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[01:18:36] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[01:18:49] <kb8wmc> good morning sir
[01:19:18] <Loetmichel> *yaaaaawn*
[01:19:27] * Loetmichel geht mal in die Küche, stellt die Tasse unter die Saeco. *Knöbbscher drügg* *RUUUIIIIIIIII* *KlackKlack* *KlackKlack* *Miiiieeerrrrk* *Brrrrrrr* *Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr* *Miiiiiiiifubb* ... Karamelsirup rein, Milch hinterher... *nipp* "aahh, guuuuut!"
[01:19:34] <Loetmichel> oh, wrong language...
[01:19:37] <kb8wmc> yes, I concur
[01:19:40] <kb8wmc> lol
[01:19:49] <Loetmichel> <- is drinking kis morning coffee.
[01:20:03] <Loetmichel> -k+h
[01:20:22] <kb8wmc> I was just about to turn in to bed
[01:20:48] <kb8wmc> hey, maybe you know is psha's link is not working
[01:21:29] <kb8wmc> I have tried for 2 days now to d/l camview-emc, but no go
[01:21:55] <Loetmichel> its 08:00 am over here... i should be at the company NOW... luckily i am the production manager and the only one who could cehw me out for being late is the boss... which is usually late as well ;-)
[01:22:00] <Loetmichel> chew
[01:22:21] <kb8wmc> good position to be in then
[02:13:34] <Deejay> moin
[02:43:11] <cmorley> kb8wmc; ask on the dev channel - i think someone mirrored Psha's camview - can't remember who
[02:45:13] <archivist> might have been CaptHindsight
[02:45:52] <cathode> random poll: how many folks here keep an inventory on-hand of hardware/fasteners, parts, motors, or anything else?
[02:46:10] <cathode> stuff that isn't being stored specifically for one project, that is
[02:46:21] <archivist> I do for the parts I sell and my archive
[02:46:38] <cathode> ah, what do you sell?
[02:48:13] <archivist> a bit of new old stock, was a crude sight set up years ago and not brought up to date just sells clock modules mainly
[02:48:41] <archivist> http://www.part-number.co.uk/ never made the ordering live
[02:50:01] <cathode> ah
[02:50:09] <cathode> ok.
[02:50:26] <cathode> how do you organize your parts? plastic bins or tubs on shelves? something else?
[02:50:27] <archivist> my archive is a bit more loved so that has an internal map to locations
http://www.collection.archivist.info/shelfview.php?src=artitle&locid=205
[02:50:59] <archivist> in boxes numbered
[02:51:07] <archivist> or on shelves
[02:51:34] <archivist> then there is in a box on a shelf in a room in a building :)
[02:51:58] <cathode> ok
[02:52:05] <archivist> items in the archive are now barcoded
[02:52:56] <cathode> right now i'm using containers like this.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88948814/Shop/2014-05-04%2007.26.52.jpg
[02:54:14] <archivist> I have some like that for bolts etc, some draws for taps/dies
[02:56:44] <Jymmm> Heh, these are my "hardware" containers...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41r2QJQfxPL.jpg
[02:56:46] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_03_30_tools/IMG_1760.JPG
[02:57:23] <Jymmm> about 30 of them =)
[02:57:35] <archivist> coffee jars are now shelf supports and no longer containers :)
[02:57:51] <Jymmm> archivist: lol
[02:59:02] <archivist> 32 at the moment :)
[03:00:12] <Jymmm> The cashew jars hold 2.5 LBS, but are great for things like drywall screws as you can reach your hand in and grab what you want. Now starting to use PB Jars as they take up less room
[03:01:09] <archivist> whatever scheme you use, it will not fit all sizes of stock
[03:02:06] <Jymmm> True, but it's better now than it's been in decdes, at least now I know where things are =)
[03:02:36] <Jymmm> Still have to find the correct damn jar, but I at least know it's in one of em =)
[03:03:09] <archivist> then the sellers change the jar shape
[03:03:53] <Jymmm> Actually they did (bastards), from round to square
[03:04:14] <Jymmm> and no longer stack as well.
[03:05:26] <cathode> hmm
[03:06:17] <cathode> archivist's organizer thing looks more user-friendly
[03:06:55] <cathode> also right now it's just me working on projects but if i had a friend helping me or working on his own thing for example, it would be beneficial to have things organized well
[03:07:02] <WalterN> cathode:
http://www.uline.com/product/AdvSearchResult.aspx?keywords=uline_plastic_bins
[03:07:43] <WalterN> cathode: u-line is a large company that sells boxes and stuff in your area
[03:07:50] <Jymmm> WalterN HA!, maybe on YOUR creidt card, thos bins are expensive
[03:07:56] <cathode> yeah... these look good:
http://www.uline.com/BL_8821/Divider-Boxes?keywords=uline_plastic_bins
[03:08:12] <archivist> open top boxes fail a bit in dusty environments
[03:08:30] <WalterN> Jymmm: I havent priced their plastic stuff, I buy cardboard boxes from them all the time though
[03:08:32] <Jymmm> Yep, and tip over and stuff goes EVERYWHERE
[03:09:26] <cathode> i'm kind of a fan of a unit with a bunch of pull-out divided drawers
[03:09:31] <cathode> because that's something i can make myself
[03:09:49] <cathode> i'd probably put some felt around the drawer faces to seal out dust
[03:10:01] <cathode> because archivist is right, dust gets everywhere
[03:10:08] <archivist> discount stores sometimes have the sets of draws
[03:10:21] <archivist> moths get in the draws!
[03:10:29] <cathode> eh
[03:11:55] <cathode> hmmm anyway, time for bed. gnight :)
[03:12:14] <Jymmm> top of lids are always filthy with dust, but contents are always clean
http://i53.tinypic.com/212wxtt.jpg
[03:13:24] <Jymmm> 16 quart containers
[03:13:38] <archivist> I would never pay this price
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48-DRAWER-ELECTRONIC-COMPONENT-PARTS-ORGANISER-STEEL-CABINET-STORAGE-DRAW-CASE-/131193947654
[03:14:33] <WalterN> ^thats the kind of thing I would want
[03:14:45] <Jymmm> http://i29.tinypic.com/17daon.jpg
[03:14:47] <WalterN> except made out of wood or steel :P
[03:14:53] <archivist> it is not £500 pounds worth though
[03:15:08] <WalterN> oh wait it is steel
[03:15:10] <Jymmm> archivist: Not even 20 either
[03:15:14] * WalterN shrugs
[03:15:58] <archivist> draper and raaco are cheaper makers
[03:16:32] <Jymmm> Those are my drawers, and I just get containers from the dollar store for things like crimp ons, and other parts
[03:16:49] <SpeedEvil> My storage system is two million five hundred thousand tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night.
[08:29:33] <MrHindsight> archivist: delrin gear
http://ibin.co/1gJSVjh1F2XL are you setup to cut these?
[08:30:44] <archivist> need the right hob and they are expensive to get made
[08:31:50] <MrHindsight> I think that gear is $400-700ea
[08:32:21] <ssi> what's it for?
[08:32:26] <archivist> ouch, how many :)
[08:32:39] <MrHindsight> 1-4 quantity
[08:32:45] <archivist> accuracy needed ?
[08:33:47] <MrHindsight> don't know what exactly it goes into, probably a worm
[08:34:09] <MrHindsight> +/- 0.002"
[08:34:26] <archivist> with the throat it does look a normal wormwheel
[08:36:13] <archivist> the problem is people dont stock worm cutters at a sensible price
[08:36:54] <MrHindsight> same for delrin worm gears :)
[08:37:41] <archivist> hmm I was about to go out to see a customer, let me think on it
[08:38:13] <MrHindsight> don't spin your wheels
[08:38:46] <archivist> you could get away with standard helicals possibly
[08:39:16] <MrHindsight> I might just print them
[08:40:00] <MrHindsight> with an epoxy composite
[08:41:17] <archivist> I did abuse one machine when making a brass one but I made the matching worm so had control of the pcd
http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_Gear_cutting_examples/p1010057.jpg
[08:42:04] <archivist> technically the radius is a bit large because of the hob I used
[08:44:42] <archivist> I dont see how a clue gun is going to make it within .002 without some "running in"
[08:45:12] <MrHindsight> SLA using a photopolymer composite
[08:45:31] <MrHindsight> no glue guns
[08:46:42] <archivist> also the material is probably unsuited to use as a gear
[08:48:29] <ssi> even glue gun printed gears do surprisingly well
[08:50:20] <MrHindsight> I can blend resins with higher tensile and flex mod than delrin, but delrin has far more elongation at break
[08:51:09] <MrHindsight> but if the teeth are already stretching you have other problems
[08:54:05] <MrHindsight> you can glue gun delrin
[08:54:20] <MrHindsight> but the res is poor
[08:55:47] <MrHindsight> bbl
[09:27:02] <Loetmichel> reprapping POM is difficult because the melting opoinjt and the decomposition point are only 20° apart
[09:27:37] <Loetmichel> -o-j
[09:30:40] <CaptHindsight> Polyoxymethylene (POM)?
[09:30:58] <CaptHindsight> yeah, you don't use a toy printer
[09:42:28] <CaptHindsight> the Dupont Delrins melt ~215C,
http://plastics.dupont.com/plastics/pdflit/europe/delrin/delrin-mouldtip-melt.pdf
[10:03:05] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: the absolute temperatures atre not necessarily the problem
[10:03:23] <Loetmichel> the small margin for error untiol it decomposes is
[10:03:30] <Loetmichel> because decomposing POM is NASTY
[10:22:08] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: yes, I understood that the first time you mentioned it :)
[10:52:00] <kb8wmc> CaptHindsight: do you know if psha's link for camview-emc has been mirrored and if so where?
[10:52:38] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: I have a copy of it
[10:52:58] <CaptHindsight> what files do you need? I'm just about to walk out the door....
[10:53:43] <kb8wmc> thanks Capt.....camview-emc and all others associated with building cam application
[10:53:44] <jdh> panel mounting plates... painted white, or galvanized?
[10:54:23] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: it's not straightforward to install
[10:54:59] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: he has packages for older distros but even they need work to get all the features working
[10:54:59] <kb8wmc> yes, I have installed it on another machine previously
[10:55:12] <CaptHindsight> I'll be back in 2-3 hours
[10:55:16] <kb8wmc> rgr that
[11:04:36] <zeeshan|2> jdh: painted white! :P
[11:05:03] <ssi> I dropped my plasma table off at the powder coater this morning
[11:05:16] <zeeshan|2> its good still?
[11:05:16] <zeeshan|2> :D
[11:05:20] <zeeshan|2> er
[11:05:23] <zeeshan|2> nm i was thinking laser
[11:05:29] <jdh> z: yeah... their electrical guy wants galvanized for 'better grounding'
[11:05:43] <zeeshan|2> what is he going to do
[11:05:45] <zeeshan|2> ground shit everywhere?
[11:05:55] <zeeshan|2> ask him why a breaker box is painted asa 49
[11:06:00] <zeeshan|2> or 41 i forget the nubmer
[11:07:01] <jdh> for the same reason I want white. The galvanized ones are ugly
[11:07:18] <zeeshan|2> is it a control mounting plate?
