#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-11-13

[02:15:24] <Deejay> moin
[02:15:56] * Jymmmm looks at the clock.... eh, fuck it.
[02:26:59] <Deejay> :-)
[02:39:18] <archivist> Rab, there is a sliding 6 start system made by Igus made in a variety of options and sizes http://www.igus.co.uk/wpck/10816/SD_Gewindetriebe?C=GB&L=en
[02:40:59] <Jymmm> Whats the pros/cons of multi start leadscrews?
[03:09:58] <archivist> speed
[03:33:20] <Tom_itx> ^^
[03:35:52] <Jymmm> Does anyone know if a hot water heater leaks/bursts in the middle of the night, will it keep trying to heat the water?
[03:38:00] <Jymmm> (gas)
[03:39:54] <renesis> scary
[03:50:01] <Jymmm> Actually, I think I'll just turn the water heater to PILOT. That should prevent glowing metal at least =)
[03:50:33] <Tom_itx> you don't want a nuclear meltdown??
[03:51:15] <Tom_itx> i've never seen one burst
[03:51:27] <Tom_itx> rather drip for quite a long time first
[03:53:11] <Jymmm> it leaked about 16 ounces, then stop, then continous slow leak, that increases after a shower.
[03:53:38] <Jymmm> The pan is just rusting out and I don't want any surprises in the middle of the night.
[03:53:58] <Tom_itx> residue in the bottom was plugging the hole
[03:54:35] <Jymmm> I flushed the tank a ways back, but that doen'st mean I got everything out.
[03:55:58] <Jymmm> Now I just have the 40+ gallons to deal with. Beats a river flowing thru the garage =)
[03:56:06] <Tom_itx> buy a cheap one to replace it... they're all the same
[03:56:27] <Tom_itx> they bet against the warranty
[03:56:28] <Jymmm> The slumlord is coming tomorrow.
[03:57:21] <Tom_itx> oh well you'll get another used one from a different unit :D
[03:57:32] <Jymmm> again.
[04:20:41] <archivist_herron> get out of the slum get your own place
[05:10:22] * Loetmichel has fun again... i have to design a aluminium billet milled part. red line is the outline of a 8mm high cap... but the part at the EMI-Comression fitting has to be 14mm high... that will be a LOT of milling... wall size is 1.5mm at max or it will not fit inside the keyboard :-( -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15371
[05:11:42] <SpeedEvil> why mak it out of one part?
[05:12:04] <Loetmichel> do you have a better idea?
[05:12:07] <SpeedEvil> If that's an EMC shield - making it milled is insane
[05:12:39] <SpeedEvil> a little tinned steel box, made from 0.5mm steel and soldered at teh edges
[05:13:28] <Loetmichel> tried that. doesent work
[05:13:49] <Loetmichel> you cant get it connected wuite right at the corners to the PCB/keyboard foil
[05:14:18] <Loetmichel> and it has to hold the forces of the cable in the comression fitting
[05:14:25] <Loetmichel> so it has to be kind of rigid
[05:15:05] <SpeedEvil> What's this for
[05:15:15] <SpeedEvil> is it to replace the shielding you cut off?
[05:16:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/60mm-x-5M-EMI-EMC-Copper-Foil-Shielding-Tape-Adhesive-Conductive-/261503586546?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item3ce2d410f2 - for example - and solder the edges to the pcb
[05:17:19] <SpeedEvil> Is that a stock compression fitting?
[05:17:57] <Loetmichel> the shieling i cut off proved not to be sufficient
[05:17:57] <SpeedEvil> Also - do you actually need EMC shielding?
[05:18:01] <Loetmichel> it was a test
[05:18:16] <Loetmichel> we do shielding against tempest attacks
[05:18:16] <SpeedEvil> What are you trying to do
[05:18:19] <SpeedEvil> ah
[05:19:13] <SpeedEvil> What is the internal EMC prevention?
[05:19:18] <SpeedEvil> Is it USB/PS2?
[05:19:40] <Loetmichel> usb
[05:20:13] <SpeedEvil> Several things I'd think about to cheat.
[05:20:39] <SpeedEvil> First - don't do that - put the cable through a little PCB to limit slew rate and add ferrites.
[05:20:54] <SpeedEvil> It doesn't need to go faster than USB1 - 1.5mbps
[05:21:16] <SpeedEvil> that is - an internally mounted cable to the little socket
[05:22:07] <Loetmichel> it is a compression fitting specially made for emi shielding, so the shielding of the cable can contaced inside that all the wyaay around
[05:22:07] <Loetmichel> wrong
[05:22:07] <Loetmichel> the cardreader wants to connect as USB2
[05:22:07] <Loetmichel> (the upright part on the left)
[05:22:47] <vapula> how about making the whole surface a thin magnet ?
[05:22:50] <SpeedEvil> you can have USB2 at 1.5mbps
[05:22:59] <SpeedEvil> Indeed, usb3
[05:23:02] <Loetmichel> i meant 480Mbit
[05:23:21] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: have you actually checked that.
[05:23:25] <Loetmichel> yes
[05:23:28] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: that seems extremely unlikely
[05:23:33] <Loetmichel> it is
[05:23:38] <Loetmichel> i checlked a few times
[05:23:41] <SpeedEvil> Simply as 480mbps chips are considerably more expensive
[05:23:54] <Loetmichel> and actually high frequencies are easier to shield than low ones ;-)
[05:23:56] <SpeedEvil> Youy do know that 'USB2' peripherals aren't all 480mbps?
[05:24:04] <Loetmichel> and we only have to measure up to 4ghz... ;-)
[05:24:37] <Loetmichel> i do, and i checked the frequencies, it connects as hi-speed-device
[05:24:46] <Loetmichel> says the spectrum analyzer
[05:24:47] <SpeedEvil> Your task is what - to make this keyboard work, or to redesign it?
[05:24:53] <Loetmichel> the baseline is clearly to se
[05:25:09] <Loetmichel> redesing to meet Sdip27 rules
[05:25:31] <SpeedEvil> I'd say milled is vast overkill.
[05:25:38] <Loetmichel> thats why there is a brass sheet underneath the key foil already
[05:25:53] <Loetmichel> and the shielding tape on top
[05:25:54] <SpeedEvil> Firstly - what spectrum limits are you hitting, and how dramatically?
[05:26:22] <SpeedEvil> And where is this coming from - USB, keyboard scanning, card reader, ...
[05:26:33] <Loetmichel> not allowd to disclose the levels, but i am about 8db abboce limit at certain frequencys with shielding tape alone
[05:26:39] <Loetmichel> above
[05:27:28] <Loetmichel> somewhere from the board, the sniffing anenna isnt more precise than that
[05:27:48] <SpeedEvil> what frequency? Low, or high? Are you picking up thematrix scanning - or USB outputs
[05:28:07] <Loetmichel> an i can Tell you that the allowed leves are about 20-40 db BELOW CE emi requirements
[05:28:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah - CE is not really for this :)
[05:28:44] <Loetmichel> i would say something from the controller, around 8 mhz and harmonics
[05:29:08] <Loetmichel> up to 1ghz
[05:30:02] <SpeedEvil> My first step would be to look hard at the microcontroller.
[05:30:13] <SpeedEvil> For example - decoupling of the power supply close to the chip
[05:31:28] <SpeedEvil> Other than that - I'd try removing the keyboard matrix - and seeing if it's conducted EMI radiated through that
[05:31:46] <SpeedEvil> it's a pity that the best way to fix this is a redesign - but...
