterproof/dustproof is good for cnc shops.
[14:08:33] <LeelooMinai> XXCoder1: And? What good it is that you can display something on keys if looking at them takes you off the real work you do on the screen? :)
[14:08:39] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9E-CXVFQ0M rulycon caps.
[14:09:11] <LeelooMinai> You will end up with neck injury.
[14:09:12] <furrywolf> my current cnc keyboard is water and dust-proof
[14:10:21] <furrywolf> leeloo: it lets you switch it for different languages, among other things. but, yes, it's not an incredibly useful technology.
[14:10:34] <XXCoder1> LeelooMinai: actually I would keep default charactor layout. custom display means it can show what buttons is for without me figuring it out
[14:10:42] <XXCoder1> but playstyle wouldnt change
[14:10:43] <LeelooMinai> It kind of sounds cool and all, but usability of it is poor.
[14:11:32] <XXCoder1> eink is awesome in some ways
http://www.slashgear.com/fes-e-ink-watch-changes-styles-and-colors-with-a-button-press-26357389/
[14:11:53] <furrywolf> you could do clever things like change the keys when ctrl/alt/fn/etc is pressed, but... not incredibly useful still.
[14:12:01] <XXCoder1> indeed
[14:12:36] <LeelooMinai> I like my idea better, but someopne probably patented it in some way already:)
[14:12:51] <XXCoder1> http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/02/this-dynamic-e-ink-keyboard-needs-to-become-a-real-thing/
[14:13:58] <furrywolf> I mostly was thinking about designing a waterproof backlit keyboard, and realized part of the technology I was thinking of could also be used for adding displays...
[14:14:02] <XXCoder1> it shows what I mean. specific application it shows usual abcs as well as what its for. makes learning shortcuts much faster
[14:14:48] <furrywolf> my lungs hurt. hopefully exploded capacitor isn't highly toxic...
[14:15:06] <XXCoder1> ow if it keeps like that check with doc
[14:15:29] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: I am afraid it is:)
[14:16:37] <XXCoder1> http://www.yankodesign.com/2013/01/29/best-keyboard-ever/ bit more detail
[14:18:45] <LeelooMinai> XXCoder1: Mildly useful, but the price would make it impractical - those eink displays are not cheap
[14:18:50] <XXCoder1> phone
http://www.andybrain.com/extras/samsung-alias-2-review.htm
[14:19:07] <XXCoder1> lee yeah it will change evenually
[14:19:14] <XXCoder1> first lcds was quite high price too
[14:19:20] <LeelooMinai> I heard that like 6 years ago...
[14:21:09] <LeelooMinai> Before that happens they will make displays flexible and you will be able to put tactile "buttons" beneath them:)
[14:23:38] <XXCoder1> its hard to predict where we will go
[14:23:46] <XXCoder1> 90s future is way off
[14:24:11] <XXCoder1> 2001 is about the only one that predicted tablets, star trek classic got it pretty close
[14:24:32] <LeelooMinai> I predicted tables in 80s:p
[14:24:36] <LeelooMinai> tablets*
[14:24:43] <furrywolf> I was wrong on which cap exploded... it looks like the internal 10V regulator filter cap.
[14:27:28] <furrywolf> how the hell does a cap fed with 10V after a lm317 explode?
[14:27:46] <Tom_itx> shorted internally
[14:28:02] <Tom_itx> tantalums love to explode
[14:28:10] <furrywolf> lm317s current regulate pretty well...
[14:28:41] <furrywolf> this was a chinese knockoff electrolytic, not a tantalum. it made a rather impressive boom.
[14:28:57] <Tom_itx> they are known for their fireworks
[14:29:32] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/bbcaps/bbcap03.jpg looks like that now
[14:30:17] <Tom_itx> i've been replacing ones on my MB as they start to bulge
[14:30:44] <furrywolf> yes, I've recapped plenty of motherboards...
[14:32:42] <furrywolf> I'll probably recap this breakout board if the seller doesn't want it back. my experience with ebay sellers is he'll probably send me another one... but I don't particularly trust another one not to do the exact same thing.
[14:33:24] <furrywolf> I like nichicon pw and pm personally.
[14:34:28] <Tom_itx> i don't remember what i got for mine
[14:34:35] <Tom_itx> they didn't quite fit
[14:35:38] <furrywolf> I often use slightly larger caps... sometimes you have to get creative.
[14:35:53] <furrywolf> I recapped an lcd display with ones several times larger, because they're what I had handy... it was interesting.
[14:36:29] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/hp1520after.jpg they fit! :P
[14:36:51] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/hp1520before.jpg original size ones
[14:37:31] <Tom_itx> similar to mine
[14:39:16] <furrywolf> I'm really sick of chinese products... the only chinese part of this cnc conversion is the breakout board, because I couldn't find an american one at a price I liked... and that one chinese part fucking explodes.
[14:39:57] <Tom_itx> haha
[14:40:00] <XXCoder1> fun
[14:40:23] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/694d2/p1010066.jpg wow, been ten years since I recapped that now... that one I not only used larger capacitors, I moved them over a bit to clear big heatsinks.
[14:45:11] <furrywolf> are any of them made in usa? heh
[14:46:18] <marmite> well you get what you pay fore
[14:46:19] <marmite> for
[14:47:39] <XXCoder1> indeed
[14:47:53] <XXCoder1> I bought chinsese sbrs and had to clean out metal flakes
[14:48:13] <XXCoder1> it mostly works smoothly just need some oil maybe and actually built lol
[14:48:24] <furrywolf> sbrs?
[14:48:53] <XXCoder1> http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/20117/China_SBR_Support_rail_unit201172315050410.jpg
[14:49:18] <furrywolf> ah
[14:50:44] <furrywolf> brb, time to rustle up some breakfast
[14:53:34] <marmite> sexy sbr
[14:53:45] <XXCoder1> thick, long and hard :P
[14:53:58] <marmite> omnom grease it upp like a bitch
[14:54:19] <XXCoder1> back and forth for hours
[14:57:17] * furrywolf wouldn't mind something else thick, long, hard, and greased up, back and forth for hours... being single sucks.
[14:59:41] <XXCoder1> it does suck. well
[14:59:56] <XXCoder1> random question - is there a way to cnc machine sharp inside corner lol
[15:00:16] <furrywolf> yes, but not easily with a 3 axis vertical mill. :P
[15:00:52] <XXCoder1> in calculus size radius for tool that can do exactly sharp corner is zero
[15:01:10] <XXCoder1> so what woul trick be?>
[15:01:15] <furrywolf> you can use a cutting wheel and a right angle gearbox, you can use wire edm, you can use broaching,...
[15:01:37] <XXCoder1> interesting
[15:02:08] <XXCoder1> well I guess im out for now. laters
[15:02:18] <furrywolf> cyas
[15:02:44] <furrywolf> my cnc projects are on hold pending a new breakout board or new caps for this one. bleh.
[15:03:53] <XXCoder1> yeah my projects on hatius for a while. not sure what to do yet lol going now
[15:15:50] <furrywolf> ohhh, don't forget using a boring bar in the spindle, with the motor off, as a slow shaper...
[15:21:35] <SpeedEvil> Or do you actually need a rectangle.
[15:21:44] <SpeedEvil> Orsomething that will clear a rectangle pressed into it
[15:22:01] <SpeedEvil> you can do a } at the corner
[15:22:31] <SpeedEvil> This can be called a stress relief milling
[15:22:47] <SpeedEvil> Because it does relieve lots of stress concentration at the sharp corner
[15:26:59] <JT-Shop> XXCoder1, a rotary broach will do a square corner
[15:28:43] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you get the math worked out?
[15:59:52] <furrywolf> joy... was going to go to the store, but according to one of the local news sources, the road has a foot of water on it. time to get my truck out from behind crap...
[16:11:36] <FinboySlick> furrywolf: Careful with that. A foot of water can hide a 3 foot drop.
[16:13:09] <Deejay> gn8
[16:39:00] <XXCoder1> JT-Shop: gonna google that
[16:40:31] <XXCoder1> http://www.polygonsolutions.com/how-rotary-broaching-works/ nice
[16:40:40] <_methods> yeah they're awesome
[16:40:59] <_methods> takes a bit to get them set up perfect
[16:41:07] <_methods> but once they're set they work great
[16:41:15] <XXCoder1> so can can use em too
[16:41:16] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, yep
[16:41:47] <Tom_itx> iirc i had finished code for that ball
[16:41:53] <Tom_itx> not sure if i posted it
[16:42:50] <Tom_itx> that all happened about the same time i blew the boards in my mill
[16:43:46] <XXCoder1> slides at bottom of that page is interesting
[16:45:00] <XXCoder1> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUEcagEmmZo
[16:47:10] <zeeshan> hey guys
[16:47:14] <zeeshan> can someone please do a sanity check for me
[16:47:15] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/h5PDqhQ.png
[16:47:21] <zeeshan> is my diagram right?
[16:47:45] <fenugrec> Hi, I have a small issue with axis homing on my lathe. I set HOME_OFFSET=142.7 and HOME=142.7, hoping that after homing the axis it will stay at the home switch position instead of rapid-ing to X=0... here's my AXIS_0 section :
http://pastebin.ca/2890697
[16:48:56] <fenugrec> hahahaa
[16:49:06] <fenugrec> I just noticed I have two "HOME=.." lines.
[16:49:17] <zeeshan> haha
[16:49:18] <zeeshan> :D
[16:49:19] <fenugrec> I just had to ask to get the answer
[16:49:52] <XXCoder1> fenugrec: its magic. You dont wanna know how many times I figured solution to code issues as soon as I ask.
[16:50:27] <fenugrec> XXCoder1 I think the solution would be to log in to a bogus IRC channel and ask the question to /dev/null . I wonder if the effect would be the same
[16:50:47] <XXCoder1> or ask "another person" mentally
[16:50:50] <XXCoder1> it helps sometimes
[16:51:10] <XXCoder1> I try to explain nonexistant person the issue and sometimes trying to explain helps find flaws
[16:51:47] <fenugrec> On another topic, is anyone else having issues with AXIS 2.6.5 ? I'm getting random hangs/freezes, very rarerly but now and then. Especially if I load/reload files or play with the tool table
[16:57:14] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, have a look at that one:
http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/JT-SHOP/
[17:00:33] <JT-Shop> that's pretty much what I did
[17:01:01] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure if the tool offset is right but see if it loads ok if you don't mind
[17:01:07] <XXCoder1> lathe I guess
[17:02:16] <XXCoder1> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Cube1.jpg nice
[17:02:34] <JT-Shop> first thing I notice is your using wrapping % and a M30, only one is used
[17:03:21] <Tom_itx> i'm sure the post could use a bit of work
[17:03:35] <Tom_itx> i haven't had problems with the %
[17:03:36] <JT-Shop> the first radius has a huge error
[17:03:42] <zeeshan> does anyone know if the GND ### at each drive output on the 7i77
[17:03:46] <zeeshan> goes to an op amp
[17:03:57] <Tom_itx> what does it do?
[17:04:13] <JT-Shop> you only use % when you don't want to reset the current settings
[17:04:39] <Tom_itx> i wasn't aware what % was for honestly
[17:04:53] <Tom_itx> it's been in all my templates for years :)
[17:05:27] <_methods> it's a fanuc thing
[17:05:32] <JT-Shop> I assume different controls use % in their own manner and may be different than LinuxCNC
[17:05:34] <Tom_itx> my lathe post hardly gets much critiquing since i don't have a lathe
[17:05:44] <_methods> most posts just default start with %
[17:05:54] <zeeshan> why not start with %
[17:05:59] <zeeshan> and then write all the standard commands you want :D
[17:06:01] <zeeshan> thats what i do
[17:06:22] <JT-Shop> why not read the manual and see what % does, I do
[17:06:32] <Tom_itx> well if you have defaults set already and only have one machine you may not want it there
[17:06:43] <zeeshan> i like my code to be universal
[17:06:45] <zeeshan> between machines
[17:06:59] <zeeshan> so i never trust a machines defaults
[17:07:08] <Tom_itx> i haven't looked at the post for a few weeks
[17:07:14] <zeeshan> it also makes code easier to adapt to other machines
[17:07:46] <Tom_itx> we used it but we had a multi machine shop
[17:11:07] <furrywolf> finboy: my truck won't mind a 3ft drop... but this area floods pretty often. it's always standing water.
[17:12:40] <JT-Shop> hmm soft lead is 0.78/lb at the scrappers
[17:12:53] <JT-Shop> I wonder what my local scrap yard gives
[17:13:00] <XXCoder1> yummy tasty lead
[17:13:36] <zeeshan> how do you know what is the tachometer - or + lead
[17:13:42] <zeeshan> coming out of a servo tacho
[17:13:57] <zeeshan> if i rotate the servo clockwise by hand
[17:14:10] <zeeshan> can i tell?
[17:14:15] <zeeshan> by hooking it up to a scope
[17:14:46] <furrywolf> is it a tachometer, or an encoder? quadrature?