[11:07:25] <zeeshan|2> or power distribution
[11:07:27] <zeeshan|2> or what? :P
[11:07:29] <jdh> controls
[11:07:42] <jdh> plcs, drives, fuses, etc
[11:07:43] <ssi> tell him he can spin polish any grounding points
[11:08:02] <zeeshan|2> to be honest with you i've seen both for control applications
[11:08:11] <zeeshan|2> we just sent galv stuff through punches
[11:08:13] <zeeshan|2> rather than the laser cutter
[11:08:19] <jdh> they already ordered galvanized.
[11:08:29] <Rab> Neat!
http://www.intercoastalpaint.com/sg_userfiles/IPC_Color_Card.jpg
[11:08:29] <zeeshan|2> tell him to weld it
[11:08:46] <zeeshan|2> wut rab
[11:08:56] <Rab> Wonder how to find 'Rockwell Delta Gray'.
[11:09:10] <Rab> ASA 49 BTW.
[11:09:16] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[11:09:26] <jdh> I told him I wanted white for any that would be seen from normal positions while opened.
[11:12:55] <Rab> Is zinc coating any better for grounding than paint? It works by oxidizing.
[11:13:20] <zeeshan|2> Rab: paint isn't really conductive
[11:13:22] <Rab> I think you have to cut through it (star washer, etc) to make a reliable connection.
[11:13:41] <zeeshan|2> when i did body work on the car you'd paint the bare metal layer with zinc coated paint
[11:13:49] <zeeshan|2> because you can still weld through it
[11:14:09] <ssi> makes you sick tho
[11:14:10] <ssi> :P
[11:14:22] <Rab> The point is that if you have to penetrate the coating to be sure of your connection, you might as well use the coating you want.
[11:14:23] <zeeshan|2> yea that stuff is like aids
[11:16:33] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1xfFoCIIAAoveT.jpg:large
[11:16:34] <ssi> it's starting
[11:17:05] <zeeshan|2> looking good :D
[11:17:40] <zeeshan|2> http://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/enclosures-102/exm-enclosures-nema-4-12-159/single-door-wall-mount-225/nema-4-12-single-door-wall-mount-3320.html
[11:17:43] <zeeshan|2> is this expensive
[11:35:41] <ssi> too quiet!
[11:37:25] <zeeshan|2> not moving anything today?
[11:38:50] <jdh> expensive for personal use.
[11:39:00] <zeeshan|2> jdh yea man..
[11:39:08] <zeeshan|2> im looking for another enclosure to hold my breakers
[11:39:10] <zeeshan|2> and computer stuff
[11:39:23] <zeeshan|2> id like it to be 24x24x8
[11:39:32] <zeeshan|2> so i can bolt it to this 24x24x8 that i have
[11:39:43] <zeeshan|2> but i want to buy one under 100 bux :/
[11:40:00] <jdh> that's pretty big even for an ebay enclosure for $100
[11:40:21] <zeeshan|2> man im kinda kicking myself
[11:40:28] <zeeshan|2> i did some work for a guy back who said he had a bunch of enclosures
[11:40:33] <zeeshan|2> and he gave me the 24x24x8 that i have
[11:40:39] <zeeshan|2> i lost his number
[11:40:54] <jdh> my daughter turned down the eaton job
[11:41:11] <zeeshan|2> why
[11:41:18] <jdh> (and bosch, bosch, fujifilm, volvo)
[11:42:37] <jdh> didn't sound interesting. looks like she is going with Danaher
[11:43:24] <zeeshan|2> fancy
[11:43:29] <zeeshan|2> they own tektronix and fluke
[11:43:29] <zeeshan|2> :D
[11:49:53] <jdh> and free housing for co-ops
[12:31:28] <ssi> cleaning up all my cat40 tooling :/
[13:53:01] <Connor> Okay... So, with the talk about servo's and steppers etc past few days.. I have questions.
[13:54:15] <Connor> They now have these closed loop stepper systems.. that take the encoder back to the driver. You watch videos of them perform and they're much smoother.. quieter.. and simply don't stall like a normal stepper.
[13:54:44] <Connor> My question is, using those in a Linuxcnc application vs taking the encoder direct to linuxcnc and running the stepper in velocity mode.
[13:56:05] <Connor> Benefits, drawbacks, and does anyone have a sample config of using a stepper with encoder in linuxcnc (using 7i76 and something like the 7i85
[13:59:36] <renesis> 23:36:41 < Connor> They now have these closed loop stepper systems.. that take the encoder back to the driver. You watch videos of them perform and they're much smoother.. quieter.. and simply don't stall like a normal stepper.
[13:59:40] <renesis> link to video
[14:00:01] <renesis> 'doesnt stall like a normal stepper' means it slowed down
[14:00:16] <renesis> smooth and quiet is just microstepping
[14:00:48] <renesis> diff from full step to even half step on my machine is noticable, nema23 motors
[14:01:12] <Connor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SozZ7af3wg
[14:01:16] <PCW> if you feed a normal stepmotors encoder data back to linuxcnc, that is not the same as a closed loop step drive (which is a true servo)
[14:01:22] <renesis> so yeah, if its closed loop from the stepper encoder to the driver, but not the control system, i dont see how its very helpful
[14:02:04] <renesis> yeah but im saying the a closed loop step drive cant do shit except slow down the motor drive speed, which creates positional errors because the controller doesnt know
[14:02:09] <renesis> or it can send a stop flag
[14:02:13] <renesis> killing the cycle
[14:02:31] <Connor> and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7BUTQoN0A&feature=em-share_video_user
[14:02:45] <renesis> with feedback back to the controller, the controller can reduce feed rate, affecting the drive speed of all the motors, eliminating positional error at the cost of cycle time and maybe tool life
[14:03:27] <renesis> the audio on this is hard panned?
[14:03:49] <Connor> the controller in this case is linuxcnc.. my understanding is.. after some many follow errors.. it'll fail out.
[14:04:16] <renesis> as it should
[14:04:36] <renesis> your step drive with feedback should even allow 'many follow errors'
[14:04:45] <Connor> but.. does linuxcnc drop the feed rate across the board to give the stepper a chance to not stall ?
[14:04:47] <renesis> it should just stop the cycle when it sees any follow errors
[14:05:05] <renesis> i dunno, but the point is you can do it in the controller
[14:05:16] <renesis> if i bitch in here enough, it maybe happens
[14:05:23] <renesis> pretty sure how thats how unhoming happened
[14:06:03] <renesis> you cant do it in the step driver that doesnt give its encoder signal to the controller
[14:06:05] <Connor> I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth doing closed loop to the driver, or closed loop to the controller.. (or both using a splitter)
[14:06:14] <renesis> they just said it in their fucked up left panned audio video
[14:06:24] <Connor> and.. at what point does it become more practical to switch to a servo.
[14:06:25] <renesis> all it can do is send a fault flag when they detect a stall
[14:06:31] <renesis> so right, its safer
[14:06:39] <renesis> but its not any sort of performance benefit
[14:07:23] <PCW> the closed loop step drives _are_ servos
[14:07:43] <renesis> yeah but they suck compared to normal servos
[14:07:58] <renesis> normal servos dont slow down in response to position errors
[14:08:08] <Connor> PCW OKay.. But.. they're just closed loop to the driver, not to linuxcnc.
[14:08:12] <PCW> sure they do
[14:08:13] <renesis> normal servos lag down, you add more power, they catch up
[14:08:37] <PCW> same with close loop step drives, the are true servos
[14:08:41] <renesis> normal servos speed up
[14:08:47] <PCW> same
[14:08:56] <renesis> dude, closed loop stepper has a positional error, it prob skipped steps
[14:09:04] <renesis> so its behind, prob because trying to go to fast for the load
[14:09:07] <PCW> nope it cant skip steps
[14:09:15] <renesis> trying to drive it harder to catch up will make more skips
[14:09:21] <PCW> nope
[14:09:24] <renesis> how can it not skip steps
[14:09:26] <renesis> its magical?
[14:09:34] <renesis> its a special stepper with dc boost?
[14:09:52] <PCW> No its a 50 pole 2 phase AC servo
[14:10:07] <renesis> with a diff torque curve
[14:10:18] <renesis> and its not neccessarily 50 poles but whatever
[14:10:36] <PCW> 50 or 100 most commonly
[14:10:41] <renesis> so look, what does the driver do when the stepper drops steps
[14:10:44] <renesis> to catch up
[14:11:12] <PCW> it cannot lose steps in the same way a normal step drive can
[14:11:24] <renesis> why not
[14:11:36] <renesis> drive a stepper to hard and it drops steps
[14:11:52] <renesis> thats kind of what makes it a stepper
[14:12:00] <PCW> because the phase angle of the drive current is always synchronized with the rotor like a AC servo
[14:12:18] <PCW> that is the key difference
[14:12:26] <renesis> right so if it didnt have enough power to keep up with the cycle
[14:12:26] <Connor> PCW: OKay, so, without the feedback into the driver, it's really just stepper with fault detection.. if you use the driver with encoder feedback, it turns it into a servo.. One that you don't need tune the PID loop too.
[14:12:32] <renesis> and it needs to go faster to catch up
[14:12:35] <renesis> what does it do
[14:12:43] <PCW> it catches up
[14:12:44] <renesis> and why did it slow down in the first place
[14:12:59] <renesis> but the reason it is behind is prob because it was going to hard
[14:13:04] <PCW> because you exceeded its stall torque (same as a normal servo)
[14:13:17] <renesis> steppers dont just randomly drop steps, ive never had it happen unless under load going too fast
[14:13:23] <Connor> Is there any benefit to splitting the encoder signal and sending it to linuxcnc in that style ?
[14:13:48] <PCW> maybe if checking for stalls
[14:14:09] <Connor> The driver can be configured to send back a signal if it stalls.
[14:14:13] <renesis> yeah i think the disconnect is youre like, it just catches up
[14:14:28] <renesis> i kind of think if its not caught up, it dropped steps because of loads
[14:14:38] <renesis> and trying to catch up would mean driving it at a high speed
[14:14:43] <renesis> which is lower torque in a stepper
[14:14:49] <renesis> which will cause more step drops
[14:14:58] <PCW> there are no steps in the same sense
[14:14:58] <renesis> which will have it even further behind
[14:15:15] <renesis> so it needs to catch up more, so go faster, so less torque
[14:15:18] <renesis> so more steps dropped
[14:15:22] <renesis> dude its a stepper
[14:15:28] <PCW> there are no steps
[14:15:29] <renesis> chopped or not, it has steps
[14:15:34] <renesis> yes dude there are steps
[14:15:42] <renesis> my shit microsteps, and there are steps
[14:15:56] <PCW> Nope there is only phase angle and current
[14:16:28] <renesis> i dont see why you cant express driving a stepper normally like that
[14:16:31] <Connor> renesis: I think what he's saying is.. the driver drives the stepper differently.. using a different technique that isn't like a stepper.. it doesn't "step" it's kinda like infinite micro stepping or something.
[14:16:38] <renesis> it doesnt change the toruq profile
[14:16:47] <Connor> renesis: Yes. It does.
[14:17:05] <renesis> not unless it changes the physical properties of the magnetics
[14:17:06] <Connor> which is why these are becoming so popular.
[14:17:29] <renesis> you your poorly produced video said it can send faults when it detects a stall
[14:17:33] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: what files do you need?