[05:32:20] <SpeedEvil> - slow all of the keyboard lines down so there is no energy over 10khz going into them
[05:32:35] <Loetmichel> as my boss already told me to do the aluminium cap, i frankly have no way to do that or i risk some chewing out
[05:32:36] <SpeedEvil> then you can lose all of the expensive brass and shielding
[05:32:38] <SpeedEvil> k
[05:32:49] <SpeedEvil> sorry for the distraction :)
[05:33:01] <Loetmichel> no problem, i am willing to learn...
[05:33:17] <Loetmichel> HF isnt my core field of experience ;-9
[05:33:25] <SpeedEvil> The existing shielding looks like it's been soldered to the PCB
[05:33:33] <SpeedEvil> Or at least heat-sealed
[05:34:00] <SpeedEvil> you'll probably need to solder copper strips to the edges of the PCB, and then connect those to the aluminium all the way round
[05:34:03] <Loetmichel> no, its just a shielding tape made of nylon 2felt" sputtered with nickel+
[05:34:10] <Loetmichel> and a conductive cglue
[05:34:10] <SpeedEvil> conductive adhesive may be adequate
[05:34:25] <SpeedEvil> then it's probably hot-barred downto the solder pads around the edge of the PCB
[05:34:45] <SpeedEvil> Good luck
[05:34:54] <Loetmichel> btw: a spool of tthis tape costs 800 eur
[05:35:00] <SpeedEvil> I should stop distracting myself, and go and cut some roofing stuff.
[05:35:02] <Loetmichel> thats for 30m long 30cm wide tape
[05:35:14] <SpeedEvil> yeah - EMC stuff is insanely expensive if you want the good stuff and not simple copper/...
[05:35:18] <SpeedEvil> heh
[05:35:24] <Loetmichel> so brass and even the aluminium part is MUCH cheaper ;-)
[05:35:26] <SpeedEvil> at that price - screw metals.
[05:35:36] <SpeedEvil> Going fully optical for the key matrix may be cheaper
[05:36:15] <SpeedEvil> I should wander off and cut floors :)
[05:36:22] <Loetmichel> one problem of that is the standing order to "stay inside the original enclosure if possible"
[05:36:37] <Loetmichel> ... which talkes some thinking sometinmes ;-9
[05:54:40] <jthornton> while this sounds good there is something wrong when I translate it to python http://slabode.exofire.net/circle_draw.shtml
[06:14:12] <jdh> jt: I would think that drawing arc/circle woudl be a known science with lots of code to borrow. is this not the case?
[06:21:40] <jthornton> that's the only one I've found so far
[06:21:58] <jthornton> maybe my search terms are wrong
[06:23:01] <archivist_herron> that is basic trig to divide up the arc/circle, should be easy to debug a version of it
[06:29:44] <jthornton> looks like Bresenham's circle algorithm is popular after changing search terms
[06:34:55] <archivist_herron> bresenham is a bit different, it is used on pixels rather than lines normally
[06:35:38] <jthornton> well carp I didn't pick up on that
[06:37:32] <archivist_herron> there may well be more than one bresenham algo. I was playing with arcs some years ago, good book(5 in set) with most methods is Graphics Gems
[06:38:04] <archivist_herron> you can download the books code without getting the books
[06:56:43] <jthornton> this page? http://tog.acm.org/resources/GraphicsGems/
[07:08:09] <jthornton> found this in the pdf http://pastebin.com/Hx8c3k0c
[07:12:03] <jthornton> I can't seem to find the code for A Good Straight-Line Approximation of a Circular Arc GGII p435 code p617
[07:23:23] <mozmck1> jthornton: the one you posted a link to yesterday about OpenGL?
[07:24:17] <jthornton> the one I tried yesterday did not work to draw a circle or an arc... it kinda worked but not
[07:24:21] <mozmck1> http://slabode.exofire.net/circle_draw.shtml
[07:24:44] <jthornton> that's the one that didn't work
[07:24:48] <mozmck1> oh, ok
[07:25:15] <jthornton> well I didn't try the first one but the second and third one don't work
[07:25:48] <archivist> I imaging it is not the original code that is in error :)
[07:30:18] <mozmck1> It may have to do with your GL setup. Lighting and normals is another fun area :)
[07:31:43] <mozmck1> I made this call just before generating vertexes: glNormal3d(0.0, 0.0, -1.0); //normal pointing down
[07:32:53] <mozmck1> If the normal is not correct, you may be looking at the invisible backside of a circle, depending on the order you generate the vertexes.
[07:32:54] <jthornton> let me try that, I had some code to put it in 2d I think
[07:34:13] <mozmck1> oops, actually use 1.0 for the last argument - that one was for the bottom of a cylinder.
[07:34:53] <jthornton> this is my 2d setup http://pastebin.com/kysBZemy
[07:36:26] <jthornton> this is where I'm at now http://pastebin.com/rK8bFQVu
[07:49:54] <jthornton> I can draw lines and they show up where I expect them to show up so I really think the arc/circle algorithms that I'm currently using are flawed
[07:54:39] <archivist> remember you are only drawing lines even with those algorithms
[07:55:02] <jthornton> yea, lots of short lines
[07:55:04] <archivist> single step and debug your code
[07:57:39] <jthornton> as I see it I'm really calculating a bunch of triangles
[07:58:50] <archivist> yes
[08:17:12] <mozmck1> jthornton: the problem in your draw_circle_slow() is math.radians(theta)
[08:18:16] <mozmck1> theta is already in radians (that's why it's multiplied by 2 * pi), so using math.radians converts it to garbage
[08:18:54] <mozmck1> I see you did that in draw_circle as well, that probably the problem there as well.
[08:28:38] <mozmck> logger[psha]: log
[08:28:38] <logger[psha]> mozmck: Log stored at http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23linuxcnc/2014-11-13.html
[08:44:47] <jthornton> mozmck, thanks I just assumed it was in degrees
[08:45:32] <jthornton> thanks for looking at it
[09:16:34] <mozmck> jthornton: no problem!
[09:28:29] <CaptHindsight> anyone ever machine Delrin or nylons to a near polished finish?
[09:34:01] <Loetmichel> capricorn_1: usea VERY sharp mill bit
[09:34:10] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight
[09:34:23] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: I had fair results with a very sharp 2 flute in that impeller video I posted a while back.
[09:34:52] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15256&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[09:35:07] <Loetmichel> gives a mirror finish on POM
[09:36:11] <Loetmichel> i used TC 2 flute bits ground to cut aluminium
[09:36:30] <Loetmichel> new ones
[09:36:47] <Loetmichel> if they have seen any metal or Fibre plastic the finish is gone
[09:37:35] <CaptHindsight> this would have to be 5-axis, the parts are all contoured surfaces
[09:37:45] <FinboySlick> Trick might be to spin it just fast enough to avoid melting but that likely depends very much on your geometry.
[09:38:48] <archivist> mirror finish and machining is an oxymoron
[09:39:58] <CaptHindsight> aiming as much as possible for the look of parts injection molded for protos
[09:41:03] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: I imagine you can't flame-polish delrin as nicely as one might lexan/plexy, right?
