#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-09-30

[00:05:17] <ssi> roycroft: so far I'm not impressed :)
[00:08:47] <roycroft> what's not impressive?
[00:09:22] <ssi> vmware fusion
[00:09:28] <roycroft> yes, but what about it?
[00:09:53] <ssi> trying to install win7 in a vm, and it's so slow that the mouse pointer lags 30 seconds behind, which makes it nigh impossible to use
[00:10:34] <ssi> the little spinny balls turns into the windows logo animation when the installer starts
[00:10:39] <ssi> takes about five minutes to complete the animation
[00:11:08] <roycroft> perhaps you don't have enough resources allocated for the vm
[00:11:24] <ssi> 4 cores, 4G ram
[00:11:24] <roycroft> i give a vm 4 cores and 8GB for win7/solidworks
[00:11:26] <ssi> how much does it need?
[00:11:27] <roycroft> hmm
[00:11:30] <ssi> heh
[00:11:35] <roycroft> did you install vmware tools?
[00:11:42] <roycroft> that really speeds things up
[00:11:43] <ssi> I can't install vmware tools before I install windows!
[00:11:48] <roycroft> right
[00:11:56] <ssi> it's literally still running the startup animation
[00:11:58] <ssi> before the installer
[00:12:04] <roycroft> i just did a win8.1 install tonight to test some stuff
[00:12:12] <roycroft> it took about 15 minutes for the complete install
[00:12:14] <ssi> does win8.1 run sw worth a crap?
[00:12:25] <roycroft> which involved more reboots than i imagined possible
[00:12:26] <roycroft> i have no idea
[00:12:35] <roycroft> i'm trying to sell this stupid plotter
[00:12:47] <roycroft> and everyone who looks at it runs autocad 2014/win8.1
[00:12:51] <roycroft> so i installed win8.1
[00:12:52] <ssi> something must be horribly wrong
[00:13:04] <roycroft> and i'm going to install autocad 2014
[00:13:08] <roycroft> and make the plotter work
[00:13:11] <ssi> it's still on the "starting windows" animation
[00:13:20] <roycroft> something indeed is terribly wrong
[00:13:35] <ssi> vmware-vmx is consuming 180% cpu
[00:14:02] <ssi> ok lemme shut everything down and reboot
[00:14:11] <ssi> I guess when you use windows in a product that's written by windows people
[00:14:15] <ssi> you have to run your computer like a windows person
[00:14:17] <ssi> :(
[00:14:50] <roycroft> it's consuming 10% of cpu on my mbp at the moment
[00:15:02] <ssi> this is not a small machine
[00:15:14] <ssi> i7 quad-ht, 16g ram, ssd
[00:15:15] <roycroft> you've given it enough cores and ram to do the job well
[00:15:37] <ssi> and it's making the whole machine unusable
[00:15:42] <roycroft> and you're using a recent version of fusion?
[00:15:47] <ssi> just downloaded it
[00:15:47] <roycroft> like 6.x at least
[00:15:49] <ssi> 7 trial
[00:15:51] <roycroft> and hopefully 7
[00:16:05] <roycroft> 7 is incredibly lean and fast on my mbp
[00:16:10] <roycroft> it's way faster than 6
[00:16:12] <ssi> what osx are you on
[00:16:16] <roycroft> mavericks
[00:16:22] <ssi> yea but which one
[00:16:25] <ssi> I'm on 10.9.5
[00:16:25] <roycroft> 10.9.2
[00:16:28] <ssi> and just updated last night
[00:16:29] <roycroft> i need to upgrade
[00:16:34] <ssi> and after that, parallels forced me to update
[00:16:38] <ssi> when I updated, it went to shit
[00:16:38] <roycroft> weird
[00:16:53] <roycroft> mayhap i should hold off on updating for a bit
[00:16:57] <ssi> yeah maybe
[00:17:00] <anarchos2> well thats enough for tonight....kinda got the tool probe working :)
[00:17:00] <ssi> ok brb rebootin
[00:17:31] <anarchos2> it freaks out and throws errors when it's activated, but at least the computers reading it/gmoccapy is attempting to use it
[00:22:48] <ssi> back
[00:27:42] <ssi> roycroft: seems to be working better now
[00:31:00] <roycroft> good
[00:50:42] <ssi> ugh
[00:50:50] <ssi> it requires me to have an absurd amount of free disk space
[00:51:30] <ssi> keeps pausing the vm and asking me to free space
[00:51:57] <ssi> I'm fighting a losing battle here :(
[00:54:58] <roycroft> i had that problem with windows 8
[00:55:01] <roycroft> it's not a vmware thing, i think
[00:55:04] <roycroft> it's a windows thing
[00:55:14] <roycroft> i had to create a 60GB vm for windows to install
[00:55:31] <roycroft> post installation it had consumed a bit over 8GB of disk
[00:55:53] <roycroft> windows 7 doesn't do that
[00:56:37] <ssi> I created a 32G vm, and it's like 16G on disk right now
[00:56:48] <ssi> but my free space while it's running is fluctuating up and down wildly
[00:56:51] <ssi> like 16-20g
[00:56:55] <ssi> and I don't have much space
[00:56:58] <ssi> I'm on a 250G ssd
[00:57:12] <roycroft> i'm fortunate to have a 1TB ssd
[00:57:21] <ssi> I'm thinking about buying oe
[00:57:23] <roycroft> and i've only had this computer since this summer
[00:57:23] <ssi> they're down to $400
[00:57:29] <roycroft> so i haven't had time to fill it up completely yet
[00:58:11] <roycroft> the autocad installation is almost done
[00:58:25] <ssi> argh now I have to go through the whole windows update BS
[00:58:29] <ssi> solidworks won't install on SP0
[00:58:34] <roycroft> that plotter is in my shop
[00:58:37] <ssi> I'm probably actually better off just downloading an SP1 iso
[00:58:41] <roycroft> and i'm not going out there this late at night to test it
[00:58:44] <roycroft> i'll do that tomorrow
[01:29:09] <ssi> rgh
[01:29:27] <roycroft> dammit
[01:29:35] <roycroft> these people really are morons
[01:29:51] <roycroft> i can go into autocad 2014, set up plotter, and that plotter is listed under hp
[01:30:01] <roycroft> it's just clickity click click click and it's done
[01:31:35] <Jymmm> the sound of a tommy gun?
[01:31:48] <ssi> solidworks installer is being stupid
[01:31:49] <roycroft> i thought i was going to actually have to do something interesting to make it work
[01:32:04] <roycroft> which is why i went to the trouble of installing win8.1 and acad2014 in a vm
[01:32:37] <ssi> my favorite part about windows software is when it refuses to do anything, so you close it, and then it goes into a "closing" state for an equal eternity
[01:33:18] <roycroft> i know next to nothing about windows, except how much i hate it
[01:33:29] <ssi> same here
[01:33:35] <roycroft> so if i can install and configure this stuff wit no trouble it must not be that difficult to do
[01:33:52] <ssi> you're luckier than me apparently
[01:34:09] <roycroft> now i'm going to try to install a windows print driver for the plotter
[01:34:44] <roycroft> although if these people are using autocad2014, i don't see why they need a windows driver if acad can talk to the plotter directly
[01:37:11] <Connor> gotta love windows.. NOT
[01:37:19] <ssi> it actively makes me angry
[01:38:06] <Connor> I run ubuntu with vmware and Virtual Box both for different windows crap.
[01:39:34] <ssi> there it goes pausing again for disk space
[01:39:39] <ssi> I have 8G free, and it's pausing
[01:41:05] <roycroft> yeah, that requires going out to the shop and stringing a cable
[01:41:07] <roycroft> a task for tomorrow
[01:41:20] <roycroft> all i'm trying to do is sell this bloody plotter
[01:41:29] <Connor> Umm. If it's a vm drive.. it may need to allocate more space.. as it continues..
[01:41:32] <roycroft> i never thought it would be that much work
[01:41:43] <ssi> yeah but it doesn't
[01:41:47] <ssi> it just wants me to have a ton of free space
[01:41:58] <roycroft> vmware fusion by default likes to allocate the virtual disk in 2GB chunks
[01:42:06] <roycroft> you fill one up, it creates another one
[01:42:36] <ssi> I wonder if windows is doing something stupid like writing to a virtual mem file
[01:42:39] <Connor> ssi: You figure out the transport of your VMC ?
[01:42:46] <ssi> which is causing fusion to try to thrash my thin disk
[01:42:52] <ssi> Connor: yeah more or less
[01:43:01] <ssi> step 1: give dude in KY all my dollars
[01:43:05] <Connor> Do tell
[01:43:05] <ssi> step 2: hope everything goes smoothly
[01:43:23] <Connor> rofl
[01:43:35] <ssi> step 3: if he actually tells me when it's due to arrive, I will schedule a 12klb lift with 8' forks to be delivered
[01:43:49] <ssi> step 4: put on my osha-compliant steel-toed flip-flops and unload the bastard
[01:44:11] <Connor> How much is it gonna cost you ?
[01:44:22] <ssi> $850 for freight, $350 for the lift, and $250 for lift delivery
[01:44:35] <ssi> so ~$1500
[01:44:41] <Connor> and why was pete linking a Cincinnati 500 motor?
[01:44:51] <ssi> we were talking to KimK about spindle orient
[01:45:03] <ssi> and discussing what type of motor and drive it was
[01:45:13] <Connor> the ebay link ?
[01:45:20] <ssi> ebay link is same as pete's motor
[01:45:28] <ssi> had pictures of the dataplate
[01:45:36] <Connor> ah. okay. KimK have anything to say about it ?
[01:45:55] <ssi> yeah, with sensorless vector drive we can probably do ok, but not to expect it to work great
[01:46:00] <ssi> said it'd be better to have a true vector drive
[01:46:03] <ssi> ie servo
[01:46:24] <Connor> so, how the heck did it work before ?
[01:46:37] <ssi> did the old spindle drive have feedback directly from the resolver?
[01:46:59] <Connor> I have no idea of the drive did or just the controller..
[01:47:10] <ssi> well if so, that's how
[01:47:42] <roycroft> i just plugged the thing in anyway
[01:47:49] <roycroft> i decided i want this done tonight
[01:47:52] <ssi> hahaha
[01:47:55] <ssi> DO IT
[01:47:56] <Connor> So, what does that mean in the end... it may not work?
[01:48:22] <Connor> His drive CAN take in encoder info.. but only A and B.. Not index... so, I'm not sure what good that'll do
[01:48:47] <ssi> I dunno
[01:48:49] <ssi> it's worth a shot
[01:49:04] <ssi> ugh wtf solidworks
[01:49:09] <ssi> why have you forsaken me
[01:49:36] <Connor> I DO know we need to get his spindle under closed loop control..
[01:49:55] <Connor> so that the orient.9 can use it with PID
[01:50:03] <ssi> yes
[01:50:08] <ssi> start there, definitely
[01:50:25] <ssi> if you can easily get the encoder to the drive, do that as well
[01:50:44] <Connor> that'll require a extra part from mesanet
[01:50:49] <ssi> what part?
[01:50:56] <Connor> let me find it..brb
[01:52:27] <Connor> ENCY  Encoder Y adapter
[01:53:23] <Connor>  The ENCY is a quadrature encoder signal spiltter that allows tapping onto encoder signals without compromising signal integrity.
[01:53:23] <Connor>  The ENCY can also be used as a re-driver. The ENCY has a single encoder input connector which will accept TTL or differential inputs, and two sets of differential encoder outputs. Status LEDs are provided for power, index and quadrature state. The quadrature state LEDs also provide a simple visual way to test quadrature connections.
[01:53:27] <ssi> yea got it
[01:53:29] <ssi> how much is it
[01:54:01] <Connor> $15.00
[01:54:04] <ssi> that's not bad
[01:55:35] <Connor> YEA. Not too bad.
[01:56:11] <Connor> other option might be some sort of simple hardware based stop.
[01:56:33] <ssi> neither of us is particularly happy with that
[01:56:40] <ssi> the damn machine did it electronically before
[01:56:44] <ssi> it should be able to do it again
[01:56:47] <Connor> my biggest concern is, it won't stop in the exactly same spot every time.
[01:56:53] <Connor> I agree.
[01:57:01] <ssi> well here's the thing
[01:57:08] <ssi> we have an encoder, so we know exactly where it is
[01:57:11] <ssi> it may not stop there every time
[01:57:16] <ssi> but worst case, we can try again
[01:57:25] <Connor> right.
[01:57:49] <Connor> and I hope running the drive via modbus doesn't cause too much issue either..
[01:58:37] <ssi> how in the burning fuck you do disconnect from the network in win7
[01:58:59] <ssi> the UX in win7 is bloody awful
[01:59:20] <Connor> Disable the adapter ?
[01:59:34] <archivist> win7 is trivial, wait till you get lost in 8
[01:59:44] <Connor> win 8 blows.
[01:59:48] <ssi> I refuse
[01:59:51] <Connor> okay. time for bed
[02:03:09] <ssi> I don't know if vmware is gonna let me do this
[02:03:20] <ssi> sw wants to install 6G worth of crap on the vm disk, and I have 10G free on the real disk
[02:06:54] <ssi> yep, there it goes
[02:06:59] <ssi> goddammit that's a very inconvenient feature
[02:23:45] <Deejay__> moin
[06:35:14] <Balu_> Wow. I didn't expect the channel to be this crowded :)
[06:38:18] <ulaB> I read everywhere that LinuxCNC is based on Ubuntu, but the 2.6 I downloaded is a Debian based version. Did I get the wrong one or was the base changed?
[06:42:08] <skunkworks> the latest livecd is based on debian wheezy
[06:44:12] <ulaB> skunkworks: guessed so, thanks. I was just confused because it mentions Ubuntu everywhere and mine was different :)
[06:44:41] <skunkworks> the last 2 livecds where based on ubuntu - yes
[06:44:47] <skunkworks> (atleast)
[06:45:40] <skunkworks> I think there are packages for precise.. (if you want to go that route) but you would have to install ubuntu and then install ubuntu
[06:45:48] <skunkworks> *linuxcnc
[06:46:01] <skunkworks> (still working on my first cup_
[06:46:38] <ulaB> I'm just starting to look around, but do you have a hint on where to look for the timing setup I should use for my Longs Motors DM542A drivers?
[06:48:43] <skunkworks> ulaB, http://www.linuxcnc.org/lucid/index.php/english/forum/16-stepconf-wizard/27036-longs-motor-nema-23-34-42-step-timespacedir
[06:49:48] <ulaB> skunkworks: Ah, thanks.
[06:49:59] <skunkworks> Google foo...
[06:53:16] <ulaB> I tried searching the forums directly, but didn't find that information...
[06:54:46] <skunkworks> what are you building?
[06:57:18] <jthornton> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
[07:03:38] <jdh> do you have the manual or data sheet that came with the drivers?
[07:09:46] <ulaB> jthornton: It doesn't list the DM542A there. But the DQ542MA from Wantai look exactly the same. Probably just a rebrand like the forum page said.
[07:10:14] <ulaB> At the moment I'm just playing around with the electronics.
[07:11:17] <ulaB> jdh: Nope. The manufacturer page had some information, but no timing: http://www.longs-motor.com/productinfo/detail_12_80_131.aspx
[07:12:03] <ulaB> skunkworks_: I'm thinking about building a standard CNC router setup with a drag knife to cut foamboard
[07:12:20] <skunkworks_> neat
[07:14:10] <ulaB> So before starting with that I decided to play around with the electronics first and stumbled over a 4 axis Nema23 kit on ebay. The 425 oz.in dual-shaft stepper motors are probably a little overkill though =)
[07:39:19] <archivist> overkill helps when you fing you need more force
[07:45:57] <skunkworks_> I think 425's are a nice size.. not too big and not too small :)
[07:46:41] <ulaB> I don't have the experience yet but they just felt way heavier and were a lot bigger than I expected :)
[07:56:18] <ulaB> Just putting the old pc I've found with LPT port through the latency test. glxgears, Iceweasel running CanvasMark2013 and "find / -type f md5sum {} \;"
[07:56:56] <archivist> production gears :) http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_09_30_Ford_speedo_gears/IMG_1841.JPG
[07:59:07] <ulaB> archivist: molded?
[07:59:37] <archivist> the broken one was, the replacement are cut
[08:00:11] <archivist> hmm should I gimp out the dust http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_09_30_Ford_speedo_gears/IMG_1839.JPG
[08:00:34] <archivist> the arbor shaft is 2mm
[08:04:43] <ulaB> Hm. max. Jitter 205196... Looks like I need to tune this old PC.
[08:05:39] <malcom2073> Hah wow, that's impressive
[08:07:22] <archivist> tune/throw away, certainly look at the video card
[08:08:10] <ulaB> It's a DualCore P4, 3.2 GHz with 1G RAM that was standing around in the basement =)
[08:09:10] <ulaB> Most modern ones don't have LPT anymore :-/
[08:09:22] <archivist> if it have nvidia then changes it and try again
[08:09:29] <archivist> have/has
[08:10:55] <archivist> embedded video can be a time hog, better with an adapter card
[08:11:43] <ulaB> according to lspci it's an AMD ATI RV530 (Radeon X1600)
[08:12:47] <ulaB> Does LinuxCNC support other interfaces like ethernet? USB won't work either as far as I read?
[08:13:06] <archivist> ethernet is just being tested
[08:13:35] <archivist> usb has long dead periods (device discovery)
[08:13:55] <ulaB> ok, so for now the better idea would be to get an LPT card and plug it into a modern PC?
[08:14:03] <malcom2073> ulaB: mesa!
[08:14:04] <archivist> best option is a pci fpga card
[08:14:38] <malcom2073> yeah, a fpga card lets you use a modern pc so you don't run into graphic/system lagging issues, while still giving you a fast step clock
[08:15:09] <archivist> his current box is fast enough
[08:15:45] <ulaB> malcom2073: mesa?
[08:15:59] <archivist> check if it has any power management enabled
[08:22:05] <ulaB> ACPI Aware O/S was on, disabled. Hyperthreading is bad for RT too, right?
[08:24:09] <ulaB> Also disabled "Enhanced C1 Control" (C1E)
[08:24:50] <malcom2073> ulaB: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Mesa_Cards but really archivist is right, I'm sure your PC can do what you need without that heh
[08:29:06] <skunkworks_> archivist: that doesn
[08:29:15] <skunkworks_> archivist: that doesn't look like hobbing...
[08:29:38] <archivist> they sure are hobbed :)
[08:30:03] <archivist> how the blank is cut http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_09_23_Barber_Colman_speedo_gears/IMG_1832.JPG
[08:30:05] <ulaB> hm. still 200us :-/
[08:30:53] <skunkworks_> archivist: awesome! did you get the bugs worked out?
[08:31:26] <skunkworks_> heh - looks like the blank is mounted on a spade drill
[08:31:52] <archivist> the blanks in order of cutting http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_09_28_Ford_speedo_gears/IMG_1836.JPG
[08:32:22] <archivist> I decided the error was small enough for the first couple
[08:33:19] <cradek> am I imagining it, or does the last one still have a twist to it?
[08:33:27] <skunkworks_> so the slight twist is getting less and less?
[08:33:32] <archivist> yes still has some twist
[08:34:19] <archivist> that being the error, spent some time adjusting and measuring to get it a bit tighter
[08:35:03] <archivist> first really bad ones are vfd noise
[08:36:03] <FinboySlick> archivist: I was under the impression that you were using steppers on this.
[08:36:09] <archivist> I am
[08:36:53] <FinboySlick> OK, but not on the tool spindle.
[08:37:01] <archivist> vfd drives the main 3 phase spindle motor, then an encoder reads that position
[08:39:00] <ulaB> With glxgears and a HTML5 Canvas demo I get a max jitter of ~35us. It's the file system stuff that makes it go up
[08:40:07] <ulaB> just the "find / -type f" results in 200us Jitter
[08:40:38] <archivist> ew nasty
[08:55:25] <PetefromTn_> Morning folks
[08:56:44] <ulaB> Morning? It's 15:37 here =)
[08:56:57] <skunkworks_> miller time!
[09:00:09] <FinboySlick> ulaB: Does your board only support sata? I had a buggy sata controller on mine, switched to ide and moved everything under 10us.
[09:00:13] <archivist> coffee and contemplation time
[09:02:38] <PetefromTn_> well it's morning here at least for now heh
[09:11:45] <ulaB> FinboySlick: hehe I was just out, looking for an IDE HDD :)
[09:12:11] <ulaB> BTW: mainboard is an Asus P5LD2/S
[09:18:44] <FinboySlick> ulaB: Well, it's not the same crappy sata chipset as what I had, but mine was also an asus.
