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[02:18:03] <Deejay> moin
[02:52:04] <Swapper> Hi channel, anyone know how to calculate the depth of a slot to hold a O-Ring type seal, flat surface.
[02:52:26] <Swapper> would think there should be a formula to calculate the depth of the slot
[02:55:05] <toastydeath> Swapper, you actually have to refer to the product sheet for the o ring you plan on using
[02:55:27] <toastydeath> i believe there's an iso spec, but it's not a straight slot, it's a wedge shaped slot
[02:55:59] <Swapper> its not for any critical application and i dont have a datasheet on the oring material
[02:56:17] <toastydeath> sry, I don't have any good rules of thumb
[02:57:16] <Swapper> thanx anyway, i can allways make the slot a bit shalow and then adjust for fit
[02:58:10] <toastydeath> here, this may help
[02:58:25] <toastydeath> except i can't seem to paste
[02:58:34] <Swapper> :)
[02:58:45] <toastydeath> http://www.ponnmachine.com/groove_design.html
[03:09:31] <Swapper> ill take a look, thanks
[04:30:49] <Jymm> Forging a Wizard...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llM5ez6fgBw
[04:46:56] <Jymm> Lawnmower forge (I was waiting for the roadkill bbq, but never happened)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfQHOGDHp4Y
[05:00:51] <Jymm> Coffee can forge (it's actually not too bad at all)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRTcmR6sSk
[05:05:06] <archivist_herron> pc power supply fan forge
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=blacksmith+hands
[05:08:43] <Jymm> archivist_herron: Heh, that works =)
[05:09:18] <Jymm> For you EU folks... 220VAC LED Bulbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNf6VSj6M-E
[05:09:41] <Jymm> shocking (literally)
[09:23:10] <jdh> idlers
[09:29:19] <malcom2073> Yep
[10:36:19] * Deejay just compiled linuxcnc v2.6.5 sim :)
[11:16:34] <ssi> hi
[12:48:43] <CaptHindsight> what light from yonder window breaks? It might be the elusive sun people write about
[12:51:28] <lair82> ssi, did you get your boards?
[12:51:40] <lair82> PCW you around?
[12:53:01] <pcw_home> Yes
[12:56:06] <lair82> What is your recommendation, I need to get 2 more encoders (spindle feedback, and 4th axis ) into linuxcnc, and would like to come off of my 7i44 into a SSerial card to interface with them.
[12:58:40] <pcw_home> Unfortunately theres no way to do that currently
[12:59:20] <pcw_home> you would need a direct FPGA connected daughtercard
[13:00:42] <pcw_home> say swap the 7I44 for a 7I52 (7I52 is 6 encoder inputs, 6 sserial channels)
[13:03:14] <lair82> Would I just cut the rj12 connectors off that are connected to it right now, and wire those direct?
[13:03:34] <pcw_home> Yes
[13:03:47] <pcw_home> I would like to have sserial remotes with encoders, but everytime I look closely into it it looks like work...
[13:04:22] <lair82> I could probably just run 2 more 7i73's couldn't I?
[13:04:46] <pcw_home> 7I73 encoders are really just for MPGs etc
[13:05:02] <lair82> Oh, ok.
[13:06:15] <pcw_home> there are two technical issues with sserial encoders:
[13:06:16] <pcw_home> 1: index is not supported
[13:06:18] <pcw_home> 2. sserial read data is one servo cycle late, ok for most I/O but not for closing a PID loop
[13:06:43] <pcw_home> both are fixable (1 is easy, 2 is hard)
[13:07:40] <lair82> I see, going with the 7i52 isn't a big deal, I would rather swap a card than try to crowbar 2 more in on top of an already packed control panel.
[13:08:43] <ssi> lair82: not as of yet, but I haven't checked packages in two days
[13:09:49] <pcw_home> Now if you had a SSI, BISS or Fanuc serial encoder, that will connect directly to the 7I44
[13:11:41] <pcw_home> (those are all absolute serial encoders that use a RS-422 interface with one TX pair and one RX pair just like sserial)
[13:13:09] <lair82> The spindle is a fanuc, but it is an older diferential style, and the other is the encoder feedback from a brand new Automation Direct 3kw servo/drive combo.
[13:14:22] <lair82> ssi, should be there, say's delivered monday at 5:32pm, left on front porch.
[13:14:29] <ssi> oh it went to the house
[13:14:30] <ssi> crud
[13:15:12] <lair82> That was the address I had, I take it your not there?
[13:15:23] <ssi> nah, I burned it down :)
[13:15:31] <ssi> I thought I'd put a different address on it
[13:15:55] <lair82> Serious?
[13:16:16] <ssi> yeah, that's why i need more boards! ;)
[13:16:37] <lair82> What, your house seriously burnt down?
[13:17:19] <ssi> yeah!
[13:18:17] <lair82> Dude, sorry to here that.
[13:18:34] <ssi> eh it's fine
[13:19:11] <skunkworks> it's just stuff, man..
[13:19:18] <ssi> exactly
[13:20:27] <lair82> Pretty shitty the USPS delivered a box to a concrete foundation.
[13:20:46] <ssi> nah, not quite that bad
[13:20:50] <ssi> it's probably sitting on the porch
[13:20:52] <lair82> And didn't return it to me.
[13:20:54] <ssi> I just have to drive 70 miles to go get it
[13:21:25] <lair82> Fuck, sorry man, that was the address I had.
[13:21:29] <ssi> no biggie
[13:21:37] <ssi> I need to go up and get all the mail anyway
[13:27:35] <lair82> pcw, another question I have is, the encoder is powered from the spindle drive, 5vdc. Do need to do anything else to interface that into that 7i52?
[13:31:34] <pcw_home> You should not need anything else (just dont connect the 7I52 encoder connector 5V pin)
[13:38:13] <lair82> Ok, that's what I was thinking. I just ordered 2 of the 7i52's off of the web store.
[13:41:32] <lair82> Does that mean I can drive that AD servo package off of the 7I52 as well thru the RS-232/422/485 communications interface via Modbus protocol on the drive?
[13:43:21] <lair82> I didn't even see that it said they were out of stock, unless I got the last 2.
[13:43:51] <lair82> How long will it take before they will be available again?
[13:47:06] <pcw_home> I dont know off hand. I'll check
[13:48:35] <pcw_home> There's no modbus support VIA Mesa UARTs currently (not impossible but would need hacking of MB2HAL or some such)
[13:52:33] <lair82> Just wondering, I see a bunch of stuff on the mailing list today about modbus and vfd's from AD. I might tinker with it when all of it gets here.
[13:53:16] <lair82> Will it be a while until those cards ship if they are out of stock?
[13:55:10] <pcw_home> I dont think so Im pretty sure we have 50 that are in from assy but have not been tested yet
[13:55:39] <PetefromTn_> afternoon folks...
[13:55:49] <lair82> Ok, sounds good, not like its ready to be fired up yet anyway.
[13:56:08] <lair82> Hello Pete,
[13:56:27] <PetefromTn_> hey lair howzitgoin?
[13:56:56] <ssi> hey pete
[13:57:06] <PetefromTn_> hey SSI
[13:57:14] <lair82> Not bad, have you made any headway getting the tool changer carousel going with linux on your cinci/
[13:57:25] <PetefromTn_> unfortunately not
[13:57:33] <PetefromTn_> still have to get orient working
[13:58:01] <PetefromTn_> honestly right now I am more concerned with getting the machine setup in native imperial measurements so I can use Cutter comp easier
[13:58:29] <ssi> you set it up metric originally?
[13:58:29] <PetefromTn_> I did wind up getting myself a couple Christmas Presents tho LOL
[13:58:51] <jdh> you haven't fixed that yet?
[13:59:12] <PetefromTn_> yup mostly because of the metric screws and the fact that we had the files from LEE in UK for the same machine that we wanted to use.
[13:59:14] <PetefromTn_> nope
[13:59:21] <lair82> Ok, just wondered, I'm in the midst of retrofitting a 1984 10vc-1000, and a 1979 (same model) cinci vmc's and am dreading that part of the deal.
[13:59:22] <ssi> my screws seemed metric-ish
[13:59:23] <ssi> but not exactly
[13:59:24] <ssi> heh
[13:59:35] <ssi> they seemed to measure out to a shade over 8mm if I recall correctly
[13:59:38] <PetefromTn_> But I need to get it sorted.