[09:41:23] <archivist> often molded parts have a "finish" to allow some machining error
[09:41:50] <archivist> sandblast or similar
[09:43:23] <CaptHindsight> these can be anywhere from a rough texture like #100 sandpaper to high gloss
[09:44:24] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: it might be a flame or plasma mounted on a robot arm to achieve the precision
[09:45:01] <CaptHindsight> I thought maybe this has all be sorted out
[09:45:12] <CaptHindsight> be/been
[09:46:01] <archivist> another cheat is to lacquer the item
[09:46:24] <CaptHindsight> can't cheat
[09:46:34] <CaptHindsight> that would be too easy
[09:46:57] <CaptHindsight> has to be functional
[09:47:40] <archivist> a finish should not affect function
[09:48:02] <CaptHindsight> finish is part of the function
[09:48:18] <CaptHindsight> if it flexes the coating can't flake
[09:48:54] <CaptHindsight> the decoration is part of the function
[09:49:24] <CaptHindsight> if you're prototyping consumer goods the look and feel is important
[09:49:44] <Loetmichel> so sandblast it afterwards
[09:50:15] <Loetmichel> the traces of the mill bit will be visible otherwise, althoug in between the traces there can be mirror finsih with the right bit
[09:50:59] <CaptHindsight> cnc polisher
[09:51:55] <archivist> for metal I use a burnisher
[09:53:45] <zeeshan> archivist: lies
[09:53:49] <zeeshan> "10:27:54] <archivist> a finish should not affect function"
[09:53:50] <zeeshan> :]
[09:53:57] <CaptHindsight> this is all acetal, nylon and other polyamides
[09:54:15] <CaptHindsight> heh, it just depends on your perspective
[09:54:22] <zeeshan> im picking on him
[09:54:24] <zeeshan> cause he makes gears
[09:54:39] <zeeshan> rough gears at least in car applications are a no no
[09:54:50] * archivist picks on zeeshan just for kicks
[09:54:56] <zeeshan> lol
[09:55:03] <CaptHindsight> you call those things in your garage cars?!
[09:55:07] <zeeshan> how do you burnish
[09:55:31] <zeeshan> i remember @ the transmission pump place
[09:55:33] <archivist> with a bit of HSS
[09:55:40] <zeeshan> we used to do a burnishing operation on a journal
[09:56:12] <zeeshan> it was like a hone almost
[09:56:18] <archivist> clock pivots are expected to be mirror finish
[09:56:42] <zeeshan> can you only burnish bores?
[09:56:58] <archivist> no
[09:57:04] <zeeshan> http://www.elliott-tool.com/images/products/header/eng/ID-Roller-Burnishing-Tool.jpg
[09:57:07] <zeeshan> was a tool like that
[09:57:30] <archivist> http://www.eternaltools.com/clock-pivot-files
[09:58:02] <zeeshan> ah
[09:58:16] <zeeshan> was talking to the machinist at school
[09:58:27] <zeeshan> he was telling me a joke i guess
[09:58:33] <zeeshan> american vs swiss
[09:58:59] <zeeshan> so back in the day the americans were all proud of their precision so they sent a swiss company a .001" diameter shaft
[09:59:00] <Rab> CaptHindsight, people are using acetone vapor polishing to pretty up 3D prints. Not sure which solvent you'd need for delrin or nylon.
[09:59:17] <zeeshan> the swiss returned it a couple weeks later
[09:59:20] <zeeshan> with a hole through it :)
[09:59:44] <CaptHindsight> Rab: they do that with PLA
[10:00:10] <archivist> for the bore http://www.rnhorological.co.uk/broaches.htm some cut some burnish
[10:00:21] <CaptHindsight> Rab: have there been any explosions yet?
[10:01:04] <Rab> CaptHindsight, not AFAIK. I don't know how flammable acetone vapor is.
[10:01:13] <archivist> zeeshan, the other version involves Rolls Royce where a tube is returned inside that tube
[10:01:20] <CaptHindsight> Rab: very
[10:01:28] <Loetmichel> extremely flammable. but only in a slamm concentration band
[10:01:32] <zeeshan> archivist: haha
[10:01:32] <Loetmichel> small
[10:01:50] <Rab> CaptHindsight, I'd also be concerned about health effects.
[10:02:39] <zeeshan> rab let the 3d printers die die die
[10:02:41] <Rab> And of course it undermines your dimensional tolerances. But might be worth a try.
[10:02:41] <zeeshan> jk
[10:02:54] <zeeshan> im just jealous :/
[10:02:58] <zeeshan> i need a 3d printer
[10:03:03] <CaptHindsight> Rab: acetal is resistant to many solvents, that is why it is used in industrial applications
[10:03:29] <CaptHindsight> FDM has its place
[10:04:26] <CaptHindsight> it's just that they are over-hyped for applications far out of their range
[10:05:31] <CaptHindsight> you're going to see FDM inside along with inkjet, SLA and SLS in the same machine
[10:08:02] <CaptHindsight> unfortunately those types of designs are beyond the abilities of the maker community
[10:10:36] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: lol
[10:11:22] <zeeshan> okay i need an affirmitive decision on this cause i gotta order more fuse holders
[10:11:38] <zeeshan> nm!
[10:11:42] * zeeshan hides
[10:11:42] <CaptHindsight> I concur
[10:11:53] <zeeshan> im about to put 3 fans in parallel
[10:11:56] <zeeshan> with 1 fuse holder
[10:12:05] <jdh> prallel fans?
[10:12:14] <CaptHindsight> 100ma x 3 = 300ma
[10:12:16] <zeeshan> each fan draws .1A , and im throwing a .5A fuse fuse
[10:12:16] <jdh> vs.?
[10:12:29] <zeeshan> to allow for some overcurrent during initial startup
[10:12:29] <CaptHindsight> go for it!!
[10:12:32] <Rab> zeeshan, do you have the fans already?
[10:12:35] <zeeshan> rab yes
[10:12:45] <zeeshan> im just ordering some fuse holders
[10:12:47] <zeeshan> so i ned to know how many
[10:12:59] <Rab> zeeshan, maybe record the current profile from starting a fan.
[10:13:00] <zeeshan> it really makes no sense to fuse each fan seperately..
[10:13:38] <zeeshan> if my logic is right.. if in the worst case scenario a fan coil shorts
[10:13:44] <jdh> I'd skip the fan fuse.
[10:13:46] <zeeshan> it should be able to handle .5A without going on fire
[10:13:51] <CaptHindsight> use #14 wire for hookup then no matter what the fans will burn up in case of a short even if someone has replaced your fuse with a penny
[10:14:29] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: yes im only really using #14 everywhere
[10:14:35] <zeeshan> especially since i got a 1000 feet of 3 colors
[10:14:37] <zeeshan> !!
[10:15:20] <archivist> use one colour, then you cannot make a mistake because it is the right colour always
[10:15:32] <zeeshan> LOL
[10:15:32] <CaptHindsight> we have 100ma fans everywhere that have locked up when clogged and not a single fire in 25+ years
[10:15:49] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: i guess impedance protection works :D
[10:15:56] <archivist> we wired a raft with one colour :)
[10:16:11] <zeeshan> archivist: i do car wiring mostly in one color
[10:16:28] <zeeshan> but it's labelled every foot
[10:16:31] <jdh> I have one machine where everything is wired with 14 gauge red wire
[10:16:40] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: do you even bother numbering them?
[10:16:53] <jdh> and all the field IO is run back to one cabinet
[10:16:57] <jdh> full of red wires.
[10:17:02] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: i use alphanumeric system + actual name
[10:17:17] <zeeshan> so it'll be E24 "crankshaft pos +"
[10:17:21] <zeeshan> for example
[10:17:30] <zeeshan> very easy to identify
[10:18:03] <CaptHindsight> what does the "E" and the "24" have to do with the crankshaft?
