#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-01-02

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[00:00:21] <somenewguy> sublime text, and I assume most any ide, will underline the open and closed paren/bracket/whatever taht are enclosing your current cursor position
[00:00:29] <somenewguy> a very nice feature
[00:00:51] <somenewguy> even nicer is the fact that if youput the cursor infront of a bracket, it will highlight the matchign bracket, if one exists
[00:01:10] <somenewguy> really easy way to double check a conditinal statment with 20 layers of nested parens
[00:02:15] <Mr_Mayhem> Yes, saw that highlight bracket and opposite bracket in ruby script editor for sketchup.
[00:08:00] <somenewguy> it also adds brackets as you type
[00:08:09] <somenewguy> which is so convenient I actually forot it did it
[00:08:52] <somenewguy> so when you type a open paren, it inserts a close paren infront of your cursr so you are magically typing between them. if you accidently add a close paren, it abosrbs the one it put in automagically
[00:09:00] <somenewguy> so no matter what you have the close paren
[00:09:06] <somenewguy> untill yo uaccidently delete it later of coruse
[00:09:08] <somenewguy> course
[00:10:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Nice feature, so you don't forget.
[00:15:47] <somenewguy> yeap, someone put a lot of work into this thing
[00:17:29] <Mr_Mayhem> I like this pic: http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm//wp-content/uploads/2012/08/williams-workbench.jpg
[00:17:55] <Mr_Mayhem> Shows what a real engineer's bench looks like.
[00:55:01] <RyanS> I'm almost expecting to see a monkey coupled to the testing equipment
[00:55:45] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/an-analog-life-remembering-jim-williams/
[00:55:52] <Mr_Mayhem> More there.
[01:16:05] <somenewguy> I'd call that neat compared to some of the folks at work...
[01:17:26] <somenewguy> he was a god as far as I can tell
[01:21:13] <RyanS> Looks a bit like archivists lounge room :p
[01:24:13] <Mr_Mayhem> lol! Nice.
[01:25:05] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, he was one of the top guys in analog designs.
[01:25:50] <Mr_Mayhem> We need more of those kind of folks. Put out feeders to attract them and care for them. Maybe then we can get to mars or whatever.
[01:26:16] <Mr_Mayhem> Fusion would be nice too, by the way.
[01:26:37] <RyanS> Mars is overrated
[01:26:59] <Mr_Mayhem> Ok, what then? Mine asteroids or something?
[01:27:43] <Mr_Mayhem> I'm bored with the state of space stuff. Except for Hubble and the mars crawlers, etc.
[01:28:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe the chinese on the moon will perk the competition up a bit.
[01:28:33] <RyanS> I don't know. I just can't get past the origin of space exploration as a cold war and dick measuring contest
[01:29:12] <Mr_Mayhem> I know, it's so ironic how the v2 went to the moon to be man's greatest achievement or whatever.
[01:29:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Then the cold war, and their evil toys.
[01:30:00] <RyanS> V2? Wasn't that the German 'buzz bomb'?
[01:30:26] <RyanS> No that was the V1
[01:30:36] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, as in the nazi rocket scientist becomes mankind's hope for space exploration. Very ironic.
[01:31:01] <RyanS> Operation paperclip
[01:31:39] <Mr_Mayhem> They certainly had some mad skills in engineering, left over from the german classical period and it's echoes, but seriously, nazi?
[01:31:54] <Loetmichel> if you look at it a saturn V is just a sized up V2 ;-)
[01:31:55] <Mr_Mayhem> Wow. And all to do the cold war.
[01:32:16] <somenewguy> best thing to ever happen to us I guess
[01:32:26] <RyanS> I'm not sure how political von Braun was
[01:32:49] <Loetmichel> iirc totally apolitical
[01:32:55] <somenewguy> when you are that bright, you are either uber politcal, or completly in your own world
[01:33:02] <somenewguy> "I just want to build big machines"
[01:33:16] <Mr_Mayhem> I think he was a pet, not a nazi fundy, but still. Looks bad and ironic to say the least. But substance over appearances wins the day I suppose.
[01:33:30] <RyanS> Yeah, I think he would have been going wherever the cash was
[01:33:30] <Loetmichel> like in "as long as you let me do my work i am not interested in your political mess"
[01:33:47] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, like that.
[01:34:15] <RyanS> NAZA space program lol
[01:34:39] <Mr_Mayhem> Then the whole nuclear power leap starting because of the bomb project. That's another example of evil ending up doing some good, at least tech wise.
[01:34:44] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[01:34:51] <Mr_Mayhem> NAZA, good one!
[01:34:52] <Loetmichel> <. has to go to work now, already 18 minutes late ;)
[01:35:08] <Mr_Mayhem> see ya Loet
[01:35:23] <RyanS> I just think about the monkeys and dogs fired into space... Running out of oxygen
[01:36:02] <Mr_Mayhem> Don't dwell on it, that's your Bad Place...hehe
[01:36:28] <Mr_Mayhem> I.. can't... breathe....Must..do....something...
[01:36:59] <Mr_Mayhem> No but that was kinda messed up with the animal thing.
[01:37:32] <RyanS> "Okay, men we're going to strap you on top of a ballistic missile and fire you into space. Are you okay with it? "
[01:37:33] <Mr_Mayhem> But I'm not a dog hugger, unless you include my wife. Just kidding.
[01:37:44] <RyanS> ooo
[01:38:07] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, the whole least cost bidder risk thing.
[01:39:53] <RyanS> Nuclear stuff is pretty scary, im studying international relations and did a subject last year on security studies
[01:39:57] <Mr_Mayhem> I guess that every tech has good or bad uses as they say, but the nasa and nuclear things were so in your face as examples of good as byproducts of evil.
[01:40:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, can be. Like the black market, etc.
[01:41:01] <Mr_Mayhem> I like the whole thorium idea, gets away from the bomb material problem with more efficiency less cost.
[01:41:32] <RyanS> just things like the anti ballistic missile treaty when both sides agreed that missile defence was 'destabilising'
[01:41:41] <Mr_Mayhem> Still makes some nasty elements, 235? but not so usable for boom.
[01:42:19] <Mr_Mayhem> I always suspected a conspiracy behind the whole cold war. Classic gang-countergang op.
[01:42:21] <RyanS> Felt safer, apparently with more missiles pointed at eachother
[01:42:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, MAD.
[01:43:07] <Mr_Mayhem> I knew larouche, he wanted to share it, not use it only for usa.
[01:43:15] <Mr_Mayhem> SDI
[01:43:38] <Mr_Mayhem> But he was a little out of touch with the establishment to say the least.
[01:43:54] <Mr_Mayhem> He did much up the works for awhile though.
[01:44:07] <RyanS> The closest they ever came to nuclear exchange was 1983, actually. Not the Cuban missile crisis
[01:44:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Was that the missle launch detection in russia, where the colonel backed it down?
[01:44:56] <Mr_Mayhem> Because attack would probably be many not one.
[01:45:24] <Mr_Mayhem> Was a solar reflection or something on the sensor on the satellite?
[01:45:41] <RyanS> That was during a NATO training exercise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83
[01:46:06] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, the test disk.
[01:46:20] <Mr_Mayhem> Running the test but not aware it was a simulation?
[01:46:27] <RyanS> There was some sort of glitch and in the environment of deteriorating relations
[01:46:27] <Mr_Mayhem> let me look.
[01:47:10] <RyanS> yeh because the Soviets often disguised real military manoeuvres as exercises and presumed that NATO did the same
[01:47:51] <Mr_Mayhem> Builtup of political tension, korean air shoot down, then False alarm from the Soviet early missile warning system
[01:47:52] <RyanS> And also they were becoming increasingly paranoid about political unreast
[01:47:55] <Mr_Mayhem> ok
[01:48:08] <Mr_Mayhem> I remember.
[01:48:22] <Mr_Mayhem> MTV early days, heh
[01:48:41] <Mr_Mayhem> I want my MTV.
[01:49:25] <RyanS> I was 10 in 1990 so I don't really remember the end of the Cold War, except I think I remember seeing the Berlin Wall on the news
[01:49:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Well, didn't that smell like a setup. Wind them up and watch them run. Hmmm, maybe.
[01:49:57] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe not.
[01:50:16] <RyanS> eh?
[01:50:55] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean, it seems so scripted, if one was looking at it from a conspiracy view. Who shoots down airliners?
[01:51:09] <RyanS> ah
[01:51:21] <Mr_Mayhem> Not so common. And during tensions? Hmmm.
[01:51:39] <RyanS> "Central Intelligence Agency historian Benjamin B. Fischer lists several concrete occurrences that likely led to the birth of RYAN" lol
[01:51:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe the tensions make the shooting, or vice versa.
[01:51:53] <Mr_Mayhem> heh
[01:52:13] <RyanS> it Was operation VRYAN but anyways
[01:52:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah.
[01:52:43] <Mr_Mayhem> I like the Russian cnc forums. They have skills.
[01:53:09] <Mr_Mayhem> Amps and electronics too. Good diy over there.
[01:53:29] <Mr_Mayhem> In Soviet Russia, cnc make You!
[01:54:03] <RyanS> I don't get that Soviet Russia thing is that like Chuck Norris...
[01:54:37] <Mr_Mayhem> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Soviet_Russia...
[01:56:30] <Mr_Mayhem> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_reversal more specific to joke
[01:57:09] <Mr_Mayhem> In America, your work determines your marks.
[01:57:10] <Mr_Mayhem> In Soviet Russia, Marx determines your work!
[01:57:21] <RyanS> That was a good one
[01:57:39] <Mr_Mayhem> I like the confusious says ones too.
[01:58:02] <Mr_Mayhem> Confusious say, man who stand on toilet high on pot!
[01:58:42] <Mr_Mayhem> Man who run in front of car soon get tired. Man who run behind car soon get exhausted.
[01:58:46] <RyanS> You beat me to it
[01:58:46] <Mr_Mayhem> etc.
[01:59:05] <Mr_Mayhem> I need some new ones. Mine are tired too.
[01:59:19] <RyanS> The exhausted one is one of the best
[01:59:22] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[01:59:25] <Mr_Mayhem> yeah
[02:00:10] <Mr_Mayhem> So, what kind of machine do you use again?
[02:00:22] <Mr_Mayhem> I forgot or never asked.
[02:00:49] <Mr_Mayhem> I am running a cheap chinese cnc of the better kind I suppose. Desktop but the big one.
[02:01:21] <RyanS> I don't have anything CNC, but I recently got a fairly large three-phase drill press and got a VFD
[02:01:56] <RyanS> I have a compound table on it and was just not enough clearance on the bench top machine
[02:02:18] <Mr_Mayhem> Nice. You can make nice furnature using dowell pins with that. I did the same to make an enclosure for my cnc. Uses pins and bolts so I can take it apart and get it through the doorway.
[02:02:41] <RyanS> I also use a small 150x350mm lathe, but it's not mine
[02:03:12] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.woodpeck.com/crossdoweljig.html
[02:03:32] <Mr_Mayhem> One way to do dowell pins if you want to make a sturdy bench or whatever.
[02:03:50] <RyanS> And the ubiquitous Chinese bandsaw so much easier than slumming it with a hacksaw and an angle grinder
[02:04:01] <Mr_Mayhem> The pins hold it together very strongly, yet come apart.
[02:04:16] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, nice to have that over the hacksaw.
[02:04:51] <RyanS> Not really interested in woodwork too dusty lol
[02:05:25] <Mr_Mayhem> It's actually neat to see the precision. I am with you generally, I want to do other materals as well as pcbs.
[02:06:01] <Mr_Mayhem> I was amazed by how clean the cuts are compared to say, standard woodshop stuff.
[02:06:29] <Mr_Mayhem> I am sure there are more precise ways to do cuts without cnc, but wow.
[02:06:47] <RyanS> I'm thinking of getting an oxygen propane rig, then I only have to rent oxygen. I want to be able to praise dissimilar metals
[02:07:09] <RyanS> braze
[02:07:10] <Mr_Mayhem> Brazing, yah?
[02:07:37] <Mr_Mayhem> Kind of like welding, lite version.
[02:07:40] <RyanS> Voice recognition... Misinterprets things sometimes brays praise brays
[02:07:47] <Mr_Mayhem> ha
[02:07:47] <RyanS> bah
[02:08:34] <Mr_Mayhem> I am typing. Note to self, go buy a voice app or make windows do it, now where is that button near the clock again? I know, it makes errors, sometimes bad ones.
[02:08:41] <Loetmichel> nothing like welding
[02:08:54] <Mr_Mayhem> Closer to soldering?
[02:09:00] <Mr_Mayhem> In between?
[02:09:21] <Loetmichel> soldering/brazing copper sheets is MUCH easier then (gas) welding them
[02:09:25] <Loetmichel> btdt
[02:09:43] <RyanS> Welding can just use stick or MIG but it seems brazing the only way to do dissimilar metals
[02:09:54] <Mr_Mayhem> I can imagine...
[02:10:16] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so dis-similar is where you should braze.
[02:10:23] <Loetmichel> right
[02:10:42] <RyanS> brazing really is just high temperature soldering, I don't know why it gets its own term
[02:10:42] <Loetmichel> especially when the metals have vastly dissimilar melting temperatuires
[02:11:52] <Mr_Mayhem> I am still admiring your sheet metal work Loetmichel. I will try as soon as I receive my new stepper driver cards. 3 days.
[02:12:00] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[02:12:36] <Mr_Mayhem> So, what kind of thing are you aiming to make using brazing, RyanS?
[02:12:52] <Loetmichel> i have welded 4mm copptre sheets to for lanterns for a garden
[02:13:12] <Loetmichel> with a acetylene/oxygen toch
[02:13:15] <RyanS> I think propane blowtorches really are limited to soft solder and silver rods with a high amount of silver?
[02:13:15] <Loetmichel> torch
[02:13:29] <Loetmichel> not a thin i would reccomend for the beginner, tough ;-)
[02:13:43] <Mr_Mayhem> Copper pipe makes nice tiki torches too. Much nicer than the wicker or whatever type.
[02:14:27] <Mr_Mayhem> Use a large diameter for the fuel tank, and reducers to hold the wick.
[02:14:52] <Mr_Mayhem> Very classy looking things in the garden.
[02:14:52] <Loetmichel> i think i destroyed 10 sets of copper sheets until the first one was without holes in the welds
[02:15:17] <Mr_Mayhem> haha, practice was a bit rough, huh?
[02:15:19] <Deejay> moin
[02:15:51] <Loetmichel> well, copper tends to stay solid and then suddenly going waterthin
[02:16:01] <Loetmichel> not easy to weld that with a flame
[02:16:08] <Deejay> morning guys!
[02:16:14] <Mr_Mayhem> Morning
[02:16:32] <RyanS> I'm interested in making some model steam engines, but I have things like making a cold drip coffee maker and a kind of gear,steampunkish desk lamp with a few different machined parts
[02:16:54] <Mr_Mayhem> Ahh, steampunk is awesome when done right!
[02:17:21] <Mr_Mayhem> Hehe, anyone do a steampunked cnc? That would be funny.
[02:17:27] <Loetmichel> for the steampunk parts i would go with glue
[02:18:01] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, less danger from heat?
[02:18:08] <Loetmichel> and for the steam engines with silver solder and a propane torch
[02:18:17] <RyanS> However, I spent more time making stands for bansaw & lathhe modifications
[02:18:32] <Mr_Mayhem> Just like a hot water heater copper pipe connection...
[02:19:03] <Loetmichel> no, hot water would be lead/tin solder over here
[02:19:35] <Mr_Mayhem> Not silver then? Curious, especially with all the concern about lead.
[02:20:00] <RyanS> I guess silver solder is pretty strong. I would like a way to bend metal , a bit easier. Perhaps something like a torch fired forge made from a section of pipe
[02:20:03] <Loetmichel> may be the new "leadless" electronic solders now
[02:20:16] <Loetmichel> but still the low temperature tin based solder
[02:20:25] <Mr_Mayhem> Ahh.
[02:20:30] <Loetmichel> not the realtuively high tempaerature silver solder
[02:20:53] <Mr_Mayhem> I always wondered how much lead I breathed in over the years, using my soldering iron.
[02:21:02] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: noting
[02:21:04] <Mr_Mayhem> I use that silver stuff now.
[02:21:06] <RyanS> Could you silver solder copper to stainless with MAPP?
[02:21:16] <Loetmichel> lead doesent evaporate at soldering temperatures
[02:21:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, that's a Good Thing.
[02:21:30] <RyanS> Blowtorch
[02:21:32] <Loetmichel> never tested
[02:21:39] <Loetmichel> @ RyanS
[02:21:54] <Loetmichel> but stainless and soldering is a pain in the A***
[02:22:18] <Mr_Mayhem> heh, better to weld then?
[02:22:48] <RyanS> Pretty useless? http://www.eastcoastweldingsupplies.com.au/store/brazing%20kit
[02:22:52] <Loetmichel> yes, for stainless to stainless
[02:23:06] <Loetmichel> for copper to stainless: no idea
[02:23:19] <Loetmichel> maybe riveting it would be the best way ;-)
[02:23:36] <Mr_Mayhem> I know so little when it comes to welding and brazing. Just enough to feel ok about it when I need to begin a project, with a learning curve to climb.
[02:23:53] <ReadError> dust collection question
[02:23:59] <Mr_Mayhem> k
[02:24:05] <ReadError> if im running about 10' of 4" hose
[02:24:13] <ReadError> into the 2" shopvac style
[02:24:28] <ReadError> would I benefit from making an adapter for my shoe and using the 2" for the entire run?
[02:25:01] <Loetmichel> ReadError: depends
[02:25:04] <ReadError> i figured theres less "cubic feet"
[02:25:16] <ReadError> so maybe it would increase the negative pressure inside the shoe
[02:25:33] <Loetmichel> the 4" will have problems maiontaining the air speed when connected to a 2" intake
[02:25:36] <Mr_Mayhem> It is best to maintain the 4" for as much as you can.