[13:59:57] <PetefromTn_> I just don't really know how to get it done yet
[14:00:15] <PetefromTn_> I did have the need to do some kinda vertical lathe work in the VMC tho
[14:00:36] <PetefromTn_> I have a bunch of 3/4 inch round shanks I need to center drill, champfer and drill and tap
[14:00:47] <PetefromTn_> 40 of them actually
[14:01:00] <PetefromTn_> so without a CNC lathe here yet I was forced to do something else
[14:01:11] <PetefromTn_> I ordered one of those little 5c spin indexers
[14:01:20] <PetefromTn_> and a nice set of 5c collets
[14:01:27] <PetefromTn_> and a little collet stop for it
[14:01:44] <PetefromTn_> The plan is to clamp the indexer vertically on my large angle plate
[14:01:52] <PetefromTn_> and locate the spindle centerline
[14:01:53] <lair82> We just bought 2 VTL's, 59.5" max swing a piece, both need new controls, yeeee haaaaa,
[14:01:57] <PetefromTn_> and then take care of it that way
[14:02:05] <PetefromTn_> NICE
[14:02:16] <ssi> holy balls
[14:02:19] <ssi> 60" swing?
[14:02:21] <PetefromTn_> I cannot wait to get my CNC lathe working but it is gonna cost about 2.5k or so
[14:02:33] <PetefromTn_> thats a freakin' monster
[14:02:37] <lair82> How long are those parts you have to do?
[14:02:45] <PetefromTn_> not long about five or six inches
[14:02:58] <PetefromTn_> which is nice because the spin indexer will swallow most of them
[14:03:13] <PetefromTn_> and the part that gets machined will be close to the face.
[14:03:36] <lair82> Sounds like a job to farm out, wink wink!!!!
[14:03:47] <PetefromTn_> I went this way because I can use the indexer for a lot of other stuff
[14:03:59] <PetefromTn_> and the 5c collets will become useful on the CNC lathe once it is online.
[14:04:24] <PetefromTn_> lair82 I would love to farm some stuff out but right now I can do these pretty easily in the Cincinatti
[14:04:53] <lair82> I see, very true, I was just saying that because we have 12 cnc lathes, plenty of time to run some smaller parts like that
[14:05:08] <PetefromTn_> It's funny I had a 12x36 manual lathe hear for years and never really had much paying work for it.
[14:05:21] <PetefromTn_> now that it is gone I have been bombarded with requests for lathe work LOL
[14:05:31] <PetefromTn_> where are you located again?
[14:05:41] <lair82> We bought a 10" avenger back in the summer just for smaller parts, production quantities.
[14:06:01] <PetefromTn_> nice
[14:06:13] <lair82> Petersburg MI, 10 minutes north of Toledo Ohio
[14:06:16] <PetefromTn_> I had opportunity recently to buy a nice little gang tool lathe
[14:06:31] <PetefromTn_> but I had already purchased and moved in this flat bed lathe I bought
[14:06:51] <PetefromTn_> honestly for what I intend to do this machine I have here will be perfect for the most part
[14:07:07] <PetefromTn_> but it would have been nice to have that gang tool collet lathe for stuff like this.
[14:07:49] <PetefromTn_> http://blog.cnccookbook.com/2014/12/16/10-features-pros-hobby-cnc-controllers-dont/?utm_source=CNCCookbook+Blog+Posts&utm_campaign=f3676d0d03-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_df8004b230-f3676d0d03-29524681
[14:08:19] <PetefromTn_> is it me or does this article have some misinformation about linuxCNC in it? I thought much of that he is talking about is already implemented
[14:08:30] <lair82> About those screws, even our 4 big MO series Cincinnati Lathes all have 8mm ball screws, and they all 4 were built between 1979 and 1985.
[14:08:59] <PetefromTn_> I think mine are either 8 or 5mm cannot recall
[14:09:06] <ssi> mine are probably also 8mm
[14:09:18] <ssi> just seemed like the math didn't work out
[14:09:22] <PetefromTn_> but I really need to figure out how to convert the base setup to imperial.
[14:09:46] <ssi> shouldn't be hard
[14:09:52] <PetefromTn_> if you could change the tool table editor to imperial that would not be a problem.
[14:10:12] <ssi> that's a good point
[14:10:19] <ssi> I always thought about the base setup as not mattering
[14:10:31] <ssi> but if the tool table is tied to the base units, then it sorta does matter
[14:10:33] <PetefromTn_> Apparently the settings will affect the tuning of the drives not that I have it tuned perfect in any way shape or foem
[14:10:42] <PetefromTn_> yup unfortunately
[14:11:19] <PetefromTn_> so when I want to change cutter width for comp it is metric and I have to whip out the calculator which is both time consuming and adds some chances for me to make a mistake
[14:11:33] <PetefromTn_> Gotta go pickup my kids BRB in a few minutes...
[14:17:23] <PetefromTn_> Ok back agian
[14:19:10] <PetefromTn_> I was watching a neat video series by Oxtools on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_VO9uRigQ8 Where he does some neat stuff with one of these cheap little spin indexers.
[14:19:25] <ssi> I like that guys videos
[14:19:44] <PetefromTn_> yeah he seems like a pretty cool guy
[14:47:26] <Loetmichel> *hihi* just got food delivered... Ultrasonic cleaner with windex in it is perfect to clean the cutlery from yesterday... like new! ;-)
[16:24:54] <Deejay> gn8
[17:58:53] <zeeshan> anyone an expert on AFCI or gfci bnreakers?
[17:58:54] <zeeshan> :D
[18:26:18] <zeeshan> if i touch 120VAC between hot and neutral
[18:26:23] <zeeshan> and my resistance is about 1000 ohms
[18:26:40] <zeeshan> I = V / R = 120/1000 = 0.12
[18:26:44] <zeeshan> 120 mA can kill you
[18:26:58] <zeeshan> they say more than 6mA you will feel a shock
[18:27:00] <zeeshan> but if you do
[18:27:11] <zeeshan> I = 12 / 1000 = 0.012 = 12mA (12V dc system)
[18:27:18] <zeeshan> i've touched +12v and - 12v all the time
[18:27:22] <zeeshan> it doesnt do anything
[18:27:24] <zeeshan> even w/ wet hands
[18:27:35] <zeeshan> whats going on?
[18:28:21] <jdh> with what
[18:28:23] <SpeedEvil> you're inventing the 1000
[18:29:04] <zeeshan> oh
[18:29:11] <zeeshan> 1000 to 500 ohms is for wet skin
[18:33:01] <zeeshan> cant find values
[18:33:05] * zeeshan going to measure his resistance
[18:33:26] <DaViruz> it is futile.
[18:38:59] <zeeshan> wet is about
[18:39:06] <zeeshan> 660000 ohms
[18:39:19] <zeeshan> dry is about 1100000 ohms
[18:39:27] <zeeshan> i dont know where the fuck this 1000 ohm number is coming from
[18:39:28] <zeeshan> on the internet
[18:40:52] <zeeshan> this is hand to hand
[18:40:59] <zeeshan> hand to foot is about 12M ohm
[18:41:53] <zeeshan> 120 / 660000 = 0.00018 A
[18:41:59] <zeeshan> okay time to touch 120V conectors
[18:42:01] <zeeshan> *conductors
[18:49:28] <jdh> I wouldn't suggest it.
[18:50:13] <zeeshan> read more about it
[18:50:27] <zeeshan> okay yea its the current that kills you
[18:50:47] <zeeshan> but human body ohms is a function of voltage.
[18:51:06] <zeeshan> like a 12V power supply doesnt have enough voltage to pierce through you
[18:51:09] <zeeshan> but 120V does
[18:51:17] <jdh> also dc v.s ac
[18:51:20] <zeeshan> the more the electricity pierces through you
[18:51:26] <zeeshan> the lower your ohms is
[18:51:39] <zeeshan> so that 1000 ohms value is a "safe" value osha uses
[18:51:57] <zeeshan> why does ac vs dc matter
[18:52:04] <zeeshan> 120V dc would be more dangerous i'd think
[18:52:06] <zeeshan> than 120V AC
[18:52:13] <zeeshan> cause of the cyclic nature
[18:54:36] <zeeshan> this is interesting stuff :D
[18:55:46] <jfigie> 120VAC has peaks of 170 V
[18:56:02] <zeeshan> oh yea
[18:56:06] <zeeshan> i forgot its 120vac rms
[18:56:12] <zeeshan> 120 * sqrt 2
[18:57:29] <zeeshan> is it always true that a short between a neutral wire
[18:57:41] <zeeshan> and a metal case that is grounded
[18:57:46] <zeeshan> can never go live?
[18:58:00] <zeeshan> all the books ive seen and articles ive read
[18:58:04] <zeeshan> say it won't
[18:58:08] <zeeshan> but i think theyre idealizing
[18:58:57] <jdh> in theory, theory and practice are the same.