[17:14:48] <cradek> check your amp instructions - usually the tach is opposite the command
[17:15:10] <zeeshan> my amp says "tachometer input - goes a certain pin"
[17:15:11] <cradek> so if commanded positive voltage makes the motor go clockwise, the tach should go negative
[17:15:14] <furrywolf> hook it up and see if it doesn't work? :)
[17:15:16] <zeeshan> tach + goes to chassis ground
[17:15:20] <zeeshan> er
[17:15:21] <zeeshan> signal ground.
[17:15:22] <zeeshan> not chassis
[17:15:35] <cradek> or just try it -- one way it runs away, the other way it holds position
[17:15:41] <zeeshan> okay
[17:15:49] <cradek> not sure I'd do that with it hooked to a machine though
[17:15:55] <zeeshan> motors are off
[17:15:59] <cradek> aha
[17:16:01] <cradek> then it'll be easy
[17:16:14] <zeeshan> dont you have to do amplifier velocity tuning
[17:16:16] <zeeshan> with them off the machine?
[17:16:21] <zeeshan> (thats why i took them off)_
[17:16:26] <cradek> with it the right way, it will fight you if you try to turn the motor
[17:16:52] <cradek> I doubt you can do any useful tuning with the motors not moving the actual mass of the machine
[17:16:53] <zeeshan> even when the servo drive is not tuned?
[17:17:00] <cradek> but you can sure get your polarities right
[17:17:10] <cradek> depends how bad the tuning is
[17:17:16] <zeeshan> its completely untuned
[17:17:20] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Peeked at your videos yesterday. What's your mill?
[17:17:21] <cradek> well one way it will totally run away
[17:17:23] <cradek> that's the wrong way
[17:17:39] <zeeshan> by run away, you mean
[17:17:44] <zeeshan> it'll go full speed turning?
[17:17:58] <zeeshan> where as in the right direction it might drift slowly?
[17:17:59] <cradek> yes if you give it a little push clockwise it will run clockwise as fast as it can
[17:18:03] <zeeshan> okay
[17:18:04] <cradek> yes exactly
[17:18:18] <zeeshan> i should hold the servo in a vise then :)
[17:18:20] <cradek> it might drift or oscillate a bit
[17:18:22] <cradek> oh yes
[17:18:38] <zeeshan> FinboySlick: wf21c mikron
[17:19:49] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: Wow, that's pretty beefy.
[17:20:15] <furrywolf> should I recap this breakout board with high-quality low-esr caps (that I'd need to order from mouser and wait a week), or whatever a 20pc radio shack cap assortment comes with these days? I don't see any part of it that needs low esr... it's just filtering before and after a lm317...
[17:20:23] <zeeshan> :)
[17:20:53] <zeeshan> furrywolf, like the crowd says
[17:20:56] <zeeshan> buy a mesa!
[17:20:57] <zeeshan> :P
[17:21:10] <zeeshan> 7i76
[17:21:13] <zeeshan> or 7i77 :D
[17:21:26] <furrywolf> they're unpleasantly expensive, to the point I think they're just pocketing your money...
[17:21:40] <zeeshan> tell that to pcw in this channel
[17:21:41] <furrywolf> I picked up my stepper/driver sets for less than a little pcb?
[17:21:42] <zeeshan> lol
[17:21:54] <zeeshan> it's far from expensive
[17:21:58] <zeeshan> when you realize what it can do
[17:22:15] <zeeshan> but i guess if youre playing with little steppers
[17:22:19] <zeeshan> there is no point buying it
[17:22:28] <zeeshan> like the lathe uses steppers, and i dont use it there
[17:22:33] <zeeshan> i use a probotix rf there
[17:22:43] <zeeshan> (which is the biggest pos for a universal application)
[17:22:49] <furrywolf> they're mid-sized steppers... pacsci nema34, 940ozin, 8.6A/phase.
[17:23:02] <zeeshan> what bob are you using
[17:23:27] <furrywolf> a $15 ebay one, that after 30mins of use exploded.
[17:23:40] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/bbcaps/ like that
[17:23:49] <zeeshan> rofl
[17:24:01] <zeeshan> that looks like a well constructed bob
[17:24:07] <zeeshan> prolly just crap caps?
[17:24:15] <zeeshan> or they suddenly saw reverse voltage
[17:24:22] <zeeshan> for some reason?
[17:24:32] <furrywolf> they're counterfeits.
[17:24:34] <zeeshan> is there an isolation plane?
[17:24:38] <furrywolf> (the caps)
[17:24:50] <furrywolf> kockoff rubycons.
[17:25:17] <zeeshan> now that look at it carefully
[17:25:20] <furrywolf> knockoff
[17:25:22] <zeeshan> those 2 black chips look like isolation
[17:25:23] <zeeshan> chips
[17:25:42] <furrywolf> no, they're just buffers.
[17:25:47] <zeeshan> o
[17:26:27] <zeeshan> http://www.probotix.com/breakout_boards/pbx-rf_isolated_breakout_board/
[17:26:30] <zeeshan> i used that on the lathe
[17:26:50] <zeeshan> i think isolation is necessary :P
[17:27:18] <furrywolf> the stepper driver outputs are just buffered, not isolated. which is ok for me, since my drivers have optoisolated inputs. the spindle control and limit/etc inputs are optoisolated. it uses an internal 10V supply to run these, and from what I can figure out (hard to follow traces), the cap that exploded was the filter for the 10V supply.
[17:27:27] <furrywolf> the 10V comes from a lm317.
[17:29:34] <JT-Shop> the 5i25 7i76 combo is $200 you can't beat that and get hardware step generator
[17:29:54] <furrywolf> the board design and construction seems adequate.... but it has fake caps.
[17:30:44] <furrywolf> $200 is a lot of money for me. I am not a rich wolfy. heh. and I'm not buying anything over $5 until february, as january's taxes are going to wipe my account out.
[17:37:53] <furrywolf> also, since I'm driving this from a laptop, I don't have pci slots...
[17:41:54] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[18:01:59] <furrywolf> looks like I could do it with the 7i43 parallel fpga board with two 50 pin plugs, a hd-db 50pin to db25 adapter, and the 7i76 step/dir/etc io board... which is a lot of parts.
[18:02:13] <Tom_itx> furrywolf, i'm using parport cards on mine
[18:02:15] <furrywolf> and I'd still be connecting to it with a parallel port.
[18:02:29] <pcw_home> Use a 7I76E
[18:02:31] <Tom_itx> gonna be using a 7I90 and 7I47
[18:02:48] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, wasn't able to save the 7i43...
[18:03:22] <Tom_itx> i did get the parts replaced including the 2 tiny regs but the fpga started getting hot so there was likely more damage
[18:03:26] <furrywolf> pcw: I don't see it on the list of boards linuxcnc works with, and I'm really not going to spend all that money AND get stuck writing drivers.
[18:03:46] <pcw_home> 7I76E is supported by 2.7
[18:04:09] <jthornton> furrywolf, and more than $5
[18:04:56] <Tom_itx> and i only got about .6v from the 1.2v reg
[18:05:02] <Tom_itx> the 3.3 showed 3.3
[18:05:45] <Tom_itx> that one probably powers the fpga core
[18:06:33] <Tom_itx> may be a bit before i order... had to replace a frig and contents yesterday
[18:06:43] <furrywolf> I'll keep an eye out for any of them cheap on ebay, but for now, software step generation it is.
[18:06:46] <Tom_itx> that's 2 in ~ a month or two
[18:06:49] <jthornton> ewww stinky
[18:07:02] <Tom_itx> naw, we caught it before that happened
[18:07:23] * jthornton needs to get the while loop sorted out now that the first pass is sorted out
[18:07:52] <Tom_itx> jthornton, were those arcs offset too far or were they just wrong?
[18:07:57] <Tom_itx> on my post
[18:08:19] <jthornton> I don't know if the start position was off or the offsets
[18:08:19] <furrywolf> not only do I not have lots of money, I don't think this chinese mill/lathe combo is worth throwing lots of money at.
[18:08:21] <pcw_home> yeah if the 1.2V regulator failed it probably took out the FPGA (Our 6I24 proto had a interplane short between 1.2v and PC 3.3v and had a orange glowing FPGA Volcano)
[18:08:36] <Tom_itx> hah
[18:09:04] <Tom_itx> hopefully the 7i47 is still good but i'm gonna get another one anyway
[18:09:06] <jthornton> science fair volcano :)
[18:09:34] <pcw_home> Tom_itx: I may have a proto 7I90 around (or 5i24 or 6i24)
[18:10:24] <furrywolf> distinct lack of mesa boards on ebay.
[18:11:06] <pcw_home> Ive seen some of our stuff from 1988 on Ebay :-)
[18:11:39] <LeelooMinai> 1988? What was it then - tube controllers? :p
[18:11:43] <furrywolf> every other part of this project is from the '80s, so... :P
[18:11:57] <_methods> mesa tape reader lol
[18:12:08] <zeeshan> pcw_home: can you please look at my wiring diagram
[18:12:13] <furrywolf> shoptask lathe/mill combo machine, centent cn0165 drivers, round pacsci steppers,...
[18:12:14] <zeeshan> im about to hook up 5 servo drive wires
[18:12:31] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/h5PDqhQ.png
[18:12:37] <zeeshan> does that look correct
[18:12:39] <furrywolf> the chinese breakout board is the only part I bought new, other than small things like wire.
[18:12:43] <zeeshan> im mostly concerned about the -24vdc wire
[18:12:44] <pcw_home> we started making disk emulators (with battery backed CMOS RAM) around 1985
[18:13:30] <furrywolf> I guess the laptop is 2007ish vintage, so it's the newest part of the system... $33. heh.
[18:14:06] <zeeshan> furrywolf you decided on getting a mesa card? :P
[18:14:14] <furrywolf> no
[18:14:29] <furrywolf> I decided on being able to pay my taxes next month, before this conversation even started. :P
[18:14:30] <zeeshan> what type of machine are you building
[18:16:56] <furrywolf> a very well used shoptask mill/lathe combo (see
http://fw.bushytails.net/shoptask02.jpg ), used pacsci 940ozin nema34 steppers, used centent cn0165 drivers, used toughbook cf-29 laptop... and for now, software stepping!
[18:16:57] <pcw_home> zeeshan: theres no particular reason the 24V common needs to be connected to analog common (at least as far as the 7I77 is concerned)
[18:18:00] <zeeshan> pcw_home: the reason i ask is this:
[18:18:02] <zeeshan> The drives common or GND signal should be connected to the 7I77 power GND with a separate wire.
[18:18:04] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, i'm good with protos :)
[18:18:05] <zeeshan> thats what it says in the manual
[18:18:17] <furrywolf> either a pair of iota 24v supplies wired in series for 56v, or a homebrew 60v unregulated, not sure yet.
[18:18:20] <zeeshan> my 7i77 power ground goes to -24vdc..
[18:18:28] <zeeshan> thats why im sending the drive common to -24vdc
[18:19:12] <Tom_itx> dunno what the 5i24 or 6i24 are exactly..
[18:19:17] <pcw_home> Theres no real reason the 24V supply cannot float (unless it makes a wiring mess)
[18:20:27] <pcw_home> the drives input commons should connect to the 7I77s analog grounds (as pairs with AOUTs)
[18:20:49] <zeeshan> wait asec.
[18:20:57] <zeeshan> the vin and gnd @ the field power
[18:21:20] <zeeshan> isn't the gnd (-24vdc)
[18:21:46] <zeeshan> the same ground that should be going to the servo common ?
[18:21:49] <pcw_home> field power is completely isolated from system gnd
[18:22:00] <furrywolf> pcw: hopefully your boards are more reliable than the chinese breakout board I got, which exploded (of the burst pressure vessel variety, not the detonation variety) after 30mins of use...
[18:22:18] <pcw_home> it may be commoned but should have its own path
[18:22:34] <PetefromTn_> Heh I used to have a machine like that.
[18:23:20] <zeeshan> man i must be dumb
[18:23:24] <zeeshan> i dont understand what youre saying :/
[18:23:42] <zeeshan> i need to know in the 7i77 manual it says "The drives common or GND signal should be connected to the 7I77 power GND with a separate wire."