[14:17:40] <renesis> *dude youre
[14:17:41] <PCW> Thats true in the sense that the torque drop off with speed will be the same (that physics)
[14:17:42] <renesis> odd type
[14:17:49] <renesis> 00:00:07 < PCW> Thats true in the sense that the torque drop off with speed will be the same (that physics)
[14:18:01] <renesis> dude thats my whole point, so if you agree on that, youre agreeing with me
[14:18:37] <Rab> I saw that video a while back...I think maybe they monitor back-emf from the coils.
[14:18:44] <renesis> youre not going to change the inductance of the coils
[14:18:45] <PCW> No you mis-understand that close loop step drives are true servos, =
[14:19:00] <renesis> and the amount of time you have you have to put current into the coils when theyre moving
[14:19:11] <renesis> which is related to the drive voltage
[14:19:22] <renesis> so if these things have huge rails and transconductance amps, then sure
[14:19:25] <Rab> And have extra fancy electronics to adaptively adjust the drive.
[14:19:31] <renesis> but a normal step driver would perform the same
[14:20:09] <renesis> given the same voltage rails, the same pulse train, feedback isnt going to make the stepper faster somehow when it starts fucking up
[14:20:19] <renesis> im sure theyre very nice drives but i highly doubt theyre magic
[14:20:22] <PCW> Nope heres the thing , a normal stepdrive applies full current all the time, a close loop step drive only applies whats needed (since its a servo)
[14:20:43] <renesis> okay
[14:20:47] <renesis> so youre saying its greener
[14:21:10] <renesis> or maybe deals with slew rate problems by not being all the way at the opposite rails
[14:21:24] <Connor> depending on what your doing.. it's the difference between slamming into a brick wall.. or slowly pushing through it..
[14:21:30] <renesis> so it can have less torque at times versus a normal step motor drive
[14:21:48] <renesis> connor: that sounds like a microstepping drive to me
[14:21:50] <PCW> and doesnt stall like a step drive, it stalls like a servo
[14:22:21] <renesis> again, not sure how its max torque will be any diff
[14:22:37] <renesis> given the same rails, and the same chopper scheme
[14:22:44] <PCW> so if you set the ferror wide enough you can force the shaft 10 turns out of position and ist will zip back when you let it go
[14:22:58] <renesis> so what
[14:23:07] <PCW> because it _is_ a servo
[14:23:12] <renesis> it cant do that at speed under load
[14:23:20] <renesis> if its already fucking up
[14:23:39] <PCW> sure it can its no different than any other servo
[14:23:46] <renesis> sure it a servo but it doesnt have the same torque profile as something with huge magnets handing off 2 or 3 times per rev
[14:24:11] <renesis> its a timing and inductance issue, you fix it with current feedback and pwm with massive voltage overhead
[14:24:37] <renesis> normal step driving, if a servo setup can back off on torque, thats neat, but its not going to increase max torque and thus max speed
[14:24:39] <PCW> sure 50 poles means its for lower speeds and high torques
[14:24:55] <renesis> and lower torque at higher speeds
[14:25:08] <renesis> not like brushless motors are any diff
[14:25:29] <renesis> theyre usually not just run in a way where you will get them to lose enough torque to stall
[14:25:45] <PCW> exactly, it jus a high pole count brushless servo
[14:26:45] <Connor> PCW What does linuxcnc do on follow error?
[14:27:12] <PCW> shuts down
[14:27:29] <Connor> What if it's below the ferror limit ?
[14:27:40] <skunkworks> does nothing?
[14:27:51] <Connor> Does it simply adjust the PID to compensate
[14:27:54] <Connor> ?
[14:28:23] <PCW> nothing happens until you exceed the ferror bounds
[14:28:30] <renesis> if i was running closed loop steppers, and linuxcnc cant reduce feed rate on follow error, i would bitch in here until the option appeared
[14:28:42] <PetefromTn_> I don't think anyone here is trying to suggest that simply adding the encoder and servo style drive makes the stepper more torquey or powerful.
[14:28:49] <renesis> because it seems straightforward and effective
[14:29:05] <renesis> well, except connor and pcw
[14:29:23] <PCW> close loop stepper are simply small servos that use step motors and require no different handling
[14:29:25] <PetefromTn_> no from what I am reading they never did unless I am also missing something
[14:29:38] <Connor> Okay. At THIS point, I'm just trying to figure out the benefit of full closed loop to linuxcnc vs closed loop to the driver..
[14:30:07] <renesis> 23:59:04 < renesis> it doesnt change the toruq profile
[14:30:07] <Connor> and simply slapping a encoder onto a stepper and feeding that to linuxcnc isn't the same as these hybrid stepper servo's
[14:30:09] <renesis> 23:59:13 < Connor> renesis: Yes. It does.
[14:30:38] <PetefromTn_> it sounds like from what Pete is saying the drives have more capability to maintain position and avoid stalling then just an encoder into linuxCNC
[14:30:40] <Connor> renesis: It changes it in the fact that it it doesn't apply full current all the time like a stepper
[14:30:55] <Connor> Need to grab lunch. back in a bit.
[14:30:57] <skunkworks> mainly adding a encoder to the stepper can take into account following error and missed steps...
[14:30:58] <PetefromTn_> yes but it cannot increase the torque or power above what it is rated at.
[14:31:01] <renesis> so it reduces low speed torque?
[14:31:20] <renesis> sounds green
[14:32:09] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SozZ7af3wg
[14:32:28] <PetefromTn_> This video kinda shows how they work differently on basically the same motor
[14:32:35] <renesis> what does standard driver/controller mean
[14:32:39] <renesis> full step?
[14:32:49] <PetefromTn_> basic open loop stepper as I gather it.
[14:32:58] <renesis> yeah but driven how
[14:33:16] <renesis> because what they did sounds like when i change my xylotex jumpers from full step to microstep
[14:33:35] <renesis> huge changes in sound and torque
[14:33:50] <PetefromTn_> From what little I understand of it the closed loop and open loop drivers still have microstepping options
[14:34:45] <renesis> Both stepper motors are receiving equal current and being run at approximately the same speed. The motor on the left is running like a stepper while the motor on the right behaves like a BLDC.
[14:34:51] <renesis> honestly it all sounds like marketing
[14:35:14] <renesis> because the first thing i want to know is if 'standard controller technology' means microstepping
[14:35:16] <PetefromTn_> Believe me I am normally a servo guy but these new drives definitely close the gap between a stepper and a servo choice. It really comes down to what you need the motor to do.
[14:35:17] <PCW> the key difference is that a closed loop step drive knows the rotor position so can always apply current in the proper phase angle
[14:35:26] <renesis> if they wanted to be clear, they would say microstepping or full stepping
[14:35:39] <PetefromTn_> what difference does it make?
[14:36:00] <Jymmm> http://www.geckodrive.com/support/step-motor-basics.html
[14:36:02] <renesis> what do you mean
[14:36:11] <renesis> theyre making statements based on claims that are ambiguous
[14:36:16] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7BUTQoN0A
[14:36:26] <renesis> that i can reproduce with pretty standard step drivers from 10 years ago
[14:36:29] <PetefromTn_> This is another manufacturers video showing the same basic tech.
[14:36:43] <PetefromTn_> you can make your stepper NOT loose steps and run smoother?
[14:36:48] <renesis> at least this time they didnt hard pan the audio
[14:37:28] <renesis> petefromtn_: theyr motors lose steps
[14:37:31] <renesis> they get them back
[14:37:43] <renesis> at the edge of their operation envelope, so a rapid movement, it cant catch up
[14:37:59] <PetefromTn_> not really
[14:38:01] <renesis> i dont have probs with steppers unless theyre at the edge of their operational envelope
[14:38:37] <renesis> petefromtn_: year this is the same vid
[14:38:53] <renesis> their sound guy sucks, the mixer pan knob is fucked, audio at the beginning is fine
[14:39:08] <renesis> all it says, if you listen, if what it stalls it sends a signal to other devices
[14:39:14] <renesis> *when it stalls
[14:39:21] <PetefromTn_> ANY motor can stall
[14:39:25] <renesis> which is awesome, but nothing like a true servo drive
[14:39:35] <PCW> it is a true servo
[14:39:36] <renesis> right but steppers do it more, heh
[14:39:42] <PetefromTn_> actually can you tell me how it is different than a true servo?
[14:39:45] <renesis> okay a traditional servo
[14:39:47] <renesis> symantics
[14:39:47] <PCW> it is absoluetl a true servo
[14:40:11] <PCW> its a traditional servo
[14:40:14] <renesis> petefromtn_: the range of operation, most servos arent run until their torque curve is zero
[14:40:34] <PCW> of course not
[14:40:48] <renesis> steppers are
[14:40:57] <PetefromTn_> honestly I would normally NEVER consider a stepper because I like closed loop operation but after seeing a couple videos of these things it is certainly a viable option to a brushless servo
[14:41:04] <PCW> Nope you alway need margis
[14:41:11] <renesis> its neat because it has fault detection
[14:41:11] <PCW> margins
[14:41:20] <renesis> but so does an encoder on a standard stepper
[14:41:23] <renesis> with a standard drive
[14:41:27] <renesis> that im guessing is cheaper
[14:41:37] <PetefromTn_> well not that much cheaper it seems
[14:41:43] <renesis> like, if you feed them vector based data, that reduces load on the pc
[14:41:46] <renesis> thats a good thing
[14:42:07] <renesis> but in physical performance, i dont see a benefit
[14:42:07] <PetefromTn_> most any drive today has fault detection and alerting
[14:42:17] <renesis> not open loop steppers
[14:42:22] <renesis> step dir, yo
[14:43:08] <PetefromTn_> the benefit is that the damn thing will drive to position no matter what right up until it faults..
[14:43:21] <renesis> also, as i mentioned, adding code to linux cnc to make steppers more resilient using encoder feedback is pretty straight forward
[14:43:27] <PCW> They have the same torque/speed limitations of stepmotors (due to having many poles)
[14:43:34] <renesis> and kind of eliminates the benefits of the step servo drives
[14:43:55] <renesis> unless you need to vector based commands to reduce realtime load on the system
[14:44:36] <renesis> thats only an assumption based on step/dir signaling being very real time intensive versus driving servos
[14:44:45] <renesis> im not sure if thats the case, but its my understanding
[14:45:15] <renesis> they seem useful ad a signal adapter
[14:45:41] <PCW> lower heat load and better positioning accuracy are possible with close loop vs open loop step drives
[14:45:56] <renesis> lower heat might cause problems versus consistent loading
[14:46:09] <PetefromTn_> after watching that video I can tell you that if I ever built a stepper based machine it would undoubtedly have those closed loop hybrid steppers on it.
[14:46:15] <renesis> typically thermal cyclying is harder on coils than constant heat
[14:46:48] <renesis> well like i said theyre good marketing vids
[14:47:13] <CaptHindsight> because they expand and contract over temp?
[14:47:19] <renesis> yes
[14:47:28] <renesis> so the enamel rubs
[14:47:43] <PetefromTn_> you basically don't have to worry about lost steps anymore... what is marketing about that?
[14:47:46] <renesis> the enamel usually doesnt have issue with temps unless you are over spec
[14:47:54] <CaptHindsight> and the CTE is different between the coating and metal?