[02:25:53] <Loetmichel> so it may be deposituing your swarf along the way inside the tube
[02:25:55] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe go to 2" near the dust shoe or above it some.
[02:26:21] <Mr_Mayhem> Ohh, pressure drip, my bad.
[02:26:44] <ReadError> yea im thinking about removing the 4" section entirely
[02:26:54] <Mr_Mayhem> I get "stay 4" when I asked the same question at kentcnc.com
[02:26:57] <ReadError> and making an adapter to insert my 2" inside the 4" hole
[02:27:12] <Mr_Mayhem> But my cnc is 2" too, a hobby machine, so 4" is too big,
[02:27:25] <ReadError> yea i have that also Mr_Mayhem, the kent shoe
[02:27:44] <Mr_Mayhem> He says, stay with 4". Hmmm. I have the same issue then.
[02:28:03] <Mr_Mayhem> I wanted to make a dust shoe like his, but shrunk down in scale.
[02:28:24] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe with some vortex strategy near the cutting tool for more suction there.
[02:28:28] <RyanS> ReadError: Maybe rip-off the dust deputy http://www.oneida-air.com/category.asp?Id={CC6B6F2A-E3D7-4F18-A53C-B5C357DFE131}
[02:28:34] <ReadError> well i was also thinking about something to actually draw the dust in better
[02:28:57] <ReadError> rather than it sucking from the top, you know the style of those car vacuum cleaner nozzles
[02:29:00] <ReadError> at carwashes
[02:29:10] <ReadError> flat ( ) shaped
[02:29:44] <ReadError> RyanS im actually running 2 of their cyclones ;)
[02:30:30] <RyanS> That idea would really 'suck'.. lol, sorry bad humour
[02:30:59] <Mr_Mayhem> You need to center the suction votex at the cutting tool, I think. Hey I used to fly gliders, but what do I know? I saw a really cool design on a french website that sucked from a hole on top above the tool. The passed into a torus having a side pipe to connect the vacuum, and was suspened on a clamp.
[02:31:41] <Mr_Mayhem> I need to find that one. But you have what you have, so..
[02:31:51] <Mr_Mayhem> I would experiment.
[02:31:56] <ReadError> i was also considering adding locline and a timer+compressor
[02:31:57] <RyanS> You want that thing to suck like a prostitute on crack
[02:32:05] <ReadError> and doing an air blast
[02:32:28] <ReadError> atleast if i get the dust up and moving it has a better chance of being sucked up
[02:33:14] <Mr_Mayhem> I suspect it is difficult to make the pressure blast work with the vacuum. Better to swirl the vacuum into a vortex via offset outlet(s) on the central ring.
[02:33:55] <ReadError> well i mostly want to remove the fine dust from the previous pass
[02:34:08] <Mr_Mayhem> I really need to finish that idea in cad, hmmph.
[02:34:17] <ReadError> thicker materials im taking 5 depth cuts
[02:34:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Ahh.
[02:34:31] <ReadError> so a vacuum alone wont move that out
[02:35:18] <Mr_Mayhem> Right. Like a car-wash, haha. You need a passing jet nozzle from the compressor, I see, to blow the dust from the cut.
[02:35:39] <Mr_Mayhem> Cough, cough.
[02:35:42] <ReadError> lol
[02:36:22] <Mr_Mayhem> Well, hmmm, maybe get one of those cold air nozzles and cool the tool while you are at it. Maybe that's overthinking it.
[02:37:18] <Mr_Mayhem> No, overthinking it would be a way to aim them using buttons.
[02:38:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe you can put a compressor attachment thingie on the kent shoe?
[02:38:20] <ReadError> yea so much stuff on my list
[02:38:28] <Mr_Mayhem> And make it aim into the cut from there?
[02:38:37] <ReadError> yea i was going to drill a hole
[02:38:49] <ReadError> and run 1/4" lockline
[02:39:04] <ReadError> then use some poly tube to run it over to the solenoid/timer
[02:39:12] <Mr_Mayhem> Heh, one more pipe to run down the cable management tray...
[02:39:33] <ReadError> well figured ill run it w/ my vac hose
[02:39:42] <ReadError> since thats suspended above it anyways
[02:39:43] <Mr_Mayhem> Good idea, use a solenoid with good flow, some are lame.
[02:40:09] <Mr_Mayhem> Heh, hit the button, fire the solenoid, dust flies.
[02:40:27] <Mr_Mayhem> That's almost steampunked.
[02:40:48] <ReadError> hey if it flies into the vacuum we are all good ;)
[02:41:03] <Mr_Mayhem> With that Kent dust shoe, how can it miss
[02:41:05] <Mr_Mayhem> ?
[02:41:44] <Mr_Mayhem> It's almost bigger than my machine! Naa, not that bad, but still too big for my toy cnc.
[02:42:57] <Mr_Mayhem> You may need to do say 3" vacuum cleaner hose as a compromise, if the dust and debris builds up from slow air flow in the wider hose.
[02:43:32] <Mr_Mayhem> Never tested it, and depends on the power of your vacuum, too.
[02:44:25] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean 3" for the longer run from the vacuum or dust deputy cyclone.
[02:45:20] <ReadError> yea ill try a few things I guess
[02:45:30] <Mr_Mayhem> I have the problem of the vacuum being too weak, I should buy a bigger one.
[02:46:06] <ReadError> I just grabbed a 6.5HP
[02:46:19] <ReadError> Ive killed 6 or so in less than a year
[02:46:22] <ReadError> motors*
[02:46:41] <ReadError> less now that I have the cyclones
[02:46:48] <ReadError> but hours and long running get to them
[02:46:52] <Mr_Mayhem> Do you use a cyclone to filter out the dust before the vacuum itself?
[02:46:57] <ReadError> yea
[02:47:02] <ReadError> 2 of them actually
[02:47:11] <Mr_Mayhem> And yet still so many failures?
[02:47:13] <ReadError> got the extended warranty on this one though
[02:47:18] <Mr_Mayhem> ha.
[02:47:25] <ReadError> well they run for sometimes 8hrs a day straight
[02:47:43] <ReadError> i dont think they where designed to do that
[02:47:53] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, ball bearings and heat and high rpm all day, got ya.
[02:48:31] <Mr_Mayhem> I use a variable ac transformer to back mine down 20% or so as needed.
[02:48:57] <Mr_Mayhem> Heh, a fancy person could use a vfd or whatever to vary it.
[02:49:08] <Mr_Mayhem> using the gcode itself
[02:49:49] <Mr_Mayhem> but the variable transformer is nice to have, esp to reduce noise sometimes when full power isn't needed.
[02:51:01] <Mr_Mayhem> variac its called I think? Has a big knob on it. Just plug into it and plug into the wall. 1500 watt or bigger maybe.
[02:51:04] <RyanS> Stick welding aluminium... didn't realise you could
[02:51:57] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/variable-ac-transformer
[02:53:22] <Mr_Mayhem> You can probably save a lot of vacuum cleaner motors by running them a little slower using this transformer with adjustable voltage.
[02:54:16] <Mr_Mayhem> I saw some videos of stick welding aluminum on youtube.
[02:58:51] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: or asimpe (induction motor capable) light di9mmer
[02:59:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Triac based, would work too. But kinda nasty waveforms.
[02:59:39] <Loetmichel> shop vac shave simpe brushed motors
[02:59:41] <Mr_Mayhem> Electronic interference issue? Donno.
[02:59:43] <Loetmichel> -s
[03:00:13] <Loetmichel> they are not really concerned about waveforms, they even run with DC
[03:01:16] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean from a rf interference from big motor, maybe it's not an issue. The variac is pure sine wave, maybe an advantage from this consideration.
[03:02:12] <Mr_Mayhem> A dimmer works by chopping the sine wave, but makes high frequency noise there.
[03:02:53] <Mr_Mayhem> Esp with a magnetic coil of motor>> flyback spike.
[03:02:58] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe not an issue, donno.
[03:03:15] * Jymmm needs a DC dimmer =)
[03:03:24] <archivist> the better ones switch on/off at zero crossing
[03:03:57] <Mr_Mayhem> Right.
[03:05:10] <Mr_Mayhem> http://zooid.org/~paul/zero-crossing-detector.png working on one now... For power supply input from ac wall socket.
[03:05:42] <Mr_Mayhem> That just makes the timing pulses for the power device triggers.
[03:06:48] <Mr_Mayhem> I am making it so most the regulation is done prior to the filter capacitators, so the linear regulators don't have to work so hard.
[03:07:01] <archivist> yes so that there is no current flowing therefore less interference
[03:07:09] <Mr_Mayhem> RIght.
[03:07:20] <archivist> at the time of switching
[03:08:11] <Mr_Mayhem> correct. In my case I turn on a "hump" when my voltage on the output is sagging. Then I repeat on each ac wave cycle.
[03:08:52] <Mr_Mayhem> switch on at zero crossing, or skip it if we are ok that moment with the output.
[03:09:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Switching done simple, no 100khz osc.
[03:12:17] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: for inductances its a bit more compicated
[03:12:28] <Mr_Mayhem> Big Caps dampen the ripple, and a standard linear regulator for the final ripple removal. At least, that's the plan. Goal is high amps without so much heat losses and big heat sinks, etc.
[03:12:39] <Loetmichel> you need to swituch in the CURRENT zero crossing, not in the voltage zer
[03:12:47] <Loetmichel> o
[03:12:55] <Mr_Mayhem> Excellent point.
[03:13:10] <Loetmichel> but there are chips that can sense that for triac dimmers already on the market
[03:13:27] <Mr_Mayhem> Now I need a way to derive that zero current. Hmmm. Inductive pickup?
[03:14:27] <Mr_Mayhem> I was building it for the sake of knowlege as well, but nice to know they have the zero current triac circuits. Maybe make the project easier still...
[03:14:28] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: for a laboratory PSU there was a circuit in an old "elector" magazine
[03:14:47] <Loetmichel> for a 600W lab PSU with a pre-transformer-dimmer
[03:15:03] <Loetmichel> somwhre in the 90ties
[03:15:08] <Loetmichel> (or was it 80ties)
[03:15:11] <Loetmichel> ?
[03:15:27] <Mr_Mayhem> Excellent! I will look for it in back issues somehow.
[03:15:57] <archivist> I have a lab psu from mid 1960's that has an SCR before the transformer and regulator
[03:16:21] <Loetmichel> IIRC they used the votage avross the linear regulator as a input for the dimmer
[03:16:49] <Loetmichel> i.e: the dimmer tries to regulate the voltage across the liner Regulator to about 5V
[03:18:06] <Mr_Mayhem> I am duly impressed by both of you. Nice knowlege in those heads...
[03:18:31] <Loetmichel> comes with the age :-)
[03:18:41] <archivist> I has the manuals for old stuff
[03:18:56] <archivist> and is also not a youngster
[03:19:15] <Mr_Mayhem> I am a new to actually designing circuits. I am trying to go from appliance operator to tech, and maybe if I am lucky engineer some day.
[03:19:46] <Mr_Mayhem> I love the software sims by the way. I know they have their limits.
[03:19:55] <Tom_itx> ole pharts
[03:20:03] <archivist> keep reading up on whatever, soak up techniques
[03:20:03] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[03:20:54] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: about 30 years of electronics practice and development goes a length ;-)
[03:21:45] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: i will be 45 in a few weeks
[03:21:51] <Mr_Mayhem> Hehe
[03:22:30] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, that's it??
[03:22:30] <Loetmichel> so not HTHAT oold a fart ;-)
[03:22:32] <Tom_itx> :D
[03:22:45] <Tom_itx> you're still a pup
[03:23:03] <Tom_itx> enjoy it
[03:23:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Old skool pocket protecter, slide rule, original texas instruments calculator, couple of paper tapes and punch cards laying around, a klystron or two... I can see your bat-cave now...
[03:23:35] <Mr_Mayhem> Pen recorders...
[03:23:47] <Tom_itx> slide rule....
[03:23:49] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe, those big computers with reel to reels...
[03:24:34] <Mr_Mayhem> I love the old engineering lab setups, an art form.
[03:24:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, I am actually having fun with this. I picked a hard topic, electrostatic loudspeakers. That is my core project. I have some more questions on high voltage if you don't mind.
[03:24:47] <Tom_itx> a heat source for sure
[03:25:43] <archivist> about 1968 first time I saw an electrostatic speaker
[03:26:22] <archivist> was a radio and TV apprentice at the time
[03:27:01] <Mr_Mayhem> I want to drive the electrostatic loudspeakers using something other than step-up transformers or tube amps. Can I string mosfets and drive it directly, maybe with opto-isolation? And can a class D or E amp as found in tesla coil drivers work for pulse width modulation of the audio on carrier?
[03:27:35] <Mr_Mayhem> I see those things and wonder what may be most quality of sound.
[03:27:57] <archivist> will the golden ears hear any error
[03:28:25] <archivist> or audiophools as otherwise known
[03:28:27] <Mr_Mayhem> I was blown away by my first two prototypes, but use transformers.
[03:28:28] <Loetmichel> archivist: i was still in production back in '68
[03:28:48] <archivist> you are still a kid!
[03:29:03] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: mosfets are aviablöe up to 2kV
[03:29:06] <Loetmichel> aviable
[03:29:36] <Loetmichel> archivist: but i started with electronics at age 6
[03:29:49] <Loetmichel> so i have plenty of experience for my age ;-)
[03:30:14] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmmm. I need like 4 to 5 to be comfortable at 300 milliamps or so.
[03:30:22] <Loetmichel> i could solder an read ciruits before i could read test
[03:30:26] <Loetmichel> text
[03:30:34] <Mr_Mayhem> 4 to 5 kilovolts at 300ma.
[03:30:47] <Loetmichel> the 300mA are easy
[03:30:53] <archivist> I did my first customer repair in Libya (record player) 1964/5 ish
[03:31:12] <archivist> aged about 12
[03:31:18] <Loetmichel> and there may be 4kV mosfets ot there, but one could alwys sierialize the 2kV types#
[03:31:29] <RyanS> Loetmichel so you are like the Mozart of electronics?
[03:31:42] <Mr_Mayhem> both of them seem to be.
[03:31:44] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[03:31:47] <Loetmichel> RyanS: no, not a genuis, just a early starter
[03:31:47] <archivist> servo control the speaker membrane
[03:32:38] <archivist> laser distance from the frame mebe
[03:32:38] <Mr_Mayhem> ok, so close the loop around the pwm? Or do it all analog audio only?
[03:32:49] <Mr_Mayhem> With feedback.
[03:32:59] <archivist> possible I think
[03:33:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Too many nodes to laser it for servo.
[03:33:32] <archivist> and if the switching F is well out of range should be ok
[03:33:36] <Mr_Mayhem> The whole thing is a mess in slow motion.
[03:33:57] <archivist> waves across the face
[03:34:14] <Mr_Mayhem> I could servo using the current maybe...
[03:34:19] <Mr_Mayhem> yeah, it ripples.
[03:34:53] <archivist> current...it is a voltage drive
[03:34:53] <Mr_Mayhem> Like a struck pond or drum, its chaotic.
[03:35:18] <Mr_Mayhem> to an extent, anyway.,
[03:35:46] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, voltage drive, the current flows back in and out low losses.
[03:35:58] <Mr_Mayhem> like sloshing kind of.
[03:36:29] <archivist> the only current should be charging the plate capacitance and that will be out of phase
[03:36:42] <Mr_Mayhem> right.
[03:37:24] <Mr_Mayhem> varies with freq some too maybe. Getting to the "over my pay grade" point almost.
[03:38:46] <Mr_Mayhem> So, if I wanted to close the loop, I should feed back the voltage? And of what, the diaphragm or the differential between the stators?
[03:39:18] <Mr_Mayhem> This is where I start to lose my understanding.
[03:39:23] <Loetmichel> Mr_Mayhem: why would you want to close the loop?
[03:39:50] <archivist> to me the diaphram position is the loop to close
[03:39:53] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean to linearize the mosfets/opti-isolators.
[03:39:58] <Loetmichel> static speakers are especially made because of the linear voltage_> force
[03:40:08] <Loetmichel> so that you dont NEED closed loop
[03:40:08] <Mr_Mayhem> negative feedback assumption.
[03:41:24] <Mr_Mayhem> I will certainly try first without feedback, yes. But will I notice the non-linearity of the drive or maybe make it more linear using feedback of the output?
[03:42:31] <Mr_Mayhem> You are saying just design it basic, without feedback. Maybe that is fine.
[03:43:39] <Mr_Mayhem> Stack 2 or 4 mosfets in series, and see what happens. I found a circuit with 2, I will start there.
[03:44:22] <Mr_Mayhem> You see, this is at the edge of my knowlege, so sorry if I am off base on this topic.
[03:44:34] <RyanS> Those home-made propane forges seem like a surefire way to kill yourself. Although would be cool to make
[03:45:07] <RyanS> I would have thought it need flashback arresters
[03:53:39] <Mr_Mayhem> By the way, the issue I see with using laser diagphragm positon is the membrane is all over the place; it is not a piston as asserted by all the write ups. It follows modal patterns like the waving sheet. Also, it is eliptical shape of displacement viewed from the front. I would think harmonics due to side-reflections would contribute nasty artifacts to the feedback signal even if it was
[03:53:39] <Mr_Mayhem> clean optically. So I would be happy with voltage feedback or maybe no feedback, just bias it best I can.
[03:54:28] <Mr_Mayhem> But Archivist, I love do love the concept.
[03:54:44] <Mr_Mayhem> It would be so neat to make that work.
[03:55:07] <archivist> you could measure the average movement
[03:55:15] <Mr_Mayhem> I read servo papers on subwoofers, and they have all kinds of issues even with that.
[03:55:20] <Mr_Mayhem> maybe
[03:55:40] <Mr_Mayhem> average. where to cut the filter off. Hmm.