[10:18:09] <CaptHindsight> sounds confusing
[10:18:15] <zeeshan> E is engine subset wiring
[10:18:21] <zeeshan> 24 is 24th sensor
[10:18:28] <zeeshan> wire #1
[10:18:28] <zeeshan> :P
[10:18:39] <zeeshan> if you see D24 for example
[10:18:39] <CaptHindsight> yeah, but I don't know that
[10:18:42] <zeeshan> thats a dash
[10:18:49] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: it's not for you
[10:18:51] <zeeshan> it's for me :)
[10:18:55] <CaptHindsight> E could be for Eddie who wired it
[10:19:22] <zeeshan> sometimes you have dash (gauge) and engine sensor wires in the same bundle
[10:19:30] <archivist> E is for end of wire
[10:19:40] <zeeshan> so if you see D or E
[10:19:45] <zeeshan> you know where the signal is going to or coming from
[10:19:48] <zeeshan> based on the wire location
[10:20:03] <CaptHindsight> they make CNC polishers for planar plastics http://www.republiclaguncnc.com/acrylic_polishing_machine.php
[10:21:24] <CaptHindsight> I can see the infomercial now "no more guessing where the end of the wire is"
[10:21:42] <zeeshan> you guys love picking on me
[10:21:49] <ssi> it's so easy
[10:21:59] <zeeshan> ssi joins the fun
[10:23:06] <Rab> zeeshan, how do you physically label the wires?
[10:23:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.coburntechnologies.com/surfacing/finers_polishers/cobalt.htm
[10:23:44] <ssi> at delta they have machines, you put in the wirebook number, it spits out the exact length of wire, labeled along its length, cut, stripped, and electrically tested
[10:24:04] <zeeshan> rab a wire rpinter
[10:24:06] <Rab> ssi, that is excellent.
[10:24:30] <CaptHindsight> looks like I have to come up with some sort of lapping tool
[10:24:31] <Rab> zeeshan, who makes/how much?
[10:24:34] <zeeshan> with cars is a lot of custom wiring
[10:25:10] <zeeshan> rab mine was from eaton
[10:25:13] <zeeshan> that was getting scrapped
[10:25:27] <Rab> hmm
[10:25:52] <ssi> I have a labelmaker that prints on heatshrink; that's how I typically label wires
[10:25:55] <CaptHindsight> I hate auto wiring diagrams. They don't show all the shared connections.
[10:26:09] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: what car
[10:26:10] <zeeshan> lol
[10:26:17] <zeeshan> jap ones do
[10:26:22] <zeeshan> shit even my rx7 one does from 1992
[10:26:24] <CaptHindsight> true with Nissan
[10:27:25] <archivist> this is what I call a car diagram http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/Lucas/TP/TP11/drg35.jpg
[10:27:32] <CaptHindsight> for example, say pin 111 on the ECU is in one diagram, they don't have an overview of all the other diagrams that connect to pin 111
[10:28:00] <ssi> archivist: it's well documented, but never works :)
[10:29:01] <CaptHindsight> Lucky U Can Actually Start LUCAS
[10:29:59] <jthornton> everything seems to work except the arc, it starts in the right place but does not go far enough http://pastebin.com/HMeDMZZQ
[10:30:30] <CaptHindsight> ssi: have a link to that printer?
[10:30:38] <CaptHindsight> that sounds great
[10:31:46] <CaptHindsight> found one
[10:32:59] <Rab> The Dymo?
[10:33:29] <Rab> Heh, $24.75 for a 5' heat shrink cartridge.
[10:33:45] <jdh> JT: the -1?
[10:34:28] <Rab> I guess that's 60-120 labels if you're concise. I wonder if the printer is sparing with the header and footer.
[10:35:35] <Rab> Brother makes one too.
[10:36:15] <ssi> CaptHindsight: the one I have? it's a dymo rhino I think
[10:36:16] <zeeshan> sorry was on the phone
[10:36:21] <zeeshan> i got a quote on a 65A contactor
[10:36:22] <zeeshan> 90$!!
[10:37:32] <zeeshan> looks like that is a fair price
[10:37:33] <zeeshan> compared to ebay
[10:37:50] <zeeshan> rab we use one made by taym,er
[10:38:21] <zeeshan> i cant find the exact picture online
[10:38:22] <zeeshan> its old
[10:38:49] <Rab> Is it inkjet, or hot stamp, or?
[10:38:55] <zeeshan> hot stamp
[10:38:57] <zeeshan> so no need fore heat shrink
[10:39:01] <zeeshan> prints right on the wire
[10:39:12] <ssi> I'd like to have a machine like that
[10:39:18] <Rab> Hmm, yeah. What's the smallest gauge it can handle?
[10:39:26] <zeeshan> like 22 gauge
[10:44:59] <zeeshan> man this is the time where i wish i worked at eaton
[10:45:09] <zeeshan> i'd go through the scrap pile and prolly find like 2390321089 60A contactors
[10:45:11] <zeeshan> for free :/
[10:50:24] <jdh> add another glVertex2f right before the glEnd() ?
[11:20:05] <JT-Shop> jdh, here is where I'm getting the code from and converting from C to Python http://slabode.exofire.net/circle_draw.shtml
[11:21:17] <JT-Shop> float theta = arc_angle / float(num_segments - 1);//theta is now calculated from the arc angle instead, the - 1 bit comes from the fact that the arc is open
[11:21:27] <JT-Shop> that's from the web page
[11:23:14] <jdh> same loop semantics?
[11:24:24] <jdh> easy enough to check, copy/paste the glVertex2f line.
[11:25:19] <jdh> I'm a big fan of off-by-one errors.
[11:25:40] <jdh> well, not so much fan, but I manage to do it enough.
[11:26:04] <jthornton> I had the grouping wrong for the formula
[11:26:14] <jthornton> theta = arc_angle / (float(segments) -1)
[11:26:40] <jthornton> not theta = (arc_angle / float(segments)) -1
[11:27:41] <jthornton> your question about the -1 tipped me off
[11:27:52] <jdh> neither of those looks correct.
[11:28:09] <jdh> but the first might work
[11:28:11] <jthornton> however I get the correct results
[11:28:31] <jthornton> from theta = arc_angle / (float(segments) -1)
[11:28:35] <jdh> it is poor form to subtract an int from a float
[11:29:01] <jthornton> it gets converted to a float
[11:29:01] <jdh> float (segments -1)
[11:29:12] <jthornton> ok even better
[11:30:33] <jthornton> now to put an opengl window into my gtk window LOL
[11:41:17] <cradek> you realize you copied the code from the "this is the terrible algorithm I'm improving as we go down the page" part?
[11:41:34] <jthornton> the first one yes
[11:41:56] <jthornton> I was trying to sort out where I went wrong with the sin and cos functions
[11:42:03] <renesis> heh
[11:59:09] * JT-Shop has to take the top off the stove and reseal it... yuck what a mess
[11:59:42] <jdh> does that involve cleaning it?
[11:59:45] * SpeedEvil wishes zero expansion coefficient ceramic glas could be bought
[11:59:58] <SpeedEvil> The stuff they put on induction and ceramic hobs
[12:04:24] <JT-Shop> it's clean from spring, I have to take the pipe off and then take the top off. Clean the area the caulk it and put back
[12:05:15] <JT-Shop> lows in the teens for the next few days
[12:07:54] <jdh> yuck
[12:09:17] <ssi> yeah I bought a propane heater for the hangar last night
[12:09:22] <ssi> 80kbtu
[12:10:24] <SpeedEvil> I made 6*2m*15cm*1.2m boxes to stick on the edge of my roof, so Ican get on with insulating under them
[12:10:28] <SpeedEvil> 7
[12:24:28] <CaptHindsight> ssi: does it get cold down there? I thought it rarely gets <20F.