[14:47:58] <renesis> well im saying you do
[14:48:01] <PCW> Weve done this and its a smart and high performance way to drive step motors
[14:48:26] <PCW> (if you dont mind the cost of the encoder and more expensive drive)
[14:48:43] <renesis> petefromtn_: if you lose steps at rapid, it wont be able to catch up in time to end a cycle
[14:48:47] <PCW> you still are limited to maybe 200W max
[14:48:58] <renesis> its true that at lower speeds without load, it can likely catch up
[14:49:16] <PCW> it can always catch up
[14:49:19] <renesis> but in my experience, when steppers fuck up, its at the edge of their envelope
[14:49:27] <PetefromTn_> how do you figure that?
[14:49:29] <renesis> where trying to make them catch up will just make them skip more
[14:49:43] <PetefromTn_> THEY NEVER SKIP thats the whole point.
[14:49:46] <PCW> that what you dont understand, it NEVER skips
[14:49:46] <renesis> meanwhile
[14:49:51] <renesis> other steppers are still going
[14:49:55] <renesis> unless this is a one axis machine\
[14:50:05] <renesis> for a one axis machine this technology is wonderful
[14:50:21] <renesis> wtf @ never skips
[14:50:24] <PCW> and this is different from any other servo how?
[14:50:28] <renesis> okay so itll just stop the cycle
[14:50:55] <PetefromTn_> try not to think of it as a stepper and skipping more as a servo that is trying to maintain position.
[14:51:07] <renesis> pcw: the servos will likely slow down instead of just stop, prob less error, maybe the cycle can be recovered, restarted
[14:51:32] <PetefromTn_> that is what these do as well apparently
[14:51:41] <renesis> right and im saying that when steppers usually have problems, it wont be within the capability of the drive to have it catch up in time to keep the other drives from desyncing
[14:51:46] <PCW> but unlike a open loop stepper it could be 5 steps behind at catch up, a
[14:51:56] <renesis> so its basically a fault mechanism, versus normal feedback steppers
[14:52:15] <PCW> that is not any different from any other servo system
[14:52:16] <PetefromTn_> normal steppers have no feedback
[14:52:21] <renesis> um
[14:52:28] <renesis> you can put encoders on them
[14:52:33] <PCW> nope you still diont get it
[14:52:54] <renesis> or you dont understand my criticism
[14:53:23] <PCW> I do and you dont understand that these are full servos
[14:53:24] <renesis> normal steppers can have feedback, and can throw errors when theyre behind, or try and catch up
[14:53:38] <CaptHindsight> do any of the closed loop stepper drives list the length of their PID interval?
[14:53:49] <renesis> well i understand i just dont think it matters compared to running the equiv stepper properly with feedback encoders
[14:53:54] <PCW> probably 50 KHz or so
[14:54:05] <renesis> if shit fucks up, the controller can try and save, but its prob just going to stop
[14:54:26] <renesis> if the stepper has enough headroom, no reason linux cnc couldnt have it speed up to catch up
[14:54:31] <PCW> no different tha a standard servo (which they _are_)
[14:54:37] <renesis> my argument is that in both cases, it likely wont be able to fix the fault
[14:54:45] <renesis> and will just stop the cycle
[14:54:56] <CaptHindsight> if the motors and drives are properly sized for the application there won't be any problems
[14:55:04] <renesis> because a stepper run at full torque wouldnt have fallen behind like the servo stepper
[14:55:38] <renesis> im saying it doesnt seem to add benefit versus just putting encoders on steppers and feeding into linux cnc
[14:55:44] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight agreed
[14:55:47] <CaptHindsight> renesis: your scenarios are based on using the system outside of the design constraints
[14:56:11] <CaptHindsight> just outside
[14:56:16] <renesis> thats typically when shit fucks up and thats kind of how you run on small open loop step machines
[14:56:28] <renesis> which is when fault flags happen
[14:56:42] <renesis> run completely inside their envelope, none of this matters at all
[14:56:46] <ssi> PCW: I want to re-retrofit my HNC with newer, smaller drives and power supplies
[14:57:01] <ssi> PCW: it's all 90VDC... any thoughts on what I could do about a power supply for that?
[14:57:22] <PCW> transformer?
[14:57:27] <renesis> the step-servo drives seem greener and may load the controller less, i dont think theyll perform better
[14:57:43] <PCW> They do perform better
[14:57:49] <renesis> versus steppers with encoders back to the controller directly using standard chopper drives
[14:58:02] <ssi> the existing supply is a transformer, but it's effin massive and I'd like to try to get everything small enough to stick in the nema box on the side of the lathe
[14:58:02] <CaptHindsight> for a properly designed system they will both work equally well
[14:58:08] <ssi> was thinking switcher, but I dunno if that's a good idea
[14:58:12] <renesis> pcw: in a fault tolerance sense versus open loop steppers, yes
[14:58:33] <renesis> pcw: in a fault tolerance sense versus closed loop steppers, no
[14:58:34] <PCW> more fault resistance as well
[14:58:39] <renesis> but there are other benefits besides that
[14:58:44] <PCW> and better accuracy
[14:58:48] <renesis> and if youo need those and can afford the tech, neat
[14:59:00] <renesis> i dont think better accuracy versus closed loop step
[14:59:15] <PetefromTn_> the tech is just a little bit more expensive than typical drives and steppers..
[14:59:19] <PCW> vs open loop absolutely
[14:59:42] <renesis> yeah but thats like beating up toddlers
[14:59:43] <renesis> who cares
[14:59:44] <CaptHindsight> a discussion of what each system will do when pushed beyond it's design limits and margin for error is another topic
[14:59:52] <CaptHindsight> it's/its
[14:59:59] <renesis> well right that what im going on about
[15:00:16] <renesis> and all along my argument has been that within their envelope, they should act the same
[15:00:21] <CaptHindsight> but who does that?
[15:00:22] <renesis> else its not really cnc =\
[15:00:25] <CaptHindsight> save some $
[15:01:04] <renesis> and small cnc, which is a big part of what linux cnc are about, are constantly run up against their envelopes
[15:01:13] <renesis> shit thats almost what a small cnc is about
[15:01:24] <PCW> ssi if you use a switcher you have to worry about where the braking energy goes
[15:01:25] <renesis> LETS SEE IF THIS LITTLE 80LB MONSTER CAN DO STEEL TODAY!
[15:01:28] <PetefromTn_> which is exactly why these drives and motors are desireable..
[15:01:30] <ssi> good point
[15:01:58] <renesis> or encoders
[15:02:06] <PCW> so you likely still need large output capacitors
[15:02:18] <CaptHindsight> renesis: do you just use a bigger *duino then or move to the RPi for real power? :)
[15:02:49] <renesis> i program avr in asm since before arduino existed, please to fuck off
[15:02:59] <renesis> no offense
[15:03:04] <jdh> how rude.
[15:03:16] <PetefromTn_> I don't get why you cannot see that a cooler running, smoother, motor that cannot lose steps is not better...
[15:03:16] <renesis> kinda but he started it with the arduino jab
[15:03:32] <renesis> it can lose steps it can just catch up
[15:03:32] <jdh> that was the rude part.
[15:03:37] <renesis> and heat cycling coils is bad
[15:03:44] <renesis> and its more $$$, even if just a little more
[15:03:45] <PetefromTn_> there is no heat cycling
[15:03:55] <renesis> how is there no heat cycling if it reduces power
[15:04:02] <PetefromTn_> they just generall run cooler for the same size motor
[15:04:19] <renesis> so they wont use more power at higher loads?
[15:04:28] <renesis> than at lower loads?
[15:04:50] <PCW> yeah all bet the motors last a lot longer because if the much lower average temperature
[15:04:59] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iryj1bJlAd4
[15:05:07] <jdh> can a closed loop stepper really catch up if it misses steps?
[15:05:16] <PCW> sure
[15:05:34] <jdh> where does additional torque come from?
[15:05:41] <renesis> pcw: coil enamale handles high temp very well
[15:06:08] <renesis> and they tend to be in very assemblies, because high precision motors
[15:06:16] <renesis> so vibration isnt going to cause huge problems for the coils
[15:06:33] <renesis> which means short of just over spec operation, heat cycling is prob whats going to fuck the coils
[15:07:17] <PCW> the heat cycling will be _much_ lower than standard drives
[15:07:38] <renesis> microstepped drives?
[15:07:48] <renesis> shit just heats up stays hot
[15:08:08] <renesis> coils are prob close enough that temp changes between full on and full off coils is negligible
[15:08:14] <PCW> these will rarely get hot
[15:08:24] <renesis> and my whole argument may be bullshit if these things arent as green as i imagine
[15:08:44] <renesis> less power in an industrial sense when youre running spindle motors usually isnt a high priority
[15:09:04] <PCW> they are true servos so will get barely warm in normal use
[15:09:07] <renesis> especially considering steppers arent used a ton in very high power applications already
[15:09:26] <PCW> These are not for large machines
[15:09:41] <renesis> right, so power use is probably negligible
[15:10:23] <CaptHindsight> the power savings is during when they are parked
[15:10:56] <Connor> OKay, So, here is the BIG question for me. and this isn't even related to steppers vs servo's vs hybrid stepper servo's.. This has to do with closed loop.
[15:11:15] <renesis> capthindsight: so current could be close to zero
[15:11:49] <renesis> no reason it couldnt be zero
[15:11:51] <CaptHindsight> jdh: if there's not enough torque there's just not enough torque, there's no super boost feature
[15:12:13] <Connor> Closed Loop to the driver with fault indication vs Closed loop to linuxcnc. What's the benefit, if ANY to doing closed loop to linuxcnc? (You can get SERVO drivers that are step/dir like Gecko's)
[15:12:49] <renesis> the drives arent operating in isolation
[15:13:14] <renesis> an algorithm could slow all three drives down in certain low fault conditions
[15:13:23] <renesis> and hopefully fix the issue
[15:13:34] <Connor> renesis: Is that a response to my question? And Does linuxcnc make USE of that ?
[15:13:52] <renesis> it could a lot easier than getting the servo drive companies to impliment it
[15:14:48] <renesis> like, if the encoders or an error signal isnt sent back to the controller, its open loop
[15:14:59] <Connor> renesis: and in some cases SLOWING down the feed rate, is exactly the WRONG thing to do. I.E. Milling Aluminum.. could lead to chip welding, which would increase the load..
[15:15:14] <CaptHindsight> jdh: if that is the issue, you're moving too fast, used a motor with not enough power, have rusty bearings, too high a load, to rapid an accel etc etc
[15:15:14] <renesis> if only a boolean error signal is sent back to linux cnc, its barely closed loop
[15:15:16] <PCW> the advantages of closed loop to linuxcnc are
[15:15:18] <PCW> never lose position even in estop so no need to rehome
[15:15:19] <PCW> ability to see where the motors really are
[15:15:21] <PCW> ability to use linuxcncs smart ferror bounds
[15:16:05] <Connor> I got the first 2, what the smart ferror bounds ?
[15:16:15] <renesis> yeah and with standard drives and encoders, which may be cheaper, i get those benefits
[15:16:21] <renesis> im not sure i do with the step-servos
[15:16:37] <renesis> connor: prob just an allowable error spec
[15:17:00] <PCW> with simple step-servos like Geckos you have a single ferror limit
[15:17:01] <renesis> like if you have backlash, and you know error will undo itself on dir changes, you can tell it to not halt on that if its within your tolerances
[15:17:27] <zeeshan|2> sweeeeet
[15:17:35] <renesis> pcw: i think its just a pin changes state, no?