[03:55:48] <archivist> yes I know speakers are funky and have problems
[03:56:08] <Mr_Mayhem> Non-linear movement is like waving sheet.
[03:56:21] <Mr_Mayhem> or even a whip.
[03:56:23] <archivist> average means measure the distance all over the sheet
[03:56:32] <Mr_Mayhem> ahh
[03:56:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmmmm.
[03:57:01] <archivist> dont care about the ripples then just the total effect
[03:57:32] <Mr_Mayhem> Ok, I like that idea.
[03:58:01] <Mr_Mayhem> Would need a way to sense it, an array of sensors? Or some kind of sweep, hehe
[03:58:25] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe another memnbrane near the first one?
[03:58:27] <archivist> or an electrostatic method at the front with a grill
[03:58:33] <Mr_Mayhem> measure the capacitence
[03:59:56] <Mr_Mayhem> I do notice the simple analog method is easier and more effective.
[04:00:26] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean compared to complex digital systems or what have you.
[04:02:08] <archivist> but any thing you produce may fail any EMI test :)
[04:02:14] <Mr_Mayhem> See, any capacitence sensor would need to be close to the thing we are measuring due to inverse square laws of the strength of field. It fades off fast.
[04:02:27] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah! fcc not happy perhaps...hehe
[04:03:20] <Mr_Mayhem> Yet we want to capture the whole area at once. We have a stator close in on each side. Not much room to play around in.
[04:04:06] <Mr_Mayhem> I wonder if it can be derived from other voltages somehow. Probably not.
[04:04:48] <Mr_Mayhem> Now you got me stuck in a think-loop.
[04:05:35] <archivist> I know how to produce mayhem in people :)
[04:05:41] <Mr_Mayhem> yeah
[04:06:59] <Mr_Mayhem> See, I got that name in camp when I was like 9, because I stirred up so much trouble. I was ADD hyper-spaz. And I liked stuff with lots of wires and buttons.
[04:07:54] <Mr_Mayhem> I was the kid making rockets and remote controlled gizmos. And my cb radio was way beyond the legall limit.
[04:08:21] <Mr_Mayhem> I would modulate the house lights when on single sideband radio.
[04:09:11] <Mr_Mayhem> I could be heard in toasters and blenders, not to mention telephones, tv, etc.
[04:10:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Did a stint of satellite comm in the army, did tv satellite broadcast tech, then a bit in software for ivr.
[04:10:34] <Mr_Mayhem> Phone voice mail, etc.
[04:11:13] <Mr_Mayhem> Now I am trying to make nice speakers.
[04:11:33] <Mr_Mayhem> Thanks for the insights, I will experiment on these ideas.
[04:13:10] <archivist> I collect old information http://www.collection.archivist.info/ if you ever need any that google cannot find
[04:14:46] <Mr_Mayhem> Your services are highly valued. There is no joy like finding an original manual for gear.
[04:16:51] <Mr_Mayhem> I would like that job, collecting all the technical goodies and orginizing them. I will start with a cnc how to and branch from there.
[04:18:02] <Mr_Mayhem> There is so much important ideas and documents, etc, that seem to fall off mankind's wagon dispite the internet.
[04:18:31] <Mr_Mayhem> esp technical know how related stuff.
[04:18:45] <archivist> yup, people like to tidy up
[05:49:36] <njh> Hello, I have a question about stepper driver timing configuration
[05:49:39] <njh> "Direction Hold - How long the direction pin is held after a change of direction in nanoseconds."
[05:49:58] <njh> So that it the time from changing direction to the next step pulse?
[05:55:06] <jthornton> that sounds correct http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/stepgen.9.html
[05:56:00] <njh> jthornton: ah, thanks for that man page
[06:06:32] <skroon> hi
[06:07:00] <skroon> in machine coordinates, should the home of the z axis be 0? or should it be the max height (in my case 120.000 mm) ?
[06:07:51] <archivist> 0 it at the top and you cut -
[06:07:52] <Mr_Mayhem> good question. Mine is just at the deck or so, and I cut above it.
[06:08:06] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe mine is backwards then.
[06:08:29] <skroon> right, i'm getting confused about it as well, I understand both is possible
[06:08:50] <archivist> sometimes I think the conventions are not right
[06:08:58] <Mr_Mayhem> I guess it boils down to what works better in practice.
[06:09:01] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/gen05.html
[06:09:44] <skroon> when i'm in WCS, I understand that Z is 0 when it touches the top of my surface though
[06:09:54] <skroon> but in MCS I think that Z axis is my max height
[06:10:30] <Mr_Mayhem> Man if I had to change, I'd really have to bend those brain cells to flip the thing upside down.
[06:11:00] <Mr_Mayhem> I touch off above home on the z axis as it sits now. But I am new to the game.
[06:11:29] <Mr_Mayhem> I use home to keep from going through the table.
[06:11:49] <Mr_Mayhem> Plus I adjust the spindle accordingly so it can't anyway.
[06:12:10] <Mr_Mayhem> height of spindle so it can't even if it wanted to.
[06:13:18] <Mr_Mayhem> I guess look at a few how to home 101 videos or whatever.
[06:40:09] <R2E4_> Videos? Where?....hehe
[06:40:45] <Mr_Mayhem> hmmm
[06:40:48] <Mr_Mayhem> let me see
[06:41:23] <R2E4_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuVH_16vRg Thats a good one.
[06:43:33] <Mr_Mayhem> https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_160291&feature=iv&src_vid=XUugLGRtY-4&v=CZWkIbrykYs maybe?
[06:45:41] <Mr_Mayhem> look at neo7cnc.com good videos but more advanced here and there. I don't know if he explains setup. You tube here https://www.youtube.com/user/radioshack7/videos
[06:45:56] <Mr_Mayhem> Not linux though.
[06:46:17] <Mr_Mayhem> But this shouldn't matter for the issue you have.
[06:47:02] <Mr_Mayhem> CNC Router Setup and use video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdnCXKYpwiQ
[06:47:27] <R2E4_> hehe..... its good refresher, but I have built two cnc routers with Mach3, this is not breakthrough stuff.
[06:48:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Homemade DIY CNC router, tutorial #1 How to set up a CNC with Linux CNC / Emc2
[06:48:23] <Mr_Mayhem> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaR0MgrWzUY
[06:48:58] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, understand. Just gotta target the issue. I am braketing :-)
[06:50:12] <R2E4_> I think most everyone would be able get their cards and run conf wizards and get a default basic bones setup done. ITs the next step where the issue lies.
[06:50:34] <Mr_Mayhem> Earlier today I wrote here we need a really concise how to set of videos with good seperation of chapter topics so people can zoom to what they need. It's a wide field, but I say the core should be pretty rigerously covered.
[06:51:40] <Mr_Mayhem> I am on cnc 1, with homing switches and driver cards on the way. Had to replace some blown ones. Also Mesa interface cards.
[06:52:09] <R2E4_> servos or steppers?
[06:52:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Did the Mesa, waiting on the delivery of the rest. Even got the spindle to work using speed control via 10v input to motor controller.
[06:52:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Steppers.
[06:54:59] <Mr_Mayhem> What, steppers too low class for you big servo people? Just kidding.
[06:55:42] <R2E4_> haha, I am using steppers on my cnc routers. I am putting linuxcnc on big vmc with big servos
[06:56:10] <Mr_Mayhem> Nice. I want one too.
[06:56:24] <Mr_Mayhem> But can't afford one yet.
[06:56:32] <Mr_Mayhem> Same old sad song.
[06:56:46] <Mr_Mayhem> I am addicted to machine porn.
[06:57:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Such nice machines making turbine blades, oohhh.
[06:57:25] <R2E4_> I spent too much on this and it is not working yet......
[06:57:41] <R2E4_> I bought it as a working machine and it did not power up.
[06:57:47] <Mr_Mayhem> Doh!
[06:58:07] <R2E4_> yeah, I am out 6 grand
[06:58:34] <R2E4_> Screwed, Blued and tatoo'd.
[06:58:59] <Mr_Mayhem> Well, during the day there are some real hard core machine retrofitters around, you won't have to work hard to get a precise answer to questions then.
[06:59:46] <Mr_Mayhem> They are good people here on this channel who know their shit. I am starting out pretty much.
[07:00:22] <R2E4_> Yeah, but you dont really want to bother them with basic basic stuff. They get pissed and point you to the manual you have been staring at for the past w hours....hehe
[07:00:24] <Mr_Mayhem> So, don't dispair, maybe someone find cheaper ways to address your non-working machine.
[07:00:40] <Mr_Mayhem> hhehe
[07:00:52] <jthornton> R2E4, what are you converting?
[07:01:13] <R2E4_> ICradek said something that made me laugh on the floor for hours last night.
[07:01:25] <R2E4_> jthornton: hitachi vm40
[07:02:17] <jthornton> nice one
[07:02:39] <jthornton> I have one machine left to convert a Bridgeport Discovery 308 VMC
[07:02:53] <R2E4_> I am at the point where I have to get servo amp manual translated from Jap to english, to see what kind of enable signal for the drives they take
[07:03:42] <jthornton> that sucks when the docs are not in English
[07:03:45] <R2E4_> I was going to convert my BP R2E4 but everything worked when I powered it up, so I left it stock.
[07:04:31] <jthornton> my 308 worked for a while now the drive is giving me problems and limits the spindle to 2k or it will trip out
[07:05:00] <R2E4_> I have to rebuil;d my head unit, it is air driven spindle speed unit
[07:06:48] <jthornton> I wish my knee mill had a rigid head...
[07:07:25] <jthornton> crap it is supposed to be a high of 16F Monday
[07:07:51] <Tom_itx> 11F
[07:09:11] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnczone_club_house/51265-hitachi_seiki_vm40_seikos_m2.html
[07:09:22] <Mr_Mayhem> Looking for manual, hmmm.
[07:14:01] <Tom_itx> maybe you should contact: http://www.1stmachineryauctions.com/lots/hitachi-seiki-vm40-iii-vertical-machining-centre-1997-
[07:14:02] <R2E4_> Been all through those posts
[07:14:30] <R2E4_> I have all the manuals, even ladder diagrams, just the servo amps are in Japeneese
[07:15:02] <Tom_itx> so what's the PN on them
[07:16:50] <R2E4_> They are sanyo denki, Dont know if I have the manual here, let me check
[07:19:11] <Tom_itx> This manual outlines the functions, wiring, installation, operations, maintenance, specifications,
[07:19:11] <Tom_itx> etc. of the AC servo amplifier Q Series Ty
[07:19:11] <Tom_itx> pe C.
[07:19:21] <Tom_itx> http://sanyo-denki.com/Data/Servo/manuals/M0007133.pdf
[07:20:27] <Tom_itx> https://db.sanyodenki.co.jp/downfile/products_e/downloadfiles/manuals/sanmotion_manuals_dlindex_e.html
[07:20:48] <R2E4_> BL827 amps, two 27BA030FXT and one 27 BA050FXT
[07:29:38] <Tom_itx> http://www.galilmc.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=printthread&Board=1&main=107&type=thread
[07:30:40] <R2E4_> Are you kidding me? I've been looking for this info for 4 months.
[07:30:53] <Tom_itx> in the wrong place?
[07:32:01] <Tom_itx> time to go...
[07:32:02] <Tom_itx> bye
[07:32:13] <R2E4_> bye, thanks Tom
[07:33:11] <jthornton> http://home.mnet-online.de/erikschuster/misc.htm#simplegcodegenerator
[07:53:42] <R2E4_> Maybe I should just sell parts...... They go for a ton....http://stores.ebay.ca/industrialservo/BL-Super-/_i.html?_fsub=2675359014
[07:55:37] <Jymmm> and refurbs too
[07:56:33] <R2E4_> They really selling them at that price? thats freaking nuts....
[07:56:38] <Jymmm> http://search.ebay.com/200659618740
[07:57:22] <Jymmm> Condition:
[07:57:22] <Jymmm> Seller refurbished: An item that has been restored to working order by the eBay seller or a third party not approved by the manufacturer.
[07:58:56] <archivist> Seller refurbished: we wiped the dust off it
[07:59:24] <R2E4_> haha..... yeah
[07:59:28] <Jymmm> we pulled it off old equipment
[08:00:18] <CaptHindsight> but all work was performed by "certified" techs!
[08:00:40] <Jymmm> Heh, same thing sold for $300 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanyo-Denki-Kawasaki-P5-P50B08100VCL69-1000W-3000RPM-AC-Servo-Motor-Encoder-/151190860212?nma=true&si=63S44tNMVWdHxdxXv58gRwi0keY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
[08:00:59] <Jymmm> and only $13 shiping instead of $65
[08:01:31] <R2E4_> thats not the motor I have
[08:01:46] <R2E4_> but prbably go that cheap.
[08:01:46] <Jymmm> Same PN
[08:01:59] <CaptHindsight> I've been following a few postings on ebay for over a year
[08:02:43] <CaptHindsight> some sellers just troll, looking to find someone that want's that exact part number for a repair or similar
[08:03:00] <R2E4_> my motors are 20BM090MXP and 20BM22014BP
[08:03:17] <archivist> how do those sellers get away without fees
[08:03:47] <CaptHindsight> after a few months of posting don't the fees stop?
[08:04:34] <CaptHindsight> wow on top of the price "This item has an extended handling time and a delivery estimate greater than 12 business days"
[08:04:40] <archivist> no idea but some buy it now at high price automagically restart and stay up forever it seems
[08:04:59] <CaptHindsight> so not only do they troll, they probably only ship once a month
[08:05:31] <archivist> like 130745880228 been in my watch a long time
[08:06:54] <R2E4_> I have a fanuc spindle amp for the spindle servo
[08:08:03] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/130904011667 heh the same seller has a street sweeper for sale
[08:15:51] <skroon> one that has a clue what the difference is between machine coordinates and joint coordinates?
[08:23:49] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/images/tno-3d-food-printer.png two years of R&D for this?
[08:25:19] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Of course. How long would it take you to be able to make, stack and package round crackers?
[08:25:25] <CaptHindsight> probably 20 months spent arguing over arduino vs smoothieboard
[08:26:16] <Jymmm> Funny thing, they used a laser to create the parts.
[08:26:40] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20131230-tno-italian-pasta-maker-barilla-working-on-3d-pasta-printers.html
[08:27:26] <Jymmm> 3D food?! lol
[08:27:37] <CaptHindsight> "We are working on improving the speed of the printer." says van Bommel. Barilla's goal is to print 15 to 20 pieces of pasta in about 2 minutes. "That would be possible." explains van Bommel. "The print speed now is ten times faster than when we started two years ago."
[08:28:05] <Jymmm> Ouch
[08:28:05] <CaptHindsight> trained monkeys would show the same progress
[08:28:28] <CaptHindsight> who funds these people?
[08:28:39] <Jymmm> Barilla
[08:30:03] <CaptHindsight> they better not put chocolate frosting in that syringe, there's a patent on that!
[08:30:49] * Jymmm patents MOCHA Frosting via 3D
[08:32:19] <skroon> height offset probing is making me nuts :-)
[08:32:25] <skroon> all those different coordination systems
[08:45:18] <TekniQue> what about laser etching the frosting
[08:45:37] <TekniQue> or laser etching the foam
[08:46:32] <JT-Shop> skroon, http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/gen05.html
[08:46:45] <Jymmm> There is for bricks and jeans
[09:10:44] * JT-Shop tries to make the same parts over again this time touching off ALL the tools
[09:12:46] <CHNCguy> hey guys ;)
[09:14:15] <CHNCguy> anyone got any opionions if i were to direct drive a ballscrew with a 8nm stepper or gear it down?
[09:15:31] <CHNCguy> i have a 5tpi ballscrew with a non microstepped 256 motor, i can microstep but dont really want to loose torque, any opinions? thanks
[09:15:37] <archivist> all depends on step accuracy, torque and speed you want
[09:16:20] <archivist> microstep improves resonance problems but does not give better accuracy
[09:17:01] <CHNCguy> well my motor is 1.8degree
[09:17:27] <archivist> what accuracy do you want
[09:17:30] <CHNCguy> and if i directdrive the motor
[09:17:51] <CHNCguy> i would like 0.0001, the same as factory
[09:18:05] <CaptHindsight> 2.5um
[09:18:08] <somenewguy> microstepping in half steps increases torque over full stepping, no?
[09:18:13] <CHNCguy> bbut 0.0005 is ok
[09:18:59] <CaptHindsight> yes, 7.5um is more realistic
[09:19:04] <somenewguy> andmore importantly helps with resonance. I was always of the understanding unless you either can't generate a fast enough pulse train, or you cant afford the electronics, there is no real reason not to microstep
[09:19:06] <archivist> microstepping cannot increase torque as half step has coils not energised
[09:19:22] <CaptHindsight> sorry 12.5um
[09:19:43] <somenewguy> is it quarter? ugh just when Ifinally think I understand something..
[09:20:05] <archivist> he is me playing with accuracy http://www.archivist.info/cnc/screw_error/
[09:20:10] <archivist> here
[09:20:41] <CaptHindsight> somenewguy: 5tpi with a single start? just making sure
[09:20:52] <somenewguy> wrong guy
[09:21:05] <CaptHindsight> too early for me
[09:21:19] <somenewguy> heh, I just didn't sleep so it still counts as lat for me
[09:21:22] <archivist> some background reading p://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities.aspx
[09:21:22] <CaptHindsight> CHNCguy: 5tpi with a single start? just making sure
[09:23:02] <CaptHindsight> 5tpi single with 1.8 deg/step motor = 0.001" per step
[09:24:47] <archivist> now read http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities.aspx and realise you need 16 microsteps to get to better than .0001 but that the stepper may not have the torque to get anywhere near
[09:25:01] <CaptHindsight> with 2:1 reduction you'll get the 0.0005"
[09:25:30] <CaptHindsight> if everything else in the system has enough tolerance, torque etc etc
[09:25:31] <pcw_home> yes, in any case microstepping does not change the basic displacement vs torque curve of the
[09:25:33] <pcw_home> step motor roughly 1/200 turn (90 electrical degrees) displacement needed for full rated torque
[09:25:41] <archivist> not seen any accuracy specs on timing belts yet :)
[09:26:06] <Jymmm> 360 / 1.8 degrees per step = 200 SPR (steps per revolution)
[09:26:27] <Jymmm> SPR * TPI * Microstepping * ratio
[09:26:34] <Jymmm> iirc =)
[09:26:35] <CaptHindsight> archivist: we use them in drives with single arc second accuracy, same as Newport
[09:26:49] <archivist> CaptHindsight, measured?