[09:19:08] <SpeedEvil> Change the s to an n, what do you have? Asun!
[09:20:13] <pcw_home> Many brand new MBs have built in LPT
[09:20:15] <pcw_home> (usually on a header rather then the back panel)
[09:21:13] <FinboySlick> SpeedEvil: Being a native french speaker, I don't even need to change a letter. Asus is pronounced pretty much the same as "À suce", which translates to: "She sucks."
[09:21:36] <SpeedEvil> :)
[09:22:07] <SpeedEvil> pcw_home: including some 'all in one' fanless cheap motherboards, hich seem quite a good match
[09:22:16] <ulaB> Which doesn't have to be a bad thing... :o)
[09:46:18] <pcw_home> SpeedEvil: yes Ive been testing the Biostar A68N-5000, its cheap and it works well with no tweaks with the wheezy ISO
[09:51:23] <JT-Shop> does the 5i25 work with a PCI Express 2.0 x 16 slot?
[09:52:16] <ulaB> With IDE I still get 140 us Jitter. Will have to play around with the hardware and bios a little more...
[09:52:45] <ssi> JT-Shop: no, but the 6i25 should
[09:53:29] <ssi> PetefromTn_: https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/1965665_10100489081559142_7923059175029995843_o.jpg
[09:54:02] <skunkworks_> JT-Shop, no.. but I think there is a pciE version of the 5i25
[09:55:00] <pcw_home> 6I25 is PCIE version of 5I25
[09:55:01] <pcw_home> Usually x16 slots work but sometimes Bioses dont support 1 lane cards in 16 lane slots
[09:55:03] <pcw_home> (even though the PCIE spec says the must)
[09:55:30] <pcw_home> (mainly older MBs have this issue)
[09:56:12] <zeeshan|2> one good question i got asked which i dont know if i answered right was: if you can buy 4 flute end mills center cutting, why would you ever buy non-center cutting 4 flute end mills?
[09:56:18] <zeeshan|2> i said they're harder to re-grind?
[09:56:21] <zeeshan|2> :P
[09:56:23] <PetefromTn_> ssi looking good man
[09:56:24] <JT-Shop> so the Biostar A68N-5000 works with the 6i25?
[09:56:25] <zeeshan|2> any clues?
[09:56:27] <ssi> PetefromTn_: :)
[09:56:51] <PetefromTn_> maybe you can make me a custom soft top for my bronco when I pop the hard roof off LOL
[09:57:14] <pcw_home> It might... Ill try later today since I happen to have both
[09:57:30] <JT-Shop> thanks
[10:00:02] <PetefromTn_> http://www.supermotors.org/getfile.php?id=124314&toggle=fullsize&f=softfirstwindowless.jpg ;)
[10:00:43] <ulaB> got to go, thanks for your suggestions, guys.
[10:00:51] <PetefromTn_> http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/283593/fullsize/8-lug-poser.jpg%20alt= :p
[10:01:51] <zeeshan|2> ssi
[10:01:55] <zeeshan|2> i got x axis working at 200 ipm
[10:02:04] <zeeshan|2> i had the acceleration up too high
[10:02:06] <zeeshan|2> thats why it was stalling
[10:02:38] <zeeshan|2> i wonder if there is a way to setup acceleration without trial and error :P
[10:06:04] <skunkworks_> bump up acceleration untill it starts stalling - back off 20%
[10:06:23] <zeeshan|2> im trying to figure out what acceleration changes
[10:06:41] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt482/slyt482.pdf
[10:06:44] <zeeshan|2> reading that tech paper
[10:06:48] <zeeshan|2> looks promising :)
[10:11:15] <zeeshan|2> when linuxcnc sends out one pulse to the stepper driver, and the stepper driver is set to 1/4 microstep
[10:11:24] <zeeshan|2> and using 1.8 deg full step motors
[10:11:35] <zeeshan|2> that 1 pulse would yield a 1.8/4 step?
[10:11:49] <zeeshan|2> 0.45 deg
[10:12:08] <pcw_home> yep so 800 steps/turn
[10:12:32] <pcw_home> 8KHz at 600 RPM
[10:13:43] <zeeshan|2> why do you have to tell stepconf the number of microsteps?
[10:14:17] <pcw_home> because stepconf helps with the calculations
[10:14:35] <zeeshan|2> i'm confusing myself haha
[10:14:37] <JT-Shop> you don't, you can put any numbers that add up to steps per user unit
[10:14:58] <JT-Shop> anyone have a grinder similar to this? http://www.trick-tools.com/Multitool_2_x_36_inch_1_hp_Belt_Grinder_Bundle_MT362_100_Bundle_4311#.VCrD1tewehc
[10:16:01] <zeeshan|2> does this make sense: im moving 1" of travel and i have full step configured in stepconf, then linuxcnc will send 400 pulses to the stepper driver
[10:16:32] <zeeshan|2> but if i am moving 1" of travel and now have 1/4 step configured in stepconf, then linuxcnc will send 800 pulses to the stepper driver
[10:16:58] <zeeshan|2> meaning the wave form will be tighter for the 1/4 step case?
[10:17:05] <pcw_home> yes (but 200 and 800)
[10:17:30] <zeeshan|2> why i am askling all this is
[10:17:40] <zeeshan|2> i want to know the maximum steps that can be generated
[10:17:47] <zeeshan|2> w/ a par port for my situation
[10:19:01] <pcw_home> depends on you latency
[10:19:27] <zeeshan|2> im around 4500 ns for servothread
[10:19:33] <zeeshan|2> and like 7000ns for base
[10:20:04] <pcw_home> what base thread rate are you currently using?
[10:20:49] <zeeshan|2> i dont know :P
[10:21:08] <zeeshan|2> ill check
[10:21:23] <pcw_home> its in your .ini file
[10:26:52] <zeeshan|2> whoops didnt see your message
[10:27:20] <zeeshan|2> i did find this out: step time , space = 3000 , direction hold, step = 7000 , baseperiod jit 11000
[10:27:32] <zeeshan|2> gives me a max frequency of 45454Hz
[10:28:45] <zeeshan|2> so this means the smallest period of the wave can be 1/45454 = 0.000022s = 22ms
[10:29:00] <pcw_home> 22 us
[10:29:25] <zeeshan|2> i dont know why i wrote ms
[10:29:30] <pcw_home> if you use the reset option
[10:29:51] <pcw_home> 44 usec otherwise
[10:30:05] <zeeshan|2> what's the reset option
[10:30:11] <pcw_home> man stepgen
[10:31:40] <zeeshan|2> so using 44 us
[10:31:57] <zeeshan|2> how do i determine ipm? :P
[10:32:45] <zeeshan|2> nm
[10:32:48] <zeeshan|2> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Stepper_Motor_Speed_Limitations
[10:33:20] <pcw_home> you enable reset mode by setting stepspace to 0
[10:34:11] <zeeshan|2> yea its in step/dir mode
[10:34:29] <zeeshan|2> so its set to 0 and it means 44us
[10:36:02] <pcw_home> 22 us minimum period if stepspace is 0, 44 usec minimum period if stepspace <> 0
[10:36:27] <zeeshan|2> oh
[10:36:43] <zeeshan|2> im in step/dir mode for the drivers
[10:36:56] <zeeshan|2> so its set to 0
[10:37:17] <pcw_home> you said stepspace was 3000 above
[10:37:40] <zeeshan|2> man im so stupid
[10:37:51] <zeeshan|2> im looking at stepgen step_type = 0
[10:37:54] <zeeshan|2> not step space.
[10:37:57] <zeeshan|2> step space is 3000
[10:38:22] <pcw_home> yeah so you may be able to go a bit faster by setting stepspace to 0
[10:38:23] <zeeshan|2> so it is 44.
[10:38:34] <zeeshan|2> i dont know if the stepper drive will ike that
[10:38:41] <zeeshan|2> its the kl8056
[10:38:42] <zeeshan|2> d
[10:39:57] <zeeshan|2> "dir must be ahead of pul active ahead by 5us"
[10:40:03] <zeeshan|2> pulse width not less than 2.5us
[10:40:09] <zeeshan|2> low level width no less than 2.5 us
[10:40:54] <zeeshan|2> so i can make it 2500
[10:41:06] <zeeshan|2> doh
[10:44:20] <pcw_home> you _can_ set stepspace to 0 since the time between 3 usec pulses will be 22-3 -=19 usec
[10:44:39] <pcw_home> (well +- jitter)
[10:44:54] <pcw_home> worth a try in any case
[11:08:14] <jdh> z: http://tinyurl.com/mbfobat
[11:18:15] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: i just checked my hal stepspace was 0
[11:18:17] <zeeshan|2> in it
[11:18:25] <zeeshan|2> jdh wrong kit to buy
[11:18:29] <zeeshan|2> i need a different one for the mill
[11:20:17] <zeeshan|2> my Z axis is set to 1/4 step, 1:1 drive ratio, max ipm 250. and it works without losing steps
[11:21:03] <zeeshan|2> for my X axis it was 1/4 step: 3:1 drive ratio, max ipm 100 (doesnt loose steps) but at 120 ipm it'll lose steps
[11:21:14] <zeeshan|2> so i set it to 1/2 step: 3:1 drive ratio, max ipm 120 ipm
[11:21:17] <zeeshan|2> and it still loses steps?
[11:21:41] <zeeshan|2> what changeD!!
[11:24:22] <zeeshan|2> seems to be that 100 ipm is the magic number for X.
[11:25:59] <archivist> dont forget the acceleration rate
[11:32:35] <Rab> Anybody know of a common "test pattern" for characterizing router backlash, etc? I've just been plotting circles and squares, wondering if there's a standard.
[11:33:31] <PetefromTn_> http://www.cronsrud.com/videos/circle_diamond_square_test.html#.VCrWy_ldVCY
[11:34:13] <Rab> Cool, thanks!
[11:34:23] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[11:34:28] <archivist> Rab, or some form of active measurement, dti/scales etc
[11:36:19] <DaViruz> i don't see that that test proves anything? the points that coincide will always coincide regardless of backlash, no?
[11:36:50] <archivist> the circle will shoe errors
[11:36:55] <archivist> show
[11:36:57] <Rab> I think it depends on the toolpath.
[11:37:00] <DaViruz> unless you approach them from different directinos, which isn't very practical on a stepped surface like that
[11:37:25] <DaViruz> archivist: sure, but the diamond and the square
[11:38:24] <archivist> DaViruz, yes they also show squareness etc the across sides dimensions will be wrong too with backlash
[11:38:37] <DaViruz> sure, the shapes have merits on their own
[11:38:49] <DaViruz> but stacking them like that seems like a pointless exercise to me
[11:39:12] <archivist> all tests are done in one setting
[11:40:04] <archivist> you can also measure if they are actually inline with each other
[11:40:42] <DaViruz> i don't see why they would ever not be
[11:41:12] <archivist> direction you come from, cause errors too
[11:41:15] <DaViruz> at least due to backlash
[11:41:48] <DaViruz> yeah, but that is unrelated to that shape
[11:41:49] <archivist> people often miss stiction and machine spring
[11:42:14] <DaViruz> you don't neccesarily get different approach directions just because you machine a specific shape
[11:42:56] <DaViruz> well, in some cases you pretty much can, but not in that case
[11:44:13] <archivist> the programmer should be controlling(know) approach direction for full validation
[11:44:49] <DaViruz> that is posible, but the video makes no such mention
[11:46:18] <DaViruz> a useful test would be to machine two squares on top of each other in the same manner, while making sure to aproach the sides on the top one from the center always, and the sides of the bottom one from the outside always
[11:46:32] <DaViruz> if you want to test backlash.
[11:47:48] <DaViruz> though tool forces would pretty much negate it im sure
[11:57:36] <DaViruz> anyway, what i'm trying to say is that blindly copying that won't be meningful.
[12:03:09] <archivist> it is a well recognised test in qualifying machine accuracy
[12:09:03] <Connor> jdh: You there ?
[12:10:59] <jdh> sometimes
[12:11:58] <Connor> What kind of shark was that tooth from?
[12:13:05] <jdh> small brown tooth?
[12:13:15] <Connor> Yea.
[12:16:32] <Connor> We're thinking Great White...
[12:20:26] <jdh> back again... Augustiden.
[12:20:39] <jdh> it is a megalodon ancestor
[12:20:45] <Connor> Cool
[12:21:27] <Connor> Wonder how old it is..
[12:21:50] <jdh> 5-15m unless you are a fundy xtian, then it is 6,000
[12:22:06] <Connor> huh ?
[12:22:39] <jdh> normal age range for meg is 5-15million years.
[12:22:56] <jdh> angustiden woudl be on the 15 side
[12:23:23] <jdh> but, I had some xtians tell me that was impossible because the earth was only 6000 years old.
[12:23:42] <Connor> Oh. Yea.. those people..
[12:23:55] <jdh> http://www.primitivepast.com/catalog/Shark%20Teeth/Angustiden
[12:23:56] <rythmnbls> and flat as a surface plate
[12:24:21] <jdh> that was just the first mostly decent tooth I found in that bucket :)
[12:26:58] <PetefromTn_> just out of curiosity....what other freenode channels do you guys haunt?
[12:27:04] <Connor> Wife is drooling over it.. she's saying it's the coolest thing ever.
[12:27:18] <Connor> There is linuxcnc-devel
[12:27:20] <PetefromTn_> anything worth a damn?
[12:27:21] <jdh> Connor: heh, it was an ok tooth, but not special.
[12:27:23] <Jymmm> Connor: over an old tooth?
[12:27:45] <Connor> She really likes Sharks.
[12:27:59] <Jymmm> ah
[12:27:59] <jdh> I literally have 5 gallon buckets of them.
[12:28:03] <jdh> some 6+ inches
[12:28:41] <Jymmm> jdh: make necklaces, but hand Connor's wife a mop and bucket first =)
[12:28:55] <Connor> She just gasped when I told her that.
[12:29:13] <Jymmm> jdh: Make that a sump pump instead.
[12:29:50] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNOlwEH2Oi4 hehe
[12:30:16] <jdh> I sell them to a wholesaler so I don't have to deal with individual sales
[12:31:09] <Jymmm> jdh: Dude, you're killing Connor's wife there. She's already figuring out if she can get a small bucket/box of them from you and how much =)
[12:31:21] <jdh> just takes cash.
[12:31:32] <Jymmm> jdh: paypal?
[12:31:38] <jdh> sure
[12:31:53] <jdh> or tooling
[12:32:01] <PetefromTn_> or you could just go fishin'
[12:32:08] <Jymmm> jdh: Ok, so how much for a small/medium flat rate priority mail box worth?
[12:32:31] <jdh> heh... I have junk teeth and perfect teeth
[12:32:45] <PetefromTn_> better get to the dentist then
[12:32:46] <jdh> so, $30-$5000
[12:33:13] <Jymmm> jdh: What, could she get for $50 (shipped)?
[12:33:37] <jdh> https://plus.google.com/photos/112430417093824344570/albums/5680256976754560129
[12:33:54] <jdh> one nice 3-4" tooth or a whole lot of junky ones
[12:34:34] <PetefromTn_> that you holding the grouper/snappers?
[12:34:51] <Jymmm> Connor: Ok, it's all on her now =)
[12:35:29] <PetefromTn_> thats's a pretty wild DIY cascade setup man.
[12:37:00] <_methods> nice tank refill station too
[12:37:05] <_methods> you on the yellow river?
[12:37:07] <jdh> the pics at the end are the nicer ones
[12:38:24] <jdh> Pete: I'm not in any of the pics.
[12:40:06] <_methods> oh nm you live near wilmington right?
[12:40:45] <jdh> yep
[12:40:56] <_methods> yeah i'm in charleston
[12:41:05] <jdh> lots of teeth there.
[12:41:11] <PetefromTn_> damn I miss bottom fishin' for groupers and snappers...
[12:41:13] <_methods> yeah we dig em up all the time
[12:41:20] <_methods> we get bored on the wknd
[12:41:21] <jdh> but, I get them in 100ft vis, 81F water
[12:41:29] <_methods> go down to the creek by my house and dig em up
[12:41:40] <_methods> got a 5" megaladon one time
[12:41:48] <_methods> nothing like that one you had there
[12:41:49] <jdh> nice
[12:42:02] <_methods> yeah not bad for just killin time on the wknd in the shade lol
[12:42:27] <_methods> drinkin beers and shakin out teeth lol
[12:43:35] <jdh> the guy I sell to is in charleston. I stop there on the way to florida for cave diving.
[12:43:54] <_methods> yeah how much does a 5" go for now anyways?
[12:43:57] <_methods> $50-100?
[12:45:32] <jdh> depends on how good it is. all 3 points, no peeling, etc. could be $500
[12:45:37] <_methods> wow
[12:45:39] <jdh> but mostly 50-80
[12:45:47] <_methods> yeah that's what i thought lol
[12:45:57] <_methods> who you sell to?
[12:46:02] <jdh> JT
[12:46:05] <_methods> my wife probably knows 'em
[12:46:15] <_methods> she's all into metal detecting
[12:46:15] <jdh> that's what he pays. he sells for 2x or more
[12:46:31] <_methods> JT in here?
[12:49:45] <jdh> heh, no... JT's shark teeth. google
[12:49:49] <_methods> kk
[12:51:30] <Jymmm> Poor Connor, he's having to clean up all that drool... http://www.jtssharksteeth.com/huge1.JPG
[12:52:26] <jdh> that has a lot of peel
[12:52:35] <_methods> omg that website lol
[12:53:09] <Jymmm> jdh: Is the sizing width or height?
[12:53:42] <Jymmm> 6" long tooth or 6" wide tooth?
[12:54:29] <jdh> longest possible
[12:54:52] <jdh> that lookslike one of mine. how much is it?
[12:55:06] <_methods> probably like $500
[12:55:20] <_methods> looks like most of the 5"+ were over $300
[12:55:43] <_methods> crazy
[12:55:52] <_methods> guess i'm goin diggin this wknd lol
[12:56:43] <_methods> http://phys.org/news/2014-09-material-oxygen-air.html
[12:56:45] <jdh> where do you dig?
[12:56:54] <_methods> creek bed right next to my house
[12:57:08] <_methods> i got buckets full of the little ones
[12:57:11] <_methods> 1" or less
[12:58:04] <_methods> archeologist guy found a smilidon skeleton down there about 2 years ago
[12:58:49] <_methods> i run into him and his students down there diggin every once in awhile
[13:08:41] <jdh> call up jt, take your buckets over.
[13:09:03] <_methods> yeah i might have to do that
[13:09:45] <_methods> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2040419302/matchstick-the-streaming-stick-built-on-firefox-os
[13:25:10] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptUj8JRAYu8
[13:25:30] <ssi> machine will be delivered thursday morning :D
[13:39:34] <Jymmm> _methods: Yeah, the only part I liked about that, is the comical (staged) being kicked out of the store. When Moz can fix the decades only memory leaks would I then consider OS
[13:40:01] <_methods> yeah lol
[13:40:21] <_methods> mind boggling that it still does that
[13:40:40] <_methods> i can't even run pandora in firefox for more than a couple hours
[13:40:48] <_methods> it crashes it every time
[13:40:53] <Jymmm> _methods: Also, them REMOVING features annoys the fuck out of me.
[13:41:10] <_methods> that's the hip thing now
[13:41:38] <Jymmm> _methods: I like my task bar, I like being able to disable JS, I shouldn't need to search for plugins for things that were there already
[13:42:10] <_methods> calm down mozilla knows what's best for you
[13:42:18] <_methods> lol
[13:42:26] <_methods> and google
[13:42:29] <_methods> and microsoft
[13:42:51] <Jymmm> And I know what's best for them too... a bitchslap across the face followed by WTF WERE YOU THINKING?!
[13:43:28] <_methods> i'm not sure even that works
[13:43:33] <_methods> just look at blackberry
[13:43:53] <Jymmm> BB HW is good, OS Sucks
[13:44:47] <Jymmm> BB I tink killed itself on it's last release.
[13:44:50] <Jymmm> think*
[13:44:59] <_methods> they killed theirselves over and over again
[13:45:06] <_methods> cause they aren't payin attention to the users
[13:45:10] <_methods> much like mozilla
[13:45:17] <_methods> microsoft
[13:45:54] <_methods> doing too much coke on commuter flights lol
[13:46:03] <Jymmm> Eh, Wehn my BB8900 dies, I'm not going to get another one, but it's good for a backup.
[13:50:44] <Jymmm> (as long as you pull the battery that is =)
[13:52:33] <jdh> I have a 9900.