[13:29:47] <ssi> CaptHindsight: gets cold enough
[13:29:55] <ssi> highs are in the mid 40s this week
[13:30:12] <jdh> it will be 36f here this w/e :(
[13:30:15] <ssi> cold enough that it's uncomfortable working in an unheated 10,000sf steel building
[13:30:34] <CaptHindsight> wow even you guys
[13:30:36] <jdh> how high are teh ceilings?
[13:30:40] <ssi> 25'
[13:30:45] <jdh> heh
[13:30:57] <jdh> that's a lot of ft^3
[13:30:58] <CaptHindsight> same as mine, warm and toasty at the top of the stairs
[13:31:11] <jdh> I assuem you mostly have to heat the top 2/3 first
[13:31:39] <ssi> I don't think I could really heat the place properly
[13:31:45] <ssi> definitely not if it's actually cold and the wind is blowing
[13:31:47] <ssi> no insulation
[14:23:31] <CaptHindsight> https://www.crowdsupply.com/klecker-tools/klax expensive ax head
[14:28:54] <SpeedEvil> that's not expensive.
[14:29:30] <SpeedEvil> http://www.casstrom.se/axes/hunting-axe-damasteel.html
[14:30:04] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gen-smide.se/damaskalteng.html
[15:21:10] <LeelooMinai> I get this message when starting linuxcnc inside Debian ISO: "Locked memory limit is 64KiB, recommended at least 20480KiB"
[15:21:26] <LeelooMinai> I checked the limits.conf, and it looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/jZycN8j.png
[15:21:48] <LeelooMinai> Seems like there's already some line for linuxcnc
[15:22:25] <LeelooMinai> ANy ideas why do I get that message?
[15:26:38] <jdh> were you getting this before?
[15:26:51] <LeelooMinai> It's first run really
[15:26:52] <jdh> did it start occuring after you changed a config, or rebuilt linuxcnc?
[15:27:40] <LeelooMinai> TOday I played only with halrun - just trying some commands
[15:29:21] <LeelooMinai> That seemed to work good though - no problems. Exited halrun, started LinuxCNC with some sample axis config and got the message
[15:29:51] <LeelooMinai> So googled, and looked at that limits.config, but it seems to be fine
[15:30:50] <jdh> this is a fresh install or soemthing? I thought you had been running linuxcnc before?
[15:31:09] <LeelooMinai> Yes, that's install from yesterday with that Debian ISO they have now
[15:31:59] <LeelooMinai> So pretty recent stuff I believe
[15:37:58] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, Cannot run latency test today too - weird
[15:42:18] <LeelooMinai> O, hmm, I found what's the problem
[15:42:45] <LeelooMinai> It happens on my vncserver screen only, not on the connected monitor
[15:43:54] <LeelooMinai> BUt I am pretty sure it was working with x11vnc server yesterday...
[15:46:19] <LeelooMinai> Maybe the GUI stuff does not like whatever vncserver provides as the screen
[15:46:52] <jdh> why would you run vncserver with linuxcnc
[15:47:15] <LeelooMinai> To access the machine remotely of course
[15:48:30] <LeelooMinai> The PC is supposed to be monitor-less, keyboard-less, etc. - jsut sitting there and controling the CNC
[15:49:10] <LeelooMinai> Don't tell me no one uses lunuxcnc like that...
[15:50:10] <jdh> ok, I won't.
[15:50:43] <renesis> thats not a cnc controller thats like a cnc server
[15:51:52] * JT-Shop can't imagine running a CNC machine remotely unless it is on the moon or mars
[15:52:26] <LeelooMinai> It's called networking and was invented long time ago:)
[15:54:19] <LeelooMinai> Amd remotely controlling things is at least century old too
[16:22:05] <renesis> leeloominai: cnc machine crash when you go for coffee
[16:22:18] <renesis> its like how usb are never facing the right way the first try
[16:22:21] <renesis> its just a thing
[16:22:33] <renesis> cnc server is like, permanenent coffee break
[16:23:22] <LeelooMinai> It's my cnc in my room - I am not going to sit by it, waiting to do what it has to do:)
[16:23:39] <renesis> thats what youre supposed to do!
[16:23:43] <renesis> youre a cnc operator!
[16:23:49] <LeelooMinai> I will sit at my computer place and control it.
[16:23:54] <renesis> get a coffee machine and a comfy stool
[16:24:05] <LeelooMinai> No, I am a hobbyist:)
[16:25:03] <taiden> check out page 17 https://www.geckodrive.com/gecko/images/cms_files/Step%20Motor%20Basics%20Guide.pdf
[16:25:10] <renesis> i used to fall asleep while machining aluminum pockets =\
[16:25:24] <renesis> wake up, spindle running, pile of chips underneath
[16:25:30] <taiden> how do these guys figure you select a motor with a holding torque below what your torque requirements are for acceleration & forces required
[16:25:32] <LeelooMinai> Anyways, I got it to work with x11vnc - but with limited resolution - will do for now, and maybe in the future I will find how to fix it.
[16:26:06] <taiden> using their math i started with 120 oz-in design torque and ended up with a 48 oz-in motor at 300 ipm
[16:26:13] <taiden> (i'm using a 20mm ballscrew)
[16:28:05] <taiden> granted my pulses per second are reaaaaly low due to the 20mm ballscrew
[16:29:19] <taiden> but i'm designing for 50 lb cutting forces with a 20mm ballscrew and my design torque keeps coming up 120 oz-in, it seems really low. And then according to gecko I can run my machine at 750 ipm and meet me 50 lb cutting force requirement
[16:30:48] <taiden> and assuming a worse case 70% efficiency under microstepping I still have a torque safety factor of n=1.866
[16:31:08] <taiden> i just cannot believe that a little 320 oz-in stepper motor can really do all that work
[16:35:38] <renesis> 320 oz is like 20lbs, and the screw ups it a bit, shrug
[16:37:23] <taiden> it's true
[16:37:41] <taiden> it looks like i'll be contouring at 1000ipm in a week or so
[16:37:47] <taiden> surface contouring***
[16:37:59] <taiden> to be fair it is a tiny machine
[16:38:17] <taiden> https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/1404802_10202961599860596_6181779933418001917_o.jpg
[16:38:25] <renesis> wowo @ 1000ipm
[16:38:50] <renesis> neat
[16:39:20] <renesis> does table have more Y support?
[16:39:49] <taiden> nope, nsk whitepapers show this to be very rigid. Hopefully it will perform as such
[16:40:22] <taiden> it's a dual carriage NSK MCM08
[16:40:25] <taiden> on the X and Y
[16:40:38] <taiden> with 15.5" throw
[16:42:07] <taiden> the frame is overkill at 2x4x1/8" tubing... but i have it lying around so i might as well use it
[16:45:11] <Deejay> gn8
[17:02:53] <LeelooMinai> http://i.imgur.com/2kyHnky.png <- what are those units? inch, mm, cm, feet? :)
[17:03:28] <PCW> machine units
[17:04:44] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, so I guess mm
[17:05:28] <LeelooMinai> Should be to the right of every field, imho
[17:12:00] <renesis> leeloominai: depends how you drives are scaled
[17:12:19] <renesis> machine doesnt care, just does so many pulses for a unit
[17:12:39] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but GUI knows that, so could display it to the right
[17:13:51] <PCW> file a bug report :-)
[17:13:59] <PCW> or submit a patch
[17:14:11] <LeelooMinai> It's not a bug - just usability issue
[17:14:37] <LeelooMinai> But if I had to file all of those... they would probably ban me:)
[17:16:17] <PCW> I'm sure cmorely. will take reasonable suggestions for pncconf
[17:18:47] <PCW> hmm the velocity units are specified...