[18:23:53] <zeeshan> in the section "analog servo drive interface"
[18:23:59] <zeeshan> i need to know what is meant by that
[18:24:23] <zeeshan> there are no power ground terminals on the 7i77
[18:24:36] <zeeshan> except at field power
[18:24:40] <furrywolf> it means run a separate wire from each drive directly to the gnd pin on the board, with nothing else connected to it, to prevent noise issues
[18:24:48] <furrywolf> (at least that's my reading of it)
[18:24:54] <zeeshan> there is no ground pin on the board
[18:25:06] <zeeshan> AOUT3 is already going to ref +
[18:25:10] <zeeshan> gnd3 is going to ref-
[18:25:35] <zeeshan> there is no pin for ground of servo drive to go to signal ground of 7i77
[18:25:42] <zeeshan> i mean
[18:25:53] <zeeshan> there is no pin for signal ground of servo drive to go to ground of 7i77
[18:26:00] <furrywolf> in that case, I have no clue. :)
[18:26:01] <zeeshan> thats why that kinda threw me off
[18:26:05] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, the 5i24 looks alot like the 7i90 save the interface
[18:26:23] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure the D525 has a pcie slot
[18:26:28] <Tom_itx> for the 6i24
[18:29:54] <pcw_home> For a differential input drive I would make sure the input common is grounded to frame ground at some point ( to establish the common mode)
[18:31:02] <zeeshan> i was hoping to keep all the 24vdc stuff
[18:31:03] <zeeshan> floaitng
[18:31:12] <zeeshan> thats why i have that wire drawing to -24vdc
[18:31:15] <zeeshan> *drawn
[18:31:55] * furrywolf gives up on finding used mesa boards, and sticks with software stepping for the forseeable future
[18:32:00] <pcw_home> you can (the 24V stuff is all isolated) so thers no reason to connect any of it to ground/drive commons etc
[18:32:29] <zeeshan> furry wolf
[18:32:34] <zeeshan> i asked you what type of machine ure building!
[18:32:38] <zeeshan> :P
[18:33:43] <furrywolf> zeeshan: and I said: > a very well used shoptask mill/lathe combo (see
http://fw.bushytails.net/shoptask02.jpg ), used pacsci 940ozin nema34 steppers, used centent cn0165 drivers, used toughbook cf-29 laptop... and for now, software stepping! > either a pair of iota 24v supplies wired in series for 56v, or a homebrew 60v unregulated, not sure yet.
[18:34:10] <zeeshan> the problem with parallel port in that case is
[18:34:13] <zeeshan> you dont have enough i/o.
[18:34:26] <furrywolf> if I wire all the limit switches together, I have plenty. :)
[18:34:34] <zeeshan> how will you home the machine
[18:34:40] <zeeshan> if the limit switches are wired together?
[18:34:51] <furrywolf> I'll probably run without limit switches at first anyway... too many mounts to fab.
[18:34:57] <Tom_itx> tell it the home directon and wait for a fault
[18:35:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is doable apparently
[18:35:08] <furrywolf> linuxcnc will home to the limit switches, one axis at a time, as long as none of them are triggered when you start.
[18:35:34] <Tom_itx> you need to define the home order in that case
[18:35:41] <furrywolf> it just moves an axis until the limit/home pin trips, moves back, repeat on next axis.
[18:35:42] <furrywolf> yes
[18:35:46] <Tom_itx> so they don't all home at once
[18:36:03] <PetefromTn_> but I would not do it that way. Limits are last ditch emergency stop
[18:36:09] <furrywolf> but, as I said, I don't even plan on limits at first... especially since x/z needs two sets depending on if it's in lathe or mill mode...
[18:36:16] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: but they work that way
[18:36:21] <zeeshan> if any of the limit switches get hit
[18:36:25] <zeeshan> itll go in e mode
[18:36:42] <furrywolf> (with the tailstock and lathe chuck on, x/z has a lot less travel than with them removed)
[18:37:08] <PetefromTn_> I know it is a PIA but adding homes AND limits is the way to go and could save you some grief...
[18:37:43] <furrywolf> I'd probably have the homes in the exact same spot as the limits anyway...
[18:38:22] <furrywolf> the machine has no mounts for switches, and I really want to limit how much effort I put into a chinese machine, so it might never get any.
[18:38:24] <zeeshan> furry my lathe uses +x and +z
[18:38:29] <zeeshan> as limit/home switch :)
[18:38:30] <zeeshan> works fine
[18:38:38] <PetefromTn_> you can put a limit on the tailstock with a little flag like my new CNC lathe has.. that way it does not matter where the tailstock is.
[18:38:51] <zeeshan> oo PetefromTn_
[18:38:53] <furrywolf> pete: except for when you remove it entirely. :)
[18:39:08] <furrywolf> it's a lathe/mill combo machine
[18:39:14] <PetefromTn_> then you can setup a little bracket or something.
[18:39:26] <PetefromTn_> I am VERY familiar with the machine I owned one for years.
[18:39:47] <furrywolf> still have any parts for it? mine needs some. :)
[18:39:55] <PetefromTn_> nope sold it years ago.
[18:40:18] <furrywolf> mine either fell or got hit with a forklift (the story was re-told too many times and was hazy).
[18:40:27] <furrywolf> that's why it was within my budget.
[18:40:31] <PetefromTn_> honestly I think it would be a really neat little hobby CNC...
[18:40:49] <PetefromTn_> as a lathe with CNC and spindle encoder it would be a lot of fun
[18:40:50] <furrywolf> I think so too, especially since I have very limited space.
[18:40:54] <PetefromTn_> you could make a gang tool setup.
[18:41:19] <furrywolf> I plan on adding a spindle encoder, yes... especially since it came with exactly two thread change gears, rather than a dozen, a bracket to put them on, etc...
[18:41:26] <zeeshan> pcw_home: so you're telling me if i have only ref+ ref- connected along with ena+ for each drive
[18:41:33] <PetefromTn_> the mill kinda sucks but there are ways around that... you could buy or build the four post head lift like I was working on..
[18:41:34] <zeeshan> 7i77 and the drive will be able to communicate?
[18:41:40] <zeeshan> so basically i only need 3 wires.
[18:42:10] <PetefromTn_> or the big steel brackets that run to the tailstock end of the base like the Patriot machine has.
[18:42:15] <furrywolf> the biggest problem I've noticed with the mill part is the z axis is sloppy by design, and only has 3" of travel.
[18:42:33] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: can you explain this limit switch thing
[18:42:35] <zeeshan> for the tailstock?
[18:42:39] <furrywolf> the rack and pinion with a worm gear driving it has backlash in about six spots, only about two of which are adjustable.
[18:42:47] <zeeshan> you manually push the tailstock against the limit switch?
[18:43:22] <PetefromTn_> well the machine has home/limits for X and Z on the carriage
[18:43:50] <PetefromTn_> and the tailstock has a little flag that will contact the limit for Z no matter where the tailstock lies
[18:44:13] <furrywolf> the biggest mechanical problem I have is the stepper end of the x axis leadscrew has about a 15 degree bend in it... going to take some fun with my oxytorch and a hammer to make it run true.
[18:44:17] <PetefromTn_> It is actually a pretty sweet way to do it I would have never thought of had I not seen it.
[18:44:26] <pcw_home> zeeshan: no, you need to connect ena- to the drives signal common
[18:44:38] <PetefromTn_> does it have ballscrews?
[18:44:46] <furrywolf> no
[18:44:55] <PetefromTn_> I would save my pennies and get some
[18:45:09] <zeeshan> okay i think i get it now.
[18:45:13] <furrywolf> if I save my pennies, it'll be for a higher quality machine in better shape.
[18:45:23] <PetefromTn_> thats up to you for sure
[18:45:24] <zeeshan> so the aout3 and gnd3 are their own independent circuit
[18:45:26] <furrywolf> this one lived under a tarp after falling. it has broken things and rust...
[18:45:33] <zeeshan> while ena + and ena- is its own indpdenent circuit
[18:45:40] <pcw_home> yes
[18:45:40] <zeeshan> without having ena- connected to drive signal common
[18:45:45] <zeeshan> there would be no circuit
[18:45:45] <PetefromTn_> what is broken?
[18:45:52] <zeeshan> okay that makes sense, thank you :)
[18:46:36] <furrywolf> the bent leadscrew, the lathe motor tensioner, several handwheels and levers, all the screws holding the lathe belt housing to the machine body.
[18:47:19] <furrywolf> it's usable as-is as a manual mill... someone "carefully" sawzalled out a big jagged hole to let the bent end of the leadscrew wobble without hitting the sheetmetal. :)
[18:47:27] <furrywolf> (previous owner, not myself)
[18:48:19] <pcw_home> zeeshan: yep, you enable the drives by connecting the drives enable in to the drives signal common
[18:48:20] <pcw_home> (the ENA+ and ENA- are a floating switch that make the connection when enabled)
[18:48:33] <PetefromTn_> well you would most likely be replacing the screws with ballscrews, the lathe motor bracket as I recall is a simple affair and the screws are cheap to replace. It would be up to you to decide if it is the machine you want to have or not but none of that sounds too terrible especially if you got it for a good price.
[18:48:59] <PetefromTn_> handles would be removed with motor installation and not necessary after it is CNC
[18:49:13] <zeeshan> For active low enable drives, ENAN+ should go the the drive enable and ENAN- to control power ground
[18:49:17] <furrywolf> no, it doesn't sound too terrible. that's why I got it!
[18:49:20] <PetefromTn_> is it machined for steppers like a lot of them were?
[18:49:21] <zeeshan> i think thats what threw me off pcw.
[18:49:25] <zeeshan> i was thinking control power ground was -24vdc.
[18:49:30] <zeeshan> instead of ena-
[18:49:34] <zeeshan> er
[18:49:37] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: any idea how it got bent?
[18:49:38] <zeeshan> isntead of drive common ground.
[18:49:46] <zeeshan> im a noob :)
[18:49:48] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[18:50:03] <furrywolf> yep, it's ready to go for steppers, except for the bent leadscrew, mis-alignment of the box (the stepper mounts to it), and the broken (or so I was told - it didn't come with it) timing pulley for the bent leadscrew.
[18:50:35] <furrywolf> 95% of the work is going to be straightening the leadscrew, finding a matching timing pulley, and reattaching the box.
[18:50:43] <furrywolf> with 5% the motor tensioner and handwheels.
[18:51:04] <furrywolf> the threaded part is ok... it's only the last three inches, outside of the final bearing, that got bent. I plan to heat and hammer...
[18:51:06] <PetefromTn_> a seperate mill or lathe is of course a better option but you would be surprised how many parts I made on that little machine and it was not even CNC..
[18:51:06] <zeeshan> pics of your machine? :D
[18:51:17] <PetefromTn_> he posted it like three times now
[18:51:17] <zeeshan> pete is it true they are sloppy?
[18:51:25] <zeeshan> the mill/lathe combos
[18:51:29] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I pasted one already, and again when I re-pasted it to you.
[18:51:31] <PetefromTn_> define sloppy
[18:51:39] <zeeshan> can't hold a couple thou
[18:51:43] <furrywolf> this one is sloppy, but I wouldn't use it to suggest they all are.
[18:51:47] <zeeshan> and flexs a lot under 20-30 thou cuts
[18:51:50] <PetefromTn_> actually the lathe was quite decent
[18:51:55] <zeeshan> whoops he did post it
[18:51:59] <zeeshan> links show up as blue for me
[18:52:06] <PetefromTn_> the mill is kind of a compromise
[18:52:08] <zeeshan> on a black background, so i dont see them sometimes
[18:52:08] <zeeshan> haha
[18:52:13] <t12_> i found an ingot of babbitt metal at the fleamarket today
[18:52:20] <t12_> i should try pouring a little bearing
[18:52:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: nice machine :)
[18:52:37] <zeeshan> very interesting looking
[18:52:57] <PetefromTn_> but with a careful setup and locking everything down tight it was not terrible. Not anywhere near as good as say my RF45 was..
[18:53:10] <zeeshan> what about your 12x36
[18:53:13] <zeeshan> in lathe operation mode
[18:53:15] <furrywolf> pete: I have a _lot_ of flex in the X (when milling) bracket, that attaches the leadscrew nuts to the carriage. it seems to be by design...
[18:53:32] <furrywolf> the bracket is C shaped, and twists whenever it's loaded.
[18:53:52] <PetefromTn_> no it is not anything like the 12x36 either
[18:54:17] <PetefromTn_> but again this is a relatively cheap 3 in 1 machine that takes up a fraction of the space of the other two machines.
[18:54:47] <furrywolf> bah, if I use separate switches, my plan of hiding all the extra wiring in the stepper motor wiring goes out the window... I got servo cable with a separately shielded pair that I was going to use for the limit switches, to only have one nice round cable. :)
[18:54:57] <PetefromTn_> I don't remember having any issues with the table on the mill.
[18:55:09] <PetefromTn_> it was the millhead and distance to the table that caused issues.
[18:55:52] <furrywolf> heh, I got a mt3 spacer... it'll add slop and runout (and plenty of it), but it gets the tool somewhere near the table.
[18:56:13] <PetefromTn_> Like I said for a hobby machine it would be a lot of fun with the side effect that once you are finished you actually have a neat little gang tooled lathe AND a light duty CNC mill at the same time...
[18:56:56] <PetefromTn_> BTW what kind of 4x4 van is that?
[18:56:58] <furrywolf> it really should have about double the Z travel.
[18:57:10] <furrywolf> the od truck?
[18:57:11] <PetefromTn_> in mill mode?