[15:17:39] <PCW> linuxcncs ferror bounds scale with velocity (since your errors will as well)
[15:17:46] <zeeshan|2> i scored 3 sheets of 36x36x1/8" magesnium sheets
[15:17:50] <zeeshan|2> what i'm going to do with them i dont know
[15:17:53] <zeeshan|2> :D
[15:17:54] <renesis> neat
[15:17:57] <PetefromTn_> renesis are you operating a stepper based system on linuxCNC with encoder feedback ?
[15:17:58] <renesis> make a fire
[15:18:00] <zeeshan|2> haha
[15:18:08] <renesis> petefromtn_: nope, open loop
[15:18:10] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking of making my dash out of them
[15:18:11] <zeeshan|2> for the rx7
[15:18:12] <renesis> my cnc is fureal shit
[15:18:31] <renesis> none of this safety and fault detection bullshit
[15:18:34] <PetefromTn_> so how do you figure you get those benefits Pete stated?
[15:18:39] <Connor> PCW: Okay.. now ere getting somewhere. So, if we do closed loop to the stepper/servo and add a encode splitter to linuxcnc.. and configure the driver so that it operates like a servo and not sends a fault on stall..
[15:18:42] <renesis> you just tune the machine and run it in its encelope
[15:18:51] <renesis> and verify you didnt skip
[15:18:58] <renesis> petefromtn_: i dont?
[15:19:02] <renesis> i never said i did?
[15:19:39] <renesis> im saying, over and over, i dont see the point of a step-servo drive for performance over a standard step drive and feedback
[15:19:44] <Connor> the never loosing position on estop can be a big deal.
[15:19:54] <PCW> Connor: fancier servos have a simulated encoder output
[15:19:56] <renesis> and without bringing the closed loop of the step servos back to the controller, its pretty much open loop
[15:20:01] <renesis> so less flexible
[15:20:02] <PetefromTn_> you just did say that.
[15:20:34] <renesis> paste an ill help you understand or admit im incorrect otherwise i dont know what youre referring to
[15:20:42] <Connor> pcw Right, I think the ones PetefromTn_ is using on his Cincinnati have that. But, those hybrid stepper-servo drivers don't.
[15:21:13] <PetefromTn_> do they not have encoder output...
[15:21:15] <zeeshan|2> connor when the way youve got it setup
[15:21:21] <zeeshan|2> youre gonna loose position anyway when you e-stop
[15:21:24] <zeeshan|2> cause you kill the power to the servos :P
[15:21:26] <zeeshan|2> er steppers
[15:21:30] <renesis> and since you bring up the geck step-servo, i assumed the benefit was just using the vector interface
[15:21:54] <renesis> unloading the real time engine in the controller
[15:21:57] <Connor> zeeshan|2: Yes, but you don't kill power to the encoders.. so the machine still knows the position.
[15:21:59] <PCW> if you can set the drives ferror limit high enough and you bring the encoder data back to linuxcnc you have a full closed loop servo system
[15:22:08] <renesis> right
[15:22:17] <zeeshan|2> connor that's true i didnt think about that
[15:22:17] <zeeshan|2> :D
[15:22:24] <renesis> but what benefits do you have versus closed loop with a standard step driver?
[15:22:27] <PetefromTn_> can that be done?
[15:22:36] <renesis> youre saying the servo will catch up and that makes it better
[15:22:46] <renesis> im saying the steppers wouldnt have ever of fallen behind
[15:22:57] <renesis> because theyre using all the torque they can instead of throttling
[15:23:56] <renesis> so using step-servos open loop with only a fault flag is probably less beneficial then using standard step droves, and bringing encoders back to the controller
[15:24:03] <renesis> because of the benefits mentioned
[15:24:26] <renesis> if you bring the encoder signals from the step-servos back to the controllels, its effectively the same system
[15:24:55] <Connor> and steppers, typically have stronger holding torque than servo's.
[15:24:57] <renesis> except the pc doesnt have to step/dir the driver
[15:24:58] <PCW> close loop stepper has better accuracy, lower power, and robust recovery from disturbances that will permanently stall a open loop stepper
[15:25:02] <renesis> which may be a huge benefit, actually
[15:25:09] <jdh> we got some schneider lexium closed loop steppers in. They look pretty nifty.
[15:25:18] <jdh> but, using them for positioning systems, not CNC
[15:25:22] <renesis> pcw: yeah but recovering from those possibly throws it out of sync
[15:25:29] <renesis> and i dont necessarilly believe that
[15:25:34] <renesis> when run at the edge of the envelope
[15:25:41] <renesis> which is where steppers fuck up
[15:26:06] <PCW> if the are within ferror limit its OK a open loop drive it get out of sync and stall
[15:26:11] <renesis> you shows me one video that shows the diff between a single drive in isolation with feedback, which isnt really relavent to synchronised cnc operation
[15:26:28] <Jymmm> THe only time I've seen closed stepper is for use in precision motion; such as wafer fab robotics and 50,000th microsteppeing, so speed , torque, are irrelevant.
[15:26:50] <renesis> steppers are cheap
[15:27:37] <PCW> and can be run as true servos with encoders and the correct drive electronics :-)
[15:28:01] <renesis> with virtually no benefit other than unloading the pc and reducing power
[15:28:34] <PCW> better accuracy, robust stall recovery lower power, what not to like?
[15:28:56] <renesis> if you want to close loop your step cnc, i dont see the point of having a servo drive unless your pc is shit and you cant do step/dir fast enough
[15:29:03] <renesis> better accuracy isnt try
[15:29:06] <renesis> true
[15:29:28] <renesis> robust stall recovery also isnt unique
[15:29:39] <renesis> versus just putting encoders on a stepper with a standard drive
[15:30:17] <renesis> i think you need to disconnect the step-servo drive and the controller feedback aspecs of this
[15:30:50] <PCW> not the same (thats not a true AC servo that always keeps the proper commutation angle)
[15:30:53] <renesis> step-servo without feedback to controller is less beneficial than a standard stepper with feedback to the controller
[15:30:59] <renesis> and ill just end it at that
[15:31:22] <zeeshan|2> renesis nice to see you making friends in this c hannel
[15:31:32] <PetefromTn_> renesis have you actually built or used a system like you are talking about and Pete is talking about and have direct knowledge or are you just speculating?
[15:31:33] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[15:31:46] <jdh> you know how argumentative those 'duino rep-rapper types get.
[15:31:55] <renesis> yeah i dont come here to make friends, i come here to bitch about my problems and make features happen =)
[15:32:10] <zeeshan|2> dont worry guys
[15:32:16] <renesis> also, zee youre a fake ass kissing mfkr, dont talk about friends to me
[15:32:22] <zeeshan|2> ??
[15:32:26] <CaptHindsight> jdh: I beg to differ!
[15:32:49] <Jymmm> jdh: I agree!
[15:32:50] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: pete why are you referring to yoruself in 3rd person
[15:32:51] <zeeshan|2> haha
[15:33:00] <renesis> petefromtn_: again, im done with the convo, no one has said anything to the contrary of my last statement
[15:33:16] <PetefromTn_> no you just don't want to believe it.
[15:33:51] <PetefromTn_> Pete at mesa has actually designed and built these systems apparently and has DIRECT knowledge of them and how they work.
[15:34:33] <PetefromTn_> And to be sure from what I have seen of his relatively VAST knowledge of all things CNC and motor control I tend to accept what he says as accurate.
[15:36:05] * Jymmm grabs the popcorn and just laughs
[15:37:22] <zeeshan|2> Jymmm: lol
[15:37:22] * jdh grabs his car keys and goes home.
[15:37:23] <zeeshan|2> jdh lathe season!
[15:37:23] <zeeshan|2> get er done
[15:38:11] <jdh> z: almost. went diving yesterday.
[15:38:12] <zeeshan|2> isn't it too cold
[15:38:13] <jdh> no, I don't live in canada
[15:38:27] <zeeshan|2> are you in florida?
[15:38:27] <jdh> .nc.us
[15:38:27] <zeeshan|2> well shit it gets cold there!
[15:38:27] <jdh> too many canadian in florida
[15:38:27] <jdh> it's 76f and sunny today.
[15:38:29] <zeeshan|2> renesis:
[15:38:29] <zeeshan|2> get edumacated
[15:38:29] <zeeshan|2> http://en.nanotec.com/support/application-notes/closed-loop-description/
[15:38:30] <renesis> this is like you posting a drawing with a lot of dimensions like that somehow proves something about inspection
[15:38:30] <zeeshan|2> just read the first two lines
[15:38:30] <zeeshan|2> Closed-loop compatible stepper motors combine the advantages of stepper and servo motor technologies. They run more smoothly and with less resonance than stepper motors, yet they afford position feedback and control along with short transient and free oscillation times, and they do not suffer a loss of steps.
[15:38:32] <zeeshan|2> Compared to servo-motors, closed-loop compatible stepper motors have advantages due to high torque at low RPM, short transient times, correct positioning without convergence, lower price, and often smaller size.
[15:38:32] <renesis> dude, seriously youre just bringing up what we covered
[15:38:32] <zeeshan|2> i came late to the game
[15:38:32] <zeeshan|2> :{
[15:38:32] <renesis> they dont lose steps because theyre going slower and need to catch up
[15:38:34] <renesis> also a lot of those applications mentioned are motors in isolation
[15:38:38] <renesis> note cnc machine tools isnt listed in their applications
[15:38:56] <zeeshan|2> pcw's name is pete?
[15:38:57] <zeeshan|2> okay
[15:39:04] <zeeshan|2> i was gettong confused why you were talking about yourself haha
[15:39:16] <renesis> okay
[15:39:18] <zeeshan|2> yea and i'll take pcw's word any day
[15:39:24] <renesis> so instead of addressing what ive said
[15:39:25] <zeeshan|2> hes motor control master
[15:39:30] <renesis> youre just saying some guy says its better
[15:39:46] <zeeshan|2> he's not just "Some guy"
[15:39:47] <zeeshan|2> rofl
[15:39:56] <renesis> its always some guy to someone
[15:40:10] <zeeshan|2> you're an idiot
[15:40:13] <zeeshan|2> just leave
[15:40:19] <renesis> of course zeeshan|2
[15:40:23] <zeeshan|2> i'm the only one allowed to cause crap in here
[15:40:25] <zeeshan|2> not you
[15:40:34] <renesis> dude ive been causing crap in here for almost 10 years
[15:40:34] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[15:41:20] <Connor> OKay, ENOUGH. My Questions have been answered. The benefits of closed loop the LinuxCNC vs just the driver.
[15:41:32] <zeeshan|2> connor
[15:41:40] <zeeshan|2> if you closed loop through linuxcnc
[15:41:41] <renesis> look when you see a page that only lists benefits without any drawbacks, its typically some sort of marketing page
[15:41:45] <zeeshan|2> wouldn't it to be too slow?
[15:41:51] <zeeshan|2> it's like trying to do velocity control of a servo through linuxcnc?
[15:41:53] <Jymmm> renesis: DUH
[15:42:15] <renesis> thanks for agreeing
[15:42:30] <Jymmm> renesis: That's like saying water is wet. You are stating the obvious.
[15:42:41] <Connor> zeeshan|2: That's the next question. How to configure a step/dir servo setup so that it's closed loop to linuxcnc. Do you run it as a step/dir like steppers, or do you configure it as a velocity setup.