[17:19:47] <LeelooMinai> It also generates wrong config for me: "Brutalisk-6i25-7i76.hal:25: Pin 'hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-14-not' does not exist"
[17:19:57] <LeelooMinai> This should not really happen imho, ever
[17:23:20] <LeelooMinai> I can see this: [ 4190.452340] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 014 (P3-11): Encoder #0, pin Index (Input)
[17:23:45] <LeelooMinai> Not sure why I was able to do something invalid in that wizard
[17:25:33] <LeelooMinai> I used pin 14 but that was from TB6: http://i.imgur.com/3Und4St.png
[17:25:38] * LeelooMinai scratches the head
[17:26:54] <PCW> "Brutalisk-6i25-7i76.hal:25: Pin 'hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-14-not"
[17:26:56] <PCW> is probably expected
[17:27:02] <LeelooMinai> ANd this is in the hal "net min-z <= hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.0.input-14-not"
[17:27:40] <LeelooMinai> How is it expected - it's my limit switch:)
[17:28:38] <PCW> its expected sincec the pin wont be there unless the field I/O is on
[17:31:02] <LeelooMinai> I did not see anything about field IO
[17:31:21] <LeelooMinai> In that wizard
[17:31:41] <PCW> not a wizard issue
[17:32:44] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, sot that message is not about the config but actual hardware?
[17:34:02] * LeelooMinai decides to switch filed power on
[17:34:34] <LeelooMinai> Here
[17:40:54] <LeelooMinai> I wonder if lunuxcnc does really have to die in such dramatic way in this situation with a cryptic message instead of just saying that some hardware is not on
[17:44:29] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: it says in the pdf
[17:44:35] <zeeshan> to have field i/o power on
[17:44:42] <zeeshan> or hal wont see the pins
[17:44:44] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but that's silly
[17:44:47] <PCW> it probably could say the hardware is not on, at the expense of a more complicated hal file (dont load I/O section until interface is up)
[17:45:37] <LeelooMinai> I mean linuxcnc created some box that looked like something horrible happened, did not even start, and told me that a pin is missing... How it that helping?
[17:46:06] <PCW> that will happen with any hal file error
[17:46:55] <PCW> it gives the HAL line and the fault. In general what more can it do?
[17:47:00] <LeelooMinai> THat's not good imho - at least if people who are to use this software are not computer science experts:)
[17:47:40] <LeelooMinai> It could start and show which components are offline instead.
[17:48:45] <LeelooMinai> ANd if you connect them, mark as online and look happy.
[17:50:22] <LeelooMinai> I will figure this out eventually, because I am determined, but I bet many people will not.
[17:50:53] <cradek> in normal computer usage, hardware has to be hooked up and on before you start the software that talks to it. you are proposing a very different kind of iterative startup where you can add (and remove?) hardware from the running system.
[17:51:44] <LeelooMinai> cradek: That's not normal in any way. If you have some software that deals with some hardware device and you start it with the device disconnected, it will just wait for you to connect it.
[17:52:13] <LeelooMinai> Also, 5i25 is there...
[17:52:31] <LeelooMinai> ... so it's not exactly as all was disconnected - just external io board.
[17:53:29] <cradek> your expectations seem unrealistic to me - and I can't tell if you're serious about it, or you are just averse to saying "oops I made a silly mistake, I'll fix it and move on"
[17:53:43] <jdh> I know of nothing that waits for hardware to show up with the possible exception of USB and that has its own issues.
[17:53:45] <LeelooMinai> Right, you may not like me for saying those things, but I am just trying to provide some inpu.
[17:53:55] <LeelooMinai> input*
[17:54:07] <cradek> I neither like nor dislike you
[17:54:21] <LeelooMinai> Or you may think that all I say is some whining, but then do not wonder why people will chooe more freidnly software.
[17:55:14] <cradek> well it's true that I think you're whining, somewhat.
[17:55:29] <zeeshan> its pretty clear inthe pdf
[17:55:33] <zeeshan> to turn on field i/o pdf
[17:55:35] <zeeshan> power
[17:55:39] <LeelooMinai> I am just pointing out things I found unintuitive or affecting usability.
[17:55:39] <jdh> I have written a lot of software that talks to required hardware. The only sane option IMO is to abort when said hardware isn't seen.
[17:55:41] <zeeshan> its even bolded
[17:56:13] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/NhXnKsa.png
[17:56:17] <zeeshan> i was measuring tiny dimples today
[17:56:26] <zeeshan> faking thing has measurement errors th ough
[17:56:35] <jdh> measuring with what?
[17:56:41] <LeelooMinai> PDF you say - but a good test of software/GUI is if you can use it without having to consult documentation to avoid all the traps - especially if well-written software could do something about them.
[17:56:42] <zeeshan> aramis 3d
[17:56:59] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ZGgDoQz.png
[17:57:01] <jdh> what is the hardware for measurement?
[17:57:03] <zeeshan> can you even spot the indent?
[17:57:27] <zeeshan> jdh 2 ccd cameras
[17:57:38] <zeeshan> and a "sophisticated" software
[17:57:41] <jdh> not bad for that.
[17:58:04] <zeeshan> i need to bring the cameras closer
[17:58:08] <zeeshan> and get better focus
[17:58:09] <jdh> we have been testing a 'Gocator' for surface defects
[17:58:13] <zeeshan> <- knows shit about cameras
[17:58:16] <jdh> terrible name
[17:58:38] <zeeshan> that looks like an industrial software
[17:59:16] <zeeshan> looks nice
[17:59:31] <zeeshan> im currently using a 50mm lense
[17:59:38] <zeeshan> i wonder if a 20mm will make things better
[18:33:10] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/k5nyede
[18:37:27] <Tom_itx> need a magnetic base?
[18:37:40] <jdh> no, but it looks cool
[18:39:37] <PCW> Chem lab stuff
[18:53:09] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/S9BT19F.png
[18:53:12] <zeeshan> can someone make sense of this chart
[18:53:27] <zeeshan> the right column "aperture dependent depth of field"
[18:53:39] <zeeshan> so for a 20x16 mm measuring volume
[18:53:47] <zeeshan> theyre saying the depth of field is 16mm? :P
[18:53:51] <zeeshan> whats the 0.2 for
[18:55:20] <PCW> 16 is the aperture (NA) .2 is .2 mm depth of field
[18:55:38] <PCW> (when stopped down to F16)
[18:55:46] <zeeshan> aperture is the thing that controls
[18:55:48] <zeeshan> how much light gets in right?
[18:55:54] <zeeshan> and is measured in "f-stops"
[18:56:06] <PCW> yes (and also depth of field)
[18:56:22] <zeeshan> okay so this means if my lighting is terrible at f16
[18:56:28] <zeeshan> i cant simply just open the aperture up more
[18:56:32] <zeeshan> i'll need to increase lighting
[18:56:44] <zeeshan> cause if i try to change aperture, then i lose my depth of field
[18:56:51] <zeeshan> ^ does this logic seem right?