[09:26:54] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[09:27:18] <archivist> making pulleys good enough++
[09:27:30] <CaptHindsight> Newport will actually send the readout with each drive
[09:28:17] <CaptHindsight> some of the drives are >$10K though
[09:28:27] <CHNCguy> sorry guys got dcd, what did i miss ;)?
[09:28:46] <CaptHindsight> an entire conversation about your issues
[09:29:26] <CHNCguy> aww can u pm me it?
[09:29:42] <archivist> bookmark
[09:29:48] <CaptHindsight> all pm's are metered
[09:30:07] <archivist> there are a number of online logs of the channel
[09:30:13] <CHNCguy> metered?
[09:30:23] <CHNCguy> how can i access the logs?
[09:30:39] <archivist> http://emclog.archivist.info/
[09:30:43] <CaptHindsight> $10 for educated guesses, half truths 50 cents ea
[09:30:57] <somenewguy> true, the way I always think of microstepping was that when youincrease the number of steps past half steping you are not actually gaining resolution.
[09:31:28] <archivist> I usually stick to half step
[09:31:32] <somenewguy> just smoothness and imaginary extra torque. imaginary in the sense your system is not stronger, but rather smoother and less likely to shake its way out of synch
[09:32:13] <CaptHindsight> CHNCguy: how close is the motors torque to your estimated needs?
[09:32:44] <archivist> !wench learn bookmark is yet another log is at http://emclog.archivist.info/
[09:32:45] <the_wench> I have learned bookmark is yet another log is at http://emclog.archivist.info/
[09:32:48] <somenewguy> I learned a lot when I discovered one of my steppers has so much detent torque, regardless of what microstepping i had it set to, unloaded it still only had 400 ppr regardles...
[09:33:43] <archivist> I have been playing with a large stepper here the last few weeks and resonance is terrible
[09:34:18] <CHNCguy> sorry gtg thanks guys
[09:55:47] <skroon> I zerod my working material (top of material is 0) and after some milling, I chagend the tool, now I calculated the new tool length
[09:56:08] <skroon> however, how do I then in the next step, make sure my tool goes back to the right level? as-in compensation for the new tool length
[09:57:18] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140102-south-africas-3d-printed-chocolate-factory.html
[09:58:03] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/images/giant-3d-printer-chocolate-1.jpg it just oozes quality
[09:58:06] <JT-Shop> skroon, use tool touch off again
[09:58:25] <skroon> JT-Shop: you mean touch off, of the surface material again?
[10:01:26] <JT-Shop> yes, is the next Op coded for the top of the material to be Z0?
[10:02:12] <skroon> JT-Shop: i'm currently just playiing with MDI, trying to understand how a tool change is working when I have to change a tool half way through my object
[10:02:31] <skroon> I thought it would do a G42 H2 (when using 2 as the next tool) for example
[10:03:29] <JT-Shop> what kind of tool holders do you use?
[10:03:42] <skroon> JT-Shop: just manual
[10:04:22] <JT-Shop> like a collet?
[10:05:02] <JT-Shop> ie. you can't preset tools in holders and swap holders?
[10:05:22] <skroon> JT-Shop: yeah sorry, a collet indeed
[10:05:44] <skroon> JT-Shop: well i'm milling pcb's so it's really accurate that I have it correct
[10:05:44] <JT-Shop> split your G code up into one for each tool
[10:06:41] <R2E4_> cant you touch off a known z level to change the tool offset?
[10:06:42] <skroon> well, i'm also probing the surface to make sure i'm having z height compensation, since my has a couple of um's of height difference
[10:07:15] <skroon> but that wouldn't matter if I do a touch off, on the exact 0,0 work piece coordinates I think right ?
[10:09:41] <JT-Shop> if you have a Z0 point to touch off each tool then you can do a G54 Z offset to the material top for the first tool then the rest will be correct
[10:17:17] <skroon> JT-Shop: ah right, so you touch off again, and then set WCS Z axis back to 0 right ?
[10:18:40] <JT-Shop> WCS?
[10:18:56] <skroon> work cooridnate system
[10:18:57] <skroon> sorry :)
[10:19:20] <JT-Shop> you mean like G54?
[10:19:28] <skroon> yeah
[10:19:53] <JT-Shop> you only need to set the G54 offset for the first tool if your touching off the tool table to a fixture
[10:20:00] <JT-Shop> for each tool
[10:20:59] <JT-Shop> so touch off first tool to a fixture and set Z0 for the tool table, then touch off to the material and set G54 Z0
[10:21:22] <JT-Shop> next tool just touch off the tool table to Z0 on your fixture
[10:22:53] <toastwork> hey, is there a kins file or something for machines that have a stroke action
[10:23:10] <toastwork> but that sometimes have a profiling action on that axis?
[10:23:12] <JT-Shop> like a shaper?
[10:23:17] <toastwork> yes
[10:23:37] <toastwork> shapers and grinders
[10:23:39] <archivist> not sure you need a kins
[10:23:55] <JT-Shop> seems like trivkins would work for that
[10:23:59] <toastwork> I don't know how emc works, i'm just asking how it works
[10:24:07] <toastwork> it being "an optional linear axis"
[10:24:24] <toastwork> i.e. if i wanted to program a shaper or grinder in 2d only mode, and then switch it later to a 3d mode
[10:24:38] <JT-Shop> for a shaper I would assume the ram is Z and the table is X and Y
[10:24:46] <skroon> "Z0 for tool table" would that be the machines coordinate's Z0 ? e.g. G53 Z0 ?
[10:24:46] <CaptHindsight> who was asking within the past few days about lower cost used centerless grinders?
[10:24:56] <toastwork> capt - that was me
[10:25:21] <toastwork> JT-Shop: sure, that convention works; i only know of one CNC shaper
[10:25:28] <toastwork> so there's really no convention for shapers
[10:25:43] <CaptHindsight> there is a grinding shop near me that has a few bad ones (dead controls)
[10:26:09] <toastwork> I can't house any right now, I was just frustrated that the cost seems to be so high (even for full manual and dead cnc ones)
[10:26:18] <CaptHindsight> but these are big 5+tons
[10:26:44] <toastwork> yeah, girlfriend and I will be moving into a warehouse, big/cheap machines aren't a problem
[10:26:45] <CaptHindsight> he only wanted a few $K
[10:27:20] <toastwork> at least where i used to live, some shop owners would give their machines away or sell at less than scrap price if they knew it was going to be restored
[10:27:28] <CaptHindsight> I don't have the time
[10:27:36] <toastwork> but i didn't have anywhere to put 30 foot openside planer
[10:28:09] <toastwork> that had both milling and grinding/planing feeds
[10:28:18] <toastwork> tragedy, i suppose
[10:28:37] <toastwork> but archivist, re: shaper, how does that work? how does EMC know to only move after a stroke is finished
[10:28:37] <CaptHindsight> I only bought his ($3K new) taiwan manual grinder for $300
[10:29:15] <archivist> toastwork, you can gcode it
[10:29:18] <CaptHindsight> how is the "stroke" controlled? as an I/O or as an axis?
[10:29:25] <toastwork> CaptHindsight: that's the shitter, both
[10:29:50] <archivist> you can play with connection in hal too
[10:29:56] <toastwork> on grinders and shapers, the 3rd axis can be set to either stroke mode (2 dimensional) or profiling (3d)
[10:30:01] <JT-Shop> skroon, what do you have set for Tool Touch off in the Machine menu?
[10:30:22] <CaptHindsight> same here with my accessories (laser, inkjet, light modulators, projectors etc etc)
[10:30:28] <JT-Shop> read about that here http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gui/axis.html#_menu_items
[10:30:42] <someone972> How does one go about enabling debug output from the motion module? I can't seem to find exactly what to do.
[10:31:09] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/ini_config.html#_emc_section_a_id_sub_emc_section_a
[10:31:34] <JT-Shop> someone972, ^^
[10:31:36] <toastwork> so i guess my question is "is there an easy way to have a reciprocating axis"
[10:31:53] <toastwork> where x/y do not move for the duration of the stroke
[10:31:54] <JT-Shop> yep, just program it in G code
[10:32:05] <toastwork> that sounds horrifying
[10:32:14] <archivist> why, its trivial
[10:32:43] <JT-Shop> a few lines of G code and it could stroke all day
[10:32:59] <CaptHindsight> toastwork: does the reciprocating axis require anything other than start and stop at two fixed points?
[10:33:05] <toastwork> CaptHindsight: nope
[10:33:16] <JT-Shop> toastwork, http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode/o-code.html#sec:looping
[10:33:34] <toastwork> the other issue is that the ram is completely uncontrolled
[10:33:43] <toastwork> it is not a cnc axis
[10:33:51] <toastwork> you have limit switches and a hydraulic ram
[10:34:00] <CaptHindsight> toastwork: can you wire it as an digital I/O, say some pin goes high for a forward stroke and low for reverse
[10:34:21] <CaptHindsight> or one pin for forward and another for reverse
[10:35:06] <someone972> That debug parameter doesn't seem to affect the rtapi_print_msg code in the motion module :/
[10:35:19] <toastwork> so there's no way, without basically kludging around it with a loop, to have intermittant motion?
[10:35:22] <someone972> Even with 0x7FFFFFFF
[10:36:07] <toastwork> it seems like having some sort of module to control axis motion types would be useful for more than just grinders and shapers
[10:36:17] <toastwork> turret punches, edm
[10:36:35] <CaptHindsight> 3d printers, including glue guns
[10:37:07] <CaptHindsight> process control vs pure cnc machine
[10:38:22] <toastwork> because in profiling mode, the many grinders don't actually control the drive axis, they just watch the drive axis move and try to keep up with it
[10:39:10] <toastwork> is there a way to replace the logic for g1/g2/g3 etc?
[10:39:58] <CaptHindsight> you and I might be the only ones to use it for a while so we'd also have to support those changes to linuxcnc
[10:40:50] <toastwork> i need to move before I do any emc projects
[10:41:35] <CaptHindsight> I've been using parallel controls for my accessories and using linuxcnc for just motion control of servos
[10:42:55] <toastwork> that actually seems like a project i could tackle if i had a thing to work on
[10:42:56] <CaptHindsight> it works fine but it's expensive for a low cost consumer device, it's not there yet, but they will be soon
[10:45:32] <toastwork> are you a programmer?
[10:45:37] <toastwork> (computer programmer of any sort)
[10:47:30] <CaptHindsight> I try not to touch code as much as possible myself but I have developers available
[10:49:46] <archivist> toastwork, you can also gear axes together in hal so you could follow something
[10:51:16] <toastwork> ...that's hot for entirely different reasons
[10:52:19] <toastwork> that makes CNC tracer attachments super easy
[10:55:15] <toastwork> I could take a dead lathe and use it as a copy tracer for any machine in the shop
[10:55:21] <toastwork> that's insane.
[10:55:33] <archivist> this being an example http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Hobbing
[10:56:05] <toastwork> damn
[10:56:35] <toastwork> that's really cool
[10:58:59] <toastwork> archivist: side question since I'm asking about emc, how does it handle stuff like feed rate knobs?
[10:59:09] <toastwork> is it just monitoring an input for a change
[10:59:22] <toastwork> (feed rate override/rapid override)
[10:59:58] <toastwork> and then tell it to do something like (programmed rate) * override
[11:00:17] <archivist> there are sliders in axis to play with those settings and they could be driven off knobs I suppose, I have not tried
[11:01:11] <toastwork> last stupid question, how hard is it to replace the GUI buttons with something else (like, fanuc-style buttons and tool touch off)
[11:01:36] <toastwork> i know there are multiple guis so I assume it's not incredibly daunting?
[11:01:49] <toastwork> I've programmed java guis before, but nothing else
[11:01:51] <archivist> I luckily have never touched a fanuc
[11:03:48] <toastwork> from what I can see and from talking to people, emc stomps fanuc for programming hands down, but fanuc stomps emc for setup
[11:03:55] <archivist> but I have been playing with the hobbing setup and added meters to suit the encoder and stepper maximums and gear tooth number http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/mirror/JS/IMG_1731.JPG
[11:04:01] <toastwork> but that's all UI, not innate anything
[11:04:47] <toastwork> encoder/stepper maximums?
[11:05:14] <archivist> max frequency
[11:06:22] <toastwork> oh
[11:06:23] <archivist> basically this is going on a manual ish machine so it will go into the red if he chooses something that may error
[11:06:46] <toastwork> has anyone set up true manual/cnc hybrid machine
[11:07:02] <toastwork> with feeds and handwheels
[11:07:15] <archivist> I think a few have done so with encoder handwheels
[11:07:45] <TekniQue> I manually operate my cnc all the time by typing g code into the linuxcnc nc console
[11:07:59] <toastwork> we had this big damn cnc lathe (it was as big as our mori seiki 30"x50", 50 hp lathe)
[11:08:06] <toastwork> and it had full "manual" controls on it
[11:08:38] <toastwork> two jog wheels, and you could switch the momentary feed buttons into actual feed mode
[11:09:15] <toastwork> and so do manual machining with it
[11:09:22] <toastwork> it was pretty sweet, too bad the machine itself was shady as shit (estop didn't stop the spindle)
[11:09:30] <toastwork> 50 hp spindle with no estop
[11:09:40] <toastwork> and 3 gears
[11:10:02] <toastwork> absolutely nothing was stopping it in low gear if things went south
[11:10:15] <CaptHindsight> sounds like the mach3 setup on the matussura i got
[11:10:27] <CaptHindsight> dangerous
[11:10:54] <toastwork> matussuras are no joke either
[11:11:03] <CaptHindsight> with estop pressed and you power off the PC the spindle starts up at the last set speed
[11:11:42] <skunkworks_> heh - no charge pump/watchdog
[11:12:08] <CaptHindsight> and some "custom" PLC programming :)
[11:13:40] * skunkworks_ hugs linuxcnc and mesa
[11:14:04] <toastwork> i'm still mad that company didn't use EMC
[11:14:20] <toastwork> they had several CNC projects and they were all shit weird controls
[11:15:14] <TekniQue> CaptHindsight: nice
[11:15:22] <toastwork> the biggest project was a weird industrial control from giddings & lewis that never worked right
[11:15:45] <toastwork> and took decades to program a part
[11:21:09] <toastwork> sigh
[11:21:16] <toastwork> this is making me sad I can't move yet
[11:22:19] <TekniQue> yeah when you've experienced the rest of the market, linuxcnc really is top notch
[11:23:36] <toastwork> the only commercial replacement controls we had that went well were fanuc clones
[11:24:09] <toastwork> we had a midsized horizontal mill from the 60s that had an aftermarket mitsubishi control, but mitsubishi makes big ass boring mills
[11:24:18] <toastwork> so I'd expect them to not be retarded
[11:24:37] <toastwork> I have no idea why G&L was retarded, they also make giant machines but usually use fanuc or yasnac controls
[11:24:44] <toastwork> that's probably why
[11:32:32] <toastwork> what do you guys do with geared head lathes on conversion? Do you keep any of the gears, remove them, or what?
[11:33:05] <jdh> I'm removing mine
[11:36:18] <TekniQue> yeah there's no need for the gears when you have a spindle encoder
[11:36:31] <TekniQue> so you can make spindle synchronised feeds
[11:36:33] <toastwork> well i meant from a torque perspective
[11:36:55] <toastwork> i didn't know if anyone had trouble with heavy cuts after removing the gears
[11:37:07] <TekniQue> oh you mean the spindle drive gears
[11:37:16] <toastwork> yeah, sorry
[11:37:43] <TekniQue> I don't see a reason to change those
[11:37:47] <toastwork> like, most of the cnc lathes i used had 3 gears, vs the 27 or whatever most manual lathes have
[11:37:53] <TekniQue> yeah
[11:38:04] <TekniQue> modern manual lathes have just 2 or 3 gears actually
[11:38:16] <TekniQue> with a VFD for finer control
[11:38:18] <toastwork> yeah, vfd
[11:38:51] <TekniQue> because these days, a VFD is far cheaper than all those gears
[11:39:01] <TekniQue> and far nicer to use as well
[11:39:14] <TekniQue> I love being able to speed up and slow down the spindle while cutting
[11:39:17] <toastwork> as long as you don't have excessive torque requirements, then yeah
[11:40:12] <toastwork> non-vfd is still an option on oilfield and roll lathes
[11:40:37] <toastwork> which is hilarious, because it's more expensive
[11:40:54] <TekniQue> sure
[11:41:48] <toastwork> are you planning on using only a few gears
[11:42:05] <toastwork> low/med/hi
[11:45:54] <Connor> I went to a belt drive, 1:1, but.. I also upgraded the motor.
[11:47:51] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[12:07:01] <toastwork> has anyone built their own servo drive
[12:07:22] <toastwork> like if you wanted to use bigger motors off a machine with a dead control
[12:07:36] <toastwork> and not spend 10k on shit
[12:09:20] <archivist> there are a number of servo drive types of which some have been home brewed
[12:11:01] <archivist> skunkworks_, was getting on quite well with homebrew drives but then he found some cheap drives on fleabay
[12:20:29] <IchGuckLive> hi all happy new year
[12:20:41] <IchGuckLive> O.O ;-) b)
[12:20:47] <IchGuckLive> :B)
[12:30:34] <someone972> So if a lead screw has 20 threads per inch, single start, it would take 20 revolutions to move an inch correct?