[13:52:55] <jdh> not sure wht I will do when it dies. it is a Work phone. only other choice at the moment is an iphone
[13:53:21] <Jymmm> My BB is just a backup I keep in the car.
[13:55:04] <Jymmm> I carry a 5" android, cause I can't stand scrolling to see something on an iphone.
[13:55:23] <Jymmm> zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out,
[14:02:31] <mozmck> So what browser do you use Jymmm if you don't like mozilla? I also hate the modern extreme of "less is more", until the software does nothing useful anymore.
[14:03:49] <jdh> I like chrome
[14:03:59] <mozmck> oh, google, bleh!
[14:03:59] <jdh> well, 'like' might be overstating it.
[14:04:01] <roycroft> "modern extreme?
[14:04:02] <roycroft> "
[14:04:45] <roycroft> the long history of unix has been a philosophy of a collection of small tools, each of which does one thing well, that can easily be combined to make powerful commands
[14:04:46] <mozmck> yes, not the whole idea of "less is more", but the modern extreme version of it.
[14:05:09] <roycroft> it's only recently that huge, monolithic bloatware has encroached upon that beautiful model
[14:05:17] <mozmck> Which is why I no longer use Gnome, won't use Unity, etc.
[14:05:45] * roycroft has six xterms open on his main os x desktop at the moment
[14:05:58] <roycroft> i'm not what you call your "modern computer user"
[14:06:05] <roycroft> because i have to actually get work done :)
[14:06:59] <roycroft> unfortunately i'm patching bash on all our servers for the second time in a week today
[14:07:02] <roycroft> and not getting work done
[14:07:31] <mozmck> I find myself *far* more productive with eclipse than a simple text editor.
[14:08:19] <Tom_itx> wouldn't give you a nickle for eclipse
[14:08:31] <mozmck> And I have no interest in spending huge amounts of time trying to memorize the commands for 500 different command line programs to do what I can do in a few seconds in a good IDE.
[14:09:09] <roycroft> i suppose it has to do with what one is accustomed to doing
[14:09:28] <mozmck> Not that I don't use the command line programs, but having them tied together in a GUI is quite nice.
[14:09:33] <roycroft> i've been using unix for ~37 years now, so i'm pretty used to that
[14:09:34] <mozmck> yes, that's a large part of it.
[14:10:09] <mozmck> I still have to look in the manual to figure out how to exit vim if I accidentally open it :)
[14:10:44] <roycroft> vi was a nice improvement to ed/ex
[14:10:50] <roycroft> but i still write ed scripts upon occasion
[14:11:16] <mozmck> I use nano, or mc :) works for anything I need so far.
[14:11:28] <roycroft> i prefer a modal editor
[14:11:35] <roycroft> it fits my work flow better than a non-modal one
[14:11:46] <jdh> do you have a vt102 on your walker?
[14:11:54] <roycroft> but fortunately for all of us, we have choices
[14:12:33] <roycroft> i have a vt103 in my printer room, but i rarely use it these days
[14:12:35] <mozmck> Yes, and that brings us back to the modern extreme of "less is more", it's mostly about eliminating choices.
[14:12:45] <roycroft> my usb to rs232 converter works fine for almost everything
[14:12:56] <roycroft> you can choose not to use less :)
[14:13:51] <mozmck> Gnome radically changed the desktop, and eliminated all kinds of choices and useful features. So I choose not to use Gnome :)
[14:14:04] <roycroft> i disliked gnome from the start
[14:14:26] <roycroft> and then i went to a usenix and that gnome zealot - miguel whats-his-name gave a talk about gnome
[14:14:35] <mozmck> I saw a joke somewhere about macs getting down to a single button - no keyboard, nothing but one button.
[14:14:35] <jdh> and miguel is something of a twit
[14:15:16] <roycroft> with dennis ritchie standing right there in that room he totally excoriated unix and said it wa a horrible design from the beginning, and that dmr and ken could have learned from a real software house like microsoft
[14:15:35] <roycroft> and ranted about how his goal was to replace the unix print system with something sane such as is used in windows
[14:15:36] <mozmck> yuck!
[14:15:55] <mozmck> why didn't he stay with windows?
[14:16:04] <jdh> he's a mac weenie now
[14:16:09] <rythmnbls> his mono / .net ravings didnt help his rep either
[14:16:34] <roycroft> i just took him to be a lunatic
[14:16:55] <roycroft> and his rant confirmed that my distaste for gnome was well-founded
[14:17:05] <mozmck> I've never used .net I can't stand when a tiny utility like Microchip's Pickit2 requires a 60+MB download of .net to run.
[14:17:33] <mozmck> what desktop do you run roycroft?
[14:17:34] <roycroft> dmr (may he rest in peace) listened attentively and did not react at all to the rant
[14:17:44] <roycroft> i use macs for my desktop/laptops
[14:18:11] <roycroft> but i do probably 98% of my work for my job in xterms
[14:18:13] <mozmck> oh, gag. :)
[14:18:15] <roycroft> so it doesn't really matter
[14:18:43] <roycroft> i'm so done with messing with hardware and software configuration, which is why i use macs
[14:18:50] <roycroft> i buy a mac, i open the box, plug it in, and start working
[14:18:54] <roycroft> no bullshit
[14:19:07] <roycroft> my ui computers are just tools
[14:19:22] <roycroft> i spend enough time dealing with back room servers
[14:19:32] <roycroft> on which i mostly run openbsd, btw
[14:20:36] <_methods> so they announced windows 10 today.........
[14:20:39] <_methods> did they skip 9?
[14:20:45] <roycroft> they should have skipped 8
[14:20:48] <_methods> right
[14:20:51] <roycroft> i installed 8.1 last night to test a plotter
[14:20:55] <roycroft> what a horrible nightmare that is
[14:21:15] <roycroft> i thought 8.0 was the totally useless one
[14:21:22] <roycroft> and 8.1 made it slightly useful again
[14:21:25] <roycroft> not the case
[14:21:57] <rythmnbls> win 2012 is worse, that POS gui on a server, makes no sense
[14:22:47] <roycroft> after this bash bug fiasco i'm less inclined than ever to use linux
[14:23:51] <jdh> bsdCNC
[14:24:09] <roycroft> i don't mind running linuxcnc on a linux box
[14:24:09] <_methods> it will only cut a straight line
[14:24:13] <_methods> but it will just work
[14:24:19] <ssi> roycroft: I'm 100% with you
[14:24:21] <roycroft> the machine will not be connected to the internet
[14:24:28] <Rab> roycroft, seems like it took Apple a while to respond to that one.
[14:24:32] <roycroft> yes
[14:24:39] <ssi> roycroft: macs are the best tool for the job for people who get anything done these days
[14:24:40] <roycroft> because apple say that nobody uses bash on a mac
[14:25:21] <roycroft> i had forwarded the ssh port on to my mac pro on my home network edge
[14:25:31] <roycroft> i had to remove that port forward
[14:25:42] <roycroft> i can still vpn into my home network remotely
[14:25:50] <roycroft> but it was nice to be able to just ssh to my mac pro
[14:26:12] <roycroft> i haven't applied the apple patch yet - i don't know if it fixes all published vulnerabilities
[14:26:25] <_methods> nah it doesn't fix it
[14:26:27] <_methods> it's still busted
[14:27:04] <roycroft> that does not surprise me
[14:27:45] <roycroft> at least my raspberry pis have ash and not bash
[14:28:23] <roycroft> my real concern is that the bash bug is just the beginning
[14:28:36] <roycroft> i've been railing on the fsf and their lazy attitude about security for decades
[14:28:39] <roycroft> they really don't care
[14:28:51] <roycroft> rms said these bash bugs are "just a blip"
[14:29:11] <roycroft> and he said that all software has bugs (mostly, but not entirely true, but a horrible attitude to take)
[14:29:34] <Rab> I don't think bash is magically unsafe for humans to use as an interactive shell. You know which environmental variables you're passing by hand.
[14:29:39] <cradek> of course all software has bugs. realism is a horrible attitude?
[14:30:02] <roycroft> and then he went on a rant about how his "free" (i.e. highly encumbrered) software is better than proprietary software because his "free" software has unintentional bugs, but proprietary software *may* have intentional bugs
[14:30:11] <ssi> all software has bugs, the advantage to the fsf model is they're easier to find, and they get widespread, fast attention when they're found
[14:30:22] <Rab> I think the moral is not to call it from system services which improperly sanitize their own input.
[14:30:47] <roycroft> if he said "all software has bugs, and ours is no better than the rest, so we're working hard to minimise them and fix them as quickly as we find them" that would be ok
[14:30:50] <_methods> or don't sanitize at all
[14:31:05] <ssi> rms is a lunatic
[14:31:05] <roycroft> but his attitude was more like "all software has bugs - so what?"
[14:31:08] <ssi> I wouldn't put much stock in his words
[14:31:15] <roycroft> sure
[14:31:17] <ssi> I've met him a few times :P
[14:31:20] <roycroft> but he has thousands of acolytes
[14:31:34] <roycroft> the fsf are the tea party of the software world
[14:31:48] <ssi> lul
[14:31:59] <roycroft> and i'm not anti open source at all
[14:32:05] <roycroft> i'm very much pro open source
[14:32:15] <roycroft> i'm also pro proprietary software
[14:32:34] <roycroft> my attitude is that if you write the code you should be able to dictate the terms of its use and distribution
[14:32:48] <roycroft> the bsd license allows for that
[14:32:51] <roycroft> the gpl does not
[14:33:04] <roycroft> but gpl is not my issue today
[14:33:21] <roycroft> my issue is the crappy quality of gnu (not all gpl'ed, but specifically gnu) code
[14:33:22] <ssi> I'm not crazy about gpl either
[14:33:29] <brianmorel99> Does anyone have any recommendations for a mini itx case ?
[14:33:31] <roycroft> and the crappy attitude of the gnu maintainers
[14:33:44] <roycroft> remember, rms hates passwords
[14:33:49] <roycroft> he thinks all systems should be "open"
[14:33:51] <roycroft> and "free"
[14:34:15] <roycroft> why would he care about bugs that allow for remote exploits if he doesn't believe in passwords?
[14:34:19] <cradek> [citation needed]
[14:34:32] <ssi> lol
[14:35:01] <ssi> more citably, he uses a relatively old crappy chinese netbook because it's the only thing he could find which didn't have proprietary bios code
[14:35:05] <roycroft> if i can find something quickly
[14:35:06] <ssi> he's a lunatic
[14:35:22] <roycroft> i remember his rants about passwords on usenet back in the mid '80s
[14:36:56] <roycroft> http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/15/richard-stallman-letter/
[14:37:06] <roycroft> he discusses his philosophy about security a bit in that letter
[14:39:12] <cradek> People should not be allowed to enter others’ computers without
[14:39:13] <cradek> permission
[14:39:17] <cradek> ...
[14:39:30] <roycroft> that has nothing to do with passwords
[14:39:41] <roycroft> "Indeed, no one ever broke security on
[14:39:42] <roycroft> the AI lab's system, because we decided not to implement any."
[14:39:46] <cradek> neither does a system on a campus in 1971
[14:39:48] <roycroft> that is the part that is relevent
[14:40:22] <cradek> eh
[14:40:44] <roycroft> well i can't be bothered to do a bunch of research to give you citations
[14:40:57] <roycroft> you may choose to believe me or not
[14:41:03] <roycroft> whether you do or not does not matter to me
[14:41:18] <roycroft> and i'm not interested enough to go dig out ancient usenet archives to prove the point
[14:41:37] <cradek> ok, by all means go on, thanks
[14:43:10] <roycroft> i'm also not spending my second full work day patching ancient bourne shell sloppy coding bugs
[14:45:06] <roycroft> the biggest indictment of all was the article i read yesterday where a fsf spokesperson said "the bug (sic) goes back to 1.13, we think. we really don't know because we don't have comprehensive changelogs."
[14:51:23] <t12> lol
[14:51:24] <t12> on the otherhand
[14:51:27] <t12> everyone gets what they pay for
[14:51:29] <t12> re gnu:
[14:51:31] <t12> nothing
[14:51:39] <t12> stallman is a total weirdo
[14:51:48] <t12> but he also dedicated his life to writing a bunch of code for everyone else to use for free
[14:52:10] <t12> at pretty much his expense and everyone elses gain
[14:56:08] * Loetmichel is just eating dinner: an 1kg bucket of "straciatella" joghurt ;-) (it will reach best before date on 6th of october, so better kill it than throw it away ;)
[14:56:13] <CaptHindsight> Stallman also suffers from mental illness but he uses his obsessive behaviors to his and our advantage
[14:58:22] <CaptHindsight> you want watchdogs like him to be on the lookout
[14:58:30] <mozmck> One of the things you pay microsoft and apple for is hidden backdoors and un-fettered spying on everything you do. Google does this without most people paying them for it, but in a more Trojan Horse kind of way. At least most of the open source software does not do this (not talking about Ubuntu here!)
[15:00:43] <CaptHindsight> speaking of hidden back doors, what's a good way to backup a Linuxcnc install in case the customer borks it or screws up their password somehow?
[15:01:07] <cradek> mozmck: but those companies hide their weirdos carefully, so the folks who mistakenly think this is about personalities can find them more appealing
[15:01:33] <_methods> rsync
[15:01:35] <jdh> vs. parading them out for conferneces?
[15:01:42] <cradek> right
[15:01:58] <mozmck> :) like Balmer throwing chairs etc?
[15:02:04] <jdh> good point.
[15:02:15] <cradek> throwing chairs in an endearing way?
[15:02:31] <jdh> i bet ballmer bathes
[15:02:32] <mozmck> nah, throwing them at people in meetings I heard.
[15:05:53] <CaptHindsight> why are people more concerned with a persons image vs what they actually stand and work for?
[15:06:06] <jdh> it's more interesting.
[15:07:00] <Rab> RMS is an interesting character. He has a strict set of ethical principals and abides by them with total logical rigor. It drives people crazy; actually living your principles is very threatening behavior in our society.
[15:07:17] <CaptHindsight> psychological manipulation
[15:07:24] <cradek> CaptHindsight: it's easier and takes a lot less thought
[15:08:30] <cradek> you can point and laugh and retweet in a few seconds and never have to give it another thought
[15:08:38] <Rab> I think he's very admirable whether you share his principals or not.
[15:08:47] <Rab> Except for stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
[15:09:30] <skunkworks_> cradek, cutter comp - it has to touch ever segment?
[15:09:31] <cradek> hang on lemme retweet that
[15:09:38] <CaptHindsight> lol
[15:09:52] <cradek> skunkworks_: yes
[15:10:25] <skunkworks_> ok - so if a segment would disapear because of the offset - it is considered 'gouging'?
[15:10:27] <cradek> skunkworks_: if the tool can't get to the segment without gouging into adjacent segments, you get an error saying what went wrong
[15:10:38] <skunkworks_> ok
[15:10:46] <cradek> you'd have to show me a picture
[15:11:44] <cradek> like it's easy to have a small move in a corner that can't be touched without cutting into the adjacent "walls"
[15:12:20] <cradek> -> O___,|
[15:12:26] <cradek> everyone admire my ascii art
[15:13:04] <cradek> if the tool (O) is too big to touch that little move in the corner it's an error
[15:13:05] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/Screenshot%20from%202014-09-30%2014:51:39.png
[15:13:40] <cradek> which color is the nominal path?
[15:14:05] <skunkworks> red is un-offset
[15:14:20] <cradek> this isn't an error is it? if you make the tool much bigger it is though, I bet
[15:14:28] <skunkworks> correct
[15:14:50] <skunkworks> that is right at the limit
[15:14:56] <cradek> yep that's what I expect to happen
[15:15:00] <skunkworks> ok
[15:15:21] <cradek> it doesn't know how to throw out segments
[15:15:27] <cradek> that way lies madness
[15:15:29] <CaptHindsight> _methods: yes, been considering that with a complete image of their system on a separate partition and an additional su account
[15:15:38] <_methods> yeah
[15:15:39] <skunkworks> That is what I assume. I bet it gets exponentially harder
[15:15:45] <_methods> i like rsync
[15:15:47] <_methods> simple
[15:16:43] <CaptHindsight> they delete the wrong file like the HAL or INI file they are actually using
[15:16:57] <_methods> yeah keep progressive rsync's
[15:17:40] <CaptHindsight> it's always some panic call, "it broke!" "can't login or it won't start"
[15:17:41] <cradek> bbl
[15:24:30] <_methods> CaptHindsight: you have ssh access to your customer rigs?
[15:25:01] <CaptHindsight> _methods: yes, but it for the ones with no network connection
[15:25:07] <_methods> ah yeah that sux
[15:25:25] <CaptHindsight> some are behind layers of firewalls
[15:25:34] <_methods> yeah it's never easy
[15:26:27] <_methods> yeah a hidden partition with an original setup and rsync progressive backups would be the way to go
[15:26:27] <CaptHindsight> with security comes great responsibility
[15:26:51] <_methods> and maybe write a script to load the rsyncs
[15:26:57] <_methods> that they can run easily
[15:30:20] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ironkey.com/en-US/ might have to consider this as well
[15:30:56] <CaptHindsight> biometric authentication vs just password
[15:31:31] <_methods> i haven't tried any biometric stuff for liek 4 years now
[15:31:38] <_methods> i had a laptop with it
[15:31:41] <_methods> pain in the dick
[15:32:11] <_methods> i'm guessin by now someone has gotten it smoothed out
[15:32:14] <Rab> You can use your finger, you know.
[15:32:18] <CaptHindsight> I had a laptop with it as well, I could just slide a few fingers over the scanner to login
[15:32:33] <_methods> i could never get it to work right
[15:32:48] <_methods> i woul have to slide over it like 10 times
[15:33:02] <_methods> it was so annoying i just went back to pw
[15:33:44] <CaptHindsight> it'a an HP (old core duo 32b) but I haven't used it in a while and now I've lost the BIOS password
[15:33:58] <Loetmichel> WOHAh... thats strong. the chinese ebay sellers have answeered. they want to chas back 3(!) eurs of the 50 eur bill for the two 64gig flasdrives that are 1/8th the speed they advertized...
[15:34:44] <CaptHindsight> it was great until I ran a BIOS update and then the batteries started dying prematurely, they probably forgot to include that feature in the original
[15:36:45] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: yeah, they figure that you'll just keep them vs return since the return shipping costs so much
[15:38:03] <_methods> do a charge back on them
[15:38:20] <roycroft> if it's ebay open a case on ebay
[15:38:39] <roycroft> that's a lot easier and more productive than doing a chargeback with your credit card issuer
[15:38:58] <CaptHindsight> happened to me with a USB microscope, was actually VGA vs 5MP res
[15:39:11] <_methods> aghhh
[15:39:16] <_methods> i got nailed by the same shit
[15:39:21] <_methods> 5mp my asss
[15:39:23] <roycroft> i've only had to open a handful of cases with ebay over the years, but 100% of them were resolved to my satisfaction
[15:41:01] <Rab> CaptHindsight, the MP rating often refers to still picture capability. And sometimes it's upscaled by the desktop software.
[15:41:31] <CaptHindsight> Rab: that was their response, "we meant that the software can handle 5MP"
[15:41:39] <Rab> Haha, pitiful.
[15:41:47] <CaptHindsight> I got them to change their ad
[15:42:12] <CaptHindsight> took them 3 tries to get all the misleading info from the page :)
[15:43:32] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-200X-USB-Digital-Pen-Microscope-Endoscope-Magnifier-Camera-5MP-LED-/161328447745 was just like this listing
[15:43:36] <Loetmichel> roycroft: case is aready open.
[15:43:59] <Loetmichel> and if they dont comply i will simply tell paypal to redfund me because seller is unreasonable
[15:46:17] <CaptHindsight> you have a good case if they specifically listed it as the higher speed version
[15:47:15] <CaptHindsight> or like my 300kP vs 5MP microscope :)
[15:55:04] <mozmck> I need to get a good usb microscope, any suggestions for one that is good and not too expensive?
[15:57:07] <roycroft> i opened a case once with both ebay and paypal
[15:57:11] <roycroft> paypal refunded my money
[15:57:20] <roycroft> ebay found in favor of me and told the seller to refund my money
[15:57:35] <roycroft> i told the seller that i already had my money from paypal, but he refunded it again anyway
[15:57:39] <roycroft> and this was on a $400 item
[15:59:19] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: I don't have this exact one but I hear it's nice https://www.adafruit.com/products/636
[15:59:57] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDAYin-jzp8 actual video
[16:02:58] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: i ordered from them 2 times
[16:03:09] <Loetmichel> the first batch was good, the second is very bad
[16:03:34] <Loetmichel> so i will call a "bait and swich" if they dont comply...