[18:59:03] <zeeshan> :)
[18:59:30] <jfigie> as long as it is really grounded. The neutral and ground are tied together where the service enters
[18:59:42] <jfigie> the building
[18:59:50] <jfigie> typically
[18:59:55] <zeeshan> so how will you ever know
[18:59:56] <zeeshan> tehre is a short there?
[18:59:58] <zeeshan> without a GFCI
[19:02:52] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15865831068/
[19:02:53] <Valen> in the USA where you have transformers yeah it'll probably work
[19:02:55] <zeeshan> so many neutrals and grounds
[19:03:17] <Valen> here you can get a certain amount of difference between neutral and ground i believe
[19:03:27] <zeeshan> valen when i worked at eaton
[19:03:35] <zeeshan> we used to sell gfci breakers
[19:03:42] <zeeshan> we got complaints on nuisance tripping
[19:04:13] <zeeshan> cost most commercial gfci are meant to trip at 6mA or if neutral is shorted out
[19:04:26] <zeeshan> but if you hook up a grounded air collector to that circuit
[19:04:32] <zeeshan> you can easily get more tham 6mA leakage
[19:04:37] <zeeshan> so they kept on tripping :/
[19:05:04] <zeeshan> so we sold them our breakers that can have their trip current adjustable :)
[19:05:17] <zeeshan> *cost = cause
[19:05:27] <Tom_itx> those videos are good but they sure drag on
[19:05:40] <zeeshan> what videos
[19:06:01] <Tom_L> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_VO9uRigQ8
[19:06:04] <Tom_itx> those
[19:06:12] <zeeshan> ive watched every single one of em :D
[19:06:14] <zeeshan> hes the man
[19:06:18] <zeeshan> tom lipton
[19:06:25] <Tom_L> not a bad name
[19:06:32] <zeeshan> you know he has a book too?
[19:06:33] <zeeshan> a few
[19:06:36] <Tom_L> nope
[19:06:49] <Tom_L> he's good but i think it drags too much
[19:06:50] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/Metalworking-Doing-Better-Tom-Lipton/dp/0831134763
[19:06:57] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Tom+Lipton&search-alias=books&text=Tom+Lipton&sort=relevancerank
[19:06:58] <zeeshan> better link
[19:07:01] <jfigie> yes he talks and repeats himself too much
[19:07:57] <zeeshan> i enjoy watching the videos :)
[19:07:58] <zeeshan> beats tv
[19:08:14] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15865831068/
[19:08:27] <zeeshan> so if any one of my neutral wires decided to short to the metal chassis
[19:08:40] <zeeshan> the case wouldnt go live
[19:08:48] <zeeshan> but if the hot wire shorted to neutral or the case
[19:08:52] <zeeshan> fuse protection will go off
[19:08:59] <zeeshan> anything else i overlooked?
[19:09:11] <Tom_L> neutral doesn't go to the case?
[19:09:22] <zeeshan> whatcha mean
[19:09:39] <Tom_L> the case isn't grounded?
[19:09:48] <zeeshan> case will be grounded
[19:09:59] <Tom_L> neutral != GND ?
[19:10:01] <zeeshan> the 3awg main wire coming from the breaker
[19:10:19] <zeeshan> yes neutral normally doesnt short to the case
[19:10:26] <zeeshan> thats why the neutral bus is insulated on the left
[19:10:37] <zeeshan> but im saying, if a neutral wire decided to short
[19:11:15] <Tom_L> i'm somewhat trying to figure out what went wrong in my box
[19:11:25] <zeeshan> well since neutral is always bonded at the main breaker panel
[19:11:27] <zeeshan> its always grounded i guess
[19:11:29] <Tom_L> all the 5v blew but the 5v reg is good
[19:11:33] <jfigie> yes if it decided to short you would have a neutral ground fault but it would probably go undetected
[19:11:41] <Tom_L> one dude thinks it came from the PC
[19:11:45] <zeeshan> jfigie: what if both neutral
[19:11:49] <zeeshan> was shorted to the case
[19:11:51] <Tom_L> i'm not quite buying his idea
[19:11:55] <zeeshan> and then mr hot wire decided to short
[19:12:22] <zeeshan> Tom_L: what are you using to power the 5v?
[19:12:24] <zeeshan> computer PSU?
[19:12:28] <Tom_L> smps
[19:12:35] <zeeshan> what brand
[19:12:42] <zeeshan> think it had a temporary hiccup?
[19:12:47] <Tom_L> tom_L brand
[19:12:59] <jfigie> then you would trip the breaker if the hot shorts to the case even is neutral is already shorted
[19:13:13] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/5v_switcher.jpg
[19:13:17] <Tom_L> one of those
[19:13:17] <zeeshan> i blew up some CC fuses today
[19:13:21] <zeeshan> they're really not dramatic at all
[19:13:25] <zeeshan> like car fuses at 120vac
[19:14:01] <zeeshan> jfigie: tell me if im over thinking it
[19:14:02] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/control9.jpg
[19:14:05] <Tom_L> left side there
[19:14:08] <zeeshan> but do you think theres any use of having a GFCI main breaker for the machine?
[19:14:17] <Tom_L> i'm gonna do some rewiring i think
[19:14:20] <zeeshan> im thinking there is absolutely no way become part of the circuit
[19:14:22] <Tom_L> that's not a final pic btw
[19:14:28] <zeeshan> its not like the enclosure will get filled with water
[19:15:13] <zeeshan> i can see why you need a gfci in a washroom, say you drop your hairdryer in the sink, the electricity will still flow through it without shorting
[19:15:20] <zeeshan> and when you touch that water, you'll become part of the circuit too
[19:15:21] <jfigie> I would not use a gfci. They tend to nuisance trip if there is too much leakage current/
[19:15:25] <zeeshan> and since you've got about 1000 ohms of resistance
[19:15:36] <zeeshan> it'll only pass .2 A through you approx and not trip the overload
[19:15:38] <jdh> our work scenarios always start with "the building is full of water"
[19:15:42] <jfigie> If your enclosure is metal and well bonded to ground it should be OK
[19:16:15] <zeeshan> well to check if the metal enclosures are well bonded
[19:16:33] <zeeshan> i measure the resistance at various points of the case and the ground bar (where the earth wire will hook up to from the breaker panel)
[19:16:36] <jfigie> That is why UL and other standards require a ground bond test for some standards
[19:16:40] <zeeshan> and i get less than 0.1 ohms
[19:17:00] <jfigie> The ground must be capable of carrying the fault current
[19:17:17] <zeeshan> so if its a 100 amp circuit
[19:17:17] <jfigie> If that is the case then you should be OK
[19:17:20] <zeeshan> it needs to be sized to 3awg
[19:17:23] <Tom_L> does the ground cable go back thru the neutral plug wire?
[19:17:38] <zeeshan> huh
[19:17:55] <zeeshan> http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/00075.png
[19:17:58] <zeeshan> this is a proper circuit Tom_itx
[19:18:20] <zeeshan> i know you can't bond neutral and ground at a sub enclosure sometimes
[19:18:22] <Tom_L> where does GROUND POINT go?
[19:18:25] <zeeshan> because the upstream breaker wont trip
[19:18:27] <Tom_L> ground rod?
[19:18:34] <zeeshan> the ground point goes from your main panel bus bar
[19:18:37] <zeeshan> to a water pipe usually
[19:18:46] <zeeshan> i know for accessory buildings
[19:18:49] <zeeshan> it'll go to a ground rod
[19:19:09] <Tom_L> so neutral and ground _are_ tied together
[19:19:13] <zeeshan> yes
[19:19:15] <zeeshan> at one place.
[19:19:17] <zeeshan> the main panel
[19:19:26] <zeeshan> if you tie it at say a cnc enclosure
[19:19:32] <zeeshan> your upstream breaker might not trip.
[19:19:35] <Tom_L> the case has a large ground lug on the plate
[19:19:39] <zeeshan> *upstream being the main panel breaker
[19:20:08] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/control8.jpg
[19:20:11] <Tom_L> bottom right
[19:20:31] <zeeshan> where is thatr green wire going
[19:20:45] <Tom_L> to the plug iirc
[19:20:57] <Tom_L> i'd have to freeze my arse off and go check for sure
[19:21:01] <zeeshan> where does the ground from your main panel go?
[19:21:02] <Tom_L> but i'm not gonna
[19:21:08] <zeeshan> do you guys have a water pipe?
[19:21:18] <Tom_L> not where the mill is
[19:21:27] <zeeshan> no
[19:21:33] <zeeshan> like your power to this cnc mill
[19:21:40] <Tom_L> wall outlet
[19:21:40] <zeeshan> it comes from your resideential panel?