[18:57:15] <furrywolf> yes
[18:57:38] <PetefromTn_> I thought it had like 5" or so as I recall maybe there is something wrong with it inside?
[18:57:39] <furrywolf> gah, why the hell do lathes use axi different from mills?
[18:57:45] <furrywolf> no, it only has 3".
[18:58:01] <PetefromTn_> is it a 1720 XMTC Gold model?
[18:58:11] <furrywolf> non-gold
[18:58:34] <zeeshan> furry they do?
[18:58:55] <zeeshan> both use right hand coordinate systems
[18:59:13] <zeeshan> where your middle finger to pinky point to Z
[18:59:33] <furrywolf> zeeshan: x becomes z, y becomes x...
[18:59:45] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ktmarketing.com/quadraliftpictures.htm I was in the middle of building this lift system for the millhead when I got some cash and wound up selling the machine for an RF45 and 12x36 lathe.
[18:59:48] <zeeshan> furry its relative to the spindle.
[18:59:54] <zeeshan> axial in and out towards spindle is always z
[18:59:56] <zeeshan> in machine worlds
[19:00:10] <zeeshan> always = most of the time
[19:00:16] <zeeshan> im sure there is a machine out there that isn't conventional
[19:00:36] <furrywolf> heh, just found a forum thread saying that by far the easiest way to add limit switches to this machine is to glue them to rare earth magnets and just stick them on. :)
[19:00:52] <PetefromTn_> actually X stays the same, Y becomes Z is how I would do it.
[19:01:24] <furrywolf> that's one way to get some more Z travel!
[19:01:26] <zeeshan> furry i did mine in such a ghetto way
[19:01:42] <PetefromTn_> you would just have dual configs one for mill op and one for lathe op
[19:02:13] <furrywolf> is that just DOM tubing, or do you have some fancy bearings to make it slide without play?
[19:02:18] <zeeshan> ofcours ei cant find the pic
[19:02:20] <zeeshan> when i need to
[19:02:29] <PetefromTn_> they were ground rods..
[19:02:38] <PetefromTn_> it was quite heavy
[19:02:50] <furrywolf> the part that slides on them...
[19:02:50] <PetefromTn_> I had it all mocked up and ready to be automated when I finally sold it.
[19:03:52] <PetefromTn_> no actually this is not the Z axis really it is just a means to raise and lower the head and then you would use the 5" of travel for the Z... you raise or lower it and lock it in place at the height you need.
[19:03:57] <furrywolf> that machine is a lot newer and fancier than mine
[19:04:05] <PetefromTn_> The patriot lift is more a full time Z apparently...
[19:04:11] <PetefromTn_> sure
[19:04:22] <PetefromTn_> but it is almost exactly the same machine as far as I know.
[19:04:37] <furrywolf> not really... I think it's built pretty differently.
[19:05:09] <furrywolf> hrmm, or maybe it's just you have a bunch of covers covering all the exposed bits on mine, plus all the extra stuff for the dro.
[19:05:13] <PetefromTn_> Oh sorry you were asking about the tubing inside the bracket yeah it was DOM I used...
[19:05:38] <PetefromTn_> I also used a cylinder hone to get it close fitment and sliding easy.
[19:05:52] <PetefromTn_> Getting it all to slide and move smoothly from top to bottom was a bitch tho.
[19:06:18] <PetefromTn_> Keep in mind I did most of that machining on the machine itself..
[19:07:57] <furrywolf> no, there's a lot more differences... your carriage/saddle rotates, your x axis leadscrew bracket is a different shape, you apparantly have 2" more z travel, you have a lever sticking out of the belt box that I don't have and don't know what it does, your z axis rack/pinion is on the inside of the head while mine is on the outside...
[19:08:36] <furrywolf> it actually looks like there's very few parts in common
[19:09:33] <furrywolf> ignore the inside/outside bit, saw it wrong. heh.
[19:10:18] <PetefromTn_> the carriage rotating is kind of a bad thing honestly it was a source of flex that was not really needed.
[19:10:58] <furrywolf> I'm sure it's wonderful if you don't cnc it. :)
[19:11:14] <furrywolf> cnc makes it a redundant axis.
[19:11:16] <PetefromTn_> the brackets for the screws are of no consequence really if you intend to add ballscrews you will be making new mounts for them
[19:11:29] <PetefromTn_> the Z travel is kind of a bitch tho..
[19:11:39] <Tom_L> JT-Shop, i can't find anything on the "%" character resetting defaults but rather indicating the start and end of a program.
[19:12:04] <furrywolf> I don't intend to add ballscrews. the condition and quality of the machine makes me not want to throw money at it.
[19:12:20] <PetefromTn_> as I recall that lever sticking out of the belt box was for a jackscrew setup
[19:12:41] <PetefromTn_> then why are you going to CNC it?
[19:12:59] <furrywolf> I think I can get some acceptable travel rates from the stock leadscrews... just testing one of the motors on the bench today, at 30V instead of the 56V I plan on, I got it to 9K rpm with decent acceleration...
[19:13:11] <furrywolf> because I suck at manual milling. :)
[19:13:16] <Tom_L> JT-Shop, Demarcating a file with percents is optional if the file has an M2 or M30 in it, but is required if not.
[19:13:20] <furrywolf> so if I'm going to have it at all, it's going to be cnc! heh
[19:13:52] <furrywolf> I do not have the patience required to make anything resembling within-tolerance cuts manually.
[19:14:08] <PetefromTn_> well It's up to you but I would personally not have a CNC mill without ballscrews they are cheap enough now it is not a big deal really...
[19:14:42] <furrywolf> I got the mill for $100... ballscrew kits run several times that from what I've seen, plus lots of labor.
[19:15:10] <PetefromTn_> plus motors, drives, PC, breakout boards, tooling, software, etc. etc. etc.
[19:15:15] <furrywolf> it even came on the orange rolling cart, which is good, because I have no place to put it, so it lives in the aisle in my storage unit, and I can roll it out when I need to actually walk down the aisle. :)
[19:16:04] <furrywolf> everything except the breakout board (I'm not going to abbreviate it to bob, because I always think of a different one of my motorized devices) I bought used, and the software is free.
[19:16:06] <PetefromTn_> nothing cheap about building a CNC even when it is cheap parts...
[19:16:23] <furrywolf> got the laptop for $33.... a waterproof toughbook, that I can dump chips on, and then hose them off. :)
[19:17:16] <PetefromTn_> Well good luck with it all man.
[19:17:39] <furrywolf> I was washing it off (it came pretty dirty) when the mailman showed up with a package... the look on his face was utterly priceless. everything should get a toughbook just for amusement value. :)
[19:17:49] <furrywolf> everyone
[19:18:29] <furrywolf> I don't have a lot of money... I really can't just throw money on things for the sake of having nice things...
[19:18:39] * SpeedEvil knows how that works.
[19:19:39] <furrywolf> my sherline (also $100!) has limit switches, and I've never once tripped one except intentionally when homing. heh.
[19:20:30] <furrywolf> my next big purchase is going to have to be batteries for my solar system... one died a couple weeks ago, and the other identical one I got at the same time is on its way out... when it goes I'll have a hard time making 24v.
[19:20:59] <SpeedEvil> :/
[19:21:20] <SpeedEvil> i had a lovely idea for making my own batteries
[19:21:31] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13700.html
[19:21:33] <SpeedEvil> based off that
[19:21:48] <SpeedEvil> Yes, they need to operate at 450C under argon - but it's quite doable
[19:22:05] <SpeedEvil> I couldn't work out how to stop them exploding if jostledthough.
[19:22:08] <furrywolf> lol
[19:22:21] <furrywolf> that's ok, just sell them for stationary applications only. :P
[19:22:48] <SpeedEvil> And the result would be a cloud of Lithium/lead/antimony vapour glowing white hot at 12 bar or so. With fluorine and chlorine added in for extra fun
[19:22:56] <furrywolf> liquid lithium is something I try to avoid working with.
[19:23:39] <SpeedEvil> It was something I could realistically make 10kWh of - for cheaper than I can buy lead-acid batteries
[19:24:12] <furrywolf> you can buy pure lithium metal cheaply?
[19:24:19] <SpeedEvil> Surprisingly.
[19:24:33] <SpeedEvil> Well - you go to your local chemical supplier -and $100/10g.
[19:24:47] <furrywolf> I was looking at lithium hydroxide for some of my batteries, and while it wasn't super expensive, it wasn't cheap either.
[19:24:47] <SpeedEvil> But, vendors in china will ship you 2kg for $180 or so.
[19:25:12] <furrywolf> yeah, that's not cheap, unless these batteries use a lot less than it sounds like.
[19:25:14] <SpeedEvil> which is only about double spot
[19:25:22] <SpeedEvil> 2kg is about 10kWh worth
[19:25:56] <SpeedEvil> The best thing about the above battery - as it's all liquid - and under argon - there is no real wear mechanism.
[19:26:13] <furrywolf> I'm still using my lead-acid batteries... making my ni-fe work is more money than I have...
[19:27:02] <SpeedEvil> :/
[19:27:28] <SpeedEvil> Local minima suck.
[19:27:38] <SpeedEvil> Why LiOH - I thought it was KaOh
[19:29:19] <furrywolf> KOH with a bit of LiOH.
[19:29:35] <furrywolf> apparantly the lioh improves efficiency and cycle life
[19:37:03] <SpeedEvil> ah
[19:43:01] <furrywolf> bbl, going to head to the store.
[20:19:46] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0I-76_pHLQ#t=101 Interesting...
[20:30:30] <zeeshan> http://projects.dimension-x.net/pictures/techproj/max1668/crimped_pin.jpg
[20:30:33] <zeeshan> is this a molex kk pin?
[20:33:16] <jdh> I have a bunch of those
[20:33:28] <Tom_itx> me too but i forget what they're called
[20:33:34] <jdh> molex pins
[20:33:40] <zeeshan> cant say molex man
[20:33:41] <Tom_itx> series
[20:33:45] <zeeshan> molex makes 290231123 different pins
[20:33:46] <zeeshan> hehe
[20:34:41] <jdh> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/08-56-0110/WM1129-ND/417329
[20:34:44] <jdh> I have those
[20:35:45] <zeeshan> holy shit
[20:35:47] <zeeshan> those are expensive
[20:35:51] <zeeshan> 83 cents for a pin
[20:35:51] <zeeshan> haha
[20:38:38] <jdh> gold plated
[20:39:09] <zeeshan> tom seriously jinxed me
[20:39:14] <zeeshan> this is gonna be my 3rd digikey order
[20:39:17] <zeeshan> rofl
[20:39:25] <furrywolf> I bought some pins for $2.40 each last week.
[20:39:35] <zeeshan> jdh
[20:39:36] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0008550130/WM9728TR-ND/3071524
[20:39:38] <zeeshan> these are gold plated
[20:39:43] <zeeshan> but "tape and reel" package
[20:39:50] <jdh> too painful
[20:39:56] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/0008550102/WM2312-ND/172056
[20:39:57] <zeeshan> here we go
[20:39:59] <zeeshan> gold plated also
[20:40:00] <jdh> they have to fit in the connector and they are a bitch to cut
[20:40:03] <zeeshan> but 27 cents
[20:40:44] <jdh> I got the tape and reel the first order.
[20:40:53] <jdh> being cheap is expensive
[20:41:41] <furrywolf> of course, my $2.40 connectors were for 2awg wire and rated for 175A..
[20:41:46] <furrywolf> $2.40 terminals
[20:42:24] <jdh> mine have pretty much no current, 50mV, and are used in 100% humidity.
[20:42:37] <zeeshan> molex is racist
[20:42:40] <zeeshan> calling these kk.
[20:42:51] <zeeshan> i dont see where they got k
[20:45:05] <Tom_itx> do you enter Max Interval or Max Jitter in the BASE_PERIOD and SERVO_PERIOD in the ini file?
[20:45:24] <Tom_itx> i think i've got mine set a bit too high
[20:45:55] <furrywolf> neither, I think. you enter a number sufficiently over the sum of your max jitter and your drive's timing needs.
[20:46:38] <Tom_itx> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/install/Latency_Test.html
[20:47:01] <Tom_itx> The important numbers are the max jitter. In the example above, that is 9075 nanoseconds, or 9.075 microseconds. Record this number, and enter it in Stepconf when it is requested.
[20:47:32] <Tom_itx> leads me to believe i enter max jitter
[20:48:49] <furrywolf> you also need to add the hold timing requirements of your drivers.
[20:49:12] <Tom_itx> i'm using mesa cards
[20:49:27] <Tom_itx> in fact they don't use BASE_THREAD
[20:49:43] <Tom_itx> err BASE_PERIOD
[20:50:17] <furrywolf> dunno then.
[20:50:23] <jfigie> If you don't use a BASE_THREAD i think you enter 0 in the ini file that is what the sim file has
[20:50:52] <Tom_itx> i left base_period out
[20:50:59] <Tom_itx> just using SERVO_PERIOD
[20:51:30] <JP1> Hmm would it be possibile to use COMP to change the output pins of a axis from an M code?