[16:03:40] <Loetmichel> i think i am pretty good...
[16:04:40] <Loetmichel> http://www.ebay.de/itm/351050836974 <- ordering THAT and getting that: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15315&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[16:20:50] <Deejay> gn8
[16:24:10] <_methods> CaptHindsight: did you ever find a good microscope?
[16:43:45] <CaptHindsight> _methods: I found the Logitech C270 and the C310 to work well with minor mods for camview edge finding/ZEROing
[16:44:02] <CaptHindsight> http://www.logitech.com/en-us/webcam-communications/webcams for budget applications
[16:47:16] <CaptHindsight> otherwise I use real image sensors and lenses for precise work http://www.hirox-usa.com/products/mount_lens/mx_series/mx-10c.html http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/cameras/gigabit-ethernet-cameras/avt-prosilica-gt-series-gige-cameras/3583 or similar
[16:47:26] <Rab> I just bought a C260 off eBay, works great for close focus and it was <$15 shipped.
[16:47:41] <Rab> (Same as C270)
[16:48:20] <Rab> CaptHindsight, what are your mods? Disassembly and focus adjustment?
[16:48:26] <CaptHindsight> Rab: I just needed to open the case so I could rotate the lens slightly to get in closer
[16:48:37] <Rab> Ahh right
[16:50:25] <Rab> I also got a Microsoft LifeCam 5001 which I like better than the Logitech. More compact and better image quality. It does have a little autofocus element which needs to be desoldered or set with uvcdynctrl.
[16:54:51] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/1c9zuonpOcyi C270, 100um gap, sobel edge detect
[16:56:29] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/1cA0LyuHgway vga webcam, 100um gap, sobel
[16:59:00] <CaptHindsight> the second pic is a VGA microscope, like that supposed 5MP pencil type on ebay that was actually only VGA
[17:22:47] <CaptHindsight> Rab: it would be nice to be able to use the autofocus and then lock it at it closest setting for edge detection
[17:23:30] <CaptHindsight> Rab: http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/en-us/d/lifecam-hd-5001 is the focus actually motorized?
[17:23:51] <Rab> CaptHindsight, yeah. It's some kind of element in the lens with two leads you can unsolder.
[17:24:11] <Rab> I imagine it's a lens in a coil like a CD pickup.
[17:25:35] <Rab> I can't get the UVC utilities to compile on my workstation, but supposedly you can set auto or a manual range of 0-40.
[17:26:59] <Rab> The lens can be physically rotated to change focus, so autofocus is operating on whatever focal plane you set the lens to.
[17:27:51] <Rab> Note that the HD-5001 is exactly the same as the HD-5000, it's just special Best Buy branding or something. (Same deal with C260/C270).
[17:31:54] <Rab> I think in an ideal setup the edge detection software would fine-tune focus first, sending parameters to uvcdynctrl, then proceed to edge recognition mode.
[17:32:46] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-6-LED-1-3M-Clip-WebCam-Web-Camera-w-Microphone-MIC-/330616795036 was also useable and only ~$4
[17:33:01] <Rab> The native autofocus function is really annoying because it wigs out and refocuses from time to time. Lots of complaints from people trying to use it to record videocasts etc.
[17:35:02] <CaptHindsight> ebay should just delete these types of listings http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-50-0M-6-LED-CMOS-PC-Camera-Network-Webcam-with-MIC-For-Pc-SG-/221557274594
[17:36:48] <Rab> CaptHindsight, a friend of mine is using cheap cams similar to that one for pick'n'place projects: https://github.com/jerkey/homer
[17:37:17] <Rab> (Item 330616795036)
[17:39:58] <CaptHindsight> Rab: is that project pick-n-place using duino+rpi vs PC+Linuxcnc?
[17:40:19] <Rab> CaptHindsight, I think it runs on a BeagleBone Black.
[17:48:41] <CaptHindsight> http://hackaday.io/project/963/log/10095-esd-mitigation-strategy Yikes!
[18:53:41] <zeeshan|2> hi!
[19:00:59] <zeeshan|2> can someone explain the reason why i lose steps in one scenario and not in the other:
[19:01:23] <zeeshan|2> scenario 1: 1/4 step mode, 100 ipm, 3:1 drive ratio.
[19:01:29] <zeeshan|2> (no step loss)
[19:01:45] <zeeshan|2> scenario 2: 1/4 step mode, 120ipm, 3:1 drive ratio. (loss of steps
[19:02:00] <zeeshan|2> scenario 2: 1/2 step mode, 120ipm, 3:1 drive ratio. (loss of steps)
[19:02:06] <zeeshan|2> scenario 3 i mean
[19:03:29] <zeeshan|2> i also tried to change the acceleration rate
[19:03:33] <zeeshan|2> to much less. half the value
[19:03:35] <zeeshan|2> still step loss
[19:03:42] <zeeshan|2> makes no sense to me
[19:09:33] <CaptHindsight> electric kilns build vs buy, 1600 °C (2900°F) internal volume ~8 x 4 x 4 inch
[19:10:22] <malcom2073> What do you use to heat that sort of thing, gas?
[19:10:34] <malcom2073> I assume electric can't get that hot?
[19:10:37] <zeeshan|2> electricity
[19:10:44] <zeeshan|2> why not
[19:10:50] <CaptHindsight> gas or electric, I'm looking for electric
[19:10:51] <zeeshan|2> you can weld metal with electricity
[19:10:51] <zeeshan|2> :D
[19:11:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.nabertherm-usa.com/produkte/details/en/advancedmaterials_hochtemperaturoefen
[19:11:16] <malcom2073> Ok then, what kind of metal do you use for the heaters? heh
[19:11:40] <CaptHindsight> ^^ on that page you can see the heater elements available
[19:11:48] <malcom2073> Ah cool
[19:11:51] <Rab> malcom2073, induction heating.
[19:12:22] <zeeshan|2> rab help me fix my step loss
[19:12:22] <zeeshan|2> :{
[19:12:28] <malcom2073> Oh cool, silicon carbide in this case
[19:12:32] <zeeshan|2> youre a master electronics person!
[19:13:22] <Rab> zeeshan|2, I had step loss in my FleshCut setup. So I A) turned off microstepping, B) dropped the max speed until it stopped losing steps.
[19:13:32] <zeeshan|2> rab thats what is confusing me
[19:13:36] <zeeshan|2> i went from 1/4 to 1/2 step
[19:13:43] <Rab> I don't think I am the right person to help you have a non-ghetto setup.
[19:13:45] <zeeshan|2> kept speed the same
[19:13:56] <zeeshan|2> theoretically i should be able to generate more pulses
[19:13:58] <zeeshan|2> in a given period of time
[19:14:05] <zeeshan|2> by dropping the microstep
[19:14:09] <zeeshan|2> hehe
[19:14:16] <zeeshan|2> your setup isnt ghetto!
[19:14:33] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-Microwave-Gold-Smelting-Kiln-Kit-with-Pouring-Mold-Crucibles-Flux-Tongs-/380966663672
[19:14:53] <Rab> zeeshan|2, you're too kind.
[19:15:12] <zeeshan|2> did you fix your backlash
[19:15:24] <CaptHindsight> Gold melts at 1064C or 1948F, hows that for the microwave!
[19:17:28] <ssi> phew
[19:17:40] <zeeshan|2> sssssssssssssi
[19:17:44] <zeeshan|2> fixxxxx it!
[19:17:53] <ssi> mesa :)
[19:17:57] <zeeshan|2> nooo
[19:18:33] <PCW> mesa and 32 usteps FTW
[19:18:39] <ssi> PCW++
[19:18:40] <_methods> amen
[19:18:46] <zeeshan|2> i get it for mill
[19:18:49] <zeeshan|2> not lathe!
[19:18:55] <ssi> then enjoy your step loss!
[19:18:57] <zeeshan|2> why i am confused is
[19:18:59] <_methods> if you go over 130 do you still lose steps?
[19:19:02] <zeeshan|2> my Z axis is running at 250 ipm.
[19:19:06] <zeeshan|2> but its 1:1 drive ratio
[19:19:12] <zeeshan|2> where as X axis is 3:1
[19:19:22] <zeeshan|2> infact i got Z up to 300 ipm
[19:19:24] <zeeshan|2> without step loss
[19:19:36] <zeeshan|2> _methods: i get loss at 120 ipm
[19:19:40] <zeeshan|2> anything more than 100 ipm on X
[19:19:44] <_methods> but fine at 100
[19:19:49] <zeeshan|2> yes
[19:19:56] <_methods> have you tried 140 or 150?
[19:20:00] <zeeshan|2> no
[19:20:01] <_methods> just to see if it's a band
[19:20:07] <_methods> where step loss occurs
[19:20:10] <zeeshan|2> that's possible?
[19:20:31] <_methods> yeah
[19:20:38] <ssi> resonance
[19:20:40] <PCW> may just be out of torque at ~100 IPM and your voltage, or could be resonance
[19:20:43] <ssi> what kind of drives do you have
[19:21:16] <zeeshan|2> http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.automationtechnologiesinc.com%2Fproducts-page%2Fdigital-stepper-motor-driver%2Fdigital-stepper-driver-kl-5056d-heat-sink-is-included&ei=b0QrVJGIC4ewyQTkkoGwDg&usg=AFQjCNHwhtGC5s-9FkqsNmRpjqEPe0WWQA&bvm=bv.76477589,d.aWw
[19:21:19] <zeeshan|2> er
[19:21:20] <zeeshan|2> not those
[19:21:25] <ssi> those are what I use on the laser
[19:21:32] <zeeshan|2> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/digital-stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-kl-8070d-heat-sink-is-included
[19:21:33] <zeeshan|2> that one
[19:21:39] <zeeshan|2> steppers are 1200oz-in
[19:21:45] <ssi> keling?
[19:21:46] <zeeshan|2> bipolar
[19:21:48] <zeeshan|2> yes
[19:22:02] <ssi> what voltage power supply
[19:22:06] <zeeshan|2> 65VDC
[19:22:09] <zeeshan|2> 20A toriod
[19:22:57] <zeeshan|2> how do you know when a stepper resonates
[19:23:18] <_methods> it depends on the stepper
[19:23:19] <ssi> half coil or full coil?
[19:23:26] <_methods> are you using dampers?
[19:23:27] <ssi> series or parallel
[19:23:58] <zeeshan|2> 4 wire
[19:24:00] <zeeshan|2> bipolar
[19:24:03] <ssi> series or parallel
[19:24:18] <zeeshan|2> bipolar parallel
[19:24:19] <ssi> I'm trying to figure out what inductance you're running
[19:24:27] <zeeshan|2> 6 mH
[19:24:27] <Rab> zeeshan|2, tried .010 backlash compensation but it didn't fix the problem, just introduced some bizarre artifacts.
[19:24:32] <ssi> datasheet I'm looking at says 6.5 for parallel
[19:24:49] <zeeshan|2> ssi 6 - 6.5 :P
[19:24:54] <zeeshan|2> close enough!
[19:24:58] <ssi> yes
[19:25:01] <ssi> I'm just trying to nail it down
[19:25:01] <zeeshan|2> Rab: maybe it's not screw backlash
[19:25:26] <ssi> optimal voltage is 80V
[19:25:39] <zeeshan|2> ssi the thing is
[19:25:42] <ssi> 1200oz steppers are pretty big
[19:25:42] <zeeshan|2> i have the same stepper on both axis
[19:25:44] <ssi> why did you go so big?
[19:25:51] <zeeshan|2> the only difference is X is 3:1 drive ratio
[19:25:57] <zeeshan|2> so if power was the issue
[19:25:59] <zeeshan|2> why is the Z working
[19:26:08] <ssi> well because you're starting with massive servos
[19:26:09] <zeeshan|2> ssi: i did some calculations back in the day
[19:26:16] <zeeshan|2> and multipled by 2.5
[19:26:16] <ssi> and then multiplying the torque by 3 on x
[19:26:16] <zeeshan|2> :)
[19:26:29] <Rab> zeeshan|2, I thought of that. I suppose it could be an issue with the belt drive.
[19:26:32] <ssi> I'd put a 570 on the X or something
[19:26:34] <PCW> 5 TPI screws?
[19:26:37] <ssi> see what that does
[19:26:41] <zeeshan|2> PCW: 5mm pitch yes
[19:26:52] <ssi> big servos can lose steps if you run them fast
[19:26:56] <zeeshan|2> ssi 570 = which value?
[19:27:00] <ssi> ozinn
[19:27:14] <zeeshan|2> oh fak
[19:27:19] <zeeshan|2> i didnt think about that.
[19:27:22] <zeeshan|2> you're eright
[19:27:30] <zeeshan|2> x servo is seing a higher PPS
[19:27:32] <ssi> of course I'm right :D
[19:27:33] <zeeshan|2> cause of the 3:1 ratio
[19:27:37] <PCW> so 120 IPM is 1800 RPM, you're out of headroom
[19:27:54] <zeeshan|2> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34H2120-42-8AT.pdf
[19:28:13] <ssi> higher PPI, not necessarily higher PPS
[19:28:26] <zeeshan|2> okay
[19:28:30] <zeeshan|2> so 100 ipm on X it is
[19:28:39] <zeeshan|2> ill leave Z to 200
[19:28:42] <zeeshan|2> give myself a buffer
[19:28:45] <PCW> or change the ratio
[19:28:47] <ssi> Z will probably run 300 if you want it to
[19:29:00] <zeeshan|2> PCW: nah ill lose resolution
[19:29:12] <zeeshan|2> but for sure on the mill
[19:29:14] <zeeshan|2> it's going to be servos
[19:29:19] <zeeshan|2> and mesa
[19:29:34] <zeeshan|2> as is factory, it had 250 ipm rapid
[19:29:37] <zeeshan|2> *has
[19:29:42] <zeeshan|2> and i'd like to have that minimum
[19:30:02] <ssi> heh
[19:30:12] <ssi> my machine is listed as 590ipm, and pete's is 750
[19:30:15] <ssi> I want at least 590 :)
[19:30:23] <zeeshan|2> you guys have much bigger
[19:30:25] <zeeshan|2> travels though
[19:30:27] <zeeshan|2> so you need it
[19:30:34] <ssi> it's not that big
[19:30:37] <ssi> 20x20x20
[19:30:39] <zeeshan|2> mines like 16x16x16
[19:30:41] <zeeshan|2> oh
[19:31:03] <zeeshan|2> i'd like to run a face mill on aluminum
[19:31:05] <zeeshan|2> at 100 ipm :D
[19:31:18] <ssi> I haven't even considered feeds and speeds yet tbh
[19:31:22] <ssi> I'm sure it'll be significant tho
[19:31:27] <ssi> btw machine is coming thursday morning :)
[19:31:36] <zeeshan|2> depends on if youre using carbide end mill
[19:31:38] <zeeshan|2> and what youre cutting
[19:31:42] <ssi> yeah I'm aware
[19:31:49] <ssi> I just dunno how much I'll be able to do
[19:31:49] <zeeshan|2> do you know thw two forumlas?
[19:31:51] <ssi> yeah
[19:31:53] <zeeshan|2> you should know by heart?
[19:31:55] <zeeshan|2> tell me!
[19:32:01] <ssi> heh no not by heart
[19:32:04] * zeeshan|2 has been teaching the milling lab
[19:32:18] <zeeshan|2> rpm = 4 * cutting speed / diameter
[19:32:30] <zeeshan|2> feedrate = rpm * number of teeth * chip load per tooth
[19:32:40] <_methods> 3.86
[19:32:46] <zeeshan|2> _methods: relax!
[19:32:49] <zeeshan|2> round :P
[19:33:03] <_methods> lol
[19:33:04] <ssi> yeah that's inside 10%, and is therefore insignificant :)
[19:33:06] <ssi> engineering ftw
[19:33:07] <zeeshan|2> a high helix carbide end mill cutting aluminum
[19:33:23] <zeeshan|2> has a cutting speed of like 600-1400 surface feet per minute
[19:33:49] <zeeshan|2> so rpm = 4*1000 / .5 "
[19:33:55] <zeeshan|2> so the 1/2 " end mill needs to run at 8000 rpm!
[19:34:11] <ssi> no problem :)
[19:34:28] <zeeshan|2> feed per tooth for a 1/2" carbide end mill cutting aluminum is .006-0.009
[19:34:33] <roycroft> happy dance time
[19:34:49] <roycroft> i was just able to print a test page to the plotter from windows 8.1
[19:34:49] <zeeshan|2> 8000*0.008*3 (assume 3 flute end mill)
[19:34:58] <roycroft> now i can sell the bloody thing
[19:34:58] <ssi> roycroft: awesome
[19:35:00] <zeeshan|2> 192 inches per minute!!!
[19:35:07] <ssi> is that all? boooo
[19:35:08] <zeeshan|2> to run that baby at it's max production capacity
[19:35:08] <ssi> ;)
[19:35:12] <roycroft> i got a windows xp 64 bit driver for it
[19:35:24] <roycroft> and had to figure out how to disable driver signature checking on windows 8 to install it
[19:35:28] <roycroft> but after that it was easy
[19:35:41] <ssi> ugh that's been my nightmare lately
[19:35:44] <ssi> I still haven't made any progress
[19:35:52] <ssi> I need to get an external hard drive before i can do any more
[19:36:17] <zeeshan|2> does anyone know
[19:36:21] <ssi> I was able to get to the F8 menu under vmware fusion fwiw
[19:36:26] <roycroft> i've been getting some 2-1/2" laptop drives and putting them in tiny enclosures with a usb interface
[19:36:27] <zeeshan|2> how much the tool height ca nbe below the center line
[19:36:29] <zeeshan|2> of what you're cutting on a lathe
[19:36:33] <zeeshan|2> is 0.030" acceptable?
[19:36:38] <roycroft> they're nice - i can stick 512gb drives in my pocket
[19:36:50] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: wut
[19:36:54] <zeeshan|2> you dont take magnets out of them?!
[19:36:55] <zeeshan|2> :D
[19:37:03] <roycroft> no
[19:37:10] <ssi> I have a 500G laptop drive on hand, I just don't have an enclosure for it
[19:37:10] <roycroft> 2.5" drives have tiny magnets
[19:37:11] <zeeshan|2> they have delicious magnets
[19:37:18] <roycroft> i like the magnets from the bigger drives
[19:37:21] <ssi> zeeshan|2: I have hundreds of hard drives t hat will give up their magnets
[19:37:25] <zeeshan|2> haha
[19:37:33] <roycroft> the shiny platters are nice too
[19:37:37] <ssi> I've got an insane number of 9, 18, 36G scsi server drives
[19:37:38] <zeeshan|2> i personally use ssd for my cnc machine
[19:37:43] <roycroft> they're good for making wind chimes
[19:37:44] <ssi> I use ssd for everything
[19:37:48] <zeeshan|2> it just seems to be less suseptcible to noise
[19:37:50] <roycroft> you must be rich
[19:37:52] <zeeshan|2> i mean vibration
[19:37:55] <ssi> SO RICH
[19:38:02] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: nah man theyre like $50
[19:38:04] <zeeshan|2> for a 50gb
[19:38:06] <ssi> I've been buying ssds for years
[19:38:06] <zeeshan|2> or something small
[19:38:12] <ssi> my old ones get rotated out to other machines
[19:38:12] <roycroft> you don't need much of one for a cnc controller
[19:38:17] <zeeshan|2> well i did
[19:38:19] <zeeshan|2> cause how i mounted it
[19:38:24] <roycroft> 1TB ssd drives are still expensive
[19:38:28] <ssi> $400!
[19:38:29] <ssi> cheap!
[19:38:35] <ssi> I paid $400 for my first 120G
[19:38:43] <zeeshan|2> ssi cleans his butt with dollar bills not toilet paper
[19:38:47] <roycroft> i can get some nice linear bearing rails for $400
[19:38:48] <ssi> duh
[19:38:49] <zeeshan|2> =D
[19:38:57] <ssi> it's because I have a jobbie
[19:38:58] <roycroft> or three gecko stepper controllers
[19:39:01] <ssi> you should get a jobbie
[19:39:08] <roycroft> i have a job
[19:39:10] <zeeshan|2> fak gecko stepper controllers
[19:39:11] <ssi> not you ;)
[19:39:12] <zeeshan|2> go chinese!