[19:21:44] <Tom_L> yes
[19:21:54] <zeeshan> the main ground for your residential panel is what im asking
[19:21:55] <Tom_L> it has a 10' ground rod going to it
[19:22:05] <zeeshan> ahhh
[19:22:10] <zeeshan> well if youre ever ensure
[19:22:14] <zeeshan> *unsure
[19:22:22] <zeeshan> i'd measure the ohms between that ground point in your casse
[19:22:25] <zeeshan> and the 10' ground rod :)
[19:22:35] <zeeshan> should be 3-4 ohms
[19:22:36] <Tom_L> i'm just trying to figure out what happened to cause the short
[19:22:41] <Tom_L> it's still a mystery to me
[19:22:49] <Tom_L> but i haven't dug very far yet
[19:23:23] <zeeshan> i dunno how youve designed your 5v supply
[19:23:29] <zeeshan> do you have an isolation plane?
[19:23:48] <zeeshan> cause if the voltage for some reason jumped
[19:23:54] <zeeshan> could cause an issue?
[19:24:25] <Tom_L> it's possible i did it myself but i'm unaware of it if i did
[19:24:36] <Tom_L> i was doing some wiring but i'm generally quite cautions
[19:24:40] <Tom_L> ous*
[19:25:05] <zeeshan> you know what i saw once?
[19:25:07] <Tom_L> i'm planning to rework some of the box
[19:25:09] <zeeshan> a copper whisker
[19:25:18] <zeeshan> that caused a huge short circuit in a distribution panel
[19:25:19] <zeeshan> lol
[19:25:25] <Tom_L> yeah
[19:25:33] <Tom_L> those take time to grow though
[19:26:17] <Tom_L> i don't need all 3 of those transformers, i my remove a couple until i actually need the power
[19:26:35] <Tom_L> pretty sure 1 would be more than adequate for the sherline
[19:27:12] <Tom_L> make the box alot lighter too
[19:27:42] <eeriegeek> It looks like all your signal grounds could be earth grounded.
[19:28:07] <Tom_L> is that bad?
[19:29:51] <jfigie> it is pretty typical to tie the secondary common to chassis at some point
[19:30:55] <Tom_L> well, i though it was
[19:31:12] <Tom_L> i'm no expert on machine wiring though
[19:31:51] <jfigie> I think you usually want to control where your return currents are going
[19:32:00] <eeriegeek> Me neither, thought that could cause problems if the earth ground ever picks up voltage.
[19:32:19] <Tom_L> i've always tried to adhere to the star gnd wiring configuration
[19:32:26] <jfigie> but if you have the common tied to chassis in one place you still are in control of where the currents go
[19:34:47] <renesis> earth ground picking up voltage isnt a problem if everything is star grounded to earth ground
[19:34:52] <eeriegeek> I was just looking at all the boards with binder posts into the sheet metal plate thinking that was unusual.. maybe not though
[19:35:06] <renesis> anything other than strict star grounding is a compromise
[19:35:38] <Tom_L> eeriegeek i'm planning to redo that if you're looking at my box
[19:36:02] <Tom_L> picked up some din rail the other day
[19:36:24] <Tom_L> i will isolate all the grounds and tie them at one point
[19:37:03] <eeriegeek> Gotcha, I kind of hopped into the middle of that, sorry
[19:37:09] <Tom_L> np
[19:37:18] <Tom_L> i'm always looking for ways to improve a design
[19:37:26] <Tom_L> given what i have to work with...
[19:37:34] <jdh> I'm alwyas looking for good enough
[19:38:55] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: by copper whisker
[19:39:00] <zeeshan> i mean a shaving of copper strand
[19:39:03] <zeeshan> i used the wrong term
[19:39:21] <Tom_L> yeah
[19:39:39] <jfigie> yep "tin whiskers" can grow over time
[19:39:59] <zeeshan> grounding your 24VDC - rail
[19:40:02] <zeeshan> to earth
[19:40:05] <zeeshan> is that even necessary?
[19:40:38] <Tom_L> why not?
[19:40:41] <jfigie> I think it is a good practice unless you really need a floating supply
[19:40:52] <zeeshan> well don't you earth stuff
[19:40:58] <zeeshan> for shock protection?
[19:41:30] <zeeshan> at 25VDC , wiki says 50% of population has 3250 ohms of resistance
[19:41:33] <zeeshan> (worst case)
[19:41:41] <jfigie> if you have a floating output then the stray capacitance and nearby ac voltages will determene the potential to earth
[19:41:53] <zeeshan> so 8mA
[19:41:56] <zeeshan> i guess that can hurt
[19:42:25] <renesis> like, if you jab a wire into you chest
[19:42:37] <renesis> across your hand itll just tickle funny
[19:42:39] <zeeshan> renesis: these values are based on
[19:42:40] <zeeshan> wet hands
[19:42:46] <zeeshan> and the voltage penetrating through the skin
[19:42:57] <zeeshan> @ hands
[19:42:58] <renesis> well dont be stabbing yourself with HV
[19:43:10] <zeeshan> no its not about stabbing
[19:43:14] <zeeshan> the article i read says
[19:43:19] <zeeshan> the voltage breaks down through your skin
[19:43:29] <zeeshan> kinda like why you have a insulator thats rated to 300V
[19:43:30] <renesis> wtf does that mean
[19:43:30] <zeeshan> vs 600V
[19:43:35] <renesis> the voltage drops across your skin?
[19:43:38] <zeeshan> no
[19:43:50] <zeeshan> your "insulation resistance"
[19:43:52] <renesis> well define break down like it neans something
[19:43:57] <zeeshan> the higher the voltage
[19:43:59] <zeeshan> the lower your insulation.
[19:44:01] <zeeshan> resistance
[19:44:08] <Tom_L> ohm's law
[19:44:15] <renesis> well, maybe until you heat up and dry out a bit
[19:44:20] <renesis> anyway, dont be an idiot
[19:44:33] <zeeshan> when you see victims of electricution
[19:44:35] <Tom_L> go cook a hotdog in your wall outlet
[19:44:36] <zeeshan> whats the typical sign?
[19:44:39] <renesis> i got 350VDC across my hands constantly when working on SMPS
[19:44:43] <zeeshan> you see a black mark on them of burn
[19:44:54] <zeeshan> their insulation broke down :)
[19:45:26] <renesis> i dunno man i wouldnt really consider skin insulating very well
[19:45:32] <Tom_itx> gonna go kick back a while...
[19:45:36] <renesis> were not that capacitive
[19:45:46] <zeeshan> jfigie: i didnt understand your comment
[19:45:55] <renesis> human body model is like 300pf or something tiny like that
[19:45:56] <zeeshan> for a floating output "he stray capacitance and nearby ac voltages will determene the potential to earth'
[19:45:59] <renesis> for ESD strikes
[19:46:08] <zeeshan> what is stray capacistance and ac voltages?
[19:46:13] <zeeshan> <- confused
[19:46:31] <renesis> capacitance between any non conducting barriers
[19:46:36] <zeeshan> youre basically saying air gap
[19:46:41] <renesis> anything gap
[19:46:42] <zeeshan> or insulation resistance
[19:46:45] <renesis> that doesnt conduct well
[19:46:47] <zeeshan> ah
[19:47:00] <zeeshan> why is that a bad thing?
[19:47:09] <renesis> capacitance is surface area and distance
[19:47:15] <zeeshan> that just means you'll get shocked by 24vdc
[19:47:17] <zeeshan> which isnt too bad
[19:47:20] <zeeshan> it tingles
[19:47:34] <Jymm> so does 220VAC
[19:47:36] <renesis> i dont really feel anything under 30v
[19:47:50] <zeeshan> honestly the only time i've gotten shocked
[19:47:52] <zeeshan> is by my tig welder
[19:47:54] <Jymm> renesis: Yeah? put a fresh 0v battery on your toung
[19:47:58] <Jymm> 9v
[19:48:01] <zeeshan> i think it was outputting 35vdc.
[19:48:01] <renesis> tongue doesnt count
[19:48:11] <renesis> and i used to keep 9v batteries on my tongue indefinitely
[19:48:12] <Jymm> renesis: Yes it does. you said <30V
[19:48:21] <zeeshan> 9v tastes delecious
[19:48:23] <renesis> skin while working
[19:48:24] <zeeshan> delicious
[19:48:31] <renesis> i dont suck on voltage while working
[19:48:35] <renesis> its not professional
[19:48:45] <zeeshan> hahaha
[19:48:48] <zeeshan> you suck on something else!
[19:48:51] * zeeshan hides
[19:48:55] <Jymm> renesis: so you're saying you just suck at all other times?
[19:48:59] <renesis> nope, id still have jobs if i did that
[19:49:14] <renesis> dunno man, pretty good at my job
[19:49:32] <zeeshan> renesis: y ou just got fucked
[19:49:38] <zeeshan> or people didnt like you
[19:49:43] <renesis> ?