[20:53:09] <jfigie> I am wondering if Meas 5i24 or 6i24 is supported by linuxcnc. Integrator manual does not have them listed but says this is not a complete list check the hostmot2-firmware distribution for up to date lists. So where do I go to check?
[20:53:20] <Tom_itx> jfigie it is
[20:53:20] <jfigie> Mesa*
[20:53:39] <Tom_itx> ask pcw_home
[20:53:54] <Tom_itx> or check their website for supporting software
[20:55:43] <pcw_home> They are supported by master and probably 2.7
[20:56:26] <pcw_home> maybe even 2.6 not sure, support was added fairly early this year
[20:56:27] <atom1> same with the 7i90 ?
[20:56:37] <pcw_home> Yeah
[20:56:50] <Tom_itx> so i should plan on moving to 2.6
[20:57:50] <Tom_itx> what ver is cradek using on his arm board with it?
[20:58:19] <Tom_itx> that's probably something he patched in
[20:59:02] <jfigie> so are all the files in the folder "hostmot2" for a particular mesa bd supported or usable with linuxcnc?
[20:59:13] <Tom_itx> yes
[20:59:39] <jfigie> by folder hostmot2 I mean the one on Mesa website for the card of interest
[20:59:42] <Tom_itx> well i would thing so
[20:59:58] <Tom_itx> hostmot2 runs under linuxcnc so.... yes
[21:13:20] <pcw_home> hm2_spi is in master (but likely rather host specific)
[21:14:54] <pcw_home> I think it uses the spidev driver but jepler needed to patch a number or realtime botches in the driver
[21:27:13] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/U2Eia7w.png
[21:27:19] <zeeshan> can i use p1-15 bottom right
[21:27:21] <zeeshan> (monitor ground)
[21:27:23] <zeeshan> as a shield ground ?
[21:29:03] <jfigie> I would not it is connected to chassis ground by a 20K resistor. That would not make a good shield termination.
[21:30:47] <zeeshan> hehe
[21:30:56] <zeeshan> it drives me insane
[21:31:01] <zeeshan> that none of these moronic drive manufacturers
[21:31:09] <zeeshan> give a shield ground path
[21:31:22] <zeeshan> the only one i've seen with a shield ground path is
[21:31:31] <zeeshan> bosch
[21:31:34] * zeeshan is angry
[21:31:37] <jfigie> Actually I see 3 different ground symbols used on the schematic
[21:31:52] <zeeshan> yes triangle is isolated floating grond
[21:31:53] <zeeshan> ground
[21:32:11] <jfigie> Isolated common, common and chassis
[21:32:13] <zeeshan> the 3 line ground doesn't connect to chassis
[21:32:18] <zeeshan> or earth
[21:32:52] <zeeshan> earth is only connected to the metal chassis
[21:33:06] <zeeshan> so that means i need to run the shield ground wire all the way 5 away
[21:33:11] <zeeshan> 5" from where the connector is
[21:33:36] <jfigie> often shields are connected to chassis
[21:35:12] <zeeshan> yes
[21:35:19] <zeeshan> its just that the chassis ground screw
[21:35:22] <zeeshan> is 5" away from my connector
[21:35:28] <zeeshan> so you have this bare wire floating in space
[21:35:30] <zeeshan> for 5"
[21:35:32] <zeeshan> that makes me upset
[21:36:14] <zeeshan> im mostly upset because i dont have enough 2c 22 sh wire
[21:36:20] <zeeshan> so that 5" is a big deal
[21:36:21] <zeeshan> haha
[21:36:47] <zeeshan> and none of my cat5e cable is shielded
[21:37:48] <jfigie> 5" of wire from the shield is long. Not good for high frequency noise.
[21:38:05] <zeeshan> 5" of shield ground wire
[21:38:09] <zeeshan> not unshielded wire
[21:38:24] <jfigie> yes that is what if meant
[21:38:44] <zeeshan> just to triple check
[21:38:45] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/h5PDqhQ.png
[21:38:59] <zeeshan> the wire that goes from shield around analog+/- wire
[21:39:16] <zeeshan> to chassis gnd
[21:39:29] <zeeshan> youre saying that being exposed makes it suspetible to high frequency noise?
[21:41:54] <Connor> zeeshan: Remember, Only ground 1 side of the shielding.
[21:41:59] <zeeshan> connor yes
[21:42:10] <zeeshan> connor arent you using cat5
[21:42:15] <zeeshan> for your signal wiring
[21:42:15] <jfigie> If the shield ends and goes into a long wire. The wire has inductance.
[21:43:57] <Connor> No. I'm not. I use 18 gauge stranded 4 conductor shielded wire for steppers and step/dir signals. everything else is 24 / 26 gauge individual wire.
[21:44:49] <zeeshan> jfigie: i calculate that a 5" wire ,22awg
[21:44:54] <zeeshan> has 150 nH inductance..
[21:45:12] <zeeshan> at 1000Mhz
[21:45:29] <zeeshan> looks like it doesnt change much with frequency
[21:45:42] * zeeshan is using an odd formula :)
[21:45:52] <zeeshan> connor wait a sec
[21:45:53] <jfigie> I think for low frequency analog differential signals like the analog inputs the shield termination with a long wire is probably OK and it may only need to be connected at one end.
[21:46:08] <zeeshan> you're running the enable pair and step dir pair
[21:46:09] <zeeshan> in 1 cable?
[21:46:28] <Connor> No. Just step/dir
[21:46:34] <zeeshan> ah okay
[21:46:36] <jfigie> Are you using the isolation in the servo drive?
[21:46:56] <Connor> Enable was separate.. But, I'm not even using those now..
[21:46:57] <zeeshan> jlfge yes
[21:47:00] <zeeshan> dont wanna fry the 7i77
[21:47:18] <jfigie> For thing like motor power wires if you are using shielded cable then you should ground shield at both ends
[21:47:18] <zeeshan> connor ah okay
[21:47:44] <jfigie> For high speed digital signals shield needs to be grounded at both ends
[21:48:00] <zeeshan> hmm
[21:48:05] <zeeshan> says not to do that inthe servo manual
[21:48:44] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/A6i2T43.png
[21:50:13] <jfigie> Interesting. I guess I would follow the manual. The drive we make where I work require the motor shield to be grounded at both ends.
[21:50:33] <zeeshan> maybe the motor housing ground
[21:50:36] <zeeshan> doesnt go to a single point earth?
[21:50:41] <zeeshan> i mean single point ground
[21:50:58] * zeeshan doesnt know :)
[21:51:15] <jfigie> Motor housing are required to be connected to earth
[21:52:40] <jfigie> If the shield is connected at only one end there may be problems with conducted and radiated emissions. But that is something you probably dont need to worry about
[22:03:14] <zeeshan> jfigie: your wires
[22:03:18] <zeeshan> going from your interpolator board
[22:03:22] <zeeshan> to your mesa card
[22:03:28] <zeeshan> were they shielded?
[22:03:55] <Tom_L> http://traktoria.org/files/electronics/grounding/wiring_grounding_and_shielding_techniques.pdf
[22:05:54] <zeeshan> tom thats interesting
[22:06:02] <zeeshan> according to that
[22:06:05] <Tom_L> i thought so
[22:06:05] <zeeshan> all you need to do is twist em
[22:06:06] <zeeshan> and thats it.
[22:06:56] <Tom_L> http://www.kbelectronics.com/tech_bulletins/proper-wiring-kb-speed-controls.htm
[22:07:01] <Tom_L> you can compare notes
[22:07:26] <furrywolf> twisting is what makes cat5 work...
[22:08:52] <furrywolf> I'm using 16/4 shielded for drivers... step, dir, +5V, and driver fault. shield grounded at the breakout board end.
[22:09:33] <furrywolf> I figure I might as well e-stop it if any of the drivers reports a fault. (overtemp, shorted motor, etc)
[22:09:50] <zeeshan> i really like that first pdf you posted
[22:09:55] <zeeshan> its nice and simply explained
[22:10:08] <jfigie> zesshan: wire from heidnehain bd to mesa bds were shielded but these are digital signal
[22:10:25] <zeeshan> jfigie: im wondering how you wired it.
[22:10:42] <zeeshan> did you use route a \a b
[22:10:48] <zeeshan> \b z z\
[22:10:50] <jfigie> for analog signals like the +/- 10 V and tach signals the shield is only grounded at one end
[22:10:51] <zeeshan> as twisted pairs in 1 cable?
[22:11:20] <zeeshan> 1 shielded cable that ius
[22:11:23] <zeeshan> *is
[22:11:41] <furrywolf> also, if you're wiring servos, I bought some of
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221263730386 - it's really nice.
[22:11:50] <jfigie> I just used shielded twisted pair wires and I used the shield for the common between the analog bd and the mesa bds.
[22:12:00] <zeeshan> servo wires are already on the machine
[22:12:05] <zeeshan> im leaving it how they came :)
[22:12:25] <furrywolf> that works too. :P
[22:12:40] <zeeshan> jfigie: question is
[22:12:45] <zeeshan> shielded each pair
[22:12:47] <zeeshan> or all 3 pairs
[22:12:57] <zeeshan> :)
[22:13:01] <jfigie> +/- 10V for controlling the velocity of the drives goes from mesa 7i77? to the drives in shielded twisted pair
[22:13:06] <zeeshan> cause if you did all 3 pairs, then i can use cat 5
[22:13:09] <jfigie> grounded at only one end
[22:13:26] <jfigie> I used microphone wire
[22:13:38] <furrywolf> I first bought some cheaper stuff on ebay, claiming to be servo cable, and the seller sent me speaker wire/alarm/communications cable/something else that was stiff, coarse stranded, and had paper thin insulation. yay ebay.
[22:13:40] <jfigie> only 2 pairs + shield
[22:14:02] <zeeshan> i hope we're talking about the same thing
[22:14:13] <jfigie> mine used foil shield + bare drain wire
[22:14:13] <furrywolf> zee: separate things should generally have separate shields, especially if you're putting power and signal in one bundle.
[22:14:19] <zeeshan> im talking about the a b z differential digital signals coming out of heidenhain interpolator
[22:14:29] <zeeshan> that goes to the 7i77 encoder inputs
[22:14:47] <furrywolf> you might want to see what the manufacturer suggests? :)
[22:14:49] <zeeshan> the 5v and ground single will be shielded together
[22:14:53] <zeeshan> furrywolf: it doesnt say :(
[22:15:16] <zeeshan> i know for the analog side of the signal they had an internal and external shield
[22:15:21] <zeeshan> but on the output (digital side)
[22:15:23] <jfigie> yes I used shielded wire for encoder signals because they are digital, high speed and traveled serveral feet
[22:15:26] <zeeshan> theres no mention of shielding.
[22:15:32] <Tom_L> When shielding wires, connect only one end of the shield,
[22:15:32] <Tom_L> preferably the source end. Connecting both ends of a shield will
[22:15:32] <Tom_L> result in ground loo
[22:16:11] <Tom_L> ps.
[22:16:17] <jfigie> but if it is a high speed signal the shield needs to be connected at both ends
[22:16:30] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/QPd16Km.png
[22:16:35] <zeeshan> look at that plz :D
[22:16:46] <zeeshan> input is the analog side coming from the glass scales.
[22:16:51] <zeeshan> output is after the interpolator board
[22:17:47] <zeeshan> 1 is phase a, 2 is phase b, 0 is phase z.
[22:18:07] <furrywolf> I'd shield the analog stuff separately, assuming it's quite low level... buffered digital stuff can probably all share a shield.
[22:18:07] <jfigie> but here you have differential signals
[22:18:24] <zeeshan> the analog stuff i cant control
[22:18:30] <zeeshan> its a factory wire coming from the glass scale
[22:18:35] <zeeshan> its just 1 cable. with multiple pairs
[22:18:41] <zeeshan> but it has internal and external shielding.
[22:18:49] <zeeshan> each pair has an internal shield.
[22:18:51] <furrywolf> or used twisted pair, making sure each a/b pair is on a pair in the cable.
[22:18:54] <jfigie> so it is different than the output of the heidenhain bd. I my case the signals are just TTL single ended so I need a good returen
[22:18:55] <zeeshan> and the whole cable has an external shield
[22:19:01] <Tom_L> http://www.celectronics.com/seminar/sample/IEEE11-9-05.pdf
[22:19:01] <furrywolf> ok, so they did it the way I'd have done it. :P
[22:19:08] <zeeshan> yes :)
[22:19:33] <furrywolf> as a general rule, as long as you can still fit the cable in the connectors, you can't have too good of shielding. :P
[22:19:35] <zeeshan> i just realized
[22:19:38] <zeeshan> this shielded wire i bought is a pos
[22:19:41] <zeeshan> its not even twisted.
[22:19:53] <furrywolf> ebay / big box store?