[19:39:26] <ssi> yeah man I'd take a keling digital drive over a gecko any day of the week
[19:39:46] <ssi> I want to try the parker stepper drives
[19:39:50] <jdh> I'll trade you a keling non digital for a digital
[19:39:59] <zeeshan|2> whats so special about digital
[19:40:02] <zeeshan|2> i bought digital
[19:40:03] <zeeshan|2> cause it sounded cool
[19:40:11] <ssi> anti resonance and junk I think
[19:40:11] <zeeshan|2> and they say it makes your motor at a lower current
[19:40:15] <zeeshan|2> so it doesnt overheat
[19:40:23] <zeeshan|2> ah
[19:40:42] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-CompuMotor-GT6-L5-Gemini-Stepper-Drive-DRV-CTRL-Unique-eBay-No-Reserve-/251658230382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a97ffda6e
[19:41:00] <zeeshan|2> that looks massive!
[19:41:00] <zeeshan|2> :D
[19:41:04] <ssi> YEP
[19:41:11] <zeeshan|2> how big is that drive
[19:41:13] <ssi> I dunno
[19:41:14] <ssi> looking it up
[19:41:26] <ssi> physically it's about the size of my parker 3.5kw servo drives
[19:41:44] <zeeshan|2> this is interesting
[19:41:47] <zeeshan|2> you feed it AC current..
[19:41:48] <ssi> 5A at 170VDC
[19:41:50] <ssi> yes
[19:41:54] <ssi> that's why I love these drives
[19:41:56] <ssi> tehy're self-powered
[19:41:57] <zeeshan|2> so no need for a seperate power supply
[19:41:58] <zeeshan|2> nice
[19:42:12] <zeeshan|2> feedback too.
[19:42:17] <ssi> yep
[19:42:26] <zeeshan|2> rs232
[19:42:31] <zeeshan|2> so you can prolly communicate with it
[19:42:36] <zeeshan|2> and modify parameters using modbus
[19:42:39] <ssi> probably
[19:43:53] <zeeshan|2> i have to make up some questions
[19:43:53] <roycroft> time for another happy dance
[19:43:54] <ssi> If you use a non-Compumotor motor, or choose to configure a Compumotor motor, use the following commands to configure motor settings:
[19:43:55] <zeeshan|2> for the milling lab
[19:43:57] <ssi> Command Description
[19:44:00] <ssi> DMTSTT static torque
[19:44:02] <ssi> DMTIC continuous current DMTIND inductance DMTRES phase resistance DMTJ rotor inertia
[19:44:05] <ssi> DPOLE number of pole pairs
[19:44:05] <zeeshan|2> that the students need to answer in 3 hours
[19:44:06] <roycroft> i just plotted a drawing from autocad to the plotter
[19:44:08] <ssi> DIGNA current loop gain
[19:44:10] <ssi> DIGNB current loop gain
[19:44:17] <ssi> roycroft: :D
[19:44:20] <ssi> now get it sold
[19:44:23] <ssi> then come sell my plotter
[19:44:33] <ssi> "plotter" is a generous term for mine
[19:44:39] <ssi> it's a 36" inkjet plotter
[19:44:47] <ssi> I wish it were a pen plotter
[19:45:12] <roycroft> the guy is in a meeting
[19:45:17] <roycroft> he's going to call me when it's over
[19:45:25] <ssi> You can use the Gemini drive’s encoderless stall detect function to detect motor stalls. A stall occurs when the motor’s rotor loses synchronism with the stator. An external feedback device is not required to detect stalls.
[19:45:27] <zeeshan|2> PCW: i got more pictures of the cnc mill im picking up
[19:45:29] <ssi> hot
[19:45:32] <zeeshan|2> i think it uses linear scalres.
[19:45:33] <roycroft> nobody makes pen plotters any more
[19:45:39] <roycroft> this one uses inkjet cartridges
[19:45:42] <zeeshan|2> theyve got a tag on them that saysa
[19:45:47] <zeeshan|2> referenzmarke
[19:45:54] <roycroft> i'm thinking of getting an old pen plotter though
[19:45:59] <roycroft> it would make a good cnc vinyl cutter
[19:46:00] <ssi> pen plotters are way cooler
[19:46:01] <zeeshan|2> heidenhain makes it i think.
[19:46:08] <ssi> you can get cnc vinyl cutters cheap
[19:46:15] <roycroft> yeah
[19:46:22] <roycroft> by getting a $50 pen plotter and converting it :)
[19:46:25] <PCW> Yeah almost always Heidehain
[19:46:32] <ssi> heheh
[19:46:40] <zeeshan|2> so you guys make a card
[19:46:51] <zeeshan|2> to be able to intrepret the signals from the linear scale?
[19:47:07] <PCW> not available yet unfortunately
[19:47:11] <zeeshan|2> :-(
[19:47:31] <zeeshan|2> so i'll have to add encoders is my only option?
[19:47:35] <roycroft> i guess i should reenable driver signature checking and see if windows will complain about this now-installed driver
[19:47:36] <PCW> but you may have the interpolators with the control box
[19:47:55] <PCW> (or you can buy some EXE boxes on Ebay)
[19:48:11] <zeeshan|2> whats EXE stand for
[19:48:19] <zeeshan|2> nm
[19:48:23] <zeeshan|2> Heidenhain EXE 610C Scale Interpolation
[19:49:08] <zeeshan|2> are linear scales more accurate in comparison to quadrature encoders?
[19:49:13] <zeeshan|2> 1000 lines
[19:50:02] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/f73ZefQ.jpg
[19:50:04] <zeeshan|2> ^ the scale
[19:50:05] <roycroft> oh, it only disables signature checking for that session - it resets on reboot
[19:50:07] <roycroft> excellent
[19:50:25] <ssi> beyond the fact that they're not subject to backlash or screw errors, I can't imagine why they would be
[19:50:32] <zeeshan|2> poor machine is so dirty
[19:50:36] <ssi> 1000 lines per what
[19:50:40] <zeeshan|2> rev
[19:50:45] <ssi> linear scales don't rev
[19:50:48] <zeeshan|2> for a typical quadrature encoder
[19:51:00] <zeeshan|2> i dont know what the linear scale's precision is
[19:51:14] <PCW> do the motors have encoders?
[19:51:29] <zeeshan|2> i asked the guy to send me pics of the motors
[19:51:33] <zeeshan|2> and he sends me one pic haha
[19:51:36] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/LgZffuA.jpg
[19:51:38] <zeeshan|2> thats all i got.
[19:51:51] <zeeshan|2> im assuming that box has an encoder/resolver in it
[19:53:19] <zeeshan|2> http://www.heidenhain.de/presentation/posa/de/index/N10582/N108A6/N108A6.html
[19:53:24] <zeeshan|2> demonstration of how the linea rencoder works
[19:53:28] <zeeshan|2> its in german :P
[19:53:50] <ssi> I wish I knew whether my mill was resolver or encoder
[19:53:54] <ssi> and anything at all about the servos
[19:53:55] <PCW> any manuals/scematics
[19:54:00] <PCW> ?
[19:54:06] <ssi> it'll all come with the machine
[19:54:06] <zeeshan|2> pcw he said he has a booklet
[19:54:08] <zeeshan|2> in the cabinet
[19:54:39] <PCW> may help determine what you've got
[19:55:39] <zeeshan|2> hm
[19:55:43] <zeeshan|2> from what im understanding
[19:55:57] <zeeshan|2> the linear scales are used to restore position of the machine after a power cycle
[19:56:17] <zeeshan|2> not actually for feedback for the servos
[19:56:24] <zeeshan|2> so it mighjt actually have resolvers/encoders + the scale
[19:56:46] <PCW> ideally you will have encoders on the motors, resolvers would not be too bad, but if drives only have tachometers you may need to add encoders
[19:57:16] <PCW> especially if there's any backlash
[19:57:29] <zeeshan|2> i hope there isnt any
[19:57:34] <zeeshan|2> bachlash sucks for milling :(
[19:57:44] <zeeshan|2> its a great way to destroy carbide emd mills
[19:58:13] <ssi> is it ballscrew?
[19:58:17] <PCW> also sucks for stability of control loops
[19:58:49] <zeeshan|2> ssi yes
[19:58:53] <zeeshan|2> according to the seller
[19:58:56] <ssi> should be fine then
[19:59:12] <zeeshan|2> its part of the reason ibought it
[19:59:18] <zeeshan|2> screw converting a bridgeport to ball screws
[19:59:21] <zeeshan|2> too much effort
[19:59:52] <zeeshan|2> just wanna clean the machine, modernize the electronical components, lose some hair, modernize more electreical components
[19:59:55] <zeeshan|2> and call it a day :P
[20:01:08] <ssi> you and me both
[20:01:23] <ssi> my hope is that I can use my motors as is
[20:01:38] <zeeshan|2> your machine looks newer
[20:01:43] <zeeshan|2> do you know when it was made?
[20:01:44] <ssi> 1993 I believe
[20:01:47] <zeeshan|2> yea
[20:01:50] <zeeshan|2> thats pretty damn new
[20:02:01] <ssi> haha
[20:02:18] <zeeshan|2> i bet it comes with a color screen
[20:02:22] <zeeshan|2> not a unicolor screen like my thing
[20:02:28] <ssi> yeah it's color
[20:02:31] <ssi> but the crt is dead
[20:02:38] <ssi> comes with an LCD sitting on top
[20:02:38] <ssi> haha
[20:02:42] <zeeshan|2> you were gonna kill the crt anyway
[20:02:42] <zeeshan|2> =D
[20:02:46] <ssi> yep
[20:02:55] <ssi> this thing is FAR newer than my other 'real' machine
[20:03:05] <zeeshan|2> and im jealous
[20:03:06] <ssi> whose "screen" was 14 nixie tubes :D
[20:03:07] <zeeshan|2> that you get it monday.
[20:03:09] <zeeshan|2> :(
[20:03:12] <ssi> I get it thursday!
[20:03:16] <zeeshan|2> oh
[20:03:20] <zeeshan|2> still earlier tha nme
[20:03:20] <ssi> as in 36 hours from now!
[20:03:53] <jdh> nixie tubes r0ck.
[20:03:59] <zeeshan|2> i was so impressed with one of the milling groups today
[20:04:04] <zeeshan|2> these guys called me out right to my face
[20:04:06] <ssi> these are 7seg tubes, not as cool as true nixies
[20:04:24] <zeeshan|2> they're like "isn't a vernier caliper inaccurate enough to measure our part and set the machine read out?"
[20:04:40] <ssi> they're actually called "numitrons"
[20:04:41] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bc1xn_ICIAATLLA.jpg:large
[20:04:46] <zeeshan|2> this same group hit their slot tolerance of 25.00 to 25.01 mm
[20:04:47] <zeeshan|2> haha
[20:05:15] <zeeshan|2> how does a group that has 0 milling experience
[20:05:24] <zeeshan|2> hit within a 0.02mm tolerance
[20:05:30] <ssi> beginners luck? ;)
[20:05:36] <zeeshan|2> maybe
[20:05:41] <zeeshan|2> they were so anal
[20:05:46] <zeeshan|2> they literally measured the end mill with a micrometer
[20:05:49] <ssi> some people have aptitude, and if they don't know what they're doing they'll take extra care
[20:05:52] <ssi> yea see that :)
[20:05:58] <zeeshan|2> and found out that the ,75 end mill was actually .7485"
[20:05:58] <zeeshan|2> haha
[20:06:37] <zeeshan|2> since they did so well
[20:06:48] <zeeshan|2> i hinted them what questions are coming on the graded assignment and the answers :d
[20:07:00] <ssi> I'm hungry
[20:07:02] <ssi> bring me a sandwich
[20:07:21] <zeeshan|2> they have to treat an end mill as a cantilever beam and determine the deflection
[20:07:23] <zeeshan|2> the tool encounters
[20:07:29] <zeeshan|2> no
[20:07:32] <zeeshan|2> get your own sandwich
[20:07:32] <roycroft> i'm a slow, but accurate machinist
[20:07:37] <ssi> depends how sharp the tool is :P
[20:07:45] <zeeshan|2> ssi can't ask me that
[20:07:48] <roycroft> which means i'm really not a machinist
[20:07:53] <roycroft> a machinist is fast and accurate
[20:07:54] <zeeshan|2> i give them the axial, tangential, and radial forces
[20:07:59] <ssi> that's fine
[20:08:02] <zeeshan|2> they have all the vector components to come up with the answer
[20:08:05] <ssi> forces depend on sharpness :)
[20:08:11] <ssi> which is what I was getting at
[20:08:14] <zeeshan|2> thats one factor :P
[20:08:50] <roycroft> but when i was taking machining classes, all those macho guys were ripping through things at lightning speed
[20:08:53] <roycroft> and their work was crap
[20:09:09] <roycroft> i'd rather go slow and be accurate than make crap quickly
[20:09:09] <zeeshan|2> one of the questions is
[20:09:16] <zeeshan|2> determine how long it'll take to machine part
[20:09:24] <zeeshan|2> after they figure our rpm, and feed rate
[20:09:34] <zeeshan|2> and know the dimensions to hit and number of passes
[20:09:39] <zeeshan|2> that should be easy i think
[20:09:49] <ssi> I hope they have to calculate the number of passes!
[20:09:52] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: depends
[20:10:02] <zeeshan|2> ssi yes
[20:10:11] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: i was trying to tell these guys/girls
[20:10:20] <zeeshan|2> when you specify a +/- 0.001" tolerance
[20:10:23] <roycroft> and then there were the welders taking their required machining classes
[20:10:27] <zeeshan|2> there should be a _damn_ good reason why
[20:10:32] <Tom_itx> you can get your cad cam to do some of that for you
[20:10:43] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: they gotta do it manually
[20:10:43] <Tom_itx> if you bother to tweak it
[20:10:48] <zeeshan|2> to appreciate cam
[20:11:08] <ssi> zeeshan|2: yeah there's nothing more infuriating than engineers who annotate tight tolerances arbitrarily
[20:11:15] <ssi> the only thing you can do about it is make sure to bill them for the tolerances
[20:11:18] <roycroft> accurate = to tolerance
[20:11:23] <roycroft> it's not an absolute
[20:11:26] <Tom_itx> do you have approximate tool change times etc for them?
[20:11:39] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: not getting that advanced
[20:11:43] <zeeshan|2> it's literally an end mill
[20:11:49] <ssi> Tom_itx: newer machines advertise chip to chip toolchange times
[20:11:52] <zeeshan|2> thats removing .25" of material
[20:11:58] <zeeshan|2> out of a 4"x4" piece
[20:12:09] <Tom_itx> ssi, i can believe that
[20:12:19] <Tom_itx> just stay outta their way!
[20:12:35] <zeeshan|2> the school cnc outputs "machining time"
[20:12:36] <ssi> heheh yep
[20:12:41] <zeeshan|2> which i think it outputs based on your feedrate
[20:12:44] <zeeshan|2> and total movement.
[20:12:55] <Tom_itx> those ones with the swing arm are kinda scary sometimes
[20:13:01] <Tom_itx> especially with long tooling
[20:13:03] <zeeshan|2> i'd like to see that in linuxcnc
[20:13:11] <zeeshan|2> if it isnt there already :P
[20:13:27] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2, i do tool time and overall time on mine
[20:13:38] <zeeshan|2> is there an option to display it in axis?
[20:14:11] <Tom_itx> yup
[20:14:38] <ssi> Tom_itx: haas vf2 on their site says 4.2sec tool-to-tool, and 4.5sec chip-to-chip
[20:14:51] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: how to do? :D
[20:15:22] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/screenshot.png
[20:15:33] <Tom_itx> gawd my server is slow tonight..
[20:15:35] <zeeshan|2> did you use the 'time' component|?
[20:15:53] <Tom_itx> 'current time' and 'overall time'
[20:16:00] <ssi> Tom_itx: I've been wanting to add that
[20:16:05] <Tom_itx> overall includes tool changes
[20:16:11] <ssi> also would be interesting to have a total hours meter
[20:16:15] <ssi> like lifetime hours
[20:16:17] <Tom_itx> current is just from run to stop
[20:16:26] <Tom_itx> someone else was doing that..
[20:16:30] <Tom_itx> forget who
[20:16:41] <Tom_itx> or if they were successful
[20:17:06] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2, it's all in my configs there
[20:17:39] <zeeshan|2> link to configs
[20:17:42] * zeeshan|2 will steal your code!
[20:18:00] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/
[20:18:36] <Tom_itx> also modified hal_manualtoolchange for a hard button on my pendant
[20:18:40] <zeeshan|2> yea youre using the time component
[20:18:43] <ssi> I've been trying to start putting my configs in git
[20:18:46] <ssi> I think so far only the laser is there
[20:18:47] <Tom_itx> which btw made it into ver 2.6
[20:19:28] <ssi> https://github.com/ianmcmahon/linuxcnc_configs/tree/master/laser in case it helps anyone :P
[20:19:34] <ssi> there's a lot of oddball stuff in there
[20:19:42] <ssi> the pulser and raster stuff for instance
[20:19:45] <zeeshan|2> IAN
[20:19:48] <Tom_itx> i don't know git well enough
[20:19:55] <ssi> wat
[20:20:04] <zeeshan|2> now i know your names.
[20:20:12] <ssi> wasn't a big secret :)
[20:20:24] <zeeshan|2> cinci will be miss ing one day
[20:20:25] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[20:20:35] <ssi> don't forget my house is guarded by cnc laser turrets
[20:20:39] <zeeshan|2> hah
[20:20:44] <zeeshan|2> that work at 2000 ipm?
[20:20:51] <ssi> oh way faster than that
[20:21:01] <Tom_itx> i use google earth to target your place
[20:21:08] <zeeshan|2> haha
[20:21:18] <ssi> also the cinci isn't going at my house :)
[20:21:34] <malcom2073> Psh, silly Tom_itx, he'll try to attack and get slapped with a google earth eula violation and be harmless :P
[20:21:51] <Tom_itx> heh
[20:22:19] <malcom2073> "No georeferenced weapons using google earth" <- would be funny
[20:22:48] <malcom2073> Is there any equivalant to that sidebar on axis (done using python modules) with tkemc?
[20:22:59] <Tom_itx> probably
[20:23:12] <Tom_itx> i haven't ventured there
[20:23:36] <malcom2073> I'm trying really hard to avoid using linuxcncrsh with a wrapper remotely heh
[20:23:49] <malcom2073> so I'm using tkemc over x tunneling
[20:24:31] <ssi> that looks too much like linuxcrash
[20:24:45] <malcom2073> heh
[20:24:52] <malcom2073> I think it's linuxcncrsh? it's the telnet client
[20:24:56] <ssi> yea
[20:24:56] <malcom2073> server
[20:24:58] <malcom2073> thing
[20:31:24] <Tom_itx> ssi you gonna carve your pumpkins with your laser?
[20:31:29] <ssi> ooooooo
[20:31:30] <ssi> yes
[20:33:40] <ssi> Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwG2xoksJsk
[20:39:25] <malcom2073> ssi: That's awesome
[20:39:45] <malcom2073> What does the back half of the pumpkin look like afterwards?
[20:40:25] <Tom_itx> you can see bits of it floating in the water
[20:42:33] <malcom2073> I wish I had a water cutter, but really I have no real reason for one heh
[20:42:51] <PetefromTn_> they are pretty nasty dirty machines really...
[20:43:09] <malcom2073> I imagine they make quite the mess. I Might be picking up some big rails and screws though, be able to get myself together a 4x8 router
[20:43:43] <PetefromTn_> I would much rather have a nice CNC router with say a plasma cutter head. dual purpose would be sweet.
[20:43:54] <Tom_itx> edm
[20:44:30] <PetefromTn_> the shop I worked in recently had a waterjet and damn was that thing nasty. Makes HUGE barrels of snotlike rusty goo that must be disposed of.
[20:44:40] <malcom2073> imagine a wooden waste board wouldn't do well with a plasma cutter :)
[20:45:06] <malcom2073> buddy of mine works at a HVAC place, they got a 4x8 plasma cutter, it's pretty awesome
[20:45:08] <PetefromTn_> I figured on making a removable tray with the steel mesh in it
[20:45:12] <malcom2073> yeah
[20:45:33] <PetefromTn_> sit on top of the router and try to work near the inside as much as possible.
[20:45:59] <malcom2073> Maybe havet he mesh below the wasteboard, and have the wasteboard removable?
[20:46:04] <malcom2073> or more easily removable
[20:47:22] <PetefromTn_> I think it would be easier to make the trap and mesh removable and have a more solid foundation for a flat router bed that could hopefully have a vacuum hold down system later on.
[20:47:46] <malcom2073> ah true
[20:48:25] <PetefromTn_> I would most likely use the router part of it more than the plasma but it sure would be nice to have a dual purpose setup.