[15:42:53] <renesis> well zee is posting marketing pages like GET EDUCATED
[15:42:54] <Connor> Using MESA cards, no, it wouldn't be to slow
[15:43:01] <zeeshan|2> i guess that depends on your driver
[15:43:09] <renesis> right
[15:43:12] <zeeshan|2> i know m y driver can take both step/dir and analog
[15:43:13] <PetefromTn_> that is what I would like to know..
[15:43:22] <Jymmm> renesis: Yes, and you can choose to ignore it.
[15:43:33] <zeeshan|2> renesis: learn from Jymmm
[15:43:36] <zeeshan|2> he ignores me all the time!
[15:43:38] <renesis> jymmm: its zee, i would rather point it out
[15:44:13] <Jymmm> renesis: And I'd rather muzzle annoying people. Just because I can, doens't mean I should.
[15:44:24] <zeeshan|2> Jymmm: did you just call me annoying!
[15:44:37] <zeeshan|2> after all we've been through?
[15:44:43] * zeeshan|2 sets cnc on fire and jumps off a bridge
[15:45:09] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: If the clue-by-four smacks you across the face... TAKE THE HINT
[15:45:31] <zeeshan|2> i just like arguing with renesis
[15:45:32] <zeeshan|2> it's fun
[15:45:34] <zeeshan|2> he gets so mad
[15:45:34] <renesis> jymmm: its cool when he wants help with something hes really polite
[15:45:49] <renesis> generally a kiss ass
[15:46:03] <Jymmm> renesis: /join #we-dont-give-a-shit-really
[15:46:19] <zeeshan|2> so icalled around for 24x24x8 enclosures
[15:46:20] <zeeshan|2> holy cow
[15:46:21] <renesis> does that fit on efnet?
[15:46:29] <zeeshan|2> anywhere from 600 to 400 bux
[15:46:37] <zeeshan|2> =/
[15:46:43] <renesis> does on freenode
[15:46:47] <renesis> forgot where i am
[15:47:03] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: are you planning to put closed loop steppers on the lathe?
[15:47:33] <PetefromTn_> not sure what I am going to put on the lathe yet why?
[15:47:37] <CaptHindsight> this is a good example of how peer pressure effects interpersonal behavior, spend a few days in #reprap if you dare
[15:47:48] <_methods> hahah
[15:48:02] <renesis> no
[15:48:06] <PetefromTn_> sounds like a little bit of hell on earth to me
[15:48:45] <zeeshan|2> well
[15:48:53] <zeeshan|2> i think you should do closed loop stepper
[15:49:03] <zeeshan|2> then you can tell me how it works out :D
[15:49:12] <zeeshan|2> and then i can use it on my plasma cutter
[15:50:53] <PetefromTn_> to be sure before I saw those videos depicting how the closed loop stepper works I would have never even considered trying a stepper for a CNC build.
[15:51:35] <PetefromTn_> unless it was just a fun table top toy machine or something.
[15:51:37] <renesis> so does other pete run feedback into the controller
[15:55:05] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: the difference is so obvious according to the video connor posted
[15:55:07] <zeeshan|2> that made me sold
[15:55:09] <zeeshan|2> :)
[15:57:53] <renesis> yeah but this drive expert other pete, does he run the feedback from his drive systems to a single controller
[16:19:05] <Deejay> gn8
[16:19:30] <renesis> wot u say
[16:19:45] <Jymmm> Deejay: Hey, you've only been there for 14 hours, get your ass back to work!
[16:20:10] <Deejay> negative!
[16:20:10] <renesis> omg slackers
[16:20:28] <Deejay> you already fired me twice (or even more often)
[16:20:37] <renesis> mean
[16:20:51] <Jymmm> Deejay: Slaves are sold, not fired!
[16:21:01] <Deejay> haha
[16:21:12] <Jymmm> Deejay: GN9
[16:21:25] <Deejay> nighty
[16:45:14] <zeeshan|2> 36
[16:51:28] <PCW> zeeshan|2 : closed loop step motors/drives are probably not suited for petes lathe as they are not big enough
[16:51:41] <zeeshan|2> pcw is your name pete?
[16:51:50] <PCW> might be
[16:52:05] <zeeshan|2> i was getting confused who petefromtn was referring to as pete
[16:52:06] <zeeshan|2> lol
[16:52:27] <zeeshan|2> by big enough you mean there isn't a driver that will power 2400oz-in steppers?
[16:52:33] <zeeshan|2> or 1200oz-in
[16:52:59] <PCW> step motors dont get bigger than a few hundred watts
[16:53:46] <zeeshan|2> i googled your name
[16:53:50] <zeeshan|2> google knows all
[16:54:05] <PCW> yeah
[16:54:33] <zeeshan|2> what application were you running the closed loop steppers in?
[16:55:04] <PCW> some of our FPGA software runs them
[16:57:14] <PCW> and we made a drive but never produced it (basically you use Field Oriented Control just like a digital brushless drive but 2 phase instead of 3)
[16:58:18] <PCW> we had no trouble spinning step motors to 6000 RPM or so
[16:58:33] <renesis> ha, nice
[16:58:42] <zeeshan|2> for in your opinion, closed loop steppers should be used for lower power applications
[16:58:48] <zeeshan|2> so they can be benefiicial for say a 3d printer
[16:58:51] <zeeshan|2> or plasma cutter etc?
[16:58:58] <zeeshan|2> for = so
[16:59:57] <PCW> well its a motor limitation (and really big step motors can have huge torques but are still low power since the torque drops off so quickly)
[17:00:23] <zeeshan|2> okay i see what you mean now
[17:05:13] <PCW> step motors also simplify commutation compared to BLDC since you can always run the in step motor mode to get initial rotor alignment
[17:05:15] <PCW> (so no Halls/absolute encoders needed)
[17:06:25] <renesis> you mean alignment of the coils and magnets internally?
[17:07:37] <PCW> Finding out the rotor electrical angle
[17:07:56] <renesis> like relative encoder steps are < motor coils?
[17:08:27] <renesis> else i dont understand if you have more encoder steps than steps/rev
[17:08:33] <PCW> where the rotor poles are relative to the stator
[17:09:00] <renesis> right, this means you have <= encoder steps than motor steps?
[17:09:24] <PCW> no the more encoder steps the better
[17:09:27] <renesis> and i guess some fixed relationship
[17:09:46] <PCW> (we used 8192 count)
[17:10:29] <PCW> so that's about 2 electrical degree resolution
[17:10:32] <renesis> yeah i guess i dont understand how it cant tell where the poles are if there are more encoder ticks than steps
[17:11:01] <renesis> with a relative encoder and without some other ref
[17:11:31] <PCW> the other ref is running the motor like a step motor at startup
[17:11:39] <renesis> oh
[17:11:49] <renesis> right you said that at the beginning, neat
[17:12:18] <PCW> from then on its just math
[17:12:20] <renesis> so you drive a set of coils 100% and call it aligned
[17:12:49] <renesis> i guess you can do that with BLDC but its gonna be a lot more drama, heh
[17:13:05] <PCW> yep (well maybe a bit fancier but thats the main thing)
[17:13:35] <PCW> yeah a BLDC will have a lot longer uncontrolled move
[17:13:41] <renesis> right if you left the motor at an in between state, and retain that, you still know positioning
[17:14:41] <PCW> yeah you retain that until you lose encoder or drive power
[17:15:10] <PCW> fancy BLDC drives have absolute encoders on the motor
[17:15:29] <renesis> whats cost like for absolute versus relative?
[17:30:26] <PCW> Dont really know cheapest good absolute I Know is Avago 17 bit which with code wheel is ~$100
[17:30:27] <PCW> the Austria microsystems Hall based absolute encoders are pretty cheap but not terribly accurate or fast
[17:41:12] <renesis> pcw: ha, yeah $100 does not seem friendly
[17:41:51] <PCW> well thats not bad for that resolution
[17:45:29] <renesis> yeah but you need 17 bits?
[17:45:42] <renesis> quite a bit more than 8192
[17:46:22] <renesis> jezus fuck how do they even fit that many positions
[17:47:39] <renesis> im also afraid to know what systems needs that kind of res, unless its just a way to try and determine noise floor
[18:05:35] <PCW> for high performance servos, high resolution is mainly used for better velocity estimation
[18:08:17] <PCW> that is if you want to move slowly without jittering around
[18:18:54] <PCW> (i have a 16M count/turn encoder on my desk)
[18:20:13] <_DannyK_> Looking at a 220V 1/3 phase VFD Variable Frequency Drive VFD Inverter for a stock motor of a Hurco KMB1 variable a/c motor, Am I barking up the right tree?
[18:41:10] <Connor> renesis: Would you PLEASE watch your language on the channel.
[18:42:20] <renesis> is that policy or a personal req?
[18:43:39] <Connor> renesis:
https://freenode.net/poundfreenode.shtml
[18:43:51] <Connor> freenode policy in general.
[18:44:00] <Connor> and personal request as well.
[18:44:13] <renesis> but lilos dead
[18:44:22] <renesis> oh
[18:44:33] <renesis> thats #freenode policy, not freenode policy
[18:45:14] <Connor> Pretty much goes for any channel in general.. It's just common courtesy.
[18:46:11] <renesis> https://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml
[18:46:31] <renesis> prob a more appropriate link
[18:48:38] <renesis> connor: you prob want to qualify that with 'channels on freenode'
[18:49:06] <renesis> its not typical at all for irc =) if youre corp or have kids or are a kid, just dont connect to irc
[18:49:56] <renesis> the majority of channels im in, language is absolutely a non issue until it is directed at someone
[18:50:40] <renesis> and i would consider zeeshan|2 calling me an idiot a lot more innappropriate than me saying jezus f*ck as a matter of expressing surprise and directed at no one
[19:47:37] <Connor> pcw Which inputs on 7i76 can read analog voltage ?
[19:47:48] <Connor> pcw_home: ?
[19:48:22] <PCW> 0,1,2,3
[19:48:56] <Connor> crap.
[19:49:05] <Connor> I already assigned 0,1,2,3 to something.
[19:53:30] <Connor> Going to use a resistor ladder for XYZA Feed % Spindle % and the other as 1 10 100 1000
[19:53:59] <Connor> Hopefully that'll work.
[19:54:13] <PCW> run out of inputs already?
[19:54:28] <Connor> No. Just wires and connectors. :)
[19:54:43] <Connor> DB9 to run from console pendant to control box.
[19:56:02] <Connor> +12v, estop, push-to-start, +5v, MPG A MPG B, Power Bar Relase, that's 7 wires.. only 2 left and shield.
[19:56:22] <Connor> Hmm.. I may not have enough still..
[19:56:57] <Connor> I guess I could switch out the db9 for a HD-db15
[20:00:10] <Connor> Question. On pendants.. Which rotary switch normal controls the OFF ? The Axis select, or the units select ?
[20:00:40] <Connor> I have 6 position rotary.. so, for the Axis, It'll Be X, Y, Z, A, Feed %, Spindle % which is ALL 6.
[20:01:08] <PCW> HD-DBs are a pain to terminate :-(
[20:01:09] <Connor> But for Units, I could have Off, 1x, 10x, 100x, 1000x, 10000x
[20:01:31] <PCW> well obviously you should buy a 7I73
[20:01:43] <Connor> ROFL. I KNEW you where going to say that.
[20:03:28] <PCW> bbl dinner time!
[20:03:32] <Connor> pcw I can get db15's in chrimp
[20:03:37] <Connor> which is what I always use.