[22:19:56] <zeeshan> big box store
[22:19:57] <zeeshan> lol
[22:20:09] <zeeshan> home depot special
[22:20:14] <furrywolf> home dep
[22:20:14] <furrywolf> lol
[22:20:18] <furrywolf> I was going to say that...
[22:20:34] <Tom_L> http://iamechatronics.com/notes/general-engineering/237-electrical-signal-and-control-wiring
[22:20:35] <furrywolf> they've also been caught selling aluminum wire as copper wire.
[22:20:40] <Tom_L> you might find that one useful
[22:20:49] <zeeshan> http://iamechatronics.com/images/CommonImgs/GenEng/Instrumentation_Connections/Signal_Control_Wiring_Fig_027.JPG
[22:20:55] <zeeshan> sexy wiring
[22:21:29] <zeeshan> i dont use ferrules in the screwless blocks
[22:21:40] <furrywolf> tom: it's not very useful with an empty (except for some title about facebook) white box with no way to close it covering the page.
[22:21:43] <zeeshan> it takes a good 20 lb of force
[22:21:46] <zeeshan> to rip the strands out
[22:22:00] <Tom_L> furrywolf, spank your brouser
[22:22:01] <zeeshan> i bet ferrules would be better. maybe i should use ferrules :/
[22:22:18] <furrywolf> I'm guessing it contains some kind of useless garbage that adblock is making go away. :P
[22:22:51] <furrywolf> I have half a moving box of din rail terminal blocks like that in storage somewhere...
[22:23:08] <zeeshan> for ferrules do you _have_ to use a crimper like this:
[22:23:09] <zeeshan> https://www.google.ca/search?q=ferrule+crimper&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=45eXVN7DIoSfyQSK_ICYAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=1099
[22:23:16] <zeeshan> the round style
[22:23:28] <zeeshan> http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1466900493/NEW-0-25-6mm2-font-b-Terminal-b-font-font-b-Crimping-b-font-font-b.jpg
[22:24:17] <furrywolf> tinning is cheaper. :)
[22:24:34] <zeeshan> that's true :)
[22:24:59] <furrywolf> I have a lot of crimpers, but not one of those.
[22:25:13] <furrywolf> I have crimpers for everything from teeeeeeny tiny connector pins through 750mcm. :)
[22:25:34] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.ca/GB-GS-388-8-Inch-Crimping-Electrical/dp/B00079LN1Y
[22:25:39] <zeeshan> i have a few styles
[22:25:43] <zeeshan> i think this style might do ferrules too
[22:25:47] <ssi> OMG I LOVE CRIMPERS
[22:25:58] <ssi> I have so many crimpers
[22:26:00] <zeeshan> ssi will this styler do ferrules?
[22:26:15] <ssi> eh
[22:26:16] <ssi> not well
[22:26:20] <ssi> hang on
[22:26:52] <Connor> zeeshan: I have a crimper that crimps them flat.. it's for coax or something.. but.. it works. :)
[22:26:58] <jdh> I have weidmuller ferrule crimpers. works great
[22:27:01] <ssi> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Wiring_Solutions/Wire_End_Connectors/Wire_Stripping_-a-_Crimping_Tools/DN-CT-D4
[22:27:01] <zeeshan> haha
[22:27:04] <ssi> you want that die
[22:27:08] <ssi> and their nice ratcheting crimper
[22:27:29] <furrywolf> http://store.crimptools.com/thomas-betts-crimping-tools/5128-13642m-hydraulic-crimp-head-ms25441-1-mfg-thomas-betts-condition-new-surplus-thomas-amp-betts-hydraulic-crimp-head-uses-intercha.html when I have to crimp big lugs. :)
[22:28:02] <ssi> I have a hammer-crimper for big lugs, but I have a friend with a hydraulic one I can borrow now
[22:28:16] <ssi> in the past when I needed battery cables made up I had another friend make them at delta for me :D
[22:28:23] <zeeshan> me too
[22:28:27] <zeeshan> hammer one works good
[22:28:31] <ssi> yea it's ok
[22:28:33] <zeeshan> does it leave a square dimple?
[22:28:41] <zeeshan> theres 2 styles i have
[22:28:45] <ssi> it's more like a triangle with notches
[22:28:48] <zeeshan> one is an \/
[22:28:51] <ssi> yeah
[22:28:54] <zeeshan> the other is \___/
[22:28:59] <zeeshan> big _____
[22:29:05] <zeeshan> like 1/4"
[22:29:15] <furrywolf> I have the t&b one which uses square-shaped hex crimp dies, and a burndy hypress which uses round-shaped hex crimp dies...
[22:29:53] <ssi> btw you all need one of these
[22:29:53] <ssi> http://www.dmctools.com/store/catalog.asp?PRODUCT_ID=557174&BACK=%2Fstore%2Fcatalog%2Easp%3FKEYWORD%3Dafm8
[22:30:04] <ssi> and the appropriate positioners for D-sub
[22:30:04] <furrywolf> http://www.specialized.net/Specialized/Y35-Burndy-HYPRESS-Hydraulic-Crimper--Hydraulic-Crimping-Tool-6424.aspx
[22:30:08] <ssi> will change your life :D
[22:30:13] <furrywolf> it's currently out of order due to needing new pump seals
[22:30:13] <zeeshan> you guys are crimping nerds
[22:30:14] <zeeshan> jeez
[22:30:16] <zeeshan> all these crimping tools
[22:30:18] <ssi> YES
[22:30:22] <ssi> SO MANY CRIMPING TOOLS
[22:30:23] <jdh> I have that DMC at work
[22:30:24] <zeeshan> hahaha
[22:30:34] <zeeshan> the only crimper i thought that was bad ass
[22:30:38] <zeeshan> was the hydraulic one at eaton
[22:30:41] <zeeshan> for 2000 mcm cable
[22:30:44] <ssi> EATON ICE CREAM
[22:30:50] <zeeshan> lemme show you!
[22:30:56] <furrywolf> zee: just wait until you waste a week tracking down a problem that turns out to be a crappy crimp hidden inside something. then you'll make sure you have the right tool too. :P
[22:31:01] <ssi> 2000 1900?
[22:31:06] <zeeshan> oh trust me furry i know
[22:31:13] <zeeshan> race car harneses
[22:31:14] <furrywolf> 2000mcm? fun. I only have dies up to 750mcm. I've never used the largest one. :P
[22:31:20] <zeeshan> failed ground terminal = aslkjasdkjsadlksadjlkasdjlasdjk
[22:31:21] <ssi> furrywolf: I build airplanes
[22:31:24] <ssi> I have lots of crimp tools :P
[22:31:48] <furrywolf> race car harnesses.... crimped with harbor freight pliers, and the wires fall out as soon as you tough them? or do you mean real race cars, not the ones at the local drag strip? :P
[22:31:55] <furrywolf> s/tough/touch
[22:32:06] <zeeshan> not a joe schmoe wiring harness
[22:32:14] <zeeshan> and certainly not the ricer brand painless harness :)
[22:32:25] <zeeshan> though painless does make some decent stuff :)
[22:32:31] <furrywolf> ssi: I have that crimper, but with a little spinny wheel thing on the back side to properly position different contacts.
[22:32:42] <ssi> furrywolf: yeah that's the positioner
[22:32:49] <ssi> there's dozens of different ones for different pins
[22:32:57] <zeeshan> i cant find the crimper photo
[22:32:59] <zeeshan> but idid find this
[22:32:59] <zeeshan> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/3FC67967-6C17-494D-A3A7-FD9E7292EE55-2301-0000022C0117D1D9_zpsb6c30cb5.jpg
[22:33:00] <zeeshan> lol
[22:33:02] <ssi> I have the crimper in a pelican box with eight positioners
[22:33:05] <zeeshan> guess that cable size
[22:33:12] <furrywolf> mine's a lot older though, and doesn't have as many shiny bits.
[22:33:23] <ssi> I only use three of them, the K13 for D-sub, male and female, and the K41 and K42 which do male and female high density dsub
[22:33:39] <ssi> if yours is the turret with three holes that are red, green, and blue
[22:33:43] <ssi> then it's the AF8, the big one
[22:33:45] <ssi> and I have that one too :P
[22:33:46] <furrywolf> I still find myself using my old t&b sta-kon crimper for 95% of crimping. :)
[22:34:10] <furrywolf> 1200mcm
[22:34:14] <zeeshan> no way
[22:34:14] <zeeshan> lol
[22:34:23] <zeeshan> its 2" in diameter
[22:34:27] <zeeshan> its slightly over 2000mcm
[22:34:31] <zeeshan> i think 2500
[22:34:37] <furrywolf> heh
[22:34:40] <zeeshan> i lifted one of those cables
[22:34:47] <zeeshan> they're effing heavy
[22:34:55] <ssi> zeeshan:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B5bpKgGIQAALxXA.jpg:large
[22:34:56] <ssi> WING BITS
[22:35:01] <zeeshan> thats about 1500 lb of wire tehre
[22:35:01] <ssi> got all the wood for them
[22:35:16] <zeeshan> nice!
[22:35:22] <zeeshan> youve been busy in the shop
[22:35:22] <zeeshan> :C
[22:35:25] <ssi> always
[22:35:31] <ssi> finished up the upholstery for the cherokee tonight
[22:35:39] <ssi> been donig some rifle work on the southbend
[22:35:48] <furrywolf> http://www.specialized.net/Specialized//Assets/ProductImages/272X190_PLI.jpg rarely the perfect tool, but they're indestructable, comfortable, and crimp tight.
[22:36:02] <ssi> fixed the brakes and the fuel pump on the pitts
[22:36:07] <zeeshan> thats the one ihave
[22:36:07] <zeeshan> :D
[22:36:16] <ssi> next weekend I'll probably start building the pitts wings
[22:37:40] * furrywolf has done very little work on aircraft
[22:37:47] <zeeshan> my gox
[22:37:49] <zeeshan> god
[22:37:50] <furrywolf> aircraft are expensive.
[22:37:55] <zeeshan> 1000' of cat5e shielded
[22:37:56] <zeeshan> $50
[22:37:56] <zeeshan> haha
[22:37:57] <ssi> depends on how you do it
[22:38:19] <furrywolf> zee: be wary of fake wire. there's been a lot of fake wire lately, including cat5.
[22:38:38] <furrywolf> if I had the time and money, I'd love building a skyjeep kit. :P
[22:38:54] * furrywolf wants a plane that takes off in 50ft!
[22:39:16] <ssi> yeah me too, but I'd probably be looking at a superstol
[22:39:22] <zeeshan> is all cat5e solidwire?
[22:39:30] <ssi> no
[22:39:34] <furrywolf> no, some is stranded
[22:39:37] <zeeshan> how do you find out
[22:39:42] <furrywolf> and some of the fake stuff is ALUMINUM.
[22:40:36] <furrywolf> ssi:
http://www.zenithair.com/stolch701/index1.html
[22:40:44] <ssi> yea I'm familiar with the zenith
[22:41:08] <ssi> actually the plane I got my license in was an alarus ch2000, which is a certified version of a zenith
[22:41:37] <ssi> http://www.zenair.com/ch-2000-vla-index.html
[22:42:42] <ssi> I've been building an RV-7 for the last almost eight years :/
[22:42:49] <ssi> and now I'm building a Pitts S-1-SS
[22:42:50] <zeeshan> connor did you not buy your shielded twisted pair from homedepot?
[22:43:23] <Connor> zeeshan: I got the 4 pair 18 gauge shield from Home Depot. yes.. but.. not twisted pair.
[22:43:30] <zeeshan> ah
[22:43:34] <zeeshan> :/
[22:43:34] <Connor> again, I'm not using any twisted pair.
[22:43:38] <furrywolf> getting a license is one of the many parts of flying (i.e. all of them) that I can't afford.
[22:43:47] <zeeshan> where the heck do you buy 2 conductor twisted pair
[22:43:48] <zeeshan> shielded wire
[22:43:51] <ssi> nobody can really afford it :P
[22:43:53] <zeeshan> without relying on the internet!
[22:44:01] <Connor> No clue.
[22:44:05] <furrywolf> anyone that does fire alarms, intercoms, etc
[22:44:07] <ssi> zeeshan: home depot sells bell wire
[22:44:29] <furrywolf> commercial, not residential.
[22:44:30] <zeeshan> ssi its solid though
[22:44:30] <zeeshan> :(
[22:44:34] <Connor> but you want stranded.. most of that stuff is solid core.
[22:44:42] <furrywolf> yes, that it is.
[22:44:55] <ssi> zeeshan: if you really want it
[22:45:00] <ssi> I can show you where to get it
[22:45:01] <Connor> I have some 28 gauge 2 conductor shielded.. no twisted I got from HD..