[20:49:20] <PetefromTn_> it would be easy enough to make a stainless steel flat tray that you could pump the water out of before you remove it and maybe hang it on the wall when not in use or even under the table possibly
[20:49:52] <malcom2073> ah yeah
[20:49:54] <PetefromTn_> it would for sure take time to setup and switch between the two machines but that is typical or dual purpose anything unfortunately.
[20:50:33] <PetefromTn_> personally I do not have room for a large CNC router AND a CNC plasma table in the shop here so I would have to deal with it.
[20:50:57] <PetefromTn_> This is a project I have considered pretty seriously. I will probably build something like this at some point.
[20:51:23] <PetefromTn_> right now I am still unfinished with my Cincinatti arrow 500 VMC retrofit.
[20:51:37] <Tom_itx> getting closer though
[20:51:44] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[20:51:57] <PetefromTn_> the spindle orient is the next big item on the agenda.
[20:52:35] <PetefromTn_> I am trying to learn something of this programming but sometimes I feel it is pretty hopeless for me since I have zero programming experience and even less Linux experience
[21:02:07] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv0eibJ4s2M&list=UUj_XaV1ss-qdD-lPUtTEcXw this is interesting albeit simplistic version of what I am talking about.
[21:03:36] <Cobra___> hwllo im new here
[21:03:48] <zeeshan|2> am i dick for asking the students a question like this:
[21:03:54] <zeeshan|2> https://www.stairsystemstore.com/image/cache/data/fitings_accessory/SS0127-500x500.jpg
[21:05:08] <zeeshan|2> "A sphere needs a hole drilled through its center. Explain 2 methods to hold the sphere on either a lathe or a milling machine in preparation for drilling."
[21:05:36] <XXCoder> cast sphere with said hole.
[21:05:41] <zeeshan|2> no
[21:05:45] <zeeshan|2> it already exists :P
[21:05:57] <CaptHindsight> ball holder and ball vise
[21:06:06] <XXCoder> heh well would do some custom jaws probably
[21:06:20] <zeeshan|2> do you think its a fair question to ask them?
[21:06:42] <XXCoder> not if you allow partial credits
[21:06:50] <XXCoder> er it is fair I mean
[21:06:53] <zeeshan|2> yea they always get part marks
[21:07:00] <zeeshan|2> it allows them to explore their imagination
[21:07:03] <zeeshan|2> on how to hold it
[21:08:09] <XXCoder> yeah
[21:09:32] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking about how i'd do it
[21:09:51] <zeeshan|2> it'd take a piece of flat bar
[21:09:59] <zeeshan|2> shove it in the mill vise
[21:10:25] <zeeshan|2> drill a hole in the flar bar
[21:10:29] <zeeshan|2> take some tape
[21:10:42] <zeeshan|2> (dobule sided)
[21:10:45] <zeeshan|2> shove it in hole
[21:10:46] <zeeshan|2> put sphere on it
[21:10:48] <zeeshan|2> drill hole
[21:11:16] <CaptHindsight> what other tools are available to the student?
[21:11:21] <zeeshan|2> anything
[21:11:26] <zeeshan|2> that their imagination can come up with
[21:11:31] <zeeshan|2> they're only allowed to use a lathe or a mill
[21:12:51] <CaptHindsight> so tack welding the balls to a plate would not be possible?
[21:12:51] <ssi> vise jaws with perpendicular V grooves would work pretty well
[21:13:12] <zeeshan|2> ssi
[21:13:17] <ssi> want
[21:13:17] <zeeshan|2> yes
[21:13:18] <ssi> wat
[21:13:25] <ssi> yes
[21:13:27] <zeeshan|2> now help me come up with more questions
[21:13:29] <zeeshan|2> to ask them
[21:13:31] <XXCoder> ssi yeah double v would work too in order to make sure ball dont move forward in or out or sideways in any direction
[21:13:31] <ssi> ok
[21:13:46] <XXCoder> something similiar would work for lathe
[21:13:53] <zeeshan|2> guys
[21:13:56] <zeeshan|2> its just a drill operation
[21:13:56] <ssi> "how long can ssi work without eating burgers before he falls over"
[21:13:59] <ssi> so hungry :(
[21:14:01] <zeeshan|2> you could shove that shit on there with taPE
[21:14:07] <zeeshan|2> hold it by hand
[21:14:09] <zeeshan|2> call it a day
[21:14:12] <ssi> heh
[21:14:16] <ssi> sounds like a good way to drill your hand
[21:14:18] <CaptHindsight> "You're driving a bus, at the first stop you pick up 2 lathes .....
[21:14:47] <XXCoder> hold using hand and use hand drill ;)
[21:15:08] <CaptHindsight> .... whats the name of the bus driver?
[21:15:39] <ssi> "You need to drill a 2-1/4" hole in a piece of 0.032" alclad 2024-T6. You have available to you a hand drill, a $45 harbor freight drill press, and a cheap shitty fly cutter"
[21:15:49] <ssi> ask them real world questions :)
[21:15:57] <ssi> "How do you accomplish your goal and keep all your fingers
[21:15:59] <ssi> ?"
[21:16:32] <CaptHindsight> do you A, Quit and find a new job. B, Spend you own money of better tools. C,....
[21:16:47] <CaptHindsight> of/on
[21:17:23] <ssi> what would be "better tools" in this scenario?
[21:17:30] <ssi> greenlee knockout punches are about the best option
[21:17:37] <ssi> but keeping them on hand in every size is prohibitively expensive
[21:19:59] <jdh> hand drill and a file
[21:21:52] <ssi> ug 10pm alreayd
[21:21:55] <ssi> gotta eat something pronto
[21:24:47] <roycroft> the only remotely safe way to do that with the tools described would be to hand old the work on the drill press table, chuck up the fly cutter, lower it so the cutter is just touching the work, lock the spindle depth, rotate it by hand, and continue slowly lowering and locking the spindle while hand turning it
[21:25:03] <roycroft> it would take a long time to make the cut
[21:25:33] <zeeshan|2> back
[21:25:54] <roycroft> hand it to your boss an hour later, and say "you could have bought some decent tooling and fixures with that hour's wages"
[21:26:06] <roycroft> then collect your last paycheck and move on
[21:26:23] <zeeshan|2> rofl ssi
[21:26:26] <zeeshan|2> @ hf drill
[21:26:31] <zeeshan|2> we dont have hf here :D
[21:27:07] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: wuss
[21:27:18] <zeeshan|2> i'd hold the aluminum with my mouth
[21:27:26] <zeeshan|2> and the drill with my feet
[21:27:32] <zeeshan|2> and make this 2.25 hole
[21:29:03] <archivist> a clock maker would remind you of a shellac chuck to hold balls and funny shaped objects
[21:29:44] <zeeshan|2> whats a shellac chuck
[21:29:49] <zeeshan|2> looks like a piece with lines on it
[21:29:52] <zeeshan|2> round piece
[21:30:30] <roycroft> no shellac
[21:30:44] <roycroft> i'm working off the given list of tools
[21:35:22] <zeeshan|2> heres another question
[21:35:24] <zeeshan|2> i wonder if its fair
[21:36:20] <zeeshan|2> "Pipe flanges are typically welded to large pipes and used to connect pipes together. Explain a detailed manufacturing job plan on creating one of these pipe flanges"
[21:36:21] <zeeshan|2> http://b2bimg.bridgat.com/files/flangeflangespipe_flangesmetalwork_machining.jpg
[21:39:38] <Tom_itx> ask them how to cut the cube in a cube in a cube thing...
[21:39:51] <ssi> turner's cube
[21:40:01] <Tom_itx> yeah i forgot the name..
[21:41:02] <zeeshan|2> haha
[21:41:07] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2 ask them why it should be done on a mill or a lathe and why?
[21:41:08] <zeeshan|2> thats too much work for the poor students
[21:41:33] <Tom_itx> probably quicker done on a lathe
[21:41:34] <zeeshan|2> the poor students are already being asked
[21:41:40] <zeeshan|2> how to use a lathe to turn a cube
[21:41:41] <zeeshan|2> haha
[21:41:46] <zeeshan|2> that fucks with most peoples minds
[21:41:48] <Tom_itx> heh
[21:42:15] <ssi> lots of careful setups and facing
[21:42:29] <zeeshan|2> OR JUST START WITH A CUBE!!
[21:42:29] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:42:53] <ssi> well if that's on the table
[21:42:58] <zeeshan|2> i wonder if the turner cube is an answerable question
[21:42:59] <zeeshan|2> in 45 min
[21:43:00] <ssi> ask them how to make a million dollars as a machinist
[21:43:22] <ssi> start with ten million
[21:43:58] <zeeshan|2> haha
[21:44:30] <zeeshan|2> i need one more question
[21:44:32] <zeeshan|2> :/
[21:45:10] <ssi> how many chucks could a lathe chuck chuck if a lathe chuck could chuck chucks?
[21:45:21] <zeeshan|2> hahaha
[21:45:50] <zeeshan|2> for some reason the student slaugh
[21:45:51] <zeeshan|2> when i go
[21:46:00] <zeeshan|2> "Righty tighty lefty loosey"
[21:46:03] <zeeshan|2> or
[21:46:10] <zeeshan|2> cut twice, measure once
[21:46:12] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[21:46:51] <ssi> dude if you have to teach them righty tighty lefty loosey, I'd be afraid to turn them loose on machine tools
[21:47:04] <Tom_itx> just don't cut your finger on the 2nd cut
[21:47:05] <zeeshan|2> you'd be suprised dude
[21:47:14] <zeeshan|2> out of the 8-9 groups ive had so far
[21:47:18] <zeeshan|2> w/ 3-4 students each
[21:47:24] <zeeshan|2> 3 knew which way to turn to loosen
[21:47:36] <zeeshan|2> they all know right hand rule
[21:47:38] <ssi> that's awful
[21:47:43] <zeeshan|2> they just have never applied it to practice
[21:47:57] <zeeshan|2> so if you show them the right handle rule and show how the thumb points in the direction you want the bolt to move
[21:48:08] <zeeshan|2> and the fingers point in the rotational direction
[21:48:09] <zeeshan|2> they get it
[21:48:25] <zeeshan|2> they use right hand rule all the time to setup coordinate systems
[21:48:35] <zeeshan|2> and solve forces/vectors/displacements
[21:48:40] <ssi> this is why I hate college kids
[21:48:47] <Tom_itx> turner's cube is probably just as easily done on a lathe as it is on a mill
[21:48:50] <ssi> if you interviewed random people on the street
[21:48:58] <ssi> and asked them to explain the right hand rule of coordinate systems
[21:49:05] <ssi> and asked them if they knew which way to turn a bolt
[21:49:09] <zeeshan|2> haha
[21:49:10] <ssi> what do you suppose the responses would be?
[21:49:16] <zeeshan|2> whats a bolt
[21:49:19] <zeeshan|2> whats a coordinate
[21:49:21] <ssi> um
[21:49:34] <Tom_itx> when does a screw become a bolt?
[21:49:36] <ssi> maybe it's diffrent in canuckistan, but in MURICA, folks here know how to run a bolt
[21:49:56] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: when you find out it's not a she, but a he
[21:49:58] <ssi> Tom_itx: I think technically a screw is meant to turn and a bolt isn't
[21:50:00] <roycroft> if you interviewed random people on the street and asked them what 5x4 is you would not get a majority of correct answers
[21:50:11] <zeeshan|2> haha ssi
[21:50:17] <zeeshan|2> proud american
[21:50:33] <ssi> Tom_itx: or said another way, bolts are used with nuts, and screws aren't
[21:50:39] <zeeshan|2> i dont think Tom_itx got my job about the screw and the bolt
[21:50:41] <ssi> so a machine screw that goes into a tapped hole or nutplate is a screw
[21:50:43] <roycroft> i bet 98% of muricans don't know the difference between a screw and a bolt
[21:50:53] <zeeshan|2> none of you guys are laughing :(
[21:50:57] <zeeshan|2> i thought it was a good joke
[21:51:00] * zeeshan|2 fails at comedy
[21:51:11] <ssi> roycroft: I don't think that's exclusive to muricans
[21:51:16] <ssi> it's a subtle distinction :P
[21:51:17] <toastyde1th> nearly any person on the street is able to ask a question that any other person is not able to answer
[21:51:25] <zeeshan|2> ssi: your theory is failed
[21:51:34] <ssi> no, no it's not
[21:51:34] <zeeshan|2> socket head cap screw
[21:51:39] <zeeshan|2> hex head cap screw
[21:51:42] <zeeshan|2> they has nuts!
[21:52:01] <zeeshan|2> screw and bolt
[21:52:04] <zeeshan|2> depends on if she's hot or not
[21:52:14] <zeeshan|2> if she's 500 lb you bolt
[21:52:20] <ssi> yeah we get it
[21:52:21] <zeeshan|2> if she's a cutie you screw
[21:52:24] <zeeshan|2> FINALLY
[21:52:26] <ssi> it's not funny this time either
[21:52:30] <zeeshan|2> :-(
[21:53:11] <ssi> :)
[21:53:12] <zeeshan|2> i actually looked at why some things are called screws
[21:53:16] <zeeshan|2> and some things are called bolts
[21:53:22] <zeeshan|2> its a historical thing
[21:53:51] <Tom_itx> it was just a conversation starter for me.
[21:54:05] <ssi> The words "bolt" and "screw" are ambiguous. Bolt or screw is not a physical thing; it is a matter of how a physical thing is used. However, there are those who have set about trying to define these words as precise engineering terms. The very nature of the common English use of these words renders that impossible.
[21:54:22] <Tom_itx> both could be noun or verb
[21:54:24] <ssi> Tom_itx: it worked :)
[21:54:54] <zeeshan|2> i mean im sure you guys have said this
[21:54:56] <zeeshan|2> "screw in that bolt"
[21:54:59] <zeeshan|2> not
[21:55:02] <zeeshan|2> "Bolt in that bolt"
[21:55:09] <zeeshan|2> :)
[21:55:19] <Tom_itx> thread that on there will ya
[21:55:29] <zeeshan|2> see threading to me soudns like
[21:55:32] <ssi> zeeshan|2: yeah, but not to canadian engineering students
[21:55:33] <zeeshan|2> you're asking me to put a die through it
[21:55:47] <Tom_itx> or a sewing class...
[21:55:55] <ssi> cause in that case you'd have to say "take that bolt and insert it into the hole and using a clockwise motion in accordance with the right hand rule please apply torque to stated value"
[21:55:58] <zeeshan|2> this is why they came up with standard s like ansi 14.5 y
[21:56:06] <zeeshan|2> to ensure you have a communication standard where everyones talking about the same part
[21:56:20] <Tom_itx> damn good nobody needs help with linuxcnc tonight
[21:56:25] <zeeshan|2> ssi it's not an american thing or a canadian thing
[21:56:30] <zeeshan|2> it's just general engineering school thing
[21:56:42] <ssi> yeah, engineering schools are full up with morons that have been taught things
[21:56:54] <zeeshan|2> they're not all necessairly morons
[21:56:57] <zeeshan|2> they're just in their world of books
[21:56:58] <ssi> sure they are
[21:56:59] <zeeshan|2> and theory
[21:57:07] <ssi> if they weren't morons, they'd have gotten a job and made money
[21:57:07] <zeeshan|2> and need to get exposed to practice
[21:57:18] <ssi> instead they're paying someone to stuff the knowledge in them so they can fake their way into a career
[21:57:25] <ssi> one day they'll get some experience and maybe not be morons
[21:57:37] <zeeshan|2> well the whole point of engineering school
[21:57:41] <zeeshan|2> was to get people ready for their license
[21:57:57] <Tom_itx> which is just another piece of paper
[21:58:05] <zeeshan|2> i will disagree to that
[21:58:12] <ssi> yeah, gubmint regulation of "smarts", hooray
[21:58:16] <zeeshan|2> the fact you need a license
[21:58:18] <zeeshan|2> has made things safer
[21:58:26] <ssi> do you need to know which way to turn a bolt to get a PE license?
[21:58:28] <zeeshan|2> back in the 1850s early 1900s
[21:58:42] <zeeshan|2> there was so many deaths related to engineering stuff
[21:58:49] <zeeshan|2> there still are, but its a lot less now
[21:58:51] <zeeshan|2> ssi no
[21:58:58] <ssi> well thank god for that
[21:59:00] <zeeshan|2> but you do need to be competent enough to know when something is unsafe
[21:59:01] <roycroft> a requirement that engineers do field work in the trades for a year as a requirement of getting a pe license would make things even safer
[21:59:03] <ssi> or else we'd be all out of engineers and stuff
[21:59:08] <ssi> roycroft: wouldn't it?
[21:59:17] <roycroft> and would also help keep the cost of making stuff down
[21:59:17] <Tom_itx> roycroft i agree
[21:59:22] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: theres 5 cateogries to satisfy
[21:59:27] <ssi> in my OH SO HUMBLE opinion, folks ought to have a year or two in the trades before attending school
[21:59:35] <roycroft> that would be ideal, ssi
[21:59:39] <ssi> then they'd have an idea of what to learn when they're in school
[21:59:48] <zeeshan|2> see you guys are thinking
[21:59:54] <Tom_itx> the ones that survive should then be given books
[21:59:56] <roycroft> but first we need to make the professors work in the trades :)
[21:59:57] <zeeshan|2> engineering is easy!
[21:59:59] <ssi> college kids carry the highschool thinking of 'why the hell will I ever need trig?'
[22:00:02] <zeeshan|2> they're the pencil pushes
[22:00:05] <zeeshan|2> not the tool pushers :P
[22:00:19] <roycroft> mathematics is the language of the universe
[22:00:21] <zeeshan|2> 5 categories to get your 4 years of experience:
[22:00:37] <ssi> roycroft: yeah but nobody realizes that until they try to do something in the real world and fail because they don't have enough math
[22:00:38] <zeeshan|2> application of theory, practical experience, mangagement of engineering, communication skills, awarness of social implications of engineering
[22:00:48] <roycroft> if you want to understand the universe, and you have to understand it to deliberately alter it to obtain desired results, you need to learn to speak math
[22:01:02] <ssi> zeeshan|2: I think you have the mistaken idea that this channel is full of machinists
[22:01:07] <ssi> nobody here is a machinist
[22:01:16] <zeeshan|2> ??
[22:01:23] <ssi> machinists are guys that get somewhere north of minimum wage to operate someone else's tools
[22:01:31] <roycroft> if we were machinists we would be machining during the day and drinking beer at night
[22:01:31] <zeeshan|2> no
[22:01:32] <ssi> everyone here is an engineer
[22:01:34] <zeeshan|2> that's a machine operator
[22:01:34] <roycroft> and not hanging out on irc
[22:01:41] <ssi> machine builders are engineers
[22:01:42] <ssi> not machinists
[22:02:06] <ssi> machinist is a good skill to have to be a machine builder
[22:02:06] <zeeshan|2> ssi
[22:02:12] <ssi> but all machinists cannot build machines
[22:02:13] <zeeshan|2> if iwere to ask you to tell me the deflectio nof a cutting tool
[22:02:18] <zeeshan|2> based on the forces the tip was seeing
[22:02:19] <roycroft> this is a kind of preaching to the choir channel when it comes to engineers having practical experience
[22:02:20] <zeeshan|2> could you figure it out?
[22:02:25] <ssi> of course
[22:02:34] <zeeshan|2> most engineering students could answer that question in 5 min
[22:02:35] <zeeshan|2> to 10
[22:02:39] <zeeshan|2> mech eng that is
[22:02:43] <Tom_itx> wtf did i start...
[22:02:49] <zeeshan|2> the point is
[22:02:55] <ssi> yeah, especially since they're actively studying it
[22:02:58] <zeeshan|2> you n eed theory and practical experpeince
[22:02:59] <ssi> that proves nothing
[22:03:03] <zeeshan|2> to do something right
[22:03:13] <roycroft> and a little bit of intelligence
[22:03:14] <zeeshan|2> doing some joe schmoe method might work great o na cnc machine build
[22:03:34] <zeeshan|2> but designing a building to ensure a contaminant leakage
[22:03:37] <zeeshan|2> doesnt kille veryone
[22:03:39] <zeeshan|2> is _engineering_ work
[22:03:46] <ssi> you realize you're back on your condescending prick streak, right?
[22:03:54] <zeeshan|2> ?!?!
[22:04:12] <ssi> a) you have zero idea what anyone's background in here is
[22:04:14] <zeeshan|2> you're condescending engineers
[22:04:19] <ssi> no, no I'm not
[22:04:21] <zeeshan|2> yes you are.