[12:31:22] <archivist> yes
[12:31:31] <Loetmichel> someone972: its turns per inch, otherwise correct
[12:32:35] <archivist> threads per inch is ok too
[12:33:40] <Loetmichel> oh, is it?
[12:33:44] <Loetmichel> noted
[12:34:04] <IchGuckLive> 0,000125 per step if on direct mount
[12:34:15] <IchGuckLive> stepper 400steps per turn
[12:34:22] <someone972> Ok, so then if I'm using a 200 step/revolution stepper, and a maximum velocity of 3 in/sec, it would be a maximum of 20*200*3=12000 steps/second
[12:34:48] <IchGuckLive> go for 400steps/rev
[12:35:03] <IchGuckLive> 200 is a bad idee on powerignition
[12:35:25] <Loetmichel> ?
[12:35:26] <IchGuckLive> Halfstepping is more speed
[12:35:41] <IchGuckLive> and not so noicy
[12:36:39] <someone972> Either way I'm just trying to get a feel for how many steps per second to expect
[12:36:45] <Loetmichel> someone972: IchGuckLive is correct but for the wrong reasons. go for halfstep or even quarterstep or 1/8 step if your stepper driver supports that and your PC can put out the required amunt of steps/sec
[12:37:03] <someone972> I highly doubt this thing will go 3 inches/sec anyway
[12:37:07] <Loetmichel> because of smoother movement/acceleration and more torque
[12:37:07] <someone972> I see
[12:38:12] <Loetmichel> full step drive makes it realtively easy for the stepper to skip steps and/or jump them
[12:38:25] <Loetmichel> at high accelerations/speeds
[12:39:24] <archivist> mid step you have reduced the current, how is that supposed to increase torque!
[12:39:24] <archivist> I am shocked at the miss understanding of steppers
[12:39:29] <skunkworks_> heh
[12:39:42] <archivist> yes one can reduce resonance problems to microstepping
[12:39:52] <archivist> to/with
[12:40:23] <archivist> you are not getting a real increase in torque
[12:40:47] <skunkworks_> usually - higher speed is achived full stepping. half stepping is smoother with less chance of resonence, but usually lower top speed.
[12:40:49] <ler_hydra> cradek, hey there, do you know what power supply voltage you're aiming for on your delta-structure PCB-mill?
[12:41:20] <Loetmichel> archivist: ok, granted, at slow speeds the torquue stays the same
[12:42:06] <Loetmichel> but at high speeds it is usually smother because of the cited resonances and it WILL have more _useable_ torque
[12:42:13] <archivist> half step you have de energised a coil, explain same torque, you cannot
[12:43:04] <Loetmichel> the SUM of the coil current stays sthe same (or should stay the same)
[12:43:20] <Loetmichel> so the theoretical torque is identical to full step
[12:43:25] <archivist> think about the half step state
[12:43:26] <Loetmichel> exept for the resonance
[12:44:18] <Loetmichel> as i said: a proper driver will lower the currents in the individual coils ant half step to meet in sum the current at a full step
[12:47:28] <IchGuckLive> ler_hydra: 48V is on pcb ok
[12:48:06] <IchGuckLive> ler_hydra: http://foengarage.de/pcb.jpg
[12:48:13] <ler_hydra> IchGuckLive, uh, could you clarify?
[12:48:50] <IchGuckLive> ler_hydra: its better to higher then 24V so the stepeprs have more pressure and therfor run lot of faster
[12:49:37] <ler_hydra> IchGuckLive, uh, are you sure you're not meaning to talk to someone else? I don't really know what topic I've dropped into here...
[12:49:47] <IchGuckLive> ler_hydra: USA or Europ ...
[12:50:36] <ler_hydra> err... what?
[12:51:18] <IchGuckLive> i build lots of small pcb mills and 24V is not the power it needs to drill at 2m/min or faster
[12:52:49] <ler_hydra> oh, right, ok, no I was just wondering what bus voltage cradek was aiming for for a delta-structure mill he's making, fwiw that's for a servo drive so there are pretty different considerations
[12:53:20] <IchGuckLive> servo is always at 100 DC
[12:53:35] <IchGuckLive> but you dont need servo for a pcb
[12:53:37] <archivist> snce when
[12:53:55] <IchGuckLive> archivist yours are more ;-)
[12:54:12] <archivist> no your statement is just wrong
[12:54:15] <ler_hydra> IchGuckLive, I think we're talking about different topics
[12:54:27] <IchGuckLive> ok im out of this
[13:05:37] <lbl> Hi
[13:05:44] <kengu> hello
[13:06:06] <lbl> i was wondering if anyone could help me with a PWM spindle speed issue ?
[13:07:16] <pcw_home> Best just to ask your question...
[13:08:18] <lbl> i basically bought a DC speed controller that takes a PWM signal 1Khz-5Khz and the duty cycle controls the speed ... this works great when i generate the signal with a buspirate and the scopes shows everything is perfect. Then when i enable the spindle pwm i can't find the signal on the parallel port ...
[13:08:29] <jthornton> Tom_itx, another update http://gnipsel.com/files/g-code-generator/
[13:08:54] <lbl> I basically just enabled the standard spindle control thing with the stepconf gui configurator
[13:08:59] * jthornton takes a nap
[13:09:03] <archivist> lbl did you start the spindle in gcode
[13:09:13] <archivist> and set an rpm
[13:09:31] <lbl> no i just powered on the machine and started the spindle from linuxcnc and then changed the speeds manualy
[13:10:05] <lbl> i would guess that the manual controls works for spindle speed or ?
[13:11:07] <archivist> did you connect the spindle pwm to the parallel port pin in stepconf
[13:11:27] <lbl> yep i tried 3 different ones since i didn't get a signal
[13:11:47] <lbl> i only got the scope connected to the parallel port ...
[13:11:50] <archivist> some parallel ports need a pull up resister
[13:12:33] <lbl> perfect, goner try
[13:14:19] <IchGuckLive> lbl what Brek out board are you using for the hole parport connectins
[13:15:34] <IchGuckLive> lbl: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/examples_spindle.html#r1_2
[13:16:28] <IchGuckLive> lbl is all correct in the hal file connected so the pwm is enabled
[13:16:56] <lbl> i use some odd one that controls the steppers and that works fine, so i basically just wanna tap the PWM signal to another controller for the spindle
[13:17:15] <lbl> so it will be disconnected from the actual stepper board ...
[13:17:40] <lbl> not sure if the par port needs common ground ...
[13:17:56] <archivist> stepper board may have the required pull up
[13:18:11] <lbl> ya just goner pull it up on the serial port without anything connected
[13:18:20] <lbl> then check with the scope
[13:18:26] <lbl> par port even
[13:18:28] <IchGuckLive> i also asume you to use the pin on the stepper board thru the optoelectronics
[13:18:38] <archivist> serial is too high a voltage
[13:19:06] <lbl> well the board uses opto couplers ... but i don't intent to use those on the pwm signal
[13:19:37] <lbl> just pull it off the board to the speed controller depending on what signal comes out
[13:19:55] <archivist> spindles can be electrically noisy so should have optos
[13:20:53] <IchGuckLive> lbl can you upload your hal so we can see iff all is connected propper
[13:21:11] <lbl> hal file might be the first
[13:23:21] <lbl> hmm there is a lot of HAL files so
[13:23:22] <lbl> its the one with the mill name ?
[13:23:22] <IchGuckLive> yes
[13:23:27] <lbl> http://xserv.dk/19x24-mill/
[13:24:18] <lbl> PWM should be pin9
[13:24:42] <IchGuckLive> loadrt pwmgen output_type=1 realy
[13:24:55] <IchGuckLive> not 0 used
[13:25:50] <lbl> hmm so the GUI configurator docent set this for you i guess
[13:27:51] <IchGuckLive> try this example please
[13:27:54] <IchGuckLive> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/examples_spindle.html#r1_2
[13:28:12] <IchGuckLive> type 0 and scale only
[13:28:34] <lbl> give me a few ... never edited the hal file before ... only used the stepconf GUI ...
[13:29:29] <IchGuckLive> ok im off here in germany its late !!!
[13:32:34] <archivist> lbl, it is supposed to set it properly what version are you running
[13:35:06] <CaptHindsight> the spindle was so noisy on the matsuura that it would break the wireless USB mouse and keyboard connection :)
[13:35:34] <lbl> it is setup with the configuration i already got ..
[13:36:00] <lbl> the only difference is net spindle-pwm pwmgen.0.pwm => parport.0.pin-09-out ... where the GUI generates net spindle-pwm => parport.0.pin-09-out instead
[13:37:08] <lbl> so i guessing that its working even tho i can't see the signal on the par port ... but i don't have the schematics for the stepper board ... so i don't know if pin 9 is grounded or something
[13:37:42] <lbl> so pull up resistor ... is there a dedicated power line on the par port ?
[13:38:21] <lbl> seems like there isn't a dedicated power line on the par port ... at least wikipedia says so
[13:40:07] <cradek> ler_hydra: I think it's 42-44v
[13:41:03] <ler_hydra> cradek, ok, do you know how tolerant the power supply is of absorbing regenerative power? Can it sink power at all, and if not how high can the voltage rise without damage?
[13:42:07] <cradek> I'm not sure. I think it's regulated based on transformer-based pixie dust. so it's not a fragile switcher or anything, but I don't know anything concrete about it
[13:42:28] <cradek> it requires two hands to lift
[13:42:33] <ler_hydra> Oh ok, so most likely transformer/rectifier/cap-bank?
[13:42:50] <ler_hydra> oh, or is there some regulation in it?
[13:43:08] <archivist> lbl no dedicated on the par port, a lot of people steal 5v from the usb for that
[13:43:09] <cradek> it certainly has some kind of regulation
[13:43:16] <cradek> I think there's a knob to adjust the output
[13:43:41] <cradek> but it doesn't have more than a transistor or two. it looks like war surplus.
[13:44:07] <lbl> archivist: ha ... i will just steal it from the 5v rail on the PSU ...
[13:44:34] <archivist> :)
[13:45:01] <ler_hydra> cradek, ah, ok. Hmm, ok, I'll add a mounted braking resistor PCB to what I'm sending you, I'll see if I can scrounge a potentiometer to be able to adjust the trigger voltage but if not I'll set it to trigger at around 45V and release at around 43V. (If that sounds reasonable to you)
[13:45:31] <cradek> that sounds perfect
[13:46:03] <ler_hydra> cradek, err, sorry, did I miss anything?
[13:46:08] <cradek> "that sounds perfect"
[13:46:15] <ler_hydra> haha, great
[13:46:20] <Mr_Mayhem> Hardy way to do ttl signals with no ripple, lol. Sounds like a boat anchor.
[13:46:46] <Mr_Mayhem> Use it to power one led.
[13:48:10] <Mr_Mayhem> There are lots of good parts in computer power supplies. I regret throwing my old one out.
[13:50:19] <CaptHindsight> people throw out lots of things or sell them for next to nothing on ebay
[13:51:06] <CaptHindsight> I just picked up a 2GHz digital Tek scope for $250 since they didn't bother running the calibration and thought the self test fail was serious
[13:51:22] <Mr_Mayhem> That's one way to stock up on parts. I guess a hot air gun can be your best friend.
[13:51:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Nice find, that oscope.
[13:51:32] <archivist> lucky bar steward
[13:52:33] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmmm, look up 2ghz broken oscope on ebay or craigslist....
[13:53:12] <Mr_Mayhem> see if there are any other suckers doing it.... hehe
[13:54:17] <CaptHindsight> the US gov throws out lots of perfectly good equipment when a project gets canceled or ends
[13:55:25] <Mr_Mayhem> nice. Now to find the govt dumpster complex..
[13:55:51] <archivist> a few years back gov surplus in the uk was ok, got a few toys
[13:57:24] <lbl> hmm ... so i should be abel to see the par port PWM signal on pin 9 if i pull it up to 5v ... but it seems there is nothing coming out
[13:59:04] <Mr_Mayhem> be careful use a anti-static wrist strap if its dry humidity.
[14:00:26] <Mr_Mayhem> You should be able to test it, is there anything else in the logic to block the signal? I don't know pins in hal by heart.
[14:00:30] <archivist> lbl what size resister did you use (hopes not direct 5v)
[14:00:45] <lbl> 10k
[14:00:53] <archivist> 1k
[14:01:23] <archivist> iirc they are supposed to drive 300 ohms ish
[14:01:41] <lbl> oh ... i see
[14:01:50] <lbl> i made a conservative choice i see :9
[14:01:53] <Mr_Mayhem> I was stuck on 4.7, but ok.
[14:04:42] <lbl> I'm just getting 3.7v DC ... so
[14:05:58] <archivist> time to recheck hal connections
[14:06:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Does it toggle? Or just stay there at 3.7v?
[14:06:20] <lbl> ya ... it seems I'm getting something that looks a bit like a PWM now
[14:06:40] <lbl> 50-100mV peak to peak
[14:06:49] <lbl> I'm getting something in the low range now ...
[14:06:57] <lbl> so my configuration must be borked ...
[14:09:10] <lbl> booya got a signal ... its not the most beautiful signal i have ever seen ... smiles
[14:09:50] <Mr_Mayhem> You should be able to tie to a parallel port pin that is assigned in hal and see it toggle as you click a button like machine enable, or whatever is convenient for the test. So long as everything is on the same page of music it should toggle up and down as you click away.
[14:10:50] <lbl> ya its 0 when the spindle is turned off ... and 3.7v when its turned on ... and now i think i got the configuration more or less correct ... so now i got a signal that changes when i change the speed
[14:11:41] <lbl> and now i got a very good looking 100Hz signal ... perfect
[14:11:51] <Mr_Mayhem> nice. That is the sign.
[14:11:57] <lbl> and the duty cycle is perfect ...
[14:12:10] <lbl> beauty ... hehe
[14:12:32] <lbl> now to the test wiring of the spindle ...
[14:12:45] <Mr_Mayhem> (angel song from above) Rent-a-quior arrived...
[14:13:45] <Mr_Mayhem> just don't blow up the spindle controller now.
[14:14:41] <Mr_Mayhem> Most vfds are pretty protected, but don't know what ya got.
[14:14:43] <lbl> haha i tested that first with a bus pirate ... so it works like a charm ... not sure how many volts its rated for so ...
[14:14:54] <lbl> i bought the cheapest one off ebay ...
[14:14:59] <lbl> with PWM control
[14:15:22] <lbl> so 12V from the PSU -> 12v to 80v booster -> PWM controlled speed controller
[14:16:18] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmmm.
[14:16:56] <Mr_Mayhem> What is the booster, like an switcher or more like a dc to dc converter or something? Booster?
[14:17:28] <lbl> its a 10A booster ... just a simple DC to DC coil with supports
[14:17:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Like a driver I guess.
[14:18:04] <lbl> most of the stuff is power regulators ... so its just a coil with some power regulators and caps
[14:18:16] <Mr_Mayhem> oh, ok. Well if the waveform is clean and it dosen't get too hot, I guess that's ok.
[14:18:37] <lbl> i think the only reason it costed like 14$ is the huge heatsink ... hehe
[14:19:22] <Mr_Mayhem> lol
[14:19:46] <lbl> and it delivers 95v so thats perfect ... got a 24-100v spindle ... not sure if it can hold that when it starts using current
[14:20:57] <lbl> lol huge caps .. lots of sparks :)
[14:22:47] <Mr_Mayhem> yeah, most things are 10 per pound on average. I remember an article about how a billionare hired a consulting firm to calculate the value of his factory assetts. Then asked a friend to to the same. The friend asked for the weight of the equipment in each plant, and got an answer to within 5% of the hired firm. $10.00 per pound. So cost and weight are more related than folks realize. Of course
[14:22:48] <Mr_Mayhem> leave out extreme execptions, but fairly accurate then.
[14:23:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, you will want to look for how much the rpm dips and all that.
[14:24:01] <lbl> ya once this works i need to molest the stepper board to get the signal in the controller
[14:24:24] <lbl> then i need a feedback loop to measure the rotation
[14:24:54] <Mr_Mayhem> what is the machine there?
[14:25:33] <lbl> just 3 axis 19cmx24cm
[14:25:56] <Mr_Mayhem> Chinese spindle or?
[14:26:01] <lbl> the plan was to build one when we got the software working
[14:26:12] <lbl> naa american spindle
[14:26:31] <lbl> but once this works i will steal a spindle from a power tool instead
[14:27:26] <Mr_Mayhem> I have seen one can paint white and black on the spindle shaft and use reflector/sensor to get two or four pulses per rotation.
[14:27:37] <Mr_Mayhem> For general rpm control.
[14:27:53] <lbl> ya ... I'm thinking a cheap tach meter or what they are called ...
[14:28:03] <lbl> just hack it to get the PWM or so out ...
[14:28:05] <Mr_Mayhem> Or just print it on paper and cut and tape. But keep it balanced.
[14:28:27] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, there is always that I suppose.
[14:29:17] <lbl> and of cause it does not work ... hehe
[14:30:18] <Mr_Mayhem> I had a voltage coming out on mine that follows the rpm. That worked until I put 28 volts on the lead and fried the chip. Everything else works, but my vfd now dosen't send the varying voltage anymore.
[14:30:30] <lbl> hehe
[14:31:02] <Mr_Mayhem> (no speed bar) sad.
[14:31:11] <lbl> hmm it seems like the speed controller can't handle 95v ...
[14:31:27] <lbl> i remember vaguely something about that when i ordered it a few weeks ago
[14:31:39] <lbl> but the good ones where so expensive ... hehe
[14:31:49] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe, vaugely remember... poof!