[22:45:02] <ssi> the GOOD stuff
[22:45:04] <ssi> but it's expensive
[22:45:13] <furrywolf> anyone still sell twinax? :)
[22:45:20] <zeeshan> link ssi
[22:45:40] <ssi> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/edmotefzel.php?clickkey=3524
[22:45:42] <furrywolf> good computer power cords are 18/3 or 16/3 shielded
[22:45:53] <furrywolf> it's /3 not /2, but it's flexible and shielded...
[22:45:58] <zeeshan> per foot
[22:46:00] <zeeshan> holy cow
[22:46:08] <ssi> it's GOOD stuff
[22:46:20] <ssi> silver plated conductors, tefzel insulation, shield
[22:46:26] <furrywolf> that's actually a lot less obscene than I was expecting.
[22:46:47] <ssi> I get about 15% off of that price I think
[22:47:03] <furrywolf> why is 18/2 more expensive than 16/2? :)
[22:47:22] <ssi> heh that happens with this stuff sometimes
[22:47:30] <ssi> depends on demand I think
[22:47:37] <skunkworks> just buy a 1000ft roll of cat5 shielded/stranded.. last you forever...
[22:47:49] <ssi> like -3 size AN fittings are more expensive (considerably) than -4
[22:48:03] <ssi> skunkworks: I've never seen shielded cat5
[22:48:05] <zeeshan> haha yea
[22:48:08] <zeeshan> -3 is hard to find locally
[22:48:15] <ssi> spruce carries them
[22:48:17] <furrywolf> ssi: it exists
[22:48:17] <ssi> but they cost more
[22:48:21] <zeeshan> thats why i use on the turbo oil inlet
[22:48:21] <ssi> zeeshan: oh you'll like this
[22:48:27] <zeeshan> *what
[22:48:29] <furrywolf> yeah, -3 is rare. I used -6 on my last project.
[22:48:31] <skunkworks> ssi: pretty sure that is what I have at work - have to look.
[22:48:43] <ssi> so two weeks ago we pulled the pitts out to run it, and I put brake fluid in it to try to get them working
[22:48:48] <ssi> and it just leaked everywhere
[22:48:54] <ssi> so last night we pulled the side panels off to look at the brakes
[22:48:57] <ssi> and there's no lines
[22:49:14] <ssi> the reservoir has a hardline down to a bulkhead T, and there's no lines from the T to the master cyls on the pedals
[22:49:21] <ssi> so I poured fluid in
[22:49:25] <ssi> and it just poured out the bottom
[22:49:37] <zeeshan> im just gonna use homedepot wire
[22:49:38] <zeeshan> :/
[22:49:41] <zeeshan> solid wire sux though
[22:50:07] <zeeshan> rofl
[22:50:08] <ssi> so between BJ and I, we managed to scrounge together 2' of 303 hose in -3 size, four -3 fittings and two -3 pipe to AN elbows
[22:50:08] <zeeshan> ssi
[22:50:11] <ssi> and got the lines made
[22:50:14] <ssi> now I has brakez
[22:50:28] <furrywolf> ssi: this is how a recent vehicle purchase of mine came:
http://fw.bushytails.net/whatpartdoesn%27tbelong.jpg
[22:50:46] <ssi> haha
[22:51:01] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/whatpartdoesn%27tbelong2.jpg
[22:51:25] <furrywolf> it had been being driven like that for years, apparantly.
[22:51:31] <LeelooMinai> So that's what those are for...
[22:51:55] <furrywolf> EVERY SINGLE REPAIR that I've done on this car has been someone else's repair.
[22:52:21] <ssi> seems legit
[22:52:46] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: what are you using
[22:52:49] <zeeshan> for shielded twisted pair wire?
[22:52:54] <furrywolf> the clamp was there because the piston had popped out of the caliper. the piston had popped out of the caliper because it had no brake pads. it had no brake pads because someone had put on the wrong brake rotors, a half inch thinner than the correct ones, allowing the pads to just fall out between the rotor and the backing plate.
[22:53:18] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: cat5 cable cut to pieces
[22:53:24] <zeeshan> shielded cat5?
[22:53:29] <LeelooMinai> Yes
[22:53:32] <zeeshan> stranded
[22:53:33] <zeeshan> or solid
[22:53:48] <LeelooMinai> this one is stranded
[22:53:52] <zeeshan> where did you buy!
[22:54:12] <zeeshan> please tell me --- that you bought it locally
[22:54:19] <LeelooMinai> I just boght some long legth, I think it was from monoprice
[22:54:24] <zeeshan> :(
[22:54:36] <zeeshan> it'll take forever to get it
[22:54:38] <LeelooMinai> You want STP basically
[22:54:56] <furrywolf> I miss monoprice... I used to shop there a lot, but then they stopped the $6 overnight shipping up here.
[22:55:15] <zeeshan> http://www.sayal.com/STORE/View_SPEC.asp?SKU=35834
[22:55:18] <zeeshan> this is stp cable
[22:55:20] <zeeshan> and its local
[22:55:20] <skunkworks> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CAT-5-CAT-5E-BULK-ETHERNET-CABLE-500-FT-STRANDED-SHIELDED-GRAY-/111031109643?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item19d9f8480b
[22:55:45] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Yes, as you can see there's this foil there + bare wire and they let you shield the rest.
[22:56:15] <zeeshan> i guess you leave the unused pairs inthere
[22:57:22] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: YOu can take it off too:)
[22:57:25] <furrywolf> no, you pull very very hard and they come out. :P
[22:57:46] <zeeshan> they do?:)
[22:58:11] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: is all STP supposed to be multistrand?
[22:58:13] <LeelooMinai> Yes - my trick is to clamp one end to the vise:)
[22:58:19] <zeeshan> as opposed to solid core
[22:58:21] <furrywolf> I've seen shielded cat5, but never worked with it. it has funky metal-shrouded rj45 plugs for the shield.
[22:59:22] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: I don't think it's related... I thought that non-solid core gives you mostly flexibility and less possibility for break when you bend it.
[22:59:32] <zeeshan> youre right
[22:59:34] <zeeshan> thats why i want stranded
[22:59:42] <zeeshan> especially for dinky little 22awg
[22:59:45] <zeeshan> that stuff breaks easily :)
[23:00:11] <furrywolf> again, just to repeat myself, be VERY WARY of fake cat5. even home depot has been caught selling it.
[23:00:13] <zeeshan> i guess ill take some crimpers with me
[23:00:18] <zeeshan> and go chop it u
[23:00:20] <zeeshan> *up
[23:00:28] <furrywolf> it's copper clad aluiminum instead of solid copper, and breaks after being flexxed about three times.
[23:00:40] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Here's my "improved" cnc box:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/15967931302/ :)
[23:01:02] <zeeshan> looking great!
[23:01:15] <zeeshan> i like that energy meter
[23:01:16] <LeelooMinai> I have the on off switch now and this power meter in there.
[23:01:36] <LeelooMinai> And when closed:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/15966607181/
[23:01:46] <LeelooMinai> On the top is fan controller.
[23:01:54] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/fakewire02.jpg give it the scrape test. if it looks like that, return it! (that picture being of "100% pure oxygen-free copper" wire on ebay)
[23:02:14] <zeeshan> furry wolf
[23:02:19] <zeeshan> chopping it should showa copper core
[23:02:19] <zeeshan> :)
[23:02:22] <LeelooMinai> Is that steel? :p
[23:02:34] <furrywolf> leeloo: aluminum
[23:02:41] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: got a pic of the back?
[23:02:46] <zeeshan> i wanna see your fan setup
[23:02:59] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/15650776467/in/photostream/
[23:03:03] <zeeshan> btw that looks GREAT
[23:03:04] <zeeshan> the wiring
[23:03:25] <LeelooMinai> I have hole on the back with mesh to stop hair and stuff getting in and the fan is on the side, also with a mesh.
[23:03:47] <zeeshan> you ended up finding the foam filter?
[23:03:55] <furrywolf> fact: ebay sellers have absolutely no qualms about blatantly misrepresenting their goods.
[23:04:18] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/15543982890/
[23:04:29] <LeelooMinai> No, I stole piece of this material from mom.
[23:04:33] <LeelooMinai> It was for windows.
[23:04:37] <zeeshan> haha
[23:04:53] <LeelooMinai> It's like a pretty dense mesh - kind of like for silkscreening
[23:05:04] <zeeshan> looks good
[23:05:19] <LeelooMinai> Still no table and spindle though:)
[23:05:26] <zeeshan> dont start again
[23:05:27] <zeeshan> haha
[23:05:32] <zeeshan> please!
[23:05:36] <LeelooMinai> So in the meantime I design FPGA pcb.
[23:06:31] <zeeshan> im using this nonsense for filters:
[23:07:20] <furrywolf> scotchbrite floor scrubber pads make good chip filters
[23:07:37] <furrywolf> as well as working well for removing rust. :)
[23:07:38] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16051150846/
[23:07:42] <LeelooMinai> I thought of using some vaccuum cleaner hepa filter, but could not find anything cheap
[23:07:57] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: the reason i asked about the filter
[23:08:02] <zeeshan> the other day i bought an air purifier
[23:08:13] <zeeshan> and the replacement filter is 24"x7"~
[23:08:26] <zeeshan> 1/8" thick. foam/mesh
[23:08:28] <zeeshan> $8 replacement
[23:08:36] <skunkworks> pex plumbing
[23:09:12] <zeeshan> man i cant wait to get all the little dinky wiring done
[23:09:16] <zeeshan> so i can get this shit out of my bedroom
[23:09:25] <zeeshan> gf has been on my case :)
[23:09:40] <furrywolf> skunkworks: ?
[23:09:57] <skunkworks> LeelooMinai wire control
[23:10:17] <LeelooMinai> lol
[23:10:28] <LeelooMinai> I took it off eventually
[23:10:39] * furrywolf is currently single, so doesn't have that problem....
[23:10:51] <furrywolf> (plus, the last gf had a bedroom full of harley parts!)
[23:10:58] <zeeshan> haha
[23:10:59] <zeeshan> nice
[23:11:08] <zeeshan> my gf does arts and crafts stuff
[23:11:11] <zeeshan> so room is full of that
[23:11:17] <LeelooMinai> She was stealing them at night from the garage maybe
[23:11:19] <furrywolf> ah. garbage. :P
[23:11:27] <zeeshan> i broke her scissors the other day
[23:11:37] <zeeshan> being lazy and trying to cut a plastic package
[23:11:38] <zeeshan> haha
[23:11:56] <zeeshan> had to give her my stainless scissors from the garage :(
[23:12:10] <ssi> buy her nicer scissors for xmas
[23:12:14] <ssi> or whatev
[23:12:23] <LeelooMinai> Like those $1000 ones from ebay
[23:12:41] <zeeshan> i bought her some already
[23:12:44] <ssi> I bought a really nice pair of scissors that cut leather when I started doing upholstery work
[23:12:47] <zeeshan> they should be here in jan
[23:12:53] <ssi> and within like three hours I had dropped them and put a big nick in the blade :(
[23:13:17] <zeeshan> http://mizutaniscissors.com/shop/sword/sword-dama-d-07/
[23:13:18] <zeeshan> those
[23:13:29] <zeeshan> (yea right)
[23:13:40] <ssi> I need to get a rigging knife, and I was looking at ceramic ones
[23:13:44] <ssi> I kinda want a ceramic knife realbad
[23:14:19] <furrywolf> if you drop the ceramic knife, you'll have an even bigger nick the blade. :P
[23:14:34] <furrywolf> lack of durability is a common complaint.
[23:14:36] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Pro-ASAMI-Hair-Cutting-Styling-Shears-Scissors-ART6146-/190707491730
[23:14:38] <zeeshan> i bought those
[23:14:51] <LeelooMinai> lol...
[23:14:55] <LeelooMinai> A bit overpriced
[23:14:56] <ssi> yeah
[23:15:04] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: thats the point of a gift
[23:15:05] <zeeshan> :P
[23:15:12] <ssi> but if I drop it on a sailboat I'll have a lost knife problem more than a nicked blade problem
[23:15:15] * furrywolf would prefer to be non-single, but mature, intelligent, sane, practical women who like wolfies and are good with a strapon are really hard to find...
[23:15:18] <zeeshan> theyre made in japan
[23:15:43] <furrywolf> $60 for a pair of scissors? ouch
[23:16:19] <LeelooMinai> I bought mom scissors from aliexpress once, but they were like $20
[23:17:10] <LeelooMinai> That's where I drew the line:)
[23:17:31] <zeeshan> well shit
[23:17:35] <zeeshan> she bought me a drill press
[23:17:39] <zeeshan> least i can do :)
[23:18:41] <furrywolf> lol
[23:19:48] <zeeshan> i really hope this stp cable is stranded
[23:19:48] <LeelooMinai> I guess she was robbed in this exchange
[23:19:56] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: ROFL
[23:23:51] <zeeshan> if you have 5v digital signal pairs
[23:24:00] <zeeshan> is it okay to run em in twisted form side by side
[23:24:04] <zeeshan> in one shield?