[22:04:23] <ssi> I have nothing but respect for engineers
[22:04:27] <zeeshan|2> HAHAHA
[22:04:27] <zeeshan|2> okay
[22:04:28] <ssi> it's engineering students I don't like :)
[22:04:39] <roycroft> i'm actually a barber
[22:04:46] <roycroft> but i hate cutting hair
[22:04:52] <roycroft> i always wanted to be a lumberjack
[22:04:53] <zeeshan|2> it's really easy to talk shit about a particular group of people
[22:04:59] <zeeshan|2> by making lame assumptions of what you think they know
[22:05:07] <ssi> yes, which is what you're doing
[22:05:08] <zeeshan|2> and i never assumed who anyone in here is
[22:05:10] <ssi> 22:43 < zeeshan|2> doing some joe schmoe method might work great o na cnc machine build
[22:05:11] <XXCoder> http://sploid.gizmodo.com/ice-cube-turns-into-perfect-sphere-using-cool-brute-for-1640648814
[22:05:13] <zeeshan|2> everyone has their own specialities
[22:05:18] <XXCoder> I wonder if its easy to make with cnc
[22:05:31] <zeeshan|2> ssi most people in here do not sit down
[22:05:35] <ssi> you realize I build airplanes for funsies, right?
[22:05:36] <zeeshan|2> and calculate the forces their machine is ggoing to see.
[22:05:39] <ssi> think there's no engineering in that?
[22:05:48] <zeeshan|2> thats why i made that comment
[22:06:02] <ssi> not to mention EE
[22:06:04] <ssi> and compE
[22:06:05] <ssi> and CS
[22:06:09] <ssi> my ME isn't super solid
[22:06:13] <ssi> but it's probably better than half your students
[22:06:20] <zeeshan|2> whats your educational background?
[22:06:28] <ssi> what does it matter?
[22:06:42] <zeeshan|2> why are you taking my comments as a target towards you?
[22:06:46] <ssi> I'm not
[22:06:51] <zeeshan|2> you are..
[22:06:53] <XXCoder> ssi could you make those ice shaper thing? heh
[22:06:54] <zeeshan|2> 22:46:20] <ssi> you realize I build airplanes for funsies, right?
[22:07:03] <zeeshan|2> it's like you have something to prove
[22:07:03] <ssi> 22:43 < zeeshan|2> doing some joe schmoe method might work great o na cnc machine build
[22:07:06] <ssi> 22:44 < zeeshan|2> but designing a building to ensure a contaminant leakage
[22:07:09] <ssi> 22:44 < zeeshan|2> doesnt kille veryone
[22:07:11] <ssi> 22:44 < zeeshan|2> is _engineering_ work
[22:07:24] <ssi> your attitude is that you're the only person in the world qualified in any way
[22:07:27] <zeeshan|2> what dont you understand about that?
[22:07:41] <zeeshan|2> you can make mistakes on a cnc build, and the trial and error approach works
[22:07:49] <zeeshan|2> but when people's lives are at risk
[22:07:52] <ssi> yes, and my point is
[22:07:53] <ssi> again
[22:07:53] <zeeshan|2> the trial and error approach doesnt work
[22:07:57] <ssi> I build airplanes for funsies
[22:08:00] <zeeshan|2> you have to go back the theory and validation
[22:08:03] <ssi> how much trial and error do you suppose works there?
[22:08:13] <ssi> and are not people's lives at risk?
[22:08:15] <ssi> even if it's only mine
[22:08:34] <zeeshan|2> ssi: you're right, you need to have some competency
[22:08:35] <zeeshan|2> to do that
[22:08:40] <zeeshan|2> and the trial and error approach doesnt work there
[22:08:45] <zeeshan|2> but this is not about you
[22:08:47] <zeeshan|2> or me
[22:08:58] <ssi> oh thank you master of engineering for granting the possibility that I might have some glimmer of competency
[22:09:05] <ssi> I can die a happy man
[22:09:22] <zeeshan|2> ssi
[22:09:28] <zeeshan|2> could you design a plane for bombardier?
[22:09:33] <zeeshan|2> or lockheed?
[22:09:39] <ssi> can any one man?
[22:09:47] <ssi> given enough time, sure
[22:09:48] <zeeshan|2> i know enough people at bombardier
[22:09:59] <zeeshan|2> theres no way they'd hire someone with no degree
[22:10:09] <ssi> what makes you think I have no degree?
[22:10:09] <zeeshan|2> infact most of their employees have either a masters or phd
[22:10:23] <zeeshan|2> you defeinitely dont have an engineering degree
[22:10:25] <zeeshan|2> wi th the way you talk
[22:10:31] <ssi> why, because I denigrate it?
[22:10:36] <Tom_itx> lots of ppl have worked in engineering with no degree
[22:10:38] <ssi> that's hardly proof
[22:10:56] <Tom_itx> not so much anymore...
[22:11:00] <ssi> I could line up five people for you that I know personally with masters degrees or better who have the same attitudes about engineering students :)
[22:11:19] <zeeshan|2> like i said earlier
[22:11:21] <XXCoder> degree papers is awesome
[22:11:23] <zeeshan|2> engineering students are pencil pushers
[22:11:23] <XXCoder> for wiping
[22:11:28] <zeeshan|2> not tool pushers
[22:11:35] <zeeshan|2> with enough time, they can do both
[22:11:38] <XXCoder> its very good on helping you get in door
[22:11:43] <XXCoder> besides that...
[22:12:00] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: depends on the degree
[22:12:03] <Tom_itx> too often they get in the door too soon
[22:12:11] <XXCoder> Nah
[22:12:15] <XXCoder> no exceptions
[22:12:26] <ssi> Tom_itx: we won't hire anyone with a degree anymore unless they have work experience
[22:12:30] <ssi> they're USELESS fresh out of school
[22:12:44] <ssi> actually they're worse than useless
[22:12:46] <zeeshan|2> they need guidance
[22:12:54] <ssi> kids without a degree don't assume they already know everything
[22:13:02] <ssi> fresh gatech grads are the absolute worst
[22:13:06] <LeelooMinai> That's kind of ironic
[22:13:08] <Tom_itx> they should be required to apprentice like alot of trades
[22:13:21] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: they do!
[22:13:29] <zeeshan|2> in canada, they cant have their license
[22:13:33] <XXCoder> I'm on internship running cnc machine
[22:13:36] <zeeshan|2> without working under a professional engineer for 4 years
[22:13:42] <XXCoder> this week is first week I'm working on my own
[22:13:50] <zeeshan|2> thats their "apprentencship"
[22:13:53] <Tom_itx> XXCoder are you a pencil pusher?
[22:13:55] <Tom_itx> :D
[22:13:56] <XXCoder> couple weeks too early but well work had couple issues
[22:14:17] <roycroft> i agree with that, ssi
[22:14:33] <XXCoder> tom I started with It and CS degrees
[22:14:38] <zeeshan|2> the know it all attitude
[22:14:39] <roycroft> when i get fresh graduates it takes six months of unlearning before i can start teaching them things
[22:14:45] <zeeshan|2> again is dependient on the person
[22:14:47] <XXCoder> 4 years no flipping job
[22:15:13] <ssi> roycroft: that's if you can get them to listen at all :P
[22:15:40] <zeeshan|2> knowing your own strengths and weaknesses
[22:15:45] <zeeshan|2> is a good thing :)
[22:15:51] <zeeshan|2> my weakness: electronics :(
[22:15:59] <zeeshan|2> no matter how much i read about transistors
[22:16:01] <zeeshan|2> i just dont get it
[22:16:02] <ssi> zeeshan|2: yet you tried to lecture me about electronics!
[22:16:11] <zeeshan|2> ssi wat
[22:16:14] <ssi> :P
[22:16:24] <Tom_itx> my only strength is i don't know my weaknesses
[22:16:26] <zeeshan|2> it musta been electrical power distribution related
[22:16:28] <ssi> Tom_itx: :D
[22:16:29] <zeeshan|2> im strong on that
[22:16:59] <ssi> zeeshan|2: no, you were trying to school me on what happens in the output caps of a dc power supply, when you were trying to fabricate a reason why I'm an idiot for switching my power supplies on estop
[22:17:12] <ssi> but it was clear you had approximately zero clue what you were talking about
[22:17:25] <ssi> didn't stop you from being convinced I was wrong!
[22:17:29] <ssi> "frequently wrong, but never in doubt"
[22:17:31] <zeeshan|2> thats where you're absolutely retarded
[22:17:34] <zeeshan|2> bahaha
[22:17:38] <zeeshan|2> you need to go back and read that convo
[22:17:45] <zeeshan|2> i was ASKING you how they work
[22:17:48] <zeeshan|2> not tryign to SCHOOL you
[22:17:49] <zeeshan|2> wow
[22:17:51] <zeeshan|2> just wow
[22:18:00] * Tom_itx sends the two of you to your respective corners for a time out
[22:18:01] <ssi> see, even now, frequently wrong but never in doubt :)
[22:18:24] <zeeshan|2> we concluded theres 2 way to do those things
[22:18:25] <zeeshan|2> maybe more
[22:18:30] <zeeshan|2> and i know why you did your way
[22:18:36] <zeeshan|2> and it makes 100% sense
[22:18:47] <zeeshan|2> you need to calm the fuck down
[22:19:06] <ssi> http://www.troll.me/images/walter/calmer-than-you-are.jpg
[22:21:08] <ssi> ok, back to home ec then
[22:22:19] <zeeshan|2> i think the 3rd question for these students should be something simpler
[22:22:25] <zeeshan|2> maybe like a pros and cons
[22:22:31] <zeeshan|2> for a) 2 flute vs 4 flute end mill
[22:22:49] <zeeshan|2> b) using a lathe to machine a round part vs mill
[22:23:01] <Tom_itx> just use a 3 flute all the time
[22:23:37] <zeeshan|2> whats so cool about the 3 flute end mills
[22:23:44] <zeeshan|2> ive read in literature they're great for aluminum
[22:23:47] <zeeshan|2> why i don't know
[22:23:51] <Tom_itx> i don't like em
[22:23:52] <roycroft> three is a cool number
[22:24:10] <zeeshan|2> a machine shop a visited
[22:24:15] <XXCoder> my work uses 3 pretty much all time
[22:24:16] <roycroft> i've never used one
[22:24:18] <XXCoder> once a while 2
[22:24:23] <zeeshan|2> had an arsenal of 3 flute high helix cutters
[22:24:26] <Tom_itx> we used them sometimes
[22:24:27] <roycroft> but i could see how three could cut down on vibration
[22:24:29] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: do you know why?
[22:24:34] <XXCoder> no
[22:24:38] <zeeshan|2> ask them why
[22:24:38] <zeeshan|2> :D
[22:24:47] <XXCoder> typically 3/4 inch end mills
[22:24:59] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: arent 4 flutes equally distance
[22:25:01] <zeeshan|2> between cutting edges?
[22:25:07] <zeeshan|2> so less vibration too wit hthem?
[22:25:19] <XXCoder> actually think some 3/4 tend to be 4
[22:25:21] <roycroft> if you're cutting a slot with a 2 or 4 flute mill you're alternately hammering both sides and having zero contact with the sides of the slots
[22:25:28] <XXCoder> one breaker end mill has 54
[22:25:30] <XXCoder> er 5
[22:25:41] <roycroft> if you're using a 3 flute mill you have one flute in contact somewhere at all times
[22:26:02] <roycroft> assuming straight flutes
[22:26:06] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: OH
[22:26:07] <XXCoder> imange 54 flutes LOL
[22:26:09] <zeeshan|2> that makes a lot of sense
[22:26:19] <zeeshan|2> that actually might be the reason..
[22:26:35] <Tom_itx> roycroft most of the cutters we used were never straight
[22:26:42] <Tom_itx> mostly spiral flute
[22:27:05] <XXCoder> same for my work tom
[22:27:27] <Tom_itx> i think that helps with vibration too
[22:27:29] <zeeshan|2> spiral flute end mills look so sexy
[22:27:41] <zeeshan|2> i want to sleep with one in bed
[22:27:47] <toastyde1th> lol the reason 3 flute is the sweet spot is because of chip load vs chip clearance
[22:27:50] <zeeshan|2> (did i actually type that? :( )
[22:27:59] <toastyde1th> has nothing to do with hammering or anything else
[22:28:05] <zeeshan|2> i thought the spiral flute was for evactuation
[22:28:11] <XXCoder> tom not when end mill is 6 inches long
[22:28:16] <Tom_itx> it is zeeshan|2
[22:28:18] <XXCoder> its fucking "loud"
[22:28:25] <Tom_itx> well of course it is
[22:28:28] <XXCoder> its also apparently very loud
[22:28:34] <toastyde1th> spiral helps with many things, one of which is indeed chip evac
[22:28:41] <roycroft> i've never used 3 flute end mills before, nor even thought about them
[22:28:42] <zeeshan|2> toastyde1th: more details
[22:28:47] <zeeshan|2> on chip load vs chip clearance
[22:28:52] <roycroft> that was my first thought on why they might be desirable
[22:28:59] <zeeshan|2> chip load is the amount of material removed by each teeth
[22:29:02] <toastyde1th> you have very large chips in full width slotting
[22:29:04] <zeeshan|2> chip clearance is the distance between the flutes
[22:29:15] <zeeshan|2> i dont see how they're balanced in a 3 flute
[22:29:17] <XXCoder> tom heh it was so loud it scared new cnc mills head. thought machine was breaking!
[22:29:17] <toastyde1th> so you need a lot of gullet to take any appriciable cut and not gum the cutter up and break it
[22:29:32] <XXCoder> of course I cant hear it but it sure vibrates so hard
[22:29:38] <roycroft> i usually use 2 flute mills in aluminum
[22:29:39] <toastyde1th> the lower the number of teeth, the slower you have to go for a given chip load
[22:30:02] <XXCoder> but I got used to it because well all certain step for certain parts I make uses those very loud em.
[22:30:11] <toastyde1th> 3 flute endmills have 50% more teeth than 2 flute, and so if you are chip load limited (which is often the case) you wind up going 50% faster
[22:30:34] <toastyde1th> and yet if you go to 4 flutes, you often have to back off the chip load per tooth because the gullet can't support clearing a full width chip
[22:30:48] <XXCoder> interesting
[22:30:49] <toastyde1th> these are not hard and fast rules - they only apply to small diameter cutters.
[22:30:51] <zeeshan|2> toastyde1th:
[22:30:52] <zeeshan|2> ahhh
[22:30:55] <zeeshan|2> that makes a lot of sense.
[22:31:11] <XXCoder> I suppose thats why breaker EM has 5 flute. it breaks chips so it can do it?
[22:31:17] <toastyde1th> yep
[22:31:18] <XXCoder> it end to be pretty quick
[22:31:35] <toastyde1th> roughing/corncob endmills don't make big, fluffy chips that pack
[22:31:44] <Tom_itx> roughing EM generally have a fairly high helix too
[22:31:48] <toastyde1th> the problem with roughers is chip recutting
[22:31:52] <XXCoder> and 6 inches version of breaker EM is VERY "loud" too
[22:32:11] <zeeshan|2> im taking this one class next semester
[22:32:16] <zeeshan|2> "machinining dynamics"
[22:32:23] <zeeshan|2> its all about tooling and cutting forces
[22:32:33] <zeeshan|2> hopefully they cover more about the geometries of newer tools
[22:32:35] <toastyde1th> should be awesome
[22:32:42] <zeeshan|2> toastyde1th: you are very knowledgable :D
[22:32:44] <toastyde1th> if you are interested in tool geometry get Sandvik's book
[22:32:50] <zeeshan|2> which one
[22:32:53] <toastyde1th> they wrote a book the size of machinery's handbook
[22:32:54] <zeeshan|2> they've got tons of pdfs
[22:32:59] <toastyde1th> 1000+ pages
[22:33:06] <toastyde1th> all about tool geometry and cutting forces
[22:33:08] <toastyde1th> i forget the title
[22:34:01] <zeeshan|2> 3. Explain the advantages and disadvantages of the following (at least 3 per category): a) 2 flute and 4 flute end mill b) center cutting and non center cutting end mill c) carbide and high speed steel cutting tools d)
[22:34:05] <zeeshan|2> give me one more to ask!
[22:34:24] <toastyde1th> ?
[22:34:30] <zeeshan|2> making questions to ask the students
[22:34:32] <zeeshan|2> for the mill lab
[22:35:05] <zeeshan|2> maybe drill press vs lathe?
[22:35:06] <zeeshan|2> er
[22:35:09] <zeeshan|2> drill press vs milling machine
[22:35:13] <LeelooMinai> lol
[22:35:15] <zeeshan|2> drill press "least accurate" but faster
[22:35:24] <zeeshan|2> milling machine can side cut
[22:35:26] <zeeshan|2> i dunno
[22:35:30] <LeelooMinai> drill press vs lathe got me thinking there
[22:35:34] <roycroft> drill press generally more dangerous :)
[22:35:55] <zeeshan|2> those damn small parts drilling with the hand vise
[22:35:59] <zeeshan|2> great way to break a wrist
[22:36:23] <toastyde1th> i tend to set a t-slot stud in the drill press somewhere
[22:36:26] <roycroft> and that's exactly why
[22:36:28] <toastyde1th> and have the vise up against it
[22:36:36] <toastyde1th> downside, the drill bit will break
[22:36:39] <roycroft> people tend to have more respect for a milling machine and secure the work every time
[22:36:41] <toastyde1th> upside, you won't lose a finger
[22:36:53] <roycroft> but they think they can get away with hand-holding work for a drill press
[22:37:08] <zeeshan|2> to be real honest with you
[22:37:17] <zeeshan|2> 90% of the time i use my hands
[22:37:20] <zeeshan|2> cause its faster
[22:37:26] <zeeshan|2> but the other 10% i use a floating vise
[22:37:31] <XXCoder> frak that roy. I use hands to talk. I rather keep my hands intact thank you very much
[22:37:36] <zeeshan|2> or a vise grip clamp on the table
[22:37:57] <zeeshan|2> anything smaller than a 3/8" hole = hand
[22:38:00] <zeeshan|2> no matter what it is
[22:38:04] <roycroft> if it's just drilling, i'll use a fairly heavy drill press vise that can float for most small holes
[22:38:18] <zeeshan|2> if it's drilling a steel cylindical piece (1" diameter"
[22:38:26] <zeeshan|2> ill hold it with a vise grip
[22:38:30] <roycroft> i've been using a drill press for a long time, and i know what i can do safely and what i can't
[22:38:33] <toastyde1th> i am not a fan of totally free drill press work even in a vise
[22:38:44] <toastyde1th> i always put a hard stop and work up against it
[22:38:51] <zeeshan|2> toastyde1th: let me guess why
[22:38:57] <roycroft> i clamp work down on a drill press most of the time
[22:38:59] <zeeshan|2> you had a 3/4" end mill snap on you
[22:39:02] <zeeshan|2> when the vise pulled up? :D
[22:39:07] <zeeshan|2> end mill = drill bit
[22:39:21] <toastyde1th> nah, it's that even a tiny drill bit has the potential to spin a vise
[22:39:32] <zeeshan|2> well a 1/8 bit will beak
[22:39:36] <zeeshan|2> before spinning a 40-50lb vise
[22:39:39] <zeeshan|2> *break
[22:39:42] <toastyde1th> and i'm a big fan of getting into "just do it every time" habits
[22:40:01] <toastyde1th> plus, i can usually leave the stud on the table indefinitely and it's almost never in the way
[22:40:08] <toastyde1th> just walk up, press against the stop, and go
[22:40:21] <zeeshan|2> yea i like that idea
[22:40:29] <zeeshan|2> havent used it before
[22:40:31] <toastyde1th> I use one of the big ones - 8" tall
[22:40:34] <zeeshan|2> i always try to hit the column
[22:40:41] <zeeshan|2> but a lot of parts dont hit the column
[22:40:48] <zeeshan|2> thats where the stud comes into play
[22:40:54] <toastyde1th> exactly
[22:41:05] <roycroft> i googled "sandvik tool geometry book" and found a book on bedwetting
[22:41:10] <zeeshan|2> ROFL
[22:41:12] <toastyde1th> I have yet to have issues with it, including drilling 3/4" thick copper plate with a 1.5" drill bit
[22:41:27] <zeeshan|2> i think we can probably all agree
[22:41:33] <zeeshan|2> the worst is drilling sheet metal w/ a hole saw on a drill press
[22:41:37] <zeeshan|2> :-(
[22:41:38] <toastyde1th> hahaha
[22:41:46] <toastyde1th> I can one up you on that
[22:41:56] <toastyde1th> I had a teacher back when i was doing votech school
[22:42:06] <toastyde1th> he used to have to cut 4x8 sheets of stainless steel
[22:42:08] <roycroft> the only way i do that is with the sheet metal secured to a plywood backing board and the backing board clamped donw
[22:42:21] <toastyde1th> and he had to do it on a 50" vertical turret lathe
[22:42:28] <toastyde1th> with double sided tape
[22:42:30] <XXCoder> heh once had to make tooling. made over 100 holes on thick sheet
[22:42:30] <zeeshan|2> ROFL
[22:42:31] <zeeshan|2> wow
[22:42:37] <XXCoder> and router cnc killed it in minutes
[22:42:42] <XXCoder> "yay"
[22:43:10] <zeeshan|2> i try to avoid using hole saws
[22:43:15] <zeeshan|2> even for the enclosure for the fan holes
[22:43:17] <zeeshan|2> i buted out the plasma
[22:43:20] <zeeshan|2> *bustged
[22:43:31] <zeeshan|2> its more toxic
[22:43:36] <zeeshan|2> but at least it doesnt slice my hand open
[22:44:23] <roycroft> a chassis punch is always preferred to a hole saw when cutting sheet metal holes
[22:44:38] <zeeshan|2> you think i'm rich?!?!