[14:32:10] <lbl> well there are some trimmers on the booster ... so
[14:32:43] <Mr_Mayhem> The water cooled chinese spindles are nice in general. Very quiet and smooth.
[14:33:10] <Mr_Mayhem> Trim it up to tweak it, yeah.
[14:33:18] * archivist moves the fire extinguisher closer
[14:33:27] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[14:33:56] <lbl> hmm ... time to check fuses :)
[14:33:59] <Mr_Mayhem> Put a variable transformer in there for first tests? I donno.
[14:34:38] <lbl> i don't have a variable transformer ... most of my stash is low voltages electronics
[14:35:13] <archivist> a 60v psu expired here the other day phut
[14:35:40] <lbl> agh ... lol there is a relay on the spindle ...
[14:35:46] <lbl> on the controller board ... lol
[14:36:10] <Mr_Mayhem> Time to check fuses...As my drill instructor used to say in a thick Jamican accent, "That's not a good sign, son"
[14:36:18] <archivist> ah one of the workshop jokes....is it switched on?
[14:37:15] <lbl> hehe ya
[14:37:31] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, did you turn it on? Poof! Yeah, however comma..
[14:37:38] <archivist> my soldering iron wouldnt work at one customers house, she unplugged the extension! when I took the back off the TV
[14:38:01] <lbl> hehe
[14:38:03] <Mr_Mayhem> Doh!
[14:38:20] <lbl> well i mostly play with electronics when I'm a bit to unsharp for code
[14:38:35] <Mr_Mayhem> Damn clueless housewives. Or the cleaning lady who spills the mop bucket in the wiring closet.
[14:39:01] <Mr_Mayhem> And dosen't tell anyone.
[14:39:04] <i_tom> that with the mop bucket must have been very nasty...
[14:39:06] <i_tom> lol
[14:39:53] <Mr_Mayhem> Like, "All the servers are dead. All of them. I can't reach them!" *&^&^*
[14:40:18] <Mr_Mayhem> Barby valley girl accent: "Oops, did I do that?"
[14:40:52] <Mr_Mayhem> (Muhroom cloud rising)
[14:41:05] <Mr_Mayhem> Oops!
[14:41:08] <i_tom> or something line "Did you do this ?" and with that mexican accent like Consuela from Family Guy - No, no, no... I no do this...
[14:41:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Ha! Needs more lemon pledge.
[14:42:00] <i_tom> Always needs more lemon pledge :)
[14:42:13] <Mr_Mayhem> "No. I clean anyway."
[14:42:28] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[14:42:35] <i_tom> "Out, out, out. No dog inside. Pero outside."
[14:42:43] <Mr_Mayhem> ha
[14:43:18] <i_tom> can't wait for my new pcbs to come and freaked out already ;]
[14:44:15] <i_tom> watched last 3 seasons of family guy on my mill lcd and was hilarious
[14:44:17] <archivist> at another job I had the server die during backups about 7pm, that was the cleaning lady and the interference off the cleaner motor getting into the scsi cable between server and disk box
[14:44:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Hehe
[14:44:59] <lbl> hmm seems like i can't stop the spindle completely ...
[14:45:01] <i_tom> archivist: wanna hear a joke ?
[14:45:06] <Mr_Mayhem> Rf spikes goes right up the power cord hehe.
[14:45:14] <i_tom> about system administration ?
[14:46:39] <i_tom> was quite popular some time ago on my current job
[14:46:47] <Mr_Mayhem> Family guy on the cnc screen, gotta love it.
[14:47:33] <i_tom> Mr_Mayhem: It's quite small, 10.1" but it was actually made for multimedia purposes so the quality was awesome
[14:47:35] <i_tom> 1080p
[14:47:36] <i_tom> ;)
[14:47:51] <Mr_Mayhem> Ha
[14:47:54] <Mr_Mayhem> I like the story of the kid wacking a telephone pole with a stick on the hillside overlooking the city, and right at the exact moment of wacking the pole, there is a city wide blackout and he thinks he did it.
[14:48:03] <i_tom> I am considering with replacing it with classic 17" 4:3 lcd
[14:48:27] <i_tom> omg! ;]
[14:49:22] <i_tom> well our IT story is a bit stupid
[14:49:34] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmm, small hd screen or classic but more readable. Got me stumped.
[14:49:39] <i_tom> well at first I liked the lcd which has 1920x1200 resolution and led backlight
[14:49:39] <i_tom> but it's really hard to read
[14:49:40] <Mr_Mayhem> So tiny, yeah.
[14:49:40] <i_tom> in any resolution above 1280x720
[14:49:58] <i_tom> so it's not very useful
[14:50:25] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe find a bigger hd. I would not want to give that up. Wouldn't a big HDTV on the cnc be bad-ass overkill?
[14:50:27] <i_tom> I have a couple of old 17" dells laying around, might unhook the matrix
[14:50:50] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[14:51:12] <Mr_Mayhem> I did sound editing on a huge new HDTV and it was so nice.
[14:52:10] <Mr_Mayhem> Stunning even. Linuxcnc would never look so good. Then get one of those screen makeovers to soup it up to look really polished.... mmmm.
[14:52:59] <Mr_Mayhem> You could monitor the machine from across the room. Overkill but pretty cool. Some day.
[14:53:41] <Mr_Mayhem> In reality, I just like it to work. But then the overkill ideas start haunting me...
[14:54:03] <lbl> to bad ... the speed controller only goes to like 60v max ... so i need to find a new one
[14:54:20] <lbl> but thanks a lot for the help ... haven't played a lot with par ports :)
[14:55:18] <i_tom> I use an HDTV for monitor since my first year at the university
[14:55:26] <i_tom> and wouldn't change it for anything
[14:55:36] <Mr_Mayhem> Hmm. Well, just look around you will find a vfd or whatever for it.
[14:55:47] <i_tom> vfd ?
[14:56:02] <Mr_Mayhem> Variable frequency drive.
[14:56:25] <Mr_Mayhem> $200.00 new for a small one.
[14:56:26] <i_tom> I mean, what about it ?
[14:56:35] <Mr_Mayhem> It drives motors.
[14:56:35] <lbl> ya ... or maybe i should just build my own with power diodes
[14:56:54] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[14:57:02] <Mr_Mayhem> That't the spirit.
[14:57:25] <i_tom> I've built my own drive. But my spindle is DC powered
[14:57:27] <lbl> but still thats a lot of mosfets ...
[14:57:55] <i_tom> actually 8 of them
[14:57:55] <Mr_Mayhem> Another power reference of neat toys, a good driving game on HDTV projector with the car seat and steering wheel, brake and clutch and surround sound. Pretty over-stimulating.
[14:58:24] <lbl> i_tom: you pwming the mosfets ?
[14:58:50] <i_tom> yeah
[14:59:05] <lbl> don't you have issues with voltages drops when it starts to draw current or ?
[14:59:37] <i_tom> in general my spindle motor is a low-voltage one
[14:59:45] <i_tom> it needs 48 volts
[14:59:52] <lbl> got a 24v-100v DC spindle
[15:00:07] <i_tom> it starts turning at little above 3 volts
[15:00:17] <lbl> basically i can just throw a mosfet from the 90v suppley and PWM it ...
[15:00:22] <i_tom> and draws around 7 amps
[15:00:34] <i_tom> 90 volts are practically nothing for the mosfets
[15:00:44] <i_tom> just make sure you cool them down properly
[15:00:49] <lbl> hehe
[15:00:52] <i_tom> and put some nice flyback diodes
[15:01:06] <lbl> i got some 50A mosfets with build in flyback diodes
[15:01:34] <lbl> so basically i can just put the PWM signal on the gate
[15:01:38] <lbl> hehe
[15:01:47] <Mr_Mayhem> Funny how motor controllers, switching supplies, and class d audio amps are all so similiar.
[15:02:00] <i_tom> lbl: that's my main idea
[15:02:30] <Mr_Mayhem> Sounds like it would work. Overkill mosfets are your friend :-)
[15:02:42] <lbl> i had that idea before i bought the speed controller ... but a friend of mine who does this stuff for a living thought it was a bad idea
[15:04:02] <Mr_Mayhem> We were talking about that last night, to vary ac use a light dimmer. But you are using dc. Maybe throw in a bridge rectifier and some caps?
[15:04:10] <Mr_Mayhem> I donno.
[15:05:03] <Mr_Mayhem> It can be noisy rfi.
[15:05:35] <Connor> what are you trying to control ?
[15:05:43] <Mr_Mayhem> dc motor he said. spindle.
[15:06:04] <Connor> PWM with a H-Bridge
[15:06:07] <Mr_Mayhem> 24v-100v DC spindle
[15:06:25] <Mr_Mayhem> I was thinking that as another alternative.
[15:08:34] <Mr_Mayhem> I thought that was for ac only though.
[15:08:45] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe not?
[15:08:45] <Connor> No. AC IN - DC out
[15:08:50] <Mr_Mayhem> Ohh
[15:08:55] <Jymmm> Max DC Watts?
[15:09:10] <Connor> depends..
[15:09:12] <Connor> they ahve lots
[15:09:51] <Connor> KBIC-125 115 VAC, thru 0.75 HP, 1.5 HP with heatsink, 90 VDC ARM
[15:10:31] <Connor> 12 amps
[15:11:21] <Connor> I use KBCC-125R 115 VAC, thru 1.5 HP, 90 VDC ARM 16.0 amps
[15:11:30] <Connor> it has a reversing module on it..
[15:11:41] <Jymmm> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__16893__Hobby_King_80A_ESC_4A_SBEC.html
[15:12:24] <Connor> That's DC to DC, Brushless..
[15:12:34] <Connor> what sort of motor we talking besides DC?
[15:12:59] <Jymmm> I just heard DC motor control is all
[15:13:23] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.mesanet.com/ look at top motion control card. Not too expensive- that mesa stuff. H bridge with current feedback, to do torque adjustment.
[15:13:29] <Connor> Yea.. well.. I gave options for a Brushed DC or universal motor.
[15:14:16] <Connor> the KB's are what major industry use.. SCR based Speed controller.. combine that with a PWM to +-10v board and you have yourself a nice little unit.
[15:14:19] <Connor> mine works great.
[15:14:34] <Connor> after adding the encoder to the motor I can even do rigid taping with it.
[15:14:48] <Connor> reverse is 1 to 2 seconds.. but, doesn't matter.
[15:15:31] <Jymmm> Brushed controller http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__6468__Turnigy_30A_BRUSHED_ESC.html I'm sure if you search their sight you might find something to play with
[15:15:45] <Mr_Mayhem> That 3c20 h bridge Mesa card is like $80.00. Don't know what else ya need to talk to it.
[15:16:36] <Connor> Jymmm: To low voltage..
[15:16:42] <Connor> only 2 or 3 Lipo.
[15:17:19] <Mr_Mayhem> oh, yeah 50 volts max on the mesa 3c20 but you need 90? Hmm.
[15:17:48] <Connor> like I said.. the KBIC-125 or KBCC-125R
[15:18:48] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, looks like its made for that role.
[15:18:51] <Connor> and they'll do more than 90v.. I think I've had mine up to almost full 120v.
[15:19:13] <Connor> but.. motor isn't rated for continuous duty @ 120v..
[15:19:24] <Connor> I use a Treadmill motor.
[15:19:45] <Connor> tops out around 6800 RPM. 1:1 belt drive.
[15:20:09] <Connor> I do think I need to adjust the torque pot higher though.
[15:21:02] <Mr_Mayhem> What is your machine Connor?
[15:21:11] <Connor> G0704
[15:21:38] <Mr_Mayhem> Nice. Is the conversion hard to do? I was looking at it some.
[15:21:59] <Connor> Not to bad.. I had Zero metal milling exp and I did it.
[15:22:09] <Connor> Not done ball screws yet. but.. that'll come..
[15:22:29] <Mr_Mayhem> Not bad at all sounding.
[15:22:30] <Connor> But, I made the motor mounts on the machine manually..
[15:23:04] <Connor> used a boring head.. standoffs made in lathe.
[15:23:23] <Mr_Mayhem> What was the reason for changing to a treadmill motor, more torque or something?
[15:24:06] <Connor> higher speed.. more HP. Old motor was 600W clammed to be 750W. Max RPM was 2500-3000RPM.
[15:24:39] <Connor> I wanted faster for Alum work.. more HP, and ability to do rigid tapping.
[15:24:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so you put in the treadmill motor and now can do faster work.
[15:25:31] <Mr_Mayhem> How is the rpm tied to the thread cut on that kind of rigid tapping?
[15:25:51] <Mr_Mayhem> Does it simply use an encoder feedback?
[15:26:35] <cradek> yes but position is followed, not speed (rpm)
[15:26:39] <Connor> I have a Quadrature Encoder. Direct on the rear shaft of the motor.. and since it's a 1:1 belt drive.. it works just find.
[15:27:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so position is regulated and spindle just does its thing, but big enough not to slow down too much with torque correction applied.
[15:27:26] <Connor> err.. just fine.. not find.
[15:27:42] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[15:27:57] <cradek> yes, the spindle is free-running and the axis position follows it, including during the reversal
[15:28:05] <Connor> I'm not sure what the right RPM is for tapping.. I think the max I probably could do is 1/4-20
[15:28:33] <Connor> and when I did it.. I was running the RPM pretty fast.. like 1500 RPM
[15:28:43] <cradek> I use <500
[15:28:46] <Connor> With wrong type of tap.
[15:29:02] <Connor> I got a new one.. Spiral Flute that should fix that issue.. and plan on using coolant.
[15:29:17] <Connor> so, probably can run it slower now.. and need to adjust the torque pot higher on the speed controller
[15:29:35] <Mr_Mayhem> I heard many opposing views on how much encoder resolution is enough for rigid tapping to be ok.
[15:30:13] <Mr_Mayhem> I guess it depends on other factors like how much the motor slops around, etc.
[15:30:22] <Connor> I have mine rather low because I'm using parport with PC.. not fast enough for the 6800 RPM
[15:30:49] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so you don't want to round off the square encoder pulses or worse.
[15:31:25] <Connor> well.. I have to run the count lower. if I have it too high, the machine will miss ticks.
[15:31:35] <Connor> I use it for RPM feedback too..
[15:32:02] <Mr_Mayhem> Same thing, yeah. The speed limit of the parallel port, I see.
[15:32:07] <Connor> if just for taping, then I could use higher count, because you tap at slow speed.. but.. I wanted both.. If I get a MESA card, I'll up the count.
[15:32:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Right.
[15:32:47] <Connor> I'm using a capacitance based encoder.. which has deep switches.. lets me change the encoder count.
[15:33:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so you can add more resolution?
[15:33:38] <Mr_Mayhem> More pulses per turn?
[15:33:41] <Connor> AMT103 encoder.
[15:33:59] <Connor> 48 to 2048 PPR
[15:34:10] <Connor> in steps of 8 or 10
[15:34:23] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AMT103-V%20KIT/102-1308-ND/827016 ok
[15:34:27] <Connor> http://www.cncdrive.com/downloads/AMT103_datasheet.pdf
[15:34:39] <Connor> yup, that's the one.
[15:35:27] <Connor> I'm running at 48, with index.
[15:35:39] <Connor> index is required
[15:35:48] <Connor> for rigid tapping.
[15:36:02] <Mr_Mayhem> I like the ring adapters for different shaft diameters. Where does the encoder get installed exactly?
[15:36:15] <Mr_Mayhem> On the motor shaft?
[15:36:22] <Connor> depends on the motor and setup..
[15:36:29] <Connor> if your running 1:1 yea..on the motor is fine..
[15:36:36] <Connor> but it has to be 1:1 with the spindle.
[15:36:54] <Connor> or you have to have a separate index on the spindle.
[15:37:16] <Mr_Mayhem> Ok. So on the spindle shaft when gearing down unless you want to do the math or more complicated maybe.
[15:37:34] <Mr_Mayhem> Belt slide bad I see.
[15:37:40] <Connor> can't use math..
[15:37:50] <Connor> You HAVE to have a index on the spindle.
[15:38:17] <Connor> so, if gearing down.. you can put encoder on motor shave.. and use a separate index.
[15:38:45] <Connor> So, if your 3:1 you get triple the resolution, and still only 1 index.
[15:39:36] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, ok. The index is one spot in the rotation.
[15:39:48] <Connor> Yup.
[15:40:23] <CaptHindsight> gadzooks a high of -11F (-24F) low of -26C, I'm going on vacation.....
[15:40:24] <Mr_Mayhem> I have never seen that done before. I will have to glance at some videos for rigid tapping, etc.
[15:41:30] <Mr_Mayhem> Cold. Where on Earth are ya? Not bad here in Vegas
[15:41:48] <Mr_Mayhem> Not that cold at least.
[15:42:38] <Mr_Mayhem> I wonder how the hal handles the index in combination with the encoder. That's over my head at this point.
[15:42:56] <Mr_Mayhem> Because now there are two feedbacks to chew on.
[15:43:22] <Connor> you drop the index from the main encoder.. and just use the external index.. the hal just sees it as 1 large encoder..
[15:43:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Ahhh! Very nice.
[15:44:03] <Connor> so, if your running 2048 count and are 3:1 you would have a 6144 PPR encoder
[15:44:27] <Mr_Mayhem> So, that means that the index is treated seperately in all of this so you can simply swap one for the other.
[15:45:33] <Connor> yup. Now, I've seen some systems.. where they're running 2:1 and the spindle has to be oriented correctly for the power draw bar.. They have a 180 out sensor on them.. which isn't going to work for a index..
[15:45:34] <Mr_Mayhem> I understand, due to the ratio, you increase the resoluton.
[15:46:06] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so what, two index pulses on the rotation circle then?
[15:46:12] <Mr_Mayhem> In that case?
[15:46:16] <Connor> so, what you do.. is mask the index on the spindle encoder.. so that when the 180 sensor is active the index has to be active too for it to count.
[15:47:03] <Connor> and of course, orientate the spindle so that the index is in the middle of the 180 out sensor..