[19:49:50] <zeeshan> about your ex job
[19:49:54] <renesis> which
[19:49:59] <zeeshan> audio place
[19:50:05] <renesis> last ex job im going back to in a week
[19:50:09] <renesis> theyre all audio places
[19:50:11] <zeeshan> you clearly know what the hell youre doing
[19:50:11] <zeeshan> :P
[19:50:28] <renesis> the one youre talking about, getting fired when i did instead of leaving was worth about $15k
[19:50:37] <renesis> and i still have lunch with the guys i worked with an for
[19:51:22] <renesis> but it was cute seeing you repeat YOU GOT FIRED YOU GOT FIRED over and over after i banned you, like getting fired from a place you wanted to leave for like a year previous is a bad thing
[19:51:47] <renesis> also technically, according to HR, i was laid off
[19:52:36] <renesis> so yeah, me in school full time right now is possible because got fired, so dont regret shit
[19:52:51] <zeeshan> upgrading never is bad :D
[19:52:53] <renesis> engineers making 50% more than me had no chance of buying a house in that city, anyway
[19:53:26] <renesis> and it was too close to home, so ridiculous amounts spent on gasoline
[19:54:19] <renesis> and i dont kiss ass like you do, do yeah typically there will be a couple people dont like me much places i work
[19:54:36] <zeeshan> it's not about kissing ass
[19:54:40] <zeeshan> it's about communicating properly with people
[19:54:43] <zeeshan> even if they're wrong
[19:54:48] <zeeshan> you don't tell someone they're wrong
[19:55:01] <renesis> you do if it gets shit done
[19:55:04] <zeeshan> you show em how to do it differently.
[19:55:15] <zeeshan> no one likes being told theyre wrong
[19:55:20] <renesis> project managers love me because i say the things they wont =)
[19:55:38] <zeeshan> i'm not saying you let it go.
[19:55:40] <zeeshan> you never let it go!
[19:55:49] <renesis> 05:38:19 < zeeshan> you show em how to do it differently.
[19:55:49] <renesis> 05:38:30 < zeeshan> no one likes being told theyre wrong
[19:55:58] <renesis> thats some lala land ideal situations
[19:56:08] <zeeshan> even if someone is wrong
[19:56:13] <zeeshan> you don't go YOURE WRONG.
[19:56:15] <renesis> and if you cant deal with being wrong, you prob shouldnt be in engineering
[19:56:15] <zeeshan> you say
[19:56:21] <zeeshan> "i don't think that will work for this reason"
[19:56:29] <renesis> thats the same thing dude
[19:56:32] <zeeshan> not really
[19:56:33] <renesis> and thats how i would say it
[19:56:36] <zeeshan> ones constructive
[19:56:39] <zeeshan> ones destructive
[19:56:41] <renesis> dude, its semantics
[19:56:45] <zeeshan> i hate engineering fkrs at school
[19:56:49] <zeeshan> kids always go "thats WRONG"
[19:56:57] <zeeshan> and they end up looking like morons cause they're wrong
[19:57:01] <zeeshan> so its a win win situation being nice :)
[19:57:09] <renesis> well so you call him wrong
[19:57:15] <renesis> and in the end, everyone knows more for it
[19:57:19] <zeeshan> anyone who says "this won't work"
[19:57:23] <zeeshan> i take very lightly
[19:57:27] <zeeshan> cause they dont know what the hell theyre talking about
[19:57:34] <zeeshan> cause they can't even compose a sentence or come up with why
[19:57:35] <renesis> eh?
[19:57:42] <renesis> ive said that, and shits not worked
[19:57:56] <renesis> thats why you have experienced people around
[19:58:02] <renesis> they know a lot of shit that doesnt work
[19:58:03] <zeeshan> experience is great and dandy
[19:58:10] <zeeshan> but it's important to tell someone why i't wont work
[19:58:15] <renesis> sure
[19:58:18] <zeeshan> just saying it wont work is as good as nothing
[19:58:37] <renesis> well, it kind of depends on how much time and who is involved
[19:58:38] <zeeshan> and doing something because it works
[19:58:45] <zeeshan> isn't a great answer either
[19:59:18] <renesis> anyway, mostly what youre talking about applies to office politics
[19:59:31] <renesis> ive been thanked many times for going against that grain
[20:00:00] <renesis> i dont have a family and money isnt a huge deal, i can afford to be honest to push projects forward
[20:00:26] <renesis> its basically how i got last job (same as upcoming job) without an interview
[20:01:13] <zeeshan> i wonder if i power my machine
[20:01:19] <renesis> you pick your battles
[20:01:21] <zeeshan> with 15 amp receptacle
[20:01:23] <zeeshan> if itll blow shit up
[20:01:30] <zeeshan> even though all the power supplies are unloaded
[20:01:34] <zeeshan> and servo drives are unloaded
[20:01:35] <zeeshan> same w/ vfd
[20:01:53] <zeeshan> under full load i calc 85-90A
[20:01:58] <zeeshan> its too cold in the garage to hook it up :()
[20:03:39] <zeeshan> 15 +24vdc
[20:03:48] <jfigie> if the motors are unloaded it may not draw too much. I don't know about any inrush.
[20:04:53] <jfigie> 85 - 90A seems like a lot for a small? machine
[20:04:57] <zeeshan> my 24VDC supply is powering limit switches, a hydraulic solenoid, z-brake, other control relays, contactor coil side
[20:05:09] <zeeshan> i wonder if thats a bad idea
[20:05:19] <zeeshan> cause of the inrush from the solenoids
[20:05:26] <zeeshan> jfigie: i dunno thats what i calculated
[20:05:34] <zeeshan> i calculated many many times
[20:05:49] <zeeshan> most of the circuits are 110V
[20:05:56] <zeeshan> except the spindle drive which is 240
[20:06:22] <jfigie> if you add the max currents from every thing you get a big number. But will that ever really be the case
[20:06:29] <zeeshan> thats true
[20:06:37] <zeeshan> i designed for worst case
[20:06:38] <zeeshan> :P
[20:06:42] <zeeshan> which is kinda silly
[20:06:44] <zeeshan> but its my machine!
[20:07:09] <zeeshan> https://pdf.yt/d/lypbjB1P3rsUGjaU
[20:07:11] <zeeshan> those are all the devices
[20:07:14] <jfigie> Thats OK it will be more reliable
[20:07:38] <zeeshan> 5 servo drives, 3 vfds, couple of psu, a PC , lamps, fans, lubricator
[20:08:59] <zeeshan> im really hoping when the solenoid triggers
[20:09:08] <zeeshan> or the z-brake 24vdc engages
[20:09:15] <zeeshan> it doesnt effect the voltage drop at the supply.
[20:09:24] <zeeshan> i haven't fully loaded a meanwell 24vdc supply before
[20:09:34] <jfigie> it will take /me a bit to look at that drawing
[20:09:47] <zeeshan> dont waste your time :)
[20:09:51] <zeeshan> just wanted to show the devices
[20:10:02] <zeeshan> though if you can comment on the 24vdc
[20:10:05] <zeeshan> that would be appreciated :D
[20:10:20] <zeeshan> i feel like the z-brake and hydraulic solenoid
[20:10:25] <zeeshan> need some sort of snubber circuit
[20:10:35] <zeeshan> for the inrush currents
[20:10:56] <zeeshan> otherwise ill blow up the 24vdc supply
[20:13:09] <zeeshan> another person has a similar machine
[20:13:12] <zeeshan> and their circuit diagram looks like this:
[20:13:13] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti3t81sxkky36in/AAAGffuUME_d8rCreVbBW2Jxa/SCHEMATICS?dl=0#lh:null-maho_400e_schematics_10.png
[20:13:21] <zeeshan> specifically for the motor brake.
[20:13:45] <zeeshan> theres 3 contacts that activate it
[20:14:04] <zeeshan> im assuming the resistor symbol with a line through it is the brake
[20:14:08] <zeeshan> not sure what the thing on the right is
[20:14:32] <jfigie> OK the motor brake is just a resistor
[20:14:49] <zeeshan> i believe its a 24W resistor.
[20:15:19] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/14912262293/
[20:15:20] <zeeshan> i lied
[20:15:23] <zeeshan> 20W resistor
[20:15:52] <zeeshan> i actually don't know how a motor brake works.
[20:16:12] <zeeshan> the servo is hard to turn when the brake is engaged
[20:16:16] <zeeshan> er.