[20:04:16] <_DannyK_> Does the 7i77 do rs-485 modbus?
[20:04:51] <Connor> I don't think so. I think you use a standard Rs-232 to rs-485 convert on a serial port of the PC
[20:06:16] <_DannyK_> I guess, I was just exercising food for thought idea for a master plan
[20:06:50] <_DannyK_> ty
[20:10:26] <_DannyK_> Anyone here use rs485 on a Huanyang VFD?
[20:16:32] <_DannyK_> if anyone is interested in the linux cnc and 485 junk #53
[20:40:01] <zeeshan|2> hi _DannyK_
[20:40:12] <zeeshan|2> 7i77 doesnt do modbus
[20:40:17] <zeeshan|2> but you can get yourself a rs232 to rs485 converter
[20:40:24] <zeeshan|2> for $5 on ebay
[20:40:50] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RS232-to-RS485-1-2KM-Data-Interface-Adapter-Converter-Good-quality-/201200067413?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed8756355
[20:40:51] <_DannyK_> Thank you, zee
[20:40:56] <zeeshan|2> maybe one similar to that from usa
[20:41:00] <zeeshan|2> takes too long from china
[20:41:23] <zeeshan|2> that is the exact one im using for modbus communication
[20:41:33] <_DannyK_> I have time... I don't have the VFD yet..
[20:41:39] <zeeshan|2> the huanyang vfd also has a modbus driver (how developed it is i don't know)
[20:41:42] <zeeshan|2> but you can easily modify it
[20:42:48] <zeeshan|2> crap i take that back
[20:42:52] <zeeshan|2> i was confusing it with the GS2.
[20:43:24] <_DannyK_> Take which part back?
[20:43:31] <zeeshan|2> there being a driver for that vfd
[20:43:44] <zeeshan|2> if indeed there is no driver
[20:43:55] <zeeshan|2> i'd use kirk wallaces mvx9000 driver and modify it to pass the commands you need
[20:44:02] <zeeshan|2> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[20:44:35] <_DannyK_> are you sure there is no driver?
[20:44:37] <_DannyK_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/phase-converters/91847-huanyang-vfd-rs485-modbus.html
[20:46:18] <XXCoder> heys
[20:46:29] <zeeshan|2> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/phase-converters/91847-huanyang-vfd-rs485-modbus-3.html#post704008
[20:46:31] <zeeshan|2> okay there is some code
[20:46:34] <zeeshan|2> but it looks old
[20:47:55] <_DannyK_> Last driver for this would be place at 4-9-2014, not too old..
[20:48:09] <_DannyK_> driver/code
[20:48:30] <zeeshan|2> i don't know about your specific drive
[20:48:34] <zeeshan|2> but modbus is a standard
[20:48:38] <zeeshan|2> so it'll work the same for all vfds
[20:48:53] <zeeshan|2> with the exception that maybe one vfd wants a 01100111 command for run
[20:48:59] <zeeshan|2> and another might want
[20:49:01] <zeeshan|2> 01111111
[20:49:02] <zeeshan|2> :P
[20:49:15] <zeeshan|2> and some vfds just have a lot more commands you can customize
[20:49:41] <zeeshan|2> like you can get it to report amp and voltage to you
[20:49:42] <_DannyK_> nice, from what I read the Huanyang modbus is crap and needs custom drivers
[20:49:58] <zeeshan|2> from which wne you multiply them you get watts
[20:50:01] <zeeshan|2> and you can convert it to hp
[20:50:28] <zeeshan|2> and you know your maximum hp based on the FLA rating on the motor name plate, so you can get a ratio of current power consumption / total power avaiable and display a fancy "load meter"
[20:50:44] <zeeshan|2> _DannyK_: i guess theyre not following standard then?
[20:51:02] <_DannyK_> correct
[20:51:26] <_DannyK_> A question I asked earlier, since I have limited experience with VFD’s in general, would a VFD, single phase to 3 phase, work for a Hurco KMB-1, maybe you could tell me if I'm barking up the right tree?
[20:52:24] <zeeshan|2> you can generally use single phase on a 3 phase vfd
[20:52:34] <zeeshan|2> but you have to get a vfd thats double the size
[20:52:39] <zeeshan|2> so if your motor is 1hp, you need a 2hp motor
[20:52:41] <zeeshan|2> er
[20:52:43] <zeeshan|2> 2hp drive.
[20:53:11] <_DannyK_> I heard about a derating, but I thought it was only 30% not 50%
[20:53:19] <zeeshan|2> but some drives come prerated to be driven using single phase, and you dont need to derate
[20:53:24] <zeeshan|2> no its about 50%
[20:53:35] <_DannyK_> sweet..
[20:53:43] <zeeshan|2> single phase current = sqrt(3)*3phasecurrent
[20:54:22] <_DannyK_> Well, I see how it is, you are you math against me..
[20:54:32] <_DannyK_> using*
[20:54:34] <zeeshan|2> the math says 75%
[20:54:42] <zeeshan|2> but the thing is when you account for the ripple
[20:54:53] <zeeshan|2> most people say rate it 2x.
[20:55:32] <zeeshan|2> if you look at for example an eaton 1hp --- 3 ph model input vs 1 ph model input
[20:56:01] <zeeshan|2> you'll see the current capacities are off by a factor of 2
[20:56:14] <_DannyK_> Right..
[20:56:30] <zeeshan|2> what is a hurco kmb-1?
[20:56:30] <_DannyK_> It makes sense, just never really thought about it..
[20:56:36] <_DannyK_> Alright, zeehan|2, thank you for the information...
[20:56:43] <_DannyK_> I appreciate the time..
[20:56:51] <PetefromTn_andro> Cnc knee mill
[20:57:20] <zeeshan|2> np
[20:57:23] <zeeshan|2> wow thats a huge machine
[20:57:30] <_DannyK_> uh huh...
[20:57:40] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HURCO-KMB-1-CNC-KNEE-MILL-/291002883487?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c11f9d9f
[20:57:44] <_DannyK_> Pain in the ass to move
[20:57:53] <zeeshan|2> nolt much z travel though :/
[20:58:19] * ssi has moved something like 44,000 lb worth of machines in the last three weeks
[20:58:23] <_DannyK_> I was thinking about powering my knee as well
[20:58:23] <ssi> not much phases me at this point :P
[20:58:34] <zeeshan|2> ssi: rofl
[20:58:39] <zeeshan|2> if i was near by i'd help you
[20:58:42] <zeeshan|2> machine moving is fun
[20:58:47] <zeeshan|2> its exhausting but fun
[20:58:55] <ssi> I'm nearly done
[20:59:05] <ssi> need to clean out the left side of the hangar and get the bridgeport placed
[20:59:10] <ssi> and then rerig the table on it
[20:59:17] <zeeshan|2> you're gonan shift the airports foundation
[20:59:18] <ssi> then everything needs to come off skids and be levelled, and electrical run
[20:59:19] <zeeshan|2> with all that weight
[20:59:21] <zeeshan|2> ;D
[20:59:22] <ssi> GOOD
[20:59:30] <zeeshan|2> btw
[20:59:32] <ssi> means I'm doing it right
[20:59:41] <zeeshan|2> how much does a plane like yours weigh?
[20:59:47] <ssi> 1450lb empty
[20:59:50] <ssi> for the cherokee
[20:59:54] <zeeshan|2> wow
[20:59:56] <ssi> the RV will be 1100lb when it's done
[20:59:58] <zeeshan|2> and with fluid?
[21:00:00] <ssi> it's probably about 550lb right now
[21:00:08] <zeeshan|2> fluid = gas
[21:00:13] <ssi> cherokee with full fuel weighs 1750, and gross takeoff weight is 2150
[21:00:28] <zeeshan|2> so its kinda like flying a mazda miata
[21:00:30] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:00:37] <ssi> something like that :)
[21:00:42] <ssi> except it probably has more power
[21:00:46] <ssi> and definitely has more torques
[21:00:52] <zeeshan|2> 300hp ish?
[21:01:00] <ssi> nah the cherokee is just 150hp
[21:01:08] <zeeshan|2> that amazes me man
[21:01:18] <ssi> but it's 150hp at 2600rpm
[21:01:26] <ssi> so it's >300lbft
[21:01:34] <zeeshan|2> so its like a v8 engine
[21:01:35] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:01:47] <ssi> yeah, except it's a flat four with HUGE cylinders
[21:01:52] <ssi> 320 cubic inch 4cyl
[21:02:03] <zeeshan|2> thats huge for a 4 banger haha
[21:02:10] <ssi> the engine for the RV is a 360ci 4 cyl that makes 200hp at 2700rpm
[21:02:17] <zeeshan|2> my v8 is 366 ci
[21:02:27] <_DannyK_> you guys have a good night
[21:02:28] <zeeshan|2> so i can just imagine the size of the pistons on the flat 4
[21:02:32] <ssi> 5.25"
[21:02:36] <zeeshan|2> hahahah
[21:02:54] <ssi> also the engine weighs 281lb
[21:03:05] <_DannyK_> Thanks agian, zeehan|2
[21:03:09] <zeeshan|2> _DannyK_: np gnite
[21:03:45] <zeeshan|2> man ive been trying to search for a 24x24x8 enclosure
[21:03:46] <zeeshan|2> all day long
[21:04:08] <zeeshan|2> the cloest thing i've found is a 24x24x8 screw down cover
[21:04:10] <zeeshan|2> i really want a door
[21:04:17] <zeeshan|2> i have a screw down cover for hte lathe, and it sucks
[21:04:29] <zeeshan|2> but the box is brand new $65
[21:05:36] <XXCoder> make your own?
[21:05:41] <zeeshan|2> no
[21:05:58] <zeeshan|2> it takes eaton like 2 hours to make one using specialized equipment
[21:06:05] <zeeshan|2> its gonna take me a couple days!
[21:06:19] <zeeshan|2> nema 4 that is
[21:06:25] <XXCoder> well ok. might be cheaper than trying to find one?
[21:06:33] <XXCoder> if you take week looking its faster too
[21:06:40] <zeeshan|2> thats true
[21:06:49] <zeeshan|2> i ordered a new battery for my old iphone 4
[21:07:02] <zeeshan|2> theres a contact in there of a guy who i know has a surplus of enclosures
[21:07:11] <zeeshan|2> he owes me money
[21:07:17] <XXCoder> it wont boot without battery?
[21:07:18] <zeeshan|2> lets see if i can get a box from him
[21:07:24] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: yea it wont
[21:07:35] <XXCoder> too bad
[21:07:40] <zeeshan|2> im really hoping replacing the battery will let me boot it up
[21:07:44] <zeeshan|2> just enough to recover some of my old contacts
[21:08:14] <zeeshan|2> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-storage-bench/hamilton/1960s-electrical-cabinets-tool-cabinets/1027647460?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
[21:08:17] <zeeshan|2> my other option is
[21:08:19] <zeeshan|2> one of these..
[21:08:30] <zeeshan|2> this might be better cause theyre so roomy
[21:09:43] <XXCoder> good luck
[21:12:44] <zeeshan|2> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-image.html?adId=517429592&image=0&enableSearchNavigationFlag=false
[21:12:44] <zeeshan|2> wow!
[21:13:15] <PetefromTn_andro> Connor I read that you are planning to setup rotary switches for axis and step value selection.
[21:13:29] <Connor> PetefromTn_andro: Yup.