[18:57:05] <PCW> yep (well on the top line)
[18:57:12] * JT-Shop only needs 6' of stove gasket to finish regasketing the stove... it's just going to smoke a bit in the moring
[18:57:20] <JT-Shop> morning
[18:57:30] <PCW> more light!
[18:57:39] * Tom_itx wonders what JT-Shop looks like after working on the stove all day
[18:57:41] <zeeshan> aziz
[18:57:44] <zeeshan> MORE LIGHT!
[18:58:01] <PCW> :-)
[18:58:25] <JT-Shop> had to wait till the fire burned out to work on it... the stuff I bought was hard as a rock so at the last minute I had to run to menards and return that and go with plan b
[19:05:04] <Tom_L> need lunch money?
[19:05:06] <Tom_L> http://www.electronicproducts.com/Computer_Systems/Modules/Intel_owes_you_a_15_check_if_you_purchased_a_Pentium_4_processor_between_2000_and_2002.aspx
[19:09:01] <JT-Shop> don't take much to buy a slice of lettuce and a few radishes and a carrot
[19:09:16] <renesis> tom_l: no one bought pentium 4 between 2000 and 2002
[19:09:18] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[19:09:40] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, in the HAL file, having one signal driving, say, two outputs, can I somehow insert a delay for one of those outputs?
[19:10:09] <LeelooMinai> So one outputs gets on first, then, say, 10ms later, the other one
[19:12:32] <PCW> man timedelay
[19:28:14] <Jymmm> XXCoder: O_o
[19:28:20] <LeelooMinai> "loadrt timedelay [count=N|names=name1[,name2...]]" <- if I use names, say, drivers-enable, then I would use drivers-enable name or timdelay.drivers-enable?
[19:28:34] <Jymmm> XXCoder: nevermind
[19:34:52] <PCW> drivers-enable
[19:35:29] <PCW> (you can look in your pnnconf built hal file for examples)
[19:36:06] <LeelooMinai> It did not really have anything that used names
[19:37:01] <PCW> Hmm the examples I have do
[19:37:46] <LeelooMinai> It generated hal that looks like this at the beginning: http://i.imgur.com/vwrb7tU.png
[19:38:12] <LeelooMinai> Without the timedelay component, which I just added
[19:39:39] <PCW> the exampl i'm looking at has these for example:
[19:39:40] <PCW> loadrt pid names=pid.x,pid.z,pid.s
[19:39:42] <PCW> loadrt mux16 names=jogincr,foincr,mvoincr,soincr
[19:41:17] <LeelooMinai> THe file I am talking about is just a file generated for 5i25 with one 7i76
[19:41:41] <LeelooMinai> Maybe I did not select some options for jog control
[19:42:31] <PCW> yeah a spartan hal file may not have more that a couple added components
[19:43:22] <PCW> but in general it looks like pncconf uses named rather than numbered components
[19:43:47] <LeelooMinai> Can I direct outputs/inputs without using net names?
[19:44:07] <LeelooMinai> Like output => input1 input2
[19:44:15] <LeelooMinai> Or do I have to use net <name>?
[19:44:24] <PCW> no you must use a signal
[19:45:11] <PCW> net <signal> in out in in in ...
[19:45:18] <cpresser> btw, you dont need those arrows. its just a netlist
[19:46:16] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, but then it has to figure their direction by node types, right?
[19:46:41] <PCW> I think there was some talk about anonymous signals but I dont know if they well be added or not
[19:47:13] <PCW> it knows the directions so that's not an issue
[19:47:16] <LeelooMinai> It could be simple to just make them with names glued together or something
[19:47:32] <LeelooMinai> I mean those implicit signal names
[19:48:13] <LeelooMinai> Or just name then singal0, 1, etc.
[19:49:04] <PCW> If I had my druthers
[19:49:05] <PCW> net $ in out in in
[19:49:07] <PCW> would work
[19:49:52] <PCW> (show signals would show $1,$2 etc)
[19:50:24] <LeelooMinai> If $ is not used, seems reasonable
[19:51:01] <PCW> anyway ist not there now so you must suffer
[19:57:34] <PCW> also depends on the coding style
[19:57:35] <PCW> pncconf does this
[19:57:37] <PCW> net machine-asplode In-Bit-88
[19:57:38] <PCW> ...
[19:57:40] <PCW> net machine-asplode => run_hide
[19:57:42] <PCW> where you need a self explanatory name for readability
[19:57:44] <PCW> rather than
[19:57:45] <PCW> net xxx In-Bit-88 run_hide
[19:58:12] <LeelooMinai> Yes, sometimes one way is better
[19:58:57] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, if I want sytax specific for the net command, I should use some man ..., like in the man timedelay example, or do something else?
[20:00:25] <PCW> man for the components (probably after reading the hal and integrator manuals)
[20:00:29] <Computer_Barf> could i theoretically download the linuxCNC 2.6 iso and boot it using virtual box? I just want to play around with the interface to familiarize myself with the program
[21:02:29] <zeeshan> i hated the arrows before
[21:02:36] <zeeshan> cause i had no clue what was going on, but man do they help :D
[21:02:39] <zeeshan> once you get used to em
[22:11:48] <zeeshan> can someone help clarify some confusion about VFDs? when i look at a VFD rated for single phase 3HP , max current input is 27A. but that same model/manufacturer vfd rated for three phase, 3HP has a max current input of 15A. both vfds need a 240VAC input.
[22:12:07] <zeeshan> why is one vfd drawing 6480 W
[22:12:16] <zeeshan> and the other only drawing 3600W?
[22:12:45] <zeeshan> the only thing i can come up with is when you go from single phase to 3 phase
[22:12:54] <zeeshan> you need sqrt(3) more current
[22:13:16] <zeeshan> 3600*sqrt(3) ~= 6230 W which is close to the single phase rating..
[22:15:01] <zeeshan> the next question is, why does a 3HP motor (2240W) require 3600W input on the VFD?
[22:15:09] <zeeshan> where is the extra 1.5 kW going?
[22:16:40] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zb5tMjBeswM heh
[22:19:01] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: why?
[22:19:12] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: what do you mean why
[22:19:49] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: I don't know why. Please tell me.
[22:20:00] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: im asking 2 questions
[22:20:04] <zeeshan> not answering 2 questions :P
[22:20:37] <zeeshan> honestly the only thing i can come up with for the 1.5kW power consumption
[22:20:46] <zeeshan> is they're accounting for startup currents
[22:20:47] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: oh, I thought it was a question joke.
[22:21:03] <zeeshan> and maybe a couple hundred watts get wasted in the electronics
[22:21:09] <CaptHindsight> like why did the chicken cross the road sorta thing
[22:21:11] <zeeshan> like voltage regulators and stuff
[22:21:21] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: no both are serious questions
[22:21:31] <zeeshan> my answers are just speculation or a guess
[22:22:24] <zeeshan> honestly, whenever i've used 3 phase vfds inthe past
[22:22:29] <CaptHindsight> question #1 might be power loss due to inefficiency of the VFD. I really don't know. Who said that it does?
[22:22:34] <zeeshan> i've taken the 3 phase current rating
[22:22:43] <zeeshan> and multiplied it by 1.73 (sqrt 3)
[22:23:01] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: the manufacturer's spec sheet does
[22:24:36] <CaptHindsight> I'd have to take some guesses at how they designed them.
[22:25:22] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/xFf1jGc.png
[22:25:25] <zeeshan> specs right from the manual
[22:25:35] <zeeshan> i guess i could email my boss
[22:25:37] <zeeshan> who designs these
[22:25:38] <zeeshan> lol
[22:25:46] <zeeshan> i havent talked to him in a long time though :/
[22:25:50] <zeeshan> would be so odd just msging him randomly
[22:25:57] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: whats your guesses?