[20:16:24] <zeeshan> the servo is hard to turn when the brake is not energized
[20:16:28] <zeeshan> but easy to turn when energized
[20:16:56] <jfigie> when the motor is decelerating it generates. The resistor is a load
[20:17:22] <jfigie> when resistor is connected turning the motor forces current thought it
[20:17:50] <jfigie> that is why ii is hard to turn with the brake on
[20:17:56] <jfigie> it*
[20:21:15] <zeeshan> ahh
[20:21:21] <zeeshan> kinda the same principal as a braking resistor
[20:21:22] <zeeshan> on a vfd.
[20:21:38] <zeeshan> but in this case, the power source is the servo itself
[20:21:50] <zeeshan> power source of the resistor tha tis
[20:22:07] <zeeshan> hm then how does puttiong 24vdc through it change that?
[20:23:41] <jfigie> I was assuming the 24V was for the relay coil that controls the brake
[20:23:58] <jfigie> where is it on the first schematic
[20:24:08] <zeeshan> yes
[20:24:16] <zeeshan> when that coil is energized
[20:24:31] <zeeshan> current flows through the brake, and it allows the servo motor to spin freely
[20:24:46] <zeeshan> but when there is no current flow through the brake, the servo motor is locked almost
[20:24:52] <zeeshan> which is why its a bit confusing to me.
[20:24:59] <zeeshan> usually you put DC current through an eddy brake
[20:25:03] <zeeshan> to make it function
[20:25:11] <zeeshan> (and cause braking action)
[20:25:14] <zeeshan> not the opposite
[20:27:54] <jfigie> OK I don't know how you brake works.
[20:28:18] <jfigie> I see the resistor and it only is connected to 24V power
[20:28:28] <jfigie> not the drive
[20:28:46] <jdh> coil for EM brake insteadd
[20:30:08] <jfigie> anyway if you have any inductive loads like your lube motor running from 24V it is good practice to put a diode in the reverse direction across the load to absorb the energy in the inductance when you switch it off
[20:30:29] <jfigie> it will save your relay contacts
[20:30:34] <zeeshan> lube motor is 110VAC
[20:30:44] <jfigie> OK never mind
[20:30:46] <zeeshan> only inductive load i can think of is the hydraulic solenoid
[20:31:02] <zeeshan> the relays have builtin flyback diode
[20:31:11] <zeeshan> but i feel like the sudden rush of current will harm the power supply
[20:31:22] <zeeshan> i've seen people put RC snubber circuits in parallel with the solenoid
[20:31:27] <zeeshan> to lessen the demand on the power supply
[20:31:54] <jfigie> I think a diode would work but it will slow the turn off
[20:32:27] <jfigie> the diode would go across the solenoid
[20:32:50] <zeeshan> youre using the diode to stop back EMF?
[20:33:23] <jfigie> absorb energy in the inductance
[20:33:29] <zeeshan> http://www.ceejay.com/img_aler/aler27_0.gif
[20:33:32] <zeeshan> theres the 3 types i see
[20:33:32] <jfigie> yes like back EMF
[20:33:36] <zeeshan> youre talking about bottom right
[20:33:40] <jfigie> yes
[20:34:01] <jfigie> the snubber will be faster but allow a higher voltage at turn off
[20:34:32] <jfigie> The varistor will also allow faster turn off
[20:34:54] <zeeshan> never used a varistor before
[20:34:56] <zeeshan> must read about it :)
[20:35:14] <jfigie> but I wouldn't use a varistor they have limited life dependent on how hard you make them work
[20:35:50] <jfigie> Some kind of transient suppression diode would be better
[20:36:01] <zeeshan> the diode in the bottom right
[20:36:08] <zeeshan> what is its disadvantage?
[20:36:18] <jfigie> It all depends on how bit the inductance and how large the currents are
[20:36:41] <jfigie> the disadvantage with the diiode in the bottom right is when you try to turn off the coil
[20:36:59] <jfigie> it will take more time for the current to go to zero
[20:37:19] <jfigie> the current will circulate in the diode for a longer time that the other circuits
[20:37:50] <zeeshan> i like the resistor thing
[20:37:53] <zeeshan> cause its easier to wire
[20:37:54] <zeeshan> lol
[20:37:57] <zeeshan> i mean the diode method
[20:38:24] <jfigie> It turn off time is not a concern I think the diode is best
[20:38:46] <zeeshan> well that depends
[20:38:50] <zeeshan> if its a second its not a big deal
[20:38:58] <zeeshan> cause this is the solenoid that disengages the tool clamp
[20:39:05] <zeeshan> but if its 5-6 seconds
[20:39:07] <zeeshan> that can be annoying :)
[20:39:27] <jfigie> I can't imagine it being longer than a second
[20:39:45] <zeeshan> im assuming the electrical characteristics of the diode
[20:39:50] <zeeshan> determine the time?
[20:40:28] <jfigie> well somewhat. it is the forward voltage and nearly all diode are about the same 0.7V
[20:40:54] <zeeshan> i guess this isn't any different than the diodes that are built in parallel
[20:40:57] <zeeshan> in coils for relays
[20:40:57] <jfigie> the biggest factor is the inductance
[20:40:59] <zeeshan> or contactors
[20:41:36] <zeeshan> i unforonately dont have mcuh info on the specs of the hydraulic solenoid
[20:41:38] <jfigie> the diode needs to be able to handle the current that the coil has when energized
[20:41:41] <zeeshan> its an old bosch solenoid
[20:41:48] <zeeshan> it draws about 2.5A
[20:41:54] <zeeshan> _i think_
[20:42:00] <jfigie> So use a 5A diode
[20:43:06] <jfigie> or even a smaller one. It only gets used for a few hundred milliseconds each time you turn off the solenoid
[20:43:38] <jfigie> Keep the diode close to the coil with short wires
[20:43:56] <zeeshan> hm that might not be possible
[20:44:01] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15433256520/
[20:44:06] <zeeshan> thats the connector for the solenoid
[20:44:31] <zeeshan> kinda hard to get a diode in there :)
[20:44:34] <jfigie> yep there are always compromises
[20:44:48] <zeeshan> maybe a RC snubber circuit might be better
[20:45:23] <jfigie> the leads to the solenoid are bundled together and that helps
[20:46:25] <jfigie> if the leads are twisted then even better
[20:47:10] <jfigie> I think a diode will be fine
[20:47:33] <zeeshan> what are the chances there is a diode already built in
[20:47:36] <zeeshan> i should look :)
[20:47:50] <zeeshan> impossible to find a manual for this
[20:48:45] <jfigie> if it is built in then you will have 2 diodes and that wont hurt either
[20:49:10] <jfigie> I doubt that there is one in there
[20:51:11] <zeeshan> this is where i need an oscilliscope
[20:51:17] <zeeshan> i could measure the inrush current :/
[20:51:24] <zeeshan> and see if it has a diode
[20:54:10] <PCW> or a lab supply (set current limit to 1A and check the voltage across the coil both ways)
[20:54:29] <zeeshan> dont have a lab supply :/
[20:54:43] <zeeshan> ive been eyeing the rigol oscilloscope
[20:54:52] <zeeshan> maybe i should bite the bullet and purchase
[20:56:11] <zeeshan> when most cnc machines are turned off
[20:56:27] <zeeshan> cnc mills that is.. how do they prevent the table from falling down
[20:56:32] <zeeshan> when the machine is powered down
[20:57:10] <jfigie> I suspect that the motor that drives an axis that can fall will have a parking brake
[20:58:12] <jfigie> what is your machine
[20:58:13] <jfigie> ?
[20:58:20] <zeeshan> mikron wf21c
[20:58:24] <zeeshan> youre right
[20:58:26] <zeeshan> it doesnt have a diode built in.
[20:58:27] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti3t81sxkky36in/AAAGffuUME_d8rCreVbBW2Jxa/SCHEMATICS?dl=0#lh:null-maho_400e_schematics_11.png
[20:58:31] <zeeshan> using a similar machines schematics
[20:58:36] <zeeshan> they have an external diode. it looks like
[20:58:54] <zeeshan> but they had it in the machine.
[20:58:57] <zeeshan> machine controller
[20:58:59] <zeeshan> not at the solenoid
[21:00:23] <jfigie> that looks like a nice machine
[21:00:40] <zeeshan> :D
[21:00:45] <zeeshan> i hope to get it running in a couple weeks
[21:00:52] <zeeshan> just trying to finish up the controller wiring
[21:00:55] <jfigie> 3 motion axis?
[21:01:13] <zeeshan> yes
[21:01:23] <zeeshan> but im converting to 5 axis
[21:02:36] <jfigie> adding rotary axes on the table?