[15:47:39] <Connor> Bot those are on much large machines..
[15:48:33] <Mr_Mayhem> Is this "mask" done in hal or do you mean some outside logic?
[15:49:05] <Mr_Mayhem> I am almost understanding. Which is not yet understanding, but zeroing in.
[15:50:16] <Connor> Depends.. I think their is a way to do it with the mesa board.. but.. you could use a optocoupler to do it.. power leg of optocopler is 5v index pulse, the 180 out sensor (which is 24v) on the input side of the opto. when both are high.. it sends out a high.
[15:51:59] <Mr_Mayhem> I get so far there is an alignment between the encoder on one hand and an index on the other. And 180 flavor is different, and needs a logic to do something to make it behave as intended.
[15:53:11] <Mr_Mayhem> So, the 180 sensor blocks half of the rotation essentially?
[15:53:31] <Connor> the 180 out sensor is high for half the revolution of the spindle. which doesn't work for a index.. because, you end up with 2 pulses, the leading, and the trailing edge.. and they're too far apart to use as index.
[15:53:32] <Mr_Mayhem> So it comes to the correct side of the 180 to index?
[15:53:57] <Mr_Mayhem> oh, wide pulse on thing.
[15:54:02] <Connor> so, you use the 180 to mask.. IE. block the index on that half.
[15:54:04] <Mr_Mayhem> So too wide to use
[15:54:21] <Mr_Mayhem> Got it.
[15:54:52] <Mr_Mayhem> So no pulses come out of the encoder line when on the "wrong" side of rotation of the spindle.
[15:55:19] <Mr_Mayhem> So I guess it kicks back in on the "correct" 180 side.
[15:55:23] <Connor> now, what I don't know.. is how exact you have to be on getting the index and the middle of the 180 out.. I keep thnking in my mind that if your off any at all, you'll end up slowly moving the index one way or the other each revolutionm
[15:55:41] <Connor> exactly.
[15:56:19] <i_tom> "No, I clean now." "Consuela, NO!" "I clean anyway."
[15:56:22] <i_tom> LoL
[15:56:25] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[15:56:28] <Mr_Mayhem> Nooooo!
[15:57:23] <Mr_Mayhem> Sounds like one would have to count pulses from the encoder, or have another index pulse? Centering wobble alogrythm? hmm.
[15:57:56] <Mr_Mayhem> To find the center of the remaining 180 side.
[15:58:28] <Connor> I dunno.
[15:58:31] <i_tom> are all of the phases of the encoder counting and interpolating correctly sin and cos ?
[15:58:31] <Mr_Mayhem> Sounds like the "find center of circle" probe thing, but in a spindle context with encoder.
[15:59:30] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, one could use the first pulse and cos() off that.
[15:59:53] <Mr_Mayhem> cosine is 90 degrees from original, right?
[16:00:07] <i_tom> in general yeah
[16:00:12] <i_tom> and the other phase is sinusoidal
[16:00:27] <Connor> probably just easier to add a external index and be done with it.
[16:00:28] <i_tom> or sinus (don't know how to spell it in english sorry)
[16:00:37] <toastwork> what's the problem?
[16:00:52] <i_tom> probably, but when I messed up sin and cos with the pulses
[16:01:00] <i_tom> in one direction i received opposite signal
[16:01:07] <i_tom> and in the other - just rubbish
[16:01:45] <toastwork> why are you trying to find the exact position of the index?
[16:02:22] <NickParker> PCW: will you have some time today to help me sort out my ISE so I can program my 6i25?
[16:02:40] <Connor> talking theory.. on a machine that has a 180 out sensor instead of index on the spindle.. encoder on motor shaft.. how to mix the 2 signals
[16:02:45] <Mr_Mayhem> Wondering how the spindle gets aligined to be centered within the correct 180 half of rotation, using encoder. For big machines that need it? Working on theory here.
[16:03:05] <Connor> and I'm wondering if you need to be concerned with the index location relative to the center of the 180 out sensor black out area
[16:03:18] <toastwork> big machines have a spindle lock so the 180 out is relatively inaccurate
[16:03:21] <i_tom> so what is the problem with the spindle encoder ?
[16:03:39] <toastwork> I wouldn't want to use one of those for a index of any sort
[16:03:56] <toastwork> as long as the spindle lock slams down on the right half of the thing, it'll orient it properly
[16:03:57] <i_tom> big machine is a relative term
[16:04:02] <PCW> NickParker: later today
[16:04:13] <NickParker> sounds good. ping me in here when you're available
[16:04:20] <Connor> mounted on shaft of motor.. 2:1
[16:04:20] <Connor> so, the 180 out acts as a "mask" blocking the index on the encoder for 1/2 the spindle rotation
[16:04:21] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe that is the answer. Just use index there.
[16:04:25] <i_tom> all of our machines have spindle lock and it's actually not possible to locate the spindle in any way you want it precisely
[16:04:38] <PCW> its not good for index but probably OK for index mask
[16:04:53] <toastwork> i_tom: this is for machines that have a tool changer that cares about orientation
[16:05:18] <Connor> toastwork: In this case, no spindle lock.. Cincinnati Arrow 500
[16:05:20] <PCW> (adjust index position for middle of light or dark)
[16:05:36] <Mr_Mayhem> Simple is good I guess.
[16:05:55] <toastwork> Connor: can't you use the rising edge as an index?
[16:06:15] <Connor> using it as a mask is fine.. I was just concerned that the index and mask might go out of phase if the index isn't exactly center on the 180 out sensor.
[16:06:16] <toastwork> if the sensor is accurate enough to locate the tool for a toolchange, it's not going to be that wobbly
[16:06:32] <i_tom> got it, ours are used just for rotating tools and the spindle circular position isn't essential
[16:07:23] <i_tom> It's been nice talking to you, gentlemen. Have a successful day!
[16:07:38] <Mr_Mayhem> You too i_tom
[16:07:43] <Connor> i_tom
[16:07:50] <Connor> you see my comments about the speed controller ?
[16:07:55] <Connor> and what to use ?
[16:08:49] <toastwork> why can't you use the rising edge of the mask
[16:08:54] <toastwork> or am i totally high here
[16:09:13] <toastwork> if it's accurate enough for a machine with no spindle lock, it should be fairly consistent
[16:10:46] <Connor> Grizzly G0704
[16:10:53] <Connor> Doh
[16:27:00] <Deejay> gn8
[16:48:16] <syyl> anybody here runs one of those chinese 3020 cnc routers from ebay?
[16:54:02] <heathmanc> I have a mesa 5i20 and 7i48, anybody know if I can control my hitachi wj200 vfd with this combo?
[17:01:05] <PCW> does the wj200 have analog speed control?
[17:01:31] <heathmanc> yes
[17:01:43] <heathmanc> I am assuming it should work
[17:03:23] <heathmanc> i guess my big problem is though, that I am moving to two 7i29 and a 4i69 and a 7137ta, not sure how to set it up with that hardware
[17:03:44] <heathmanc> if the 7i29 are ever back in stock
[17:06:13] <PCW> should be a standard config (SV12 or SVST4_8 etc)
[17:07:19] <heathmanc> ok, but where do i get the spindle control with the 7i29 and 7i37ta
[17:07:40] <heathmanc> seems like i would need a breakout board of sorts to get to a pwm signal
[17:07:55] <heathmanc> and maybe a SPINx1
[17:08:26] <PCW> that would do (on the unused connector)
[17:09:14] <heathmanc> ok, now i see mention of two 7i29 on one cable, how is that cable split? or are the boards stackable?
[17:11:37] <PCW> cable has 3 connectors: 4i69, 7i29#1 7I29#2
[17:13:10] <heathmanc> ok, I can't find that cable online, just the standard aio
[17:14:01] <PCW> Not common enough but you can order one
[17:14:23] <heathmanc> as well as a 50 pin breakout board?
[17:15:57] <PCW> We dont have a plain breakout but they are available from other sources
[17:16:15] <PCW> (you can use a 7I42TA)
[17:17:18] <heathmanc> lol, out of stock also
[17:21:58] <heathmanc> So, all of this will play nicely together 4i69 2x7i29 7i42TA SPINx1
[17:24:00] <heathmanc> and the 7i37COM
[17:31:42] <heathmanc> Hey PCW, will that 4i69 work on a pci-104 single board computer?
[17:32:21] <heathmanc> I have an advantech intel core 2 duo 2.26 that i want to use it on
[17:32:41] <heathmanc> but it has just the pci-104 connector
[17:32:50] <heathmanc> no ISA bus
[17:33:24] <PCW> Yes its PCI only
[17:34:22] <heathmanc> so the card will work fine, should have found this all out before i ordered it a couple days ago
[17:35:39] <heathmanc> trying to move from a 5i20 and 7i48 driving some allen bradley drives, to an h-bridge setup
[17:36:06] <heathmanc> all of this is way overkill, it's on a taig mill
[17:36:16] <heathmanc> I am stationed overseas and don't have a lot of room
[17:47:55] <heathmanc> right now i get an error in dmesg about muxed encoders and V2 and velocity computations being incorrect
[17:49:10] <PCW> That means you need newer 5i20 firmware
[17:49:44] <heathmanc> i used the package manager, pretty sure .8 is installed
[17:49:59] <heathmanc> any light shed would be great
[17:51:25] <PCW> I would download 5i20.zip from mesa and use svst6_6_7i48.bit
[17:52:03] <PCW> (7I48 on P2)
[17:52:26] <heathmanc> ok, which folder does that bit file go in?
[17:52:43] <heathmanc> i already downloaded it a while back from mesa, but selected the sv12 i believe
[17:58:33] <Jymmm> THIS IS AWESOME HAHAHAHAHAHAHA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut5DXxK1dvk
[17:59:06] <PCW> SV12 (unless it has a 7I48 in its name) is likely wrong
[18:03:37] <heathmanc> just like that, problem fixed
[18:09:14] <Jymmm> Come on, you gotta love 154,000 Watts going thru a knife like that =)
[18:09:29] <heathmanc> that was hilarious to watch
[18:10:48] <Jymmm> Yeah, no bullshit effects, that was the real deal... on carpet, upstairs, no gloves/goggles, and uses a pair of scissors for pliers because it got too hot!!!
[18:11:10] <Jymmm> I'd buy him a beer or 20!!!
[18:12:31] <heathmanc> lol
[18:16:50] <heathmanc> would I use the same firmware for the 4i69?
[18:17:06] <heathmanc> i only see one 4i69 firmware in the package
[18:21:27] <heathmanc> or will that firmware work with 2x 7i29
[18:22:18] <PCW> No you need specific 4I69 firmware (he 4i69 has mainly been used by people using their own firmware)
[18:22:38] <heathmanc> sounds like i'm in for an adventure
[18:23:36] <PCW> not really its just theres not a whole lot of pre-built firmware available for the 4I69
[18:23:56] <heathmanc> to me, the 4i69 and a single board computer sound like the ultimate setup
[18:24:00] <heathmanc> rugged, compact
[18:24:07] <heathmanc> surprised there aren't a lot out there doing it
[18:24:40] <PCW> I think the 4I65 is more common for this (older/better supported by linuxcnc)
[18:24:57] <heathmanc> lol, maybe i should have ordered that
[18:25:06] <heathmanc> assuming it's too late now
[18:32:18] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/4i69_16_sv12.bit is a bitfile suitable for a 4i69-16 and 7I29s
[18:32:35] <PCW> its not a big deal to make bitfiles
[18:33:55] <heathmanc> awsome, I ordered the -25 though, would it be possible to get one for the 7i48 on the 4i69-25 also, can't order the 7i29 as it's not in stock
[18:37:56] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/4i69_16_sv12.bit
[18:38:15] <PCW> sorry freeby.mesanet.com/4i69_25_sv12.bit
[18:39:04] <JT-Shop> http://www.lolbrary.com/content/686/epic-mousetrap-61686.gif
[18:39:40] <heathmanc> hopefully those were the same files, since I accidentally overwrote the first one with this one
[18:42:14] <PCW> the -16 and -25 files are not compatible if thats what you mean
[18:43:05] <heathmanc> sorry, wasn't paying attention to the second link
[18:44:39] <heathmanc> so that one is good for the 7i29s
[18:48:50] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/4i69_25_svst6_6.bit
[18:48:51] <PCW> (for 7I48)
[18:49:55] <heathmanc> awesome, I greatly appreciate it
[18:50:41] <PCW> NP
[18:50:55] <Mr_Mayhem> MESA Rules!
[18:50:58] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe
[18:51:11] <Mr_Mayhem> But really, I do like mine.
[18:51:31] <heathmanc> any idea when the 7i29 might be in stock and the 7i42ta
[18:51:48] <PCW> I'll ask
[18:56:30] <uw> (spins around in chair)
[18:56:50] <uw> when can we expect 7i29 stock
[18:56:57] <heathmanc> lol
[18:57:02] <heathmanc> I'm not the only one I see
[19:02:31] <PCW> 7I29s next week
[19:03:22] <heathmanc> i will keep pinging the website for them then
[19:13:34] <NickParker|2> PCW: could using the wrong work.@card@,all be causeing my issues?
[19:13:46] <NickParker> i'm on work.i25_x9card.all for a 6i25
[19:14:31] <NickParker> and i notice work.sixi25_x9card.all is an option
[19:18:10] <NickParker> and my "issues" are that my compiled bit files keep the pc from booting unless i use a pencil to short the eeprom chip
[19:19:49] <Tom_itx> when i built mine i commented that out and used the specific card
[19:20:01] <Tom_itx> btw did you notice my how to on making bit files?
[19:20:27] <NickParker> Tom_itx: no i did not. last time i was in here you were starting it. link please?
[19:20:50] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx14_install_index.php
[19:36:28] <NickParker> Tom_itx: so is the work.@CARD@.all field talking about what daughter card I'm using, or what anythingIO FPGA card I'm using?
[19:37:41] <PCW> the card selected is not likely to cause a problem
[19:37:43] <PCW> If you bit files are bad download the current source, build a _standard_ bitfile
[19:37:45] <PCW> using the fivei25.xise project file and modify (carefullY) from there
[19:38:56] <NickParker> I've just restarted from source. So if I'm wiring everything up through a breadboard, what should I put in @CARD@?
[19:39:46] <PCW> the card is for the FPGA card (independent of daughtercards)
[19:40:58] <Tom_itx> the @PIN@ is more for the daughter cards isn't it?
[19:41:23] <NickParker> Tom_itx: yes, that's what i thought.
[19:41:31] <PCW> Yes that determines the I/O pinout (and modules included)
[19:41:33] <Tom_itx> the @CARD@ sets up the parameters for the main card
[19:41:41] <NickParker> alright well I'm going to go with work.sixi25_x9card.all for the @card@ slot for now
[19:44:27] <PCW> either 5i25 or 6i25 card types will do
[19:48:22] <NickParker> what's a good PIN file to start from for 6i25? My old one seems to have some issues so i'm starting that part fresh as well.
[19:49:22] <PCW> what issues?
[19:49:48] <NickParker> I've added it to the library but i still get the error "Cannot find <pin_new1> in library <work>. Please ensure that the library was compiled, and that a library and a use clause are present in the VHDL file."
[19:50:39] <NickParker> so i'm guessing I've done something to its use clause
[19:51:41] <NickParker> wait
[19:51:47] <NickParker> end package name hadn't been changed
[19:52:52] <NickParker> .....and I dropped an S in the name for the use work.PIN[S]_NEW1.all; line
[19:52:59] <Tom_itx> PCW do you try to synthesize the files for size when you can over speed?
[19:53:15] <Tom_itx> referring to the 'speed' bug we uncovered...
[19:59:09] <PCW> I normally compile for speed (area is risky)
[20:00:45] <somenewguy> can ngcgui always safely accept equations as input?
[20:01:38] <PCW> NickParker: make sure you use the fivei25 project file,
[20:01:40] <PCW> if not the bitfile generation options will make unusable bitfiles
[20:02:34] <Tom_itx> are there FPGA size options on it also like there is on the 7i43?
[20:02:56] <NickParker> PCW: I had been using hm2epp.xise. Switched now
[20:03:15] <Tom_itx> that's for parallel port
[20:03:20] <PCW> umm thats guaranteed to fail
[20:04:25] <NickParker> Tom_itx: The page you posted just said to use it. Could you add that that's for parallel port?
[20:04:43] <Tom_itx> i used my setup as the example
[20:04:56] <Tom_itx> i thought i mentioned that
[20:05:30] <NickParker> oh yeah you did. you said "in this example i will be using the hostmot2 EPPHM2 firmware"
[20:05:52] <NickParker> sorry, didn't put two and two together over here that I might need a different project file.
[20:08:21] <PCW> you need
[20:08:22] <PCW> the right project file
[20:08:24] <PCW> the right FPGA chip selected
[20:08:25] <PCW> the right ucf file assosciated with the top vhdl file
[20:08:27] <PCW> otherwise you will get
[20:08:28] <PCW> bit hash/mish mash
[20:08:44] <Tom_itx> i'll add something to that effect
[20:08:46] <Tom_itx> to the page
[20:09:16] <Tom_itx> if i knew more about the specifics i would add to it
[20:09:29] <NickParker> alright I just compiled one without any errors. I've got some warnings though: http://pastebin.com/5XeaTjdA
[20:09:35] <NickParker> a lot of warnings I should say...
[20:09:44] <Tom_itx> yep
[20:09:56] <Tom_itx> you can ignore most of them i think
[20:10:04] <NickParker> what about this 9k BRAM error?
[20:10:17] <NickParker> I've *always* had it, everything I tried to compile with the ISE
[20:10:19] <Tom_itx> that's above my pay grade
[20:10:39] <PCW> meaningless
[20:10:55] <NickParker> cool. Well time to grab a pencil, boot my pc and see if this one works
[20:11:07] <PCW> the ones I like are the case statement is complete warnings
[20:12:23] <Tom_itx> PCW, ^^ what about the ucf file?