[21:13:56] <PetefromTn_andro> How are you wiring that and what kind of switches did you select
[21:14:12] <Connor> Wondering which switch to use for OFF to make sure the the MPG doesn't move something by accident.
[21:15:01] <Connor> Just standard rotary switches from Radio Shack. I can wire them up so that they use 1 input per selection... Or use something called a resistor ladder and use Input 0,1,2,3 for analog voltage.
[21:15:44] <PetefromTn_andro> So each position is a separate input
[21:15:55] <Connor> that's one method.. but lots of wires..
[21:16:01] <Connor> using the resistor method.. just 2 inputs.
[21:16:17] <PetefromTn_andro> Yeah and it would eat up your inputs quickly
[21:16:35] <Connor> using resistor method is rather nice and cheaper on inputs.
[21:16:58] <zeeshan|2> maybe you can use a mux? :P
[21:17:03] <zeeshan|2> if youre running out of inputs
[21:17:24] <Connor> So, my main control will have a E-Stop, Push-To-Start, MPG, and 2 Rotary switches.
[21:17:45] <Connor> zeeshan|2: Not running out of inputs.. I just don't want to run that many wires to the control..
[21:18:06] <Connor> I'm only using like 9 inputs thus far out of the 32
[21:18:06] <zeeshan|2> its been a while since ive used a multiplexer
[21:18:10] <PetefromTn_andro> I wonder if you could use negative and positive feedback from the switch to determine one or the other axis
[21:18:10] <zeeshan|2> but isn't that the point of a mux?
[21:19:08] <zeeshan|2> basically youll just have 1 wire
[21:19:12] <zeeshan|2> for all your inputs
[21:19:20] <zeeshan|2> (im assuming theyre 5v )
[21:19:30] <PetefromTn_andro> Do you have a link to the kind of switch you are using
[21:19:41] <Connor> They're not. the E-Stop and push-to-start are 12v
[21:20:04] <Connor> PetefromTn_andro:
http://www.radioshack.com/radioshack-2-pole-6-position-rotary-switch/2750034.html
[21:20:57] <PetefromTn_andro> Hm nice and cheap I love it. This is something I would really like to do for both machines
[21:21:11] <Connor> Yea, it's really easy concept.
[21:21:49] <PetefromTn_andro> Moving between increments and axes is kind of a pain in the Keister with the keyboard
[21:22:31] <PetefromTn_andro> Flicking a rotary switches would be much easier
[21:23:01] <PetefromTn_andro> That's actually the way the original control worked on the Cincinnati
[21:24:05] <PetefromTn_andro> The lathe had a cool angled panel that had the spindle load meter on it I can put some of the stuff on .
[21:38:11] <zeeshan|2> how does the z-axis motor brake operation work
[21:38:22] <zeeshan|2> is there a hal pin you associate it with?
[21:38:40] <Connor_iPad> Normally handled by the driver.
[21:38:46] <zeeshan|2> hmmm
[21:39:00] <zeeshan|2> i didnt see anything related to do that on the amc manual..
[21:39:01] <zeeshan|2> ssi?
[21:44:38] <zeeshan|2> "The I- x t current limitation, which is standard to t h i s unit , oDsures optimum motor protection. It is, however, advisable to use a thermal contact provided in the motor."
[21:44:46] <zeeshan|2> i^2 xt
[21:45:08] <zeeshan|2> old driver manual says basically it has current limitation
[21:45:13] <zeeshan|2> yet still recommends using a thermal contact? :/
[22:01:53] <Tom_itx> got my pulleys in today:
http://tom-itx.ddns01.com:81/~webpage/cnc/new_pulleys/timing_pulley_index.php
[22:03:12] <Connor_iPad> How did you get the flanges back on?
[22:03:26] <Tom_itx> what flanges?
[22:03:30] <zeeshan|2> nice Tom_itx
[22:03:39] <Connor_iPad> On the pulleys.
[22:03:41] <zeeshan|2> what size did you end up going with
[22:03:45] <Tom_itx> i didn't take them off
[22:03:58] <Tom_itx> 44 on the large one 36? on the small
[22:04:06] <zeeshan|2> i mean pitch
[22:04:08] <zeeshan|2> and series
[22:04:09] <Tom_itx> gives me about 5200 rpm
[22:04:11] <zeeshan|2> gt series?
[22:04:15] <Tom_itx> 3mm GT2
[22:04:18] <Tom_itx> 9mm wide
[22:04:31] <Connor_iPad> Oh. Took mine off to get better concentric with pulley teeth.
[22:04:36] <zeeshan|2> works okay?
[22:04:42] <Tom_itx> works good
[22:05:07] <Tom_itx> i think the motor bearings are getting tired though
[22:06:15] <Tom_itx> Connor, i put a dowel pin in the hole and aligned it in the lathe with a last word indicator
[22:06:28] <Tom_itx> gripping from the flange side
[22:06:44] <Connor_iPad> 4 jaw?
[22:06:45] <Tom_itx> so the hole was dead nuts centered
[22:06:47] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:06:49] <zeeshan|2> you sir
[22:06:50] <zeeshan|2> need this!
[22:07:06] <zeeshan|2> wait what
[22:07:14] <zeeshan|2> i read that wrong :P
[22:07:53] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: when you were machining it
[22:07:59] <zeeshan|2> did you notice the chips are weird?
[22:08:06] <zeeshan|2> its a weird hard material.
[22:08:11] <Tom_itx> no not really
[22:08:16] <zeeshan|2> yours are steel right?
[22:08:20] <Tom_itx> aluminum
[22:08:22] <zeeshan|2> oh
[22:08:25] <Connor_iPad> It's cast
[22:08:39] <Connor_iPad> Cast alumn machined a little differently.
[22:08:40] <zeeshan|2> mine are powdered steel
[22:08:45] <Tom_itx> probably extruded
[22:08:47] <zeeshan|2> it was weird to machine
[22:09:05] <zeeshan|2> ive done tons of cast al machining before
[22:09:10] <zeeshan|2> its pretty much same as regular al
[22:09:15] <zeeshan|2> if anything regular al is harder
[22:09:28] <zeeshan|2> intercooler end tanks, engine blocks, intake manifolds
[22:09:30] <zeeshan|2> mostly cast al
[22:09:59] <zeeshan|2> this powedered steel really got the drill bits hot
[22:10:06] <zeeshan|2> cause i was using mild steel speeds
[22:11:07] <Tom_itx> sorta like machining oilite?
[22:11:17] <zeeshan|2> havent machined oilite
[22:11:34] <Tom_itx> well ya really don't want to
[22:11:35] <zeeshan|2> id compare it to machining through a weld in stainless
[22:12:17] <Tom_itx> well hopefully i won't wear out so damn many belts now
[22:13:09] <Tom_itx> the rpm seems to be pretty close to what it was
[22:21:22] <Connor> pcw pcw_home: In the manuals for both the 7i76 and 7i77, TB2 Pins 6 and 7 are marked NC. But... I threw my ohm meter on them.. and they ohm out to ground. (which is what I need.. need more connections to ground).
[22:21:39] <Connor> can you confirm that they are indeed ground.. and not NC as the manual states ?
[23:25:42] <zeeshan|2> connor
[23:25:45] <zeeshan|2> since youre working on this kind of..
[23:25:57] <zeeshan|2> i'm confused when looking at the 7i77 manual when it comes to analog signal wiring
[23:26:01] <zeeshan|2> i dont see how you can run it in differential mode
[23:26:39] <zeeshan|2> i see ena0- ena0+ which you use for enabling
[23:26:41] <zeeshan|2> and then a gnd
[23:26:44] <zeeshan|2> and then aout0
[23:26:53] <zeeshan|2> wouldnt there be 2 wires for aout if it was differential
[23:27:04] <zeeshan|2> it seems like its a single ended signal
[23:27:43] <zeeshan|2> unless aout0 -> +REF
[23:27:50] <zeeshan|2> and gnd -> -REF
[23:34:29] <Connor> ena0- is for differential
[23:34:46] <Connor> only to be used if your driver supports differential input.
[23:35:32] <zeeshan|2> hm
[23:35:40] <Connor> your driver doesn't have a direction pin.. so you'll use ref- and ref+ for the analog +-10v
[23:35:42] <zeeshan|2> where do you see that in the manual
[23:38:40] <Connor> give me a minute.
[23:40:10] <Connor> link to that pdf manual for your driver.
[23:41:00] <zeeshan|2> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/manual/AMC_AnalogDrives_InstallManual.pdf
[23:41:09] <zeeshan|2> page 36
[23:43:00] <Connor> Okay. AOUT0 to +REF, GND to -REF
[23:43:14] <zeeshan|2> that puts it in single ended mode no?
[23:43:24] <Connor> It's analog
[23:43:42] <zeeshan|2> i'm confused :{
[23:43:48] <zeeshan|2> if you put -ref to ground
[23:43:52] <Connor> 7i77 not setup for differential mode with the analog
[23:43:56] <zeeshan|2> is that still concisdered ifferential?
[23:43:59] <zeeshan|2> okay
[23:44:02] <zeeshan|2> so you cant do ifferential then
[23:44:11] <Connor> you can on the Enable though
[23:44:15] <zeeshan|2> yes
[23:44:53] <Connor> Errr... Wait.
[23:44:57] <Connor> No.
[23:45:34] <Connor> Check with PCW in the morning to find out if ENA- is GROUND or differential.
[23:46:07] <Connor> and looking.. your driver does the stupid thing where +5v to enable.
[23:46:11] <Connor> like mine..
[23:46:31] <Connor> err.. +5 to inhibit.
[23:48:16] <Connor> Okay. Got it..
[23:49:05] <Connor> No. I don't.. ask PWM.
[23:49:20] <Connor> something is a bit odd with the wording and the way yours is setup.
[23:50:19] <zeeshan|2> no
[23:50:24] <zeeshan|2> you gotta read the fine note on the bottom
[23:50:27] <zeeshan|2> mine is the -inv version
[23:50:40] <zeeshan|2> so you ground the enable pin to energize the drive
[23:52:14] <zeeshan|2> ena- is differential
[23:52:23] <zeeshan|2> im looking at logs from pcw earlier yesterday
[23:57:32] <renesis> zeeshan|2: just because its diff input doesnt mean you have to drive it differentially
[23:57:40] <zeeshan|2> renesis: i know
[23:57:54] <zeeshan|2> differential is supperior to single ended though
[23:58:00] <zeeshan|2> wish it could be driven differentially
[23:58:06] <renesis> right but that doesnt mean single ended doesnt work
[23:58:06] <zeeshan|2> =/
[23:58:13] <zeeshan|2> renesis: you dont think i know that??
[23:58:21] <zeeshan|2> how do you think the cnc lathe is working?
[23:58:26] <zeeshan|2> :P
[23:58:30] <renesis> all of broadcast uses single ended for audio with bnc connectors =(
[23:58:45] <zeeshan|2> modbus is run over differential serial
[23:58:49] <zeeshan|2> and ive had 0 issues with noise
[23:58:56] <zeeshan|2> that cable runs right next to the vfd motor cables
[23:58:57] <zeeshan|2> haha
[23:59:12] <os1r1s> zeeshan|2: Do you know of a cheap modbus interface?
[23:59:17] <renesis> yeah balanced stuff is neat
[23:59:38] <zeeshan|2> os1r1s: you mean a serial to rs485 converter?