[21:02:40] <zeeshan> yes
[21:02:57] <zeeshan> id like to add a trunion table
[21:03:27] <ssi> this is astounding
[21:03:27] <zeeshan> but iu wanna make it so i can remove it too
[21:03:27] <ssi> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/509430931/faradair-new-eco-aircraft-called-beha
[21:03:34] <zeeshan> ssi
[21:03:36] <zeeshan> wtf mate
[21:03:38] <zeeshan> did you hurt yourself
[21:03:44] <ssi> a little
[21:03:47] <zeeshan> how
[21:03:56] <ssi> I stepped in a 4' deep hole in the dark
[21:04:01] <zeeshan> lol
[21:04:01] <zeeshan> wtf
[21:04:05] <zeeshan> random 4' hole?
[21:04:18] <ssi> I was in a ww2 antiaircraft bunker on an island
[21:04:28] <ssi> concrete hole
[21:04:29] <ssi> heh
[21:04:37] <zeeshan> ow
[21:06:55] <jfigie> what was the original controller Heidenhain?
[21:07:03] <zeeshan> jfigie: yes tnc150
[21:07:18] <zeeshan> ssi did you know the amc drives
[21:07:21] <jfigie> By BP had a TNC 151
[21:07:23] <zeeshan> have an internal brake resistor
[21:07:29] <zeeshan> jfigie: haha nice!
[21:07:33] <zeeshan> almsot the exact same controller.
[21:07:35] <ssi> no
[21:07:45] <jfigie> one day I went to turn in on and nothing happened
[21:07:49] <zeeshan> yea i was just looking at the manual
[21:07:50] <zeeshan> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be25a20ac.pdf
[21:07:56] <zeeshan> last comment in the red bullet point
[21:07:58] <zeeshan> on the right
[21:08:01] <zeeshan> "internal brake/shunt resistor"
[21:08:29] <zeeshan> jfigie: theyre stupid expensive to fix
[21:08:32] <ssi> nsice
[21:09:08] <jfigie> yes Hiedenhain said I could get if fixed for $4000.
[21:09:26] <zeeshan> haha
[21:09:35] <zeeshan> only thing worth keeping from that controller
[21:09:37] <zeeshan> is the glass scales
[21:09:38] <jfigie> but being about 20 years old at the time I didn't thing that was a good ides
[21:09:39] <zeeshan> and interpolator boards
[21:09:56] <jfigie> I used the analog boards
[21:10:03] <jfigie> with the original encoders
[21:10:10] <zeeshan> you had scales
[21:10:14] <zeeshan> ?
[21:10:24] <zeeshan> you must have had em
[21:10:25] <jfigie> encoders on the motos=rs
[21:10:28] <jfigie> motors
[21:10:28] <zeeshan> wow
[21:10:33] <zeeshan> i didnt know that controller worked like that
[21:11:03] <jfigie> http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html
[21:11:25] <zeeshan> wow
[21:11:28] <zeeshan> thats a BIG ass bridgeport
[21:12:50] <zeeshan> http://www.machineability.com/BPseriesII_files/EncoderBd.jpg
[21:12:53] <zeeshan> i really like how you did that.
[21:13:05] <jfigie> thanks
[21:13:14] <zeeshan> howd you connect wires
[21:13:16] <zeeshan> to that red header thing
[21:13:18] <jfigie> I had to do some reverse engineering
[21:13:20] <zeeshan> on the bottom
[21:13:28] <zeeshan> thats a 800$ board
[21:13:29] <zeeshan> btw
[21:13:33] <zeeshan> :D
[21:13:46] <jfigie> I sold the other boards
[21:14:08] <zeeshan> see youre smart
[21:14:09] <zeeshan> you figured it out
[21:14:27] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15536189301/
[21:14:34] <zeeshan> i had the same board
[21:14:37] <zeeshan> couldnt figure it out
[21:14:39] <zeeshan> i wish i talked to you before
[21:14:40] <zeeshan> lol
[21:14:44] <jfigie> yes that is just like mine
[21:15:03] <zeeshan> pcw gave me a link to some othe rboards
[21:15:10] <zeeshan> i paid like 60 bux for them
[21:15:35] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15188551783/
[21:15:37] <zeeshan> bottom right
[21:15:42] <zeeshan> i like how theyre compact
[21:16:33] <zeeshan> i bought some molex connectors
[21:16:39] <jfigie> yes. I found out about those after mine was done
[21:16:47] <zeeshan> im gonna chop the wire off and plug em in
[21:16:50] <zeeshan> hopefully it works.
[21:17:02] <zeeshan> the board you have
[21:17:07] <zeeshan> did it get powrted by 5V?
[21:17:20] <jfigie> 5 and 15V
[21:17:45] <jfigie> above the board is a 15V and 5 V supply
[21:18:03] <zeeshan> very clean conversion :D
[21:19:47] <jfigie> thank you. the encoders have sine and cosine outputs. and the analog board has comparitors that resolve the sine and cos cycles into smaller increments.
[21:20:07] <ssi> resolvers then
[21:20:13] <ssi> I actually rather like resolvers
[21:20:16] <jfigie> not resolbers
[21:20:19] <zeeshan> no theyre not resolvers
[21:20:22] <jfigie> resolvers
[21:20:23] <ssi> no?
[21:20:47] <ssi> oh I know what you mean
[21:20:57] <zeeshan> i forget why
[21:21:02] <zeeshan> but i went through this a while ago with pcw
[21:21:03] <ssi> resolvers are transformers
[21:21:03] <zeeshan> haha
[21:21:06] <ssi> the analog encoders aren't
[21:21:07] <jfigie> no instead of square a quad b they are sine and cosine
[21:21:54] <zeeshan> jfigie: that work you did on the series 1
[21:21:55] <zeeshan> holy cow
[21:22:05] <ssi> yeah that's insanity
[21:22:13] <ssi> I can't imagine putting that much work into a machine like that
[21:22:15] <zeeshan> he scraped the whole table
[21:22:15] <zeeshan> lol
[21:22:21] <zeeshan> that is hardcore
[21:22:42] <jfigie> I mostly did it for the challenge
[21:22:57] <zeeshan> turned into the hulk after you were done?
[21:23:01] <XXCoder> heys
[21:23:08] <zeeshan> scraping looks labour intensive :)
[21:23:35] <jfigie> I scraped 1/4 of the table by hand then I borrowed a biax from a guy I know
[21:23:35] <ssi> I tried to scrape a piece of durabar flat once
[21:23:37] <ssi> gave up on it :P
[21:24:02] <jfigie> I will never scrap something that big by hand again
[21:24:08] <zeeshan> haha
[21:24:09] <zeeshan> :D
[21:24:10] <jfigie> Biax is the only way to go
[21:24:34] <zeeshan> looks like an expensive tool
[21:24:41] <XXCoder> nahh toothbrush is best ;)
[21:24:50] <zeeshan> lol
[21:24:59] <zeeshan> wow they range from 400+
[21:24:59] <jfigie> yes he bought his off from crags list
[21:25:04] <zeeshan> brand new for 1500
[21:25:11] <jfigie> new they are $thousands
[21:25:18] <jfigie> i think
[21:26:22] <zeeshan> man
[21:26:25] <zeeshan> im looking at my old pics
[21:26:32] <zeeshan> i dont see a single diode in the controller.
[21:26:37] <zeeshan> i wonder where the hell it was
[21:29:02] <jfigie> The problem with standard BP series I is that the tables develop a crown over the years form clamping things to the t slots
[21:29:15] <jfigie> the pulling force eventually warps the table
[21:29:49] <jfigie> so a typical machine will be 2 or 3 thousandths high in the middle
[21:34:06] <zeeshan> "table compensation in emc"
[21:34:06] <zeeshan> :D
[21:34:17] <zeeshan> that would be kinda cool
[21:34:19] <zeeshan> probe your table
[21:34:24] <zeeshan> generate a compensation table
[21:34:44] <jfigie> I have seen discussion about that for PC board milling
[21:34:56] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15867896489/
[21:34:59] <zeeshan> i found board :D
[21:35:39] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15866490408/
[21:35:47] <zeeshan> tell me thats a diode.
[21:35:49] * zeeshan looks up
[21:36:01] <zeeshan> son of a.