[20:12:29] <Tom_itx> i didn't do anything there
[20:12:33] <Tom_itx> that i'm aware of
[20:13:14] <PCW> you just need to make sure the right one is assosciated (the card specific project files do that for you)
[20:15:05] <Tom_itx> the project file is the .xise file right?
[20:16:18] <PCW> Yes sir
[20:16:25] <Tom_itx> PCW, do all the project files start with TopEPPHostMot2 as the top file where you select the board and daughter options?
[20:17:07] <Tom_itx> i suppose they wouldn't be EPP though
[20:17:17] <PCW> Top something
[20:17:28] <Tom_itx> so would it be fair to say TopXXXHostMot2 file?
[20:17:55] <PCW> epp,epps,spi,usb,ether,serial.pci etc
[20:19:50] <PCW> dir top*.vhd
[20:23:06] <Tom_itx> PCW, read the paragraph before the first .jpg and see if it makes sense: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx14_install_index.php
[20:25:53] <PCW> yes though the Top XXXX names are longer
[20:26:08] <Tom_itx> they should get the idea
[20:29:17] <PCW> Top9054HostMot2.vhd 5I21,5I22,5I23,3X20, 4i68, 4I69
[20:29:19] <PCW> TopEPPHostMot2.vhd 7I43, 7I61 EPP
[20:29:20] <PCW> TopEPPSHostMot2.vhd 7I90 EPP
[20:29:22] <PCW> TopPCIHostMot2.vhd 5I24, 5I25, 6i25, 4I74
[20:29:24] <PCW> TopUSBHostMot2.vhd 7I32, 7I61 USB
[20:29:26] <PCW> TopEthernet16HostMot2.vhd 7I80, 7I76E, 7I77E
[20:29:27] <PCW> Top9030HostMot2.vhd 5I20, 4i65
[20:29:29] <PCW> TopGCSPIHostMot2.vhd 7I90 SPI
[20:29:31] <PCW> TopSerial16HostMot2.vhd 7I90 serial
[20:29:48] <Tom_L> i could list those i guess
[20:30:02] <PCW> TopUSBHostMot2.vhd 7I43, 7I61 USB
[20:30:27] <PCW> TopGCSPIHostMot2.vhd 7I90,7I91 SPI
[20:34:49] <Tom_L> any more?
[20:34:57] <Tom_L> i added those to the page
[20:37:09] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/131080611452 anyone used the newer TB6600HG Stepper Motor Drivers?
[20:42:06] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/cnc-router-rotational-axis-the-4th-axis-2 $500 and no specs on tolerance or accuracy
[20:43:30] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/cnc-router-rotational-axis-the-4th-axis
[20:43:59] <CaptHindsight> 3A NEMA23 1.8 Degree Stepper Motor Centric Rotational tolerance: ~0.1mm Pulley Belt: 17 teeth to 128 teeth
[20:44:22] <CaptHindsight> good for engraving wood?
[20:49:06] <toastydeath> this doesn't help you but I'm curious what "centric rotational tolerance" refers to
[20:49:15] <toastydeath> is it synchronous bearing error or shaft runout
[20:53:17] <CaptHindsight> the guy that runs automationtechnologiesinc has a PhD in ME
[20:53:32] <CaptHindsight> but your guess is as good as mine :)
[20:53:45] <eric_unterhausen> some bastardized mixing of the two, no doubt
[20:54:32] <eric_unterhausen> TIR would be a nice thing to have though
[20:55:00] <eric_unterhausen> that's probably what it is, he's not doing spindle metrology
[21:00:29] <toastydeath> sadness.
[21:01:17] <eric_unterhausen> send it to me, I will run unterhausen-soft on it and give you just about everything
[21:01:22] <eric_unterhausen> no reversals though
[21:02:06] <eric_unterhausen> 'cause somehow I doubt that bearing will show up a 25nm test ball
[21:03:56] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/cnc-mogul-machine more new stuff from Keling
[21:04:36] <CaptHindsight> cutting Area: 36" x 36" $1000 cutting Area: 48" x 96" $1255
[21:04:58] <CaptHindsight> looks like makerslide
[21:07:06] <eric_unterhausen> I think if I was going to spend that kind of money, I'd start thinking about linear rails from alibaba
[21:07:58] <eric_unterhausen> the makerslide wheels on my shapeoko are square, thump, thump, thump
[21:08:43] <eric_unterhausen> the people that have gone with metal wheels have significant wear on the extrusions
[21:09:09] <CaptHindsight> after trying to work on providing instructions for some open source machines I discovered that most people want a set of instructions down to exact part numbers and cut here, bend here, slot 1 with tab B instructions vs theory and really good suggestions
[21:11:36] <eric_unterhausen> well, you have to admit that a BOM saves a lot of time
[21:12:24] <eric_unterhausen> maybe it's for the wrong reasons, but I have a lot better completion rate on projects that are well-defined
[21:14:47] <CaptHindsight> thats why I can see that Mogul thing being popular
[21:17:53] <CaptHindsight> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-router/kl-1218-stone-machine
[21:18:20] <CaptHindsight> "We Changed this Machine to Mach3 Controlled System" I wonder what it used to come with?
[21:19:04] <eric_unterhausen> probably some proprietary closed-source non-working Chinese program
[21:19:46] <eric_unterhausen> I was looking at spindles on ebay last night and found a batch of solid looking routers for less than $1000
[21:19:49] <jdh> it doesn't even come with mach3
[21:20:04] <jdh> what solid looking routers?
[21:22:04] <toastydeath> I still want someone to scrape in an aluminum extrusion and use an air bearing
[21:22:14] <toastydeath> I think that's probably the cheapest and most accurate way to build anything hobby
[21:22:18] <eric_unterhausen> drew would do it
[21:22:21] <toastydeath> no speed restrictions
[21:22:29] <toastydeath> accuracy limited by patience
[21:22:42] <toastydeath> and as cheap as you can source the aluminum
[21:23:17] <CaptHindsight> http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/mat/4247171655.html 5052 Aluminum Sheets .25" x 5'x 10' - $250
[21:23:29] <CaptHindsight> thats about 1/2 price
[21:23:43] <CaptHindsight> unless you buy in really high quan
[21:24:38] <eric_unterhausen> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROFESSIONAL-3040Z-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-DRILLING-MILLING-MACHINE-p6-/370569081937?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5647a37451
[21:26:09] <eric_unterhausen> not advocating for it, just looked pretty solid for the price
[21:26:30] <CaptHindsight> you could mount a PLA extruder on that
[21:28:10] <jdh> 121165762354
[21:28:21] <eric_unterhausen> exactly
[21:29:15] <jdh> I'd like one of those without electronics/motors
[21:29:50] <CaptHindsight> same price and the spindless router from automationtech
[21:30:01] <CaptHindsight> and/as
[21:30:19] <eric_unterhausen> the 1.5kw spindles seem to be ok
[21:32:24] <CaptHindsight> I rarely see them without controls and motors
[21:32:42] <CaptHindsight> unless they are leftovers
[21:33:34] <CaptHindsight> 370770474504
[21:34:52] <CaptHindsight> I'd grab that if I had time to drive there
[21:36:47] <eric_unterhausen> I'd like to see that in action
[21:37:45] <CaptHindsight> the controller looks like it's from a 70's scifi
[21:40:08] <PCW> I dig those lights
[21:41:12] <NickParker> Hi all, back from dinner. PCW: I can't seem to recover my 6i25 yet. sudo ./mesaflash --device 6i25 --recover --write fallback.bit works, i can see sectors erase and get written and it says configuration updated successfully
[21:41:35] <PCW> did you cycle the PC power?
[21:41:39] <NickParker> but after that sudo ./mesaflash --scanpci doesn't see anything and --device 5i25 and --device 6i25 both say device not found
[21:41:46] <NickParker> yes, but it still needs the pencil to boot.
[21:42:01] <PCW> well then the bitfile is not right
[21:42:21] <NickParker> I can't imagine how i would have mucked up fallback.bit, but I'll grab a fresh one and try it
[21:43:56] <PCW> download the source/ select fivei25.xise project/build a standard bitfile (the supplied pins files) and try that
[21:44:26] <NickParker> ok will do after i reboot with my freshly downloaded fallback.bit
[21:45:05] <PCW> or better still just program with one of the supplied bit files
[21:46:00] <NickParker> booted with the supplied fallback.bit
[21:48:29] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hurco-KMB-I-CNC-Mill-Used-AM12099-/121238145729?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3a5b4ac1
[21:48:40] <CaptHindsight> $1,950.00
[21:48:42] <NickParker> my pc was probably just trying to boot from usb before...
[21:50:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/121231910617 Mitutojo CMM X slide aprox 7' travel, 5500 pounds
[21:53:05] <eric_unterhausen> that must have been a really crappy cmm
[21:56:18] <toastydeath> wtf cmm has linear rails
[21:56:34] <toastydeath> that just looks like a random lathe z axis
[21:56:59] <eric_unterhausen> I don't think the discount cmm company has the guts to go with rolling element rails
[21:57:20] <toastydeath> "Valu CMM"
[21:57:24] <toastydeath> "Your one stop shop"
[21:57:35] <Tom_itx> i thought they ran on air bearings
[21:57:38] <eric_unterhausen> know your dimensions with .001" accuracy
[21:57:44] <toastydeath> they do, that's why we're incredulous
[21:57:59] <toastydeath> cuz that shit LOOKS like it's got some linear bearings slapped on a casting
[21:58:00] <Tom_itx> the one we had would just float
[21:58:24] <toastydeath> Air bearings are extraordinarily tolerant of surface variations
[21:58:42] <toastydeath> linear bearings, not so much
[21:59:58] <toastydeath> which means you can scrape an air bearing in and it has no problems whatsoever
[22:00:29] <toastydeath> vs being forced to grind and lap something
[22:00:52] <eric_unterhausen> I went to Ziess last fall
[22:01:20] <toastydeath> how was it?
[22:01:35] <eric_unterhausen> it was interesting, wish I could have learned more
[22:02:37] <eric_unterhausen> they didn't hide anything from us
[22:02:55] <toastydeath> damn
[22:03:14] <eric_unterhausen> main thing I learned was that you shouldn't buy a better machine than you need
[22:03:34] <Tom_itx> why not?
[22:03:42] <eric_unterhausen> because they don't spec their machines at their limits
[22:09:42] <archivist> in the electronics world, one makes a measuring device an order of magnitude better that the uncertainty you wish to measure too
[22:10:48] <toastydeath> depends on what you're doing, often the machine is beyond the limit of one's ability to measure in the world of companies like Moore, Zeiss, precitech, etc
[22:11:27] <Mr_Mayhem> great slogan. "Beyond the Limits" hehe
[22:11:31] <eric_unterhausen> gotta get better than zygo
[22:11:44] <toastydeath> I once made a calibration thing for zygo
[22:11:51] <toastydeath> I was fucking shocked it worked
[22:12:04] <toastydeath> the most halfassed bullshit ever
[22:12:16] <toastydeath> but i guess if it works, it's not stupid, or something like that.
[22:12:40] <eric_unterhausen> reminds me, I gotta upgrade the computer on my zygo
[22:13:07] <eric_unterhausen> too bad I don't have 80k, the new machines are really nice
[22:13:13] <eric_unterhausen> same specs though
[22:14:47] <toastydeath> oh, there was another thing we did at New Way that wound up being cool but nothing ever came of it
[22:14:58] <toastydeath> (speaking of scraping aluminum for air bearings on hobby machines)
[22:15:01] <eric_unterhausen> for a precision machine maker, any synchronous that is obvious with a measurement from a zygo is a problem
[22:15:08] <toastydeath> we took two air bearings and a big stainless pipe
[22:15:19] <toastydeath> just a relatively straight 3" pipe
[22:15:45] <toastydeath> stuck two air bushings on either end, and it turns out that if you pretend the pipe is a spindle
[22:15:55] <WalterN> woo
[22:16:05] <toastydeath> you wind up with a virtual straightedge you can use to guide a machine with
[22:16:06] <WalterN> tomorrow I get to go on a business field trip
[22:16:26] <WalterN> going to go look at a bunch of equipment
[22:16:41] <toastydeath> two gauges on either side and spin the pipe, and just use the A-B method of spindle measurement
[22:17:02] <toastydeath> straightedge accurate to your bearing's error
[22:17:18] <toastydeath> .00001" or better on just some old junk pipe
[22:17:27] <toastydeath> over 8 feet
[22:17:42] <eric_unterhausen> didn't that company get started selling moglice or something like it?
[22:17:48] <eric_unterhausen> Drew is a smart guy
[22:17:49] <toastydeath> New Way didn't
[22:18:04] <eric_unterhausen> I thought that's where "New Way" came from
[22:18:06] <toastydeath> drew started with in place machine reconditioning
[22:18:25] <toastydeath> bought the distributorship... rights? to moglice in north america
[22:19:01] <eric_unterhausen> Drew is a smart guy
[22:19:09] <toastydeath> then he started making air bearings, and he and Nick (the other owner of New Way, who i did NOT get along with) got together and manufactured air bearings
[22:19:14] <eric_unterhausen> and he thinks up some stuff that's really off the wall
[22:19:18] <toastydeath> the machine shop itself came from Nick, who inherited his dad's shop
[22:19:31] <eric_unterhausen> ok, I thought it was Drew's dad
[22:19:33] <toastydeath> what irritated me about new way is they didn't give drew any expertise
[22:19:47] <toastydeath> he comes up with some bizarre shit but you can see the application from forty miles away
[22:20:02] <toastydeath> he just has NO idea what he's doing a lot of the time, and the people around him DO, but don't help
[22:20:34] <WalterN> toastydeath: looking at employing a guy?
[22:20:37] <toastydeath> he's also willing to give it ago
[22:20:41] <toastydeath> * a go
[22:20:47] <toastydeath> and keep at it until it starts to work
[22:20:53] <toastydeath> WalterN, ?
[22:20:58] <eric_unterhausen> his youtube channel is a hoot
[22:21:18] <eric_unterhausen> but I don't know if the stuff I've seen is public
[22:21:45] <WalterN> toastydeath: donno... you are talking about a guy who does not know what his is doing and his application
[22:21:59] <toastydeath> wut
[22:22:21] <WalterN> thats what I'm trying to figure out
[22:22:35] <eric_unterhausen> toasty and I both know the guy
[22:22:38] <toastydeath> the guy i'm talking about is not a machinist but has a lot of good ideas
[22:22:55] <eric_unterhausen> probably too many good ideas :)
[22:22:55] <toastydeath> ideas that have (in my opinion) obvious and immediate utility as products
[22:23:14] <WalterN> ideas are cheap, implementing them isnt
[22:23:17] <toastydeath> what he doesn't have is machining or engineering expertise
[22:23:43] <eric_unterhausen> I think he's getting better about that
[22:23:51] <toastydeath> and so he bangs his head against the wall on projects that would be done SO quickly otherwise
[22:24:01] <toastydeath> just because he can't get support from inside the company
[22:24:14] <WalterN> so why dosent he fix it?
[22:24:39] <toastydeath> if "fixing it" in a medium sized business were that simple, you'd be able to sell a book and make a few million as a consultant
[22:25:21] <WalterN> http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Shop-Trade-Secrets-Manufacturing/dp/0831134771/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388722121&sr=8-1
[22:25:27] <WalterN> is what I mean by fixing it
[22:25:41] <toastydeath> because it's not that simple
[22:25:44] <WalterN> if he does not know how to do things, that book will help a lot
[22:26:24] <toastydeath> he has all the time and books on machining in the world
[22:26:48] <toastydeath> and that's not the same as having a toolmaker with 40 years of experience helping you
[22:27:04] <toastydeath> of which new way employs several
[22:27:39] <WalterN> so whats the problem? if you have an idea, and knowledge of how to make stuff...
[22:27:47] <toastydeath> that works for a single shop
[22:27:54] <toastydeath> single-man shop
[22:28:10] <eric_unterhausen> I didn't know he made 3 vids in our lab
[22:28:17] <WalterN> I'm so confused
[22:29:03] <WalterN> also, I need to shave sometime tonight
[22:30:02] <eric_unterhausen> my software wasn't photogenic enough to make it into the video
[22:34:39] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[22:35:12] <eric_unterhausen> http://youtu.be/uT2yjUo0hXc I didn't get a credit
[22:35:37] <eric_unterhausen> that's ok, ted had to write the report
[22:36:00] <eric_unterhausen> I love that vacuum air bearing, he was showing it floating upside-down at a conference
[22:36:11] <toastydeath> he wants those to happen so bad
[22:36:35] <toastydeath> it's not going to, but he wants it to
[22:36:55] <eric_unterhausen> I also like the free-form air bearings
[22:40:58] <toastydeath> free form air bearings?
[22:41:22] <eric_unterhausen> weirdly shaped bearings
[22:41:27] <toastydeath> ...for what
[22:41:28] <eric_unterhausen> like for paper guiding
[22:41:31] <toastydeath> Ohhhhh
[22:41:38] <toastydeath> I thought about that the other day
[22:41:54] <toastydeath> What if you did a water bearing for like, a grinder
[22:41:58] <toastydeath> or an air bearing for a bandsaw
[22:42:02] <toastydeath> you could put the crown on the bearing
[22:42:08] <toastydeath> as usual, drew has obviously beaten me to it
[23:46:20] <Mr_Mayhem> I saw someone at a japanese research place move paper using linear electrostatic motor. They move small particles too.
[23:50:00] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.aml.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/research/espf/espf_e.html
[23:50:17] <Mr_Mayhem> quicktime video in upper right corner of that page.
[23:50:47] <Mr_Mayhem> Main page. http://www.aml.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/research/es_motor/es_motor_e.html
[23:51:16] <CaptHindsight> magic voodoo
[23:51:27] <Mr_Mayhem> hehe