[22:26:19] <zeeshan> if you do 15*sqrt(3)
[22:26:20] <zeeshan> you get 26A
[22:26:30] <zeeshan> which is pretty damn close to the 1 phase number
[22:26:44] <zeeshan> maybe 1A gets lost due to inefficiency of single phase
[22:27:10] <CaptHindsight> first I'd like to slap the person that created that table
[22:27:54] <zeeshan> why
[22:28:32] <CaptHindsight> do you have the whole spec sheet or just that table?
[22:28:39] <zeeshan> i have it all
[22:28:39] <zeeshan> :P
[22:29:16] <CaptHindsight> I've been looking at docs all day written by people with expressive writing disorders
[22:29:25] <zeeshan> rofl
[22:31:38] <CaptHindsight> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=168479
[22:31:54] <zeeshan> i has
[22:32:18] <CaptHindsight> page #3 lists Heat Loss Data
[22:32:45] <zeeshan> here is more proof between difference
[22:32:55] <zeeshan> of single phase and 3 phase by another manufacturer
[22:33:11] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/VBedaAN.png
[22:33:42] <zeeshan> 12.5*sqrt(3) = 22A
[22:33:50] <zeeshan> almost close to the 24A
[22:34:05] <CaptHindsight> your chart isn't in the manual I found
[22:34:30] <zeeshan> ch 3
[22:34:34] <zeeshan> page 26
[22:34:43] <zeeshan> page 3-7 on the actual manual
[22:34:49] <zeeshan> what page on the manual is the heat loss data?
[22:34:56] <CaptHindsight> ah my doc only goes to page #20
[22:34:59] <zeeshan> table 4-3?
[22:35:08] <zeeshan> MVX001A0-2 (3 phase) 38
[22:35:09] <zeeshan> W
[22:35:11] <zeeshan> for example
[22:35:41] <zeeshan> this is why when i remember having this conversation in her before
[22:36:08] <zeeshan> about how someone was telling me "its a 5 hp motor aka 3730W consumption"
[22:36:29] <zeeshan> "it will draw 15A at 240V"
[22:36:34] <zeeshan> was a whole lot of crap for a 3 phase motor :P
[22:37:10] <CaptHindsight> https://www.galco.com/techdoc/chgp/mvx9000_um.pdf this version has 144 pages
[22:37:27] <zeeshan> yea the one im looking at has 144 pages
[22:37:37] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: honestly its not about the manufacturer
[22:37:43] <zeeshan> its consistent w/ different manufacturers
[22:38:06] <zeeshan> the single phase input current for a specific hp drive is at least 1.732* the 3 phase same hp rating on the input
[22:38:18] <CaptHindsight> Wiring Table
[22:38:22] <zeeshan> i remember when you used a 3 phase circuit
[22:38:28] <zeeshan> and you tried to extract single phase out of it
[22:38:45] <zeeshan> you had sqrt(3) * I_line_to_line
[22:38:56] <zeeshan> i forgot the math behind it (we were using phasors)
[22:41:12] <CaptHindsight> I was trying to see what the inputs were
[22:42:44] <CaptHindsight> so you;re wonder what the math is behind why there's almost 2x more current when there s a single phase vs 3 phase
[22:43:02] <CaptHindsight> sorry can't type anymore :p
[22:43:56] <zeeshan> yea i guess summary of my questions are: is sqrt(3) * I_3phase the reason for current diff between single phase and three phase (going back to poly circuit math)
[22:44:08] <zeeshan> and why a 3hp motor @ 2300 w consumes 3600W on the input side of the vfd
[22:44:30] <zeeshan> are vfds really the ineffienct that they waste approx 1.5kW through losses (heat etc)
[22:45:16] <CaptHindsight> no heat loss was a few 100 max W
[22:45:27] <zeeshan> fair enough
[22:45:43] <CaptHindsight> see page A-1 (114)
[22:45:51] <zeeshan> i dont see the control side consuming more than 50W at most!
[22:46:28] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: dont you hate it when pdfs give you a specific number
[22:46:33] <zeeshan> and the manual page number doesnt match? :D
[22:46:34] <zeeshan> haha
[22:46:39] <zeeshan> that crap happens in car manuals all the time
[22:47:10] <CaptHindsight> well they number the doc however but the PDF reader starts the first page with 1
[22:47:34] <CaptHindsight> lets start numbering the pages at page 7
[22:47:38] <CaptHindsight> thanks
[22:47:43] <zeeshan> :D
[22:48:32] <zeeshan> i doint see much on loss on that page
[22:48:36] <pcw_home> the IGBTs may have 100W or more conduction and switching losses at full load
[22:49:03] <zeeshan> pcw_home: can they go as high as 1kW?
[22:49:07] <CaptHindsight> for a 3HP motor Input Rating (to the VFD) 1 phase/3 phase Rated Input Current 27/15
[22:49:08] <pcw_home> no
[22:49:18] <zeeshan> yea CaptHindsight thats the big one :P
[22:50:03] <pcw_home> a single phase input will have a poor power factor
[22:50:14] <zeeshan> 3hp => 2240W / 240VAC = 9.32A != 15A
[22:50:32] <zeeshan> even with overload of 150%
[22:50:37] <pcw_home> so will have a higher VA
[22:50:45] <zeeshan> we're at 14A
[22:50:49] <zeeshan> getting close :P
[22:52:39] <CaptHindsight> 9 x 1.73 = 15.6
[22:53:01] <renesis> oh man he said igbt <3
[22:53:11] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: that wouldnt make sense :P
[22:54:10] <pcw_home> watts are watts 3 phase is not relevant unless you are measuring per leg motor currents
[22:54:38] <zeeshan> pcw_home: then plz explain the 27 vs 15A difference
[22:55:04] <pcw_home> overload and power factor
[22:55:52] <CaptHindsight> I'm still not sure what the question is :)
[22:56:15] <pcw_home> its possible to have 100A at 100V AC and only 100W power
[22:57:17] <zeeshan> P = VI cos phi
[22:57:20] <pcw_home> you cannot multiply V*A to get Watts with AC
[22:57:36] <zeeshan> so pf is 1/100..
[22:57:54] <CaptHindsight> http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/Power_Factor.htm
[22:58:13] <zeeshan> that seems very low!
[22:58:19] <pcw_home> a single phase fed VFD will have a poor power factor
[22:58:49] <zeeshan> okay so single phase is then 0.56~ pf
[22:58:53] <zeeshan> assuming 3 phase is 1.
[23:00:13] <zeeshan> thank u PCw
[23:00:17] <zeeshan> expert :D
[23:00:56] <CaptHindsight> http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/power-factor-calculator.htm
[23:01:15] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: thank you too :P
[23:01:18] <Valen> you probably could get a better PF through a vfd
[23:01:22] <Valen> but it'd cost more
[23:01:32] <zeeshan> pf correction
[23:06:26] <pcw_home> Yeah some power supplies do this with a pre-regulator that keeps the current in phase with the voltage
[23:06:52] <zeeshan> we used to sell power factor correction
[23:07:19] <zeeshan> equipment.. to hospitals and for industrial applications
[23:07:34] <zeeshan> i never knew that with 3 phase, the companies get owned for not having pf correction
[23:07:57] <zeeshan> their bill will be like 300,000$/mo, with 15-35% of the cost being pf penalties