[21:36:03] <zeeshan> its a rectifier
[21:36:05] <jfigie> those gold things are resistors
[21:36:35] <jfigie> the square things are bridge rectifiers
[21:36:49] <jfigie> which are 4 diodes
[21:36:54] <zeeshan> i know those resistors are the braking resistors
[21:37:00] <zeeshan> for the servos
[21:37:16] <zeeshan> but the cap and the bridge rectifier i think were used for 24vdc control supply
[21:37:33] <jfigie> probably
[21:37:40] <zeeshan> these mystery diodes that were in parallel with the solenoid are no where to be found
[21:37:57] <zeeshan> Tom_itx was right
[21:38:01] <zeeshan> ill need to do another digikey order :(
[21:45:08] * Tom_itx snickers
[21:45:13] <zeeshan> haha
[21:45:48] <Tom_itx> get some fast ones
[21:45:59] <zeeshan> maybe i can find these diodes locally
[21:46:06] <zeeshan> 5A doesnt seem like a lotta current :P
[21:47:06] <jfigie> fast ones are good but they don't need to be fast
[21:47:26] <jfigie> reverse recovery is not important here
[21:47:46] <zeeshan> ah shit
[21:47:51] <zeeshan> i forgot they need to be 24vdc too
[21:47:56] <zeeshan> i was looking at my zener diode collection
[21:48:00] <zeeshan> theyre all low voltage stuff :/
[21:48:06] <Tom_itx> 24v isn't much
[21:48:26] <zeeshan> i have 1n750A
[21:48:28] <zeeshan> its no good
[21:48:38] <zeeshan> 4.7V, 75mA
[21:49:25] <zeeshan> if i want it to operate at 24vdc
[21:49:31] <zeeshan> i need to get 24vdc zener diode?
[21:49:33] <zeeshan> or slightly more?
[21:49:48] <jfigie> dont use a zener
[21:50:00] <zeeshan> what kind to use :)
[21:50:04] <Tom_itx> not for blocking
[21:50:10] <Tom_itx> standard diode
[21:50:17] <jfigie> general purpose
[21:50:20] <Tom_itx> 2x voltage
[21:50:35] <Tom_itx> if it's 24v make sure it will take at least 48v
[21:51:05] <jfigie> even a In4007 would work
[21:51:15] <jfigie> 1 amp continuous 30 A peak
[21:51:24] <jfigie> easy to find
[21:51:48] <jfigie> actually 1n4004
[21:51:59] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/SB540E-G/641-1419-2-ND/2075755
[21:52:50] <zeeshan> i thought we wanted 5A
[21:52:57] <zeeshan> i actually dont know whow much the solenoid consumes
[21:53:01] <zeeshan> i should measur eit.
[21:53:02] <jfigie> that one will never fail in this application
[21:53:15] <Tom_itx> find it in single quantities now
[21:53:17] <zeeshan> i wish the firgging solenoid had a marking on it.
[21:53:23] <zeeshan> about how much it consumes
[21:53:24] <zeeshan> so annoying
[21:53:27] <zeeshan> it says 24vDC thats it
[21:53:36] <jfigie> amp meter?
[21:53:43] <zeeshan> jfigie: so if i have the solenoid in parallel
[21:53:55] <jfigie> with the diode
[21:54:08] <zeeshan> but the parallel branch of the solenoid is about i would say..... 8 feet from where the enclosure it
[21:54:09] <zeeshan> *is
[21:54:14] <zeeshan> so you think that'll cause huge issues?
[21:54:45] <jfigie> the wires to and from are together so I think it will be OK
[21:55:08] <Tom_itx> the diode isn't directly across the coil?
[21:55:13] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: exactly
[21:55:23] <Tom_itx> you may want it as close to that as you can
[21:55:24] <jfigie> the currents will be in opposite directions so the fields will cancel
[21:55:33] <jfigie> in the long wires
[21:55:41] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15433256520/
[21:55:45] <zeeshan> there is no clean way to mount it there
[21:56:09] <zeeshan> ps that area is a lot cleaner now :)
[21:56:20] <zeeshan> it had years of crud back there
[21:56:56] <zeeshan> i noticed that this solenoid was demanding on the power supply when i was doing this:
[21:57:11] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n39CqxrhkVg
[21:57:16] <Tom_itx> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SB5100E-G/641-1421-1-ND/2075785
[21:57:27] <zeeshan> i was shorting the +24vdc wire physically on the power supply rail
[21:57:29] <zeeshan> and saw big sparks :)
[21:57:34] <jfigie> It had long wires before so I don't see why ii shouldn't work now
[21:58:59] <jfigie> you probably saw sparks from the inductive kick back that is what he diode is for.
[21:59:06] <zeeshan> yes
[21:59:22] <zeeshan> i think this is the only loose end in the 24vdc circuits
[21:59:24] <zeeshan> and i can start wiring it
[21:59:37] <zeeshan> all the contactors, relay coils have flybacks
[22:01:08] <zeeshan> ugh i cant decide
[22:01:12] <zeeshan> if i should try to power the system up right now
[22:01:17] <zeeshan> with no loads attached
[22:01:21] <zeeshan> to test my wiring
[22:01:27] <Tom_itx> oh go ahead
[22:01:33] <zeeshan> ive never turned on a vfd
[22:01:34] <Tom_itx> you gotta do it sometime
[22:01:36] <zeeshan> with no motor leads attached
[22:01:45] <jfigie> it should be ok
[22:01:45] <zeeshan> and i only have 15A avaiable in this room
[22:01:46] <Tom_itx> can't tell you about that
[22:01:57] <Tom_itx> it will either work or get very dark
[22:02:00] <zeeshan> hahaha
[22:02:07] <Tom_itx> get a flashlight
[22:02:10] <Tom_itx> first
[22:02:38] <zeeshan> i think the VFD will go in error mode
[22:02:43] <zeeshan> when it detects a phase error
[22:02:47] <zeeshan> on the load side
[22:02:52] <zeeshan> i forget, ive read about it
[22:02:54] <zeeshan> fak it time to try
[22:03:05] * Tom_itx puts up the blast shield
[22:03:09] <jfigie> Thats ok if it errors
[22:03:12] <zeeshan> only got 14awg wire
[22:03:17] <jfigie> it wont hurt anything
[22:03:18] <zeeshan> to connect to the mains
[22:03:18] <zeeshan> ahhaha
[22:04:09] <Tom_itx> i didn't have my transformers in phase the first try
[22:05:10] <zeeshan> ugh
[22:05:16] <zeeshan> i just realized, without the 24vdc hooked up
[22:05:22] <zeeshan> none of the contactors will work
[22:05:25] <zeeshan> and no power will get to the device
[22:05:26] <zeeshan> haha
[22:05:44] <zeeshan> ill hook up the 24vdc circuit then move this whole thing to the garage
[22:05:46] <zeeshan> and try it out
[22:06:27] <jfigie> Is machine in garage?
[22:06:30] <zeeshan> yes
[22:06:34] <zeeshan> but the controller is in my bedroom
[22:06:34] <zeeshan> haha
[22:06:36] <jfigie> is it heated
[22:06:39] <zeeshan> yea
[22:06:43] <zeeshan> but its a pain to work in there
[22:06:59] <jfigie> are you in cold climate?
[22:07:11] <zeeshan> cause my damn welding table is occupied by a 200 lb chunk of steel that im welding up
[22:07:14] <zeeshan> yes
[22:07:19] <zeeshan> near toronto canada
[22:07:24] <jfigie> I am in Wisconsin
[22:07:37] <zeeshan> not far away
[22:07:47] <jfigie> Milwaukee
[22:08:20] <zeeshan> if lake michigan and lake huron werent in the way
[22:08:28] <zeeshan> i could drive straight across to milwaukee :)
[22:08:48] <jfigie> yes it can be bad getting around Chicago
[22:10:18] <roycroft> i grew up in chicago
[22:10:25] <roycroft> it's always been bad getting around chicago
[22:11:05] <jfigie> zeeshan good luck on your retrofit. I am a bit envious :) Anyway I am going to go now
[22:11:10] <roycroft> and worse getting through chicago
[22:11:21] <zeeshan> thanks for the help!
[22:11:27] <zeeshan> no need to be envious
[22:11:31] <zeeshan> your series 2 is a beast
[22:11:41] <jfigie> I like your machine
[22:11:49] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/kIICwO3.png
[22:11:51] <zeeshan> since im a nerd
[22:11:55] <zeeshan> 13 * 50
[22:12:01] <zeeshan> 650km
[22:12:08] <zeeshan> 406 miles
[22:12:10] <zeeshan> thats nothing
[22:12:10] <zeeshan> haha
[22:12:19] <jfigie> :)
[23:21:26] <zeeshan> want to double check this
[23:21:33] <zeeshan> on the mesa7i77
[23:21:41] <zeeshan> when the input has no 24VDC going to it
[23:21:43] <zeeshan> it floats at 0V
[23:21:49] <zeeshan> to make it change state
[23:21:53] <zeeshan> i give it 24VDC right?
[23:21:57] <zeeshan> itll go from 0 to 1 then?
[23:27:48] <renesis> typically you dont really 'float' at a voltage
[23:28:29] <renesis> its 0v or its floating, if its floating, voltage is going to depend on parasitic capacitance and what youre referencing