[23:24:58] <LeelooMinai> Not ideal, but may work - who knows
[23:25:08] <LeelooMinai> Depends on many factors
[23:25:21] <LeelooMinai> Length, frequency
[23:25:23] <zeeshan> STP has a shield for each pair?
[23:25:29] * furrywolf usually buys substantially smaller devices when a motorized gift is desired
[23:25:34] <LeelooMinai> No, outide all of them
[23:26:21] <ssi> MAYBE THATS WHY YOU'RE SINGLE
[23:26:36] <furrywolf> lol
[23:26:42] <zeeshan> frequency is 25 kHz.
[23:26:48] <zeeshan> length is 2 feet
[23:26:53] <zeeshan> or 1.5 ft
[23:27:04] <zeeshan> i dunno if the cross talk is a big deal.
[23:27:25] <ssi> whoa that was weird
[23:28:15] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Doubt it will cause problems
[23:28:32] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: i take it that the cross talk over a long span
[23:28:34] <zeeshan> is a bigger problem?
[23:28:50] <zeeshan> what i don't understand is, in a twisted pair
[23:28:55] <zeeshan> how can they cross-talk
[23:29:08] <zeeshan> won't the signals cancel out?
[23:29:20] <zeeshan> on top of that, each one of my pairs is a differential signal.
[23:29:22] <LeelooMinai> Why would they?
[23:29:27] <furrywolf> zee: digital is less succeptable to noise, and should be fine.
[23:29:30] <toastyde1th> 25khz is negligible for crosstalk
[23:29:54] <zeeshan> is there math theory behind this toastyde1th?
[23:29:55] <LeelooMinai> DIfferential pairs should be more imune
[23:30:02] <furrywolf> hrmm, either I'm lagging really badly or freenode is...
[23:30:10] <toastyde1th> zeeshan, crosstalk is capacative coupling between two wires
[23:30:15] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Not that you mentioned they are differential:)
[23:30:20] <toastyde1th> and is thus frequency-dependant
[23:30:58] <toastyde1th> it causes problems in digital signals because the high-frequency components of the square wave are responsible for the fast rise time, but also bleed over the most
[23:30:58] <LeelooMinai> The higher frequency, the more capacitive coupling behaves like a short
[23:31:01] <furrywolf> " CTCP PING reply from furrywolf: 0.606772 seconds" "CTCP PING reply from ssi: 132.971237 seconds" someone needs to poke freenode a bit. :)
[23:31:09] <zeeshan> is it a function of length too?
[23:31:12] <toastyde1th> yes
[23:31:15] <ssi> it may just be me actually
[23:31:21] <ssi> I lagged out, and I'm on the world's worst internets :(
[23:31:33] <furrywolf> ssi: "*** CTCP PING reply from zeeshan: 108.206528 seconds" it's not just you. :)
[23:31:41] <zeeshan> so in this case
[23:31:43] <toastyde1th> the longer the wires run next to each other, the bigger the capacator they form
[23:31:47] <zeeshan> pcbs have massive capacitive coupling
[23:31:50] <zeeshan> for traces?
[23:31:51] <toastyde1th> and the faster the problem sets up
[23:32:02] <toastyde1th> what do you mean by "massive"
[23:32:12] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: No... the traces there are short:)
[23:32:20] <zeeshan> toastyde1th: i guess i need to ask this
[23:32:28] <zeeshan> does twisting the wire reduce it's capacitance
[23:32:29] <zeeshan> lol
[23:32:29] <toastyde1th> the traces are so short that the farad value of the capacator is in like, the picofarads
[23:32:29] <ssi> pcbs have tiny amounts of capacitance
[23:32:36] <ssi> which becomes massive at very high freqs
[23:33:02] <toastyde1th> the twisting helps keep the coupling between the TX and ground for each pair
[23:33:14] <toastyde1th> it reduces the crosstalk between two different tx lines
[23:33:19] <ssi> and also for common mode noise rejection
[23:34:05] * furrywolf notes that ethernet is baseband and very, very high frequency
[23:34:08] <zeeshan> toastyde1th: say you have a square wave going to through one line of the twisted pair, and since it's a differential signal, you have the inverse of this going out of the other line
[23:34:15] <zeeshan> wouldn't the electric field cancel out for the twisted pair then
[23:34:45] <toastyde1th> you're confused on where crosstalk matters
[23:34:48] <ssi> no, but some of the magnetics do, and that's part of the point
[23:35:02] <toastyde1th> first, you have twice the potential difference and thus twice the coupling
[23:35:12] <toastyde1th> you gain no transmission distance
[23:35:42] <toastyde1th> however, we don't talk about "crosstalk" on the lines that actually carry a signal - we talk about crosstalk for two different lines carrying two _different_ signals
[23:35:52] <zeeshan> ah
[23:36:17] <toastyde1th> so in the crosstalk situation you'd care about, you'd have four/six wires - tx+/tx-/gnd, twice
[23:36:44] <toastyde1th> (four if you're doing something weird with the ground)
[23:38:21] <zeeshan> so in a typical cat 5 cable
[23:38:31] <zeeshan> the 'crosstalk' is between the 4 pairs.
[23:38:37] <toastyde1th> yes
[23:38:57] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[23:40:03] <zeeshan> is there a formula where you can specify length of wire, frequency of signal
[23:40:20] <zeeshan> and get farads :p
[23:40:41] <furrywolf> transmission line theory is a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately.
[23:40:47] <zeeshan> hehe
[23:40:49] <toastyde1th> the farad rating of the cap a pair of wires forms is just that
[23:41:05] <toastyde1th> you can calculate the farad value, but that's not really going to help
[23:41:20] <zeeshan> how do you know when interference becomes a problem then?
[23:41:23] <zeeshan> what parameter determines
[23:41:26] <zeeshan> *that
[23:41:30] <LeelooMinai> If things stop working
[23:41:34] <zeeshan> thats the redneck way.
[23:41:38] <zeeshan> theres always a theoretical way
[23:41:40] <zeeshan> :-)
[23:41:53] <LeelooMinai> Rednecks are great EE engineeeirs
[23:41:54] <zeeshan> you're not gonna send wiring in space
[23:41:58] <zeeshan> and try it out
[23:41:59] <LeelooMinai> Well, maybe not:)
[23:42:21] <toastyde1th> the ballpark is looking at the wavelength of the highest frequency you care about vs. the length of the run
[23:43:05] <toastyde1th> 25khz is a couple meters
[23:43:15] <toastyde1th> depending on what you're transmitting through
[23:43:20] <zeeshan> square wave
[23:43:27] <toastyde1th> so if you have a data cable running through a building, it matters
[23:43:37] <toastyde1th> if you have a pcb or one/two foot wire
[23:43:40] <toastyde1th> it's essentially DC
[23:45:10] <zeeshan> heres a situation
[23:45:17] <zeeshan> you got twisted pairs
[23:45:21] <zeeshan> *4 of them.
[23:45:34] <zeeshan> 3 of them are transmitting data at 25kHz
[23:45:44] <zeeshan> 2 of them are carrying a constant 5v and gnd.
[23:45:51] <zeeshan> 1 of them. not two fo them.
[23:46:06] <toastyde1th> k, i would not worry about crosstalk there, especially on a digital signal
[23:46:17] <zeeshan> what if that 1 pair is now 10000 v and gnd
[23:46:38] <toastyde1th> you're going to melt the wire because the insulation isn't rated that high on cat5
[23:46:41] <zeeshan> hahaha
[23:46:44] <zeeshan> lets say it was.
[23:46:56] <zeeshan> im wondering of the constant voltage causes an issues
[23:46:56] <toastyde1th> sure
[23:47:02] <zeeshan> *if
[23:47:11] <toastyde1th> coupling is frequency dependant and increases the higher the frequency is
[23:47:20] <toastyde1th> so what frequency is this 10kV line
[23:47:26] <zeeshan> its constant DC
[23:47:29] <toastyde1th> right
[23:47:33] <toastyde1th> so how much coupling is there
[23:47:43] <zeeshan> should be zero?
[23:47:46] <toastyde1th> yep
[23:47:48] <zeeshan> because the signal isnt changing with time
[23:47:52] <toastyde1th> correct
[23:48:04] <zeeshan> but in reality, nothing stays constant
[23:48:14] <zeeshan> what if it flucates 10000 to 10001 v
[23:48:21] <zeeshan> every sec
[23:48:25] <zeeshan> again i think that wouldnt matter
[23:48:27] <toastyde1th> 1 hz is essentially dc
[23:48:28] <zeeshan> cause its such a low freq
[23:48:33] <toastyde1th> and the voltage difference is 1v
[23:48:44] <zeeshan> okay now i can see why these audio engineers are crazy
[23:48:49] <furrywolf> lots of things are constant, like taxes, death, and stupidity.
[23:49:07] <furrywolf> bbl, sleep
[23:49:18] <zeeshan> noise is interesting.
[23:49:23] <toastyde1th> also keep in mind
[23:49:39] <toastyde1th> digital signals have very different problems than analog signals
[23:49:52] <zeeshan> so the type of waveform
[23:49:59] <zeeshan> is important too?
[23:50:03] <toastyde1th> crosstalk introduces jitter, and every physical transmission spec has a max jitter
[23:50:16] <toastyde1th> the faster the shit goes, the lower jitter is tolerable
[23:50:29] <toastyde1th> because the shit trying to recieve the signal has what's called set up time, and hold time
[23:50:33] <LeelooMinai> And you have jitterbugs
[23:50:42] <toastyde1th> set up is how long the signal has to be high BEFORE the measurement is made
[23:50:47] <toastyde1th> and hold is after the measurement is made
[23:51:04] <zeeshan> hey that sounds very much like modbus
[23:51:04] <zeeshan> haha
[23:51:11] <toastyde1th> if the jitter is very high, it'll violate set up and hold times on the wire spec
[23:51:26] <zeeshan> so it'll drop packets
[23:51:35] <toastyde1th> yep
[23:51:42] <toastyde1th> because it'll read the wrong value
[23:52:22] <zeeshan> okay from what ive understood tonight from what you're saying
[23:52:31] <zeeshan> internal cross talk isn't a big deal for short runs.
[23:52:37] <toastyde1th> yup
[23:52:44] <toastyde1th> low frequency, short runs
[23:52:47] <zeeshan> i bet external noise is a bigger problem
[23:52:51] <zeeshan> from say a vfd
[23:52:53] <toastyde1th> once you get into mhz
[23:52:57] <toastyde1th> then a problem can arise
[23:53:04] <toastyde1th> even in short runs
[23:53:12] <zeeshan> so radio equipment
[23:53:16] <zeeshan> they gotta be careful
[23:53:34] <toastyde1th> radio and computer electronics
[23:53:49] <zeeshan> thats true
[23:53:51] <zeeshan> the cpu runs at ghz
[23:54:14] <zeeshan> for the fifth time,. so glad not an EE.
[23:54:23] <zeeshan> those guys must have fun designing cpus.
[23:54:38] <zeeshan> that'd drive me insane
[23:54:40] <toastyde1th> the runs are quite small in a cpu so it's less of a problem
[23:54:52] <zeeshan> well
[23:54:53] <toastyde1th> and cpu frequency has held constant for many years
[23:54:55] <zeeshan> the main bus lines
[23:54:59] <toastyde1th> the bus lines, yeah
[23:55:07] <zeeshan> i think for pci its 100mhz
[23:55:09] <zeeshan> i dont remember
[23:55:47] <toastyde1th> very often bus lines run at quite slow speeds and increase bandwidth by adding more lanes
[23:56:02] <toastyde1th> or by using multi-voltage/phase shifting to transmit more than one byte per line
[23:56:40] <zeeshan> the glass scales have 4 wires
[23:56:46] <zeeshan> internally shielded. and externally shielded
[23:56:54] <zeeshan> transmitting a 5v sine wave
[23:57:04] <zeeshan> but the run of the wire is like 4 meters
[23:57:08] <toastyde1th> what freq
[23:57:10] <zeeshan> rate is still 45khz
[23:57:20] <toastyde1th> yeah i wouldn't worry still
[23:57:33] <zeeshan> heidenhain just overengineering i guess
[23:57:34] <toastyde1th> for that, noise in general is way more critical since it's an analog signal
[23:57:44] <zeeshan> ah
[23:57:54] <toastyde1th> and accuracy of the signal measurement translates directly to machine accuract
[23:57:56] <toastyde1th> *accuracy
[23:58:24] <zeeshan> yes
[23:58:35] <zeeshan> it all makes sense now.
[23:58:45] <zeeshan> why there is so much shielding for the analog side
[23:58:49] <zeeshan> but no mention of shielding onthe digital side.
[23:58:59] <zeeshan> the cables ive seen only have an external shield
[23:59:00] <zeeshan> on digital side.
[23:59:26] <zeeshan> food time
[23:59:28] <zeeshan> thanks for the info :D
[23:59:47] <toastyde1th> analog signals care a lot about amplitude
[23:59:50] <toastyde1th> digital, not so much