[22:44:45] <zeeshan|2> those green lee punches in 2 1/2"
[22:44:48] <zeeshan|2> are like $300
[22:44:59] <toastyde1th> trepanning tool
[22:45:03] <toastyde1th> Also very scary in sheet metal.
[22:45:04] <roycroft> so you're saying you don't charge enough for your work
[22:45:18] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: msot of my work is for myself
[22:45:24] <zeeshan|2> if it was for someone else, id probably refuse to do it :D
[22:45:36] <zeeshan|2> i wont even make downpipes/exhausts
[22:45:37] <zeeshan|2> for cars anymore
[22:45:43] <zeeshan|2> cause it involves getting under the car
[22:45:56] * zeeshan|2 is picky and lazy
[22:46:16] <roycroft> i've taken to hiring out vehicle repairs recently
[22:46:23] <roycroft> about 3-4 years ago i started doing that
[22:46:31] <roycroft> it's not only the crawing around bits
[22:46:41] <roycroft> moreso, the car parts are dirty bits
[22:46:47] <roycroft> i like to work with clean metal
[22:47:05] <zeeshan|2> most of the cars are usually race cars / street tuner type of cars
[22:47:10] <zeeshan|2> so theyre pretty clean
[22:47:18] <roycroft> yeah, they get rebuilt every weekend :P
[22:47:20] <zeeshan|2> haha
[22:47:48] <zeeshan|2> i "helped" my friend do his brakes on his 1993 civic si
[22:47:50] <zeeshan|2> my god
[22:47:59] <zeeshan|2> i showed him how to do one side
[22:48:05] <zeeshan|2> this thing literally shed 50 lb of rust
[22:48:25] <zeeshan|2> it was enoujgh to mix aluminum oxide with it
[22:48:27] <zeeshan|2> and make some thermite
[22:48:33] <toastyde1th> haha that's amazing, i had to get the gear puller out for one of the wheels on my car
[22:48:59] <zeeshan|2> it was rusted on?
[22:49:06] <roycroft> you guys must live back east
[22:49:13] <zeeshan|2> yea
[22:49:15] <zeeshan|2> salt and snow
[22:49:16] <zeeshan|2> :/
[22:49:23] <roycroft> we don't use salt on the rare occasions when it snows
[22:49:24] <roycroft> we use sand
[22:50:03] <toastyde1th> zeeshan|2, ya
[22:50:10] <zeeshan|2> haha
[22:50:19] <zeeshan|2> on my daily driver car
[22:50:22] <zeeshan|2> whenever the wheels are off
[22:50:32] <zeeshan|2> i flappy disc the mounting face
[22:50:36] <zeeshan|2> then through antiseize on it
[22:50:39] <zeeshan|2> *throw
[22:50:53] <zeeshan|2> i tried grease before
[22:50:56] <zeeshan|2> but it doesnt hold up
[22:51:31] <toastyde1th> I am using the antiseize now
[22:51:45] <toastyde1th> But imagine the other three wheels need it too
[22:51:51] <zeeshan|2> haha
[22:51:53] <toastyde1th> I really just did not feel like going through all that bullshit
[22:51:56] <toastyde1th> three more times
[22:52:03] <zeeshan|2> did you try kicking the tire
[22:52:05] <zeeshan|2> and shocking it
[22:52:05] <toastyde1th> yes
[22:52:13] <zeeshan|2> damn
[22:52:15] <toastyde1th> I hit the fuck out of it with a sledge
[22:52:30] <toastyde1th> I needed a 15" gear puller and a breaker bar
[22:52:32] <zeeshan|2> you shoulda just driven without some lug nuts
[22:52:33] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[22:52:36] <toastyde1th> hahaha
[22:52:38] <zeeshan|2> haha
[22:53:37] <toastyde1th> i need to check my rear brakes
[22:53:40] <toastyde1th> I think they're going
[22:53:47] <zeeshan|2> drums or calipers
[22:53:59] <toastyde1th> but honestly I'm not upset about that because this car is retarded and oversteers when it's wet
[22:54:01] <toastyde1th> because of the rear brakes
[22:54:05] <toastyde1th> drums
[22:54:15] <zeeshan|2> if your wheels were that rusted on
[22:54:23] <zeeshan|2> you probably need to get a spring kit for the drums
[22:54:29] <zeeshan|2> when replacing the liners
[22:54:40] <toastyde1th> we'll see when i knock it open
[22:56:15] <zeeshan|2> does anyone know
[22:56:16] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Basler-L103k-1k-Monochrome-CCD-Camera-Nice-Industrial-Lab-Camera-L100-/281001345133?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item416cfc406d
[22:56:27] <zeeshan|2> how you typically hook this up to a computer
[22:56:38] <zeeshan|2> i want to use it for tool setting on the lathe
[22:56:52] <toastyde1th> looks like it's a pretty standard coax out
[22:57:04] <toastyde1th> you should be able to buy a tv tuner card
[22:57:06] <zeeshan|2> theres like 6 pins
[22:57:14] <toastyde1th> oh
[22:57:18] <toastyde1th> then nevermind
[22:57:24] <toastyde1th> I just saw the picture of it square on from the back
[22:57:32] <toastyde1th> fuck if i know
[22:57:38] <zeeshan|2> damn electronics
[23:00:34] <Tom_itx> component video?
[23:01:00] <zeeshan|2> i dont thinkso
[23:01:15] <zeeshan|2> the CCD cameras in our lab
[23:01:15] <Tom_itx> probably not on B&W
[23:01:20] <zeeshan|2> all use a specialized pci card
[23:01:28] <zeeshan|2> which i've never seen before in my life
[23:08:42] <ssi> https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/1606250_10100489766172172_3761269861639745421_o.jpg
[23:08:53] <ssi> what do we think about the blue piping... nice detail, or too much?
[23:10:48] <Jymmm> zombie piping
[23:11:01] <zeeshan|2> looks nice
[23:11:45] <ssi> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1909767_508587400322_2177_n.jpg?oh=75e2a94c00f159135c3b57a7d1439512&oe=54C455DD&__gda__=1422614452_d4c672d8033e52e0d66436d826bd21cb
[23:11:49] <ssi> it's matchy matchy
[23:12:30] <zeeshan|2> perfect match :D
[23:12:38] <Jymmm> zombie virus http://www.paracordstore.com/assets/images/virus_paracord.jpg
[23:12:39] <zeeshan|2> a lot of the old school muscle cars
[23:12:43] <zeeshan|2> have that detailing
[23:12:45] <zeeshan|2> i love it
[23:13:07] <zeeshan|2> i want all leather black seats with grey striping
[23:13:10] <zeeshan|2> and stitching
[23:19:12] <ssi> do it
[23:19:13] <ssi> it's not hard
[23:19:34] <ssi> I found an uphostery fabric store that sells leather hides for $120 apiece
[23:19:42] <ssi> it's about a hide a seat for car seats
[23:19:51] <ssi> do one in vinyl first for practice
[23:25:15] <zeeshan|2> not enough patience :/
[23:27:00] <zeeshan|2> if i can come across the audi a8 recaro seats
[23:27:06] <zeeshan|2> i will buy them!
[23:27:24] <zeeshan|2> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8267337055_3f501fd437_z.jpg
[23:27:47] <ssi> http://www.srtforums.com/forums/attachments/f106/33525d1173243132-anyone-here-know-thing-two-about-300zx-tt-d5_3.jpg
[23:27:50] <ssi> that's what was in my z31
[23:28:04] <zeeshan|2> im not a big fan of cloth seats anymore
[23:28:05] <ssi> loved those seats
[23:28:09] <ssi> yeah, me either
[23:28:11] <ssi> but those were great hehe
[23:28:21] <zeeshan|2> leather is less comfortable in my opinion
[23:28:26] <ssi> less?
[23:28:32] <zeeshan|2> yea
[23:28:40] <zeeshan|2> unless you have plushy type of leather in a gm car
[23:28:47] <zeeshan|2> most imports are too hard
[23:28:54] <zeeshan|2> and you sweat your balls off!
[23:29:06] <zeeshan|2> but the one thing i like about them is theyre so much easier to clean
[23:29:15] <ssi> the stuff I'm using for the cherokee is vinyl
[23:29:16] <zeeshan|2> and they dont act like a sponge for dust like cloth seats
[23:29:21] <ssi> I was gonna do practice in vinyl and redo them for real in leather
[23:29:27] <ssi> but I like the blue and cream vinyl I found SO MUCH
[23:29:29] <ssi> it matches very nicely
[23:29:31] <ssi> so I'm gonna keep it
[23:29:38] <ssi> but that blue is a very thin, super soft vinyl
[23:29:46] <ssi> it feels like the softest dress leather jacket ever
[23:29:48] <ssi> if you know what I mean
[23:29:55] <zeeshan|2> why is that?
[23:29:59] <zeeshan|2> some leather feels so soft
[23:30:00] <zeeshan|2> like a jacket
[23:30:03] <zeeshan|2> and others are so rough
[23:30:03] <ssi> that's what I mean
[23:30:07] <ssi> oh
[23:30:08] <ssi> why is it
[23:30:09] <ssi> I guess
[23:30:16] <zeeshan|2> i mean its all cow hide!
[23:30:17] <ssi> maybe depends on the age of the animal?
[23:30:19] <ssi> or how it's tanned?
[23:30:20] <ssi> I dunno
[23:30:31] <zeeshan|2> like even with couches
[23:30:32] <ssi> my leatherworking skill isn't leveled up enough to know :D
[23:30:36] <zeeshan|2> some you sink into and they're so soft
[23:30:44] <zeeshan|2> and some are hurt if you jump into them :P
[23:30:47] <ssi> yeh
[23:30:51] <zeeshan|2> almost get a burn
[23:30:56] <ssi> then on the top end, there's tooling leather
[23:31:03] <ssi> like what saddles and holsters are made of
[23:31:12] <zeeshan|2> that stuff is rock hard
[23:31:12] <zeeshan|2> :P
[23:36:31] <ssi> yep
[23:36:38] <ssi> my machine will sew three or four layers of tooling leather :P
[23:36:42] <ssi> it's crazy
[23:37:34] <XXCoder> cnc sewer
[23:37:49] <ssi> i'm sure they exist :P
[23:38:01] <ssi> I mean, the computerized embroidery machines are basically that
[23:38:04] <XXCoder> even rule 34 cnc?
[23:38:16] <ssi> ...no?
[23:38:18] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XiVyakHzY8
[23:39:39] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaNU2qGo7ts
[23:39:59] <XXCoder> interesting
[23:40:07] <ssi> lol @ arduino powered sewing machine
[23:41:09] <Jymmm> If you only knew how intense embroidery machines are/can be
[23:41:15] <ssi> I can imagine
[23:41:16] <XXCoder> I'd mak3e it triple head machine
[23:41:27] <XXCoder> less flexable though unless its just to make those specific part
[23:41:33] <Jymmm> XXCoder: It's the machine that's $$$$
[23:41:44] <Jymmm> XXCoder: I'm on the lookout for one actually
[23:41:49] <ssi> what sort
[23:41:50] <XXCoder> unless you make it so all 3 heads spacing is adjustable
[23:41:56] <XXCoder> our first link
[23:42:00] <XXCoder> *your
[23:42:08] <Jymmm> ssi: mostly commercial, not so much industrial
[23:42:18] <ssi> what do you want to do with it?
[23:42:23] <toastyde1th> i have an industrial serger
[23:42:30] <Jymmm> webbing, canvas, nylon,
[23:42:32] <ssi> toastyde1th: will it do carpets?
[23:42:32] <XXCoder> nothting really I dont need a cnc sew
[23:42:36] <toastyde1th> and holy lord balls jesus is it fast
[23:42:49] <ssi> I need to bind some light carpet for the airplane
[23:42:50] <toastyde1th> nah, carpets won't fit under the presser foot
[23:43:00] <ssi> Jymmm: my machine would do fine for you
[23:43:06] <XXCoder> not even usual cheapass company rugs?
[23:43:07] <toastyde1th> I have yet to find something that is actual cloth that it won't do just fine
[23:43:08] <ssi> I paid $400 for it, it's a singer 591
[23:43:08] <Jymmm> ssi: which is?
[23:43:17] <toastyde1th> I've sewn 32 layers of denim with it
[23:43:26] <ssi> it'll sew 5/8" thick buildup of canvas without breaking a sweat
[23:43:41] <ssi> three or four pieces of 1/8" tooling leather easily
[23:43:49] <ssi> it's a stout little bastard
[23:43:54] <toastyde1th> the needle cooler is not working though so doing too much sewing on heavy shit will overheat the needles
[23:43:58] <Jymmm> ssi: That's an industrial machine. a wee bit too much for my needs I believe
[23:44:00] <ssi> only downside for my uses is it doesn't have a walking foot, which'd be nice for upholstery
[23:44:08] <ssi> yeah probably
[23:44:17] <ssi> and it is straight stitch only
[23:44:22] <ssi> if I get into sailmaking, I'll want zigzag
[23:44:30] <ssi> but for upholstery, straight stitch is fine
[23:44:48] <ssi> toastyde1th: I've run cheap home sergers before
[23:44:49] <ssi> they're fun
[23:44:59] <Jymmm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7BL2e4Q5_g
[23:45:03] <zeeshan|2> http://sgstool.com/images-dev/_products/multi-carb-11flute-700.jpg
[23:45:05] <zeeshan|2> wtf
[23:45:05] <toastyde1th> <XXCoder> our first link
[23:45:05] <toastyde1th> <XXCoder> *your
[23:45:05] <toastyde1th> <Jymmm> ssi: mostly commercial, not so much industrial
[23:45:07] <toastyde1th> oops
[23:45:10] <toastyde1th> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_phnFoojWU
[23:45:12] <XXCoder> lol
[23:45:15] <Jymmm> toastyde1th: correct
[23:45:21] <toastyde1th> my machine is nearly identical to that one
[23:45:22] <XXCoder> that is why i disabled irc client copy on click
[23:45:29] <Jymmm> toastyde1th: to which?
[23:45:33] <XXCoder> it also unfortunately disables regular keyboard shortcuts
[23:45:42] <toastyde1th> Jymmm, ?
[23:45:47] <toastyde1th> i accidentally pasted that, sorry
[23:45:56] <toastyde1th> i have a habit of clicking/highlighting text as i read it
[23:45:57] <Jymmm> toastyde1th: which machine? the ony I or ssi linked to?
[23:45:57] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbPLrzq9NMM
[23:46:01] <ssi> that might not be a bad way to go
[23:46:02] <toastyde1th> the one i just pasted
[23:46:26] <XXCoder> wow thats very thick
[23:46:48] <XXCoder> wow
[23:46:49] <Jymmm> toastyde1th: but a seger is just for the edges, right?
[23:46:56] <toastyde1th> seams, yes
[23:47:04] <XXCoder> and that dumbass is using BIG gold chain
[23:47:17] <toastyde1th> don't buy a serger unless you need one
[23:47:23] <XXCoder> big loose snaggable chain on wrist
[23:47:40] <toastyde1th> I was making a lot of clothing with semi-strechy fabric
[23:47:46] <toastyde1th> which is what a four thread serger excels at
[23:48:26] <Jymmm> YEah, I need a sewing machine, not a serger.
[23:49:29] <XXCoder> cool
[23:49:51] <Jymmm> I want to make some knife shiefs
[23:50:02] <ssi> that's a pretty easy project
[23:50:10] <ssi> I made some wrench rolls in canvas years ago when I first learned to sew
[23:50:38] <ssi> toastyde1th: that's a fast ass machine heh
[23:50:46] <Jymmm> 3-4 layers of nylon + piping + webbing
[23:50:48] <XXCoder> yeah
[23:50:51] <toastyde1th> that one isn't running full tilt, either
[23:50:58] <XXCoder> yet guys using loose jewelery with it
[23:51:00] <XXCoder> what a dumbass
[23:51:06] <toastyde1th> he has it backed way off
[23:51:18] <XXCoder> sure but I wouldnt even wear
[23:51:26] <XXCoder> not that I wear any in first place
[23:51:30] <ssi> Jymmm: you might oughta get an industrial machine after all
[23:51:45] <ssi> Jymmm: walking foot machines are awesome for thick buildups cause they pull through on the top as well as the bottom
[23:52:02] <toastyde1th> imho an industrial zigzag/walking foot is the way to go unless you REALLY, REALLY want some of the digital features of a home machine
[23:52:14] <ssi> yeah
[23:52:21] <toastyde1th> i realize now i should have bought a zigzag walker instead
[23:52:25] <XXCoder> wire home machine to bigass machine
[23:52:27] <Jymmm> http://www.amazon.com/Singer-CG-550-10-Stitch-Commercial-Machine/dp/B002NREHQ6/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
[23:53:03] <Jymmm> I want real steel gears =)
[23:53:04] <ssi> http://www.sailrite.com/Sailrite-111-Sewing-Machine#!Sailrite-111-Sewing-Machine
[23:53:19] <ssi> that's a NICE machine if you don't need zigzag
[23:53:26] <toastyde1th> servo is another good option
[23:53:31] <Jymmm> ssi: Wehn you want to ship that to me for xmas, let me know
[23:53:32] <ssi> my machine is basically exactly that, but no walking foot
[23:53:32] <toastyde1th> because at least on my machine i do not like pure clutch
[23:53:50] <ssi> toastyde1th: yea I'd love to have servo, it took me awhile to tune my foot to the clutch
[23:53:54] <ssi> and it's still faster than I'd like
[23:53:59] <Jymmm> ssi: I aint paying $$$$ for one
[23:54:14] <ssi> Jymmm: like I said, I paid $400 for mine, and it's basically that machine without walking foot
[23:54:16] <Jymmm> I don't need it THAT much.
[23:54:18] <ssi> with the stand, knee lift, the whole deal
[23:54:21] <ssi> and it's a self-oiling machine
[23:54:23] <ssi> nice shit
[23:54:40] <ssi> just troll craigslist, they're out there
[23:54:49] <Jymmm> ssi: That's the plan
[23:55:09] <ssi> when I bought this one, I bought it cause he had it listed as a walking foot machine
[23:55:18] <ssi> and like a dumbass, I didn't notice when I went to check it out that it wasn't in fact
[23:55:28] <ssi> but other than that, I'm very happy with it
[23:55:36] <Jymmm> Hmmmm http://www.amazon.com/Singer-Sewing-4432-Extra-High-Stainless/dp/B00JJ6L6PY/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t
[23:55:46] <Jymmm> hell of a lot of reviews and cheap too
[23:56:26] <Jymmm> well shit, the worse review answered my question
[23:56:33] <ssi> Jymmm: find out what the heaviest thread it'll take is
[23:56:44] <ssi> for doing webbing work you're gonna want to use V92 probably
[23:57:53] <ssi> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/hsh/4672680009.html
[23:58:07] <ssi> that's a chinese knockoff of the sailrite portables
[23:58:14] <ssi> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/app/4684143958.html
[23:58:15] <ssi> as is that
[23:58:56] <Jymmm> only one stitch?
[23:59:00] <ssi> yeah
[23:59:03] <ssi> how many stitches you need? :)
[23:59:21] <ssi> industrial machines come in two flavors: straight stitch and zigzag
[23:59:28] <Jymmm> straight, zigzag, and a stretch stitch would be nice at least
[23:59:35] <ssi> only thing I personally need zigzag for is sailmaking
[23:59:46] <ssi> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/tls/4690105821.html
[23:59:47] <toastyde1th> zigzag is sufficient for stretch
[23:59:49] <ssi> THAT is a nice machine